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QLD Anti BIkie laws
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36749 posts
Sooooo, the premier of QLD has introduced a heap of new laws to run bikies out of QLD. He's also having a go at kiddly fidlers as well, but im less concerned with that. Hes effectively introducing long jail sentences for any bikie convicted of a crime and trying to get bail denied for almost all crimes committed by bikies.

I was slightly infuriated tonite watching Cando (a coalition politician who i thought actually seemed ok) trying to ride roughshod over the judicial system "because its what the people of qld want". He never asked me what I want? It seems he hasnt asked anyone in the judicial system either.

Can his new laws succeed? I was speaking to a lawyer friend over the weekend and she mentioned how embarassing it was for QLD lawyer types with what Cando is trying to do. Tony Fitzgerald has come out and panned the new laws saying they will never be allowed and then today a judge has stood up and said they won't try a case because Newman has effectively told the courts what the verdict of the case should be.

I was previously happy with the level of policing over bikies. Yes im sure they are committing crimes and getting away them, as long as these crimes dont affect jo q public, im fine with that. (ie they are fighting each other) Obviously the brawl down the coast that started this all was well out of control and those involved should be dealt with (within accordance of the law), including the idiots who turned up at the police station and tried to get their buddies out. But yer, im not sure all the additonal police attention is the best use of their resources. Pretty sure there are other gangs that dont ride motorbikes that are chomping at the bit to have all these bikies out of the way so they can take up all the business oportunities.

tl;dr, has campbell lost his mind? yes, i think so;
07:33pm 30/10/13 Permalink
system
Internet
--
07:33pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6336 posts
Now, now, Spook, these bikie laws, well, don't you worry about that. Goodness gracious, just you wait and see.
07:50pm 30/10/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18882 posts
we need someone to transport the durgs....
07:56pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Damo
Brisbane, Queensland
6683 posts
If you haven't read the info in the link I suggest you do. Scarier than you think.

http://www.guestlawyers.com.au/index.php/blog/are-you-a-vicious-lawless-associate.html
08:25pm 30/10/13 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7290 posts
haha dazhel :) qld coalition knobs do have a history of loving the mandatory sentencing.
08:33pm 30/10/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6458 posts
While they're at it, extend the laws to Blacks, Jews, Lesbians, Boy Scouts...

Really f*****g stupid IMO. What do they do, ask them "Are you a bikie"?
08:51pm 30/10/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
355 posts
maybe they can make the bikies wear something on their jacket that identifies them as bikes - like a yellow star or something
08:56pm 30/10/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
23562 posts
On the one hand some of the new laws look kind of scary but on the other I am wary of getting caught up in the media's' interpretation of the law.

The above link goes to some length to explain things, but only time will tell how these laws are applied. There are some really dumb things in there, like banning TVs in the bikie prisons and limiting visitation to something like one visit a week. How is psychologically torturing someone by taking away visitation and entertainment going to help them be normal people when they're eventually released?

What I think should happen is that they should use police work to find out who all the top guys are. Once they've done that, send in the forensic accountants to go over every f*****g number of their financial records. When they inevitably find that the top guys have been living well beyond their means charge them for every tax crime in the book and for whatever else that is found. Then again, maybe they've already tried that and it didn't work or something.

Or they could legalise drugs.
08:56pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36751 posts
On the one hand some of the new laws look kind of scary but on the other I am wary of getting caught up in the media's' interpretation of the law.


seems to be lots of law talking guys are coming forward to say these new laws are retarded and won't be able to be upheld or will be overturned by the courts.
09:00pm 30/10/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1562 posts
Putting idiot criminals in jail for longer = bad thing?

wat.jpg
09:05pm 30/10/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10784 posts
He's also having a go at kiddly fidlers as well, but im less concerned with that.


That's how Governments divide the public.
They target the unpopular minority groups with Laws that will ultimately be used on the majority. Have you seen the Laws Police will have for that upcoming G20 here ?

POLICE will be granted extra powers inside a "declared area" of inner city Brisbane stretching from South Bank, to Kelvin Grove, Bowen Hills, Fortitude Valley and Wooloongabba in a bid to stop the violent chaos that has crippled other G20 host cities.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/strip-searches-approved-in-massive-police-powers-boost-for-g20-forum-in-brisbane-cbd/story-fnihsrf2-1226703817810#

back to the bikies...
Bikies should have kicked out the wankers.
Now they have no Clubs.
No matter how tough you think you are you can never take on the Government and their security forces. Its hard to shed a tear for them but really, don't Police have enough Laws already ?

What happens if these Laws are used on say, CSG demonstration groups ?
Greenpeace demonstrating against Uranium mining ?
Unions ?

I have a muso friend that knows a few members of a certain northside group.
They are shattered, they were never into the drugs etc but knew about it.
They loved Bikes and were ex-military and enjoyed the mateship, Now the guys can only meet at BBQs
at least for the moment.

09:05pm 30/10/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
23563 posts
I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to worry about from these new laws.
09:06pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1461 posts
Seems F***head Newman pines for a return to the days of the Police State that existed whilst Joh was Premier.
09:11pm 30/10/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1563 posts
I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to worry about from these new laws.

+1
09:18pm 30/10/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
357 posts
I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to worry about from these new laws.


How quickly we forget the lessons of the past



First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
09:25pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4718 posts
but only time will tell how these laws are applied


not really, 58 year old man, arrested and refused bail, he didn't leave an establishment when told to, when the police arrived he was wearing a belt buckle associated with a bikie gang.. he's facing 15 years.

this was like, 2 days after the new laws came into force.
09:27pm 30/10/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
23566 posts
I can't believe that even after a post showing concern about the new laws that people would take my post seriously. I know sarcasm can be hard on the internet but c'mon son. I guess I probably should have quoted arkter because it was him I was making fun of.

not really, 58 year old man, arrested and refused bail, he didn't leave an establishment when told to, when the police arrived he was wearing a belt buckle associated with a bikie gang.. he's facing 15 years.
Got a link for this? Not doubting you but I'd just like to read about it.
09:31pm 30/10/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
358 posts
i also should have quoted the +1 sorry
09:36pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7040 posts
09:36pm 30/10/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
23567 posts
Sir, you are wearing a prohibited item, please come with us.

Spoiler:
yes I know he was also drunk and refusing to leave a licensed premises but come on, refused bail for a belt buckle.
09:44pm 30/10/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20708 posts
These laws are outrageous and a complete violation of basic criminal principals and the separation of powers. I have given Campbell and my MP a fair earful about it. I am very pissed off. Mind you Labor passed similar intended laws in their last term. They are both as bad as each other.

These new laws will achieve nothing. Do they think those bikies handing in their colours are all going to uni and getting jobs as architects and nurses? There is also a toothfairy.
09:45pm 30/10/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
179 posts
I think bikies are less dangerous than politicians.

How much money have you given to bikies lately?
09:46pm 30/10/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2510 posts
Bikie laws too stupid for words.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/police-warned-to-enforce-campbell-newmans-new-bikie-laws-or-face-being-fired/story-fnihsrf2-1226743468432

TWO police officers have been left red-faced after confusing a man's Sons of Anarchy T-shirt with a real bikie gang's patch in Queensland. Police saw the man's shirt, showing the insignia of the fictitious bikie gang in the popular US TV drama, during a protest at Emerald, where state cabinet is meeting. Two officers walked over and began talking to him about it but it soon dawned on them that he was just a fan of the TV show, and not a hardened bikie crim. After awkward laughter, the officers apologised and left him alone.


Case in point.

10:36pm 30/10/13 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3330 posts
So then, who is a Vicious Lawless Associate?

A person is deemed to be a vicious lawless associate[4] if the following three conditions are satisfied:

1. The person commits a declared offence.

....dangerous operation of a motor vehicle; receiving tainted property and possessing dangerous drugs....
No wonder Spook is worried.

Is tainted property, property that has come in contact with someones taint? Seems like more homophobic laws from the religious nut jobs in the Qld Liberal party!
10:47pm 30/10/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
363 posts
lets meet Billy

Billy is a bit silly. He loves driving around in his car listening to CDs while stoned. Unfortunately one of the CDs he has was stolen by Billy's mate as a birthday present to billy. Thanks mate!

But dont worry the cops just pulled Billy over because when he drives stoned he really is a terrible driver - like going 30 in a 60 zone - and they noticed a bag a weed in the car and the stolen CD too. Poor billy.

But dont worry because of these three things Billy is now a Vicious Lawless Associate and so is going to go to Jail for 15 years where he will learn a new profession from his new friends - being a lawless bikie

good for you Billy.
11:04pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10181 posts
These laws are outrageous and a complete violation of basic criminal principals and the separation of powers. I have given Campbell and my MP a fair earful about it.

My major issue with this is you spoke to Campbell and he listened ... I have had no such opportunity.

Your ability to talk to him some may claim is link to family connections and party donations ... That there ain't democracy.
11:12pm 30/10/13 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
22348 posts
Just remember people. YOU voted for them.
12:54am 31/10/13 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
130 posts
Putting idiot criminals in jail for longer = bad thing? wat.jpg

Jebus Christ, never stops being mind-boggling when somebody uses what amounts to "well it's not me, so go for gold!" logic, in the case of draconian laws. Usually comes from the same type of people who'd go bats*** crazy if legislation was ever introduced that actually impacted them in some way.
01:00am 31/10/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20710 posts
Your ability to talk to him some may claim is link to family connections and party donations ... That there ain't democracy.


it was at a BBQ at which 100 other people attended. i waited in the far queue like every other mug, plus I wrote him a letter (two actually which I have received no response yet). Joe public can do either of these things.

Don't think I am anything special to him. To Campbell I am just another s***bag civil libertarian.
01:11am 31/10/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4444 posts
these laws are fine, I think they should also been made to wear a yellow star to when ever they are in public, and any businesses would have big letters on the front denoting it bikie

after all, it worked in the past


but jokes aside, the AG is either too young, unskilled, or too stupid but these laws are a joke, and the bigger joke comes from the support that is given to JB by lil joh, with the attacks on the system, but no attempt to see how the system is working or how it is not working,


also, in the next election, labor comes to power because the sheep vote out the LNP and QLD's cant seem to be bothered learning more than two parties
03:51am 31/10/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
513 posts
Nice.

Less dents under my Range Rover.
09:03am 31/10/13 Permalink
BOOST
Brisbane, Queensland
612 posts
Cops should get better at using the existing laws. Don't have Newman make up new bulls*** laws because they can't get the job done.
09:28am 31/10/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2511 posts
10:39am 31/10/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
517 posts
Look at that tough mother f***** drinking that milk.

Avatarworthy.
11:43am 31/10/13 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2167 posts
Look at that tough mother f***** drinking that milk.Avatarworthy.


yeahhh... i still wouldn't wanna get on the wrong side of his fist..

edit: on topic: if that link about the interpretation is correct, I feel for you all.
12:10pm 31/10/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10785 posts
Being tough is raising a Family and holding down a job, not riding a motorbike in a Halloween costume in some kind of forever-teenager fantasy.

breaking up these gangs might be the best thing that ever happened to some of these guys.

04:17pm 31/10/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1564 posts
Being tough is raising a Family and holding down a job, not riding a motorbike in a Halloween costume in some kind of forever-teenager fantasy.

breaking up these gangs might be the best thing that ever happened to some of these guys.


That's an awesome way of looking at it.
04:36pm 31/10/13 Permalink
nings
Gold Coast, Queensland
56 posts
Add another five years for face tats, 3 years for bum bags.
06:01pm 31/10/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
533 posts
Add another five years for face tats, 3 years for bum bags.

Is it cool to wear your bumbag forward ways?
06:11pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Ha
278 posts
is there absolutely anything stopping these people from swapping their kuttes for tracksuits, calling themselves a running club (complete with running club hq) and completely negating all of these retarded laws?

arkter, don't post anymore itt, you're going to be really embarrassed about it later on in life when you come to understand things like an adult with a functioning brain.
06:26pm 31/10/13 Permalink
fade
Brisbane, Queensland
7469 posts
I'm back. I thought this topic would have borne more rapturous debate.

The laws are inimical to liberal democracy. The AG is under-qualified to be the first law officer. From what I am told, the 'conveyancer' nickname being given to him is apt.

The attacks on the judiciary are plain wrong. The Premier and AG are on a fools' errand if they think they can get the best of some of the finest advocates in the state.

Also, Fryberg J's nickname among some parts of the profession is Mad King George (in reference to his first name and the fact that you never know what you're going to get in his courtroom - he's brilliant, but mad as a cut snake). He is retiring next month when he reaches the statutory age of 70 so he has obviously taken the opportunity to stand up for the independence of the judiciary.
06:39pm 31/10/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4593 posts
Look at that tough mother f***** drinking that milk.

And with a straw through the side, big girl! (Bikies aren't tech savy enough to track me down are they?)

Tony Fitzgerald has a good say about it
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion-tony-fitzgeralds-verdict-on-the-tough-newman-government-law-and-order-crackdown/story-e6frg6n6-1226747871408

07:09pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Cheez
Brisbane, Queensland
864 posts
I haven't looked into these laws or anything so don't blame me for the following but this happened today to a friend of my brothers. He was in a barber shop getting a hair cut and when he was finished got taken outside by 3 cops who requested to take his shirt off so they could take pics of his tats (full sleeves, chest and back.) He is not club affiliated but rides a bike, he did not have his bike with him but they ran his car plates to find that he owned more than one bike (road and a trail), he then made some comment about the fact that the cops were in a group of 3 riding bikes and all 3 had fanny packs which under this new scheme is not allowed. They then let him go with a warning and said they will look into his situation regarding tats and his bike more closely.

So can they abuse these new rules just to enforce them on everyone else?
07:29pm 31/10/13 Permalink
nings
Gold Coast, Queensland
59 posts
Is it cool to wear your bumbag forward ways?

make that 10 years.
07:31pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1463 posts
Newman must be a Joh love-child.
07:32pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36753 posts
was waiting for your opinion fade <3
10:04pm 31/10/13 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
10767 posts
I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to worry about from these new laws.


“The axiom 'Honest men have nothing to fear from the police' is currently under review by the Axioms Appeal Board”. — Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms
10:11pm 31/10/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20714 posts
The problem with this Act is that it reverses the onus of proof on a criminal charge. Criminal law jurisprudence is that the onus of proving guilt should always rest on the State.

However with the Anti-Bikie Law section 5 provides

Meaning of of vicious lawless associate
(1) For this Act, a person is a vicious lawless associate if the person—
(a) commits a declared offence; and
(b) at the time the offence is committed, or during the course of the commission of the offence, is a participant in the affairs of an association (relevant association);
and
(c) did or omitted to do the act that constitutes the declared offence for the purposes of, or in the course of participating in the affairs of, the relevant association.

(2) However, a person is not a vicious lawless associate if the person proves that the relevant association is not an association that has, as 1 of its purposes, the purpose of engaging in, or conspiring to engage in, declared offences.


i.e. anyone caught committing an offence and who is known to associate with other people in any form of association is presumed to be a vicious lawless associate until they can prove, that their association does not have a criminal objective.

This law is bad, it can be abused by the State to suit its own purposes.
10:23pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36754 posts
infi <3

i actually just got a boner coz we agreed on something.

if only it happened more often, because i like getting boners.
10:27pm 31/10/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20715 posts
if only it happened more often, because i like getting boners.


you need to buy an electrified probe.
10:33pm 31/10/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
384 posts
Gruen Planet had a bit of a chat about this issue in the last ep. One of the panel said something rather interesting which was: when you get a conservative government come into office and the economy is in the dumps (i dont think our economy is that bad) they often look for some way to divert attention to something else.

The best thing to divert attention is with a good war: so now we have The War on Bikies

Also it was pointed out that in actual crime figures Bikies only account for around 0.6% of all crime in QLD.
11:23pm 31/10/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
160 posts
The problem with this Act is that it reverses the onus of proof on a criminal charge. Criminal law jurisprudence is that the onus of proving guilt should always rest on the State.


The crown still has to prove sub (1)(a)(b) and (c). The reverse onus is often used. Try for example the presumption of possession if drugs are found in a house you are in control of.

Pretty stupid comment really. The standard of proof for proving sub (a),(b) and (c) are very, very high. For example, how would you prove that they were doing it in the course of participating in the organisation.

People shouldn't jump the gun and try to be lawyers when they have no clue.
11:37pm 31/10/13 Permalink
DeadlyDav0
Brisbane, Queensland
4230 posts
Look at that tough mother f***** drinking that milk.

Musashi product placement. Looks to be a P30. Lightweight.
11:46pm 31/10/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36756 posts
lols, sif old mate isnt on the roids already
11:47pm 31/10/13 Permalink
DeadlyDav0
Brisbane, Queensland
4231 posts
...and stockpiles of DMAA
11:51pm 31/10/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20716 posts
proving (b) and (c) would be piece of piss because the definitions are so broad.

(b) read the extremely broad definition of "association"

(c) the prosecution would simply have to prove that the associates were in the vicinity of each other.

And I am a lawyer (not that you would have to be to read this Act). And Justice Fryberg and Tony Fitzgerald voiced similar concerns .

Also, a 15 year jail term no parole for affray, or low level distribution? The whole Act is completely f***ed.
11:54pm 31/10/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
3372 posts
i should have been carrying that night, i don't take kindly to getting mugged off by some scum c****.

they should just release the cctv and let the media decide

not being mean, but i should have bashed him good for coming up on me like that.

last edited by trillion at 00:20:24 01/Nov/13

last edited by trillion at 00:22:20 01/Nov/13
12:14am 01/11/13 Permalink
fade
Brisbane, Queensland
7470 posts
Lol @ tdog. What's the bet he is a second year law student or similar? I recommend he reads Bingham's "Rule of Law".

Recently retired Judge of Appeal Chesterman also raised his concerns about this law and the 'anti-Fardon' legislation.

Any criminal law which reverses the onus of proof is dangerous. If the state with its wealth of resources cannot lead sufficient evidence to establish its allegations then the case ought to fail . Something, something, innocent till proven guilty.

What's more, this legislation goes further than that - mandatory sentences removes the court's ability to take relevant factors into account when determining sentencing. Past experience invariably demonstrates that mandatory sentencing leads to unjust outcomes.

And what is with the word 'vicious'? It is unnecessary and has the potential to prejudice juries and the public against accused.
07:41am 01/11/13 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4719 posts
And what is with the word 'vicious'? It is unnecessary and has the potential to prejudice juries and the public against accused.


Its almost like its deliberate...

when you get a conservative government come into office and the economy is in the dumps (i dont think our economy is that bad) they often look for some way to divert attention to something else.


I wonder why they targeted bikies? From what I recall, the bikies normally have deals with the local popo, (unlike most other gangs who typically operate underground). So i doubt its anything the police have requested. Considering they can get fired for not enforcing the bikie laws.

Interesting that the only public servants that Newman actually increased in numbers were the police, This to me sounds like a move more targeted towards the police than Bikies. An attempt to separate their external revenue streams and consolidate his power over the police? For a conservative government i guess this kinda makes sense.
02:43pm 01/11/13 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37488 posts
Gruen Planet had a bit of a chat about this issue in the last ep. One of the panel said something rather interesting which was: when you get a conservative government come into office and the economy is in the dumps (i dont think our economy is that bad) they often look for some way to divert attention to something else.
I suspect this was intended to be a tiny little thing that they thought would be quietly applauded by us law-lovin' Queenslanders and would just be noted as a mildly positive change.

Unfortunately for them I think the civil libertarians (rightfully) kicked it into high gear and now it has turned into a hot button issue that they have to vigorously defend.

Maybe they just watched Sons of Anarchy or something
02:55pm 01/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
161 posts
The problem with this Act is that it reverses the onus of proof on a criminal charge. Criminal law jurisprudence is that the onus of proving guilt should always rest on the State.


Don't they have to prove subs (a),(b) and (c) before the reverse onus applies?

Looking at them, they seem quite hard to prove. Ie Is a participant and was doing the crime furthering the organisation....

Seems like a pretty fair law to me.
03:47pm 01/11/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20717 posts
If you commit the "declared crime" with an "association", the association is deemed to be criminal in nature and thus subject to mandatory sentencing unless you can prove you are not a criminal association..

How is that fair?
04:07pm 01/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4449 posts
If you commit the "declared crime" with an "association", the association is deemed to be criminal in nature and thus subject to mandatory sentencing unless you can prove you are not a criminal association..How is that fair?



and to add to that, you go to a club in another state, have some drinks with mates, then return, you face arrest too, the laws are a joke

and i remember the days when infi supported the LNP come hell or high water
04:13pm 01/11/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
391 posts
id like to see all the employees of a corporation that has broken the law, for whatever reason, prosecuted under this law for 15 years from the CEO right down to the front desk people to the guy that shows you where to park your car in the corporate garage

15 years for association!
04:41pm 01/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4450 posts
QPS would like you to call them before riding your motorbike to avoid getting hassled by the poh poh
05:44pm 01/11/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
3374 posts
you want to know where the Libtards who profited from it all live? they're all dead, sorry.

look's like you'll have to find some other way to rape tax out of the land

last edited by trillion at 17:57:01 01/Nov/13
05:55pm 01/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
180 posts
You use electrified probes to get a boner?
06:10pm 01/11/13 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4542 posts
Just to echo a few others ..... as if this wont be exploited to f*** over the average joe.
08:24pm 01/11/13 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
588 posts
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...


I would love for the government to come for the communists, socialists and trade unionists. Extremists that need to go.
08:28pm 01/11/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
396 posts
I would love for the government to come for the communists, socialists and trade unionists. Extremists that need to go.


isnt that a little extreme? oh i see what you are saying now

byebye
08:32pm 01/11/13 Permalink
Damo
Brisbane, Queensland
6684 posts
09:02pm 01/11/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4599 posts
This is gonna get interesting.
11:09pm 01/11/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
399 posts
i know what the smart bikie gang should do - they should rename themselves The Sons of Anarchy. And when they get busted by the cops they can be all "what this? nah mate its a TV show u duffer"
12:52am 02/11/13 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
121 posts
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02:58am 02/11/13 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
589 posts
Another toothless youtube video from anonymous that will lead to nothing. I bet the QLD gov are terrified.
03:24am 02/11/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
3375 posts
don't bring a knife or a gun to a good old fashioned white knuckle sandwich show
10:13am 02/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10790 posts
If Bikies are so dangerous how come no Police Officer has so far been injured arresting them ?
It could be that the Bikies have been told not to resist and to wait for the Court challenges, but still, kind of surprising.
Of course theres been plenty of claims made in the Media about threats but so far, nothing.

Don't stop with the crazy bikie laws how about this one ?

A PHONE line to dob in hoons is set to be established in Brisbane's state electorates as the toughest anti-hooning laws in Australian history took effect in Queensland yesterday.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/east/hoonwatch-hotline-to-be-rolled-out-across-brisbane-electorates/story-fni9r0lo-1226751507970

12:02pm 02/11/13 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
141 posts
Methinks Newman is taking somewhat of a risk in declaring war on packs of lawless bikies, being that they are reputed to have access to illegal weaponry. I'm genuinely curious as to why none of these chaps have made a move on him.
01:51pm 02/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4454 posts
Methinks Newman is taking somewhat of a risk in declaring war on packs of lawless bikies, being that they are reputed to have access to illegal weaponry. I'm genuinely curious as to why none of these chaps have made a move on him.



it could be the long game, make a move on him, it only re-enforces there is an issue.
dont make a move on him, and wait till they make plain stupid moves like raiding the veterans MCC (for rapport building according to the QPS) slowly get the public off side

he gets voted out in just over a years time, then target slowly all of his little business holdings scattered all over the shop, make him broke
02:16pm 02/11/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18893 posts
Newman is gotham's white knight
02:26pm 02/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
165 posts
If you're lawyers you should spend some more time learning how to interpret legislation.

You are entitled to your opinion but I really, really don't think that 'Justice Fryberg doesn't like these laws' and 'Tony Fitzgerald doesn't like them' are effective legal arguments. For you to claim to be a lawyer and then quote that rubbish it casts doubt on your claim.

Back to law school - look at the elements :

a) Prescribed offence? - dude is found with a bag of weed - satisfied.

b) Is a participant in the affairs of the association? Say, the treasurer of the organisation - satisfied. This could be difficult to prove for street or non badged members.

c) Committed the act for THE PURPOSES OFor IN THE COURSE OF participating in the affairs of the organisation - this is where it falls down.

Now, of course if the treasurer bikie gets some weed from the president and gets busted then and there, the laws apply. That's the point of the laws. They're in a criminal gang committing offences. They get punished.

But what if it's a non badged member, who has some weed at home and has very little contact with other members?

First, it will be difficult to prove he was a participant.. that may rely on some really shaky phone intercept evidence or something, or photographs of him hanging out with other members.

Secondly, it will be extremely difficult to prove he committed the offence for the purposes of participating or in the course of participating in affairs of the organisation. He committed the offence for the purposes of getting high in his own home. Unless smoking weed was some kind of initiation then it's simply not provable.

It's not committed the offence 'whilst' being a member, it committing the offence for the purposes of participating or in the course of participating.

As I said above, if some bikies and driving around as part of the gang and dealing drugs etc or whatever, then they'll get caught by the legislation. Deal with it. That's what it's designed to do.

But I really don't accept the proposition this is some super loose section which anyone riding a bike can be caught under.

Remember, this needs to be proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. So the evidence needs to be rock solid.

The reason Fryberg etc have an issue is due to a) the reduction of judicial discretion and b) invasive police powers.
10:46am 03/11/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
3376 posts
pfft legal system, bunch of hard up wankers
11:10am 03/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4462 posts
If you're lawyers you should spend some more time learning how to interpret legislation.You are entitled to your opinion but I really, really don't think that 'Justice Fryberg doesn't like these laws' and 'Tony Fitzgerald doesn't like them' are effective legal arguments. For you to claim to be a lawyer and then quote that rubbish it casts doubt on your claim.Back to law school - look at the elements :a) Prescribed offence? - dude is found with a bag of weed - satisfied.b) Is a participant in the affairs of the association? Say, the treasurer of the organisation - satisfied. This could be difficult to prove for street or non badged members.c) Committed the act for THE PURPOSES OFor IN THE COURSE OF participating in the affairs of the organisation - this is where it falls down.Now, of course if the treasurer bikie gets some weed from the president and gets busted then and there, the laws apply. That's the point of the laws. They're in a criminal gang committing offences. They get punished.But what if it's a non badged member, who has some weed at home and has very little contact with other members?First, it will be difficult to prove he was a participant.. that may rely on some really shaky phone intercept evidence or something, or photographs of him hanging out with other members.Secondly, it will be extremely difficult to prove he committed the offence for the purposes of participating or in the course of participating in affairs of the organisation. He committed the offence for the purposes of getting high in his own home. Unless smoking weed was some kind of initiation then it's simply not provable.It's not committed the offence 'whilst' being a member, it committing the offence for the purposes of participating or in the course of participating. As I said above, if some bikies and driving around as part of the gang and dealing drugs etc or whatever, then they'll get caught by the legislation. Deal with it. That's what it's designed to do.But I really don't accept the proposition this is some super loose section which anyone riding a bike can be caught under. Remember, this needs to be proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. So the evidence needs to be rock solid. The reason Fryberg etc have an issue is due to a) the reduction of judicial discretion and b) invasive police powers.


while most of what you said is correct, the issue isn't that they dont have to prove you're a member of a club, infact you have to prove BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that you are not a member of a club, and you can be done for an extra 15 years,
add to that in theory if you are caught on tape having a drink with two mate's in another state who are members of a bike gang, you could also be arrested,

that my friend is why people are upset,
01:04pm 03/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
166 posts
Copious, you're simply wrong. The way the section works is that to be labelled a vicious lawless associate they crown must prove beyond reasonable doubt subsections (a),(b) and (c).

It doesn't specify the standard of proof and it hasn't been tested but I assume it's of the usual criminal standard.

There is nothing in the section which creates a reverse onus.

Subsection (2) operates as a defence to sub (1), which, I'm guessing, would have to be proven on the balance of probabilities like any other criminal defence.

The problem with these debates is 99% of the populace doesn't know how to interpret legislation so we get a bunch of ning nings harping on about reverse onuses etc when it really has no relevance. Even apparent lawyers have trouble interpreting it, as we've seen, and are willing to rely on the word of Tony Fitzgerald instead of using their brains. I wonder if Mr Fitzgerald writes all of their advices.

The main issue is it takes the discretion away from judges in terms of sentencing and attempts to usurp the freedom of the judiciary to sentence appropriately.

Have a look at the NSW consorting laws!!!! 10000% more ridiculous than here - QLD criminals have it easy, still.
08:05pm 03/11/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1137 posts
TDog,

I'm not having ago in any way, and I concur that statutory interpretation is difficult job but I would point you to the austlii explanatory notes of the billhere

With particular attention to the following:
Clause 5 sets out the associate laws.

Subclause (2) provides a defence to a person being found to be a vicious lawless
associate. The legal onus (balance of probabilities) is upon the defendant to prove that
the relevant association is an association whose members do not have as their
purpose, or one of their purposes, engaging in, or conspiring to engage in, declared
offences.


I don't know loads about criminal law but I do know that beyond reasonable doubt and balance of probabilities are terms of trade that specify a standard of proof.

Clause 6 is an evidentiary aid and provides a rebuttable presumption. A person will be
presumed to an officer bearer of the relevant association where the person has
asserted, declared or advertised that he or she is an office bearer, or where a person is
commonly treated by other persons who participate in the association's affairs as an
office bearer. Where such evidence is before the court, the defendant will bear the
legal onus of proving they were not an officer bearer of the relevant association at the
time of committing the offence


You can rebut the presumption but you do need to, the crown doesn't have to establish you are an officer of an association.

How it plays out exactly well that's for the courts to decide, but explanatory memoranda are a useful guide to parliaments legislative intention.
08:31pm 03/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14548 posts
Even if the Law may not be used incorrectly it shouldn't even have the capacity to be used incorrectly.

This is what people are trying to say. It is too broad and has enough holes in it that it has the capacity to be used incorrectly and therefore needs to be changed.

10:12pm 03/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
167 posts
@tollazor - so if a law has the capacity to be used incorrectly, it should be changed?

Like this one?......

PPRA S 29 Searching persons without warrant

(1) A police officer who reasonably suspects any of the prescribed circumstances for searching a person without a warrant exist may, without a warrant, do any of the following—

(a) stop and detain a person;
(b) search the person and anything in the person's possession for anything relevant to the circumstances for which the person is detained.

The prescribed circumstances for searching a person without a warrant are as follows—

(a) the person has something that may be—
(i) a weapon, knife or explosive the person may not lawfully possess, or another thing that the person is prohibited from possessing under a domestic violence order or an interstate domestic violence order; or
(ii) an unlawful dangerous drug; or
(iii) stolen property; or
(iv) unlawfully obtained property; or
(v) tainted property; or

etc etc

So if a police officer 'reasonably suspects' you have drugs, they can search you?? OMFG - OUTRAGE

A police officer once searched me and I questioned his suspicion, or lack thereof, that I was in possession of drugs.

He stated "Well if I find something, I would have had reasonable suspicion, wouldn't I?."

The most abused law in history. A friend who is a cop told me that simply being in the valley means he can have such a suspicion.

And guess what happens when you say no?

But yes, it has potential for abuse, so lets change it, immediately. This can affect average citizens and is an absolute outrage.
11:07pm 03/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14550 posts
Yeah, it should be.
11:20pm 03/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
200 posts
This is like watching deaf people dance.
11:34pm 03/11/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20721 posts
Difference is the VLAD laws result in mandatory 15 years jail TDog. Jeez you are dense.
11:47pm 03/11/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
414 posts
if a cop stops you and tries to search you and finds nothing the cop should lose 10xp

if they do lose xp with each failed search they might be more careful in future
11:50pm 03/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
554 posts
Even if the Law may not be used incorrectly it shouldn't even have the capacity to be used incorrectly.

This is what people are trying to say. It is too broad and has enough holes in it that it has the capacity to be used incorrectly and therefore needs to be changed.

I refer to this as grey laws. The same thing applies to car enthusiasts now.

Hmm, what else.. Oh! National Security lol!
09:03am 04/11/13 Permalink
BOOST
Brisbane, Queensland
616 posts
nother toothless youtube video from anonymous that will lead to nothing. I bet the QLD gov are terrified.


Newman better watch out, he's gonna get soooo many pizza deliveries today! That'll show him
10:01am 04/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10796 posts
ACA showed the footage from the Police Cameras including leading up to the brawl.

The Cops did a very good job of taking control of the situation.
They were hopelessly outnumbered but stood their ground eventually getting control of the situation, though I suspect the bikies weren't keen to attack the police because of all the cameras around that would have easily picked them out.

Still, a good job done by the cops.

One gang appeared to be almost all mediteranean guys and the other gang were all white. and of course it was all over .................. a girl, lolz
08:00pm 05/11/13 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4544 posts
So if my coach or team mate deals a bit of pot on the side and some of the guys buying are players or board members does that make my local football club a criminal organization?
03:27am 06/11/13 Permalink
Nakor
Brisbane, Queensland
3180 posts
So if my coach or team mate deals a bit of pot on the side and some of the guys buying are players or board members does that make my local football club a criminal organization?


It would certainly make it hard for you to prove that it isn't
08:28am 06/11/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20726 posts
actually, you have to prove that you aren't a criminal organisation.
11:49am 06/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14544 posts
Mandatory sentencing is a very bad idea, we have a clear process to deal with inappropriate sentences through the various appellate courts.

Is it all possible to have a normal, moderate Government in this f*****g state? Is that too much to ask?
12:00pm 06/11/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1125 posts
QLD doesn't have a senate so it can pass any wacky laws they want to.

I think they need to bring back the upper hosue.

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/explore/education/factsheets/papers/paper01_abolitionOfTheUpperHouse.pdf
12:06pm 06/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10797 posts
12:44pm 06/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
170 posts
actually, you have to prove that you aren't a criminal organisation.


Can you read?

The onus lies on the crown to prove subsection (1) beyond a reasonable doubt.

Subsection (2) provides an optional defence.

Nothing in the section has the effect of automatically proving sub 1 if sub 2 is not proven.

The following section in the act provides a presumption for 'officers' of the organisation that if they 'hold themselves out to be officers,' (by wearing 'IM THE PRESIDENT' badge) they are presumed to be officers - it makes it easier for the crown to prove the 'is in an organisation' element.

Do you understand how it works now?

There's no magical automatic branding as a vicious lawless associate.
05:12pm 06/11/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20728 posts
so if you commit an affray as a junior member of any association you get 15 years unless you prove you are not a criminal oprganisation.

if you get into a brawl at the soccer with your mates and are wearing team jersies this should get you 15 years. what a joke of a law.
05:35pm 06/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
211 posts
QLD doesn't have a senate so it can pass any wacky laws they want to.I think they need to bring back the upper hosue.https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/explore/education/factsheets/papers/paper01_abolitionOfTheUpperHouse.pdf


I love Queensland and their wacky Laws.

They're so wacky.
06:05pm 06/11/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
437 posts
u mean like these naughty soccer lads?

06:06pm 06/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
212 posts
Nah probably more Techno Viking.
He could very well be from Queensland...


06:17pm 06/11/13 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
22372 posts
Better watch out if you're in RACQ, I heard on the radio it's the biggest club in queensland. You'll all get done for being in a "gang". Better take all the RACQ stickers off your cars people.
06:21pm 06/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
213 posts
May as well take all the rainbow ones off too while your at it.
06:25pm 06/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4476 posts
Can you read?The onus lies on the crown to prove subsection (1) beyond a reasonable doubt.Subsection (2) provides an optional defence.Nothing in the section has the effect of automatically proving sub 1 if sub 2 is not proven.The following section in the act provides a presumption for 'officers' of the organisation that if they 'hold themselves out to be officers,' (by wearing 'IM THE PRESIDENT' badge) they are presumed to be officers - it makes it easier for the crown to prove the 'is in an organisation' element.Do you understand how it works now?There's no magical automatic branding as a vicious lawless associate.



er no, you only have to be suspected of being a member of a club or gang that has criminal links
they dont have to prove youre a member, (because even hanging around them seems to be grounds enough)
the club you are involved in, regardless of however large, or it's structure just has to have a criminal element (I'll touch on that in a sec)
they dont have to prove you have knowledge of the goings on in the club to be charged on a completing unrelated event, and you can cop 15 years for a minor offence

now some of these club that have been actively targeted are huge! and the bulk of the members are okay, they just look scary, yes there are elements that do wrong, but to tar the whole group in a law that is so vague is scary.
in theory any member of any club is at risk, and seeing that the police have no reason to release any lists, members my honestly be unaware of any criminal elements.

Now here is an unlikely event, that should highlight the issue at hand
I'm a member of a club, with over 5000 members, it's the SES, we have a uniform, we are visible, but outside of any clothes that bare the patch, we blend in with the general public
now, if the F.N.Q region has an issue with members in the carnis depot dealing in drugs, hiding meth in sandbags and have a huge drug ring happening, and the police are still in an observing mode, and collecting data, a member from brisbane could be busted for a little weed, and face an extra 15 years!
to make it worse, after the big drug bust, I move down south, still keen to hang out with normal non crim SES people I join down there, there are photos of me in the paper rescuing baby goats or some s***, and in that photo, there I am in my SES uniform, with 3 other people (who had nothing to do with any criminal activities) I return to QLD cause a family member dies, and I can be arrested

now, the onus of proof, well, they can proof I hung out with a club, that in QLD was linked to criminal activities.
they couldn't prove I had anything to do with that side of the SES, but I still face jail time
they dont have to prove I did anything wrong, just that I was linked to people, and that is wrong, this isn't the kevin bacon theory of crime
06:35pm 06/11/13 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7855 posts
These gangs and their stand over tactics have no place in a modern society...

- Jack Dempsey

Is he talking about the police?
07:13pm 06/11/13 Permalink
Damo
Brisbane, Queensland
6696 posts
10:30pm 06/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
223 posts
He might have looked more like a bikie than a dike.

Learn to spell.
11:05pm 06/11/13 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10140 posts
Bikies need to copy the smart kids


...apparently


:/
12:21am 07/11/13 Permalink
Damo
Brisbane, Queensland
6703 posts
04:34pm 10/11/13 Permalink
Pandaemonean
Queensland
58 posts
Bikers should be executed on the street by special police assassination squads.
08:12pm 10/11/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
3403 posts
a hefty revision to these reforms should be outlawing Cambies fleet of hella expensive Lemon donger bikes that Hue danced his booty off to
08:29pm 10/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
179 posts
@ copious - mate you are just plain wrong - or trolling badly - either way, it's not just any 'club' it's a prescribed club, which needs to be added to the regulations by the minister.

The fact is, you are blowing the legislation out of proportion and completely misinterpreting it - it is not as draconian as you say it is.

What you have proven is what kind of interpretation idiot laymen can come to ie the general public and the media and that can perhaps explain the knee-jerk reaction.
11:47am 11/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10803 posts
03:08pm 11/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4504 posts
@ copious - mate you are just plain wrong - or trolling badly - either way, it's not just any 'club' it's a prescribed club, which needs to be added to the regulations by the minister.The fact is, you are blowing the legislation out of proportion and completely misinterpreting it - it is not as draconian as you say it is.What you have proven is what kind of interpretation idiot laymen can come to ie the general public and the media and that can perhaps explain the knee-jerk reaction.



does anyone have access to this list?,
also, it is true that if you hang with members of a "prescribed" club in another state, you face arrest when you return (even if you have left that club, and the club had disbanded in QLD)

It is poorly worded, and reactionary, it erodes freedoms of normal people whos club might have been involved, but they themselves not. what this law is, well it would be like sending all germans to jail, because they were nazis (yes it is an overstatement, but the law is a joke)


PS, I went for a test ride on a bike, I wore black leather and the bike was a Triumph Thruxton, I was by myself, and I was pulled over for a "random check", now, they could have easily checked to see it was a dealers bike, I wasn't on a bike that you'd think a "bikie" would ride, and I've never been in a club, and my jacket has ever had patches. the laws are f***ed, and mis-targeted, those bikies that are doing wrong often dont ride their bikes that much, they are in their commodores, and BMW's
04:12pm 11/11/13 Permalink
TDog
Brisbane, Queensland
181 posts
Yes - here - https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/C/CriminCodeCOR13.pdf

At page 3.

It lists out the outlawed clubs. Clearly, the SES and the RACQ is not on the list.
04:38pm 11/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4505 posts
Yes - here - https://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/C/CriminCodeCOR13.pdfAt page 3.It lists out the outlawed clubs. Clearly, the SES and the RACQ is not on the list.



didn't imply they were, I gave an example of how someone not involved with the criminal actions of a club could get caught up
04:43pm 11/11/13 Permalink
Damo
Brisbane, Queensland
6705 posts
08:51pm 13/11/13 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10187 posts
Freedom of association is critical to any democracy.

What's next banning trade unions ?

Perhaps we can burn down the Parliament.

F*** the Reichstag (Hindenburg's big mistake ... 911 style)
09:22pm 13/11/13 Permalink
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