Post by trog @ 10:15am 03/06/11 | 92 Comments
However, many developers have not been credited for their contribution to its production. The game's credits roll is missing over 100 names, many of whom we personally worked with during our time there. Others have been credited under ‘Special Thanks’, where they would be eligible to be credited under their relevant discipline.The aggrieved developers have created a dedicated site - http://www.lanoirecredits.com - which they believe contains the names of everyone involved in the development of the game.
These people devoted their talent, creativity and passion towards the project and, as is common in the games industry, have not been credited because they were not there during the final month or two of production, or for some other subjective criteria. A significant portion of these people did not leave Team Bondi by choice: they were made redundant as the art production wound down, and as Quality Assurance was shifted off-shore to Rockstar's studios.
We've contacted Rockstar for a comment a few moments ago and will update this post if we hear back. In the meantime, we encourage anyone interested in supporting the Australian game industry to take a look at that site!
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Posted 10:19am 03/6/11
Posted 10:21am 03/6/11
I wish they had put the location (city) of each person in the credits. It would be great to see how much is based in Oz.
Posted 10:38am 03/6/11
Posted 10:46am 03/6/11
Posted 10:50am 03/6/11
the only people who might care are those that would potentially hire them in the future based on their previous employment history
Posted 10:50am 03/6/11
Disclaimer: ^ pretty much a wild assumption
Posted 10:51am 03/6/11
Posted 10:53am 03/6/11
very wild. it would be like 0.02%
Posted 10:57am 03/6/11
how much less? :p
Posted 10:58am 03/6/11
Posted 11:06am 03/6/11
I have no doubt that being officially noted as contributing to a 5-star project like Noire is bank for a developer's resume, especially for a bunch of poor c**** that were made redundant!
Posted 11:06am 03/6/11
to answer your question, not much less
Posted 11:14am 03/6/11
Yeah they were my thoughts. I'd be pissed if someone did that to me.
Posted 11:25am 03/6/11
people understanding what you mean from the context despite an incorrect usage of a phrase =/= validity, imo.
"could care less" is nonsensical.
this.
games development doesn't seem like the most stable of industries so i feel for these poor guys who don't get the credit they deserve. could seriously impact their future job prospects and income.
Posted 11:22am 03/6/11
Gamers, pfft. Get out of your bubble filled with COD stats and smell the roses!
Posted 11:28am 03/6/11
Yeah I sorta completely forgot about that. My bad.
Posted 11:38am 03/6/11
Posted 11:48am 03/6/11
Posted 11:57am 03/6/11
Yeah, but I wasn't left out of the credits. :)
Posted 11:58am 03/6/11
Posted 12:04pm 03/6/11
Posted 12:06pm 03/6/11
relying on others to interpret the meaning of your words based on context because you lack the ability to use correct language < using correct language ;)
Posted 12:15pm 03/6/11
What work did you do on it cuz?
Lead senior programmer? motion capture? graphic design? starring voice actor? impress me!
Posted 12:20pm 03/6/11
Posted 12:21pm 03/6/11
Posted 12:33pm 03/6/11
:p
Nice one.
Posted 12:40pm 03/6/11
Posted 12:47pm 03/6/11
I always heard it growing up as Couldn't care less, and I say couldn't care less all the time. It means exactly what it says, makes sense etc.
When I hear people saying could care less they sound retarded and I want to slap them. I heard it in Game of Thrones this week and wanted to cry.
Posted 12:52pm 03/6/11
Posted 01:02pm 03/6/11
This just in... use something enough and it becomes correct. News at 11.
Yea that was annoying.
Posted 01:07pm 03/6/11
It's a simple matter of fairness - if they worked on the game, and some of their colleagues are credited, they should be credited too.
Posted 01:42pm 03/6/11
Posted 01:46pm 03/6/11
Also many architects do get their name on the building; I'd be pretty surprised if you found a big office building for e.g. that didn't have the name of who made it somewhere on it. I know my last two apartment buildings have had the name of the company that built them on there. Possibly, but in that case there should be no credits at all.
As someone pointed out, the credits aren't for normal people; they're there for the satisfaction of having your name on something forever and their peers. It's just a slap in the face if you worked on something aside someone and their name gets put on something and yours doesn't.
Posted 01:58pm 03/6/11
Posted 02:06pm 03/6/11
I think I should be able to ban people on this forum.
Fortunately, neither of us can have our way.
Posted 02:08pm 03/6/11
More than that game development companies would be interested in previous qualifications. If you weren't in the credits you may as well not have put in the 100 hr weeks for 2-3 years for a pittance of what you're worth.
Posted 02:12pm 03/6/11
gotya.
Posted 02:17pm 03/6/11
I have been credited on a few things I've done that have gone to air, been recorded had programs printed etc etc, most of the time it was a requirement because I was being paid a royalty on top of my wage, not sure if the same applies to the games industry?
Posted 02:21pm 03/6/11
In the film, TV, game and music industry credits are everything. Before you reach a certain point in your career they are worth many times more than your pay.
It is also just a nice acknolwedgement. For example, if you pick any one minute from a Star Wars prequel, around 1000 people will have done SOMETHING to help create that one minute of footage get to the screen. That is a LOT of hard working people. And in these industries people work about 300% beyond what they're paid to do.
There are generally rules with credits, however. Certainly with film. To be credited you need to have X amount of screen time, or have to have written X amount of the script, for example.
Not sure if its the same with gaming. If you skinned one gun, I doubt you'd be entitled to a credit. If you did them all, you would be, etc.
I put my name on every piece of work I can get it onto, because it increases my profile and in some cases my IMDB rating, etc.
Credits are very important.
Posted 02:25pm 03/6/11
seems game creation in brissy isnt dead.
Posted 02:27pm 03/6/11
credits.
post director.
scrotumphantom.
post producer.
scrotumphantom.
lead keyboard operator.
scrotumphantom.
mouse operator.
scrotumphantom.
Posted 03:25pm 03/6/11
What a copp out.
Posted 02:39pm 03/6/11
Luckily he isn't the rest of the world. Shame he lives in it though.
Posted 02:53pm 03/6/11
Posted 02:57pm 03/6/11
do you really think this is how a potential employer would verify a credit for games development?
really?
Posted 03:04pm 03/6/11
unfortunately hoggy!
Posted 03:06pm 03/6/11
Posted 03:07pm 03/6/11
Keep going bud, you'll dig yourself out soon enough!
Posted 03:08pm 03/6/11
yeah ok copuis
Posted 03:09pm 03/6/11
Posted 03:14pm 03/6/11
Posted 03:19pm 03/6/11
Posted 03:28pm 03/6/11
Posted 03:30pm 03/6/11
One company, wooo, its so alive in Brisbane....oh wait, there used to be a hell of a lot more.
Gaming in brisbane is not dead, its almost there tho
Posted 03:57pm 03/6/11
Posted 04:05pm 03/6/11
I haven't been credited a couple of times on television but because I was being paid - I didn't give a s***. If I had screwed up and were no longer in good terms with the company for some reason, I'd have a little fight about the credits because I couldn't get a referee for my next position: that's what it sounds like to me. That or a pride issue coupled with b****ing ex-employees. bleh. Been there done that, sour grapes all round.
In my current job, I'd love to get a mention in the next board report.
Cry more.
Posted 04:17pm 03/6/11
What the hell industry is this? The only reason I can think of is that the software component is so minor and simple that crediting someone for doing it is like an insult.
Posted 04:51pm 03/6/11
Posted 04:53pm 03/6/11
Posted 04:56pm 03/6/11
Posted 05:04pm 03/6/11
Hahah Can I get an achievement for that?
Posted 05:36pm 03/6/11
i understand the main people might be in the opening credits, and others left off, or even the end screen credit rolling (if they have a credit screen else where that outlines role/title of all those that worked on it)
sure it doesn't to go into the same detail as some movies that credit the actors PA's, and the porta loo company
did a reference letter at least go to those that worked on the game, (to help with finding roles on new projects ?)
Posted 09:59pm 03/6/11
Posted 10:23pm 03/6/11
All those words you see scrolling up at the end of tv shows and movies, credits!
Those names you see against newspaper, magazine articles and on the covers and in forewords of books, credits!
All of that text on the back of cd albums, credits!
Are you just peeved that as a Sandwich Artist you're not allowed to sign your name on each sub wrapper, Door?
Posted 10:38pm 03/6/11
EG: Videogames, movies, books, TV shows (obvs exceptions that still fit in the rule are shows similar to 2 and a half men, they aren't long term and therefore dont' need credit per show) etc.
This allows you to 'prove yourself" in your next role.
Which comes to my next statement:
Those who were sidelined on the credits list probably didn't work full time on these projects for a long time. But LA Noir shouldn't be changing industry standards.
Posted 11:17pm 03/6/11
You've answered your own question...be that in a sarcastic way. The amount of projects that I have submitted for public consumption which I have not been credited in a personal fashion - but only to the company, have been numerous. It's not a right to be credited, it's a privilege up to the companies discretion.
If someone were to develop a new and limited flavour of icecream in their lab, you would not see their name plastered next to the product in public view. It's just a trend of media to insist their product is one of grandeur.
Whatever you produce is owned by the company. If the company does not credit all parties - tough - that's how s*** works. I don't see how software is different - it's just with a game, the credits can be easily displayed. No one owns shiiiiit. Keep in mind I'm keeping a completely legal stand-point on this currently. No one has any rights to have themselves credited on anything unless it's stipulated in the contract.
last edited by Door at 23:17:04 03/Jun/11
Posted 11:12pm 03/6/11
I would be pretty pissed if I worked on a game and didn't get credited, its a pretty important thing, especially if you're just starting out. A lot of game jobs even have requirements like "Must have worked on at least two published titles", so if you aren't credited, you can't prove that you worked on it.
Posted 11:30pm 03/6/11
But you can be credited with a reference. I consider my profession an art. You could say that coding isn't an art. A product does not make art. Creating an icecream flavour is art. Creating anything is an art. You cannot confine art to the visual or auditory, if that's you're point. Saying that typing a code which stipulates how high you can jump in a game differs to defining the capabilities and future of company growth is nonsense. Everything is an artform if you can justify it. If you're going to allow a physics programer to hold the title of 'artist' you may as well allow every other creator as well. This is just tedious media argument created by haters who feel they have been unjustifiably chastised i.e. sour grapes.
Your analogy doesn't work if a company commissions you to create a work of art. This has been done by so many artists before it's not funny. They get others to create their visions and take full credit. Even Andy Warhol did it and you don't see "constructed by" near any of his work.
Load of sour grapes.
last edited by Door at 23:30:41 03/Jun/11
Posted 11:49pm 03/6/11
Posted 12:02am 04/6/11
If there was someone who had claimed the entirety of the artistic design of a character, I could almost see your point - however if they were - they would be commissioned by a creative artist who had control over their output...but....that person has been credited. Full stop. Welcome to the real world, b******.
last edited by Door at 00:02:10 04/Jun/11
Posted 09:07am 05/7/11
Sorry to gravedig, but just noticed this reply trog - I've worked on products in my time that are now important business tools used by Carsales, Adstream and the Australian Government - you won't see my name in any credits for those products. In fact, generally only the top people at the companies get any credit whatsoever - eg, you might see Greg Roebuck and Adrian Kinderis reaping all the glory, but in reality they had f*** all to do with the product (other than maybe setting unrealistic deadlines and agreeing to commercial deliverables without consulting the teams). Why should games be any different?
^^ This
Posted 09:16am 05/7/11
Posted 09:20am 05/7/11
Posted 09:41am 05/7/11
Posted 11:32am 05/7/11
Why does there need to be a paradigm shift? Because people who work in other industries are grumpy that they don't get credited for their work? Its an accepted part of the industry, its a perk of the job. Other jobs have different perks, like my brother can get incredibly cheap or even free gear from Samsung through his job, and if you worked at Subway you could get free subs, if you work at a retail store you get a staff discount. If you work on a game, you get your name in the credits.
Posted 11:47am 05/7/11
I was going to post pretty much what Khel said. Why should developers stop being credited? You're not giving any reason other than "I don't get credited in my line of unrelated work!"
Posted 11:49am 05/7/11
Posted 12:55pm 05/7/11
Posted 12:59pm 05/7/11
Ok, Why should they be credited ?
It's only a social "norm" much like wearing pants. And I for one hope for a pants optional future.
Posted 12:59pm 05/7/11
Indeed - just not in the direction you assume.
Posted 01:02pm 05/7/11
Posted 01:28pm 05/7/11
No, sorry, the burden of proof is on the god believer in that scenario, just like it is here on the people who don't think game developers should be credited. Thats how the industry works, it is accepted, and has been accepted for many many years. If you want to change that, or you think it needs to work differently, merely saying "Well, why should they get credited anyway?" is not a valid argument.
Posted 01:31pm 05/7/11
Otherwise the people who own the game (ie. the company) can do as they please. It's bat and ball and they can do what they want.
Posted 01:39pm 05/7/11
Posted 01:41pm 05/7/11
I guess that is kind of like credits...
My name is also burried away in the Meta-Data of all the Mapfiles/Plot Paramater Files/Leica Export files etc. But again, thats more so people can find me when something goes wrong so that I can fix it...
Still, if having your name on something is a perk of the job, get it in writing in your work contract. Otherwise it's up to the company to decide what they feel is in the best interest for them. Showing appreciation to their workers (by putting their name in a section of a game no-one ever reads) might end up being in their best interest.
You have the whole God/Burden of proof thing backwards. There was centuries worth of God being a Omnipitent precedence too.
Posted 01:46pm 05/7/11
Posted 01:56pm 05/7/11
Posted 02:02pm 05/7/11
Posted 02:00pm 05/7/11
I mean, in practise, this doesn't even really effect me, the only games I've got my name in the credits for are games I'd probably rather not be credited for. But I don't understand where all the anti-game credits sentiment comes from or what the reasoning behind the argument to get rid of them even is.
Posted 02:08pm 05/7/11
I just don't like the ' We've done it for 50 years! ' argument :)
Posted 02:21pm 05/7/11
(at least from me)
The people that are paying the money to make the game can do whatever they like so long as they aren't breaking any contracts or laws (eg. demanding they allow them to sodomise you twice daily). If he dev's don't like it they can leave, either they won't be able to hire anyone and they go bust or they'll find more devs and off they go. That's my argument.
The crap about creative processes and social norms and "tradition" in an industry that has existed 25 years and thus some inalienable right for games industry people ... blah blah blah lol whatever that's your argument. (The rest of the software industry doesn't do it so it's a flimsy argument at best eg. MS Office I think it's an easter egg but only in the mac version ?)
IMO since it seemingly concerns you greatly, instead of sticking your head in your shell and shouting at the world, next time you work for a games company you can ensure that having your name in the credits is part of the deal (if it is that important to you).