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Post by Steve Farrelly @ 12:11pm 23/11/10 | 102 Comments
Director of Policy and Enforcement for Xbox LIVE, Stephen Toulouse, recently posted on his blog a basic and clear reasoning for banning users who create swastikas as part of their online personality on Xbox Live after he was asked by a user over Twitter "Hey, I’m not a genocidal hater of Jews but I really love the design of the swastika because its actually used by numerous religions, can I use it as my Call Of Duty: Black Ops logo?" to which he responded "no, of course you can’t, we’ll ban you".

To clarify further, Toulouse explained that while he understood the symbol itself has various meanings across a wide array of religions, in modern context, it is simply inappropriate to use as part of an avatar or online persona.
Let’s be clear: no educated human on the planet looks at the swastika symbol on a video game service in “the year we make contact” and says 'oh, that symbol has nothing at all in any way to do with global genocide of an entire race and, even if it did, one should totally and reasonably ignore that because it’s a symbol that was stolen or coop-ted from religions."
The full blog post is pretty interesting, but his stance is clearly one based on common-sense, and having come across players online with said Swastika, I'm inclined to agree with that stance. But let's open the floodgates, what do you think?



xbox liveswastika symbolbancall of duty black ops





Latest Comments
arclore
Posted 12:43pm 23/11/10
That is absolutely stupid.
MoSFXx
Posted 12:44pm 23/11/10
While they are banning symbols, why don't they ban the idiots who make a picture of a hand pulling off a d***?
thermite
Posted 12:44pm 23/11/10
You know who else liked to ban symbols? THE NAZIS.
fpot
Posted 12:45pm 23/11/10
Easy fix, just make 9/11 symbols.
kappa
Posted 12:52pm 23/11/10
lol I have seen some pretty creative / funny black ops symbols.

but some people go to far eg. world trade center towers, kkk burning blacks :S

pretty sad
teq
Posted 12:53pm 23/11/10
what about a Swamaka?



too soon?

last edited by teq at 12:53:50 23/Nov/10
evvan
Posted 01:01pm 23/11/10
THE ONLY F*****G SYMBOL THEY SHOULD BAN IN THAT GAME IS THE F*****G ALL SEEING EYE!
Gesthemene
Posted 01:07pm 23/11/10
I can't tell if people in this thread are taking the piss or simply retarded :(
AverageCowboy
Posted 01:13pm 23/11/10
I wholeheartedly agree with their decision, I think it's perfectly reasonable and anything else is a fickle argument over an inappropriate technicality.
thermite
Posted 01:13pm 23/11/10
I was serious. Banning something because it offends someone is stupid. The argument given by Toulouse is highly emotional and irrational. In fact I might boycott COD.
Gesthemene
Posted 01:15pm 23/11/10
Banning the swastika because the connotation of it in the modern world is one of racism, genocide and violence is completely acceptable to me.
arclore
Posted 01:17pm 23/11/10
But it's part of my religion bruz!

Midda
Posted 01:22pm 23/11/10
The mirror image of the Swastika is what the Japanese use to mark Temples on their maps. So I guess that'd be banned too, even though it's not actually Swastika?
kos
Posted 01:27pm 23/11/10
I was serious. Banning something because it offends someone is stupid. The argument given by Toulouse is highly emotional and irrational. In fact I might boycott COD.

Isn't racism is a bannable offence on these forums as well? That rule would exist purely because such things would offend people, will you be boycotting these forums as well?
AverageCowboy
Posted 01:30pm 23/11/10
I am secretly lolling at thermite but @Midda: It's really not that hard to show a little sensitivity and common sense and not just be blatantly provocative/incendiary over a minor technicality (despite how technically correct it might be) when you consider the grand scheme of things and how such a decision might affect others, or specifically not just others, an entire section of humanity, ie, "them Jews"

:|
koopz
Posted 01:34pm 23/11/10
what would Don Draper say?

fade
Posted 01:43pm 23/11/10
That is the most illogical response in a long time.
Sc00bs
Posted 01:51pm 23/11/10
who gives a f*** its a symbol
thermite
Posted 01:56pm 23/11/10
Isn't racism is a bannable offence on these forums as well? That rule would exist purely because such things would offend people, will you be boycotting these forums as well?


No because I am against racial discrimination. (Plus you pay for COD) I'm against most of what the nazis did too. But telling someone they can't use a symbol is the sort of thing Hitler would do. I see acting like that as being closer to a nazi view than using some symbol. I think i'd be more pissed if this was the government doing it, since I also support microsoft to make any damn rules about their service they like. Just means I might be less likely to buy it since I didn't like their response to that guy.
FaceMan
Posted 02:01pm 23/11/10
We should ban the Star Of David because it represents the Holocaust being suffered by Palestinians because of the Democratically elected Government in Gaza.
demon
Posted 02:04pm 23/11/10
i think it's more like 'who gives a f*** it's a s*** game on a s*** console' :p

if they tried to ban the swastika in a game i thought was worthwhile (& that allowed such user content) then i might say that it's retarded to allow user content & then ban certain arrangements.
ShwaMiller86
Posted 02:06pm 23/11/10
"I'm against most of what the Nazis did" love it.

To be perfectly honest the whole discussion is positively retarded. 99% of people would use to to make things offensive.

The argument that you paid for it doesn't stand. Were you told there would be swastikas and are now upset that there aren't any? No. no one is limiting your use of the product as advertised.

The comparison of Toulouse to Hitler is also amusing.

It also offends far more than one group of people and personally I would vote for a banning of all religious symbols in the game. Its not an appropriate place for them.
ShwaMiller86
Posted 02:07pm 23/11/10
"We should ban the Star Of David because it represents the Holocaust being suffered by Palestinians because of the Democratically elected Government in Gaza."

See? Ban all symbols.

Also, the above quote is also retarded.
FaceMan
Posted 02:10pm 23/11/10
Is this going to descend into a 'causes of WW2' argument ?
I hope so.

Sc00bs
Posted 02:13pm 23/11/10
people get upset way to easily. If a symbol upsets someone there is something wrong with that person.

its just another layer of cotton we are gettin wrapped up in to "protect" us from the evil symbols of the world.

Spook
Posted 02:14pm 23/11/10
i think the real story here is that ke$ha had to change her back up dancers outfits while she has been out here in australia because they were german looking.

THINGS ARE GETTING OUT OF HAND@11!!11!
trog
Posted 02:15pm 23/11/10
I was serious. Banning something because it offends someone is stupid. The argument given by Toulouse is highly emotional and irrational. In fact I might boycott COD.
Trying to manage an online community is like an everlasting game of wack-a-mole, where each time you wack a mole, you also punch your own d***.

My interpretation, as someone that has come up with and enforced similar policies, is that Microsoft aren't doing this because they're opposed to freedom of speech, or hate Nazis, or want to annoy you. They do it because this policy creates less of a support burden for them to deal with.

If they did let the swastikas fly, obviously people would misuse it for all sorts of things, either in jest or for serious. The benefit of letting a vanishingly small percentage of people that would want to use it "seriously" do so pales in comparison to the amount of bulls*** they would receive from pissed-off people who encountered some douchebag griefer (or worse, some actual serious racist Nazi) would be a real pain in the ass. Every complaint for such a user that comes through has a real, quantifiable cost attached that they would have to absorb.

So for them, its easiest just to wack that mole with a global policy that they can enforce simply and easily with a view to trying to minimise the support burden from that corner.

I am as freedom-of-speech as anyone but at the end of the day Xbox Live is a private network and they should have the right to do whatever they want with it, and I am perfectly happy with them making a decision that minimises the amount of slaw work they have to do in the hope that it will help them provide a better service overall.
fpot
Posted 02:15pm 23/11/10
I agree with scoobs in a way but spraying a swastika everywhere in a video game is just obnoxious. I see it more of a way of banning obnoxious behaviour than it is banning a symbol.
demon
Posted 02:17pm 23/11/10
what's wrong with looking germanic? :(
this whole thread is racist against germans. ;)
Steve Farrelly
Posted 02:19pm 23/11/10
what trog and fpot said
thermite
Posted 02:30pm 23/11/10
Well that's a far better argument than the provocative* quote in the OP.

* in a goading way, not a sexy way
Devildog
Posted 02:34pm 23/11/10
without lowering myself to you dont allow it because your a nazi defence, looking at it logically

There is a precedent for this.

The silent hunter uboat game series did not include the swastika in their game because:-
A) Due to what happened with genocide in WW2 they didnt include it so as not to offend people still living from that era
B)While adults do play the game, it would also go out to children and send messages to them.
C) The swastika is illegal in the country of germany and is not shown anywhere, part of the reason why nearly all germans have never seen the movie the sound of music due to the many swastika iconic symbols in the movie that incites and encourges nazi nationalism, something most people want to avoid. We saw a variation genocide of that recently in kosovo with "ethnic cleansing" but essentially its the same thing.
D) That in doing so also would invalidate the very market that they were trying to sell to, it ALL just makes common sense.

So Steve Farrelly, its not about the symbol dumbass. its what it represents and what it has the potential to inspire and motivate people to do unspeakable things....AGAIN. My uncle was an Australian soldier in WW2 in a german concentration camp and hes not jewis*** So it can happen again to people from this country if you let it . This is what we all don't want to happen again and that's why its banned in Germany because people don't want that again , the pain , the war, the misery the shame and humiliation.
Putting it on a game, a thing for entertainment and fun, is just not cool. You've got a brain, use it.
fpot
Posted 02:37pm 23/11/10
^ you really need to learn to comprehend stuff better. Steve was just posting a news article and a quote from someone from microsoft, and agreeing with a pretty objective point that banning the swastika in a game is pretty much common sense.
ravn0s
Posted 02:41pm 23/11/10
i would have thought allowing people to use the swashtika would make it easier for them to sort the douchebags from the rest of the population and ban them accordingly.
Devildog
Posted 02:46pm 23/11/10
i would have thought allowing people to use the swashtika would make it easier for them to sort the douchebags from the rest of the population and ban them accordingly.



BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ... NOOOO... Thank you for playing
wiggleplix
Posted 02:47pm 23/11/10
It's a game people. The holocaust happened- ancient history. Who the f** is playing games and is going to be offended by it? The interwebs is full of s*** stuff everywhere, so what.
shade
Posted 02:54pm 23/11/10
ridiculous, considering you are playing a game where you are killing people and they are trying to talk about offensive content. They should also ban anyone with a symbol of the rising sun out of respect for all the people who died in japanese PoW camps.
fpot
Posted 02:55pm 23/11/10
More strawmans in this thread than a Wizard of Oz scarecrow audition.
arclore
Posted 03:05pm 23/11/10
It's like 50 years later. How long until that symbol is socially acceptable again?

Let's have at the Germans here:

They work on average 27 hours a week and enjoy abundant leisure time, yet are leaders in technological innovation, have the largest national economy in Europe, the 4th largest in the world despite being a relatively small country.

They sport a history of having the greatest scientists including Einstein, Von Braun, they have more nobel laureates than any other country (for a huge proportion of the last century).

As a people, they are beautiful and athletic, being one of the most dominant countries historically in the Olympics (ranking 3rd in medal count, only to countries 5 times as big being the US and Soviets ahead of them) and sporting activities are a way of life for the average citizen.

Artistically they have given us Beethoven, Bach, Wagner, Nietzsche, Schiller, Goethe...

Hell, what if hitler WAS right?

last edited by arclore at 15:05:19 23/Nov/10
Spook
Posted 03:00pm 23/11/10
getting bombed to f*** sure turned their lives around!
fpot
Posted 03:00pm 23/11/10
Your trolls are weak and easy to spot.
Nerfington
Posted 03:00pm 23/11/10
It's used on the hilt of the sword of the main character in the Bleach manga/anime. Seeing it in other contexts desensitises and I find it stops being an evil taboo, the way things should be.

fpot
Posted 03:02pm 23/11/10
That's not a swastika, it just looks a bit like it.
ravn0s
Posted 03:03pm 23/11/10
How long until that symbol is socially acceptable again?



probably not until the last vet is dead.
fade
Posted 03:05pm 23/11/10
Arclore - that's interesting. but you didnt mention their greatest export - german hardcore porn.

in all seriousness, the germans have a lot to be proud for. they should stop feeling guilty for sins for ghosts past.
Khel
Posted 03:06pm 23/11/10
Who the f** is playing games and is going to be offended by it?


Well I dunno, maybe the families of those millions of people who were killed? Just a thought.

But yeah, agree totally with fpot and trog, its more that they're just limiting the ability to be douchebags and giving people one less avenue to grief other players online. Its all nice to espouse the joys of free speech and dream about what a wonderful world it would be if we could all just get along, unfortunately thats not even close to the reality for most online communities. The anonymity of the internet creates an almost overwhelming flood of douchebaggery and brings out the worst in people, so I can't blame Microsoft for taking any and every measure they can to try and stem the flow.
Nerfington
Posted 03:15pm 23/11/10
That's not a swastika, it just looks a bit like it.

Odd, I had read numerous times that it was meant in an original context of "unstoppable" (with regards to the characters), but after looking it up it seems it may be a Japanese letter used in the spelling of the sword.

Either way, while I get the desire to stop douchebaggery, the symbol does have other usages, and I think finding a way to get people familiar with those will help demystify the evil of it.
parabol
Posted 03:18pm 23/11/10
wiggleplix
Posted 03:22pm 23/11/10
Well I dunno, maybe the families of those millions of people who were killed? Just a thought.

What families? why don't they just f**** get over it? seems that the more they complain about the s*** the more the antagonists enjoy putting it out there. If the so called "families" of the victims said meh, maybe the antagonists would give up.
It's akin to calling gays poofters, that doesn't bother you anymore does it?
skythra
Posted 03:23pm 23/11/10
it has the potential to inspire and motivate people to do unspeakable things....AGAIN.

I'm with this guy, I bet that just seeing the symbol is going to make you all go out and do unspeakable things. Possibly because your limitations of english makes it hard to converse or perhaps you've lost your voice due to sickness.

But either way, the symbol made you do it and that's the biggest problem.

(Ps my actual stance is this is a huge retarded blow up considering why should we care if we make concessions in a game about user generated content? Who gives a s***. It's not like your life is so importantly dedicated to that one image they banned that you can't play the game without it. Grow up.)
deadlyf
Posted 03:33pm 23/11/10
I find it hard to understand why people get so upset about the fact that it's banned on a s***** little gaming community, they could ban penguins for all I care it's not going to affect the world in any way.
fade
Posted 03:33pm 23/11/10
Well I dunno, maybe the families of those millions of people who were killed? Just a thought.

But yeah, agree totally with fpot and trog, its more that they're just limiting the ability to be douchebags and giving people one less avenue to grief other players online. Its all nice to espouse the joys of free speech and dream about what a wonderful world it would be if we could all just get along, unfortunately thats not even close to the reality for most online communities. The anonymity of the internet creates an almost overwhelming flood of douchebaggery and brings out the worst in people, so I can't blame Microsoft for taking any and every measure they can to try and stem the flow.


Why do people have to get along? Can't people handle differences of opinion. Further, if you are so offended by some image displayed by another player in an online community see a counselor because you've got problems.

Personally, I think that free speech is an essential liberty, except in circumstances where that free speech causes and counsels direct harm or damage. I don't think this amounts to that.
trog
Posted 03:37pm 23/11/10
Personally, I think that free speech is an essential liberty, except in circumstances where that free speech causes and counsels direct harm or damage. I don't think this amounts to that.
This move by Microsoft doesn't limit your liberty to free speech (...not that we have it in Australia), it just limits it ON THEIR NETWORK. That's totally within their rights to do it; if they decide tomorrow they want to ban people saying the word "Apple" then they should be able to do that.

If you want them to stop doing that, you stop giving them money and tell them that's why you're stopping to encourage a policy change. If Sony wanted to capitalise on this they could be all up and advertising about how you can use as many swastikas as you want on their network (this would make a hilarious image, someone make one).

But they won't do it, because not being complete idiots, they don't want their network getting flooded with 95% jerks, 4% actual Nazi racists, and the 1% of people that will use it in a serious/free speech capacity.
Khel
Posted 03:41pm 23/11/10
Why do people have to get along? Can't people handle differences of opinion


Because people pay money for a subscription to an online service and don't want it ruined by pre-pubescent children who think its hilarious to be idiots?

If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?

Its not about free speech, its about having a bit of common decency and respect for other people, and since theres plenty of anonymous internet commandos out there who are unable to take it upon themselves to act decently and respect other people, rules like this have to be put in place to try and minimise the damage.
trog
Posted 03:42pm 23/11/10
Because people pay money for a subscription to an online service and don't want it ruined by pre-pubescent children who think its hilarious to be idiots?

If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?

Its not about free speech, its about having a bit of common decency and respect for other people, and since theres plenty of anonymous internet commandos out there who are unable to take it upon themselves to act decently and respect other people, rules like this have to be put in place to try and minimise the damage.
nice one
Gesthemene
Posted 03:46pm 23/11/10
Because people pay money for a subscription to an online service and don't want it ruined by pre-pubescent children who think its hilarious to be idiots?

If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?

Its not about free speech, its about having a bit of common decency and respect for other people, and since theres plenty of anonymous internet commandos out there who are unable to take it upon themselves to act decently and respect other people, rules like this have to be put in place to try and minimise the damage.


This is why I want a forum/post reputation system. Well said!
arclore
Posted 03:51pm 23/11/10




ACHTUNG
Persay
Posted 03:53pm 23/11/10

this thread i l
s l
b u
o d
e that much r really it is pretty
r i
a n
c g and i don't really
arclore
Posted 03:59pm 23/11/10
If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?


I don't know why everyone is agreeing with your s***** arse analogy.

If you had of said, "If you had paid money to see a movie at a cinema AND I SAT IN THE CINEMA SOMEWHERE WITH A POLITICAL SYMBOL ON MY TSHIRT.. would you protect my right to free speech? or TELL ME TO LEAVE THE CINEMA COZ IT SEEMS TO GYRATE ON YOUR TESTICLES LEAVING YOU UNABLE TO WATCH THE MOVIE IN SILENCE?"

IT WOULD BE MORE ACCURATE.



last edited by arclore at 15:59:03 23/Nov/10
ravn0s
Posted 03:56pm 23/11/10
khel deserves a high five.
skythra
Posted 04:13pm 23/11/10
TELL ME TO LEAVE THE CINEMA COZ IT SEEMS TO GYRATE ON YOUR TESTICLES LEAVING YOU UNABLE TO WATCH THE MOVIE IN SILENCE?"
Probably tell you to leave the cinema because it conflicts with my views that they killed my mother and her parents.

They didn't but i figure one knob deserves another.

And really that's the heart of the problem. It causes fights and its not about protecting one knob or the other, but instead allowing those in the movie to enjoy the movie and not have to put up with two opposed knobs.
FaceMan
Posted 04:23pm 23/11/10
rodimus
Posted 04:38pm 23/11/10
wow wigglepix,
you should really do your research before you embarress yourself, there are still thousands of vets and holocaust survivors alive today that would disagree with your stupidity. Knob
wiggleplix
Posted 04:39pm 23/11/10
Because people pay money for a subscription to an online service and don't want it ruined by pre-pubescent children who think its hilarious to be idiots?

If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?

Its not about free speech, its about having a bit of common decency and respect for other people, and since theres plenty of anonymous internet commandos out there who are unable to take it upon themselves to act decently and respect other people, rules like this have to be put in place to try and minimise the damage.

Yeah but there are idiots in every online game. Using the whole "offensive to someones family" rhetoric is just bulls***.
How many 65 year old jewish holocaust victims will be playing x box?
wiggleplix
Posted 04:43pm 23/11/10
wow wigglepix,
you should really do your research before you embarress yourself, there are still thousands of vets and holocaust survivors alive today that would disagree with your stupidity. Knob

all playing xbox, yeah right
edit- it's a f**** game you tool, you spend far too much time on this thing mate.
Hogfather
Posted 04:42pm 23/11/10
Khel wins, forum-ality!
FaceMan
Posted 04:46pm 23/11/10
The Swastika didnt kill anyone.
Just like the US Flag didnt kill Japanese civillians.
Nobody would ever ban the US Flag.
fpot
Posted 04:47pm 23/11/10
Just give up FaceMan.
arclore
Posted 04:50pm 23/11/10

If you had paid money to go see a movie at the cinema, and I stood up in the cinema and started talking over the movie, espousing my political views and what I believe in, would you protect my right to free speech or tell me to shut the f*** up and sit down and stop acting like a knob?


I don't know why everyone is agreeing with your s***** arse analogy.

If you had of said, "If you had paid money to see a movie at a cinema AND I SAT IN THE CINEMA SOMEWHERE WITH A POLITICAL SYMBOL ON MY _TSHIRT_ .. would you protect my right to free speech? or TELL ME TO LEAVE THE CINEMA COZ IT SEEMS TO GYRATE ON YOUR TESTICLES SO MUCH IT LEAVES YOU UNABLE TO WATCH THE MOVIE IN SILENCE?"

IT WOULD BE MORE ACCURATE.
Obes
Posted 05:03pm 23/11/10
That's pretty pathetic.

The swastika is all through asia on Hindu buildings (and some buddhist), I particularly noticed it above gates and doors or on the first step.

Much like the toothbrush moustach. Hitler ruined it! You have one today and your a nazi, not someone who thought Charlie Chaplain was funny.

Why don't they ban eagles? Skull and Cross bones ? and Lightning Bolts ?
FaceMan
Posted 05:03pm 23/11/10
Asking someone to leave a Cinema for yelling out "9/11 was an inside job" is because they are being a nuiscence not because their message is offensive.

If the cinema invited anyone to yell out then only removed those who yelled out "9/11 was an inside job" that would be a freedom of speech issue.

Gesthemene
Posted 05:04pm 23/11/10
Arclore, I had a whole post typed out to explain it to you, but in the end I realised that you're too stupid to comprehend it. So, instead I'm just going to mock you for being retarded.
arclore
Posted 05:07pm 23/11/10
So you spent all that time typing it out and then didn't post it anyway? Glad I wasted your time, idiot.
Gesthemene
Posted 05:08pm 23/11/10
Nah, I was waiting for a server to reboot. Gave me something to do and a chance to reflect on the idiocy of your position some more.
wiggleplix
Posted 05:12pm 23/11/10
It's purely a business decision based on the fact that there are so many Jews in powerful positions in the US who wouldn't hesitate to brand Microsoft anti Semitic- nothing more.
Half the "victims " probably wouldn't give a s*** about it, what about movies and novels where does it end?
BTW, Henry Ford was a Nazi sympathizer- don't drive a Ford.
fpot
Posted 05:18pm 23/11/10
Obes with the typical stupid post, and FaceMan still trying vainly to make a valid point, cool.

And even using your retarded version of Khel's perfectly valid analogy arclore, if I was in a cinema and could visibly see a swastika yes I probably would leave, because I don't support the notion of displaying potentially offensive symbols for no good reason. Either because the cinema themselves are displaying it, or because they allow people wearing or displaying one to enter the premises.

(I feel dirty having responded to something so dumb)
thermite
Posted 05:20pm 23/11/10
Some interesting reading about banning swastikas. Obviously this relates more to imposing the ban on people in general, rather than stopping douchebaggery in an online game.

The European Union's Executive Commission proposed a European Union-wide anti-racism law in 2001, but European Union states failed to agree on the balance between prohibiting racism and freedom of expression.[72] An attempt to ban the swastika across the EU in early 2005 failed after objections from the British Government and others. In early 2007, while Germany held the European Union presidency, Berlin proposed that the European Union should follow German Criminal Law and criminalize the denial of the Holocaust and the display of Nazi symbols including the swastika, which is based on the Ban on the Symbols of Unconstitutional Organisations Act. This led to an opposition campaign by Hindu groups across Europe against a ban on the swastika. They pointed out that the swastika has been around for 5,000 years as a symbol of peace.[73][74] The proposal to ban the swastika was dropped by Berlin from the proposed European Union wide anti-racism laws on January 29, 2007.[72]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The page also lists over a dozen historical, and contemporary uses of the swastika that have nothing to do with nazi germany. It is a shame that people don't know more about it. This symbol has been used for thousands of years in a positive way, and then for a few short years, one group of s***heads ruin it, like they ruined the awesome Charlie Chaplin moustache.

Also here is a site that tries to reclaim the swastika for it's non-nazi uses:
http://reclaimtheswastika.com/

fpot
Posted 05:22pm 23/11/10
and then for a few short years
Yep, a few short years, in which nothing of significance happened at all.
wiggleplix
Posted 05:22pm 23/11/10
Some interesting reading about banning swastikas. Obviously this relates more to imposing the ban on people in general, rather than stopping douchebaggery in an online game.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The page also lists over a dozen historical, and contemporary uses of the swastika that have nothing to do with nazi germany. It is a shame that people don't know more about it. This symbol has been used for thousands of years in a positive way, and then for a few short years, one group of s***heads ruin it, like they ruined the awesome Charlie Chaplin moustache.

Also here is a site that tries to reclaim the swastika for it's non-nazi uses:
http://reclaimtheswastika.com/

Not to mention the lovable name Adolf.
arclore
Posted 05:29pm 23/11/10
In other news, fpot attended a rock concert the other day only to cut it short and leave in tears after seeing someone in the crowd wearing an offensive tshirt.



lulz


fpot
Posted 05:30pm 23/11/10
wow, master stroke.
wiggleplix
Posted 05:34pm 23/11/10

Is this one ok to use?
wiggleplix
Posted 05:37pm 23/11/10


But not this one?
Obes
Posted 05:38pm 23/11/10
fpot work on your insults.

The swastika has many much older uses then the Nazi Party symbol. End of story.

Banning it is bulls*** political correctness that denies the much longer use before that as everything from a religous icon to a symbol of the finish military.

And given that the eagle was used by the Nazi party (as well as skull and cross bones, and lighting bolts) why not ban it ? The answer is ignorance.
Ignorance of the symbols, and ignorance of the Nazi's.

Beyond that ... by banning the symbol, retards that derive some anti racial power from it have actually been empowered!


arclore
Posted 05:45pm 23/11/10
^ This man speaks the truth.
Khel
Posted 05:52pm 23/11/10
I don't think anyone's arguing that the swastika doesn't have a long history of being a symbol of peace, or that it has some cultural and religious signifance to some people, but like thermite and Obes both pointed out, it has been ruined. The public at large view it as the logo of the Nazi party and i'm sure to anyone who was personally affected by the war it is not a symbol of peace at all, probably quite the opposite.

Maybe thats wrong, maybe it should be reclaimed, and good to luck to the people who are working on that, but that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation and what it means right here and right now. I think its pretty safe to say the people who are abusing it on XBox live aren't doing it because they're deeply religious hindus and I think its safe to say when they're spraying Swastikas around or using them in their profiles, that they aren't promoting peace and love.

In fact, wouldn't banning it from the service, and stopping it from being abused in this way, actually promote the cause of trying to reclaim it and stopping it being as a symbol for facism and Naziism?
trog
Posted 05:50pm 23/11/10
Banning it is bulls*** political correctness that denies the much longer use before that as everything from a religous icon to a symbol of the finish military.
By that logic, they should let people call each other 'f*****s' because it just means a bundle of sticks
fpot
Posted 06:00pm 23/11/10
The swastika has many much older uses then the Nazi Party symbol. End of story
Jesus. Thank god someone has finally made that point. I am pretty sure you are the first person in the thread to do so. It just gets more relevant the more times I hear it as well. No wait the other thing, less relevant.

Because we are discussing the obnoxious and d***ish displaying of it in public. The people who make this their spray in CoD, or tattoo it on themselves, or wear it on a shirt, or whatever, probably aren't even aware that the symbol has other uses, and has been used by other organisations other then the nazi party. They are doing it either to get a rise of people in the lamest and dumbest possible way (like arclore does with his lame attempts at troll posts) or they are doing it because they believe in the ideals behind the symbol. I have no problem with either of those groups of people being shut down, and told not to wear it.

See how arclore agrees with you as well? That means you're wrong.
fade
Posted 06:33pm 23/11/10
Khel - don't you think there's a difference between a displaying an image and disturbing the peace espousing repugnant political beliefs? But I get your point.

D*******s will be d*******s and we should preempt d*******s by blocking d******* acts even if that means restricting the self regulating folk from expressing themselves lawfully, to themselves and without causing disruption to the community at-large.
EniGma
Posted 07:04pm 23/11/10
Last thing you want to be is anti-Semitic.
S*** will run your company under, so it's a understandable move.

Are we forgetting that those who hold the most cards in America are the Jews?
Check any Hollywood movie credit, Jewish produced.

Didn't more Russians die than Jews?......... *shrug*

Regardless, it's all rather silly. In the end, it amounts to nothing. Just words and symbols. Get over it.

BL if your family died. A lot of us have moved on.
At lease your people are better off and your country isn't still in ruins being raped by neighbouring countries while your "King" hides in China.

As for the cinema analogy, said person should/would be ejected for being obnoxious. Not for having a swastika on his/her shirt.

"Hitler had the right idea, he was just an under achiever."
Khel
Posted 07:05pm 23/11/10
How many people would be genuinely expressing themselves by using a swastika on XBox Live in a way that wasn't some kind of d*** move though? I mean, I wouldn't go out on a limb and say theres none, but it would have to be a very, very small number of people. Blocking it might suck for those people, but the amount of grief it would prevent far outweighs the suckyness.

On a different point entirely, would somebody religious enough to be genuinely using a swastika on their avatar or as a spray in a game, be playing games like Call of Duty anyway? If its the symbol of peace, and they're THAT devoted to be using it as such, would they really be running around in war game violently killing other people?

The negative impact of banning the symbol in this context is extremely small to non-existant, whereas the positive impact, while probably not huge and life-altering, is going to be felt a lot more. Stop trying to turn the whole issue into some kind of principle you can get behind or a soapbox to stand on, its not that deep or complicated or even meaningful. Just like you can't post porn on QGL, you can't use swastikas on XBox Live. Don't like it? Don't use the service.
wiggleplix
Posted 07:19pm 23/11/10
How many people would be genuinely expressing themselves by using a swastika on XBox Live in a way that wasn't some kind of d*** move though? I mean, I wouldn't go out on a limb and say theres none, but it would have to be a very, very small number of people. Blocking it might suck for those people, but the amount of grief it would prevent far outweighs the suckyness.

On a different point entirely, would somebody religious enough to be genuinely using a swastika on their avatar or as a spray in a game, be playing games like Call of Duty anyway? If its the symbol of peace, and they're THAT devoted to be using it as such, would they really be running around in war game violently killing other people?

The negative impact of banning the symbol in this context is extremely small to non-existant, whereas the positive impact, while probably not huge and life-altering, is going to be felt a lot more. Stop trying to turn the whole issue into some kind of principle you can get behind or a soapbox to stand on, its not that deep or complicated or even meaningful. Just like you can't post porn on QGL, you can't use swastikas on XBox Live. Don't like it? Don't use the service.

Clearly it is that big of a deal if Microsoft have bothered to say something. If they didn't think it warranted any kind of publicity it wouldn't have received any. I myself couldn't give a s*** about it one way or the other, I'm just bored.
Enska
Posted 07:47pm 23/11/10
f*** why are we still arguing this Khel won the thread ages ago.
Raven
Posted 08:29pm 23/11/10
Can I give a character a toothbrush mustache instead then?
Crizane Tribal
Posted 08:36pm 23/11/10
Didn't more Russians die than Jews?......... *shrug*

Russia lost more troops than the Allies and Germany COMBINED. I read somewhere that Russia lost like 20 million people all up in World War II. Crazy stuff.

I too think it's kind of sad that the swastika, one of the oldest surviving human symbols, has been ruined by one pissed off little Austrian bastard. I don't care so much about the connotations of peace and religion; it's the fact that it is such an important, universal, historic symbol. Some archaeologists hypothesise that the symbol could be as much as 10,000 years old. The fact that Native Americans used the symbol suggests that it must be at least 8000 years old, or perhaps Native Americans had contact with foreign cultures in ways we are not currently aware of.

While it may be possible to ameliorate the symbol through semantic change, it will take generations and a video game really is not the place to do it. I support Microsoft's right to govern the use of their own private network.
Door
Posted 08:54pm 23/11/10
A symbol which reminds the majority of the world of Nazi's can't be used on Xbox Live...

This is not an issue worth debating. STFU.
getthatscrilla
Posted 12:36am 24/11/10
FREE SPEECH. also, anyone find it ironic that in half their games you can play as Nazi's? I wonder if this counts for PC as well considering the number of swastikas ive already seen on there.
Whoop
Posted 01:18am 24/11/10
Yes it's one of those stupid rules, like power hungry server admins filtering swear words & banning you for weird names when the game itself contains swearing and/or killing & whatever, BUT! Big but here, it's their server/computer system to do with as they please and if you don't like it go find another server to play on or another gaming platform to use.
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