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Post by darkjedi @ 09:39am 27/04/10 | 54 Comments
The shake-up of World of Warcraft in preparation for Cataclysm continues, with Blizzard rolling out their planned changes for how raiding progression will work come the expansion:

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
* For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

The original Blizzard post with the full details is located here for those interested.

It's an interesting change and one that closes the (perceived) gap between 10- and 25-man raids, although it means that in theory the 10-man raids will get harder. Thoughts? promoted forum item



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Latest Comments
Khel
Posted 11:49am 27/4/10
I'm not sure how ICC 25 man stacks up against 10 in terms of difficulty.


I dunno about harder, but I much prefer 10 man icc. I guess its harder in the way that its much easier for 1 person's f*** up to wipe the whole raid, like as a healer if I drop the ball there isn't another 5 or 6 healers to pick up the slack, but at the same time I really like that cos it feels like each person is making a significant and noticeable contribution and you're not just one of the mob. It also seems to be a better raid experience imo, less chaotic, more focused, and just more fun.
gamer
Posted 12:05pm 27/4/10
Great changes imo.

About time they finally reinforced their intentions for 10 and 25 man rewards to be simular and also the difficulties.

To be honest, i found alot of 10 man hardmodes harder then the 25 man counterparts, less room for error.

Thundercracker
Posted 12:23pm 27/4/10
Yeah I'm a big fan of 10 man raiding. It's much easier to find 10 people you like to raid with, and it's far easier managing a guild that does 10 man content. I would also assume 10 mans will be more popular for PUGs now if the loot is the same.
kr0wb4r
Posted 12:35pm 27/4/10
As far as normal mode ICC goes, I think 10 & 25 man were just as easy as eachother, although 25 arthas was alot harder than 10 (alot more people to move out of the black s***, 3 valkyrs instead of 1 etc.

But in heroic mode, 25 was by far harder than 10 man. We had 2 10man groups with 8/12 Hardmode bosses down before we'd downed arthas 25man. And while some hardmode bosses are still loot pinata's. Putricide, Sindragosa & Arthas are still massive c***blocks for the majority of 25man hardmode guilds.

I can see why they would want to put 10 & 25 on the same cooldown though. We would go and smash 10man hardmode, collect the same quality gear as 25man normal, then do 25.. you'd be getting double the amount of gear as you have from most all other instances. Hell we even had alts doing 10man hardmodes because you could get loot so easily.

While I no longer play, I hope that the new changes piss casuals off to no end (if it does make 10 mans harder). To sound massively nerdy, it always seemed offensive when you put a fair amount of time and effort downing bosses early on, then see casuals being able to pug the same content because blizzard puts in a 15% raid wide damage & healing buff. I enjoyed the days of AQ40 & original naxx where if you were a sped, and couldn't stand out of fires, or generally follow instructions, you simply couldn't get the loot/see the content.
darkjedi
Posted 12:58pm 27/4/10
kr0wb4r: Blizzard stated from day one of Wrath that their goal was to allow as much of the playerbase as possible to experience the raiding content, hence the changes/zone-buffs etc. I think the whole Naxx in Vanilla WoW and < 10% of the player base getting to experience it thing still stings a bit. That aside, like all the other changes proposed for Cataclysm this may still yet evolve to another point all together closer to/during the (inevitable) beta test.

I'm keen to see how it plays out, hopefully it means less confusion around loot (4 sets of the same tier armour is ridiculous) and makes things a bit more accessible across the board.
darkjedi
Posted 05:14pm 27/4/10
Unrelated: The new Refer-a-Friend mount goes live tomorrow, so if you've got a reward pending for referring someone, don't get the Zevhra!



last edited by darkjedi at 17:14:08 27/Apr/10
Thundercracker
Posted 01:47pm 27/4/10
I hope that the new changes piss casuals off to no end


If anything I would say the new changes are more likely to cause the hardcore raiders to QQ. Casuals who do 10 man getting the same loot as 25 man? And you can guarantee the normal modes will still be easy enough for most casual guilds to get through.
Jim
Posted 01:52pm 27/4/10
is that the right link darkjedi?
Raven
Posted 02:00pm 27/4/10
Great, but is it still impossible to level from
1 to 70?
Jim
Posted 02:09pm 27/4/10
?
pre-outlands is a bit tedious, but far from impossible. I just quested 1-80 solo on a priest, except for ~3.5 levels which I gained over 3-4 sessions of being run thru a dungeon by level 80 friends for loot drops
Khel
Posted 02:32pm 27/4/10
Yeah, I levelled a priest up from 1 to 80 a few months back, it was heaps easy. I even levelled up as holy, thats how easy it was! In fact, even before all the changes they've made to speed it up and make it easier, I don't ever remember it being impossible.
GumbyNoTalent
Posted 02:44pm 27/4/10
I like the changes being a casual player who raids 25's and 10's, focusing on 10 mans and achieving the same loot and achievements as 25 will make the game a lot more accessible as I find 25's a royal pain in the ass getting 25 capable players. Our guild imploded which means we are left building 25 mans again any descent players will be in a progressing guild which leaves us with pugs for 5-10 spots every run, once 10's are equal will be so much easier to organize a capable group.
Trauma
Posted 02:46pm 27/4/10
Even more casual. The hardcore will be pissed.
Thundercracker
Posted 02:54pm 27/4/10
1-58 is always pretty average. On my last character (mage) I did 70-80 by doing lots and lots of dungeons, and really only hit up 3 zones for questing in between. But by that time I have all the heirloom gear which made the job pretty easy, and I was only playing enough such that I always had rest.
Khel
Posted 03:49pm 27/4/10
Yeah, I'm levelling up a pally atm, only really play him once a week or so so he always has like a level and a half of rested, all the boa gear, usually just end up tanking some instances and raking in the phat xp. Its pretty cruisy now, especially as a tank, cos you hit up the random dungeon finder and get a group pretty much instantly.
darkjedi
Posted 05:23pm 27/4/10
Jim - weird, it somehow pasted an older link I copied. Fixed it now.

Even more casual. The hardcore will be pissed.


How? Making 10 man raids harder to be inline with the 25 man experience isn't catering to "casuals".

What's concerning though is that you're equating "casual" to mean "bad" or "scrub". I class myself as a regular player, but would fall under the banner of being casual when it comes to raiding due to my inability to spend 3-4 hours a night doing stuff. I'm far from bad or being a scrub, but simply can't commit to raiding consistently - However by your logic that makes me a bad player, right?
Jim
Posted 06:09pm 27/4/10
cheers dude
gamer
Posted 06:39pm 27/4/10
Guys 1-60 is completly revamped in cataclism.

No more not having leather spelldmg items on your boomkin druid while leveling. They will also redo all quests and zones.

It's going to be f*****g fun again to level s***.

I think the whole Naxx in Vanilla WoW and < 10% of the player base getting to experience it thing still stings a bit.


Actually dude, that was 3% not 10%. Crazy hey!
Jim
Posted 07:18pm 27/4/10
sweet, I've been saying the vanilla game needs sorting out
Raven
Posted 07:23pm 27/4/10
The problem with 1-60 isn't that there isn't enough content, it's that there's not enough players. Zones are empty, and you can't get groups to do anything as efficiently as you could better than soloing.
Jim
Posted 07:30pm 27/4/10
I couldn't care less about the number of players, it's just the sheer tediousness of trying to kill things as some classes with the limited set of tools you have that early. dumb quest rewards a lot of the time, lame amount of XP, lots of stupid running around on foot for stupid distances. stupidly low amount of inventory space, quest items consuming that space (sigh). it seems basically unchanged since beta/release to me, meanwhile the outlands and northrend areas from the expansions are s***loads better
Thundercracker
Posted 07:50pm 27/4/10
You definitely feel the drop in quality when you go from the blood elf or space goat stating areas into the old content. And then when you hit outland it jumps up again. At the time the vanilla questing content was great, but now it seems sparse and poorly designed. Before the XP nerf for 1-60 you often had to spend time grinding in between questing to fill the gaps, and most of the dungeons were terribad beyond belief. The only one I would willingly do was the scarlet monastery instances (mainly lib and cath).

I look forward to the revamp, especially to see what they do to my favorite zones. I hope STV is still as ganktastic :)

edit: also hot off the press Cataclysm Badge and PvP Point Changes
DM
Posted 07:56pm 27/4/10
I see many hardcore raiders b****ing about the 10 and 25 man raids being on the same lockout timers. Also that they drop the same loot. I think this is a fantastic change as I love 10s way more than 25s though. When it comes to wow though no matter what change you make, it will make a large chunk of people unhappy.
grrts
Posted 10:04pm 27/4/10
hmm havent played wow in a while but im thinking i may pick up again when this is released
Khel
Posted 10:50am 28/4/10
it will make a large chunk of people unhappy.


I don't think it makes a large chunk of people unhappy, just a small chunk of very vocal people.
GumbyNoTalent
Posted 12:00pm 28/4/10
dumb quest rewards a lot of the time, lame amount of XP


Easy to fix Jim, whenever starting a new toon I create a 10day RAF trial account and spend 10 days getting to lvl 60 on 300% XP, if you intend to do more then 1 toon I would suggest paying $20 for an extra 30 days, this will allow you to gift levels from your RAF account to your main account.
Jim
Posted 12:07pm 28/4/10
heh yeh I did end up doing that with the next one
cyph
Posted 12:38pm 28/4/10
Eh, heirloom items made levelling a fair bit easier through to 58 when you then decide 'hey outlands time!'

My pally alt has almost - 250,000 exp away - dinged lvl 80... and then I craft uber items for him on my main :)
GumbyNoTalent
Posted 01:05pm 28/4/10
Eh, heirloom items made levelling a fair bit easier through to 58 when you then decide 'hey outlands time!'

Heirlooms give you Shoulders and Chest = 20% XP gain, 25% if you win the fishing tournament ring. RAF will give you 300% XP gain to lvl 60, I know which one is faster. ;)
Reverend Evil
Posted 01:23pm 28/4/10
Dunno if anyone is interested but the new RAF mount is now available. Nice two-seater rocket. Only bad thing is it can't be used as a land mount but overall it's damn sexy.
casa
Posted 04:32pm 28/4/10
This is brilliant.
I guess its harder in the way that its much easier for 1 person's f*** up to wipe the whole raid

Agreed, however it works both ways where in a 25 man raid, you're relying on 24 other people to not be retards whereas in 10 mans its only 9.

Great change, I f*****g hate the fact that my rogue is pimp but with s*** jweapons and theres no point playing it until i can get icc25 weapons which is dumb because I hate raiding for the exact reason mentioned above.

I am happy they are dumbing the s*** out of pve in wow, pleases simple people like myself.
greazy
Posted 04:44pm 28/4/10
The only cure for wow is fire.

and women.
Foxbane
Posted 04:49pm 28/4/10
this game caters way to much to the casual player now even though it was the hardcore players who made it what it is(was at its peek)
Hogfather
Posted 04:50pm 28/4/10
this game caters way to much to the casual player now even though it was the hardcore players who made it what it is(was at its peek)

No it wasn't. The masses of casual players are what gave them mountains of money.
darkjedi
Posted 04:54pm 28/4/10
I concur. While myself and 39 mates were grinding our way through Molten Core/Blackwing Lair, millions of others were enjoying levelling, running 5 man dungeons and living in awe of those of us who wasted spent our time taking on the raid content. Or at least that's what we told ourselves ;)
casa
Posted 05:01pm 28/4/10
Yeah see I did all that 40 man raid s***, mc, bwl, and i look back and think what a horrific waste of time... so many f*****g wankers you need to put up with... not to mention I dont have 39 mates, well, 39 nerd mates anyway, f***en dont even have 24... can barely scrape 9 together heh.
Reverend Evil
Posted 05:13pm 28/4/10
People who think the glory days of getting 40 people together to spend hours in a raid dungeon was a good thing are idiots. Would you rather go back to that or move forward and streamline s***.

Just because you think you are somehow hardcore for doing that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

You're looking thru rose colored glasses.
gamer
Posted 05:19pm 28/4/10
this game caters way to much to the casual player now even though it was the hardcore players who made it what it is(was at its peek)


You say that.

But the hardcore players ARE NOW the casual players.

Back in the day... no one understood how the hit table worked. No one understood spell resistance or macros or min/maxing was acheived

In vanila it was very hard to gain that knowledge. You had to test things for yourself and do the math yourself (SERIOUSLY!!! I DID IT). Now there are wikis and a whole crap tonne of places like elitest jerks that supply the information in a cut down easy to understand form. Simulation craft shows you what spec to run with and wowpopular can show you things like the best glyphs.

I think people really underestimate the casuals these days. The knowledge of a casual has increased 1000% and they basically _are_ the hardcores these days.
Khel
Posted 06:01pm 28/4/10
You're looking thru rose colored glasses.


Yeah, this. I mean, I have some fun memories of raiding MC and BWL and AQ back in the day, but I don't want to go back to that style of raiding. It was usually only maybe 25 people who were good and knew what they were doing (if you were lucky), and then a bunch of people who got carried anyway.

Only thing I really miss from those days is how important epic level gear was, like it actually meant something to have epics. Now they're pretty meaningless, they're given out as freely as rockape gave candy to small children. Theres a significant amount of people these days who don't even know that purple gear is considered epic level, its just the status quo.
Nerfbringer
Posted 06:07pm 28/4/10
The only cure for wow is fire.

and women.


The people I know still playing WoW met women in WoW, moved in with them, and now play even more...
taggs
Posted 06:19pm 28/4/10
the 6 posts (skip nerf's, no offence just doesn't fit with my point :P) above me have summed up pretty much everything i wanted to say in this thread.
GumbyNoTalent
Posted 09:14am 29/4/10
Seriously if your all so hardcore please link your Armory so we call all marvel at these achievements and all the ICC 25 Normal and Hard Mode achievements as well. I will hazard a guess that no one will link because every time I ask this question in a forum no one ever posts because they are always full of s***.

On Silvermoon I know a few Bloodfist players and they are still to get Lich King in 25 and as far as I know they are the highest progressing Australian Horde guild I know of on Silvermoon. Fact is 25 Man Normal Lich King is still a major achievement as I would guess less the 5% of the population has achieved it.

Which is why switching to 10 Man and making the content as hard as 25 Man to achieve is a good thing in my books, as it will allow more people to achieve the end game raids because getting 25 players who can actually read a strategy and move their character while doing s*** and being aware of whats happening around them is damned near impossible, getting 10 is hard enough.

Most of the "Elite, Hardcore" players I have encountered usually have egos bigger then their actual capabilities, the actual "Good" players who do know their s*** are usually less egotistical and leave you going WOW that guy/girl really knows their s***! The ones claiming everyone else is fail is usually the ones incapable of adapting to the situation, b****ing about tanks not holding aggro or the healer not healing them because they are the tards not mitigating damage or watching their threat and targeting the tanks target.

I could go on, but would much rather go "oh er your awesome look at all the achievements achieved with dates that would suggest you did them in vanilla", please show me your armory oh great ones.
Gesthemene
Posted 09:22am 29/4/10
As of last night, we're 8/12 hardmode 25s, 11/12 hardmode 10s and have been alt farming normal LK kills for a while now and should down normal LK25 on alts this weekend.

Of course, I personally am only a casual in the guild. I just don't have time to raid. Heres the guild progression list if you're interested: http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/proudmoore/Infamy
GumbyNoTalent
Posted 09:36am 29/4/10
Nice Gesthemene, but my post was for those claiming that the game is too casual, as I'm yet to see one of them post their Armory so we can scrutinize their claims of greatness, as most haven't done half the s*** they claim.

Like most as in 75%+ of the guilds out there we are still to get a 10 Man normal finished and a consistent 25 man group to do more then the Lower Spire, as we aren't hardcore elitists and usually have to PUG so positions which usually leads to frustration as we only do 25's twice a week.

Gesthemene
Posted 09:43am 29/4/10
I can imagine the frustration :( We had problems with attendance for a very long time, which dramatically slowed down progression. In the last month or so though, it seems that everything has just become a lot smoother for the raiders, everyone working together, no b****ing etc and bosses falling regularly. At times, it's almost a sickening love-fest (especially amongst the pallies for some reason :S)
Khel
Posted 09:57am 29/4/10
Yeah, I can't really be bothered with the hard modes, I think its a pretty good idea though cos it gives the more hardcore people something to do to amuse themselves, but its optional, so the casual people can still just have fun and see the content without having to raid 4+ days a week.

We're 6/12 in 10 man atm but we've only seriously been doing it for a few weeks. Should have got blood council down last night, we so had it, but half the raid was having net problems and people kept dc'ing or lagging up at inopportune times :(

Its a lot of fun though, I only raid like maybe 2 days a week, and we're making good progress. Raiding seems more like fun and less like a job these days, so personally I hope Blizzard continue the trend to make it more casual friendly.
benit's
Posted 04:40pm 02/5/10
hardcore people something to do to amuse themselves, but its optional, so the casual people can still just have fun and see the content without having to raid 4+ days a week.
Yeah, I can't really be bothered with the hard modes, I think its a pretty good idea though cos it gives the more
We're 6/12 in 10 man atm but we've only seriously been doing it for a few weeks. Should have got blood council down last night, we so had it, but half the raid was having net problems and people kept dc'ing or lagging up at inopportune times :(

Its a lot of fun though, I only raid like maybe 2 days a week, and we're making good progress. Raiding seems more like fun and less like a job these days, so personally I hope Blizzard continue the trend to make it more casual friendly.
Khel
Posted 02:31am 03/5/10
Did you just jumble up my post and repost it? I can't figure out if you actually added anything.
Jim
Posted 03:00am 03/5/10
lol
Tiny
Posted 07:54am 03/5/10
Will this baby be in the expansion?

gamer
Posted 09:24am 03/5/10
Grats Gest

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/frostmourne/Tsunami

We're rocking it hard. We have talked a few times about 'going pro'. I don't think I could play games professionally but the others defiantly could. Sponsorship deals usually require a few trips a year to another country for you to smash faces for people in front of a crowd. That to me seams like being the animal in a Zoo. That's a little off topic though.

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