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Post by trog @ 11:57am 06/11/09 | 51 Comments
The depressing news continues to roll in with this post on Variety's gaming blog indicating that Carmack and id Software are not planning to have dedicated servers for Rage:
Its too early to say what Rage will use, but Carmack indicated he believed the servers are something of a remnant of the early days of PC gaming.
Given that id Software essentially pioneered the dedicated server (despite never releasing a standalone server package for any of their games, sad face), this is not news the hardcore PC gamer will greet with enthusiasm, especially if they live in Australia and know how futile it would be trying to play a large-scale FPS game on a home broadband connection.



ragededicated server





Latest Comments
tequila
Posted 11:58am 06/11/09
wow, is this a conspiracy or something
whats with the big shaft they're giving gamers? their best (and only) customers
trog
Posted 12:01pm 06/11/09
Why build a dedicated server for PC gamers when they account for a tiny percentage of your sales, I guess
ctd
Posted 12:05pm 06/11/09
Didn't doom3 use p2p? Surely they remember how bad and unpopular that was. Even with some decent mods.

Valve will be flying the flag I guess. Unless IWNET fails, highly doubt it.
Dan
Posted 12:07pm 06/11/09
Another one down, but at least Splash Damage, Valve and DICE are still on-side. It will be interesting to see what Epic and Crytek do with their next PC projects.
trog
Posted 12:08pm 06/11/09
Didn't doom3 use p2p? Surely they remember how bad and unpopular that was. Even with some decent mods.

Valve will be flying the flag I guess. Unless IWNET fails, highly doubt it.
No, Doom 3 was dedicated server. It had problems at launch, iirc, because it was INSANELY inefficient - a 4 player server maxed out a whole CPU, from memory, and even then it ran s***. Plus the MP stuff was pretty woeful at launch, so noone bothered playing on afterwards.

If you're making a game with multiplayer, it's so important to nail the MP stuff for launch and make it FUN and PAINLESS. If you f*** up either of those things people just stop playing MP, finish the SP, and then the game is shelved. Seen it happen over and over and over in the last 10 years.

Having a dedicated at LEAST makes the game accessible and easy to get into online for everyone. Making it fun is another problem, but at least give people the CHANCE to play your games online. Maybe for Rage it won't matter if they're focusing on SP and MP is going to be like a 4 player yawn fest anyway.
ctd
Posted 12:11pm 06/11/09

because it was INSANELY inefficient - a 4 player server maxed out a whole CPU, from memory, and even then it ran s***.

That's right. I remember it was something fairly bizarre.
Dan
Posted 12:16pm 06/11/09
The biggest s***** thing about is is that I was looking forward to seeing what other developers came up with from licensing id Tech 5. But if the flagship title won't have dedicated server support - is this going to mean that the engine licensing package won't also?

Not that anyone has even announced licensing it yet anyway, but still.
E.T.
Posted 12:27pm 06/11/09
Why build a dedicated server for PC gamers when they account for a tiny percentage of your sales, I guess


Holy crap, really?! I haven't exactly been keeping up on stats to do with this. Have you got anything you could share in relation to PC Vs Console sales Trog?
I honestly had no idea console sales had gotten so large in comparison.
parabol
Posted 12:34pm 06/11/09
Doom3 MP was awesome in a LAN. Enemy casts long shadow before coming around corner, you hide in a nearby shadow, he walks past and you place a rocket in his arse. The shadow-work really gave MP a new depth. Tried to play this online, haha!

It's a real shame they've been retreating on serious online gaming support. Might give their games a miss in the future if they keep this up. Some seriously retarded stuff.

May I ask if anyone knows why consoles are doing so well lately? They've been s*** expensive in the last generation, not much cheaper than a PC during launch. The primary thing they had going for them was that they "just work". Given the RROD, firmware bricking, freezing and other issues, this doesn't seem the case anymore. Is it mainly because there are many more titles released for them?
tequila
Posted 12:38pm 06/11/09
you know what would be awesome?

if you could play on the same dedicated servers as console gamers, with your pc
that way the pc vs. console debate could resolve its self
trog
Posted 12:42pm 06/11/09
you know what would be awesome?

if you could play on the same dedicated servers as console gamers, with your pc
that way the pc vs. console debate could resolve its self
that probably won't happen. I think one of the driving factors here is that MS (and probably to a lesser extent Sony) have made building MP games really easy with the awesome Xbox Live service and functionality. From what I understand it's really easy to give games good MP functionality with XBL, as long as you're happy with p2p, anyway.
CSIRAC
Posted 12:42pm 06/11/09
If you're making a game with multiplayer, it's so important to nail the MP stuff for launch and make it FUN and PAINLESS. If you f*** up either of those things people just stop playing MP, finish the SP, and then the game is shelved. Seen it happen over and over and over in the last 10 years.


whats up borderlands. like it was made in the 90's
Freewheelin
Posted 02:03pm 06/11/09
i dont like this recent trend towards not dedicated servers at all

HurricaneJim
Posted 02:15pm 06/11/09
you know what would be awesome?

if you could play on the same dedicated servers as console gamers, with your pc
that way the pc vs. console debate could resolve its self
that probably won't happen. I think one of the driving factors here is that MS (and probably to a lesser extent Sony) have made building MP games really easy with the awesome Xbox Live service and functionality. From what I understand it's really easy to give games good MP functionality with XBL, as long as you're happy with p2p, anyway.


What happens if the Iinet/AFACT case results in P2P being banned?
gamer
Posted 02:23pm 06/11/09
May I ask if anyone knows why consoles are doing so well lately? They've been s*** expensive in the last generation, not much cheaper than a PC during launch. The primary thing they had going for them was that they "just work". Given the RROD, firmware bricking, freezing and other issues, this doesn't seem the case anymore. Is it mainly because there are many more titles released for them?



Hardware.

Most non-hardcore gamers (like console gamers) dont give a flying flick about hardware or tessilation in directx 11 making stones look 'buldgy'. They care about their games running, without worry and being able to have alot of games work on their hardware (what do you mean my duel cards dont work on a,b and c game - i paid $2000 for them!)

Sigh. Computers are and always were at the best when HARDWARE drove the market. The more we move into software driving the market the more were going to be f***ed in the long run. Look what Windows did for the operating system market. Compared to say ... the first set of mathco processors in the 386-486 and P1 days. Sigh.

last edited by gamer at 14:23:58 06/Nov/09
parabol
Posted 02:24pm 06/11/09
What happens if the Iinet/AFACT case results in P2P being banned?

P2P means just that. Peer to Peer. A connection between two clients. You can't ban that.

The iiNet/AFACT case is more about specific P2P protocols for file-sharing, banning access to websites (e.g. ThePirateBay), disconnecting users.
without worry and being able to have alot of games work on their hardware (what do you mean my duel cards dont work on a,b and c game - i paid $2000 for them!)

You're quoting extremes to try to make your point. Most PC gamers don't have dual cards nor exotic hardware, but the games work fine nonetheless.

last edited by parabol at 14:24:22 06/Nov/09
gamer
Posted 02:25pm 06/11/09
Cheer! Thank f*** someone cleared that up para, it was starting to piss me off. The internet IS peer to peer traffic ffs. How on earth would you decide what is p2p traffic and what isnt? Cmon people.
kettels
Posted 02:30pm 06/11/09
i'll almost bet $100 this wont happen. Once they see how much MW2will be pirated because of the lack of no dedicated servers i think they'll change their minds.
gamer
Posted 02:30pm 06/11/09
You're quoting extremes to try to make your point. Most PC gamers don't have dual cards nor exotic hardware, but the games work fine nonetheless.


No s***, what would be the point of posting a week example when trying to show one?

It's not only gamers who dont give a f*** about hardware, its the programmers too. I've seen the dev kits they use nodays, the latest crytek engine shows you renderings of how s*** looks on both xbox 350 and ps3 at the same time. Devs just want to make games... they dont want to have to make games that 'scale to hardware' ... thats something great software companies do like ID Software and Blizzard.

Don't get me wrong... I would never buy a console (except an xbox1 for xbox media center) however i've seen many of my 'gaming' friends slowly fall over the years to consoles as they just dont have the time (or money) to keep their computers up to date.

I used to lan with about 3-6 guys. Now we're down to 2. The others no longer want to spent money on the newest cards (they are still running ati's 9800 etc) so they can run games that we would like to play ... which need a certain directx level... they also dont want to f*** around with patching manually and dont like that their computer because they spent $1000 runs a game s*** compared to mine that ive spent $2500 (within 2 years on) and therefore i have the higher fps and can get my rail accuracy up to 40% while theirs is at 10%...

I can see where they are coming from ... its just so much easier with a console for the majority of non-computer-geeks.
gamer
Posted 02:34pm 06/11/09
I might add, the 'line' that is holding alot of my lan mates back from upgrade is the cascading of hardware...

For them to upgrade their AGP ATI 9800 graphics card ... they need a PCI-E mobo
For a pxi-e mobo they need new ram and cpu
As they upgraded all that they moss well stick on 64bit win7 ...
Which means some of their s*** like printer and other preiferals no longer work...

It's easy to see why when we go through technology milestones like this and some people with less know how and money get held back that they justify consoles... which Microsoft has promised that the xbox 360 would be around for many years yet... look more appealing.
AverageCowboy
Posted 02:40pm 06/11/09
Rage... yep... that about describes how I feel right now, sadly ironic, isn't it.
Malzork
Posted 03:01pm 06/11/09
Has anyone else noticed that all these announcements have come from developers linked with Activision?
ctd
Posted 03:10pm 06/11/09
Kinda true, I think id now goes through EA? Correct me if wrong.
Mantorok
Posted 03:10pm 06/11/09
Rage is being published by EA though.
Midda
Posted 03:14pm 06/11/09
Rage... yep... that about describes how I feel right now, sadly ironic, isn't it.

That's not irony, that's a coincidence.
Dan
Posted 03:40pm 06/11/09
Rage is being published by EA though.
That's the official line at the moment, but there's whispers that this may no longer be the case.

id was purchased by Zenimax earlier this year, so it's assumed that all future games will be published under the Bethesda label.

But yeah, they have nothing to do with Activision any more.
qmass
Posted 04:17pm 06/11/09
i'll almost bet $100 this wont happen. Once they see how much MW2will be pirated because of the lack of no dedicated servers i think they'll change their minds.
ROFL. What the f*** backwards logic do you employ to come to this conclusion? Activision will almost certainly use the number of pirated copies to justify their decision and completely give up on supporting the PC platform.
Khel
Posted 04:18pm 06/11/09
I honestly had no idea console sales had gotten so large in comparison.


Just walk into an EB and check out how the PC games are treated these days, usually they get one shelf to themselves right down the back of the shop, while everything else, and everything up the front is console.

Even with the freezing and the bricking and the red-ringing, I still think consoles have that "they just work" attraction to people. Its still much simpler for the average person to bring home a new game, stick it in the cd tray and just start playing. No having to worry about viruses, updating drivers, upgrading hardware, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love my PC, and they will have to pry it from my cold dead hands, but someone like my brother for example has completely given up gaming on PC and just does all his gaming on his 360 and his Wii now because its so much easier and hassle-free for him.
shad
Posted 04:35pm 06/11/09
I have never even bought top of the line PC's but I would spend about 2k every 2 years to keep it up to date. Compare that to $350 for my XBOX 360 with a lifespan of about 6 years?
Dan
Posted 04:46pm 06/11/09
Activision will almost certainly use the number of pirated copies to justify their decision and completely give up on supporting the PC platform.
Pretty much. Ironically, it's the Xbox 360 version of MW2 that is being rampantly pirated a week before release.
fpot
Posted 04:48pm 06/11/09
Id haven't been worth paying attention to since they made their last game doom 2
TicMan
Posted 04:52pm 06/11/09
What happens with all this f*****ry decentralized server arrangements for games when you want to have a LAN with your buddies? Will the server software be smart enough to notice you're all on the same subnet and only let you guys play or will you end up having a bunch of randoms on the internet joining your game because you needed to use PC live or some s*** to setup a game.
Chuckeh
Posted 06:10pm 06/11/09
wow, and in the aftermath of mw2, iD was one of the companies that pc gamers felt they could trust to bring us dedicated servers.

oh well. I am seriously scared for the future of pc gaming
XaartaX
Posted 10:33pm 06/11/09
There is one upside to PC gaming dying. No need to use Windows anymore.
FraktuRe
Posted 10:35pm 06/11/09
Give it a couple years, when the consoles can't keep up anymore, and the new gen isn't out yet, we'll get a resurgence.
skythra
Posted 10:48pm 06/11/09
and the new gen isn't out yet, we'll get a resurgence.
I think this will be the case.
ctd
Posted 10:59pm 06/11/09
I dunno, the xbox360 is going on 4 years. Surely the next Microsoft console is on the way?
Infidel
Posted 11:51pm 06/11/09
i used to game on pc's but looking its a pain in the ass, xbox is the way to go for me, has the titles i like
HeardY
Posted 12:01am 07/11/09
I've got a 360 now and love it (forza 3 is tits! and PES 10 rocks) and my bro has a PS3, as I am currently at my parents place I get to use the PS3 as well

I can't be arsed playing games on PC anymore, I might get around to it when I eventually buy a PC, still working off a 3 year old laptop at the moment!
Khel
Posted 01:02am 07/11/09
I dunno, the xbox360 is going on 4 years. Surely the next Microsoft console is on the way?


Yeah, thats what I was thinking. They've got Natal landing next year, I wouldn't be at all suprised to see a new console 2 - 3 years after that.

How far do you think things are going to progress really in the next few years anyway for consoles to be left behind? Graphics aren't leaping forward in the huge ways they have been in the past, and it can take years for new advancements (such as the DX11 tesselation thing) to become mainstream enough that more than 1 or 2 games really use it. I mean DX10 has been out for ages, and how many games out there even really take advantage of that?
whoop
Posted 01:12am 07/11/09
I'll play FPS games on console if they let me use a keyboard and mouse, the hell with this controller bs.
ctd
Posted 01:33am 07/11/09
Graphics aren't leaping forward in the huge ways they have been in the past

Because consoles are dominating the market :) They can just pump out yearly sequels like cod6 and not worry about significant visual improvements.
Dazhel
Posted 02:18am 07/11/09
I mean DX10 has been out for ages, and how many games out there even really take advantage of that?


There'd be a lot more if it wasn't Vista only, give Windows 7 some time to send XP on it's way and then things will change. If PC gaming isn't dead before then of course... :(
Tollaz0r!
Posted 11:27am 07/11/09
The next gen consoles will come out when games have progressed to the point where PC Games sales start to close in on or out perform console sales. This would be due to games just needed more hardware then what the current consoles can provide.

gamer
Posted 11:53am 07/11/09
There is one upside to PC gaming dying. No need to use Windows anymore.


That made my day haha!
Khel
Posted 12:05pm 07/11/09
when games have progressed to the point where PC Games sales start to close in on or out perform console sales


As much as I love my PC, and love playing games on my PC, you're living in some kind of dream world with fairies and pixies if you think PC Games sales are ever again going to close in on or out perform console sales.

last edited by Khel at 12:05:17 07/Nov/09
trog
Posted 04:21pm 07/11/09
when games have progressed to the point where PC Games sales start to close in on or out perform console sales
As much as I love my PC, and love playing games on my PC, you're living in some kind of dream world with fairies and pixies if you think PC Games sales are ever again going to close in on or out perform console sales.last edited by Khel at 12:05:17 07/Nov/09
except for WoW and The Sims
whoop
Posted 04:32pm 07/11/09
which could both easily be played on a console
greazy
Posted 05:02pm 07/11/09
...why aren't they on consoles? WoW might be too big to store on DVD format though (but then again you can install games on the HDD for xbox).
Chuckeh
Posted 07:11pm 07/11/09
both would be much easier to control on pc
but that could be said about pretty much any game, except driving games using a keyboard

there are some genres that just belong on pc, such as rts, mmorpg and in my opinion shooters
Dazhel
Posted 07:27pm 07/11/09
...why aren't they on consoles?


Usually it comes down to money. The original Sims was on PS2 and Xbox, but the later offerings have been Windows and Mac only. I'd say one of the big reasons they're not on consoles is probably because of expansions/updates and the revenue streams built around them.

Noticed there's a metric f***ton of expansions available for later versions of the Sims? EA would have to put every one of them through the expensive & time consuming console game vetting process to get them on a disc and/or provide them as DLC. Likewise, Blizzard charges a monthly fee for access to World of Warcrack, and puts out update patches and expansions whenever they like.

If these games were through XBox Live arcade the cash would be shared with Microsoft, and rumours have always been floating about that Sony would start charging for the PSN. There's also the problem of some consoles not having storage available to hold these updates.
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