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Post by trog @ 02:37pm 30/01/04 | 74 Comments
Blizzard have opened registrations for beta testers for the World of Warcraft beta. Unfortunately for anyone not in the US, Canada, or Korea, you're not eligible.



world of warcraft
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Latest Comments
CSIRAC
Posted 02:41pm 30/1/04
well if i get chosen, the guys at Tim's Local hardware in CA is going to get some beta CD's in their mail :D:D
Volcun
Posted 02:42pm 30/1/04
'anyone not in the US, Canada, or Korea, you're not eligible.'

i really am literally crying... WHY!!!! OH DEAR GOD WHY!
Ravage
Posted 02:49pm 30/1/04
There will be testing for other countries later in the year. Don't get your knickers in a twist just yet.
shade
Posted 02:53pm 30/1/04
Too far away and our population is too small.
CSIRAC
Posted 02:56pm 30/1/04
Ravage: we got no hope. After all their other beta's not many if australians get blizzard beta's legit, and if they did they worked in the industry.
darkjedi
Posted 03:02pm 30/1/04
while I don't like my chances anyhow... mate of mine in washington normally lets me use his address & stuff to register... fingers crossed :/
casa
Posted 03:02pm 30/1/04
Well, this is a true kick in the nuts. I heard they were going to take this type of action, but I didnt think they would actually do it. Here I am, trolling the forums, and see this topic, instantly obtaining - and still to this minute - maintaining a full on battle chubby; and then i read US/Canada only :|

Still the topic in itself is keeping him up.
darkjedi
Posted 03:08pm 30/1/04
You forgot korea dude - the one country in the world where playing Starcraft & MMORPG's are second only to their nuke-making abilities....
Ravage
Posted 03:11pm 30/1/04
CSIRAC - True, but this is a MMORPG. Location of beta testers is a lot more important than what it was for their previous games.
Revenger
Posted 03:12pm 30/1/04
you do know that korea is split in two. north korea are the ones with the nukes not south.
Khel
Posted 04:06pm 30/1/04
Its like someone offered me a million dollars, then kicked me in the balls and laughed in my face instead :(
verticalseafoodtaco
Posted 04:54pm 30/1/04
what would happen if i said i did live in the us?
shade
Posted 06:43pm 30/1/04
well I'm pretty sure they post out the cd's, no downloads, so you'd have a problem then.
Khel
Posted 07:21pm 30/1/04
Nah, I was reading through the forums, and it seems they're going to have an online downloadable version of the client for people on broadband, so it might work. Unless they're actively checking to make sure people playing are only from the countries allowed, like maybe by IP ranges or something, in which case you'd be f***ed.
ReBooT
Posted 07:28pm 30/1/04
If he didnt pay for the 'f***' then thats ok too.. :)
typo
Posted 10:57pm 30/1/04
Nah, I was reading through the forums, and it seems they're going to have an online downloadable version of the client for people on broadband, so it might work. Unless they're actively checking to make sure people playing are only from the countries allowed, like maybe by IP ranges or something, in which case you'd be f***ed.


They are allowing American servicement serving overseas to enter into the beta.

So those of us with people in America who are not interested have a change.
Pharcyde
Posted 11:04pm 30/1/04
According to Blizzard, my name is Don Schroeder and I live in Pensacola, Florida.

If they send out CD's, I'm pretty f***ed though.
Indigod
Posted 11:53pm 30/1/04
Asia has the most game players in the world my poor friends and the best broadband plans!!! Every house is like connected!!! ITs part of the rent!! How good is that!!

Plus korea has more mmorpg players than any other country in the world, that includes the u.s.!! Oh u didn't know, those breeding lil rabbits are jsut that good!!
ZasZ
Posted 02:50am 31/1/04
Hello warez, Hello warforge.
clipto
Posted 04:00am 31/1/04
Warforge will be doing incredibly well to be making a comparable server. The Frozen Throne cd keys were emailed but that was just a exp. All previous beta's were snail mailed.

If you really cared you would be in blizzard's friends and family alpha.
Adz
Posted 04:19am 31/1/04
Whats the bet the beta will be leaked like several other games?
Pharcyde
Posted 09:39am 31/1/04
But you need an account to play, that can't be leaked unless you share yours with a friend or something.

A few guys got the leaked Alpha and set up a Sandbox server... There was nothing in the world, you could walk around however, but no mobs or NPC's, so its kind of a moot point really.
typo
Posted 12:12pm 31/1/04
Warforge will be doing incredibly well to be making a comparable server.


Just thinknig that they could is laughable.

Whats the bet the beta will be leaked like several other games?


Sure it is going to be leaked, but who cares. People won't be able to play it (any more than they can actualy play the alpha).

A few guys got the leaked Alpha and set up a Sandbox server... There was nothing in the world, you could walk around however, but no mobs or NPC's, so its kind of a moot point really.


Thats just it. The best that they are likly going to do allow you to spawn in a world, spawn some mobs, and activate some animations. Maybe they will add the ability to spawn equipment on the ground so you can look how leet the game is.

For them to make something that can compair with Blizzard they have to work out how the game actualy works, and not just wacking together some realy s***** combat rules and implementing them, I mean worrying about how the server handles network code, handles Mob AI, quest generation, database handling ... f*** the list is endless. I know where it will stop in its efforts to make free alternitives to blizzards servers, networking.

To indicate how hard that is going to be the everquest Emulator has been in the workd for 4+ years and it is still s***. To call it playable is realy giving it more than it deserves, it has s*** networking, s*** combat, s*** everything.
masta_blasta
Posted 01:46pm 31/1/04
Any chance of creation of a QGL (official or non-official) clan closer to release ?

Could be fun seeing as most people would be on at the same time and when the yankees are sleeping.
Opt
Posted 07:07pm 31/1/04
I hope UX:O doesnt do this
clipto
Posted 09:45pm 31/1/04
Just thinknig that they could is laughable.


It's possible.

To indicate how hard that is going to be the everquest Emulator has been in the workd for 4+ years and it is still s***.


Did the everquest emulator team start working in earnest when the "friends and family alpha" was released?

Did Everquest's company have a reputation even approaching that of Blizzard's? Was the amount of people who could play the alpha and beta dramatically restricted? Does Everquest have the massive Korean market that Blizzard will be trying to corner? Does the Everquest team have any sort of repuation to uphold?

Basically what I am saying is I doubt the Everquest team ever had any real incentive, especially in comparison to the 2 teams working on the WOW server, consider that the Everquest guys were in direct competion with the official servers, but the WOW guys will only be competing with each other.

As far as im concerned the only question is who will be the first to do it. That being said I am not holding my breath.

ps. Vivendi also said the warcraft III beta's server source was stolen, it was all lies but who is to say it wont happen?
Greazy
Posted 02:10am 01/2/04
Its like someone offered me a million dollars, then kicked me in the balls and laughed in my face instead :(

haha that was me.

Any chance of creation of a QGL (official or non-official) clan closer to release ?

if a clan ever got started, i would personally go around killing the clan members (dont ask why)

last edited by Greazy at 02:10:50 01/Feb/04
clipto
Posted 10:36am 01/2/04
Hopefully they will make it so you can freely do stuff like that.
Greazy
Posted 10:44am 01/2/04
Hell no, you'd have people that kill other players for xp, making leveling hard etc. Hopefully they make different sides able to kill each other freely.
clipto
Posted 11:09am 01/2/04
Oh no! not hard!
Khel
Posted 12:05pm 01/2/04
They may set aside a server specifically for free-for-all pvp style playing. A lot of MMORPGs have gone that road in the past. I dont think much info has been released about how PVP will work yet, but I'd say you will only be able to pvp in specific zones and the rest would be "safe".

It's possible.


Sure, its possible, anythings possible, but it would be a mammoth task and would take so much time and effort that I can't see anyone seriously completing it. I mean, to make a server the same quality as the blizzard one, it would take a team of people the same size as blizzard, with the same amount of smarts, the same amount of time. So you're looking at AT LEAST a few years. But thats assuming these people have knowledge that they dont (namely how the client communicates with the server, how combat and stuff is worked out by the server, etc, etc). That sort of thing would take a long time to figure out from an end users point of view and a lot of trial an error would be necessary.

It could easily take 4+ years to make a server that was even playable. Not to mention each time they patch the client and change something, you would have to update, change and redesign parts of your server emulator.
masta_blasta
Posted 04:03pm 01/2/04
clipto
Posted 04:34pm 01/2/04
Personally I doubt I will get into a game that doesn't go PvP from the start. Thats what I loved about ultima online, not that I ever got a real chance to play it.

Also I still think my original point about there being a hell of a lot of able/willing people to help with the server stands, so many will be excluded from the official servers of this game.
Khel
Posted 05:40pm 01/2/04
so many will be excluded from the official servers of this game.


Huh? Why?
typo
Posted 05:56pm 01/2/04
Quotes may be out of order

clipto said; Did the everquest emulator team start working in earnest when the "friends and family alpha" was released?


I think people started hacking around with it the moment that a beta was released.

Secondly drop the family and friends part in front of the alpha it is simply an alpha. Adding extra s*** just confuses the situation.

The Alpha leak came out about 6 weeks before beta, all in all pretty meaningless difference to when the EQ beta was released.


Was the amount of people who could play the alpha and beta dramatically restricted?


No, but at the time they thought they would have only 70,000 people play the game in the first 2 years and they ended up with 2,000,000 people playing at one time or another in the last 4+ years.

Does Everquest have the massive Korean market that Blizzard will be trying to corner?


With 2,000,000 copies of base EQ sold, and currently 420,000 odd players currently playing EQ, it still remains one of the most popular online games ever.

Did Everquest's company have a reputation even approaching that of Blizzard's?


No, but for the last 4 years it has been one of the largest, most commonly known (in western world) MMORGPS around.

Basically what I am saying is I doubt the Everquest team ever had any real incentive, especially in comparison to the 2 teams working on the WOW server, consider that the Everquest guys were in direct completion with the official servers


Yes they have had a lot of motivation and some very leet people. If someone could make a copy of EQ that was free f*** who wouldnt play it.

Actually just suggesting that makes it obvious that you really have no clue what you are talking about, and are dancing with fairies while waiting to play with Santas sack. The whole ShowEQ, EQW and Emu/EternalQuest/EtherQuest and all the other *Quest Emulators had hoards and hoards of code ninjas trying to work it out. F*** it was hard enough for them to keep ShowEQ running and that was a small application.

, but the WOW guys will only be competing with each other.


No, both A and SC have suggested that they want to offer alternatives to Blizzards official servers. At least until they work out that guessing Blizzards rule set for s*** is going to be impossible.

Making a piss f*** sandbox isn't that hard, all they have to do is mirror the packets being sent out. Making a MMORPG is probably one of the single hardest things you can do.

Besides there is no way on gods green earth that they will release anything that plays like WoW before the game goes gold.

As far as im concerned the only question is who will be the first to do it. That being said I am not holding my breath.


Sure in 5 or 6 years time when we are looking at Worlds of Diablo or Worlds of StarCraft MMOG ... ala when nobody f*****g cares.

Creating a server world that fits with a complicated client is f*****g hard. UO could do it because so much of it was on the client it wasn't funny, not to mention that it was very transparent in how it did things. More modern MMOGs are not transparent, and much more complicated.

How many MMOG emulators for games have been released other than UO that are any good?

Not f*****g many.


ps. Vivendi also said the warcraft III beta's server source was stolen, it was all lies but who is to say it wont happen?


Linkage to where Vivendi said that the server source was stolen, or retracted the statement where they said the server source was stolen?

Also I still think my original point about there being a hell of a lot of able/willing people to help with the server stands, so many will be excluded from the official servers of this game.


Blizzard is going to sue the pants out of anybody found putting any kind of server stuff up.

Also when the game is actually released there is only two types of people who are going to be restricted from playing: Cheap s**** and f***heads. Blizzard are looking at Non CC transactions for play (like Everquest), so that rules out people who cant get CCs.


Khel said; Sure, its possible, anythings possible, but it would be a mammoth task and would take so much time and effort that I can't see anyone seriously completing it. I mean, to make a server the same quality as the blizzard one, it would take a team of people the same size as blizzard, with the same amount of smarts, the same amount of time. So you're looking at AT LEAST a few years. But thats assuming these people have knowledge that they dont (namely how the client communicates with the server, how combat and stuff is worked out by the server, etc, etc). That sort of thing would take a long time to figure out from an end users point of view and a lot of trial an error would be necessary.


Thats just it isnt it; somebody making a suggesting that a bunch of idiots* can make a game anywhere on the same par as blizzard in any kind of timeframe is just f*****g insane. If it was that easy to make a game go get the Torque engine or go talk to Stryker (I only mentioned Stryker because Striker is writing an engine) and just hack a together...



It could easily take 4+ years to make a server that was even playable. Not to mention each time they patch the client and change something, you would have to update, change and redesign parts of your server emulator.


The simple fact of the matter is that it has taken Blizzard, one of the best examples of a good software development company 6 years to get WoW where it is now, and they have the design, they have any specs, they have the source code.


clipto said; Personally I doubt I will get into a game that doesn't go PvP from the start. Thats what I loved about ultima online, not that I ever got a real chance to play it.


People can PvP at whatever level they want to in WoW, the PvP areas they are constructing should allow for some decent PvP fun.

If you however mean PK people running around just doing content then you might not want to purchase WoW, unless they offer PvP servers. On that topic the topic of PvP servers is probably going to not make release, as they gage how popular full blown PvP really is, and if you look at other MMOGs (DAoC/EQ) it isnt as popular as blue servers

* = Announcing to the world that you have stolen IP, is kind of dumb. Announcing to the world that you are going to illegaly hack and alter the orginal IP to work around ways for Blizzard to make money is stupid.

** Edited in my explanation of an idiot **


last edited by typo at 17:56:47 01/Feb/04
Khel
Posted 06:04pm 01/2/04
Was the amount of people who could play the alpha and beta dramatically restricted?


Actually, it was. I remember signing up for the Everquest beta, and even getting accepted, but then at the last minute they decided it was too hard to do it internationally and only allowed people in the US to participate in the beta test.
clipto
Posted 07:37pm 01/2/04
Yes they have had a lot of motivation and some very leet people. If someone could make a copy of EQ that was free f*** who wouldnt play it.


People who want a low latency reliable server and can get that simply by purchasing the game and paying a monthly fee?

The point I was making, was that there has been a lot of motivation to make the server from the beginning. Not some time after the beta is released, it becomes wildly popular, and the only reason to make one is so you can play for free, NOT so you can actually play.

Actually just suggesting that makes it obvious that you really have no clue what you are talking about, and are dancing with fairies while waiting to play with Santas sack.


Well so you say, but you have not addressed my key points: WOW is from a company that has a just about unequalled repuation NOW, it will be a massive game right away, it already is a massive game depending on your definition. Their beta is going to be very
retrictive. There are "reputeable" established groups that only exist to make 3rd party servers for Blizzard games.

Sure in 5 or 6 years time


You said it was impossible, if you are now saying it can be done in a timeframe of 5 years thats a pretty big backflip. Especially considering my previous points, and god only knows how long this beta will even begin, let alone run for.

How many MMOG emulators for games have been released other than UO that are any good?


We come back to incentive here, which you still have not addressed.

Linkage to where Vivendi said that the server source was stolen?



its common knowledge, you shouldnt expect people to google every little thing

Besides, Vivendi just lost their entire source of HL2 not so long ago. Why is it so unthinkable that it could happen again? You did not even begin to address that.

Blizzard is going to sue the pants out of anybody found putting any kind of server stuff up.


Never stopped anyone (ok never stopped everyone) from doing it befor. Servers in Eastern Europe are particularly viable, considering the Europeans will be the last to play, and the history of somewhat reliable European 3rd party battle.net servers.

Also when the game is actually released there is only two types of people who are going to be restricted from playing: Cheap s**** and f***heads.


You said just now that not having to pay would be a great incentive to make a 3rd party server...

Thats just it isnt it; somebody making a suggesting that a bunch of idiots* can make a game anywhere on the same par as blizzard in any kind of timeframe is just f*****g insane.


Who said they would necessarily steal IP? Let alone get caught for it?

In any kind of timeframe? You just said 5-6 years.

The simple fact of the matter is that it has taken Blizzard, one of the best examples of a good software development company 6 years to get WoW where it is now


Emulating the server, is obviously very different to making one, let alone making a game.
Khel
Posted 08:10pm 01/2/04
People who want a low latency reliable server and can get that simply by purchasing the game and paying a monthly fee?


People who expect a game like WoW, or any mmorpg for free, are just kidding themselves and are better off not buying the game in the first place. I'm not going to start another "Paying a monthly fee to play games is good/bad" type argument, suffice to say the development cycle of an mmorpg is worlds apart from your average game and as such it requirements a much different pricing scheme.

There are "reputeable" established groups that only exist to make 3rd party servers for Blizzard games.


Making a server that emulates Battlenet is so AMAZINGLY different to making an mmorpg server, that the two dont even belong in the same conversation. All the game logic for games like Warcraft and Diablo is handled client side, so all you really have to do is emulate the network protocol and away you go. All (or at least 95%) of the game logic for WoW happens server side, so without the server, the client isn't anything more than a collection of pretty models and textures. There is no way to "emulate" the server, short of writing your own server from scratch, and has been outlined above, numerous times, this would take a very talented team a very long time to do, and realistically, its not going to happen.

In any kind of timeframe? You just said 5-6 years.


In 5 to 6 years you might be able to get something thats playable, but it will be a far cry from the actual WoW product Blizzard put out. I mean, how could anyone ever hope to create an emulated server that was anywhere near the quality of the real thing when Blizzard already have a 6 year headstart on them and already know everything about the inner workings of the game?

Do a bit of research and use a bit of common sense and you'll realise there is not going to be an emulated WoW server, its just not going to happen. Its taken a team 4 years to create an Everquest "emulator" and all you can do in that is create a character, spawn a monster and fight it.
clipto
Posted 08:47pm 01/2/04
Why are you directing this at me?

People who expect a game like WoW, or any mmorpg for free, are just kidding themselves and are better off not buying the game in the first place. I'm not going to start another "Paying a monthly fee to play games is good/bad" type argument, suffice to say the development cycle of an mmorpg is worlds apart from your average game and as such it requirements a much different pricing scheme.


Khel isnt this what I just said to typo in relation to his statement

If someone could make a copy of EQ that was free f*** who wouldnt play it.


The topic was to do with who has the motivation. Just a heads up but maybe you could read it yourself next time.

Making a server that emulates Battlenet is so AMAZINGLY different to making an mmorpg server, that the two dont even belong in the same conversation.


My point was that the organisation is already there, people know who to send packets to, people who are interested in helping know who to sign up with, stuff like that.

Do a bit of research and use a bit of common sense and you'll realise there is not going to be an emulated WoW server, its just not going to happen. Its taken a team 4 years to create an Everquest "emulator" and all you can do in that is create a character, spawn a monster and fight it.


Maybe you should do some research, you can start right here in this thread, because you appear to have misinterpreted quite a bit, and skipped over a lot of the rest.

When you are done "researching" maybe you could address my points on why EQ and WOW are not a valid comparison.

Then perhaps you could consider that at no stage was my point hinging on a emulated server anyway (with respect to it wouldn't be the first time source was stolen).

On the topic of the work load, I'm surprised you guys are ready to totally dismiss the amount of people who would be willing to contribute, consider the success of open source in general.
CSIRAC
Posted 08:52pm 01/2/04
Blizzard is going to sue the pants out of anybody found putting any kind of server stuff up.


yeh they sure showed warforge with the war3 and war3: TFT beta's aye....
Khel
Posted 09:08pm 01/2/04
There will never be an emulated version of the WoW server which comes anywhere near the actual Blizzard servers. Unless you're living in some fantasy land this is just common sense. Even outside of the years of work involved in coding it, there would be just as many years involved trying to even figure out how the game works before you could even START coding it.

It will never happen, end of story, discussion over.
typo
Posted 12:36am 02/2/04
clipto said; The point I was making, was that there has been a lot of motivation to make the server from the beginning. Not some time after the beta is released, it becomes wildly popular, and the only reason to make one is so you can play for free, NOT so you can actually play.


I dont understand how you can play for free but not actually play

Ignoring that bit however, I think there has always been motivation in every Emulator crew to make emulated servers from the beginning. It isnt like they suddenly went 4 years into EQ HEY LETS PLAY FROM HOME AND BE LEET!!@$%%!

Well so you say, but you have not addressed my key points: WOW is from a company that has a just about unequalled repuation NOW, it will be a massive game right away, it already is a massive game depending on your definition. Their beta is going to be very
retrictive. There are "reputeable" established groups that only exist to make 3rd party servers for Blizzard games.


When the first 50,000 accounts where sold in the first month of EQ I think that (for the time) broke every record in the book. I think you have to step back from your fantasy land and realise that there are dirty hacking f**** for any genre and every company. Blizzard is amazingly popular, but even in the day EQ was amazingly popular.

This isnt hacking War3, or War3:TFT, this is a MMO. They have a hacked sandbox, but reverse engineering everything to such detail that it is anyway the same game is such a insanely huge task that it took blizzard 5-6 years to do it, and designed and engineered it.

You said it was impossible, if you are now saying it can be done in a timeframe of 5 years thats a pretty big backflip. Especially considering my previous points, and god only knows how long this beta will even begin, let alone run for.


Ill admit that impossible is a overloaded word when it comes to technology. How about so improbable that we have a better chance of the moon exploding tomorrow, before a bunch of hackers release a game like WoW even with the hacked client.

The allowance I made essentially came in because it might be possible to make the game in 5-6 years because that is the kind of timeframe that Blizzard took to create it. Obviously it might be possible for someone else to replicate that in the same time period.

However the chances are really low. In EQ uber maths guys have gone though and worked out the entire combat system, they explicitly know everything about their stats, delay and damage ratios f*** everything. Yet with all of this knowledge they still cant make an EQ Emu that is worth playing.

We come back to incentive here, which you still have not addressed.


I did address it. You seem to believe that Blizzard have some magical power and only they (and valve) have it. SOE has a army of people who would love to hack their Gibson and make a EQEmu that was free to play on.

its common knowledge, you shouldnt expect people to google every little thing


The BnetD is a Server that emulates the Battle.net servers. Which by the way isnt the World of WarCraft Server. I didnt google for it, because I knew it hadnt happened, in fact I guessed you where either talking about the Bnet program or just talking out of your arse.

Besides, Vivendi just lost their entire source of HL2 not so long ago. Why is it so unthinkable that it could happen again? You did not even begin to address that.


The point I was trying to make (and you totally failed to see acknowledge it) is that Blizzard didnt lose its source code for the WoW server, f*** it didnt even lose the source code for the client. All it lost was a build of the alpha client, which all in all isnt a drastic thing.

Is it possible that the Server source code could be stolen Maybe, it isnt impossible that someone could. Then again it hasnt happened as of yet; otherwise we would all know about it. If not from Blizzard but from the people who hacked Blizzards Gibson.


Never stopped anyone (ok never stopped everyone) from doing it befor. Servers in Eastern Europe are particularly viable, considering the Europeans will be the last to play, and the history of somewhat reliable European 3rd party battle.net servers


Bnet is a emulator of Blizzards matching service. Do you understand the difference between emulating a matching service to emulating a MMORPG?

Sure they can sink into the former USSR block but currently it isnt there is it?

You said just now that not having to pay would be a great incentive to make a 3rd party server...
Who said they would necessarily steal IP? Let alone get caught for it?


What the f*** do you think the STOLEN F*****G ALPHA IS a late Christmas present? Even slightly retarded monkeys would understand that WoW is blizzards IP.

As for being caught they publicly advertise IRC chat meetings with the developers of the hacked servers. It wont take too long for that kind of stupidity to get caught. Heck what kind of sysadmin wouldnt own there arse in a second for a beta account.

In any kind of timeframe? You just said 5-6 years.


In case your tiny brain cant understand this point. I used 5-6 years to indicate that WoW would be dead or dying anyway (giving the history of MMOGs far it is the long end of the tooth really), and that creating something to be released at the end of its life cycle is utterly worthless.

Emulating the server, is obviously very different to making one, let alone making a game.


emulate

1. To strive to equal or excel, especially through imitation: an older pupil whose accomplishments and style I emulated.
2. To compete with successfully; approach or attain equality with.
3. Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system

Khel isnt this what I just said to typo in relation to his statement


If it is you expressed it in such a homosexual way that both khel and I didnt understand it.

The topic was to do with who has the motivation. Just a heads up but maybe you could read it yourself next time.


You seem to believe that there is no motivation to make EQ Emulator servers. You are wrong.

My point was that the organisation is already there, people know who to send packets to, people who are interested in helping know who to sign up with, stuff like that.


Still the differences in the two points of software trying to be hacked are so amazingly different you are going to need totally different crews. Most of the new crew have to be total Ninjas in their art.

When you are done "researching" maybe you could address my points on why EQ and WOW are not a valid comparison.


Your points? Your points are wild speculation that EQ emu people are not motivated to do it. I hate to burst your bubble but what do you think the people who are currently trying to get packets from the alpha build have been doing for the last few years? Attempting to hack DAoC, EQ and every other MMO out there.

Then perhaps you could consider that at no stage was my point hinging on a emulated server anyway (with respect to it wouldn't be the first time source was stolen).


F*** people have died from giant bits of other planets falling from the sky. Lets put that into the argument why dont we, it about as relevant.

On the topic of the work load, I'm surprised you guys are ready to totally dismiss the amount of people who would be willing to contribute, consider the success of open source in general.


There is a big difference about working in a collaborative community to release something that isnt illegal and wont get the s*** sued out of you. Most experts in their fields are not thieves wanting to steal Blizzards hard work, as they understand the levels of work required to put it all in place.

Lastly if it was so easy to make a game, then why havent there been amazing MMOGs released on the Torque engine (which can handle it). The point is that making normal games is slowly moving out of the range of Independents, do you really believe that a community of underground Russian ninja hackers in the realm of database engineering, software engineering, network engineering (and in multifaceted sub areas of those too boot), who have no fear of being sued to f*** (because they are Russian) are going to create a game as complex as a MMOG, when fully developed open sourced communities have a hard time making quake mods?

And you wonder why we think you live in a fantasy land?

last edited by typo at 00:36:06 02/Feb/04
clipto
Posted 02:39am 02/2/04
Typo, you have some f*****g nerve. Where do you get off continuing this discussion after khel says

discussion over.


Well? Where do you get off?

*laughs*

I dont understand how you can play for free but not actually play


Well thats ok, because I am clearly here to explain the most basic things to you. What I said was, the incentive is not to play for free, but to play. As in, as things stand now, most can't play, if they want to pay or not, unless a 3rd party server is made.

Ignoring that bit however, I think there has always been motivation in every Emulator crew to make emulated servers from the beginning. It isnt like they suddenly went 4 years into EQ HEY LETS PLAY FROM HOME AND BE LEET!!@$%%!


How did we go from "how much" motivation, to whether or not it exists?

When the first 50,000 accounts where sold in the first month of EQ I think that (for the time) broke every record in the book. I think you have to step back from your fantasy land and realise that there are dirty hacking f**** for any genre and every company. Blizzard is amazingly popular, but even in the day EQ was amazingly popular.


50k accounts does not seem like much to me at all by current standards, and that is what we are going by. The fact that you are comparing retail sales in the first month of EQ to beta applications for WOW augments my argument, "that many will be left out". I am not saying that EQ was not popular or successful, but that WOW will be initially popular from the befor even the "family and friends" alpha.

Ill admit that impossible is a overloaded word when it comes to technology.


Well how about rather than use "overloaded" words you just say what you mean?

I did address it. You seem to believe that Blizzard have some magical power and only they (and valve) have it. SOE has a army of people who would love to hack their Gibson and make a EQEmu that was free to play on.


This "army" pales in comparison to WOW even now, while the ultra restrictive alpha is going on. The fact that EQ has built up a huge following over years and not had one initally (since the first alpha) is the primary reason why its a poor comparison.

clipto said; Vivendi also said the warcraft III beta's server source was stolen, it was all lies but who is to say it wont happen?.


typo said; The BnetD is a Server that emulates the Battle.net servers. Which by the way isnt the World of WarCraft Server. I didnt google for it, because I knew it hadnt happened, in fact I guessed you where either talking about the Bnet program or just talking out of your arse.


You guessed I was talking about battle.net? I can't imagine why, considering I said that clearly. The issue here is that Vivendi/Blizzard has said that their source code for their servers has been stolen befor.

The point I was trying to make (and you totally failed to see acknowledge it) is that Blizzard didnt lose its source code for the WoW server, f*** it didnt even lose the source code for the client. All it lost was a build of the alpha client, which all in all isnt a drastic thing.


At that stage of the conversation, you were merely asking for linkage regarding Vivendi's claims that source was stolen. Not making any points whatsoever. No one said Blizzard lost the source for it's server or client, just that there was no great reason why it wouldn't, especially considering the history that I have brought up. As for "losing" a build of the alpha client? Rather strong words, they distributed it to at least a thousand people so it was a given it would be in the wild in no time.

Bnet is a emulator of Blizzards matching service. Do you understand the difference between emulating a matching service to emulating a MMORPG?


BnetD IS, and Warforge WAS, but Bnet was never a emulator, it was the legit product. My point here, as I have previously explained, was that people would have more confidence in these established teams, who have previously maintained solid reliable servers, in the face of dos attacks, legal proceedings, and internal bulls***. This increased confidence will make for a better potential server and more incentive to make it.

What the f*** do you think the STOLEN F*****G ALPHA IS a late Christmas present? Even slightly retarded monkeys would understand that WoW is blizzards IP.


Stolen alpha? All previous groups have operated under the pretense that they were making these servers with legit alpha/beta copies (Blizzard has distributed them) and are only for use with legit copies. Even when Blizzard/Vivendi were launching really quite spurious lawsuits against BnetD they never claimed that BnetD had no inherent right to make these servers, so I don't know where you get off doing it.

As for being caught they publicly advertise IRC chat meetings with the developers of the hacked servers. It wont take too long for that kind of stupidity to get caught. Heck what kind of sysadmin wouldnt own there arse in a second for a beta account.


The Warforge team has operated without any impediment from Blizzard since the beginning despite their best efforts. History is on my side.

In case your tiny brain cant understand this point. I used 5-6 years to indicate that WoW would be dead or dying anyway (giving the history of MMOGs far it is the long end of the tooth really), and that creating something to be released at the end of its life cycle is utterly worthless.


I read what you said, not what you claim to mean in retrospect.

create ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-t)
tr.v. created, creating, creates
To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
To invest with an office or title; appoint.
To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role


Quite different to emulate as you can see.

If it is you expressed it in such a homosexual way that both khel and I didnt understand it.


I will try and dumb this stuff down even more.

You seem to believe that there is no motivation to make EQ Emulator servers. You are wrong.


Nope. I said there is significantly less. You have still failed to argue that point.

Still the differences in the two points of software trying to be hacked are so amazingly different you are going to need totally different crews. Most of the new crew have to be total Ninjas in their art.


I never disputed that. I only ever said it would be beneficial for the name to already be there, and the incentive for the reputation to be upheld. The fact that the sand box was released under a known team and the fact that they are already getting packet dumps from the "friends and family" alpha users proves that.

Your points are wild speculation that EQ emu people are not motivated to do it.


For gods sake get it right. Not as motivated.

F*** people have died from giant bits of other planets falling from the sky. Lets put that into the argument why dont we, it about as relevant.


I thought it was more relevant considering the documented allegations that Blizzards server source code has been stolen befor, and that Vivendi's other company has lost massive amounts of source code befor. Especially considering that there will be many more servers for WOW than their were for other Blizzard products.

There is a big difference about working in a collaborative community to release something that isnt illegal and wont get the s*** sued out of you. Most experts in their fields are not thieves wanting to steal Blizzards hard work, as they understand the levels of work required to put it all in place.


Assuming that they do not steal the code it is not theft, as stated Blizzard have never tried to even insinuate otherwise, even when they tried to sue the s*** out of BnetD.

Lastly if it was so easy to make a game


It isnt. You and I agree on that. What we don't agree on is the incentive that exists to emulate a already created server.

And you wonder why we think you live in a fantasy land?


I really don't, I am quite confident it's because you are desperately grasping onto your misguided argument, and it's just easier to assume it's me who has the problem.
Draxy
Posted 04:28pm 02/2/04
I think there maybe Free WoW servers made. Judging on the history of blizzard game servers. It may be a bigger challenge than setting up a battle.net server, but hell, when I saw the emulated server that supported ladder play and icons for ROC/TFT I thought that woulda been too much for them.
If it happens it happens, no use arguing about it now is there?
Khel
Posted 04:32pm 02/2/04
Hehe, am I on candid camera?
typo
Posted 05:12pm 02/2/04

I think there maybe Free WoW servers made. Judging on the history of blizzard game servers. It may be a bigger challenge than setting up a battle.net server, but hell, when I saw the emulated server that supported ladder play and icons for ROC/TFT I thought that woulda been too much for them.


OMG maenz ladder play and icon support ... that is so much like a MMOG [/sarcasm]

The mathematics behind the ranking system has been open for eons, and many professional leagues and ladders use simular ranking structure. Adding that to the hacked server really wouldnt require the amazing amount of talent that any attempt of emulating a MMOG server really would require.


Can you understand that emulating a server pairing service is harder than making a league? Yet emulating a server paring service is nothing, and I really mean nothing compared to emulating a MMOG.

A MMOG isnt just one server running the entire game, heck it isnt even a single distributed server running on a server farm. It is a distributed workspace of many different services, databases and networked agents on a server farm. Some parts of the farm do things so abstracted from the game that you would probably need to be a total ninja or have backend access to work out what it is doing, if not both.

If it happens it happens, no use arguing about it now is there?


That is the s***tiest deflection in history. Lets make unsupported claims on a subject that you know nothing about, and then try and stop any more arguments by claiming that if it happens it happens, no use arguing over it

The point is that I could declare that you are going to discover exactly how much you love the homo c*** soon, but there is no point arguing about it now as it will either happen or not happen. That doesnt actually solve the problem that I just declared you a poofter loving c********* now, does it?

This thread has generated into clipto and now you talking as if emulating battlenet is on the same complexity as emulating a MMOG, obviously with no clue on exactly how complex MMOGs are to make.

Edited in "if not both."

last edited by typo at 17:12:31 02/Feb/04
clipto
Posted 09:48pm 02/2/04
What is deleting my posts?

This thread has generated into clipto and now you talking as if emulating battlenet is on the same complexity as emulating a MMOG, obviously with no clue on exactly how complex MMOGs are to make.


Perhaps you mean degenerated?. At no stage did I ever make that comparison. As a matter of fact I have taken pains to point out to you that I did not. You whole argument hinges on incorrect assumptions.

You're f*****g kidding right? You have no idea how huge EQ is.


Way to go, just take everything I say totally out of context. FYI, that was one of numerous points I made regarding motivation for making a 3rd party server. Why don't you read the thread befor you come in here with some annoyingly massive sig.

last edited by clipto at 21:48:45 02/Feb/04
Pharcyde
Posted 08:58pm 02/2/04
This "army" pales in comparison to WOW even now


You're f*****g kidding right? You have no idea how huge EQ is.
typo
Posted 11:39pm 02/2/04
Perhaps you mean degenerated?.


No.

At no stage did I ever make that comparison.


Do you know what a emulator is?

As a matter of fact I have taken pains to point out to you that I did not.


You suck at it.

You whole argument hinges on incorrect assumptions.


What that the EQ Emulator crew had a lot of motivation? Or that Battlenet legal issue is the same issue that is happening with the WoW alpha client?

Maybe it is the whole russian underground ninjas making wow.


Way to go, just take everything I say totally out of context.


Follows a trend of this thread

[clipto] the WoW russian underground cracking ninjas have more motivation than the EQ teams.

[voiceOfReason] Hey EQ teams worked at it for years and never made anything out of it. Pretty much everything that can be cracked has been cracked.

[clipto] no blizzard is total unique in the world only people who want to play blizzard games would want to do this. Besides Bliz said the WoW server side code was stolen then said naa not realy.

[voiceOfReason} what the f*** ever, and link or lies

[clipto] some unrelated link

[voiceOfReason] That is unreleated

FYI, that was one of numerous points I made regarding motivation for making a 3rd party server.


The motivation for the third party servers are the same for everybody. Playing the game without paying for it.
clipto
Posted 02:02am 03/2/04
Do you know what a emulator is?


As a matter of fact I have the definition right here.

You suck at it.


Not everyone can be expected to be able to communicate on a child like level as well as your kindegarden teacher.

What that the EQ Emulator crew had a lot of motivation?


That they logically did not have as much motivation as the Blizzard crew (not that they had no motivation). For a more robust explanation on why, consult my previous posts.

Or that Battlenet legal issue is the same issue that is happening with the WoW alpha client?


I never said it was the same issue. I said that there have been quite a few high profile thefts (alledged or otherwise) from Vivendi's subsidiaries befor. One of Half Life 2 alpha, and one of server source code for Battle.net (or so they say, and I have proven this in the aforementioned link). I never said the WOW server source was stolen, just that in light of recent aforementioned events, its certainly not out of the question.

[clipto] no blizzard is total unique in the world only people who want to play blizzard games would want to do this. Besides Bliz said the WoW server side code was stolen then said naa not realy.


What lies you speak. I said nothing of the sort. I gave specific reasons why the Blizzard crew has more motivation, I never claimed they said "WoW server side code was stolen", I certainly never even insinuated they ever backtracked on any claims they DID make.

The motivation for the third party servers are the same for everybody. Playing the game without paying for it.


I am quite impressed how you manage to block out so much. To play for free, is not the only motive, and as we have discussed, playing for free is hardly motivation at all. If you would like to know why their motives are different, then simply scroll up to where I explained it for you.
Draxy
Posted 08:16am 03/2/04
Im sorry Typo, you are coming across as a little kid there. I was merely stating that what some people think is a little too much effort can sometimes result in a surprise. I wasn't comparing how simple or alike the two were.

Just because you know a little about the structure of some MMORPG's (limited to Everquest-like setups), I think you are blinding yourself to the possibility that some people will actually put in the time and effort to provide the software needed to run a server and clients seperate from blizzard's official service.

And finally, the reason I said there is no point arguing about it is simple, you simply don't know what people are capable of. Also, your analogy of the... I can't remember the vulgar terms... is flawed in that you state it doesn't solve the 'problem'. In this particular case, there is no problem, merely a differing of viewpoints.

Anyway, I will leave you to trying to prove how smart you are (yet resorting to insults and sarcasm). I'm sure someone, somewhere actually cares about what you say.

last edited by Draxy at 08:16:51 03/Feb/04
Khel
Posted 09:38am 03/2/04
Just because you know a little about the structure of some MMORPG's (limited to Everquest-like setups)


There is no "Everquest-like setups", what typo described is pretty much a part of any mmorpg, the only difference being newer ones like WoW will be even MORE complex.

I think you are blinding yourself to the possibility that some people will actually put in the time and effort to provide the software needed to run a server and clients seperate from blizzard's official service.


I think you are blinding yourself to the sheer mammoth complexity of WoW vs Blizzard's existing games, and the insurmountable task of trying to emulate the server.

That they logically did not have as much motivation as the Blizzard crew (not that they had no motivation).


Why is it logical? Your whole argument seems to be based on the fact that everyone is more excited about Blizzard games than any other game. While this may be true for some, its certainly not true for everyone. There will be people who are fanatically dedicated to any mmorpg, whether its a Blizzard one or not. Just because you love Blizzard games and lots of other people here love Blizzard games, doesn't mean everyone loves Blizzard games. I'm sure there will be a group of very dedicated people who try very hard to emulate the WoW server, the same as there is groups of very dedicated people who try very hard to emulate the EQ server.

And finally, the reason I said there is no point arguing about it is simple, you simply don't know what people are capable of.


We're not talking about some magical battle of the human spirit overcoming all odds here, we're talking about writing code. With a bit of knowledge in the area, its reasonably easy to make an educated guess at what people are capable of, and how amazingly mind-numbingly difficult it would be. In fact, just the thought of having to code something like that makes me want to curl up into the foetal position and cry. It may seem easy from a conceptual point of view, standing back and going "Well they've emulated Battlenet, surely they can emulate WoW" but from a technical point of view its a mountain twice the size of Everest.

You can only throw so many coders at a project before you just start doing more harm than good. This army that has been talked about in previous posts sounds like a horrible way of coding to me. Heard that expression "Too many cooks spoil the broth"? Well its the same for coding. You throw 50 or even 100 different coders into a project like this and you'll end up with something so mis-matched and half-baked that it wouldn't be worth your time. Open source is a great idea in theory, but have you ever gone through the code for some Open Source programs? Its like vomit, or spaghetti, or vomit with spaghetti in it. In the end, its going to come down to a small group of maybe 4 or 5 guys who probably all know each other in real life and can get together and have real meetings and discussions.

I'm sure people will attempt it, I'm also equally sure that nobody will successfully be able to do it. Nothing has changed since the last attempt at an mmorpg emulator was made, people haven't suddenly gotten smarter, nobody still knows the first thing about the huge vast resovoirs of information a WoW server stores and calculates, so how is making a WoW server going to be any more plausible or likely than making an EQ one? I mean, with EQ they even KNOW a lot of that s*** already and can't do it, with WoW they're starting fresh which makes the job that much harder.
clipto
Posted 03:08pm 03/2/04
what typo described is pretty much a part of any mmorpg, the only difference being newer ones like WoW will be even MORE complex.


UO could do it because so much of it was on the client it wasn't funny, not to mention that it was very transparent in how it did things. More modern MMOGs are not transparent, and much more complicated.


I've noticed a lot of what you say is directly contradicted by yourself later on.

Why is it logical?


It has been mentioned time and again in my argument, I have even given one or two reasons in this very post.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the fact that everyone is more excited about Blizzard games than any other game.


No. No. No. That is not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on the fact that you can't play WOW for love or money. You can play EQ however. The only motivation to make a EQ server is so you can save a few bucks. Not so with WOW. You have failed to address this point (and others) time and again, and if you feel like doing it now. Please scroll up and read a more robust post on the topic.

from a technical point of view its a mountain twice the size of Everest.


Hundreds climb everest every year. What a poor analogy.

You can only throw so many coders at a project before you just start doing more harm than good. This army that has been talked about in previous posts sounds like a horrible way of coding to me.


That is one of the reasons why in the past there have been more groups formed, not just bigger ones.

last edited by clipto at 15:07:18 03/Feb/04

last edited by clipto at 15:08:16 03/Feb/04
Khel
Posted 11:28am 04/2/04
Hundreds climb everest every year. What a poor analogy.


Thats why I said "twice the size", or did you conviniently decide to skip over that bit?

I've noticed a lot of what you say is directly contradicted by yourself later on.


You're good at not actually reading what I say aren't you. What I said was "what typo described is pretty much a part of any mmorpg". Notice how I didn't say its absoultely a part of every mmorpg ever made? Thats because theres always one or two retarded exceptions to the rule. UO was not a good example of how to make an mmorpg and really holds very little similarities, on a technical level, to any of the current crop such as EQ, DAOC, AC2, SWG or WoW.

It has been mentioned time and again in my argument, I have even given one or two reasons in this very post.


So you believe its logical they'll make an emulated server, because WoW isn't out yet and people want to play it? You do realise it will most likely be out sometime in the next 6 months, so you seriously expect some group to get a full working emulated WoW server up in 6 months? Based on Alpha or Beta code which will probably change quite radically between now and release? If so, you're even more naieve than I first thought.


typo
Posted 02:24pm 04/2/04
I said nothing of the sort.


Yep my bad, I misread your post.

Even then the differences between emulating bnets matching service and a MMOG is vastly different.

I was merely stating that what some people think is a little too much effort can sometimes result in a surprise.


Id be pretty surprised if the moon exploded too.

Just because you know a little about the structure of some MMORPG's (limited to Everquest-like setups),


Actually my experience goes a little further than that. I have seen Emulators for pretty much every effort that has been made so far. I only used EQEmu and UO as my examples because they are the two best Emulators so far.

Also I have seen a couple of the MMOG engines that the Australian Centre for Interaction Design has (well at least talked to a couple of the people who helped make them). That doesnt include the MMOG engine that Auran is building though, but seeing that they are working with the Interaction Design centre next year you never know.

I think you are blinding yourself to the possibility that some people will actually put in the time and effort to provide the software needed to run a server and clients seperate from blizzard's official service.


I just dont think it is possible. Essentially the problem boils down to this:

Guess what algorithm (out of every possible algorithm) a constantly changing number is from. To make it even more interesting the number not only constantly changes, but the algorithm that generated it is also constantly changing.

More complexly, it is possible in the furthest reaches of the word possible that some group of people could make something as complex as WoW using only the clients engine.

But lets really look at what they have.
They have the graphics engine, and some network triggers.

Lets look at what they dont have.
The actual game.

Lets look at where the bits they dont have most likely are.
Scattered over 20+ machines, with some machines working specifically only for this server others working for all of the servers. Heck there is nothing really stopping the machines being dynamically allocated, but that probably isnt the case.

Trying to guess the remaining 80% of the game based of really vague clues (which is a understatement) is so hard I dont think you understand.

Now because the example used a few times was Bnet services that where hacked up lets look at that.

What did the hackers have.
The entire of the basic game, including the ability to play multiplayer games against each other.

What didnt they have.
A matching and ladder service (battle.net) that responded to a limited set of specific and straight forward commands.

Lets look where the bits they dont have where.
They where on a single distributed service, which in this case acted as big ass server (with a number of servers just like that).

Lets look at how they found out what to do.
- Some guy would press the join channel button, and then capture every single packet that came back.

- They would send those packets off to the server and work out what information was the client sending (based off of there own packets), and what information was the server information

- Eventually, and really not to any great deal of work they discovered what commands expected what kind of replies.

The ladder system is pretty easy to do after you work out the first half.

Can you understand the difference? Can you see why the chances are so remote that it is almost laughable to suggest that someone can?

Also if the team is so amazingly talented, with so many amazingly hardcore ninja engineers then why dont they grab the torque engine or f*** make it themselves (a 3d engine is nothing on a MMOG).

Really that is what is being said here a pack of individuals so insanely hardcore that they could easily create a MMOG in its entirety are going to hack WoW because they can.

Dont get me wrong, there are going to be model hacks, and ShowWoW clients and all sorts of s*** for WoW. Just like every Multiplayer game gets model hacks right now, and single player games get CD key cracks.

Development and publishing companies can not win in those odds.

The server side solution to a MMOG is insanely complex. The class reference for one of the ones at Uni was so amazingly huge that still have problems comprehending it.

And finally, the reason I said there is no point arguing about it is simple, you simply don't know what people are capable of.


I have a pretty good idea.

Also, your analogy of the... I can't remember the vulgar terms...


My analogy was that you could be a poof loving c*********.

is flawed in that you state it doesn't solve the 'problem'. In this particular case, there is no problem, merely a differing of viewpoints.


That is what this thread is right here, a difference of viewpoints.

Anyway, I will leave you to trying to prove how smart you are


Two points:

I dont need to prove how smart I am.

If anything for the vast majority of this thread I was trying to point out that the two teams attempting to hack Blizzards Gibson still dont know what they are trying to do. Either do you.

(yet resorting to insults and sarcasm).


Sometimes it is the only way to wake someone up.

I'm sure someone, somewhere actually cares about what you say


You cared enough to come back and defend your post. More than that you rezzed a old post that had been left to die.

There is no "Everquest-like setups", what typo described is pretty much a part of any mmorpg, the only difference being newer ones like WoW will be even MORE complex.


Wow I didnt even consider the statement in that light. Actually I think if you look at EQs server make up it isnt exactly what I described, IIRC the EQ model is one service which is essentially a DIKU Mud and a bunch of servers that hold a number of zones. EQs server hosting was really limited and I think we have grown past that in so many ways.

I believe that the Emu team tracked the early work of the EQ designers and discovered that they used Diku or some other Mud as the basis for there server, it would throw up what zones people had to moved to.

Each sub-server held a n number of zones. That number depended on how populated the servers where, and it is for that reason that two or three zones could crash on one server for a long time but everywhere else was fine (only one or two boxes bit the dust). It also explains why it took so long to patch (they had to patch a billion different boxes)

Newer MMOGs, ones that dont use the zone idea use a Agent ideal. Essentially a master agent will tell clients which sub-agents to talk to, and tell sub-agents which areas they have to control. That is why you can have amazingly huge land masses, because if someone isnt actually in the zone then there is pretty much nothing, clocking cycles on it.

The agent model is much more complex, but it gives much greater rewards. It gives more flexibility in the game and hopefully means that you dont have to worry about zones crashing or becoming overly popular.

code for some Open Source programs? Its like vomit, or spaghetti, or vomit with spaghetti in it.


Or smelly s*** and vomit with spaghetti in it.

I've noticed a lot of what you say is directly contradicted by yourself later on.


I looked at your two quotes, and I dont get where I was contradicting my self. UO is much older than EQ, and UO is essentially Ultima 7 with a bit of s***** networking attached.

The entire game is practically client side, with server side checking the math to stop (or limit) exploits.

Thats why UO could do it but EQ couldnt be done (it was older and more transparent).

Which is pretty much what is quoted

UO could do it because so much of it was on the client it wasn't funny, not to mention that it was very transparent in how it did things. More modern MMOGs are not transparent, and much more complicated.


No. No. No. That is not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on the fact that you can't play WOW for love or money. You can play EQ however. The only motivation to make a EQ server is so you can save a few bucks. Not so with WOW. You have failed to address this point (and others) time and again, and if you feel like doing it now. Please scroll up and read a more robust post on the topic.


We cant play beta for about 6 more months at the longest (open beta maybe before then).

I dont think you can get a MMOG in 5-6 years from reverse engineering it let alone 5-6 months.

You're good at not actually reading what I say aren't you. What I said was "what typo described is pretty much a part of any mmorpg". Notice how I didn't say its absoultely a part of every mmorpg ever made? Thats because theres always one or two retarded exceptions to the rule. UO was not a good example of how to make an mmorpg and really holds very little similarities, on a technical level, to any of the current crop such as EQ, DAOC, AC2, SWG or WoW.


Also what I described was a older MMORPG than EQ.


fixed mis-quote

last edited by typo at 14:24:57 04/Feb/04
typo
Posted 03:04pm 04/2/04
It has been mentioned time and again in my argument, I have even given one or two reasons in this very post.


Apparently your only reason is that they really want to play WoW, thus they will hack it and play it.

Logically the only way one could actually play WoW is if they had a near 100% emulated server. Would people actually want to play a copy of War3 with non release graphics, missing sounds and no way to actually engage in the game (eg fights or starts games)? People might download it, go wow that was cool or ass, but that isnt playing the game they really want to play.

Not to mention that really, really wanting to do something doesnt mean it will come to fruition. A Goal, determination, planning, talent and practiced skill is required to get to get to a worthy goal, and while they have a goal, and you believe that they have the determination, I dont think they have the planning, talent or practiced skills required to formulate to that goal.
Xyzzy
Posted 03:13pm 04/2/04

No. No. No. That is not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on the fact that you can't play WOW for love or money. You can play EQ however. The only motivation to make a EQ server is so you can save a few bucks. Not so with WOW. You have failed to address this point (and others) time and again, and if you feel like doing it now. Please scroll up and read a more robust post on the topic.


I could be wrong... i'm not exactly part of the EQ Hacks movement but my understanding of the thing (from back since when i first heard about it) has always been that it's reason for being is because at a fundamental level EQ sucks.

Now i know i'm gonna get b****ed at for this but lets be honest... all of these people play neverquest because it's simply the best of a f*****g pitiful lot. Thus the primary goal of the third party EQ server was to have something at home for you and your friends to play with and make up your own decent quests.

Comparing the beta for everquest(which is, at worst, the second major mmorg ever) with the beta for pretty much any other massively multiplayer game is ill advised. Hell i don't even think it HAD an open beta... if it did it wasn't high on the radar(In fact i believe it was a closed beta since they mailed you CDs). Compare this to AC2 which was more populated in beta than in release. Even if Blizzard was some bum f*** company out of auckland who'd never written anything in their centrelink funded life, the beta for WoW would still be bigger than the beta for EQ.

I think the more interesting point re: motivation for external servers is that in 6 months or so, when stormcraft/abyss have nothing to show and the rest of the world has real world servers... everyone will stop caring. Seriously... just replicating the several thousand quests it's going to have on release is going to be a mammoth effort. And because of those quests, WoW has a real chance at being a FUN mmorg. and so long as the players are all having fun then why do we need to hack a server?

As to the possibility of getting a live server... until open beta occurs, they have BUCKLEYS chance of getting anything more complex than wandering around happening like it will in the game. As has been said many times, all the code for that exists on the server side and the only way they're going to be able to replicate that is through reverse engineering. Reverse engineering is only going to be possible through someone working on the server having an active account. Even people sending in sniffed packets will be of limited help. If the engineer can't personally parse down all the variables to the smallest part so that the network packets he's getting are focused on what he's trying to emulate right now, it's gonna take LOTS of packets. And from the repeated calls for network packets on their forums... i don't think anyone is biting.

As to the whole "they've lost other source code so they can lose the wow server" thing... It's my understanding that _Vivendi_ didn't lose half life 2's source code, _Valve_ did. In particular... one valve employee got hit with a specially crafted EMail virus that created a back door onto his system which allowed the attacker access to his files and passwords. I fail to see how this has any bearing at all on Blizzard other than to make them paranoid.

Jon
Azaria
Posted 03:13pm 04/2/04
I will eat my own s*** if someone other than blizzard runs a WoW server.
Xyzzy
Posted 03:30pm 04/2/04

I will eat my own s*** if someone other than blizzard runs a WoW server.


Even assuming the virtually impossible, that someone manages to technically create a server. NO-ONE is going to be hosting it for more than a week(and if it lasts that long i'll be shocked and amazed). The only way for the project to be even kind of viable is for it's focus to be a home server (probably LAN based).

Jon
typo
Posted 03:41pm 04/2/04
Well thats ok, because I am clearly here to explain the most basic things to you. What I said was, the incentive is not to play for free, but to play. As in, as things stand now, most can't play, if they want to pay or not, unless a 3rd party server is made.


The game isnt finished yet. How can you play a game that isnt finished?

Once the game is finished, then everybody can play!

50k accounts does not seem like much to me at all by current standards, and that is what we are going by.


Ok right now EQ has had over 2 million sales and has currently 420,000 current subscribers. WoW has 0 of both. The next biggest American based MMOG is Daoc with something like 150k current subscribers and nowhere near as many overall sales.

The fact that you are comparing retail sales in the first month of EQ to beta applications for WOW augments my argument, "that many will be left out". I am not saying that EQ was not popular or successful, but that WOW will be initially popular from the befor even the "family and friends" alpha.


because you obviously had no idea. EQ was huge, it had a huge following at the time, f*** most people didnt want to give it ago because they didnt want to pay for services.

Its forums where overflowing with people. Discounting EQ because it was the second oldest MMOG around is taking the wrong point of view on it. The indication that they only expected 70k in the first 2 years, and 50k in the first 6 months is a good indication that the game was much more popular than anybody expected

Well how about rather than use "overloaded" words you just say what you mean?


Because, really when you get down to it. I dont think they can do it. Impossible is one of those words that people use and then 50 years form now technology changes and makes it possible.

Everybody uses the term thats impossible for things that are in all practicality impossible. The fact of the matter is that there may be some possible way that it could be done, however there is also some possibility that the moon could explode, killing us all.

This "army" pales in comparison to WOW even now, while the ultra restrictive alpha is going on. The fact that EQ has built up a huge following over years and not had one initally (since the first alpha) is the primary reason why its a poor comparison.


What you cant seem to understand is that the numbers of people playing EQ at the start where so huge they didnt think that there where that many people who would ever want to play. EQ at the time was the newest biggest game on the block, what made people on the net excited was this new genre.

No American based MMOG has sold as many copies of EQ, you cant just discount it because here and now there are more WoW fans than EQ. Where do you think a big chunk of 2,000,000 people who are going to be buying WoW first cut their teeth in this genre? EQ.

In fact where do you think the lessons learned from hacking new MMOGs came from? The EQ hacking teams and the AC hacking teams, thats who.

BnetD IS, and Warforge WAS, but Bnet was never a emulator, it was the legit product. My point here, as I have previously explained, was that people would have more confidence in these established teams, who have previously maintained solid reliable servers, in the face of dos attacks, legal proceedings, and internal bulls***. This increased confidence will make for a better potential server and more incentive to make it.


Ethernal Quest and EQEmu people have had EQ emulated servers (if you can really call them emulated) for over 3 years. In various states of playability, in fact I remember just after I first started playing they had a Multiplayer sandbox where you could walk around zones, summon mobs and nothing else.

The point is that you discount what EQ Emu have with no knowledge on the situation at all.

Also you can have a Emulator that is a legit product.

Stolen alpha? All previous groups have operated under the pretense that they were making these servers with legit alpha/beta copies (Blizzard has distributed them) and are only for use with legit copies. Even when Blizzard/Vivendi were launching really quite spurious lawsuits against BnetD they never claimed that BnetD had no inherent right to make these servers, so I don't know where you get off doing it.


The WoW alpha client was released despite every body being on a NDA. That makes it stolen IP.

The Warforge team has operated without any impediment from Blizzard since the beginning despite their best efforts. History is on my side


That is because they didnt generate revenue from battle.net it was a constant cost.

The simple matter that a number of places involved with the WoW server emulation have already gotten a bad boy letter from Blizzard legal indicates that your history lesson isnt over.
I will try and dumb this stuff down even more.


Maybe you need real points, instead of just fanboi love?

Nope. I said there is significantly less. You have still failed to argue that point.


I have argued that point and you discount it with ignorance.

I never disputed that. I only ever said it would be beneficial for the name to already be there, and the incentive for the reputation to be upheld.


As SOE has proven, and many other professional bodies prove on a daily basis, incentive means nothing if you dont have the talent, or the skills.

The fact that the sand box was released under a known team


Which consist of a heap of new people.

Oh and the sandbox at this time is pretty simplistic. As I said higher up I read about the same kind of sandbox soon after release of EQ (for EQ). That isnt to say that it took a few months to be released, it just wasnt advertised on EQs forums by the people doing it.

and the fact that they are already getting packet dumps

They are already screaming out for more, because they cant make heads or tails of them

from the "friends and family"


Still gay.

alpha users proves that.


Firstly it doesnt prove s***. It is a opportunity, that people took. If it was poofterLovingC*********s INC and they knew a few people in Alpha and had any kind of basic network programming skill they could have done it.

Assuming that they do not steal the code it is not theft, as stated Blizzard have never tried to even insinuate otherwise, even when they tried to sue the s*** out of BnetD.


The NDA, and the ELUA Agreement says that the people with that software cant give it away, and cant use it to engineer s***.

So they stole the client.

What we don't agree on is the incentive that exists to emulate a already created server.


Possibly hundreds and hundreds of servers.
clipto
Posted 07:57pm 04/2/04
Thats why I said "twice the size", or did you conviniently decide to skip over that bit?


No I read it, and its still a s*** analogy.

Thats because theres always one or two retarded exceptions to the rule.


So when you are proved wrong with an example or two this is your response?

So you believe its logical they'll make an emulated server, because WoW isn't out yet and people want to play it?


No, and I am done restating my points in clear english again and again, only so you can reinterperet them again and again. You will have to re-read (did you read it the first time?) the posts.

You do realise it will most likely be out sometime in the next 6 months, so you seriously expect some group to get a full working emulated WoW server up in 6 months?


No, and no. I have no advance knowledge on the time frame, but given that the beta has not even begun, I am assuming nothing. I certainly never said or implied there would be a "full working emulated WoW server up in 6 months".

Even then the differences between emulating bnets matching service and a MMOG is vastly different.


Who cares? How is this relevant? Do you realise that your argument has hinged on wrong assumptions from the beginning yet?

Really that is what is being said here a pack of individuals so insanely hardcore that they could easily create a MMOG in its entirety are going to hack WoW because they can.


Who said that? It certainly wasn't me. Perhaps you could provide a quote instead of your interpretation of what was said?

I looked at your two quotes, and I dont get where I was contradicting my self.


Well it just can't possibly be made any clearer.

UO is much older than EQ, and UO is essentially Ultima 7 with a bit of s***** networking attached.


UO is a MMOG, it applies. If by saying "pretty much" you think you are leaving yourself in a position to disregard contradictions later on then you are simply wrong.

We cant play beta for about 6 more months at the longest (open beta maybe before then).


Many will never be able to play legit WOW beta. Regardless you are at best making an educated guess on that time frame. It really calls into question what else you are guessing about.

I dont think you can get a MMOG in 5-6 years from reverse engineering it let alone 5-6 months.


I never said it would need to be completed in 6 months.

Apparently your only reason is that they really want to play WoW, thus they will hack it and play it.


Wrong. As has been proven again and again.

Comparing the beta for everquest(which is, at worst, the second major mmorg ever) with the beta for pretty much any other massively multiplayer game is ill advised.


Agreed.

As to the whole "they've lost other source code so they can lose the wow server" thing... It's my understanding that _Vivendi_ didn't lose half life 2's source code, _Valve_ did.


If I ever said "they" it was after specifically stating (at least twice in prior posts), that Vivendi's subsidiary did. I also said that Vivendi alledged that Blizzard's battle.net server source was stolen. I mainly brought up Valve because it was an example of a major company losing a lot of source.

The game isnt finished yet. How can you play a game that isnt finished?


Its called the "family and friends" alpha.

Ok right now EQ has had over 2 million sales and has currently 420,000 current subscribers.


Not relevant to the text you quoted. By "current standards" I clearly meant comparing Blizzards beta to EQ's beta. It makes no sense to compare Blizzard's beta to EQ current numbers. We have been through this.

because you obviously had no idea. EQ was huge, it had a huge following at the time, f*** most people didnt want to give it ago because they didnt want to pay for services.


This makes no sense, the EQ beta was huge? (in comparison to the WOW beta). People didn't want to give it a chance because they would have to pay for the beta? If you are talking about when it went retail then I don't know why because comparing the beta's was bad, but comparing the EQ retail to the WOW beta is worse.

Its forums where overflowing with people. Discounting EQ because it was the second oldest MMOG around is taking the wrong point of view on it. The indication that they only expected 70k in the first 2 years, and 50k in the first 6 months is a good indication that the game was much more popular than anybody expected


This is absurd. I am not "discounting EQ", I am saying that the emulator teams make a poor comparison. It sounds like you are upset because you think I am writing off EQ.

Ethernal Quest and EQEmu people have had EQ emulated servers (if you can really call them emulated) for over 3 years.


Did they have any history befor EQ even went into a closed alpha? That is the point I am making, not how well they have done 3 years later.

The point is that you discount what EQ Emu have with no knowledge on the situation at all.


What their status is now is not relevant, their status when EQ was in alpha is whats relevant, even then its only relevant to my point that its a poor comparison.

The WoW alpha client was released despite every body being on a NDA. That makes it stolen IP.


That makes the stolen and pirated copies stolen IP. Which is not relevant to to my statement regarding the groups operating under the pretense that only legit copies were involved.

That is because they didnt generate revenue from battle.net it was a constant cost.


In Vivendi's previously linked claims, it was stated that they believed the 3rd party servers purpose was to make a profit in the future. Vivendi went to some measure of trouble to shut down Warforge, and were completely unsuccesful.

Maybe you need real points, instead of just fanboi love?


Like accusing you of "fanboi love"? Thanks but I will stick to relevant factual points.

I have argued that point and you discount it with ignorance.


Your "argument" "pretty much" (lol) exclusively involved some EQ post beta numbers which were irrelevant.

As SOE has proven, and many other professional bodies prove on a daily basis, incentive means nothing if you dont have the talent, or the skills.


I never said it did, you constantly bring up irrelevant points in an attempt to skirt the issue at hand.

Which consist of a heap of new people.


Right, so they get the benefit of the known name, and the clued up new talent. As this conversation drags on I notice that you guys appear to actually give a s*** about EQ and those that try and emulate it. I can assue you I couldn't care less about who is running the WOW side of things or propping up WOW if it turns out to be unworthwhile, maybe you guys should be less emotional about your favorite group of people, it appears to be clouding your judgement.

They are already screaming out for more, because they cant make heads or tails of them


Another baseless assumption that is not even relevant to the point it tries to address.

"Friends and Family" Still gay.


Still the official name that describes well who the alpha is open to. Perhaps you should write Blizzard and give them your opinion though.

Firstly it doesnt prove s***. It is a opportunity, that people took. If it was poofterLovingC*********s INC and they knew a few people in Alpha and had any kind of basic network programming skill they could have done it.


There is a very limited number of people in the Friends and Family alpha, why do you think it is named so, because Blizzard like names that "sound gay"? Being known is beneficial because its more likely that you will be trusted to live up to your end of the bargain.

The NDA, and the ELUA Agreement says that the people with that software cant give it away, and cant use it to engineer s***.

So they stole the client.


Well rather than go by your opinion, I think I will stick with the interpretation of Vivendi's paralegal team. You will note that in their flagrantly excessive claims of BnedD's wrong doing with regard to the WC3 beta, they never said they had no right to make a server from beta copies.
Khel
Posted 08:15pm 04/2/04
Heh, I think I've figured it out, clipto doesn't actually have an argument, or even a point, hes just trying to make us think he does. Whenever hes questioned on what his actual point or or to explain his argument he replies with

No, and I am done restating my points in clear english again and again


or

Do you realise that your argument has hinged on wrong assumptions from the beginning yet?


or

Well it just can't possibly be made any clearer.


or how about

Wrong. As has been proven again and again.


So where is all this magical proof you talk of? And where have you clearly stated your points? All I've seen so far is a series of posts from you claiming that you're tired of explaining yourself, yet, you never do. Why not make one definitive post that actually explains your argument instead of just dismissing everything everyone else says out of hand without any sort of rebuttle? You've spent more time picking on the way we've phrased our sentences, or our choice of words, than actually addressing the argument at hand.

If the best argument you can come up with is along the lines "Hah! You said impossible in this post, but then over here, you said it'd be really hard! OMG I win you contradicted yourself!" then theres really no reason for you even to be posting here.
clipto
Posted 08:27pm 04/2/04
Heh, I think I've figured it out, khel doesn't actually have an argument, or even a point, hes just trying to make me think he does.

Whenever I make a valid post he posts irrelvant trash that has no bearing on the conversation. I then have to quickly restate the point in the rebuttal, and he then does the same thing all over again.

I think I have figured him out though, I'll just tell him to re-read my original post until he understands it.

Although in addition to that I may come up with something extreemly basic and compact, so even he can not take it out of context.
Khel
Posted 08:52pm 04/2/04
Yep, there you go again.
shad
Posted 09:20pm 04/2/04
Can someone summarise the points for me, read a page and got bored.


last edited by shad at 21:20:58 04/Feb/04
Xyzzy
Posted 09:33pm 04/2/04

Can someone summarise the points for me, read a page and got bored.


I think the point got lost in the underflow somewhere... however i think that clipto is ascerting that magical Russian ninja engineers(probably with dragon abilities.. because dragons make any story better) are going to reverse engineer the Worlds of Warcraft servers and logically the only reason that the EQ EMU people didn't is becasue they didn't have enough motivation.

I think Typo and khel's point is that Clipto is living in a magical fairy land and that the magical russian ninja engineers(who are dragons remember) aren't gonna bother because their only reason to is because we can't play beta yet (which means they have about 6 months to do so) and thus in 6 months this thread stops because we're all playing WoW on blizzard servers.

Oh and ya mum.

Jon
Jerds
Posted 09:52pm 04/2/04
Right-O, you lot.
shad
Posted 09:54pm 04/2/04
I am just wondering what state the server code is. EQEMU seems to be a hacked up client more than anything that is made to run like a server.
Xyzzy
Posted 09:56pm 04/2/04

I am just wondering what state the server code is. EQEMU seems to be a hacked up client more than anything that is made to run like a server.


Last i heard the server emulation team got owned by SOE legal and stopped work. That was a fairly long time ago tho so don't quote me on that.

Jon
typo
Posted 10:41pm 04/2/04
No, and no. I have no advance knowledge on the time frame, but given that the beta has not even begun, I am assuming nothing. I certainly never said or implied there would be a "full working emulated WoW server up in 6 months".


Umm

That is not what my argument is based on. My argument is based on the fact that you can't play WOW for love or money. You can play EQ however. The only motivation to make a EQ server is so you can save a few bucks. Not so with WOW.


The obvious conclusion to your argument is that the game must apparently be ready to play before everybody can play WoW, either though open Beta or because it is released.

I am done restating my points in clear english again and again


The point is; that your points are not clear. First you say that the reason that one of the major reasons that they will reverse engineer the server is because that people cant play it at the moment. Then you essentially say that isnt your argument at all. I mean no wonder we are confused.

Who cares? How is this relevant? Do you realise that your argument has hinged on wrong assumptions from the beginning yet?


My assumptions of having some idea how a MMOG is actually built compaired your belief that some guys who made some s*** once will do stuff.

Hmm.

UO is a MMOG, it applies. If by saying "pretty much" you think you are leaving yourself in a position to disregard contradictions later on then you are simply wrong.


The point of UO being bought into this argument is that it is the only MMOG to have the server side cracked. The only reason this is the case is because it was almost totally client side. Sure it could apply, assuming that WoW was totally client side, the problem is that the WoW isnt client side it is server side (apart from the graphics engine and triggers).

Also if you are going to use inverted commas to quote someone, it might be polite to actually quote the selected text.

In text quoted

UO is much older than EQ, and UO is essentially Ultima 7 with a bit of s***** networking attached.


This is the reason they could crack the server code, most of the game was client side. This is the same reason that Diablo, Diablo2, War3 are all crackable. The game is client side, not server side. It wasnt offered as some sort of excuse to disregard contradictions, it was offered to show you one MMOG that had its Gibson hacked, and why that happened.

Many will never be able to play legit WOW beta.


The open beta is going to be available to all comers. Blizzard has announced this many times. So right at this moment it is as strict as almost every other closed beta (DAoC, AC2, AC, AO the list goes on), and it will get more and more open as time goes on.

Also because you jump on people for getting this opinion of your argument; When justify the hacking of WoWs server with a example like many will never be able to play legit WoW beta, what you are insinuating, if you like it or not, is that people will be able to play the emulated server before the end of beta.

I mean really, if the server emulator was released after the beta period had ended, then this whole line of argument (restrictive beta) is mute and a deflection from the real argument.

Regardless you are at best making an educated guess on that time frame.


Youre right it is an educated guess, but the signs are indicating that the game wont take that much longer to release. Firstly Blizzard have started releasing some staff from the project, secondly they have stated that they plan to release this year, thirdly beta will start soon, fourthly from all reports the alpha is more stable and more complete than any MMOG in its first year or two of operation and lastly they are starting to play mind games with box art and publishing details.

Even at the longest, unless sum amazing fundamental bug is found, the game will be released this year. A 7 year development cycle is getting crazy, and to boot they have pretty much stated it will be released this year.

Oh and according to the Blizzard fans, the last four Blizzard games have been released on June 6th.

So at the worst add 3-4 months to my call. Woo

It really calls into question what else you are guessing about.


If educated guesses are not valid in this thread then nobody should be posting here.

At least I have seen MMOG engines, and I am not sprouting that pirate Russian ninja engineer hacker dragons powering up to be super sayans will over come the amazing technical difficulties because they are really keen.
As has been proven again and again.


You have offered no proof, only opinion.

its called the "family and friends" alpha.


Ok, lets go all the way back to the start.

The Alpha client contains a graphics engine and some network triggers.

It contains 0% of the game mechanics, the other 100% is on the server.



Hmm.

>
50k accounts does not seem like much to me at all by current standards, and that is what we are going by.

Ok right now EQ has had over 2 million sales and has currently 420,000 current subscribers. WoW has 0 of both. The next biggest American based MMOG is Daoc with something like 150k current subscribers and nowhere near as many overall sales.


The point is that at the time it was a fantastic amount of players for the time. You seem to just offhandedly remove anything that doesnt flow along with cliptos point of view without considering it.

By "current standards" I clearly meant comparing Blizzards beta to EQ's beta. It makes no sense to compare Blizzard's beta to EQ current numbers. We have been through this.


That is like saying there is no point at looking at the figures for anything that happened 6 years ago. However there is a lot of things that you can learn from that kind of data.

5+ years ago when EQ was released, it was huge. The fanfare coming from it was totally amazing, and even then they thought they would be lucky to get 50k accounts in 2 years of operation. The servers rapidly grew to 70k in a few months.

The validity of this point isnt just directed towards this single quoted text, but to a large section of your argument on why EQ Emulators apparently failed. You disregard all prior efforts because of motivation, the point here was a previous MMOG had been emulated (UO (for reasons mentioned above)) there was pride, there where people, there was talent but they lacked the knowledge skill to bring it all together.

This makes no sense, the EQ beta was huge? (in comparison to the WOW beta). People didn't want to give it a chance because they would have to pay for the beta? If you are talking about when it went retail then I don't know why because comparing the beta's was bad, but comparing the EQ retail to the WOW beta is worse.


These comparisons come from you and your constant push towards that the WoW cracking teams have more motivation to do it. Your two points are essentially the mystical code ninjas reputation and the amount of people who really want to play beta but cant.

The point of EQ beta, and early retail is that there was a f***load of people who wanted to play EQ, the fan base was huge, and they had heaps of motivation to make it. It just wasnt feasible to do so.

Did they have any history befor EQ even went into a closed alpha? That is the point I am making, not how well they have done 3 years later.


Some of the cracking teams came from UO. So yes some of them have a lot of c*** to show off.

In Vivendi's previously linked claims, it was stated that they believed the 3rd party servers purpose was to make a profit in the future. Vivendi went to some measure of trouble to shut down Warforge, and were completely unsuccesful.


They got that idea because people on the warforge forum wanted to do exactly that.

Like accusing you of "fanboi love"? Thanks but I will stick to relevant factual points.


I am not the one who believes in magical ninja fairies.

Your "argument" "pretty much" (lol) exclusively involved some EQ post beta numbers which were irrelevant.


My argument is based on the technical mechanics of doing this. My research thesis this year has been on mobile ad-hoc networks, so I have been doing quite a bit of research on a bunch of information in that field, one of which is distributed computing over a network farm.

If you read though the posts again, you would see that the points about EQ beta and EQ post beta only appeared because you have this belief that nobody else in the world could be as have the same motivation as the WarForge, StormForge, Abyss people. EQ was bought in to try and spread some light on the matter and indicate that indeed other groups had been playing at this game for a very long time, and their problems could not be solved. No matter how much they wanted them to be solved.

Your argument is based off of the ego of groups that made some s*** a while ago.

Ego doesnt make stuff magically happen, goals, persistence, knowledge and talent makes stuff happen.

Right, so they get the benefit of the known name,


Which means little.

and the clued up new talent.

Actually most of them are not that clued up, or should I say they dont appear to be ninjas.

As this conversation drags on I notice that you guys appear to actually give a s*** about EQ and those that try and emulate it.


I dont know how you came to that conclusion.

I can assue you I couldn't care less about who is running the WOW side of things or propping up WOW


It is obvious because you would then know what you are talking about.

if it turns out to be unworthwhile, maybe you guys should be less emotional about your favorite group of people,


Hang on this sentence was just talking about you now us.

it appears to be clouding your judgement.


Let me get this straight. Just up there you say that you dont care less about how is running the WoW side of things and our judgement is clouded?

The irony.

Still the official name that describes well who the alpha is open to.


No the official name is it is in Alpha. The friends and family was added to give context on who can use it.

There is a very limited number of people in the Friends and Family alpha,


There are about 700 people currently on the Alpha. Which is a increase from the 400 before and the 150 people who where really the friends and family who where in the early alpha.
why do you think it is named so


Because people wanted to know if they could test the Alpha.

because Blizzard like names that "sound gay"?

Because their forums are filled with f**ots who are ignorant.

Being known is beneficial because its more likely that you will be trusted to live up to your end of the bargain.


Actually the reason you use in house for alpha testing is because you can spend a long time talking to them over dinner, or lunch. Security is a issue, but when it comes to user testing detail you cant beat people who can phone you up on your mobile phone and ask for advice.

Well rather than go by your opinion, I think I will stick with the interpretation of Vivendi's paralegal team. You will note that in their flagrantly excessive claims of BnedD's wrong doing with regard to the WC3 beta, they never said they had no right to make a server from beta copies.


OMG I was talking about the WoW alpha.
typo
Posted 10:43pm 04/2/04
I am just wondering what state the server code is. EQEMU seems to be a hacked up client more than anything that is made to run like a server.


I think SOE legal put their d*** in EQEMU and took a photo.
clipto
Posted 04:10pm 05/2/04
I will eat my own s*** if someone other than blizzard runs a WoW server.


One way ticket to Irvine California : $1000

Double barrel shotgun and 2 rounds: $302

Cabride to Blizzard studios : $10

Opportunity to see lunch eating his own s*** after demanding Blizzard release the source at point blank range...... PRICELESS
clipto
Posted 04:15pm 05/2/04
The obvious conclusion to your argument is that the game must apparently be ready to play before everybody can play WoW, either though open Beta or because it is released.


That paragraph (especially considering the quotes) barely makes any sense.

The point is; that your points are not clear. First you say that the reason that one of the major reasons that they will reverse engineer the server is because that people cant play it at the moment. Then you essentially say that isnt your argument at all. I mean no wonder we are confused.


Nope. First I said "Warforge will be doing incredibly well to be making a comparable server."

Then I said it was possible (not a certainty, not even likely, but possible), and I said that your comparison to EQ is invalid and gave supporting reasons why, I certainly never said they "would reverse engineer the server".

Finally, I said that my argument regarding EQ and WOW emu teams is solely that it is a poor (at best) comparison.

The point of UO being bought into this argument is that it is the only MMOG to have the server side cracked. The only reason this is the case is because it was almost totally client side. Sure it could apply, assuming that WoW was totally client side, the problem is that the WoW isnt client side it is server side (apart from the graphics engine and triggers).


No one is denying that UO was a lot easier to hack. The point was that you were making sweeping statement and you turned out wrong. Furthermore, saying "The only reason this is the case" is rediculous, for all you know it would of been done either way.

The open beta is going to be available to all comers. Blizzard has announced this many times.


Wrong. Completely wrong.

Also because you jump on people for getting this opinion of your argument; When justify the hacking of WoWs server with a example like many will never be able to play legit WoW beta, what you are insinuating, if you like it or not, is that people will be able to play the emulated server before the end of beta.


I said that in response to this statement, which I felt was inaccurate.

We cant play beta for about 6 more months at the longest (open beta maybe before then).


Saying "legit" is neccesary because this is a conversation about official and unofficial efforts. The truth is you have used something as simple as that to make out that I am saying things I am not.

I mean really, if the server emulator was released after the beta period had ended, then this whole line of argument (restrictive beta) is mute and a deflection from the real argument.


Well what is the "real argument" here? That, as I previously stated, it's "possible"? The only reason I brought up the restrictive beta was to point out that comparing the WOW teams now to the EQ teams then was a poor comparison.

So at the worst add 3-4 months to my call. Woo


Still guessing (educated or not), while I agree its likely to be released this year, and they could definitely do it if they wanted, I simply don't know. What's more important is that either way it hardly detracts from any of my points.

At least I have seen MMOG engines, and I am not sprouting that pirate Russian ninja engineer hacker dragons powering up to be super sayans will over come the amazing technical difficulties because they are really keen.


What lies, what misrepresentations, except for who is and who isn't dragons and ninjas, I mean I can't find where I said it, but who is to say?

You have offered no proof, only opinion.


I have stated, that it is logical, that the WOW teams have more motivation, and more resources, because more people want to play the WOW beta now than wanted to play the EQ beta all those years ago. Also because the WOW teams are more well known now than those teams were when the EQ beta came out. You have been completely unsuccessful arguing these points. For some crazy reason you feel quoting retail heyday numbers is relevant to this argument which is based on the WOW beta and the EQ beta.

Ok, lets go all the way back to the start.

The Alpha client contains a graphics engine and some network triggers.

It contains 0% of the game mechanics, the other 100% is on the server.


Who said client? I said "the "family and friends" alpha", not the client. I am saying people can and are playing the "family and friends" alpha right now in reply to your question

How can you play a game that isnt finished?"


The point is that at the time it was a fantastic amount of players for the time. You seem to just offhandedly remove anything that doesnt flow along with cliptos point of view without considering it.


I know thats your point, I "offhandedly remove" it because you have failed to illustrate its relevancy. It was a fantastic amount? Well thats great but now theres an even greater amount. WOW is even more popular. I never said no one ever cared about EQ, what I said was it was a poor comparison.

The validity of this point isnt just directed towards this single quoted text, but to a large section of your argument on why EQ Emulators apparently failed. You disregard all prior efforts because of motivation,


My argument has little (nothing?) to do with why EQ emulators failed, it has everything to do with why EQ beta emulator teams make a poor comparison to current WOW teams, motivation is one point of several.

The point of EQ beta, and early retail is that there was a f***load of people who wanted to play EQ, the fan base was huge, and they had heaps of motivation to make it. It just wasnt feasible to do so.


Early retail isn't as relevant, as they can just pay for it. I am not saying the beta wasn't wildly popular for its time, or that they didn't have heaps of motivation, all I am saying is the numbers are not comparable by todays standards, yet the beta is just as, or more restrictive, WOW is from a well known company building on EQ's achievements, which augments it even more. So finally, it makes for a poor comparison.

Some of the cracking teams came from UO. So yes some of them have a lot of c*** to show off.


No one is asking about the people in the groups, you said yourself they were irrelevant. The groups were established, successfull in their endevours, and well known or not?

They got that idea because people on the warforge forum wanted to do exactly that.


This is not a history lesson. Are you retracting this comment

As for being caught they publicly advertise IRC chat meetings with the developers of the hacked servers. It wont take too long for that kind of stupidity to get caught. Heck what kind of sysadmin wouldnt own there arse in a second for a beta account.


now or will you just be waiting till next time to make a relevant point?

I am not the one who believes in magical ninja fairies.


Strange, you keep on mentioning them, typical that you bring up "magical ninja fairies" with respect to "real points" though.

My argument is based on the technical mechanics of doing this.


Well that would explain why you have completely failed to address other just as if not more crucial points I have raised.

EQ was bought in to try and spread some light on the matter and indicate that indeed other groups had been playing at this game for a very long time, and their problems could not be solved. No matter how much they wanted them to be solved.


And it shouldn't of been, because it is a poor comparison.

If you read though the posts again, you would see that the points about EQ beta and EQ post beta only appeared because you have this belief that nobody else in the world could be as have the same motivation as the WarForge, StormForge, Abyss people.


"no one else in the world"? No just not a team from several years ago working on a game that had no where near the same amount of exposure as a game from now. Especially after said game (EQ) dramatically changed the market over the years.

I dont know how you came to that conclusion.


Because when I am talking about numbers, you are talking about how the game was really good for its time, then saying how popular it became when it went retail.

Hang on this sentence was just talking about you now us.


Whoa, that must really throw you.

Let me get this straight. Just up there you say that you dont care less about how is running the WoW side of things and our judgement is clouded?


Yea, because I am fine with whatever happens, but you guys are probably going to slit your wrists over it.

No the official name is it is in Alpha. The friends and family was added to give context on who can use it.


Its called, by Blizzard, the "friends and family alpha", in the artwork, server messages and everything.

Actually the reason you use in house for alpha testing...


That is not relevant to my point (or any other) on why it is beneficial for the groups to be established and known under these circumstances.

OMG I was talking about the WoW alpha.


Obviously, and I was talking about the precedent that Vivendi's lawyers set with the WC3 beta, and how it totally derails your point.
typo
Posted 07:35pm 05/2/04
One way ticket to Irvine California : $1000

Double barrel shotgun and 2 rounds: $302

Cabride to Blizzard studios : $10

Opportunity to see lunch eating his own s*** after demanding Blizzard release the source at point blank range...... PRICELESS


So is this the russian ninja underground super sayan dragon fairies with the shot gun or is this someone else?
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