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Bitcoin Prices now over $100 each
Rdizz
Germany
2378 posts
Im pretty happy right now TBH because I bought some back when they were about 12 each and just left them in the US Mtgox exchange. This thing in Cyprus has just made it explode and rumors are floating around that they will reach up to 1000 each.

The best thing is that people are now accepting this as a form of payment for a lot of things which is awesome in boosting its value. Recently a Porsche was sold for bitcoins worth $39,000USD.


PC world news link

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/bitcoin-value-triples-in-a-month-to-all-time-high-of-more-than-100/
At the end of February, bitcoins hit an all-time trading high of just over $33. That suddenly looks like chump change, with the value of bitcoins today moving past $100. You can see nearly real-time changes in the value of bitcoins at Coinlab and track the currency's steady rise over the past month at Blockchain. We've seen the value go up and down today, fluctuating between $99 and $105. The new high is remarkable given that bitcoins were only worth about $13.50 at the beginning of this year. The total value of the nearly 11 million bitcoins in circulation (its "market cap") has also soared past $1 billion, after being at less than $50 million one year ago


So yeah pretty awesome news if you are into bitcoins. Naturally there is always risk with stuff like this and economists are screaming its just a bubble but if things continue the way they are who knows..
06:42pm 04/04/13 Permalink
system
Internet
--
06:42pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Strik3r
Brisbane, Queensland
2143 posts
I sold my last 25 of them 2 months ago @ ~$30 each thinking the market would crash again. BURNING I DIDN'T WAIT.
06:47pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Vash
3711 posts
I remember when this first came out and everyone saying it would flop. Haha.
06:49pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7527 posts
In Neal Stephenson's early novels, it was about now that this was supposed to happen, leading to the collapse of governments because they couldn't tax digital money. Nealstradamus shall be his new name, now we just wait for the arrival of the Geometers.
06:53pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6297 posts
same. i bought a bunch at $5 in 2011. and then from dec 2012 kept buying weekly
07:46pm 04/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10083 posts
I was reading something a few weeks ago about the US Gov and Bitcoins and here it is !


The Treasury says money-laundering rules apply to 'virtual currencies.'

The U.S. is applying money-laundering rules to "virtual currencies," amid growing concern that new forms of cash bought on the Internet are being used to fund illicit activities.

The move means that firms that issue or exchange the increasingly popular online cash will now be regulated in a similar manner as traditional money-order providers such as Western Union Co. They would have new bookkeeping requirements and mandatory reporting for transactions of more than $10,000.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324373204578374611351125202.html?mod=djemalertNEWS

07:47pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6298 posts
ive got about 5 mining rigs online now too, and inline for the butterfly labs miners.
07:48pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35447 posts
ive bought hundreds of dollars of bitcoins, but sold them all for items on the net;

i would probably be a millionaire* if i hadnt been buying stuff with them.






*not quite true, but i would have a s*** load of money.
07:52pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Crakaveli
USA
6283 posts
Always seemed way to difficult to get bit Coins in Australia. Where are you all buying from?
08:02pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35449 posts
not f*****g https://www.cryptoxchange.com/ any more who ripped me off a hungee.

https://www.spendbitcoins.com/buy/ were pretty good.
08:18pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6301 posts
ive used spend bitcoins... its fun walking into comm bank and giving a random bank account cash...
08:44pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35452 posts
could use mt gox, but they made it pretty difficult
08:49pm 04/04/13 Permalink
skythra
Brisbane, Queensland
6473 posts
I had about 3 of them in my wallet, but i lost them. I formatted my computer a few times because i just had no value in them. I ran my test for about a month in winter, mostly as a noisy heater just to see how much i could earn and back then turns out not many so i gave up :P

kind of sad i didn't backup that wallet thingy. I'd have 300 dollars now if i could trade it for something tangible :P

Was kind of fun to enjoy the economic side :)
08:55pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Skitza
Brisbane, Queensland
9866 posts
So what's the best client/wallet/site to use for this? My CPU is wasted.
09:21pm 04/04/13 Permalink
HerbalLizard
Brisbane, Queensland
5756 posts
gpu rather than cpu
09:27pm 04/04/13 Permalink
carson
Gippsland, Victoria
1810 posts
How exactly does mining work? I just can't understand it. Someone explain it to me in simple terms.
09:34pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Skitza
Brisbane, Queensland
9867 posts
I know gpu is better but I have very little compared to raw CPU available... ;)

School me.
09:42pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22524 posts
For all you guys with mining rigs, how much profit are you left with when you minus the electricity costs and the costs to buy the hardware?
09:47pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
21660 posts
how the s*** do you spend internet money in real life? all sounds rather sketchy to me
09:51pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22526 posts
I reckon it would be useful for buying drugs online.

The whole giving your home address for delivery thing seems to ruin the anonymity a tad, though.
09:52pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6302 posts
Ok, ill answer a few questions...

could use mt gox, but they made it pretty difficult

Not really. I use them. Sign up which takes about 2 mins. Then scan them a copy of your drivers licence. Takes about 2 days to approve.

Transfering money to them is easy, its just an Oz bank account @ $3.4 cut. Clears in about 2 days.

09:58pm 04/04/13 Permalink
dranged
Melbourne, Victoria
2074 posts
The price has gone through the roof because one of the FPGA asic vendors said you can buy a bitcoin mining kit with bitcoins.
So there's a great circular bubble if I ever saw one :).

Surely cat imgrs would be a better choice for a currency, surely!
10:03pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6303 posts
For all you guys with mining rigs, how much profit are you left with when you minus the electricity costs and the costs to buy the hardware?


Mining is also based on difficulty. More miners, more difficult it becomes. Start of march to now we have seen a 2/3 increase in difficulty.

I had some board and chips about (and tried to get some cheap on here). A 7970 card from umart will cost you $300 and get you 600-400mhs. A psu to run it will cost you $60ish.

I was minting a coin in about 10days back when they where worth $10. So RIO was quite a few months. Now taking in difficulty, you can mint in around 16 days. So 42 days for RIO on a card.

It draws about 260watts, and I have a 10kW solar system. Seeing how QLD feed in tariff is only 8c /kwh, i dont really see the power as a "cost"
10:04pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6304 posts
how the s*** do you spend internet money in real life? all sounds rather sketchy to me

There are services already that will pay your bills in bitcoins. Send them your bPay ref and bitcoins and they will pay it.

Other services exist, like converting it to pre paid visa cards.

However, once it reaches greater adoption, other services will pop up. Eg, your restruant bill will have a nice QR code on it where you will pay by bitcoins via mobile.

Cash will still exist for fast retail transctions... if high street retail survives.
10:07pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6305 posts
The price has gone through the roof because one of the FPGA asic vendors said you can buy a bitcoin mining kit with bitcoins.

Butterfly labs have been accepting payments via BTC since August. The price didnt move much until after Jan.

Its not really a circular bubble, because even if you mined every coin, you have a hard limit of 25 coins a day.
10:10pm 04/04/13 Permalink
dranged
Melbourne, Victoria
2075 posts
One of these runs 30W! At current run rates, that around 2.25 bitcoins a day.
10:11pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6306 posts
^^ yep. and i have a place in the queue. ordered mine in sept
10:12pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3178 posts
The cynic in me keeps asking who has their c*** up everyones ass here?
10:17pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5863 posts
Surely cat imgrs would be a better choice for a currency, surely!


It's coming.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/alternate_currency.png

I too am bewildered as to how the value bitcoins is determined. The value tripled in a month? Huh?
If I can buy off the shelf hardware to do some calculations that magic up some bitcoins that are worth real money what's stopping every other punter from doing the same?
10:27pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6307 posts
The cynic in me keeps asking who has their c*** up everyones ass here?

English please
10:30pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22527 posts
A 7970 card from umart will cost you $300 and get you 600-400mhs
Well this is bulls*** because the cheapest 7970 I found was the powercolor for $390.

So it would take you around 72 days of mining to make the money back for the video card and PSU. Does each rig require it's own motherboard, CPU, a case and a PSU? Shouldn't you also factor in the cost of those as well?

So 260 watts running 24/7. Can someone who is good at maths work out how much that costs because I'd be interested to know.
10:32pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6308 posts
I too am bewildered as to how the value bitcoins is determined. The value tripled in a month? Huh?


This is basic economics. When demand goes up, but the supply curve cant be shifted, the price goes up.

The "worth" is exactly like anything else you buy. If you went to a cafe and a coffee was $100, you wouldnt pay it. Thats because it is only worth $x to you.

The price is determined by a market or exchange. The lowest price *anyone* on Mt Gox will part with their coins atm is $140. Thus the price.

If i decide to sell my coins at $100, then this becomes the new market rate, albeit for a small value.

If I can buy off the shelf hardware to do some calculations that magic up some bitcoins that are worth real money what's stopping every other punter from doing the same?

2 things. Why havent you done it yet is one answer.

The second is there is a hard limit on coins being manufactured per day. This limit, as i said before, is 25BTC. As more hash/second on the network appears, then the difficulty goes up. The higher it goes up, the harder it is to make a coin. The early GPU and CPU miners will now stop mining, because the RIO is now too long.

They drop off... the difficulty decreases.

Beautiful protocol.
10:37pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6309 posts
sorry fpot, my bad, its 7950s im running http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=248&bid=2&sid=102407

That said, in one of my miners is producing around 180mhs and getting about 1/2 the amount shares as my 7950. So its better to run 2x 7770s for $200
10:40pm 04/04/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2847 posts
260W @ 8c/kWh = $15/month
30W @ 8c/kWh = $1.75/month
10:40pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22528 posts
For each individual rig do you need the basics to boot up some form of an OS? For that you'd need a mobo, storage, ram CPU and a PSU wouldn't you?
10:41pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6310 posts
So it would take you around 72 days of mining to make the money back for the video card and PSU. Does each rig require it's own motherboard, CPU, a case and a PSU? Shouldn't you also factor in the cost of those as well?

So 260 watts running 24/7. Can someone who is good at maths work out how much that costs because I'd be interested to know.


Im good a maths... got mid semesters soon too, ha.

Yeah. Im not really concerned at the cost of cards right now. I plan on selling on ebay for around 70% of cost once butterfly labs ship.

Im buying xFire boards on ebay for around $20-45 and cheap celeron 775 chips for $5-10.

I think origin charge around 22c / kWh. So about 1/4 per hour to run or $1.20 per day. As said, I have a 10kw solar setup, and origin buy for 8c / kWh. So i am only out 2c / kwh per miner.
10:45pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6311 posts
For each individual rig do you need the basics to boot up some form of an OS?

Yep. I have an msdn subscription, so i have lots of free copies of win 7. I downloaded Fedora on the weekend, and am looking at that as the OS.

The miner i use is python written, so might work well in a linux setup too.
10:47pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6312 posts
Next is cooling. Novek 7000 doesnt sell in oz. Novek 7100 is sold, but at $1000 for 15l :(

Been watching youtube vids on mineral oil cooling, but then i wont be able to sell the hardware on ebay.
10:49pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22529 posts
Have you got a chart handy which shows how much bitcoins have risen and fallen in price during their existence?
10:50pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6313 posts
PSU wouldn't you?

yeah. psu is the killer. running dual 7950s need a $150 psu. running dual 7770s can get away with $65
10:52pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6314 posts
10:53pm 04/04/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18007 posts
F*** yeah i saw the price the other week at $94

I have 2 and and a bit btc sitting in a certain wallet that i bought for $30~
11:00pm 04/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22531 posts
So if bitcoins are worth $100 what happens if you want to buy something worth say $50?
11:01pm 04/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6316 posts
infinitely divisible. you could run the whole worlds currency off one btw
11:02pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
21661 posts
i still have no idea what the hell is going on in this thread.

power meter . jpeg

Want to see a shot of how much power my PC uses? for e-peen
11:57pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2380 posts
you can break your bitcoin down fpot to whatever amount you want. thus it would be 0.5btc
12:05am 05/04/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3179 posts
English please

I can't help but feel you're getting/going to get f***ed. Clear enough?
12:21am 05/04/13 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3011 posts
Proper f***ed?
12:34am 05/04/13 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
36848 posts
Wait for taggs to comment before you start investing IMO
12:36am 05/04/13 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
20771 posts
I don't understand how its an actual thing, I mean, why does it have any inherent value at all? Whats it backed by?
12:59am 05/04/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3181 posts
Proper f***ed?

Depends how deep.
01:12am 05/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22534 posts
Also say I have a $100 bill in one hand, and a USB stick with a bitcoin (worth $100) in the other. Now literally anyone in the world would be willing to either swap their $100 with mine (with exchange rates in mind) or give me $100 worth of goods or services for it. However compared to that there are only a very small amount of people who would be willing to give me $100 cash for my bitcoin or goods and services for it. Surely that must have some sort of an effect on its supposed worth of $100?
01:25am 05/04/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2381 posts
thats just like saying if you walked into a shop with $100 worth of gold would they take that?
01:42am 05/04/13 Permalink
JakeG
Thailand
1180 posts
All I know about it is, before the legislation was non existent and governments have recently released new laws about digital currency. With all the financial uncertainty is this here to stay? It's accused of being a tool for the black market but that happens with real money anyway.

Anyway, at $100 each I won't be buying any :(
01:56am 05/04/13 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3261 posts
Making money out of thin air never ends well.
07:36am 05/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6317 posts
I can't help but feel you're getting/going to get f***ed. Clear enough?

crystal. like i said, i bought at $5. ive sold some at $140.. so if 2800% on my money is f***ed.... now im free rolling

hows your cash in the bank at 5% doing?
07:43am 05/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35453 posts
btc's have been slowly increasing in value pretty much since i was buying them.

but yer this jump up has been crazy.
07:47am 05/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6318 posts
However compared to that there are only a very small amount of people who would be willing to give me $100 cash for my bitcoin or goods and services for it. Surely that must have some sort of an effect on its supposed worth of $100?


Yes and no. I think we are seeing the rise in BTC because its gaining press etc. So people are buying on speculation.

However, are few here on qgl are probably old enough to remember the early days of email? This was before unis in oz started handing them out.

There was only a few people i could email. So it was pretty useless. Its like "what was the person who bought the first fax machine thinking?"

However, we believed in it, and it grew. BTC is only ~4 years old. We are in that very early stage on the adoption S curve.
07:48am 05/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6319 posts
Want to see a shot of how much power my PC uses? for e-peen

lol... twat. if you read up, cost of power must be considered when mining to see if its profitable. I bought a meter so i knew exactly to do the math.
07:51am 05/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35454 posts
list of places you can spend bitcoins directly:

torrentleech (they accept bitcoins as payment for accounts)

https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/

there is s*** loads of places you can spend bitcoins directly:

also, you can just buy and sell them and get cash deposited into your bank account:
https://www.bitinnovate.com/sell-bitcoins/ (used to be able to do this through mobs like cryptoxchange or spendbitcoins, but they have either shut down or dont offer the service anymore.
08:30am 05/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35455 posts
btc's up to $130 this morning
08:53am 05/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1322 posts
A bunch of bitcoin exchanges seem to be offline or shut down... sup with that?
10:27am 05/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6320 posts
Down to $130...
a few big exchanges are being ddos'd atm
12:50pm 05/04/13 Permalink
kappa
Brisbane, Queensland
2039 posts
https://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap

0.2815959 BTC $ 37.25

Wowzer im rich! Bought 1 BTC for $16.
01:02pm 05/04/13 Permalink
typo
Other International
6525 posts
I don't understand how its an actual thing, I mean, why does it have any inherent value at all? Whats it backed by?


What's the inherent value of a AUD$100 note?
02:51pm 05/04/13 Permalink
taggs
6115 posts
Wait for taggs to comment before you start investing IMO


Nice to be thought of! Though let me make a (hopefully unnecessary) disclaimer that nothing I have ever said, or ever will say, on qgl constitutes financial advice and one would be incredibly stupid to make an investment decision based solely on a forum post.

However, I don't really have anything to add to what I have said in previous threads.

I think bitcoins are an interesting experiment in monetarism and that they fill a niche market for anonymous online transactions but there are a number of issues which will prevent them from becoming a mainstream, everyday currency.

For those looking to make an easy buck off the current price spike I'd be wary of the price falling, potentially dramatically, if either one or both of the following occur:

1) Cyprus (and the broader EU) get their s*** together; or
2) A method of shorting bitcoins is established.
03:02pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13483 posts
Taggs, surely with this latest Bitcoin craze (tulip mania all over again) an astute hedge fund type powerhouse will be working out a way to short it. If so I'll be with them, unless JP Morgan advertise it, in which case take the opposite side lol.


Anyway,

Beware to you guys that buy of the 'greater fool theory'.

That is, most people are buying Bitcoins because they expect to sell bitcoins at a higher price to some fool who thinks they will go up more, who in turn expects to sell it to a fool who thinks it will go up more and so on.

Eventually there are a stack of fools at the top with worthless tulips.

History suggests that when a stock/commodity/whatever hits manic stages where everyone talks about it and everyone thinks it's such a great buy, that is usually the top. The question is, are we there yet?

Have a look at how quickly Gold dropped from $1900 highs (And silver) that is about the speed that bitcoins will drop in value too when it corrects.

For bitcoins to continue to increase in value there needs to be a continued increase in demand. This means there needs to be a reason for demand to continue, what reasons are there? Reasons enough to expect something that has risen over 200% already to rise another 50%?
07:48pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Opec
Brisbane, Queensland
7771 posts
I heard this great quote one time saying something like "I know it's time to get out of the stock market when my taxi driver , shoe shine boys, my cook are giving me stock tips". This situation with Bitcoins pretty much fit this description.
08:05pm 05/04/13 Permalink
IVY_MiKe
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory
1455 posts
For bitcoins to continue to increase in value there needs to be a continued increase in demand.


There is with BitCoins. What's also relevant in this space is that people mining bitcoins won't be able to continue to do so as quickly in the future (by design).

ergo, you've got an increase in demand (as more people learn about it, and it's benefits) and decrease in supply (because coins are slower and slower to mine).

All in all I'm happy to spectate as it's a fascinating exercise in software design as much as economics.
08:25pm 05/04/13 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
36851 posts
2) A method of shorting bitcoins is established.
I have been interested to read some comments about the security of the system ; at the moment the ONLY thing that makes these coins worth anything is the crypto behind them. I've read some interesting comments (that I can't find now) from what appear to be savvy crypto people pointing out potential flaws in the system that might compromise it later down the track.

These are just random comments on the tubes, but hardcore crypto will be looking at ways to exploit this. Whether or not it stands up to these attacks, it will be a fascinating exercise in the area of true digital currency.

The other concern I've seen is the block transaction log is getting to be massive to the point that it is unwieldy in several cases. Not sure if this is a practical problem or not but have seen some suggestions that it might struggle with scale once it gets to the pointy end of availability of new coins to be mined.

If you are keen on BitCoins as an investment mechanism I'd encourage you to keep an eye out in the academic/tech/crypto world for papers/revelations about the integrity of the system. Because if any flaws or exploit vectors are found, you can be guaranteed the value will drop - a lot.
10:06am 09/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
11004 posts
I don't think bitcoins will take off, especially because I just thought of an idea better than bitcoins.
10:10am 09/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19733 posts
It's a fad. There is no easy money.
11:56am 09/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5877 posts
^ Don't listen to that! Buy Bitcoins! BUY BUY BUY!
12:02pm 09/04/13 Permalink
ShOdDy
Brisbane, Queensland
150 posts
What pools to ppl use? atm im using slush because it was easy. Any recommendations?
01:06pm 09/04/13 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
11840 posts

how the s*** do you spend internet money in real life? all sounds rather sketchy to me
About as sketchy as currently accepted forms of currency. Its all just imaginary really, we just like to pretend it isn't :p
01:19pm 09/04/13 Permalink
HERMITech
Brisbane, Queensland
8196 posts
I got 2x 7970 3GB s in Xfire which are supposedly rated at just over 1k mhs.
Seeing as I bought it for gaming pleasure, may as well -

Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off to Mordor I do go....
04:49pm 09/04/13 Permalink
Caveboy
Brisbane, Queensland
355 posts
Sweet Jesus bitcoins currently at $236! Don't own any nor will I be but some people must have made some mega bucks in the last six weeks!
06:43am 10/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
11010 posts
Have they, or is it like basketball cards where the Beckett guide says your MVP Jordan is worth 200 bucks but no one will actually give you that...
08:16am 10/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35465 posts
lots of places will give you cash directly for your bitcoins (minus their fee)

i posted a lit of places before that you can trade bitcoins directly for.
10:34am 10/04/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18022 posts
i still have 0.97 left after spending up last weekend, when they got to $136

raging that i cashed out early

but i will hang on to the 1 i have left and see where it goes
12:22pm 10/04/13 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
36862 posts
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=219284 is an interesting post about the risks of BitCoin. It is not clear to me that the author (one Karl Denninger) is an expert in currency but a quick glance indicates some interesting points.

Most notably:

"Those who are using Bitcoin as a means to try to foil currency controls or state prohibitions on certain transactions are asking for a criminal indictment not only for the original evasion act itself but also the possibility of a money-laundering indictment on top of it, and the proof necessary to hang you in a court of law is inherently present in the design of the currency system!"

It is an important point. The transaction log is (as I understand it?) a permanent, indelible, and cryptographically secure list of all the transactions that have happened. Using it leaves big sticky greasy digital fingerprints everywhere. Maybe there are known ways to anonomize transfers that I'm not aware of (I imagine if you transfer off all your coins and can wipe all traces of your wallet from your devices you might be OK, as long as there are no IP records that can be traced back to you?)

This was also interesting:

"Third, because Bitcoin is not state-linked and thus fluctuates in value there is an FX tax issue. Let's say you "buy" Bitcoins (whether for cash or in exchange for a good or service you provide) at a time when they have a "value" of $5 each against the US dollar. You spend them when they have a "value" of $20 each. You have a capital gain of $15. At the time of the sale you have a tax liability too, and I'm willing to bet you didn't keep track of it or report it. That liability never goes away as it was wilfully evaded and yet the ability to track the transaction never goes away either!"

I don't know how that compares to normal FX issues. e.g. I just got back from the US and have maybe $100USD in cash, worth roughly $100AUD at the moment. Say I wait a month and then the USD bounces back (haha) and my $100USD cash becomes worth $120AUD and I exchange it over - I guess that is a capital gain that I'd be expected to pay tax on (though in practice would be completely unenforceable).
03:11pm 10/04/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18026 posts
Yes i'm sure that is all a possibility, i'll wait until it all actually happens and the gubberments get their hands on this transaction list and break it first before i stop using them. None of my transactions are linkable by ip anyway so all the power to them

This transaction list would only be a list of exchanges between people not a detailed list of what and why the transaction went down so that is going to be pretty tough to link back to an anonymous peice of mail sent by an anonymous person in another state within the country or between countries even
03:36pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35469 posts
half the appeal of bitcoins is their supposedly anonymity
03:57pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Jim
UK
13258 posts
I have no idea why you would think that
04:25pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35471 posts
probably because of all the articles i read on bitcoin anonmyity i guess
04:34pm 10/04/13 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
36863 posts
Me either; the official BitCoin stance is that their current implementation is "usually not very anonymous".

I know very little about how it works but my understanding is you have an ID which is basically just a bit crypto-generated random number, but that number is assigned to all your BitCoin transactions. As soon as that ID is mapped to your real world identity (like an IP address is with your ISP) then all your transactions can be identified.

It looks like you can obfuscate all that through third parties etc but unless you're doing all that I would be very wary of claims that it is truly anonymous - given the fundamental thing about how it works is a big publicly accessible and publicly verifiable list of transactions.
04:36pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Jim
UK
13259 posts
this is why you shouldn't read news dot com dot au spook
you should read a real news site like the world of warcraft forums, or the uk guitar forums
04:47pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35473 posts
i would rather die than read either of those publications, if indeed they are real publications.

05:04pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Jim
UK
13260 posts
:)
05:19pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Jerry
Queensland
4285 posts
i dont really understand wtf bitcoins are, but i bought some via paypal once to pay for memberships paypal will no longer support after the megaupload saga

probably have some left but wouldnt have any idea how to retrieve them now
05:54pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35478 posts
they will be in your wallet bro
05:57pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Jerry
Queensland
4288 posts
thx bro, thats exactly where i left them
07:48pm 10/04/13 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7701 posts
i did some dough on them a while back but at the same time i snapped up a bunch of btc related domains.. maybe they are worth something now :)
12:51am 11/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6322 posts
woop, der it is. crashed to $99. back up to 180
08:04am 11/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
11015 posts
There can only ever be 21 million bitcoins. Doesn't this seem like not very many?
That isn't even enough bitcoins for everyone in Australia to have one.
08:30am 11/04/13 Permalink
DoCZero
Melbourne, Victoria
186 posts
I guess that is a capital gain that I'd be expected to pay tax on (though in practice would be completely unenforceable).


I trade currency as a form of investment - doing approx 300 transactions in EUR/USD per year, and there will definately be a tax implication. As most people will have done this from a personal account (i.e not an abn) it will probably come in at income tax rates.

It will be interesting to see if the ATO jumps on this - as I imagine some of the bitcoin miners & speculators have 1000's. Anything that moves so fast in value is going to explode - if I had any, i'd be cashing out asap and being done with it.
08:34am 11/04/13 Permalink
Nathan
Brisbane, Queensland
4173 posts
That isn't even enough bitcoins for everyone in Australia to have one.
I thought this too at first, but you can apparently subdivide a bitcoin down to something like 0.00000001 i think.

So its kind of irrelevant, other than in a fantasy world where bitcoin was the only unit of currency, a single bitcoin would be worth millions (or billions?).

Does seem like an odd design though.
01:40pm 11/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13506 posts
mooby there is a scam going on at the moment.

When the price is high, the main bitcoin servers thingy Mt Coin(or whatever its called) gets ddosed when the price starts to fall. This causes massive panic selling and the price crashes. Only to be bought up in big numbers, then sold at the high's, rince and repeated. Nice scam, working like a charm it seems. You can try piggy back onto it by buying when it crashes..
02:15pm 11/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
11016 posts
So a few times in the last few days we've seen it fluctuate by very large amounts, is anybody here trying to buy some when it gets low?

Or is everyone saying the servers get 'ddosed' by people trying to trade as the value is going down?
02:21pm 11/04/13 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
580 posts
Well I sold 6.9BTC last night just over 1.5k AUD awwww yeah! Glad I mined these like nearly two years ago and decided to sit on it.
03:03pm 11/04/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2387 posts
its not getting ddosed in a negitave way, they made a press release about whats happening. They just were not ready for such a huge amount of people to start using it and the servers cant handle it. They say they will be off line for 12-24h soon to upgrade and install new servers to deal with all the new traffic.

if you can read it
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130411.html
07:27pm 11/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35494 posts
interesting article on how the Winklevii twins are getting super rich off bitcoins

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/technology-news/winklevoss-twins-revealed-as-bitcoin-moguls-20130412-2hp6n.html
05:33pm 12/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1738 posts
price down to $90 atm
06:06pm 12/04/13 Permalink
natslovR
Sydney, New South Wales
8162 posts
There's a massive amount of them being traded at the moment. Just looking at the MtGox chart for the month, most days there's under 5,000 bitcoins changing hand every eight hours (well less than 15K a day), but volume was 40K today and 30K yesterday.
07:38pm 12/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13515 posts
There is a school of thought that when large volumes are traded the 'big boys' are doing their magic. Usually it is offloading large amounts of stock/bitcoins/whatever into the seemingly unending maws of demand. This can happen after a long period of accumulation where stock is slowly bought up so as to not mark up the price too much with their own buying.

Good luck bitcoin holders. I would think now is a good time to sell (well $150 was and certainly $200).
09:06am 13/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35499 posts
Winklevi's reckon btcs have a lot longer legs in them;
09:18am 13/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13516 posts
Of course he does, it is in his best interests to get as many people believing that as he can.

When J.P. Morgan is telling everyone how much of an awesome buy Puddle Ducks are you can bet your bottom dollar they selling or about to sell Puddle Ducks.
09:37am 13/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6323 posts
Good luck bitcoin holders. I would think now is a good time to sell (well $150 was and certainly $200).

as per my post, i offloaded at $181. Good 36x on my money. Had an order in on mt gox at $70 which got matched last night. Now sold it at $117. Fun times!
10:03am 13/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13517 posts
Well played Mooby, well played indeed.
10:20am 13/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35539 posts
all btc trading suspended
http://www.news.com.au/technology/biztech/bitcoin-exchange-bitfloor-shuts-down-trading/story-fn5lic6c-1226623544108http://

"As such, I have made the decision to halt operations and return all funds.

"Over the next days we will be working with all clients to ensure that everyone receives their funds. Please be patient as we process your request."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/technology/biztech/bitcoin-exchange-bitfloor-shuts-down-trading/story-fn5lic6c-1226623544108#ixzz2Qn4wmxZ5

last time i saw a message like that, i dint get all my money refunded :(
THANKS FOR NOTHING CRYPTOXCHANGE!!!!!!!
03:39pm 18/04/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2395 posts
it's only one trader shutting down....not the whole currency.
04:54pm 18/04/13 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
9995 posts
how the s*** do you spend internet money in real life? all sounds rather sketchy to me

Real world crime gangs loved second life ... A laundry at every wifi!
07:49pm 18/04/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6326 posts
Well played Mooby, well played indeed.

cheers. put another order in at $50. that got matched when it hit $45 over the weekend. now ive put in a sell order at $100. currently ~$90
09:55pm 18/04/13 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
1320 posts
So, to get into this all I need is a pc with a video card and the mining software and to register with one of the bitcoin wallet places?
04:49pm 31/07/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36137 posts
sure, thats it!
04:59pm 31/07/13 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
1321 posts
Now to complicate matters, what about litecoin?

Found this article. http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/missed-out-on-the-bitcoin-gold-rush-get-in-on-the-litecoin-silver-rush-instead/

Some dides Litecoin mining rig lol http://i.imgur.com/Tuorswf.jpg
05:03pm 31/07/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6390 posts
I bought 100 litecoins at $2.66. See what happens. Im free rolling anyway
07:26pm 31/07/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
8 posts
Once the bitcoin exists, I can see how it has its ultimate value etc, - However, what exactly is your computer doing to earn the money?

With something such as Folding@Home - You are processing towards a goal of finding new medical cures, vaccines etc.

What is the bitcoin miner actually doing that generates value? One would think that processing for medical cures would have a legitimate value and is really the thing that should reward mining with money at the end point.

I was going to mine with this new rig but with the advent of ASIC systems, it's probably not worth the cost in electricity. I don't even have a tariff meter here. :
06:14pm 15/08/13 Permalink
DecayingCorpse
Brisbane, Queensland
2184 posts
ph33x, don't revive old threads.

the hand of trog will smite you.
06:22pm 15/08/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
9 posts
It's only 2 weeks old and is the latest thread in the Software section? It's a serious question + wouldn't it seem daft if I made a thread above this one asking the question?
06:38pm 15/08/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36255 posts
a bitcoin is mined (calculated) by a protocol. your pc needs to do lots of calculations to work that out.

that is why people have been using video cards, coz they can really crunch the numbers (lots of little calculations all at the same time)
06:50pm 15/08/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36256 posts
and yer, unless you have dedicated hardware, dont bother mining, you'll come out behind.
06:53pm 15/08/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
10 posts
Understood, but I meant what are you actually mining?

Eg: Are you folding another protein? Cracking something unknowingly illegal? At our end, the 'value' is the mined bitcoin, but what about at the so called "server" end of things where the coins are generated? What overall goal kinda thing..

You could almost just release them all now and just let the market value decide.. The part where we consume electricity to mine them instead of buying them would assert we're all processing something that must we worth something to someone at the bigger end of the whole idea..
06:56pm 15/08/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20336 posts
is the "crunching of numbers" actually delivering a service to anyone - like astronomers or some such?
06:56pm 15/08/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36257 posts
dont think mining, think calculating.

its exactly the same as folding.
06:57pm 15/08/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36872 posts
btc sitting at about $970 each today.

im slowly getting rich with my change.
12:59pm 24/11/13 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2510 posts
My 50 btc miner says that I have 317 bitcoin but I can't payout
01:42pm 24/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36873 posts
how come? yuo rich bro
02:36pm 24/11/13 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2511 posts
http://members.iinet.net.au/~dodgymon/btc.jpg
It's a bug.
I would be 1 rich mofo if it was mine and I could withdraw it.
08:14pm 24/11/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2507 posts
now would be a bad time to sell anyway. The best thing to do is hold onto them for at least another 5 years, then you can say you are rich.
10:06pm 24/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36904 posts
$1350 today

s**** gonna burst pretty soon
07:37am 29/11/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8241 posts
Bitcoin won't be nearly close to peaking until a coin reaches 7 figures. If the currency is going to have serious traction on a world scale and economy, then the total pool would need to be in the trillions of dollars, not billions as it currently could max out at.

Yes, there's likely a burst coming, but it's going to swell again.
09:03am 29/11/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1153 posts
It will go to 1 million per bitcoin in a few years, you heard it hear first.

edit: dammit beaten!
09:04am 29/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36905 posts
second bro, second
09:17am 29/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14699 posts
Apparently China is buying up bitcoins in a big way :/
09:18am 29/11/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8242 posts
Yup. Saw photos yesterday of a bitcoin mining facility that's as big as the BlueGene/Q (Avoca) we have downstairs. They obviously think there's some money to be made to be worth having developed custom hardware just for coin mining.
10:11am 29/11/13 Permalink
Furgle
1073 posts
I just bought 3.0000 . Never traded stocks or owned anything like this, so I may regret it.
11:30am 29/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14701 posts
Everyone talking about them, everyone telling everyone else to buy them, people says how much spastically high upside there is to them..


Yup Tulip Mania all over again.

But no, this time it is surely different right?

Speculate away, at some point someone is going to pay top dollar for it, will it be you?
11:51am 29/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10844 posts
I was just reading about this last night.
Tulip Mania.

check out the comments on this story.
Some interesting views on Bitcoin and its future.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/25/is-bitcoin-about-to-change-the-world-peer-to-peer-cryptocurrency-virtual-wallet


12:25pm 29/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
760 posts
Lol, we still don't know what we're actually mining though (code-wise) correct?

This seems so pointless. The only reason it has any value is because everyone says it does. They should have added bitcoins to folding proteins and not just burning away electricity for nothing.
12:27pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14614 posts
Bitcoin won't be nearly close to peaking until a coin reaches 7 figures. If the currency is going to have serious traction on a world scale and economy, then the total pool would need to be in the trillions of dollars, not billions as it currently could max out at.

I'm buying some coin fragments (is that the term?) today I think. I figure a couple hundred bucks isn't the end of the world if BTC doesn't take off big time.

But they are getting harder to make and interest in them is growing. A few people making thousands of percent return for computer bytes is a big deal. If interest explodes, they're infinitely divisible so there is no limit to what your holding could be worth.

I'm CS enough to understand grasp the math and at this point for the sake of a few hunge and maybe being able to pay off my house in a few years its time to get on board I think.

EVERYONE ELSE PLEASE DO THE SAME THING

TOMORROW



Ta :D
Lol, we still don't know what we're actually mining though (code-wise) correct?

This seems so pointless. The only reason it has any value is because everyone says it does. They should have added bitcoins to folding proteins and not just burning away electricity for nothing.

Its not for nothing. The coins themselves are a decentralised global currency. This has utility for shady deals and basically anytime you buy something where you don't want people knowing what when and how you bought it. Digital cash. So they are a useful thing to exist.

Their worth is dependent on how many people are buying and selling them. The number of coins is mathematically limited - they get harder and harder to mine over time, but are infinitely divisible. This means that so long as people are buying into them, the apparent scarcity and hence value of each coin (or fraction thereof) grows. There are mainstream news stories now of people becoming millionaires sitting on them for a few years which may cause a spike in buyers thinking what I'm thinking this morning.

If that happens (TOMORROW PLEASE, TOMORROW) then you can make a lot of money quickly.

The other side is the pool of people who like to gamble on getting some 'free money' dries up and people are not enticed to buy in anymore. I have faith in human greed and think a small investment could have big return.

Oh, and looks like you have to pay tax when you cash in... http://www.businessinsider.com.au/do-you-have-to-pay-taxes-on-bitcoins-2013-4 maybe you can cash in at the caymans? :D
12:55pm 29/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
762 posts
Its not for nothing. The coins themselves are a decentralised global currency. This has utility for shady deals and basically anytime you buy something where you don't want people knowing what when and how you bought it. Digital cash. So they are a useful thing to exist.

Their worth is dependent on how many people are buying and selling them. The number of coins is mathematically limited - they get harder and harder to mine over time, but are infinitely divisible. This means that so long as people are buying into them, the apparent scarcity and hence value of each coin (or fraction thereof) grows. There are mainstream news stories now of people becoming millionaires sitting on them for a few years which may cause a spike in buyers thinking what I'm thinking this morning.

This explains why we buy and sell them. It explains why the price varies. It explains what you 'can' use them for (shady deals etc).

The one thing it doesn't explain (which is my question) is why we're mining them and not merely buying/selling them from the get go, just like money when we traded our 'goods' for it back in the day. We didn't 'mine' money, we fished, had farms, and were producing real world useful items for money. Nobody was going to hand it out for something which is useless to them. You couldn't just ride an exercise bike for 4 hours then ask someone for money (unless of course they are interested in getting stats while you ride the bike, which in turn is probably helping them make money through whatever field they are researching). <- Bitcoin mining has no application from what I know.

The computational power goes to no good use at the other end. I've tried to reiterate myself on this point several times in this thread alone and the point of my question seems to be lost before it's answered. :(

Put it this way, the answer to this question isn't/mustn't be simple. It's not plastered on every bitcoin thread - in fact, it's hardly mentioned at all.
01:36pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6363 posts
we still don't know what we're actually mining though (code-wise) correct?


My understanding is that the mining calculations are a brute force search to find some cryptographic hash value that allows a block of BTC transactions to be added to end of the transaction chain. For now, there's a small BTC reward for calculating the hash value but the only useful work mining is doing is to keep the system functioning.

The only reason it has any value is because everyone says it does.

Yep, same as any other currency really. There's no nutrition value in gold coins.
02:21pm 29/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
766 posts
This is one of them times I can only smile in wonderment.

lol..
02:41pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6364 posts
In other words, it's not computation for the sake of computation. Mining activity is the bitcoin system sustaining itself.
It's calculating the block chain which is a record of all transactions past and present in the system that by design is cryptographically difficult to forge.

No mining = No BTC transactions
No BTC transactions = BTC economy collapses, digital wallets become worthless
03:48pm 29/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
768 posts
For the sake of not confusing ourselves with the original model, lets make a new coin, called the bytecoin.

Why can't they just bring out 1 million bytecoins, people buy, people sell, the money value floats as people buy them up etc. I still don't see why you need to mine for people to transact, or for the system to work.
03:52pm 29/11/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1156 posts
For the sake of not confusing ourselves with the original model, lets make a new coin, called the bytecoin.

Why can't they just bring out 1 million bytecoins, people buy, people sell, the money value floats as people buy them up etc. I still don't see why you need to mine for people to transact, or for the system to work.


There needs to be a third party publicly recording the transaction, it's not a point to point thing. Apparently when there's no more bitcoins to mine, it will have to be operated liek visa/mastercard where they take a fee for running the transaction service.
04:25pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Mantis
Brisbane, Queensland
1187 posts
Because they needed to disperse the coins throughout the world and get interest. People collected them for the sake of collecting i would think, not because they knew they would make money. If you just gave them out all at once, people wouldn't care as much (and those that didn't get, would feel ripped off).
04:27pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14615 posts
For the sake of not confusing ourselves with the original model, lets make a new coin, called the bytecoin.

Why can't they just bring out 1 million bytecoins, people buy, people sell, the money value floats as people buy them up etc. I still don't see why you need to mine for people to transact, or for the system to work.

You don't, not really. Mining is just the way that the bitcoin algorithm happens to work!

The reason you need to mine coins is to assign scarcity to them. Without scarcity there can be no value. Mining provides a limit to the number of coins that can ever exist, and the combination of exponentially increasing cost of the coin production with the infinite divisibility of the existing coins means voilà! a digital currency is born.

Its ok to not understand it. Most people don't understand fiat currency or the gold standard but quite happily agree that a $10 note has value.
There needs to be a third party publicly recording the transaction, it's not a point to point thing. Apparently when there's no more bitcoins to mine, it will have to be operated liek visa/mastercard where they take a fee for running the transaction service.

As I understand it, there will never be no more coins to mine? The algorithm just dictates an exponential increasing cost curve out to approach a limit of 21M, but I very well might be wrong.

Additionally more blocks could be opened up by the bitcoin foundation via consensus I think.
04:39pm 29/11/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4580 posts
Because they needed to disperse the coins throughout the world and get interest. People collected them for the sake of collecting i would think, not because they knew they would make money. If you just gave them out all at once, people wouldn't care as much (and those that didn't get, would feel ripped off).



but that also gives value to it, how many s***** bits of art work are there that are collected because there are only a limited amount of them,

once the door is shut on making more bitcoins, the value will spike (much like when an artist dies) then a few years after that we will see what happens, could go a few ways

there might be another digital currency that comes along, with a different model, and controlled by a country (US Currency Rewards for E-trade Went Digital, or uscrewd?)

I mean how much value is there is a RBJ, it has for the most part the same meaning (cause I really doubt rev's jaw will hold out) the difference so far is that Bitcoins are tradable where as there are no controls on RBJ's
04:50pm 29/11/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4674 posts

What about this poor mofo,
A Newport man has been searching a landfill site in south Wales hoping to find a computer hard drive he threw away which is now worth over £4m.


news story
05:03pm 29/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
770 posts
As silly as it sounds - My concern is the use of electricity/energy to make this happen. Abundant amounts of energy too.

Back in the day of GPU mining, some people had well over 10 systems each with 4 graphics cards running full time. That's a lot of juice/gas/coal/fuel burned.

If it had a secondary cause (folding proteins for medicine, etc) it would seem like much more of a worthy cause, as well as keeping it's original idea of the Bitcoin.
05:24pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14616 posts
As silly as it sounds - My concern is the use of electricity/energy to make this happen. Abundant amounts of energy too.

As compared to you know, all the electricity used in video gaming, or home theatre, or other 'non-productive' human behaviour ... hell I personally have an entire office filled with computers that only pursue worthless economic activity instead of joining the fight against teh cancers! WHat a jerk!

O_o
05:40pm 29/11/13 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
6151 posts
I kinda agree with pheex the tard, it's useless computation. There's no real out put, a gaming machine has some function but this just seems to be random computation for the sake of random computation. Couldnt they somehow pair it with SOMETHING? Similar concept to CAPTCHA.
06:06pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
21287 posts
Its not useless though, its computations used to decrypt and verify transactions in the blockchain isn't it? Theres no main server processing and verifying bitcoin transactions, its all distributed amongst the people who are 'mining' for the bit coins. Basically when you successfully decrypt a block, you get paid a bounty in BTC for the block and I think a small portion of the transaction fee from each transaction. Thats how you get the bitcoins, you're not just magically mining them by doing pointless calculations.
06:19pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36915 posts
yer greazy its not useless bro, its producing something worth money, approximately $1400 worth of something.
06:26pm 29/11/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10850 posts
if it sounds too good to be true...

who is buying the bitcoins off the millionaires ?
suppose i have a million dollars worth of bitcoins and i want to sell them right now.
who pays me my million ?

07:17pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14617 posts
People wanting to buy them.
07:49pm 29/11/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18966 posts
Haha ^
08:14pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14707 posts

suppose i have a million dollars worth of bitcoins and i want to sell them right now.
who pays me my million ?


Thousands of middle income earners who are being told that Bitcoins are the future by the millionaires.
When JP Morgan tells you to buy, you know it is time to sell.

08:17pm 29/11/13 Permalink
120NIN
12 posts
This stinks pretty bad. You'd have to be off ya rocker to buy em now. Seriously, give yourself an uppercut if you're thinking about it
08:33pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6365 posts
^ Don't listen to that! Buy Bitcoins! BUY BUY BUY!
09:47pm 29/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14618 posts
SELL SELL SELL
This stinks pretty bad. You'd have to be off ya rocker to buy em now. Seriously, give yourself an uppercut if you're thinking about it

You base this opinion on .. ?

There was a lot of random d***cheese opinion on this when it came out, and if we'd all ignored it in 2011 we'd be looking at 1000x returns today.

I'm going to send a couple hundred dorras at it on the understanding that its a speculative and risky investment that may or may not BE F*****G AWESOME
11:10pm 29/11/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
20825 posts
i lol at bitcoins.
11:29pm 29/11/13 Permalink
baz
Victoria
295 posts
Got no time for d***cheese opinions, no time at all.
12:02am 30/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36918 posts
i lol at bitcoins.


yer, they are totally not real or anything.
07:03am 30/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36919 posts
07:04am 30/11/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2511 posts
This stinks pretty bad. You'd have to be off ya rocker to buy em now. Seriously, give yourself an uppercut if you're thinking about it


I know 2 people who have recently dropped over 5K each into bitcoin..
08:12am 30/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14710 posts
Remember about a year ago ish, a little less. People were speaking like this about Gold. When it was $1900/oz... It is now $1250/oz, still much higher than it's historic value though.

09:12am 30/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14619 posts
Remember about a year ago ish, a little less. People were speaking like this about Gold. When it was $1900/oz... It is now $1250/oz, still much higher than it's historic value though.

Yeh but twice now this thing has spiked and I've decided it was not a good idea (and missed out on mad bank).

I'm fully prepared and happy (ok not happy but you get the idea) to lose my $200 on this thing, its not the end of the world, I throw more down on a good night out. But if they continue to grow in value and uptake and I don't get in I'll feel bad for not having the gumption to have a flutter. Basically, its a gamble and sometimes gambling can be fun yo ... my new sig is quite apt haha :)

Having said that its a pain in the arse to get onto the markets. If anyone has $200 of BTC (whatever the current mtgox rate is + a few percent commish) to trade let me know I'll send you AUD.
09:52am 30/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36920 posts
what you talking about hoggy?

its as simple as going into the bank and making a deposit after you set yourself up a wallet:

https://www.spendbitcoins.com/
10:10am 30/11/13 Permalink
TicMan
Melbourne, Victoria
8852 posts
Going into a bank? What is this, 2010! Let me use EFT or CC to get your silly digital money..
10:12am 30/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14712 posts
Didn't notice your sig Hoggy. Did you finish the entire series?
10:13am 30/11/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36921 posts
nope, have to go into the bank.

its fun!

i used to have an exchange that would let me tranfer cash in, but they went bust and stole my money.

f*** yuo cryptoxchange@!
10:29am 30/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
776 posts
i lol at bitcoins.

Nice, you're like me - ignorant of something that can make you a lot of money.

-----------

I see Butterfly labs is releasing a 600 Gigahash ASIC PCIe/USB card for about $5,000.

Using a calculator, at the current difficulty with $1200 per coin, 0.40kW/h power, 450 watts consumption over a period of 3 months. I could reap a bit over $50,000 in that amount of time worth of coins.

Sounds too good to be true.
11:02am 30/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14716 posts
There is still room for bitcoins to go up in price. Randoms on my Facebook haven't spoke about it yet, when they do that will probably be the top or near enough.
11:05am 30/11/13 Permalink
120NIN
13 posts
Well, after initially being quite dismissive of this as more or less just another pyramid scheme, I decided to do some research and I've kind of done a 180 and now think it could be an option lol

Seems that it very much hinges on it becoming a viable(and legal), acknowledged and accepted form of currency.

I think the idea is going to be embraced in one form or another though, meaning that if Bitcoin gets shut down another will just spring up(there's already other options) because of the sheer revolutionary nature of the idea, the liberalness(word?) of the whole concept will not now be easily suppressed, but yeah, it has to become an accepted form of currency in this particular case as eradication = loss of cashola

There's incentive for legal business to use the system and real potential for it to become a go to for online purchases by any consumer with access to the internet(currently 2.5 billion approx) but of course, legal business needs to pick it up for joe consumer to use it. But big business saving 2-3% on any transaction equals big incentive to make it work.

It does have alot of heavy hitters wanting it to be a success, that's undeniable but it also has alot gunning for it. No doubt it's a risk, but definitely worth throwing a few at it...good lord did I just say that
11:22am 30/11/13 Permalink
Strik3r
Brisbane, Queensland
2160 posts
Hoggy - Bitpiggy is an AUD bitcoin exchange that I have used a few times.

https://bitpiggy.heroku.com/
11:34am 30/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
779 posts
The thing is you have to outlay a fair amount of money on hardware in which, without bitcoins, is throwaway garbage unless someone brings out something else under the same type of encryption that's worth cracking.

$5,000 (More than 4 Titans) to do one very specific task, and it'll help you with no other task.

I did some math on GPU mining. If I mined using the rig in my sig below, after 3 months I'll be about $800 out of pocket due to power costs. - If the same system below consumed just 10 watts (yes, 10) then I would make about $30 in those 3 months.

The game is ASIC only now. You will mathematically lose with any GPU/CPU setup, you won't even break even.
11:36am 30/11/13 Permalink
120NIN
14 posts
You don't necessarily have to have dedicated equipment and software to mine them as such though?

I found this site, which appears to sell/source them

http://coinjar.io/

after it was mentioned in this article from a reasonably reputable(is there such a thing?!?) news source

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/aussies-plough-500000-into-bitcoin-start-up/story-fn91v9q3-1226771768669#
12:02pm 30/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
783 posts
No but the amount you get out of it will be much higher. Eg: Right now I can 'apparently' earn $50k per 3 months through mining, with a $5,000 outlay.

If I wanted to make that much through buy/sell, at a profit of lets say $200 per coin, I'd need to buy/sell 250 coins. That would be an outlay of $250,000-$300,000.

Unless I'm getting something mixed up.. This is why I'm not currently throwing money at ASIC miner cards as we speak. :(
12:08pm 30/11/13 Permalink
120NIN
15 posts
Oh ok, I see that you are thinking on a much bigger scale than I was, you want the whole enchilada ;)

Well, it's an interesting one. 5K(plus said expenses) is a fair amount of cash but at the same time, it's not going to bankrupt you if you lose it.

Are those figures of $50k/3 months verifiable though? And how long has it been producing those figures and how much longer will/can it potentially and how sustainable is it for the future(ie is the mining aspect inextricably linked to Bitcoin's surviving and thriving or can Bitcoin exist without the mining aspect?)??
12:43pm 30/11/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14717 posts

Are those figures of $50k/3 months verifiable though? And how long has it been producing those figures and how much longer will/can it potentially and how sustainable is it for the future(ie is the mining aspect inextricably linked to Bitcoin's surviving and thriving or can Bitcoin exist without the mining aspect?)??


$50k/3motnhs for $5k outlay? Scam alert!
12:44pm 30/11/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
784 posts
It's just using a bitcoin calculator and inserting real-world figures into it. You can do your own calculations, google bitcoin calculator - pick whichever one you like.

You throw in your own kw/h, the difficulty, hash rates, power consumption, time scale, even if you're in a pool etc. 600GH/s is a lot. A standalone machine doing 500GH/s comes in at 24k from the same company. This is the part that confuses me - the cards are also on a 3+ month pre-order so the difficulty will go up once or twice more before it'd even arrive.

I threw in a few basic figures for this system - about 400MH/s (120 per card, about 60 for the CPU so that's conservative) with a consumption of about 900 watts (probably more like 1000 watts) at 0.40kw/h (I don't have tarif meters here). I'd lose $800 or so per 3 months.

That's when I started changing numbers so I'd end up with a profit and as I said, this system would have to draw 10 watts of power. Hence ASIC machines/hardware is the 'only' way you'll profit with mining from here, unless your energy is less than like 1 cent per kw/h.

I chose http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ - With the stock calculations they use: At 0.15kw/h (about offpeak rates on tarif usually) you'd need to compute at a rate of 50GH/s and consume only 100 watts to make $2,400 in 3 months at the current difficulty. To put this into perspective, a GTX 680 will do 120MH/s at 200 watts. In this example, an ASIC miner is ~833 times more efficient at the same job per watt.

That aside, now you just need to look at the prices of ASIC hardware vs their compute power. I see a 600GH/s card for like $4,600 (give or take the fact it's a long preorder). The only thing that could be a scam is if the card doesn't perform anywhere near 600GH/s, or it's not real. Butterfly labs 500GH/s server was a long wait, and people thought it wouldn't ever eventuate - however now you can buy one instantly, they're in stock.

--------------

The mining isn't just making the transactions work. Big banks deal with way more transactions and don't throw anywhere near as much computer power at this stuff. If it was just transactions, when someone brings a massive bitcoin farm online everyone else would see a drop in system utilization. These things run 100% non-stop, so this indicates it's not just transactions. Bitcoin miners as a whole are computing at a rate of 64,000 petaflops as we speak.

So yeah, while I read all this stuff, I still don't get why we are pouring so much compute energy into this..
02:18pm 30/11/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14620 posts
Well, after initially being quite dismissive of this as more or less just another pyramid scheme, I decided to do some research and I've kind of done a 180 and now think it could be an option lol

Seems that it very much hinges on it becoming a viable(and legal), acknowledged and accepted form of currency.

This is the key to 7-figure coins, but it doesn't need to be legal really. There is not a lot that can be done to fight it, but the legality could hinder uptake a lot.

The recent boom in prices has apparently been at least in part due to money movements in and out of China. The idea is that the Chinese Government doesn't want local wealth being transferred to the West. They are very tight about currency exchange and have lots of regulation on their exchange rate.

If you wanted to move money out of china your options until recently were limited. BTC provides an anonymous digital cash mechanism and while the cash's value relative to the major has fluctuated wildly, the net movement has been obviously very much upwards which just reinforces the appeal. The movement of lots of yuan into BTC is resulting in some big surges in value.

The fundamentally independent nature of BTC from Government control has lots and lots of appeal. It could do amazing things in Africa for instance where lots of economic woes come from irresponsible Government control of money supply and the alternative use of USD etc has its own problems. If there is more takeup of the currency for use as actual international money (rather than investment speculation) regardless of whether the Governments of the world acknowledge it or not, then the price will rise ... lots.

Strik3r - cheers dude, just what I was looking for :)

Edit: no dice :(
We are re-opening registrations for the time being. Note due to risk of fraud new users are restricted to selling bitcoins only. We do plan to allow users to build trust down the track, but no feature has been build yet.

oh and
Didn't notice your sig Hoggy. Did you finish the entire series?

hahah not yet
12:08pm 01/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14621 posts
Sry for double post but I wanted to start a new arc about the currency side of BTC, the above is really ALL about the speculation / exchange rate to majors side.

Thinking about it this morning, lots of people wonder if BTC will pick up as a de facto digital currency, and questions over why would people flock to it when they already use cards. Its pretty simple really, but also once you really get it then its a pretty big deal.

At the moment, to buy something online you have to give out your CC details to the vendor's website. Every single time you do that, you hand over the password to your credit card, and basically just have to hope that they are sensible with your access details. You have a fallback position of handling fraudulent transactions if the vendor is hacked or is dodgy, but this sucks to manage, is inconvenient, and this risk is bound up in the cost of every transaction (sometimes you see it explicitly as a CC charge of a few percent). Even if you never have a fraudulent transaction, you pay for them.

You have no control over the actual charge. You are really just trusting that they charge the amount you say on the website, and sometimes their software f**** up and they double charge you. Or they get hacked or have bad practices and your details are leaked. You just give out the password to access your bank / credit account to every vendor and hope for the best, and have to manage the problem if the password is lost. You have a recovery pathway for fraudulent charges, but there is an insurance fee to VISA/MasterCard etc of a few percent on every single transaction. You pay for it even if you are never compromised.

Vendors must pay card gateways and live in fear of compromise. They have to write strict code in compliance with PCI DSS standards. Most on charge you for gateways to manage the transaction on their behalf. Every time I enter my cc details to a website I feel funky doing it for the above reasons.

It all f*****g sucks. It is expensive.

With BTC, you open your digital wallet and push the charge to the seller, just like handing over a crisp twenty. At no time do you give up your private key, you just announce the transaction to the network which establishes a consensus and adds this transaction to the BTC chain. Your only exposure is if the retailer does not deliver the goods or services, because you are the bank essentially. There is no element of trust required for the transaction aside from trusting the BTC network and protocol itself. There is no chance of wider exposure (aside from your local computer being haxed or your online wallet being lost, but that's YOUR security).

For online transactions with strangers, this is a big deal. It also means that you can voluntarily opt in or out of the insurance process. For a new buy, you might choose an escrow service (lots are popping up for btc now too). Once a trust relationship is established, you can choose to send money directly to the vendor.
01:14pm 01/12/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6367 posts
Bitcoin is not without it's problems though:

- Wild fluctuations in value due to speculation
- Incentive to keep the transaction network functional through mining dwindles at the 21 million bitcoin mark meaning after that it's back to VISA/MC like transaction fees.
- Digital wallet security concerns vs the general populace barely understanding the importance of backups and why they shouldn't click on executables from emails labelled "Hot Nude Girl Pics!"
- Absolute trust that the cryptographic primitives will remain secure in an age where advances in computational power threaten to destroy that security
etc

Historically the present banking system emerged as a solution to these sorts of problems. In the Bitcoin economy, hopefully the aforementioned problems will also sort themselves out over time and it will remain a viable payment system. You're right though Hog, the modern banking system does have more than it's fair share of issues as well but I'm not sure if returning to the days of keeping your gold coin purse on your person at all times is a great step forward.
02:07pm 01/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14622 posts
El responde!
- Wild fluctuations in value due to speculation

Yes. While a problem, to date the net value has increased. There's an expectation of stability though if the currency picks up and widens usage. Individual players are even now less able to influence the market. While there have been some big, sudden swings the week to week price has been pretty stable and outside the big surges is starting to look more like a tradition FX.

But at least for now an appetite for risk is certainly required.
- Incentive to keep the transaction network functional through mining dwindles at the 21 million bitcoin mark meaning after that it's back to VISA/MC like transaction fees.

Its P2P, though? Every connected wallet is part of the network. Interested to see if you have something on this, though.
- Digital wallet security concerns vs the general populace barely understanding the importance of backups and why they shouldn't click on executables from emails labelled "Hot Nude Girl Pics!"

This is always a problem, for all data and s*** that must be secure be it CC details or whatever. Its not about removing the personal security problem, it removed the vendor security probem. See below for a more full response.
- Absolute trust that the cryptographic primitives will remain secure in an age where advances in computational power threaten to destroy that security
etc

Probably the biggest issue at least theoretically. That said NP = P being solved changes the CS and math world fundamentally with massive ramifications, not just for BTC. I don't see brute force being a serious problem for an unreasonably long time. If there were holes in the fundamentals we'd probably know about it by now, she's a big beast with lots of money in it.

For now its better to mine than brute force. The Bitcoin Foundation has no authority but a consensus to release more blocks beyond 21M is a forseeable future as well.
Historically the present banking system emerged as a solution to these sorts of problems. In the Bitcoin economy, hopefully the aforementioned problems will also sort themselves out over time and it will remain a viable payment system. You're right though Hog, the modern banking system does have more than it's fair share of issues as well but I'm not sure if returning to the days of keeping your gold coin purse on your person at all times is a great step forward.

I don't see BTC replacing traditional banking, rather complementing it as a safe way to send cash online in the same way that EFT transactions will never really replace cash.

A person with an online bank could maybe one day soon set up a BTC account and buy digital currency directly from the bank, for example. Much the same way as you process a BPAY transaction you could send BTC to a wallet.

This ties in with the issues of network maintenance above as well (also there are a number of online wallets popping up that charge fees).
02:32pm 01/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6477 posts
Sold off over 20 that i had mind for ~$960 each. Good times. Also converted a few into litecoins when they where $2. Now around $40.
10:19pm 01/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6478 posts
[quote]
suppose i have a million dollars worth of bitcoins and i want to sell them right now.
who pays me my million ? [/quote]
The are called buyers, lol! Right now on one exchange there are 4764733.94 USD worth of buy orders. So yes, if you had 4,764,733.94 worth of btc you could exchange it now for cash.
10:24pm 01/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6479 posts
I found this site, which appears to sell/source them

yes, coin jar are great. Asher has donated coins to sponsor my meet up too www.meetup.com/bitcoinbrisbane
10:27pm 01/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6480 posts
I see Butterfly labs is releasing a 600 Gigahash ASIC PCIe/USB card for about $5,000.

Using a calculator, at the current difficulty with $1200 per coin, 0.40kW/h power, 450 watts consumption over a period of 3 months. I could reap a bit over $50,000 in that amount of time worth of coins.

Sounds too good to be true.

stay clear of butterfly labs. took over 9months to get my first order! you can have my 5ghs if you want.

Another QGL'r and i ordered some KNC miners. They arrived as scheduled in about 2 months. Mine is returning about 0.2btc per day. That will diminish quickly.

I've just ordered another 2x 2THS miners. One to be delivered in Dec. One in feb @ ~30BTC.

Should yield over 28btc in december alone.
10:30pm 01/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6481 posts
I can't help but feel you're getting/going to get f***ed. Clear enough?

This as a 10x lol now. $20k of cold hard cash in my bank cause of it.... is that clear enough? haha
10:36pm 01/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14626 posts
So yeah, while I read all this stuff, I still don't get why we are pouring so much compute energy into this..

Because money, lol.

If you're looking into mining, please consider:

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png

This is the difficulty curve. You'll notice the similarity between it and the market price!

The whole point of the BTC algorithm is that coins enter the world at a predictable rate. This means that as more computing power is thrown at the problem the harder the block hashes will become. Mining is as big a gamble on the price of these things as just buying some off the gox.

Also Friday has corrected, glad I couldn't jump in so quickly now ;) Gonna see how far the correction goes..
09:01am 02/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
797 posts
I've seen the graph and hence it's why you cannot make money from GPU mining anymore. The difficulty is past the point of no return in terms of performance per watt. You can only mine with ASIC, and you need to outlay money - just like all the miners on that graph have done. There will be no more efficient way of mining from here on in (give or take quantum computing).

Why do coins have to enter the world at a predictable rate? At the end of the day a service still costs a certain amount of cash, whether it's 50 bitcoins, or 0.01 bitcoins. People offering services for bitcoins aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot over bitcoin value. Still not convinced we have to consume all this electricity for the currency to work.

http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#The_value_of_bitcoins_are_based_on_how_much_electricity_and_computing_power_it_takes_to_mine_them
Myth: The value of bitcoins are based on how much electricity and computing power it takes to mine them

This statement is an attempt to apply to Bitcoin the labor theory of value, which is generally accepted as false. Just because something takes X resources to create does not mean that the resulting product will be worth X. It can be worth more, or less, depending on the utility thereof to its users.

In fact the causality is the reverse of that (this applies to the labor theory of value in general). The cost to mine bitcoins is based on how much they are worth. If bitcoins go up in value, more people will mine (because mining is profitable), thus difficulty will go up, thus the cost of mining will go up. The inverse happens if bitcoins go down in value. These effects balance out to cause mining to always cost an amount proportional to the value of bitcoins it produces.


http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_mining_is_a_waste_of_energy_and_harmful_for_ecology
Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy and harmful for ecology

No more so than the wastefulness of mining gold out of the ground, melting it down and shaping it into bars, and then putting it back underground again. Not to mention the building of big fancy buildings, the waste of energy printing and minting all the various fiat currencies, the transportation thereof in armored cars by no less than two security guards for each who could probably be doing something more productive, etc.

The argument is that we do so many other wasteful things on Earth that we shouldn't worry about the waste caused by bitcoin mining. That's like saying "Well Hitler killed millions and I can't even kill one? Unfair." - They do give examples of where you use the heat output to heat your home, therefore not using heaters and incurring no extra cost. I agree with that as you're going to heat your house anyways, although even still, folding@home to heat your house is even less of a ecological waste as the compute power goes into medicine, as well as heating your home. - They also talk about some countries having renewable energy and extremely cheap prices which again seems agreeable as it's not harmful such as a datacentre mining from a coal power station.

Eventually the difficulty will be so high that only in countries like this will it become profitable. I don't know where our energy prices sit with the rest of the world, but I'll assume we'll be one of the first countries that becomes unprofitable from mining, dependent on local energy costs.

Really, the way they excuse the energy costs on this site shows bias. They didn't directly address the question, but more to the point they talk about other 'wastes' in life to justify it. This shows I most likely have a point.
09:41am 02/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14722 posts

Eventually the difficulty will be so high that only in countries like this will it become profitable. I don't know where our energy prices sit with the rest of the world, but I'll assume we'll be one of the first countries that becomes unprofitable from mining, dependent on local energy costs.


Wait.


Eventually the difficulty will be so high that only in countries like this will it become profitable.



So the rich get richer and the poor stay poor? Well, that sir is what really keeps currency afloat. I guess Bitcoins are here to stay.
10:19am 02/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2515 posts
no it just means more people are mining and the return is slowing down.
11:53am 02/12/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36955 posts
a heap of btc getting dumped atm

http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/
07:52pm 05/12/13 Permalink
csirac
Brisbane, Queensland
3099 posts
im hearing btc is all but f***ed as of about 2 hours ago. Something about Chinese government dropping the hammer on the currency, and with no Chinese bubble it's allllllll f***ed. gg
11:47pm 05/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2517 posts
12:12am 06/12/13 Permalink
csirac
Brisbane, Queensland
3100 posts
lol whole of /r/bitcoinds are trolls. we shall see.
12:24am 06/12/13 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
633 posts
im hearing btc is all but f***ed as of about 2 hours ago. Something about Chinese government dropping the hammer on the currency, and with no Chinese bubble it's allllllll f***ed. gg


Well the exchanges haven't really flinched.

I have been pumping and dumping litecoins for the past week, making some fat stacks.
12:28am 06/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2518 posts
it will be fine again tomorrow. I am calling 1,500 by end of January.
12:43am 06/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6484 posts
I'm calling 2,200 by end of jan
litecoins about 85
09:43pm 06/12/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
36965 posts
litecoins will go through the roof when they start getting accepted in more places
07:47am 07/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14649 posts
If China dropped the hammer that's really awks for the current price.

(Un)fortunately through a series of crazy events I was unable to actually buy any BTC. Gonna wait a bit now but I still think its probably a thing. World needs and is ready for virtual cash and the Chinese Govt getting shirty about it actually says good things about the concept, if also terible things about the price for now :)
08:59am 07/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2519 posts
If China dropped the hammer that's really awks for the current price. (Un)fortunately through a series of crazy events I was unable to actually buy any BTC. Gonna wait a bit now but I still think its probably a thing. World needs and is ready for virtual cash and the Chinese Govt getting shirty about it actually says good things about the concept, if also terible things about the price for now :)


There is speculation that it will only happen with bitcoin because the creator is Japanese. Other cyrpto's have gone unscathed by the Chinese gov.
10:30am 07/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14650 posts
There is speculation that it will only happen with bitcoin because the creator is Japanese. Other cyrpto's have gone unscathed by the Chinese gov.

Other cryptos were not nearly gaining the market penetration or threatening RMB as a unit of exchange. For example they recently crushed QQ.

This thread by an apparent Chinese national is very interesting. Its quite easy to read it as saying that takeup of BTC as a unit of exchange was booming (which makes sense given the sheer amount of the currency purchased by speculators, buying and holding is nice but a liquid investment you can easily spend a bit of to buy a tasty fried chicken's foot from a vendor is also good). The big warning alert for them would be Baidu (think Chinese Google) trading in bitcoins for virtual transactions.

China is the first Government to really have their fiat even peripherally challenged by BTC. They've declared it non-money (with the notable 'for now' inclusion). I think its just moving too fast and they don't know what to do about it.

Like pretty much everyone else.
11:40am 07/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2520 posts
Interesting.

Also for those who havent seen this, it's a visual reprenstation of the blockchain. I could go to sleep watching this.

http://www.bitlisten.com/

just saw 2 transactions of 5000btc roll through before, cool deep note on those ones
11:47am 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14748 posts
China doesn't allow its citizens to invest in foreign investments easily. Bitcoins is/was a way around that hence the massive uptake in China. Not so much because Bitcoins have inherent value, just that it is one of the few things Chinese citizens can invest in that isn't real estate. As a side note that is why there is so much invested in Chinese real estate.

I believe Gold is another 'foreign' thing the Chinese citizens are allowed to invest in.
11:50am 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14750 posts
815USD and dropping....
12:04pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14651 posts
China doesn't allow its citizens to invest in foreign investments easily. Bitcoins is/was a way around that hence the massive uptake in China. Not so much because Bitcoins have inherent value, just that it is one of the few things Chinese citizens can invest in that isn't real estate. As a side note that is why there is so much invested in Chinese real estate.

I believe Gold is another 'foreign' thing the Chinese citizens are allowed to invest in.

Yeh but their Government buys the s*** out of it lol

Its worth noting that the Chinese Government hasn't actually blocked private ownership and trading of BTC at all. The recent announcement is all about using it as money.
815USD and dropping....

This is kinda neat: http://bitcoinity.org/markets

She gonna tank a bit over this. The whole point of BTC aside from a speculation game is using it as money. Clamping down on that in the market that apparently owns lots and lots of coins isn't going to help.
12:11pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14751 posts
A common Stop loss just hit it seems, at just below 805USD a ton of tiny little bubbles came up. That is an awesome site Hoggy.

Now for a bounce at 800USD and up perhaps.
12:12pm 07/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
855 posts
I'd lol if this was a huge US Government scam engineered to push China into buying them all before they pull it down and its worth nothing.
12:22pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14752 posts
lol 722 now, wasn't much of a bounce
12:22pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14753 posts
Not enough volume at the highs for that ph33x.
12:24pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14652 posts
lol what index / site is that? I have gox at 820 I reckon she could tank pretty hard still

As for ph33x ... wtf
12:26pm 07/12/13 Permalink
csirac
Brisbane, Queensland
3101 posts
/popcorn
12:29pm 07/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
856 posts
As for ph33x ... wtf

Awh come on man, you're still upset by the beatdown in the Internet thread? Don't worry about it, getting called out on the Internet shouldn't be all that new.

Don't be grudgy dude, especially against me, you'll only fall deeper into depression. ;)

Not enough volume at the highs for that ph33x.

Totally understandable! Churs.
12:31pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14754 posts
I'm just looking at that bitlisten site and the bitstamp price. It is probably delayed 20 mins or so.
12:32pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14653 posts
Awh come on man, you're still upset by the beatdown in the Internet thread? Don't worry about it, getting called out on the Internet shouldn't be all that new.

What the hell is this all about? Did I miss something and you nee an uppercut somewhere? You're just another f***wit on a forum, I hold no grudges.
12:41pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14755 posts
Ph33x, Hoggy is far to resilient for that s*** to even stick.
12:43pm 07/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
858 posts
What the hell is this all about? Did I miss something and you nee an uppercut somewhere? You're just another f***wit on a forum, I hold no grudges.

Yep, he's mad. Call me all the names under the sun champ, it only makes me get more popcorn.

Unless you feel that throwing baseless insults across the Internet has some kind of merit or power to it.
12:53pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6372 posts
/popcorn

Sell Bitcoins! SELL SELL SELL!
12:59pm 07/12/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
629 posts
650

if u were buying at 950 you would be sweating
01:13pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14756 posts
I recon it is gunna bounce for a bit soon.
01:18pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2521 posts
if you want to get into bitcoins you should buy right now, it wont be this low again for some time
01:20pm 07/12/13 Permalink
XandraX
Brisbane, Queensland
1185 posts
If you want to get into real estate you should buy right now, it won't be this low again for some time
01:41pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14757 posts
If you want to get into gold you should buy right now, it won't be this low again for some time.



^^ was said at 1800...
01:42pm 07/12/13 Permalink
mental
Brisbane, Queensland
4053 posts
I don't think the Chinese are selling much, I believe it's the Americans panic selling.
03:39pm 07/12/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
632 posts
Ive had that bitlisten thing and a few exchanges live trade windows open in the back ground all day. Its interesting.

I don't think the Chinese are selling much, I believe it's the Americans panic selling.


Would it not depend on what exchange you are watching?

Im watching Bitstamp and its mainly USD, with some japanese and aussies.

I also noticed that different exchanges can have very different prices. At one point Gox was at 777 while Bitstamp was sitting at 720. Or are they all somehow connected? They don't seem to be?

Im not sure the china thing will make a difference. I read the forbes article on it and what alarmed me was that they (who ever they are) are removing anonymity from bitcoins. Like you need to ID yourself to get a trading account under the guise that they have to *stop money laundering. No really we have no desire to track normal people to spy on how they are spending their own money. honest. Ps - please report anyone you see to authorities if you see them doing something naughty. That is all. back to work."

Id say that the loss of anonymity would harm bitcoins more than China allowing it to be a recognised currency?
03:48pm 07/12/13 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
636 posts
I watch the prices across all exchanges on here, https://bitcoinaverage.com/#USD|nomillibit

Bitcoin has been cut in half.
07:22pm 07/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14758 posts
It lost almost 50% in one day. Volatile much?
07:54pm 07/12/13 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
635 posts
the question investors are prob asking now is: buy now hoping it will go up to previous heights

an interesting proposition for investors

If it could go either way, and goes up, from where im sitting that would be a nice pay day

at 700 a bitcoin it would be an expense gamble

If you play it right and the market moves in the direction you hope there are fine rewards
08:37pm 07/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6485 posts
at 700 a bitcoin it would be an expense gamble

yep, buying at $5 was good :D

litecoin is where you can still make decent profit.
10:23pm 08/12/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18981 posts
in the longer term ie. 10 - 15 years

where do you see bitcoins going?
10:48am 09/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
870 posts
in the longer term ie. 10 - 15 years

where do you see bitcoins going?

In that time frame there will surely be a new currency out and bitcoin will be one of many.
11:02am 09/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14766 posts
10 - 15 years is a very long time in world economy news. Heck there is a pretty good chance of a significant war in that time frame imo.
11:05am 09/12/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37026 posts
btc price diving, in a big way.
10:19pm 18/12/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10888 posts
How's my Million dollars worth of Bitcoins doing this week compared to last week when I wanted to sell them to you guys ?

11:55pm 18/12/13 Permalink
Rdizz
Germany
2534 posts
3rd real crash I have been a part of with btc. Still up and I am glad this one is happening because people have been using bitcoins for the wrong reason. I hope that this filters out all the basement dewller 'investors' and keeps the people around that actually believe in this currency and it's purpose instead of trying to make a quick buck.

I still stand that it will be at around $1k in feb.
06:31am 19/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14845 posts
It is having another little bounce, they call them dead cat bounces.
09:17am 19/12/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6488 posts
I got contacted by channel 10 about doing a story on bit coins, so watch this space!

Mate and i will be at bardon markets sunday selling bit coins if anyones interested.
07:56pm 19/12/13 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2275 posts
Bit disappointing I didn't jump on this when it started, pick up a bunch dirt cheap, and sell them for millions the past couple of months!

Think I might buy a couple now while it's at a low, just as a gamble investment.
08:06pm 19/12/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37032 posts
Mate and i will be at bardon markets sunday selling bit coins if anyones interested.


these ones?

https://www.casascius.com/
08:11pm 19/12/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
14853 posts
At a quick glance a reasonable value for bitcoins would be around 250-300ish. If you look at the yearly chart you can see the trend line around there, but it went balls out over the last few months in an unsustainable ramp. Now you would have to ask, is 250USD/coin a 'reasonable' price, how can you derive their worth other than pure speculation?

There is extreme volatility with these things, any money sunk into them at this point would be almost pure gambling. Plenty of reason for downside from these levels with less reason for higher prices.

08:16pm 19/12/13 Permalink
TicMan
Melbourne, Victoria
8877 posts
Thread title might become truth soon!
08:17pm 19/12/13 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
1519 posts
I decided to try a little Litecoin mining today, just to try it. For a few hours work I now have 0.00059399 LTC

I could put my old video card (gtx260) in my old PC and use that for casual mining.
11:39pm 19/12/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10906 posts
On Friday, December 20, Matt Miller surprised his two fellow anchors – Adam Johnson and Trish Regan – with bitcoin gift certificates during his “12 Days of Bitcoin” segment. Johnson then flashed his certificate on the screen for roughly 10 seconds - more than enough time for a Reddit user to scan the digital QR code with his phone and take the gift for himself.


http://rt.com/usa/bloomberg-anchor-robbed-bitcoin-747/

01:00am 28/12/13 Permalink
FraktuRe
Gold Coast, Queensland
4555 posts
mtgox still hasn't verified my account in nearly a month :/

Is there any sites that I can use from my f*****g computer without having to go to a goddamn bank to deposit money in from Aus?
01:16am 28/12/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37103 posts
no, just go to the bank, its not that hard.
06:18am 28/12/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19052 posts
Too many dodgies reversing transactions and s*** after getting their bitcoins

Just go to the bank
08:26am 28/12/13 Permalink
Moridin
Wollongong, New South Wales
32 posts
Localbitcoins.com you can do online transfers to Oz banks. If your commonwealth it's instant, you can only get upto $600 or thereabouts on your first go but you build up a reputation as reliable buyer and you get better limits and deals. Look for BitbankAu never had a problem with this dude. Highly recommend the site
09:25am 28/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1025 posts
Seeing many smaller coins come out now, such as Fedora, Earthcoin, Doge and a ton of others. A mining community I'm part of is currently mining about 15 different types of coins. Sometimes they win and lose depending on the coin and exchange. They typically trade them for litecoin or bitcoins.
12:25pm 29/12/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19058 posts
Doge coins were basically a troll weren't they?
12:28pm 29/12/13 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1026 posts
As of 2 hours ago they were mining doge, but I think there are derivatives of it, like 'suchcoin' - Which looks like it was hacked, or "shut down" about a day ago.
12:39pm 29/12/13 Permalink
csirac
Brisbane, Queensland
3106 posts
3rd real crash I have been a part of with btc. Still up and I am glad this one is happening because people have been using bitcoins for the wrong reason. I hope that this filters out all the basement dewller 'investors' and keeps the people around that actually believe in this currency and it's purpose instead of trying to make a quick buck.

I still stand that it will be at around $1k in feb.


The only way btc can be worth 1k is due to speculators and people that you believe are using it for the wrong reason. Good luck lol.
01:10pm 29/12/13 Permalink
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