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Overwatch Retribution Delivers Fun PvE Story Content
Where we talk about lessons learned, the early experiments, and the evolution of PvE Overwatch.
Talking Overwatch Retribution with Game Director Jeff Kaplan
Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26024 posts
Trump is looking to scrap DACA. What is DACA?

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is an American immigration policy established by the Obama administration in June 2012. DACA allows certain illegal immigrants who entered the country as minors to receive a renewable two-year period of deferred action from deportation and eligibility for a work permit.


So basically people who have entered the country illegally at no fault of their own due to the fact that they were children.

Trump is ordering a mass deportation of people who have done nothing wrong and in the vast majority of cases have established themselves as productive and valued members of their community. All so he can be seen to be dismantling Obama's work and to appease his racist followers.

Oh, and no-one has seen a penny of that million dollars he said he'd donate. He also said he'd donate to Hurricane Sandy but never did.
12:36pm 07/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3172 posts
01:19pm 07/09/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21358 posts
All so he can be seen to be dismantling Obama's work and to appease his racist followers.


i am struggling to see how it isn't anything but this..
01:19pm 07/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5528 posts


i am struggling to see how it isn't anything but this..


It's all part of the plan to make America great again!
03:02pm 07/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26025 posts
It's all part of the plan to make America great white again!
03:03pm 07/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2740 posts
i am struggling to see how it isn't anything but this..


Has it got fpot calling a bunch of people he knows less than nothing about racist? If yes, that's what it was.
06:27pm 07/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2741 posts
here is one from the Atlantic just for you phooks. Rape culture isn't a thing.

A central tenet of advocates seeking greater accountability for sexual assault is that the complainant is virtually always the one telling the truth. As a 2014 White House report, “Rape and Sexual Assault: A Renewed Call to Action,” stated, “Only 2–10 percent of reported rapes are false.” Campus materials aimed at students make similar assertions.

But as Michelle J. Anderson, the president of Brooklyn College and a scholar of rape law, acknowledged in a 2004 paper in the Boston University Law Review, “There is no good empirical data on false rape complaints either historically or currently.” The data have not improved since that time. In a 2015 working paper, Lieutenant Colonel Reggie Yager, a U.S. Air Force judge advocate who has defended men accused of sexual assault, took a comprehensive look at the research on the incidence of false rape reports, and concluded that the studies confirming the overwhelming veracity of accusers are methodologically unsound.


I wonder where the white house got a stat with no solid empirical basis from eh? maybe it was activist research. just maybe.
06:53pm 07/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39163 posts
Trump is looking to scrap DACA. What is DACA?
Like (I have to assume) almost everyone else in the world I'd never heard of this DACA thing until the last week.

I found the Slashdot comments quite interesting on this topic. There were many people saying DACA was Obama overstepping the bounds of the Executive in an un-Constitutional manner. But there are just as many people saying it was fine because Congress actually did empower the Executive to deal with this issue (also if only because it was apparently never successfully challenged while he was in office). #55141729 probably the best single post summary that looks at both sides. This referenced Tweetstorm is interesting too, from an Obama staffer listing why it is/was always likely to be wound back.

Basically it's one of those things that I think comes down to various massively complicated subtleties in law so it's much much easier just to outsource the decision to pre-defined notions or your favourite talking heads. I don't need any more evidence to think that Trump is a douchenozzle but I confess I'd probably be in favour of winding back un-Constitutional legislation (but that's not what this is from the above referenced comment, it's just a policy?? f***)
07:14pm 07/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3173 posts
Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator’s first line of defense. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure that no one listens. . . . After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it on herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on.

We are still in an era of battles over who will be granted the right to speak and the right to be believed, and pressure comes from both directions. From the “men’s rights” movement and a lot of popular misinformation comes the baseless notion that there is an epidemic of groundless accusations of sexual assault. The implication that women as a category are unreliable and that false rape charges are the real issue is used to silence individual women and to avoid discussing sexual violence, and to make out men as the principal victims. The framework is reminiscent of that attached to voter fraud, a crime so rare in the United States that it appears to have had no significant impact on election outcomes in a very long time.

A friend of mine who works in sexual-harassment prevention training at a major university reports that when she gave a presentation at the business school on her campus, one of the older male professors asked, “Why would we start an investigation based on only one woman’s report?” She has dozens of stories like this, and others about women — students, employees, professors, researchers — struggling to be believed, especially when they testify against high-status offenders.

This summer, antediluvian columnist George Will claimed that there is only a “supposed campus epidemic of rape,” and that when universities or feminists or liberals “make victimhood a coveted status that confers privileges, victims proliferate.” Young women replied by creating the Twitter hashtag #survivorprivilege, posting remarks such as “I didn’t realize it was a privilege to live with PTSD, severe anxiety & depression” and “#ShouldIBeQuiet because when i spoke out everyone said it was a lie?” Will’s column hardly even constitutes a twist on the old idea that women are naturally unreliable, that there’s nothing to see in all these rape charges, and that we should just move along.

I should have offered proof, as though proof were possible. I am like bad people who distort facts. I am subjective but believe I am objective; I feel but confuse feeling with thinking or knowing. It’s such a familiar litany and a familiar rage.

If we could recognize or even name this pattern of discrediting, we could bypass recommencing the credibility conversation every time a woman speaks.


If you're a right wing authoritarian reading this, you'll be offended for whatever reason, perhaps because the feminists are coming to get you (and your church). Everyone else will realise that thousands of survivors are failed by the system, and they need support and frameworks to help them come forward, male and female.
10:58pm 07/09/17 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4314 posts
well DACA does sound much more PC than wetback i suppose
12:08am 08/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2742 posts
If you're a right wing authoritarian reading this, you'll be offended for whatever reason, perhaps because the feminists are coming to get you (and your church). Everyone else will realise that thousands of survivors are failed by the system, and they need support and frameworks to help them come forward, male and female.


If you're a nominally functional adult you'll be able to see that even if what she say is true it doesn't justify wholesale repeal of fundamental rights. You'll also notice she refers to sexual harassment which as bad as it *can* be is often not bad at all. You'll notice victims of being looked at get referred as "survivors" just the same as victims of gang rapes.


1) limited political pluralism; that is, such regimes place constraints on political institutions and groups like legislatures, political parties and interest groups;
2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency;
3) minimal social mobilization most often caused by constraints on the public such as suppression of political opponents and anti-regime activity;
4) informally defined executive power with often vague and shifting powers.


Title IX is an executive order, with *undefined*, not vaguely defined, offenses justified on the emotive grounds that we have failed survivors, and if due process rights have to be suspended well we need to address this easily recognizable societal problem. Courts are recognizing this phooks. All those rawcist judges are awarding against title IX investigations in favour of the "perpetrator".

I found an LWA without even looking for one. How did old mate f*** that up. Maybe he wasn't really trying. I think he may want "right wing" to walk hand in hand with "authoritarian". Like really badly.

See this is why its easier just to skip to calling you a f*****g moron phooks. You demonstrated from the outset you had no interest in an actual discussion. You want to call people who disagree with you right wing authoritarians or ideologues and that's fine.

comments like this

See, this middle road is such a dangerous ideology in itself, not because it assumes that experts should be making all the practical decisions, but because it gives into the false equivalency of balance that legitimises the views of those like PP. Democracy itself exists for a reason, and you should get off the fence.


would be quicker if you just wrote

View which disagree with my own are a false equivalency.


You wanted to be called a moron, and I'm happy to do it. I see no reason to change the arrangement
07:32am 08/09/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21359 posts
Basically it's one of those things that I think comes down to various massively complicated subtleties in law so it's much much easier just to outsource the decision to pre-defined notions or your favourite talking heads. I don't need any more evidence to think that Trump is a douchenozzle but I confess I'd probably be in favour of winding back un-Constitutional legislation (but that's not what this is from the above referenced comment, it's just a policy?? f***)


fair enough

not sure other republican presidents would do it though, without the seeming vendetta trump has to destroy everything obama did
08:29am 08/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3174 posts
Pp I will be blunt. You have established in this thread you care deeply about due process for Nazis, white supremacists, and men charged with rape.

You have championed for those who are in the majority, for those with historical and current privileges, and for traditional family values.

You have trivialised sexual offences, and made fun of survivors of assault and abuse.

At all instances you have questioned credibility on sources and evidence only when it is against your own worldview.

I don't expect you to care about why this is an issue because like most RWAs, all you see is threat to the current order, and therefore a threat to you. You are so numb to what you're saying. I encourage you to see the world for what it is, and for what it can be. There is beauty in diversity, and the world is not a dangerous place. There is no a need for a big ego, you are not under threat.
10:33am 08/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3176 posts
Perhaps I can encourage you to check your own biases with a simple question.

"You suck d****!" is an insult. Why is that?
03:16pm 08/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39165 posts
fair enough

not sure other republican presidents would do it though, without the seeming vendetta trump has to destroy everything obama did
doing it right now while Texas is underwater and people are fleeing Florida for fear of the biggest hurricane ever seems like misplaced priorities

Spoke to a colleague in Florida yesterday; they are battening down the hatches with supplies but are not leaving (Miami) because they don't want to get stuck on the roads in a hurricane with no gas. It is still days away (I think?) but it sounds like people are pretty on edge. Hopefully the f*****g thing dies in the next few days but it sounds like there is still plenty of heat in the ocean for it to power off.
05:10pm 08/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2743 posts
Pp I will be blunt. You have established in this thread you care deeply about due process for Nazis, white supremacists, and men charged with rape.


You have championed for those who are in the majority, for those with historical and current privileges, and for traditional family values.

You have trivialised sexual offences, and made fun of survivors of assault and abuse.

At all instances, you have questioned credibility on sources or evidence only when it is against your own worldview. I don't expect you to care about why this is an issue because like most RWAs, you are so numb to what you're saying. All you see is threat to the current order, and therefore threat to you.

I encourage you to see the world for what it is, and for what it can be. There is beauty in diversity, and the world is not a dangerous place. There isn't a need for a big ego, you are not under threat


Phooks darling let me explain to you very clearly and very patiently why this post is incoherent drivel.

I have pointed out that those groups have rights. Those rights are enshrined explicitly in the US constitution, in the ICCPR and to varying degrees implicitly in the Australian constitution.

I have also pointed out that if you are going to brawl in the streets with someone exercising their inalienable rights, in a civilised democracy, you are the problem. Even, and perhaps especially, when those views are taboo or morally reprehensible.

The nature of their “historical and current privilege” is not and has never been relevant to the content of their rights.

Whether you like it or not Nazis and white supremacists represent an immeasurably small minority in the US and Australia. So the idea that I have stood up for a racist majority trampling the rights of minorities is absurd, factually wrong and a clumsy insult.

I have at no point trivialised sexual crimes much less made fun of survivors and I have discussed zero rapists. I have mocked, quite correctly, the ridiculous concept that we in Australia live in rape culture. I have mocked you for trying to suggest that some sexual *harassment* is evidence of a *rape* culture.

I have attacked the idea that right wing authoritarianism is something that should be taken seriously, because the survey you linked to was a bald faced political document. And to demonstrate my point, you can pore over my posts. You will not find a value judgement in relation to “traditional family values”. Your ability to project notwithstanding. I have expressed no opinion at all in relation to them. I have stated you can disagree with that phrase with out expressing a value judgement which you have rather hysterically characterised as “championing” traditional family values.

As for attacking things that don't support my "world view", what the f*** do you propose you are doing? I haven't seen you attempt to point out the glaring faults in the s*** you post champ. for example

We are still in an era of battles over who will be granted the right to speak and the right to be believed


The right to be believed isn't a thing, and most certainly isn't a thing in a criminal matter, the literal point of a criminal trial is to determine who should be believed.

The one I particularly love is that we don't live in a dangerous world but we also live in a rape culture. *amazing*. and for the reading impaired. That sentence expresses no judgement at all on whether we in fact live in a dangerous world. So spare me the vulgar psycho analysis. It would be funny if you weren't qualified.
06:49pm 08/09/17 Permalink
taggs
6507 posts
+1

PP sometimes gets lost in the internet dweeby agrumenty weeds but good post IMO.


Genuinely interested in good faith responses.
08:40pm 08/09/17 Permalink
wubs
Brisbane, Queensland
1 posts
What to do about the anti SSM and ACL ads?
10:52pm 08/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3177 posts

Yet another enlightened post from the RWA.

PP your interpretation of rape culture is that rape is endorsed explicitly by a society. Wrong.

Your interpretation of psychological literature regarding RWAs is very poor.

The nature of their "historical and current privilege" is not and has never been relevant to the content of their rights.


Wrong. History and politics play an important role in developing or recognizing rights, and the discussion about which behaviours are included as "rights" is an ongoing political topic of importance. The concept of rights varies with political orientation.

"championing" traditional family values.


family values
plural noun
values especially of a traditional or conservative kind which are held to promote the sound functioning of the family and to strengthen the fabric of society

going to brawl in the streets with someone exercising their inalienable rights, in a civilised democracy, you are the problem. Even, and perhaps especially, when those views are taboo or morally reprehensible.


A great insight into where you, and the rest of your camp, get your moral compass from - authority. Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws. Legal rights can be seen as unnecessary, as social contracts are not essential for deontic moral action. For more information; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development#Post-Conventional

I haven't seen you attempt to point out the glaring faults in the s*** you post champ. for example


I'm yet to see someone point out a valid criticism. I love being wrong, and recognise I am biased in my own ways, if anyone can see valid flaws in logic (meme posting notwithstanding) I invite them to point it out.
02:50pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3178 posts
For instace if I see Hitler 2.0 walking the streets, you bet your ass imma punch him the f*** out. PP be the guy standing behind the riot police, clapping on the cops putting me in jail as an enemy of the state for punching a respected politician
03:12pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5529 posts
You're wasting your time Phooks. He'll exhaust you with wall of texts and then think he's destroying you. Ego the size of a house.

The holy Constitution, a document that supported slavery until amendment. How long until the alt-right amends it to remove the rights of minorities?

PP is only a protector of justice & freedom for as much as it suits his world view. If the democratic process brought in Slavery again, no doubt he'd champion it for how wonderful democracy is for allowing such opposing views to enter law.
03:35pm 09/09/17 Permalink
taggs
6508 posts
For instace if I see Hitler 2.0 walking the streets, you bet your ass imma punch him the f*** out. PP be the guy standing behind the riot police, clapping on the cops putting me in jail as an enemy of the state for punching a respected politician


One of the fundamental principles underpinning modern society is that the state has a monopoly on violence other than self defence. You might think you're doing a "good" when you punch hitler 2.0 and in a world where 100% of the population agrees you're punching hitler 2.0 maybe you are. What if only 90% of the population agrees with you? 60%? 30%?

Internet toughguy posturing aside surely you're intelligent enough to see how stupid that sort of idea is?
03:53pm 09/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2744 posts
PP your interpretation of rape culture is that rape is endorsed explicitly by a society. Wrong.

Your interpretation of psychological literature regarding RWAs is very poor.


Just so you know phooks, calling me an RWA isn't getting under my skin. It's just making you look stupid.

Rape culture phooks, is the claim that rape is pervasive in society and implicitly or explicitly endorsed in said society. So if anything I was being generous in my interpretation. Nevertheless that is a empirically false claim, and you have not posted a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. You've posted emotive crap with zero reference to data, and the data you have posted does not on any reasonable interpretation support your claim.

If RWA is not a pathetic exercise in confirmation bias, why are you still talking about traditional family values phooks. I have still literally said nothing about family values traditional or otherwise. You are so far up your own ass you're incapable of seeing that apparently.

Wrong. History and politics play an important role in developing or recognizing rights, and the discussion about which behaviours are included as "rights" is an ongoing political topic of importance. The concept of rights varies with political orientation.


When you can point to a rights document which states these rights are contingent on historical and current privilege I'll take you seriously. You're going to be looking for a while though phooks because they don't exist.

The point of *universal* human rights is that all humans get them you utter utter moron. I love how you link to someone who says universalism is the highest form of moral development then argue with a straight face that human rights should be applied with consideration of "privilege" in mind. Genius.

Noted RWAs the ACLU agree with my interpretation on the right to free speech.

A great insight into where you, and the rest of your camp, get your moral compass from - authority.


Oh look you at go phooks. How did you pull authority out of those two sentences? it's like magic. I guess we're back to you just making up your own arguments. Did you get up on Nadal?

If you see hitler 2.0 you're going to do nothing of the sort, I doubt you've even said boo to an elected official.

but read in conjunction with

There is no a need for a big ego, you are not under threat.


Champagne comedy.

He'll exhaust you with wall of texts and then think he's destroying you.


You self-destruct Vash, and are too stupid to know it.
04:09pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5530 posts
Nothing shows insecurity more than a big ego and calling everyone stupid.
It's okay PP. You're loved, everything will be OK.
04:18pm 09/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2745 posts
Oh Vash. the s*** that comes out of you when poked really does make it all worthwhile.
04:46pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3297 posts
Taking it upon yourself to punch Hitler 2.0 if you see him walking the streets is basically vigilante or mob justice, no? Where's the end of that thought process? We decree certain ideologies punishable by death and cull all the racists, xenophobes, bigots, conservatives, people that disagree with you?

Why's it so difficult to see that the rule of law that underpins our civilisation not only protects you but also people that have differing views to you?

Antifa is no better than the white supremacists given the violent and authoritarian tendencies they have, imo. Not to mention rolling out to get into street fights with neonazis is hardly the way to stop them, violence begets violence. The illogicality and hypocrisy of the far left is pretty astonishing tbh. The political spectrum really is a horse shoe with the far left and the far right actually being pretty close to each other.

I thought this was cool: The hilarious way a German town turned neo-Nazis against Nazism
08:27pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3179 posts

Just so you know phooks, calling me an RWA isn't getting under my skin.


You do however keep arguing against it's very existence, and trying to fight for the same phenomenon in left wingers, which is the -exact- response you would expect from an RWA. Hence the funny.

The whole 'under threat' thing is playing to the insecurities of the right - the world is a dangerous place specifically because feminists, gays, refugees, atheists and ethnic minorities (basically any minority or outgroup, not any specific one) are coming to steal your jobs/rights/church/etc, and that is evil that needs to be combated with 'necessary evils' like a strong military, nationalism, capital punishment, capitalism, religion and conservative economics.

Hence the whole 'you're under threat, you need a strong leader' stuff the liberals pull all the time.

Where's the end of that thought process?


At the hitler 2.0 part? whu-oh, it's the slippery slope train, next stop, the war on drugs!

the far left and the far right actually being pretty close to each other.


I feel like we're going in circles here. Vash had a nice diagram for you up a few posts

violence begets violence.


Which is exactly why forcing the boats to turn back, at the likely cost of the lives of valid refugees and asylum seekers, was -such- a great idea. (Protip; regressive refugee policies weren't the best long term solution)
policies of deterrence also come at a very high economic cost to Australia and have a significant negative impact on Australia’s strategic interests internationally.
https://www.unicef.org.au/blog/news-and-insights/september-2016/the-true-cost-of-australias-refugee-policies
09:01pm 09/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26027 posts
Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that letting the nazis have their say and hoping it all peters out into nothing may be a critical mistake that has historic precedent? I am not talking about targeting them with violence, but they must be protested. Maybe it's not possible for these large groups to clash peacefully. I know so far only one of the groups has committed a terrorist act.

The risk isn't the USA becoming a 1930s/40s style nazi state with death camps. The risk is the possibility of the nazis gaining any sort of political influence at all. In a healthy democracy with competent leadership and a well educated public willing to critically think their way through problems I agree the nazi threat would be zero. At the moment we have a rogue president who has vocally supported the nazis and implemented policies that support their agenda (giant walls, mass deportations etc). We also have an American public either dumb or disenfranchised enough to vote him in. The police force in the USA is absolutely f***ed and if anyone is hoping they'll be the ones to save them they're going to be disappointed.
09:16pm 09/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2746 posts
You do however keep arguing against it's very existence, and trying to fight for the same phenomenon in left wingers, which is the -exact- response you would expect from an RWA. Hence the funny.


Sounds a little like that can't be falsified there phooks. Hence funny.

Just you get out there and punch those imaginary nazis Ted Kaczynski.

Just note that when people shoot up mosques you can't complain. You said it was ok to be violent to your political opponents. The idea you call anyone "authoritarian" is truly Orwellian.

HEY YOU KNOW WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT REFUGEES AND STRONG LEADERS. NOONE. TAKE A DAY OFF YOU WEIRDO.

I know so far only one of the groups has committed a terrorist act.


Remember when that bernie supporter shot members of congress. Me too.

At the moment we have a rogue president who has vocally supported the nazis


Provide a single quote where this has happened. Just one.
09:26pm 09/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3180 posts
12:13am 10/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39167 posts
One of the fundamental principles underpinning modern society is that the state has a monopoly on violence other than self defence.
In normal circumstances I 100% agree wtih you. I cannot think of a situation in which I would tolerate citizens using violence against a person or group, without their safety being at stake.

But it's important to remember that this rationale is based on one thing: the state going out of its way to defend its citizens. If the state is failing in that duty (e.g., there are hordes of brownshirts wandering the streets beating up people based on their genetic makeup) and the safety, liberty, health and lives of others are compromised, then arguably civil disobedience (i.e., punching Nazis) could be a fairly logical next step.

This would be, more or less, the point of a major societal breakdown and I think it's fairly obvious (except the weeny tiny number of anti-fascist punchers, a number smaller than even that of the Nazis) that we're not near that point - but there are very worrying signs, e.g., the total, spectacular failure of the President of the United States to simply and immediately condemn actual, literal Nazis that exist in his country and are stirring, as a direct result of his other total, spectacular failures (in policy but also as a human being).

So while I think violence is not the right answer to the "Nazi threat" today, I can envisage a future where it is without much difficulty. Given that it is basically totally legal (in the US at least) for Nazis to organise and wander around public with more or less zero repercussions, it should not be forgotten that all the anti-fascist punchers can and almost certainly will be locked up (even a half-assed effort by the authorities should do this), while the number of Nazis can grow because there are (for now) basically zero mechanisms to forcibly check the spread of their ideology.

It is not difficult to envisage a world where, for a long period of time, mobs of Nazis wander the streets calling for the extermination of brown people, with things eventually going out of control, resulting in them beating them up or (say) running them over in their cars, all while the machinery of government flails around uselessly trying to decide what to do. Like a Kristallnacht 2.0 situation where a bunch of Nazis that think they're clever try to perform non-violent action by blockading or damaging businesses owned by people of whatever ethnicities they're sad about.

So I'm saying, at some point I would find it hard to be critical of those using violence to stop Nazis from growing their evil movement and hurting more and more people. "First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know?

General comments:

Without having spoken to any Nazi punchers, I think the argument for punching Nazis is that it IS self defence, and the defence of others, in the face of a disgusting ideology that literally wants people dead based on nothing more than some random genetic factors.

It's easy to think Nazis are just further along on some linear scale of badness, like a little bit above general purpose murderers and people that torture animals or something. (For what it's worth I honestly find the threats of Islamic terrorists and North Korea completely banal by comparison.) But that is not the case; it is more like some exponential curve of badness. When thinking about people that want to punch Nazis, I think it's important (or at least, interesting) to remember that there are people alive today that were in Nazi death camps, who faced down literal Nazi soldiers on battlefields, who have family members that are no longer alive today because of Nazis.

These aren't random abstract expressions of rage at a couple of skinhead rednecks; they're deeply entrenched feelings of terror from people who were at risk of genocide or extermination and, rightfully, have never forgotten about it. Few things make me sympathetic about the right to bear arms but avoiding genocide due to the apathy of governments is one of them.

While I think punching Nazis is not the right response right now, I have to wonder what would have happened in 1930s if people had spent a bit more time punching Nazis, instead of being strong-armed by brownshirts while the state looked on futilely (although admittedly probably not without a lot of frustration) doing nothing.

The good news though is that - in my ever-humble opinion - I think the circumstances are significantly, like orders-of-magnitude, different. I do not believe there are enough Nazis to develop critical mass. I do not think anti-fascists punching Nazis will increase (or decrease) their numbers. I do not think American society will tolerate the cancer of Nazis, and believe they will be suppressed and rejected by the normal machinations of society, accelerated through non-violent methodologies (e.g., Sleeping Giants and public humiliation), although sadly not without more deaths as some of the more fringe crazy elements go out of control.
You might think you're doing a "good" when you punch hitler 2.0 and in a world where 100% of the population agrees you're punching hitler 2.0 maybe you are. What if only 90% of the population agrees with you? 60%? 30%?

Internet toughguy posturing aside surely you're intelligent enough to see how stupid that sort of idea is?
hehe, it sounds like we are now just discussing the vulnerabilities of democracy here :D

What IF x% of people do agree punching Nazis is OK, and we pass a law that allows it!?! Would that be a terrible law? (I suspect you think this already and that is not what you are saying but not clear to me what your point is here. This is what I mean by a vulnerability of democracy - just because a majority of people think we should be allowed to have slaves, or people from Tasmania should only get paid 40%, or whatever, doesn't mean the laws of the country should reflect that.

Even if 100% of the population does agree that punching the Nazi was a good idea, there is a strong argument that it still should be illegal and the Nazi puncher should be dealt with accordingly. (I think the anti-fascist punchers should be tried for assault, but several of them already have been so the system seems to be working reasonably well, if a bit slow and anemic). In the (unlikely) event we get to the point where Nazi groups are more organised and become an actual threat I would expect, and demand, the state take steps to limit it, regardless of the percentage of citizens that think it's a good idea.

Sadly, due to the totally inconvenient nature of the space-time continuum, it is hard to A/B test reality, so we'll never know what the best course of action is, or would have been, or was last century the first time these Nazi f**** reared their stupid peanut heads. I would like to believe that our society has evolved to be strong enough to deal with such threats organically, and this brief spurt of activity will soon wither and die as pathetically and ignominiously as it deserves, as they all go back into their basements to lick their wounds with the realisation that their beliefs simply have no place in this era of humanity.
02:33am 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3181 posts
SIEGEL: What clearly distinguishes a Robert E. Lee statue from a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue since all those men owned slaves?

SOMIN: There are two big distinctions. One, nobody honors George Washington precisely for the fact that he owned slaves, whereas the Confederate leaders, when they're honored, are honored almost entirely for their service to the Confederacy, which was created for a purpose of perpetuating and extending slavery.

Second, while I think it's very much correct to criticize the Founding Fathers for owning slaves, those of them who did, they also had great achievements in other areas which do legitimately deserve honor. By contrast, the Confederate leaders - very few of them would be remembered today but for what they did in the Civil War to protect slavery.

SIEGEL: One of the arguments that's heard is that a statue of Robert E. Lee reminds us of a dark chapter in our past, that it's part of our history. Removing it is akin to erasing history. Does that argument hold any water for you?

SOMIN: I don't think so. We should definitely remember this period in our history. And in fact, nobody proposes that we forget. But there's a big difference between remembering history and honoring people who fought in defense of slavery. And what these statues do is they honor these people. They don't simply commemorate them. If the goal was just simply to remember what happened, that could be done with museums, or that could be done with more appropriate public monuments, ones that actually acknowledge the evil of slavery.

SIEGEL: Now, I asked you about two slave-owning Founding Fathers, Washington and Jefferson. But there are people in more ambiguous situations. Woodrow Wilson was a 20th-century president, a segregationist - on the other hand, led the country through World War I, proposed joining the League of Nations, won a Nobel Prize. Should his name be taken off a school at Princeton or the Center for Scholars in Washington D.C.?

SOMIN: I think this is a tougher case than a Confederate leader is. To my mind, I have no problem with removing his name. But I can see people on the other side of the debate who say his segregationism, his violations of civil liberties and his poor performance in forging peace after World War I - that these are outweighed by what they consider to be his achievements in other areas. It's an arguable issue, and reasonable people can differ. On the other hand, with the Confederate leaders, their legacy is much more one-sided. It consists almost entirely of their war in defense of slavery.

SIEGEL: Is it perilous, though, to judge historical figures by the moral and ethical standards of the present time?

SOMIN: In some ways, it is. But we don't have to do that in this case. There were plenty of people who in 1861 realized that slavery was wrong and that seceding for the purpose of protecting it was wrong. They included not only many people in the North but also many white Southerners. A large number of Army officers from the state where I live in, Virginia, actually chose to fight for the Union rather than support the Confederacy as Robert E. Lee did.

SIEGEL: There's another kind of monument certainly throughout the South that is not for a general or for a Confederate leader but for a Confederate soldier, just as there were doughboy monuments after the first world war, commemorating the locals who had died - different category for that kind of monument?

SOMIN: I think so. I think it's possible to commemorate people who died in a war without necessarily justifying their cause. For example, in Germany, there are cemeteries for German soldiers who died in World War I and World War II that commemorate the deaths without, at least at this point, honoring the causes that Germany fought for in those wars. So similarly, I think cemeteries and similar monuments whose main purpose is to commemorate the dead are very different from statues that honor the people that they depict and justify their cause.
08:25am 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3183 posts
Trogs centrist paradise be like:





09:23am 10/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2747 posts
While I think punching Nazis is not the right response right now, I have to wonder what would have happened in 1930s if people had spent a bit more time punching Nazis, instead of being strong-armed by brownshirts while the state looked on futilely (although admittedly probably not without a lot of frustration) doing nothing.


Trog this literally happened, a bunch of red shirts would turn up an punch on. It resulted in an expanded police state, which helped the nazis, you can go and read about it. Nazis would goad people into fighting and then use this to justify the expansion of police powers to disperse crowds.

When thinking about people that want to punch Nazis, I think it's important (or at least, interesting) to remember that there are people alive today that were in Nazi death camps, who faced down literal Nazi soldiers on battlefields, who have family members that are no longer alive today because of Nazis.

These aren't random abstract expressions of rage at a couple of skinhead rednecks; they're deeply entrenched feelings of terror from people who were at risk of genocide or extermination and, rightfully, have never forgotten about it. Few things make me sympathetic about the right to bear arms but avoiding genocide due to the apathy of governments is one of them.


As for this. there are people who did that its true. They are not *repeat* not the people advocating for punching nazis. You can find jews who advocate for the rights of nazis to peacefully organise and march.

The giant bright burning golden line is violence. You have categorically not acted in self defence if you respond with violence to speech period. And this idea that you can, is a profoundly dangerous one.

The people talking about punching nazis are a d***less parade of internet tough guys, who'd s*** their pants in an actual physical fight.

There is no danger *at all* of Nazis holding sway in the US now or in the future.
10:21am 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3184 posts
There is no danger *at all* of Nazis holding sway in the US now or in the future.
lol
11:16am 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3185 posts
You have categorically not acted in self defence if you respond with violence to speech period.


Unless, of course, that speech is to do with terrorism. Or national security threats. Or illegal immigrants mulims refugees entering the country 'illegally'. Or aggression against the state. Or, you know, if it's self defence because it indirectly threatens the sovereignty of the nation because of faraway geopolitical instability. And that's why we need a strong military ofc.
11:35am 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3186 posts
In case you don't understand my point again PP, it's that you are only against violence to people who are messing with the 'current order', whereas state sanctioned violence is A-OK.
11:36am 10/09/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4051 posts
I like it how people think that hate groups have a right to "peacefully" protest because having a policy of violence and oppression against minorities is apparently free speech.

Don't forget the KKK is a terrorist group, the free speech conversation would go out the window if it were a group of muslims who were protesting while waving an ISIS flag.

If defending the supposed rights of nazis to protest is important to you then maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities. By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing.
11:40am 10/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2748 posts
In case you don't understand my point again PP


No I understand you point quite clearly. It's just wrong.

So in that Wikipedia did it touch on how neo-nazis shape policy (because they don't in anyway at all) or did it talk about how they exist. Because I'm talking about one and not the other. But you're too dumb to figure that our apparently.

There will never be a time when people don't hold morally reprehensible views. Nor is it particularly desirable to create a society where it is illegal to express those views.

Just go get your punch on Phooks. When a body guard smashes your face in the pavement, and you changed *nothing at all* IE nazis didn't have influence before and won't after, it will be all the more funny.
12:20pm 10/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12888 posts
By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing.


Hate Speech in America is protected by the 1st Amendment.

Its depressing that you want to shut other people up.
People like you are far more dangerous than Nazis.
Then there are people like Trog who believe Free Speech is founded on Righteousness and everyone should be really nice to each other.

"Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences."
Brendon O'Neil referred to this a couple of nights ago on Facebook.

Everyone who says this is really saying, "You can say what you like, but you might suffer for it". Which is another way of saying, "You can say what you like, but I wouldn't if I were you". Which is another way of saying, "Best not sayt, eh".

So let's get this "consequences" thing straight once and for all. If the consequence of our freedom of speech is more speech -- disagreement, argument, challenge, questioning -- that is absolutely fine. Those consequences are good, essential in fact. They're central to freedom of speech. But if the consequences are being No Platformed, or expelled from polite society, or sacked, or harassed so relentlessly that you stop saying what you wanted to say, or banned from Twitter, or arrested, or jailed, or shot, then that is unacceptable.

And these are the consequences that all the supposed liberals, clueless libertarians and radical Islamists who utter the words "Your free speech has consequences" are really talking about. By "consequences", they mean "punishment". They mean, "We'll teach you a lesson if you say that thing". They're making a threat. Be very worried when you hear people speak of "consequences" for what we think and say.



12:35pm 10/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3187 posts
how neo-nazis shape policy (because they don't in anyway at all) or did it talk about how they exist. Because I'm talking about one and not the other. 


So.. wh.. I don't.. ...... I'll refer you to Trogs post for that one.

"First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know?

This_thread.jpeg
03:50pm 10/09/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2140 posts

Just remember Phooks when dealing with newscorp readership, Nazis marching in the street, fine.

Calling someone a dog f***** is not allowed.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jun/07/chris-kenny-ill-be-remembered-as-the-journalist-called-a-dog-fker-who-stood-up-for-his-rights


04:19pm 10/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2749 posts
"First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know?


So then there should be no need to be wandering the streets looking for hitler 2.0 to punch on with should there?

But go save the world from the nazis phooks. We can all have a laugh about how they've had more influence over your face than political thought for the last 50 years.
05:19pm 10/09/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18442 posts
People should be free to display how much of a douche bag they are.

By forcing them to not express themselves by enacting laws preventing that, they will find covert methods to release that expression.

What would you rather, a overt Nazi that is easily identifiable as the douchebag they are and thus can avoid them and their toxic behaviour. Or forcing them to be covert in their nature, so you can't easily identify them and then be subjugated to their toxic s*** randomly when it comes out.

Think about the emotionally abusive relationship. The abusers are often indistinguishable from healthy people, people form relationships with them and slowly the abuser (most often not intentionally, the are just unhealthy, broken people) whittles away their self-esteem and over-time significant damage is done.
Consider if that person was overtly abusive, the relationship would likely not be formed and that person happily avoids years of emotional torment.

Forcing people to obfuscate their beliefs and abusing ways is essentially creating an environment for emotionally abusive people to thrive, via forcing them into covert styles of abuse.

So does censoring them still seem like such a great idea?
07:13pm 10/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39168 posts
Trogs centrist paradise be like:
I actually wrote a metaphor about slavery in my post but removed it at the last minute because I think it would just be a bit of a strawman that would confuse people. You seem to have been confused anyway :(

edit: wait is it centrist to believe in the laws of the land?

When I have some time I'm going to start working on a 3D version of the left/right/centre spectrum", so people who don't express extremist left or right positions don't have to uselessly be labelled centrist
07:22pm 10/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5531 posts

Weird how the American Nazi Party didn't get banned after WW2, especially after this went into law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954


07:29pm 10/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39169 posts
Then there are people like Trog who believe Free Speech is founded on Righteousness and everyone should be really nice to each other.
everyone /should/ be really nice to other. What the absolute worst segment of the free speechers believe is that their right to free speech means that they should, nay, must, wander around using it to be an obnoxious f*** to everyone all the time. Like they're being the living embodiment of the first amendment by exercising that right non-stop (when in fact they're just anti-social d***wads).

That is not why free speech laws exist. People that hide behind free speech laws purely to run around and be f***wits screaming 'free speech free speech' whenever anyone tells them to shut up aren't excellent demonstrations of what a great idea free speech is. It's a necessary weakness of the law - the law entitles them to do it.

But it's not a BENEFIT of free speech. It's the COST of free speech.

I am prepared to tolerate that cost because I think free speech is important. But I /do/ think people generally should be nice to each other and shouldn't generally take advantage of free speech laws simply because it allows them to be toxic. This does not seem to be a very controversial position to me.
Brendon O'Neil referred to this a couple of nights ago on Facebook.
That post (once you strip it of its quite excellent logical fallacies; it is a masterpiece of Trumpish that makes it very hard to lose - he's basically listed a series of responses that start with other people exercising their own right to free speech then slippery slope all the way down to being gunned down in the street - a truly impressive piece of dogwhistle writing!!) basically says "I should have free speech and everyone else's other freedoms should be curtailed to ensure I have that right".

I'll cherry pick the more practical parts of his post:

- Why do you think other citizens should not be able to exercise their free rights of association & not hang out with people whose speech they disagree with?
- Why do you think should other citizens be silenced and not allowed to communicate their views to people they disagree with (this is "harassment" apparently)?
- Why do you think businesses should have to keep people employed who spout off Nazi slogans? (this is a tricky one and I am not sure about this one, but if you are as freedom-loving as you have often claimed to be, I would imagine you think businesses should be able to do whatever they want)
- Why do you think free citizens should not have the right to ridicule people that try to hide behind 'free speech' laws to spout off ridiculous falsehoods? (presumably also "harassment")
- Why do you think Twitter should not be free to block the speech of whoever they want?

Finally, I would say the most interesting & ardent free speech supporter I know is of course Popehat & it is a tenet of his that free speech should have consequences. (Most of my thinking about free speech has been done from reading everything on the Popehat blog so I admit to being heavily biased in my thinking based on his conclusions.)
07:34pm 10/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39170 posts
By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing.
It has been confusing because the conversation has partially been about general free speech, US-specific free speech, and Australian free speech. It expressly does in the USA - that is what 'freedom' means. It is not 'freedom, but', but general freedom (outside of an extremely limited number of specific cases).

Australia does /not/ have free speech in the same way as America though - and we do have some hate speech laws.
08:50pm 10/09/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4052 posts
Well threats of violence and intimidation are illegal in both countries as far as I know and I know some people who like to advocate for terrorist organizations like the KKK like to claim that hate speech is somehow different to a threat but that I doubt the people who are the target of that hate speech feel the same way.

Imagine being Jewish and seeing people walk down the street wearing the symbol of an organization that literally tried to kill your entire race or being black and seeing people openly advocate for the KKK, an organization that has killed thousands of people for no other reason than the colour of their skin. How are those people supposed to feel anything other than intimidated?

Seriously though, is this thread just about American politics? Right now we have a Liberal PM trying to tell a private company how to run it's business in AGL and a deputy PM that may not even be constitutionally elected but all anyone here wants to talk about is the US.
10:57am 11/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39171 posts
Well threats of violence and intimidation are illegal in both countries as far as I know
Not really in the US; it has to be a clear threat of inciting immediate violence or something (I can't remember offhand but the limitations are narrow).
How are those people supposed to feel anything other than intimidated?
Yes, well, that is the price of freedom - it includes the freedom to be f***wits (hence my comments above that choosing to be a f***wit is something that people should strive not to do).
Seriously though, is this thread just about American politics? Right now we have a Liberal PM trying to tell a private company how to run it's business in AGL and a deputy PM that may not even be constitutionally elected but all anyone here wants to talk about is the US.
Fair point but we're not really talking about the US; just the concept of free speech in general. If you want to change the topic, just change the topic, don't keep talking about the old topic :D Let's laugh at the Liberals, that's always fun
05:45pm 11/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26031 posts
11:37pm 11/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7715 posts
racist nazi or ?

07:31am 12/09/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2141 posts
Let's laugh at the Liberals, that's always fun


Yes, lets.

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/8893144-16x9-large.png?v=2
09:30am 13/09/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9495 posts
Hate Speech in America is protected by the 1st Amendment.


It's important to remember that it is protected to the point that it becomes a suggestion. Speech is protected in the US if it is an idea or a point of view, but the moment it becomes a call-to-arms, a suggestion that people act in an illegal way that may cause harm to other, it ceases to be protected. For example, "I think we should lynch group X" would protected. "I am going to lynch group X" being the statement of intent of an illegal act or "I advise people to lynch group X" being an instruction to perform an illegal act is not protected.
12:17pm 13/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12889 posts
12:50pm 15/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5533 posts
This country is well on it's way to the s****** (if it isn't there already)
Attempts at forcing the ABC to be more right-wing, by trying to make it more 'fair and balanced' (it already is) and reduction in media ownership laws will ensure a stronger narrative of right leaning policy, something that is bad for everyone, besides the wealthy i suppose.
02:03pm 17/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2755 posts
those wily corporations. they'll getcha, they'll getcha everytime.

The crab people are coming vash. Better get ready to punch. You know to keep things 'fair and balanced'
05:15pm 17/09/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2142 posts
Are you talking about the corporations that pay f*** all tax and get a 30 mil handout?

Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me.
06:35pm 17/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7716 posts
Mein ABC
06:55pm 17/09/17 Permalink
Vash
218 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
Send Private Message
07:40pm 17/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39199 posts
06:35pm 22/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26045 posts
To be honest I reckon this citizenship thing is really dumb and they should just change the law. Interesting to see the contrast between how the Greens senators handled it compared to everyone else. It shows who has at least some moral integrity.

Bernardi recently criticised a fundraiser designed to raise funds for African schoolgirls for some dumb transphobic reason. They've now raised $275,000 compared to their original goal of just $900. You can donate to it here.
02:04pm 23/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39202 posts
Interesting to see the contrast between how the Greens senators handled it compared to everyone else. It shows who has at least some moral integrity.
Yep. It must be toasting their bagels that they gave them all this s*** and they demonstrated their class. Now the tables have turned their hypocrisy is astounding.

I don't mind them being required to renounce their citizenship to other nations but agree that if they can make a reasonable case that they didn't know about it, they should just be able to renounce it and continue.

Imagine that if you're an immigrant to the country though and you have to prove your own citizenship situation - you have to jump through ridiculous hoops so the government can make sure you are who you say you are, and that your status is clear. But somehow to get high office in the government, they don't have similar checks?!
05:55pm 23/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12899 posts
There are different situations that all add to the same problem.
Its another huge waste of Taxpayers money, YOU are paying for this show.
like the Gay survey = $114 million
the fence around Parliament = $118 million

lucky that Budget Emergency is over.
06:53pm 23/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39205 posts
holy s*** is that what that stupid f*****g fence costs

f*** these people
07:19pm 23/09/17 Permalink
taggs
6514 posts
those wily corporations. they'll getcha, they'll getcha everytime.
11:50pm 23/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26047 posts
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers. For a hundred years, there's been a conspiracy of plutocrats against ordinary people. Number one: In 1945 corporations paid 50 percent of federal taxes. Now they pay about 5 percent. Number two: In 1900 90 percent of Americans were self-employed; now it's about two percent. It's called consolidation. Strengthen governments and corporations, weaken individuals. With taxes, this can be done imperceptibly over time.The entire executive branch is hand-picked. Nineteen of the last twenty-three U.S. presidents have been members of the Trilateral Commission. The Trilateral Commission is financed by the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds.

Ever wonder why big car companies pay two percent tax while the guys on the assembly line pay forty? Corporations are so big you don't even know who you're working for. That's terror. Terror built into the system.

edit: on a more serious note, Trump just had a rally where he encouraged a group of racist people to boo a black man engaging in peaceful protest. Trump holds white supremacist rallies now.
06:28am 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7717 posts
Wow this is exactly what is happening here in Oz.

If you don't have your own home, it's your own fault you lazy, avocado chomping, commie bums!



#f***youigotmine

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 11:44:43 24/Sep/17
11:39am 24/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12900 posts
The War on Christians
A Coalition for Marriage meeting in Melbourne was last night stormed by gay-marriage protesters yelling "crucify the Christians" and waving a banner declaring: "Burn churches, not queers". Meanwhile, a Mormon church is vandalised with vote-yes grafitti.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKcZ0C7U8AIlYmL.jpg

Mormon Church defaced

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKaOxHpV4AAGnJY.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4912540/Coalition-Marriage-s-Melbourne-launch-lesbian-kiss.html

Its turning into a pogrom against Christians
STRAIGHT LIVES MATTER


12:11pm 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7718 posts
imagine the outrage if it said "burn mosques not queers".

skydaddy double standards once again
12:59pm 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7719 posts
lolollololol

01:11pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3203 posts
imagine the outrage if it said "burn mosques not queers".


It's almost as if the very idea of burning Christian Churches is absurd in comparison.

Maybe that's because they aren't some sort of 'under attack minority'.
02:55pm 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7720 posts
^ Yes, save the gay, brown, muslim whales, and f*** everyone else.
03:01pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2762 posts
yes burning mosques in Australia is a totally credible threat that wouldn't receive unequivocal and universal condemnation in 'comparison' to burning churches being unlikely.
03:04pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3205 posts
^ Yes, save the gay, brown, muslim whales, and f*** everyone else.


You're right, we should be focusing on the pride/rights of white, rich Christian men, particularly the white supremacist ones who get charged with rape - their suffering is unparalleled.
05:40pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3206 posts
You know, times are tough. I had to sell my second yacht to fund the Australian Christian Lobby this month.
05:42pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3209 posts
06:36pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3210 posts
06:36pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3211 posts
"Political Correctness is ruining this f*****g country"

"I can't believe these s***-stackers keep trying to harass us, can you believe they texted me??!?! I'm so offended."
06:43pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2764 posts
I can't believe it's not an argument.

So you know how a religion is a set of moral expectations typically backed by "laws of nature" expressed through a series of agreed meta-physical claims. That's not a race.

also is that the same Germany that has no minimum wage? That one who's ruling party is the christian democratic union.

Or some other germany?
07:02pm 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7721 posts
Only whitey can be racist

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 19:18:46 24/Sep/17
07:17pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3212 posts
PP as a white supremacist this honestly this may -really- surprise you, but there isn't really a hard-line biological definition of what a race/ethnicity actually is. Shocker.

So much so that, the only protections people have against discrimination for their religion is, you guessed it, the Racial Discrimination Act. Because religion can be seen as an 'ethnic origin'

Source: https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12091
07:18pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2766 posts
Oh so when you say

FYI thanks to the lobbying power of the Australian Christian Lobby


I should read that as a racial comment.

Ok hitler.

PS this

PP as a white supremacist this honestly


Doesn't get under my skin. it just proves how utterly pathetic you are.
07:20pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3214 posts
Only whitey can be racist


Kek. See you think that's witty, but perhaps you should literally learn the definition of racism and take that into the context of your statement.

The ideology underlying racist practices often includes the idea that humans can be subdivided into distinct groups that are different due to their social behavior and their innate capacities as well as the idea that they can be ranked as inferior or superior.


When you talk to minorities (you know, you can do that, really.) they usually label their antagonistic beliefs on majorities with historic privileges (i.e. white people) as 'prejudice', because they see racism as something that is systemic

But who cares about how minorities see the world, rly
07:26pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2768 posts
But who cares about how minorities see the world, rly


Are Muslims a minority? Seems like the second largest religion in the world which sits on trillions of barrels of oil can't really claim that status seriously. Seems like it is really really really useful to claim that status.

because then you can conflate racism with blasphemy. Which is exactly what happens. See every post you've made today in this thread phooks.
07:33pm 24/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7722 posts
what are your thoughts on humanism?
07:40pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2769 posts
what are your thoughts on humanism?


If you are asking me, I'm pretty big on it.
08:04pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3215 posts
Are Muslims a minority? Seems like the second largest religion in the world which sits on trillions of barrels of oil can't really claim that status


Muslims in Australia don't own oil, nor do muslims across the globe. Arab states own oil. Muslims in australia are a minority, maybe like a few percentage points?

what are your thoughts on humanism?


I'm really only familiar with it as an approach to psychology in which case it's quite old and largely uses clinical-based frameworks. Humanistic psychology came just after Freud and Skinner, and I have my concerns on its basic assumptions. For myself I've been more a fan of a form of stoicism lately, but have needed to tap into humanistic perspectives when dealing with rare situations, 'bad people do good things, good do bad' and what have you.

At a quick glance I'd broadly say humanism today is probably expressed best in the NFP sector and is a desperately needed for the bottom 20%-30% of the global population, but human development and public/private sector progress in general will probably move the rest of the world where it needs to go. Still, that doesn't mean the most disadvantaged of us needs to be left behind.
08:11pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2770 posts
Muslims in Australia don't own oil, nor do muslims across the globe. Arab states own oil. Muslims in australia are a minority, maybe like a few percentage points?


Ok so if we are talking just about Australian Muslims (many of whom are sunni which completely dominates the oil industry FYI), why is it in virtue of said percentage points, do their religious convictions become racist to criticise?

for example, why would you equivocate between burning a mosque and burning a church? Both seems morally wrong, and morally wrong to joke about in a political setting. Is it or is it not racist to say "burn churches not gays"?

Because if it is racist to say "burn mosques not gays" I don't see an important difference. Let me give you a leg up here I don't give a f*** about percentages. And I doubt you seriously do as well. For example the westboro baptist church *might* have 100 members, but every one has heard of them. A comfortable majority of Muslims would hold similar views about homosexuality. I haven't seen you discuss that once. Why?
08:19pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3216 posts
morally wrong to joke about in a political setting.


Not really. A joke is a joke. Advocating for violence is not a joke.

Me saying 'us PC lefties are gonna heabutt yall!" is very clearly a joke, specifically funny because the core of the movement is based on love and it plays on the insecurities of the rhetoric of the right - vote no because some guy headbutted some other guy! Actually headbutting a politician is a very stupid and violent thing to do, and definitely not a joke. Which is why I don't joke about headbutting Literally Hitler 2.0, because that would be an extreme reaction against a clearly extreme and immoral threat to humanity.

Is it or is it not racist to say "burn churches not gays"?


Depends on the context. The statement itself implies that gays are, in fact, the ones who are being burnt. By the churches. Which they have been through most of history. And the statement was made by lesbians who were smiling and kissing each other in front of Christians - something Christians, who have historically burnt gays, find peculiarly offensive.
But in a crazy scenario where militant gays burn down churches en masse, yes that's pretty bad.

A comfortable majority of Muslims would hold similar views about homosexuality. I haven't seen you discuss that once. Why?


So, I'm talking about how the Muslims are one of the many disadvantaged minorities in Australia, and you're talking about why I'm not lampooning them, specifically, because their beliefs, just like Christians, regarding gay marriage are wrong? Do you not see the irony here, you're upset that I'm not being politically correct because I'm not including Muslims.

Lol
08:38pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2771 posts
Not really. A joke is a joke. Advocating for violence is not a joke.


Is that sign a joke? What's the punch line? and would replacing churches with mosques still be a joke.

The statement itself implies that gays are, in fact, the ones who are being burnt. By the churches. Which they have been through most of history. And the statement was made by lesbians who were smiling and kissing each other in front of Christians - something Christians, who have historically burnt gays, find peculiarly offensive.


They don't find ISIS throwing gays from roof tops *today* offensive? They don't find the majority of homosexual refugees coming from majority Muslim nations offensive? When was the last time a homosexual person was burnt (as in set fire to to death) in Australia by Christians?

f*** and you complain about Abbott being stuck in the 50's. Least it's the 1950's and not the 1450's.
09:19pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3217 posts
I don't think they had the opportunity to attend the next door ISIS anti-gay convention.
09:22pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3218 posts
would replacing churches with mosques still be a joke.


Where are you getting this information from? What political party is advocating for this in Australia?
09:25pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2772 posts
Oh well that's fine then.

You know they weren't protesting the members of the inquisition who actually burnt gays right? Or is that a step of logic too far.

Where are you getting this information from? What political party is advocating for this in Australia?


Just answer the f*****g question.
09:27pm 24/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3219 posts
You know they weren't protesting the members of the inquisition who actually burnt gays right? Or is that a step of logic too far.


They're just protesting the institution whose laws and texts have been preserved as sacred since that time. Christian institutions who have not recognised, made amends nor apologised for actions against homosexuals over the ages, because they still consider their very existence morally evil.

replacing churches with mosques still be a joke


Alright. So the question is as I understand it: is state-enforced religious dogma funny? No. State and religion should be separate. Even then, I can't think of any recognised political party or seat in the whole country which represents constituents that want to replace churches with mosques.
09:45pm 24/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2773 posts
They're just protesting the institution whose laws and texts have been preserved as sacred since that time. And before then, even.


So why aren't they protesting the laws and texts of Muslims who are also preserved and held sacred and current marriage laws are perfectly consistent with. And in whose name indescribable atrocities are carried out contemporaneously and not historically?

So the question is as I understand it: is state-enforced religious dogma funny? No. State and religion should be separate.


So not the question then.

Just a quick addendum

every post you've made so far is demonstrating this point

because then you can conflate racism with blasphemy.


More and more concretely.
09:49pm 24/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26048 posts
06:37am 25/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12901 posts
somewhat similar to the recent GayFL fail, Sport is the place you go to get away from the stupid s***. Kapaernick is another Adam Goodes. Rich minority that claims the country that made him rich is Racist. Another Stan Grant.

Black Americans are killing Black Americans
why doesnt he 'take a knee' over that ?
NFL ratings are Way down, I wonder why ?

https://i.imgur.com/0QcYOvS.jpg


01:06pm 25/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39212 posts
Black Americans are killing Black Americans
why doesnt he 'take a knee' over that ?
it's cute to suggest that he's somehow not aware of or indifferent to black-on-black violence but of course that is no the case; he's donating a million dollars (while unemployed) to various charities to help fight poverty & the conditions that create & contribute to that violence. I think maybe he's just pissed off about the last few years of evidence that show cops kill more black people by a significant number. Something that amazingly is not evident in your graph (from the "weekly racist memes" facebook group I guess?)

people can care about multiple things, sometimes even at the same time
NFL ratings are Way down, I wonder why ?
I suspect it has something to do with the fact that something like 200,000 people per MONTH are cutting the cable. ESPN are desperately trying to pretend this is not a problem.

I am amazed Trump would dare calling football boring. Even amongst the most fanatic of his base supporters I can't imagine that comment would resonate very well (although no doubt on Twitter & elsewhere the Russian hordes have amplified the message that football is now, indeed, boring.
07:49pm 25/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39213 posts
Much more interesting: Great read from NYTimes on how drug decriminalisation & treating it as a sickness instead of a crime is working out in Portugal
07:59pm 25/09/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
842 posts
It could work here.. we have some welfare hacks who could exploit it.
09:37pm 25/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26049 posts
You're amazingly dumb.
10:41pm 25/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12902 posts
That imbecile Turnbull has another plan for the Yes, Minister Gas Crisis that has now worsened.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gas-crisis-three-times-bigger-than-thought-turnbull-says-20170925-gyo418.html

Hes going to write a stern letter to the Gas Bosses

46 % in the polls
Turnbulls head is as empty as a eunuch's underpants.



10:54pm 25/09/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21369 posts
get classed as sick, collect free stuff while sitting on arse at home in public housing.


just curious, is that what you think happens when someone gets diagnosed with an illness? just chill out collecting free s***?
12:55pm 26/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7723 posts
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/09/labor-goes-open-borders/

to be fair, what else is left for the fake neoliberal left than to spruik globalization, immigration, gay marriage, …?

they cannot even talk about traditional left ideas (economic inequality, labour exploitation, workers rights, nationalization of public services …) because they are true neoliberals who are in pockets of the rich. To create appearance of democracy and political choice they have to somehow differentiate themselves from right wing neoliberals that share their economic policies.
There are very few differences left between right and left mainstream politics these day so they have to pursue extremes on those few unimportant issues.



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 08:44:45 27/Sep/17
08:39am 27/09/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10646 posts
Kapernick is 3 years ago news.

American gun deaths are a f*****g joke. Police, civilian, massacre ... doesn't matter. America's attachment to armaments is ridiculous. Totally valid when they were a developing nation and wild frontier. You know 250 years ago!

They will never get it, they voted in Trump ... They are not smart people, there are lots of smart people in America, even if they had more smart people than Australia there would be another 300 million ...

06:51pm 27/09/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9504 posts
American gun deaths are a f*****g joke. Police, civilian, massacre ... doesn't matter. America's attachment to armaments is ridiculous. Totally valid when they were a developing nation and wild frontier. You know 250 years ago!

People like to leave out the references to the right to bear arms serving the purpose of allowing well-regulated militias. ie,
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


The whole idea of a well-regulated militia in 21st century America, or any country for that matter, is utterly absurd. It might have made sense in WW2 Russia where the first person was given a gun, and the second person given only a clip, and was told "when he dies, take his gun". It makes utterly no sense when you have municipal, state and federal police forces, and individually managed military units. The whole point of that law was that so that when the guy from Charlie Company goes home and takes his military standard equipment home and stores it in his home, safely, he can't be charged - nor can anyone from the government order him to surrender his arms, knowing that the mission that guy might be sent on tomorrow might be to re-take a corrupt courthouse. It was never intended so that he can stop Jimmy Methhead robbing the local 7-Eleven.
10:03am 28/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2778 posts
People like to leave out the references to the right to bear arms serving the purpose of allowing well-regulated militias.


This is subject to considerable controversy. It seems to me that that you wouldn't include a mention of militia unless you were tying it to use of said firearms.

But there is another school of thought, which has a reasonable well argued basis. It states the subordinate clause
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,


Should be read as the right will allow the people to form a militia in a time of need. IE it is not tied to a standing militia, and is an individual right.

Scalia's speech in the Heller case is a fairly exhaustive treatment you can find it here.

It is probably worth noting that the collectivist school of thought held sway for the vast majority of US history.

I agree that it could be modified to be significantly improved, I can't see a useful purpose for high capacity military weapons in the hands of general civilians. But Pyscho seems like a reasonable dude and I'm pretty sure he disagrees.

With that said, the fitness for purpose for the current age is a question for the people. The constitution can be changed, if you can't get it changed its probably telling you something.
12:01pm 28/09/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21370 posts
after talking to many American's over the last couple of years through the mobile games i play i have come to the conclusion that trying to change American gun laws is a lost cause, it is f*****g ingrained from birth that guns are a regular thing and anyone who thinks other wise is a 'pussy liberal' or whatever. they are not all rednecks most of them are regaular people but holy s*** get them started on guns, they start posting pics of there collections, start discussing what guns they want, upgrades etc. buying their kids guns is a common thing.

it is completely insane and i just can't see how it can ever be changed, it is worse than religion.
12:44pm 28/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2779 posts
it's cute to suggest that he's somehow not aware of or indifferent to black-on-black violence but of course that is no the case; he's donating a million dollars (while unemployed) to various charities to help fight poverty & the conditions that create & contribute to that violence.


Its cute you use the word "charity" and not "political activists".
02:35pm 28/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5539 posts

Australian Conservatives leader Cory Bernardi has defended an anti same-sex marriage robocall campaign as normal political practice, but maintains last weekend’s Yes campaign text message was “invasive”.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/same-sex-marriage-cory-bernardi-says-robocalls-ok-yes-texts-invasive/news-story/e31361985bbf973f0afd456d43ec46e3

Heh
03:50pm 28/09/17 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19143 posts
a robocall is worse imo.
04:17pm 28/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26052 posts
(although no doubt on Twitter & elsewhere the Russian hordes have amplified the message that football is now, indeed, boring.
Please close your brackets.

Also yep -

https://i.imgur.com/5xqJOEl.png

edit: actually it appears that twitter was run by standard alt right trolls.
05:33pm 28/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39216 posts
Conservative politician is massive clueless hypocrite, news at 11. How long before the photos of him dressed as a woman getting gay married emerge?!
05:42pm 28/09/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40811 posts
who is more outraged about Macklemore doing his nice gay song at the footy gf, cory or tone, or are they EQUALLY OUTRAGED!?

hahaha, i cant even fathom how their brain works.
07:22pm 28/09/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21371 posts
Australian Conservatives leader Cory Bernardi has defended an anti same-sex marriage robocall campaign as normal political practice, but maintains last weekend’s Yes campaign text message was “invasive”.


How?
07:45pm 28/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2780 posts
by being hypocritical more than likely.
07:51pm 28/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39218 posts
edit: actually it appears that twitter was run by standard alt right trolls.
I think alt right trolls is now becoming synonymous with "Russians" these days

beware the Russian spies lurking everywhere! it's just like the Cold War only far more f*****g annoying!
08:31pm 28/09/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39219 posts
who is more outraged about Macklemore doing his nice gay song at the footy gf, cory or tone, or are they EQUALLY OUTRAGED!?

hahaha, i cant even fathom how their brain works.
haha and this clown. Not sure I can bring myself to watch NRL in support though.
08:38pm 28/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2781 posts
Remember that time Macklemore dressed as a nazi propaganda jew?
08:51pm 28/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5540 posts
Remember that time Macklemore dressed as a nazi propaganda jew?


And the relevance of that is...?
10:08pm 28/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26053 posts
It's only okay to dress as a nazi if you're marching in the street calling for the death of any one who isn't straight and white.
07:03am 29/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2782 posts
Oh good so you guys are exactly as unprincipled as I knew you were.

Singer selected for one of the largest stages in sport for his 'inclusiveness" has record of anti-Semitism and it doesn't bother you because he's on message.

Look forward to see you gettin y0 punch on vash.

Oh those nazi's they have to be stopped. But left-wingers get a bit funny about jews don't they.
09:18am 29/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5541 posts

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/dutton-nrl-creating-precedent-for-social-issues-with-macklemore-song/news-story/5d86ec70c7a5ae59f90350af9d845540

I am into free speech ... presumably two songs should be played, one for gay marriage and one against gay marriage, Mr Dutton said.


So apparently free speech is being threatened because a gay anthem is to be sung. This lot are a laugh.
10:17am 29/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2783 posts
literally saying the opposite.

You really really really need to learn to read.
10:35am 29/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5542 posts
Muh free speech is touted constantly by conservatives when things happen in society they don't like. Such as this case.
They should be giddy that such a thing is happening, it's free speech after all.

If conservatives want to exercise their free speech, organise an anti gay marriage anthem and stop complaining.
10:54am 29/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2784 posts
I am into free speech ... presumably two songs should be played, one for gay marriage and one against gay marriage, Mr Dutton said.


Sounding a lot like mr Dutton there vash.
11:24am 29/09/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26054 posts
Never heard of Macklemore or this song which I'm sure is utterly terrible. Seems to be making a bunch of homophobes upset though which is always a good thing. Too bad he's a complete nutter I suppose.
12:06pm 29/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2785 posts
So let me get this straight. complete nutter is anti-semitic and shouldn't be deplatformed, a tactic which you support, because

Seems to be making a bunch of homophobes upset though which is always a good thing.


But "Nazis" whose striking feature is anti-semitism should be punched and outlawed.

In the ball park there am I champ?

Thanks for that. Listening to your

Guys to day the president of America of the USA did (something fpot feels very strongly about)

Will be all the more enjoyable.
12:15pm 29/09/17 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1672 posts
we really need to double down on our pre conceived notions
02:15pm 29/09/17 Permalink
taggs
6517 posts
Says the guy who claimed pirating was borrowing then when called out doubled down.
02:22pm 29/09/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12906 posts
I'll be takin' a knee during the Gay Anthem because Straight Lives Matter.

http://www.vladtv.com/images/size_fs/video-232006.jpg

05:46pm 29/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2786 posts
Waleed Aly is a dribbling idiot.

You can tell because he is a "counter-terrorism expert" who is confused about the motivations of boko-haram. This is something which is news to boko-haram.

But moreover the host of a show that nightly politicizes everything complaining about total politcs is an irony supernova
08:08am 30/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7726 posts
He's not an idiot, he's just influenced by Mohammed's cult - something he was born into... and difficult to leave without consequences in one form or another.

I hope one day he and his loopy wife walk away from Mohammedism. I'd be interested in what he has to say when his mind in unencumbered by "religion"
09:19am 30/09/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3222 posts
heheheheh mohammedism.

See now that's perhaps what I dislike most about the anti-PC, r/imgoingtohellforthis and white pride crowd. Racism, ableism, prejudice etc is -not funny-. Dark humour and comedy shows like that need to be self aware, at the very least
09:27am 30/09/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40815 posts
09:30am 30/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2788 posts
The alternative to being an idiot and being "confused" about the motivations of Boko-Haram isn't pleasant slaps.

He may have a solid IQ. But he is totally lost not only in mohammed praise, but worse and more importantly he is drowning in post-modernism. This is not something that affects Maajid Nawaz but it is something that affects Reza Aslan.

Go and look up Aly getting his ass roundly handed to him by hitchens on Q&A. He uses text book po-mo arguments (there is no message of a text its all symbols and people fill them in experientially #pukatronics that literally commits you to saying there is nothing inherently violent about saying smite the necks of the infidels). There is nothing intelligent about trucking out standard deleuze/foucault/marcuse, thats just an undergrad arts degree reading list.

The sooner po-mo is stamped out the sooner we can all get on with our lives.
09:35am 30/09/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7728 posts
I think he is very smart. He's a paid celebrity ~ his regular lefty song and dance act keeps him in a job on the project.

Kinda like how Andrew Bolt gives all the righty's something to jizz over.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 09:42:56 30/Sep/17
09:40am 30/09/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2789 posts
Nothing you're saying is casting him in a more positive light.
09:54am 30/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5544 posts
I fail to see how his religious preferences has anything to do with the article i linked. This is the kind of stuff you see on The Australian comments whenever Waleed is mentioned.
10:03am 30/09/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13733 posts
Vash it seems you've forgotten you invited responses on not only the article but the person himself when you allotted just as many characters for the latter as you did the former :)
11:06am 30/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5545 posts
This is a political thread is it not? He's a lecturer in politics at Monash, and his articles on politics are often on point, as i said. Let's attack his religious beliefs instead of the points he makes in his articles.
11:25am 30/09/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13734 posts
What I'm getting at is that you (perhaps unintentionally) invited criticism of him in general by the addition of "Waleed often on point.". The context you're now framing that in was not apparent in the original post.

I happen to agree it'd be useful to respond to the article itself, but I was just surprised you seemed annoyed when people seemingly took your bait so to speak.
11:51am 30/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5546 posts
Wasn't intended as bait. I don't agree with his religious views, and they don't detract from points he makes in his articles.
11:58am 30/09/17 Permalink
Vash
5547 posts
"Such poor leadership ability by the Mayor of San Juan, and others in Puerto Rico, who are not able to get their workers to help. They want everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort." The President tweeted from his private golf club.
https://i.imgur.com/flufVzw.jpg

The mayor of San Juan who was recently attacked for allegedly wanting everything done for her.
11:31am 01/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2791 posts
I happen to agree it'd be useful to respond to the article itself

Ahem.
but moreover the host of a show that nightly politicizes everything complaining about total politcs is an irony supernova


But if you'd like it to be more specific.

This is Waleed's thesis


But that's the nature of total politics. It aims to polarise, then rails against those who dare oppose it. And in this process of making political heat from small moments, it obscures the biggest political questions there are.


putting aside for one second that is the basis of his career, he then goes on to say

But if taking the knee is meant to convey anything, it is precisely that the continued unaccountable violence of the state against black Americans – and now the President's flirtations with white supremacists – mean many athletes cannot feel the nation really does encompass them, so much as it dominates them.


It is literally impossible to take someone who says s*** like that seriously. There is not a single factually correct assertion in that passage. not one.

for example, by failing to bring up the fact Macklemore has literally dressed as an anti-semitic caricature of a jew and roundly condemn it, Waleed is as close to flirting with anti-semitism as trump has ever been to flirting with white supremacy.

Which leaves, if he is in fact intelligent, one remaining explanation.

Its andrew bolt style red meat for lefties. Based on the fact Vash posted it, well that's not insignificant now is it?
02:34pm 01/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5548 posts
Just because you feel its a factually incorrect statement doesn't make it so, PP.

Continued unaccountable violence of the state against black Americans - Fact, its happening.
and now the President's flirtations with white supremacists - Yup, that happened.
02:41pm 01/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2792 posts
neither of those things is happening Vash and thank you for demonstrating my point.
02:44pm 01/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5549 posts
Cute. Surely there's no reason the BLM movement was started.
02:52pm 01/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2794 posts
red meat vash, tasty tasty red meat.
03:18pm 01/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12909 posts
MiLo is coming...

Now Milos Yiannopoulos — one of the world’s most controversial men, dubbed a ‘right wing troll’ and even an ‘internet supervillain’ — is coming to Australia.

However, his disdain for minorities, opposition to gay rights and transgender issues — despite identifying as a homosexual — and criticism of the Black Lives Matter movement is bound to see him met with some hostility.

Thats Vash Triggered

http://www.news.com.au/national/internet-supervillain-milo-yiannopoulos-touring-australia/news-story/2cf7d8ce306820a9fa24ffc5dda7d6b7

A very Gay Conservative.

04:09pm 01/10/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40816 posts
milo just needs less attention, and then he'd go away for ever.
04:49pm 01/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5551 posts

Conservative radio big fans of free speech.
Let's censor a part of the live NRL broadcast.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/2gb-3aw-didnt-play-macklemore-song-during-nrl-broadcast-20171002-gysmew.html


02:44pm 02/10/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3312 posts
The problem is we seem to have forgotten that a lot of these "political pundits / commentators" are just entertainers at heart (one could even stretch to failed actors for many), or even just decrepit salespeople (like Alex Jones). They'll tow whatever line works with the particular demographic they are making money from. They don't actually have any real political insight, despite being able to piggyback on some relatable vibes or hot topics - which isn't really that special a talent, certainly not in the entertainment or sales world.
06:07pm 02/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
844 posts
08:56pm 03/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26061 posts
04:44pm 04/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4618 posts
lol at that /r/The_Donald pic

I got alt-right bingo - "antifa", "soros", "shillary"

is any one of those c*********s a real person and not trolling everyone else?
08:36pm 04/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39236 posts
they're probably real people, just on Moscow time
08:40pm 04/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12910 posts


01:16pm 05/10/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3318 posts

Arguments over free speech on campus are not left v right. As Reed College in Oregon shows, left v left clashes can be equally vitriolic: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21728688-reed-college-oregon-shows-left-v-left-clashes-can-be-equally-vitriolic-arguments

Assistant professor Lucia Martinez Valdivia, who describes herself as mixed-race and queer, asked protesters not to demonstrate during her lecture on Sappho last November. Ms Valdivia said she suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and doubted her ability to deliver the lecture in the face of their opposition. At first, demonstrators announced they would change tactics and sit quietly in the audience, wearing black. After her speech, a number of them berated her, bringing her to tears.


01:43am 07/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5552 posts
09:49am 07/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7731 posts
11:18pm 07/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26063 posts
Today the Vice President of the United States of America walked out of a football game because a black person dared to protest peacefully against murder. Meanwhile white supremacists marched again in Charlottesville.
07:06pm 09/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2806 posts
today fpot lubed up and rubbed one out to the Vice President of the United States of America walked out of a football game because a black person dared to protest peacefully against murder. Meanwhile white supremacists marched again in Charlottesville.
07:18pm 09/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
845 posts
Who here has dreams (nightmares) that Trump is coming to get them? Cumon, it's ok to talk it through. It's good to talk.
09:32pm 09/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3239 posts
09:41pm 09/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26064 posts
Who here has dreams (nightmares) that Trump is coming to get them? Cumon, it's ok to talk it through. It's good to talk.
Why would he be coming to get me?
09:51pm 09/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5556 posts
12:59pm 10/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3242 posts
MORE LEFTIST PROPAGANDER from another f***** bleeding heart leftie. I bet she doesn't even understand the economy or run her own businesses. Doesn't even talk about the REAL ISSUES like how we need LESS DEBT. Probably doesn't understand governments should STOP SPENDING and MAKE money. duh, gov't should be run like a business. Efficient. Private sector is best anyway. Business owners know best. Especially wealthy/succesfful ones. Like Trump. Wealthy people employ poor people, more money for wealthy people = more jobs = better economy. But poor people choose to be poor as well. Trump knows these things. Have you seen his IQ? Less $pending = less taxe$ = more money for wealthy = more jobs = more tax revenue Simple. Easy. Our tax system is BROKEN. Do you hear a dog whistle? Anyway taxes are evil. So are those lazy, job-stealing foreigners and gays. This message brought to you by Jesus' Unconditional Love

02:37pm 12/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3243 posts
Did you guys know quotas are evil and racist, we've already got equality, and women/blacks/immigrants are just biologically bad at things?

https://i.redd.it/n501hhrjr0rz.png
02:55pm 12/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26065 posts
https://s1.postimg.org/1g1ps68zfz/trumpnews.png

This is the bit where the President of the United States of America signals his intention to take any organisation that publishes or presents negative things about him off the air. Is it about time we revisit that early warning signs of fascism poster? Get your ticking pen ready.
05:16pm 12/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3247 posts
But but fpot it's not facism it's just his right to free speech

He's a STRAIGHT TALKER
06:23pm 12/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39242 posts
Did you guys know quotas are evil and racist, we've already got equality, and women/blacks/immigrants are just biologically bad at things?

https://i.redd.it/n501hhrjr0rz.png
Pretty good image that illustrates the problem well; also applies to women & other minorities.
08:04pm 12/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2808 posts
Pretty good image that illustrates the problem well; also applies to women & other minorities.


Not to Jews or Asians though right. They both have, as groups, on average higher annual wages, higher college entry scores, longevity than whites. But the system is definitely set up only to benefit white males.

Anyway this thread appears to descended into vash phooks and fpot swapping d*** picks.
10:02pm 12/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4626 posts
not sure what that floaty rectangle that the white guy is climbing onto is, but the message is clear
12:41am 13/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3251 posts
Not to Jews or Asians though right.


For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism"
01:59pm 13/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2809 posts
For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism"


Or alternatively a counter example to the thesis society is institutionally racist in favour of whites.

For those new to the comic its progressivespeak for "strawman narrative" and a severe case of "correlation is causationitis".
04:05pm 13/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26068 posts
For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism"
Go to r_thedonald or r_proudboys or any alt-right lair and you'll often see the what about jews and asians argument trotted out. It's really handy for them because it's a great dog whistle for how dark-skinned people are genetically and/or culturally inferior to others. It's also an effective alibi - how can I be a white supremacist if I am praising asians and jews? I am just searching for the truth and asking questions maaaannn.

The Harvey Weinstein thing is driving the alt-right crazy at the moment. On one hand a man is facing justice for sexually harassing a woman, but on the other it's a whataboutism tool that can be used to minimise Trump's actions. Must be really hard for them to decide which way to go with it.
05:36pm 13/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2811 posts
still ignoring me hey fpot.

Go to r_thedonald or r_proudboys


You know for a non-white supremacist you sure do know all the hang outs. Got to get that "outrage juice" flowing somehow huh. take a shower bro you stink of sex.

you'll often see the what about jews and asians argument trotted out.


Hey how about this.

You explain how whites aren't at the top of the pile of a white supremacist nation?

Guys today the president of America. of the united states. wife. donated dr seuss books to a public library.

I know right. total white supremacist move. The cat in the hat was mandatory reading for the Hitler youth.

My progressive d*** is way bigger than all yall. I'm offended by children's books.
05:43pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
846 posts
All races have s***** people, and we should stop being so tolerant of parasites.
06:15pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4627 posts
The Harvey Weinstein thing is driving the alt-right crazy at the moment. On one hand a man is facing justice for sexually harassing a woman, but on the other it's a whataboutism tool that can be used to minimise Trump's actions. Must be really hard for them to decide which way to go with it.

probably the second one, as it’s hard to imagine the alt reich types giving a rat’s arse about justice for women
06:47pm 13/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2812 posts
Funny fpot wants to frame a prominent life long democrat who is also a serial sexual predator as an issue of the alt-right.

funny indeed. It's not like feminism was a central theme of hillary's campaign or anything.

interesting word that "whataboutery" isn't it.
07:05pm 13/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12913 posts
Cities in America with the highest Black populations have the most Crime, Murders, Gun Violence, Single Mums, Men in Prison

But yeah its because Boss Man dun keepin' duh bruthers down

Michelle Obama = "I want to start by thanking Harvey Weinstein for organizing this amazing day. This is possible because of Harvey. He is a wonderful human being, a good friend and just a powerhouse. "
yeah... a powerhouse abuser of Women like bill clinton.

...and people wonder why the Democrat Party keeps going backwards
Hollywood Liberal Hypocrites
07:20pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5560 posts
Cities in America with the highest Black populations have the most Crime, Murders, Gun Violence, Single Mums, Men in Prison


Care to look at the history on the treatment of blacks in America? You might find the reason why that is.
07:34pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4628 posts
...and people wonder why the Democrat Party keeps going backwards Hollywood Liberal Hypocrites


you’re nearly there, you just need to establish that the Democrats knew about the sexual assaults
07:34pm 13/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12914 posts
well they knew about bill Clinton and his trips to Pedo Island with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

07:46pm 13/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39243 posts
It's about time politicians started to tell mass media to jam it. People who are too busy working to support the dole bludgers and rent a crowds don't watch the news as much as the dole bludgers and rent a crowds . Thus the news tugs on the heart string messages of the entitled so they go out and waste money on the dumb things that are advertised between whatever negative rubbish they can find.. then they it off with a smiling puppy.

The model is used world wide because people want to know the negatives, it's helps with their concept that the world is stuffed, and that their s***** life is a result of external influences. When in fact they make choices everyday that determine how s***** their life is going to be. No matter how much money we pump into educating children, there are still s***** parents passing on 'lower form' genetics and behaviours that will make it harder for them to break the 's***** cycle'. They are a 'breed' in some ways. We have "White Trash".. so i'm not saying it's a race thing. All races have s***** people, and all races should stop being so tolerant of these parasites and social f'ups.
s*** just got real. Perhaps you have some sort of final solution to propose?
08:55pm 13/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26070 posts
I was going to say something along these lines but Nmag's gimmick is to say the dumbest things possible, ignore the replies and post with one of his six alt accounts for a few days and then repeat the process.
09:08pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5561 posts
it's about time politicians started to tell mass media to jam it.


Another seduced by the Trump. You're smarter than that, aren't you, Nmag?

Back in the real world, people are affected by circumstances out of their control.
09:41pm 13/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2813 posts
but vash can see through the spin.

Care to look at the history on the treatment of blacks in America? You might find the reason why that is.


You see he gets it. because Chinese coming to California in the 1800's had the red carpet rolled out for them. They weren't abused to build the railroads at all.
09:50pm 13/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
847 posts
I propose not all people be allow to breed.
12:25pm 14/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5562 posts
I propose not all be allow to breed, and some be sterilised.


Sounds good. Let's start with you.
12:41pm 14/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26075 posts
8000 :P
03:18pm 14/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2815 posts
oh that is cheap ;)
04:29pm 14/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12916 posts
I propose not all be allow to breed, and some be sterilised.

Abortion and Contraception have already done a good job of that
Now we have to import people.

If it wasnt for those ppl that You think shouldnt breed we would need to import even more people. Maybe you like importing people who follow a pedo-friendly - wife beating, homo murdering, honor killing Religion ?

Me, Id rather poor white trash have kids and lots of them.
Because... We were here first.

04:35pm 14/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39248 posts
wow. someone wrote something dumber than nmag's post.
12:53am 15/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
848 posts
Encouraging failed communities
01:00am 15/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7737 posts

Me, Id rather poor white trash have kids and lots of them.
Because... We were here first.


ermm aren't you forgetting the aboriginal nations that have been here for 40,000 yrs?
01:11am 15/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12917 posts
its just as relevant an excuse Slaps.

People complain about Immigration but they dont ever complain about why its needed. We dont make enough people. 100 000 years and we achieved making less people.



02:33am 15/10/17 Permalink
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3411 posts
Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.
08:40am 15/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7739 posts
^ Yep.

The real point is the Government is lazy. They see turning on the immigration tap as an easy fix for the economy.

They just turn on tap and don't plan. Hence, why Sydney and Melbourne are so packed.

Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first?
10:23am 15/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5563 posts
Birthrates of Australians are down, that's partly why we need more immigration to maintain & grow the population as well as the economy.
People want to live in cities, and there has been incentives to get more people moving to regional areas, but you can't force them to.
10:41am 15/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7740 posts
Why is endless growth a priority?

Japanese population is in decline but their economy hasn't broken down - so why?
11:36am 15/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4630 posts
^ presumably so there'll be someone to pay for all the old farts' pensions
12:19pm 15/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26076 posts
Are you Tdog, Nmag?
12:42pm 15/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5564 posts
Why is endless growth a priority?


That's how you keep Capitalism functioning.

Japanese population is in decline but their economy hasn't broken down - so why?


The effects of an aging population have yet to fully hit them as yet. It will though.
12:44pm 15/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
849 posts
You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?
01:09pm 15/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5565 posts
You have a country. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?


The latter is already in effect. Not sure what your point is? We don't have an open border policy
02:13pm 15/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7741 posts

That's how you keep Capitalism functioning.


So by that logic, India should be an economic utopia
02:50pm 15/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39249 posts
Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.
It is /not/ just about "more people". It is about the /right/ people.

This is the most important thing the "f*** off we're full" dopes are missing (aside from the fact that we live in a staggeringly huge mostly empty country). If we want to develop industries faster, we need to bring in outside expertise. If we want to be competitive on a global scale, we need a way to bring those experts to us. (By the way, something like 70% of immigrants are skilled, with 40% of them being brought over by their company. )

You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?
I'm happy to hear that, because it means (as Vash notes) you should be perfectly content with the current state of affairs
Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first?
They kind of do - there is a regional immigration scheme which takes up about 7% of the total # of immigrants. I imagine it is a very delicate balancing act because smaller cities are more "fragile" and less able to deal with larger influxes. But I agree that spreading them out is a good idea. I actually think regional growth is one of the most important things we can be doing anyway & we should be trying to get actual Australians out there just as urgently.

Anyway. I'm pro strong border controls and immigration controls. But listening to Radio Moscow everywhere trying to make us deathly scared of all immigration all the time as a blanket policy is stupid. We need to bring outside expertise to grow our industries (particularly in high tech & engineering) because growing them ourselves will take too long. Sometimes we'll also need to bring in just regular people because we might open a new mine or something that requires a large number of people that can't be found on short notice. The government isn't just bringing in these people because they're deathly scared we're running out of citizens; they're doing it because they're vital liquidity in the engine that makes our country work. Finding the right balance is tough.
07:06pm 15/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3253 posts
F*** Off We're Full, Unless You're A Billionaire, Or Millionaire, Or A Skilled Worker, Or Contribute To Our Massive International Student, Trade And Tourism Industries, Or Cause Greater Cultural Links With Developing Nations That Will Prove Useful For Growing International Strategic Military And Geopolitical Relations, But Definitely DEFINITELY NOT The Enrichment Of Our Cultural Diversity In General Because That Is Straight-Up Liberal-Arts-F*****y S***, I Mean Did You See Our G20 Cultural Celebrations I Mean Wow We Are Just Exploding With Culture Already.

A.k.a. F*** Those Lazy Foreigners Taking Our Land & Jobs.

A.k.a. I wan't the Australian economy to be competitive, but I don't want to actually compete in it.
07:57pm 15/10/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2152 posts


So by that logic, India should be an economic utopia

Well GDP growth over the past 20 years in india is exponential.
09:52pm 15/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39253 posts
India is (IMO) the single most interesting economic market in the world today, not just because of recent growth but because the huge changes the current leadership is going for. Big shift to digital to get away from cash corruption, rebuilding their financial frameworks.. big stuff. A democratic population of a billion people being dragged out of the third world though a stronger (most western style, if you like) commercial framework is going to be a big deal.
09:20pm 16/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2816 posts
Noted Japanese american white supremacist touts the white supremacist line Asian Americans out perform whites in white supremacist america. Only reasonable conclusion is that he is a nazi white supremacist. This is based on the flawless logic that similar research has been quoted on pro trump web forums.

I think I'm getting the hang of this fpot. If you say white supremacist enough times, its like its true.
06:37pm 18/10/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21380 posts
anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now?
09:13am 19/10/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3324 posts

So Antifa learning how to defeat fascism by becoming fascists, it's too much! https://www.buzzfeed.com/katetalerico/from-gym-to-gun-range-heres-where-antifa-train?utm_term=.rhwKnmK8pj#.tq62qn2vYK

Also thought this was on topic for you trog: The Russian Troll Farm that Weaponised Facebook had American Boots on the Ground



Pretty interesting:

Though most Russian efforts unveiled thus far seem to have been aimed at weaponizing the far right, the existence of BlackMattersUS indicates Russian agents were equally motivated to infiltrate the far left in order to amplify partisan divides that would simultaneously energize Trump's base and disillusion Hillary's. Last month, the Daily Beast reported that the same group of Russian agents that organized pro-Trump rallies in the U.S. also impersonated a U.S.-based Muslim nonprofit organization for more than one year on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, in an attempt to fuel divisions. Evidence linking those efforts directly to the Kremlin is mounting; U.S. officials believe that Yevgeny Prigozhin, a Russian oligarch with close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, owns a company that is believed to provide financial support for the Internet Research Agency.


The Russians have aced this in the Ukraine and are no doubt doing it in the Baltics, all part of their new 'hybrid warfare' doctrine it seems. Amazing that they've managed to execute it in the US and are probably doing it in other Western countries. It was proven that Putin financed Le Pen in France.
09:37pm 20/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39263 posts
Also thought this was on topic for you trog: The Russian Troll Farm that Weaponised Facebook had American Boots on the Ground
nice one. I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D

It's amazing how much impact a few bucks can have when things are on a big of a knife's edge
09:56pm 20/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7743 posts
anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now?


Yep, it's pathetic. There's no such thing as 'clean coal plants'. Typical industry weasel wording.

However, there are the next gen super critical coal plants that are more efficient.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 22:04:24 20/Oct/17
10:02pm 20/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2817 posts
I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D


Well shucks trog I guess the haymaker collective in the fawing buzzfeed piece directly above it must be a bunch of russian funded plants. Nothing says responsible journalism like comparing that to a jewish boxing club in italy in 1938.

But wait, maybe buzzfeed are Russian plants. I mean they *refuse* to condemn antifa and there is now "mounting" evidence antifa are Russian plants. just to make that leap a little higher for you trump refuses to condemn Putin is the catch cry of the collusion crowd.

Russia maybe exploiting something, but there has to be something to exploit. there are real problems in western political thought at the moment.

Here is hero of the moment Macron.


That is true. You can anticipate and plan everything, but when you actually experience it, it's different. For me, my office isn't first and foremost a political or technical one. Rather, it is symbolic. I am a strong believer that modern political life must rediscover a sense for symbolism. We need to develop a kind of political heroism. I don't mean that I want to play the hero. But we need to be amenable once again to creating grand narratives. If you like, post-modernism was the worst thing that could have happened to our democracy. The idea that you have to deconstruct and destroy all grand narratives is not a good one. Since then, trust has evaporated in everything and everyone. I am sometimes surprised that it is the media that are the first ones to exhibit a lack of trust in grand narratives. They believe that destroying something is part of their journalistic purpose because something grand must inevitably contain an element of evil. Critique is necessary, but where does this hate for the so-called grand narrative come from?


My emphasis. I wonder if there is a parallel between "creating grand narratives" and "make amercia great again"?

Left wing politics has been close to completely consumed by post-modernism. Who'd have thought a valueless nihilistic political theory would be ripe for exploitation? probably anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Russia didn't force anyone to adopt such a s***ful philosophy, though they were probably rubbing their hands together watching it take hold.
10:58am 21/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12918 posts
03:22pm 21/10/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18474 posts
Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right?
04:13pm 21/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39266 posts
Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find.
07:09pm 21/10/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
851 posts
Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right?


Why don't they move to a nation (not city/suburb) with less white people and not deal with the competition whites introduce into their lives? Maybe some do?
08:01pm 21/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2818 posts
Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find.


Not according to vipers vanity fair article trog my sweet. *russian* trolls try to look as much like black lives matter as possible. I'm sure you read the article carefully.
08:43pm 21/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39267 posts
I don't know s*** about NZ politics but new leadership is making a lot of waves. My FB contacts (n=3) seem divided, but it seems like doing referendums is the in thing to do now: "Ms Ardern said on Friday — after her election victory was confirmed — that New Zealand would hold a referendum on whether to legalise recreational marijuana use within three years."
09:23pm 21/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39269 posts
Oh. Maybe she is a bit weird. From the article: "If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that's a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?"

I mean I can think of lots of things to describe it as. I find it hard to believe NZ has "hundreds of thousands" of homeless children that don't have enough to survive. Not clear from context what she is talking about.
09:30pm 21/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5567 posts
I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions.
09:48pm 21/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3254 posts
Ms Ardern said her Government wouldn't measure economic success just on things like GDP.

"The measures for us have to change. We need to make sure we are looking at people's ability to actually have a meaningful life, an enjoyable life, where their work is enough to survive and support their families."

The Government's first move would be to introduce its families package, followed by writing child poverty reduction targets into law.


Disgusting. What about the ECONOMY!? The DEBT!?$?!
11:13pm 21/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2819 posts
watch out phooks has been drinking and gotten triggered again.

I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions.


Dude you should be on the stage. There should be a prize for unintentional comedy. Capitalism has failed world wide because the global homeless total runs into the millions. gold.
09:12am 22/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7745 posts
I'd hit that new Kiwi PM
07:46pm 22/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2820 posts
Black man argues white liberals over use "white supremacist" and "racist" on CNN.

Just another white supremacist with internalized white supremacy preaching to the white supremacists on a white supremacist news outlet I say. and he is racist.
09:35pm 22/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4631 posts
breaking news - unions donate to the ALP
01:25pm 25/10/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2153 posts
It is hilarious how desperate Libs are to shut down getup. Meanwhile the IPA is fine.
08:00pm 25/10/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40838 posts
Well mr barnaby and others gave just been deemed inelligble for parliment.

Very interdesting
02:31pm 27/10/17 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19148 posts
bye bye baaahhnarby.
03:04pm 27/10/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4060 posts
I reckon the Libs knew this was coming, hence the stupid political stunts they pulled yesterday. He should have been stood down when the investigation started.

This could get messy if they retroactively go back and remove the ineligible votes from the Senate and House of Reps.
03:16pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2154 posts
Facedad gone too!
03:17pm 27/10/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21390 posts
awwww nooo brew
03:19pm 27/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2821 posts
I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44.
06:12pm 27/10/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4061 posts
So when are we going to see Barnaby arrested for defrauding the electorate? How much has he made while being ineligible for his position?

I'm sure he claims it was an innocent mistake but it's not like the government goes easy on people when they make innocent mistakes on their taxes and this is far more serious than that.
06:17pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2155 posts

I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44.

ABC had some quick points on why things panned out the way they did re the judgements per MP.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/citizenship-seven-rulings-winners-and-losers/9050222
06:39pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5568 posts
Roberts is gooooneski, best day in politics for ages.
07:06pm 27/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2822 posts
Cheers,

I think I'll sift through the judgment. Joyce's case is somewhat more complex than it seems. He should have renounced, it's a pretty inexcusable oversight. But when he came to Australia I'm not sure "Australian citizenship" was a thing or "New Zealand" citizenship for that matter.

Its a hang up of the British empire, but because NZ and Aus were domains of the crown everyone was just a British citizen. I expect this will all be dealt with in detail in the judgment, but I'm not sure he ever applied for citizenship to Australia (but he is a citizen).
07:14pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40840 posts
how the f*** did roberts get elected in the first place?
07:22pm 27/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2823 posts
proportional voting is a hell of a drug
07:25pm 27/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12920 posts
Dad will be back, hes going to run in the QLD State in Hansons Ipswich area.
currently Labor seats.

Matt Canavan is back
he is anti-Blackouts and very popular in QLD country.

07:49pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3326 posts
I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?

Great to see Roberts gone, what a joke he is.
07:56pm 27/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2824 posts
from the horses mouth for those interested.
08:03pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6608 posts
I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?


Correct. Which is what he has said he plans to do.
10:47pm 27/10/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4632 posts
good thing Waters and Ludlam were among those ruled against or they'd have really felt like a pair of tits for quitting
02:48am 28/10/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4062 posts
I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?
He already has renounced, I think they all did as soon as they found out.

Him winning isn't a foregone conclusion though, bi-elections are very different than a national affair. Most people usually vote for a party rather than specifically for their local candidate during a national election but for a bi-election the candidates are a lot more exposed. Joyce will probably still win though, having a party leader as the member for your area brings a lot of benefits, an independent holding the balance of power would bring just as much if not more but I'm not sure there is a worthy opponent now that Windsor has bowed out.

Labor could also end up throwing up a legal challenge or two.
11:32am 28/10/17 Permalink
anonymousxvi
Brisbane, Queensland
27 posts
Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problem
09:11pm 28/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3255 posts
Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problem
There is no reason to think the way society is structured is in any way a problem.

Really we just need to lower taxes and less government. Pretty simple.

Also run government like a business.

Also less muslimsimmigrants.
11:20pm 28/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2825 posts
oh a link to a vox article that says society has to change. and a guardian article.

Phooks is triggered again.
12:00am 29/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3256 posts
lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point

I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey
12:30am 29/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12921 posts
If I was Equally-challenged I would do something about it myself, not rely on Government to help me because:
The NBN
The Gas Crisis
The Electricity Grid
Indian made Trains that wont fit on QLD tracks
Desal Plants
any Policy that Malcolm Turnbull has touched
Ceiling Bats
Gonski
$50 billion Subs that are Diesal but require Nuclear Power so they wont work.
Murray River Water disaster
..and you want Government to make you wealthy ?

maybe you should try voting for the other guy ?
One Nation Tsunami coming

lead us to The Promised Land Mum and Dad

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3c0e93d6b69c261f0d4e22e0be6d04b4
12:48am 29/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3257 posts
01:04am 29/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5569 posts
These officials must dread every questioning by One Nation senators. My god they are so dumb.
02:15am 29/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2826 posts
lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point


Is that self referential? Because you've never done anything other than what you're doing. You quote some mindless liberal article and then scream some epitaph you think sum up anyone who doesn't vote green left.

I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey


Maybe tell us why its a bad thing? OR the more interesting question, what lengths would you be willing to go to see everyone exactly equal? Because the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized.

But here is the thing phooks. I'd rather be a pragmatist than highfalutin "principled" hypocrite like you.

I doubt you actually have any principles you've actually thought about with any depth. You're position on every topic you mentioned can be neatly summed by regurgitating a guardian article on the topic. I've never seen you or fpot or vash offer an opinion that isn't the company line not one. infi's opinion on issues is less predictable than all three of you combined.

But enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered.

My god they are so dumb.


Yeah but you're dumber.
10:38am 29/10/17 Permalink
anonymousxvi
Brisbane, Queensland
28 posts
wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.
04:03pm 29/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3258 posts
enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered.
responding to the cheap bait
triggered

lol

the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized.


This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.

wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure


Would you mind explaining? I must assume this comes from some sort of conspiracy theory, or even a basic failing of economic understanding which is very forgivable. Monetary policy is pretty well academically documented and both neo-cons and neo-libs generally have decent economic modelling behind their policies and taxes/rates. What do you mean by 'root cause'? Currency itself? Fiat systems? If your problem is with things like the reserve bank (ala mentioned in pop-conspiracy theories), and you think the solution lies in things like cryptocurrency, I would encourage you to do research about the origins and development of currency itself. I think the economist(?) did a piece about how Bitcoin is fiat money. What is your alternative to the root cause?
05:28pm 29/10/17 Permalink
Zenmaster
Queensland
38 posts
[quote]wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.[/quote]


the new system/s is already there.


just like politics, it's a waiting game to see how the mob adapts


this is money - it's not rocket science. Look around


the lowest common denominator always wins out
05:29pm 29/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5570 posts
This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.


Yeah it shows in all his posts.
06:30pm 29/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12922 posts
So when are you guys heading across the ditch to New Venezuela ?

08:03pm 29/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2827 posts

This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.


Triggered again mate. F***en hell been drinken too?

I encourage you to think on it because you clearly haven't and I'm right. Perfect equality of outcome has been repeatedly proven to be a nightmare.

Venezuelans can all "equally" not afford to buy food now. Like the chinese cubans and russians before them.

But here is a real chesnut for you, you driveling moron.

Which are you really for?

Diversity or equality.

You can't have both. They are irreconcilable concepts. Diversity *requires* inequality in some dimensions.

Yeah it shows in all his posts.

Gee there is no show without dumb c*** is there. Here comes Vash. Independent thought is over rated you f*****g peasant.
09:04pm 29/10/17 Permalink
Vash
5571 posts
F***en hell
dumb c***
f*****g peasant


There it is. Triggered.
12:59am 30/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2828 posts
Type what you see vash.
06:55am 30/10/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7749 posts
^^ Lol

Vash 1
09:23am 30/10/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12923 posts
https://i.imgur.com/D2OIoKt.jpg


last edited by FaceMan at 13:39:02 30/Oct/17
01:37pm 30/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39280 posts
it's like looking into a mirror
08:41pm 30/10/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23808 posts
the stubble is a nice touch
08:49pm 30/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3259 posts
09:05pm 30/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2829 posts
What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.

To think that Russia stole the election you only need to believe.

$100,000 on facebook ads is more effective than $1.4b in advertising (a large amount of which was spent ... on facebook), and that Russia somehow convinced Clinton not to campaign in the three states that ended up mattering, and to adopt a toxic form of identity politics which had *multi-millionaire* pop stars talking about "privilege" to ordinary people. Oh and convinced Clinton to try to rig the DNC primaries. Oh and to Convince Clinton to use the Clinton foundation as a pay to play system for the past decade. Got hundreds of journalists to write those "hold your nose and vote Clinton" newspaper stories (including John Oliver). And engineered a countrywide appetite for electing an outsider on both sides of the political spectrum a year before polling day.

Those Russians sure got a lot of bang for their $100k in facebook ads.

What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign.

I might wash that down with some

I do encourage you to reflect on it.


stated unironically.
07:22am 31/10/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4064 posts
What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.
They did try to gain direct access to the electoral servers though.

IMO the whole Trump collusion thing is distracting from the fact that Russia are basically attacking America's democracy. Whether you think Trump knowingly colluded or not and I'm personally not convinced he did (some in his campaign may have but I don't really give much credit to Trump), the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all.
11:25am 31/10/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26080 posts
Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia. Why on earth would they clue him in on the plan? He's dumb and chances are he'd just f*** it up for them. Some of his underlings would know something though. They'll be exposed in time.
01:06pm 31/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3260 posts
"Punching people is Nazism, and the more people you punch, the Nazier you become."
01:44pm 31/10/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9523 posts
the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all.

Pft, every country does this all the time. It's nothing new. I'm seriously surprised how worked up and outraged people are getting over this. If they were *actually* hacking voting machines and changing results, then yeah, it would be a problem. But social influence over voting? Oh come on, every country has done this through propoganda for centuries.
02:52pm 31/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2830 posts
Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia.


Called it.

What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign.


The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled.
07:16pm 31/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3262 posts
https://i.redd.it/l95duhvhupzy.jpg

"I used to work at McDonald's making minimum wage. You know what that means when someone pays you minimum wage? You know what your boss was trying to say? "Hey if I could pay you less, I would, but it's against the law."

https://i.redd.it/jmcju96zg67z.jpg
09:37pm 31/10/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3264 posts
The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled.


A pro-russian Aussie nationalist? Glad to see Trumpism is spreading across the ocean
10:01pm 31/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39282 posts
How about this as an idea for minimum wage:

We remove the minimum wage for anyone under the age of (say) 22-25. It's free market all the way down. We leave the other employee protections in place (penalty rates, holiday time, rest time, etc) or maybe even bump them up a bit.

But, we put in a (higher) minimum wage for people above that age bracket.

The idea is basically trying to compromise between the needs of business and the reality that the competition that comes from capitalism and the increased business flexibility that will result having access to employing more people, and the fact that basically at some point we should be paying people what they need to survive and have a good life.

I've argued about this with my bro; he hates this idea because he thinks that if you're 18 and can do a good enough job as a fry cook, you should be paid the same as someone who is 21. I kinda get this.

My thought though was that if you're young you should be incentivised strongly to skill up beyond basic labour; I like the idea of trying to get our young people into university and/or trades to get skilled up. I think it will be harder to justify for them if they're earning a high minimum wage (as Australia has). I think the reality of the situation is unskilled labour jobs will be the first to go as soon as they can be automated out and it is important to try to get the "youth" used to this sooner rather than later. (I do think skilled labour jobs will be on the chopping block sooner than people think too.)

Businesses can focus on having a larger pool of lower paid employees to have more business flexibility. Any employees that stick around for long enough to become experts/managers/whatever and decide to make a career out of it can do so; presumably in many cases it will be more cost effective to have these employees even at a higher rate of pay than 2-3 noobs.

BUT, I think it's critical to acknowledge that we're going to end up with a part of the population that might be replaced by machines and their prospects might not be great. I think those that are working in these (dwindling) industries as a career need to be taken care of properly and not cast aside, so having a "bump" of minimum wage at some point seems like a reasonable compromise.

Thoughts?
10:07pm 31/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2831 posts
look at you go phooks.

Triggered again. I look forward to vash agreeing with you.

I do encourage you to reflect on it.


You're ... not ... capable of this are you.

10:11pm 31/10/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2832 posts
according to phooks though trog if a fry cook earns less than an orthopedic surgeon its oppression and you're a labour rapist if you disagree.

Am I doing it right phooks?
10:19pm 31/10/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23810 posts
Thoughts?


you just s*** on every long-term unemployed mature person. well done!
10:59pm 31/10/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39283 posts
Yeh, I guess I just don't think it's a better scenario to remove all minimum wage so those long-term unemployed mature people are battling it out for $5/hour jobs at McDonalds (before those jobs are replaced by machines anyway). If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids? There has to be a better way of getting these people back into the economy.

Businesses will just free market things down to the bottom until their competition invents a robot to replace them to get labour costs down to zero. Then what happens? We can either acknowledge that our next generations need to be brought up with a different set of skills (or at the very least, skill in educability) and start solving the problem now or just keep kicking the can down the road.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll give up on the dream of automation and then we don't need to worry about it. But I keep thinking about the truck drivers.
12:18am 01/11/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9524 posts
I think sometimes people over-estimate how far automation is going to go.

I'll give you an example on a small scale.

One of the tasks I've set for myself tonight is I need to pull 70 tubes of watercolour paint out of a set of 250. Specific ones. In a worst-case scenario, that's going to mean I need to pick up every single tube one by one, and go through the list and say "is this particular item in my list". That's the fully-manual, slowest version of how I could do it.

Now, luckily, I already automated part of my process to get this list to begin with: Instead of typing the descriptions and colours of every item I had, I scanned the UPC codes of every item, then wrote a tool to look up the item descriptions of those UPC codes. So I've got a list of UPC codes, and a flag whether or not that UPC code is in my list.

Now to complete puzzle you would think I would just scan the UPC code of each item I pick, and get a Y/N. Thing is, I haven't developed that part. And here's where I get to the crossover of whether something is as fully-automated as I would plan to make it, or just go half-way. Writing something to integrate a scanner to do that lookup is more effort than the way I'm probably going to tackle it: Pick each item, and manually key in the last 3 digits of each UPC code. If they get a match, do a full check.

That's the in-between solution. I don't need to fully automate this process, because the cost of developing and implementing that full level of automation is more than I'll save by doing the 50% implementation. In this case, I might as well just do some of the work manually. The cost-benefit of rolling out an automated process just isn't there for the yields. If it were being repeated constantly, sure. But that's an example of why automation isn't going to replace every single job - because it's not repetitive enough.

Automation will only replace jobs where the process is completely replicable, repetitive, and where the machine can do as good or a better job than a person cheaper. If it's cheaper to just use a monkey, companies will continue to pay monkeys.
10:35am 01/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23811 posts
If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids?


are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway.

Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.
11:04am 01/11/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9525 posts
Minimum wage is there to basically say "a person working full-time should be able to afford the mandatory expenses considered normal in current times.". That's why a minimum wage is necessary.

If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist.
11:50am 01/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21395 posts
Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.


this assumes that everyone can go on and get high wage jobs, which is simply not true for a multitude of reasons

you would know most of these reasons
03:19pm 01/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23812 posts
so instead make believe that we can force jobs to be high wage by passing a LAW (let's pass a law that gravity no longer exists too), meanwhile vast sectors of the economy sidestep it through airtasker, uber, ubereats, independent contracting etc etc etc. The remainder stay entrenched on welfare. What a farcical delusion. lol
03:40pm 01/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26081 posts
Good to see you're sticking to your libertarian values infi. It's easy when it's helping keep poor people down. Funny how quickly they're abandoned when it gives you a chance to attack homosexuals, though. Almost like your libertarianism is a facade to mask your prejudice against anyone and everything that isn't white, straight and rich.
04:26pm 01/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12924 posts

<script></script>
04:31pm 01/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23813 posts
So if the minimum wage is $600/week and Newstart is say $300, all those people who want to work for in between are shut out of the job market. So who is keeping the poor person down? Who is stopping people from working, forcing them on welfare and disrespecting their liberty to have a job?
05:01pm 01/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4065 posts
Any word on whether the "politicians" who defrauded the Australian tax payers for over 9 million dollars are going to have to pay it back and or spend a large chunk of time in prison?

I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a*******.
05:06pm 01/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26082 posts
The minimum wage is not $600 per week. It is x multiplied by the minimum hourly rate per week, x being the amount of hours worked. I see your months spent in the echo chamber havent made you any less dumb.
07:32pm 01/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39284 posts
are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway.
Welfare is a different topic though (but certainly related). I can only extrapolate that welfare will become more and more important going forward; it's just a logical conclusion if you think we're going to have machine doing everything anyway. But I don't see welfare as humiliating at all, certainly not compared to being 50 and having to get a job as a grill cook because that is your only option. Welfare to me in most cases is the government looking after you after you spent so many years contributing to its coffers.
Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.
I dunno man I've now lived in three countries and the one that [generally] has no minimum wage is the one with the unhappiest people with the shortest life expectancy and the highest level of government debt and the most expensive healthcare and [... list of other things]. I think making citizens happier at the cost of slightly more expensive labour is a price worth paying.

But in any case, I'm trying to find a /compromise/ between the free-market-extremist-capitalism point of view, and the everyone-should-get-all-the-money-all-the-time-no-matter-how-easy-the-job point of view. This is obviously way harder than just taking one of those positions but I think there are advantages to both and it'd be cool if we could find a way to get some of the positives from each of them.
07:35pm 01/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39285 posts
If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist.
The problem with this is that you can argue that the basic minimums to house, feed, & clothe are just driven upwards by the minimum wage, because that's just what happens - the market charges what it can bear. If you just go around giving everyone free money, the prices will just go up proportionally. This is more or less I think what happens with various things like home buying grants, etc. And of course if you have a minimum wage the price of products has to go up proportionally to account for that because production costs are higher.

So the argument against is that if there is no minimum wage it will make things cheaper. I think this is generally what happens in the US & why (outside of a few places) it seems like so many things are so cheap in the US - because they have to be because of the minimum wage.
07:40pm 01/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39286 posts
I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a*******.
I don't really blame them as much as I blame the process that does not vet them properly. If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere
07:51pm 01/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2158 posts
Just read this last page, infi is making a great case for universal income.
11:38pm 01/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3265 posts
If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere


High expectations for pollies there Trog! I should remind you Trump has the nuke codes.

So who is keeping the poor person down?


You. Moron. Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;.

In 2005, T.D. Stanley showed that Card and Krueger's results could signify either publication bias or the absence of a minimum wage effect. However, using a different methodology, Stanley concluded that there is evidence of publication bias and that correction of this bias shows no relationship between the minimum wage and unemployment.[87] In 2008, Hristos Doucouliagos and T.D. Stanley conducted a similar meta-analysis of 64 U.S. studies on disemployment effects and concluded that Card and Krueger's initial claim of publication bias is still correct. Moreover, they concluded, "Once this publication selection is corrected, little or no evidence of a negative association between minimum wages and employment remains."[88] In 2013, a meta-analysis of 16 UK studies found that the minimum wage has no significant effects on employment.[89]


In any case increasing minimum wage is in fact a tricky one because if done irresponsibly it does have measurable effects on the economy. I'm personally in favour of a larger increase in minimum wage because I think longer term effects of equality and human rights impacts society in more important (if less directly/immediately GDP-quantifiable) ways. Im also a fan of policies for tax credits for companies who hire more/increase $/hr of minimum wage employees, which would be especially attractive for larger companies. I think the ILO did a huge piece on it a while ago.

Not that any of that matters though because thanks to PP/infi and the like Trumpism is coming to Australia and One Nation voters are convinced labour laws are socialist/nazi, or something. Yay Populist Nationalism! Remember kids, free trade and immigrants are SAD.
12:20am 02/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26083 posts
12:20am 02/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3266 posts
^Lol
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts?

He should take 90% of her wage labor candy and give it to the richest kid in the neighborhood to teach her about Republicanism
12:27am 02/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2833 posts
Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;.


Jesus the did you hire your cherry picker on the minimum wage?
07:48am 02/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12925 posts
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts?


Voluntary sharing is different to Wealth Confiscation.
01:06pm 02/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39294 posts
Yes, one of them is a realistic way to run a government and the other is a dumb libertarian pipedream

edit: that stupid Trump Jr tweet was ripped off from another viral thing going around recently saying the same thing. Basically another attempt to try to justify tax cuts under the guise of "tax == socialism". F*****g useless.
09:00pm 02/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12926 posts
For Gods Sake when is the Governor General going to act on this Circus ?
Labor and Labor-Lite wont call for an audit because they dont know how many are ineligible.
Legislation may have been passed by dodgy MPs
Terminal Turnbull may have been aware of ineligible Members and kept it secret.

ITS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

https://i.imgur.com/6c91KwD.jpg


TICK TOCK

https://i.imgur.com/JCGlyJr.jpg



01:03pm 03/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39298 posts
I think the bigger news is when did they start making really s***** quality memes that were that huge in size
07:46pm 03/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26084 posts
About the time 4chan was founded.
08:43pm 03/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2834 posts
could have been made in Russia. Hey while we are backslapping about how we are really super smart and all.

Here is an ad that attracted a fee on facebook of $53 dollars planted by the russians tm.

https://static.politico.com/f2/b3/35dcae584875a3dc3f63da1eef0e/flag.png

I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that.

here is another. They blew a staggering $8.

https://static.politico.com/71/ba/8c72dd36489e862aee220357dc20/born-liberal.png

How could anyone not vote right.

They also planted an ad saying you can vote by tweeting a hashtag. <- that is a literal claim for voter suppression. The Russians. Suppressed the vote. By convincing people to tweet their vote. In a presidential election.

I don't know about you guys, but I've made up my mind. Russian trolls elected trump. the evidence speaks for itself. We need to "patch this bug in our democracy"
10:06pm 03/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5572 posts
I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that.


Yet PP would've voted Hillary.
11:46pm 03/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3267 posts
PP I found a fun one for you and your friends.

https://i.redditmedia.com/MavEOD5hEV5yMMbG2sU5_0CxR_D3R_URicbfS0RM5DQ.jpg?w=528&amp;s=dce4c18758dda4ce769ede63369aad1f

Now, I know you find that hilarious because 'one of these things is not like the other!!' Great huh. Now, bear with me. Try to replace white with Muslim and Nazi with terrorist. Then you might realise, through taking the perspective of a Muslim(!), that the top post is satire. Fun hey!?
12:22am 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3268 posts
Oh and heres a thing.

Foundations of Geopolitics, by Alexander Dugin
The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of [ethnic] Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution." The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us."[1]
Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook believes in a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[1]

The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[1]
In Europe:
Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term a "Moscow-Berlin axis".[1]
France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[1]
>United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[1]
Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[1]
Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[1]
Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian-Russian sphere.[1]
Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[1]
Romania, Macedonia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with the "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[1]
>Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "“Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[1]
In the Middle East and Central Asia:
The book stresses the "continental Russian-Islamic alliance" which lies "at the foundation of anti-Atlanticist strategy". The alliance is based on the "traditional character of Russian and Islamic civilization". Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis".[1]
Armenia has a special role and will serve as a "strategic base" and it is necessary to create "the [subsidiary] axis Moscow-Erevan-Teheran". Armenians "are an Aryan people … [like] the Iranians and the Kurds".[1]
Azerbaijan could be "split up" or given to Iran.[1]
>Georgia should be dismembered. Abkhazia and "United Ossetia" (which includes Georgia's South Ossetia) will be incorporated into Russia. Georgia's independent policies are unacceptable.[1]
Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.[1]
The book regards the Caucasus as a Russian territory, including "the eastern and northern shores of the Caspian (the territories of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan)" and Central Asia (mentioning Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirghistan and Tajikistan).[1]
In Asia:
China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet-Xinjiang-Mongolia-Manchuria as a security belt.[2] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensatation.[1]
Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.[1]
Mongolia should be absorbed into Eurasia-Russia.[1]
>The book emphasizes that Russia must spread Anti-Americanism everywhere: "the main 'scapegoat' will be precisely the U.S."
In the United States:
>Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, **provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."[1]
The Eurasian Project could be expanded to South and Central America.[1]


In case you're not up to speed on the latest in international geopolitics; this stuff is basically Russias to-do list for the past few decades, and Trump, a populist isolationist racist-pandering nationalistic warmonger, is a big win for Russia.
12:26am 04/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5573 posts
As well as the continuing fall of Trump's polling, the voters realised they've been had.
It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not.
12:38am 04/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7751 posts
^^ A+++ would allhu akbar again

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 00:42:03 04/Nov/17
12:40am 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3269 posts
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD Vas***#$!$

Happened to catch I think it was 97.3fm talking about PC GONE MAD in schools, because some schools were changing the baa baa black sheep rhyme to baa baa pink sheep or something. They kept being shocked and appalled that this could happen, kept asking why, WHY? Then after about a minute of this, a host was like.. 'well, when you think about it, it's not a good thing to be a 'black sheep'.. because it's a 'black' sheep..', 'yeah but I don't see what that has to do with the rhyme.....' 'well it has a black sheep in it..' 'but it's a sheep..' (awkward pause) You could almost, almost see the wheels of logic turning, turning at the slowest pace, before CUE ADS.

But honestly Political Correctness, it's the downfall of society I tell you. downfall. of. society. someone should really do something about it. like maybe, ban political correctness in schools. yeah. and businesses. we should set up a Political Correctness Special Task Force to go into schools and businesses and investigate and punish people who do things in a politically correct way. thatll teach those f***** LOONY LEFTIES and PROTECT MY RIGHTS TO DISREGARD BLACK ISSUES OR PERSPECTIVES IN ANY REAL WAYFREE SPEECH

Because free speech and family values are important. Especially those that are against abortion, gay rights, or any major feminist objectives.
01:17am 04/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6525 posts
f*** me
02:52am 04/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7752 posts
I think Phooksy has gone off his meds
09:03am 04/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2835 posts
Well done showing how much you care about the plight of muslims. I was so moved. What you should definitely do, while people are still being killed during a terrorist incident is start broadcasting how "not all muslims" to guard against the anti-muslim backlash that never happens. That really shows how much you care.

Yes Russia is getting everything it wants in the world right now through deft maneuvering (which is why in a covert op there are now three public bodies investigating Russian interference in the election). So phooks. Your dealing in outright conspiracy theory now well done.

Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism.


And what they mean by that in practice is blowing 8 USD on a facebook ad from a computer in Cyprus and trying to convince people to vote on twitter.

But hey you do what you have to convince yourself that only the stupid people didn't vote your way. Vash agrees with you so it's not a flying start.

It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not


Well I'm afraid it is. This is an article printed in the Atlantic.

Post modernism and identity politics are cul de sacs.
09:38am 04/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
852 posts
Vash, why do you hate Trump so much?
09:47am 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3270 posts
the anti-muslim backlash that never happens.


Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist.

This is an article printed in the Atlantic


Now here's a good one. So the argument is that the left looks at social/cultural issues so much, that it comes at the expense of looking at class issues, while at the same time, the left has an ' insouciant use of terms like ‘late capitalism’ suggesting that we can just wait for capitalism to collapse'. Because as we all know the acknowledgement that late stage capitalism has failed especially the poorest of us means we must become anarchist/apathetic revolutionaries? Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding.

Then he criticises the left for identity politics, while also arguing its biggest failing is that the left is full of 'those privileged liberal elite and academics' who need to cater to 'the pure, common man'. The level of unashamed projection is unreal.

This Left wants to preserve otherness rather than to ignore it … If the cultural Left insists on continuing its present strategy—on asking us to respect one another in our differences rather than asking us to cease noting those differences—then it will have to find a new way of creating a sense of commonality at the level of national politics. For only a rhetoric of commonality can forge a winning majority in national elections.

A good summary of the right wing understanding of racism, and inability to have a superordinate national identity outside of 'f*** people who aren't like me!'. 'You want to fix or even acknowledge racism? That's racist. Me? I'm so non-racist, I don't even see race.'

And of course, right at the bottom a video: 'populism will save the democrats!' f*****g LOL. Yes I would like to order one demagogue with fries please
12:18pm 04/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12927 posts
Happy Deny Democracy Day everyone !
or
Bash The Fash Day

https://i.imgur.com/Q2Isv9V.jpg
12:19pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5574 posts
Happy Deny Democracy Day everyone


But when your side publishes a full page ad, it's about freedom & democracy right?
01:30pm 04/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23816 posts
these guys advocate violence to promote an "anti-fascist" agenda. if they disagree with you, you will get bashed - so watch out!

they are not mentally well and should be avoided. don't go near the rallies or the universities.

the best place to go to not be injured by anti-fascists during the protests is a job-network office.
01:36pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3271 posts
Leaving out extreme right groups
Pauline

Lol
02:43pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3272 posts
02:57pm 04/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12928 posts
Malcolm Turnbull 4th September this year
In Question Time Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull called on Mr Shorten to release proof that he had renounced his UK citizenship.

"All he has to do is produce a piece of paper, that's all he's got to do," Mr Turnbull said. "What is he trying to cover up. Is it his situation or others?"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-04/bill-shorten-presents-citizenship-papers-to-parliament/8870476

Malcolm Turnbull yesterday
“What is an audit? Are we saying that we’d propose to have somebody interrogate each and every member and senator? Examine their genealogy?” The only body in Australia that could determine eligibility to sit under Section 44 of the Constitution is the High Court, Mr Turnbull said. “Nobody else can do that.”

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/government-minister-josh-frydenberg-may-be-dual-citizen-of-australia-and-hungary/news-story/99ac66dd1269dcf91e8cb60db2361ab5

...and The Holocaust, so there !

what a great big Hypocritical Wanker

Some journalist needs to grow some balls and ask Turnbull about this.
Laurie Oakes needs to come out of retirement

03:43pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
853 posts
04:54pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3273 posts
06:32pm 04/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2837 posts
Oh phooks, well I didn't think you'd understand the argument because coherent argument isn't something you do.

Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding.


There is no double think at all. The people most likely to scold others about privilege on the left are the most likely to have a s*** load of it.

Policing speech is much cheaper then actually doing stuff. So they don't focus on inequality that is the point. They focus on largely irrelevant factors to avoid actually having to do s***.

Hillary Clinton's campaign was the epitome of it. roping in JayZ to scold everyone about privilege. Because he is black. Just ignore the billion dollars he has in the bank. Focused too much on inequality. What a joke.

Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist.


Being racist against muslims makes exactly as much sense as being racist against republicans phooks. You're a big time racist by that standard.

Anyway. I look forward to your next triggered tirade. always entertaining. The key point of that article was that it was published in a heavily left leaning paper. Good to see that sailed straight over your pretty little head too.
08:15pm 04/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3274 posts
12:10am 05/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6526 posts
that's a really thought provoking video and helped me change my views on an important political matter

edit: does anyone think friendlyjordies is actually funny? legit asking. seen him touring local rsls and have not been inclined to participate
01:48am 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5575 posts
Not really but he brings up alot of good points

Glad you got something out of it.
07:14am 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2838 posts
That vash sure can run, not to bright though.

It's funny you should bring up friendlyjordies phooks. I wonder what his take on identity politics is. (tip, its basically the same as that Atlantic article.)

Taggs, I don't agree with him on too much but I find him funny. He has a house party video which I get a chuckle out of.
08:35am 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5576 posts

PP in all his wisdom thinks there is no systemic nor cultural oppression of minorities. The naivety is strong in this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/unequal-sentences-for-blacks-and-whites.html


09:03am 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2839 posts
Vash in all his wisdom still hasn't figured out that correlation is not causation. This is classic idiot left wing thinking. Disparity therefore systematic society wide effort spent to achieve said disparity.

I'll take an NYT story on sentence disparity seriously when it places crime rates in the same article.
09:23am 05/11/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1114 posts
Here's something with *6 times* the racial prison gap....

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant.
11:01am 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2840 posts
Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant.


What happens to the racial gap when you control for the gender gap?
12:34pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5577 posts
This is classic idiot left wing thinking.


Meanwhile heres the kind of thinking from the right wing.

https://i.imgur.com/DwSEAkR.jpg

Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought. Analysis of facts, and applying policy based on science. The right wing provides a many dumbism from Hanson, Contrell, Abbott, Trump and countless others.
It's a very emotional political philosophy.
01:11pm 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2841 posts
Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought.


Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics. That post which doesn't contain a blatant internal contradiction is out there vash.

Riddle me this Vash.

Sentencing disparity against blacks = society is prejudiced against blacks.

Rukh just gave evidence that the sentencing disparity against men in general is 6 times larger than against blacks. Is society prejudiced against men? If not why not.
01:34pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5578 posts
Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics.


Yes... the emotive tweet is from the right side of politics. Are you confused?

Sentencing disparity is but one facet of prejudice against blacks. Many other examples that im sure you know of. Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway.
01:55pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3275 posts
02:00pm 05/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12929 posts
Federal Greens MP Adam Bandt has accused Immigration Minister Peter Dutton of being a "terrorist" over the treatment of 600 asylum seekers at the now-closed Manus Island detention centre.

"What is happening between Canberra and Manus has ceased to be government and has become terror," Mr Bandt told a rally in Melbourne's CBD attended by hundreds of people on Saturday. "If the definition of terror is to use violence and threaten people's lives for political purposes, then Peter Dutton is a terrorist."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/greens-terrorist-claim-puts-us-in-danger/news-story/ca5f17e4d4adb7df1491adfa131ff20c

What do you call people who encourage poor ppl in 3rd world countries that are mysteriously wealthy enough to pay ppl smugglers thousands of US $$ to illegally trespass in to our great Country ?

How would Boy Bandt feel about more children drowning as they travel here on leaky boats ?

the greens are like a pre-teens Political Party.
02:01pm 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2842 posts
Are you confused?

Do you know he thinks its emotive? how does a statement like that make you feel vash?

Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway.

Would that be you talking out of your ass? Because it reads like you talking out your ass.

So just to sum that up for you real quick.

You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime.

You've said some stupid f*****g s*** vash, but that is right on up there.
02:14pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5579 posts
Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you.
02:23pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3276 posts
PP, arguably the perfect human, and now expert on gender differences, finds that differences between male and female incarceration and victimisation rates are unfair, in particular instances with bias towards men and women for different crimes.

Continuing with his groundbreaking research agenda, he finds gender expectations define acceptable behaviours and attitudes for both females and males and this has measurable effects on the criminologocal and justice system.

He coins his new research 'gender studies' and goes on to have a successful career as a postdoctoral researcher at a liberal University, founding the 'Gender Studies Institute of Australia'.
02:25pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3277 posts
His friends distance themselves from him, citing his 'f***** gay career' and 'f*****ty liberal arts degree'.

Meanwhile, friendships with his new peers at University (the Liberal Intelligentsia) cause him an identity crisis, and he starts questioning whether he is really part of the 'Republican Race' after all.
02:54pm 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2843 posts
Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought.
You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime.
Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you.


Delicious. I understand the sentence just fine vash. Not sure you do. I don't suppose you can back that up with any evidence can you?

Phooks, arguably human, managed to deduce from that that I think society is prejudiced against men.

I think rather than start 'gender studies' ill start an adult literacy program. It's mildly concerning you owe people a professional duty.
03:12pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
854 posts
Civilisation

civilization ˌsɪvɪlʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/Submit noun noun: civilisation the stage of human social development and organization which is considered most advanced. "the Victorians equated the railways with progress and civilization" synonyms: human development, advancement, progress, enlightenment, edification, culture, cultivation, refinement, sophistication "a higher stage of civilization" the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social development and organization. the society, culture, and way of life of a particular area. plural noun: civilizations; plural noun: civilisations "the great books of Western civilization"


Savages

savage ˈsavɪdʒ/Submit noun plural noun: savages 1. (chiefly in historical or literary contexts) a member of a people regarded as primitive and uncivilized. synonyms: barbarian, wild man, wild woman, primitive, heathen; cannibal "Sheila had expected mud huts and savages" 2. a brutal or vicious person. "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" synonyms: brute, beast, monster, barbarian, ogre, demon, sadist, animal "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" verb 3rd person present: savages 1. (especially of a dog or wild animal) attack ferociously and maul. "police are rounding up dogs after a girl was savaged" synonyms: maul, attack, tear to pieces, lacerate, claw, bite, mutilate, mangle; worry "11-year-old Kelly was savaged by two Rottweilers"
03:44pm 05/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23817 posts

jordies' predictable shtick is real cringe - he needs to change it up (buy new wigs). he reckons 20% of the budget is welfare. not according to parliament library.

Key issue
Social security and welfare represents 35 per cent of the Australian Government’s expenses. The level and sustainability of this expenditure will be a key issue for the Parliament.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

if you work, you must give the government money. if you don't work, the govt gives you money. what a deal!

and if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job, well you have to stay on welfare because the govt and unions says so.


04:34pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
185 posts

jordies' predictable shtick is real cringe - he needs to change it up (buy new wigs). he reckons 20% of the budget is welfare. not according to parliament library.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

if you work, you must give the government money. if you don't work, the govt gives you money. what a deal!

and if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job, well you have to stay on welfare because the govt and unions says so.



You might want to take a look at the graph in that article, 'social security and welfare' includes a lot more than those lazy f*****g dole bludgers. They make up a very small part of it.
05:07pm 05/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23818 posts
It's all welfare and it's paid for by a) a shrinking number of working people and b) borrowed money.
05:17pm 05/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26085 posts
So the elderly and disabled should go and get jobs then? One thing you need to keep in mind is that for some people jobs are actually hard. Not everyone has an impossible to fail position to parachute into their dad's office with when they fail at life in the real world like you do.
06:06pm 05/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23820 posts
if you knew anything about business you would know how risky it is when at that whims of banks and public policy. but you know nothing about business so make ad hominen attacks instead. SAD!

the disabled should work as best they can with assistance and adjustments. some profoundly disabled people need full government support. seniors should work as long as they are able. they should be proud to contribute and feel part of a valued team. my financial controller is 70 and she is a bloody legend, she loves life and loves work.

the lame "i paid my taxes, i'm owed a pension" culture weakens our country.
06:19pm 05/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26086 posts
Yeah I don't know a whole lot about business but I know a bit about you. Like that time you thought employment was a choice between a $300 Newstart payment and a $600 minimum salary with nothing in between. You're obviously as thick as s***, how could you ever be trusted with anything important? And just lately you're still willfully ignorant of the fact that not everyone has an easy job to just fall into and that the majority of jobs are hard and unrewarding. But hey gotta keep that libertarian smoke screen active to mask your racism and homophobia don't ya?
06:45pm 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2844 posts
your racism and homophobia


Bingo!
06:50pm 05/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23821 posts
Is it illegal to accept a full time job paying $450/week?

i treat fpot's use of "racism and homophobia" as an uncontrollable asperger's like condition. it should be ignored
06:51pm 05/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26087 posts
So you've chosen to ignore casual employment which makes up the vast majority of entry level positions, especially in the $300 to $600 bracket?

edit: and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe. I didn't think you were 100% terrible.
07:04pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5580 posts
Infi meets a workaholic 70 year old and suddenly thinks everyone that age wants to keep working after having worked their whole lives.
07:13pm 05/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23822 posts
Can a casual employee choose to work for $15/hour? No. The argument re minimum wage applies to hourly rates too. If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare.

The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude. So that the union award racket is entrenched.

Fpot doesn't care about youth unemployment and elderly long-term unemployed. SAD.
07:52pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5581 posts
The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude.


The entire welfare process is about getting people into work or learning. Thankfully you haven't required it otherwise you'd know this instead of spouting what you've read in the daily telegraph or on a current affair.
08:08pm 05/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26088 posts
Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb?
08:09pm 05/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2845 posts
your racism and homophobia
and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe.
Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb?


Yeah why is that?
08:42pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
855 posts
Stupid people turn things personal.
09:16pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3278 posts
infi for a hardcore libertarian you show a failing of understanding of labour markets. You also seem to think that the biggest motivation you can give someone is poverty, which is pretty sick.

If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare.


Disregarding your baseless assumption that giving poor people a 'living wage' (just above poverty?) decreases their motivation to work (an assumption that doesn't somehow apply to tax breaks or subsidies to businesses/the wealthy in order to incentivise 'investment and opportunities'..?), the value workers get paid is not based on the value they produce (that's socialism!), but based on employer offerings for different labour markets/award rates etc. In any case, obsessive cost cutting is good strategy for any one business, but it is bad for the national economy. Can you think of why?

Second;
if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job


You seem to think that the value someone can produce is a choice, disregarding the mathematical impossibility of number of available jobs vs. number of unemployed/underemployed right now. Even if it was a choice, the value produced by a person at their workplace is determined moreso by the requirements and resources/demands of their job rather than their performance at it (unless they are brand new/toxic/bottom performer). Either way your logic would then look something like this I assume

https://i.redd.it/oo9xn45yitlz.jpg

At the core of the libertarian mindset is that businesses and markets should be free to set prices as they want, but what comes with that is that those businesses are under no obligations whatsoever to use that freedom for the betterment of their workers or society, which is one reason real wages have remained flat while business profits continue towards record profits over the last few decades. We do not live in a meritocracy. If you think we do because of your personal entrepreneurial success story, I would remind you that that's like a lottery winner telling everyone to just buy lottery tickets for a living.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a government assistance program like the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme. Is that just another wasteful handout or are entrepreneurs a superior class of human?

Even if you disagree with all of the above infi, the price of labour is increasing and the price of automation/AI and robots in decreasing. Libertarianism is not our gateway out of this mess.
09:43pm 05/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3279 posts
09:44pm 05/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39304 posts

Here's a post I made on FB in response to a question my (American) cousin asked related to minimum wage which is kinda relevant; he was asking along the broad lines of whether it's possible for us to come up with some sort of generic simple job anyone can do whenever they want to make enough money to live happily in the event they can't find the work they want to do.

I don't think so, outside of massive projects that could only possibly exist because there is an infinite supply of basically free labour. (Reminded of the famous shovel & spoons quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/10/spoons-shovels/ ).

The libertarian/free market solution to this is to drop the minimum wage, which [they think] will ensure a ready supply of basic low wage jobs across all sectors, along with a bunch of other benefits.

(Having a quick look at the states that have no minimum wage (Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee) it is interesting to note that they're all in the middle of the pack in terms of GDP, but also all in the bottom 10 by something called " American Human Development Index", which is apparently "a biennial report on human well-being in the United States" (link). Four of them also feature in the CNBC's list of "America’s worst states to live in 2017" (link).

There are obviously a huge amount of other factors but on the surface I find it hard to credit the libertarian/free market idea that no minimum wage results in a better outcome. I confess I find the idea seductive; I'm enough of a capitalist to want the market to find a solution to these kinds of problems. But (as is typical in most cases) I think the only realistic answer lies in a compromise between two extremes and the constant push-and-pull between them to find an appropriate balance for the times.


07:24pm 06/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
856 posts
Your cousin could join the army, or clean floors at NASA, those things are big business over there. Maybe sell flags and eagles, they like them too. Just import them from China and sew the made in USA patches on, they will sell like hots cakes. Nationalistic inclusive deluded nation.

Here is an image for Vash (and all other Trump haters):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DM2QyoJUIAAhhbq.jpg
09:48pm 06/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3280 posts
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/US_Wealth_Inequality_-_v2.png

Australian jobless poverty rates are at 53.5%, the second worst nation recorded by the OECD. The only jobs that are being created are part-time, and the unemployment rate is higher than what it was a few years ago. And because the wealth of the lower and middle class is tied up in real estate any rise in interest rates will probably mean the end of, you guessed it, not just our housing market.

Is it the billionaires, multi-nationals and mega-rich who should answer to society? No, society does not own businesses, shareholders do! And we all know society owes its very existence to shareholders. Labour government, unions and labour laws never did anything right, and have really bad economic policy. Let's instead blame and punish those who cannot find work - those on welfare are responsible for everything.

Tax avoidance and offshore havens? No, that's ridiculous spin cooked up by those bleeding heart lefties. People in poverty, now that's where my anger is.
10:17pm 06/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3282 posts
And remember kids, those big-government advocates are wrong, debt BAD, austerity GOOD. (This propaganda brought to you by Rupert Murdoch).

Austerity in Australia: Yanis Varoufakis offers lessons from the eurozone.

Why this penchant for austerity?

The intellectually curious cannot, at this juncture, fail to ask: if austerity is a foregone disaster, why is it so popular amongst conservative governments? The answer lies not so much in the austerity measures that they adopt but, rather, in those which they shun.

For instance, if the Australian government wanted to slash the federal deficit, why did it not think of culling the factor price-distorting fuel subsidy to miners and farmers, which costs Canberra $7.5 billion annually? How about the private health insurance subsidy that could have saved the government $7 billion every year, some of which could be spent on public hospitals without any net loss to health care provision? Why abolish the $5 billion carbon tax? Indeed, why keep the Howard government’s tax cuts, which were responsible for the increase in public debt as a result of the faulty assumption that corporate and capital gains taxes would pay for them ad infinitum?

The obvious answer is that austerity was never about tackling public debt. It was not even a political campaign to end the ‘culture of entitlement’. In the UK, in the eurozone, and now in Australia, austerity is, and always was, a thinly disguised campaign of invoking fiscal prudence and public virtues in order to indulge private vices and redistribute entitlements at the expense of the majority.
12:24am 07/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3283 posts
Vote TrumpHanson
12:25am 07/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2847 posts
So when paul keating spent 6 years lowering Australia's government spending from from 30% GDP to 25% and working to get rid of debt, it was to f*** the lower class and middle classes, gotcha.

I mean he and *everyone else* might contest that and point to the 25 straight years of low inflation growth and living standards among the highest on the planet. But the Labor treasurer was out to f*** the little man.

Oh and please use graphs that don't end just after the GFC.
09:44am 07/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3284 posts
Ah yes the Keating government, the pro-Asia pro-free trade, and pro-affirmative action government that introduced bills like the disability act to help disabled people get jobs. But f*** all that because really, the lower corporate tax rate is what we have to thank for getting out of the recession (a recession which in no way was part of a longer term business cycle with market corrections that had no long-term benefits whatsoever to, say, interest rates). What we should do, is keep lowering and lowering corporate tax rates because that magically increases GDP with no negative consequences whatsoever. Forget economic or political stability, infrastructure, worker skills or industry attractiveness. Low tax, now that is what drives an economy.

Just look how disgustingly HIGH our corporate tax rate is
http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8426034/data/corporate-tax-rates-around-the-world-data.jpg

In fact, we should follow the trend of Ireland and the Cayman Islands and just lower the official corporate tax rate to 10%. Then we can become the World Leader in the Race to The Bottom. PP don't you wonder why modern day conservatives are isolationist? Protectionist? Because they have a 'f***-you-got-mine' attitude to international trade. We live in a shared world PP. Globalisation exists! Like it or not your fate is tied moreso to those Chinese factory workers than it is to Trump. This is why Russia really doesn't give a f*** about Australia outside of our US 'alliance'.

Most importantly to your argument though, government expenditure is BAD, as it increases DEBT, and has absolutely no effect on the level of demand for goods and services in the economy.

Oh wait no, it does.

Fiscal austerity reduces demand for goods and services arising out of public sector activity and increases the public debt to GDP ratio. Production = demand for goods and services, austerity = downward pressure on production and in turn the growth of output and employment. Even if the interest rates payable goes down, this will have an opposite effect on the private sector/confidence if no one is buying. Do you think a $ spent by the government is somehow drastically different to the $ spent by consumers?

Lower 'government' spending = lower spending = literally the opposite of economic 'growth'.

Even if I was wrong, right wing rhetoric on austerity doesn't actually mean reduced spending and 'fixing the debt'. It never f*****g does. Fuel subsidy, private health insurance subsidy, carbon tax, corporate and capital gains tax cuts? If they wanted to fix the debt tomorrow they could. The bulls*** pandering about the 'debt' isn't about the f*****g debt. It's about “freeing” up markets. And in case you can't translate from everyday conservative dog whistling, this means a race to the bottom in both the labour market and on corporate tax rates.
01:14pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3285 posts
What I love most is that when someone speaks of equality on behalf of the poorest and most disadvantaged amongst us, it's communistic class warfare. But when business execs and billionaires come out about lower tax rates class warfare is never f***** brought up.

That's because 'small government-pro-market' types like PP, Nmag and infi have been fed the bulls*** excuses that neoliberal policy increases productivity which leads to better pay for workers and better outcomes for society. Which it doesn't. The increases in productivity haven't 'trickled down' to the rest of society in over 35 years.

Which is probably what I love about your Keating example the most PP. You know how Keating saved Australia? What the f*** do you think he saved us from? The neoliberal policies of the 80s lead to the deepest modern recession Australia has ever seen - beating the more recent geat recession. Somehow small government pro market always works, so long as you ignore all the times it doesn’t.

Are there any other failings of neoliberal policy? Lets see, poorer infrastructure which is still under attack by the right, housing affordability, GFC, oh and you know, not too big of a deal but just the end of the f*****g world.
01:30pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3286 posts
Can you believe the greens want to regulate a "business environment that encourages businesses and governments to fulfil their corporate, social and environmental responsibilities"? Those f***** commies don't even know how to run a business. Not least a hugely successful business. Not like Trump does.

This type of left wing over-regulation is totalitarian. Don't they realise Hitler was a socialist? Why else would the Nazis name themselves the National Socialist German Workers' Party? You can't really say the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is anything but democratic.
02:12pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9528 posts
WTF just happened?
02:39pm 07/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12932 posts
I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.
Wealthy people have been getting wealthier with the more Socialism we have.

Socialism has Failed.
(well if you are poor that is)

Hang on a minute, maybe thats why Limousine Liberals promote it ?
Because it makes them Wealthier.



05:11pm 07/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2848 posts
WTF just happened?


I pointed out that the greatest treasurer Labor has ever produced had a very specific target for government spending (and was generally neo-liberal in his approach), and phooks got triggered.

Cause he does.

Australia had a recession in 1990. It has been targeting government spending of around 25% of GPD and hasn't had one since.
05:24pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
857 posts
It's in the affluent interest to open borders. It increases population, helps keep wages lower.
07:15pm 07/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39306 posts
I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.
Wealthy people have been getting wealthier with the more Socialism we have.
I think you missed the bit about the second huge recent revelation about wealthy people skipping the "social" part of "socialism" by offshoring their wealth and evading taxes.

You say some pretty incredible things but this could be the first time in history where someone has said socialism is responsible for making people too rich. Nice one!
07:52pm 07/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39307 posts
How could someone be left wing, and support increased competition for themselves in:
-property market
-job opportunities
-public services (education, transport, health)
-welfare
You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain.

I vote we stop using terms 'left' and 'right' in political discussions. I am thinking about blocking them client side in a few places to see what it does to the overall level of visible political discourse. I think the main effect will be to filter out the Russian troll conversations, and those indistinguishable from same from clueless extremists on both sides. I can't think of a single reasonable conversation I've had recently where those terms (and maybe 'liberal' and 'conservative', and I guess while I'm at it, 'libtard' and 'rwnj').
08:02pm 07/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39308 posts
interesting article from BBC this morning looking at some famour car racer guy's tax avoidance schemes as revealed in the latest whatever papers leak.

Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law
08:08pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2159 posts

Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law


This guys website has a few things on the big 4 accounting firms being more of a risk to the economy than bankers.

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/bonfire-of-the-big-four-accounting-firms-a-risk-to-world-economy/

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/pwc-gives-bludgers-a-lesson-in-corporate-welfare/
08:38pm 07/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
858 posts
You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain.


Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please?
09:21pm 07/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39309 posts
Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please?
that's not what I said, but Prisoner's dilemma is kind of where I'm going with this. i.e., you're better off accepting a small increase in competition if it results in generally greater equality for everyone, because the long term result of competition at the expense of cooperation is, surprise surprise, a bad outcome for everyone except a few people at the really pointy end. (This has been demonstrated many times in history.)

Arguably you have the right as an Australian to say "well f*** the rest of the world I only care about Australians and immigrants can go f*** themselves", but at least be honest about it. I guess I'd just say, bear in mind there are always going to be a lot of people on your "side" (whatever that is) that depend on immigration to keep their businesses and lives afloat in some way, whether or not they realise it.
09:46pm 07/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26089 posts
My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to.
01:52am 08/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12934 posts
02:00am 08/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39311 posts
hey how can we make this really important issue partisan so we can stop talking about solving it and instead spend all our time finger pointing in the most divisive way possible

don't worry, the russians have it covered already

edit: I'm going to bookmark this response because I think it will come in handy
02:20am 08/11/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9529 posts
My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to.


I know right? It's almost as though the international laws around first country of asylum - the laws tthat say that to be eligible for asylum you must claim it in the first country you pass through that it is available in - was ignored! Hell, from the way people are supposedly being treated on Manus, you'd think guards were going around with sticks beating others, and withholding food from them to starve them to death... wait, no, that's the people living there doing that. Hm.

Wait so if I rock up to another country and treat myself and others like s*** to make for awesome media coverage, can around get around their immigration laws? For any country I want?
07:14am 08/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6528 posts
I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.

Not surprised though, that's the same Michael West who when writing about the "fair" amount of tax companies pay was unable to distinguish or understand the difference between accounting profit and taxable income in previous articles some time back.
07:19am 08/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39312 posts
I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.
So I thought the insurance comment was quite interesting because I'm currently working on a project in the insurance industry & now have more than a passing familiarity with it - so I thought it was extremely vague because [now I know!] there are sooooo many different types of insurance in different areas.

I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring.
08:02pm 08/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23823 posts
The biggest wealth transfer in modern history has occurred courtesy of stimulus and bank bailouts which were supposed to be for the people by big-government left-wing governments. The banks scared everyone, the govermments got spooked by a potential depression and mass unemployment, throw out helicopter money to prop up weak economies and the rich made a killing. It would have been far more beneficial (for workers) to allow the economy to reset, so that new industries would sprout faster.

Keep it up with the government intervention and the rich will get richer even faster than they already are.

Four Corners only had time to scratch the surface but national governments can't hope to stop this kind of off shoring unless they unite in multinational agreements to sanction non-complying countries. This already occurs in relation to certain ex-tax havens e.g. Switzerland but others simply do not care if they are cut off, because they use half way (half-compliant) countries to launder their money.

Australia could easily come down harder on domestically generated revenue by refusing off shore deductions (IP charges or non arms length interest charges). The government just needs to grow a set.

The recently enacted Multinational Anti-Avoidance Law barely starts to address tax avoidance by Multinats.
09:18pm 08/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2849 posts
but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations.


Even if they do, it doesn't follow they are threat to the global economy as a result. If its appropriately managed it would still serve its purpose.
09:31pm 08/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21398 posts
trog with the sly CBA advertising
03:06pm 09/11/17 Permalink
anonymousxvi
Brisbane, Queensland
37 posts
I don't agree with captialism, monarchism, socialism, communism etc i think we need to design a new society :D with rational ethics and based on truth.
04:07pm 09/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6529 posts
I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring.


Running a business involves taking on a measure of risk in order to earn a return. Every business “self-insures” some (actually most) aspects of their operations because if you were able to perfectly insure every risk a business was exposed to then it logically follows you’re exposed to zero risk. If you can earn a return on a risk free operation that’s what’s known as arbitrage and you would (and should!) do as much of that activity as you possibly could (i.e. infinity) until you can’t earn a return anymore. Arbitrage is more commonly seen as a finance concept but this example where a business could perfectly insure every risk and still earn a return would be a physical/business sort of arbitrage.

Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business.

The reason I raised professional indemnity insurance in particular in my previous post is that is the sort of insurance that protects professionals when the results of advice they give in a professional context results in them being involved in litigation. A related insurance is public liability which protects against being found liable for negligence or providing negligent advice.

As you might imagine, big 4 firms purchase significant amounts of these sorts of insurance to protect against these risks. Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services. Thus when the article redhat linked claims that the big 4 pose a global financial risk because they could be sued for taxation advice they give and that they would collapse because they don’t insure against this risk I pointed out that this is not correct.
05:47pm 09/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39315 posts
Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business.
Right; in the context of the article, I assumed "self-insure" meant actually to have an internal insurance group that literally does risk analysis and applies it as a cost centre to their operations - this seems like the kind of thing a giant well organised megacorp that specialises in finance would do. But your explanation makes more sense & I guess is way more likely.
Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services.
Even at the small scale I've operated this has been a requirement on some contracts I've worked on.

I am more interested in the type of insurance I'm working on at the moment - trade credit insurance. I suspect it's less of a big deal for big-4 types because they can probably more effectively do due diligence before engaging so risk of non-payment is lower, but I'm sure it still happens. Almost certainly though a failure here wouldn't trigger the collapse of one of them, let alone all of them.

edit: the biggest threat to the big 4 is fintech/regtech and I hope they all go out of business together, like I do for all accountants. Sorry accountant friends but machines should be doing my tax automatically and I never should have to think about it ever.
07:11pm 09/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
859 posts
I believe there are naive, well meaning people who live in regions relatively unaffected by the social challenges mass immigration (from 3rd world particularly) can have on society.

Save the trees!
05:52pm 10/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39317 posts
You are conflating so many issues in your post though dude. You're implying there's just one group of clueless morons who want immigration without realising that it means they're going to be competing for jobs. The reality is though there are many pro immigration groups, with their own agendas or beliefs:

- the Birkenstock wearing hippie clueless commie socialist pinkos who think we should just let in anyone because hey, that's just like, their opinion, man
- the globally conscious well off person who realises how f*****g lucky they are who thinks maybe we can let a few people who are fleeing death squads from their own country and bombs that we are at the very least culpable in dropping on their children, because it's just the human thing to do
- economists and related types that look at population growth as an interesting number on a spreadsheet and realise that without immigration our population will decline
- small business owners and technology companies trying to carve out a new niche or build a new market and requiring skills that simply do not exist at all in Australia
- our farms and our billionaire miner class who desperately need more workers (often seasonal) because it's hard to find Australians to do that kind of work

On the other side what do we have?

- Hypocritical free market extremists who make a lot of noise about the importance of competition in solving all the world's problems, except in this case
- Hypocritical libertarians who believe that liberty should only apply to people who happened to immigrate to their country in one specific time window several hundred years ago and everyone else can go f*** themselves
- People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning
- Racists
- People who claim not to be racists but don't want immigration because of various strawmen that ultimately resolve into one of the above classes, usually racism or some other form of generally clueless bigotry

edit: I should say, I probably fall into several of these groups to various levels, including some of the negative ones, and I suspect most people are the same

Fwiw "low-skilled imports", as you sneeringly and condescendingly call them, are the minority of the immigration that we get (last I checked I think something like 70% of immigrants to Australia are on a skilled migration path).
08:49pm 10/11/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12919 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: misrepresentation of events
Send Private Message
11:54pm 10/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
1246 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: f***it, why bother
Send Private Message
03:01am 11/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2850 posts
- People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning


I mean I don't know why everyone got so worked up about shooting down MH17, doesn't everyone know you're much more likely to die falling down stairs than be deliberately shot down in a civilian aircraft? I could shoot down 50 more and it would still be much less likely than death by falling down stairs so no biggy right?.
08:19am 11/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2160 posts

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2017/11/11/how-the-greens-drive-policy/15103188005492?

Even the Greens’ traditional enemies in the right-wing press now say so. To cite but one of many recent examples, a piece in The Australian last week rather begrudgingly acknowledged the Greens as the only party to have acted “honourably” in the matter.

“This,” it said, “is what it has come to: compared to the Coalition and the opposition, the Greens – yes the Greens – are one of the few adults in the room.”

On Wednesday evening this week, Di Natale was invited onto Andrew Bolt’s show on Sky News, where the host was in furious agreement with his guest that
the two major parties were involved in a “protection racket”.


Greens to the rightwing media be all like:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/9bd068fb30734ffb332b1e53005ae19a/tenor.gif

Jesus, auspol even more is hilariously bad than usual atm.

Is any meaningful legislation going to be passed before xmas?
09:52am 11/11/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18486 posts
Hey nMag, I get the impression you have some solid schizoid features, do you?
11:17am 11/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5586 posts
Yep Redhat, the way the Greens handled the citizenship mess deserves respect.
It just shows they are more deserving of leading us than many in Government. When a politician doesn't cling onto power scratching & screaming, it's telling.
03:57pm 11/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23826 posts
it's great when the govt doesn't pass laws - it means less s*** ideas to raise taxes for.
07:11pm 11/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
860 posts
There are other ways of increasing population. We are offering too much free stuff, and thus attract people who seek free stuff.

Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate.
10:26am 12/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21400 posts
Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate.


i don't think it was a personal attack so much as an observation of your c***ish posting
08:45am 13/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
861 posts
Another resorting to personal comments. I'll tone things down, so they are less triggering.

So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building?
09:46am 13/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21401 posts
yes you are the king of triggering people
01:09pm 13/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26091 posts
We should call him TriggerDog.
02:40pm 13/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2161 posts
So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building?

I think the last rally I went to was last year. It was to protest the nsw gov's war on cyclists.

Was tempted to go to the vote yes rally but it rained and I'm a fair weather activist.
06:47pm 13/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40860 posts
hahaha
08:37pm 13/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3289 posts
01:06pm 14/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3290 posts
01:07pm 14/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3292 posts
02:29pm 14/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2851 posts
Oh phooks.

Would you like me to respond so you can trigger yourself?

Marx said capitalism was killing itself in 1830. Its 2017, so that means there is only 13 years to go until he has been consistently wrong for 200 straight years.
06:27pm 14/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3295 posts
yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning

12:19am 19/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7759 posts
Phooks is off his meds again
12:24am 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3296 posts
Thanks for your input slaps
01:22am 19/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2852 posts
yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning


oh follow that up with "what are universal human rights".

No please inform me what universal human rights are and what has been marxism's contribution to them phooks? (hint it has been how to violate them as egregiously as possible)

you know because activists aren't dumb or something.

hey here is something for you to trigger yourself over. Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings.
10:20am 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23830 posts
awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point.
10:31am 19/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5588 posts
PP is triggered hard by Phooks posts lol.

awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point.


Certainly beats the quality of your posts
01:22pm 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23831 posts
another absolutely bullseye, on fire.
01:59pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3297 posts
Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong.

What we really need is LESS civil disobedience and rubble rousers. LESS government spending (especially in recession). MORE protection against those illiegals comin from the boats. priority #1 right there. military is our best option . why have manus at all? just turn the boats away. their responsibility.

We need to go back to the better times. When men were real men, able to earn what they deserved, and women were real women, away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm).

Anyway like I always say I'm proud to be white #whitelivesmatter
03:58pm 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23833 posts
that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.
04:13pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3299 posts
So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics, then attack me based on an imagined identity? Boy I hope you're trolling or stupid.
04:44pm 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23834 posts
Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich.

I think you left out Islamaphobia. Sorry I used "left" trog.
04:54pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5589 posts
Oh god save me from this libertarian nonsense

https://i.imgur.com/22mv2vv.jpg?2
05:03pm 19/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2854 posts
So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics


Gee I hope you're talking about this

Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings.


Because that was specific policy, with a clear explanation of the philosophy underpinning it.

this on the other hand.
Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong.


Is you drinking hoping for attention again. or in short phooks got triggered. again.

You keep on plugging vash.

Here is another oneline triggering for you phooks.

away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm).


Never trump newspaper the economist expresses concern the current state of the debate around transgender people throws children under the bus.

Notes clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job.
07:31pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3301 posts
The disability discrimination Act was not austerity.

The biggest issue trans children have to go through is the toxic attitudes towards gender dysphoria held by people like you

clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job.


Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid?
08:28pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3302 posts
Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich.

I think you left out Islamaphobia


Thanks Trump.

I don't know where you get this anti-laws bulls*** from, as if laws and regulations or any standards of behaviour at all are evil, but guess what whether you like it or not A) government exists and paying taxes is for the good of society (& more accurately monetary policy) and B) in the face of falling consumer confidence and a failing economy the only thing that helps is stimulation and investment aka govt spending.

In a neoliberal market to maximise growth govt spending would ideally follow business cycles
08:37pm 19/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2855 posts
The disability discrimination Act was not austerity.


Keating implemented it and he says otherwise. So yeah it was. Keating's attitude was people who can be working should be and the government should support that and not cut cheques just because. Go look at the wiki article, or read his biographies. He was unequivocal.


The biggest issue trans children have to go through is the toxic attitudes towards gender dysphoria held by people like you


You don't know my attitude toward trans children.

Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid?


So I guess the fact that the overwhelming body of evidence suggesting that gender dysphoric children desist doesn't enter into it.

Anyway, you should line up some youtube videos. It's all you've got.
08:37pm 19/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39328 posts
that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.
out of interest, how does 'identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies'?

When the only tool you have is a hammer, etc. Everything is 'identity politics' to some degree. I hope the irony of you complaining about 'identity politics' after steadfastly and blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years regardless of their position (until recent times when they've become a international laughing stock) is not lost on you!
08:39pm 19/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2856 posts
how does identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies'


Oh good so it was a
fairly incoherent set of values


I wonder if we can get phooks to admit he is suffering cognitive dissonance and

whats the word, I think you used 'sneeringly' (though I think I like 'lets put on our condescending c*** pants')

call that progress.
08:55pm 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23835 posts
blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years


I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter.
10:12pm 19/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39331 posts
I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter.
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*
10:37pm 19/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26093 posts
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*
This would assume infi is capable of change.
10:42pm 19/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23836 posts
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*


both - I value strong IR laws and balanced budgets (welfare cuts etc). Once Libs stopped down that path they lost me. So I guess a bit of both.
11:07pm 19/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3303 posts

Don't forget your only other value infi, 'free speech'. Bet you're a real inspirational leader in your workplace with such egalitarian views

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millennials-ok-with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/

'But what if I just absolutely have to say offensive things about minority groups publicly?! It's my only source of joy. What do you MEAN I can't call em blacks or Abos?! What r ya f***** supposed to call em?'


12:22pm 20/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2164 posts
This thread needs more spicy memes.

https://i.imgur.com/vKzmaIf.jpg
01:58pm 20/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
863 posts
One day the Greens might run the country and fix things.

lol
05:52pm 20/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2857 posts
Phooks has managed to close the loop. He can just feed himself one line and be triggered. I hope you washed your hand after that phooks.
06:27pm 20/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11722 posts
Yeah, i can identify with infi's sentiment toward the Liberal Party - i too was once fairly pro-Liberal, but when they walked away from the Howard-style policies (middle class welfare, future fund, gun laws, strong aus manufacturing) and turn to economic globalisation, weak leadership and the watering down of medicare
06:48pm 20/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7760 posts
Is it just me or does Shorten come across as a shifty karnt?
08:21pm 20/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3305 posts
political discourse with memes, now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BfSk-kjP0YQ/UenR4yN5z2I/AAAAAAAAEmA/mVhiIJisnzE/s1600/carlin.jpg
11:13pm 20/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3306 posts
11:14pm 20/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2858 posts
now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level


You sure you're going to be able to handle it then?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwzIfO9CAAACVh6.jpg

I know right. I mean I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights. Their connection to the land is just a genetic accident...
07:42am 21/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
864 posts

This document was interesting to read over, it's for NSW. Would be interesting to see the Qld and Vic versions:

https://www.treasury.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2017-01/Budget_Paper_5_-_Intergenerational_Report_2016_-_full_report.pdf


09:53am 21/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3307 posts
I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights


You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters).

Aboriginals are a single nation, right?
12:10pm 21/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3308 posts
PP/Nmag/infi, what are your opinions on vaccines?
12:11pm 21/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3309 posts
Oh hey it's that pesky far left-wing lobbying group, the Australian Medical Association, coming to impose their crazy political views on everyone. Stupid doctors.

"It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions." Government spokesmen were not immediately available for comment. Australia's immigration policy, under which it refuses to allow asylum seekers arriving by boat to reach its shores, has been heavily criticised by the United Nations and human rights groups
https://scontent.fbne4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23659223_10214855363601730_6810742798342879377_n.jpg?oh=48709db55dfe44b64abdf34357a185db&amp;oe=5AA65D24
12:34pm 21/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23837 posts
I've got no problem with vaccines. I do have a problem with undocumented unauthorised arrivals and people smugglers. Australia should exit the Refugee convention.
03:05pm 21/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26095 posts
Remember when you used to say the concentration camps were okay because at least the detainees were being fed, watered and sheltered? Now that isn't happening anymore, would you say you are more happy with the concentration camps or less happy with them?
03:36pm 21/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23838 posts
The visitors can leave at any time. The replacement housing is ready for them. Or they can go home and ask for a refund from their smuggler.
03:38pm 21/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5592 posts
Careful Phooks, you might trigger PP again.
03:49pm 21/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2859 posts
You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters).

Aboriginals are a single nation, right?


yeah ok so I guess you don't know what the kulin nation is. Shocking. Well not that shocking.

But look right wing nutters nationalism bad, aboriginal nationalism good. Keep it at 4th grade phooks.

"It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions."


No they can't be left wing, they think there is such a thing as national responsibility. Its like reading Stalin, Hilter and Goebbels all at the same time.
06:44pm 21/11/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3327 posts
lol
11:29pm 21/11/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16828 posts
Refugees and homo marriage is all well and good, but can anyone explain proposed tax cuts against this?

https://i.imgur.com/jWl3Ug2.png

I'm all for tax cuts, money is fun, but don't we have to pay for the debt at some time? Isn't this just Government spending dressed up as tax relief?
01:45pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23839 posts
I guess you would have to ask Anna the same question. When will the debt be paid. Governments are addicted to debt.
02:07pm 22/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21413 posts
Pretty sure debt only grew under campbell newman as well. And that was after he booted all those people out of jobs.
02:27pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23840 posts
Lol no pave do some reading bro
03:05pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3310 posts
^ironic for someone whose attitudes towards debt is 'debt is bad'
04:50pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3311 posts
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
04:51pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23841 posts
$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument.

So pitch me the alternative argument. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b). All that Beattie, Bligh, Palaszczuk waste... you know what happens when interest rates go up? Ourt cost of borrowing already up due to loss of AAA credit rating.

We have no hope of ever paying it back. NSW has no debt.

Hog: a few thoughts on federal govt debt:

1. Senate blocks budget cuts
2. NDIS massive impost
3. Gonski unfunded
4. Submarines are they thinking
5. Offshore detention thankfully shrinking due to Soverewign Borders.
6. Personal home should be part of pension means testing.

Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed. (Nor Turnbull's dumb personal tax cuts thought bubble, but the top tax rate definitely needs to be pushed out or reduced - to lose half your income after $180,00 is a joke). Fixing the Federal govt debt will be way easier than Qld repaying $81b! (because Feds have taxation powers)
04:55pm 22/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39336 posts

Politics aside (I don't think Labor or Liberal will make an appreciable difference to our debt) I agree that it's getting to scary levels.

What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b).
Last I looked (it has been a while) I thought Qld was doing OK with surpluses in the last couple budgets - (e.g., http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-13/queensland-budget-coal-royalties-up-$1.5b-myebo-curtis-pitt/8115154 which has ~$1b surplus as target for 2017 - maybe it is out of date but first thing I could find?)
Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed.
who are you and what have you done with infi


07:38pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40877 posts
i am all for proposed middle income tax cuts for myself and my family.

should be more of it!

07:53pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40878 posts
actually it would be nice to get another stimulus!
07:57pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23842 posts
who are you and what have you done with infi


To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund.

I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it.

Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous.
09:31pm 22/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39337 posts
To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund.
I have been thinking along similar lines recently too. I haven't thought the whole way through it but abolishing company tax in favour of slightly increased taxes elsewhere seems preferable to me. I am all about simplicity these days.
I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it.
. Wholeheartedly agree, not sure how big a deal it is in Aus but I'm sure it's a factor. But short of massive international cooperation on this issue the likes of which the world has never seen (presumably because it's actively fought against by entrenched moneyed interests).
Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous.
I guess the top rate doesn't bother me because it needs to be higher at the pointy end. I'd be interested in your suggested/preferred tax brackets though.
09:41pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23843 posts
30% up to $350k
40% after, maybe 35%

I like the US tax rates.
09:50pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2165 posts

$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument.

So pitch me the alternative argument. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b). All that Beattie, Bligh, Palaszczuk waste... you know what happens when interest rates go up? Ourt cost of borrowing already up due to loss of AAA credit rating.

We have no hope of ever paying it back. NSW has no debt.


Just have a housing boom and collect 4.5% on every million dollar s***box. Simple!

Then you can have some policies like this!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-20/nsw-government-announces-free-car-rego-for-toll-road-users/9168264

The greens $1 public transport policy is truly the crackpot thing though.
09:55pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40879 posts
starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous.


nah, its fine.

and im super interested in something like that for qld.

id quite happily not pay rego to use tolls. (now that my work is beyond a tolled road)
10:50pm 22/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39338 posts
Are the tollroads government owned in Qld ? I thought they were private enterprises. I'd be super unhappy if we were to start propping up those companies at the expense of taxpayer funded roads
11:50pm 22/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39339 posts
30% up to $350k
40% after, maybe 35%

I like the US tax rates.
you hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face

edit: btw this infographic from NYTimes on the proposed Republican tax cut bill is pretty well done. They will lead to an addition $1.4 trillion with a t dollars deficit according to projections. Maybe if they axed their biggest social welfare programme - the military - they could start reducing it.
11:52pm 22/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23844 posts

they are owned by Transurban

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-24/queensland-motorways-sells-for-7-billion-to-private-consortium/5408322

People thought Newman was the boogey man of privatisation when it was actually Labor all along

PS Labor sold of QR National too. And Energex retail.



you hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face


sure it is very doable with massive reductions to government spending. cut middle class welfare, tighten eligibility for other welfare, slash public service. so much waste. even worse in America. whole departments can be abolished and no one would notice.

in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt).
11:57pm 22/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3312 posts
Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely 


I am more and more convinced you are a troll account
12:04am 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3313 posts
I wonder if Trump came to Australia how long it would take for infi to suck him off
12:14am 23/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39340 posts
in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt).
Let me guess: the states should look after it?
12:20am 23/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11724 posts
I am more and more convinced you are a troll account
If so, he's been 'trolling' on qgl for about the same time as you've been alive
12:30am 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3314 posts
Hey that's great, maybe his generation can afford a house.

Probably not though. Because you know; taxes. Just like poor people, taxes are to blame for everything in infiland.

Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy
02:45am 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23845 posts
you are rambling, you sound like a generally disaffected whinger.

Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy


that is correct! companies buy business inputs (which are deductions). if something is not an allowable deduction it will then form part of the profit that must be distributed by dividends to shareholders, who then use it for consumption (holidays, houses, boats, hairdos, psychotherapy *cough*).

you seem partially intelligent but quite often do not understand basic concepts. f***en bananas... what a head.
09:28am 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3315 posts
Sigh here we go.

Keep attacking an imagined identity. For someone who hates identity politics you sure rely on it a lot.

consumption

kənˈsʌm(p)ʃ(ə)n/

noun

1.

the action of using up a resource.



Q: do businesses consume?
A: infi is stupid

See, at least with PP I can have arguements, albeit barbed, that differ on idealogical bases because I can tell he wants the world to change in some way. You however are so pants-on-head stupid that is not worth talking to you about even the most basic of concepts. You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends? Do you walk backwards too?

You advocate for poverty for your fellow man, you want military action against refugees and would harm our relations with strategic allies, you want tax cuts for only the richest. It would take years of formal education to fix your stupidity and years moreso to untwist your skewed, backwardsly-justified views.
10:28am 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23846 posts
You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends?


Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates. They rely on CONSUMPTION taxes. Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police.

Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity. Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits. I wonder why that is? It's because they don't consume goods (in economic terms you can either consume, invest or save).

Similarly, private investors get tax credits for all the taxed dividends they receive, because the only real taxpayer is a real person. This applies well with domestic companies and shareholders. Multinats need to pay their fair share before they send their profits of into the double dutch irish sandwich.

Good work on the dictionary thing, you almost won the internet.

I dont advocate povertry - I think the welfare has destroyed the sense of community and charity, and increased reliance on the government like a bunch of seagulls.
I dont agree with military action against refugees. I support a strong border force and repudiation of people smuggling which has killed so many people try to to enter out shores. We should leave the refugees convention because it is abused by organised people smugglers. Force must be used when people do not comply with these policies. Australina is in charge of its own borders, not the UN.
Dont even know what you mean re strategic allies.
I think the highest tax rate should be lower. I don't think it is fair for people to be paying half of their income to fund the state. Find another way. I don't think our role in life is to work to the have half of it stolen. Thaty is notr fair, people generally have a right to hold onto what is theirs.

You are very disaffected, you sound like other people owe you a living and enjoy having a whinge (well it is an Australian sport). I want to hear more about how you took some entrepeneurial financial risks and made a lot of money for yourself. Government should not be running our lives and gobbling aup our hard earned dollars. It should take a back seat and find ways to take less of our money.
10:46am 23/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21414 posts
Not going to lie, infi sounds like he knows what he is talking about regarding company tax thing and phooks is just triggering without fully understanding.
11:24am 23/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6531 posts
It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers. Generally all 3 in differing proportions depending on the company, industry, labour market conditions, price elasticity of products it produces, etc. The burden of any given tax often falls on a different entity than the entity with the legal liability to pay the tax.

Infi is right, companies don't pay tax - people do.

Phooks is spazzing out like he always does without even giving infi the benefit of the doubt and trying to actually engage with him.
12:36pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3316 posts
and here come's the 'carbon tax increased my electricity prices' crowd with more infinite wisdom

Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates


Yes they do, quite like that 'double dutch irish sandwich' you hate, this is why tax havens exist in the first place. it's also why us lowering our own corporate tax rate won't work like it did for Ireland (see; race to the bottom)

Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police


taxes are evil

Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity


All hail the source of all economic activity - companies. Individuals? Public sector? Education? International programs? Industry bodies? NFPs? No, it's companies. Not only are companies the one and only font of all economic activity, but the gracious providers of employment too. companies do no wrong really. oh and companies do NOT consume nor invest in their activities

Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits.


for the things they CONSUME. dear lord

companies with a turnover over 80k/year have to register for gst.

this means they charge 10% for tax on their goods and services

input tax credits are for G&S companies buy with GST included. because they already have gst through their own business.

does your company not earn above 80k/yr infi? or is that just what you get your cheap accountant to tell the evil tax man when you dodge tax?

the only real taxpayer is a real person


unless that person owns businesses, business which are completely separate legal entities to that person. legal entities that have to pay tax. but please tell us all about your wide investment portfolio oh dividend master

It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers


Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere. What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Lowering business taxes does not increase wages. You've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil because they hurt profits and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you, which is not the case for the majority of industries alongside existing market distortions like minimum wage (see; keeping people out of poverty) and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries and, oh i don't know, stops the end of the f*****g world due to human-caused climate change
01:36pm 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23847 posts
Some people wear their angry pants every morning. No point getting mad at facts.

Education, NFPs, NGOs don't pay tax either Phooks. But their employees do. Kind of reinforces the point the latter non human entities don't really pay (income) tax in the end. They pay a variety of other indirect taxes.

I'm going to blow your mind now: trusts don't pay tax either. The profits of a trust must be distributed and the beneficiaries pay the tax. I am sensing a theme here....
02:05pm 23/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6532 posts
Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere.


Tax burden, or tax incidence in economics jargon, is simply the concept that I explained earlier that the entity that bears the economic impact of a tax may not necessarily be the same entity that has the legal obligation to pay the tax. It really is just an economic concept used in both theory and application – there’s no politics behind it and it has nothing to do with “regressive austerity policies”.

Here’s a paper published by the Commonwealth Treasury modelling the welfare gain to labour and capital under a modelled decrease in the company tax rate of 1% (under the assumptions of this model ~2/3 goes to labour and ~1/3 goes to capital – different assumptions can give different results and the question is not settled in the literature). But notice how 0% of it goes to “companies”? Are you starting to understand the point yet?

If you aren’t, here’s a report by the Productivity Commission on the incidence of the tax and transfer system in Australia and how it distributes income across population and time. The paper itself isn’t overly important but I want to quote a bit that might help you understand the concept:

All taxes, regardless of whether they are levied on enterprises or individuals, are ultimately paid out of individual earnings from labour, capital or land (see discussion of economic incidence below).


This is not “right wing propaganda”, as I said earlier it is basic economics. It was first year curriculum stuff when I was in undergrad.

What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Taxes hurt profits, so you've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you which for those same reasons is not always the case and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries


Mate you’re off the f*****g deep end here. I don’t know how you inferred any of this from my post or what connection your brain made to make you think this was some sort of logical response.

For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you.
02:09pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3317 posts
There's no politics behind tax burden? Try the LNP platform for the last 20 years. I do appreciate your articulation and referencing of your points (links broken?) and I am keen to read more about it, but we're in the politics thread mate, pick a side.
02:15pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2861 posts
Its ok taggs. I broke him for you. You'll only get gibberish out of him from now on.

see look. phooks said this

Perhaps I can encourage you to check your own biases with a simple question.

"You suck d***!" is an insult. Why is that?


but then he also said this

I wonder if Trump came to Australia how long it would take for infi to suck him off


Why do you think sucking d*** is an insult phooks. How did it make you feel to use such a beyond the pale homophobic slur?

I trust you will self flagellate for the oppression gods to show how chastened you are that you have used your privilege to insult your enemy by suggesting he may be part of an oppressed minority (which is literally the only possible reason telling someone they suck d*** could be considered an insult).

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/QrTaCq.gif
There's no politics behind tax burden? Try the LNP platform for the last 20 years.


And the the Labor platform for the 13 years before that. Just sayin.
07:01pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3318 posts
Lol good effort, I'm glad you're taking the time to learn about minority issues. sadly Trump is not a representative of the male gender. 'You suck d***' implies sucking d***, of any kind, is bad. Sucking Donald Trump's d*** implies you love the right wing so much you would give Trump fellatio.
08:28pm 23/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39341 posts
id you know that companies don't pay GST?
I actually am starting to think companies should pay GST, not because of abstract "who is the consumer" issues, but just because I think it would be simpler to do the accounting and erase the jobs of many tax accountants who exist solely to track GST was paid on and how much they need to claim back.

Trying to deal with VAT here in the UK for a small business operating even around the EU is a paperwork pain in the ass. I don't bother claiming it back on small items.
Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police.
I don't know if I agree with them being inefficient / hard to police. In the UK and I believe most of Europe, income taxes are hugely automated - you don't file a tax return, it's all handled by your employer, and everything Just Works.

My big objection to consumption taxes is the haphazard way they're applied to different items. Again in my ongoing mission to rid the world of accountants I don't think there should be any exemptions; it should be on everything (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?).
08:33pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2862 posts
Lol good effort, I'm glad you're taking the time to learn about minority issues. sadly Trump is not a representative of the male gender. 'You suck d***' implies sucking d***, of any kind, is bad. Sucking Donald Trump's d*** implies you love the right wing so much you would give Trump fellatio.


Ah dude, Invite you to examine your own biases.

Why would loving the right wing imply that? and are you suggesting there was no value judgement in that implication if you choose to accept it?

It's bald faced hypocrisy phooks.

I've broken you, like vash and fpot and brool before you. the most vash can muster these days is the equivalent of 'i know you are you said you are'.

Your highfalutin talk was nothing more than signaling to the in group, dropped at the first sign of trouble. Exactly like I said it was at the start.

You told infi to suck d*** which you careful explained was a insult borne of unexamined prejudice against homosexuals.

You're a jack ass and I'm bored now.
08:41pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3319 posts
The tax system is progressive to try and remedy the inequalities in the economic system. Nobody earns a million dollars because they 'work harder'.

But government is evil and corrupt and beurocratic. Just think of all those hospitals, schools, the legal system oh and that road outside your house, just sitting there rubbing their collective hands together with your stolen tax money
08:51pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2863 posts
I rest my case

Nobody earns a million dollars because they 'work harder'.


Except virtually every home owner in sydney and melbourne. the 1950's called, it would like its definition of 'rich' back.
08:55pm 23/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39342 posts
For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you.
I would add, maybe try to make sure your posts aren't 80% hard sarcasm. I can't be bothered reading most of them because trying to parse the sarcasm bits out from the bits you mean takes too much effort
09:00pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3320 posts
^in a discussion of the progressive taxation system I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about earnings per year. I'll be more explicit for you in future.

PP you wouldn't know highfalutin talk if it hit you in the face. I've seen online communities so sensitive to prejudicial language you wouldn't believe. I've seen instructional sessions where using the word 'trigger' in trigger warning is not allowed because it triggers people with weapon-related PTSD, so you have to use 'content warnings'. I've seen the good, I've seen the bad. The -very- strictly enforced safe zones. The world that our children's children will be fighting as progressives for. I see it because I want to learn why people think and behave they do.

The difference between you and I though, is that I acknowledge I'm biased as f*** and I acknowledge I can be wrong, and work to fix it. I don't pretend I'm the perfect human nor work my logic backwards from my beliefs.
09:03pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2864 posts
I would add, maybe try to make sure your posts aren't 80% hard sarcasm. I can't be bothered reading most of them because trying to parse the sarcasm bits out from the bits you mean takes too much effort


Ahem. allow me to explain troggles.

what just happened was I pointed out that phooks had committed himself to the position that 'sucking d***' was a homophobic slur. He then, despite often and loudly condemning homophobia, used 'sucking d***' as insult.

Because he was caught in blatant and undeniable hypocrisy he attempted to run interference through a bunch of "see look I am progressive epitaphs" aimed at the conversation infi had just crushed him in.

I pointed out that the epitaphs were in fact epitaphs by showing that 1 million dollars is an unremarkable amount of money.

I apologise that the preceeding 89 words were required to get the context down to your level, but it probably explains your confusion over

(e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?)
The difference between you and I though, is that I acknowledge I'm biased as f*** and I acknowledge I can be wrong, and work to fix it. I don't pretend I'm the perfect human nor work my logic backwards from my beliefs.


lying makes baby jesus of the traditional family values cry phooks. why do you hate gay people so much.
09:09pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3321 posts
^Oh nah I assume he was talking about me being sarcastic. I'm sarcastic as f***
09:11pm 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23849 posts
I wouldn't want to be creepy I am not Joe Biden

Edit: I would love to shake The Donald's hand or even give him a warm hetero manly embrace.
09:12pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2865 posts
^Oh nah I assume he was talking about me being sarcastic. I'm sarcastic as f***


oh so people really do

earn a million dollars because they 'work harder'.
^in a discussion of the progressive taxation system I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about earnings per year. I'll be more explicit for you in future.
09:19pm 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23850 posts
I think it reinforces this insidious politics of envy when 49.5% tax is worn as a badge of pride by The Greens and Labor.

It's sad that higher income earners have to wear the burden of the government's inefficiency disproportionately. I expect the government would be forced to be far more efficient (or pointless programs removed) if taxation was flat.

Income taxes are complex due to the deductions and rebates and gaming of the system (not to mention the cash economy). in a perfect world GST would nott have exemptions (these were negotiated to ensure passage of the legislation in 1998). you only you need to think back to the previous sales tax which had multiple rates levied to see how complexity has reduced.
09:31pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2866 posts
*edit* you can read this trog there is no sarcasm at all im just legitimately point scoring against you */edit*

well certainly it is the case that a GST should be applied as broadly as possible.


This however

(e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?)


Is banal.

condoms don't have GST attached to them because the womyns contraceptive pill doesn't

Tampons do because soap and toilet paper do.

It isn't difficult. It isn't the patriarchy. one has medical implications and the other doesn't. its like totally arbitrary man, the pattern is impossible to spot.

In the UK it is particularly obscene to run the argument because tampons are in their current category because it *reduces* the VAT levied.

but you know I assume trog knew that because we are adding things to

For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you.


Just to make that leap high enough.

this

(e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?)


is exactly the same as

(e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and the womyns contraceptive pill don't?)
09:37pm 23/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39343 posts
Income taxes are complex due to the deductions and rebates and gaming of the system (not to mention the cash economy). in a perfect world GST would nott have exemptions (these were negotiated to ensure passage of the legislation in 1998). you only you need to think back to the previous sales tax which had multiple rates levied to see how complexity has reduced.
From talking to a small sample size of people here in the UK barely anyone seems to bother with deductions in most circumstances - because they don't have to "do their taxes" like we do in Aus, they just forget about it. Maybe my pool is biased (mostly academics and tech people).
It's sad that higher income earners have to wear the burden of the government's inefficiency disproportionately. I expect the government would be forced to be far more efficient (or pointless programs removed) if taxation was flat.
Yes but higher income earners get the benefit of disproportionate earnings.

Obviously I completely disagree with you on the matter of income tax brackets. I've been lucky to live a privileged life and have had moderate success professionally; I've been in a highish bracket most of my adult life and I do wear my higher tax rate as a badge of pride because it is my contribution to my country. The more one reaps the benefits, the more their contribution should be. That is the Australia I grew up in and the one I want to live in.

All that said, I CAN see raising the tax brackets as long as we add new ones with higher rates for the top earners. But if you think 50% is too much for people on $300k, I assume you'd baulk at the idea of ever-increasing percentages for people above that.

The kind of American-style economy you're advocating for I think is the worst possible outcome for anyone; we already tried the system of government where a few ultra-rich people make up an aristocracy that operates as a ruling class beyond almost any law. I know that is not what libertarians think will happen (if you even consider yourself one anymore!) but quite obviously it is in America. I don't know if Americans are organised enough to build unions to combat the rising aristocracy, but they sure as f*** are armed enough for violent revolution if the crumbs they're living on suddenly dry up.

I read this article the other day about what San Francisco has become. I've been going to San Francisco pretty regularly and I've seen it slowly degrade; it has always been one of my favourite cities in the world (I lived there for a year when I was a kid & have had family there for almost my whole life). But now it is a stark reminder of the poverty, the human degradation, the suffering, etc. I don't want to go there any more.
10:14pm 23/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39344 posts
infi: this image is for you for the next time welfare state comes up :D

http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/credit.png

(source)
10:16pm 23/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2867 posts
All that said, I CAN see raising the tax brackets as long as we add new ones with higher rates for the top earners. But if you think 50% is too much for people on $300k, I assume you'd baulk at the idea of ever-increasing percentages for people above that.


Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns?

I read this article the other day about what San Francisco has become. I've been going to San Francisco pretty regularly and I've seen it slowly degrade; it has always been one of my favourite cities in the world (I lived there for a year when I was a kid & have had family there for almost my whole life). But now it is a stark reminder of the poverty, the human degradation, the suffering, etc. I don't want to go there any more.


Remind me again which side of the political spectrum SF leans towards? If I recall every mayor for the last half century has been democratic. under a democratic president for the last 8 of 9 years.

You had a point. I'm sure of it.
10:24pm 23/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23851 posts
Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns?


the only justification is quite brazen - f*** you, we want it. Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force. Is our government really that much better for wealthy people that half of their income should go to fund it? Half of your energ ies goes to fund something which is not yours? It's an insult to one's liberty in my view - and gives rise to the distasteful offshoring industry.

It's quite lazy to expect others to pay for your lifestyle. The top income tax bracket pays overwhelmingly for everyone else in Australia.

I went to San Francisco 3 years ago and was mortified by what the tech industry had turned it into. An inaccessible bubble of smug. The heartland of Californian liberal utopia (obviously riddled with homeless mentally ill people). Nestled amongst multi-million dollar 2 bedroom apartments. The liberal billionaires didn't find a way to fix it... they just made it worse.

I am guessing trog's point was where is the government to fix all this? Alternatively where were all the families and charities? They have all gone due to the giant welfare food stamp state.

The koalas depicted in that cartoon are the people feeding 50s into pokies. I have no sympathy for them or their destiny.
10:38pm 23/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4071 posts
We have a state election this weekend so lets talk some real hard hitting politics for once...

Pornopete and Phooks are actually the same person.

/Discuss
11:50pm 23/11/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3328 posts
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." - Phooks

I'd say much of the tech industry is indeed built on top of a somewhat insidious exploitation of the cheapest labour possible mantra, linked to the globalisation of knowledge labour. Nothing illegal about it, although perhaps there is in Uber's recent employment law cases. Is it ethically and morally wrong? Perhaps so. Is it starting to distort micro societies in various negative ways? Most likely.

There's a healthy middle ground of centralism in this tax debate somewhere, surely...
12:38am 24/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39345 posts
Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force. Is our government really that much better for wealthy people that half of their income should go to fund it? Half of your energ ies goes to fund something which is not yours?
Well I get some direct benefit out of it. Education, healthcare, roads, water comes out of the tap when I turn it on, electricity is reliable so I can cool my beers, a justice system that discourages people from stealing my s***, a fire department that will turn up if I buy a Samsung phone, etc etc etc.

But the INDIRECT benefit I get is not trivial either. A population of health happy citizens that get the same benefits as I do is a big deal.
It's an insult to one's liberty in my view - and gives rise to the distasteful offshoring industry.
You make it sound like this is some sudden new state of affairs where people with guns have just started turning up to take your money.

It ignores the fact that the system we have has evolved over hundreds of years - people group together into societies and pool their resources for mutual benefit. Government exists as a way to shortcut all that tedious donating to individual organisations to create a basic framework for civilisation to happen.

I think the liberty argument is the absolutely poorest argument that can be made against taxes, because they ignore the simple fact that most of the great parts of our civilisation exist because of the great works done by the collective will of democratic governments working for their citizens.

I would much rather see arguments targeting specific examples where governments have exceeded the scope of their responsibilities without the willing consent of the citizens and in the spirit of the nation (I think the NSA is a great example of this, for example; in Australia the first thing that comes to mind is the stupid school chaplain's programme but maybe just because it enrages me beyond belief and stops me thinking about anything else).

You can't just throw your hands up in the air and say "but, liberty". Those who do can either only really be, by definition, either a) a libertarian extremist and support the (IMHO) totally untenable position that there should be no government and no taxes, or b) drawing some other arbitrary line in the sand saying "these are the things I'm happy to pay taxes for because obviously it makes sense for the government to take taxes for THESE specific things, but not THESE other things which are obviously too stupid for words for the government to take my money to pay for".

But after all this time having these same discussions with you about this topic, I still have no f*****g idea where your line in the sand is, because these conversations typically come down to "but, liberty" (unless it's about gay marriage :).
01:20am 24/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5593 posts
Libertarians just dont understand that most of their wealth is provided from society at large, not entirely from their 'hard work' or 'innovation'. You're taxed for over half your income because the public have provided your ability to gain this amount of wealth, via the taxpayer funding technology, the land or infrastructure you use in which to gain said wealth. Not to mention the amount of wealth that has been extracted from people you employ.

https://i.imgur.com/GNU0kW7.jpg
02:49am 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2868 posts
Libertarians just dont understand that most of their wealth is provided from society at large, not entirely from their 'hard work' or 'innovation'.


Yes "most" of the reason bill gates has $40 billion is because you chuck in $300 a year for road maintenance. He literally couldn't have done it without your contribution. Oh wait doesn't he chuck in at least $600 a year?

Why don't you have a billion dollars vash? most of his wealth came from society and you have half his expenses.

But after all this time having these same discussions with you about this topic, I still have no f*****g idea where your line in the sand is, because these conversations typically come down to "but, liberty" (unless it's about gay marriage :).


Well given this

Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed. (Nor Turnbull's dumb personal tax cuts thought bubble, but the top tax rate definitely needs to be pushed out or reduced - to lose half your income after $180,00 is a joke). Fixing the Federal govt debt will be way easier than Qld repaying $81b! (because Feds have taxation powers)


and this

Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns?


and this

the only justification is quite brazen - f*** you, we want it. Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force.


I'd say the "line" is somewhere around an income tax of greater than 50%.

And the "liberty" argument is that it is an impermissible intrusion into a persons personal liberty to forcefully take more than that.

Just spit ballin here. See what you do is you read a few posts, and this is the important bit, keep the meaning of more than one of the posts in your head, and then think about what they mean taken together.
07:10am 24/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7761 posts
omg racist Japan

08:24am 24/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3322 posts
Real hard hitting journalism slaps. No wonder your world view is so f***ed. Hey what's actually going on with those dirty f***en illegals anyway?

10:20am 24/11/17 Permalink
jum
Queensland
701 posts
ah yes..."dog whistle politics"...for when you want to call something racist but can't actually identify anything racist about it, so you insist that it is low key SECRET racism

and did you really just link to rationalwiki? thats pretty embarrassing. i'll admit regular wikipedia isn't perfect (amongst its biggest faults i would say are a reliance on 'trusted' sources and moderators that have more power than they should) but rationalwiki doesn't remedy any of those faults. it is conservapedia-tier nonsense with a mostly unsourced, biased pov and it seems like half their articles are about dumb youtube drama and ecelebs. wow so rational.
02:10pm 24/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26099 posts
When people call asylum seekers illegals, economic refugees, country shoppers and queue jumpers what they actually mean is dirty brown people we don't like stay out of my country and die in yours. When said people are in their beer halls chatting with their brethren they're overt about it, but fortunately society has progressed to the point where to engage in the latter style of language is generally frowned upon in public discourse. This is what dog whistle politics/racism is and it is extremely common and to deny it exists is kind of like denying racism itself exists, which seems to be a pretty common thread among the alt-right these days.
02:23pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2869 posts
Oh look fpot calling a general group of people racist. again.

Even better if you deny he has special knowledge which he cannot possibly have (ie knowledge of the internal motivation of someone speaking about illegals) you're denying racism exists.

that was was another worldbeater fpot. Nailed it buddy.

is this the part where someone has to be nice to you until you stop being f*****g stupid?
06:12pm 24/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
865 posts
All this complaining about not being able to afford a house. You can afford a house, if you make the same sacrifices and choices that others did.

The issue has been around a long time. It's just very topical right now.

In the suburb where I grew up, I could not afford to buy my first property. So I had to MOVE to a location where I could afford to buy. I could have easily rented a unit in wankerville in the heart of the city, and spent years taking selfies around the world, but I did not. I worked during the day, studied at night. I got up and went to work, and I worked hard and earned a reputation and made choices that increased the income. I made lots of mistakes, but I made lots of sacrifices. Now, things are very good.

In the area my parents grew up, they could not afford to buy, they had to go to a cheaper area.

This 'expansion' can be traced back the cave times.

It's a common theme. It's the opposite of "Champagne taste on a beer income".

I drive a car that is rough ratio of like

1:40

Vehicle : Equity value

For example, if my car was worth 10 k, equity value is 400 k

The equity value is increasing, the car is devaluing. This is also a simple example of sacrifice. There are many sacrifices, you would be surprised if I listed them. However some would be shocked by what cab be achieved by responsible choices. The whole thing gets coined as 'avocado on toast' and I have to admit, I do eat avocado on food in fancy little cafes.. but the difference is.. I'm now mid 40's and can afford it. When I was 20 it was hot chips and f'n gravy.

I don't think my method/concept is embraced by enough people. We have a culture of 'keeping up with the Jones'. I know people in their 40's and 50's who have ever owned a house, and have no equity, and they had every opportunity I did, they just made poor choices. They might love their choices, but I would consider their choices 'poor', and they have no-one else to blame except themselves. Person I'm thinking of still takes out a personal loan to take wife and kids on family holiday. When I asking him why he can't save up for it instead, he has 'reasons'. My logic is.. don't go on a holiday that requires a personal loan. Camp in the backyard that your renting.

I'm mid 40's and purchased my first brand new car last year. I just drove home from visiting a vacated investment property (instead of watching net-flicks). Tonight for dinner will be reheated spag boll.

Find a town where there is work for you, move there, find something ugly enough there that will mate with you, maybe buy there. Get into market. In 10 years you will have more options. Stop excuses, find solutions. make sacrifices. You only have one crack at this, so... it's all up to you, put in the effort. Start saving, and save more. Get 1000 up, put in ING direct term deposit. Nice simple way to start.

Calories in - calories out.
Funds in - funds out.

You choose.
06:56pm 24/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7762 posts
mmm racisty racism makes me salty

Im wif youse Phooksy. F*** dem whiteys, save teh Browns!



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 19:33:02 24/Nov/17
07:29pm 24/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39347 posts
Get 1000 up, put in ING direct term deposit. Nice simple way to start.
ING website says:

"Personal Term Deposit: The minimum opening deposit is $10,000 and is set for the term."

So imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude and then maybe you'll agree it's not just about how many avocados one eats
07:43pm 24/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7763 posts
omg disgusting! I woodn't wipe my tanned multiracial arse with these shirts!!!

07:53pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2870 posts
So imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude and then maybe you'll agree it's not just about how many avocados one eats


there is GST on a Mercedes S class but there isn't on a rockmelon. How f*****g arbitrary is that s***.
07:55pm 24/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
867 posts
ING did do $1000.. that might be dated but the rest applies. As usual this guy quotes a line to contest in detail, and rubbishes the theme.

Yes it is still about the avocado concept, but it applies to lots of sacrifices, as I took the effort to translate for those who could not (or who choose to refuse to) understand the analogy.
08:27pm 24/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
868 posts
Here i'll simplify it:

All this complaining about not being able to afford a house. You can afford a house, if you make the same sacrifices and choices that others did.

I don't waste money on flashy toys and do selfies of expensive holidays.

Been driving 2nd hand cars for 20+ years.

When I was 20 it was hot chips and f'n gravy.

Camp in the backyard that your renting.

Find solutions. make sacrifices.

Calories in - calories out

Funds in - funds out

You choose.
08:34pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2871 posts
omg disgusting! I woodn't wipe my tanned multiracial arse with these shirts!!!


Oh slaps. You just gettin started.

here is my favorite from the week.

Trump was like charles manson because reasons

if you disagree with me you are basically a more racist more sexist more islamophobic Hitler.

See if I call you racist I win.
08:45pm 24/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39348 posts
ING did do $1000.. that might be dated but the rest applies.
does it? what were interest rates when your parents bought a house? what impact did that have on pricing? what was the population? There are myriad factors that you gloss over in your attempt to blame the difficulty of buying a house on "the youth today"
As usual this guy quotes a line to contest in detail, and rubbishes the theme.
haha I think that's the first time I've been accused of not writing enough in response to something.You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post, and it turned out to be wrong by a factor of 10. Does that not give you pause?
08:49pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2872 posts
what were interest rates when your parents bought a house?


Probably like 18%

imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude


Interest rates would be about the single worst example of a barrier to entry to the market you could choose in the current climate.

But lets get those condescending c*** pants out.

*trog reading aid*Hey look there is no sarcasm at all in that post at all you're just a d*** */trog reading aid*
08:52pm 24/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26103 posts
Here, let me shorten it a bit more for you tdog.

Bootstraps
09:01pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2873 posts
I think you misspelt racist fpot.
09:02pm 24/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
869 posts
haha I think that's the first time I've been accused of not writing enough in response to something.You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post, and it turned out to be wrong by a factor of 10. Does that not give you pause?


It's just dated. You are arguing about the amount to start a savings account, it's pretty much insignificant. The point is, save.

Also, it's not just "on the youth today". As explained it applies to peers who also made their own choices. It also applied to cave men who made their own choices.

Also, you state that "You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post" that is also false. Do I need to list the facts out for you? Lets just accept that you made a clear mistake again in targeting the individual rather than arguing the concept.

You are purposely looking to find a small point to argue on rather than accept, agree, or discuss the general theory.

We agreed recently that the disadvantaged citizens are the ones to be most disadvantaged by excessive immigration, and are ALSO the ones to most likely support the increased introduction of migrants.

I think we can agree that for most people who live in Australia, the opportunity is there if choices are made. Also, if people want to sit around dreaming up excuses, then all the more for those who are willing to work for it. Good on them, they do not deserve the hatred from those who did not try hard enough.
10:19pm 24/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39349 posts
It's just dated. You are arguing about the amount to start a savings account, it's pretty much insignificant. The point is, save.
The point IS, the costs of buying a house (like the costs of opening a term deposit) have gone up quite a bit.
Also, you state that "You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post" that is also false. Do I need to list the facts out for you? Lets just accept that you made a clear mistake again in targeting the individual rather than arguing the concept.
You wrote a bunch of anecdotes. Your "concept" is boring - "save money and you too can be a home owner". That isn't what people are upset about and, like avocados, is a strawman that misses the point entirely.
We agreed recently that the disadvantaged citizens are the ones to be most disadvantaged by excessive immigration, and are ALSO the ones to most likely support the increased introduction of migrants.
Did we? I wrote a long series of posts explaining my point of view; you failed to address a single point. Which is why I'm less inclined to engage with you on this topic.
You are purposely looking to find a small point to argue on rather than accept, agree, or discuss the general theory.
I'm not looking for anything; I'm pointing out the blindingly huge blind spot in your premise: you're assuming things that are not true, like, it's so easy to open a term deposit account and start saving. It's 10x harder than you assumed just to do that, and I agree that's a good first step! How much harder is it to save for a house deposit than you think now in an average property on the east coast of Australia compared to even 10 years ago? How much farther out of the city do you think people have to live before they can buy a house they can afford with the money they do have? How many avocados do you think they have to skip before they can qualify for a loan?

The "general theory" you're espousing is "you need to save & make sacrifices to buy a house". Indeed. I agree with that statement. I don't agree with the tacked-on rider that is "all the people who can't buy a house they want are simply not following my simple guide to life!"
11:28pm 24/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2874 posts
I'm pointing out the blindingly huge blind spot in your premise: you're assuming things that are not true, like, it's so easy to open a term deposit account and start saving It's 10x harder than you assumed just to do that


Bankwest offer a $1000 dollar term deposit. ING direct offer a saving maximiser product which has no minimum deposit.

In fact if you google 'term deposit' you can find several $1000 minimum term deposits.

so actually, it is exactly true you can start saving with $1000 if you want to save with a term deposit arrangement.

MMMM comfy comfy pants.

anytime you want to drop idiotic points when discussing home affordability while hectoring people about idiotic points about home affordability don't feel like you have to run it by me.
11:51pm 24/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
870 posts
I didn't say "all". It's also false to add absolutes to your interpretation of what I explained. If you argument was rational you would not need to do this.

I did indicate the option to "move" at least once, so again, the integrity of your argument against my concept is deteriorating.

Want to work in the city and live in the city? Seems 'entitled' to me. I'd like to have it all too, but I can't so I make choices and sacrifices.

When we consider the four quadrants of "willing and able" it is likely that those who are very willing can shift into 'able'. The unwilling.. well they are a funny lot... They tend to lay blame rather than take responsibility, and are harder to assist. Some may become very willing and achieve their goals. Good on them.

It is about choices. Not fate, religion, karma, pyramids, luck, voodoo. Stacks of willingness can conquer inability.

Do I need to find a job in a rural town on seek or indeed, and find the payrate, AND then find the property prices in that town to prove my point? You know it's true. There are jobs in s***** towns, and good towns that they can't fill, and real-estate in some of these places might appreciate slower, but it tends to still appreciate enough to make it worthwhile.

You also know, many people have way too much debt. They are living above their means, they made that choice? They wanted the new 300k house on the s***** 200k land., and they wanted the 50k car to park on the fresh driveway. and they need their avocados, and netflix, and foxtel, and ipads and iphones, and all the other s*** they can't really afford.

I don't own a clothes drier. Have not had one for 25 years.

When I was 17 I skipped going to see Pink Floyd cause the ticket was $70. I couldn't afford it. Avocados.
12:55am 25/11/17 Permalink
taggs
6534 posts
what were interest rates when your parents bought a house?



Probably like 18%


To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation. It's a baby boomer standard to say (nominal) interest rates were 20%+ in the late 80s before the 90/91 recession but inflation was a few % points behind. Real interest rates take inflation into account inflation: [1+i=(i+r)(1+pi) where i = nominal, r = real and pi = inflation, known as Fisher equation] as inflation erodes the real value of debt. Real interest rates are remarkably stable over the decades relative to other financial variables.

That's one of my bugbears when baby boomers roll that one out.

Edit: read some more posts above...

Not that anyone gives a s*** but my stupid opinion is that the housing affordability issue is a combination of regulation and demographics in Sydney. Australia, particularly NSW has the most retardedly restrictive and costly planning systems in the developed world. It literally costs millions of dollars to have a planning approval even considered by the department (for a major project), let alone what arbitrary and ridiculous conditions they put on you for... reasons?. I know from first hand experience having delivered major projects in the state. Planning is not the only regulatory issue, it impacts nearly every cost line of a major D&C contractor way beyond the social benefit in my opinion but others may have different views. Combine that with demand increasing constantly due to population growth both organic and immigration and (internal and external, yes net internal emigration last few years but not for decade before NSW had inter/intrastate immigration iirc) and almost no investment in public transport for about 15 years prior to O'Farrell and you get massive house price increases and NIMBYism++

There's no easy fix, it's going to suck for a while.

Edit2:

Want to work in the city and live in the city? Seems 'entitled' to me.


Yeah I get that attitude to a certain extent. Though personally I had to move to Sydney cause the work I did just dried up in Brisbane. I really wish I could do my job literally anywhere but Melbourne or Syd but it's just not possible in the current market.

Yes I could have picked a different career and yes I can always start a new one but that sort of view is a bit out of reality for a large chunk of the population. Not all of it as evidenced by the net emigration from Syd over the last few years though. It would be sick to be tradey and be able to pick up and move and know I'd be able to find work!
02:54am 25/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39350 posts
Yup. I think SF is worse though but from what (tiny) little I know about Sydney it ain't much better.

The public transport thing I think is the biggest issue. I've thought that for a long time but living in the UK has really hammered it in. I know people that live 100km outside of London and still commute in on a fast train in like 30 minutes. Of course not everyone can do it in that sort of time but still many people choose to do so.

I would love to see more high speed rail linking some of the towns close to the capital cities with strong incentive for businesses to relocate or open satellite offices. Australia's problem is a huge country with only a small handful of actual "big cities" that people want to live in :(
03:18am 25/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39351 posts
You also know, many people have way too much debt. They are living above their means, they made that choice? They wanted the new 300k house on the s***** 200k land., and they wanted the 50k car to park on the fresh driveway. and they need their avocados, and netflix, and foxtel, and ipads and iphones, and all the other s*** they can't really afford.
the youths today are worst of all the youths!
I don't own a clothes drier. Have not had one for 25 years.
I've not owned or used one in Qld for as long as I can remember but it's because I'm a green hippy that thinks noone should use them in Qld

You're just saying the same thing: "I did this 25 years ago so people today should be able to do the same". I don't disagree people who want to buy houses should save and think carefully about where they want to live. I just think it's a bit hand-wavingly insulting and elitist telling people to buy a house an hour out of the city or in some "s***** town" because it's all they can afford - because of an unprecedented boom in housing prices at least partially caused by record low period of record low interest rates, etc, etc - and to abandon or hamstring their career to do so, so they can try to live the kind of life you were fortunate and privileged enough to be able to through circumstances of the times (and, yes, maybe even your sacrifices).

FWIW I would love to see more people move to our country towns. But I think to make that feasible we need to connect them better and stop treating them like second class citizens and try to make them the kinds of places people feel like they can live without being so terribly isolated. I certainly suspect I don't disagree with you as much as the other people here do when it comes to property prices.
03:18am 25/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40888 posts
i used term deposits to save for my house!

they worked awesomely.
07:43am 25/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2875 posts
To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation.


Thank you for pointing that out, I'll go do some reading. The point was more a) todays interest rates while maybe not as extreme as the 80's nominal rates suggest are still more competitive and so do not present the main barrier to entry to the market; and b) taking nmag to task over the value required to open a term deposit, while suggesting interest rates were more favorable in the past seems fairly d***ish to me.

I don't pretend to understand the full picture of why housing affordability is the way it is though your comments about planning regulation are interesting. I note where I live at the moment they are throwing up 7 story apartment buildings like its going out of fashion, but the price off the plan seems remarkably consistent. there just seems to be a bottomless appetite for these kinds of dwellings, though I have heard that in melbourne many of the new apartments sit empty.

FWIW I agree the skipping the avocado in the current climate is a bit like pissing on a bush fire, but the underlying point isn't invalid as a result. just to give an example of all the 'privilege' my parents enjoyed, they built their first house on the sunshine coast with their own two hands, my mum while she was pregnant with me. We lived in a caravan on the site for the first two years of my life. Dad was concerned with money in a way people simply are not these days, for example actively making sure we used a little electricity as possible.

it took mum and dad 15 years of building up the family business (which started from nothing) to be able to afford a place in Brisbane.

It would be disingenuous to suggest we were ever in poverty, and it is true new home owners face different challenges, but to suggest they cruised on wave of privilege to home ownership is nothing short of outrageous.

And I might add, coming from someone who is by any reasonable definition privileged.
08:38am 25/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40889 posts
just voted, in and out with zero delay.

feels good.

one nation last feels even better.
09:56am 25/11/17 Permalink
Reverend
Gold Coast, Queensland
2137 posts

here Here ... Spook I always put one red neck last , labor to win its going to be another 10 years before people forgive the LNP for what they did when the little asshat was premier.
10:47am 25/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
871 posts
It's not that I was privileged Trog. Myself and most friends first purchased around 15 years ago. I have a few friends who never purchased, are in their mid forties and have very little to show for the last 25 years of career. They made their choices. You keep bringing this back to me slandering the 'youth of today' or some s***. These differences apply to all generations. People make choices.

One friend purchased old residential on good block in Silverwater. It was and is a very good growth area and investment. He and his wife eventually decided to move to Perth to be near her family. They chose to sell a property in a high growth area, and then buy in a minerals reliant market during the Chinese slow down in demand. They did this during a rental crisis in Sydney which saw rents shoot high. I thought it was stupid, but they chose to do that.

They could have leased out the "high growth area" and paid rent in Perth for years.

Some friends looked at what they (we too) could afford in Sydney, 30 year old houses, and decided to move well out of Sydney and do a huge commute so that they lived in a property that was only 10 years old. Well.... I think the ratio of structure value to land value is important. I renovated the 30 year old myself. We had old timber kitchen, and slate floors from 70's. They had granite bench tops and floating timber floors. Over the 20 years what happened? We were very conservative with the first purchase, while some of them went in way over their heads. So I guess in your concept of being close to the city. We chose a really s***** structure (sacrifices) near the city (avocados), and they chose a nice structure (Avocados) in a town outside the city (sacrifices). We all made choices. We don't have cable TV or Netflix, these guys have Foxtel with the full package and Netflix. They have cars double the cost of ours. They have 4 times the number of overseas holidays. They are loading up on avocados, they are going to overdose on them. It's not about the youth of today.. it applies to all generations.

I understand it is harder now, but entering the market may require living in a property of far lesser value than mum and dad's or the house/unit they currently rent. That concept has applied for generations.

Things have changed recently for first home buyers. On one hand the Chinese have backed off out of the market, however on the other hand the banks are making it harder for people to lend more money than they can really afford.

My FB feed typically has selfies of renters I know skiing in Japan, and lounging on cruise ships, standing in front of brand new 50k-70k cars. Historically I've taken more than half my leave over the years to work on renovations because it's cheaper for me to do myself than higher the trades. Over the next month I'll be spending most leave and weekends prepping a vacant property to boost it's sale/rent value. Friends will be lounging on 3k lounges watching foxtel IQ planning next trip to Bali / New Zealand in their rental, complaining the market is impossible to get into, while signing up for more credit cards to max out, sipping on a latte from they 1k coffee machine, on their granite bench top in woop woop, putting bets on centre-bet and TAB.

I have all the respect in the world for people who save hard, do it hard, and finally break through into the market. I know the sacrifices they made and make. Giving up the avocados is tough.
11:13am 25/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4072 posts
I don't understand why the entire state has to vote on who is going to run Brisbane for the next few years.
11:16am 25/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21421 posts


here Here ... Spook I always put one red neck last , labor to win its going to be another 10 years before people forgive the LNP for what they did when the little asshat was premier.


Tim nichols is so fake when he is trying to be a nice guy.

He needs to tone down the fake smile.
11:19am 25/11/17 Permalink
funky
Canada
1911 posts
i too got a healthy dose of satisfaction by putting one nation last, but I did my vote earlier in the week so I would not be interrupted during the ashes!

01:28pm 25/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7764 posts
Labor first, independent second, Nicolls the karnt third, fake greens last.
01:48pm 25/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21422 posts
Exit poll says 0.9% swing to labour
06:58pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4636 posts
Nine predicts Labor win

ALP 0, LNP 0, In Doubt 93
07:14pm 25/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39353 posts
To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation. It's a baby boomer standard to say (nominal) interest rates were 20%+ in the late 80s before the 90/91 recession but inflation was a few % points behind. Real interest rates take inflation into account inflation: [1+i=(i+r)(1+pi) where i = nominal, r = real and pi = inflation, known as Fisher equation] as inflation erodes the real value of debt. Real interest rates are remarkably stable over the decades relative to other financial variables.
Interesting! Never heard that before. From a quick look though it is still fairly variable although I take your point about stability when people are throwing higher percentage figures from the days of yore around.

I do wonder though what psychological impact the "fake" interest rate figure has though?
07:56pm 25/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39354 posts
It's not that I was privileged Trog. Myself and most friends first purchased around 15 years ago.
Sorry to be clear, I didn't mean privileged in the silver spoon Trump sense; I just meant in the circumstances in which you were able to buy. 15 years ago it was a totally different world for property in Australia. And I don't say it negatively; it's just the luck of the draw. And the youths (and as you point out, people like me who are older & just have never bought) just need to suck that aspect of it up and realise that it's a new world and buying a house for $100k like our parents did is simply never going to happen again in a capital city.
My FB feed typically has selfies of renters I know skiing in Japan, and lounging on cruise ships, standing in front of brand new 50k-70k cars.
I agree buying cars is dumb, but buying experiences is priceless. I am sad you missed out on Pink Floyd when you had the chance to see them. My olde timey anecdote is I spent money I couldn't really afford going to see Michael Jackson when I was ~19 - I've never even been a big MJ fan. I just knew I might not ever get the chance to see him perform again. And sure that ticket money could have been spent on something but I'm glad I had the opportunity. I don't want to be on my deathbed living in a giant empty house full of all the opportunities I didn't take. I think it's simply awesome that people today have the luxury and the lifestyle to explore and do fun things. It is the John Adams quote that gives me most of my socialist-esque leanings and inspires me personally to be the best capitalist I can be: "I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce, and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry, and Porcelaine."
08:03pm 25/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11728 posts
Phooks, when you're getting the smaqdown from both infi and especially taggs, it's really time to reconsider. I understand your youthful exuberance, but so much of what you say is unsubstantiated nonsense. Please check yourself before you wreck yourself (further).
09:36pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5595 posts
Owning a house isn't the end all be all of having made it.
Nor is being wealthy or having a high paying career. Happiness > All materialism.

Another problem with Capitalism is that it places huge importance on Materialism. That just leads to an unfulfilled life as you try to out do your neighbors/friends/peers.

Break free from that mindset and you'll be happier. Personally i'd rather sacrifice a big house and nice vehicle, for experiences, good food & friends along with a minimalist lifestyle.
10:05pm 25/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23852 posts
then dont complain about the price of property!
10:08pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5596 posts
Infi has never smacked anyone down Hardware:)

Also, i dont think ive ever complained about the price of property. It's just unfortunate that it's creating excessive wealth for people who contribute nothing to society. Another Capitalism problem.
10:15pm 25/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23853 posts
no doubt vash will be living in a sharehouse on the pension when he is 65 but he had experiences
10:19pm 25/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26108 posts
no doubt vash will be living in a sharehouse on the pension when he is 65 but he had experiences


I'm sitting here trying to picture the mindset required to write the above with the intention of it being an insult and I can't do it. Let's just say someone did have a life full of travelling (or whatever someone considers experiences) and ends up living off the pension in a sharehouse, but they're perfectly okay with it. Please explain how that is a bad thing.
10:31pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5597 posts
Infi focusing on the Materialism. Proved my point though.
Because surely thats the only way you end up if you dont own property.
10:32pm 25/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23854 posts
hey if u want to live alone in a share house all power to you. if you dont value having a family and providing for your family then feel free to accuse everyone else of being materialistic.
10:47pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5598 posts
Exactly how does your thought process lead you to think that being anti materialist, and that owning a home isnt required, leads to a life alone in a sharehouse, without a family?
11:02pm 25/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23855 posts
do you plan to own a home. is that part of your life goals?

do you plan to get married and have a family? is that part of your life goals?

I am genuinely interested in your life strategy.
11:22pm 25/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7765 posts
its ok to complain about over priced property because its an economy f*****g Ponzi scheme that corrupts absolutely
11:51pm 25/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5599 posts
I own a property. But i'll be selling it soon and i probably wont buy another.
Purchased it when i was much younger & thought that was the thing to do.

I plan to have a life partner. marriage is irrelevant. No children. Ultimately i'd like to live on rural land as part of a shared community with self sustained energy & food production.
11:55pm 25/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11729 posts
Yeah, i largely agree with Nmag. The stories my grandparents (both sides) and my parents tell of how they had to sacrifice and in what way to be able to afford a basic, average home I took on, applied to myself and bought my first house at 22.

It can be done if you want to. Nmag's sentiment and story is right, and is a common story for most homeowners. Some Fat Bastard had a similar story from back in the 80s when apparently houses could be had for 'cheap' -- but the impact you required to have to ensure you could afford that house hasn't changed in recipe.

Yes, I'm probably not going to have paid off my house by 42 like my father did - but at very worst i'll be going into retirement owning outright a large family home in what some people are starting to call an 'inner suburb'.

Yes, i also agree that houses are too expensive (well, the land is anyway) and that's due to about 14 different factors, including immigration (chiefly poms and kiwis).

But my question remains: if houses used to be so cheap, then why did nearly everyone we knew growing up have such ordinary homes? (hint: houses were cheap because discretionary spend was smaller due to cars costing the equivalent of $80k just for a holden and landline phone bills of equiv. of $200 a month).
08:17am 26/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
872 posts
It's the old "AC" concept again...

Recurring costs of throwing (what is perceived by the deluded to be) 'disposable income' at luxury lifestyle = Avocado Choices (AC).

http://media.mercola.com/assets/images/foodfacts/avocado-nutrition-facts.jpg

It's Sunday morning, so instead of driving down to the local car wash and getting a double latte with smashed avocado on toast, while some 457's detail my car and the fleet of local BMW/Volvo SUV's... I'll put the kettle on for a cup of tea, and wash the wife's and my modest cars myself, and then load up her car with some tools, and head over to the rental to see what I can do, to tidy it up till my motivation starts to expire.
09:19am 26/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2166 posts
Running 2 cars isn't living modestly.
10:58am 26/11/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26112 posts
Today the President of the United States endorsed a website named MagaPill, a crackpot conspiracy website which promotes things such as pizzagate, Las Vegas shooter false flag conspiracies, spirit cooking, organ harvesting, weaponised forced vaccinations and earthquake machines.

https://i.imgur.com/WiNEzTo.png
02:14pm 26/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
873 posts
Running 2 cars isn't living modestly.


It says "modest cars".
09:30pm 26/11/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40895 posts
lolz ignore redhat, hes out of touch with real australia
09:53pm 26/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39355 posts
But my question remains: if houses used to be so cheap, then why did nearly everyone we knew growing up have such ordinary homes? (hint: houses were cheap because discretionary spend was smaller due to cars costing the equivalent of $80k just for a holden and landline phone bills of equiv. of $200 a month).
Because people used to have kids when they were in their early twenties and less financially secure (from a quick look, median age in Australia has gone up 5 years in the last ~40 years)? Because there was far less population pressure and more houses available for first time home buyers so people bought earlier to start their families much earlier?

Dunno about the cars costing the equivalent of $80k thing. As a result of this conversation I checked my parents first purchase (house in Ashgrove when I was one or two years old); they paid I thnk $40k for it at the time, which is apparently $100k today, according to the RBA's inflation calculator (although taggs might be able to point out if that is OK to use for property, because it refers to a representative ‘basket of goods and services’). How did you derive the 80k figure?
09:56pm 26/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5600 posts
So happy about the QLD One nation result.
Hanson finally got a good dose of reality.

Apparently those who claimed there's a big right wing wave going on world wide were incredibly wrong.
10:12pm 26/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39356 posts
So happy about the QLD One nation result.
Hanson finally got a good dose of reality.

Apparently those who claimed there's a big right wing wave going on world wide were incredibly wrong.
are you not concerned they got more votes than the greens?
10:52pm 26/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5601 posts
No. QLD is the texas of Aus after all.
I expected the One Nation vote to be much higher.
10:54pm 26/11/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7766 posts
^ erm Krazy Katter party has won two seats
12:51am 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2876 posts
Ultimately i'd like to live on rural land as part of a shared community with self sustained energy & food production.


The year is 2035, vashs daughter breaks her silence.


Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right. It's only preference deals that are keeping them out.

To get that in perspective a national swing of 5.7% was called a landslide for Kevin Rudd.
07:32am 27/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5602 posts
Cute PP. Except i said i dont want kids ;)

Here we are with another Labor Government. That right wing wave coming anytime soon?
09:23am 27/11/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16830 posts
Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right.

We don't have good numbers yet, or at least I couldn't find them. I don't think there is a broad swing to right-wing politics in QLD.

Looks mostly like a normal, mild, 2nd-term swing against the Government with PHON and KAP eating into the conservative base. The Greater Brisbane area saw swings generally to the ALP.

Edit: Yeh looks like it, I don't see a huge swing to the right in this result, unless I'm missing something?

https://i.imgur.com/JnSkwXT.png
11:20am 27/11/17 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5339 posts
Agreed Hog that is a pretty good interpretation. If you subtrack the swing away from LNP from the swing towards One Nation then its a very mild swing up for them.
04:03pm 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2877 posts
so you see the orange bar which is the only positive swing in the state greater than1.5% to the far right party?

Again to get that in perspective. In 2012 an 8.1% swing to the LNP nearly removed the ALP from parliament entirely. in 2015 a 10.5% swing to labor won them government.

a positive 12.8% swing is huge dude.

one nation had a primary vote of 0.1% in 2012 and 0.9% at the last election they now have a primary vote of 13.7% and are the third largest party in by primary vote in the state. It hasn't won them many seats, but given their starting position that is not that surprising.

I'd say that's worth a raised eyebrow.
07:01pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2167 posts
The PUP votes had to go somewhere.
07:10pm 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2878 posts
seems uncontroversial that one nation sits to the right of pup. that would mean a swing rightwards.
07:20pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5603 posts
Good point there Redhat. Palmer's vote in 2013 was 11%.

You wouldn't see Palmer voters go for the major parties nor the Greens.
So yeah, this right wing wave sure has fizzled out.
07:29pm 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2879 posts
PUP held 5.1% of the primary vote in the last election. It isn't possible for PUP to explain what happened.

And considering PUP was advocating flying refugees from malaysia to australia instead of mandatory detention, I seriously doubt most PUP voters went to the immigration has to be stopped party.
07:37pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5604 posts
Most people voting for One Nation have very little knowledge of their policy platform, they mostly chant on about how 'genuine' Hanson is, which is total bollocks really.
Same kind of reason people chose PUP i'd guess, or because they were the only major alternative other than Lib/lab/greens.

Let's be honest here, how many Australians would check a political party's policy platform before making an informed voting decision?
07:46pm 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2880 posts
I seriously don't understand how you developed this view of yourself vash.

the unwashed masses just vote for genuineness (to the point they ignore a central policy position). yeah ok. I take it that analysis doesn't apply to you, because you vote green (lol).

Even if pup voters were just led around by their noses, which is a manifestly ridiculous thing to say, *all of them* going to one nation accounts for less than half of one nations vote.
07:57pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18491 posts
Plenty of One Nation supporters were toting about 'stopping' the Safe Schools program. About how it's being forced onto them, that Labor and/or Liberal is pushing it, etc.

Except, it wasn't really part of either Labor or Liberals plans, it isn't really being funded by government and it is totally up to School Principal if they want to run any part of the program if at all.
In other words, these people were just blindly following s*** they have been told by god knows who.
Also, keep in mind, some of the random s*** One Nation candidates actually said, totally wrong stuff, and they were the candidates.

I would be willing to wager that the education levels of the average One Nation voter is below the national average and that many of them truly weren't all that informed on the actual policies of any party.
08:53pm 27/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11730 posts
How did you derive the 80k figure?
Average Full-Time Wage is currently $83.6k.

In 1974 wages were $4940 a year

But a basic kingswood was $4785

That actually puts a new basic vinyl bench seat manual no aircon no power steer kingswood at $81k, as an equivalent to current full time earnings.

Because people used to have kids when they were in their early twenties and less financially secure (from a quick look, median age in Australia has gone up 5 years in the last ~40 years)? Because there was far less population pressure and more houses available for first time home buyers so people bought earlier to start their families much earlier?

Yes, hence my prior sentence to that talking about the ~14 other factors. Those are two legitimate factors of why houses are land is more expensive, yes.


last edited by hardware at 21:04:49 27/Nov/17
09:02pm 27/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39357 posts
yeh just checked with my dad & he thinks he paid between $3-4k for our old Kingswood station wagon. So the price of cars has come down by a factor of 3-4 in the last ~40 years, and the price of property has gone up by 7-10x.
09:19pm 27/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39358 posts
Agreed Hog that is a pretty good interpretation. If you subtrack the swing away from LNP from the swing towards One Nation then its a very mild swing up for them.
man I see it completely differently: that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change. Not desperate enough to vote for the Greens, apparently, but the raging s****how that is the ONP.

I am embarrassed to say I know f*** all about regional Qld but when I come back I plan to visit a lot more of the towns. I would have thought strong environmental support and things like energy independence and clean water and s*** would be far more important to them than the usual bulls*** boogeyman that ONP constantly go on about. (haha like that recent Bob Katter video about the croc attacks in Qld, it was hilarious)
09:23pm 27/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2881 posts
Maybe toll.

But I read the other day that the likelihood of being a climate change deniers goes up with increased education levels. I'll try and find a source for that, but seeing as you haven't sourced lets just take each other at face value.

But here is the thing. I doubt you'll find that greens supporters (or party supporters of any stripe really) differ significantly on being informed on the facts that decide elections. Again I read the other day, for the 2016 US Elections polling showed that republicans and democrats were more or less equally well informed on the important issues, in fact republicans were slightly better informed (but this changes election to election). That means that the average trump supporter was likely to be more informed than the average Hillary voter. Not by much, but but neither side can be credibly claimed to be uniformed.

Here is how I view the attitude that people who vote one nation are ill informed.

There is a chance some of them are. But more likely one nation are talking to a societal issue directly or indirectly which affects them more acutely than people who voted for other parties.

Calling them a bunch of racist idiots is a way of not taking those issues seriously. I think the consequences of taking that attitude are becoming increasingly clear.

The phrase 'reasonable minds can differ' seems to have been completely jettisoned from the political lexicon.

that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change


If you wind that back to people are looking for alternatives to the major parties, we completely agree.
09:48pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
874 posts
Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right.


He's more interested in hating on the opposition than supporting the environment.

What ever happened to hippy love Vash? You won't attract a full commune for your off-the-grid-commune-farm without love...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/4a/a8/d64aa8aaaf3437c82768f764245c18e5.gif

Give some love to the big Orange man too, he's leading them out of economic ruin.

Rudd recons he saved us from the GFC... I'm so glad Rudd made China have a huge boom that sucked materials in from all over... oh and that was good Labor policy to make sure Australia was well stocked with minerals and positioned close to China.

I hope the Orange man makes the same ridicules claims, so Rudd lovers can argue about Orange man's claim to 'being the saviour of the times'.

We could see USA was pulling out of the bottom more than a year ago. This was inevitable, who would be the president at the time was unknown, but they were likely to be at the wheel as USA comes out of ruin. I'm interested to see how this plays out in media as things recover.

Did Rudd save us from the GFC?

Love Vash Love

Also, with voting, many people just vote for that one thing (maybe two) that they are passionate about. I'll vote for X cause they like pink donuts and I like pink donuts, or they are going to reduce the tax on pink donuts and I like pink donuts. I think it's that simple. OR they vote what they were indoctrinated into by family or university, or union. Some will vote against. So I'll vote Z cause Y hates them, and I'm not a fan of Y much, and a few things Z said ring home. I don't think people read too much into policies etc. I like to at times, maybe some elections, not all. I take a bit of interest in local government.
09:53pm 27/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5605 posts
That higher education thing is more amongst American Republicans than the world at large. And to be a climate scientist you kinda need higher education...
Also if you're constantly saying 'I'm not a racist' it's pretty clear you are.
01:26am 28/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4073 posts
for the 2016 US Elections polling showed that republicans and democrats were more or less equally well informed on the important issues
Instead of refering to an editorial why not go to the source?

Highly educated adults – particularly those who have attended graduate school – are far more likely than those with less education to take predominantly liberal positions across a range of political values. And these differences have increased over the past two decades.
I didn't read the whole thing but that editorial without any links might be full of s***.
01:37am 28/11/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3329 posts
I don't think policy platforms is a major driver in how people vote, I doubt it is for the highly educated either really.

I agree with the petester, I think it speaks to some kind of societal issueS. I wonder if there's parallels to the disenfranchisement with established parties like in France with Macron and in some ways Trump in the US.

Seems to me people are getting sick of the political establishment status quo and want drastic change, wherever it comes from.

Likewise I agree with troggles, 300,000 people, and 12% of the vote going to One Nation is a big deal, a f*****g travesty, and really not okay, imo.
03:55am 28/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2882 posts
Instead of referring to an editorial why not go to the source?


Ah well a good start with that line of questioning is to cite the actual source. So way to really stick it me bruh.

the article wasn't discussing the partisanship review, and this idea that post graduate educated people are necessarily better informed as opposed to indoctrinated is one that needs to f*** right off. PWC have dropped the university degree requirement in their hiring practices. So people aren't getting a good enough education in accounting at university to justify hiring them over a high school grad.

go and read real peer review for the state of play for large swathes of the post grad humanities. They ain't 'informed' about s***. They're partisan though, oh they are partisan.
07:49am 28/11/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16834 posts
man I see it completely differently: that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change. Not desperate enough to vote for the Greens, apparently, but the raging s****how that is the ONP.

The ALP had a negative 1.5% swing, basically to the Greens in one single seat. The Left's primary voting behaviour was largely unchanged, with standard GRN => ALP preference flows. The ALP looks to *gain* a majority now, compared to 41 apiece ALP/LNP in the 54th Parliament:

https://i.imgur.com/H4pmhZM.png

As of this morning:

https://i.imgur.com/eVMdyR5.png

The swing to PHON isn't a general swing right. Its the LNP's deeply conservative base having nowhere to go as they lose faith.

I don't quite understand how the ALP potentially gaining six seats seats while the LNP loses one can be interpreted as either a swing to the right or a 'main parties losing the plot'. The LNP is dysfunctional at a State and Federal level.
11:35am 28/11/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21432 posts
The ALP gaining seats would almost be directly from the LNP getting into bed with ONP and also because Tim Nicholls is fake and in hindsight it was a terrible choice to stick with him after the Newman regime.
11:54am 28/11/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16835 posts
The ALP gaining seats would almost be directly from the LNP getting into bed with ONP and also because Tim Nicholls is fake and in hindsight it was a terrible choice to stick with him after the Newman regime.

So the LNP (and the Right in general) is in disarray?

Compiled some data on changing seats to get a gist of the left/right movement in the 43rd Parliament:

https://imgur.com/Uaiain7.png
12:20pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
875 posts

The green and labor public servant voters who work at ABC JJJ, have been caught failing to be apolitical again. A small but growing percentage of listeners believe Australia day to be invasion day. With 41 k a year average, I think everyday is invasion day.

The ABC's board will be asked to reconsider triple j's decision to move the date of its highly successful Hottest 100 countdown away from Australia Day, according to the Communications Minister.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/abc-board-to-review-triple-js-hottest-100-move-mitch-fifield/9199718


12:29pm 28/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4074 posts
Ah well a good start with that line of questioning is to cite the actual source.
Well you said from 2016 and I didn't feel like going through the entire catalog just because the opinion piece you cited didn't link any real source material. Also makes sense for them not to link a source since it doesn't back up their opinion with any statistically significant data.

I completely agree that educated and informed are not the same thing. Educated people are more likely to be able to process information though, rather than simply absorb it and parrot it back. Just look at that video of Pauline Hanson talking to that guy about submarines, that's a fish and chip shop level education trying to deal with information.
12:40pm 28/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11731 posts
 So the price of cars has come down by a factor of 3-4 in the last ~40 years, and the price of property has gone up by 7-10x.
Correct about cars. And remember you need to replace them (or did in those days) after about 10 years and spend another huge amount again. By the time my father was my age he'd spent two full years wages on vehicle depreciation, where as I've spent about 5 months. He had to have loans for those cars, which then meant he didn't have money for a bigger home loan. This was a typical arrangement and the lack of disposable income because it was tied up in all of life's other expenses prevented house prices from getting away.
12:52pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16837 posts
Yeh but now we have VR and Xboxes and s***.
12:56pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3323 posts
Triple J changed the date

In B4 everyone who isn't indigenous gets mad
03:16pm 28/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23856 posts
Triple J, is part of #theirabc run by virtue signalling melbourners so I'm not surprised. How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday? Totally retarded decision. Unless they do it as a once-off token move. In which case it is also retarded virtue signalling.

The Qld eleciton has been fascinating. Labor have done well promoting none of their own successes and recycling the anti-Newman strategy. LNP campaign was so tame, plenty of material to attack a hopeless do-nothing Labor government. ONP did a good job wreaking havoc with an anti-sitting MP preference strategy. They helped LNP sitting members lose. The election has been exciting and chaotic to watch. I'm hoping for a minority government so we can have 4 years of chaos. It's so entertaining to watch (and helps to stop bad laws get passed).
03:25pm 28/11/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11732 posts
do-nothing Labor government.


I'm hoping for a minority government


So you're hoping for more of the same? Do you like a do-nothing labor govt?


Well, I do. I like a do-nothing anything government. Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better.

Standout pluckaduck govt decisions: mandatory voting preferences and gerrymandering. They couldn't even get that to work in their favour.
03:52pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3324 posts
virtue signalling
aw u hurt my #bluepill feelings OH F*** NO SARCASM ALLOWED

Ok here we go: So your argument is that A) the date shouldn't be changed because B) anybody who wants it changed just wants to do so because doing so makes them look like they have virtue but actually C) changing the date is not virtuous at all? logic

Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better.
Nice analysis, great level of critical thought and well presented arguments. As is always welcome in this thread, here's my short and easily-digestible retort, preferably a one-liner from a comedian, for which I welcome a return of pure personal attacks and arguments from authority edit 2: god damn this is hard.

anyway, would you like to put a theoretical or sociological stance behind your view? or are you just parroting typical right wing 'taxes r theft'? Let me help you with the task;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd33BahdAjs&list=PL37FC9556148B7E1F
04:04pm 28/11/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23857 posts
So you're hoping for more of the same? Do you like a do-nothing labor govt?


especially in relation to governments planning to raise taxes: yes.

in relation to the issues under their control, espeically their management of Queensland Rail, their record speaks for itself.

Ok here we go: So your argument is that A) the date shouldn't be changed because B) anybody who wants it changed just wants to do so because doing so makes them look like they have virtue but actually C) changing the date is not virtuous at all? logic


starting from the point that Triple J's hottest 100 on Australia Day is part of the Australian lexicon, factoring in that from a practicality point of view enjoying the playlist on a public holiday logically is the best time to do it, there would need to be an overwhelmingly compelling reason to change it.

their reason stated was "due to the controversy surrounding Australia Day". I don't see any controversy surrounding Australia Day and they cited no survey or popular sentiment backing except possibly with their QANDA viewing black bespectacled acolytes. Thus is it is virtue signalling i.e. taking a "tough" decision to parrot a worthless virtue that is not even held by the wider population. C) changing the date is virtuous to the ABC management no doubt and to the people they kiss ass to: the politically-correct left.

Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better.


i agree from a parliamentary point of view the fewer laws (*cough* lock out and ID scanning) that Labor passes the better- and a minority will force them to negotiate out the worst parts hopefully. Worse though, the Labor government's executive has been a do-nothing, incurring debt and public service bloat for no tangible improvement in the state and no plan to pay back government debt.
04:49pm 28/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4075 posts
Do people still listen to triple J? I would have thought spotify and the like would be making broadcast radio as relevant as broadcast TV.
05:24pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5606 posts
I enjoy the hack program on Triple J.
Unlike conservative stations, they bring on people from both sides of politics for a discussion rather than 'your father died of shame' kind of crap.
05:50pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2168 posts
I put on double j because I am old and cannot listen to JJJ anymore and also to fap to myf's husky voice.
06:51pm 28/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39359 posts
How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday?
In their FAQ, they refer to picking "the fourth weekend of january", so I suspect it's not hard locked onto the 27th, but will instead float to be the last weekend in Jan (or the Saturday after Australia Day). Locking it to the 27th would be madness.

But they did a poll with 60k responses and most people were OK with the vote. If it's good enough for Brexit and gay marriage, it's good enough for moving Australia Day.

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/9197336/data/hottest-100-survey-graph-2-data.jpg

I didn't vote (if I had, I would have said "don't care"), but moving it to Saturday I think is better. Big mid-week drinking days listening to the countdown were hard work but now I have a Sunday to recover.

edit:
they cited no survey or popular sentiment backing
yeh they did
07:35pm 28/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2883 posts
Well you said from 2016 and I didn't feel like going through the entire catalog just because the opinion piece you cited didn't link any real source material.

So you just link to a random survey? yeah ok.

Also makes sense for them not to link a source since it doesn't back up their opinion with any statistically significant data.

The actual source does, and Pew disagree with you on statistical significance.

Educated people are more likely to be able to process information though, rather than simply absorb it and parrot it back. Just look at that video of Pauline Hanson talking to that guy about submarines, that's a fish and chip shop level education trying to deal with information.


While we are talking about uncited claims. Is there some reason to believe that a post-graduate educated person is better able to process information? I'm sure an art theory major would be exceedingly well prepared to answer questions about submarines by comparison 0_o.
08:30pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6611 posts
I would have thought strong environmental support and things like energy independence and clean water and s*** would be far more important to them than the usual bulls*** boogeyman



Some of the GRN policies (like the stopping of all feral animal control until a more humane procedure can be found) are absolutely toxic to regional voters. Even those only ~45min drive (like Jimboomba) have feral pest problems. This alone is enough to get them preference last.

3. Ban those poisons and trapping methods which cause extreme suffering, and support research into more humane methods of population management.
GRN Policy page

They also want to stop clearing for grazing land. I can get that, I can even support that, but it's dramatically opposite to what farmers want.

Water Security? Previous Green policies (and groups like Greenpeace, that sadly some voters can't tell the difference from) are dead against new dams. Farmers rely on personal dams. The hoops they have to go through now is more than enough headache for them, I can understand why they don't want it worse.

Central North / North QLD has a lot of people employed by the mining sector. And their Husbands/Wives/Kids.

The reason that Inner west and South Brisbane do so well for the Greens, is because all these great policies have absolutely no primary affect on them. So what if freal dogs aren't allowed to be trapped for a while? I haven't seen any around here. Dams? We've got Wivenhoe, we're good. They want to knock down trees for a new estate? Why can't they live in a town house in the city like me? Also, why are town houses in the city so expensive? Plus we get cheap/better public transport... well... we do... in the city... those people out on the farms will have to still drive.

I actually put Greens first, for the first time ever, this election. Though I can see, and agree 100%, why those that would be the most impacted by their policies (Hint: not inner city hipsters) put them last.
09:11pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4637 posts
Triple J, is part of #theirabc run by virtue signalling melbourners so I'm not surprised. How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday? Totally retarded decision. Unless they do it as a once-off token move. In which case it is also retarded virtue signalling.

I believe the ABC, including JJJ, is for the most part administered from Sydney, but that's neither here nor there

I'd argue that moving the Hottest 100 is not virtue signalling, or if it is, then it doesn't fit a definition of the term that is particularly useful - they are practicing what they preach, so to speak

if they do move it back it will probably be due to pressure from certain government ministers and not from their audience
09:28pm 28/11/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39360 posts
I actually put Greens first, for the first time ever, this election. Though I can see, and agree 100%, why those that would be the most impacted by their policies (Hint: not inner city hipsters) put them last.
Thanks dude. Good post & certainly shows I have a lot to learn about regional Qld. Probably not unlike every party except ON and Katter.
10:09pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3325 posts
Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt, we'd have fantastic solutions by now if tiny R&D grants didn't get cut at unis/CSIRO, I know a number of very promising Aussie labs had to switch to different projects or some got lucky, a UQ group got IBM to fund for GM pest management methods and theres a joint research effort to I think it was cane toads which found traps for their tadpole life stage were a huge success

Telling rural folks they can go out and shoot s*** willy nilly is nice and all but it's just not a long term fix.
10:42pm 28/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3326 posts
But yeah do certainly agree there are segments of the greens platform I disagree with, but overall it's better than major parties for now
10:44pm 28/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4076 posts
So you just link to a random survey? yeah ok.
A good reason to cite references perhaps?
The actual source does, and Pew disagree with you on statistical significance.
No it doesn't, no they don't.
While we are talking about uncited claims. Is there some reason to believe that a post-graduate educated person is better able to process information? I'm sure an art theory major would be exceedingly well prepared to answer questions about submarines by comparison 0_o.
This is a great example of someone taking in information yet not being able to process it.
11:05pm 28/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2884 posts
A good reason to cite references perhaps?


maybe. but seeing as you linked to the first survey you could find, maybe not.

The result of the pew research does support the thesis of the article which is that republican voters are not less informed that democratic voters and there is some reason to think they are slightly more informed.

No it doesn't, no they don't.

Yes it does, and yes they do.

This is a great example of someone taking in information yet not being able to process it.


If you say so. I'm sure you meant something other than a university education will better prepare someone for dealing with the rigors of submarine acquisition than working in a fish and chip shop because of supposed information processing benefits.

while we are on the subject. linking to a random survey about republicans and democrats when the discussion was about how informed republicans or democrats are would be an example of what exactly? looks like you took in a key word and posted the first link you came across which matched the keyword to me. I guess I should use citations, to guard against lack of information processing ability.
06:59am 29/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2885 posts
Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt, we'd have fantastic solutions by now if tiny R&D grants didn't get cut at unis/CSIRO, I know a number of very promising Aussie labs had to switch to different projects or some got lucky, a UQ group got IBM to fund for GM pest management methods and theres a joint research effort to I think it was cane toads which found traps for their tadpole life stage were a huge success

Telling rural folks they can go out and shoot s*** willy nilly is nice and all but it's just not a long term fix.


sigh.

And if the policy was 'greens will fund research and subsidize any resultant solution for regional people' they might listen. But the policy is a ban on pest control until research which may or may not deliver is complete.

if this
GM pest management methods


is genetically modified pest management, there is zero change the greens are funding it.
07:39am 29/11/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3330 posts
I'm a city kid. However there's rather dangerous feral dog packs roaming around even at my parents place in Boonah, which is only an hour or so out of Brisbane. Those dogs would likely kill my parent's dogs and probs have a fair go at my mum if given the opportunity. Lucky their neighbour is a farmer type who has a rifle and keeps them in check. I can defo understand Scooter's points there.
08:27am 29/11/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6612 posts
Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt

Totally agree. If their policy was simply more funding, I'd be all for it. You might even get some regional voters to be ok with it. It's not just that though. Which is the problem.

Telling rural folks they can go out and shoot s*** willy nilly is nice and all but it's just not a long term fix.

The fact that you make the leap from "poisons and trapping methods" to 'shooting s*** willy nilly' further enforces the divide Trog was talking about. Farmers don't shoot s*** willy nilly, bullets cost money.
It's inner city hunters (people like my brother) that take their guns and go out to enjoy a weekend of recreational hunting (i.e. shooting s*** willy nilly)
They don't vote Greens either.

As for GM pest management, GRN are pretty staunchly against anything GM. Unless things have changed significantly from their current policy live on their info page.
#7 (maybe #8) is about the only reasonable principle they hold on the topic.
08:39am 29/11/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4077 posts
If you say so. I'm sure you meant something other than a university education will better prepare someone for dealing with the rigors of submarine acquisition than working in a fish and chip shop because of supposed information processing benefits.

while we are on the subject. linking to a random survey about republicans and democrats when the discussion was about how informed republicans or democrats are would be an example of what exactly? looks like you took in a key word and posted the first link you came across which matched the keyword to me. I guess I should use citations, to guard against lack of information processing ability.
At this point you're just embarrassing yourself.
10:29am 29/11/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3327 posts
you make the leap from "poisons and trapping methods" to 'shooting s*** willy nilly' further enforces the divide Trog was talking about. Farmers don't shoot s*** willy nilly, bullets cost money. 
It's inner city hunters (people like my brother) that take their guns and go out to enjoy a weekend of recreational hunting (i.e. shooting s*** willy nilly) 


I'm aware of farmers using guns to shoot feral pigs/foxes/dogs etc, perhaps you're talking about industrial farmers or? My interpretation of the greens platform is that they would likely ban shooting pests for rural folks because they believe it's inhumane, but maybe not

The greens GM policy is very ham fisted but it does seem reasonable in the long term tbqh. The biotech industry is a s****how and the benefits GM seeds give to farmers are eaten up in jacked prices and higher barriers to entry for everyday farmers anyway. Like many industries regulation and breaking up the oligopoly would see a huge benefit to many small/medium farmers and consumers thanks to increased competition.

And I can imagine like most engineers or scientists doing ecological/environmental reports, these days the major companies just want to know what the legal limits are to f*****g up the environment is, and operate as close as possible to it. You don't often get genetic/microbiologists and ecologists working towards innovation together so there could even be some sweetass joint ventures or new research applications out of it
12:00pm 29/11/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6614 posts
Yeah, that's not 'willy nilly' though. I'm talking about anyone that lives in regional QLD. Which is only ~45min drive away from Brisbane.
Along with trapping and poison they might ban shooting as well. That's not their policy though, which is why I didn't mention it. Seemed like a bit of a slippery slope putting policies into their mouths.

There should be more competition in GMO, again I agree 100%. You can be damn sure there will be less if we implement policies that make it so they can't own/profit off their own research though.
CSIRO has done a bit of their own research (which I also support) last time they had a big Wheat crop Greenpeace went in with wipper-snippers and destroyed most of it (not kidding, it actually happened. ACT Greens member came out in defence of Greenpeace at the time.)

It's not just Ham fisted, it's anti-science and just plain backwards. Which is an odd position for them, considering how pro-science they are most other places.
06:46pm 29/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2886 posts
At this point you're just embarrassing yourself.


If you say so captain information processing. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a degree in theology will better equip you for discussing submarines than working in a fish and chip shop. I guess we'll never know. More's the pity.
06:50pm 29/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2887 posts
Which is an odd position for them, considering how pro-science they are most other places.


They are pro science when it suits them. Just like everyone else. Their nuclear policy has little basis in fact. And as far as their GMO policy goes, item 7 in principles is pulled from thin air. Farmers are not required to buy GMO stock, never have been and never will be.

Look up john haidt and his discussion of sacred values. Where ever your sacred values lie, you can expect on close inspection to see a science free zone.
07:50pm 29/11/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18492 posts

If you say so captain information processing. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a degree in theology will better equip you for discussing submarines than working in a fish and chip shop. I guess we'll never know. More's the pity.


This is precisely a major problem I have with the current major governments. Many of them have law degrees or are some kind of investment banker, and I dare say many of those with Law degrees haven't practiced much and/or were pretty s*** at it. The career politicians, etc.

Many of the MP's put into various portfolios have f*** all experience in that area, and from what I can tell expert advice is seemingly not sort after and/or it is just plain ignored. Many of these politicians are simply not equipped to understand a significant portion of the portfolios they oversea and make up seemingly random policies based on whatever the f*** strikes their fancy at the time.
I say this because there are countless policies, by both major governments, that just plain ignore scientific findings and many times kind of do the opposite.
A science minister that has f*** all experience with understanding science .. yeah I'm sure that is useful for making good policy. God it s**** me.

I would so much prefer our leaders had degrees in philosophy, with detailed knowledge of a variety of methods to direct and foster a nation. An understanding of humility and a strong willingness to seek and use expert advice without getting all defensive about their own ego's.
When a policy needs to be enacted into Law, have your expert panel of lawyers write it up.

Ideally each MP would actually have a degree and/or solid experience in the portfolios they manage.

I know it's a dreamworld to have such a thing, but f*** being OK with letting a bunch of banksters and lawyers try and tell me what I can and can't do, because I sure as hell know whatever it is they want, probably isn't for my own well-being with their backgrounds...

11:42pm 29/11/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13735 posts
The biotech industry is a s****how and the benefits GM seeds give to farmers are eaten up in jacked prices and higher barriers to entry for everyday farmers anyway. Like many industries regulation and breaking up the oligopoly would see a huge benefit to many small/medium farmers and consumers thanks to increased competition.


For what it's worth both of these are actually the reverse. Farmers (who aren't ideologically opposed to GE seeds) generally love GE seeds in spite of their cost because they have a guaranteed and consistent yield, are insured as such, require fewer inputs, help cater to practices that improve soil health and usually help their bottom line.

Regulation on GE crops actually stifles public innovation in this field and is why the large biotech companies actually lobby for regulation, contrary to what most drooling anti-ge pundits think. Current regulatory requirements keep most small outfits out of the game because the required capital and time investments are prohibitive. (Have a read of what the Simplot guys for example have to say on this matter) There should be no additional regulation on new GE traits than there are on new traits produced by any other method.
12:00pm 30/11/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2888 posts
@toll

Broadly agree, but would add that I don't think ordinary people being in parliament is a terrible idea. It exists to govern ordinary people with their consent.

Farmers (who aren't ideologically opposed to GE seeds) generally love GE seeds in spite of their cost because they have a guaranteed and consistent yield, are insured as such, require fewer inputs, help cater to practices that improve soil health and usually help their bottom line.


It is even more pronounced than that Jim. depends where you draw the line for 'GM', but developing new breeds arguably fits the bill. Farmers have been buying seed from seed vendors for exactly the reasons you describe for well over a hundred years.

If you save your own seed you have very limited control over the genetic linage of the plants, and so when nature does its thing and cross pollinates with wild breeds which have lower yields, the farmers income drops accordingly.

GMO is a scwary boogie man twist on something that has been practiced in one form or another for thousands of years. The process of species domestication is GM.

With this said, the fact that the greens reject the science on GMO and Nuclear but accept it on climate change is actually perfectly consistent with their core values. Which maybe summarized as the the naturalistic fallacy writ large.

We haven't even touched the controversial stuff. You can be confident they don't hold views consistent with the research around IQ.
08:24pm 30/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5607 posts
If only PP analysed the policies of Trump/ON/LNP with as much vigor, he may yet become a Greens voter.
11:18pm 30/11/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3332 posts
Being anti-gmo is about as smart & beneficial as being anti-vaccines.
11:21pm 30/11/17 Permalink
Vash
5608 posts
Indeed, though you'd be hard pressed to find a political party that matches your views 100%.
11:33pm 30/11/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13736 posts
Vash I think if you don't see that he does indeed do that, it's just further testament to your ideological blinkers. From my perspective I'd hazard a guess that he could trot out a long list of faults with each of those parties/politicians. It seems like you're conflating criticism of some of your own viewpoints, with support for right-wingers. This is a problem I face with a lot of my far-left family members and it stems from a lack of critical thinking and emotional attachment to a position on something.

I also have to question the reasoning you employed to arrive at that point re: voting for greens in the first place, when two hugely important factors for all people on the planet - (ge) food and (nuclear) energy - have been highlighted as areas that greens are religiously and unreasonably opposed to, despite the science on both matters. I totally agree with you on 'hard pressed to find a political party that matches your views 100%' - I feel exactly the same way. I like a lot of the things the greens appear to stand for, but it's a concern to me that they are so wrong on at least these matters. I like a lot of the things the liberal democrats appear to advocate for, but often can't get on board with the specifically libertarian aspects. I can't really think of anything at all that I like about the LNP so I guess I can at least rule one out entirely :)
02:51am 01/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5609 posts
I have yet to see PP criticise the LNP/ON/Trump, but plenty on the Greens & Democrats. My point stands :)

There are alternatives to food production, and energy other than GE & Nuclear. There are no alternatives to reversing the impact Climate change, and corporatism has on the environment, and us.

Infact, if we fought Climate change much earlier, we wouldn't need GE Food. There are immense amounts of ways to generate energy also.

Having said that i dont agree with the stance the Greens have on those, but it certainly isn't a deal breaker considering the piss poor policy of the opposing parties.
03:43am 01/12/17 Permalink