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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2075 posts

Centrist was the neoliberal experiment that has now come to an end.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/paul-keating-says-neoliberalism-is-at-a-dead-end-after-sally-mcmanus-speech-20170329-gv9cto.html

It has failed the working class and now action is required. Not more radical centrist bulls***.


10:06pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3275 posts
Corbyn is, above all else, authentic. I think that really resonates.

I'd agree neoliberalism has failed in many areas and caused a lot of our woes, however it also did a bunch of great things, you can't argue against the benefits of liberal markets and globalism, despite the solvable negatives we've since discovered.

Neoliberalism is not equal to centralism. When I say centralism I mean the middle ground, a reasonable, rational mix of centre-left and centre-right policies that appeal to, and can work for, the majority of people. That's in respect to the right v left political spectrum. It certainly doesn't have to contain overtly neoliberal policies, the policy can be anything per say. Democracy requires consensus and consensus requires compromise. You won't get that with an ever increasing ideological divide, ergo, we need more centralism.

If you fancy a good read of neoliberalim's death knell, I liked this article: Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
10:32pm 10/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7653 posts
Not more radical centrist bulls***.


oxymoron ++
10:12am 11/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3276 posts
This is what I'm talking about, France leading the way!

Emmanuel Macron’s party looks set to sweep into power

A second revolution is underway in France. On the back of the remarkable election in May of Mr Macron, who had never before run for election to any office, La République en Marche! (LRM), a movement he founded just 14 months ago, looks set to secure a parliamentary majority at the two-round legislative election, on June 11th and 18th (see chart).
The Macron parliamentary revolution is not only about upsetting the old party balance, which has dominated France for 60 years, in favour of a new radical centre. It is also changing the face of French politics. Fully 251 of the 525 candidates LRM is fielding, which it selected from among 19,000 online applicants, have never run for elected office before, according to Le Monde, a newspaper. Half are women; the average age is 47. Like Mr Bonnell, some are entrepreneurs. There are also many teachers, civil servants and doctors, 11 farmers, two firemen, a hairdresser, an ex-professional golfer, a theologian, a mathematician and a female fighter pilot. This astonishing democratic experiment is both refreshing, and a gamble.
12:46am 12/06/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4606 posts
there's going to be no far-centre movement taking Australian poltics by storm, even if there's some rich d******* like Clive Palmer to pay the significant cost of setting a new national party up
02:40am 12/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21274 posts
Heh, Trump's actually going to be stupid enough to lie under oath isn't he?


if it is just his word against the other guys, which is what it sounds like - then of course he will lie

the things Comey is claiming that Trump said sound EXACTLY like something an egotist like Trump would say
07:57am 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12799 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
Cant wait for the next one.

America is becoming Great Again.

Meanwhile Conservatism in Australia takes a step backwards with The Labor-Lite Liberal Party re-introducing Labors Great Big New Tax on Electricity.

http://wp.failure.at/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/facepalm_triple.jpg
12:11pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2577 posts
Corbyn is hardly a commie, although he's certainly hard left.


His director of strategy, seamus milne, is a stalinist and Thomas Piketty resigned as an economic advisor to him.

He has probably learned, as all communists have, to tart his language up. I wouldn't be surprise behind closed doors if he is an outright commie.

if sanders and corbyn represent the new left, the left is in serious trouble.

He made up some ground against a terrible campaign in an election that was called pretty cynically. But lets keep in mind that while the conservatives lost seats, they picked up 4% or so in national vote. Corbyn came no where near forming government.

And if you are looking for Corbyn to bail you out of brexit you don't know Corbyn. The dude is a life long brexiteer. Keep this list of feckless cowardice and incompetence in mind when ever you discuss him.
03:56pm 12/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38999 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
What story exactly? the one made of straw that you just erected in that sentence or another one

aside from your paid Russian troll-esque propaganda, what signs are there that America is becoming great again? (genuine question because there is a lot of "Trump is the badz" noise in the worldwide news so it's easily possible I have missed some positive economic wins that are the direct result of his policies and I would be genuinely interested to see how he's going)

(edited to fix broken quote tags, what a noob)
05:44pm 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12800 posts
All the Liberals were tuning in to hear Comey sink Trump
and it didnt happen.
Comey delivered a great big Nothing Burger.
I have to say Comey appears to be incompetent, possibly a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

on to the Winning !
$ 100 billion a year not going to The UN Climate slush fund
The end of the War on Coal
The end of the ludicrous Clean Energy regulations
Billions of infrastructure funding from Saudis
Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis
Approving the Keystone pipeline

The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
Manufacturing Index at highest in 30 years
NATO welfare countries contributions to increase by 10 billion a year
Trump added 300 000 jobs in his first month.

He is the most Winning President ever just as he predicted.
The Media campaign against him is hilarious.
If he gets those Tax Cuts through America will move beyond Great.
a New World Order is forming and Australia is out chasing the Climate Unicorn.

The President also pointed out numerous times that the MSM (Main Stream Media) reports only on a made up Russia conspiracy story and ignores these accomplishments. These actions are making the majority of Americans aware of the tremendous bias in the media in the US and abroad. This too is another major Trump accomplishment. Winning, Winning, Winning!

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/04/draft-complete-list-of-president-trumps-accomplishments-in-his-first-100-days/

06:31pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18393 posts

Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis


I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.
08:37pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2578 posts
I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.


+1
08:41pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3278 posts
Yeah I agree with you re: Corbyn Pete.

None of those things really sound like wins to me.
09:55pm 12/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25880 posts
Anyone see the video of the cabinet meeting where Trump spoke a bit about how great he was and then kept the camera in there as they went around the table recording 'praise' from the people sitting there? Truly bizarre stuff. Not really sure whether he's surrounded by mindless sycophants or whether they were under orders.

07:06pm 13/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39006 posts
do people not remember where the phrase "winning" came from? why would people use it in a non-ironic sense?

also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance about arming countries in the Middle East they are massively ideologically opposed to and constantly one bad intel report away from invading. Last I checked that group was still mad at the thought of having to go up against their own planes from Top Gun when they invaded Iran!
The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
you picked the wrong weekend to brag about how great the US markets are going, but yeh the stock market is indeed going up! like it has been since 2008.
07:15pm 13/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12801 posts
Bolt claims there is an emergency meeting of the Liberal Party on right now.
has been going for 3 hours.
I think the Finkle Report could be the end of Trunbull.

that video lol I was gonna post it.
Trump trolls the Media Part 23
What a genius.



07:41pm 13/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7655 posts
This country is stuffed!

Boony for PM



10:25pm 13/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13702 posts
It's a pretty sad indictment of the poverty of your own intellect when you think buffoonery that is truly akin to behaviour you'd expect from a reality TV show, is excused as 'trolling' - and in the next breath, even praised as 'genius'. I wonder if the bar for alleging genius has ever been lower
02:21am 14/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12802 posts
Well, it was above Hillary Clinton.
02:32am 14/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13703 posts
Hillary Clinton wasn't a great candidate, but still... no

Hillary Clinton would at least have not debased the office beyond the usual realm of political perfidy. Donald Trump's redeeming qualities are appreciable or even perceivable largely only by people who tend to hold positions not grounded in reason. See most of the list you posted earlier for a resounding example.
02:50am 14/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40621 posts
05:25am 14/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3279 posts
Relax guys, Rodman's got this.
06:56am 14/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25882 posts
also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance
The same way it is always resolved - selective ignorance.
05:34pm 14/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7656 posts
I'm really getting sick of all the extremism on both sides
08:01pm 14/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2367 posts
US President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post has reported.
Aww poor Faceman his god is heading for impeachment
10:21am 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12803 posts
can i get a side order of Freedom Fries with that new Nothing Burger HJ ?

Crazy Lefty Socialist Sanders Supporter tries to murder Republicans.
What do you expect with Celebrities doing decapitations, knifings of Trump in plays, the frenzy in the Media ?

Trump is the President.
Make America Great Again or get outta the way.
12:33pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25883 posts
The day Trump is impeached and removed from office will almost be as sweet as when the Blues win the Origin 3-0 this year.
04:53pm 15/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2579 posts
The odds of trump being impeached by a republican house are almost nothing.
07:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25884 posts
Luckily the odds of the Blues winning 3-0 are much higher.
07:55pm 15/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
778 posts
I don't personally like that we are heading further socialist like some of northern Europe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCT5JZpW0AApFa3.jpg

The Greens and other Communists are Trump Triggered, and can't get past what a person says and how his hair looks. The disgruntled millennials who can't find a house to buy because we live in an expensive country lapping up the Greens and other Communists propaganda is folly. Joining the Trump Hate ban wagon... it has hardly anything to do with us. They should support the person they voted in. They all cheat. Did people really want Hillary? Wake up. Bernie was never going to make it, just like the leader of the Greens, and Pauline will never be PM. That's it millennials, keep encouraging people to flood in for the welfare. We/you need more welfare... and at the same time blame government for low low-end wages, and lack of housing. Do you really think Obama is any more genuine than Trump because Obama comes across so calm and PC? He's a politician, they are all full of s***.

The prices on housing going through the roof is a good thing. It's when the houses are worth hardly anything... like the economic failure that is USA... that we are in trouble.

If this place is so crap, catch a plane and move to another country. I like it here, and I like seeing some 'right' representation to combat policy based on 'feels'.
09:23pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25885 posts
Cool parody post bro but do you mind linking to where you got it from?

edit: I found this funny

https://image.ibb.co/hBbFA5/DCW2_Epy_Uw_AEl5di.jpg
free image hosting websites
09:29pm 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12804 posts
11:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2368 posts
I'm looking forward to the "Communications Over Various Feeds Electronically For Engagement" Act
06:34pm 16/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39010 posts
If you are interested in more detail about the ongoing legal s****how in the US at the moment I found this 100-post Twitter thing really interesting. There was a followup today about some of the predictions in it coming true.
08:50pm 16/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2580 posts
got to 18 and stopped reading. Could use some accurate detail.

He claims the Steele dossier has been "partly confirmed" and it alleges trump committed treason. Well f*** that is damning, just for context It also alleges trump hired prostitutes to piss on a bed Michelle Obama slept on.

About the only confirmed in that document is some jackass private eye called steele wrote it.
09:44pm 16/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
779 posts
http://www.haanhealth.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/psychologist1.jpg

"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.
01:32am 17/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5378 posts
"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.


Cute. Could be accurate if you thought Trump was a disaster just based on his personality, but all you need to do is look at policy, and his policies affect all of us. Climate change isn't this little issue that will go away.
Unless you're the kind of person that loves shifting your problems under a rug.

As usual Chomsky is right, the conversation has been very well magnified to the us vs them mentality. Policy is just not important enough to discuss, and if you do dare, it ends up being, what about Obama or Hilary, or how precious liberals are. How boring.
01:46am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
780 posts
I'm very familiar with his policies:

https://www.politiplatform.com/trump

his policies affect all of us


Go on enlighten me. There are numbers, so it's really easy to list the ones that
affect all of us


I can see 146. Tell me about
all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

Do not despair. Even if you identify symptoms of having Trumphobia, it's not all that bad. It could be worse, you could be one of the many who vote for the Australian Greens without reading their policies from the source, but because they seem so much more honest and'nice'.

https://greens.org.au/policies/social-justice

A more equitable distribution of resources should eliminate poverty.


Currently 30% of our income tax goes to Welfare. Clearly that is not enough for the Greens.

Immigration must be non-discriminatory on the grounds of nationality, ethnicity, religion, language, gender, disability, sexuality, age or socioeconomic background.


Insanity, right there.

The development of networks, materials and programs that increase community understanding of the causes and benefits of migration.


There are benefits of migration, however these are diluted when including socioeconomic background in Policy. Tell me the economic benefit. It's pure 'feels' with additional cost.
10:38am 17/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12806 posts
Nmag first of all he doesnt believe in God, oops I mean Climate Change.
and then he doesnt believe in Russians Change
and he doesnt believe in Transgender Sex Change (reversed bathroom law)
and he supports Israels security concerns
and hes Rich, very Rich.

and worst of all... he doesnt listen to The UN

Trump refuses to believe in Left Wing sacred cows
Its almost like hes a Conservative.

and Hillary got more votes.

and hes Hitler.

10:52am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
781 posts
Nah we have moved past 'perception' and are basing comments on his policies. Go ahead, list some of the 146 that drive your Trumphobia.
10:58am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25886 posts
Just out of curiosity, why do you think it isn't worth commenting about something if it doesn't affect you?

The USA is without a doubt the most powerful and influential nation in the world. Trump's behaviour at the very best is highly questionable and the whole Russia thing could turn out to be one of the biggest and most damaging political scandals of all time. Only a fool or a hardcore apologist would say that his actions won't have global effects. You say go read a map, I'd suggest you go read a history book.

But one has already been mentioned in any case. It's a thing that doesn't just affect everybody but will affect everybody body till the end of time.
11:04am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
782 posts

I think it's great to comment on it, however we are saturated in news about his hair and tweets and how he shakes hands etc. It enrages people who really have little idea about his Policies or read transcripts of speeches, but instead read a clickbait hate heading and continue to spiral into this Trumphobia, while there are things much closer to home to deal with. Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.

His hair is no more than left wing circle jerking content. It cements the left, and further conditions people to ignore policy, or what actually happens, and increase the feel factor. No room for feels in business, unless you work in marketing or HR.

We need to be objective about where our news comes from and how it is manipulated. Here is and example, ABC News website has being showing snippets of this on going saga: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-11/china-communist-party-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754 When you read ABC news, look where they place articles. ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident. The push by communist China in this country is a concern, however ABC is a government institution housing employees, and loved by people who are voting for communism with their Green votes.

When you read ABC News, or TheGuardian, have a good look at the articles they are promoting with top billing, and where they place the articles that demonstrate clear evidence that not discriminating on socioeconomic grounds comes with consequences. Have a good look at the other "Opinion" articles some of the witter produce. Look for facts in these articles. Many of the writters, and the promoters of these articles are far more "divisive" than trump and his antics, or his actual policies.


11:20am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25887 posts
Well I agree about the hair and handshakes. They're of little importance but they're fun to laugh about. Kind of funny that an apparent master of the deal can't even execute a proper handshake don't you agree? I reckon his tweets are important for reasons I've already mentioned. Not so much amusing mistakes like covfefe, more the way he is trying to neutralise the media by claiming it's all fake news and conditioning his followers to consider himself the only reliable source of information, using it to intimidate witnesses and so forth.
11:35am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
783 posts
There's that word again. "All".

We can't have intelligent conversations when we include absolutes, that are exaggerations. They might feel good when writing them, but they are generally false. In a proper competitive debate, teams lose points after getting teared apart for throwing around "all" incorrectly.

A great deal of news is 'fake'. I've written media releases for things before, and it can be the most simple subject without any controversy. You give it to a journalist, they will twist the article to introduce controversy, to engage with people's 'feels", it sells advertising space and drives the 'discussion', but it's often rubbish. It's very common, and it's lame. Once you see the article in the paper, you wonder about the integrity of many Journalists. After doing this many times you start to realise there is a strong pattern.

We have a great deal of stupid people in our world, many of them don't read details or consider where the source of the news is coming from. They read click bait headings and throw a comment down. You see it often on FB. Then replies under the comment (which has 100 likes) pointing factually, that the article content is contrary to what the 100 like comment states. The 100 like comment reflects the clickbait heading. This is very common. It's easy to underestimate how many stupid people there are. If you want more stupid people, support the Greens policy regarding "or socioeconomic background" on migration.

Remember all the hype about FPS driving people to be violent. Who believes that playing FPS is a major multiple contributing factor. Lets not even get into chicken and the egg type cause/symptom topic.

In the 1970's and early 1980's we had news articles about how playing Dungeons and Dragons can kill you.
11:59am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25888 posts
Well I guess Trump is the one losing points in this case because he's the one claiming anything negative printed about him is fake news.
12:10pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5379 posts
socioeconomic background.


That's what is called insane policy to you? Heh.
And none of Trump's policies ring that bell in your mind?
12:18pm 17/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2581 posts
Another gem from Seth Abramson.

Apparently this

I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt,


is obstruction of justice. There is nothing untrue in that sentence. Rosenstein did write a memo that was none too complimentary about comey to the white house. Rosenstein is investigating the firing (well overseeing it) through the special investigator.

Mr Abramson, appears to think this is a clear threat that trump will fire him, or something.
02:59pm 17/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7657 posts
His hair is no more than left wing circle jerking content. It cements the left, and further conditions people to ignore policy, or what actually happens, and increase the feel factor. No room for feels in business, unless you work in marketing or HR.


Spot on Nmag - classic bait and switch. Although to be fair to the lefties, the right-wingers get all stirred up on certain topics as well that "cements" their base.

Meanwhile China goes about its business buying up Australia and bribing pollies from both sides of politics.

"Nothing to see hear round-eye, you go about fighting amongst yourselves."

04:17pm 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25889 posts
How is that a bait and switch?
04:27pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39011 posts
I think it's great to comment on it, however we are saturated in news about his hair and tweets and how he shakes hands etc. It enrages people who really have little idea about his Policies or read transcripts of speeches, but instead read a clickbait hate heading and continue to spiral into this Trumphobia, while there are things much closer to home to deal with. Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.
This is indeed a problem and has been for years, but has NOTHING to do with Trump and everything to do with the way a) people use the Internet and b) people make money off the Internet.

There is a reason I've spent like 10 years s***ting on news.com.au. The simple fact is clicks == money and until people stop clicking things won't change. I find myself in the awkward position of now almost wanting everyone to use adblockers because "ads keep websites free" is outweighed by the dangers click-funded journalism

i.e.: If you're reading articles about Trump's hair in 2017, you're part of the problem!
ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident.
The ABC is still my go to news source but you are 100% right; they suffer from the same problem as above: they are stupidly driven by the same metrics as commercial news stations (clicks/hits/impressions), despite it having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their "business model".

I have been an angry old man yelling at them on Twitter about this several times.
Many of the writters, and the promoters of these articles are far more "divisive" than trump and his antics, or his actual policies.
I disagree with this in general; this is a common perception of bias in media and there have been academic studies to show that many of the majors are typically surprisingly unbiased and fact-based. When I read most articles on those sites (outside of opinion section) they are basically a dry list of facts which is what I want my journalism to be.
Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.
It sounds to me like you are making the classic Internet mistake of being really sick of hearing about something so you keep talking about how you're sick of hearing about it :) It's a vicious circle dude! (I blocked the phrase "Trump" on Twitter for exactly this reason and holy s*** it's so much nicer, although some still sneak through like the thing I posted above.)
06:16pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39012 posts
Meanwhile China goes about its business buying up Australia and bribing pollies from both sides of politics.
And those left wing hippies over at the ABC continue to do nothing about it!
06:22pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3281 posts
I think this media bit is a interesting and important topic. But who's to blame? The media? Or is it us the audience? After all it's our clicks they're chasing. It's a feedback loop, so they're giving us what we click on the most, and it seems to be mostly s***.

Although I will say, I don't think we need 24x7 rolling news coverage and should perhaps do away with it. It just creates a never ending demand for anything remotely 'newsworthy'.
06:52pm 17/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2582 posts
Although I will say, I don't think we need 24x7 rolling news coverage and should perhaps do away with it. It just creates a never ending demand for anything remotely 'newsworthy'.


Amen to that.
07:35pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
784 posts

When these articles were appearing on ABC news many of them had an unusually high number of bits of junk stories scattered above to push them down, even though the show is done by Four Corners.

They are good articles.

"How the Chinese Communist Party exerts its influence in Australia: detained professor"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-06/how-china-uses-its-soft-power-strategy-in-australia/8590610


08:14pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39014 posts

When these articles were appearing on ABC news many of them had an unusually high number of bits of junk stories scattered above to push them down, even though the show is done by Four Corners.

They are good articles.

"How the Chinese Communist Party exerts its influence in Australia: detained professor"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-06/how-china-uses-its-soft-power-strategy-in-australia/8590610


so when I saw them on ABC they had pole position (otherwise I would not have seen them because I rarely scan below the fold). But they can only keep it as big news for so long. People are just apathetic as f*** about it I reckon
08:37pm 17/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7659 posts
London Terror Attack Scoreboard:

ISIS 30 kills

Financial Parasites 150 kills



tru dat
09:43pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Chancre
Brisbane, Queensland
43 posts

Here is and example, ABC News website has being showing snippets of this on going saga: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-11/china-communist-party-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754 When you read ABC news, look where they place articles. ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident. The push by communist China in this country is a concern


Um, the ABC were posting stories all the previous week before that event about China's influence on Australia. In fact it was getting kind of tedious how much they were doing this. All through their radio broadcasts, always on their website and all through their television broadcasts. I was thinking to myself, "s***, they're going pretty f*****g hard on China this week. They'll want some serious legal backup." As I recall they even stated that there were focussing on the issue for the week and would be posting more stories. It would seem like of strange for them not to bump a bit of the China spam when other news came up after they'd already been at it for a while.
09:08pm 18/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3282 posts
Holy macaroni batman, that's how you change the system!

Mr Macron’s political movement, created just 14 months ago, took 32% of the vote, ten points ahead of the Republicans. This puts it on course to win a crushing majority at the run-off with more than 400 of the 577 National Assembly seats (see chart)—one of the biggest under the Fifth Republic—that would squeeze the Republicans, sideline the far right and far left, and all but wipe out the Socialist Party, which could lose 90% of its seats.
https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20170617_FBC042.png
.

Emmanuel Macron’s democratic revolution
12:45am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
785 posts
I scan over ABC each morning and afternoon. I saw the Communist articles get coverage on ABC NEWS TV, and saw little special link up top right on http://www.abc.net.au/news/

Each time I saw them on http://www.abc.net.au/news/, they were pushed down below the fold on the front page. Some people saw opposite. I din't.

The overall result of exposure of the articles via ABC, didn't get into top for past week, or past month. Like I said, on one day they had broken London fires into about 5 stories (which was unusual for ABC) and the commy articles were down, down down, well below. It was the article about the University students pressured to dob in a non-commy, and to keep eye on their peers to ensure they pushed the commy agenda.

http://i.imgur.com/cSyZdpZ.jpg

Screen capped this morning.

Scrolling down the ABC News Facebook page I think we can see why those commy articles did not get the exposure they deserve. ABC News Facebook page appears selective in which articles get the exposure. The promoted a couple which aim to shame our government, rather than the more holistic issue of China pushing it's agenda through, university campuses, controlling Chinese news in Australia, etc etc.
07:42am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5380 posts
Oh you're one of those people who think the ABC is pro communist. Heh.

Meanwhile we have privately owned companies spreading this kind of propaganda.

http://i.imgur.com/9sdgGxJ.jpg
09:07am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
786 posts
Where is your list of the 146 https://www.politiplatform.com/trump that applies to us Vash?

I'll help. Lets pick 10 random ones:

What we get:

117 no
97 maybe, saying China is a currency manipulator
91 no
9 no
37 maybe, not really sure what it is
49 no
134 no
105 no
11 no
8 no

So, I have checked under your bed, and in the wardrobe. There are no Mr Trumps in there. It's all safe to go back to sleep.

I think we need to increase population in AU. Immigration is generally good. Scrutiny is warranted. We could be encouraging people who already live here, who are successful, educated, and intelligent to double or triple their current birth rates. Our human breeding funding programs seem to support the opposite.
09:20am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5381 posts
That 'Environment' section is rather brief. How surprising.
You know we live on the same planet right? I suppose you also put climate change in the spaghetti monster category. Another anti science nugget.
10:47am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
787 posts
We are burning a great deal of coal, to power the machine that hands 30% of income tax to welfare recipients.
11:24am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5382 posts
Oh so it's the sick & disadvantaged that are the problem. Gotcha.
Certainly not the vested interests that keeps energy production from moving to renewables.
11:54am 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12807 posts
Who is funding the sick and disadvantaged and why should they continue to do it here rather than pack up and move to a lower Taxing Economy ?
12:54pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5383 posts
Who is funding the sick and disadvantaged and why should they continue to do it here rather than pack up and move to a lower Taxing Economy ?


Taxpayers, the community. We're a social species aren't we? We're not in the ring of every man or woman for themselves, as your 'ideology' puts it. When every person chips in abit to ensure someone (maybe one of your family members?) is unable to work due to a medical condition or whatnot, we can get them on their feet again.
What would you prefer in your libertarian paradise?
01:32pm 19/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21278 posts
Taxpayers, the community. We're a social species aren't we? We're not in the ring of every man or woman for themselves, as your 'ideology' puts it. When every person chips in abit to ensure someone (maybe one of your family members?) is unable to work due to a medical condition or whatnot, we can get them on their feet again.
What would you prefer in your libertarian paradise?


very interested to see facey's reply to this one.
02:27pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25890 posts
something something bootstraps
02:46pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2077 posts
03:07pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25892 posts
I quite liked this one myself -

https://image.ibb.co/ikLxa5/daily_mail_fail.png
03:13pm 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12808 posts
A growing Economy funds the well being and care of a Society ]
Capitalism provides for the Welfare

Capitalism grows the pie to feed more
Socialism divides the pie to feed more

Socialism doesnt make the poor stronger, it makes the Government stronger and Capitalism weaker. Thats a bigger Car carrying more people with a smaller engine.





03:14pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
788 posts
Stolen watermelons :: 13/09/2004 Announcer: Mr Anderson told a party function, the Greens weren't a viable alternative to the major parties. John Anderson: ...actually they are a home for the people who in the 1950s would have joined the communist party. They are watermelons, many of them green on the outside and very, very, very red on the inside. -ABC Radio News, 6 September 2004.
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1198314.htm
03:15pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25893 posts
Care to post the context for your 13 year old transcript?
03:37pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5384 posts
A growing Economy funds the well being and care of a Society ]



I'll take that as you agree that welfare is essential in Capitalism, otherwise you end up with slums & huge amounts of crime.
04:36pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
789 posts
The context remains unchanged. We still have watermelons.
06:11pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39016 posts
The context remains unchanged. We still have watermelons.
you are just playing into the same tired bulls*** message that libertarian free market capitalist extremists have been pushing for a zillion years - if you give a s*** about other people, you're a communist socialist nutbag

Not wanting a return of an oligarchic ruling elite with Aristocracy 2.0 does not mean everyone wants socialism. It is absolutely vital that conservatives and capitalists realises this before it deteriorates even further into an us-vs-them situation, but it's also vital that liberals and "the left" realise it as well because their rhetoric is just as divisive. Most free market/capitalist types that I know don't /actually/ want an unregulated free market, outside of a handful of extremists, just like most social-good liberal types I know don't want a communist state.

The difference between these two groups is, I reckon, much much much MUCH F*****G SMALLER than the Internet would have people believe. But with everyone running around name calling, like you and Faceman are doing, by trying to polarise people as belonging to "The Other" while pretending your side is free of all evil... how do you think that helps?

I would be interested to see what people think we can do to curtail that kind of discussion. It's boring, irritating, pointless, and divisive, but worst of all doesn't make for interesting or informed debate; short of actually having someone (not me) just sit around and start deleting s*** every time someone makes a broad useless generalisation about 50% of the population's political motivations I'm not sure how to improve things.
06:34pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25894 posts
Just so I'm clear on your position, you think the greens are a bona fide communist party masquerading as a garden variety left political party?
07:46pm 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12809 posts
If name calling offends you perhaps you should stay out of Politics/Ideology.
Those who want Free Speech with rules have already decided the outcome.

...which is pretty much the game plan of Political Correctness/Cultural Marxism.



09:04pm 19/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2583 posts
Holy macaroni batman, that's how you change the system!


It'll be interesting to see how a party that was formed 14 months ago plays out. I seem to recall he wants to reduce state welfare in France, so it'll be interesting to see if he is actually able to do anything.

Hollende's party would be to the left of the Australian Labor party and when he tried to implement economic liberalization (or at least a strong left wing version) the s*** hit the fan.

*edit* which is to say a 14 month old party is likely to be unstable, as a well developed platform is unlikely to have been made yet.

if you give a s*** about other people, you're a communist socialist nutbag


The Greens aren't a communist party perse but they have no shortage of outright Marxists Trog, I know I've met them.

But even almighty wiki agrees. Lee Rhiannon is a communist

It is not
the same tired bulls*** message that libertarian free market capitalist extremists have been pushing for a zillion years


To point out a self identifying marxist is a marxist.
09:43pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39017 posts
haha nice strawman. Let me know when you want to have a discussion that you haven't copied from some psyops field manual on how to sow dissent amongst the proletariat. It must really toast your bagel that you've had a nearly completely uninterrupted run of vastly unmoderated free speech on this forum since you joined spouting totally ridiculous conspiracy theories.

As has been true since the dawn of time you're welcome to go start your own discussions with true free speech. You can look up the history of sites that have done that, just follow the smoking ruins.

You might think it's OK to hide behind free speech (which, by the way, this forum has quite obviously never ever pretended to offer) so you can do absolutely nothing but run around screaming SOCIALISM at everything but for those of us that actually want some nuance in our conversations it is old and boring. I'm not actively moderating or working on AusGamers at the moment so as much as I'd like to simply write a new rule and enforce a change just so I can have adult conversations, it's not for me to do.

So I have to rely on my "free speech" to try to engage you like a grown up and say, how can we have a proper conversation about this stuff without it degenerating into you anonymously name calling everyone in the most trite manner possible? Do you even want to? Or are you just going to scream FREE SPEECH at a request for reasonable discourse?
09:54pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
790 posts
I think we are going too far with the welfare, and the PC have too much of a voice. I understand we need to give poor people lots of money as it's cheaper than dealing with the crime, but we hand out too much welfare. The Green's and their communistic alliances are annoying. It's already become us v's them. The economic gap is growing. Also, people are ditching Labor and Liberal to vote at further ends to combat each other's views. The gap is continuing to grow. Religion can be attributed to most of it.

Do we need to dig up the "How to vote cards" from the Greens?

I'm all for improved discussion, but left wing circle jerking about the hair and antics of the political leader of a country on the other side of the planet deserves some spam.

Vash has come up with "the environment" out of Trumps 146 policies.

Watermelons is the term John Laws use to use. It has a place. Many people who vote Greens don't realise they are supporting communistic and socialist agendas.

PS: Hanson is up from 9% to 11%.
09:55pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39018 posts
The economic gap is growing.
So you want to double down on free market capitalism?! Why do you think the economic gap is growing? Because we're giving too much money as welfare?
I understand we need to give poor people lots of money as it's cheaper than dealing with the crime, but we hand out too much welfare.
Two questions:
1) How much is "enough" welfare (or, what is the "right amount")?
2) What numbers, facts or other data are you basing your opinion on? Massive curiousity on this point.
I'm all for improved discussion, but left wing circle jerking about the hair and antics of the political leader of a country on the other side of the planet deserves some spam.
once again /you/ are the one bringing up the hair thing
Many people who vote Greens don't realise they are supporting communistic and socialist agendas.
I vote Green and am actively opposed to communism and socialism - what do you mean by "many" people? How many?
10:04pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
791 posts
The gap is growing. Keep adding 3rd world unskilled, illiterate immigrants, and funding multi-generational welfare, and letting welfare hacks continue. It will keep growing.

Too much is 30% of all our income tax. It's too much.

Hey you just mentioned his hair.

At least a few. Vote what you like. It's a matter of perception. I'm in favour of privatisation for example.

On the commy scale I'd say it goes (from low to high) from major parties, Labor > Green > Communist party. That's my onion... and I'm not saying to anyone "You are a XXXX".

and why do I think it's all about religion? Because if someone could just politely ask the Israels to "Pack up, leave the wall and the other sacred sites and move off somewhere". Maybe they can go to America, they seem to fund and protect Israel so much. Let Palestine have it. We could all save a fortune on security, and welfare. It's not about oil, or pipelines. It's about Israel's interests. The locations are so vital to a protected species, and we are all paying for it. That's what I think.
10:32pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25895 posts
Sounds like a lot of your opinions are based on the feels there champ.
10:52pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39019 posts
Yeh man you're totally entitled to have an opinion but you haven't really qualified WHY you believe any of these things that you have said. Also you didn't really answer any of my questions :(
Keep adding 3rd world unskilled, illiterate immigrants
I also agree we don't generally want unskilled illiterate immigrants (with exceptions for humanitarian reasons obvy) - but it's basically impossible to immigrate to Australia without passing a basic literacy test if you're from a non-English native speaking country. So I don't rate this as a big concern really.
nd funding multi-generational welfare
this is a real genuine problem but short of stopping funding our aged population I don't know what you expect to happen here..?
Too much is 30% of all our income tax. It's too much.
What is an appropriate amount of income tax then? 29%? I am not asking these questions to be a d*** (that's just a side effect), I'm trying to find out what you propose as an alternative and what your alternative is based on.
and why do I think it's all about religion? Because if someone could just politely ask the Israels to "Pack up, leave the wall and the other sacred sites and move off somewhere". Maybe they can go to America, they seem to fund and protect Israel so much. Let Palestine have it. We could all save a fortune on security, and welfare. It's not about oil, or pipelines. It's about Israel's interests. The locations are so vital to a protected species, and we are all paying for it. That's what I think.
well Israel basically has f*** all to do with the current refugee crisis but I agree it is a total clusterf***. Where do you think they should move to, out of interest? I suspect you don't think they should move to Australia
11:29pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3285 posts
Sounds like you've been drinking too much neoliberal conservative cool aid nmag. Of course the problem is the poor stealing our monies, and not our dear friends the wealthy elite!

For sure Pete, no doubt it's risky and unstable, we'll have to wait and see what they can get done of course. You have to admit though, it's a pretty stunning peaceful political revolution. When people talk about changing the system, within the democratic bounds, you can't get much realer than that! They changed their entire government almost overnight. All with a radical centre party. Kudos to them I say, we need that kind of thing in the UK, US and Aus imo. Seems to me they're right about France's laborious labour laws constraining their economic growth, I was stunned by the unemployment rates. Agree it'll be a difficult if not impossible battle to change, but they gots a majority!

I thought this was an interesting read.

Greed is not good: social critic Stuart Sim on the indignities of neoliberal capitalism

According to a Pew Research Center study, income inequality in the United States is as high as it’s been since 1928, just before the Great Depression. The trendlines are similar in Europe.

The villain in Sim’s story is neoliberalism, the prevailing economic ideology of our time. In the past three decades or so, he argues, policymakers have embraced four overlapping principles:

The government’s role in public services like health care and education should be diminished as much as possible.
Government regulations should be maximally eliminated.
Good and services should be privatized whenever possible.
Free enterprise should be completely liberated from regulatory bonds.

The promise of neoliberalism, Sim says, was that the market would deliver benefits for everyone. But instead, it has incentivized greed, glorified competition, and concentrated wealth in fewer and fewer hands.
05:40am 20/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2584 posts
Macron is a big deal. But he is proposing labour market reform and that doesn't have a strong history of success in France. Ironically enough he is proposing archetypal neoliberal labour market reforms.

Googled Stuart Sim, imagine my shock to discover Stuart Sim is a post-marxist. (let me do you a favour, it means marxist). And a post-structuralist (urgg).

Take a wild guess what I think of his opinion on anything.

The market has delivered massive benefits for everyone. don't make me link to Venezuela's inflation rate. Cause I will.

It is absolutely vital that conservatives and capitalists realises this before it deteriorates even further into an us-vs-them situation, but it's also vital that liberals and "the left" realise it as well because their rhetoric is just as divisive


Equally I think if you preach centrism, you should at least be able to point out where the center is.
07:16am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
792 posts
In America there is more of an issue with the range from poverty to rich, and in UK. We get bombarded with US and UK news. It's not as bad here, but it's nice to think the rich are exploiting people. It's the rich who want the 3rd world illiterates here. It helps hold lower end wages down. You think we don't have illiterates coming in? We are still paying for the ones that the Fraser gov let in, in the 1970's.

The same people voting to open borders, are complaining about how hard it is to get into the real-estate market, and how lower end wages are not going up fast enough, There are people who think "I'll just vote for the Greens, they seem more honest, they care for the environment and these major parties can't be trusted." Many people won't read policies, they can't even manage their household budget. It's not unusual to see a person broadcast that they proudly vote green because it's PC and sounds so warm and nice.

Much less than 30% of our income tax. Vash is talking about people (maybe my family) might need welfare one day if they are out of work. Maybe he does not realise that if you have worked hard and smart enough with money to have assets, you can't get welfare if you find yourself not employed for a period.

Multi-generational welfare, are an institution. no vote.

Bump vote age up to 21.

Criminals in prison, no vote. Violent criminals, sterilisation to prevent having more children,

Found convicted of terror related crime, not just the individual, but their whole immediate family (mum dad, brothers, sisters), all kicked out of country.

Reduce the religious and charity tax havens.

Stop allowing foreign investment in property.

Reduce the gambling culture.

I already said Israel could pack up and move to America, hand it over to Palestine.

I don't think here Democracy is perfect though. Three reasons:
>If you live in an area that is not marginal, the politicians don't throw as much funding at that area.
>Lobbying with donations enables big business to manipulate government. This donation thing to political parties is crap.
>Stick with the voted leader. With our local democracy it's annoying how much time they spend in-fighting over party leadership and reshuffles. If there was less of that, they might be more focused on serving the people.

well Israel basically has f*** all to do with the current refugee crisis


Yes it does. Basically, the west over-interfering in the middle east is a driver of extremism and resentment. It's one of the two main reasons for the hate on the west. The other reason for the hate is that the religion and culture tells them they are outstanding, however they are generally oppressed.. so who to blame again? The west. Can we even begin to think about how much money, lives, and disruption, it's costs to have the west (mostly America) helping Israel maintain this western strategic outpost in the middle of Muslim heartland over the decades, and it continues. Maybe there are descendants from Israel in very powerful places who want Israel protected no matter the cost?

This video doesn't seem over biased: https://youtu.be/s9xfK92Zv68

and another, similar: https://youtu.be/QyqUPYiP7tI

https://youtu.be/-mBLhc-Vzwc

The west interfering in middle east is the reason we have pissed off Muslims. Look at who runs mainstream media, Hollywood, who owns the most expensive land in even Australia, they have the power to lobby, and they lobby to protect Israel... we generally get the "Israel" view of the whole thing.
08:37am 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5385 posts
The market has delivered massive benefits for everyone. don't make me link to Venezuela's inflation rate. Cause I will.


Well that would be a dumb thing to do because Marxism isn't about the Government taking control of the economy. You seem to fail to grasp that, but that's ok.
How about i link you Zimbabwe's inflation rate? Or Greece's woes? And the vast amount of poverty world wide in market based economies?

Government decisions can f*** things up, regardless of the economic system.
08:41am 20/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2078 posts

Nmag are you worried about agrarian socialists?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/bob-katter-the-man-with-friends-in-odd-places-20130314-2g2m1.html

In his office, Katter sits under a picture of the Country party’s legendary leader, Jack McEwen, the high priest of protectionism. Katter himself is proud to be called an “agrarian socialist”.


So many reds under the beds.

I like it how Nmag complains about no handouts if you're not in a marginal seat yet hates welfare. Why doesn't your seat just pull itself up by the bootstraps instead of relying on government?


09:28am 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9440 posts
Stolen watermelons :: 13/09/2004 Announcer: Mr Anderson told a party function, the Greens weren't a viable alternative to the major parties. John Anderson: ...actually they are a home for the people who in the 1950s would have joined the communist party. They are watermelons, many of them green on the outside and very, very, very red on the inside. -ABC Radio News, 6 September 2004.


So your argument is that because people who would have supported the communist party now join the Greens, the Greens must be bad? S***, that's about as absurd as saying that because people who would have joined the Nazi party in the 30s and 40s now join the Republican or Liberal party, that those parties must be bad!
09:29am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
793 posts
I like it how Nmag complains about no handouts if you're not in a marginal seat yet hates welfare. Why doesn't your seat just pull itself up by the bootstraps instead of relying on government?


Nah I'm not talking just from my own interests here. I had this whole concept explained to me by a wealthy Christian Iraqi pro monarchy business owner who lives in a secure Labor seat. He explained how his seat is so secure, govt don't put in large infrastructure. The money goes to the marginal seats where they need to win votes. My area is nice, we worked hard, and made sacrifices.

So your argument is that because people who would have supported...


Well that's the general flavour, but to state that either is 'bad' is biased, they all have merits. It all depends on perspective, that's why our govt has seats, so there is a proportion of representation from the various views on bills. In the same flavour we can consider that there are many people who simply vote (or start out that way) whatever their parents voted. So, political views are in some ways transferred from parent to child. Much in the same way government employed school teachers, who embraced the left perspective at university may attempt to instil some left wing PC views onto primary school children. Much the way powerful trade unions will use union communication to encourage members how to vote. Like trades in some ways are handed down generations, so is political bias. Much the same way religion is passed down generation to generation. Much the same way a hatred of the west interfering and messing up the region is passed down from affected communities. These things tend to be passed down.

Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there. What are some that you want? More welfare, more investigations of corporate crime, save the environment, free train travel, no pay to use road tolls, open borders, stop mining, stop farming, stop eating animals, stop importing or exporting animals, increase international welfare, free university, increase pay for teachers & nurses, or equal pay for all, more free health.

I think the Justice system could do with a workout.
09:51am 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9441 posts
Well that's the general flavour, but to state that either is 'bad' is biased, they all have merits.

I'm reasonably confident that any 'merits' the Nazi party may have had is rather cancelled out by the pursuit of the world being populated solely by a race of blonde haired, blue eyed people - even if that does mean I get a free pass. If your argument is going to be "Well yes, that bits bad, but what about this other thing", no. That's when people need to stop listening to you - there's no ifs and buts on that kind of s***, and you don't get to defend it based on a caveat or other aspects.
11:29am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
794 posts

Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there.

You have taken an extreme from 'all' so I find your contribution poor. To answer your earlier nit picking better:

I believe there have been elements in Green policy that align with communistic views.

I believe external communist influence is understated.

An influence-and-control operation by the Communist Party Part of this campaign involves attempts to influence Australian politicians via political donors closely aligned with the Communist Party — something that causes serious concern to Australia's security agency, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). But some of the 1 million ethnic Chinese living in Australia are also targets of the Communist Party's influence operations. On university campuses, in the Chinese-language media and in some community groups, the party is mounting an influence-and-control operation among its diaspora that is far greater in scale and, at its worst, much nastier than any other nation deploys. In China, it is known as qiaowu. Some analysts argue the party's efforts are mostly benign, ham-fisted or ineffective. Former Australian ambassador to China Geoff Raby stresses that influence operations are conducted by many countries. He singles out Israel as an example.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-04/the-chinese-communist-partys-power-and-influence-in-australia/8584270

Again, Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there.
11:41am 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12811 posts
Marxism isn't about the Government taking control of the economy


...and where are your merry Men ?

Israel is not responsible for the problems with Islam and the Middle East.
Islam is.

If the poor are increasing after decades of increasingly Socialist policies then, I dunno, maybe Socialism doesnt work ? Maybe Socialism works well for those who promote it ?

Sounds a bit like Religion.
12:11pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9442 posts
It's not nit-picking when we're criticising the foundation of the rationale and arguments you're using.

I am putting comments out there. My comments are sufficiently volumous in just replying to the drivel some of you lot manage to come out with when it comes to policy and political position, often poorly grounded.
12:14pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9443 posts
If the poor are increasing after decades of increasingly Socialist policies then, I dunno, maybe Socialism doesnt work ? Maybe Socialism works well for those who promote it ?


That's like saying that efforts to reduce global warming arn't working because temperatures keep increasing even though we continue to increasingly adopt renewable energy sources.

You know very well that the problems with capitalist ideals are being further abused and are causing the gap to widen. Socialist ideas are being attempted to reduce the damage done by capitalist following and abuse, but the limited implementation of contrasting policies can not keep up with the damage being done.
12:16pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
795 posts
It's not nit-picking when we're criticising the foundation of the rationale and arguments you're using. I am putting comments out there. My comments are sufficiently volumous in just replying to the drivel some of you lot manage to come out with when it comes to policy and political position, often poorly grounded.


I challenge Vash and fpot to the "tell us what you want" challenge. After going back a few pages it appears most content is Trumphobia, or pollytainment.

Vash, what do your friends who wear the masks want when they go to these protests? What do they want? Are they protesting against other people marching, or are they wanting something in particular, besides silencing people who could be far (any)wing nutcases.
12:42pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5387 posts
They want what any well adjusted person wants, without looking at it as a left vs right thing.

More equal distribution of wealth, non discrimination of people based on their racial background nor religion, and policy based more on fact & science than on feelings.

An example of people requiring masks were the protests at villawood detention center. People were defending this Iraqi person who would face certain death at deportation. Certain groups actually showed up and threatened death on the protestors just for showing humanity. Lunacy.

Media and Politicians ensure the conversation is magnified on a narrow narrative, as Chomsky's Manufacturing consent details. Such as Terrorism, Muslims, Immigrants and people on welfare.

What we really should be concentrating on and not being apathetic about, is how much wealth is moving away from lower & middle classes despite increases in productivity. And those same people caused the 2008 GFC. Capitalist greed will continue without change.
01:11pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
796 posts
Fair enough.
02:12pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12812 posts
Vashs AntiFa cohorts are "fashionable non-conformists" as Ayn Rand would call them.

Capitalism doesnt discriminate Vash.
You and your friends dont have the Right to confiscate the wealth of others just because you feel you are deserved something. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.

Morally, the promise of an impossible “right” to economic security is an infamous attempt to abrogate the concept of rights. It can and does mean only one thing: a promise to enslave the men who produce, for the benefit of those who don’t.

“If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.”


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/welfare_state.html

03:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16754 posts
You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.

The ... workers?
03:42pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5388 posts
You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.


I agree. I thank the workers that create the wealth for business & shareholders. Unfortunately they're not aware of how much they're being exploited today.
03:44pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12813 posts
Plenty of workers in Venezuela
How can they be starving ??

This is the hardest thing to get through peoples skulls about Adani.
The Mine creates Jobs that were never there.
That creates Jobs for those who supply the Mine
Those that feed the workers
Those that maintain the trucks the gear
But without Adani none of those things exist.

Those workers might as well be living in Venezuela.

04:13pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2079 posts
Pretty sure nationalising your country's resources is turning out pretty well in Norway.
04:26pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5389 posts
There's the ole Venezuela mentioned again.

Plenty of workers in Africa.
How can they be starving ??

This is the hardest thing to get through to peoples skulls about renewables.
Renewables create jobs that were never there.
04:28pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5390 posts

https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/hot-weather-is-getting-deadlier-due-to-climate-change

Right now, about 30 percent of the world’s population is exposed to deadly temperatures at least 20 days out of the year. By 2100, that number could reach 74 percent if greenhouse gas emissions continue to rise, or 48 percent with drastic cuts to global emissions. The findings have been published in Nature Climate Change. We spoke with Iain Caldwell, one of the study’s authors, to learn more.


This is partly why Chomsky claims the Republican party maybe the most dangerous organisation on earth, for the scope of damage their policy will have on humanity over the next century.
04:59pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39021 posts
This is the hardest thing to get through peoples skulls about Adani.
The Mine creates Jobs that were never there.
That creates Jobs for those who supply the Mine
Those that feed the workers
Those that maintain the trucks the gear
But without Adani none of those things exist.
haha wat

any a****** can make a bunch of jobs if they borrow a billion dollars

you've missed the point by so much further than usual. people aren't objecting to the mine because they're scared of job creation.

Why is it you're 100% OK with socialism when it's government money getting spent on coal mines? What other exceptions are there to your "socialism is bad" credo?!
06:01pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39022 posts
Nmag, I'd note that you are not addressing the specific issues or questions that are getting raised in response to things you're writing. You're kind of just working around them in your responses and stating a bunch of other opinions. I recommend using the QUOTE tag to carve out bits you want to reply to so we can have a conversation (put QUOTE and /QUOTE in point brackets around stuff you're addressing).
In America there is more of an issue with the range from poverty to rich, and in UK. We get bombarded with US and UK news. It's not as bad here, but it's nice to think the rich are exploiting people. It's the rich who want the 3rd world illiterates here. It helps hold lower end wages down. You think we don't have illiterates coming in? We are still paying for the ones that the Fraser gov let in, in the 1970's.
I'm sure there are a few but the simple fact is there are already laws that stop people immigrating into this country if they are not literate and cannot speak English. I believe there is talk of toughening them up but the existing laws are fine for me.
The same people voting to open borders, are complaining about how hard it is to get into the real-estate market, and how lower end wages are not going up fast enough,
I'm pretty sure the impoverished refugees that you're referring to are not the ones driving up the housing market. The overriding concern in the housing market is not because we're filling up with refugees.
Much less than 30% of our income tax.
OK so can we agree you don't know what the "right" tax rate is? You just know 30% is too high, but you don't know why you think it's too high.

I don't know what the right rate is either but I know you can't just toss out 30% as a number without thinking about things like regressive taxes. 30% for a rich person is nothing; 30% for a person is a huge deal. Surely you don't think all people should pay the same rate?!
Vash is talking about people (maybe my family) might need welfare one day if they are out of work. Maybe he does not realise that if you have worked hard and smart enough with money to have assets, you can't get welfare if you find yourself not employed for a period.
Yes well welfare isn't there to help those who have money and assets, it's there to keep people from starving in the streets in the hope they can get back on their feet and become productive members of society.
The west interfering in middle east is the reason we have pissed off Muslims.
I don't think anyone disagrees with that but generally they seem to be pissed off anyway because of subtle differences in their skybeard beliefs.
06:15pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39023 posts
I believe there have been elements in Green policy that align with communistic views.
For example...?!

Bear in mind that when someone was s***ting on Trump, you just pasted a link to his policy page and say "see, all Trump's policies are fine". So I will do the same: Greens policies. (Hint: The most communist thing I can see is Economics/12: "Natural monopolies and essential public services should generally be in public ownership." ... which I wholeheartedly agree with.
06:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12814 posts
Hmmm let me think about this...

Its wrong for Government to offer incentives for Businesses to develop resources because that would create Jobs and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services

as opposed to

Making Electricity unaffordable and demolishing Jobs.

HOUSEHOLDS will pocket $3 billion in power-price subsidies over the next four years, with the Queensland Government’s coffers flush with a windfall from coal royalties.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/power-bills-cut-for-queenslands-lowincome-earners-using-coal-cash/news-story/8f4969fba25e6754e9bfecafe57dbcaa

Struggle St cant afford Power Bill increases, they Vote.
The LNP are talking about building a new Coal Power Station in North QLD
Australian businesses with crushing Power Bills will move to QLD and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/lnp-pledges-to-fasttrack-a-coalfired-baseload-power-station/news-story/a1f9915a6e0b15fdaef2820f3397816a


06:43pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
797 posts
I'm not going to be copy pasting dissecting and replying to ongoing questions of detail. It's about concept not numbers.

30% for a rich person is nothing; 30% for a person is a huge deal. Surely you don't think all people should pay the same rate?


Nah you miss read what I typed. 30% of our income tax goes to welfare. If you pay 60k income tax, 20k is going to welfare. Seems high to me.

OK so can we agree you don't know what the "right" tax rate is? You just know 30% is too high, but you don't know why you think it's too high.


Your tone could do with review if you expect answers to your questions. You should know we a have scaled system. No tax till about 20k, then it goes up in brackets. If you earn a great deal you get to pay more. If you choose to work 5 days instead of 3 you get penalised.
06:55pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39026 posts
Its wrong for Government to offer incentives for Businesses to develop resources because that would create Jobs and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services
This is literally exactly what welfare is, except for people instead of businesses. So I'm glad we agree welfare is necessary(?)

I don't really get the rest of your post sorry. My point was that people aren't opposed to coal mining because they hate job creation and money created through export. They're opposed to it because people don't want staggering amounts of support for the fossil fuel industry any more.

Banks though.. they seem to be opposed to it because they think it is legit financially not viable. So if that is the case do you think governments should step in to cover the shortfall? If it's profitable and will make heaps of money and jobs for everyone shouldn't that be something the private sector is falling all over itself to get into, especially while debt is so cheap?!
06:57pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39027 posts
I'm not going to be copy pasting dissecting and replying to ongoing questions of detail. It's about concept not numbers.
Yes well I am trying to understand why you believe the concepts you do. Because ultimately you must think the way you do because of some base level of facts, right? And so far I feel like your responses are light on facts and strong on, as fpot says, feels. So I'm hoping that by trying to discuss facts in the cold hard light of day we might be able to agree on a base reality from which we can have a proper discussion.
Nah you miss read what I typed. 30% of our income tax goes to welfare. If you pay 60k income tax, 20k is going to welfare. Seems high to me.
OK I see what you are saying now. (Hard to follow without the quotes).

By the way if you're paying 60k income tax you're earning about 200k/year. So 10% of your actual income is going to support those on welfare (which includes the aged, disabled, etc).

I almost certainly agree with you that there is fat in the system that could be trimmed. But my question, as it has been for the last few attempts, is the same: how much do you think is appropriate to be spending?
Your tone could do with review if you expect answers to your questions.
How you interpret my tone is on you; I thought that was pretty neutral considering I've asked you a bunch of direct questions and so far you've not really answered any of them :D

FWIW I have no expectations. I am pretty confident I won't change your mind (most science shows that conversations like this are totally counter-productive and will probably leave you walking away believing in your beliefs even harder than before. That is of course not what I want but I simply can't help myself and enjoy trying to understand why people think the way they do. I thank you for your patience in answering so far because most people usually have given up by this point.
07:05pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
798 posts
you just pasted a link to his policy page and say "see, all Trump's policies are fine


I posted a link to his policies and said something like "show me which ones impact on Australia".

You're misreading again.
09:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39028 posts
I posted a link to his policies and said something like "show me which ones impact on Australia".

You're misreading again.
Not sure about that. Someone posted something about Trump's policies that you took exception to and asked for evidence. Then you posted something about the Greens policies (i.e., saying they are communist-ish) that I took exception to and just asked for clarification. I was drawing a parallel.

Anyway, that is not really the important part. I will happily admit to misreading if we can move on to the question about what bits of the Greens policies you think are communist.

The reason I am really interested in this is because when I made that little voting tool a few years ago it had a bunch of policy questions and a bunch of people emailed me saying that it was broken because it told them they should vote Green. People were simply stunned to find out that their policy preferences overlapped so strongly with the Greens. So I have this belief now that many people simply don't know what the policies are of basically any of the parties outside of a few key issues that are focused on by our mutual enemy, The Media

edit: I should stress I'm not a die hard greens supporter. They have policies that I think are dumb too (e.g., their anti-nuclear stance, although it's kind of irrelevant given none of the other parties are exactly pro nuclear). If they exhibited an even remotely communist tendency I would jump ship in a heartbeat. But I have not seen anything like that.
10:09pm 20/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2585 posts
How about i link you Zimbabwe's inflation rate? Or Greece's woes?


you mean marxist revolutionary mugabe's zimbabwe. Tell me more please.

Or Greece's totally unsustainable social spending program. Please go on.

Just remarkable.
10:36pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3286 posts
^^ I lol'd.

Yah Macron has an impossible mission for sure, I eagerly await the results. Didn't seem to me his policies were overtly neoliberal in nature, he's after free markets and globalism but with reasonable socialistic regulation I thought. I'll go have a look. I'm not sure where the centre is anymore tbh, where do you think it is?
03:27am 21/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5391 posts


you mean marxist revolutionary mugabe's zimbabwe. Tell me more please.

Or Greece's totally unsustainable social spending program. Please go on.

Just remarkable.


Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.
06:45am 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39029 posts
Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.
Are you a free market economy if your government is running up totally unsustainable debt in the background? What is that called? (aside from "western civilisation" ahahahaa)
07:08am 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2586 posts
I'd say Macron is close to my estimation of centerist, but It has to be noted that
he's after free markets and globalism


Is neo-liberal in my view. He has been pretty clear that labor market reform in France has to happen and he is pushing for a Keating style reform.


The Greens are not a garden variety left party any more than one nation are a garden variety right party. They are much further apart than labour and liberal (who fwiw I think are further apart than the general Australian population).

But something that does drive me up the wall is their tolerance of Marxism. I can't be bothered running through policies because I have already, but their view on IP is boardline Marxist, and seriously economically illiterate. In particular their view on Plant Breeders Rights is verging on Lysenkoism.

lee rhiannon is a communist, she was a member of the communist party. That is exactly as acceptable as an unrepentant nazi being elected to parliament. but for what ever reason Marxism gets viewed with kid gloves, despite overwhelming evidence its at least as dangerous as Nazism, and probably far more so.

Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.


Holy s*** Vash. 18 words to to self defeating station all a board. That has to be a record. If irony had a physical weight, you could club a seal pup to death with that vash.
07:45am 21/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25896 posts
The Greens are as bad as nazis, gotcha.
07:54am 21/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5392 posts
Are you a free market economy if your government is running up totally unsustainable debt in the background? What is that called? (aside from "western civilisation" ahahahaa)


Certainly not Marxism as PP chants on about. It's Government spending getting out of control, simple as that. But it's Socialism because they're spending too much! /yawn

Also, Government not having any debt isn't desirable, as much as having too much is.

08:09am 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2080 posts

So many reds under the beds in Aussie politics. Watch out!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society

The Australian Fabians (also known as the Australian Fabian Society) was established in 1947. Inspired by the Fabian Society in the United Kingdom, it is dedicated to Fabianism, the focus on the advancement of socialist ideas through gradual influence and patiently promoting socialist ideals to intellectual circles and groups with power.
Notable members:
Prime Ministers
Gough Whitlam (ALP Prime Minister 1972–75)
Bob Hawke (ALP Prime Minister 1983–1991)
Paul Keating (ALP Prime Minister 1991–1996)
Julia Gillard (ALP Prime Minister 2010– 2013)


09:43am 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
799 posts
The anonymously made spreadsheet pol has some curious things going on. However I missed the whole discussion. Maybe debunked. I don't really care.

> Greens and Socialists have addressed more policy subjects that any other parties. Good on them.
> Greens and Socialists have so many the same.
> Nationals, Labor, and Liberals have so many blanks? What have they been doing? They should address these important issues.
> So many blanks for migration with OneNation?

And my answer is still "less".. But hey I made a mistake Trog, in your favour. I said "30% of income tax" and then something about "20k in 60k", which is wrong, it's less than 20k.

If I find the source. It explains where the other 70% of our income tax goes, and illustrates my point a bit better.

That 30% won't get into the pockets of the people who need it. Most likely, like most donation type systems, up to 70 & 80% can be chewed up in the "administrative costs".
10:51am 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2081 posts
11:05am 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
800 posts
I'll have a look later. Thanks. The one I saw was on our Tax Return when some money comes back. I think everyone (who pays income tax, and put in a return) would have got it.
11:33am 21/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9446 posts
Plenty of workers in Venezuela
How can they be starving ??

If you think what's going on in Venezuela is to do with socialism, you're (mostly) mistaken. Venezuelas problems are largely because they relied on state-owned oil exports to provide income for all of the countries citizens, and then the oil market tanked with them having nothing to fall back on as an export. It'd be like if gas, coal or oil exports dried up out of Australia - at least we have wool, meat, milk, grain and other exports to fall back on. Who they're owned by is irrelevant.
12:08pm 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39031 posts
If I find the source. It explains where the other 70% of our income tax goes, and illustrates my point a bit better.
yeh I know the source - every Australian tax payer gets the breakdown when they file their tax. I actually still have mine on my desktop as I've only just finished filing for 2016 (ARGH). FWIW the percentage for my tax that was welfare was 39%. So same as in the above image.

I am sure there is administrative waste but 70%-80% is a number you literally plucked out of your ass and it's important that you acknowledge that because if you continue to think that you will be operating under some pretty big misconceptions.

The first link I can find in a half-assed look is an article from the Australian which says it's "14 per cent of total government spending and about 16 per cent of its revenues".

Is that "too much"? Who knows. There will obviously be a lot of waste in there. I suspect it's a bit higher now (numbers are from 2015).

The important thing isn't that there IS administrative overhead though - that is inevitable; the important thing is that we continue to strive for the right balance between administrative waste caused by these programmes and not having them at all. So (IMO) our focus should be on transparency and accountability of our officials, not randomly trying to drop the amount of tax we pay because we think it's "too high". Everyone always wants to pay less tax! I'd like to pay less tax!
05:58pm 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39032 posts
I should add:

The concept of constantly moving back and forth on issues as we circle around an unattainable perfect ideal is starting to dominate my thinking in almost everything these days. It is clear that for many questions there is not one single right answer. Some issues are simply too complicated for people to deal with or even understand, and many of these it's impossible for us to come to any sort of agreement.

We are pulled "left" and "right" (to use those simplistic terms that I hate to define political viewpoints) by the extremes on both sides. In the "middle" there are still people that lean one way or the other. So there is a constant back and forth happening as various sides raise their view points, introduce new evidence, are swayed by new events and (less often) new facts.

For example: many issues today are being framed in the context of the threat of terrorism. The Australian government (and the UK one) believe an appropriate response is to start snooping on all our communications, something they're trying to get legislation through in order to do (this will fail).

So there is a tug-of-war going on here - a push by the government to try to convince us that we'll be more secure if we give up some of our privacy, and others pushing back saying it is an ineffective violation of our civil rights.

All I'm trying to say here is that in the context of welfare payments, of course it would be great if none of us had to pay as much tax to keep old people, poor people and disabled people from dying in the street (because make no mistake, at some point this is what we are talking about here). But we also don't expect them to get free government money and live in luxury at the cost of everyone else. And we certainly don't expect our bureaucrats to be skimming a percentage off the top (I learned a new black burning hatred of middlemen while in the US), but we must acknowledge that there is a price to be paid in order to have people providing these services.

We just need to strive to keep them accountable and honest and make sure they're doing the best job they can with the resources that we give them. And that requires as much understanding of the facts as we can spare time to have in our busy lives which are spent working so we can pay for all this stuff.
06:12pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
802 posts

Yes, I'm not serious about the administrative costs. More an opportunity to slip in that people who donate to international aid could be in for a shock if they knew the admin costs. It's an outrage that Choice Magazine has done articles on. The actual admin costs are very low for welfare and can be seen looking at the link from Sir Redhat.

^ You can get a pretty detailed breakdown here. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-03/budget-2016-sliced-diced-interactive/7363834#spending/breakdown/2017/social-security-and-welfare


06:29pm 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2587 posts
I think I've found something more around your reading comprehension levels fpot.


If you think what's going on in Venezuela is to do with socialism, you're (mostly) mistaken. Venezuelas problems are largely because they relied on state-owned oil exports to provide income for all of the countries citizens, and then the oil market tanked with them having nothing to fall back on as an export. It'd be like if gas, coal or oil exports dried up out of Australia - at least we have wool, meat, milk, grain and other exports to fall back on. Who they're owned by is irrelevant.


I think you are really wrong about this.

For a start, the state owned oil company you're talking about was nationalized by the current government for straightforwardly marxist reasons. They then also went on the mother of all spending sprees and issued some spastic amount of debt, guaranteed against the state oil revenue.

They expanded the number of people employed by the oil company from around 20,000 to over 100,000 again for plainly marxist reasons, destroying the profitability of the company in the process.

They then introduced price controls on basic commodities and then funded the price controls by issues more debt (again standard marxist approach)

By preventing private capital from diversifying the economy they then became reliant totally on oil revenue. And then the oil price tanked.

The reason Australia has other industries to fall back on is because the state has a minimal hand in Australian industry.

So actually the state ownership of their oil company plays a critical role in their current predicament, and the reason the oil is stated owned is precisely because they are socialist/marxist. a privately owned company is simply incapable of creating the debt issue which is critical to the current state of affairs.

Moreover their marxist/socialist policy in relation to "price controls" directly exacerbate the problem.

You can lay Venezuela's woes directly at the feet of socialism.
08:27pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9447 posts
As I said before - Venezuela's problem had nothing to do with who owned or made profit from the oil. Their problem was that they used oil as a sole source of income, and had nothing of significance to prop them up when noone wanted to buy oil from them anymore. This would have happened whether it was BP owning the fields and employing 100,000 people locally, or if they were the government as they were. Petroleum was a massive 95% of the entire countries exports - in fact, more official figures put it at 98.6%.

For a comparison I attempted to come up with a comparison as if that were Australia - to list the combination of everything we export that would make up 95% of our exports, and I can't come close. Iron ore only is 20%. Mining in total - all minerals - is about 50%. But it's a huge, varied list of minerals. Their next biggest export was gold - not even $1b worth of it. Australia exports $12b of gold annually, and that only makes up 6.6% of our exports.

Socialism was not the problem here - a reliance on a single commodity as a source of income in a global market with numerous competitors that underwent a drastic change - that was the problem. Actually, no, that's not fair. It was just plain stupid to run an entire country on a single export commodity.

last edited by Raven at 20:47:52 21/Jun/17
08:46pm 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2588 posts
yeah but to reach that conclusion Raven you have to ignore the government debt that was being used to fund pricing controls. And the fact BP would never have allowed oil infrastructure to cost money to run. (way more money than it is capable of making).

The oil price collapsing wouldn't have caused the issues it did if their insane debt levels had not suddenly became totally impossible to service.

Price controls around basic commodities as well as capital restrictions (which are marxist policy ideas) are the reason Venezuela doesn't have a diversified economy and Australia not having those things is the reason we do. Saying ownership is irrelevant because its just a matter of over reliance on a single export and therefore its not socialism's fault, overlooks the critical role socialist economic policy plays in them being over reliant on a single export.

It is not a case that "anyone" owning the state oil company would have seen the same outcome.

The reason they are totally f***ed, is the fact the state nationalised the oil company, destroyed its productivity and borrowed against oil in the ground to fund price controls which in turn prevented the economy diversifying itself.

it's the combination of state ownership and the socialist policy suite it enabled (that simply would not be possible under a private ownership model) that is the cause of their issues.
09:10pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2082 posts

They expanded the number of people employed by the oil company from around 20,000 to over 100,000 again for plainly marxist reasons, destroying the profitability of the company in the process.

They then introduced price controls on basic commodities and then funded the price controls by issues more debt (again standard marxist approach)


Would love a Karl Marx quote where he directed this
12:47am 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2589 posts
are you seriously suggesting that centralised government price controls are not a straightforward application of marxist principles?

And that the expansion of employment because it really belongs to the workers anyway is inconstant with marxist thinking?

or are you just dumb
06:52am 22/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2083 posts
Yeah it's coming back to me now, Marx definately said expand the workforce even if it leads to inefficiencies.

You call out Vash for not reading Marx but you just splash around "marxist principles" when really you mean fail versions of communism. It's the same as Facemans "cultural marxism"
07:18am 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2590 posts
You can't possibly be serious.

Of course Marx never said or implied efficiency isn't the goal of production. Its just every single country that has applied his principles did that for kicks. Has nothing to do with the labour theory of value. just a total coincidence.



Edit
Oh there it is.

it wasn't really marxism.

That didn't take long.

You are dumb

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say it isn't coming back to you because you didn't read it in the first place
07:23am 22/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2084 posts
I haven't read all his texts, but I have read the communist manifesto and das kapital. There was a lot about class struggle and workers owning the means of production, but not much on what you labelled as "marxist".

You should start with the manifesto, it's a short read and shouldn't take you long.

Your insults are hilarious and probably come from you being frustrated with your own weak arguments.
09:12am 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
804 posts

Top billing on ABC News this morning. Above Origin, we have two articles on how nasty Hanson is.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-21/pauline-hanson-under-fire-repulsive-bigoted-comments-autism/8640328

What comment did she make that was "repulsive, bigoted' per the click bait heading.

We already do attempt to segregate based on educational ability just like we do in competitive sport. I get the feeling some people don't like competition. An army moves as fast as it's slowest members.

Key points: Children with disabilities putting strain on teachers, schools, Senator Hanson says Other children 'held back' by teachers spending time with children with disabilities, she says No evidence to support Senator Hanson's claims, disability advocate says
"These kids have a right to an education, by all means, but, if there are a number of them, these children should go into a special classroom and be looked after and given that special attention," she said. "Most of the time the teacher spends so much time on them they forget about the child who is straining at the bit and wants to go ahead in leaps and bounds in their education. "That child is held back by those others, because the teachers spend time with them. "I am not denying them. If it were one of my children I would love all the time given to them to give them those opportunities. But it is about the loss for our other kids. "I think that we have more autistic children, yet we are not providing the special classrooms or the schools for these autistic children. "It is no good saying that we have to allow these kids to feel good about themselves and that we do not want to upset them and make them feel hurt. "I understand that, but we have to be realistic at times and consider the impact this is having on other children in the classroom."


"repulsive, bigoted' (political reporters Jane Norman and Eliza Borrello)

I think there will be evidence.


09:55am 22/06/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
731 posts
To be fair, ABC's title had 'bigoted' in quotations, clearly identifying it as a quote from someone. That someone was Autism Australia chief executive Nicole Rogerson.

We already do attempt to segregate based on educational ability just like we do in competitive sport. I get the feeling some people don't like competition. An army moves as fast as it's slowest members.

...what the f*** are you on about? Read the article. No evidence that shows removing retards from classrooms has any effect on other students learning capabilities. It disadvantages the disabled kids and does nothing else to benefit anyone. Also, if you think competition is grand, why segregate the kids, scared they're gonna whoop your kids ass because of their retard strength?

P.S where do we segregate people on their educational abilities?
01:00pm 22/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25900 posts
I think I've found something more around your reading comprehension levels fpot.
whoa dude. Total bazinga.

The Greens are not a garden variety left party any more than one nation are a garden variety right party. They are much further apart than labour and liberal (who fwiw I think are further apart than the general Australian population).

But something that does drive me up the wall is their tolerance of Marxism. I can't be bothered running through policies because I have already, but their view on IP is boardline Marxist, and seriously economically illiterate. In particular their view on Plant Breeders Rights is verging on Lysenkoism.

lee rhiannon is a communist, she was a member of the communist party. That is exactly as acceptable as an unrepentant nazi being elected to parliament. but for what ever reason Marxism gets viewed with kid gloves, despite overwhelming evidence its at least as dangerous as Nazism, and probably far more so.


The greens are not a normal left party. They have borderline (boardline heh maybe you should read a Spot book or two) marxist policies. One of their members was a member of the communist party and is also a marxist. Marxists are probably far more dangerous than nazis. What part did I misread?
02:45pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5393 posts
Marxists more dangerous than Nazis, thats hilarious.
PP always brings on the lols.
03:01pm 22/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25901 posts
Lee Rhiannon - Marxist

Lee is a Senator for NSW, and has been a passionate activist for environment and social justice movements over five decades. Her portfolios include housing, democracy, industry, animal welfare and gun control.

Lee is an Australian Greens Senator for NSW. Prior to this, she was a Greens MP in NSW Parliament for over a decade. Lee spent this time pursuing reform in key areas like the environment, mining, public education, industrial relations and public transport. One of her most influential campaigns has been to stop the corrupting influence of political donations.

Lee is well-known for her energetic work in environment and social justice movements over five decades. She co-founded AID/WATCH and was its director for five years. Lee has been a long-time advocate for asylum seekers and refugees and regularly visits Villawood Detention Centre.

Lee was an organiser of the 1983 Women for Survival Pine Gap peace camp, Secretary of the Union of Australian Women (NSW Branch) and an organiser for Women Against Global Violence. In the early 1980s Lee was a member of the NSW Women’s Advisory Council that advised the NSW Premier.

In 2001 Lee initiated the annual Juanita Nielsen Memorial Lecture to honour the achievements of the community activist who was murdered in the 1970s for her stand against over-development in Kings Cross.

Lee has worked with the Rainforest Information Centre and for a number of trade unions. She trained as a zoologist and botanist.


Heinrich Himmler - Nazi

On Hitler's behalf, Himmler formed the Einsatzgruppen and built extermination camps. As facilitator and overseer of the concentration camps, Himmler directed the killing of some six million Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Romani people, and other victims; the total number of civilians killed by the regime is estimated at eleven to fourteen million people. Most of them were Polish and Soviet citizens.


Probably more dangerous than a nazi!!!!!
04:36pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39033 posts
Top billing on ABC News this morning. Above Origin, we have two articles on how nasty Hanson is.
to be fair anything is more interesting than Origin news

I had a quick look around at other sites to see what their top story was and the only one worse than the ABC was The Australian, which also had above fold story for Hanson but then it GOT WORSE:

https://trog.qgl.org/up/1706/australian-hanson-corby.jpg

augh the media
05:19pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5394 posts
05:22pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
805 posts
...what the f*** are you on about? Read the article. No evidence that shows removing retards from classrooms has any effect on other students learning capabilities. It disadvantages the disabled kids and does nothing else to benefit anyone. Also, if you think competition is grand, why segregate the kids, scared they're gonna whoop your kids ass because of their retard strength? P.S where do we segregate people on their educational abilities?


From Yrs 7-10 for me we had about 5 classes. From the A class to the 'vege' class. You could be in A for math, B for science, C for english, some classes were not scaled on performance.

In years 11 and 12 we chose which level of math we wanted to do. Physics, engineering science, home economics, or art. These were considerations towards further studies. You cannot just walk in and do 3 or 4 unit maths. Like many things in life there were prerequisites.

If keeping up with the syllabus is holding other kids back, because teacher can't afford to help little Johnny so much more, then yah, you have various classes, if little Johnny's mum can't organise tutoring etc. A "Class System". Class systems are fantastic.

From the age 14 in soccer it is no longer equal time on field, you can play the best team, and it gets competitive. Teams are graded.

When we grow up, our pay reviews are aligned with performance reviews and ability meet metrics. There have been 'cultures' such as public service where there was an expectation that people who are there longer get promoted. I can understand that this type of system may be more suitable for some, and that is why things have moved away from it.

You can represent zone in Athletics at like 6 years old or something.

WTF are you on about? The quoted guy is basically saying "i have not seen any evidence that this would be beneficial". He's trying to say "show me the evidence".

The mother (who may carry autistic genes) of an Autistic child says:

Autism Australia chief executive Nicole Rogerson, whose 21-year-old son Jack has autism. She said she felt sick when she heard Senator Hanson's "repulsive, bigoted and hurtful" comments and argued they took "the discussion about inclusive education back about 50 years".


Starting to sound like some feels going on with Nicole Rogerson.

and now your going to say "Show me the evidence". It's common sense. I know enough teachers to know there is a huge focus on identifying any kid with a learning issue, and if required, getting them assistance that does not require the teacher to chew up her hours on the slower learners.

Do you think dividing 100 kids up by the Surname and then each teacher having to spread across the range in capabilities is ideal?

Not efficient, and not environmentally friendly either.

Think of the environment. I'm thinking of the environment.

bigoted ˈbɪɡətɪd/Submit adjective obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.


Is "bigoted" basically, don't disagree with me on a sensitive subject, you might hurt my feelings?
05:51pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
152 posts
You do realise that kids with autism have the full spectrum of intelligence the rest of society has right?
06:40pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39035 posts
I f*****g love that you bolded the bit about class systems after we spent all that time talking about trying to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor
06:52pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
806 posts

It's not specifically about Autism, it's about children with special learning needs. There would be autistic kids that don't have special educational needs, and some that simply benefit from certain teaching techniques, like everyone does, and being considerate of their needs, There are children with learning disorders. ABC simply used her reference to autism as a trigger to engage rage against the right wing. Simple as that. Subject irrelevant. There is bigger news, but they pumped that one for all it's got.

Special Needs Teacher says:

Where I work, there have been students that clearly could not function in the mainstream sector. That is when support teachers have had to find an alternative setting, usually a school with more of a focus on pathways designed specifically for special needs children. This idea of "special classrooms" may seem like an easy fix to some, but it is just not a practical solution in all cases, given there are often up to five students with special needs in one mainstream classroom. For me, the most troubling part of Senator Hanson's comments was that she implied these special needs students were the biggest strain on teachers and schools. From my experience, the teacher and I spend just as much time dealing with students who have poor behaviour, attitude, and lack of interest in school work. They can be just as disruptive to a classroom as the extra five minutes a teacher may have to take to explain something to a child with special needs. Being a school officer can be taxing because of the amount of time you spend explaining and re-explaining things, constantly encouraging them to complete a task, helping to calm them down and to stay focused.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-22/pauline-hanson-autism-what-really-happens-in-the-classroom/8642848

Sounds like it already happens... and many kids without diagnosed disorders can be disruptive to the other students and they generally get a bit less 'inclusion' as well when sent to the principal, or suspended.

I f*****g love that you bolded the bit about class systems after we spent all that time talking about trying to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor


I know, I shouldn't do that. It's like flicking a lure out over a rippling stream going for trout, rather that sitting under a bridge. I'll try not to enrage, it doesn't help.

5 pm they bumped it on Facebook. They had it up near top on ABC news Front page.

Now article looks to be pulled and Hanson is saying (article 30 mins ago):

"For the Greens or anyone else to come out and say I do not believe they should be in our classrooms is a lie."


"It's your ABC"
07:08pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39036 posts
So presumably your approach is to tax us a little bit more so we can provide a more appropriate environment for every child based on their precise class? Or what, exactly
07:10pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
807 posts

For the last week I've been going on about the same things, but they are separate, but related in some ways I guess.

> That graph with "Welfare" in red across the top of the Tax Return page is surprising. Surprised me, may have surprised others. Lets be aware of it.
> Trump can act like a d******* and it might be entertaining, but so what, we have our own issues, and trump hate is almost fanatical in Australia considering he leads 4.4 % world population.
> Beware the commies. It's understated, the "soft push". Soft push is being used a great deal.
> Even ABC twists and manipulates news, and by something as simple as selecting what they put on their Facebook page, will alter "Most Popular" on their website. Even if it outranks arguably more relevant, and more neutral news.

Side note. Check out Sydney:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/map/where-australias-immigrants-were-born-sydney


07:39pm 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2591 posts
workers owning the means of production


Yes it is simply impossible to get from there to massively over employing a means of production.

I've read the communist manifesto actually. Why don't we swap favorite parts, mine are the communist articles of faith (fitting I think you'll agree if you think it has any intellectual value), and the notion that we should abolish prostitution by abolishing marriage. Marx was a f*****g clown and his principles on economics have caused more misery and suffering then virtually any other economic system you can name.

If you read those books and didn't pick up the labour theory of value, proletariat control of the means of production, and the abolition of private property you need to call your English teacher, because you got ripped off.

Probably more dangerous than a nazi!!!!!


Did you get to the end of Spot fpot. if we are talking about Himmler

These chaps killed more people each than Himmler fpot. Yeah marxism is way more dangerous than nazism. Ideologically my good chum, not an arbitrary Marxist is more dangerous than an Arbitrary Nazi. I note you didn't choose Richard Spencer. Please erect a more compelling strawman.

I can go on. Not members of a single government which reigned for under a decade. Multiple countries millions of people for more than half a century. If you can't unequivocally repudiate that you are as trog would say, a train wreck of humanity. Little lee can't.
07:43pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39037 posts
I know, I shouldn't do that. It's like flicking a lure out over a rippling stream going for trout, rather that sitting under a bridge. I'll try not to enrage, it doesn't help.
I'm not enraged, I'm pointing out that your views seem to be inconsistent depending on the particular narrative you're working with at the time. e.g., in this thread you are espousing two conflicting points of view - belief in class-based systems based on nothing but performance and concerns about the increasing wealth gap. Concerns with our schooling offerings for disabled people not being sufficient enough vs your desire to cut back on taxes and welfare.

If I'm enraged at anything it is you complaining that people keep talking about Trump, by continuing to bring up Trump
08:19pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5396 posts

Yes PP, because an ideology intentionally murdering people vs deaths caused by economic woes are the same thing.
Lee Rhiannon if put in a position of power to implement widespread Marxist policy would certainly lead to millions of deaths, right? Heh.

How about we count the immense amount of deaths at the hands of Capitalism to make it fair? I think you'd find it far more, and that's even without Nazism latched on.

edit:
here you go, for abit of an idea.
https://maoistrebelnews.com/2010/12/30/capitalism-known-true-evil/


10:17pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
808 posts
Yes, if we reduce the gap expanding that would be good. I'm very much into competition. The two don't have to necessarily conflict.

Reducing 'range' can be removing some of the uncharacteristic anomalies at either, or both ends.
11:21pm 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2592 posts
Yes PP, because an ideology intentionally murdering people vs deaths caused by economic woes are the same thing.


Yes the cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers of chavez were all accidents. Woops.

I've no intention of going another 10 rounds Vash.

Marxism is blight on humanity, and were Lee able to implement the policies she truly wants to its incredibly likely that millions would die.

Replacing private property with communal property is a demonstrated catastrophic failure. If you engage in it today, you are intentionally murdering people. its that simple. we know how it ends without exception.

You are an illiterate moron who continually whinges about the lack of education in the general electorate despite the fact you love marxism and think chomsky is someone worth listening to, by comparison the electorate has figured out they are both morons.
07:21am 23/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21286 posts
07:50am 23/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40638 posts
love that redhat battles super deep over politics being ever so clever, yet still cant work out why wearing a bike helmet is a good idea when riding a biek.

sigh.
07:59am 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5397 posts
Yes the cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers of chavez were all accidents. Woops.


Specific to Marxist leaders are they? Woops.

Nor are the economies of Africa or SE Asia the real versions of Capitalism i suppose?
No we blame Corruption or other things.

But when Venezuela is f***ed, its because of Socialism. Greece is a free market economy, oh it's still because of socialism, yet there isn't a hint of Socialism in that country.
08:03am 23/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9449 posts
yet still cant work out why wearing a bike helmet is a good idea when riding a biek.


I think it's best I leave this thread alone for a bit until I manage to forget this comment made an appearance. It's for the best.
09:25am 23/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40639 posts
As a procyclist ud be all for protecting your brain while riding, surely.
11:33am 23/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21287 posts
I think it's best I leave this thread alone for a bit until I manage to forget this comment made an appearance. It's for the best.


yeah before you say something stupid
12:36pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9450 posts
yeah before you say something stupid

I practice every day to find some clever lines to say to make the meaning come through!
01:24pm 23/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25902 posts
If you engage in it today, you are intentionally murdering people. its that simple. we know how it ends without exception.
Just like if we continue on the same path we are today without sweeping changes. And now that Trump is making things considerably worse you can probably add a few more million. Modern capitalism kills, it's just that it's tucked away in the third world so people don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.
02:27pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5398 posts
Good point fpot. Trump's policies could very well lead to the deaths of 100s of millions indirectly by not acting on climate change.
It's interesting how little Nmag or PP consider how serious it is. Even those evil Marxists want to tackle the problem.
02:34pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2593 posts
Even those evil Marxists want to tackle the problem.

Yeah by making living standards the same as they were in 1753. It'll solve the problem of too much in the atmosphere, might want to get your carrier pigeons ready though.


Specific to Marxist leaders are they? Woops.


Was Marxist leader Hugo Chavez's paramilitary specific to Marxist leader Hugo Chavez. There's a chance of it my little train wreck of humanity. Just a chance.

Just like if we continue on the same path we are today without sweeping changes. And now that Trump is making things considerably worse you can probably add a few more million. Modern capitalism kills, it's just that it's tucked away in the third world so people don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.


Well a red herring is not a straw man I'll give you that. Bonus points for a veiled accusation of racism to, you are a sensitive boy. The third world's miseries are almost exclusively tied to not being capitalist. And the more capitalist a country in the third world is, the higher the standard of living. Across the board. As a quick point of reference compare Libya and Zimbabwe to Kenya.

What sweeping changes do you propose, and in relation to which problems. If you are talking about climate change, the near universal consensus is allowing a market to form around greenhouse gases will be the most effective way to mitigate it. That isn't a blow to capitalism, its another feather in its cap.

Seeing as you don't want to talk about it anymore, do you concede Marxism is more dangerous than Nazism?
07:45pm 23/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25905 posts
It's kind of cute how you ask people questions under the guise of having a debate with them when you're nothing more than a vexatious little douche.

When focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible becomes a tenant of marxism I'll concede. Until then I'll think the person making the claim marxism is as dangerous as nazism is a little unbalanced in their thinking.
08:12pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5399 posts
By your logic, let's blame everything a leader does in a Capitalist economy on Capitalism, then PP.
If you're looking at the actions of people who identify as Marxist, then surely you must follow the same line of reasoning when looking at the actions of Capitalist leaders.

So in that case, WW1 & WW2, was caused by Capitalism. The massive amounts of poverty & starvation in the world are also caused by Capitalism.
09:09pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2594 posts
It's kind of cute how you ask people questions under the guise of having a debate with them when you're nothing more than a vexatious little douche.


I think you're misspelling "losing to me in a debate" fpot.

When focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible becomes a tenant of marxism I'll concede. Until then I'll think the person making the claim marxism is as dangerous as nazism is a little unbalanced in their thinking.


Strawman-redherring-strawman, it's like a fallacy street fighter combo. Nazism didn't do that. I take it then that the fact that marxism has produced more numerous, more lethal death camps and those that didn't die in death camps starved to death as a direct result of Marxist economic principles in orders of magnitude more than the nazis ever killed, is fine because they say they didn't mean it? Though obviously you can't "accidentally" run a political re-education death camp. Just 'soz guys, who knew taking everyone's property away would end in them all starving, my bad, oh and sorry for killing anyone who said taking everyone's property away will end in them starving" makes it ok.

cause that option is open to you. You just can't ever demand anyone provide evidence to you again, unhypocritically.

If you're looking at the actions of people who identify as Marxist, then surely you must follow the same line of reasoning when looking at the actions of Capitalist leaders.


No. I'm looking at people who apply an ordinary interpretation of the principles Marx espoused, and noting that it invariably ends in a repressive starvation economy.

WW1 & WW2, was caused by Capitalism.

No they weren't.

The massive amounts of poverty & starvation in the world are also caused by Capitalism.

No it isn't.
09:39pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5400 posts
Okay PP, in that case, then Marxism nor Socialism is the problem in Venezeula :)
Just applying your own limited logic there my lil fella.
10:08pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2595 posts
You're not applying my logic Vash. At all. But don't worry, one day you'll get there.
10:15pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5401 posts
No. I'm looking at people who apply an ordinary interpretation of the principles Marx espoused, and noting that it invariably ends in a repressive starvation economy.
cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers


I'd love to see where Marx espoused the above principles.
Perhaps the only part that rings true would be cultural revolution by ensuring people are more class aware and promoting them to take control of production.
10:41pm 23/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6490 posts
Dunno why you bother pp. Gettin dragged down to a level of dumb and beaten with experience.
10:07am 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2596 posts

Dunno why you bother pp. Gettin dragged down to a level of dumb and beaten with experience.


I know it looks like a mark twain situation, but I like to think of it more as an extended episode of kids say the darndest things but starring a nominally fully functional adult.

I mean look

cultural revolution by ensuring people are more class aware and promoting them to take control of production.


Comedy gold. The cultural revolution was just an awareness campaign. Was it really so different from the big freeze at the MCG? It's the gift that keeps on giving.


I'd love to see where Marx espoused the above principles.


You could try reading him. Just a thought.
10:56am 24/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12816 posts
FFS when is Vash actually going to read about Communism ?

Capitalism is elevating people in the 3rd world right now, i saw a bit recently on K-mart Island in Indonesia, theyve built a modern clothing manufacturing facility and even treat their water so they are environmentally friendly because thats what the customer wants.

Wages are low but thats what makes it worth developing, it possible because the cost of living there is also low. Chinas wages have lifted so Capital is looking for somewhere else to invest.

Capitalism has provided all the cushy things that Chardonnay Vash, the Peoples Poet, uses to romanticize his Struggle against Capitalism to bring about the Workers Paradise that has never worked in the past and never will work and usually ends in the thinning of the Herd.


11:58am 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5402 posts
Again, Marx never espoused gulags, government paramilitary enforcement, nor how the cultural revolution was carried out.

Show me a source, and saying 'just try reading him' isn't very convincing. But just keep on throwing them cute youtoob videos and calling people dumb instead of attacking the argument ole chap.
12:01pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2597 posts
Well here is the thing vash.

The self described adherents show a very consistent pattern of behavior and one that seems consistent with with his principles.

So if those people didn't get it right, it falls to you to say where they went wrong. Seems like if you haven't read the texts, you don't have a chance of doing that.

Whereas, I have read the communist manifesto (and as a side note, I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with such a poorly written spiteful document), it advocates revolution and the abolition of private property, which is so obviously bonkers I'm not going to read a 3000 page tome on why that isn't bonkers, when as a matter of incontestable historical fact it plainly was.

Marx advocates revolution and the abolition of private property. What did you think was going to happen when people *entirely reasonably and with in their rights* say no?

You kill them, and they did in the hundreds of millions.

But just keep on throwing them cute youtoob videos and calling people dumb instead of attacking the argument ole chap.

If you insist

12:11pm 24/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25906 posts
Mentioning the mass murder committed by the Nazis in a discussion about how dangerous Nazism is - truly the strawman of the century.

I wonder how that nazi death count would look if the bloodiest conflict of all time killing upwards of 70 million people didn't occur in an effort to put a stop to it. I wonder if that number wouldn't be significantly higher had the Germans won the war and Nazism be allowed to spread globally?

Trump and Nazi apologist. Some quite nice plumage in your fedora there friend.
12:19pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2598 posts
Don't support trump and not a nazi apologist.

You lose fpot.

Saying when you compare body counts marxism wins isn't apologia. And yes marxism still wins if you include the entire ww2 body count in the nazi column.

Mentioning the mass murder committed by the Nazis in a discussion about how dangerous Nazism is - truly the strawman of the century.


the Nazi's committed the holocaust but this:


focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible


Is a ridiculous strawman of their philosophy and you know it.

seeing as we want to play that game. Maybe its because most of Marxism's victims weren't white that you like it so much.
12:34pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5403 posts
Marxist ideology isn't a law to follow to the letter. Same as Capitalist ideology isn't. Each nation has its own set of laws, democratic & economic policies.
If Lee Rhiannon were PM, she is not going to put her political opponents into gulags, she's not going to create a special military force.

Chavez's actions weren't based on Marxism much either. His rampant corruption transferred much of the wealth to friends & family of Government. I wouldn't say there's much Socialism going on there based on that.

By the same token, Turkey has a conservative leader on a similar power grab. But thats because of Islam apparently? Heh.

For me personally, i'd like a flavor of Socialism & Capitalism, especially as technology is replacing Labor. Then eventually if post scarcity is achieved, full communism will be possible (Abolition of the state and money)
01:21pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2599 posts
You are bald faced ignorant of the things you're talking about Vash. Which is why it so enjoyable to watch you type without a hint of irony that the only reason people don't vote for the greens is they hate evidenced based policy.

Chavez was loud committed Marxist who behaved in ways absolutely consistent with revolution and the abolition of private property.

Here is a protip. "Abolition of the state and money" will never happen.
01:25pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5404 posts

https://maoistrebelnews.com/2010/12/30/capitalism-known-true-evil/

Here you go again PP.
Capitalism has killed far more than any flavor of Marxism.

Also, still waiting for that Trump criticism.
01:28pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2600 posts
Trump is a protectionist, and that is wrong, and the principle reason I wouldn't have voted for him.

Quick post to a maoist website on the evil capitalism. You're a retard.

Oh jesus didn't see this

By the same token, Turkey has a conservative leader on a similar power grab. But thats because of Islam apparently?


Yes the islamic conservative has nothing to do with islam. Just like marxists have nothing to do with marx.

That is some rhetorical technique you got goin on there.
01:31pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5405 posts
No, you misunderstood the point.
Erdogan being a Muslim is irrelevant, he's a Capitalist. He's on a power grab much like how people used Socialism or Communism to take control, to the people's demise.

Marxism is about giving power back to people, not to Government or friends of Government. That's why the end goal of Marxism is abolition of the state & money. Socialism is a means to get there.
It will be possible when we achieve unlimited energy and get better at converting energy into matter.
01:53pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2601 posts
No I think I get the point very very clearly.

Erdogan is an Islamist Vash. He is implementing exactly what you would expect an Islamist to. For example he has recently decreed evolution should not be taught in schools. I suppose the fact that is exactly consistent with the Quran is an astronomical coincidence is it?

The point with you is that actions obviously taken for ideological reasons must on no account be attributed to the ideology that is obviously driving them.
02:31pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
809 posts
Thought, I'd just pop in. I've currently got an article on a FB page that is trending and controversial. It's about sport, not really politics, but it is in a way.

3,961People Reached 80Reactions


A (NIMBY Greeny) opponent to what we are advocating for left a nice long message just now. I pm a scientific expert. A fellow advocate (who is a Doctor in the environmental and lead advocate) replied to the opponent with a good reply. I now put two politically correct comments in there to push the opponent down. Then add a fresh update follow-up post that pushes opponent into yesterdays news while providing backstory opinion article (by well known / respected athlete) to bring newer members up to date, and shame a council into reactive mode.

Ohh, all in a day's work... *yawn*

This is a common strategy. Poor old Agnas, or whatever is her name is wrote a wall of text, that's now in the ground. Thanks for dropping by. We are currently arming the big stuff, and rallying the troops.
02:41pm 24/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25907 posts
Saying when you compare body counts marxism wins isn't apologia.
Completely ignoring the fact that nazism was stopped in its tracks by the bloodiest conflict of all time and ignoring what the consequences would have been had that not happened, is. If the nazis had their way everyone who wasn't them would either have been murdered or enslaved.

I am not sure what history books you've been reading but the ones I read mention this thing called the final solution. That was the bit where the nazis used everything at their disposal to set up the industrialised killing of anyone they considered persona non grata. It's not a strawman of their philosophy, it's what defined it.

edit: NMag: don't link to it or anything
04:05pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2602 posts
Completely ignoring the fact that nazism was stopped in its tracks by the bloodiest conflict of all time


sigh. and the award for laziest quote mine goes too. Literally the next sentence was me accounting for it dude.

And yes marxism still wins if you include the entire ww2 body count in the nazi column


I'll bolster that and say it still wins if you include all the deaths from the pacific theater (which cannot be reasonably attributed to nazism).

this thing called the final solution


Oh yes fpot and did the final solution thingy apply to humanity at large or was it targeted in some way. I seem to recall the children of David being caught up in it. Maybe incidentally, its a grey area.

It's not a strawman of their philosophy.
suggesting they wanted to exterminate humanity at large is a straw man of it fpot. Hitler was quite clear about Europe for Europeans and Asia for Asians, hence the alliance with the Japanese Empire. Its racist and its evil, but he didn't want to exterminate just anyone.
04:46pm 24/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39038 posts
Ohh, all in a day's work... *yawn*
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. That it's possible for a moderator or editor to funnel the conversation in particular directions? That you can and do abuse your position of authority to silences voices that disagree with you?
07:03pm 24/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39039 posts
For me personally, i'd like a flavor of Socialism & Capitalism
yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now
07:05pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3287 posts
Ahh... we seem to be massively downplaying the sheer scale of death directly attributable to communism. Also that WW2 era Soviet Russia was a truly horrific regime on par with the Nazis or perhaps even worse in some respects. I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting, but it is rather indirect in comparison.

According to a disturbingly pleasant graphic from Information is Beautiful entitled simply 20th Century Death, communism was the leading ideological cause of death between 1900 and 2000. The 94 million that perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe easily (and tragically) trump the 28 million that died under fascist regimes during the same period. During the century measured, more people died as a result of communism than from homicide (58 million) and genocide (30 million) put together. The combined death tolls of WWI (37 million) and WWII (66 million) exceed communism’s total by only 9 million.
Communism Killed 94M in 20th Century, Feels Need to Kill Again

According to Stéphane Courtois’s The Black Book of Communism, Communism is responsible for 100 million deaths, a number total that far exceeds Nazism, which left 16 million dead—and it eclipses the 20th century death tolls of lung cancer, diabetes, and homicides.

Mao’s estimated death toll ranges from 60 million to 80 million, which surpasses the lives claimed by World War I (37 million) and possibly World War II (66 million).

Courtois tabs Russian dictator Joseph Stalin’s death total at 20 million, though this number fluctuates from 10 to 60 million depending on the source.

In Ukraine, collectivization and soviet industrialization brought about the Holomodor, a famine that caused between 2.5 to 7.5 million deaths.

In Cambodia, Pol Pot—who was previously a member of the French Communist Party... During his reign from 1975-1979, about 1.5-2 million of a total population of 7 million Cambodians were killed

Another two million were murdered by communists in North Korea and Ethiopia.
Communism: The Leading Ideological Cause of Death in the 20th Century

Daniel Goldhagen argues that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type." Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions. Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total.
Mass killings under Communist regimes

Rather subjectively, I've been to a bunch of Eastern Europe and have a fair few friends from there. The lingering effects of communism I saw there were terrible, and none of my friends from there are pro-communist, they're all keen to progress to Western style social democratic capitalism as quickly as possible.

Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.
07:27pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2603 posts
I'll answer more fully later viper.

But my experience is the same. I have a bunch of polish friends and the less said about their opinion of communism the better.

I was actually softer on communism before I lived in Europe. People who actually lived under it left no room for error. It's f***ed. and people who think otherwise are dumb or evil.

*edit* please make a fool of yourself fpot by calling me racist again. Just be aware the principle mode of antisemitism in the world to day is to redirect the holocaust against non-jews. I'm being nice. I won't call you antisemitic. But know you are flirting with it when you say the Nazi's wanted to kill just anyone, */edit*
11:14pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18395 posts
What is the point of comparing various political systems to a death toll? Pretty much every government system ever created has at some point been involved with significant deaths, and probably will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe it's not a problem of government, maybe it's just because humans can be vicious little bastards when they feel scared. Every government, at least in modern history, has dabbled in fear-based campaigns. Unfortunately, it works well.
09:07am 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5406 posts
yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now


Not even close. We're still firmly in the right of center camp, and drifting further that way.
Here's hoping a new power is rising after the French & UK election results.
09:19am 25/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2604 posts
I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting


I don't. I think it will be rather difficult to plausibly attribute too many deaths to the idea trade and industry should be privately owned and run for profit. But even if you want to start attributing deaths to it, I think it becomes incumbent to offer a superior alternative. Because the hard facts are that capitalism easily provides the highest living standard for the most amount of people of any system we've ever tried. So what ever deaths are occurring under modern capitalism its a good bet they wouldn't have been saved by adopting a different system. And its a better bet the situation would have been much much worse under Marxism.

It doesn't save everyone, but that's not a claim it makes for itself. Unlike some other systems.


Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations
and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.


Well it all depends what you mean by neoliberal really. The free movement of labour and capital is pretty central to neoliberalism. So I don't really think you can have something like the EU without being neoliberal in some sense.

But more over my understanding of neoliberalism is not that reducing govt regulation etc is an end in itself. the idea is that a higher standard of living will be achieved to the extent the state does not get involved. And to be honest, I think that idea generally has legs. People operating in their own self interest will tend to do a better job of something then a bureaucracy.

It doesn't hold true for everything, but it does for a lot of things, and probably more things than not.

Medicine would be an example where self interested parties don't seem to do a great job. But it is true to say also that there is no lack of government intervention (even in the US), and I know doctors that do complain about how government health is run. My dad is a pharmacist and he complains all the time that the Australian PBS is incredibly wasteful, while acknowledging that something like it is necessary.

I also think it is important to say that while it is *clearly* an outrage someone should be excluded from adequate medical care for lack of money in a 1st world country, it is also true that there is a lot about health care that is not strictly speaking necessary in order for it to be delivered but that people would not generally be willing to do with out.

For example the personal relationship with your doctor is not medically necessary, but if you were forced to leave a GP you liked for no good reason you'd probably be pretty pissed off. And rightly so.

and it is areas of health care delivery like this, that centrally government run health care has a well earned reputation for stinking out loud.
04:15pm 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5407 posts
Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is abit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.
10:09am 26/06/17 Permalink
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