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Out of Orbit - Our Full and Complete Destiny 2 Review
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Fraggin' Good Times - Hands-On with Quake Champions
Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2075 posts

Centrist was the neoliberal experiment that has now come to an end.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/paul-keating-says-neoliberalism-is-at-a-dead-end-after-sally-mcmanus-speech-20170329-gv9cto.html

It has failed the working class and now action is required. Not more radical centrist bulls***.


10:06pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3275 posts
Corbyn is, above all else, authentic. I think that really resonates.

I'd agree neoliberalism has failed in many areas and caused a lot of our woes, however it also did a bunch of great things, you can't argue against the benefits of liberal markets and globalism, despite the solvable negatives we've since discovered.

Neoliberalism is not equal to centralism. When I say centralism I mean the middle ground, a reasonable, rational mix of centre-left and centre-right policies that appeal to, and can work for, the majority of people. That's in respect to the right v left political spectrum. It certainly doesn't have to contain overtly neoliberal policies, the policy can be anything per say. Democracy requires consensus and consensus requires compromise. You won't get that with an ever increasing ideological divide, ergo, we need more centralism.

If you fancy a good read of neoliberalim's death knell, I liked this article: Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
10:32pm 10/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7653 posts
Not more radical centrist bulls***.


oxymoron ++
10:12am 11/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3276 posts
This is what I'm talking about, France leading the way!

Emmanuel Macron’s party looks set to sweep into power

A second revolution is underway in France. On the back of the remarkable election in May of Mr Macron, who had never before run for election to any office, La République en Marche! (LRM), a movement he founded just 14 months ago, looks set to secure a parliamentary majority at the two-round legislative election, on June 11th and 18th (see chart).
The Macron parliamentary revolution is not only about upsetting the old party balance, which has dominated France for 60 years, in favour of a new radical centre. It is also changing the face of French politics. Fully 251 of the 525 candidates LRM is fielding, which it selected from among 19,000 online applicants, have never run for elected office before, according to Le Monde, a newspaper. Half are women; the average age is 47. Like Mr Bonnell, some are entrepreneurs. There are also many teachers, civil servants and doctors, 11 farmers, two firemen, a hairdresser, an ex-professional golfer, a theologian, a mathematician and a female fighter pilot. This astonishing democratic experiment is both refreshing, and a gamble.
12:46am 12/06/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4606 posts
there's going to be no far-centre movement taking Australian poltics by storm, even if there's some rich d******* like Clive Palmer to pay the significant cost of setting a new national party up
02:40am 12/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21274 posts
Heh, Trump's actually going to be stupid enough to lie under oath isn't he?


if it is just his word against the other guys, which is what it sounds like - then of course he will lie

the things Comey is claiming that Trump said sound EXACTLY like something an egotist like Trump would say
07:57am 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12799 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
Cant wait for the next one.

America is becoming Great Again.

Meanwhile Conservatism in Australia takes a step backwards with The Labor-Lite Liberal Party re-introducing Labors Great Big New Tax on Electricity.

http://wp.failure.at/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/facepalm_triple.jpg
12:11pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2577 posts
Corbyn is hardly a commie, although he's certainly hard left.


His director of strategy, seamus milne, is a stalinist and Thomas Piketty resigned as an economic advisor to him.

He has probably learned, as all communists have, to tart his language up. I wouldn't be surprise behind closed doors if he is an outright commie.

if sanders and corbyn represent the new left, the left is in serious trouble.

He made up some ground against a terrible campaign in an election that was called pretty cynically. But lets keep in mind that while the conservatives lost seats, they picked up 4% or so in national vote. Corbyn came no where near forming government.

And if you are looking for Corbyn to bail you out of brexit you don't know Corbyn. The dude is a life long brexiteer. Keep this list of feckless cowardice and incompetence in mind when ever you discuss him.
03:56pm 12/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38999 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
What story exactly? the one made of straw that you just erected in that sentence or another one

aside from your paid Russian troll-esque propaganda, what signs are there that America is becoming great again? (genuine question because there is a lot of "Trump is the badz" noise in the worldwide news so it's easily possible I have missed some positive economic wins that are the direct result of his policies and I would be genuinely interested to see how he's going)

(edited to fix broken quote tags, what a noob)
05:44pm 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12800 posts
All the Liberals were tuning in to hear Comey sink Trump
and it didnt happen.
Comey delivered a great big Nothing Burger.
I have to say Comey appears to be incompetent, possibly a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

on to the Winning !
$ 100 billion a year not going to The UN Climate slush fund
The end of the War on Coal
The end of the ludicrous Clean Energy regulations
Billions of infrastructure funding from Saudis
Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis
Approving the Keystone pipeline

The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
Manufacturing Index at highest in 30 years
NATO welfare countries contributions to increase by 10 billion a year
Trump added 300 000 jobs in his first month.

He is the most Winning President ever just as he predicted.
The Media campaign against him is hilarious.
If he gets those Tax Cuts through America will move beyond Great.
a New World Order is forming and Australia is out chasing the Climate Unicorn.

The President also pointed out numerous times that the MSM (Main Stream Media) reports only on a made up Russia conspiracy story and ignores these accomplishments. These actions are making the majority of Americans aware of the tremendous bias in the media in the US and abroad. This too is another major Trump accomplishment. Winning, Winning, Winning!

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/04/draft-complete-list-of-president-trumps-accomplishments-in-his-first-100-days/

06:31pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18393 posts

Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis


I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.
08:37pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2578 posts
I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.


+1
08:41pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3278 posts
Yeah I agree with you re: Corbyn Pete.

None of those things really sound like wins to me.
09:55pm 12/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25880 posts
Anyone see the video of the cabinet meeting where Trump spoke a bit about how great he was and then kept the camera in there as they went around the table recording 'praise' from the people sitting there? Truly bizarre stuff. Not really sure whether he's surrounded by mindless sycophants or whether they were under orders.

07:06pm 13/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39006 posts
do people not remember where the phrase "winning" came from? why would people use it in a non-ironic sense?

also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance about arming countries in the Middle East they are massively ideologically opposed to and constantly one bad intel report away from invading. Last I checked that group was still mad at the thought of having to go up against their own planes from Top Gun when they invaded Iran!
The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
you picked the wrong weekend to brag about how great the US markets are going, but yeh the stock market is indeed going up! like it has been since 2008.
07:15pm 13/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12801 posts
Bolt claims there is an emergency meeting of the Liberal Party on right now.
has been going for 3 hours.
I think the Finkle Report could be the end of Trunbull.

that video lol I was gonna post it.
Trump trolls the Media Part 23
What a genius.



07:41pm 13/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7655 posts
This country is stuffed!

Boony for PM



10:25pm 13/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13702 posts
It's a pretty sad indictment of the poverty of your own intellect when you think buffoonery that is truly akin to behaviour you'd expect from a reality TV show, is excused as 'trolling' - and in the next breath, even praised as 'genius'. I wonder if the bar for alleging genius has ever been lower
02:21am 14/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12802 posts
Well, it was above Hillary Clinton.
02:32am 14/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13703 posts
Hillary Clinton wasn't a great candidate, but still... no

Hillary Clinton would at least have not debased the office beyond the usual realm of political perfidy. Donald Trump's redeeming qualities are appreciable or even perceivable largely only by people who tend to hold positions not grounded in reason. See most of the list you posted earlier for a resounding example.
02:50am 14/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40621 posts
05:25am 14/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3279 posts
Relax guys, Rodman's got this.
06:56am 14/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25882 posts
also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance
The same way it is always resolved - selective ignorance.
05:34pm 14/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7656 posts
I'm really getting sick of all the extremism on both sides
08:01pm 14/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2367 posts
US President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post has reported.
Aww poor Faceman his god is heading for impeachment
10:21am 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12803 posts
can i get a side order of Freedom Fries with that new Nothing Burger HJ ?

Crazy Lefty Socialist Sanders Supporter tries to murder Republicans.
What do you expect with Celebrities doing decapitations, knifings of Trump in plays, the frenzy in the Media ?

Trump is the President.
Make America Great Again or get outta the way.
12:33pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25883 posts
The day Trump is impeached and removed from office will almost be as sweet as when the Blues win the Origin 3-0 this year.
04:53pm 15/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2579 posts
The odds of trump being impeached by a republican house are almost nothing.
07:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25884 posts
Luckily the odds of the Blues winning 3-0 are much higher.
07:55pm 15/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
778 posts
I don't personally like that we are heading further socialist like some of northern Europe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCT5JZpW0AApFa3.jpg

The Greens and other Communists are Trump Triggered, and can't get past what a person says and how his hair looks. The disgruntled millennials who can't find a house to buy because we live in an expensive country lapping up the Greens and other Communists propaganda is folly. Joining the Trump Hate ban wagon... it has hardly anything to do with us. They should support the person they voted in. They all cheat. Did people really want Hillary? Wake up. Bernie was never going to make it, just like the leader of the Greens, and Pauline will never be PM. That's it millennials, keep encouraging people to flood in for the welfare. We/you need more welfare... and at the same time blame government for low low-end wages, and lack of housing. Do you really think Obama is any more genuine than Trump because Obama comes across so calm and PC? He's a politician, they are all full of s***.

The prices on housing going through the roof is a good thing. It's when the houses are worth hardly anything... like the economic failure that is USA... that we are in trouble.

If this place is so crap, catch a plane and move to another country. I like it here, and I like seeing some 'right' representation to combat policy based on 'feels'.
09:23pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25885 posts
Cool parody post bro but do you mind linking to where you got it from?

edit: I found this funny

https://image.ibb.co/hBbFA5/DCW2_Epy_Uw_AEl5di.jpg
free image hosting websites
09:29pm 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12804 posts
11:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2368 posts
I'm looking forward to the "Communications Over Various Feeds Electronically For Engagement" Act
06:34pm 16/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39010 posts
If you are interested in more detail about the ongoing legal s****how in the US at the moment I found this 100-post Twitter thing really interesting. There was a followup today about some of the predictions in it coming true.
08:50pm 16/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2580 posts
got to 18 and stopped reading. Could use some accurate detail.

He claims the Steele dossier has been "partly confirmed" and it alleges trump committed treason. Well f*** that is damning, just for context It also alleges trump hired prostitutes to piss on a bed Michelle Obama slept on.

About the only confirmed in that document is some jackass private eye called steele wrote it.
09:44pm 16/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
779 posts
http://www.haanhealth.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/psychologist1.jpg

"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.
01:32am 17/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5378 posts
"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.


Cute. Could be accurate if you thought Trump was a disaster just based on his personality, but all you need to do is look at policy, and his policies affect all of us. Climate change isn't this little issue that will go away.
Unless you're the kind of person that loves shifting your problems under a rug.

As usual Chomsky is right, the conversation has been very well magnified to the us vs them mentality. Policy is just not important enough to discuss, and if you do dare, it ends up being, what about Obama or Hilary, or how precious liberals are. How boring.
01:46am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
780 posts
I'm very familiar with his policies:

https://www.politiplatform.com/trump

his policies affect all of us


Go on enlighten me. There are numbers, so it's really easy to list the ones that
affect all of us


I can see 146. Tell me about
all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

Do not despair. Even if you identify symptoms of having Trumphobia, it's not all that bad. It could be worse, you could be one of the many who vote for the Australian Greens without reading their policies from the source, but because they seem so much more honest and'nice'.

https://greens.org.au/policies/social-justice

A more equitable distribution of resources should eliminate poverty.


Currently 30% of our income tax goes to Welfare. Clearly that is not enough for the Greens.

Immigration must be non-discriminatory on the grounds of nationality, ethnicity, religion, language, gender, disability, sexuality, age or socioeconomic background.


Insanity, right there.

The development of networks, materials and programs that increase community understanding of the causes and benefits of migration.


There are benefits of migration, however these are diluted when including socioeconomic background in Policy. Tell me the economic benefit. It's pure 'feels' with additional cost.
10:38am 17/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12806 posts
Nmag first of all he doesnt believe in God, oops I mean Climate Change.
and then he doesnt believe in Russians Change
and he doesnt believe in Transgender Sex Change (reversed bathroom law)
and he supports Israels security concerns
and hes Rich, very Rich.

and worst of all... he doesnt listen to The UN

Trump refuses to believe in Left Wing sacred cows
Its almost like hes a Conservative.

and Hillary got more votes.

and hes Hitler.

10:52am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
781 posts
Nah we have moved past 'perception' and are basing comments on his policies. Go ahead, list some of the 146 that drive your Trumphobia.
10:58am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25886 posts
Just out of curiosity, why do you think it isn't worth commenting about something if it doesn't affect you?

The USA is without a doubt the most powerful and influential nation in the world. Trump's behaviour at the very best is highly questionable and the whole Russia thing could turn out to be one of the biggest and most damaging political scandals of all time. Only a fool or a hardcore apologist would say that his actions won't have global effects. You say go read a map, I'd suggest you go read a history book.

But one has already been mentioned in any case. It's a thing that doesn't just affect everybody but will affect everybody body till the end of time.
11:04am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
782 posts

I think it's great to comment on it, however we are saturated in news about his hair and tweets and how he shakes hands etc. It enrages people who really have little idea about his Policies or read transcripts of speeches, but instead read a clickbait hate heading and continue to spiral into this Trumphobia, while there are things much closer to home to deal with. Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.

His hair is no more than left wing circle jerking content. It cements the left, and further conditions people to ignore policy, or what actually happens, and increase the feel factor. No room for feels in business, unless you work in marketing or HR.

We need to be objective about where our news comes from and how it is manipulated. Here is and example, ABC News website has being showing snippets of this on going saga: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-11/china-communist-party-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754 When you read ABC news, look where they place articles. ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident. The push by communist China in this country is a concern, however ABC is a government institution housing employees, and loved by people who are voting for communism with their Green votes.

When you read ABC News, or TheGuardian, have a good look at the articles they are promoting with top billing, and where they place the articles that demonstrate clear evidence that not discriminating on socioeconomic grounds comes with consequences. Have a good look at the other "Opinion" articles some of the witter produce. Look for facts in these articles. Many of the writters, and the promoters of these articles are far more "divisive" than trump and his antics, or his actual policies.


11:20am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25887 posts
Well I agree about the hair and handshakes. They're of little importance but they're fun to laugh about. Kind of funny that an apparent master of the deal can't even execute a proper handshake don't you agree? I reckon his tweets are important for reasons I've already mentioned. Not so much amusing mistakes like covfefe, more the way he is trying to neutralise the media by claiming it's all fake news and conditioning his followers to consider himself the only reliable source of information, using it to intimidate witnesses and so forth.
11:35am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
783 posts
There's that word again. "All".

We can't have intelligent conversations when we include absolutes, that are exaggerations. They might feel good when writing them, but they are generally false. In a proper competitive debate, teams lose points after getting teared apart for throwing around "all" incorrectly.

A great deal of news is 'fake'. I've written media releases for things before, and it can be the most simple subject without any controversy. You give it to a journalist, they will twist the article to introduce controversy, to engage with people's 'feels", it sells advertising space and drives the 'discussion', but it's often rubbish. It's very common, and it's lame. Once you see the article in the paper, you wonder about the integrity of many Journalists. After doing this many times you start to realise there is a strong pattern.

We have a great deal of stupid people in our world, many of them don't read details or consider where the source of the news is coming from. They read click bait headings and throw a comment down. You see it often on FB. Then replies under the comment (which has 100 likes) pointing factually, that the article content is contrary to what the 100 like comment states. The 100 like comment reflects the clickbait heading. This is very common. It's easy to underestimate how many stupid people there are. If you want more stupid people, support the Greens policy regarding "or socioeconomic background" on migration.

Remember all the hype about FPS driving people to be violent. Who believes that playing FPS is a major multiple contributing factor. Lets not even get into chicken and the egg type cause/symptom topic.

In the 1970's and early 1980's we had news articles about how playing Dungeons and Dragons can kill you.
11:59am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25888 posts
Well I guess Trump is the one losing points in this case because he's the one claiming anything negative printed about him is fake news.
12:10pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5379 posts
socioeconomic background.


That's what is called insane policy to you? Heh.
And none of Trump's policies ring that bell in your mind?
12:18pm 17/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2581 posts
Another gem from Seth Abramson.

Apparently this

I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt,


is obstruction of justice. There is nothing untrue in that sentence. Rosenstein did write a memo that was none too complimentary about comey to the white house. Rosenstein is investigating the firing (well overseeing it) through the special investigator.

Mr Abramson, appears to think this is a clear threat that trump will fire him, or something.
02:59pm 17/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7657 posts
His hair is no more than left wing circle jerking content. It cements the left, and further conditions people to ignore policy, or what actually happens, and increase the feel factor. No room for feels in business, unless you work in marketing or HR.


Spot on Nmag - classic bait and switch. Although to be fair to the lefties, the right-wingers get all stirred up on certain topics as well that "cements" their base.

Meanwhile China goes about its business buying up Australia and bribing pollies from both sides of politics.

"Nothing to see hear round-eye, you go about fighting amongst yourselves."

04:17pm 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25889 posts
How is that a bait and switch?
04:27pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39011 posts
I think it's great to comment on it, however we are saturated in news about his hair and tweets and how he shakes hands etc. It enrages people who really have little idea about his Policies or read transcripts of speeches, but instead read a clickbait hate heading and continue to spiral into this Trumphobia, while there are things much closer to home to deal with. Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.
This is indeed a problem and has been for years, but has NOTHING to do with Trump and everything to do with the way a) people use the Internet and b) people make money off the Internet.

There is a reason I've spent like 10 years s***ting on news.com.au. The simple fact is clicks == money and until people stop clicking things won't change. I find myself in the awkward position of now almost wanting everyone to use adblockers because "ads keep websites free" is outweighed by the dangers click-funded journalism

i.e.: If you're reading articles about Trump's hair in 2017, you're part of the problem!
ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident.
The ABC is still my go to news source but you are 100% right; they suffer from the same problem as above: they are stupidly driven by the same metrics as commercial news stations (clicks/hits/impressions), despite it having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their "business model".

I have been an angry old man yelling at them on Twitter about this several times.
Many of the writters, and the promoters of these articles are far more "divisive" than trump and his antics, or his actual policies.
I disagree with this in general; this is a common perception of bias in media and there have been academic studies to show that many of the majors are typically surprisingly unbiased and fact-based. When I read most articles on those sites (outside of opinion section) they are basically a dry list of facts which is what I want my journalism to be.
Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.
It sounds to me like you are making the classic Internet mistake of being really sick of hearing about something so you keep talking about how you're sick of hearing about it :) It's a vicious circle dude! (I blocked the phrase "Trump" on Twitter for exactly this reason and holy s*** it's so much nicer, although some still sneak through like the thing I posted above.)
06:16pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39012 posts
Meanwhile China goes about its business buying up Australia and bribing pollies from both sides of politics.
And those left wing hippies over at the ABC continue to do nothing about it!
06:22pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3281 posts
I think this media bit is a interesting and important topic. But who's to blame? The media? Or is it us the audience? After all it's our clicks they're chasing. It's a feedback loop, so they're giving us what we click on the most, and it seems to be mostly s***.

Although I will say, I don't think we need 24x7 rolling news coverage and should perhaps do away with it. It just creates a never ending demand for anything remotely 'newsworthy'.
06:52pm 17/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2582 posts
Although I will say, I don't think we need 24x7 rolling news coverage and should perhaps do away with it. It just creates a never ending demand for anything remotely 'newsworthy'.


Amen to that.
07:35pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
784 posts

When these articles were appearing on ABC news many of them had an unusually high number of bits of junk stories scattered above to push them down, even though the show is done by Four Corners.

They are good articles.

"How the Chinese Communist Party exerts its influence in Australia: detained professor"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-06/how-china-uses-its-soft-power-strategy-in-australia/8590610


08:14pm 17/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39014 posts

When these articles were appearing on ABC news many of them had an unusually high number of bits of junk stories scattered above to push them down, even though the show is done by Four Corners.

They are good articles.

"How the Chinese Communist Party exerts its influence in Australia: detained professor"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-06/how-china-uses-its-soft-power-strategy-in-australia/8590610


so when I saw them on ABC they had pole position (otherwise I would not have seen them because I rarely scan below the fold). But they can only keep it as big news for so long. People are just apathetic as f*** about it I reckon
08:37pm 17/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7659 posts
London Terror Attack Scoreboard:

ISIS 30 kills

Financial Parasites 150 kills



tru dat
09:43pm 17/06/17 Permalink
Chancre
Brisbane, Queensland
43 posts

Here is and example, ABC News website has being showing snippets of this on going saga: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-11/china-communist-party-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754 When you read ABC news, look where they place articles. ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident. The push by communist China in this country is a concern


Um, the ABC were posting stories all the previous week before that event about China's influence on Australia. In fact it was getting kind of tedious how much they were doing this. All through their radio broadcasts, always on their website and all through their television broadcasts. I was thinking to myself, "s***, they're going pretty f*****g hard on China this week. They'll want some serious legal backup." As I recall they even stated that there were focussing on the issue for the week and would be posting more stories. It would seem like of strange for them not to bump a bit of the China spam when other news came up after they'd already been at it for a while.
09:08pm 18/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3282 posts
Holy macaroni batman, that's how you change the system!

Mr Macron’s political movement, created just 14 months ago, took 32% of the vote, ten points ahead of the Republicans. This puts it on course to win a crushing majority at the run-off with more than 400 of the 577 National Assembly seats (see chart)—one of the biggest under the Fifth Republic—that would squeeze the Republicans, sideline the far right and far left, and all but wipe out the Socialist Party, which could lose 90% of its seats.
https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20170617_FBC042.png
.

Emmanuel Macron’s democratic revolution
12:45am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
785 posts
I scan over ABC each morning and afternoon. I saw the Communist articles get coverage on ABC NEWS TV, and saw little special link up top right on http://www.abc.net.au/news/

Each time I saw them on http://www.abc.net.au/news/, they were pushed down below the fold on the front page. Some people saw opposite. I din't.

The overall result of exposure of the articles via ABC, didn't get into top for past week, or past month. Like I said, on one day they had broken London fires into about 5 stories (which was unusual for ABC) and the commy articles were down, down down, well below. It was the article about the University students pressured to dob in a non-commy, and to keep eye on their peers to ensure they pushed the commy agenda.

http://i.imgur.com/cSyZdpZ.jpg

Screen capped this morning.

Scrolling down the ABC News Facebook page I think we can see why those commy articles did not get the exposure they deserve. ABC News Facebook page appears selective in which articles get the exposure. The promoted a couple which aim to shame our government, rather than the more holistic issue of China pushing it's agenda through, university campuses, controlling Chinese news in Australia, etc etc.
07:42am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5380 posts
Oh you're one of those people who think the ABC is pro communist. Heh.

Meanwhile we have privately owned companies spreading this kind of propaganda.

http://i.imgur.com/9sdgGxJ.jpg
09:07am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
786 posts
Where is your list of the 146 https://www.politiplatform.com/trump that applies to us Vash?

I'll help. Lets pick 10 random ones:

What we get:

117 no
97 maybe, saying China is a currency manipulator
91 no
9 no
37 maybe, not really sure what it is
49 no
134 no
105 no
11 no
8 no

So, I have checked under your bed, and in the wardrobe. There are no Mr Trumps in there. It's all safe to go back to sleep.

I think we need to increase population in AU. Immigration is generally good. Scrutiny is warranted. We could be encouraging people who already live here, who are successful, educated, and intelligent to double or triple their current birth rates. Our human breeding funding programs seem to support the opposite.
09:20am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5381 posts
That 'Environment' section is rather brief. How surprising.
You know we live on the same planet right? I suppose you also put climate change in the spaghetti monster category. Another anti science nugget.
10:47am 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
787 posts
We are burning a great deal of coal, to power the machine that hands 30% of income tax to welfare recipients.
11:24am 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5382 posts
Oh so it's the sick & disadvantaged that are the problem. Gotcha.
Certainly not the vested interests that keeps energy production from moving to renewables.
11:54am 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12807 posts
Who is funding the sick and disadvantaged and why should they continue to do it here rather than pack up and move to a lower Taxing Economy ?
12:54pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5383 posts
Who is funding the sick and disadvantaged and why should they continue to do it here rather than pack up and move to a lower Taxing Economy ?


Taxpayers, the community. We're a social species aren't we? We're not in the ring of every man or woman for themselves, as your 'ideology' puts it. When every person chips in abit to ensure someone (maybe one of your family members?) is unable to work due to a medical condition or whatnot, we can get them on their feet again.
What would you prefer in your libertarian paradise?
01:32pm 19/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21278 posts
Taxpayers, the community. We're a social species aren't we? We're not in the ring of every man or woman for themselves, as your 'ideology' puts it. When every person chips in abit to ensure someone (maybe one of your family members?) is unable to work due to a medical condition or whatnot, we can get them on their feet again.
What would you prefer in your libertarian paradise?


very interested to see facey's reply to this one.
02:27pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25890 posts
something something bootstraps
02:46pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2077 posts
03:07pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25892 posts
I quite liked this one myself -

https://image.ibb.co/ikLxa5/daily_mail_fail.png
03:13pm 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12808 posts
A growing Economy funds the well being and care of a Society ]
Capitalism provides for the Welfare

Capitalism grows the pie to feed more
Socialism divides the pie to feed more

Socialism doesnt make the poor stronger, it makes the Government stronger and Capitalism weaker. Thats a bigger Car carrying more people with a smaller engine.





03:14pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
788 posts
Stolen watermelons :: 13/09/2004 Announcer: Mr Anderson told a party function, the Greens weren't a viable alternative to the major parties. John Anderson: ...actually they are a home for the people who in the 1950s would have joined the communist party. They are watermelons, many of them green on the outside and very, very, very red on the inside. -ABC Radio News, 6 September 2004.
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1198314.htm
03:15pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25893 posts
Care to post the context for your 13 year old transcript?
03:37pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5384 posts
A growing Economy funds the well being and care of a Society ]



I'll take that as you agree that welfare is essential in Capitalism, otherwise you end up with slums & huge amounts of crime.
04:36pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
789 posts
The context remains unchanged. We still have watermelons.
06:11pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39016 posts
The context remains unchanged. We still have watermelons.
you are just playing into the same tired bulls*** message that libertarian free market capitalist extremists have been pushing for a zillion years - if you give a s*** about other people, you're a communist socialist nutbag

Not wanting a return of an oligarchic ruling elite with Aristocracy 2.0 does not mean everyone wants socialism. It is absolutely vital that conservatives and capitalists realises this before it deteriorates even further into an us-vs-them situation, but it's also vital that liberals and "the left" realise it as well because their rhetoric is just as divisive. Most free market/capitalist types that I know don't /actually/ want an unregulated free market, outside of a handful of extremists, just like most social-good liberal types I know don't want a communist state.

The difference between these two groups is, I reckon, much much much MUCH F*****G SMALLER than the Internet would have people believe. But with everyone running around name calling, like you and Faceman are doing, by trying to polarise people as belonging to "The Other" while pretending your side is free of all evil... how do you think that helps?

I would be interested to see what people think we can do to curtail that kind of discussion. It's boring, irritating, pointless, and divisive, but worst of all doesn't make for interesting or informed debate; short of actually having someone (not me) just sit around and start deleting s*** every time someone makes a broad useless generalisation about 50% of the population's political motivations I'm not sure how to improve things.
06:34pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25894 posts
Just so I'm clear on your position, you think the greens are a bona fide communist party masquerading as a garden variety left political party?
07:46pm 19/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12809 posts
If name calling offends you perhaps you should stay out of Politics/Ideology.
Those who want Free Speech with rules have already decided the outcome.

...which is pretty much the game plan of Political Correctness/Cultural Marxism.



09:04pm 19/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2583 posts
Holy macaroni batman, that's how you change the system!


It'll be interesting to see how a party that was formed 14 months ago plays out. I seem to recall he wants to reduce state welfare in France, so it'll be interesting to see if he is actually able to do anything.

Hollende's party would be to the left of the Australian Labor party and when he tried to implement economic liberalization (or at least a strong left wing version) the s*** hit the fan.

*edit* which is to say a 14 month old party is likely to be unstable, as a well developed platform is unlikely to have been made yet.

if you give a s*** about other people, you're a communist socialist nutbag


The Greens aren't a communist party perse but they have no shortage of outright Marxists Trog, I know I've met them.

But even almighty wiki agrees. Lee Rhiannon is a communist

It is not
the same tired bulls*** message that libertarian free market capitalist extremists have been pushing for a zillion years


To point out a self identifying marxist is a marxist.
09:43pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39017 posts
haha nice strawman. Let me know when you want to have a discussion that you haven't copied from some psyops field manual on how to sow dissent amongst the proletariat. It must really toast your bagel that you've had a nearly completely uninterrupted run of vastly unmoderated free speech on this forum since you joined spouting totally ridiculous conspiracy theories.

As has been true since the dawn of time you're welcome to go start your own discussions with true free speech. You can look up the history of sites that have done that, just follow the smoking ruins.

You might think it's OK to hide behind free speech (which, by the way, this forum has quite obviously never ever pretended to offer) so you can do absolutely nothing but run around screaming SOCIALISM at everything but for those of us that actually want some nuance in our conversations it is old and boring. I'm not actively moderating or working on AusGamers at the moment so as much as I'd like to simply write a new rule and enforce a change just so I can have adult conversations, it's not for me to do.

So I have to rely on my "free speech" to try to engage you like a grown up and say, how can we have a proper conversation about this stuff without it degenerating into you anonymously name calling everyone in the most trite manner possible? Do you even want to? Or are you just going to scream FREE SPEECH at a request for reasonable discourse?
09:54pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
790 posts
I think we are going too far with the welfare, and the PC have too much of a voice. I understand we need to give poor people lots of money as it's cheaper than dealing with the crime, but we hand out too much welfare. The Green's and their communistic alliances are annoying. It's already become us v's them. The economic gap is growing. Also, people are ditching Labor and Liberal to vote at further ends to combat each other's views. The gap is continuing to grow. Religion can be attributed to most of it.

Do we need to dig up the "How to vote cards" from the Greens?

I'm all for improved discussion, but left wing circle jerking about the hair and antics of the political leader of a country on the other side of the planet deserves some spam.

Vash has come up with "the environment" out of Trumps 146 policies.

Watermelons is the term John Laws use to use. It has a place. Many people who vote Greens don't realise they are supporting communistic and socialist agendas.

PS: Hanson is up from 9% to 11%.
09:55pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39018 posts
The economic gap is growing.
So you want to double down on free market capitalism?! Why do you think the economic gap is growing? Because we're giving too much money as welfare?
I understand we need to give poor people lots of money as it's cheaper than dealing with the crime, but we hand out too much welfare.
Two questions:
1) How much is "enough" welfare (or, what is the "right amount")?
2) What numbers, facts or other data are you basing your opinion on? Massive curiousity on this point.
I'm all for improved discussion, but left wing circle jerking about the hair and antics of the political leader of a country on the other side of the planet deserves some spam.
once again /you/ are the one bringing up the hair thing
Many people who vote Greens don't realise they are supporting communistic and socialist agendas.
I vote Green and am actively opposed to communism and socialism - what do you mean by "many" people? How many?
10:04pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
791 posts
The gap is growing. Keep adding 3rd world unskilled, illiterate immigrants, and funding multi-generational welfare, and letting welfare hacks continue. It will keep growing.

Too much is 30% of all our income tax. It's too much.

Hey you just mentioned his hair.

At least a few. Vote what you like. It's a matter of perception. I'm in favour of privatisation for example.

On the commy scale I'd say it goes (from low to high) from major parties, Labor > Green > Communist party. That's my onion... and I'm not saying to anyone "You are a XXXX".

and why do I think it's all about religion? Because if someone could just politely ask the Israels to "Pack up, leave the wall and the other sacred sites and move off somewhere". Maybe they can go to America, they seem to fund and protect Israel so much. Let Palestine have it. We could all save a fortune on security, and welfare. It's not about oil, or pipelines. It's about Israel's interests. The locations are so vital to a protected species, and we are all paying for it. That's what I think.
10:32pm 19/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25895 posts
Sounds like a lot of your opinions are based on the feels there champ.
10:52pm 19/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39019 posts
Yeh man you're totally entitled to have an opinion but you haven't really qualified WHY you believe any of these things that you have said. Also you didn't really answer any of my questions :(
Keep adding 3rd world unskilled, illiterate immigrants
I also agree we don't generally want unskilled illiterate immigrants (with exceptions for humanitarian reasons obvy) - but it's basically impossible to immigrate to Australia without passing a basic literacy test if you're from a non-English native speaking country. So I don't rate this as a big concern really.
nd funding multi-generational welfare
this is a real genuine problem but short of stopping funding our aged population I don't know what you expect to happen here..?
Too much is 30% of all our income tax. It's too much.
What is an appropriate amount of income tax then? 29%? I am not asking these questions to be a d*** (that's just a side effect), I'm trying to find out what you propose as an alternative and what your alternative is based on.
and why do I think it's all about religion? Because if someone could just politely ask the Israels to "Pack up, leave the wall and the other sacred sites and move off somewhere". Maybe they can go to America, they seem to fund and protect Israel so much. Let Palestine have it. We could all save a fortune on security, and welfare. It's not about oil, or pipelines. It's about Israel's interests. The locations are so vital to a protected species, and we are all paying for it. That's what I think.
well Israel basically has f*** all to do with the current refugee crisis but I agree it is a total clusterf***. Where do you think they should move to, out of interest? I suspect you don't think they should move to Australia
11:29pm 19/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3285 posts
Sounds like you've been drinking too much neoliberal conservative cool aid nmag. Of course the problem is the poor stealing our monies, and not our dear friends the wealthy elite!

For sure Pete, no doubt it's risky and unstable, we'll have to wait and see what they can get done of course. You have to admit though, it's a pretty stunning peaceful political revolution. When people talk about changing the system, within the democratic bounds, you can't get much realer than that! They changed their entire government almost overnight. All with a radical centre party. Kudos to them I say, we need that kind of thing in the UK, US and Aus imo. Seems to me they're right about France's laborious labour laws constraining their economic growth, I was stunned by the unemployment rates. Agree it'll be a difficult if not impossible battle to change, but they gots a majority!

I thought this was an interesting read.

Greed is not good: social critic Stuart Sim on the indignities of neoliberal capitalism

According to a Pew Research Center study, income inequality in the United States is as high as it’s been since 1928, just before the Great Depression. The trendlines are similar in Europe.

The villain in Sim’s story is neoliberalism, the prevailing economic ideology of our time. In the past three decades or so, he argues, policymakers have embraced four overlapping principles:

The government’s role in public services like health care and education should be diminished as much as possible.
Government regulations should be maximally eliminated.
Good and services should be privatized whenever possible.
Free enterprise should be completely liberated from regulatory bonds.

The promise of neoliberalism, Sim says, was that the market would deliver benefits for everyone. But instead, it has incentivized greed, glorified competition, and concentrated wealth in fewer and fewer hands.
05:40am 20/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2584 posts
Macron is a big deal. But he is proposing labour market reform and that doesn't have a strong history of success in France. Ironically enough he is proposing archetypal neoliberal labour market reforms.

Googled Stuart Sim, imagine my shock to discover Stuart Sim is a post-marxist. (let me do you a favour, it means marxist). And a post-structuralist (urgg).

Take a wild guess what I think of his opinion on anything.

The market has delivered massive benefits for everyone. don't make me link to Venezuela's inflation rate. Cause I will.

It is absolutely vital that conservatives and capitalists realises this before it deteriorates even further into an us-vs-them situation, but it's also vital that liberals and "the left" realise it as well because their rhetoric is just as divisive


Equally I think if you preach centrism, you should at least be able to point out where the center is.
07:16am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
792 posts
In America there is more of an issue with the range from poverty to rich, and in UK. We get bombarded with US and UK news. It's not as bad here, but it's nice to think the rich are exploiting people. It's the rich who want the 3rd world illiterates here. It helps hold lower end wages down. You think we don't have illiterates coming in? We are still paying for the ones that the Fraser gov let in, in the 1970's.

The same people voting to open borders, are complaining about how hard it is to get into the real-estate market, and how lower end wages are not going up fast enough, There are people who think "I'll just vote for the Greens, they seem more honest, they care for the environment and these major parties can't be trusted." Many people won't read policies, they can't even manage their household budget. It's not unusual to see a person broadcast that they proudly vote green because it's PC and sounds so warm and nice.

Much less than 30% of our income tax. Vash is talking about people (maybe my family) might need welfare one day if they are out of work. Maybe he does not realise that if you have worked hard and smart enough with money to have assets, you can't get welfare if you find yourself not employed for a period.

Multi-generational welfare, are an institution. no vote.

Bump vote age up to 21.

Criminals in prison, no vote. Violent criminals, sterilisation to prevent having more children,

Found convicted of terror related crime, not just the individual, but their whole immediate family (mum dad, brothers, sisters), all kicked out of country.

Reduce the religious and charity tax havens.

Stop allowing foreign investment in property.

Reduce the gambling culture.

I already said Israel could pack up and move to America, hand it over to Palestine.

I don't think here Democracy is perfect though. Three reasons:
>If you live in an area that is not marginal, the politicians don't throw as much funding at that area.
>Lobbying with donations enables big business to manipulate government. This donation thing to political parties is crap.
>Stick with the voted leader. With our local democracy it's annoying how much time they spend in-fighting over party leadership and reshuffles. If there was less of that, they might be more focused on serving the people.

well Israel basically has f*** all to do with the current refugee crisis


Yes it does. Basically, the west over-interfering in the middle east is a driver of extremism and resentment. It's one of the two main reasons for the hate on the west. The other reason for the hate is that the religion and culture tells them they are outstanding, however they are generally oppressed.. so who to blame again? The west. Can we even begin to think about how much money, lives, and disruption, it's costs to have the west (mostly America) helping Israel maintain this western strategic outpost in the middle of Muslim heartland over the decades, and it continues. Maybe there are descendants from Israel in very powerful places who want Israel protected no matter the cost?

This video doesn't seem over biased: https://youtu.be/s9xfK92Zv68

and another, similar: https://youtu.be/QyqUPYiP7tI

https://youtu.be/-mBLhc-Vzwc

The west interfering in middle east is the reason we have pissed off Muslims. Look at who runs mainstream media, Hollywood, who owns the most expensive land in even Australia, they have the power to lobby, and they lobby to protect Israel... we generally get the "Israel" view of the whole thing.
08:37am 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5385 posts
The market has delivered massive benefits for everyone. don't make me link to Venezuela's inflation rate. Cause I will.


Well that would be a dumb thing to do because Marxism isn't about the Government taking control of the economy. You seem to fail to grasp that, but that's ok.
How about i link you Zimbabwe's inflation rate? Or Greece's woes? And the vast amount of poverty world wide in market based economies?

Government decisions can f*** things up, regardless of the economic system.
08:41am 20/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2078 posts

Nmag are you worried about agrarian socialists?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/bob-katter-the-man-with-friends-in-odd-places-20130314-2g2m1.html

In his office, Katter sits under a picture of the Country party’s legendary leader, Jack McEwen, the high priest of protectionism. Katter himself is proud to be called an “agrarian socialist”.


So many reds under the beds.

I like it how Nmag complains about no handouts if you're not in a marginal seat yet hates welfare. Why doesn't your seat just pull itself up by the bootstraps instead of relying on government?


09:28am 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9440 posts
Stolen watermelons :: 13/09/2004 Announcer: Mr Anderson told a party function, the Greens weren't a viable alternative to the major parties. John Anderson: ...actually they are a home for the people who in the 1950s would have joined the communist party. They are watermelons, many of them green on the outside and very, very, very red on the inside. -ABC Radio News, 6 September 2004.


So your argument is that because people who would have supported the communist party now join the Greens, the Greens must be bad? S***, that's about as absurd as saying that because people who would have joined the Nazi party in the 30s and 40s now join the Republican or Liberal party, that those parties must be bad!
09:29am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
793 posts
I like it how Nmag complains about no handouts if you're not in a marginal seat yet hates welfare. Why doesn't your seat just pull itself up by the bootstraps instead of relying on government?


Nah I'm not talking just from my own interests here. I had this whole concept explained to me by a wealthy Christian Iraqi pro monarchy business owner who lives in a secure Labor seat. He explained how his seat is so secure, govt don't put in large infrastructure. The money goes to the marginal seats where they need to win votes. My area is nice, we worked hard, and made sacrifices.

So your argument is that because people who would have supported...


Well that's the general flavour, but to state that either is 'bad' is biased, they all have merits. It all depends on perspective, that's why our govt has seats, so there is a proportion of representation from the various views on bills. In the same flavour we can consider that there are many people who simply vote (or start out that way) whatever their parents voted. So, political views are in some ways transferred from parent to child. Much in the same way government employed school teachers, who embraced the left perspective at university may attempt to instil some left wing PC views onto primary school children. Much the way powerful trade unions will use union communication to encourage members how to vote. Like trades in some ways are handed down generations, so is political bias. Much the same way religion is passed down generation to generation. Much the same way a hatred of the west interfering and messing up the region is passed down from affected communities. These things tend to be passed down.

Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there. What are some that you want? More welfare, more investigations of corporate crime, save the environment, free train travel, no pay to use road tolls, open borders, stop mining, stop farming, stop eating animals, stop importing or exporting animals, increase international welfare, free university, increase pay for teachers & nurses, or equal pay for all, more free health.

I think the Justice system could do with a workout.
09:51am 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9441 posts
Well that's the general flavour, but to state that either is 'bad' is biased, they all have merits.

I'm reasonably confident that any 'merits' the Nazi party may have had is rather cancelled out by the pursuit of the world being populated solely by a race of blonde haired, blue eyed people - even if that does mean I get a free pass. If your argument is going to be "Well yes, that bits bad, but what about this other thing", no. That's when people need to stop listening to you - there's no ifs and buts on that kind of s***, and you don't get to defend it based on a caveat or other aspects.
11:29am 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
794 posts

Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there.

You have taken an extreme from 'all' so I find your contribution poor. To answer your earlier nit picking better:

I believe there have been elements in Green policy that align with communistic views.

I believe external communist influence is understated.

An influence-and-control operation by the Communist Party Part of this campaign involves attempts to influence Australian politicians via political donors closely aligned with the Communist Party — something that causes serious concern to Australia's security agency, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). But some of the 1 million ethnic Chinese living in Australia are also targets of the Communist Party's influence operations. On university campuses, in the Chinese-language media and in some community groups, the party is mounting an influence-and-control operation among its diaspora that is far greater in scale and, at its worst, much nastier than any other nation deploys. In China, it is known as qiaowu. Some analysts argue the party's efforts are mostly benign, ham-fisted or ineffective. Former Australian ambassador to China Geoff Raby stresses that influence operations are conducted by many countries. He singles out Israel as an example.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-04/the-chinese-communist-partys-power-and-influence-in-australia/8584270

Again, Instead of nit picking at comments I've expressed. Put your own out there.
11:41am 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12811 posts
Marxism isn't about the Government taking control of the economy


...and where are your merry Men ?

Israel is not responsible for the problems with Islam and the Middle East.
Islam is.

If the poor are increasing after decades of increasingly Socialist policies then, I dunno, maybe Socialism doesnt work ? Maybe Socialism works well for those who promote it ?

Sounds a bit like Religion.
12:11pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9442 posts
It's not nit-picking when we're criticising the foundation of the rationale and arguments you're using.

I am putting comments out there. My comments are sufficiently volumous in just replying to the drivel some of you lot manage to come out with when it comes to policy and political position, often poorly grounded.
12:14pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9443 posts
If the poor are increasing after decades of increasingly Socialist policies then, I dunno, maybe Socialism doesnt work ? Maybe Socialism works well for those who promote it ?


That's like saying that efforts to reduce global warming arn't working because temperatures keep increasing even though we continue to increasingly adopt renewable energy sources.

You know very well that the problems with capitalist ideals are being further abused and are causing the gap to widen. Socialist ideas are being attempted to reduce the damage done by capitalist following and abuse, but the limited implementation of contrasting policies can not keep up with the damage being done.
12:16pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
795 posts
It's not nit-picking when we're criticising the foundation of the rationale and arguments you're using. I am putting comments out there. My comments are sufficiently volumous in just replying to the drivel some of you lot manage to come out with when it comes to policy and political position, often poorly grounded.


I challenge Vash and fpot to the "tell us what you want" challenge. After going back a few pages it appears most content is Trumphobia, or pollytainment.

Vash, what do your friends who wear the masks want when they go to these protests? What do they want? Are they protesting against other people marching, or are they wanting something in particular, besides silencing people who could be far (any)wing nutcases.
12:42pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5387 posts
They want what any well adjusted person wants, without looking at it as a left vs right thing.

More equal distribution of wealth, non discrimination of people based on their racial background nor religion, and policy based more on fact & science than on feelings.

An example of people requiring masks were the protests at villawood detention center. People were defending this Iraqi person who would face certain death at deportation. Certain groups actually showed up and threatened death on the protestors just for showing humanity. Lunacy.

Media and Politicians ensure the conversation is magnified on a narrow narrative, as Chomsky's Manufacturing consent details. Such as Terrorism, Muslims, Immigrants and people on welfare.

What we really should be concentrating on and not being apathetic about, is how much wealth is moving away from lower & middle classes despite increases in productivity. And those same people caused the 2008 GFC. Capitalist greed will continue without change.
01:11pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
796 posts
Fair enough.
02:12pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12812 posts
Vashs AntiFa cohorts are "fashionable non-conformists" as Ayn Rand would call them.

Capitalism doesnt discriminate Vash.
You and your friends dont have the Right to confiscate the wealth of others just because you feel you are deserved something. You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.

Morally, the promise of an impossible “right” to economic security is an infamous attempt to abrogate the concept of rights. It can and does mean only one thing: a promise to enslave the men who produce, for the benefit of those who don’t.

“If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.”


http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/welfare_state.html

03:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16754 posts
You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.

The ... workers?
03:42pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5388 posts
You should be getting down on your hands and knees and thanking those that create the wealth.


I agree. I thank the workers that create the wealth for business & shareholders. Unfortunately they're not aware of how much they're being exploited today.
03:44pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12813 posts
Plenty of workers in Venezuela
How can they be starving ??

This is the hardest thing to get through peoples skulls about Adani.
The Mine creates Jobs that were never there.
That creates Jobs for those who supply the Mine
Those that feed the workers
Those that maintain the trucks the gear
But without Adani none of those things exist.

Those workers might as well be living in Venezuela.

04:13pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2079 posts
Pretty sure nationalising your country's resources is turning out pretty well in Norway.
04:26pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5389 posts
There's the ole Venezuela mentioned again.

Plenty of workers in Africa.
How can they be starving ??

This is the hardest thing to get through to peoples skulls about renewables.
Renewables create jobs that were never there.
04:28pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5390 posts

https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/hot-weather-is-getting-deadlier-due-to-climate-change

Right now, about 30 percent of the world’s population is exposed to deadly temperatures at least 20 days out of the year. By 2100, that number could reach 74 percent if greenhouse gas emissions continue to rise, or 48 percent with drastic cuts to global emissions. The findings have been published in Nature Climate Change. We spoke with Iain Caldwell, one of the study’s authors, to learn more.


This is partly why Chomsky claims the Republican party maybe the most dangerous organisation on earth, for the scope of damage their policy will have on humanity over the next century.
04:59pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39021 posts
This is the hardest thing to get through peoples skulls about Adani.
The Mine creates Jobs that were never there.
That creates Jobs for those who supply the Mine
Those that feed the workers
Those that maintain the trucks the gear
But without Adani none of those things exist.
haha wat

any a****** can make a bunch of jobs if they borrow a billion dollars

you've missed the point by so much further than usual. people aren't objecting to the mine because they're scared of job creation.

Why is it you're 100% OK with socialism when it's government money getting spent on coal mines? What other exceptions are there to your "socialism is bad" credo?!
06:01pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39022 posts
Nmag, I'd note that you are not addressing the specific issues or questions that are getting raised in response to things you're writing. You're kind of just working around them in your responses and stating a bunch of other opinions. I recommend using the QUOTE tag to carve out bits you want to reply to so we can have a conversation (put QUOTE and /QUOTE in point brackets around stuff you're addressing).
In America there is more of an issue with the range from poverty to rich, and in UK. We get bombarded with US and UK news. It's not as bad here, but it's nice to think the rich are exploiting people. It's the rich who want the 3rd world illiterates here. It helps hold lower end wages down. You think we don't have illiterates coming in? We are still paying for the ones that the Fraser gov let in, in the 1970's.
I'm sure there are a few but the simple fact is there are already laws that stop people immigrating into this country if they are not literate and cannot speak English. I believe there is talk of toughening them up but the existing laws are fine for me.
The same people voting to open borders, are complaining about how hard it is to get into the real-estate market, and how lower end wages are not going up fast enough,
I'm pretty sure the impoverished refugees that you're referring to are not the ones driving up the housing market. The overriding concern in the housing market is not because we're filling up with refugees.
Much less than 30% of our income tax.
OK so can we agree you don't know what the "right" tax rate is? You just know 30% is too high, but you don't know why you think it's too high.

I don't know what the right rate is either but I know you can't just toss out 30% as a number without thinking about things like regressive taxes. 30% for a rich person is nothing; 30% for a person is a huge deal. Surely you don't think all people should pay the same rate?!
Vash is talking about people (maybe my family) might need welfare one day if they are out of work. Maybe he does not realise that if you have worked hard and smart enough with money to have assets, you can't get welfare if you find yourself not employed for a period.
Yes well welfare isn't there to help those who have money and assets, it's there to keep people from starving in the streets in the hope they can get back on their feet and become productive members of society.
The west interfering in middle east is the reason we have pissed off Muslims.
I don't think anyone disagrees with that but generally they seem to be pissed off anyway because of subtle differences in their skybeard beliefs.
06:15pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39023 posts
I believe there have been elements in Green policy that align with communistic views.
For example...?!

Bear in mind that when someone was s***ting on Trump, you just pasted a link to his policy page and say "see, all Trump's policies are fine". So I will do the same: Greens policies. (Hint: The most communist thing I can see is Economics/12: "Natural monopolies and essential public services should generally be in public ownership." ... which I wholeheartedly agree with.
06:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12814 posts
Hmmm let me think about this...

Its wrong for Government to offer incentives for Businesses to develop resources because that would create Jobs and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services

as opposed to

Making Electricity unaffordable and demolishing Jobs.

HOUSEHOLDS will pocket $3 billion in power-price subsidies over the next four years, with the Queensland Government’s coffers flush with a windfall from coal royalties.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/power-bills-cut-for-queenslands-lowincome-earners-using-coal-cash/news-story/8f4969fba25e6754e9bfecafe57dbcaa

Struggle St cant afford Power Bill increases, they Vote.
The LNP are talking about building a new Coal Power Station in North QLD
Australian businesses with crushing Power Bills will move to QLD and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/lnp-pledges-to-fasttrack-a-coalfired-baseload-power-station/news-story/a1f9915a6e0b15fdaef2820f3397816a


06:43pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
797 posts
I'm not going to be copy pasting dissecting and replying to ongoing questions of detail. It's about concept not numbers.

30% for a rich person is nothing; 30% for a person is a huge deal. Surely you don't think all people should pay the same rate?


Nah you miss read what I typed. 30% of our income tax goes to welfare. If you pay 60k income tax, 20k is going to welfare. Seems high to me.

OK so can we agree you don't know what the "right" tax rate is? You just know 30% is too high, but you don't know why you think it's too high.


Your tone could do with review if you expect answers to your questions. You should know we a have scaled system. No tax till about 20k, then it goes up in brackets. If you earn a great deal you get to pay more. If you choose to work 5 days instead of 3 you get penalised.
06:55pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39026 posts
Its wrong for Government to offer incentives for Businesses to develop resources because that would create Jobs and generate more Economic Activity and fill the coffers with money from Exports that help fund services
This is literally exactly what welfare is, except for people instead of businesses. So I'm glad we agree welfare is necessary(?)

I don't really get the rest of your post sorry. My point was that people aren't opposed to coal mining because they hate job creation and money created through export. They're opposed to it because people don't want staggering amounts of support for the fossil fuel industry any more.

Banks though.. they seem to be opposed to it because they think it is legit financially not viable. So if that is the case do you think governments should step in to cover the shortfall? If it's profitable and will make heaps of money and jobs for everyone shouldn't that be something the private sector is falling all over itself to get into, especially while debt is so cheap?!
06:57pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39027 posts
I'm not going to be copy pasting dissecting and replying to ongoing questions of detail. It's about concept not numbers.
Yes well I am trying to understand why you believe the concepts you do. Because ultimately you must think the way you do because of some base level of facts, right? And so far I feel like your responses are light on facts and strong on, as fpot says, feels. So I'm hoping that by trying to discuss facts in the cold hard light of day we might be able to agree on a base reality from which we can have a proper discussion.
Nah you miss read what I typed. 30% of our income tax goes to welfare. If you pay 60k income tax, 20k is going to welfare. Seems high to me.
OK I see what you are saying now. (Hard to follow without the quotes).

By the way if you're paying 60k income tax you're earning about 200k/year. So 10% of your actual income is going to support those on welfare (which includes the aged, disabled, etc).

I almost certainly agree with you that there is fat in the system that could be trimmed. But my question, as it has been for the last few attempts, is the same: how much do you think is appropriate to be spending?
Your tone could do with review if you expect answers to your questions.
How you interpret my tone is on you; I thought that was pretty neutral considering I've asked you a bunch of direct questions and so far you've not really answered any of them :D

FWIW I have no expectations. I am pretty confident I won't change your mind (most science shows that conversations like this are totally counter-productive and will probably leave you walking away believing in your beliefs even harder than before. That is of course not what I want but I simply can't help myself and enjoy trying to understand why people think the way they do. I thank you for your patience in answering so far because most people usually have given up by this point.
07:05pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
798 posts
you just pasted a link to his policy page and say "see, all Trump's policies are fine


I posted a link to his policies and said something like "show me which ones impact on Australia".

You're misreading again.
09:25pm 20/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39028 posts
I posted a link to his policies and said something like "show me which ones impact on Australia".

You're misreading again.
Not sure about that. Someone posted something about Trump's policies that you took exception to and asked for evidence. Then you posted something about the Greens policies (i.e., saying they are communist-ish) that I took exception to and just asked for clarification. I was drawing a parallel.

Anyway, that is not really the important part. I will happily admit to misreading if we can move on to the question about what bits of the Greens policies you think are communist.

The reason I am really interested in this is because when I made that little voting tool a few years ago it had a bunch of policy questions and a bunch of people emailed me saying that it was broken because it told them they should vote Green. People were simply stunned to find out that their policy preferences overlapped so strongly with the Greens. So I have this belief now that many people simply don't know what the policies are of basically any of the parties outside of a few key issues that are focused on by our mutual enemy, The Media

edit: I should stress I'm not a die hard greens supporter. They have policies that I think are dumb too (e.g., their anti-nuclear stance, although it's kind of irrelevant given none of the other parties are exactly pro nuclear). If they exhibited an even remotely communist tendency I would jump ship in a heartbeat. But I have not seen anything like that.
10:09pm 20/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2585 posts
How about i link you Zimbabwe's inflation rate? Or Greece's woes?


you mean marxist revolutionary mugabe's zimbabwe. Tell me more please.

Or Greece's totally unsustainable social spending program. Please go on.

Just remarkable.
10:36pm 20/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3286 posts
^^ I lol'd.

Yah Macron has an impossible mission for sure, I eagerly await the results. Didn't seem to me his policies were overtly neoliberal in nature, he's after free markets and globalism but with reasonable socialistic regulation I thought. I'll go have a look. I'm not sure where the centre is anymore tbh, where do you think it is?
03:27am 21/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5391 posts


you mean marxist revolutionary mugabe's zimbabwe. Tell me more please.

Or Greece's totally unsustainable social spending program. Please go on.

Just remarkable.


Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.
06:45am 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39029 posts
Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.
Are you a free market economy if your government is running up totally unsustainable debt in the background? What is that called? (aside from "western civilisation" ahahahaa)
07:08am 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2586 posts
I'd say Macron is close to my estimation of centerist, but It has to be noted that
he's after free markets and globalism


Is neo-liberal in my view. He has been pretty clear that labor market reform in France has to happen and he is pushing for a Keating style reform.


The Greens are not a garden variety left party any more than one nation are a garden variety right party. They are much further apart than labour and liberal (who fwiw I think are further apart than the general Australian population).

But something that does drive me up the wall is their tolerance of Marxism. I can't be bothered running through policies because I have already, but their view on IP is boardline Marxist, and seriously economically illiterate. In particular their view on Plant Breeders Rights is verging on Lysenkoism.

lee rhiannon is a communist, she was a member of the communist party. That is exactly as acceptable as an unrepentant nazi being elected to parliament. but for what ever reason Marxism gets viewed with kid gloves, despite overwhelming evidence its at least as dangerous as Nazism, and probably far more so.

Greece is a free market economy is it not? Government decisions created their woes,just as in Venezuela.


Holy s*** Vash. 18 words to to self defeating station all a board. That has to be a record. If irony had a physical weight, you could club a seal pup to death with that vash.
07:45am 21/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25896 posts
The Greens are as bad as nazis, gotcha.
07:54am 21/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5392 posts
Are you a free market economy if your government is running up totally unsustainable debt in the background? What is that called? (aside from "western civilisation" ahahahaa)


Certainly not Marxism as PP chants on about. It's Government spending getting out of control, simple as that. But it's Socialism because they're spending too much! /yawn

Also, Government not having any debt isn't desirable, as much as having too much is.

08:09am 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2080 posts

So many reds under the beds in Aussie politics. Watch out!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society

The Australian Fabians (also known as the Australian Fabian Society) was established in 1947. Inspired by the Fabian Society in the United Kingdom, it is dedicated to Fabianism, the focus on the advancement of socialist ideas through gradual influence and patiently promoting socialist ideals to intellectual circles and groups with power.
Notable members:
Prime Ministers
Gough Whitlam (ALP Prime Minister 1972–75)
Bob Hawke (ALP Prime Minister 1983–1991)
Paul Keating (ALP Prime Minister 1991–1996)
Julia Gillard (ALP Prime Minister 2010– 2013)


09:43am 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
799 posts
The anonymously made spreadsheet pol has some curious things going on. However I missed the whole discussion. Maybe debunked. I don't really care.

> Greens and Socialists have addressed more policy subjects that any other parties. Good on them.
> Greens and Socialists have so many the same.
> Nationals, Labor, and Liberals have so many blanks? What have they been doing? They should address these important issues.
> So many blanks for migration with OneNation?

And my answer is still "less".. But hey I made a mistake Trog, in your favour. I said "30% of income tax" and then something about "20k in 60k", which is wrong, it's less than 20k.

If I find the source. It explains where the other 70% of our income tax goes, and illustrates my point a bit better.

That 30% won't get into the pockets of the people who need it. Most likely, like most donation type systems, up to 70 & 80% can be chewed up in the "administrative costs".
10:51am 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2081 posts
11:05am 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
800 posts
I'll have a look later. Thanks. The one I saw was on our Tax Return when some money comes back. I think everyone (who pays income tax, and put in a return) would have got it.
11:33am 21/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9446 posts
Plenty of workers in Venezuela
How can they be starving ??

If you think what's going on in Venezuela is to do with socialism, you're (mostly) mistaken. Venezuelas problems are largely because they relied on state-owned oil exports to provide income for all of the countries citizens, and then the oil market tanked with them having nothing to fall back on as an export. It'd be like if gas, coal or oil exports dried up out of Australia - at least we have wool, meat, milk, grain and other exports to fall back on. Who they're owned by is irrelevant.
12:08pm 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39031 posts
If I find the source. It explains where the other 70% of our income tax goes, and illustrates my point a bit better.
yeh I know the source - every Australian tax payer gets the breakdown when they file their tax. I actually still have mine on my desktop as I've only just finished filing for 2016 (ARGH). FWIW the percentage for my tax that was welfare was 39%. So same as in the above image.

I am sure there is administrative waste but 70%-80% is a number you literally plucked out of your ass and it's important that you acknowledge that because if you continue to think that you will be operating under some pretty big misconceptions.

The first link I can find in a half-assed look is an article from the Australian which says it's "14 per cent of total government spending and about 16 per cent of its revenues".

Is that "too much"? Who knows. There will obviously be a lot of waste in there. I suspect it's a bit higher now (numbers are from 2015).

The important thing isn't that there IS administrative overhead though - that is inevitable; the important thing is that we continue to strive for the right balance between administrative waste caused by these programmes and not having them at all. So (IMO) our focus should be on transparency and accountability of our officials, not randomly trying to drop the amount of tax we pay because we think it's "too high". Everyone always wants to pay less tax! I'd like to pay less tax!
05:58pm 21/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39032 posts
I should add:

The concept of constantly moving back and forth on issues as we circle around an unattainable perfect ideal is starting to dominate my thinking in almost everything these days. It is clear that for many questions there is not one single right answer. Some issues are simply too complicated for people to deal with or even understand, and many of these it's impossible for us to come to any sort of agreement.

We are pulled "left" and "right" (to use those simplistic terms that I hate to define political viewpoints) by the extremes on both sides. In the "middle" there are still people that lean one way or the other. So there is a constant back and forth happening as various sides raise their view points, introduce new evidence, are swayed by new events and (less often) new facts.

For example: many issues today are being framed in the context of the threat of terrorism. The Australian government (and the UK one) believe an appropriate response is to start snooping on all our communications, something they're trying to get legislation through in order to do (this will fail).

So there is a tug-of-war going on here - a push by the government to try to convince us that we'll be more secure if we give up some of our privacy, and others pushing back saying it is an ineffective violation of our civil rights.

All I'm trying to say here is that in the context of welfare payments, of course it would be great if none of us had to pay as much tax to keep old people, poor people and disabled people from dying in the street (because make no mistake, at some point this is what we are talking about here). But we also don't expect them to get free government money and live in luxury at the cost of everyone else. And we certainly don't expect our bureaucrats to be skimming a percentage off the top (I learned a new black burning hatred of middlemen while in the US), but we must acknowledge that there is a price to be paid in order to have people providing these services.

We just need to strive to keep them accountable and honest and make sure they're doing the best job they can with the resources that we give them. And that requires as much understanding of the facts as we can spare time to have in our busy lives which are spent working so we can pay for all this stuff.
06:12pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
802 posts

Yes, I'm not serious about the administrative costs. More an opportunity to slip in that people who donate to international aid could be in for a shock if they knew the admin costs. It's an outrage that Choice Magazine has done articles on. The actual admin costs are very low for welfare and can be seen looking at the link from Sir Redhat.

^ You can get a pretty detailed breakdown here. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-03/budget-2016-sliced-diced-interactive/7363834#spending/breakdown/2017/social-security-and-welfare


06:29pm 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2587 posts
I think I've found something more around your reading comprehension levels fpot.


If you think what's going on in Venezuela is to do with socialism, you're (mostly) mistaken. Venezuelas problems are largely because they relied on state-owned oil exports to provide income for all of the countries citizens, and then the oil market tanked with them having nothing to fall back on as an export. It'd be like if gas, coal or oil exports dried up out of Australia - at least we have wool, meat, milk, grain and other exports to fall back on. Who they're owned by is irrelevant.


I think you are really wrong about this.

For a start, the state owned oil company you're talking about was nationalized by the current government for straightforwardly marxist reasons. They then also went on the mother of all spending sprees and issued some spastic amount of debt, guaranteed against the state oil revenue.

They expanded the number of people employed by the oil company from around 20,000 to over 100,000 again for plainly marxist reasons, destroying the profitability of the company in the process.

They then introduced price controls on basic commodities and then funded the price controls by issues more debt (again standard marxist approach)

By preventing private capital from diversifying the economy they then became reliant totally on oil revenue. And then the oil price tanked.

The reason Australia has other industries to fall back on is because the state has a minimal hand in Australian industry.

So actually the state ownership of their oil company plays a critical role in their current predicament, and the reason the oil is stated owned is precisely because they are socialist/marxist. a privately owned company is simply incapable of creating the debt issue which is critical to the current state of affairs.

Moreover their marxist/socialist policy in relation to "price controls" directly exacerbate the problem.

You can lay Venezuela's woes directly at the feet of socialism.
08:27pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9447 posts
As I said before - Venezuela's problem had nothing to do with who owned or made profit from the oil. Their problem was that they used oil as a sole source of income, and had nothing of significance to prop them up when noone wanted to buy oil from them anymore. This would have happened whether it was BP owning the fields and employing 100,000 people locally, or if they were the government as they were. Petroleum was a massive 95% of the entire countries exports - in fact, more official figures put it at 98.6%.

For a comparison I attempted to come up with a comparison as if that were Australia - to list the combination of everything we export that would make up 95% of our exports, and I can't come close. Iron ore only is 20%. Mining in total - all minerals - is about 50%. But it's a huge, varied list of minerals. Their next biggest export was gold - not even $1b worth of it. Australia exports $12b of gold annually, and that only makes up 6.6% of our exports.

Socialism was not the problem here - a reliance on a single commodity as a source of income in a global market with numerous competitors that underwent a drastic change - that was the problem. Actually, no, that's not fair. It was just plain stupid to run an entire country on a single export commodity.

last edited by Raven at 20:47:52 21/Jun/17
08:46pm 21/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2588 posts
yeah but to reach that conclusion Raven you have to ignore the government debt that was being used to fund pricing controls. And the fact BP would never have allowed oil infrastructure to cost money to run. (way more money than it is capable of making).

The oil price collapsing wouldn't have caused the issues it did if their insane debt levels had not suddenly became totally impossible to service.

Price controls around basic commodities as well as capital restrictions (which are marxist policy ideas) are the reason Venezuela doesn't have a diversified economy and Australia not having those things is the reason we do. Saying ownership is irrelevant because its just a matter of over reliance on a single export and therefore its not socialism's fault, overlooks the critical role socialist economic policy plays in them being over reliant on a single export.

It is not a case that "anyone" owning the state oil company would have seen the same outcome.

The reason they are totally f***ed, is the fact the state nationalised the oil company, destroyed its productivity and borrowed against oil in the ground to fund price controls which in turn prevented the economy diversifying itself.

it's the combination of state ownership and the socialist policy suite it enabled (that simply would not be possible under a private ownership model) that is the cause of their issues.
09:10pm 21/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2082 posts

They expanded the number of people employed by the oil company from around 20,000 to over 100,000 again for plainly marxist reasons, destroying the profitability of the company in the process.

They then introduced price controls on basic commodities and then funded the price controls by issues more debt (again standard marxist approach)


Would love a Karl Marx quote where he directed this
12:47am 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2589 posts
are you seriously suggesting that centralised government price controls are not a straightforward application of marxist principles?

And that the expansion of employment because it really belongs to the workers anyway is inconstant with marxist thinking?

or are you just dumb
06:52am 22/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2083 posts
Yeah it's coming back to me now, Marx definately said expand the workforce even if it leads to inefficiencies.

You call out Vash for not reading Marx but you just splash around "marxist principles" when really you mean fail versions of communism. It's the same as Facemans "cultural marxism"
07:18am 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2590 posts
You can't possibly be serious.

Of course Marx never said or implied efficiency isn't the goal of production. Its just every single country that has applied his principles did that for kicks. Has nothing to do with the labour theory of value. just a total coincidence.



Edit
Oh there it is.

it wasn't really marxism.

That didn't take long.

You are dumb

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say it isn't coming back to you because you didn't read it in the first place
07:23am 22/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2084 posts
I haven't read all his texts, but I have read the communist manifesto and das kapital. There was a lot about class struggle and workers owning the means of production, but not much on what you labelled as "marxist".

You should start with the manifesto, it's a short read and shouldn't take you long.

Your insults are hilarious and probably come from you being frustrated with your own weak arguments.
09:12am 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
804 posts

Top billing on ABC News this morning. Above Origin, we have two articles on how nasty Hanson is.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-21/pauline-hanson-under-fire-repulsive-bigoted-comments-autism/8640328

What comment did she make that was "repulsive, bigoted' per the click bait heading.

We already do attempt to segregate based on educational ability just like we do in competitive sport. I get the feeling some people don't like competition. An army moves as fast as it's slowest members.

Key points: Children with disabilities putting strain on teachers, schools, Senator Hanson says Other children 'held back' by teachers spending time with children with disabilities, she says No evidence to support Senator Hanson's claims, disability advocate says
"These kids have a right to an education, by all means, but, if there are a number of them, these children should go into a special classroom and be looked after and given that special attention," she said. "Most of the time the teacher spends so much time on them they forget about the child who is straining at the bit and wants to go ahead in leaps and bounds in their education. "That child is held back by those others, because the teachers spend time with them. "I am not denying them. If it were one of my children I would love all the time given to them to give them those opportunities. But it is about the loss for our other kids. "I think that we have more autistic children, yet we are not providing the special classrooms or the schools for these autistic children. "It is no good saying that we have to allow these kids to feel good about themselves and that we do not want to upset them and make them feel hurt. "I understand that, but we have to be realistic at times and consider the impact this is having on other children in the classroom."


"repulsive, bigoted' (political reporters Jane Norman and Eliza Borrello)

I think there will be evidence.


09:55am 22/06/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
731 posts
To be fair, ABC's title had 'bigoted' in quotations, clearly identifying it as a quote from someone. That someone was Autism Australia chief executive Nicole Rogerson.

We already do attempt to segregate based on educational ability just like we do in competitive sport. I get the feeling some people don't like competition. An army moves as fast as it's slowest members.

...what the f*** are you on about? Read the article. No evidence that shows removing retards from classrooms has any effect on other students learning capabilities. It disadvantages the disabled kids and does nothing else to benefit anyone. Also, if you think competition is grand, why segregate the kids, scared they're gonna whoop your kids ass because of their retard strength?

P.S where do we segregate people on their educational abilities?
01:00pm 22/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25900 posts
I think I've found something more around your reading comprehension levels fpot.
whoa dude. Total bazinga.

The Greens are not a garden variety left party any more than one nation are a garden variety right party. They are much further apart than labour and liberal (who fwiw I think are further apart than the general Australian population).

But something that does drive me up the wall is their tolerance of Marxism. I can't be bothered running through policies because I have already, but their view on IP is boardline Marxist, and seriously economically illiterate. In particular their view on Plant Breeders Rights is verging on Lysenkoism.

lee rhiannon is a communist, she was a member of the communist party. That is exactly as acceptable as an unrepentant nazi being elected to parliament. but for what ever reason Marxism gets viewed with kid gloves, despite overwhelming evidence its at least as dangerous as Nazism, and probably far more so.


The greens are not a normal left party. They have borderline (boardline heh maybe you should read a Spot book or two) marxist policies. One of their members was a member of the communist party and is also a marxist. Marxists are probably far more dangerous than nazis. What part did I misread?
02:45pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5393 posts
Marxists more dangerous than Nazis, thats hilarious.
PP always brings on the lols.
03:01pm 22/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25901 posts
Lee Rhiannon - Marxist

Lee is a Senator for NSW, and has been a passionate activist for environment and social justice movements over five decades. Her portfolios include housing, democracy, industry, animal welfare and gun control.

Lee is an Australian Greens Senator for NSW. Prior to this, she was a Greens MP in NSW Parliament for over a decade. Lee spent this time pursuing reform in key areas like the environment, mining, public education, industrial relations and public transport. One of her most influential campaigns has been to stop the corrupting influence of political donations.

Lee is well-known for her energetic work in environment and social justice movements over five decades. She co-founded AID/WATCH and was its director for five years. Lee has been a long-time advocate for asylum seekers and refugees and regularly visits Villawood Detention Centre.

Lee was an organiser of the 1983 Women for Survival Pine Gap peace camp, Secretary of the Union of Australian Women (NSW Branch) and an organiser for Women Against Global Violence. In the early 1980s Lee was a member of the NSW Women’s Advisory Council that advised the NSW Premier.

In 2001 Lee initiated the annual Juanita Nielsen Memorial Lecture to honour the achievements of the community activist who was murdered in the 1970s for her stand against over-development in Kings Cross.

Lee has worked with the Rainforest Information Centre and for a number of trade unions. She trained as a zoologist and botanist.


Heinrich Himmler - Nazi

On Hitler's behalf, Himmler formed the Einsatzgruppen and built extermination camps. As facilitator and overseer of the concentration camps, Himmler directed the killing of some six million Jews, between 200,000 and 500,000 Romani people, and other victims; the total number of civilians killed by the regime is estimated at eleven to fourteen million people. Most of them were Polish and Soviet citizens.


Probably more dangerous than a nazi!!!!!
04:36pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39033 posts
Top billing on ABC News this morning. Above Origin, we have two articles on how nasty Hanson is.
to be fair anything is more interesting than Origin news

I had a quick look around at other sites to see what their top story was and the only one worse than the ABC was The Australian, which also had above fold story for Hanson but then it GOT WORSE:

https://trog.qgl.org/up/1706/australian-hanson-corby.jpg

augh the media
05:19pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5394 posts
05:22pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
805 posts
...what the f*** are you on about? Read the article. No evidence that shows removing retards from classrooms has any effect on other students learning capabilities. It disadvantages the disabled kids and does nothing else to benefit anyone. Also, if you think competition is grand, why segregate the kids, scared they're gonna whoop your kids ass because of their retard strength? P.S where do we segregate people on their educational abilities?


From Yrs 7-10 for me we had about 5 classes. From the A class to the 'vege' class. You could be in A for math, B for science, C for english, some classes were not scaled on performance.

In years 11 and 12 we chose which level of math we wanted to do. Physics, engineering science, home economics, or art. These were considerations towards further studies. You cannot just walk in and do 3 or 4 unit maths. Like many things in life there were prerequisites.

If keeping up with the syllabus is holding other kids back, because teacher can't afford to help little Johnny so much more, then yah, you have various classes, if little Johnny's mum can't organise tutoring etc. A "Class System". Class systems are fantastic.

From the age 14 in soccer it is no longer equal time on field, you can play the best team, and it gets competitive. Teams are graded.

When we grow up, our pay reviews are aligned with performance reviews and ability meet metrics. There have been 'cultures' such as public service where there was an expectation that people who are there longer get promoted. I can understand that this type of system may be more suitable for some, and that is why things have moved away from it.

You can represent zone in Athletics at like 6 years old or something.

WTF are you on about? The quoted guy is basically saying "i have not seen any evidence that this would be beneficial". He's trying to say "show me the evidence".

The mother (who may carry autistic genes) of an Autistic child says:

Autism Australia chief executive Nicole Rogerson, whose 21-year-old son Jack has autism. She said she felt sick when she heard Senator Hanson's "repulsive, bigoted and hurtful" comments and argued they took "the discussion about inclusive education back about 50 years".


Starting to sound like some feels going on with Nicole Rogerson.

and now your going to say "Show me the evidence". It's common sense. I know enough teachers to know there is a huge focus on identifying any kid with a learning issue, and if required, getting them assistance that does not require the teacher to chew up her hours on the slower learners.

Do you think dividing 100 kids up by the Surname and then each teacher having to spread across the range in capabilities is ideal?

Not efficient, and not environmentally friendly either.

Think of the environment. I'm thinking of the environment.

bigoted ˈbɪɡətɪd/Submit adjective obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.


Is "bigoted" basically, don't disagree with me on a sensitive subject, you might hurt my feelings?
05:51pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
152 posts
You do realise that kids with autism have the full spectrum of intelligence the rest of society has right?
06:40pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39035 posts
I f*****g love that you bolded the bit about class systems after we spent all that time talking about trying to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor
06:52pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
806 posts

It's not specifically about Autism, it's about children with special learning needs. There would be autistic kids that don't have special educational needs, and some that simply benefit from certain teaching techniques, like everyone does, and being considerate of their needs, There are children with learning disorders. ABC simply used her reference to autism as a trigger to engage rage against the right wing. Simple as that. Subject irrelevant. There is bigger news, but they pumped that one for all it's got.

Special Needs Teacher says:

Where I work, there have been students that clearly could not function in the mainstream sector. That is when support teachers have had to find an alternative setting, usually a school with more of a focus on pathways designed specifically for special needs children. This idea of "special classrooms" may seem like an easy fix to some, but it is just not a practical solution in all cases, given there are often up to five students with special needs in one mainstream classroom. For me, the most troubling part of Senator Hanson's comments was that she implied these special needs students were the biggest strain on teachers and schools. From my experience, the teacher and I spend just as much time dealing with students who have poor behaviour, attitude, and lack of interest in school work. They can be just as disruptive to a classroom as the extra five minutes a teacher may have to take to explain something to a child with special needs. Being a school officer can be taxing because of the amount of time you spend explaining and re-explaining things, constantly encouraging them to complete a task, helping to calm them down and to stay focused.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-22/pauline-hanson-autism-what-really-happens-in-the-classroom/8642848

Sounds like it already happens... and many kids without diagnosed disorders can be disruptive to the other students and they generally get a bit less 'inclusion' as well when sent to the principal, or suspended.

I f*****g love that you bolded the bit about class systems after we spent all that time talking about trying to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor


I know, I shouldn't do that. It's like flicking a lure out over a rippling stream going for trout, rather that sitting under a bridge. I'll try not to enrage, it doesn't help.

5 pm they bumped it on Facebook. They had it up near top on ABC news Front page.

Now article looks to be pulled and Hanson is saying (article 30 mins ago):

"For the Greens or anyone else to come out and say I do not believe they should be in our classrooms is a lie."


"It's your ABC"
07:08pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39036 posts
So presumably your approach is to tax us a little bit more so we can provide a more appropriate environment for every child based on their precise class? Or what, exactly
07:10pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
807 posts

For the last week I've been going on about the same things, but they are separate, but related in some ways I guess.

> That graph with "Welfare" in red across the top of the Tax Return page is surprising. Surprised me, may have surprised others. Lets be aware of it.
> Trump can act like a d******* and it might be entertaining, but so what, we have our own issues, and trump hate is almost fanatical in Australia considering he leads 4.4 % world population.
> Beware the commies. It's understated, the "soft push". Soft push is being used a great deal.
> Even ABC twists and manipulates news, and by something as simple as selecting what they put on their Facebook page, will alter "Most Popular" on their website. Even if it outranks arguably more relevant, and more neutral news.

Side note. Check out Sydney:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/map/where-australias-immigrants-were-born-sydney


07:39pm 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2591 posts
workers owning the means of production


Yes it is simply impossible to get from there to massively over employing a means of production.

I've read the communist manifesto actually. Why don't we swap favorite parts, mine are the communist articles of faith (fitting I think you'll agree if you think it has any intellectual value), and the notion that we should abolish prostitution by abolishing marriage. Marx was a f*****g clown and his principles on economics have caused more misery and suffering then virtually any other economic system you can name.

If you read those books and didn't pick up the labour theory of value, proletariat control of the means of production, and the abolition of private property you need to call your English teacher, because you got ripped off.

Probably more dangerous than a nazi!!!!!


Did you get to the end of Spot fpot. if we are talking about Himmler

These chaps killed more people each than Himmler fpot. Yeah marxism is way more dangerous than nazism. Ideologically my good chum, not an arbitrary Marxist is more dangerous than an Arbitrary Nazi. I note you didn't choose Richard Spencer. Please erect a more compelling strawman.

I can go on. Not members of a single government which reigned for under a decade. Multiple countries millions of people for more than half a century. If you can't unequivocally repudiate that you are as trog would say, a train wreck of humanity. Little lee can't.
07:43pm 22/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39037 posts
I know, I shouldn't do that. It's like flicking a lure out over a rippling stream going for trout, rather that sitting under a bridge. I'll try not to enrage, it doesn't help.
I'm not enraged, I'm pointing out that your views seem to be inconsistent depending on the particular narrative you're working with at the time. e.g., in this thread you are espousing two conflicting points of view - belief in class-based systems based on nothing but performance and concerns about the increasing wealth gap. Concerns with our schooling offerings for disabled people not being sufficient enough vs your desire to cut back on taxes and welfare.

If I'm enraged at anything it is you complaining that people keep talking about Trump, by continuing to bring up Trump
08:19pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5396 posts

Yes PP, because an ideology intentionally murdering people vs deaths caused by economic woes are the same thing.
Lee Rhiannon if put in a position of power to implement widespread Marxist policy would certainly lead to millions of deaths, right? Heh.

How about we count the immense amount of deaths at the hands of Capitalism to make it fair? I think you'd find it far more, and that's even without Nazism latched on.

edit:
here you go, for abit of an idea.
https://maoistrebelnews.com/2010/12/30/capitalism-known-true-evil/


10:17pm 22/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
808 posts
Yes, if we reduce the gap expanding that would be good. I'm very much into competition. The two don't have to necessarily conflict.

Reducing 'range' can be removing some of the uncharacteristic anomalies at either, or both ends.
11:21pm 22/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2592 posts
Yes PP, because an ideology intentionally murdering people vs deaths caused by economic woes are the same thing.


Yes the cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers of chavez were all accidents. Woops.

I've no intention of going another 10 rounds Vash.

Marxism is blight on humanity, and were Lee able to implement the policies she truly wants to its incredibly likely that millions would die.

Replacing private property with communal property is a demonstrated catastrophic failure. If you engage in it today, you are intentionally murdering people. its that simple. we know how it ends without exception.

You are an illiterate moron who continually whinges about the lack of education in the general electorate despite the fact you love marxism and think chomsky is someone worth listening to, by comparison the electorate has figured out they are both morons.
07:21am 23/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21286 posts
07:50am 23/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40638 posts
love that redhat battles super deep over politics being ever so clever, yet still cant work out why wearing a bike helmet is a good idea when riding a biek.

sigh.
07:59am 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5397 posts
Yes the cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers of chavez were all accidents. Woops.


Specific to Marxist leaders are they? Woops.

Nor are the economies of Africa or SE Asia the real versions of Capitalism i suppose?
No we blame Corruption or other things.

But when Venezuela is f***ed, its because of Socialism. Greece is a free market economy, oh it's still because of socialism, yet there isn't a hint of Socialism in that country.
08:03am 23/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9449 posts
yet still cant work out why wearing a bike helmet is a good idea when riding a biek.


I think it's best I leave this thread alone for a bit until I manage to forget this comment made an appearance. It's for the best.
09:25am 23/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40639 posts
As a procyclist ud be all for protecting your brain while riding, surely.
11:33am 23/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21287 posts
I think it's best I leave this thread alone for a bit until I manage to forget this comment made an appearance. It's for the best.


yeah before you say something stupid
12:36pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9450 posts
yeah before you say something stupid

I practice every day to find some clever lines to say to make the meaning come through!
01:24pm 23/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25902 posts
If you engage in it today, you are intentionally murdering people. its that simple. we know how it ends without exception.
Just like if we continue on the same path we are today without sweeping changes. And now that Trump is making things considerably worse you can probably add a few more million. Modern capitalism kills, it's just that it's tucked away in the third world so people don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.
02:27pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5398 posts
Good point fpot. Trump's policies could very well lead to the deaths of 100s of millions indirectly by not acting on climate change.
It's interesting how little Nmag or PP consider how serious it is. Even those evil Marxists want to tackle the problem.
02:34pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2593 posts
Even those evil Marxists want to tackle the problem.

Yeah by making living standards the same as they were in 1753. It'll solve the problem of too much in the atmosphere, might want to get your carrier pigeons ready though.


Specific to Marxist leaders are they? Woops.


Was Marxist leader Hugo Chavez's paramilitary specific to Marxist leader Hugo Chavez. There's a chance of it my little train wreck of humanity. Just a chance.

Just like if we continue on the same path we are today without sweeping changes. And now that Trump is making things considerably worse you can probably add a few more million. Modern capitalism kills, it's just that it's tucked away in the third world so people don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.


Well a red herring is not a straw man I'll give you that. Bonus points for a veiled accusation of racism to, you are a sensitive boy. The third world's miseries are almost exclusively tied to not being capitalist. And the more capitalist a country in the third world is, the higher the standard of living. Across the board. As a quick point of reference compare Libya and Zimbabwe to Kenya.

What sweeping changes do you propose, and in relation to which problems. If you are talking about climate change, the near universal consensus is allowing a market to form around greenhouse gases will be the most effective way to mitigate it. That isn't a blow to capitalism, its another feather in its cap.

Seeing as you don't want to talk about it anymore, do you concede Marxism is more dangerous than Nazism?
07:45pm 23/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25905 posts
It's kind of cute how you ask people questions under the guise of having a debate with them when you're nothing more than a vexatious little douche.

When focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible becomes a tenant of marxism I'll concede. Until then I'll think the person making the claim marxism is as dangerous as nazism is a little unbalanced in their thinking.
08:12pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5399 posts
By your logic, let's blame everything a leader does in a Capitalist economy on Capitalism, then PP.
If you're looking at the actions of people who identify as Marxist, then surely you must follow the same line of reasoning when looking at the actions of Capitalist leaders.

So in that case, WW1 & WW2, was caused by Capitalism. The massive amounts of poverty & starvation in the world are also caused by Capitalism.
09:09pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2594 posts
It's kind of cute how you ask people questions under the guise of having a debate with them when you're nothing more than a vexatious little douche.


I think you're misspelling "losing to me in a debate" fpot.

When focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible becomes a tenant of marxism I'll concede. Until then I'll think the person making the claim marxism is as dangerous as nazism is a little unbalanced in their thinking.


Strawman-redherring-strawman, it's like a fallacy street fighter combo. Nazism didn't do that. I take it then that the fact that marxism has produced more numerous, more lethal death camps and those that didn't die in death camps starved to death as a direct result of Marxist economic principles in orders of magnitude more than the nazis ever killed, is fine because they say they didn't mean it? Though obviously you can't "accidentally" run a political re-education death camp. Just 'soz guys, who knew taking everyone's property away would end in them all starving, my bad, oh and sorry for killing anyone who said taking everyone's property away will end in them starving" makes it ok.

cause that option is open to you. You just can't ever demand anyone provide evidence to you again, unhypocritically.

If you're looking at the actions of people who identify as Marxist, then surely you must follow the same line of reasoning when looking at the actions of Capitalist leaders.


No. I'm looking at people who apply an ordinary interpretation of the principles Marx espoused, and noting that it invariably ends in a repressive starvation economy.

WW1 & WW2, was caused by Capitalism.

No they weren't.

The massive amounts of poverty & starvation in the world are also caused by Capitalism.

No it isn't.
09:39pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5400 posts
Okay PP, in that case, then Marxism nor Socialism is the problem in Venezeula :)
Just applying your own limited logic there my lil fella.
10:08pm 23/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2595 posts
You're not applying my logic Vash. At all. But don't worry, one day you'll get there.
10:15pm 23/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5401 posts
No. I'm looking at people who apply an ordinary interpretation of the principles Marx espoused, and noting that it invariably ends in a repressive starvation economy.
cultural revolution, the gulags and the paramilitary enforcers


I'd love to see where Marx espoused the above principles.
Perhaps the only part that rings true would be cultural revolution by ensuring people are more class aware and promoting them to take control of production.
10:41pm 23/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6490 posts
Dunno why you bother pp. Gettin dragged down to a level of dumb and beaten with experience.
10:07am 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2596 posts

Dunno why you bother pp. Gettin dragged down to a level of dumb and beaten with experience.


I know it looks like a mark twain situation, but I like to think of it more as an extended episode of kids say the darndest things but starring a nominally fully functional adult.

I mean look

cultural revolution by ensuring people are more class aware and promoting them to take control of production.


Comedy gold. The cultural revolution was just an awareness campaign. Was it really so different from the big freeze at the MCG? It's the gift that keeps on giving.


I'd love to see where Marx espoused the above principles.


You could try reading him. Just a thought.
10:56am 24/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12816 posts
FFS when is Vash actually going to read about Communism ?

Capitalism is elevating people in the 3rd world right now, i saw a bit recently on K-mart Island in Indonesia, theyve built a modern clothing manufacturing facility and even treat their water so they are environmentally friendly because thats what the customer wants.

Wages are low but thats what makes it worth developing, it possible because the cost of living there is also low. Chinas wages have lifted so Capital is looking for somewhere else to invest.

Capitalism has provided all the cushy things that Chardonnay Vash, the Peoples Poet, uses to romanticize his Struggle against Capitalism to bring about the Workers Paradise that has never worked in the past and never will work and usually ends in the thinning of the Herd.


11:58am 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5402 posts
Again, Marx never espoused gulags, government paramilitary enforcement, nor how the cultural revolution was carried out.

Show me a source, and saying 'just try reading him' isn't very convincing. But just keep on throwing them cute youtoob videos and calling people dumb instead of attacking the argument ole chap.
12:01pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2597 posts
Well here is the thing vash.

The self described adherents show a very consistent pattern of behavior and one that seems consistent with with his principles.

So if those people didn't get it right, it falls to you to say where they went wrong. Seems like if you haven't read the texts, you don't have a chance of doing that.

Whereas, I have read the communist manifesto (and as a side note, I'd be ashamed to have my name associated with such a poorly written spiteful document), it advocates revolution and the abolition of private property, which is so obviously bonkers I'm not going to read a 3000 page tome on why that isn't bonkers, when as a matter of incontestable historical fact it plainly was.

Marx advocates revolution and the abolition of private property. What did you think was going to happen when people *entirely reasonably and with in their rights* say no?

You kill them, and they did in the hundreds of millions.

But just keep on throwing them cute youtoob videos and calling people dumb instead of attacking the argument ole chap.

If you insist

12:11pm 24/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25906 posts
Mentioning the mass murder committed by the Nazis in a discussion about how dangerous Nazism is - truly the strawman of the century.

I wonder how that nazi death count would look if the bloodiest conflict of all time killing upwards of 70 million people didn't occur in an effort to put a stop to it. I wonder if that number wouldn't be significantly higher had the Germans won the war and Nazism be allowed to spread globally?

Trump and Nazi apologist. Some quite nice plumage in your fedora there friend.
12:19pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2598 posts
Don't support trump and not a nazi apologist.

You lose fpot.

Saying when you compare body counts marxism wins isn't apologia. And yes marxism still wins if you include the entire ww2 body count in the nazi column.

Mentioning the mass murder committed by the Nazis in a discussion about how dangerous Nazism is - truly the strawman of the century.


the Nazi's committed the holocaust but this:


focusing an entire nation's industry and science to the task of murdering as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible


Is a ridiculous strawman of their philosophy and you know it.

seeing as we want to play that game. Maybe its because most of Marxism's victims weren't white that you like it so much.
12:34pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5403 posts
Marxist ideology isn't a law to follow to the letter. Same as Capitalist ideology isn't. Each nation has its own set of laws, democratic & economic policies.
If Lee Rhiannon were PM, she is not going to put her political opponents into gulags, she's not going to create a special military force.

Chavez's actions weren't based on Marxism much either. His rampant corruption transferred much of the wealth to friends & family of Government. I wouldn't say there's much Socialism going on there based on that.

By the same token, Turkey has a conservative leader on a similar power grab. But thats because of Islam apparently? Heh.

For me personally, i'd like a flavor of Socialism & Capitalism, especially as technology is replacing Labor. Then eventually if post scarcity is achieved, full communism will be possible (Abolition of the state and money)
01:21pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2599 posts
You are bald faced ignorant of the things you're talking about Vash. Which is why it so enjoyable to watch you type without a hint of irony that the only reason people don't vote for the greens is they hate evidenced based policy.

Chavez was loud committed Marxist who behaved in ways absolutely consistent with revolution and the abolition of private property.

Here is a protip. "Abolition of the state and money" will never happen.
01:25pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5404 posts

https://maoistrebelnews.com/2010/12/30/capitalism-known-true-evil/

Here you go again PP.
Capitalism has killed far more than any flavor of Marxism.

Also, still waiting for that Trump criticism.
01:28pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2600 posts
Trump is a protectionist, and that is wrong, and the principle reason I wouldn't have voted for him.

Quick post to a maoist website on the evil capitalism. You're a retard.

Oh jesus didn't see this

By the same token, Turkey has a conservative leader on a similar power grab. But thats because of Islam apparently?


Yes the islamic conservative has nothing to do with islam. Just like marxists have nothing to do with marx.

That is some rhetorical technique you got goin on there.
01:31pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5405 posts
No, you misunderstood the point.
Erdogan being a Muslim is irrelevant, he's a Capitalist. He's on a power grab much like how people used Socialism or Communism to take control, to the people's demise.

Marxism is about giving power back to people, not to Government or friends of Government. That's why the end goal of Marxism is abolition of the state & money. Socialism is a means to get there.
It will be possible when we achieve unlimited energy and get better at converting energy into matter.
01:53pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2601 posts
No I think I get the point very very clearly.

Erdogan is an Islamist Vash. He is implementing exactly what you would expect an Islamist to. For example he has recently decreed evolution should not be taught in schools. I suppose the fact that is exactly consistent with the Quran is an astronomical coincidence is it?

The point with you is that actions obviously taken for ideological reasons must on no account be attributed to the ideology that is obviously driving them.
02:31pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
809 posts
Thought, I'd just pop in. I've currently got an article on a FB page that is trending and controversial. It's about sport, not really politics, but it is in a way.

3,961People Reached 80Reactions


A (NIMBY Greeny) opponent to what we are advocating for left a nice long message just now. I pm a scientific expert. A fellow advocate (who is a Doctor in the environmental and lead advocate) replied to the opponent with a good reply. I now put two politically correct comments in there to push the opponent down. Then add a fresh update follow-up post that pushes opponent into yesterdays news while providing backstory opinion article (by well known / respected athlete) to bring newer members up to date, and shame a council into reactive mode.

Ohh, all in a day's work... *yawn*

This is a common strategy. Poor old Agnas, or whatever is her name is wrote a wall of text, that's now in the ground. Thanks for dropping by. We are currently arming the big stuff, and rallying the troops.
02:41pm 24/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25907 posts
Saying when you compare body counts marxism wins isn't apologia.
Completely ignoring the fact that nazism was stopped in its tracks by the bloodiest conflict of all time and ignoring what the consequences would have been had that not happened, is. If the nazis had their way everyone who wasn't them would either have been murdered or enslaved.

I am not sure what history books you've been reading but the ones I read mention this thing called the final solution. That was the bit where the nazis used everything at their disposal to set up the industrialised killing of anyone they considered persona non grata. It's not a strawman of their philosophy, it's what defined it.

edit: NMag: don't link to it or anything
04:05pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2602 posts
Completely ignoring the fact that nazism was stopped in its tracks by the bloodiest conflict of all time


sigh. and the award for laziest quote mine goes too. Literally the next sentence was me accounting for it dude.

And yes marxism still wins if you include the entire ww2 body count in the nazi column


I'll bolster that and say it still wins if you include all the deaths from the pacific theater (which cannot be reasonably attributed to nazism).

this thing called the final solution


Oh yes fpot and did the final solution thingy apply to humanity at large or was it targeted in some way. I seem to recall the children of David being caught up in it. Maybe incidentally, its a grey area.

It's not a strawman of their philosophy.
suggesting they wanted to exterminate humanity at large is a straw man of it fpot. Hitler was quite clear about Europe for Europeans and Asia for Asians, hence the alliance with the Japanese Empire. Its racist and its evil, but he didn't want to exterminate just anyone.
04:46pm 24/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39038 posts
Ohh, all in a day's work... *yawn*
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. That it's possible for a moderator or editor to funnel the conversation in particular directions? That you can and do abuse your position of authority to silences voices that disagree with you?
07:03pm 24/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39039 posts
For me personally, i'd like a flavor of Socialism & Capitalism
yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now
07:05pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3287 posts
Ahh... we seem to be massively downplaying the sheer scale of death directly attributable to communism. Also that WW2 era Soviet Russia was a truly horrific regime on par with the Nazis or perhaps even worse in some respects. I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting, but it is rather indirect in comparison.

According to a disturbingly pleasant graphic from Information is Beautiful entitled simply 20th Century Death, communism was the leading ideological cause of death between 1900 and 2000. The 94 million that perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe easily (and tragically) trump the 28 million that died under fascist regimes during the same period. During the century measured, more people died as a result of communism than from homicide (58 million) and genocide (30 million) put together. The combined death tolls of WWI (37 million) and WWII (66 million) exceed communism’s total by only 9 million.
Communism Killed 94M in 20th Century, Feels Need to Kill Again

According to Stéphane Courtois’s The Black Book of Communism, Communism is responsible for 100 million deaths, a number total that far exceeds Nazism, which left 16 million dead—and it eclipses the 20th century death tolls of lung cancer, diabetes, and homicides.

Mao’s estimated death toll ranges from 60 million to 80 million, which surpasses the lives claimed by World War I (37 million) and possibly World War II (66 million).

Courtois tabs Russian dictator Joseph Stalin’s death total at 20 million, though this number fluctuates from 10 to 60 million depending on the source.

In Ukraine, collectivization and soviet industrialization brought about the Holomodor, a famine that caused between 2.5 to 7.5 million deaths.

In Cambodia, Pol Pot—who was previously a member of the French Communist Party... During his reign from 1975-1979, about 1.5-2 million of a total population of 7 million Cambodians were killed

Another two million were murdered by communists in North Korea and Ethiopia.
Communism: The Leading Ideological Cause of Death in the 20th Century

Daniel Goldhagen argues that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type." Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions. Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total.
Mass killings under Communist regimes

Rather subjectively, I've been to a bunch of Eastern Europe and have a fair few friends from there. The lingering effects of communism I saw there were terrible, and none of my friends from there are pro-communist, they're all keen to progress to Western style social democratic capitalism as quickly as possible.

Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.
07:27pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2603 posts
I'll answer more fully later viper.

But my experience is the same. I have a bunch of polish friends and the less said about their opinion of communism the better.

I was actually softer on communism before I lived in Europe. People who actually lived under it left no room for error. It's f***ed. and people who think otherwise are dumb or evil.

*edit* please make a fool of yourself fpot by calling me racist again. Just be aware the principle mode of antisemitism in the world to day is to redirect the holocaust against non-jews. I'm being nice. I won't call you antisemitic. But know you are flirting with it when you say the Nazi's wanted to kill just anyone, */edit*
11:14pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18395 posts
What is the point of comparing various political systems to a death toll? Pretty much every government system ever created has at some point been involved with significant deaths, and probably will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe it's not a problem of government, maybe it's just because humans can be vicious little bastards when they feel scared. Every government, at least in modern history, has dabbled in fear-based campaigns. Unfortunately, it works well.
09:07am 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5406 posts
yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now


Not even close. We're still firmly in the right of center camp, and drifting further that way.
Here's hoping a new power is rising after the French & UK election results.
09:19am 25/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2604 posts
I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting


I don't. I think it will be rather difficult to plausibly attribute too many deaths to the idea trade and industry should be privately owned and run for profit. But even if you want to start attributing deaths to it, I think it becomes incumbent to offer a superior alternative. Because the hard facts are that capitalism easily provides the highest living standard for the most amount of people of any system we've ever tried. So what ever deaths are occurring under modern capitalism its a good bet they wouldn't have been saved by adopting a different system. And its a better bet the situation would have been much much worse under Marxism.

It doesn't save everyone, but that's not a claim it makes for itself. Unlike some other systems.


Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations
and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.


Well it all depends what you mean by neoliberal really. The free movement of labour and capital is pretty central to neoliberalism. So I don't really think you can have something like the EU without being neoliberal in some sense.

But more over my understanding of neoliberalism is not that reducing govt regulation etc is an end in itself. the idea is that a higher standard of living will be achieved to the extent the state does not get involved. And to be honest, I think that idea generally has legs. People operating in their own self interest will tend to do a better job of something then a bureaucracy.

It doesn't hold true for everything, but it does for a lot of things, and probably more things than not.

Medicine would be an example where self interested parties don't seem to do a great job. But it is true to say also that there is no lack of government intervention (even in the US), and I know doctors that do complain about how government health is run. My dad is a pharmacist and he complains all the time that the Australian PBS is incredibly wasteful, while acknowledging that something like it is necessary.

I also think it is important to say that while it is *clearly* an outrage someone should be excluded from adequate medical care for lack of money in a 1st world country, it is also true that there is a lot about health care that is not strictly speaking necessary in order for it to be delivered but that people would not generally be willing to do with out.

For example the personal relationship with your doctor is not medically necessary, but if you were forced to leave a GP you liked for no good reason you'd probably be pretty pissed off. And rightly so.

and it is areas of health care delivery like this, that centrally government run health care has a well earned reputation for stinking out loud.
04:15pm 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5407 posts
Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is abit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.
10:09am 26/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2605 posts
Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is a bit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.


Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.


So numberless deaths. yeah ok. powerful s*** as always vash.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism


Have you? let me give you the quick cap review vash. A famous person saying it wasn't true marxism, is someone saying it wasn't true marxism.
08:30pm 26/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5408 posts
Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.


Except you're forgetting the countless regions invaded by a coalition of said societies, and the democracies toppled by the CIA, and puppet dictators put in. It's all there to read, no conspiracy theories here. They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed alittle too Socialist.
So if you don't follow this coalition's way of doing things, you're an outsider & economically sanctioned, and perhaps invaded or toppled. This might be why certain states attempting Socialism had become so Authoritarian. To keep the USA from intervention in it. (Castro assassination attempts anyone?)

Might just be why North Korea is so Authoritarian & Militaristic as well. The USA aren't a nation of freedom & peace, and it will keep invading nations to sustain it's economy.
11:23am 27/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
810 posts

Have you checked out Pyongyang, and rest of NK on google maps?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@39.0279722,125.7692865,9948m/data=!3m1!1e3

"The Central Bureau of Statistics of North Korea conducted the most recent census in 2008, where the population reached 24 million inhabitants.[1] The population density is 199.54 inhabitants per square kilometre"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_North_Korea


10:14pm 27/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25910 posts
Got a link to that Facebook thing you were talking about? Or was that just more posturing bulls***?
10:25pm 27/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39047 posts
FAR more interesting good news: Non-believers by far Australia’s largest single ‘religious’ group:
After today’s release of Census data showing that non-believers make up 30.1% of the population – easily overtaking the previously-highest response “Catholic” for the first time in Census history – the Atheist Foundation of Australia says it is time to stop pandering to religious minorities and take religion out of politics.
12:05am 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5410 posts

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/rate-of-global-sea-level-rise-jumps-50-per-cent-in-two-decades-20170626-gwyu52.html

Meanwhile it's entirely hysteria over the Trump administration. No basis for that hysteria at all. 'Everything is fine'
11:53am 28/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12817 posts
It was launched in an effort to understand why an accelerated rate of sea-level rise, between 1993 and 2014, had not been accurately represented in data from altimeters [satellite instruments used to measure height or altitude], despite accelerating contributions from ice sheets.


Perhaps there is another reason why ?
What do you think PornoPete ?
01:06pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5411 posts


Perhaps there is another reason why ?
What do you think PornoPete ?


See this is the problem. You're looking to people who study law (which seems to be alot of politicians as well) instead of actual scientists & other experts.
It sounds like you believe what you want to believe.
02:44pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3289 posts
Merlins Beard! Merely half a scroll down from this:

This might be why certain states attempting Socialism had become so Authoritarian. To keep the USA from intervention in it. (Castro assassination attempts anyone?) Might just be why North Korea is so Authoritarian & Militaristic as well. The USA aren't a nation of freedom & peace, and it will keep invading nations to sustain it's economy.


It sounds like you believe what you want to believe Vash old bean! ;)

That religious census data is great to see, maybe we're turning the tide on the old man in the sky.
05:08pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5412 posts
It sounds like you believe what you want to believe Vash old bean! ;)


Naturally. I don't refute scientific consensus though. Many seem to of a certain political persuasion.
05:40pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2606 posts
Yes you do vash. Yes you do. nearly continually.

RE Census, it would be interesting to see if they calculate the effect putting it first had.
06:51pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5413 posts
Yes you do vash. Yes you do. nearly continually.


Yeah? Tell me three times i have.
07:33pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2607 posts
Everytime you say it wasn't true marxism.

This steaming pile of conspiracy theory.
Except you're forgetting the countless regions invaded by a coalition of said societies, and the democracies toppled by the CIA, and puppet dictators put in. It's all there to read, no conspiracy theories here. They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed alittle too Socialist.


When you post to a f*****g maoist (as in we should follow the teachings of mao zedong) website to tally deaths of capitalism.

But you do have the marxist approved attitude to climate change. Well done.
08:16pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25911 posts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

Not really what I'd call a conspiracy theory. In any case I don't really see how the things you listed can be classed as ignoring scientific consensus.
08:32pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5414 posts
There's no scientific consensus on Marxism, PP. I think there's been more criticism of Capitalism by prominent scientists than Marxism, actually. Einstein & Stephen Hawking, for example.

I have never said it's 'Not true Marxism' but rather 'Not true Socialism' which is a fact if you care to look deeper into how Government works in 'Socialist' countries. But no, since the Nazis have Socialist in their party name they are surely Socalists, and the same for North Korea & co. Also, the Chinese Communist Party are surely Communist.
Marxism isn't a system of it's own, it's a method of achieving Full Communism.

And if you don't know about the CIA disposing of leaders i believe you have your hand firmly in the sand once again.


as in we should follow the teachings of mao zedong


Noone said that, nor did the website's article. Do you care to address the death tolls or you're just doing your silly diversion tactics?

I'm beginning to doubt you have read anything of Marx at all, since you're incredibly ignorant of the subject.
08:44pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
153 posts
Anyone that doesn't accept the reality of climate change and our effects on the planet should be classed in the same category as anti-vaxxers,anti-fluoridation nutters and the flat earth society.
08:48pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2608 posts
Not really what I'd call a conspiracy theory.


Yeah, now all you need to do is establish that capitalism requires US support of the contras.

If you can't do that you could try calling me racist again fpot.

Noone said that, nor did the website's article.


yeah the website has mao in the URL and here is a quote from the ideology page numb nuts

Maoism-Third Worldism is an unofficial name for what is theorized as the fourth stage in the evolution of Marxist theory. There is no official title, but Maoism-Third Worldism is the most common one. The difficulty arises out of the vague beginnings of the ideology. As Mao Zedong fell to revisionism, just as Stalin had, Lin Biao gave a few ideas as to how the next stage could be formulated. He unfortunately died before any real concrete theory could be put forward. The most important work, representing a kind of foundation is “Long Live the Victory of People’s War”. In it he outlined a general stance of the First versus the Third World. Since then a group called the Maoist International Movement and several independent authors have contributed ideas.


Yeah its a maoist website jackass.
08:55pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25912 posts
Yeah, now all you need to do is establish that capitalism requires US support of the contras.
I could have sworn those goal posts were just over there a second ago!

When did I call you racist? I simply pointed out the fact that the first world is guilty of some pretty dastardly exploitation of the third world which tends to be ignored by everyone (including myself) in a rather f***ed up way.

You gonna mention some of the scientific consensus Vash ignores soon or you just gonna keep crying about things that didn't happen?
09:08pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5415 posts
Yeah its a maoist website jackass.


And how's that relevant to the death toll of Capitalism?
09:25pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2609 posts
I could have sworn those goal posts were just over there a second ago!


There is, earlier in this thread, a link to a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies do not go to war with each other. And this fact of closer economic ties underpins the EU.

That would of course require reading.

Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong. You've now responded with a link to the contra's. It's not my fault you couldn't divine the actual goal posts and made up your own buddy.

You've called me a nazi apologist fpot, so there was that thing about the nazi's being quite racist.

I simply pointed out the fact that the first world is guilty of some pretty dastardly exploitation of the third world which tends to be ignored by everyone (including myself) in a rather f***ed up way.


The third world is almost uniformly improved by adopting capitalism fpot. I have no idea what you suppose the relevance of that is to this discussion.

I don't particularly feel like teasing more out of him, but I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that his attitude toward nuclear power has absolutely no basis in fact, and there is a strong chance his attitude toward GMO's is the same.

And how's that relevant to the death toll of Capitalism?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA you need to stop talking about propaganda with a straight face vash.
09:30pm 28/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39048 posts
There's no scientific consensus on Marxism, PP. I think there's been more criticism of Capitalism by prominent scientists than Marxism, actually. Einstein & Stephen Hawking, for example.
windmills do not work that way
09:34pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5416 posts
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA you need to stop talking about propaganda with a straight face vash.


Oh ok, so you dispute those deaths ever happened? And they cannot be caused by Capitalism?
And why is that PP?
Why are deaths under 'Socialism' caused by Socialism, but deaths under Capitalism are not caused by Capitalism?
09:41pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25913 posts

Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong. You've now responded with a link to the contra's. It's not my fault you couldn't divine the actual goal posts and made up your own buddy.
He did, but that wasn't the part you quoted. You quoted the part about the US interfering with democratically elected governments and called it a conspiracy theory. It quite clearly isn't which I pointed out with the link about the contras. I guess if shifting the goal posts doesn't work the first time, just shift them again!

And I'm more than willing to admit that calling you a Nazi apologist was a total d*** move if you could start mentioning some of this continuously ignored scientific consensus. Did you mean he just engages in thinking that may be considered unscientific at times?
09:54pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5417 posts
Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong.


Yeah Wikipedia isn't exactly a scientific consensus, and this also depends on your political perspective. But i'll roll with it. So why did the U.S invade Iraq? and continues to bash on the war drums for whom ever is the latest perceived enemy. Is North Korea next up for their dose of 'freedom'?
Look beyond the media rhetoric. North Korea isn't invading anyone, it's the U.S doing so.
10:14pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18396 posts
When hasn't America been at war with some country or part there-of?

Seriously. It's pretty much at war almost all the time. I'm not sure how you can say America doesn't require war, when in almost every year since America was created .. it has been at war.
S*** America even goes to war with itself when nobody else seems worthwhile.

America might not need to be at war, but we don't really know for sure do we. I mean they had a period there around 1935-1940 were they managed to not throw rocks at someone .. and well their economy also didn't go well during that time. 1941 comes around, Oh hey a war, lets go stick our toes in!

01:33am 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25914 posts
Well they were pretty staunch about their neutrality until that day which will live in infamy. There's no doubt WW2 had a lot to do with the USA becoming immensely powerful though and it seems they've been chasing that dragon ever since.
02:39am 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2610 posts
When hasn't America been at war with some country or part there-of?


Equally toll when doesn't America get in trouble for not intervening. loads of people have been saying there needs to be intervention in Syria.

I guess if shifting the goal posts doesn't work the first time, just shift them again!

Oh what complete bulls*** fpot. The conspiracy theory I was plainly drawing attention to is the claim that capitalism requires war. There is a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, therefore demonstrating quite clearly capitalism does not require war. The quote is a straight forward response and entails the claim capitalism requires war. The goal post haven't been moved at all fpot. The claim is capitalism requires war, and when pointing out that is obviously and demonstrably false and you can find hundreds of social scientists willing to sign up, the response was because the US has interfered in countries internal affairs it shows capitalism requires war.

and there is a field of study dedicated to the fact that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other.

In case you missed the 5000 posts, Vash rather plainly does not accept that empirical fact.

and lets not forget I also quoted this bit
They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed a little too Socialist.


Anyway if your happy defending someone who literally quotes maoist propaganda as someone who has a deep respect for science, keep on pluggin.
07:21am 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5418 posts
Heh.

There is a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, therefore demonstrating quite clearly capitalism does not require war


Noone is disputing those social scientists, PP. It does not refute the claim that Capitalism requires war. If that weren't the case, the USA wouldn't be further increasing their already immense military budget, and talking of the next nation to invade before their even finished up with a war they're already in.

Eisenhower warned how much power military industry would have over Government. How far the Republican party have fallen.

the response was because the US has interfered in countries internal affairs it shows capitalism requires war. and there is a field of study dedicated to the fact that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other.


'interfered in countries internal affairs' that's some nice politician language you got there.

Anyway if your happy defending someone who literally quotes maoist propaganda as someone who has a deep respect for science, keep on pluggin.


I didn't defend the maoist. So those death numbers are just propaganda eh?
09:15am 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2611 posts
didn't defend the maoist. So those death numbers are just propaganda eh?


You don't defend the maoist but you insist his numbers are accurate. coherence where for art thou.

but on the nub of your question, do I dispute "US Imperialism" has caused 350 million deaths in a sense comparable to socialism's 150 million. Yes. If for no other reason that figure represents more than triple the entire body count for both sides of both world wars. I'd say it comfortably outstrips all deaths of every war the US has ever been in. Combine that with the fact the guy claiming it loves arguably the greatest mass killer in history, Yeah its propaganda you imbecile.

Noone is disputing those social scientists, PP. It does not refute the claim that Capitalism requires war. If that weren't the case, the USA wouldn't be further increasing their already immense military budget, and talking of the next nation to invade before their even finished up with a war they're already in.


I rest my case fpot.

Riddle me this then vash. If capitalism requires war, why is capitalism becoming more ingrained in the global economy and wars reducing. If capitalism requires war, why do capitalist nations seek each other out and make agreements that basically rule war out. why would they, contrary to their self interest (as you cast it), reduce the range of people they could go to war with?
In short, why is it that as capitalism spreads the number of wars goes down? If it requires war this is a counter intuitive result to say the least.

Given the empirical claim of those social scientists that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, and the fact that war is becoming rarer and less lethal (stephen pinkers "the better angels of our nature" is an excellent resource on this claim) those social scientists credibly claim that the way to reduce war is for everyone to be democratic capitalists. you cannot possibly claim you agree with that.

So until you can construct a plausible empirical account of why they are wrong, you are in unambiguous climate change denier zone.
06:28pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25915 posts
Yeah well good you two talk that one out. Still reckon you were calling the CIA incursions a conspiracy theory and then changed your tune though but hey who cares.

In other circling the drain news, check out this video that even Goebbels would be proud of -

06:40pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25916 posts
Forget Cardinal Pell. Steve Smith scandal incoming!

https://image.ibb.co/kmF4hk/steve_smith_ummmm.png
07:15pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
811 posts
USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel. Politicians gain credit for going to war. Having an agreed enemy brings people together. Lot's of benefits of going to war. Maybe it would be more justified if the wars were fought on their own borders instead all over the world. It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.
07:28pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2612 posts
least you managed to avoid nazis this time fpot. Progress of a kind.
07:39pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25917 posts
Nah I mentioned Goebbels.
07:40pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2613 posts
You didn't call me him, still progress ;)
07:53pm 29/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12819 posts
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH dey callt me a nutzi

Walmart (WMT) is telling trucking companies that it will no longer do business with them if they continue moving goods for Amazon (AMZN).

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-28/it-begins-walmart-warns-truckers-it-will-no-longer-work-them-if-they-move-goods-amaz

This is how Capitalism does War.

08:07pm 29/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39049 posts
USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel.
and now they "protect" Saudi Arabia! what are the chances of that coming back to bite them in the ass, practically zero I bet
It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.
I actually disagree that it's in their culture. I spent two years in the US and have family that have lived there for 30+ years. Almost noone I know (all pinko liberals of course) remotely supports the US war efforts). Even in Ohio I only knew maybe one person I can think of that was "pro war" and it was because he was in the Army reserves and really wanted to go fight.

The problem is that it's in their ECONOMY. Despite not knowing many pro war people I know several that were in the military industrial complex - one of the PhDs I met at OSU graduated & then took a job working at Pratt & Whitney (almost certainly on military jet engines). Another mate was a buyer for Lockheed. Ohio had a big air force base with a huge research group) that was a big employer from the university (my girlfriend got to tour it, it sounded f*****g awesome, lots of cool future tech research projects going on). Each state has their own porkbarrel projects for military spending (OH IIRC was a big source of federal money for military jet engines).

So selling arms to total ideological enemies like Saudi Arabia - who in EVERY RESPECT literally everything about America would be opposed to, except they have metric f****hittonnes of money and are willing to spend it buying s*** to presumably go blow up their less wealthy but equally crappy neighbours - is important because it means their totally out-of-proportion-with-their-needs military spending can be justified to the very many citizens that depend on it for a job and their friends and family etc.
08:10pm 29/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7663 posts
Meanwhile in f***tard high house price straya

08:14pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5419 posts

USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel. Politicians gain credit for going to war. Having an agreed enemy brings people together. Lot's of benefits of going to war. Maybe it would be more justified if the wars were fought on their own borders instead all over the world. It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.


Indeed. The U.S is all about Profit, Guns,War and more guns. Capitalism fuels war, and it loves it, and therefor, the people love it.

PP seems to love answering questions with more questions, so i think i'm wasting my time here.

On an end note, here's some documents that can't be interpreted as 'propaganda' and how the U.S conducts its foreign policy. It seems it loves to wage war on nations that don't fit neatly into it's own ideology. It even topples democratically elected leaders. How undemocratic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB437/docs/Doc%204%20-%20Kissinger%20to%20Nixon%20re%20Nov%206%20NSC%20meeting.pdf

Nixon's quote

http://i.imgur.com/B7lWcgE.jpghttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

CIA on Whitlam.

Could provide links all night on U.S Imperialism.
08:19pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2614 posts
I note how none of those things require capitalism to go to war, and are US related only and don't come anywhere near 350 million deaths.

you're a f*****g moron vash. A poster boy for why there should be propaganda, because it clearly works.

Most hysterically of all you think you've pwned me don't you.

The CIA got goff.

There you go fpot. put some flesh on the bones of that one.
08:29pm 29/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39050 posts

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH dey callt me a nutzi


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-28/it-begins-walmart-warns-truckers-it-will-no-longer-work-them-if-they-move-goods-amaz

This is how Capitalism does War.

well, that's how free market capitalism does war.

That sounds like it has massive potential to trip anti-competitive laws, surely. I mean, in a properly regulated market.
08:35pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5420 posts
Warfare comes in many forms, PP. You should know this.
The U.S doesn't just invade countries.

Also it's typical of you to attack the messenger rather than the message. The article on the maoist website is quite sound & logical regardless of the poster's beliefs.

The numbers also don't include the immense amount of deaths that occur when people die from unemployment or homelessness, or being unable to afford surgery or cancer treatments. Especially in the USA with lacking social welfare programs.

Marxists at least, would like to prevent the population from ever reaching that state. Such evil.

The CIA got goff.


And many others. But keep on trying champ.
08:48pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18397 posts

Equally toll when doesn't America get in trouble for not intervening. loads of people have been saying there needs to be intervention in Syria.


Doesn't change the fact that America has been at war with someone for most of it's existence as a nation. It's essentially country of war, sure they do lots of other stuff, but war is their most consistent year after year activity.
09:02pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2615 posts
oh so the CIA really did get goff.

Carry on.

Also it's typical of you to attack the messenger rather than the message


Naw that is adorable, why can't you just listen to the person who has a vested interest in making the US look as evil as possible when he is making the US as evil as possible.

The numbers also don't include the immense amount of deaths that occur when people die from unemployment or homelessness, or being unable to afford surgery or cancer treatments. Especially in the USA with lacking social welfare programs.


Yes alleviating death from poverty is something marxism can make a real claim to. In other, totally unrelated, news Venezuelans lost an average of 19lbs. The government said they are really cracking down on childhood obesity.
09:04pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2616 posts
Doesn't change the fact that America has been at war with someone for most of it's existence as a nation. It's essentially country of war, sure they do lots of other stuff, but war is their most consistent year after year activity.


I was going to respond to this, but I think now you need to take five minutes and think about what you've said.

Take this with you when you think. we live now in Pax Americana

the times we live in are, as an empirical fact, the most prosperous, most safe, least war like, most egalitarian times that have ever existed for human kind.

When you have some cogent rebuttal to that last sentence we can talk more Toll.
09:13pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5421 posts
Yes alleviating death from poverty is something marxism can make a real claim to


Indeed it can. Considering a poor country like Cuba, with all those economic sanctions, still provides universal health care & has little to no homelessness.
The richest country in the world, on the other hand...

Not to mention the countless lives saved by Marxist based policy that swept the world with the union movement & vast social policies, built into Capitalism.
09:22pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2617 posts
yep poverty is totally not a thing in Cuba. You're like a goldfish.

There is no talking point you have that hasn't been comprehensively destroyed vash.

but enough of Cuba having literally no poverty which is why they have cars from the 1950's.

Tell us more about the CIA and Goff. What really happened in '75.

Also tell us more about how voting for Trump is the result of "P R O P A G A N D A"
10:03pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5422 posts
Yes alleviating death from poverty


Since you seem to forget what you type, you said, death from poverty.
Not poverty itself.
Cubans aren't dying from poverty, they are fed and housed.
10:21pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2087 posts
Who here wants to see tone back at the helm before the next election? I know I do.
02:02pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40643 posts
tone plz
02:37pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
812 posts

I can't read all this Cuban stuff, but does Vash arguing that Cuba is a nice place to live?

Maybe it is, I'll check out the property prices.

This looks ok for 75k http://cuba.realigro.com/for-sale/house/la-havana-1/26742.html

http://media.realigro.com/annunci/img/106046.JPG

Couldn't find anything between 1 and 2 million. Must be sold out.


05:58pm 30/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7664 posts
If Tony Abbott comes back then this country is officially f***ed.

If Abbott was fair dinkum he would get behind a new candidate to roll Malcolm (which wouldn't be hard at the moment) and not run for PM again.
06:44pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5423 posts
Vash arguing that Cuba is a nice place to live?


In relative terms, yes.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with property prices there, Nmag. Property prices are generally low in poor countries.
06:48pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
813 posts

I'm not partial to holidays or living in 3rd world ghettos. I feel enriched already.

But it's just interesting to see what you can buy for what in various places. For example, Maine and Colorado look 'nice' to me.

Bourke NSW is not my cup of tea, but it's an option:

I wouldn't buy heritage listed but wow, looks great:

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-bourke-123276130

600k

https://i1.au.reastatic.net/456x342/37f9c03f71c60a2c609977b70034bbfce4b202e63b989071336a42461b6cf8fc/main.jpg

or

80k

https://i1.au.reastatic.net/456x342/9954e73ac8a1c1d29e22ecfaccfa199971714b40b8b27b8910bc4117fa036c0c/main.jpg

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-bourke-125671022

An actual house with land for 80k. Imagine Friday night in that street... wooo there be some parties going down there.

Isn't it interesting at all, the variances, the options.


08:42pm 30/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39052 posts


Since you seem to forget what you type, you said, death from poverty.
Not poverty itself.
Cubans aren't dying from poverty, they are fed and housed.
Everything I know about Cuba I know from the Big Picture

'fed and housed' for some definition of fed and housed
09:01pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5424 posts
The exact definition of fed & housed. No luxuries.
Free market economies would leave many of these people dead of poverty, as is the case in Africa.
10:19pm 30/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2618 posts
No no Vash

You're wrong about Cuba, you know as per usual. Cuba has had perennial issues with food security, here is a 2005 study showing 41% people in hospital were undernourished and 11% were severely undernourished. they're so well fed they have to be hospitalized.

The reality is if Cubans want to be 'housed and fed' they move to Miami.

Their agricultural sector was destroyed by the Castro regime, they have survived as long as they have by hand outs from Russia, which also suffered devastating famines as a result of idiot marxist ideas about agriculture.

But enough you being wrong, again.

Tell us more about how the CIA brought down Gough Whitlam.
01:33pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5425 posts
Interesting how Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the USA.
Why is that PP?

Such a poor devastated nation would surely have the streets littered with homeless & people dying of poverty, with a poor outcome on life expectancy.

But no. Also, you're forgetting the economic sanctions placed on the country, surely that impacts the ability of the Government to provide enough quality food for it's poorest. Perhaps why there's alot of malnutrition.

Marxism is so evil it's priority is ensuring the poorest are looked after.


Tell us more about how the CIA brought down Gough Whitlam.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Whitlam+CIA
01:48pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2619 posts
I'm not certain what you think that means Vash. North Korea's life expectancy is in the ball park. Guess that must mean food shortages aren't a thing in North Korea as well.

People can live for a long time at a subsistence level vash. Doesn't mean they don't have a large array of non-fatal health complications.

Also, you're forgetting the economic sanctions placed on the country


Who knew trying to import nukes from Russia would be one the USA's buttons right?

I can google a bunch of idiot conspiracy websites I'd like you to explain it. How did the CIA bring down Whitlam? Whats the true story. I thought it was as a result of being unable to secure supply through the senate and refusing to call an election. But apparently the CIA engineered that loophole in our constitution hey?
02:40pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5426 posts

North Korea's life expectancy is in the ball park.


Actually, No, it isn't in the ball park. Your argument that Marxism hasn't done anything to alleviate death from poverty is simply wrong, PP.
People aren't dying of poverty in Cuba. Their life expectancy is on par with the richest country in the world, and they have an almost 100% literacy rate.

On the Whitlam thing here's another article for you to ignore

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-16/gough-whitlam-ordered-asio-to-stop-talking-to-cia/6859734
02:59pm 01/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12821 posts
Whitlam was a Fiscal Conservative, like Rudd.

Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator Scott Pruitt is proceeding with a plan to conduct a debate among scientists within the agency to refine the government’s understanding of the climate change phenomenon.

“The administrator believes that we will be able to recruit the best in the fields which study climate and will organize a specific process in which these individuals … provide back-and-forth critique of specific new reports on climate science,” the source said.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/epas-scott-pruitt-hold-climate-change-debate-first-announced-breitbart-news-daily/

Thats not going to end well for one side.
03:21pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2620 posts
Marxism hasn't done anything to alleviate death from poverty vash. People still do starve to death in Marxist countries, and Cuba is reliant on food handouts, Ironically enough from the USA. They cannot grow their own food.

and they have an almost 100% literacy rate.


Ok great, what does that get them exactly? They aren't able to do anything with because most books are banned. Anything that isn't glory to the revolution is put on s*** list and you can get yourself killed reading it. The soviet union had a high literacy rate as well, and also reading the wrong books would get you killed as well. It's like it a pattern or something.

You're just wrong Vash. Marxism has exacerbated poverty where ever it has gone, and to the extent it provides food for everyone it is invariably not enough.

OMG the CIA had a well founded fear that ASIO was penetrated by the Soviets. Notice now absolutely nothing in that article gets you to "the CIA took down Gough Whitlam"

The amount you need to read article you link to.
03:26pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5427 posts
Oh we've just gone full circle. Heh. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also, The USA imports most of its food, too. Not like that isn't a common thing. As far as i know Cuba required most food aid during storms.

Notice now absolutely nothing in that article gets you to "the CIA took down Gough Whitlam"


There's that ignorance again.

Whitlam accused the CIA of having made financial contributions to his political opponents, and it was no secret that the US had serious concerns about the Whitlam administration. On November 9, 1975, a CIA operative in Washington named Ted Shackley, through an ASIO liaison officer, outlined American concerns about Whitlam and his government, which it cabled to ASIO and passed on to Whitlam. "Of course, Whitlam doesn't see this as a big concern at all," Dr Blaxland said. "He reads the cable and says, well, write back and explain that their concerns are misplaced." Two days later, the Governor General, Sir John Kerr, sacked Whitlam.


Could be he was sacked due to his antagonism with the CIA. Noone can say for sure (Except the CIA i guess) but it sure has basis.
03:42pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2621 posts
The USA imports most of its food, too

No it absolutely doesn't. Cuba, lives on the handouts of other countries Vash. The most food aid cuba required was during the 90's after the collapse of the soviet union. They have been having consistent food shortages for the last 50 years. You have to have been living under a rock not to know that.


Could be he was sacked due to his antagonism with the CIA

Yes literally the only thing going on was a memo from the CIA. There are no other reasons which completely explain what happened in '75.

You're in flat out conspiracy theory territory now vash.

Gough Whitlam was sacked to break a constitutional crisis. The CIA had nothing to do with it.
04:14pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13705 posts
Thats not going to end well for one side.


Either way, the scientific consensus will prevail. The consensus isn't honed or arrived at by non-scientists deciding on the outcome of a debate. It's arrived at by the overwhelming preponderance of the reputable scientific literature.
05:59pm 01/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12822 posts
Cuba much like North Korea has had to endure crippling sanctions.
How would Australia be doing if we faced similar sanctions ?

Australia has done very well indeed out of its support for America.
*cough* Pine Gap *cough*
08:45pm 01/07/17 Permalink
taggs
6492 posts
Considering a poor country like Cuba, with all those economic sanctions, still provides universal health care & has little to no homelessness.


Certainly not my experience when I was in Cuba about ten years ago there was plenty of homeless people in Havana. Less in the smaller cities but no more or less than anywhere else of comparable density.
09:46pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10628 posts
Jim science doesn't matter, ask Trump ... Or Turnbull/Abott

Those pesky science people are all left wing liars!!! You know how they lie by measuring stuff ... lies!

Meanwhile ice melt! Fake news.
12:30am 02/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21289 posts
Pretty sure the US produces most of it's food
08:07am 02/07/17 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5331 posts
The entire midwest of the USA is farm and grazing land Vash... dear god.. plus there is a reason part of LA is called Orange County.. most of the US consumption of fruit and veg is grown along the west coast..
09:47am 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2622 posts
Certainly not my experience when I was in Cuba about ten years ago there was plenty of homeless people in Havana.


CIA plants to undermine the appearance of the workers paradise.

Orange County


I thought it was a spray tan reference.
12:00pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5428 posts

The entire midwest of the USA is farm and grazing land Vash... dear god.. plus there is a reason part of LA is called Orange County.. most of the US consumption of fruit and veg is grown along the west coast..
http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-countries-importing-the-most-food-in-the-world.html

Yet imports the most food in the world.

I'm not saying Cuba is a Marxist paradise. I'm pointing out that it has done very well for how poor it is, relative to poor countries with free market economies.

And considering most social policies were created based off Marxism, it has definitely done more to alleviate poverty than Capitalism, if you look at much of Europe, and Australia.

Capitalism may provide immense wealth for some, but Marxism has allowed that wealth to increase the standards of living of larger amounts of the population rather than a concentrated few. Still needs to be way more done in this area though, especially in the states.
12:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2623 posts
Should it really need to be explained why being the largest importer of food is not the same thing as importing most of your food?

I'm pointing out that it has done very well for how poor it is, relative to poor countries with free market economies.


It simply hasn't though Vash. The standard of living is equally low for everyone there and hasn't progressed since the 1950's. In Africa where you have adequate rule of law to allow markets to form you invariably see the living standard rise. The biggest s***holes in Africa are the result of tinpot Marxist revolutionaries. Libya and Zimbabwe spring to mind.

Australia's wealth is predicated on a competitive capital market helping to create a diversified *private* economy, which is literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.

As for Europe, you need to account for the giant neo-liberal elephant in the room that is the European Union, and the European Central Bank. Again the opposite of Marxist thinking.
03:00pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5430 posts
It simply hasn't though Vash. The standard of living is equally low for everyone there and hasn't progressed since the 1950's.


Debatable. Their GDP growth has been constant except for a dip in the 90s.

Australia's wealth is predicated on a competitive capital market helping to create a diversified *private* economy, which is literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.


Yet it contains an immense amount of policy based on Marxist thinking too. A part of the reason why we have one of the highest standards of living, despite having a considerably weaker economy than the USA.
Our life expectancy is higher (due to universal healthcare) we have more opportunity to holiday, and have more rights in the workplace.

Opposite of Capitalist thinking, wouldn't you say?

Without Marxism, we'd have no weekends, no holidays, lower pay. No rights at work, less worker safety. Capitalism has only been shaped to success due to Marxism, and it will only continue to work if more Marxist policy is implemented, especially as technology replaces Labor.

Also, you'll see the class warfare thing is still alive & well today when you attempt to increase taxes on the rich. The wealthy will say thats class warfare.
Lower pay to the poor and they'll tell you it's good business.
03:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2624 posts
Debatable. Their GDP growth has been constant except for a dip in the 90s.


It really isn't.

Yet it contains an immense amount of policy based on Marxist thinking too. A part of the reason why we have one of the highest standards of living, despite having a considerably weaker economy than the USA.
Our life expectancy is higher (due to universal healthcare) we have more opportunity to holiday, and have more rights in the workplace.


No it isn't. For crying out loud Vash. Before the 1980's float of the dollar and deregulation of the banks, Australia was tied to the fortunes of wool and wheat commodity markets and inflation was up around 17% or something insane (which I might add hurts low income folks the most). Unions kept pushing for wage increases and it became an inflation feedback loop.

That was all broken by Paul Keating/Bob Hawke specifically by introducing an accord to stop the unions pushing for pay increases in exchange for tax cuts. And Keating in particular had to fight the Marxist unionists in the labor movement tooth and nail to do it. Just read his biography.

Universal health care is worthless if you can only pay for Panadol for everyone, the idea is predicated on an economy that can be taxed enough to pay for it. And in Australia that idea (an economy big enough to skim off) is predicated on private capital creating a diversified economy. It cuts against the core hypothesis of Marxism that capital is inherently oppressive. A proper universal health care system was opened up by giving more people access to capital not less.

Anyway, this is becoming a bit mark twain. Go recite the articles of faith dude. Short of God himself coming down and telling you Marxism is f***ed(and even then) you're going to continue wandering around in self inflicted ignorance.
04:19pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5431 posts
It really isn't.


Yeah nah. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gdp+per+capita+cuba

Oh so you mention unions now. Cool, we're making progress. Unions wouldn't exist without Socialists increasing class awareness.
And you certainly can't discount the immense benefit they've provided for us.

Universal health care has done *very* well in Cuba, considering how poor the country is, and it's lack of capital movement. they've been able to afford it. Looking at that life expectancy figure again...

you're going to continue wandering around in self inflicted ignorance.


Same could be said for you, noting the lack of criticisms of Trump, and any mention of the shortcomings of Capitalism. Surely you're capable of some critical analysis and not just political tribalism?

edit, also, relevant:

http://i.imgur.com/iisS2um.png
04:27pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2625 posts
Yeah nah.

their GDP per capita has increased at all therefore WINNING. You're delusional Vash.

Cool, we're making progress. Unions wouldn't exist without Socialists increasing class awareness.


Yes mentioned them to say that Keating had to fight them tooth and nail to actually achieve a positive outcome for workers. Honestly how are you possible?

Universal health care has done *very* well in Cuba, considering how poor the country is, and it's lack of capital movement. they've been able to afford it. Looking at that life expectancy figure again...


Universal health care in Cuba is ordinary at best vash. Really is amazing you don't make the link when the next part of the sentence is
considering how poor the country is

I wonder if Marxism plays a role there. Awesome how we aren't talking about Australia's health care arrangments


Same could be said for you, noting the lack of criticisms of Trump, and any mention of the shortcomings of Capitalism. Surely you're capable of some critical analysis and not just political tribalism?


There's that unintentional self-defeating humour again.
05:05pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5432 posts
their GDP per capita has increased at all therefore WINNING. You're delusional Vash.


Which is er, directly tied to increased standards of living you dolt.

Awesome how we aren't talking about Australia's health care arrangments


I thank Marxism for both Cuba's health outcomes and Australia's health outcomes.
Your point that it requires Capitalism to accumulate enough wealth to run a universal health system is wrong, PP. As i just pointed out, Cuba has managed to do it and matches life expectancy of the USA, which any well adjusted person would say is a good thing.

Yes mentioned them to say that Keating had to fight them tooth and nail to actually achieve a positive outcome for workers.


Ignoring them benefits again, lets cherry pick this onesie.

I wonder if Marxism plays a role there.


Nah. Otherwise we would have to blame Capitalism for any country that is poor under it, that wouldn't be smart would it?
05:14pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2626 posts
Which is er, directly tied to increased standards of living you dolt.


Yes Marxism would totally agree that increasing personal wealth is how to increase standards of living.

Your point that it requires Capitalism to accumulate enough wealth to run a universal health system is wrong, PP.


No it isn't. If you want to compare health outcomes between Australia and Cuba go right ahead. I know which system I'd prefer to use.

Australia's health care system actively punishes people who can afford private health care but don't pay for it. So Marxist. It's almost likes its predicated on living within means or something.

lets cherry pick this onesie.


Yes this one time happens to be the time we created open capital markets in Australia. I mean if you're just going to focus on the most all encompassing change in Australia's economic history since ww2, who can have a serious debate?

Otherwise we would have to blame Capitalism for any country that is poor under it, that wouldn't be smart would it?


o_0 if you say so Vash. We can sit down and do a country by country analysis of who has the best living standards and see how capitalism fairs if you'd like.

Don't think you're going to like the outcome.
05:21pm 02/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12824 posts
Universal Healthcare is only as good as the Economy that can afford it.
Stands to reason Cubas is not going to be too good.


05:32pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5433 posts
Yes Marxism would totally agree that increasing personal wealth is how to increase standards of living.


Oh so Marxism has never existed then, since all 'Socialist' countries allowed people personal wealth accumulation.

No it isn't. If you want to compare health outcomes between Australia and Cuba go right ahead. I know which system I'd prefer to use.


Thats the thing, i don't need to. They're both based on Marxist ideology, and ive been happy with outcomes of both countries considering the economic conditions. And with that, saving many people living in poverty from death.

Don't think you're going to like the outcome.


If you manage to find a country that is Laissez-faire Capitalism, sure.
Some even consider the #1 country to live in the world as Socialist, that being Norway. But you'd argue against that wouldn't you? You'd begin looking at the neoliberal policies within that society.

So, follow your own line of reasoning, and look at the Marxist policies within Capitalism and the benefits they've had. I've already acknowledged the usefulness of markets.
05:41pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2627 posts
Oh so Marxism has never existed then, since all 'Socialist' countries allowed people personal wealth accumulation.

You can't possibly be serious. Marxism is explicitly and profoundly against the accumulation of personal wealth (capital). You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


Thats the thing, i don't need to. They're both based on Marxist ideology, and ive been happy with outcomes of both countries considering the economic conditions. And with that, saving many people living in poverty from death.


You do, because Australia's health policy is not in any way Marxist. It actively encourages people to get private health cover, and is designed to get the private sector to do as much as possible. It is literally the opposite of Marxist.

If you manage to find a country that is Laissez-faire Capitalism, sure


You mean like the US.

I've already acknowledged the usefulness of markets.


Marxism is flatly and uncontroversially against markets. This is an admission you're not much of a Marxist.
06:05pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5434 posts
You can't possibly be serious


You laugh when i state a country isn't real Socialism. So now you're attempting to argue that Cuba isn't real Socialism.

You do, because Australia's health policy is not in any way Marxist. It actively encourages people to get private health cover, and is designed to get the private sector to do as much as possible. It is literally the opposite of Marxist.


Completely false. Private health is a luxury option in Australia, nowhere near a necessity. Public health is where most of the work is done.

You mean like the US.


As neoliberal the U.S is, it still isn't anywhere near Laissez-faire Capitalism.

This is an admission you're not much of a Marxist.


I see the benefits of both. Marx said Capitalism is great for development, and then we convert to Socialism & eventually Communism.
06:21pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2628 posts
Private health is a luxury option in Australia, nowhere near a necessity. Public health is where most of the work is done.


I think by completely false you mean exactly accurate. Why is the medicare levy greater than a private health insurance policy then vash?

You laugh when i state a country isn't real Socialism. So now you're attempting to argue that Cuba isn't real Socialism.


Cuba doesn't allow the accumulation of personal wealth. Castro confiscated all property when he came to power. That was sort of the whole thing.

You literally have no idea about Marxism if you think its ok with accumulating personal wealth.

As neoliberal the U.S is, it still isn't anywhere near Laissez-faire Capitalism.


Why not? Capitalism is not the absence of all law.

Marx said Capitalism is great for development, and then we convert to Socialism & eventually Communism.


You just have no idea do you.
06:33pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5435 posts
Why is the medicare levy greater than a private health insurance policy then vash?


Except it isn't. You have excesses and yearly limitations on private and other costs on top. Then you're forgetting many GPs bulk bill, the PBS keeps medicine cheap for all, and public hospitals do most of the work.
Private health has very little impact on Australian health outcomes. Private provides mostly optometry, dental & luxury hospital care.

I don't support private as i see it as another industry to grow and eventually convince Government to shrink the capabilities of public health.

Cuba doesn't allow the accumulation of personal wealth. Castro confiscated all property when he came to power. That was sort of the whole thing.


If you're being paid a wage you're accumulating wealth, PP. Marx both sees the benefit of this & eventually wants to see it as something that isnt required (Full communism)

You really haven't read any Marx at all, have you?

Why not? Capitalism is not the absence of all law.


Laissez-faire is a complete lack of regulation of the markets, which is pure Capitalism. No unions, or Marxist interventions. Certainly not a desirable system.
06:41pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2629 posts
Except it isn't.


Yeah it is. go to iselect and chose a policy for "tax purposes" you giant jackass.

Then you're forgetting many GPs bulk bill,


The laughs never have to stop. I know I can't walk down the street without tripping over a bulk billing GP.

If you're being paid a wage you're accumulating wealth, PP. Marx both sees the benefit of this & eventually wants to see it as something that isnt required (Full communism)


This is concrete ironclad proof that you can't possibly have read any Marx at all. He very clearly states that being paid a wage that never lets you get a capital asset are the precise conditions of servitude communism is designed to break.

I've honestly never encountered someone who so perfectly encompasses the concept in the Dunning–Kruger effect.

It is just perfection. You will talk about people being ignorant and then spout s*** like that. *the point* of Marx is the inability of the proletariat to convert their wages into capital assets.

Laissez-faire is a complete lack of regulation of the markets, which is pure Capitalism.


But markets require laws Vash.
07:26pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5436 posts
Yeah it is. go to iselect and chose a policy for "tax purposes" you giant jackass.


Aaand you're ignoring all the other costs on top. And the immense benefits public health provides for less cost.

He very clearly states that being paid a wage that never lets you get a capital asset are the precise conditions of servitude communism is designed to break.


They're still able to accumulate wealth, PP, and you said they aren't allowed to. Marxism is a road to Communism, and on the way there the idea is to get more value, or wealth, for your labor. Eventually currency won't be required.

But markets require laws Vash.


Probably, i dont know too much about Laissez-faire, but according to wiki: it's an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs, and subsidies.
Ayn Rand said, "The only action which a government can take to protect free competition is: Laissez-faire.

I think we can all disagree with that one (Except faceman, probably)
07:58pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2630 posts
Aaand you're ignoring all the other costs on top.


What are you even talking about Vash. Are you trying to say that private health insurance is actually provided for by the public or something? Its a clear cut case of trying to incentivize people paying for their own health care Vash. With the explicit goal of reducing the demand on the public system. Literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.

They're still able to accumulate wealth, PP, and you said they aren't allowed to


No they aren't Vash. Most property is owned by the state and they will not sell it. There was a huge round of confiscation of farm lands etc when Castro came to power. You cannot possibly not know this.

Marxism is a road to Communism, and on the way there the idea is to get more value, or wealth, for your labor.


It just isn't Vash. The idea is to make "wealth" redundant. You are literally talking about the opposite of the idea

Probably, i dont know too much about Laissez-faire


Clearly.
08:09pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5437 posts
This is getting abit tiring.

With the explicit goal of reducing the demand on the public system.


Yet public handles the majority of health outcomes in Australia. Try again.

No they aren't Vash

You cannot possibly not know this.


Money is wealth PP. And i do know this, and it isn't relevant to what you said.

It just isn't Vash. The idea is to make "wealth" redundant. You are literally talking about the opposite of the idea


Correct. Marxism is a road to making wealth redundant. That's the end goal. We're not there yet, not even close. So Marxists promote getting more wealth for the working classes until the correct material conditions are met to eliminate the need for wealth & the consumption economy.
08:29pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2631 posts
Yet public handles the majority of health outcomes in Australia. Try again.


Dude the public health system accounts for about 65% of all hospital beds, but most specialists try to work with private patients as much as possible. You don't have any figures to back that claim up, and I can point to a very specific health policy clearly aimed at getting people out of the public health system. Which cannot be justified in Marxist terms. Australia's health system is in no way Marxist.

This is becoming a case of you're not even wrong. The answers you're giving make no sense at all. It's not even clear you're talking about the same topic.

Money is wealth PP. And i do know this, and it isn't relevant to what you said.


How many Cuban billionaires are there vash? *edit* not counting the castro brothers */edit*

So Marxists promote getting more wealth for the working classes until the correct material conditions are met to eliminate the need for wealth & the consumption economy.


So Marxists are trying to make as many working class billionaires as possible right?
08:50pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5438 posts
but most specialists try to work with private patients as much as possible.


The best surgeons work both in public & private hospitals, where needed. Nothing to do with 'trying' to work with private patients. It's where the requirement is, and if the patient requires the specialist and is paying premium for private hospital access, then they should get it.
The point is, the public system handles majority of health issues, via GPs & public hospitals. Regardless of a person's wealth, which is based off Marxism.


How many Cuban billionaires are there vash?


How is this relevant at all? Money is wealth, PP, regardless of the amount of it. You said they weren't allowed wealth.

So Marxists are trying to make as many working class billionaires as possible right?


No. Just getting the full value of their labor.
09:31pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2632 posts
The point is, the public system handles majority of health issues, via GPs & public hospitals. Regardless of a person's wealth, which is based off Marxism.


Vash the ABS states that about 60% of Australians over the age of 18 have private health insurance. This is because of a range of policies designed to get people to pay for their own health care.

Availability of health care is not an especially Marxist idea, and Marxist principles do not get used to deliver healthcare in Australia. Just stop. You're wrong, and don't know what you're talking about.

How is this relevant at all? Money is wealth, PP, regardless of the amount of it. You said they weren't allowed wealth.


I said they aren't allowed to accumulate wealth Vash, If people are allowed to accumulate wealth you'd expect some people to become more wealthy than others. People get paid what the state determines they require to pay for basic necessities under the cuban system. It is a perverse definition of wealth to state people who never get more than they need to get by for the week are wealthy Vash.

No. Just getting the full value of their labor.


They can't get the full value of their labour by being paid according to Marx because all value is labour.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.
09:38pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5439 posts
Availability of health care is not an especially Marxist idea


Actually it is, PP. Universal health care is directly based off Socialist ideology.
So i think you should just stop now, you're clutching at straws at this point.

I said they aren't allowed to accumulate wealth Vash


Which is factually wrong no matter how you're spinning it. If they have an income they're accumulating wealth.

They can't get the full value of their labour by being paid according to Marx because all value is labour.


Under this system, that's correct. Socialists have been fighting for workers rights and have had great success over the last century. It doesn't mean they aren't Marxists by attempting to help people get more wage value for their productivity. They're bound by the limitations of the system.
10:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18398 posts

The biggest s***holes in Africa are the result of tinpot Marxist revolutionaries.


It's a bit more complicated than that. There are certainly people who amass power and do their best to take and do what they want, that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.
10:30pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18399 posts

I was going to respond to this, but I think now you need to take five minutes and think about what you've said.

Take this with you when you think. we live now in Pax Americana

the times we live in are, as an empirical fact, the most prosperous, most safe, least war like, most egalitarian times that have ever existed for human kind.

When you have some cogent rebuttal to that last sentence we can talk more Toll.


You're kind of like Infi, keep skipping over s***.

America has been at war almost every year since it become a nation. I never said anything about it being a good or bad thing. I never said it did or didn't lead to prosperity.

However, America has been at war a lot, a s*** load, almost every year. I can't help that America's prosperity involves being at war, at least in part.
10:34pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5440 posts


It's a bit more complicated than that. There are certainly people who amass power and do their best to take and do what they want, that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.


Yeah it's like PP thinks 'Marxist' leaders are immune from corruption, or something.
10:53pm 02/07/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1310 posts
I believe a new world order could be realised if Vash, Porno Pete and Toll could agree.
11:06pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5441 posts

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/jennifer-oriel/faithless-australians-may-lose-more-than-just-god/news-story/6a34b099a828ee3b5ccefbe52d2a20ee

Australia was created as a nation under God. Soon, it will fall. In the latest census, only 52 per cent of the population identified as Christian. Atheist groups are celebrating the decline of Christianity and the prospect of a nation without God, while cultural relativists are heralding a brave new world of multiculturalism.

Contrary to popular sentiment, the loss of Christian faith is not a cause for celebration or apathy. Christianity is the generative principle of the free world. Without it, liberal democracy will become hollow and the light of liberty will be put out.


Lol. The Australian is always good for a laugh.
02:27am 03/07/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13706 posts
^ Lol
In fact Christianity and other dogmatic ideologies are essentially the antitheses of liberalism
03:04am 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2633 posts
The lowest living standards in africa are very closely tied to Marxist governments Toll. I'm not going to argue it with you. The idea that power concentrated in the hands of a few is "not marxist" is fundamentally ignorant.
that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.
You're kind of like Infi, keep skipping over s***.

America has been at war almost every year since it become a nation. I never said anything about it being a good or bad thing. I never said it did or didn't lead to prosperity.

However, America has been at war a lot, a s*** load, almost every year. I can't help that America's prosperity involves being at war, at least in part.


You seem to be incapable of understanding what was being discussed. The fact that America has been involved in wars does not establish that capitalism requires war, or that America needs it. Next you'll be saying that they brought the war on terror on themselves or somes***.



Actually it is, PP. Universal health care is directly based off Socialist ideology.
So i think you should just stop now, you're clutching at straws at this point.


It just isn't Vash. Modern medicine has its roots in the French revolution and the enlightenment if anything. and more importantly Medicare was introduced by non-socialists in Australia. But lets not forget that what we were actually talking about which was whether or not Australia's medical system is Marxist. And considering a comfortable majority of Australian's pay for their own healthcare and government policy is geared to achieve this result, explain to me how you apply Marxist principles to get to that outcome. Marxist principles would lead you to have everyone under the government health system, not actively push people out.

Which is factually wrong no matter how you're spinning it. If they have an income they're accumulating wealth.


Oh my word you have no idea what you are talking about. It what sense is living a life of rationed austerity accumulating wealth Vash? They get paid exactly what they need to survive no more no less. Which means incidentally they are actually further divorced from the value of their labour because it doesn't matter if they are making something worthless or valuable they still get the same ration of food.

Accumulating wealth is the antitheses of Marxist thinking, you have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about. Wages prevented from becoming capital assets is *precisely* what identifies the proletariat from slaves and serfs according to Marx. So the fact hat Cuban workers get any money at all being indicative of "wealth" is something Marx himself straightforwardly contradicts.

Here is an idea, if its so awesome go live there Vash.

Socialists have been fighting for workers rights and have had great success over the last century. It doesn't mean they aren't Marxists by attempting to help people get more wage value for their productivity.


Yep and the greatest benefit workers got in Australia was abandoning that approach freeing up access to capital and taking pay cuts in exchange for tax cuts. Or in otherwords living standards in Australia were achieved by the labor party abandoning Marxist thinking and adopting free market thinking. And where that hasn't happened you can watch living standards stagnate or fall.
07:37am 03/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40655 posts
never have so many words (this thard), achieved so little (nothing).
08:01am 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2634 posts
Yeah it's like PP thinks 'Marxist' leaders are immune from corruption, or something.


F*** me you're train wreck of humanity. It's not Marxism's fault Marxism it can't deal with corruption.
08:02am 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12826 posts
" ...will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"



11:49am 03/07/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4021 posts
Tony Abbott is officially Rudd 2.0. A narcissistic sociopath doing more harm to his party than good for the sake of his own ego.
01:08pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2088 posts
Tone pls come back. We need you.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTByMVgCEAA7z2-.jpg
02:58pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5442 posts
The idea that power concentrated in the hands of a few is "not marxist" is fundamentally ignorant.


Except it goes against the very idea of Marxism. In the rest of your post, you're cherry picking things that are not Marxist, yet you're ignoring the fact that power concentrated in the hands of a few is fundamentally anti-Marxist.

Next you'll be saying that they brought the war on terror on themselves or somes***.


Well you'd have to be dumb to discount that, considering the amount of involvement they've had in the middle east... Family killed by Americans over the years are surely going to create radicals, don't you think?

Marxist principles would lead you to have everyone under the government health system, not actively push people out.


Marxists arent trying to push people away from a universal health system. That's the actions of political opponents. We live in a democracy, FYI.
Medicare was created by Whitlam, someone who believed in many Socialist policies.

Oh my word you have no idea what you are talking about.


Whole bunch of words that aren't even relevant. You know i was just pointing out that your statement is factually wrong, you could try to reword it if you like.

Yep and the greatest benefit workers got in Australia was abandoning that approach freeing up access to capital and taking pay cuts in exchange for tax cuts.


Debatable. I'd say the greatest benefit workers got was a stronger union movement and the benefits it provided over the last century. But to each his her own.

It's not Marxism's fault Marxism it can't deal with corruption.


Not sure what this word salad means.
03:01pm 03/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21292 posts
Tony Abbott is officially Rudd 2.0. A narcissistic sociopath doing more harm to his party than good for the sake of his own ego.


he is the literal f*****g embodiment of this saying:

you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
03:23pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5443 posts
I wouldn't put Rudd into the same basket as Abbott. Abbott is an actual trainwreck of humanity who had no good policy platform and is now doing exactly the thing that he said he wouldn't.

Rudd, at least, put forward really solid policies & infrastructure until it was wrecking-balled by the LNP. You also have to consider the campaign against Rudd when he was doing things to upset wealthy business interests. (Mining, Coal industries + News Corp)
His polls dived extremely quickly once those ads started popping up everywhere.

It's funny people think of the ABC as biased when you got front pages like what Sir Redhat just posted.
03:34pm 03/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39055 posts

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/jennifer-oriel/faithless-australians-may-lose-more-than-just-god/news-story/6a34b099a828ee3b5ccefbe52d2a20ee



Lol. The Australian is always good for a laugh.
when people complain the ABC does not have enough conservative opinion, is this legit the sort of thing they mean?
05:05pm 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12827 posts
The ABC is Taxpayer owned and should not be biased according to its Charter.
The Murdoch Media Conspiracy can say whatever they like just like Fairfax but we all know which the Public prefers.

Tony Abbott and his Onions of Wrath are not the solution to the Holocaust facing the Liberal Party next Election. Brian Trunbull, Backstabber Bishop, The Fixer and Bankrobber Morrison have to go. Only one man can save The Liberal Party and preserve our Liberal Democracy...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChfviRvUcAAiXsW.jpg

06:11pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5444 posts
we all know which the Public prefers.


Indeed. they prefer the ABC.
Just shows again, public institutions provide more reliable outcomes in certain industries.
Now if you believe certain people, public institutions only lead to Government propaganda & huge inefficiencies. Just look at Venezuela & Cuba!
06:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2635 posts
In the rest of your post, you're cherry picking things that are not Marxist, yet you're ignoring the fact that power concentrated in the hands of a few is fundamentally anti-Marxist.


Yes by cherry picking you mean showing that power becoming concentrated in the hands of a few every single time Marxism has ever been implemented.

But you fail to address why this happens and why it is baked into to Marxist Philosophy. Marxist Philosophy preaches democracy while simultaneously preaching the revolutionary over throw of the institutions which prevent democratic power becoming concentrated in the hands of a few. For example, you cannot get a doctrine of separation of powers out of marxist doctrine, and you can empirically observe that Marxist countries have no separation of powers, and so they aren't democracies. But this would be adult level thinking you needn't concern yourself with it.

Marxists arent trying to push people away from a universal health system.


You can't possibly be actually that bad at reading comprehension Vash. I know Marxists aren't trying to do that, that's *my point* which demonstrates that Australia's healthcare system *is not Marxist*.

Medicare was implemented by hawk and keating and they were free marketeers vash. It has been designed to work in tandem with the private sector since it began.

You know i was just pointing out that your statement is factually wrong, you could try to reword it if you like.


My statement is factually accurate Vash. Cuban's aren't allowed to accumulate wealth, they are rationed subsistence level commodities. Until 2009 buying and selling things between private parties was banned.

Not sure what this word salad means


It means as per usual, when someone points out marxist countries are rife with corruption, and Marxism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Marxism, you say, again, wasn't true marxism. Which was the substance on most of that post.

Well you'd have to be dumb to discount that, considering the amount of involvement they've had in the middle east


Oh so did they bring it on themselves.
06:48pm 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12828 posts
Indeed. they prefer the ABC.


Then why are my Taxes paying for it ?
According to you Vash it is more popular than its competition.
Privatize it so it can grow even bigger and sell the navel-gazing symbolic solutions of The Left, like Fairfax Media.

Fairfax shares have been smashed after it failed to entice private equity buyers to part with their cash to take over the media and real estate company.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-03/fairfax-proceeds-with-domain-spin-off-despite-lack-of-private-e/8672800

06:54pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2089 posts
07:14pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5445 posts
For example, you cannot get a doctrine of separation of powers out of marxist doctrine, and you can empirically observe that Marxist countries have no separation of powers, and so they aren't democracies


Sure you can. Marxism is all about separation of powers. The states that still exist with Marxist inspired Governments, have failed to transfer power to the people and have instead remained dictatorships.
Which is why they're referred to by both Chomsky & Orwell as state capitalists.
I simply observe the elements of these countries which are based off Marxism that have greatly benefited people, the downsides being the state capitalist elements (authoritarian, propaganda state TV, censorships, people have no control over production, etc)

I know Marxists aren't trying to do that, that's *my point* which demonstrates that Australia's healthcare system *is not Marxist*.


Uhm, that doesn't prove your point at all, PP.
We're just repeating ourselves here. Public health is based on Socialist ideology - fact. Our health system is superior to the richest country in the world, purely because of this.
The main reason it's being tainted by private institutions is due to political opposition and said private institutions pushing for it.
So by it having elements of private within the system, does not discount the majority of health outcomes social healthcare provides.

Also, again, Medicare was introduced by Whitlam, and taken away by the LNP and then reintroduced by Hawke. Do some reading before you post, already.

It means as per usual, when someone points out marxist countries are rife with corruption, and Marxism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Marxism, you say, again, wasn't true marxism.


By the same token, we can point out Capitalist countries rife with corruption, and Capitalism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Capitalism... you get the idea.

Oh so did they bring it on themselves.


Please tell us more how they didn't.
07:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39058 posts
Man I scanned the comments in that Australian article saying our country is doomed and at first was pleasantly surprised that they actually published a few athiest-ish comments. But the further down you scroll the more bizarre it gets. "It is notably strange how atheists seem to side with warrior Islamists, rather than pacifist Christians."

Someone at the Australian actually clicked 'publish' on that comment
07:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5446 posts
According to you Vash it is more popular than its competition. Privatize it so it can grow even bigger and sell the navel-gazing symbolic solutions of The Left, like Fairfax Media.


Why would they privatise it if it's working so well? It's the most trusted news source.

Maybe if it became privatised it would lose everything that made it special.
07:41pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2636 posts
The states that still exist with Marxist inspired Governments, have failed to transfer power to the people and have instead remained dictatorships.


you don't really get separation of powers do you vash?


Uhm, that doesn't prove your point at all, PP.


Oh the mere fact that it's policy structure can't be reconciled with marxist principles isn't a show stopper. Ok.

also, again, Medicare was introduced by Whitlam, and taken away by the LNP and then reintroduced by Hawke. Do some reading before you post, already.


Medibank was introduced by Whitlam Vash. Medicare is similar but with altered funding arrangements, specifically to bring government spending within around 25% of GDP IE consistent with free market thinking that excessive government spending distorts the market. It's a freemarket policy vash. You really need to do the basic reading on any subject before you post.

Public health is based on Socialist ideology - fact.

No it isn't. Public health funds predate Marxism Vash, again how about you do some reading.

By the same token, we can point out Capitalist countries rife with corruption, and Capitalism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Capitalism... you get the idea.


False equivalence much?

Please tell us more how they didn't.


How the US didn't bring a deliberate attempt to kill as many civilians as possible on themselves. How about you explain how they did Vash? how about you start with US involvement in Sykes-picot.
07:42pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5447 posts

you don't really get separation of powers do you vash?


Sure i do. It simply works differently under Marxism. The goal being, decentralising power & giving it to councils run by the population instead of Government appointed judiciaries & lawmakers, and ultimately abolition of the state is pretty much the epitome of seperation of powers.

Oh the mere fact that it's policy structure can't be reconciled with marxist principles isn't a show stopper. Ok.


Except the very idea of an institution that provides a vital service to the entire population regardless of his or her wealth, is based on Marxism. But that isn't a show stopper for you either, is it.

Medibank was introduced by Whitlam Vash.


So Whitlam did introduce Medicare, albeit named differently. Thanks.

False equivalence much?


Actually, an almost exact equivalence.

deliberate attempt to kill as many civilians as possible on themselves. How about you explain how they did Vash?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+the+US+created+isis+and+al+qaeda
08:29pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2637 posts
The goal being, decentralising power & giving it to councils run by the population instead of Government appointed judiciaries & lawmakers, and ultimately abolition of the state is pretty much the epitome of seperation of powers.


It's the opposite of separation of powers vash. The idea is that you have separated institutions of government, which can't be unseated. But don't worry, paraphrasing the wiki entry sure is impressive.

Except the very idea of an institution that provides a vital service to the entire population regardless of his or her wealth, is based on Marxism


No it isn't vash. Public health funds started in Germany in the 1820's. They *predate* Karl Marx, came before, can't possibly be based on.

Medicare, is predicated on capital being allocated in a free market creating enough excess wealth to pay for it. It is literally the opposite of marxist thinking, it is straight up capital being liberating not oppressive. You seriously need to read some Marx.

So Whitlam did introduce Medicare, albeit named differently. Thanks.


Yes the only thing that changed for a funding system for health care was how it was funded. Please learn to read

Actually, an almost exact equivalence.


Yes regular elections versus 50 years of single leader. It's like I'm seeing double.

oh a let me google that for you. You don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash?
08:47pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5448 posts
The idea is that you have separated institutions of government, which can't be unseated.


Separation of powers isn't isolated to Government institutions, PP. You can separate powers via dismantling Government institutions & decentralizing power. There are many ways to go about this, and isn't unique to liberal democracy, as much as you've been misled to believe.

It is literally the opposite of marxist thinking, it is straight up capital being liberating not oppressive. You seriously need to read some Marx.


Not at all. Why do you think so many conservative commentators call public health, 'Socialist medicine'?
Yes, public healthcare uses capital, it has no choice but to in a Capitalist economy. The idea is based on Socialism, that is, a transitional system to provide healthcare for all until capital is no longer required.

Every Socialist has implemented it, and every libertarian has fought against it.

Yes the only thing that changed for a funding system for health care was how it was funded. Please learn to read


You're really struggling aren't you?

Yes regular elections versus 50 years of single leader. It's like I'm seeing double.


Mass corruption exists regardless of elections, PP. Are you really that naive?

oh a let me google that for you.


Yes, get reading.
10:01pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2638 posts
Separation of powers isn't isolated to Government institutions, PP.

Yes it is, that's the point of you utter utter moron.

The idea is based on Socialism, that is, a transitional system to provide healthcare for all until capital is no longer required


The only problem being that that day will never come will it vash. Marx said Capitalism would self destruct, here we are 170 years later and it's doing fine and Marxism is a conspiracy theory touted by idiots like you. The idea that capital is liberating is fundamentally contradictory of Marxism Vash. Again you have no f*****g idea what you're talking about do you.

But for the final time, Public Health Care is not a socialist idea Vash. Public Health Funds were started in Germany and required Employer contributions in around the 1820's. they predate Marxism.

You're really struggling aren't you?


Are you denying that Keating and Hawke altered the funding model before reintroducing it Vash? It is a matter of public record that they did. go and read.

Mass corruption exists regardless of elections, PP. Are you really that naive?


So corruption is comparably rife in the UK or US as in China or North Korea hey? Are you really that stupid? Actually we know the answer to that Vash.

Yes, get reading.


So you don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash, nor do you have any idea of the pivotal role it plays in geo politics in the region, and the fact that both Al-Qaeda and ISIS call for it to be repealed. It just easier to say the white devil the US caused all the worlds woes.

It's just sad to see how badly an education system can fail someone.
07:21am 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5449 posts
Yes it is, that's the point of you utter utter moron.


Are you seriously suggesting separation of powers cannot be done in other ways after abolition of the state?

Marx said Capitalism would self destruct, here we are 170 years later and it's doing fine


Is it PP? 170 years is a very short period of time in human history and for an economic system. Capitalism, in my view, is like a hard hitting drug, we're still on the high, and the comedown has yet to come. Though there are hints of disaster approaching considering the level of world debt.
Economies that rely on infinite growth & ultimate consumerism, it's just a matter of time until they fall over.

So corruption is comparably rife in the UK or US as in China or North Korea hey?


How about we look at say... Philippines, or Africa, or much of Latin America?
How about Mexico? Russia? Turkey?


So you don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash, nor do you have any idea of the pivotal role it plays in geo politics in the region


No i don't, and it isn't something i really care to read into. Reading plenty of accounts from experts on the region, and the actions of the West, it's pretty safe to say if the U.S did not initiate an invasion of Iraq and then following to other regions, ISIS would not exist.
It's nothing to do with skin color, PP. The U.S pushes its own interest internationally, regardless of laws. It's a nation that loves war.
You can choose to ignore the atrocities the U.S has committed. We all know you enjoy having your head in the sand (Trump criticism awaiting)
08:14am 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2639 posts
are you seriously suggesting separation of powers cannot be done in other ways after abolition of the state?

You're not even wrong here Vash. You clearly don't understand the concept buddy.

Is it PP?


Yes, yes it is doing absolutely fine, in fact it's never been as entrenched globally as it is now. Marxism not so much.

How about we look at say... Philippines, or Africa, or much of Latin America?
How about Mexico? Russia? Turkey?


Ok lets look at the Philippines as opposed to comparing the worlds second largest economy to the largest. I mean why anyone would make that comparison just out of thin air right?

According to transparency international China and the Philippines score 40 and 35 respectively. One is vying for super power status, the other is a third world country with incredibly weak governance institutions. so a totally sensible comparison there and china *barely* beats it.

As for Africa again why don't we look at Marxist revolutionary Mugabe's Zimbabwe, oh look at that it comes 174 in a list 176.

No i don't, and it isn't something i really care to read into


Imagine my shock. Please carry on explaining how the US brought 9/11 on themselves by invading Iraq in response to 9/11, those wascally white devils.

(Trump criticism awaiting)


IF you're waiting for me to lose my s*** the way you have Vash, it isn't going to happen. My criticisms are a matter of record, go look them up.
06:54pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5450 posts
Yes, yes it is doing absolutely fine


World debt of 325% of GDP is absolutely fine, and sustainable. Ok PP.

in fact it's never been as entrenched globally as it is now.


Quite worrying when much of the world is reliant on a system that is on it's last legs.

IF you're waiting for me to lose my s*** the way you have Vash, it isn't going to happen.


Yes because your head is firmly in the sand. You should be losing your s*** if you had any idea what impact climate change is going to have. But no, everything is fine, PP. Capitalism is running absolutely fine. Climate change is also nothing to worry about.
You're an absolute moron.


08:06pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2640 posts
Oh climate change thanks for that vash. and link to a chomsky video. Is there bulk discount on those things?

There is the incoherent clutching at straws we were all waiting for.

So to get this into perspective, the original discussion points were:

1. Australia's public health system isn't Marxist. (it's not)
2. Separation of powers is not encompassed in marxist doctrine. (It's not, plus now we know Vash doesn't understand this concept)
3. The US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves. (they didn't)

Now you're saying I've got my head in the sand because trump + climate change.

Please continue shouting catch phrases at me. They are a great substitute for genuine reasoning. You can hold the moral high ground without ever having to engage in self reflection.

What a pathetic sad excuse for a human being you are Vash.
08:24pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5451 posts
Oh climate change thanks for that vash. and link to a chomsky video


Yeah only the most important issue humanity will probably face. Just a minor little issue isn't it PP?
Chomsky is the one we should all be listening to, he's an encyclopedia in the flesh. It's hilarious you even attempt to discount him as a person worth listening to.

1. Australia's public health system isn't Marxist.


It is based on Marxism, yup. Even your conservative buddies say so.

2. Separation of powers is not encompassed in marxist doctrine. (It's not, plus now we know Vash doesn't understand this concept)


It is actually. Marxism's entire goal is decentralisation of power structures, and putting it into the hands of people, you know, separation of powers. You seem to be limited in thinking to liberal democracy which is understandable (since you haven't read Marx)

3. The US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves.


They did actually, but you can keep ignoring experts on that one, little buddy. Just like you do on every other single issue.
08:42pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2641 posts
keep trying vash you will get there one day.

You haven't read Marx so you don't know what a marxist policy is. Marxism doesn't advocate separation of powers, and you are continuing to demonstrate to the point that you should ashamed how little you understand the concept, and the US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves (the only actual event you can name happened after 9/11, truly champagne comedy).

You've already admitted your ignorance on every single one of these issues Vash.

Just because you adopt my phrasing doesn't mean we are on the same level, little buddy.

Chomsky is a discredited ass hat who indulges in flatout conspiracy theory. I get why you like him so much.

but you can keep ignoring experts on that one, little buddy. Just like you do on every other single issue.


Says the marxist who's never read Marx.
08:49pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5452 posts
You haven't read Marx so you don't know what a marxist policy is.


Says the guy that thinks Marxism is about gathering concentration of power. The absolute ignorance on display here is hilarious if not sad.

Chomsky is a discredited ass hat


Discredited by you, isn't discredited, PP.

But hey, let's just float on over to the real issues. How about we talk more about Climate change, PP? Maybe you need to learn how serious it is, and then you might finally realise how dangerous a Trump presidency is. Or you could just take Faceman's stance.
08:55pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2642 posts
Says the guy that thinks Marxism is about gathering concentration of power. The absolute ignorance on display here is hilarious if not sad.


It is really funny how obviously you do not understand the concept of separation of powers vash. Just keep digging little buddy. When you can point to a passage in a marx text which explicit discusses how the organization of power is to be separated you'll have a point. You haven't read them so I won't hold my breath. All the functions of government being localized is a totally different concept, and all of them being given to a local "council" (which is what happened in Russia and China) is concentrating power in a single institution. You simply do not understand the concept, and the more you type, the more blatent it is. You're a poster child for mandatory civics in schools.

How about we talk more about Climate change, PP? Maybe you need to learn how serious it is, and then you might finally realise how dangerous a Trump presidency is.


Dude the reason you have a boner for climate change is the same reason all marxists do. It's because you think it will finally bring about the end of capitalism. Its transparent as f*** and really pathetic. Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.

Anyway, it is entertaining watch someone wail about the influence of propaganda while simultaneously being the biggest repeatedly demonstrated victim of it.

Chomsky isn't discredited by me vash, when was the last time he influenced a policy? Nobody listens to him because he has been spouting the same s***e for the last 40 years. He is a joke, and literally the only reason you quote him is because I said he sucks balls.

I've got my hand up you're ass and I'm working you like a sock puppet.
09:25pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5453 posts
Look at this deflection right here

Dude the reason you have a boner for climate change is the same reason all marxists do.


It has nothing to do with ending Capitalism or Marxism. It's about, you know, giving a s*** about human life.

Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.


You actually believe this? This is the point i should post that don't go full retard video, but thankfully i'm not pathetic.

I've got my hand up you're ass and I'm working you like a sock puppet.


Haha. So cute and delusional. You really hate being called out don't you? Your* btw.

Anyway, let me know when you're actually ready to acknowledge science, PP.
09:41pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2643 posts
Oh vash

It's about, you know, giving a s*** about human life.


You care so deeply its obvious thats why you believe in a system that has killed 100s of millions of people.

You actually believe this?


See. Not just me. Barack obama, tim flannery, the IPCC they all want to form carbon markets. Markets vash. Capitalism Vash.

Who is denying the science here?

So how about that UK election huh, It's funny how the government moved the to right of where it was. How about that French election, moved to the right aswell.

How about that bernie sanders huh, paying a lower effective tax rate than trump. Man of the people that guy, he'll spend everyone's money to save the world. Just not his.
07:25am 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5454 posts
Yes, i do care PP. That's why we move away from Capitalism, FYI.

Barack obama, tim flannery, the IPCC they all want to form carbon markets. Markets vash. Capitalism Vash.


Notice Trump missing from this lil nugget? Markets require heavily regulation to ensure environments aren't devastated.
And who's a nation with a 'Communist Party' that's doing more than the U.S on climate change? Why that's China... interesting.

So again, talk to me again when you're capable of criticising Trump's dangerous (or lack of) policies. Or, acknowledging the seriousness of the science.

And get some philosophy up ya. You might learn something.



It's a scary communist, PP. He surely wants to take all your money & put you in a gulag.
09:58am 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5455 posts
http://i.imgur.com/PPujfoh.jpg

and so it begins...
10:23am 05/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12829 posts
Thats Horrifying - NSW winning two Origin Series in a row ?

North Korea now has a Nuclear capable missile that can reach Australia.
We must install a Bollard Defense System around Darwin.

how about Sarah Hanson-Dumb and taking her sick daughter on a Plane trip, a chauffeur driven ride to be healed by the Whales courtesy of Taxpayers.
the greens = just like all the other Partys.

12:07pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40661 posts
ease up there facey, im sure that small fry compared to the rorts the big boys pull.
05:59pm 05/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2644 posts
Notice Trump missing from this lil nugget?

You really really want me to be a trump supporter don't you vash. everything it is box, everyone from their tribe.

and who's a nation with a 'Communist Party' that's doing more than the U.S on climate change? Why that's China... interesting.

Yeah they are doing double the emissions that cause climate change. Nice.

And get some philosophy up ya. You might learn something.


I suppose it would be mean to point out zizek endorsed trump wouldn't it.
06:40pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5456 posts
Yes, i know that he did PP, and i predicted you'd throw that strawman at me.

Zizek thinks Trump is a disaster, but also seems to think he will shake up politics enough for a new left to mobilise, something i agree with, though not without a large amount of damage having been done.

Edit: Also just found this
might be a more credible source for deaths under Capitalism.
07:15pm 05/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39062 posts
ease up there facey, im sure that small fry compared to the rorts the big boys pull.
Yeh this is kind of a handy guide to how much of our money our new aristocracy is spending
07:31pm 05/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2645 posts
Yes, i know that he did PP, and i predicted you'd throw that strawman at me.


No you didn't and it isn't a strawman. He did endorse trump. and to quote from the man himself

He is not a dangerous guy who is appearing to be polite. All his violent outbursts - completely vulgar, tasteless statements - mask the fact that there is nothing extraordinary about him."


Not pulling "disaster" out of that. He seems to be implying that he is less dangerous than Hilary.

Zizek thinks Trump is a disaster, but also seems to think he will shake up politics enough for a new left to mobilise, something i agree with, though not without a large amount of damage having been done.


So let me see if I follow this reasoning.

You've said the principle reason trump is super dangerous is because climate change is super serial. He is going to do, in the next 4 to 8 years, irreparable damage to the climate.

On the other hand you had Hillary who is and was committed to action on climate change and making the Paris accords work.

So on election day You should vote against someone from the left who will act on climate change, and instead vote for someone who will do irreparable damage to the climate.

You should do this because it will create a renewal of zest or vim on the left which is needed in part to tackle climate change.

Good one. Absolutely impeccable. You should vote against doing something now, because in doing so you can build support for doing that same thing later.



Edit: Also just found this


Oh guerrilla ontologies this sounds promising. I think you just did the credibility equivalent of dividing by zero.
07:59pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4609 posts
while Trump and his base of Reddit s***posters and other deplorables decry CNN as fakes and frauds without offering any actual rebuttal, at least the Daily Telegraph makes it easy

Daily Telegraph, sucking Abbott's d*** since 2013
08:19pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2090 posts
The 3rd column of that tele headline sounds kinda nice.
09:16pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18402 posts

Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.


I think you're missing the point here.

It seems more and more likely that climate change isn't going to be 'solved'. It seems the time for any meaningful change has past, now it's more about damage control. I agree with your assessment in that capitalism is probably the better cultural system available to create fastest adaption.. for the people that can afford it anyway. Sucks to be poor in such situations.

F***, it's been a while since I've seen a bee...
09:51pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18403 posts
Vash.

Too much socialism creates problems, this you must understand. Public liability insurance is a problem caused by socialism. Having to protect everyone from the most retarded stuff because people seemingly can't be held responsible and accountable for their own safety.

No doubt you have heard of the situation with the Urban Food Street problem? Local government is ripping down the communities self-created fruit trees? Tree's that are essentially on the sides of the road that the community has taken great care to grow over many years.
Well the local government feels forced to have to rip them down because they don't/can't pay public liability insurance in case some random walks under a rotting tree (not that any actually were, it MIIIGGHHTTT happen one day you see) and gets hit on the head and decides it's the councils fault and attempts to sue the council.

This is a problem caused by 'artificial' socialism, destroying real socialism. This is what happens when you make rules for everything, trying to protect all the people. It ends up just sterilizing everything into death.

10:00pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5457 posts
I agree with your assessment in that capitalism is probably the better cultural system available to create fastest adaption. for the people that can afford it anyway.


I agree that most of the wealthy really dont care about it, they can afford whatever measures to isolate themselves from the problem. As usual, the people most impacted will be the poor.
Markets aren't really good at dealing with global problems, it's shuffled under the carpet for as long as possible. You also have said wealthy interests ensuring the narrative is manipulated (paid off climate science deniers) or the problem is downplayed, and investment is continually directed to fossil fuel industries.
Solar is getting cheaper, but it isn't happening fast enough. The markets need to be heavily regulated with carbon pricing, yesterday.
10:04pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2091 posts
F***, it's been a while since I've seen a bee...


Honey bees shut down over winter. They collect honey while there's flowers about when it's warm

Aussie native bees might be different as Australia doesn't have proper seasons. I think their honey pot is usually smaller too as winter isn't that long.




Vash.

Too much socialism creates problems, this you must understand. Public liability insurance is a problem caused by socialism. Having to protect everyone from the most retarded stuff because people seemingly can't be held responsible and accountable for their own safety.

No doubt you have heard of the situation with the Urban Food Street problem? Local government is ripping down the communities self-created fruit trees? Tree's that are essentially on the sides of the road that the community has taken great care to grow over many years.
Well the local government feels forced to have to rip them down because they don't/can't pay public liability insurance in case some random walks under a rotting tree (not that any actually were, it MIIIGGHHTTT happen one day you see) and gets hit on the head and decides it's the councils fault and attempts to sue the council.

This is a problem caused by 'artificial' socialism, destroying real socialism. This is what happens when you make rules for everything, trying to protect all the people. It ends up just sterilizing everything into death.



How the f*** is this socialism? Are the lockout laws socialism too? Just because it is something the state is doing doesn't make it socialism.
10:37am 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2646 posts
I agree that most of the wealthy really dont care about it, they can afford whatever measures to isolate themselves from the problem


Imma leave this here.
07:06pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25920 posts
Hmmm yes a mere smattering of names compared to the countless number of people it would have required to organise the disinformation campaign run against climate change for what must be two decades now. Excellent point.
07:49pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5458 posts
And this proves it.
A handful of billionaires giving some money is the same as what Zizek says of people who consume Starbucks to make themselves feel good about doing something.
When in reality, its their lifestyle that is contributing the most, something most of them wont change, and therefor, they don't really care enough.
07:49pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2647 posts
Hmmm yes a mere smattering of names compared to the countless number of people it would have required to organise the disinformation campaign run against climate change for what must be two decades now. Excellent point.


The wealthiest names in the world Fpot. I don't quite recall Zuckerberg ever saying climate change was crap. Or larry page, or steve jobs, or warren buffet, or the rockefellers, or the english royal family. Or any given hollywood actor. I mean I know climate change in hollywood is just dogs***, they all think its crap.

But no maybe you have a point, must be those rich bastards.

And this proves it.


You almost certainly fall in the 10% they are talking about Vash.
08:38pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25921 posts
Even if you named 1000 wealthy people who accept the reality of climate change you still wouldn't have a point. The incredibly persuasive campaign which is so successful and widespread that even the POTUS can endorse it - where do you think it came from?
08:50pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2648 posts
Rich people just generally Fpot? Is climate denial a function of wealth or is something else at play do you think?
08:51pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18404 posts

Honey bees shut down over winter. They collect honey while there's flowers about when it's warm


I haven't seen a Honey Bee in well over a year. I have to watch out for them because their stings make me swell up good. It was pretty special to see one though, as they are getting harder and harder to come across. I remember as a kid they used to be everywhere (so it seemed anyway).

I haven't seen native bees for quite some time either :(
09:00pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25922 posts
Rich people just generally Fpot? Is climate denial a function of wealth or is something else at play do you think?
The only reason to instigate it would be to protect your own wealth from the sacrifices that needed to be made. There is of course an army of numpties tagging along for various reasons, the primary one being that they're dumb c****.
09:06pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5459 posts
Wealthy people utilise their wealth PP. (Private jets, mansions, consumption) They will throw a small amount of their total wealth at a problem to feel less guilty, and ensure the population thinks they're doing something.
While someone like me, can manage my footprint and lower it drastically, without being tempted at mindless consumption, that excessive wealth can tempt you to do.
Do you think the wealthy will give up their yachts and private jets for climate change?
09:07pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2649 posts
The rockerfellers are oil money fpot, the oldest oil money.

But what if I can name millions of people fpot?

polling on climate change action in Australia is consistently in the mid-seventies. The average wage in Australia is about 80k. To be in the top 1% incomes globally you need to have an income of around 40k AUD. that means there are millions of people who are wealthy by any reasonable standard who think climate change is real and want something done about it.

In fact action on climate change is predominately a 1st world preoccupation. You are not going to find a Bangladeshi beggar who gives a f***.

Most of the Ivy League schools in the states (60k+ a year tuition) consider climate denial a "microaggression".

There is a strong case to be made that caring about climate change is a strong indicator of wealth Fpot.
09:15pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5460 posts
You are not going to find a Bangladeshi beggar who gives a f***.


As usual, you'd be wrong. The poorest will be the most affected, and they are calling for the west to do more, and right now. Their entire livelihoods will be destroyed, and they are very aware of this fact.
People may express they're for fighting climate change, but when push comes to shove, they're doing f*** all about it. (probably you included)
09:26pm 06/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12830 posts
You just dont see what it is do you PP even when they spell it out to you.

09:45pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25923 posts
Yeah well that's great that the truth is finally prevailing. Except it's far too late because of the disinformation campaign created by people solely so they could make more money.
09:50pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2650 posts
As usual, you'd be wrong.


You could vote for trump to radicalize the moderates vash.

Yeah well that's great that the truth is finally prevailing. Except it's far too late because of the disinformation campaign created by people solely so they could make more money.

So you're willing to admit that wealth isn't the driver of climate denial now. Well I'm glad you could do a 180 and come with me on that fpot. It's like we're skipping hand in hand in a meadow of daffodils.
09:55pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2092 posts


I haven't seen a Honey Bee in well over a year. I have to watch out for them because their stings make me swell up good. It was pretty special to see one though, as they are getting harder and harder to come across. I remember as a kid they used to be everywhere (so it seemed anyway).

I haven't seen native bees for quite some time either :(


Man look up stuff you can plant in your backyard to encourage native bees, they are stingless!
There's a whole lot of community driven stuff going on to encourage the native bees down here.
10:59pm 06/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39066 posts
Man look up stuff you can plant in your backyard to encourage native bees, they are stingless!
There's a whole lot of community driven stuff going on to encourage the native bees down here.
What are the native bees called, do you know (like their species name)? Do they do honey and other normal bee stuff? I'm vaguely interested in doing bee stuff when I get back to Aus; I have some friends that have been doing it and it sounds cool.
11:48pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25924 posts
There are over 1500 different species apparently - http://www.aussiebee.com.au/faq.html
12:55am 07/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40663 posts
my honey growing friends tell me all the bees moved to china to s*** on the australian honey industry.
06:53am 07/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25926 posts
To the Bee Mobile!
08:44am 07/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2093 posts
Probably take a bee keeping day course when you're back, there's probably a local species you should get which is suitable for your area. I think the native bees don't produce as much, but it's enough for a family. You can't take all their honey as they use it to survive when it gets cold.

To the Bee Mobile!

Literally this!

Friends were telling me about their bees and how you have to go around to catch a colony when they're on the swarm. Sounds pretty fun!
09:38am 07/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12831 posts
Make The Planet Great Again

10:43pm 07/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5461 posts

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/united-nations-world-health-organisation-drugs-decriminalised-a7818726.html

The United Nations and World Health Organisation have issued a call for drugs to be decriminalised. Buried in a joint release on ending healthcare discrimination, the organisations called for the “reviewing and repealing punitive laws that have been proven to have negative health outcomes†by member states.


Finally, progress on the war on drugs.
07:17pm 08/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5462 posts
09:52pm 08/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2098 posts
01:49pm 09/07/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
816 posts
haha
04:43pm 09/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25930 posts
Well I guess this whole Russia thing turned out to be nothing but a witch hunt.

Spoiler:
lol
01:17pm 12/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21299 posts
Spoiler:
lol
02:18pm 12/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12838 posts
Lets see if Sean Hannity can sort out the ingredients out of this new Nothing Burger™

“So, from looking at the facts,” Hannity stated, “a friend of the Trumps offered to coordinate a meeting to share opposition research on Hillary Clinton, which Donald Trump Jr. agreed to. Nothing came of it because there was no information exchanged and it ended there.”


MMmmm its clearly got a delicious Putin Pattie in the centre and its filled with yummy KGB sauce.

“You have zero credibility left. You have been caught time and time again spreading fake news stories. You’ll be critical of all of my interviews. And you’ve carried out your personal attacks against the president, against his family, and against anybody that dares to be associated with the president… We have an information crisis. Overpaid, lazy, rigid, leftwing ideologues, but that’s for another night.”


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/hannity-lectures-hysterical-media-he-knows-is-watching-before-showing-interview-with-trump-jr/

Trump is President, The Democrats lost the Election because of stupid Identity Politics, Stupid Global Warming policies, wouldnt listen to Voters, and told everyone who didnt get on board the Clinton Foundation were a basket of Deplorables.

Just a bunch of sore Losers.
Like NSW fans will be tonight.
WAHAHHHHAHH Cameron Smith was the Ref
Trump is controlled by Putin
Earth is going to turn into Venus

TRAIN WRECKS OF HUMANITY


03:39pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5464 posts
Faceman is the embodiment of why humanity is doomed.

http://i.imgur.com/URBoYa4.jpg
05:34pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2651 posts
Well I guess this whole Russia thing turned out to be nothing but a witch hunt.


Yes by talking with any Russian at all regardless of if they work for the Kremlin Trump colluded with "Russia".

You've confused the smoking gun with a water pistol full of pee.
06:17pm 12/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25931 posts
Chief defender of the Faith chimes in.
06:45pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2652 posts
Pointing out a meeting in which no information changed hands with someone who doesn't work for the Kremlin isn't exactly the pointy end, is hardly "faith" fpot.

Trump's kid met with a Russian once seems a step down from Trump is in Putin's pocket.

Where did you get your skepticism gland removed, your guy is really good.
08:51pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5465 posts
Where is your skepticism of Trump PP my boy?
09:03pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2653 posts
Where is your skepticism of Trump PP my boy?


Why don't you vote for him to radicalize the moderates mah boi. Go read some Marx.
09:10pm 12/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7670 posts
Faceman is embodiment of why humanity is doomed.


Vash you sound like you are on your way to being a Nihilist
11:13pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5466 posts


Vash you sound like you are on your way to being a Nihilist


Indeed. Though i'm not a Nihilist, it doesn't take much thinking to eventually lead yourself to that point.
Firstly, look at the evidence of climate change, then look at the worst case scenario of the effect of climate change, and then look at what the republican party does, and finally, people like Faceman & PP thinking it's no big deal.
11:22pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18406 posts
Decided to buy drugs from a drug dealer. When I got there, she wasn't selling any of the particular drugs that I liked.
Therefor I acompletely absolved of any moral or ethical wrongdoing (phew, lucky she didn't have those crazy red pills on hand, that could have been embarrassing!).
12:12am 13/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12841 posts
VAsh, what was the percentage of Climate Change Scientists, who believe in their Climate Change Science, who believed Hillary Clinton would become President ?
Would it have been very close to 100% ?
01:43am 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2654 posts
Decided to buy drugs from a drug dealer. When I got there, she wasn't selling any of the particular drugs that I liked.
Therefor I acompletely absolved of any moral or ethical wrongdoing


A relation of mine decided to buy some drugs from a drug dealer without my knowledge. When he got there, she wasn't a drug dealer and didn't have any drugs. Therefore I have not committed an impeachable crime.

I thought I'd clean that analogy up for you toll. You seem to have skipped over some important detail.

people like Faceman & PP thinking it's no big deal.


Difficult to take that seriously when you say voting for trump will help to form a left wing movement that will address it.
06:59am 13/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18407 posts
The point still stands.
08:34am 13/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39069 posts
VAsh, what was the percentage of Climate Change Scientists, who believe in their Climate Change Science, who believed Hillary Clinton would become President ?
Would it have been very close to 100% ?
looking forward to seeing where this is going
05:49pm 13/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2099 posts
looking forward to seeing where this is going

Do you enjoy discussion about correlation equalling causation?
06:43pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25932 posts
Except it's not just a relation, it's an employee. And they weren't buying drugs, they were obtaining dirt on a political opponent in the US Presidential Election. I have a sneaking suspicion this dirt wasn't just offered for free. It was either paid for with money or something else. Apparently the person he met with was a lawyer, obviously working on behalf of someone. Either a Russian business person or someone in the government. Both are just as bad.

Kind of funny how you get all defensive and frothy when someone makes the mere suggestion that the ongoing Russia thing might be more than just a witch hunt.
08:17pm 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2655 posts
yes fpot you've rumbled me, so frothy.

All the parties at the meeting confirm nothing happened, and nobody can provide information showing that testimony to be inaccurate fpot.

There is still nothing substantive in the Russian story.

There is no law against digging up dirt on political opponents, and it is certainly not grounds for impeachment when the president had no knowledge.

I have a sneaking suspicion this dirt wasn't just offered for free. It was either paid for with money or something else. Apparently the person he met with was a lawyer, obviously working on behalf of someone. Either a Russian business person or someone in the government.


someone may or may not have provided dirt and may or may not have been paid maybe with money but maybe not through a lawyer who may have been their in her own capacity but may have been working for a business person or a government or neither.

Gotcha.
09:30pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25933 posts
I like how you've taken what I've written and tried to muddle it up when it's really quite clear what the implications are.

Glad to hear that all of the accused have confirmed nothing happened though. Phew, what a load off! Also great to hear that known truth teller and paragon of humanity President Trump also had no knowledge. Guess we can close the book on this one.
09:44pm 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2656 posts
Yeah the implications based you your speculation fpot. I know what the implication is. the *facts* don't support it.

Glad to hear that all of the accused have confirmed nothing happened though.

you missed a bit

and nobody can provide information showing that testimony to be inaccurate fpot.


Nobody can say:
- what the dirt was (and the accused claims there was none)
- what the pay off was (and again there no proof there was any)
- what the relationship between the lawyer and the Russian government is.

So other then the fact that she is Russian, the link to a vast Putin conspiracy is tenuous.

Paying a foreigner to dig up dirt on an opponent is legal fpot.

The claim isn't some arbitrary Russian was paid for dirt on Hilary. The claim is Donald Trump the president entered into an agreement with Putin to undermine american democracy. You've got a few gaps to fill in.
09:51pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25934 posts
I don't, the massive team of investigators currently investigating do. You know, the one headed by the new guy after Trump fired the last person.

And I know your tactic is to blow things up and make it seem as though the person you're arguing with is making wild claims, but all I'm saying is the current investigation is no witch hunt. From what I can see there are legitimate grounds for an investigation. Speculation is all that exists at the moment. Even if facts did exist, they aren't really relevant to the Trump administration who either just make them up or ignore them as required.
10:07pm 13/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21303 posts
come on PP stop being a lawyer and use some common sense
09:36am 14/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2657 posts
but all I'm saying is the current investigation is no witch hunt.


And all I'm saying is that you are plainly saying a lot more then that. An investigation isn't an indictment, isn't a criminal conviction nor an impeachment.

come on PP stop being a lawyer and use some common sense


The vast majority of this interest in this story is that it casts doubt over the legitimacy of the election (and considering that was almost certainly Putin's intention, it is no small irony that folks are eager to dog-pile, a clever man might see an uncomfortable question there), and could expose trump to impeachment proceedings.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Russia had no influence over the election or didn't try to influence it. The question that everyone is keen to imply a bad answer to is did Trump procure it?

Nothing I have seen comes close to establishing that. the brute fact is Putin has an interest in casting doubt over US democracy whether trump ran or not (in payback for the scrutiny the US rightly levies his way). In the end the most damaging incident came from Comey if you'll recall, by announcing he was reopening the investigation into Clinton's emails in the final week of the campaign, no Russians needed. While fpot is talking about sacking Comey, it is important to note that the *vast majority* of democrats were calling for him to be sacked *literally the day before*.

*The closest* anyone has come to showing Trump procured Russian hacking, is an underling meeting with a Russian national in which nobody can say if information changed hands, money changed hands, or if the the lawyers connections to Russia run any deeper than being a Russian national.

It's not clear that is even a crime, much less proof positive trump entered an agreement with Putin (or some other suitably highly ranked Russian official) to hack the DNC.

With that said, it is clearly deeply inappropriate to be taking meetings of that kind, and the emails certainly read pretty badly.

But until someone can offer something more then that, the odds of establishing Trump procured Russian hackers remains incredibly low, and the odds of impeachment are practically zero.
07:00pm 14/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5467 posts

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-it-too-much-to-ask-that-our-own-head-of-state-be-exclusively-devoted-to-us-20170714-gxbq2n.html

This article states a good point. Why should Ludlam resign when our head of state is almost 100 percent english?
He'll be missed. One of the few politicans in our Government to keep em' honest.
Another reason everyone should vote green, is that it's one of the few parties that understand the need to fight corruption with a federal ICAC.
12:44am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18408 posts

“If you can't see through that [border] wall — so it could be a steel wall with openings, but you have to have openings because you have to see what's on the other side of the wall,” the president said, according to the White House travel pool. “I’ll give you an example: As horrible as it sounds, when they throw the large sacks of drugs over, and if you have people on the other side of the wall, you don't see them—they hit you on the head with 60 pounds of stuff? It’s over. As crazy as that sounds, you need transparency through that wall. But we have some incredible designs.”


You really think this guy is not deluded in some way? He thinks stuff like this, and it's in a serious manner. Unless he is just a massive troll, like the best troll that lived ever. The greatest Troll. Greater than than any other troll ever to have lived. So great and so intelligent in fact, that how could he not be the greatest troll.
09:25am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18409 posts
I agree with PP on that front.
There seems to be little point in carrying on about Russia changing the election outcome. Particularly when you factor in everything else that influences election outcomes such as Mass Media, 'leaked' reports, etc and the way people use that to try influence the minds of others. All these negative, fear based tactics predominate elections. Potential Russian hacking (or whatever they want to call it) is just another story.

If there was truly evidence of hacking surely it would have been released. The best I've seen is breached access to a number of election systems with no evidence of vote changes, etc.

The Trump business is astoundingly massive, he is going to have conflicts of interest and from everything we've seen about his character (including 'autobiography The Art Of The Deal, remember Trump claimed he wrote that..) he is going to do whatever the f*** he wants.
The people pretty much brought this upon themselves. That's how voting works.
If people question the validity of the election, then perhaps the system should be targeted and not the current president. Really, investigating the election and going through the process of removing him if clear evidence was found would probably take more than 4 years anyway with the speed these things tend to go at ..

What a ramble. All over the shop. That's how you do political debates :D
09:40am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18410 posts
Oh also,

I had previously stated that there was potential for a significant mental breakdown by Trump and an extremely dangerous lashing out by him in whatever capacity he could manage (being Commander in Chief of the most powerful army the world has ever seen ..). This would likely be triggered by repeated assault on his ego, irrefutable evidence of his failures that even he couldn't delude himself into not seeing.

I admit, I underestimated his astounding ability of self-delusion. Just how remarkable he is at warping his perception to see himself as not failing, at anything. It seems he will very likely end his presidential stint truly believing he did an outstanding job at being President, likely believing he has been the best President America has ever had.
His strategy to label news that points out his failures as 'Fake News' gives his mind a great deal of mental protection against facing his delusions .. as the 'evidence' of his failures after all is .. fake.
No amount of polling, prominent people pointing out is failures, clear evidence of his extremely low ratings (like crowd turn-outs, etc) .. will get through .. it's all fake in his mind.
Well played Trump, hopefully it will keep you from totally losing your mind whilst having Presidential Powers.
09:49am 15/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39071 posts
There seems to be little point in carrying on about Russia changing the election outcome.
I think it's extremely important /for the future/. If all it takes to swing an election one way or the other is for another nation state to spend a few bucks on Twitter trolls, we need to know about it and patch this bug in democracy.

More importantly it serves as a strong reminder that we need to make sure our voting systems are tamper resistant - and for the moment that means doing it on paper.
05:58pm 15/07/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4026 posts
Potential Russian hacking (or whatever they want to call it) is just another story.

If there was truly evidence of hacking surely it would have been released. The best I've seen is breached access to a number of election systems with no evidence of vote changes, etc.
wtf? The CIA have said that Russia had tried to directly hack the election and that Putin was either involved or at the very least aware of the fact. How is that any different than any other direct attack upon a country?

If you haven't been paying attention, the people in charge of the servers that handle the election were mailed with very official looking emails laced with malware that came from Russia. No they didn't succeed in getting access to the servers and violating the election results but it is 100% an example of shots fired directly at the US from Russia and people seem to be able to completely rationalize it away because it wasn't a conventional method of warfare.

It's a direct attack on US democracy and everyone should be freaked out by it.
12:46am 16/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25938 posts
In non-Trump news it was announced today that the military may be used in the event of a terrorist incident. Here's a picture of some soldiers posing for the announcement.

https://image.ibb.co/hrgU0F/military_police.jpg
temporary image host


Is that supposed to be impressive or something?

Is this all coming from the police failure at the Lindt Cafe? Seems heavy handed to me. I remember my older brother asking me why they didn't just send the SAS in to storm the building and I said the military are more about kill the enemy at all costs whereas the police are trained to rescue innocents and arrest the assailant. No idea whether that's even true or not but made sense to me at the time.

Now my older brother is completely apolitical so I didn't bother explaining how one of great lessons of history is to never deploy a nation's military against its own citizens unless it's absolutely necessary. What constitutes absolutely necessary is highly arguable, but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that one siege by an unconnected terrorist would be grounds. It will be interesting to see when something does inevitably happen just how keen the government will be to deploy troops, and how much they'll f*** the dog with confirmed muppet Dutton in charge of them.
09:21pm 17/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5468 posts
It's pretty common when a Government is failing horribly they start pushing the national security buttons, and ramping up the terrorist threat rhetoric at the same time.
Let's see what other laws they come up with to restrict our freedom & privacy, handing further success to terrorism.
10:05pm 17/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12849 posts
It all makes sense now, why the greens always seem to be so un-Australian...
Most of them arent.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/07/18/13/16/queensland-greens-senator-larissa-waters-expected-to-resign

I agree Vash, Turnbull is trying to look like hes a man of action.
I noticed he didnt once mention Islamic Terrorism.
But most insiders know this is a cynical attempt to give Dutton some power and prevent him from replacing Mr Magoo.

The Coalition are a rabble
the greens are a rabble
and Labor ? well Turnbull stole all their Policies.

What a disgrace our Parliament is.


03:26pm 18/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
4138 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: genuinely embarrassing
Send Private Message
07:22pm 18/07/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16766 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.
07:10am 19/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7675 posts
translation: Senator known for breast feeding in parliament has been dismissed.

sounds a bit dull, so I spruced it up with a bit of boganese - purely for comedy reasons.

Well that's my case and I'm sticking to it.
08:01am 19/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39077 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.
hmm, I think there's a big difference between the militarisation of police (which I agree is generally terrible) and adding soldiers into the local law enforcement routine - which may be terrible but I'm not quite sure.

The reason I'm not sure it's terrible is precisely because I'd rather the police /not/ be militarised. So when dealing with a military-level threat it makes more sense (to me anyway) to bring in specially trained forces from the military with their military grade weapons and stuff. Rather than giving the police tanks and assault rifles and grenades.

HOWEVER

It's important to remember that we have had zero incidents in Australia (or here in the UK) that require even the slightest departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Pretending that there is some sort of secret army of well-armed terrorists that require an SAS level response is terror theatre that, as with almost everything else from the government in the last few years, makes me embarrassed to be Australian.

(It is believed that the UK SAS have a squad based in London ready to be deployed in the event of a serious incident. They were allegedly deployed by chopper after the London Bridge one a couple months ago but they arrived well after the regular police - who turned up in like seven minutes and resolved the situation immediately, like they did at Westminster. )

To me this looks exactly like a case of "we need to be seen to be doing something, so let's do something"
06:05pm 19/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2102 posts
08:35pm 19/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25939 posts
The good thing is they haven't received the money yet. If they do, then they'll pretty much have no choice but to spend it on its intended purpose which seems like a good thing to me. No way would that have happened if a light wasn't shone on this story.
08:39pm 19/07/17 Permalink
shody
Brisbane, Queensland
92 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.


Just on this note, has anyone else noticed how police have gone from wearing light blue shirts with a gun on their belt, to dark blue shirts with vests full of things that look like they'll hurt you?

It's been a slow transition over probably 5+ years, but they definitely look a lot more like military than they used to.

There are still some in the light blue, so it might just be a distinguishing uniform for types of police or something, but they certainly don't look as approachable in the dark get up.
06:41am 20/07/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6602 posts
It's important to remember that we have had zero incidents in Australia (or here in the UK) that require even the slightest departures from the current means the police have at their disposal.


The Coroner report into the Sydney siege very heavily suggested a few departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Including the assistance (including equipment if required) from the ADF.
07:32am 20/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2659 posts
yeah, I would wait to see exactly what they are proposing to do in respect of the adf and the police. I've read somewhere that the london bridge attack being put down so quickly was actually a result of military tactical training (notwithstanding no SAS people were actually deployed). With that said I'm pretty sure the coroner's report also mentioned an unclear leadership structure in there somewhere. There is some irony in attempting to solve that by creating another agency.

Mixing ASIO with the immigration department seems like it warrants raising an eyebrow. This will almost certainly create a broader range of issues/topics that get caught up in ASIO's ability to make things secret.

Boarder force is hardly the gold standard of transparency as it is.
06:37pm 20/07/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3293 posts
London's pretty used to and well prepared now, for these kinds of things I think. The 8 minute wrap time on the London Bridge incident was impressive I thought. Although bear in mind they did shoot one civilian accidentally.
07:02pm 20/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39080 posts
The Coroner report into the Sydney siege very heavily suggested a few departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Including the assistance (including equipment if required) from the ADF.
I guess I am assuming the "current means" includes the ability to deal with random one off hostage taking f***wits.

But that might just be based on watching too many movies.
07:05pm 20/07/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9463 posts
I guess I am assuming the "current means" includes the ability to deal with random one off hostage taking f***wits.

But that might just be based on watching too many movies.


At first glance the response in the report seems absurd - "Militarization of what should be a police operation? That's insane!"

But then you have to realise that here in Australia the reality is that we have so few of these incidents of such severity that in fact maybe it actually might make sense that those severe incidents, when we have them happen infrequently, actually do get handled by a group trained to handle much more intense situations - even though what we saw here is nothing compared to what you might see from... well, a movie really. But on the surface it sounds like a bad idea, it may - just maybe - have some merit to it if grounded by adequate rules.
08:09pm 20/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21310 posts
Donald sure seems to be going into melt down on twitter over this big 'nothing' russian investigation
08:34am 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25941 posts
It's glorious because not only is it really funny right now it will still be there when all the s*** finally unfolds and I have a very good feeling it's hilarity will only increase in value.
08:37am 23/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7676 posts
ha ha

10:25am 23/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2660 posts
I just want you to be ready fpot when, probably years from now, no definitive link is ever established. It's really going to make you want to call people nazis.
02:00pm 23/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2103 posts
PP, the true believer.

How rattled must a president be that he's talking pardons?
02:49pm 23/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21312 posts
Yeah it is interesting why he would be talking about presidential pardons
05:46pm 23/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2661 posts
Probably to pardon someone of a crime. Which crime seems to be the important bit.
06:27pm 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25942 posts
hehe, poor old PP gets upset when people make fun of his main man Donald Trump.
07:58pm 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25943 posts
Today the President of The United States of America attacked the free press in front of a group of boy scouts.
07:21pm 25/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5470 posts
And also today, a LNP MP quits cabinet because he may hold dual citizenship. Suddenly most of the conservatives nuggets are showing up saying 'he didn't know'
oh, what about the two Green senators, my dearies?
07:42pm 25/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25944 posts
Psychiatry group tells members they can defy ‘Goldwater rule’ and comment on Trump’s mental healthI wonder if others follow suit?

I know the Goldwater Law is real important and all, but is it more important than properly identifying a mentally ill person in an immense seat of power so some sort of mitigation plan can occur?
11:53pm 25/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2107 posts
11:12am 26/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2108 posts
Is facey british because his dad is?

https://twitter.com/i/moments/890019134045511680

Senator Malcolm Roberts has refused to provide evidence he has renounced his British citizenship following a BuzzFeed report showing he had previously travelled on a UK passport.


How many MPs are foreign spies?
08:13pm 26/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5471 posts
Senator Matthew Canavan's account of unwittingly becoming a dual citizen doesn't add up. A visa procurement associate at one of Italy’s largest immigration law firms said there was no way parents could apply for citizenship on behalf of their adult children. Every application – in Italy or abroad – must be carried out in person.


Slimey & the reptile trying to hold onto power kicking & screaming. The Greens senators quit on the spot with dignity.
10:40am 27/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25945 posts
06:42pm 27/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12856 posts
I am a Transgender Denier.
But willing to be convinced by Falsifiable Evidence.

The War on Christmas..
Now you cant say Jesus name in the playground but the Tuckshop is Halal.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/no-christ-in-christmas-next-school-jesus-ban-spark/3205543/


can we have a code or some post thing where we can post content from FaceBook ?
I did figure it out a while back but I cant rem the code.




12:41pm 28/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25947 posts
Today in a speech given to law enforcement people, the President of The United States of America endorsed police brutality.
05:26pm 29/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7679 posts
All religions and all ideologies pretending to be religions should be banned from schools. time for humanity to step out of the cave.
05:43pm 29/07/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4610 posts
JK Rowling's misuse of "whom" in that quote distracts me from the overall point
04:27pm 30/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2109 posts

The War on Christmas..
Now you cant say Jesus name in the playground but the Tuckshop is Halal.

We should be celebrating the true origins of Christmas which are the solstice and be worshiping the sun god Sol.

Why has Sol been banned in classrooms? Bloody lefty loons have gone too far this time!
06:59pm 30/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25952 posts
Trump removes Anthony Scaramucci as White House communications director

There really are no words to describe the s*** f*** that is going on that aren't tired and stringy at this point so how about we all chuckle quietly to ourselves while shaking our heads instead.

edit: and after days of this terrorist bulls***, we finally find out their cunning plan - to smuggle a meat grinder onto a flight in carry on luggage. Thank god that plot was foiled!
03:03pm 01/08/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4613 posts
yeah I'd have been pretty embarrassed to die in a meat grinder based attack

mortified even
06:19pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25953 posts
Flights grounded by improvised meat grinder.
06:35pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2663 posts
Meat grinder containing a bomb while in communication with Syrian bomb makers by their own admission.

don't sweat the small stuff bro
07:31pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25954 posts
A giant hunk of metal with weird stuff inside and a plan to get it on a flight via carry on luggage is the work of a seasoned professional and is surely worth the days of 'TERRORIST SHOCK! AUSTRALIAN POLICE CRACK IMMINENT TERRORIST PLOT' with the PM thanking his lucky stars that these cunning geniuses were caught.

For someone who is so critical of news agencies when they're speaking badly about your hero and prophet you seem awfully lax about this giant beat up.

edit: I don't reckon a white guy could get a meat grinder onto a plane without it being looked at even if it was in their check-in luggage.
07:45pm 01/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39097 posts
As usual the best part of the Mooch debacle is the memes. I lost the tweet I saw it in but there was one this morning saying how it was pretty harsh firing someone with boneitis.
08:01pm 01/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40721 posts
pretty sure old mate terrorist had connections with airlines, so it wasnt going through the front door*


*i love news.com.au and its one of my main sources of news.
08:11pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25955 posts
My only regret is that I have joined the Trump administration.

edit: hey don't get me wrong, newsworthy for sure. But the cynic in me just can't help but think that the whole thing has been given a nudge, especially with the recent announcement of Dutton's Home Affairs Ministry.
08:13pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2664 posts
For someone who is so critical of news agencies when they're speaking badly about your hero and prophet you seem awfully lax about this giant beat up.


I am critical of bald faced naked partisanship in newspapers. This is radically different, every newspaper in the country is reporting basically the same facts. The police have brought their case before the court and the court have granted orders. But clutch those straws fpot.

But the cynic in me just can't help but think that the whole thing has been given a nudge, especially with the recent announcement of Dutton's Home Affairs Ministry.


And there it is. You even managed to get race into the bargain. There is a nazi reference lurking out there buddy. I want to believe.
09:29pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25957 posts
heh and there what is? That an unpopular government would promote a security scare to try and gain popularity? I don't think they even bother printing that one in the playbook anymore.

Not quite sure how that amounts to race, but since I've already been penalised for it, I might just add that it also makes for a nice distraction from the absolute clusterf*** that's occurring on Manus right now.
10:17pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2665 posts
Not quite sure how that amounts to race, but since I've already been penalised for it,


Lets see if we can get this dog to leap a little higher for you oh master of cynical wisdom.

I don't reckon a white guy
That an unpopular government would promote a security scare to try and gain popularity?


It could be that. Or it could be exactly as it seems and a bunch of radical Islamists were trying to blow up a plane. It'd only be the thousandth time since 9/11.

for a nice distraction from the absolute clusterf*** that's occurring on Manus right now.


Link Manus to race for us please? And remind us how prominent a story it was for the last year? Or to state in a way that the obvious point doesn't escape you, what need has the government of a distraction from Manus island right now?

Do they not need a distraction from Nauru? Or did your failure to mention it kind of demonstrate my point?
07:36am 02/08/17 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1559 posts
03:03pm 03/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40724 posts
wow, Pisasale going down like a sack of s***.

07:37pm 03/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7683 posts
“If you’re not living in Sydney then you’re camping out” Paul Keating.
Hmmm

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/08/tent-city-shines-light-sydneys-housing-crisis/
08:33pm 03/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2117 posts
Love it how the premier being made to feel uncomfortable. Gov has so many things it could do for affordable housing but it just wants the mayor to move them on.

Typical "let them eat cake" from the ruling class..
08:59am 04/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21321 posts
wow, Pisasale going down like a sack of s***.


definitely isn't the only mayor up to no good

but i think he got a little bit too loosey goosey with it
09:30am 04/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5474 posts
Love it how the premier being made to feel uncomfortable. Gov has so many things it could do for affordable housing but it just wants the mayor to move them on.

Typical "let them eat cake" from the ruling class..


And Abbott showing those true Catholic values by saying the homeless should be moved on with 'great vigour if necessary'
02:26pm 04/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25959 posts
That Trump/Turnbull transcript is simply extraordinary.
09:29pm 04/08/17 Permalink
taggs
6501 posts
I'm generally not a fan of turnbull but I thought he did a great job on that call based on the transcript.
09:35pm 04/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25960 posts
Yeah he's a pro. Might just be that he was juxtaposed next to a blithering idiot.

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel and describing them as product was callous as f***, though.
09:41pm 04/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2666 posts
Guys.

Last week.

The PRESIDENT of the United States. In the White house. In America. Said "Paddy Wagon".

I want you all to know help is available in this difficult time. We've set up a hotline to help you talk through any emotions you maybe feeling at this time.

I only bring it up because the same paper that reported this leaked the phone call transcript. I implacably trust an outlet that is bringing the P R E S I D E N T to account on this heinous usage of "p***y wagon" not to abuse its trust in the release by anonymous white house workers of documents which are in no way whatsoever politically motivated and are definitely concerned citizens working to prevent the 4th Reich. The editorial standards at play that allowed this required expose on "p***y wagon" to be published ensure our trust in the washington post is well founded.
05:48pm 07/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39118 posts
Interesting read about (temporary?) decriminalisation of prostitution in one US state. The study they refer to for the article found: "Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009. "
07:37pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25964 posts
Chief Defender of the Faith.
07:39pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2667 posts
A chattel is moveable property. french term don't you know. associated with slavery.

How did Turnbull discuss the people as moveable *property*?

Then discuss "the faith" sweet cheeks.

Don't take your penis out if you don't have to fpot. It's rude.

He really did say "p***y wagon" fpot. I guess you're racist against Irish because you don't care.
07:47pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25965 posts
https://preview.ibb.co/d8Z3Ga/dumbshoes.png

Right there dumbshoes. Maybe learn to read or something, it really helps you not look like an idiot!

And a little bit of maybe it's YOU who is the real racist as well. He's on fire!

At least you're not bothering to pretend to be anything more than another alt-right dolt anymore. That was really painful to read.
08:06pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2668 posts
What's the product in that sentence fpot?

could it be passage to Australia? Or is it slaves?

alt-right dolt anymore.


LOL he is a NAZI.

You're a moron.

08:14pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25966 posts
The product are the people seeking political asylum into Australia.

This is your big chance to say, oops, I accidentally skipped over that bit and you're right, Turnbull did describe a bunch of people as product and that is perhaps a bad thing to do. This could indicate that somewhere there lurks a human being rather than some sort of alpha version Trump defense twitter bot (maybe he'll retweet you!)

But nope, just more of your stale bulls***. Keep it coming though, you're the only one left in the thread and hearing the wind whistle over the bottomless pit of your cognitive dissonance is one of the things that keep it interesting.
09:14pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2669 posts
The product are the people seeking political asylum into Australia.


Specifically, fpot ,for the class.

does this

seeking political asylum into Australia.


Require passage to Australia.

Are the people currently in detention actual slaves?

If you would like to talk about the human rights issues we can. but you need to cut the s*** (it doesn't involve slavery in any form, wanker). it is bulls*** hyperbole you are engaged in and nothing more. It hurts you, and worse hurts the people in detention, making these hysterical claims.
09:27pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25968 posts
In the english language words can mean more than one thing. To read chattel and attribute an anachronistic definition like you have isn't the smartest move. I personally would have gone with the definition that corresponds with how the word chattel is usually used in day to day language in the context that I used it. House ornaments, cheap plastic furniture and crockery are things usually described as chattel when I speak with people. Do you speak with people much Pete? Do you know how to use context clues when reading sentences Pete?
09:34pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25969 posts
Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect. They may stuff it with tissue paper before moving it to avoid breakage for example.

The Australian Government physically tortures their chattel and then leaves it to rot in the forest once it dies.

Manus Island asylum seeker's friends begged Australia for help before his death
09:48pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2670 posts
oh so chattel can definitely mean slave, and a bunch of things that definitely aren't slavery.

So I guess you mean they aren't slaves. Because nobody, ever, at any point has claimed those people as chattel.

You're just the kind of d******* who likes to be loose with their language to imply the worst of their opponent.

You're low rent fpot. but you think your revolting brand of 'empathy' makes you virtuous.

oh wow
Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


You're not even trying to be serious fpot. f*** off troll
09:51pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25970 posts
The expression 'to treat someone/thing like chattel' is so ridiculously common and so well understood that I am kind of shocked at how much you have f***ed it up. S***, I even admit I might be wrong about my definition of it, and when people say it they might have meant to treat people like slaves. It's basically a total cliche though, and for you to read it and go head first into some tangent about how I think asylum seekers are literal slaves (???) is really weird and I think someone might need to write some better code because this twitter bot seems a bit f***ed up.
10:02pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2671 posts
Oh so you're ignorant of the terms you use.

that's much better.

Chattel is a legal term for property fpot. human Chattel is the *definition* of slavery. if you're ignorant of this you're opinion is worth less than nothing on the subject (which is probably accurate). If you're not you're willfully misrepresenting the situation.

10:09pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25971 posts
When you hear someone say I am so hungry I could eat a horse, do you immediately start discussing the rather difficult logistics behind eating a horse at that time, and how better tasting and more easily obtainable food could be more easily located and prepared to satisfy their nutritional requirements? And if you do, and once it has been pointed out that this person in fact does not want to eat a horse, and was instead using exaggeration as a rhetorical device to more easily express their hunger in a way that may be more relatable to other people than starkly expressing it, do you then start trying to tell them that they're ignorant of the terms they use and deliberately misrepresenting the situation making their opinion worthless?
10:15pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2672 posts
Oh so you in no way meant to imply slavery by your "colloquial" use of chattel. Which also happens to be the standard usage of the word to imply slavery.

It's so obvious that's what you meant.

Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


Ok uncle tom.

10:19pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25972 posts
Why do you have the word colloquial in scare quotes? It's the only thing you've gotten right so far tonight.

And I have an autoplay blocker so all I am seeing is grey squares. I am sure the videos you're posting are all hilarious burns, though!
10:26pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2673 posts
Chattel means property fpot. nobody uses that word to mean oppressed generally.

Are gay people who can't get married "chattel"? are homeless people "chattel"

I bought a guy a hot chocolate today because it was cold. society has so chatteled him.

Do not pretend the use of that word is not intended to imply slavery. you can't seriously be arguing

Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


doesn't imply ownership in the sense of property.

So trog does train wreck of humanity apply yet?

And I have an autoplay blocker so all I am seeing is grey squares.


Thats a shame.
10:31pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25973 posts
Type 'treated like chattel' into google. Tell me what you see.
10:36pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2674 posts
Tell me "treated like chattel" doesn't imply slavery.

Plus first result.



Definition of chattel

1
: an item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (such as buildings) connected with real property

2
: slave, bondman slaveholders who were determined to hold on to their human chattel


I particularly like how it doesn't include general discomfort and is entirely about property. I'm so sorry I had your totally "legit" intentions wrong.

Dude you had that ass spanked. Again. You're an idiot.

*edit*
watch the videos.
*/edit*
10:39pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25974 posts
In the context I used it, clearly not.

Trump and Turnbull were negotiating a prisoner (that's what they are see, prisoners) exchange, the asylum seekers were bargaining chips in that negotiation, to treat them like chattel is to treat them like objects of little value in an effort to score political points, which is what was happening.

Now I'm getting a little self-conscious about this conversation. It's gone way longer than it should have and people are thinking we're crazy. But surely you get it now?
10:52pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2675 posts
Aww now you beaten the backpeddle proper starts.

No I dont get it fpot.

so you don't mean turnbull used them like property.

but you used a term which, according to the dictionary, means property, but you didn't mean that. You meant something else. The common usage of the word had no alignment with.

people might be embarrassed. you're the only dog that should feel shame.
10:58pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25975 posts
What I was hoping you'd see when you googled were the tens of thousands of examples of people using the expression in the exact same context that I did. Instead you saw the one definition and used it again to misrepresent what I said. The wind continues to whistle.
11:05pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2676 posts
You can hope all you want, that I'd take a blatantly naive view of your words.

What possible reason have you given for me to do that fpot?

You used the word. You defend it's usage.
11:11pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25976 posts
What possible reason have you given for me to do that fpot?
I think you made an honest mistake first up. Once it was pointed out instead of oops I made a mistake I get post after post of you doubling down trying to hide it rather than learning from it. I think you probably do this a lot which explains why you're a worthless alt-right s***heel.
11:16pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2677 posts
There is nothing to learn fpot.

You use the word Chattel. You claim you didn't mean slave. The ordinary meaning of the word in relation humans is slave. you gave no indication whatsoever you were using a special meaning.

LOL he is NAZI. Low rent b****.

You're f*****g pathetic.
11:21pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25977 posts
I honestly thought when I said all the horse stuff you'd either realise or at the very least stop posting and go on a shame break after losing an internet argument because from what I can see, it affects you so deeply you aren't even able to admit to a stranger that you have gotten something simple so plainly wrong. I'll try the horse thing again, but I'll PornoPete it up a bit for easier understanding.

John says he is so hungry he can eat a horse. Jane understands that John is hungry but that he doesn't literally want to eat a horse. John doesn't give any indication that he wasn't being literal, because Jane is familiar with the expression and understands what he means.

fpot says the Australian Government treat asylum seekers like chattel. forumguy understands that fpot is not trying to say a bunch of people who clearly aren't slaves in fact are. That is because he has read the transcript of the conversation fpot is referring to and is able to understand the context of words in a sentence.

You obviously weren't familiar with the expression, and so misunderstood what I meant. You are so afraid of admitting that you are wrong about something that you will write a whole bunch of posts containing nothing but bulls*** to stop yourself from doing so. And you call me pathetic?
11:31pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2678 posts
I'll try the horse thing again, but I'll PornoPete it up a bit for easier understanding.


You can't beat me fpot. You used the word to imply slavery. It was the obvious intention of your words.

The fact that you are trying to suggest that there is another ordinary meaning to what you said is pathetic.

Alt right is a losers argument.

You meant slave. You know you did.

The fact that it could possibly used (and utterly unnaturally) to mean people "generally deprived" (who nobody uses it to mean) notwithstanding.

You aren't righteous



watch the video
11:41pm 07/08/17 Permalink
chairumpire
Other International
1 posts
i do believe PP has articulated the minutiae of your leading alt right pointing there fpot, but it's time to chalk that one up to a lesson in revealing your embedded culturally arcane priorities as a belief or trained sentiment of that issue in fluency

it was a spirited and entertaining defense of the curl you were able to maintain there though, so yay for you
12:09am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2679 posts
livin la vida loca will suffice.
12:12am 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25978 posts
See this is the problem with trying to create some sort of pretext to your personality on an internet forum. You start off posting all normal and making the effort to listen and reply properly at first. Then you started going a bit weird. Heaps of spelling mistakes and stuff in your posts and a more aggressive tone as defending Trump got harder and harder. As his situation worsened so did you, becoming a bigger and bigger d*** as time goes by to the point where your posts are almost unrecognisable to when you first started posting in the politics thread. You know where you'll post something you think is some massive zinger and then just start quoting yourself again and again like your the Pope of Internet Posting Town.

And look where we are now. A full blown d******* so mentally fragile and pathetic you can't even admit to this one trivial thing. Bulls***ting all the way to market when you could've backed up all that hard work you did trying to convince people you were a normal guy with a simple hey never heard that expression before I understand what you mean now that you've explained it. That's all it would have taken, but you were incapable of doing so. You've proved honesty is completely out of bounds when it comes to what you write on here, so just ask yourself what being incapable of a thing like that says about you and try and learn from the answer that for your sake hopefully pops into your head.

edit: now I know having the last word allows yourself to be declared the winner and how that is a very important part of you feeling good, so go ahead and have it tonight. I am very interested in starting off the healing process for you.
12:18am 08/08/17 Permalink
chairumpire
Other International
2 posts
forget it he want's to play personality politics

he's probably a party donator

last edited by chairumpire at 00:36:21 08/Aug/17
12:29am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2680 posts
IF FPOT REPLIES TO THIS HE IS A C*** FOREVER.
12:46am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2682 posts
And look where we are now. A full blown d******* so mentally fragile and pathetic you can't even admit to this one trivial thing


Oh fpot. What a funny little guy you are. Its like a projectionathon.

The *ordinary meaning* of the word chattel in relation to humans is slave. You used the word to imply that Australia is engaged in slavery.

You even produced a screen cap to back your claim (that people were referred to as slaves), where the obvious meaning of the sentence is passage to Australia.

Now you've had your ass spanked so hard you've decided to play the man instead of the ball and you can't even do that convincingly.

You use low rent tactics which are transparent as f***. call me a NAZI call me racist. Call Australia racist.

It's funny because even your most articulate arguments are just straight foward ad hominems. At least I'll call you c*** straight to your face with out pretending its an argument. You are just a low rent dummy. But it is fun to taunt you. Look at how righteous you think you are.
10:02am 08/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21324 posts
see trump started his own propaganda news channel on facebook

lol
04:51pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25981 posts
Remember when us westerners used to laugh at those state run channels in the middle-east and other countries run by dictators? They seemed so weird and flagrantly transparent and I must admit back in the early 2000s when I first saw them I thought they may be some sort of US propaganda thing - look at how bad these countries are we must save them! Now the President of the United States has created one.
05:05pm 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2683 posts
I wonder if he considers it a chattel hey fpot?

CNN are saying its exactly like North Korea state television. That's pretty funny.

They seemed so weird and flagrantly transparent and I must admit back in the early 2000s when I first saw them I thought they may be some sort of US propaganda thing


What did you mean here fpot? That you thought that state television of *another* country was US propaganda?

Let me guess. as way of creating a pretext for invasion right?
05:12pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25982 posts
I had a second or two of disbelief that people could actually watch such complete and utter bulls*** and believe it. But I've never really been big on vast complicated conspiracies so it didn't take me long to realise that the US setting up some fake state run channel to gain a few supporters for an invasion didn't really make any sense at all. Thought that was all pretty clear in my original post but hey I don't mind explaining things for people.

Fast forward to now and the President of the United States has started his very own state run news network, and judging from some of the comments I have read on the youtube of it I just watched, people are actually praising it and are thankful that the truth is finally coming out. North Korea have a state run channel beaming out non-stop bulls*** propaganda to its citizens. The United States have a state run channel beaming out non-stop bulls*** propaganda to its citizens. The only difference I can see is that the people of NK are arguably the most oppressed in the world and due to the social conditioning that brings may be susceptible to believing it. The weak as piss yanks who lap this s*** up and believe it, what's their excuse?
05:21pm 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2684 posts
North Korea also bans all other television fpot, under penalty of death.

So there is a little bit of gap there.

I expect that the yanks who are watching it are lapping it up because CNN purports to be a news channel and likened it to DPKR news.

There is also the fact that large swathes of the mainstream press aren't even trying to give balanced coverage to trump.

Between his propaganda and CNN and WAPO's I expect you can cobble together something approximating the truth.
05:40pm 08/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39123 posts
ugh what a staggering waste of money. I am totally pro gay marriage (or perhaps more accurately, totally anti the government having any f*****g thing to do with it) but this seems Bad.
05:47pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1103 posts
ugh what a staggering waste of money. I am totally pro gay marriage (or perhaps more accurately, totally anti the government having any f*****g thing to do with it) but this seems Bad.


Even more bad if it turns out that some of the legal advice I'm seen floating around, about how the government can't hold such a plebiscite without a parliamentary vote authorising it, turns out to be true.

Then it becomes even more of a complete waste of money.

Just hold a vote in parliament already and legalise it.
09:23pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5476 posts
http://i.imgur.com/jHw3nrs.jpg

Pope nailing it as usual
09:46pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25984 posts
It must be easy to draw comics like this when you live in the future.
11:11pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40739 posts
things i didnt think id see on the internets today: a spirited multi post debate on the definition and uses of the word "chattel"
06:13am 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25985 posts
I imagined that the asylum seekers held in Manus were slaves all of a sudden, for some reason, and the millions of times chattel has been used in the same way I did all of a sudden didn't exist. I think that language singularity event may be over and it may be safe not to take words at their literal face value again.
01:21pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2685 posts
You literally said like property fpot. Repeatedly.

Then you said they were referred to as product in a laughablely tortured reading of the ordinary words in the sentence "we had deny the people smugglers of their product". Last I checked no-one has ever claimed people smugglers are producing refugees. Except you now, to try and worm out a retarded reading of a sentence.

I can't find a single definition of the word chattel that doesn't bring up slavery, or property. So stop pretending you're using a totally ordinary everyday usage of the word, when you say it doesn't imply slavery.

A chattel is property. this is the only meaning the word has ever or will ever have.

Humans who are property are slaves.

It isn't difficult.

The reason you used those words is to imply racism. It's basically your only trick.
07:04pm 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25986 posts
heh

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel and describing them as product was callous as f***, though.
There it is. My original throwaway comment where I used an extremely common expression to voice my displeasure at how asylum seekers are treated, as well as how I thought it was objectionable that Turnbull described people as product. Really simple stuff.

Then you make some pissweak attempt to throw water on the dumpster fire that is Trump which I find a little funny, so I sass you a bit over it. Then it begins, the great PornoPete meltdown where for some reason you seem to think I've decided the detainees have been turned into slaves, possibly by some sort of bizarro God Mother. At first I was proper confused until I realised you may not have heard the expression before, so I explain and well... it's all right there.

All those things you've accused others of - taking the first google result they find and running with it, not arguing in good faith, Dunning-Kruger effect. It's all you now bro! You are so deluded in your own ability you think you can never be wrong. You'll go to Cartmanesque levels of denial to try and keep that fantasy alive in your head. Your cards are marked - you're a fragile little s***head who can't admit he's wrong on the internet. Your sole purpose here is to scream and defend Trump and anything that goes against it is fake news or no big deal or whatever lie you decide to use.
08:57pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2686 posts
Turnbull. Didn't. Describe. People. As. Product.

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel


And this in no way implies slavery hey?

He is trading them like *word that literally means property* doesn't imply slavery. yeah ok.

When you can find me a quote in context where trading people like chattel doesn't mean slavery I'll admit I was wrong.

Every single example in that google search you linked to, all of them, are making an analogy with slavery.

He deplored the way players were treated like chattel on the one hand, deployed as seen fit, and children on the other, held to restrictive behavioral standard
Women are treated like chattel, not to mention the slave trade
OPSWAT - Overworked, underpaid, treated like chattel.
He treated his wife as little more than a chattel. goods and chattels


Shall I go on? or do you get the point yet? Treated like chattel, means slavery. And when people use it for non-slavery conditions, it is without exception a hyperbolic analogy to slavery.

You were very plainly trying to imply racism through an allusion to slavery fpot. because in your simple little world slavery is something white people do to black people.

You have one mode. Call something you disagree with racism or nazism.

you're a fragile little s***head who can't admit he's wrong on the internet.


haha. you can't even play the man well fpot. pathetic armchair psychoanalysis.
09:35pm 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25987 posts
Literally speechless. Undecided as of yet whether I should adopt you as my new Brool insult pinata or just add you to my ignore list like faceman. If you get a reply to the next dumb thing you say (after tonight because holy moly am I sick of this) you'll know what I've decided on.

edit: like, not only are you never wrong, you also think you get to decide what the words other people say mean. I'd ask you if you realised how narcissistic and d***ish that is, but you're obviously so far down your own a****** you probably can't even see it.
09:41pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2687 posts
When you can find me a quote in context where trading people like chattel doesn't mean slavery I'll admit I was wrong.


So that would be a no then would it fpot?

Insult pinta. That's a good one. I look forward to you calling me racist in a all new ways.

You pointed to list of usage of the term "like chattel" in which they were all making reference to slavery, but you didn't mean it that way and people generally don't use it to refer to slavery because reasons.

but before you go on your epic shutdown of calling me racist. Think on this. Do I defend trump or do I attack idiot breathless commentary on him?

You're pretty good at idiot breathless commentary. See if you can join the dots you low rent moron.

I know you read JK Rowling's twitter feed. You didn't mention the time last week she doctored footage to make it look like trump was mean to a disabled kid. Instead you got your panties in a scrunch over a phone call discussing a deal made with obama. A phone call we knew the content of six months ago I might add.

Did obama "treat them like chattel" or was it just an ordinary deal between allies?

And we get an endless stream of.

Guys. Today. The President. (insert thing fpot finds offensive, typically missing important context, but is actually not at all serious).

Trump has broken you and a great many other people fpot. The record speaks for itself.
06:57am 10/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40744 posts
oh goody, this is still going!
07:11am 10/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25990 posts

https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/north-korea-081017.html

The harsh rhetoric from Washington and Pyongyang during recent months has exacerbated an already confrontational relationship between our countries, and has probably eliminated any chance of good faith peace talks between the United States and North Korea. In addition to restraining the warlike rhetoric, our leaders need to encourage talks between North Korea and other countries, especially China and Russia. The recent UN Security Council unanimous vote for new sanctions suggests that these countries could help. In all cases, a nuclear exchange must be avoided. All parties must assure North Koreans they we will forego any military action against them if North Korea remains peaceful.
Remember when we had real presidents? It almost seems like a different world. Not a whisper of a nuclear threat since the end of the cold war, and just 202 days into Trump's administration the whispers have started again. That fire and fury thing would be laughable if you were unaware of its implications.
09:05pm 11/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5477 posts
But fpot, it's not at all a serious situation. All is well.

Trump has broken you and a great many other people fpot. The record speaks for itself.


Still waiting for that criticism. The many who criticise him & his decisions isn't Trump 'breaking a great many people' by the way.
If anything the record shows Trump is disapproved by much of his constituency, which democratically, means he's failing at the Presidency. The record speaks for itself.
09:40pm 11/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2688 posts
Guys, On the 21st of June.

The President lied. of the United States. Of America. He claimed Environmental laws encompass puddles, when they don't.

I know. I was literally shaking. I can't remember the last time a President raped my ears like this.

If you want to see a professional cuddler to help you through this difficult time, I know a guy.
08:51am 12/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2689 posts
Guys. Today. The President. (insert thing fpot finds offensive, typically missing important context, but is actually not at all serious).


Damn I'm good.

Not counting 25 years of diplomatic crises with NK, 15 years with Iran, and a war with Iraq over WMD including a "nuclear threat", Not a whisper of a nuclear threat since the end of the cold war,

fixed that there for you fpot.
03:32pm 12/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5479 posts
Asked how he would react if Ivanka posed for Playboy, Trump replied: "It would be really disappointing — not really — but it would depend on what's inside the magazine." "I don't think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her."


Such a man is really what we want as a leader of the free world. He's really sticking it to em'
We've really been broken by this guy. Shockingly.
09:12pm 12/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2124 posts
Guys, On the 21st of June.

The President lied. of the United States. Of America. He claimed Environmental laws encompass puddles, when they don't.

I know. I was literally shaking. I can't remember the last time a President raped my ears like this.

If you want to see a professional cuddler to help you through this difficult time, I know a guy.


Shorter PP: The media calling out a politician for lying is bad you guys.
01:39pm 13/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5481 posts
More right-wing violence today. This is getting out of hand.

http://i.imgur.com/UfoVUFk.jpg

Some Nationalist pages seem to be celebrating.
03:36pm 13/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2125 posts
More right-wing violence today. This is getting out of hand.

I think you mean terrorism.
04:37pm 13/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2690 posts
The media calling out a politician for lying is bad you guys.


Yes lying. that's what the media is calling out there. Every single one of those claims is debatable. All of them. But he was lying. about matters of high national importance. Strangely the only president in history the NYtimes has felt the need to create a day by day file on, including even the most trivial statements.
05:10pm 13/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39140 posts
I would be fascinated to see their Facebook pages evolve as they slowly learn freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences
07:57pm 13/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21330 posts
Pretty hard to condemn white supremacists and bigots when your whole political campaign was based on bigotry and racism 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
08:46am 14/08/17 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19120 posts
so barnaby joyce is a confirmed kiwi. bet he wont resign.
03:03pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10638 posts
LNP can't legalize gay marriage, it's so important we should all have a say.

Do I get a postal vote on North Korea as well?

But in saying that they aren't a legally elected government anymore.
05:32pm 14/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7695 posts
10:35pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5484 posts
Shorten beat Tones @ City 2 surf. Haha.
10:41pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40764 posts
wow, would not have expected that.

as terrible a person as tone is, he is fit as f***. well he used to be.

billy boy always looks terribad when he is running.
06:14am 15/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39143 posts
I thought the Charlottesville thing was bad but didn't realise it was this bad - HBO VICE reporting from the scene
12:16am 16/08/17 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4281 posts
hah wow that is some hate fueled s***
09:17am 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7696 posts
*lighten's the mood*

09:52am 16/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2128 posts
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHTp9M2V0AAKdPn.jpg

How dare the left get made at nazis and white supremacists.

More balanced reporting from teh Oz.
10:05am 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21334 posts
Trump back tracks on his 2 day late condemnation of the white supremacists and blames liberals lol

This racist behaviour poked its head out the day after trump won the election, if anyone remembers the multiple reports of islamists and even black people being harassed under the guise that 'this is trumps america now'

Trumps rhetoric through his election campaign attracts these minds of people, everyone f*****g knows it. The deployables.
10:24am 16/08/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4038 posts
So how is Barnaby Joyce not being stood down as Deputy PM when he may not even be a valid member of Parliament? Like I get letting it play out through the supreme court but surely he can't still be the Deputy PM during this whole issue.

And lol at the Libs trying to claim treason over some Labor staffers asking NZ pollies about Joyce's citizenship, they're not the ones harbouring a New Zealand SPY!!!
03:01pm 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7697 posts
This racist behaviour poked its head out the day after trump won the election, if anyone remembers the multiple reports of islamists and even black people being harassed under the guise that 'this is trumps america now'


Harrassing islamists (religious fascists) is not racist, as anyone from any racial background can submit to radical islam.

Bigoted yes, racist no.
05:38pm 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21335 posts
Yeah true, same s***

People were being c**** to these people in the name of trump directly after the result of the election was my point.

And his behavior these last few day is validating that behaviour.
05:43pm 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7698 posts
Totally agree, it's like all these ultra right wing groups got a green light after the d******* won office.
05:49pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2691 posts
I'm not so sure that is what is happening pave. I agree, Trump should have unequivocally condemned white nationalism and nazism straight away. I will also agree unequivocally that this was an act of terrorism. However, political violence in the US is not a uniquely, or even especially, right wing phenomenon. Not even at Charlottesville.

I remember reading unvalidated accounts of people being harassed as you suggest. I also remember reading a bunch of them being made up, this for example. I have no doubt some racist attacks happened, but I also have no doubt the reporting on it is wildly inaccurate.

However I can point to countless examples of antifa lawlessness. I can also point to the cars that were set on fire to during the so called woman's march. I can point out people violently rioting in DC on inauguration day.

I can point to this notorious "nazi" being given whiplash. Laughably, for the crime of talking to a "homophobic" marriage equality advocate.

I can also point out, I hear none of the following from anyone on the left of politics. I think you'll find them familiar from another context.

"violence has no ideology"
"we need to crack down on violent extremism"
"bigotry antagonizes people into acts of violence"
"this is just a part of living in a big city"
"we may never know the true motivation of the killer"
"we need to carry on as though nothing happened otherwise the nazi's win"

And I can point to sundry list of d*******s (vash, sir redhat jump to mind) on this forum who got on board with the "its ok to punch nazi's" meme. My response was instantly and unequivocally, that's retarded. Do you want a spiral of escalating violence? Because that's how you get a spiral of escalating violence.

and what about this guy. Though to Sanders credit, he condemned the attack instantly.

So if we want to discuss the normalization of political violence, I think we need to do it rationally and honestly.
07:14pm 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21336 posts
Yeah i remember some people got on the bandwagon after some of those attacked occurred and made up their own false story, but as you say i also totally believe it happened.

I don't doubt there has been violence sparked by policitcal s*** since forever.

But this is some seriously f***ed up neo-nazi s*** and trump can't do anymore than blame the opposite side of politics when it happened.

This is beyond politics or normalizing politically motivated violence, why have these groups got the traction now to come out in public and actually hold racist protests, it is completely insane.

What can you expect when a couple of your core policies during the presidential campaign were to ban muslim immigration and build a wall to stop mexicans from illegally crossing the border. Regardless of whatever his intentions were for those policies (terrorism etc.) that sort of thinking is a very slippery slope .... and here we are neo f*****g nazis marching through the streets.
07:45pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40767 posts
u can totes see old mate trump trying to work out what he needs to say to not alienate most of his support base, yet try to appease the rest of sensible america who are obviously outraged.
07:49pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2692 posts
I hear you pave, but neo-nazi's marching through the streets is not a new thing in the states. I'd draw your attention to Nazi's marching through Jewish neighborhoods where survivors lived during the 70's.

If those Jews managed to rise above violence what the f*** is everyone else's excuse? It is not possible to be more righteously indignant about nazism than a holocaust survivor.

Every single one of those events I pointed to happened in the last 12 months. Maybe it is the case trump green lit neo-nazi's, though I doubt they needed much encouragement. It is also unarguably the case that a section of the left have decided trumps election justifies their violence.

Antifa have a strong record of turning up to any political rally they disagree with (which is basically everyone) and pepper spraying and clubbing people with bike locks. In those circumstances, I'm not surprised Nazi's turn up looking for fights.
08:21pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5485 posts
Interesting how PP tries to point out these what aboutsies of leftist violence, when what we're dealing with from the right is actual murder and terrorism.
There is a large difference between political murder & punching a nazi, FYI.
09:29pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2693 posts
I suppose this guy was shooting tickling bullets. Or butterflies.

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.
09:31pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5486 posts
I suppose this guy was shooting tickling bullets. Or butterflies.

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.


Yeah you love your cherry picks don't you? Let's have a looksie at the long growing list of alt right terrorism.
And Antifa, at least, are about protecting minorities instead of targeting them.
09:51pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2694 posts
Oh a reddit post. By antifa fan boys.

You know this
Yeah you love your cherry picks don't you
Works best if you don't immediately do the thing you accuse some else of jackass.

Antifa don't protect minorities. Antifa brawl in the streets with people they don't agree with. and it is a sign of how extreme your retardation is that you'd say something like that. Politically motivated violence ends in people being killed full stop, period end of story. There is only two or three thousand years of evidence of this.

It is also unarguably the case that a section of the left have decided trumps election justifies their violence.


I rest my case.
07:01am 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2130 posts

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.

Except one side is literally opposing nazis. Not even a hyperbole here.

PS. It is still ok to punch nazis.

https://rocknerd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/100.gif
08:43am 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13707 posts
10:19am 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13708 posts
10:22am 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
821 posts

the long growing list of alt right terrorism.
.


At what end of the spectrum would our local convicted, and future terrorists currently living here vote? The ones who do kill innocents, plan and are stopped from killing innocents, the ones who are here currently planning the killing of innocents, and the ones who want to come here and then plan, and give birth to more generations who will plan to kill innocents?

They vote for the same mobs who want more welfare, more government, more PC, more censorship, more privacy, less security, and less border controls

.. and they want the right wing tax paying voters to pay for it.
12:05pm 17/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21337 posts
At what end of the spectrum would our local convicted, and future terrorists currently living here vote? The ones who do kill innocents, plan and are stopped from killing innocents, the ones who are here currently planning the killing of innocents, and the ones who want to come here and then plan, and give birth to more generations who will plan to kill innocents?

They vote for the same mobs who want more welfare, more government, more PC, more censorship, more privacy, less security, and less border controls


do they?
12:18pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5487 posts
Works best if you don't immediately do the thing you accuse some else of jackass.


Except that post is the exact opposite of cherry picking. It's a compilation of many incidences of alt right terrorism.
03:02pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
822 posts
I prefer:

Less welfare, less government, less PC, less censorship, less privacy (if it means better security), more security, less tolerance, less religion, and more border control.
03:47pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2131 posts
Jim in picture form.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0On4CbXcAAA9F3.jpg

For the record american identity politics is a s*** tip that has been lit on fire, but nazis getting punched is pretty funny.
03:47pm 17/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21338 posts
I prefer:

Less welfare, less government, less PC, less censorship, less privacy (if it means better security), more security, less tolerance, less religion, and more border control.


was that meant to answer my question?
03:58pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
154 posts
How have we got to a point where being against fascism is a bad thing?
04:26pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3125 posts
I got a c*** next door hanging his confederate flag, with his 20k harley waking the entire neighbourhood up.

F*** nazis. f*** white supremacists and fascists. f*** pauline hansen. F*** the liberals and their f*****g plebiscite.

I swear to god I usually identify with centrism but this type of s*** makes me want to blast the USSR f*****g anthem just to show how anti-nazi I am
04:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3126 posts
04:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3127 posts
04:46pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13709 posts
I've noticed your intellectually impoverished attempts at discrediting what you perceive to be centrism before sir redhat. It reveals a profound ignorance in your understanding of the political spectrum and is a stark indicator of how far you've actually regressed. Criticising regressively left ideology or other irrationalities doesn't make someone a centrist. In my case for example, I typically come out around here:

https://i.imgur.com/J5LzF9K.png

But for you, it seems anyone not in the very top left red square is either centrist or right-wing and that any means justifies the end - this mentality is a large part of the problem and in sad irony, actually gives you much more in common with that you claim to despise than you'd probably even dare to entertain
05:09pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13710 posts
How have we got to a point where being against fascism is a bad thing?


how have we gotten to the point where you think that's the case? :)
05:10pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3128 posts
Yes and Jim will you be attending the Centrist Rally next weekend?
05:33pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3129 posts
Just got back from the Centrist Rally. Amazing turnout. Thousands of people holding hands and chanting “Better things aren’t possible”
05:38pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10639 posts
05:39pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13711 posts
it's like phooks thought someone asked for a show of hands for who else can provide a good example of complete political irrationality
05:51pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2132 posts
But for you, it seems anyone not in the very top left red square is either centrist or right-wing and that any means justifies the end - this mentality is a large part of the problem and in sad irony, actually gives you much more in common with that you claim to despise than you'd probably even dare to entertain


Guys, I redid that test and when I took it again I answered the question truthfully about if I found it funny when a nazi gets punched.

The results then changed from bottom left to top left. I'm glad you helped me work out my political ideology Jim.

Seriously, where am I advocating for more authoritarianism? Just ask spook, I don't even like wearing a helmet when I am on my bike.
06:04pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5488 posts
Haha phooks, that T&J video is good.

Jim, according to your compass you should be an Antifa fanboy. They're left libertarians.
06:20pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40771 posts
its true!

ive seen redhat try to inflict huge damage on his brian many times!
06:37pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13712 posts
sir redhat: for example, you appear to advocate for not only the physical silencing of someone who holds an opinion that you think is morally reprehensible, but violence toward them to achieve it. it doesn't matter that you might reject some legislation imposed by the government - you hold the position of your tribe to be the authoritative one by which society should function and believe that it's ok to engage in violence against those who don't agree

vash: no they're not. their actions repeatedly demonstrate that they are against individual freedom when they use violence and intimidation to try and silence ideas they don't like
06:40pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5489 posts
no they're not. their actions repeatedly demonstrate that they are against individual freedom when they use violence and intimidation to try and silence ideas they don't like


As do alt righters who always paddle on about freedom & freedom of speech. Antifa obviously fights fascism, and if you allow Fascism to snowball, you end up with less freedoms.
06:49pm 17/08/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12866 posts
06:55pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13713 posts
hang on, how is paddling on about freedom and freedom of speech, going against individual freedom? isn't advocating for freedom of speech the polar opposite of trying to silence ideas you don't like?

also, fighting one flawed ideology by aggressively wielding another flawed ideology is not the way to maintain freedoms
07:06pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5490 posts
hang on, how is paddling on about freedom and freedom of speech, going against individual freedom? isn't advocating for freedom of speech the polar opposite of trying to silence ideas you don't like?

also, fighting one flawed ideology by aggressively wielding another flawed ideology is not the way to maintain freedoms


The right also use violence & intimidation, while paddling on about freedoms, as i linked above showing the numerous incidents.

One group is fighting for actual freedom for everyone, the other is seeking to target minorities such as Jews, Mexicans, gays, etc
07:17pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18418 posts
less government, less privacy for increased security


Huh? Less privacy = more government. Think about it.

07:25pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
823 posts


was that meant to answer my question?


Yes, I believe they will vote with left bias. Disagree?
07:26pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
824 posts


Huh? Less privacy = more government. Think about it.



You try thinking about it more. Big thinker. The lack of transparency of what people are doing creates government waste.
07:31pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2695 posts
Except one side is literally opposing nazis. Not even a hyperbole here.

PS. It is still ok to punch nazis.


Like I said the last time we went over this. The people who say its ok to walk around punching nazis are objectively terrible at actually spotting nazis. Case in point. Imagine my shock as antifa incorrectly identify someone at the charlottesville rally. Wont retract, wont apologise, called for mob violence for an innocent man (and I might add, if he actually was there (which he wasn't) he was within his constitutionally enshrined rights).

So if we want to talk about how opposing nazis is a good thing, talking down their ideas is a good thing. Fighting them in the street is a bad retarded thing. I mean how f*****g awful at persuasion do you have to be to be unable to talk someone out of nazism.

But to cut to the core of your point. Fighting nazis = good is retarded pre-school level political thought. So on par for you. And a huge part of our current problems. for example

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/CroppedStalin1943.jpg/220px-CroppedStalin1943.jpg

PS you're still retarded.
07:37pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2133 posts
Who's silencing them? There's a difference between free speech and free speech without repercussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

I suppose we should just tolerate everyone and their views. Even if their views are things like "day of the rope" and fascism?

Give them equal airtime and cluck our tongues if one of them ends up with a sore cheek.
07:41pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5491 posts
I mean how f*****g awful at persuasion do you have to be to be unable to talk someone out of nazism.


lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.
07:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2696 posts
I suppose we should just tolerate everyone and their views.


Really? You mean as opposed to fight them in the streets? is that a trick question or are you actually that f*****g stupid.

You clearly have no idea how the human mind works.


I don't know how yours works. I'm pretty sure you're an elaborate program created by someone with excessively low expectations of humanity.
07:48pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13714 posts
vash: ok I see what you mean now. But why bring that up though? I wasn't saying anything about the alt-right, I was just responding to your suggestion that antifa are left libertarians. Also I disagree with the notion that antifa are fighting for actual freedom for everyone, again because they often attempt to stifle discussion using the notion of 'hate speech' as justification. That's not fighting for freedom for everyone, that's fighting for everyone except people who say things they don't like.

sir redhat: when a university for example - a supposed bastion of freedom of expression, thought and discussion of ideas - cancels speaking events because they don't want to try and deal with expected or even just implied violence and rioting by people who don't like what the speaker might say, the people who were scheduled to speak have been silenced by the people who previously rioted or engaged in violence, by any people who may not have done so but who now apply pressure under the premise that it will happen again, and by partisan and/or spineless university administrators. Glossing over that as simply a 'repercussion' is disingenuous - the speakers in this scenario had their opportunity to express themselves as planned, removed in the first place.

A valid repercussion to them having been allowed the freedom to speak, would be to publicly offer a counter argument instead of stopping them from being able to say their words in the scheduled forum in the first place.
08:15pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
825 posts


lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.


Works both ways. Try explaining to a 20 year old uni student environmentalist that they have so far spent 20 years sucking up resources, and have provided back little to the community. That if they really want to help save the planet they should stop breeding (get sterilised), stop wearing clothes, stop eating, don't buy anything, just find a cliff and jump off into the mouth of a shark or crocodile to save the environment. But no, they want a house, a car, netflix, ipads, batteries, asphalt roads, electricity, nuclear medicine, overseas holidays, hot water on tap, and take $4 away coffee in recyclable cups. It tales more to save the environment than pointing fingers at big business, subscribing to right-wing-hate-news, avoiding the purchase of razor blades, and not buying soap or having showers.
08:17pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13715 posts
lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.


And that's their prerogative. Are you going to police their thoughts now?

The key point here is providing a reasoned counter-argument to their position so that observers can then make their own choice about what position they'll now take having heard both arguments. This is how society progresses. This is why I and others use the term 'regressive' to describe extremists who would try and control what everyone thinks and says - they would effectively have us go backwards by their own misguided attempts to prevent 'backward' thinking.
08:20pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2134 posts
Jim, yeah mate with you there on the whole free speech thing. I thought the recent google fiasco was pretty dumb and OTT. I thought it was crazy Milo being shutdown, but literal Nazis don't deserve a podium.

Hate deserves no place in society. I wouldn't wring my hands if a muslim cleric preaching extremism or a westbro baptist gets punched while protesting a funeral either.

Oh yeh, PP, Nice post on some historical figure that is a fascist. If you're going to post a historical picture of people who did violence to fascists maybe post a picture of Orwell?
08:28pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13716 posts
Yeah it would be great if there were no hate in society, but there is and may always be until we evolve some more - but I think it's foolish to think you can stop it by driving it underground where it can more easily fester and grow unchecked. The podium becomes far less important when you cease trying to force people from listening to the person speaking from it.

I think I've posted this video here before, but it's so good that I don't care:

08:40pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2697 posts
Oh yeh, PP, Nice post on some historical figure that is a fascist. If you're going to post a historical picture of people who did violence to fascists maybe post a picture of Orwell?


I think you mis-spelt socialist. It was a simple point, I'm glad to see it went straight over your head.

Remind me. Is Orwell famous for his 30's sojourn or his persuasive text?

Then think about the point I was making. It's simple. If you put your mind to it you should get there.

Jim, yeah mate with you there on the whole free speech thing

no you're not. Because:
but literal Nazis don't deserve a podium.

and
I wouldn't wring my hands if a muslim cleric preaching extremism or a westbro baptist gets punched while protesting a funeral either.


The only alternative to speech is violence.

Again, not a difficult point. straight over your head.
09:19pm 17/08/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11666 posts
I too thought i was more centrist than this. This is interesting. I think many in the left think they're moderate-left, and don't realise how extreme left they really are.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-5.63&soc=-3.08

last edited by hardware at 21:33:43 17/Aug/17
09:32pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2135 posts
PP there's a difference between free speech and organising apartheid, violence and hate.

Remember just 5 months ago?

http://i.imgur.com/sBjvRIw.png
09:54pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5492 posts
People have been fighting for their freedom with violence since year dot.
If a fascist leader like Hitler was elected again, do you think people are going to sit down and say, yeah cool, he was democratically elected. And the people who elected him are of course exercising their freedom of speech & their vote. Can't do much about it.

Im sure people tried having a debate with the Nazis before the holocaust.
09:56pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18420 posts

You try thinking about it more. Big thinker. The lack of transparency of what people are doing creates government waste.


Who decides what is transparent, and who decides what is allowed with that transparency, who is going to monitor it, who is going to enforce it, who is going to pay for that... government, more government.

Then people are going to be all 'f*** this, I don't want the government pocking their noses into my private s***, I'll hide it'.

Now more government is needed to make laws to try stop people from hiding s*** that the government wants to see, when the great majority of that s*** is just the normal private affairs of an individual. It just goes on.

Something like that anyway, little thinker.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 22:42:19 17/Aug/17
10:39pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2698 posts
PP there's a difference between free speech and organising apartheid, violence and hate.

Remember just 5 months ago?


Yeah so peoples ability to call things nazism is about the single most unreliable guide to finding actual nazi's I think we've covered this pretty thoroughly.

and more importantly organizing apartheid *is not* happening in the US. And even if it was. The response in dealing with it is as important as the advocates of it.

If in the process you hand the keys over to a punch of moronic tyrants who say equality but in practice are the most ridged ingroup tribalism I've ever seen prepared to back their moronic views with mob violence, that isn't a win.
06:56am 18/08/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1105 posts
I find it harder to believe all the claims of Nazis under the bed when I've seen people calling Milo a Nazi.
The gay Jew who has a strong sexual preference for black men is apparently a Nazi or alt-right which apparently also means Nazi.

And now apparently, according to places like Vox, MRA's, PUA's, MGTOW's etc are all Nazis (or at least white supremacists)...

Basically it's "anyone who disagrees with me is a literal Nazi and deserves punching!"

And I'm someone even more left libertarian on that political compass than was just posted...
09:07am 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
826 posts
Ohh yah, this whole use of the term Nazi is just ridiculous.

What we are seeing is the result of poor people (many from 3rd worlds countries) having increased voice through social media. We can attribute the rise, to exponential smart phone ownership. It allows them to get together and blame others for the results of their (and their ancestors) decisions. It's circle jerking. Both sides so it. Everyone does it. Losers love to blame others for their own misfortune, it's the reason they are poor in the first place, they lack the mindset to realise taking personal responsibility for life's outcomes is difficult, yet rewarding.

I think right of centre, but to admire, or adopt nazi leaders and propaganda is for the maladjusted. There are nutters at all points along the political spectrum, and what we see is the sensationalised anomalies getting max air time, because that what gets 'engagement' (like selling papers). There are lots of people out there looking to follow 'something'.. Looking for something they can get passionate about, something where emotion can override logic and provide a feeling of belonging. Easiest way to help bond a team is to have a combined enemy. It works on hate. Hate and anger are the most simple and primitive thoughts. Soccer teams do it, a bunch of school girls do it. Political groups do it, Hillary, and Trump were/are doing it. It's lame, but it works.
09:40am 18/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3130 posts
^ Yeah people in poverty deserve it

foad
10:26am 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
827 posts
So I live in a desert, in poverty, and have 8 children.
11:47am 18/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3131 posts
Please enlighten us with your final solution nmag
03:03pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3295 posts
Saw a bunch of Swastikas at Charlottesville, and they were chanting old Nazi slogans like 'blood & soil', as well as espousing the Nazi style antisemitism. Sure those peeps aren't actual Nazis per say perhaps? But they seem to be emulating them and/or espousing Nazi ideology, so they'd be neo nazis or similar, no?

Surprising to see Vice do a half decent expose, pretty depressing to watch. That Christopher Cantwel dude is a worry! Man at the end there with all those guns, are they sure they don't want gun control!?

Hard to imagine the reaction wouldn't have been more severe if they weren't all white tbh.

On the other hand, aligning Trump with Nazism is probably the most likely line of attack to bring him down. Interested to see if he can also teflon supposedly supporting Nazis!
05:43pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
828 posts
Politely ask the 3rd world to stop breeding so much.
07:44pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5493 posts
Politely ask the 3rd world to stop breeding so much.


Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

On average, one American consumes as much energy as

- 2 Japanese

- 6 Mexicans

- 13 Chinese

- 31 Indians

- 128 Bangladeshis

- 307 Tanzanians

- 370 Ethiopians
08:40pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
829 posts
omg is America taking all the energy from the Ethiopians too?
09:36pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10640 posts
Rukh has appeared! This should get confusing very quickly.
10:00pm 18/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2699 posts
On the other hand, aligning Trump with Nazism is probably the most likely line of attack to bring him down. Interested to see if he can also teflon supposedly supporting Nazis!


I think its literally the opposite. He isn't a Nazi, and while he should be out there saying Nazi's are d*******s, it doesn't make him a Nazi for not doing it. Unless you think taylor swift is a Nazi too.

Pushing on the Nazi front I think will politically marginalize the people who do it because the average American is going to see it for what it is instantly. More hysteria, and a pretty loathsome tactic really. The come back is to just say, oh so you'd stand on the bodies of Auschwitz to score a political point would you? And then just make a smooth transition to the topic of Israel.

Hysterically, Antifa at charlottesville gave a reporter a concussion, won't apoligise, called the reporter a racist (while literally saying we don't tolerate white men with iphones), and stated because he was filming them without permission he was perpetuating rape culture. What a time to be alive.

So there is no show without punch it seems. So Barcelona, sir redhat, you were saying how we don't have to tolerate points of view we don't like and its ok to punch people with the wrong opinions. Just get on in there and finish that thought for us.
08:57am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
830 posts
.....
08:58am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
831 posts
Pushing the Nazi angle just introduces complete ridiculousness, and generates more opposition. It takes people who are mildly right, and makes them more likely to vote "against" the left, rather "for" the right. Look how "deplorable" worked out for crooked Hillary. Some people will vote as far right as they can, just to help balance the things they see coming from the far left media.

Saw this on FB today... how funny is this?

http://i.imgur.com/X3ZSXwp.jpg

However the Nazi angle probbaly works on naive idiots. It's very convenient, and in some ways ignorant* I mean look at all those people who worship Jesus on a crucifix. If he was publicly executed in today's times, they would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks. Logic is not something we will find at either extreme end of the scale, however those who dwell there shed objectivity and tend to slide further and further away from rational thought, as they circle jerk their way towards extreme confirmation bias.

*We already live in a right wing world, and it continues to go that way. Just look who runs the country. The extreme Islamic attacks certainly helped propel things further to the right. The more they do it, the more right wing voters. The Apex gang in Melbourne, they also help with the shift to the right.

With racial clashes we can see the results of the media. The way Cronulla actually built up and what happened.. translated into international news with a strong bias that sells papers. Locals know what happened, and why it happened, and what happened after. However the news focused on one part only.. and the legacy didn't highlight what happened before or after.
09:27am 19/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7699 posts
Sorry Vash I'm with Nmag on the population bomb.

Go watch Soylent Green and get back to me
11:43am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
832 posts
more condom drops
04:54pm 19/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3132 posts
Sounds like these guys in poverty are really f*****g it up for the rest of us
09:08pm 19/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25991 posts
What we are seeing is the result of poor people (many from 3rd worlds countries) having increased voice through social media.
What we need is for the poor people of the world to shut up about their problems and just accept that they're f***ed forever. We also need more freedom of speech.

Try explaining to a 20 year old uni student environmentalist that they have so far spent 20 years sucking up resources, and have provided back little to the community. That if they really want to help save the planet they should stop breeding (get sterilised), stop wearing clothes, stop eating, don't buy anything, just find a cliff and jump off into the mouth of a shark or crocodile to save the environment. But no, they want a house, a car, netflix, ipads, batteries, asphalt roads, electricity, nuclear medicine, overseas holidays, hot water on tap, and take $4 away coffee in recyclable cups. It tales more to save the environment than pointing fingers at big business, subscribing to right-wing-hate-news, avoiding the purchase of razor blades, and not buying soap or having showers.
Rather succinct criticism of capitalism you just made there but I feel that may not have been your intention.
12:33am 20/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2700 posts
Look at fpot go everyone. so dreamy.

you also think you get to decide what the words other people say mean
Rather succinct criticism of capitalism you just made there but I feel that may not have been your intention.
09:46am 20/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7700 posts
When I see a child starving to death in Africa or a ghetto in India all of our first world posturing is pathetic.
12:13pm 20/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5494 posts
Nice edit there nmag, for a moment there i thought you were condoning slavery.

you also think you get to decide what the words other people say mean


Heh, PP again criticising others of doing exactly what he does.
02:50pm 20/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3134 posts
I have some leftist propaganda for you

04:08pm 21/08/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12868 posts
The Ice Age of the 70s was going to lead to mass starvation too.

Earth Day 1970:

"Civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind." — Harvard biologist George Wald

"We are in an environmental crisis which threatens the survival of this nation, and of the world as a suitable place of human habitation." — Washington University biologist Barry Commoner

"Man must stop pollution and conserve his resources, not merely to enhance existence but to save the race from intolerable deterioration and possible extinction." — New York Times editorial

"Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make. The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years." — Stanford University biologist Paul Ehrlich

"Most of the people who are going to die in the greatest cataclysm in the history of man have already been born… [By 1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s." — Paul Ehrlich

"It is already too late to avoid mass starvation," — Denis Hayes, Chief organizer for Earth Day

"Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable:
by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India;
these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions….

By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine." — North Texas State University professor Peter Gunter

"In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution… by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half." — Life magazine

"At the present rate of nitrogen buildup, it's only a matter of time before light will be filtered out of the atmosphere and none of our land will be usable." — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

"Air pollution...is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone." — Paul Ehrlich

"By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate… that there won't be any more crude oil. You'll drive up to the pump and say, ‘Fill 'er up, buddy,' and he'll say, ‘I am very sorry, there isn't any.'" — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

"[One] theory assumes that the earth's cloud cover will continue to thicken as more dust, fumes, and water vapor are belched into the atmosphere by industrial smokestacks and jet planes. Screened from the sun's heat, the planet will cool, the water vapor will fall and freeze, and a new Ice Age will be born." — Newsweek magazine

"The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age."


http://www.freedomworks.org/content/13-worst-predictions-made-earth-day-1970

Erlich still runs around the world telling everyone that the End of the World is nigh but hes now a big Climate Change alarmist

Incidently, India facing starvation ?
India’s foodgrain production for the 2016-17 crop year is estimated at record 275.68 million tonnes ... which is over 4% higher than the previous record production achieved in the country during 2013-14.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/govt-revises-foodgrain-output-to-record-275-68-million-tonnes/articleshow/60090001.cms

Now its Climate Change
I dunno, could they be exaggerating just a little ?

07:10pm 21/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5496 posts


You'd love this guy faceman
08:43pm 21/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
833 posts
Did the communism party marge with the Greens some years ago?
09:12pm 21/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25993 posts
Communist party was dissolved in 1991 according to wikipedia.

In 1991, the Communist Party was dissolved and the New Left Party formed. The New Left Party was intended to be a broader party which would attract a wider range of members, which did not happen, and the New Left Party disbanded in 1992. The assets of the Communist Party were thereafter directed into the SEARCH Foundation,[4] a not-for-profit company set up in 1990 "to preserve and draw on the resources of the Communist Party of Australia and its archives."[5] The archives of the party are now held at the State Library of NSW[6] and can be accessed with the written permission of the SEARCH Foundation. The State Library of NSW holds an extensive collection of material related to the Communist Party of Australia including oral history recordings, business papers, the personal papers of a range of men and women involved in the Party and a collection of images that were published in Tribune the Party's newspaper.[7] The Victoria University Library holds the Crow Collection, donated by long-time Communist Party member Ruth Crow, which includes materials from her years campaigning for the Communist Party. The University of Melbourne collection is “one of the most significant from the CPA held in Australia”, containing 20th-century materials from the Victorian branch.[8][9]
10:09pm 21/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18421 posts
Holy s*** Nmag


What we are seeing is the result of poor people (many from 3rd worlds countries)

...

Losers love to blame others for their own misfortune, it's the reason they are poor in the first place, they lack the mindset to realise taking personal responsibility for life's outcomes is difficult, yet rewarding.



How ignorant are you? As this quote from you screams how poorly you understand the plight of the poor. Your following comments also don't display any insight at all.
A loser might blame others for this misfortune, a coward ignores the inequity of others whilst enjoying the fortunes of being born in a rich country.

No need to reply, I won't read it.
12:13am 22/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21342 posts
12:28pm 22/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25994 posts
Tucker Carlson - looking into the sun without eye protection "perhaps the most impressive thing any president has ever done.”

Not sure if serious but it is Fox News and it is Tucker Carlson so any level of sycophantry is possible.
12:40pm 22/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21343 posts
Carlson added that Trump’s unprotected sun-glancing was “not a complete surprise.” As a joke, the bit was perhaps a pretty incisive bit of self-parody.


think it was a piss take

but really genuinely not completely surprising
01:10pm 22/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25995 posts
Heh yeah looks that way. You know Trump's done something pretty silly when even Fox News shows a glint of self-awareness.
01:19pm 22/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18423 posts
Trump is great, literally the greatest president America has ever had and well since we're being honest here lets just face it, he's the best Human that has ever been.
As such, obviously he can stare into the sun, only great men can stare directly into the sun and he did it, as he is so intelligent, the most intelligent president, look at him .. staring into the sun. What a great man.
01:24pm 22/08/17 Permalink