Researching the world of Warhammer proved to be somewhat similar to their deep dives into real world history. Creative Assembly open up about the latest Total War.
Talking Total War Warhammer II with Creative Assembly
The looming Darkness has not consumed Bungie at this point in time. Quite the contrary. Destiny 2 is the glorious self-rez fans have been praying for.
Out of Orbit - Our Full and Complete Destiny 2 Review
With the NES emulator naming of 'flog' it showcases the ability for the Switch to play NES games. But, it also raises the question of - why?
The Heart-Warming Story Behind the Switch's Hidden NES Golf Game
Having recently entered the Early Access stage of development, we go hands-on with the latest build of id Software's Quake Champions.
Fraggin' Good Times - Hands-On with Quake Champions
Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38607 posts
I mean I guess if we are concerned about human rights abuses though we should make sure we've got our own house in order with respect to mandatory detention too :)
07:46pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38608 posts
Public policy is fundamentally about no care no responsibility. That's why it will never deliver superior outcomes.
It is NOT fundamentally about that at all.

"No care no responsibility" might be the unintended side effect from those in our society that are too lazy or whatever. That is a shame but it is the cost of having such a programme and it must be borne because the alternative, in most cases, sucks way more.

"Public policy" is about a lot of things but what I assume you're talking about is the part of it dedicated to helping those who can't help themselves.

And as we see in healthcare, public policy healthcare actually delivers superior outcomes all the time when compared to (say) private healthcare like in the United States. Lower costs and better health outcomes. It is actually a pretty cold hard fact so it puzzles me that you would attempt to go down this path.
09:12pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38609 posts
Okay. You tell me why a shirt made by Gucci @ $2000 is worth more than a tshirt made in a sweatshop in Bangledesh for 50 cents.
It's worth what people will pay for it

that is how markets work; there is nothing wrong with that
09:15pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38610 posts
There is something wrong with that. The only people who can afford something so expensive are ones that live within a wealthy economy.
Even in a "wealthy economy" there are many people who can't afford that. Luxuries will exist until we move into a post-scarcity economy and it's not realistic to pretend otherwise.

The differences between economies will get smoothed out as technology improves, assuming those s***** third world countries can break out of their cycle of despots and dictators and religious extremism that keep their people submissive. This is already happening in markets like China and India (I've spoken to tech people who no longer outsource to these markets because they've grown too expensive, which basically just means there are people willing to do it for basically nothing in other countries where the competition hasn't evolved to that point yet).

I am encouraged that things in these countries are gradually improving. I don't think it will happen in the Middle East soon because they are slaves to religion and the oligarchy. But they have bigger problems.

In the meantime if people are dead set pants on head crazy enough to want to buy a $2000 shirt, more power to them
09:33pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38611 posts
That's great trog. You can go public and I will go private!
I assume you mean "you'll go private with your cushy private insurance heavily buoyed by the amazing public health system in Australia", and not "you'll go private in the United States which is actually much closer to the institution that you think you are describing"

"Going private" in the US would be basically your only option. Even WITH many Obamacare plans you might end up with a copay that is a percentage of the total. My partner's copay with her employer was 20%. "Going private" means most people get wiped out financially in the kind of market you're talking about.

But nice bon mot
09:36pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38613 posts
What does "health care is completely for profit" even mean?

My dad works for the public health system and is paid a salary. Is that for profit?
09:54pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38614 posts
Which over time has the best chance of delivering greater efficiency, a private sector competitive market or the public sector bureaucracy?
A public sector bureaucracy is the answer borne out by literally all the available evidence in every case around the world that I am aware of (and you, as far as I'm aware, as you weren't able to provide any examples to the contrary when I asked you earlier.

This seems like one of those cases where a capitalist would rail against someone extolling the virtues of socialism or communism. You're describing a hypothetical in which it sure would be nice if the free market worked to create efficient solutions to health care. But in reality, what actually happens is people f*** it all up because they're jerks. (I hope the irony of this is not lost on anyone.)

I note you didn't answer my extremely simple and to-the-point-question but just raised another really boring strawman
10:25pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38615 posts
I even bolded it for you. You didn't read my response.
you pasted me something from an Ayn Rand novel.
Very concerning, you have blinkers on thinking of profit in a conventional manner.
I was asking /you/ a question to try to establish how you think about it.

I already know people engage in "rational self interest". I'm just trying to figure out what your definition of a "for profit health system" is
The US doesn't have a competitive private health-care system - it is controlled by vested interests and politicians. Unsurprising.
I don't disagree; my position is that the kind of market you envisage is purely theoretical and I don't think is possible for it to exist, for the same reasons that it doesn't and can't exist in US.

I think the efficiency gains you get from a single system outweigh the "damage" caused by bloat.
12:46am 25/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25567 posts
It must suck to be scientifically illiterate but surely it is possible to overcome it.
05:11pm 26/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25568 posts
Just like climate change, it shouldn't be. It's only social conservatives scared of things they don't think are normal who are creating noise about it.
05:31pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2143 posts
Do you know much about transgender fpot?
05:48pm 26/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25569 posts
What answer will induce the least amount of of excruciating circular argumentation from you?
06:08pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2144 posts
I've never given you a circular argument. We can discuss how an image may have inherent properties or not, or if the intention behind the image matters again if you'd like. But it's not circular reasoning.

Just wondering what these comments are based on:

It's only social conservatives scared of things they don't think are normal who are creating noise about it.
It must suck to be scientifically illiterate but surely it is possible to overcome it.


your own detailed scientific knowledge of the subject no doubt.
06:25pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2145 posts
Not like its difficult for a gotcha with you vash. You don't post much else.
06:26pm 26/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38617 posts
And fashion magazines and news networks and social media.
as I've said before... Twitter problems. Vocal conservative d**** and left wing nutjobs making it into a much bigger problem than it actually is in reality.

who gives a s***? what possible impact is this going to have on your life? I can understand pants on head crazy religionists caring but how could it affect anyone else in any way aside from just being irritating (note: I find a lot of it irritating, like the pronoun issue).
08:58pm 26/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38618 posts
I don't read fashion magazines so I guess I'm missing all the stories about all these prosecutions that are happening

I sympathise heavily with the right of the employer to decide who they want to employ for whatever reason they want, but I also recognise that this might need to be balanced against the rights of those that might often be discriminated against. I am not sure I can come down entirely on the side of the employer although to me it seems like the simplest and easiest solution (which generally I prefer).

I am not sure how many actual cases it would take where an employee suing an employer for these sorts of discriminations for me to go "wow this is a widespread and serious problem" but so far I don't think we're there yet. So I feel comfortable not taking it seriously. Perhaps I am wrong and it is much more common than I think, in which case I imagine there are many resources devoted to looking at it.
11:28pm 26/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38619 posts
Replacing one Ideology with another.
teaching those to be tolerant, and to not tolerate intolerance? yeh I guess that's an ideology

let me guess, what you want to replace with is not an ideology but something different
10:06pm 27/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38620 posts
we cant teach Tolerance without Safe Schools ?
Roze Ward and her qualifications and where Safe Schools comes from

http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/dumb-sodomy-cash/

That doesnt sound like a Tolerant person.
Yeh I was mostly trying to point out the irony of complaining about replacing something with another ideology when it's clear that you have your own ideology that you'd happily put in there

also f*** me at the train wrecks of humanity that post in the comments on that website. never read the comments! also hahah at their attempted Socratic dialog about global warming
12:56am 28/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25570 posts
Indistinguishable from right-wing satire.
01:03am 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2146 posts
also f*** me at the train wrecks of humanity that post in the comments on that website.


I take it you did stop to read the actual article though right?

This academic concentration on feminist theory and cultural studies, rather than on medicine and psychology, was reflected in the construction of the Safe Schools campaign, which quite avoided consultation with child psychiatrists and paediatricians, and other professionals who possess expert medical knowledge of sexuality and gender-identity issues.


Given the kind of damage bullying does is psychological seems difficult to maintain there is no ideological bent on the program when it eschews Child Psychiatrists and Paediatricians. Seems like a program like that is destined to leave the actual harm done by bullying unaddressed. We sure will know a lot about marcuse and foucault though. Here is another interesting article about treating childhood gender disphoria. I think we can both take an educated guess at which camp ward falls in.

Keep in mind Roz Ward herself isn't a psychologist. She is a gender theorist, and a poorly qualified one at that, master of arts phulees. Interesting choice, given that bullying does psychological harm.

Gender theorists recently discovered that breast feeding isn't "natural but in fact gendered". Life saving (totally not ideologically driven) work I'm sure you'll agree.

Gender theorists are also:

Merging feminist postcolonial science studies and feminist political ecology, the feminist glaciology framework generates robust analysis of gender, power, and epistemologies in dynamic social-ecological systems, thereby leading to more just and equitable science and human-ice interactions.
Glaciology is in fact a gendered science (who knew right, thank god "totally devoid of an ideological slant" gender theorists are here to tell us.).

I'd take a wander through real peer review before talking about ideology (or the lack of it) and gender theory.

teaching those to be tolerant, and to not tolerate intolerance? yeh I guess that's an ideology


Pretty sure you're going to be able to get 99.999999% of the population on board with "bullying is bad". If there is objection, could be worth looking into why, rather than waffling about tolerance.
07:26am 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38622 posts
Yeh I was mostly trying to point out the irony of complaining about replacing something - oh wait, I already said that.
Gender theorists recently discovered that breast feeding isn't "natural but in fact gendered". Life saving (totally not ideologically driven) work I'm sure you'll agree.
edit: that is pretty f*****g funny tho. Total strawman though but pretty hilarious
07:47pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38623 posts
^ Sadly, the Greens are committing a slow suicide.

They need to get back to their core environmental policies.
I actually think they should move away from them! I think the only future they really have is to become a more well-rounded party that is not a single issue. At the moment the general impression of them (purely anecdotally at least in my experience) seems to be that they're just scruffy hippy treehuggers with no real sound economic policies (... arguable).

I think they're quite excellent in a lot of other areas though - technical and privacy and civil liberty kind of stuff. But even I don't agree with all their environmental policies. I think they could take a less hardline view but they'd risk alienating their "base", for whatever that's worth.
07:59pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2147 posts
Yeah, would be a strawman if the field wasn't rife with this exact kind of "research". But it is. again it is worth checking real peer review. Both of those articles are peer reviewed, please keep that in mind before writing it off as a strawman. having worked for a peer reviewed journal that means both papers were read and approved by multiple gender scholars, ideally from other universities.

Peer Review is supposed to keep nonsense like that from seeing the light of day. Clearly in gender theory it is failing. Badly.

*edit*
Which begs the question, what place does it have in a junior high school anti bullying program?
08:00pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38625 posts
Yeh I deleted that point scoring thing (almost) immediately afterwards because I realised it was hypocritical as f***. Sorry!
08:47pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2148 posts
In the interests of charity, I'll direct you to these three articles which serve as part of the basis of my skeptisim for safe schools and most other politically correct safety measures (including how we discuss Islam). My view is that these things are all loosely connected, and I don't pretend offer particularly simple or complete analysis.
But then what was it John Stewart said about bulls*** mountain "our problems are stratified and the solutions simplified". Safe Schools falls squarely in that bracket imo (LGBT bullying is a matter of imminent life and death, all we have to do to stop is use the correct pronouns and don't use the word "gay" such that it carries a negative connotation).

Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science
Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science Part II
Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science Part III
09:01pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38627 posts
I don't know anything about Safe Schools other than it seems like a good idea in theory

I'll read those links later when I have some more time (a violation of my current policy to not click on anything that has the word 'Trump' in it because zzzzz) - but glancing at their opening statements I'm already lost. It seems to open with the premise that all these "social scientists" (obviously from the title they're going to be the target) are sitting around literally dumbfounded and shellshocked that their science is broken because the polls were wrong. e.g.
The reason, I suggest, is that the social sciences have fostered an environment where certain beliefs are held above scientific inquiry, thus making them unchallengeable. Consequently, scientists are unable to adjust their models of human behaviour when they make poor predictions, forcing the scientists instead into a position of surprise, perplexity, and moral condemnation.
This reads, at a glance, like an anti-science article trying to paste (edit: paint!) all scientists with a very very VERY broad brush. But what else would you expect from an economist :) edit: ducks from taggs
09:38pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2149 posts
There are three articles. I'll wait for the considered opinion.
09:44pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2150 posts
Having read the first article & then the comments, i didn't bother with the remaining two articles.


Guess we are still waiting for the considered opinion then champ.
11:29pm 29/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2151 posts
Yeah except, like trump, he is an elected law maker. Like it or not his opinion matters now. My word you are a case study in the damage political tribalism does to minds. I've never seen someone openly parade their naked ignorance on so much as a badge of civic virtue.

More stupid conservative talk of anti progressive thinking.


Yeah except the guy who wrote it isn't a conservative. It's a problem Jonathan Haidt has been talking about for a while now. Again not a conservative.

The entire cause of Trump & the rise of the right is because of neoliberalism & establishment oppression of wealth equality.


It just wasn't. We have known for a while trump isn't getting huge working class support.

He won Michigan but lost Detroit (or motor city) in a landslide (Hillary won Detroit by 66%) and lost Flint the big centers of industrial decline in the state. So try again little fella.
07:51am 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2152 posts
09:43am 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2153 posts
He has enough support of the lower & middle classes, or he wouldn't have been elected.


yeah so those hard stats I just provided which completely undermine the claim its neo-liberalism's fault say otherwise. and you talk about "anti-science" Jesus.

The median (ie most common not mean) trump voter has an annual income around the $70k mark (some states it was as high as $99k). US average is $60k.

That's hardly poverty.

its something like less than 14% of his support came from people with incomes under $50k.

Hillary's base had a lower median income, so this statement:

Hilary isn't a leftist, far from it. It's hilarious if people actually think this is true. She's a champion of wall street, not far off Trump.


If the election was solely (or even mostly) about railing about corporatism/neo-liberalism, makes no sense, measured against what we know about who voted for Hillary. Doubly so when you consider she won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes.

The people most hurt by your version of neo-liberalism voted for the champion of wall street. compelling analysis vash, truly.

The same pattern emerges in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania (Hillary crushed Pittsburgh the big steel city with a 16 point margin) and Ohio nytimes result map here

a working class revolution simply does not explain this election on its own, and I strongly doubt it explains much at all.

When people so adamantly anti science are elected, there are some big problems with the flow of information that influence people's voting choices.


Or they are acting in their own rational self interest and you just don't know what it is.
01:10pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2154 posts
Oh good an unsourced picture.

which places Trump to the left of Hillary.

I dont see a correlation between that article & discounting the cause being neoliberalism. All it's saying is that the voters were majority middle class whites. Clinton is pretty close to Trump on the political spectrum. Both are neoliberals in the sense of being paid off, looking after big business & the wealthy instead of working people.


You appear to be confusing neo-liberalism with corruption. with that said I'm not convinced you even know what the term means.

The correlation you're not seeing is the fact that the jobs everyone is talking about belong to the working class not the middle class. China is taking manufacturing jobs by and large not services jobs. Cities with large working class populations in the three key states voted for Clinton. Trump framed himself continually as an anti-neo-liberal. He is talking about an isolationist foreign policy and talking about ripping up free trade deals. These are the opposite of neo-liberalism. neo-liberalism is about integrated internationalism and free trade. The only thing you could say has even a wif of neo-liberalism about it is his tax platform.

The people who stand to get the most out of free trade etc IE people in the upper wage demographics (who face relatively low threat to their employment and will get cheaper goods) voted for Trump. The people most likely to be hurt by that voted for Hillary.

Either 100 million people have just voted against their self interest, or the cause is something else. The industrial decline caused by neo-liberalism argument does not stack up when you consider who is voting for whom. Even the anti-wall street argument doesn't really float because cities which were hit hard by sub-prime (see Cleveland Ohio for example) voted for a candidate who's wall street connections are undeniable.

One final point, if Clinton is a wall street shill so was Obama. There aren't huge discrepancies in their donor lists. Obama absolutely consulted with wall street when it came to economic policy.
03:11pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2155 posts
So the picture you posted you don't agree with, you place Trump to the right of Clinton?

He is pro privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation & reductions in government spending.


You cannot be serious. His platform is literally the opposite of this. He is about to massively increase government spending on infrastructure. he is talking about increased spending for hospitals and schools. He wants to increase protectionism to repatriate jobs. he also want to expand the military.

That just isn't a privatization, fiscally austere policy program right there. You are a talking out your ass.
03:55pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2156 posts
Neo liberals or classic conservatives (does Hillary fall into this camp too) Vash?

What public asset sales is he talking about? I've not heard of any.

His policy platform has been infrastructure spending, better medical care for veterans, and withdrawing from international trade agreements.

There is almost nothing that is neo-liberal about that.

Every single conservative party has been stridently against stimulus. What are you talking about?
04:06pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2157 posts
So we are back to neo-liberal now?

He is going to attempt to fund his infrastructure spending through debt really obviously. Which is an anti-neoliberal double whammy.

I don't understand what you're talking about with prisons. They aren't public now, so if maintaining the status quo is the measure Obama is a neo liberal with respect to prisons.

Obamacare regulates private health insurers it isn't a public insurance policy, so again I don't see how this privatising things. They are already private. Public input is managed through tax subsides, so the awful awful private health insurers get tax credits for taking on higher risk.

But winding it back if the election was all about a backlash to neo-liberalism how did this (not quite) obvious neo-liberal get elected again?

I'm getting the distinct impression neo-liberal means Vash doesn't like it.
04:24pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2158 posts
He has explicitly stated he is prepared to fund infrastructure through debt.
Likely he will go further into debt then look for things to sell for when he realises he doesn't have the revenue or raise taxes again.

so it isn't obvious he will use debt, but it is likely he will, and then sell the projects for profits somehow? yes the clarity of thought is simply astonishing vash.

Obama announces ending private prisons two months before an election he is constitutionally barred from running in? Well you really have a clincher there. you sure showed me.

Like i said, he played everyone for fools. All these promises of making "America great again". Cute slogan. Making America great again would involve getting some of that wealth out of the establishment's hands.
Most people don't know s*** about politics so they'll go for the guy with the most charisma. That's the only way neoliberals get elected.


Not you though right, you're plugged into reality, you can see through it all. Trump was so charismatic he was the least popular candidate in US political history.

AAAAnd now we are in open conspiracy theory territory.

That post, where you present a well reasoned coherent argument, it is out there Vash.

I WANT TO BELIEVE
05:01pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2159 posts
Just because I found fault with:

"Trump won because he convinced a bunch of people who benefit from neo-liberalism (but hate it) he was actually anti-neo-liberalism (while being obviously neo-liberal) and so got them to vote against their own self interest in a devilish plan to implement a neo-liberal agenda by using his outstanding charisma (by which you mean his unprecedentedly low approval rating)"

as an explanation for the election result doesn't mean I like him.
06:42pm 30/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38631 posts
The three articles are spot on. The problem with academic leftist research is that it is charged with moral judgement and Joe Average is sick of being judged by academics and commentators who are no better than them. There is really only two ways Joe Average can manifest their dissatisfaction with these preaching institutions: 1) do not associate with them and 2) reject political structures supporting them.

Safe Schools is an excellent example of morally charged intervention - if you don't like/accept trans queer people you are a bad person. An anti-bullying campaign in general would have been far more constructive. This then takes the isolationist outlook away from trans and encourages them to be considered like every other person, instead of this IM QUEER IM SPECIAL I NEED A PROGRAM.

That is exactly what mainstrream Australia is sick of. And "progressives" don't realise that the more they use value charged language the more mainstream disinterested people will rail against their causes. As with all sales, high pressure tactics don't work, the slow burn is best. And now the US has a highly skilled businessman and negotiator in the top seat the high pressure leftist bullying tactics will crash and burn dismally. Trump has a rhetoric which connects directly with the voters and unashamedly rejects political correctness.

It is refreshing to see the liberal elites have the door shut in the face of their agenda of special interests.
I've tried to reply to this a few times but haven't been able to press submit. Is this genuinely what /you/ think or are you just interpreting on behalf of "mainstream" Australia?
07:56pm 30/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25572 posts
Gotta say that post-truth stuff really strikes a chord with me. I really don't understand how certain people can say certain things and get away with them. Reading some of those Trump things from viper's link... how does a person like that get in charge? Because this person promises them certain things, and it is worth overlooking those terrible things for the hope of them ever happening? One example of something they'd be overlooking; Trump mocking a disabled person because this person said things about him he didn't like. Is that not the worst kind of bullying? What sort of piece of s*** hypocrite would compromise like that? And that's one tiny example out of literally hundreds.

The funny thing infi is that a lot of progressive bullying as you put it occurs not because people break political correctness protocol, but because they're simply incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Once all avenues of discussion have been exhausted and you're walking through your own footmarks there's pretty much nothing to do but say whatadumbc***. Then you start to wonder why is this person suchadumbc*** and you start to notice certain areas they tend to be dumb in. Guess which areas you're dumb in?

Political-correctness being some sort of problem that needs to be quashed by a lying sexual predator AT ALL COSTS is just another strawman in the endless fields of strawmen you have created in a place I like to call Strawmania.
10:57pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2160 posts
i don't see political correctness or progressive bullying on that list. Infact, it seems moral decline, which is something progressive policy tackles, is something alot of people are concerned with.


You really are the gift that keeps on giving. Either that are you are approaching god level troll.

I'm sure the average Chinese person in china is worried about a lack of progressive policy implementation when they talk about "Moral Decline". "Moral Decline" is an archetypal conservative concern.

Viper, this is the thing that I think we have a big problem with. I think there are many people like vash, and people who are much much worse than vash. Convinced utterly, with dubious credibility, of their moral superiority.

the brexit debate, was dominated by morally charged language from the remain side. So was Hillary's campaign.

If you aren't reading that together with Trump's factual inaccuracy I think you are doing it really wrong.

The two other things you need to keep in mind when thinking about "post-truth".
1. the mainstream media is having a crisis of credibility/trust. Google it. Nobody gives a f*** what CNN etc say anymore so this would be your first pit stop in a search for truth. Difficult to establish the facts when your stuck in the liar's paradox.
2. the mainstream media are industrial grade fine purveyors of the fake-news they now rile against.
07:00am 01/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2161 posts
Nice one vash, you had a brain explosion but you can't quote mine me so you are attacking a hypothetical conservative.

admin's can I have another vash please? I think I've broken this one.

But I hope everyone saw what happened there. Moral condescension tends to evoke very polarized responses. Vash just try and take a moment to think about what you did in response to my post, where I didn't even call you immoral, just not morally superior, and then think about the kind of response your sermonizing might provoke in someone who disagrees you. Then attempt to extrapolate to the election.

I'd rather this "moral superiority" thinking rampant than a chance of another uprising of a right wing nationalist like hitler.

On that note, I'm going to invoke Godwin's law. This conversation is over vash.
01:38pm 01/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2162 posts
I think the Chinese concern for moral decline is somewhat different to our version, given that the value of life there is so low people literally walk around people dying in the street. Gender fluidity might be a bit further down their list!


If moral decline in China doesn't mean something like "traditional values are being eroded by modern decadence" I will be *extremely* surprised. The point I was making was vash was so wrapped up in his own moral code he said more of my moral code is the answer to that.

Yeah I agree the left v right 'moral fracture' is a key factor in this thing, and the backlash against the militant left's rabid holier than thou admonishing is legit. Along with the deepening anti-establishment sentiment and the disadvantages of globalism that a bunch of people are experiencing. It's a strange thing though, as the surveys show that people don't disagree on the progressive issues, especially the majority in the US. They voted positively down ballot on a bunch of those issues.


Not that strange though when you think about it, if everyone is more or less in agreement, the holier than thou attitude is likely to have a more pronounced effect. Taking gay marriage as an example, I know that it hurt Hillary to decry people who are against it, because she was until quite recently. Same with Obama. Further I think it hurt her with people who are for gay marriage. Like the smoker who just quit, but haaates cigarettes.

Rejection of main stream media is a misnomer as more often than not the people who so loudly champion that rejection get their news from 'alternative news' sources that are actually just fake news. This is a yuuuuge issue, the information wars will be a big thing.


Yeah, I'm skeptical about that, Gallup has been tracking it a while now, and while in the wake of trump I fully appreciate the irony of referring to polls, I don't really see an alternative. It appears to be tanking to me.

anecdotally didn't jeff zucker say something like "if we made a mistake it was we gave trump too much air time". There is an unmistakable wiff of elitism in there. The implication is the unwashed masses if exposed won't be able to control themselves.

As I said earlier I don't claim to have a full explanation or even fully understand what happened.

But I am confident that the post-truth stuff is missing the mark. If only because Trump was so obviously inconsistent throughout the campaign, the idea people have been duped strikes me as implausible on its face. I remain to be convinced people are voting on the strength of his policies. I can't remember where I read it but his supporters appear to be taking him seriously, but not literally. So then the question becomes what are they taking seriously about him?

The more plausible explanation is there are rational reasons (perhaps even guided from false assumptions but equally maybe not) I, and the liberal media at least don't properly understand. The Guardian really don't get it. At all. I haven't read a persuasive article on trump there yet. large amounts of moral hectoring though.

France's upcoming election will be another bellwether.


This is the concern for me. If Le Penn wins and a "frexit" happens I think it is curtains for the EU.

The thing that has worried me about Trump (and I lump the rise of Jeremy Corbyn (its a talk for another day but what he is doing to UK labour is reprehensible) and Bernie Sanders squarely in that box) and Brexit is the distinct "watch it all burn" feeling I get from it all. FWIW I think Hillary really was the most qualified person to have ever run for the job. I think she would have been a good president. But she was also as a result probably the most establishment candidate ever to have run (and consider her embrace of identity politics in that for a second). That's the truth the post-truth talk isn't dealing with. Considering everything else irrelevant is different from believing obvious lies.

Anywho, thanks for the articles. Good chat.
08:24pm 01/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38635 posts
the brexit debate, was dominated by morally charged language from the remain side.
Hmm. Here's the actual voting guide I have here from the Brexit vote. I don't know how to quantify the moral charginess of these positions but I kinda think they're roughly equivalent.

FWIW from the point of view of someone living in London I don't think there was morally charged language from the Remainers, but maybe it was different outside of the city.
02:43am 02/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38637 posts
Jeez louise, I don't know what coverage you were watching then Trog. The leavers were tarnished with a pretty hefty bigot/racist/xenophobic or stupid brush from superior remaininers by most accounts. The overall coverage and national discussion was pretty bad I thought, similar to the US election but it didn't descend quite as badly as that did. I have friends that are leavers and remainers, and it's all been rather horrible and bitter tbh.
I don't have a TV and I only read the occasional thing on the BBC about it. I voted Remain but never felt too emotionally invested in the outcome as I don't plan to be here forever, so I didn't follow it too closely.

When you say "by most accounts" though, it sounds like you're talking about stuff you heard, rather than stuff you witnessed...?
05:35am 02/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38638 posts
I consumed pretty much all the coverage available across multiple mainstream and alternative media outlets, not to mention partaking in many a bitter debate with various friends and colleagues.
Yeh, it's pretty easy to imagine you getting exposed to more extreme viewpoints more commonly. I had many discussions with London-based friends (mostly imports but a few actual British people, of which as far as I can tell there are barely any in London) and they were all pretty casual. I personally think my experience embodies the typical person who lives in London; they weren't going to be online reading vitriol from Leave f***wits and abusing them, because they genuinely didn't think it was likely.
Both of these themes are turning out to be far more complicated when trying to ascertain the real reasons for the result.
I subscribe to Agent K's theory: "People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Markets bucked up here today on the news that the UK might start pay for access to the EU single market. I thought this was f*****g hilarious.
06:37am 02/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2163 posts
The economics must be playing some role, I accept that. But I'm not sure what and I don't think it is the driving force. If I had to place it, I would say it is exacerbating cultural concerns. (for example, Hillary roped in Jay Z and Katy Perry. I think that was a huge mistake, and a ham fisted way to appeal to the common person. The issue was they all go on to talk about privilege. The multi-millionaires chastising ordinary people about their "privilege".) If income inequality is really driving it, I think you need to explain both Hollende and Corbyn's terrible polling numbers. I think the answer lies in cultural concerns, which is why I'm skeptical on Bernie being a better option than Hillary. The first 15 minutes of the second debate trump is regarded to have won (I disagree, I thought it was a mess, but its seems most folks thought he won). All he did was say to hillary if ya coulda, ya woulda. That applies a fortiori to Bernie. Add to that his membership of the communist party when he was a uni student. That's all she wrote folks. TBH I think Joe Biden would have been the best bet. He is able to channel that earthy wisdom speak. I think his gaffe prone nature may have actually been an asset this time around. Plus he is from Scranton. Plus he is Obama's VP and Obama's approval is pretty good.

I think post-truth covers all of that in a way, as it's essentially about making decisions on emotion rather than agreed fact, or moreover making your own facts within your own worldview (what is an agreed fact or objective truth?) - it's firmly into philosophy territory but I've had conversations with pro Brexit and Trump people who flat reject objective truth like that.


I really don't think this is accurate. What part of Hillary is an institutional player is not an objective truth?

When you look at the obscene wealth inequality it's not really that surprising, that's what Bernie tapped into as well. One could almost think we're heading towards revolution territory, and it will be televised!


I also reject the wealth inequality argument. Firstly, when we talk of post truth this talk of the 1% is right at the top of my list.

Income distribution is skewed in the US, but lets not mince words they narrowly avoided a depression. Wage growth was always going to take a little while to get going when you account for the inflationary effect of trillion's of dollars of bonds being issued. Wage growth has been picking up this year with Obama using standard economic techniques. You'd also need to explain the growth of something similar here where income distribution is much more equitable.

The other big thing that makes no sense from a income distribution point is that people on the higher end of the curve voted for Trump (ie the people it is skewed in favour of), while people on the lower end voted for Hillary.

It's also interesting that China's economy is going pretty well, and they are having concerns about Moral Decline.

Boris Johnson spoke at length about not having to leave the common market. I think most people for the most part accept that open economies produce more wealth for more people. I'm also pretty confident people accept that manufacturing has gone to Asia and it isn't coming back. The only way to compete with Asia is through productivity gains which tend to eliminate the need for labour.

the other reason I think the neo-liberal argument is missing the point, is the presence of the immigration confounding variable. The EU is a neo-liberal project. It is working for the free movement of capital and labour.

So free trade and free movement of people tend to stalk the land together, and as such I think are easily conflated or ignored in favour of the other.

Immigration has been a continuous theme in both trumps and the brexit rhetoric. and as you point out yourself, seems to be trog's experience and it was certainly mine, London is an English city by pure force of geography. It is radically different in terms of culture from the rest of the country.

So while it is true most of its money is generated through free trade (and thus may explain the brexit vote), it is also true that the population of london, by and large hold different values altered by high immigration.(which probably also explains the brexit vote, a bunch of immigrants aren't likely to vote to kick themselves out). *edit* put another way, London achieved its integration of immigrants (which it does very well in my view) at the expense of culturally isolating itself from the rest of the country, that doesn't lend itself to a stable outcome.

It shouldn't need to be stated, but I am a pro-immigration guy, because I see it as a net benefit, but there is a research into what it does to social cohesion. This body of research is almost never referred to in the mainstream media, and never mentioned by labor or the greens or the libs really.

So it does not follow, that the "post-truth" we are talking about is subjective and emotional. I think we are talking about objective truths (largely) unacknowledged by the media, academic and political classes.

When you look at Hollende's approval, what do you propose is killing it? He is a left wing socialist, his economic policies should be a workers paradise, but he enjoys an approval rating of about 4%. Paris and Nice happened on his tenure though.

here is another example of manipulation of facts which don't fit into post truth well. It's the project so I accept it's not "news" per se, but Carrie Bickmore and Waleed Aly have both gotten golden logies so their mainstream appeal is undeniable.

The project had a 10 minute discussion showing this photo complete with Carrie crying, saying it could be her son. And it's a heartbreaking image to be sure.
http://static.reuters.com/resources/media/global/assets/images/20150903/20150902_163244720150903003956.jpg

But so is this one and they have never shown it.
https://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Nice-Attack-Casulaty-Doll-Reuters.jpg

I think we both know why. Once elicits sympathy for Muslims, the other not so much. One was killed in a tragic accident, the other was murdered celebrating the anniversary of "liberte, egalite, fraternite". Ironically enough the rest of that is "ou la mort".

Whether you like it or not, people, not unjustifiably, are connecting the two (as in mass middle-eastern immigration and a rise in terror acts) and most of the mainstream media and nearly all left wing politicians refuse to acknowledged it. Obama won't use the word Islamic terrorism.

tell me this doesn't ring at least a little true:
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder231/65533231.jpg

When they released the Orlando 911 calls, they edited out the dudes pledge to islamic state. Why? To what end? To spare the feelings of Muslims? Just after one perpetrated the worst mass shooting in US history? In an attempt to conceal what everyone already knew anyway?
If that is not a public relations catastrophe, it'll do till one turns up. Contrast it with the coverage dylan roof gets for example. Slightly less worried about upsetting/marginalising southern white Americans with that guy aren't we?

My point is that immigration requires culture shock. It is unavoidable, and when you point it out the left especially have that racism charge loaded on a hair trigger. either that or they plain refuse to have the conversation (because you're racist). and I think this refusal to acknowledge it or to call people who do racist, is a primary driving force in what we are seeing.

I would refer you again to the SPLC calling Maajid Nawaz and anti Muslim extremist.

Meanwhile here is a guardian piece comparing young white men voting for Trump (exercising their democratic constitutionally enshrined right) to young Muslim men traveling to Raqqa to kill people. Makes no mention that Trump improved the republican black vote, and Hispanic vote. Funny that.
09:26am 02/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2164 posts
10:04am 02/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38640 posts
yes and yes
Am I understanding right? You think it's OK for people to discriminate against other people based on something arbitrary like their sexual orientation? And it's OK for people to tolerate and/or even spread these attitudes in our schools?
11:02pm 03/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25573 posts
I specifically said it is not ok to bully and that is what the Safe Schools program should promote
Expect you say things a lot and you're a bit of a dishonest person and it's hard to know whether you actually mean it or not.

You've made a fair few sarcastic and belittling comments in regards to trans-people in this thread and even posted an image suggesting you wouldn't hire them or at the most hide them somewhere in the back. If a trans-person happened to read that how do you think it would make them feel? You say you're against bullying and people should be courteous in the exact same thread where you have displayed the antithesis of that very behaviour.

edit: even this

I identify as an attack helicopter but I don't expect people to refer to me as an attack helicopter.


Is a dumb as s*** comment equivelent to the we shouldn't allow gay marriage because then people would marry their dogs. In the very post where you try and suggest bullying is bad and we should be courteous.
05:24pm 04/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38641 posts
Apropos of nothing, I wish there was a browser extension that ran everything people typed through a logical fallacy tester so they could check it before they hit submit; I wonder if machine learning could do that

In other news, Dan Rather made this great post about "post-truth" where he incredibly politely points out how reality works. I thought of [edit: typo] it when I again tried and failed to reply to infi's post but it touches on deconstruction of the term "liberal elites" that seems to be a popular term of condescension.
08:58pm 04/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25574 posts
Once upon a time an expert was wrong. Because of this we should now disregard the opinion of all experts and consider them being an expert a negative because an expert may be wrong again.

Now, since we're disregarding the opinion of experts, whose opinion are we regarding? Ourselves I guess. Mighty noble and all, but running an entire country is kind of complicated and there is no one person out there including you (when I say you I am referring to me, the correct answer, is you) that has all the know-how to do so. How to fix this conundrum.

I know. I will consider the opinion of experts! Of course I just won't blindly listen to the first one I hear from, but will listen to a few and form an opinion from that. The reason I do this is because it is indeed possible for them to have their own vested interests, their own hidden agendas. Fortunately I know how think critically and when processing this new information will be able to have some idea how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Would really suck if I didn't know how to critically think. Then I'd pretty much be forced to rely on my gut instinct. On what I think sounds right and best melds with my own world view. People'd think I'm a real dummy.
02:59am 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38642 posts
(I guess until they eat the wrong apple and some higher power kicks them both out).
ahahah
Obviously that's an example taken to the extremes.
I dunno how extreme it is - it looks like a pretty common prisoner's dilemma
Better is a system that holds some rights of the individual as inviolate and saves the rest for democratic decision.
Literally exactly the model of the Constitution of the United States which Australian conservatives love to hold up as the shining beacon of perfection, right up until the point that it conflicts with their narrative
09:20pm 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38643 posts
People are free to do whatever they want (short of physically harming others), but they are not entitled to expect OTHER people to indulge their personal identity fantasies. (How DARE you quesiton my identity as an attack helicopter.) I don't care if you are trans or a Brony or a Democrat - your money is the same colour and if you talk nice to me I'll talk nice to you.
The dismissive and sneeringly condensing way you talk about the sexual orientation of others is kind of weird, especially as I genuinely don't think you have any problems with homosexuals. But your flippant dismissal of it being a choice looks identical to typical refusal to acknowledge that sexuality is not a choice. What right do you have to tell people how their sexuality works? What right do you have to tell people that they can't pick and choose? What line is too weird to cross?

I know, I know, tax dollars enabling them. But tax dollars occasionally /need/ to support minorities - even when some of those minorities are genuine f***wits! That is the occasional price of ensuring actual liberty for everyone, especially in times of social change. And like it or not society has changed in the last couple of decades; we might as well just get used to it and move on. AND, it's only going to get worse as technology gets better. Imagine a world in which gender fluidity is ultimate; where people can take a pill and then a few days later they've flipped sexes?! It's sci fi now but it seems totally inevitable to me.

(I know you don't care much about religion but I bet if you started talking to other people in your political circles about dropping similar taxpayer funded protection for religious groups many of them would lose their s***. If you want to worry about taxpayer-funded protection rackets I feel like organised religion would be a much more productive low-hanging delicious fruity target. It is hard for me to take "conservative" outrage seriously about this kind of thing when they demonstrate a completely different level of tolerance for their own pet moral causes. )
When groups begin to advocate entitled behaviour or positive discrimination you can be damn sure I will not be so polite. Just get on with your damn life and stop making a show about it.
[below is copied and pasted from one of my drafts to your earlier post because it seems appropriate here]

This almost makes me wish the Internet had existed back when women were trying to get the vote, or when we were trying to abolish slavery, or when we were trying to decouple religion from government, and those other times where minorities had to fight for their civil liberties, just so we could look back on the comments from "Joe Average" to find out how desperately they tried to rationalise why they didn't want disadvantaged group X to get whatever advantage it was perceived they were getting.

Except obviously that would be terrible beyond words.
trog: the problem with Dan Rather's article is that he reduces every public policy question to relying in experts - however experts f*** up all the time, experts are not elected and have no accountability, experts have agendas of their own which include government funding. If you have a blind reliance in experts you will also then have a blind reliance in a socialist autocratic government controlled by a set of administrators you trust 100%.
This is just another slippery slope; noone is saying you should have a "blind reliance on experts". The vast majority of scientists will cheerfully admit the limitations of their knowledge, unlike basically every politician, out of some misguided (but obviously successful) instinct that blathering on about s*** you know nothing about from the gut is a more appropriate substitute.

But there are some things that are just not up for debate in the scientific realm. Deferring to scientific opinion is, because of attitudes like this, being seen as some sort of capitulation to these "west coast liberal elites", instead of what it actually is - making decisions based on informed opinion and evidence. That is, to me at least, Dan Rather's point, and any attempt to argue otherwise is just dissembling as part of the War on Knowledge.

You are worried about people pushing agendas. The War on Knowledge is simply the best vehicle for unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals. We're in a period of literally unprecedented peace, wealth and health for most of the planet, largely because we as a species have embraced the power of science. People are very happy to pretend experts aren't a thing while they're cramming their opinions into a computer they carry in their pocket that is part of a worldwide communications network.
Furthermore, many areas of public policy relate to society's mores and morality. "Experts" in these situations just tout their own agenda - they are advocates.
True "experts" (now I'm doing it! although not sarcastically, illustratively) in the social sciences do not base their comments on an agenda. I'd say it's rare that they even give a s***; they are just studying it. Cherry picking a handful of studies on gender issues that are arguably stupid doesn't invalidate the entire scientific establishment.

But some experts are actually experts because they've spent half their life (or more) learning what they know about a subject. It is quite possible that if they have an agenda, it is based on their knowledge and experience (see: previously referenced lead in gasoline), and not (for example) some horrible "liberal elite" plot to destroy businesses or "morality" because of some sense of misguided hippy ideals.
09:33pm 05/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25576 posts
Burning the countries flag should be dealt with harshly such as a 5-10 year prison sentence.
Now if I could just stop you for a second. Is this a thing you have just typed on an internet forum in an exasperated state of nationalism or is it something you actually believe? If you had a 5-10 year prison sentence yes/no button in front of you and an unlimited amount of time to think about it, what would you push?

Don't you find it kind of ironic how you will lament people of muslim faith pushing their religion onto others when you're so eager to push your nationalism on people? I've given you the out to say you were just exaggerating and I know you'll take it, but you've suggested a life ruining prison term for someone burning a piece of cloth with some patterns on it. That's insane and dumb.
10:19pm 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38644 posts
10:45pm 05/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25579 posts
surely some form of punishment is warranted
Public nuisance sounds about right.
03:18am 06/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38647 posts
Vash i took the test you posted. I'm a little surprised i'm that far left i thought I'd be a bit more central
heh pretty sure this is the most common response for things like that. I do wonder if there is a way to test the bias in the questions a little more effectively to try to neutralise any effect there
Public nuisance sounds about right.
What if I'm burning the flag in the privacy of my own home?!

I think it's a d*** move to burn the flag but I think it's much much much more important to have the liberty to do so.
03:47am 06/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2166 posts
True "experts" (now I'm doing it! although not sarcastically, illustratively) in the social sciences do not base their comments on an agenda. I'd say it's rare that they even give a s***; they are just studying it. Cherry picking a handful of studies on gender issues that are arguably stupid doesn't invalidate the entire scientific establishment.

But some experts are actually experts because they've spent half their life (or more) learning what they know about a subject. It is quite possible that if they have an agenda, it is based on their knowledge and experience (see: previously referenced lead in gasoline), and not (for example) some horrible "liberal elite" plot to destroy businesses or "morality" because of some sense of misguided hippy ideals.


Except that just is not true Trog. The concept that gender, and even biological sex are "social constructs" is widely accepted in gender theory and has purchase in the broader social sciences.

Again I'd invite you to look at real peer review. But also google replication crisis in psychology. Those true experts live in Scotland I guess.

but here is a study that is enjoying success in replication.

High intelligence people and experts can be more susceptible to ad hoc rationalization. or rationalization of ones prejudices.


You can't say this with a straight face:

You are worried about people pushing agendas. The War on Knowledge is simply the best vehicle for unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals. We're in a period of literally unprecedented peace, wealth and health for most of the planet, largely because we as a species have embraced the power of science. People are very happy to pretend experts aren't a thing while they're cramming their opinions into a computer they carry in their pocket that is part of a worldwide communications network.


And have even remotely looked into it. I wouldn't even disagree really, just who you identify as the people doing this
unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals.


Gender theorist can't explain why most women are females and most men are males.

Gender theorists discover menstruation isn't natural but in fact gendered.

Gender theorists discover laws of science are a colonial construct.

Gender theorists discover gender is an invention of western colonialism.

I can go all day buddy. These are peer reviewed trog so far by posting six articles we have gotten approval from at least 24 leading gender scholars. some of those papers have been cited over 100 times. What number would you accept is no longer cherry picking.

So in relation to safe schools this:
But your flippant dismissal of it being a choice looks identical to typical refusal to acknowledge that sexuality is not a choice

Bears almost no relationship to anything scientific. As such one may be rightly skeptical about it's therapeutic value.

Apropos of nothing, I wish there was a browser extension that ran everything people typed through a logical fallacy tester so they could check it before they hit submit; I wonder if machine learning could do that


I wonder if a post comparing expert advice on cell phone batteries and medical advice to accepting expert advice on sociology in an opinion about post-truth would have made it past that?

The economist seems to think otherwise. I'd say it a pretty good bet if you think you theory is sooooo complicated the general public can't grasp it but it is still in their interests, it's more likely your wrong. In relation to the EU and brexit, the UK voted to go in, did they understand their interests then or not?

But secondly if you're not even willing to attempt to be persuasive, which the remain camp were not, you got a problem in a democracy.
08:03am 06/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2167 posts
Here you go trog.

Gender scholars discover computers are actually men in drag pretending to be women.

7/28

Experts, true blue Scottish experts.
07:29am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2168 posts
Gender scholars discover Israeli sperm banks are a Zionist plot.

8/32
07:31am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2169 posts
Gender scholars discover women lie about not being oppressed.

9/36
07:33am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2170 posts
red pill and friends are not designing mandatory "anti bullying" classes.

Don't talk to me about a non-problem when I'm talking about an actual one.
12:08pm 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2172 posts
You won't win over people to your arguments if you devalue them


Kinda my point.
12:38pm 07/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38649 posts
I can go all day buddy. These are peer reviewed trog so far by posting six articles we have gotten approval from at least 24 leading gender scholars. some of those papers have been cited over 100 times. What number would you accept is no longer cherry picking.
Anyone can write a paper about anything. Almost anyone can get a paper published in a journal, too (which is why we have impact factors). Citations are basically retweets; they are not a measure of any sort of scientific accuracy - articles might have citations because they're being torn to shreds by other articles.

Part of being a politician or creating policy should be about identifying and embracing experts in their chosen fields, not outright rejecting them. You can cherry pick papers all day and throw them at me but it won't affect the fact that there are experts in certain fields whose opinions are worth more than others.

I've just realised I'm sitting here trying to convince someone that experts are a thing and we should pay attention to them, so I'm going to stop now. You can let a small handful of gender-based nutbaggery shake your faith in the scientific process if you want.

In any case; I'm not replying (or reading) the rest of your post; I was replying to infi - I actually enjoy swapping posts with him (and, amazingly, Faceman) because I feel like they are at least working from within a narrative. Your posts have recently just taken on an inflammatory, point-scoring tone and I find I don't enjoy replying to them even when you drop such obvious low-hanging fruit like an opportunity to explain your misconceptions about how the scientific world actually works.

Rather than continue how about, the next time I'm in Australia I buy you a beer out at UQ and we sit down with a bunch of my social science PhD buddies out there and I can watch you have a conversation with actual experts about how science works? They are much better positioned to explain it than I am.
08:51pm 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2180 posts
I've just realised I'm sitting here trying to convince someone that experts are a thing and we should pay attention to them.


That is not what I am discussing trog. I am discussing when you might consider taking expert advice and when you might not. and when insistence on relying on them may be a cop out, or even damaging. or more broadly when they might undermine their own ability to give persuasive advice.

one good touch stone is willingness to explain specialist knowledge (which is something someone like Neil Degrasse Tyson is rightly celebrated for). Hence your post to Dan Rather is such a large non-sequitur it makes one wonder who is playing the point scoring game, you are so keen to accuse me of. I don't know about you but biased medical advice isn't one of the things I noticed on the campaign trail. Didn't notice the chemistry of batteries being a hot button topic either. But in terms of economic theory, this must always be balanced against the fact physicists explained the mechanics of the Higgs boson and convinced Thatcher to spend money on CERN.

I point this all out as a time when a party founded by actual nazi's only getting 46% of a popular vote is something to celebrate. Apropos of nothing naturally.

I actually enjoy swapping posts with him (and, amazingly, Faceman) because I feel like they are at least working from within a narrative.


What does that even mean? I can't see what it means outside of an ability on your behalf to intellectually compartmentalize them being preferable to not being able to.

Either way I'd welcome your correction of my:

misconceptions about how the scientific world actually works.


and I would be deeply interested to hear your Social Science PhD buddies views on the influence of Foucault and Derrida and the use of impenetrable language in social sciences. If you have an email address to pm with an introduction I genuinely would be very very interested.
09:31pm 07/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38652 posts
politicians have to reflect the will of the people - not the will of experts.
They can reflect the will of the people on matters of choice and opinion, but not on matters of fact and reality. Politicians are elected to lead; sometimes they have the choice of doing what the people want, but sometimes they need to make hard choices - often at the expense of their careers - to do something that is necessary. (It might interest you to know that I was taught this lesson by a mate whose father was a senior Liberal party member; until that point I used to think Internet voting / direct democracy was the best thing we could aim for.)

In any case, for every "export" that wants their "opinion" to unfailingly dictate political policy, how far would we have to go to find some complete amateur who feels the exact same way??!! The only way to look at those decisions (imho) is as [I think] you do - through the frame of civil liberties. But the moral calculus involved is complicated as f***.
12:31am 08/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38655 posts
Interesting that Hillary won 54% of the popular vote but still lost
The interesting thing to me is learning about the Electoral College and how it works. This is the first time I've ever really paid attention to it.

The TLDR is not all votes in the US are equal. The vote of someone in California is not technically worth as much as the vote of someone in, say, Ohio, because of the way the Electoral College votes work.

It actually makes sense I think.

At least one elector has decided he's not going to vote for Trump. I think Moore might be on to something but I feel like the EC votes will still come in for Trump. But I guess it's important to note that part of being "for" the EC system is acknowledging the fact that the EC might ultimately not "let" a candidate win.
10:51pm 08/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38656 posts
The EC makes sense only in the context of the USA being a Union of States rather than just a nation of citizens.
Yeh but literally almost /everything/ about the US only makes sense in the context of it being a Union of States. I didn't quite grasp exactly how big a deal this was until I lived there. It's basically Europe!

this slashdot thread I thought was really interesting. I am not convinced the EC is a great idea but the case made for it is based on it being a Union and in that context, it makes sense.

All that said - pretty much everything about the union I think has been totally f***ed by (I hate that I'm going to say this) the military industrial complex. The amount of federal taxes that the average taxpayer has to pay that goes straight into defence the military is way out of wack with reality.

I suspect if the EC decides to bounce Trump (staggeringly unlikely, surely) everyone bemoaning the EC will suddenly be like "well, yes, that's what it's supposed to do, well done those people" :)

I'm not saying I agree with it, I just can see why the system is the way it is & why Americans tolerate it. Having lived in the midwest & I've experienced first hand what it's like to be in a "flyover state" from people I visited on the east/west coasts. The smaller states have a massive inferiority complex & will be loathe to give up any rights.
09:27am 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38658 posts
If a government can't run out of money, how do you explain Zimbabwe?
Well... from the other side, if a government /can/ run out of money, how do you explain the United States?! :)

Zimbabwe ran out of money because it's a failed state though, right? At least economically speaking. Noone will fund their debt because it seems like a terrible bet. But people are still happy to play the long game with the US despite their ludicrous debt levels because they're probably not going to implode any time soon. Different countries have /significantly/ different access to credit depending on a number of factors (their economy, their political situation, etc).

To me it seems completely reasonable to say that you can run out of "money". To say that it's "literally impossible" like that article says is true to the extent that it's "literally impossible' the government could stop printing cash, but it's quite possible that cash would become totally worthless on the international stage and then we'd end up like Zimbabwe, right?

I mean it seems /practically/ impossible that this would happen, but not literally. WHERE'S TAGGS!
10:10pm 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38659 posts
But wouldn't the long-term implications detriment the economy?
I would guess that the detriment would mainly come about only if there started to be doubt the debt would be repaid - but before that happens I think there are several fairly large warning signals along the way (drop in credit rating for the country, devaluation of currency as you point out). I guess "good" countries will respond to those signals and react to save their economies.

(related: there is a great near-future scifi-ish Neal Stephenson book called Interface) in which the United States decides they are going to just write off all their debt. This irritates all the many powerful organisations that are owed staggering amounts of money so they conspire in a plot to take over the presidency to reverse this policy so they get their money back. It is pretty awesome.)
10:45pm 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38660 posts
Like with the extreme right, I think it's more the extreme left that do a good enough job of making people think the rest of their side is weird
04:44am 10/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38663 posts
more NBN fun with news of a new NBN tax. Surreal.
12:51am 13/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2184 posts
Well... from the other side, if a government /can/ run out of money, how do you explain the United States?! :)


Not quite from the other side though is it. USD transactions account for 60% of global GDP. being the worlds reserve currency has it's benefits. IE purely domestic assessments maybe apt to mislead RE strength of the dollar.

Just a thought.

Apropos of nothing, maybe an inflammatory one that doesn't fit inside a narrative particularly well.
05:33pm 13/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38665 posts
Not quite from the other side though is it
Yes well that's why I had the smiley face and then went on to explain the difference between Zimbabwe and the United States in my own post not two lines away from the line you quoted
it's worth is derived from the value of the country that issues it:
Yes well that's why I had the smiley face and then went on to explain the difference between Zimbabwe and the United States in my own post not two lines away from the line you quoted

if I was an actual troll this would be too easy, but I'm really just trying to write interesting things. The question of the staggering US debt isn't just coming to light in my witty banter; there has been much news this year of places like China getting out of the US debt market. I don't follow it that closely but there has also been talk of what the Trump presidency means (history would indicate probably way more debt). So while they're no Zimbabwe (obviously, right?) the question is how wide that money tap will be opened from now on.
08:22pm 14/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38666 posts
The US needs to recreate its infrastructure revolutions of the past e.g. the railways and the Interstate, instead of giving its taxpayer funds away on porkbarreling and welfare.
I (probably obviously) completely agree with this - but what I find interesting now is so do a lot of Americans (well, at least anecdotally, perhaps not evident from the recent election).

I was very interested to talk to many Americans and hear how they wish there was more spending on things like roads & rail for example (especially in the midwest which has basically no rail). (Obviously everyone wants more spending on healthcare too.)

There is also a push in many tech areas in a push to government provided broadband/fibre services as an infrastructure project because they're completely sick of private monopolies.

A lot of people still haven't resolved their cognitive dissonance between small govt/free market/capitalist approaches to problems and the fact that in many cases in the US they have just been spectacular failures for consumers, but watching the increasing push towards more large-scale government projects like this has been really interesting.
08:38pm 14/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38668 posts
I'm curious as to what history you're referring to.
Republican presidents that pitched small government and then went on to spend zillions (i.e., Reagan, I guess). But I mean, really, any president except Clinton, right?

It'd be great to think Trump will be different but who f*****g knows what he's going to do. It's basically popcorn time.
It's all well and good to wish for a govt provided service and then discover it's utterly ineffective - when really the govt should stay the hell out and instead bust open monopolies using their anti-trust laws.
I agree this would be a better starting point for most places in the US but due to the power of money in politics there it seems completely unworkable. The companies that have monopolies know they do because the laws are in their favour and they pay to stay that way. It seems to be impossible to effect change in this regard and it doesn't seem to be getting better.
10:10pm 14/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25581 posts
According to Leonardo in Before the Flood, we need to start a war against cows.
Land clearance and resources used for raising livestock are a large concern when it comes to fighting climate change.
06:27pm 15/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38669 posts
When is the war on cars going to start?
yesterday
07:51pm 15/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2185 posts
Yes third grade students were "compelled" by their own deep understanding of the issues, to mail the letter to the MP the teacher left on their desk. their concerns to their local MP.

oh look a nazi reference.
07:34pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2186 posts
Yeah could be that. Could also be their teacher lent on them.
07:47pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2187 posts
I think you can draw a subtle distinction between "today's class is letter writing to the local MP about my pet issue" and religious education. When the kids are compelled to write to their MPS on the evils of abortion we can re-examine. But for the record I don't think state schools should have RE.

As an anecdote, I remember very clearly when I was in about grade three joking about how I wanted to vote for bob hawke and not joh. Not because we were having a detailed political discussion but because we had just found out our teacher was joh's daughter.

Anyway a kid overheard and said he was going to dob on us. I can remember being very worried I was going to get in trouble, but the teacher not only didn't tell me off, but assembled the class and told everyone dobbing on someone for who they vote for was very very bad and the kid who dobbed got in trouble.

different time I guess.

I am stridently against refugee policy, and I find that inappropriate.
07:57pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2188 posts
I absolutely agree RE mandatory detention and Human rights, but I also have an appreciation for the fiendish complexity of the issues.

I also find it a stretch to believe that an 8 year old knew they had a local MP, much less that they could write to them about political grievances.

There is a line between teaching children and exploiting their natural credulity to further a political goal. I find the later the more likely in this case, and to be in poor taste.
09:30pm 16/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25582 posts
I'd much prefer if they used a fictional example. A simple story along the lines of some rich monarch having desperate people come to them for help. The rich monarch could be indirectly responsible for the suffering of the people requesting help. Then instead of providing help, which would have a minimal impact on the kingdom, the monarch instead punishes them for *reasons*. I am not imaginative enough to come up with a reason that would easily fit into any sort of coherent narrative so they might need to hire George R. R. Martin to come up with something there.

Then when the children grow up hopefully this very simple story will resound in their minds. When they see both governments implementing things like it in real life they will be able to recognise how it is a bad thing to torture and imprison people for being brown when all they were ever after was a bit of help.
10:20pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2189 posts
Gee i wonder what newspaper that is?


The Age. No wait, the Guardian.
10:05am 17/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25583 posts
People who think torturing people because they're brown are as bad as pedophiles.
02:12pm 17/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2190 posts
At what point does it become political activism vs just basic human decency?


what does that even mean Vash?
05:01pm 17/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2191 posts
You'd be surprised at what children, even younger than that, can reason out. I'm fairly certain, most kids would find it odd to have other children locked up for doing nothing wrong, for listening to their parents.
At least the kids I've talked to about similar stuff have said as much. Including my own, one of my daughters who just finished grade 1 seems to have an emotional understanding that eclipses some of the people on this forum.


I'm sure they were just given the facts and as a free act of "basic human decency" put on a show at a trump rally. They just objectively get it. You'd be surprised at what children can reason out and all.
11:34am 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2192 posts
01:01pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2193 posts
How is kids writing to parliament "caring for their fellow humans"?

I'm sure you can string the point together if you try.
01:50pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2194 posts
Kids hear America needs to be made great again and want to help. Campaign manager tells them how.

Totally how it went down.
02:10pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2195 posts
What does that have to do with anything?
02:20pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2196 posts
way to not answer the question.

the Trump kids just want to help all American kids live in a great America. that's just all they want to do.
02:36pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2197 posts
So the Trump kids might just be parroting what they have been told to say? Maybe their song and dance doesn't reflect a considered political position?
02:55pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2198 posts
Yes the Trump kids *might* have been exploited. just one option of many.

In addition to the drawings they cannily send a letter mentioning "detention-like" conditions to MPs. Expert use of a weasel word that one, these 8 years olds are really something and that drip of raw human emotion has got them writing at the level of a legally aware adult. They go on to mention our foreign aid arrangements.

Just basic human decency to send a letter which strongly implies, but doesn't actually state kids are in mandatory off-shore detention. And suggests increased foreign aid might have a knock on effect for refugee flows.

8 year old children. Yeah you were saying something about critical thinking skills.

Interesting that they draw children behind bars when there aren't any children in off-shore detention camps, they have all been moved to community based detention on the mainland
*edit* or nauru *edit*. Wonder where they got that impression from.
03:43pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2199 posts
The kids were just given the facts and wrote a letter clearly written by an adult.

what planet do you live on.

A teacher abused their position to make an appeal to emotion in a bog standard political petition. That's the whole story.
08:04pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2200 posts
there 100 kids in community based detention on Nauru.

That is not the same as or anything like jail. The ASRC advocates for community based detention as the default option for refugee processing Vash.

We can analyse the best course of action all we want


Adults can, children can't.

you really do live for the facile equivocation don't you. Climate change shouldn't be taught in schools because a teacher abused their position to engage in a explicitly political act on an unrelated issue.

But the short answer to your question is even if you had educated third graders on a complex issue properly (which is probably not possible) a responsible teacher should reject their advance to participate in a petition.

The responsible thing to do would be to send the kid home to their parents and let them do it in their own time. Teachers have absolutely no right to help kids engage politically in the absence of parental permission, and even with that permission should treat with extreme caution.

Jesus H Christ it isn't that hard.
08:48pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2201 posts
Has anyone here said teaching the facts is wrong at any point? Climate change is taught in schools, so your hypothetical should be pretty easy to test vash.

The objection is centered on the extremely unlikely possibility that just teaching the "facts" is what happened in this case (given the principle of the school is a self acknowledged activist), and a petition obviously written at a level far beyond third grade was the "organic result".

But yes, i actually agree with you there, a petition shouldn't have been done without parents permission, considering the many political standings of parents.


Ok good.
09:50pm 18/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25584 posts
That is not the same as or anything like jail.
I'd rather be in jail than Nauru.
10:10pm 18/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25585 posts
Nah, you'll just be murdered by the locals or die of an easily treatable infection instead.
01:03am 19/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2202 posts
Both of those things happened on manus island fpot and were as a direct result of neglect in the camps not community based detention.

You and vash need to make up your mind. Which is it? is detention for children wrong or not.

Life on nauru is all sunshine and lollipops but it isn't detention.

and is that only for the children there as part of the program or would life in jail be better for the native children as well? Cause any time you want to adopt you could put your money where your mouth is.

I don't like the situation, but it is an improvement on what it was.

The kids drew pictures of children behind bars, unless they are going down an experimental route where the bars are a prison for the mind (again impressive for third graders with dropping naplan scores) their teacher lied to them.
07:47am 19/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2203 posts
You can sugarcoat it all you want.


Yeah or you could go all tub girl on a public forum.

They don't live behind bars in a jail cell so if by prison you mean "not a prison" I guess you're right. Freedom of international movement isn't something minors enjoy as a right.

I'm sure the people who have to stay in the detention camps would beg to differ as to whether it's an improvement or not.
01:24pm 20/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38671 posts
That actually sounds like the best possible outcome for the Greens, just like it would have been better for the Republicans if the Tea Partiers had f***ed off into their own party
03:00am 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2204 posts
That actually sounds like the best possible outcome for the Greens, just like it would have been better for the Republicans if the Tea Partiers had f***ed off into their own party


o_0

They are talking about creating a formal faction inside the green party not a new stand alone party. Factional infighting in a party with 10 elected parliamentarians sounds like an unmitigated disaster. It worked a treat for PUP and One Nation is going swimmingly.


Even Marx said Capitalism has its uses


Read any yet Vash?
11:38am 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2205 posts
Workers are the sole source of wealth, but they can be excluded from wealth creation.

Carry on.
01:26pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2206 posts
Your question doesn't understand what capitalism is, because you don't.

Capitalism is about sending goods and services to the person who values them the most. Jobs and growth are incidental to it.

Explain how technology will make that redundant? Even in a post scarcity world the distribution of goods and services will not be exactly equal because people don't value all things equally, as long as humans have different preferences, you will need a system to mediate how they get what they want which doesn't involve hitting each other over the head. Enter capitalism.
01:42pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2207 posts
why can't capitalism survive when a majority have no jobs?

How does that follow from capitalism allocating resources according to who values them most?

Surely you can see that is a non-sequitur.

As long as different people value different things differently you will have room for capitalism.
02:12pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2208 posts
Well, if most people have no jobs, they are unable to obtain resources, in the form of food & shelter.


That does not answer the question vash. Will they still be able to place a value on food & shelter? Then there is still room for capitalism.

The distribution of capital has failed, so, the system has failed.


You mean it might fail if robots take all the jobs at some hypothetical later date.
02:39pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2209 posts
Are you really not understanding it?

How, exactly will allocating resources based on who values them most end when most people are jobless?
03:13pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2210 posts
You mean one alternative which has been comprehensively demonstrated to be a monstrous failure, and the the single greatest crime against humanity in the 20th century.


Have you read any of those? Like a single one?
03:51pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2211 posts
Yeah I wouldn't go roping Einstein into your cause just yet.

And if they think marxism is a viable alternative to capitalism they are obsessed with fairy tales.

You are not blowing anyone's mind with outside the box thinking vash. It is completely uncontroversially in the box. Totally un-radical and utterly reactionary.


I take it you haven't read a single one of them.
04:21pm 23/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38672 posts
I assume Tor works fine too, and would also assume it's perfectly adequate for downloading of .torrent files?
08:21pm 23/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38674 posts
took me about 5mins to find a suitable proxy site without a vpn - lol what's the point?
I wouldn't recommend using random proxy servers. Do the Google DNS trick or use Tor.
03:07am 24/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25587 posts
Yeah robot programmers and technicians will replace the millions of lost jobs. I dont think so, but hopefully im wrong.
You are, because eventually robots will manufacture and program themselves.
03:33pm 25/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38677 posts
If Boys can grow up to be Girls why cant Robots grow up to be Human ?
we've just spent 6000+ years complaining about completely fictional deities taking out their wrath on their human creations so I wonder if perhaps our first instinct if we create our own life forms should not be to just treat them like s***?
03:27am 28/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25588 posts
Trump knows what is required to build a successful America.
His business record indicates otherwise.

Spoiler:
All it shows is that he knows how to build a successful Trump
03:11pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25589 posts
Also yet another death in custody at Manus. Good thing that person didn't drown at sea.
04:24pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25590 posts
Yes, instead of innocent people dying at sea they instead die in detention, or even better, die or become imprisoned somewhere else. So much potency for our refugee program I am literally overdosing on it.
05:29pm 29/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38679 posts
Interesting perspective on housing market
10:13pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25591 posts


The mathematics says we should focus on the bigger problem
I submit that it's possible to take action against poverty and at the same time not lock people up in concentration camps for *reasons*
02:43pm 30/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38680 posts
On another note, I'm disappointed to come on here and struggle to see anything mentioned about the claremont serial killer. For decades he's been a hardcore PC gamer with a hardcore PC and he worked in telecommunications.
I'd never even heard about it until a week or so ago
09:04pm 02/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38681 posts
I broke my no news.com.au link policy and clicked on that and was not disappointed about what a piece of s*** article it was. No mention is made of why there's a lawsuit or what Q Society is.

I started looking into it and it seems like the sort of weirdness that you'd imagine a news.com.au article would write about with no explanation at all; a bunch of claims are made with zero evidence in a couple of Youtube videos (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVPngzSE94o claims "In most Australian abattoirs Muslim males only are employed as slaughterers."), but the gist of it is it's a bunch of people that are sad that Halal certification is costing true blue Aussies more money for their meat than they'd otherwise have to pay if it was just regular old non-religion bulls*** meat.

They are also sad that people that provide Halal certification are making a bunch of money off the process. I would love to hear their thoughts about the money made by the Catholic church, or scientology, or ... etc etc in Australia. I am sure they are very consistent.

This seems like a classic case of the market working exactly as these people would otherwise want (i.e., meat manufacturers know they can make more money by selling halal stuff). I feel like their 2nd goal " Insist on clear labelling " is actually a win-win though ; I feel like both "sides" would be equally happy with this scenario (except possible the meat manufacturers, stuck with another dumb regulatory requirement).
10:14pm 03/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38682 posts
I have come to the massively belated realisation that it's not so much the policies of these people that I object to in many cases. I think strong immigration controls are good. I think (simple!!) regulations showing things that are important to consumers about where their food comes from are good (not convinced religious bulls*** is a burden industry should have to bear though, happy for the market to sort that out, meat manufacturers that want to try to capture the white rage market can print "proudly non-halal" stickers on their produce).

It's actually just the fact that so many people espousing these policies are just total trainwrecks of humanity doing it for the worst possible reasons
10:26pm 03/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38684 posts
I found this article kinda interesting: What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class.

There's a bit that is a bit weird though and it stuck out because I read the exact same sentiment in an SMH article around the same time - it outright says the entire Democratic/progressive policy structure is based around transgender bathrooms, while summarising the Republic strategy in the most positive way possible:
Republicans have one: Unleash American business. Democrats? They remain obsessed with cultural issues. I fully understand why transgender bathrooms are important, but I also understand why progressives’ obsession with prioritizing cultural issues infuriates many Americans whose chief concerns are economic.
11:02pm 03/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2212 posts
so not basic income then?
11:30am 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2213 posts
Does this count as fake news?

Here is an interesting point of view on it.

There's a bit that is a bit weird though and it stuck out because I read the exact same sentiment in an SMH article around the same time - it outright says the entire Democratic/progressive policy structure is based around transgender bathrooms, while summarising the Republic strategy in the most positive way possible:


It doesn't though does it trog. It addresses the more general issue of prioritization of cultural issues over the economic. Transgender bathrooms is just the most prominent example this election cycle.

you used to be cool/able to read.
12:07pm 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2214 posts
the article that is super friendly to the republican working class describes white working class males thusly:

Manly dignity is a big deal for working-class men, and they’re not feeling that they have it. Trump promises a world free of political correctness and a return to an earlier era, when men were men and women knew their place. It’s comfort food for high-school-educated guys who could have been my father-in-law if they’d been born 30 years earlier. Today they feel like losers — or did until they met Trump.


Looking forward to Trump 2020. The lack of self-awareness is simply astonishing.
12:19pm 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2215 posts
capital appreciation and a payment for existing are not the same thing.

Finland isn't trialing basic income.

Basic income is a set amount of money for *every* citizen. You can't judge the inflationary effects without doing that.

It would also be interesting to see how willing they are to give "basic income" to an unlimited number of recent immigrants.
08:14pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38685 posts
For the record trog: Having toured an abbatoir (many years ago) I learned that the first cut must be by a Muslim "priest" (they don't have priests in the Christian sense), for the beast to be considered halal. So the beast is stunned by pneumatic bolt and then its throat cut by the Muslim. Then it is bled out before going onto the chain.

What a fantastic make work scheme.

Finland will scrap the pilot without a doubt. Free money is annoying to people who work.
hey don't get me wrong, I of course think halal food is magic make believe. But if magic make believe is generating more money for meat producers then it's the free market at work, right?! [issues of animal rights aside which are probably very relevant to many people, although even as someone that eats mostly vegetarian now I find it hard to worry too much about, sorry animal people]

edit: wait, I just realised - can't people who care about this halal certification that much to the point that they're prepared to organise an entire conference about it, just eat more bacon? if I could justify, politically, eating more bacon, I would leap at the opportunity.
09:07pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38686 posts
Honestly if you are buying sausages that aren't using pork fat then you are buying s*** sausages anyway and you obviously support gastronomic terrorism.
this is true.

Occasionally I like a lamb or beef sausage to mix things up. I have been going to town on bangers & mash since moving to London. Was in Wales over Xmas and found a place that made sausages that tasted /just/ like the cheap pork ones you get from woolies. It was like a little taste of home (for like 3x the price).
from a libertarian POV live and let live I guess but it make me mad when people buy something certified by god
the best part is though it's certified by some dude that seems to be making a fortune out of doing it! Religion still seems to be the best way to make a s***load of money if you have zero morals
11:00pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38687 posts
Speaking of libertarian stuff: Legal marijuana sales in US 'bigger than dot-com boom'.

Some things missing from the article that I'd /love/ to know:
- estimate of how this has impacted the previously-illegal suppliers of marijuana
- estimate of how many "new" mj smokers there are now as a result of legalisation
01:33am 05/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38690 posts
having to put up with an extra sticker on meat products is possibly the non-est of non-issues
well it is for the people who are responsible for doing it IF they're required by law to suddenly start doing it. They have to order the stickers, find a way to put them on, have QA&compliance to make sure they're being put on & stay on through the product lifecycle, etc.

If it's voluntary then they'll do it if it makes them more money. I think regulation saying they must put a sticker on there so people can avoid buying Halal meat as a protest measure is kind of dumb.
10:24pm 05/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25595 posts
So the Russian interference in the US election is certainly turning out to be a thing.
03:01pm 07/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2216 posts
There's no evidence, and Wikileaks says Russia was not the source, but it's still a thing....


Assange is a stooge, and he can say that without denying Russian involvement, merely that the hackers (not even the hackers really just the people who handed the s*** to him) themselves aren't Russian. Could still be paid and authorized by Russia.

I don't really see a strong need to investigate the hacked servers, the data got out pretty clearly. Seems much more important to determine whose hands the data went through.


Even Trump is accepting Russia was involved now.

I seriously doubt it changed the outcome.
06:27pm 07/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38693 posts

I like this post about the alleged Russia hack from someone in the infosec community: http://blog.erratasec.com/2017/01/dear-obama-from-infosec.html

From what I've read most infosec people are totally happy to believe it was Russia but totally unprepared to do so based on the s***** evidence that has been presented by the govt so far


10:20pm 07/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2217 posts

This is the declassified report the cia etc put forward.

https://www.scribd.com/document/335886606/US-Intelligence-report-on-Russia-s-role-in-DNC-hacks#from_embed

There is little direct evidence of hacking, I'm happy to admit that. Who knows why they are withholding more information, perhaps they don't want certain Russian hackers to know the CIA etc know they are Russian assets.

Putin had the means and the motivation, and s*** got released through people with strong ties to Russian intelligence.

More over, Trump, is accepting their involvement. I'll happily accept that the Dems are overly upset. But that is hardly surprising. Trump accepting it, based on the classified stuff, is pretty damning, because it casts illegitimacy over his presidency. He was flat out rejecting it few weeks back.

My reading of it is, Russia shouldn't be doing that s***, but it wouldn't have been a problem if the Dem's kept their house in order. Wikileaks dumped thousands of emails and the most we got was they were feeding questions to Hillary ahead of time. Hardly Watergate, but still unacceptable.

The issue for me at least is why would anyone be surprised the Dems moved to prevent a populist takeover of their party by Sanders? I'm not sure they are which is why she recovered in the polls. If there was any event which really irretrievably hurt her in my view it was Comey, too close to the election to be recovered from, and if you'll recall he said there was nothing in it in the end. Anthony "Carlos Danger" Weiner got another media spotlight thought. Always entertaining. A man named Weiner has a problem with sending d*** pics? Common.

Not that it matters, but I'd still back Hillary over Trump, Sanders or any others who looked like they had a shot at this election. Politics and corruption are inseparable, all of them, with out exception have some dirt on them. The way Trump is talking of structuring his businesses, it is only a matter of time until a corruption scandal hits.

If Russia had been spreading fake information or lies that might be of concern.


Russia is never not doing that. It's called RT.
09:27am 08/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25596 posts

Trump is just going to shoot from the hip and then be repeatedly forced to eat s*** when he is found out to be wrong.
No he won't. He just flat out denies he is wrong. Even when faced with overwhelming proof he'll continue to do this. His loyal followers do the same. You may notice this tactic being employed by certain members of this forum.

So once four or god forbid eight years of these denials of reality are over we will be left with whatevers left after he's feathered his own and all his mate's nests. It's not going to be funny. It's going to be terrible and real people are going to experience real suffering as a result.
03:55pm 09/01/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13680 posts


You believe that some News Networks are more honest and truthful than others ?
Never fall in love with a Whore.





this response seems like a strawman. porno pete didn't make any claims as to the integrity of other news outlets, he simply replied to your comment "If Russia had been spreading fake information or lies that might be of concern." with a specific example of them doing just that

nevertheless, yes - it's absolutely demonstrable that some news networks are more honest and truthful than others
04:52am 10/01/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13687 posts
seems like another strawman faceman

it's not that I'm explicitly defending the media - I'm saying your assertion that all media outlets are equally dishonest is not only an illogical response in the context of porno pete's comment, but it's demonstrably false. do you understand the difference?
09:52pm 10/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2222 posts
be less of an idiot faceman. Putin "you're never ex KGB" clearly engages in disinformation routinely. Because it's what he is. He has zero redeeming features. and keep in mind any WWIII scenario will end better for the USA than Russia. Putin doesn't want confrontation, and to be frank, Obama was wrong to let him have Crimea. We should have pushed them out of that.

Infi, I accept that the Russian hacking is a convenient excuse. I currently enjoy a post limiter
(i assume from trog "school the employee of a peer reviewed journal on the purpose of peer review" is responsible for that. You used to be cool man. FYI if you point to my links as confusion about science, one of us is, but it isn't me. gender studies is literally the opposite of science.)
for pointing out the democrats obvious and undressed, and currently doubling and tripling down on, failures in this election.

If you respect anything the father of liberalism, john stuart mill, had to say, you can see that this election result is bad. Total control by one side, as we can see from the press (in the left direction), is a fundamentally bad thing.

I mention comey, purely because he did real damage, that was manifestly unfair, with in days of the election. with that said, Hillary won the lotto and couldn't capitalize. She ran against the least electable opponent in US history and lost. I am yet to see even a semblance of self reflection.

If the current trend on the left of identity bulls*** does not end, enjoy 8 years of trump a*******.

FPOT you knowingly nod your head at protestors of the outcome of free and fair elections. You are disaster of a human being, i didn't say you were being lazy RE: the cartoons. I was saying your moral compass is broken and talking about refugees will not change that, no matter how sympathetic. Your opinion, if you believe these d*******s represent anything beyond narcissism, is worth less than nothing.

You like labor. Reconcile bob hawke saying the electorate can be trusted to get the big decisions right, and these protests. tell me how, in spite of massively increased university graduation, the electorate was more informed then than today.

I look forward to A) smug condensation (cause your a moral tribalist (which isn't moral)) B) retarded (yeah I went there) mental gymnastics.
03:34pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25597 posts
It's kind of funny how over the weeks/months you've gone from well typed posts which actually bring up good points to barely comprehensible whining dribble that's almost impossible to parse. I can barely even understand what you're saying to me, or even why you're saying it. Knowingly nod my head at protesters? What d*******s and what narcissism? What the f*** are you talking about? I guess you think my moral compass is broken because I posted a picture of a racist cartoon? I remember that. That's the moment when I first thought this guy is losing his mind over an internet forum discussion. You've been circling the drain ever since.

For the record, I don't support Labor. What gave you that idea?
03:49pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2223 posts
If you're willing to live up to those responsibilities and you're being truly honest with yourselves you'd never vote for those three people and the parties they lead. That's why I can't help but chuckle when people say the democrats are disrespecting democracy by rioting/protesting.


Ring a bell sweet cheeks? They are disrespecting democracy. End of story. The time for persuasion (which is the essence of democracy) has passed.

That's the moment when I first thought this guy is losing his mind over an internet forum discussion.


Maybe that is the case, but equally, that is the moment this I thought this guy is addicted to being offended on other people's behalf (which has zero to do with being moral). And is willing to propagate "racist" material to prove mealy mouthed points.

You are a moral weakling. happy to pile on but unwilling to support you own point of view.

enjoying option A then.
04:37pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2224 posts
read any Marx yet Vash?
04:53pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25598 posts
Oh no, crazy internet ranter #3412 has just accused me of being a moral crusader because I think racism is bad and that asylum seekers shouldn't be tortured. Time to reevaluate my life. I am a disaster of a human being.
05:01pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2225 posts
Oh no the moral high ground has been surrendered to hyperbole.

welcome to the train wreck. you'll walk the "high road" though fpot. Comfortably predicted your response, just keep that in mind.

That's a no then Vash.
05:15pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25599 posts
If you start reading some stuff Vash you too will be able to regurgitate esoteric knowledge without actually having any understanding of it when you get stuck in an argument. It's a very effective tool.
05:22pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2226 posts
Yes because actual knowledge of the things you talk about is clearly a terrible thing. and by "esoteric" you mean the foundational text of the philosophy he espouses as the panacea to all modern woes.
05:27pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25600 posts
Anyone see Trump's dummy spit? This petulant little toff is POTUS lol

Maybe this will be funny.
08:55am 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2227 posts
the election result is the will of the people. JSM would say personal liberties must be protected however the democratic process must also be respected for general law making. i have never bought into the "hostile senate is a good thing" argument.


What I am more driving at is that the left has gotten so poor at persuading, more than the hostile senate. I am a firm believer in the hostile senate however.

I notice the CNN story is falling apart. Good to see they aren't that much better than buzzfeed after all. This whole "fake news" thing hey.
07:20pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25601 posts
the irony of calling someone else a crazy ranter when you advocate unlimited refugee intake.
You'd accuse me of this every time you'd hit rock bottom in a refugee argument. After every lie you repeated was debunked you'd bring this up. And every time I would say no, and explain my actual view on the subject. Then you'd stop posting for a while until a new thing came up and you were confident enough to start posting again.

And here it is again. Strangely just appearing out of the blue this time, though.

It's hard for the left to persuade hard right-wingers because the left only has the truth at their disposal. When people are willing to cling to any lie no matter how fantastic and implausible it may be that they'll defend it to the death then you're really up against something when it comes to changing their mind. How do you reason people out of situations they haven't reasoned themselves into? You can't. It's impossible.

We'll just have to wait till things get so bad that a change is essential. Like what happened with Abbott. Did infi learn from his mistakes then? Nope, he doubled down on his dumb and suggested that the LDP, a more extreme version of Abbott's failed policies, was the way to go. When Trump fails, will he suggest a more extreme version of Trump, or will he learn from his mistakes?
08:23pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2228 posts
It's hard for the left to persuade hard right-wingers because the left only has the truth at their disposal. When people are willing to cling to any lie no matter how fantastic and implausible it may be that they'll defend it to the death then you're really up against something when it comes to changing their mind. How do you reason people out of situations they haven't reasoned themselves into? You can't. It's impossible.


Vash quite likes communism. Just sayin.

more over the idea you have to persuade hard right-wingers is a fallacy. the vast majority of the electorate in Australia and the US aren't hard left or right. This election is a failure to persuade ordinary people of no strong political leanings. or at least be more persuasive than the pussy grabber.
08:49pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25602 posts
If you cast a vote for Trump or Hanson it could be argued you've instantly qualified for immediate hard-right wing status.
09:23pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2229 posts
So the millions of people who must have voted for Obama (and voted trump this time) became immediate hard-right wingers?
09:45pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25604 posts
Not following you sorry.

edit: makes sense now that you've edited.

Well, why not? How can you possibly describe yourself as a rational human being if you've cast a vote for Donald Trump? I guess they've either instantly converted, or they're stupid enough to believe his lies so they're well on the road to becoming one. What other explanations are there?
10:03pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2230 posts
Hilary being disturbed at their lack of faith?

I don't know pick a reason. For example I don't give a s*** about pussy grabbing. even a little. Hence I like bill clinton.

What ever it is they didn't suddenly join the KKK.
10:20pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25605 posts
You really don't care that the POTUS is an advocate of sexual assault? I guess caring about that is just another symptom of my addiction to being offended on other's behalf.

You make constant references to others using hyperbole yet you make the KKK comment. If you're going to be a pedantic little priss about the arguments others use on such a regular basis, you should probably also try to curtail your own bulls*** a little bit.
10:29pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2231 posts
You make constant references to others using hyperbole yet you make the KKK comment.
You really don't care that the POTUS is an advocate of sexual assault?

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I don't care that he said when you're famous women let you touch them in a private conversation leaked precisely because people like you would get your panties in a scrunch. Not quite the same thing. When trump comes out and says "I Donald Trump support sexual assault, its just the best thing eva" we can talk about advocating for sexual assault.

Lets get something extremely clear.

I guess caring about that


You care about saying you care. nothing more.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark that you've donated 0 dollars and 0 minutes of your time to women's rape charities (probably in your life, and definitely since those tapes were released).
I take it your cash and time donations to the UNHCR run to the same total.

You'll call some racist and sexist on message board though. I hear Martin Luther King had a similar problem.

Seeing as you said anyone who voted for trump in a two horse race where not voting for Hilary (either by abstaining or voting for a third party) is practically the same as voting for trump makes you a "hard-right winger", the door to hyperbole was left wide open.
07:33am 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25606 posts
Holy s*** Pete you're a bit of a dumb c*** aren't you?

Donald Trump saying he is famous enough to grab people by their genitals and they won't do anything about it because he's famous is textbook sexual assault my drain spiraling friend. Are you suggesting that the owner's of the genitals he has grabbed all liked it? If he was still just the boss' son acting as a host of some s***** reality TV show this would barely register on my care scale, but the actual reason I care is that he has just been elected POTUS. Why is this a hard thing for you to understand (pls see my opening sentence)?

You're not a hard-right winger if you've voted for the republican party or the LNP at some point in the past. But Trump is different to every leader of the republican party that I know of (post WW2 at least). If you vote for the current republican party that he leads then you're either a hard-right winger or stupid enough to believe his lies. Same if you've voted One Nation. What other explanation is there if that's hyperbole?

For the record I have a fortnightly donation of $40 to both UNHCR and Amnesty. Nothing regular to women's rape charities though. I guess I could change one of the current ones so I can meet forum ranter Pete's high standards of caring but I am happy with them. Bringing up someone's donation record as some sort of argument against whether they really care is a trite tactic I'd expect to see from my infis and broolstorycos. You remember broolstoryco? I had almost forgotten him but you're making memories flood back for some reason.
01:23pm 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25607 posts
As a white male from a privileged 'impossible to fail' upbringing I believe victims of sexual assault, racism and indefinite imprisonment in inhumane camps should just get over it.
02:57pm 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25608 posts
It's almost as though Trump is aware of the fact that if he literally says 'I condone sexual assault' he will (probably) be outcast by all of his backers.

Unfortunately for him he is, like you, not really that bright and unable to maintain the charade at all times. I'd post the transcript to the conversation but you'll just reality deny it in any case but the context is clear - Trump believes that he can kiss and grab women because he is famous and powerful. Even if the person being kissed/grabbed doesn't like it they will let him do it due to his fame and power. A man who is willing to abuse this power in such a damaging and self-indulgent way has just been elected as POTUS. Are you beginning to understand yet?
04:57pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2232 posts
Gee its like red meat to a dog innit.

Actually fpot, he is describing a text book he said she said.

Here is what he said.
Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything


here is the law in victoria.
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) A intentionally touches another person (B); and

(b) the touching is sexual; and

(c) B does not consent to the touching; and

(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents to the touching.


I think I'm on the verge of spotting the problem with it being definitely for certain no doubt sexual assault.. Are you? It's certainly possible it could end in sexual assault, but not definite. Consent and enjoyment are not synonymous. Presumably prostitutes frequently consent to sex they are less than enthusiastic for.

I could be cheap and point out you actually said and hold you to: saying you'll grab genitals counts. I could even play your game and speculate about your inner world. You know like how you're ready to jump on the slightest hint of a negative story, because it just "speaks" volumes.

Donald Trump saying (the elements of sexual assault minus one) ... is textbook sexual assault


But on top of it not being clear, I assume, because it's between two people in private, he is exaggerating for effect. As evidenced by the fact he didn't immediately step off the bus and grab Arianne Zucker's genitals.

I further assume the thrust of his comments, rather than the literal panty scruncher interpretation, is that his fame gets him laid. Which is obviously false because Mick Jagger was notoriously condemned to celibacy once the Stones took off.

but you know I'm just a dumb c***. with an opinion supported by more than my feels. I think I'll continue not caring in the slightest.

The worst any sane person would say about it is that it is vulgar (and it would be better if president was not vulgar). taking at as a tacit admission is, well, a little bit simple in my book.

But Trump is different to every leader of the republican party that I know of (post WW2 at least). If you vote for the current republican party that he leads then you're either a hard-right winger or stupid enough to believe his lies


oh so not being a hard-right winger is suddenly an option. maybe they believe he'll rip up nafta. Maybe they don't like Hilary. It's not like she doesn't have serious shortcomings. who knows. But as far as them being unpersuadable, a good starting point might have been not calling them deplorable. Just free wheelin here.

You view Trump as uniquely dangerous, and it is not an unreasonable opinion, but it is just your opinion. Equally, he is different and the US has a robust system of checks and balances, so rolling the dice is not totally unreasonable either.

thank you for your contribution to the UNHCR they do great work, but I was right wasn't I.

Bringing up charitable works is a trite argument but so is calling people racist sexist or hard right wingers from a position of smug moral condescension. So any time you want to lift the bar...
07:22pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2233 posts
I hear if you scrunch panties hard enough you can fit them in your mouth vash.

upgraded from sexual assault now too.

I take it the withdrawal of the accusations are fake news eh?
08:28pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2234 posts
The allegations aren’t entirely implausible on their face


You know its a good news story when this is the opening gambit. Nothing says news like slightly implausible. Unverified.

Forget the communist manifesto, did you read that or was it the first link from googling "trump rape"

edit

I think this needs to be expanded on a little.

the link to vashes huffpo story

the title of the story.

Donald Trump Is Accused Of Raping A 13-Year-Old. Why Haven't The Media Covered It?


it goes on to say (but only after giving the unverifiable details) that the two main reasons are that people who have propagated it have been attacked, and second the accuser is anonymous and so can't be verified.

literally the only verifiable fact in the entire story is

This story has been updated to note the cancellation of the press conference and the dismissal of the suit.


I note this editors note

editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.


actually vash. If I had to pick a story that exemplified fake news. Yeah this would be it. The headline couldn't be further from the truth. They published unverifiable accounts of a pedophilic rape.

the only fact in the entire piece is that the lawyers were instructed to dismiss the case, which is included as editors note after first publishing at the bottom of the page.

That is a catastrophically bad news article you utter dunce.
08:46pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2235 posts
what has that got to do with anything?


can't tell if serious.
10:38pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2236 posts
You are literally an alien.

I just want to talk about the facts.

Do you find it hard to breath our sweet free air. Martian.
11:19pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2237 posts
yeah could be that or it could be she wasn't willing to swear the veracity of accusations.


and it's pretty easy to baselessly speculate on his character and what kind of manipulative behavior he would be up to, away from the public's eye, because I disagree with him politically.


Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
11:58pm 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25609 posts
Yeah I don't think Trump saying they let you do anything is any indication of consent. But okay, let's just go with vulgar then. It's not preferable for the person running a country to not be vulgar, it is essential.These are not baseless speculations being made against him. They're based off the things he has said when he's standing behind a podium, things he has said to the press and things he has said before he was a presidential candidate. He has gone to an effort to put his personality out there and has given people plenty of basis to safely say he is a complete piece of s***.

I don't think those people really become racists or advocates of sexual assault overnight, nor does their vote for Trump show support for racism or sexual assault.
I never said this. I said (twice) that if you've cast a vote for Trump then it could be argued you've been swayed over to the hard-right side of politics or you've fallen for his lies. I'm at work I'll read your link later when I'm back home.
01:11pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2238 posts
He can launch nukes on a whim!

I personally am predicting a fallout 4 situation on January 22nd. been great known yall

Hey toll you could borrow Vash's panties

it could look something like this

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSg51N48YSn9fmO1I67LypYT6adZmXxDQsDV1Lwa5A0Ery_eSASJkMjowNx

but with panties.
05:50pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25610 posts
Toll is someone who always treats people with respect yet here you are acting like a smug condescending s***. The exact thing you accuse me of. Which I admit I probably can be but only to dumb obnoxious c**** that deserve it.
06:18pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2239 posts
I thought you'd enjoy fpot.
06:20pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2240 posts
I also managed to avoid calling him racist or sexist. It was hard, I'll write a paper about the confrontation with my own demons later.

was hard fpot. The struggle is real.
06:46pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25611 posts
You act as though I label every second person that way. The only people I have labelled racist are brool who was literally an apologist for Anders Breivik - a mass murdering white supremacist. The other is of course infi which is based off openly racist comments he has made in the past (middle eastern people are savage and deserve savage treatment was a comment he made in regards to detainees in Gitmo) and his rabid support of Australia's offshore detention program. I guess with a bit of convincing you could get him a downgrade to a hopelessly gullible victim of the media's demonisation of middle-eastern people but I really don't think that's the case. I don't really recall calling anyone a sexist except perhaps brool but again, he really was the complete package when it came to human excrement.

Just seems a bit odd that you'd lambast me for something and then do the exact same thing to a person who totally doesn't deserve it. You do that quite a bit actually.
07:30pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2241 posts
I didn't do the same thing. you like to make judgments about deep character flaws.

I did something quite different. I pointed out fears of nuclear Apocalypse are plainly absurd. maybe a little like attending parties where children are handed out like fleshlights.

But anyway.

just to clarify, what do you term hard-right winger? is a hard-right wing person racist. for example.

and so when you say I remind you of brool, what do you mean exactly. Not racism i take it because you have disavowed that. not sexism because you've disavowed that too.

because you are obviously far above guilt by association in your own mind.
07:42pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25612 posts
A hard-right winger is quite simply one who supports hard-right wing policies. I don't really need to explain that one to you do I? They can be racist but not always. Definitely seems to come with the territory to me.

It was only that particular post I replied to and it was only in a rather superficial way. The big hahahahaha before you're reply. Nothing really major and I do apologise for associating you with that complete c*** to be quite honest.
07:55pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2242 posts
Name a hard-right winger who isn't racist. And just for completeness, name a hard-left winger who is.

Thank you for not associating me with an anders brevik apologist.
08:02pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25613 posts
You know I've been sitting here thinking and I can't really think of any hard-right people who aren't racist - personally or publically. Note that doesn't mean I think that all people who support right-wing politics are racist or even just generally c***y.

I've known heaps of people who claim to be left-wing and yet will still openly use racial slurs and engage in racist behaviour. Can't really think of any good public figures to name, though.
08:16pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2243 posts
Vash you literally owe the ausgamers community an apology.

Fpot I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you are making me work for it man. you know heaps of people who "claim" to be left wing.

Let me give you leg up. Francesca Ramsey is hard left wing and openly racist.

Marco Rubio is probably what you'd call hard-right wing and is not racist.
08:25pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25614 posts
Never heard of the first person but apparently she is some sort of youtube comedian. Care to save me trawling through what is sure to be utter garbage and posting an example?

Knew Marco Rubio's name but know nothing about him. I'll just take your word on that one.

So what was the point of that?

What I meant by the people I know is that they'll post things on facebook that are clearly left-wing initiatives but when I see them socially they will act in a manner that directly contradicts their facebook behaviour. Not really sure what's wrong with using that as an example.
08:33pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2244 posts
Francesca Ramsey has literally said she doesn't want a mixed race baby.

Oh and that black people literally cannot be racist. If I were being cheap, I could note that you hate racism but didn't bring up recent events in Chicago.

The point of the exercise was for you to demonstrate that you truly hold the concepts of "hard-right winger" and "racist" distinctly, by showing you are capable of recognizing racism in a someone the opposite of hard-right winger. It would show, inter alia, you don't use hard-right winger as shorthand for "evil".

they will act in a manner that directly contradicts their facebook behaviour.


Yeah social media is like that. some people struggle to keep just their social media ducks in a row.
08:41pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25615 posts
Gotta be honest here and say I had no idea what you were talking about when it came to Chicago. Googling brings up stuff about the police being a bunch of jackbooted racist thugs. How did that even make the news or was it something else?

Toll: without knowing the specifics I feel the idea that Trump could single handedly launch a nuke in a fit of anger to be a bit of a myth. There's enough sane people who are above all pragmatic behind the scenes who would never let something like that happen.
09:05pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2245 posts
They are absurd, because I take it he is going to rage on twitter rather than use the dialing wand on the apocalypse.

they are absurd, because of the two candidates, he was the one most conciliatory toward the other major player in a nuclear war.

And because it falls to person saying: someone doesn't understand the consequence of f*****g nuclear war, to go beyond arm chair diagnoses based on selectively edited media appearances.

*edit*

Fpot add "facebook live stream" to your search terms

*/edit*
09:06pm 14/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38696 posts
Yeah social media is like that. some people struggle to keep just their social media ducks in a row.
PEOPLE are like that. It has nothing to do with social media. People happily walk around with contradictory thought processes in their head & think nothing of it, ever. When they are called out on it, their brain works furiously and often creatively to find ways to resolve this cognitive dissonance.

My favourite examples are often on the Daily Show when they go to a Republican convention to interview random people, and point out something that the candidate said that is (for example) directly opposed to standard Republican principles or something that the interviewee had literally just said.

It is certainly most noticeably on social media but the flip side is that it means people that exhibit these weird inconsistencies can be more easily called out. But of course it doesn't work on Trump :)
09:09pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2246 posts
maybe one explanation is that human people don't fit neatly into ideological boxes, hence ideological purity tests are a little bit oppressive.



Preach it brother.
09:30pm 14/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38697 posts
concur. people like simple labels like "left" & "right" because it helps neatly put people into the category of "The Other" (i.e., people who disagree with me on whatever we're talking about right now). I've always hated the whole left and right thing and cringe every time I use one of those terms myself
09:59pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2247 posts
Selectively? Dude, there are repeating examples over and over and over and over.

of trump not understanding the consequences of nuclear war.

So in three sentences (of thirty words or less) or less direct me to hard evidence Trump does not understand the consequences of starting a nuclear war.

or would be likely, in a fit of rage, to do something worse than make meryl streep a bit sad.

I want to be polite toll. But I am going to be forced to start mocking you.

let me give you a starting point. The US has never executed someone for mutiny. the idea that someone might be executed for refusing a nuclear strike from someone having a (undetected) psychotic episode is (at the risk of offending people) borderline retarded.
10:31pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2248 posts
So the worries about trump (ending the world) are completely unfounded!


I don't know what your parents did to you, but it should probably be illegal.
10:42pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25616 posts
Launching a nuke would only mean the end of the world if he nuked another country with nukes. Which he wouldn't.

edit:
And FFS who in politics is not a narcissist
I know you probably think this was a real edgy truthbomb, but all it does is further reinforce the fact you're a complete knob who only sees in black and white. There's an obvious gradient involved when you talk about narcissism, and Trump is obviously on the dark side of it.
10:51pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2249 posts
I'm pretty confident Narcissism is likely to be a reoccurring theme in most politicians. Neither did I deny Trump is one.

It isn't a small jump from raging on twitter to ordering a world ending nuclear strike.

He might just stop at sending Rosie O'Donnell to gitmo.

Do i think it is going to make for some good tv when he cracks it and says or does some stupid s*** when someone or something pisses him off? Ab-so-f*****g-lutely

amen.

Launching a nuke would only mean the end of the world if he nuked another country with nukes. Which he wouldn't.


I like to think of it like this.

10:52pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2250 posts
was it a montessori school, or were you denied fluoride?
11:01pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2251 posts
so no fluoride then?
more panties

only if you can get them out of your mouth.
11:08pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2252 posts



If you’ve been anywhere near Facebook or Twitter in the past several months, you’re probably aware that there is a case working its way through the courts that accuses vash of raping a 13-year-old girl in 1994.

On Wednesday, the woman, who remains anonymous, was slated to appear at a press conference with her new attorney, Lisa Bloom, the daughter of Gloria Allred. Bloom wrote a column about the case in The Huffington Post last summer.

For months, people have wondered why this case isn’t getting more ― or, really, any ― attention in the press, even now that vash faces an actual court date: a Dec. 16 status conference with the judge.

The allegations aren’t entirely implausible on their face. The accuser says vash raped her repeatedly at parties thrown by since-convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, who was widely known to throw wild parties with young women and girls. Epstein was convicted in 2008 of soliciting an underage girl for prostitution and served a small portion of an 18-year sentence.

In a New York magazine profile of Epstein before he went to prison, and long before vash ran for president, vash acknowledged that he knows Epstein. “I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,’’ vash says in the story. “He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it ― Jeffrey enjoys his social life.”

The lawsuit against vash includes affidavits from two anonymous women who say they were witnesses. Yet there’s been little coverage of the case. As one of the media outlets that has not published much about it, I can say there are two main reasons we shied away.
The accuser is anonymous.

The accuser in this case is anonymous, and the suit is filed under a pseudonym in New York. A previous case filed in California used the name “Katie Johnson.” To accuse someone in print of forcibly raping a child is about as serious a charge as can be made. To do that with an anonymous accuser would be an extraordinary step, putting the journalist’s reputation on the line.

One senior national reporter who has covered both campaigns said that the anonymity was the main stumbling block. “If it’s something that’s this damaging to a candidate, you better be sure, and she’s anonymous,” the reporter said, asking for anonymity to talk openly about the decision-making process. “Look, if she came out and she would do an interview, that would be different, but she’s an anonymous plaintiff.”

To go forward with an anonymous source shifts responsibility for the veracity of the claims from the accuser to the reporter. If the person is named and on record, the reporter can argue that he or she is merely reporting what the person is saying, and people are free to believe her or not. But giving anonymity says something different to an audience. It suggests, I, as a journalist, have investigated this person and these charges, and find them sufficiently credible to bring them forward without a name attached. Especially in the wake of the Rolling Stone fiasco, that requires an extreme amount of confidence in the source.

And the way the case rolled out did not inspire that confidence.
The accuser’s public backers have been savaged in the press.

One of the leading organizers of the effort to get the press to pay attention to this case is Steve Baer, an outspoken Republican donor. Baer last made news when his effort to out an alleged affair between Reps. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) and Renee Ellmers (R-N.C.) contributed to McCarthy dropping his bid to become House speaker. Baer’s style is to liberally cc and bcc an endless stream of powerful people, and it usually has the effect of getting none of them to listen.

When I wrote to him Monday night, for instance, to say I was going to write a story on why the media were avoiding the child rape story, he replied and cc’ed Washington Post Executive Editor Marty Baron, along with a host of other media figures.

And Baer, in fact, is among the more credible advocates the accuser has going for her.

The accuser initially filed the case on her own behalf in California, but it was tossed for not stating an articulable violation of her civil rights. The case has since been refiled in New York, under the representation of a patent lawyer named Thomas Meagher. A patent lawyer handling the case hasn’t inspired the most confidence. (He didn’t respond to a request for comment.)

The least credible backer has to be a man who may or may not be named Al Taylor, but is more likely named Norm Lubow, and was apparently a former producer for “The Jerry Springer Show.”

Media outlets that have tried to get in touch with Johnson have had extreme difficulty doing so. The Daily Beast did a deep dive into the case and the people supporting the accuser in July, and came to a devastating conclusion: “Far from derailing the vash train, Katie Johnson and her supporters seem to be in an out-of-control clown car whose wheels just came off,” wrote Brandy Zadrozny.

The Guardian and Jezebel also looked into the situation and came up with equally unfavorable takes. A writer who actually talked to Johnson came away confused about what to make of the allegations. It’s unclear if anybody has managed to speak to Tiffany Doe or Joan Doe, the two witnesses cited in the case. “Jezebel, The Guardian and The Daily Beast effectively poisoned the well on Katie’s credibility,” Baer lamented to HuffPost, accurately.

If you’re still struggling to understand why the story didn’t get more coverage, imagine for a moment that you’re a reporter thinking about spending weeks looking into it. Then go read the Daily Beast article. Still ready to go down that rabbit hole?

But as the reality of the court date increasingly dawns on the press, coupled with vash’s own admission that he sexually assaults women, the case is getting harder to ignore. Baer said that two media outlets have recently done interviews with Johnson, and stories could pop at any minute.

Erik Wemple, a media reporter at The Washington Post, said he hasn’t talked to many journalists about their decision to shy away from the story. “I can’t cover everything,” he said. “Around the spring, the Washington Post was getting hammered for assigning two dozen reporters to investigate vash. I wrote a piece wondering whether that was anywhere near enough. It wasn’t, as it turns out.”

In some ways, given the role of Facebook in disseminating news, it matters less this cycle than any other previous one that the media have largely ignored the case. Open platforms, too, have helped the story circulate. The story that Bloom published on HuffPost’s contributor platform has been shared on Facebook 140,000 times. The piece has been viewed 5,221,475 times since June.

With Bloom’s planned press conference on Wednesday, things might have changed.

But Johnson’s appearance was canceled at the last minute because Bloom said her client had received threats and was afraid of appearing in public.

On Friday evening, Bloom announced that her client had instructed her to dismiss the lawsuit.

This story has been updated to note the cancellation of the press conference and the dismissal of the suit.

Editor’s note: vash regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.


I can't confirm any of that of course. I was just posting what I couldn't confirm to explain why I couldn't confirm what I was posting.
11:14pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25617 posts
like alleging someone who burns people on twitter will launch a nuclear strike if they get really mad hahaha
You're much worse than that. Dull, predictable and lame are three words I'd use to describe your thinking. At least toll shows some imagination in his thinking. It can often lead you to wrong conclusions (such as this case Spoiler:
I HOPE TO F*****G GOD
) but to be completely unable to use it is really going to cost you at some point in your life.

toll I hope you're not stressing over this. Trump, like all presidents, is the sum of the people working for him. There's an army of people just as narcissistic as he is who stand to lose big if he red buttons someone. They won't ever let that happen. Unfortunately they're also big enough c**** to get such a reprehensible POS elected in the first place, so they'll f*** up things in their own way. Hopefully it stays local as possible.
11:41pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2253 posts
yeah Nikita Khrushchev was a portrait of reasonability. (its ok if you have to look that up vash.)
11:59pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2254 posts
Adolf Hitler


Thanks for the doco Viper, but It is hardly painting Khrushchev in a positive light. He was willing to play chicken with nukes until he was offered something he could sell politically in the USSR?

He was a certainly an improvement on Stalin (but lets just reflect on where that bar is set), and less belligerent than Brezhnev. But for the great lover of peace, starting a nuclear arms race and parking 100 of em 90 miles from the US mainland under the control of a lunatic, was, shall we say, a "flawed" strategy.

*edit* Finished it Viper. really a great recommendation, the dude had a keen intellect. The world could use more statespeople of that quality.

The point that the world is an unstable state currently and trump not being the ideal man for the job is well made.

But toll is making the claim that we are a bad poll result or putin calling him farty pants from the end of the world, and that the orders will make it the whole way down the chain of command because not following the order will end in execution. Which is, to put it lightly, utterly hysterical.
11:53am 15/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2256 posts


too far?
04:58pm 15/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2257 posts
When someone is in a psychotic state of mind though? Who the f*** knows what they will do.


Get replaced by the vice president according to the constitution? because that's what the VP is there for.

dude I'll give you what you want. I absolutely would not pick trump to deal with a Cuban missile crisis. Where tensions are at fever pitch between *both* countries and the only way out is for Trump to back down and potentially look weak. Yeah I wouldn't bet much on that. But I am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt that they will behave differently when slighted on twitter then when they could give an order that might end the human species.

As should any half way reasonable person.

*edit* and briefly on this, the only party this is even remotely likely to happen with is Russia, and one candidate has been tripping over themselves (to the point of attracting concern the Russians have got dirt on him) to say how much they luuurv Russia. You can't have it both ways, the dude is either too friendly or too hostile*/edit*

Let me give another concession. I don't know too much about the launch procedure. But a bit of googling reveals OPLAN 8010 is classified secret so neither do you. Who knew they'd keep the precise requirements of launching their nukes on a hair trigger under their hat?

But the older SIOP plan is well documented on wiki so lets run through that. SIOP required the secretary of defense to approve the launch order, he couldn't veto, the president can fire and go ahead anyway. The president can't just say "nuke Canada" and five minutes later the missiles are on their way. SIOP had clearly defined triggering conditions so trump would have to, in a psychotic state, be plausibly claiming Russia/China have launched against the states.

so problem number one. The secretary of defense is going to be general Mattis, who happens to be famous for refusing to back down to presidents. I would absolutely back Mattis to commit treason in that situation. more over you'd need to explain to me how trump would convince Mattis of something Mattis would *just 100% know* isn't true.

Problem number two. After firing Mattis while having a psychotic breakdown he would have to convince the guy with the football to pony up the launch codes, while mattis is probably still in the room or at least the building.

Problem Number three. Launching SIOP actually suffers from the opposite problem. relying on people to flick switches they are know are going to end the world. More importantly people who are going to be informed of russian/chinese aggression. So the idea of the launchers themselves refusing the order is actually not far fetched. Even less far fetched if the the SOD has just been fired.

Problem Number four. Treason/mutiny all have the caveat you have to turn down a *legal* order. Suffice to say someone in a pyschotic state to the point that they are willing to exterminate the human species is not capable of giving a legal order, see the next problem. Most military folks will have been trained on this, and the joint chiefs of staff will absolutely know this, so the death penalty "being on the table" is fanciful. Nobody is going to get executed for refusing an order to launch nukes from someone having a mental breakdown and most military people know this.

Problem Number Five. Someone having a psychotic episode where they are literally convincing themselves Russia is coming and they have to launch aaaaall the nukes, isn't going to be likely to be able conceal that in which case the VP protocols for unfit to hold office will almost certainly be triggered.

All this against the backdrop of baselessly (and I mean that seriously) stating trump has a mental disease that would render him unable to understand the consequences of triggering a world ending nuclear strike.

the phrase "psychotic mental disorder" is not in the article you posted, and I have read zero articles saying trump might on a whim (psychotically induced or otherwise) start a nuclear war from scratch. the article states he likely to be less impulsive than George Bush. It does say he is willing to take risks, and that he might enjoy doing that more than most, but you are talking about the most significant act a human is capable of doing. You have provided zero evidence he doesn't naturally get this or has a disease that is affecting him that deeply.

The dude is weird and probably does have mental issues, but you are describing dr evil, not trump.

The scenario you are describing is pure fantasy.
08:04pm 16/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38698 posts
We are going to lead the way in Queensland, no driver's licenses wearing the burqa or anything like that.'
Someone told her you already can't wear a burqa in Qld driver's license photos, right? So it's already solved. I guess she can just retire, MISSION COMPLETE.
10:24pm 18/01/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13691 posts
We could be witnessing the Death of Liberalism. Centuries from now our descendants will thank The Deplorables for getting Humanity back on track, "kickin Commie ass and grabbing pus-oops" not that.


Except you're probably not describing actual Liberalism here, you're more likely referring to regressive leftists who have essentially hijacked the premise of liberalism - and who so often, are actually *illiberal* in the application of their ideology - almost providing legitimacy for the notion of horseshoe politics in many cases.
03:13am 19/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38699 posts
09:17pm 19/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25619 posts
that's so intentionally trendy. like the guy who wears his MBL cap with the sticker still on. /cringe

Yeah it really is just like that thing you said.

what
09:58pm 19/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2258 posts
I like seth meyers, but saying the CNN report was something other than fake news is delusional. If there was even a hint the report wasn't true they shouldn't have been talking about at all. Meanwhile the president of CNN is saying their credibility has never been higher. Oh good, I was worried there for second, but if you say your credibility is credible I guess we can just move on. These are the people we have to trust to report on conflicts of interest.

as for trump attacking buzzfeed. Yeah I'm not going to lose sleep over the authoritarian nightmare we are about to enter when trump can "just" call buzzfeed garbage. oh the humanity.

I like how, after this, now we have to treat news about Trump's dealings in Russia with skepticism (and there are almost certainly problems there). Way for the press to really perform their civic duty.

F*** me. It's like they haven't heard of the boy who called wolf.
09:39am 20/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2259 posts
More referring to the seth meyers clip in which he said trump "attacked the media" by calling buzzfeed garbage, and then goes on to talk about authoritarian precedents.

But I totally get what you're talking about too.
10:42am 20/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38700 posts
Also his press secretary talking up trump hotels. F*****g lol, this presidency is going to be worse than channel 7 at cross promotion.
Trump has advised he's going to divest himself of his business interests to avoid conflict though

*dusts off hands, problem solved for sure 100%*
10:10pm 20/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25620 posts
Trump is not a tyrant ansd cannot become one. It is constitutionally impossible and thus your point fails at the start.
He can't become a tyrant, it says so on this piece of paper.

It's highly unlikely that he could become one, I agree. However one thing's for certain - if he were to go rogue and become a tyrant people like infi would allow it to happen. Pathetic apologist behaviour is all I ever see from him and most of Trump's supporters. A sad little band of blind ignorant followers inspired by the fact that their own worst traits are reflected in their leader. They'll do anything to keep that feeling of vindication alive.
02:31pm 23/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25621 posts


'Alternative Facts'
04:16pm 23/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2260 posts
That's pretty funny pave.

The major one being Women's Rights, women are sick of being belittled, sexualled oogled, overlooked because they are women.


Yeah because Madonna, is what I'd call the definition of marginalized. Some women have it tough but that gap between the front teeth....

And ashley judd reciting a poem about how Donald has wet dreams over his daughter.

Yep, screams rational grievance to me. and brave. Did I mention brave. It was very b r a v e.
08:35pm 23/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38701 posts
you would understand that their Constitution is regarded as sacred
Except when it's not for the convenience of those agencies or people that are more than happy to ignore it, right?

There's a laundry list of these kinds of cases (Popehat is a good reference for 1A ones). Trump made unconstitutional tweets during the election (and of course was cheered on by his fans). They will continue to pick and choose the bits of the constitution that back their position and ignore the others.

The Constitution is a glorious document but I'm not sure it's doing its job
11:59pm 23/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38702 posts


unconstitutional tweets

tyranny

right....
well - basically by your own definition, a state of tyranny exists as soon as the Constitution is broken/ignored by the executive, right? Or is that not what you're saying?

edit: for clarify: I'm not agreeing with the tyranny point, in fact I think I explicitly disagree with it like I do statements that Trump is a racist, etc - just noting that the Constitution is not a magic safeguard against anything, even notwithstanding the fact that it can and has been changed
12:59am 24/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38703 posts
I don't know where you drew that inference
well you specifically said "unbreakable respect" in regards to the Constitution while using it as the main mechanism in place to prevent tyrants. But yeh, I generally agree with you I think.

It's unconstitutional when the Supreme Court says so.
I look forward to this being a LITERAL POTUS tweet in the next few months
09:31pm 24/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38704 posts
Speaking of Supreme Courts, The Supreme Court has dismissed the government's appeal in a landmark case about Brexit, meaning Parliament will be required to give its approval before official talks on leaving the EU can begin.

haha this is such a s****how. I have been to a stack of meetings lately with some fairly large companies over here and it's amazing hearing people make a statement about something financial, and then there's this pause where the speaker stops for a second, and then it's some follow on like "... well, for the next couple of months at least". Even from my little window I can see the uncertainty in the market having a big effect as people are forced to hedge their bets.
09:54pm 24/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25623 posts
my speech and tweet writing services are available
Seems the Nolan brothers have already been hired.
07:54am 25/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2261 posts
Even from my little window I can see the uncertainty in the market having a big effect as people are forced to hedge their bets.


It has effects all the way out here in the colonies.

At work advising on trade marks at the moment is tricky. You used to just apply to the EU and be done with it. But at the moment we don't know what will happen to the mark when they leave.

There are about 8 different ways the dice could land at the moment, so the best we can say to clients is you can lodge with the UK and the EU just to be sure, but it doubles the costs.

Not exactly ideal to say to clients "we don't know + that will be double the money thank you".
09:04am 26/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25624 posts
Is it okay to call Trump a torture advocate?
07:17pm 26/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2262 posts
Is it okay to call Trump a torture advocate?


Probably not.
08:33pm 27/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25625 posts
Do I need a video of him actually waterboarding someone before I can do that?
09:00pm 27/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2263 posts
Thanks for clearing that up.

I was confused as to whether waterboarding was torture or not. You can tell because I was talking about whether Trump is a general advocate for torture.

I'd probably have a case to bring before the ICJ reading your posts though vash.

Let me give you a heads up fpot. If I read the transcript of the interview, am I going to find words in it other than "torture works"? And will the gist of those words undermine a general sentiment of positive feeling toward torture? because if they do advocate, by definition, is off the table.

but also trump said "torture works" in relation to waterboarding which kind of puts the wind up posting videos of waterboarding, as though there were some confusion. But hey while we are all posting torture porn how do people feel about beheadings? cause we can find videos of that too.
08:44am 28/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2264 posts
Oh good so you only missed the debate by a decade.
11:21am 28/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38706 posts
It's definitely believable if you're a kneejerk reactionary that is seeking excuses to wail though
10:39pm 28/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25627 posts


the point is: it's believable in this nanny state
lol
12:24am 29/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25628 posts
Of thsoe individuals in the past 30 years, how many from those countries have been involved in terrorist activities within the US?
Since 1968 five people have died as a result of terrorist activities from people seeking asylum in the US.

1 516 863 have been killed by guns.

Right now you can't call Trump a facist because he doesn't fit the current definition of what a fascist is. By the end of his glorious regime the term fascist will either be redefined, or a new word will be created to describe what he's doing and history will have taught us another lesson.
05:18pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25629 posts
Why do Western countries allow people from countries that ideologically want to see Western civilization burn to the ground... Multiculturalism doesn't work.
I am a radicalised extremist. I live in a country with a corrupt regime that is sympathetic if not supportive of my extremist views.

I will now leave this country and make a risky journey to a place where people are highly suspicious of me. This country also has a well funded and somewhat competent security force that at the moment will take any measure to detect and stop me from not only carrying out any acts of terrorism, but will arrest me if they're even talked about in the wrong place.

or

I am a normal person who wishes to live a normal life. Unfortunately I live in a corrupt regime who will respond with imprisonment, torture and executions to anyone who speaks or acts against them.

I will now leave this country and make a risky journey to a place where people are highly suspicious of me. This is worth it because of the well funded and somewhat competent security forces that will probably only hassle me a few times (cos I'm brown) but once they lose interest will help protect me from those who wish me ill.
07:55pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25630 posts
Would any of you be happy to have 1million muslims migrate to Australia next year?
Can we exchange them for 1 million dumb c****?
08:40pm 30/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2266 posts
Trump can't even make an executive order to ban people without f*****g up the facts.

Oh wait, these countries must be Alternative terrorists or something, lol alternative facts. What nutjobs.

His banning policy literally doesn't even ban the countries that are most dangerous if that's what the policy is supposed to be doing..


the quote you made wasn't exactly current affairs. I hate break it to you but 9/11 happened nearly 17 years ago now. Ample time for the nature and location global terrorism to change.

Funny though, when you say doesn't even ban the countries that are most dangerous. Turn's out Obama's DHS disagrees with you on that. See if you can spot any similarities between the countries listed here and trumps list.

spoiler alert. It's exactly the same.

I guess by alternative you mean the same facts Obama used. Strangely we weren't on the precipice of fascism/new OED entry for "very bad" then.

Sifting through the noise in this administration (produced in large part by an utterly incompetent media) is going to take a herculean effort.
09:02pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25631 posts
your choice. so what's your response?
You're seriously asking me my choice between one million people fleeing persecution and a million worthless pieces of s*** like you?
09:16pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25632 posts
would you remove 1 million Australian citizens in order to accommodate 1 million Muslim refugees?
Is this a separate question to the one I just answered? Because if you're asking would I exchange one million randomly selected citizens for one million asylum seekers the answer is of course no.

The question I answered was would I exchange one million dumb c**** (and fyi, you're the model I am using to define dumb c*** in this instance). Citizenship status is irrelevant to whether you're a dumb c*** or not.

It seems the x% of people think racism is okay argument is trotted out as an argument quite a bit. For people who are against racism it doesn't matter how many people seem to think it's okay. Personally I wouldn't care if I was the last person on Earth who thought racism was wrong. All these polls say to me is that the disinformation campaign certain groups are running are working and that the people running these disinformation campaigns need to be stopped and held accountable for their actions.
09:35pm 30/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2267 posts
If you ignore the papers, and goto Muslim communities and actually talk to them


Have you ever actually done that?
09:42pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25633 posts
So are you in favour of removing 1m people picked at random from that 49% of the population. Or is your definition of "dumb c***" more refined than that?
No, because there may be other factors at play here. You have to take into account why it is people are susceptible to disinformation campaigns. Some people may not have had access to proper education, or have been affected by a traumatic personal experience or any other myriad of reasons.
09:52pm 30/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2268 posts
So you have been into a mosque and celebrated a religious festival? or you've worked with a muslim? because thats not the same thing vash and you know it.

We all need to keep our heads toll. I see a few news outlets went with saying trump had conflicts of interest, rather than you know, reading the words of the legislation.

another little bit of credibility lost for when an actual COI turns up.
09:52pm 30/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25634 posts
Another shooting in Canada today. Attackers killing their Muslim comrades shouting Allah Akbar. Western countries dont need this danger in their lives. Let's keep it simple.
Look at this dumb piece of s***.
03:18pm 31/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25635 posts
The election of Abbott in hindsight feels like the opening season of Breaking Bad. Things were grim and plans were going wrong all over the place. While we knew things could get worse it was hard to imagine exactly how.

Trump is Breaking Bad's second part of season 5. A protagonist who is bordering on comic book levels of evil. Things happening that back in the season 1 days you wouldn't even believe are possible. Looking back at season 1 almost seems quaint. Peaceful. You wish you could go back. Of course Breaking Bad wasn't real so the drama and high stakes were appreciated.

We're literally only in week 2 of the Trump administration and things are already beyond f***ed up. What's it going to be like if it isn't stopped and in four years time we're in Breaking Bad season 10?
04:13pm 31/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38707 posts
07:37pm 31/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25636 posts
07:50pm 31/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2269 posts
Those countries that have banned Israeli passports are due to Israel breaking international law and is in agreement with the UN rulings on the matter.


I think you might find some trouble in making the case that bashar al assad is responsible international citizen, and any Israeli ban he had in place has something to do with well developed international law. Also is this the same UN who stated that Israel shouldn't have the wailing wall in it borders?

So the Quebec shooter was a hard right wing French Canadian citizen inspired by the nationalist talk of La Penn, Trump and co. Lovely!


Here is how I propose it happened.

He was radicalized by all the evil things that have been done in the name of Islam. It is merely Geo-political forces that drive this behavior. There is no link what so ever between his actions and the philosophy he espoused.

In order to best address it, we must never criticise Trump lest we drive more vulnerable young men into the hands of extremists. Your islamorightophobia makes me sick to my stomach.

Finally Vash "the one man rainbow nation" worked with a right winger once. therefore any worries you have about a particular philosophy having real world consequences if you take it seriously
enough is also bigoted, because Vash knows.

*edit* so that is another topic Vash knows nothing about. You cover yourself in glory Vash, truly. Toll, you need to work on those comprehension skills buddy. I don't recall including a value judgment on muslims generally. think about that and then piece together the overall meaning of the post */edit*

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3dnJeQWEAASvAx.jpg:large

Last known image of hogfather finding out the shooter was white.
07:52am 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2270 posts
yeh why are people talking about a tyranny


You're going to have to make that tyranny link leap a little higher. I mean you already had you work cut out when equating tyranny to "sacking an acting AG who was literally keeping the seat warm until the new AG was confirmed, when she questioned the legality/(refused to implement while not questioning the legality) of the EO".



any time you want to appear less like that just get on in there.

here is a non-hyperventilating account by a Harvard law professor.
11:21am 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2271 posts
vash worked with him once. He knows (he doesn't know, I think he'd be caught up in fpots dumb c*** standard).
02:55pm 01/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25638 posts
It's a more exclusive club than you'd think.
03:57pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2272 posts
no its less
04:24pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2273 posts
Even my brother who is also a hard leftie, feels somewhat intimidated by his Arabic doctor, because our society has fed that belief so strongly to everyone. The poll result doesn't surprise me at all.


lets talk about your filthy racist brother, who's politics offered no defense to his shameful outlook on the world.
04:42pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2274 posts
oh so he is struggling to think for himself.

that sounds awful vash. Maybe you could educate him. you've worked with a muslim AND a sikh.
04:47pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2275 posts
Do you really want to open terrorist attacks up to every country?

That isn't likely to go well in numbers for the left wing. less of course you want to distance yourself from islam. But you worked with a guy.

I can think of a left wing torture of a mentally handicapped person right of the top of my head in the usa.
06:29pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2276 posts
Of course i wouldn't want that, never said that.


Doubt its possible to more profoundly mis-understand what I wrote. Carry on.
09:38pm 01/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38709 posts
Trump sacking that AG has sent a message.
get on board or get out of the way.
Yup. He will surround himself by yesmen and do whatever he wants. The question is whether the checks and balances and the systems that are in place in the US will stop him and his mob of f***wits from exceeding their station.

I am still reasonably confident that they will.

But I am also pretty confident that they will bump up against them, hard, many times. Trump because he's a genuine f***wit that thinks he should be able to do what he wants. His mob because they probably know where the edges are and will try to skirt them.
10:13pm 01/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38710 posts
or maybe now with the latest Supreme Court appointment granting a conservative dominated court, plus the Republican Senate and Congress, the God Emperor will suspend the constitution, rename the USA an Empire and commence building the Death Star. No more obstructions.
I know you think that is staggeringly unlikely. I do too, if only because of 2A and the fact that there are some things that even his core will not tolerate. But there are many barriers before it gets to that point - like the ACLU.

But the power he wields even within the framework of the Constitution are awesome and horrible. The fact that he so proudly behaves like such an obnoxious buffoon in public, to pander to the absolute worst parts of American society and their ridiculous fears, should make you ask what the he is saying behind closed doors. And possibly even scarier, what he is thinking.
10:58pm 01/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38711 posts
apropos of nothing

"this time it's different"
11:01pm 01/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38712 posts
listening to an australian say that makes me sad beyond words
11:21pm 01/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2277 posts
What on earth is on that list trog that you think is happening? or that trump is uniquely bad on? Control of the press is f*****g laughable.

Rampant sexism is a warning sign of fascism? Yeah ok, certainly it was the sexism in German society in 1935 that really stuck out as a point of no return.

Jesus H Christ there is no danger of sober analysis of this guy is there. None what so ever.
07:34am 02/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2278 posts
Because basing your anti terror strategy on 9/11 would have been like worrying about the vietcong in 1991.

The list was developed by Obama's department of homeland security.

Engage brain.
07:40am 02/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2279 posts
I hear Trump is going to stop Japanese people from visiting Hawaii. You can never be too careful...
08:03am 02/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38714 posts
Turnbull made an agreement in the last days of Obama in the hope that Hillary would just wave it through. What a deal - to be able to export your problem elsewhere! Shame there's nothing in it for the US. Turnbull dun goofed again.
again this is a weird thing for an Australian to say, especially one that has exhibited basically total and complete die-hard loyalty to the Liberal party in the face of all sorts of controversy.

I can understand an American being on board with Trump saying this. But an immigration-hating Australian who is seeing an opportunity to ditch even more immigrants on to someone else?! How come you're not shocked and appalled that Trump is backing out of an honourable deal made between two parties?!

The ABC reporting the deal is happening anyway despite Trump's posturing so I suspect it is the last time we'll ever hear about it from him EVER - unless he steps up at the 11th hour to kill it dead completely.
07:45pm 02/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38715 posts
What would it take for you to decide that the removal of bureaucracy isn't worth the cost?
I was thinking about asking this exact question actually. I'll add a rider: what will it take for you to admit that Trump is a trainwreck of a human and a terrible politician and his Presidency will make things worse for everyone?

I'm not saying I expect you to suddenly admit it now - it's clear he's done nothing bad enough in your eyes to warrant this judgement. I mean what kind of thing could he do in future that would make you suddenly think "hey maybe this guy is a bit of a tosser after all". For example if he banned abortion, would that do it? Or if he tried to wind back the 1st Amendment, or (as I read this morning as something he might do) start blocking state rights to legalise marijuana?

Presumably there is some line, somewhere, that if he crosses you will stop supporting him. Obviously that line was crossed with the Liberal party but I still don't understand where it was (I'd love to know about that too).

I suspect this is the most important question for Americans. So far they're caught up in the fun of banning all the brown people thinking it's going to make them safer (because they're cowards ruled by fear) or get them better jobs (because they've failed to understand the new economy and technology - although I'll grant that H1B reform might have some impact here, but not for the people in the rust belt that were promised a return to the 1960s).

But if ACA falls over, it will alienate 20m people that now have insurance they couldn't get before. If abortion is banned it will infuriate literally everyone that isn't a fundamental nutjob. If he starts trying to use federal power to block marijuana legalisation he'll have the states rights people and libertarians on his ass (not to mention hordes of stoners). If he legit gets in bed with Russia that is going to drive everyone that lived through the Cold War mental (I think people are underestimating the potential impact of the Russia stuff; I didn't think it was at all important but from talking to my relatives in the US - who lived through the Cold War - many are seething with fury about this).
08:01pm 02/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25639 posts
It was another weak copout by Turnbull when the refugees could easily been released into Nauru. I am opposed to rewarding boat people with passage to any desirable destination as that in turn pays off the people smugglers.
It's 2017 and people are still peddling this bulls*** that was bulls*** in 2012.

People speak about failure to persuade but when you have people willing to believe and peddle lies for half a decade you have no chance. You just have to wait till self-implosion and then sift through the debris for something salvageable.
08:09pm 02/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25640 posts
That means pro immigration as long as they're white.
08:30pm 02/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25641 posts
So you were rather quiet about the Trump thing when he was there on the outer, weren't you? Don't worry I get it - he won and you're exuberant about it. I'd be the same if something I was so emotionally invested in came up on top. But the fact that such a terrible person winning and the terrible things he is doing empower you so much is just so f*****g damning. I mean you outed yourself literally a few posts ago but here you are now with one of the dumbest yet.

edit: and just a little sidebar. When the Abbott hype machine was in full swing it was obvious how your language mimicked the Murdoch press at the time. Now it's as though they were written by Trump's slower-minded cousin. Learn to think for yourself mate. It's a really good thing.
10:03pm 02/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25642 posts
Oh I don't doubt for a second that you always supported him. Just a bit quiet about it that's all. I know for certain your religious-like fervour only started very recently. I'm just saying it's very telling when you see someone who is pumped full of s*** light up so much.
10:27pm 02/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38717 posts
you still haven't accepted that Trump won?
This is a massive strawman even by your usual standards

I accept that Trump won. I accept the Electoral College outcome. I accept the apathy of the American voter, the fecklessness of the Democratic party, the staggering incompetence of the Republican party to put up a better candidate, the sheer unlike-ability of Hillary.

None of that is at all related to my question - which I think is pretty simple - or my comment.

What can Trump do that would put you offside? At the moment it sounds like the answer is "nothing" (similar to what I'd say it seemed your attitude was towards the Liberal party).

(For example: I thought Bernie's policies were good. I don't think he was a socialist at all, even though he was framed as one. If he had suddenly turned around and said "I think the workers should own the means of production!" I would have just said, "this guy is crazy" and written him off. )

What is the X that Trump must do to make you think "this guy is crazy"?
10:42pm 02/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38718 posts
your value statement, like the liberal media commentary and all the worthless protesting suggests that those who voted for Trump are wrong and stupid, claiming some form of moral superiority.
Dude! I make no value judgement on the American voters. My question was about TRUMP and YOU and OUTCOMES.

I quite clearly explained in my previous post that I have no problems with him getting elected, as well as the reasons why I thought it happened. I think many normal regular people voted for Trump simply to reject the establishment.

Explained with a comic:

edit: won't embed, don't know why - link



We're at panel 2 at the moment. We're not at panel 3. But lots of people think it is coming. I am not convinced yet; I think the only way to see what is going to happen is to wait and see what is going to happen.
right when you win and right when you lose. it's churlish.
What word do you use to describe when people are asked simple questions and then go off on tangents to avoid answering them? Because I use "strawman".

It's too early for anyone to be "right" or "wrong". My value judgement on Trump is that he's a f***wit and so far I think he's acting like a f***wit. I think his f***wit policies and actions will probably be harmful for the US and probably the world, but maybe he will Make America Great Again. I doubt it but I'm prepared to wait and see. You've basically already made up your mind that it is great and he's great?!
Raise taxes.
ugh I feel like all this was now a completely wasted effort - boring!

this is why I don't engage people on Twitter
11:17pm 02/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2280 posts
Dude! I make no value judgement on the American voters.
So far they're caught up in the fun of banning all the brown people thinking it's going to make them safer (because they're cowards ruled by fear) or get them better jobs (because they've failed to understand the new economy and technology - although I'll grant that H1B reform might have some impact here, but not for the people in the rust belt that were promised a return to the 1960s).


Sounds a tiny bit like a value judgment. I'm sure by coward you were referring the grace and beauty of cowards while they run away. But anyway.

If he had suddenly turned around and said "I think the workers should own the means of production!" I would have just said, "this guy is crazy" and written him off.


So do I win a prize?


In 1987 Bernie said:

Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it means decentralization, it means involving people in their work. Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.


I was first tipped off he may have said something like that when he plastered his campaign website in how much of a "democratic socialist" he is and that "socialism" isn't a dirty word. The day he comes out and literally says "das kapital is a pack of lies" is the day I'll believe he's reformed. I could meet him half way and and accept "the belief that capital accumulation is evil led to the single greatest crime against humanity of the 20th century". Until then he is a communist who has taken 50 years to learn Americans don't like communists, so he has to tart his language up.

Trog, Bernie is a student politician (and all the attendant bulls*** that comes with it) trapped in the body of an old man. He would stand out among American politicians as being one of the least effect agents for change in history.

However, if you are inside a narrative over there. Would you care to explain which policies of Bernie's you liked? because I seem to recall he's not to big on the TPP, and I also seem to recall trump doing something about that recently. Just one of them didn't have a photo of Eugene Debs stuffed down their pants when they did it.
09:27am 04/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38719 posts
Sanders whole campaign site is still online as is (as far as I can tell). You can see his statements on "socialism" (scare quotes preserved) here. (FWIW this is a direct quote: "I don’t believe government should own the means of production".) His policies are also still online and all seem fine. But this isn't about Bernie & I have nothing else to say; frankly at a loss as to why you'd bring it up when I was clearly just making an example.

edit: fixed broken link & restored missing text. Deleted post below that [hopefully] wouldn't have existed if I'd not f***ed up my HTML and finished what I was saying. Sorry for inconvenience. Don't like deleting posts in this thread usually but that's a conversational fork that I'm making an EO about terminating because it's totally irrelevant.
08:52pm 04/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25644 posts
Speaking of things that happened decades ago - Trump's supreme court nominee Neil Gorsuch founded a student group called the Fascism Forever Club. Seems Trump wants this person appointed at all costs. Wonder why?
10:11pm 04/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1636 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic, it's not about Bernie
Send Private Message
10:32pm 04/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25645 posts
Seattle judge blocks Trump travel ban

Kind of makes me think that Yates was onto something when she said the executive order was unlawful. Which means the firing of her was Trump trying to circumvent the rule of law. Guess that's another box that can be ticked.
12:55am 05/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38720 posts
You mean so-called judge I assume.

edit: also ACLU lawsuit challenges immigration policy on 1A grounds (no Popehat analysis yet but suspect it's coming)
01:13am 05/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2282 posts
frankly at a loss as to why you'd bring it up when I was clearly just making an example.


Here is why.

what will it take for you to admit that Trump is a trainwreck of a human and a terrible politician and his Presidency will make things worse for everyone?


So putting the EO to one side which (which I will agree is a bad policy, poorly implemented, which also constitutes the full extent of the valid criticism against it) has affected, at most 90,000 people so far. By far and away the most significant thing trump has done is to withdraw from the TPP. He has a generally protectionist outlook on trade. In this he and bernie are actually remarkably close to one another.

That will affect billions of people, and probably for the worse. Yet column inches on that and detailed posts on this forum are in remarkably short supply.

So then the above statement begs the conversation fork, as it rather strongly implies you believe Trump is a Trainwreck of a human. So the next natural question is, where Bernie and Trump are aligned on the most significant trade issues (and you like Bernie on the issues), does that too mean Bernie is a Trainwreck of a human. (because if he undermines free trade paying for all his free s*** is going to get much much harder. Probably shouldn't need to be stated, but given the retarded level of discussion so far, this is an inconsistency trump has never been able to explain, nor has he been pushed on significantly in the press)

To make the link explicit you accuse infi of being blinded by prejudice and irrationality when it comes to various matters political. So I'd say a corner stone rationality is being able to treat like cases alike. Therefore, if on the most important policy issue, trump and bernie are the same, but only one is a Trainwreck of a human, you would appear to be displaying rather acute hypocrisy. I take the thrust of your comments to be that you believe you have the rational ground (and I might add the idea of me occupying a narrativeless space making you frustrated speaks more to prejudice on your behalf, then any logical shortcoming on mine). The more balanced, open to all the facts position. However, I think you actually are just responding to a strong personal dislike of trump. For the same reason fpot and vash lose their minds when he talks outside the overton window.

*edit* I'd also go a little further and say that people like you who can easily work anywhere in the world, being pissed off at trump is probably one of trump's greatest political assets. I'm not saying you're a bad person because of it,merely that upsetting you is proof positive to people who can't do it, that trump is legit.*/edit*

I note you like to indulge in fretting over blustery tweets as well.

Here is the rational story to be worried about for the last week.

Nixon and Reagan got the unions on side and won their second terms in landslides.

So I disagree Bernie is irrelevant. the approach toward the working class will be decisive in the midterms and to the next presidential election, and I think Bernie is the classic bourgeois Marxist who loves to talk about oppression but actually despises the working class. If he becomes the democratic model for working class outreach the democrats will lose.

This guy, who Toll has convinced himself has a mental handicap, is quietly making incredibly deft political moves. And everyone appears to be watching it happen while completely distracted by largely irrelevant fake news stories.

for example
Speaking of things that happened decades ago - Trump's supreme court nominee Neil Gorsuch founded a student group called the Fascism Forever Club. Seems Trump wants this person appointed at all costs. Wonder why?


oh dear. I think he just punk'd fpot three decades in advance.

You know why we heard about inauguration attendance ad nauseam for a week? because it's not his tax returns. And a disgracefully incompetent feckless media let it happen.
10:23am 05/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25646 posts
Heh oops sorry about that. Didn't snopes before I posted what a rookie mistake.
08:13pm 05/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25647 posts
06:53pm 06/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38721 posts
but they just get a warmer reception on college campuses.
UH HUH SURE
10:07pm 06/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25648 posts
Who suggested it only happens to feminists?
01:01pm 07/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2283 posts
UH HUH SURE

Just to get that clear trog.

A woman with the full backing of university faculty receiving a threat deemed by the FBI to be not credible and voluntarily cancelling her talk because of political disagreement over Utah concealed-carry laws.

That is meaningfully comparable to:

A speaker being condemned by 100 faculty and demanding he be de-platformed at the home of the free speech movement for his dangerous speech. having his event violently shut down by masked thugs who beat random people in and around the event, shot bottle rockets at the venue and caused in excess of 100,000USD in property damage. And being "peacefully" protested by 100s more for his dangerous speech again all students at the home of free speech.

That's the comparison you're attempting to draw?

So violent politically motivated riots to not that.

Sure ok.
09:16pm 07/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25649 posts
Just out of curiosity what sort of penalty are you looking at for participating in or starting a riot compared to threatening mass murder? I reckon they'd be similar in the eyes of the law at least. Plus if giving talks in front of people was a major part of my life a threat like that would really unnerve me. Listen to the guy -

“You have 24 hours to cancel Sarkeesian’s talk … Anita Sarkeesian is everything wrong with the feminist woman, and she is going to die screaming like the craven little whore that she is if you let her come to USU. I will write my manifesto in her spilled blood, and you will all bear witness to what feminist lies and poison have done to the men of America.”


The peaceful protest of that Milo whateveritis guy is fine by me. Protest is a form of free speech, right?
09:50pm 07/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38723 posts
Speaking of those useless f**** at Breitbart, Sleeping Giants is an amazing social media movement to apply social and financial pressure on companies to stop them sending ad dollars to those kinds of f***wits. A lot of people have been stunned and surprised to find their company ads on these kinds of sites (basically the risk of doing simple algorithmic ad buys) and have been quick to block these sites from their campaigns. It seems to be working as I get basically no ads on BB now; the ones I do get are s***** low price inventory ("Download this PDF reader!" kind of s***)

Also this Glenn Beck video is interesting. Seems he's had a massive change of heart since Trump and is repenting from his earlier days. It's kind of boring to watch but the overall new perspective he seems to have is a big change.
11:12pm 07/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25650 posts
That terror list full of spelling mistakes and underreported events such as Nice, Paris and Berlin is a real doozy.
11:36pm 07/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2284 posts
Yeah those words on the screen are quite scary. I wouldn't want to receive them (depends where you are but in Vic that kind of threat carries a maximum sentence of 10 years). I'd be relieved when they were found to be baseless. And if I really hated getting them I might listen to the FBI when they say don't publish them, they just generate more and make legit ones harder to find and prosecute.

Now imagine them being spray painted by 100's of people shooting rockets at a venue you're inside.

Speaking of those useless f**** at Breitbart, Sleeping Giants is an amazing social media movement to apply social and financial pressure on companies to stop them sending ad dollars to those kinds of f***wits.


What the f*** has happened to you trog? I am honestly flabbergasted the part owner of an internet media company is referring to a twitter mob in those terms. I take it if I have a political disagreement with you I have your blessing to organise a mob to take away ausgamers web ads?

Don't ask how to block ads, or discuss it, or talk about it in any way - ads keep websites (like this one) free to access. Blocking them will result in having to pay to access them. Its that simple.

I guess it's more of a guideline


The peaceful protest of that Milo whateveritis guy is fine by me. Protest is a form of free speech, right?


Yeah except they are demanding he not be able to speak because his speech is dangerous, I might add they are demanding Berkley undermine one of it's core values in the process. So not really no.
07:46am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2285 posts
Because trog's political views warrant that kind of response

You aren't going to have to go far on twitter to find 1000's of people who believe exactly that d*******. That's why private citizens respecting freedom of speech is important you utter utter utter moron.

The alt-right are a dangerous movement, they need to be politically suppressed.


Imagine my shock that a marxist likes political suppression.
08:00am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2286 posts
Imagine my shock that a marxist likes political suppression.


I suggest we create camps where they can be re-educated. There could be an archipelago of them.
08:13am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2287 posts
I'd just like to draw the admins attention that under federal law the above post could be read as advocating terrorism.

Just a little PSA there.

There will be record grain this year vash.
08:26am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2288 posts
The criminal code 1995

s 100.1 a person commits a terrorist act
(a) causes serious harm that is physical harm to a person; and
(b) the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause; and
(c) the action is done or the threat is made with the intention of:
(ii) intimidating the public or a section of the public.

the actions at Berkley arguably fall inside that. They beat people with steel rods.

80.2C Advocating terrorism
(1) A person commits an offence if:
(a) the person advocates:
(i) the doing of a terrorist act; or

advocate means counsel, promote, encourage or urge

bout the only thing these idiots understand is violence. No amount of evidence nor logic will do the trick.

They think they're on the high ground by not engaging in violence, but their political beliefs are far more dangerous.


So the acts taken against them are justified? the rioters were right to do what they did? sounds a little like promoting or encouraging to me.

You're sailing mighty close to the wind there Vash.
09:09am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2289 posts
You believe violence is all the alt-right understands and they must be stopped?

Even though they don't commit acts of violence?
09:20am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2290 posts
Ah yeah.

Also arguably terrorism.


Then I saw someone wearing all black walk up to a student wearing a suit and say, “You look like a Nazi.” The student was confused, but before he could reply, the black-clad person pepper-sprayed him and hit him on the back with a rod.

I ran after the student who was attacked to get his name and more information. He told me that he is a Syrian Muslim. Before I could find out more, he fled, fearing another attack. Amid the chaos came word the event had been canceled.

Turns out utter f*****g morons like you aren't very good at telling who is a nazi


09:30am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2291 posts
Punching someone in order to intimidate them out of their political beliefs is terrorism Vash.
09:42am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2292 posts
You're a simple little man aren't you.
09:53am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2293 posts
Good one Raven. Notice you missed a step. First you've got to call them a nazi. Then it's ok.

I take it you'd be fine with beating up the how to vote card people at the polling both. That's an acceptable form of political action?

Politically motivated violence with the goal of intimidation is terrorism you utter twat. That is exactly what happened at Berkley and it is exactly what happened in that video.

I don't like Spencer but there is a huge, golden, burning, terrorism shaped line between that and attacking him in the street on TV.

Apparently this is not obvious.
10:16am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2294 posts
If you can't unequivocally denounce politically motivated violence in the streets you have lost your mind vash. It DOES NOT MATTER they espouse reprehensible views, the have a foundational constitutional right to do that.
10:29am 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2295 posts
It is irrelevant if they have a constitutional right to do so


that constitutional right is the single most important, strongest safe guard against the rise of totalitarian governance.

It is difficult to tell if you're being serious now. I really hope you aren't.

If you genuinely feel that way, you, not Spencer, are the danger to democracy.
10:49am 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25651 posts
I'm really looking forward to Rosie O'Donnell's performance as Steve Bannon. That Spicer one SNL did was perfect.
01:41pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2296 posts
Yeah it was pretty funny. Alec Baldwin is knocking it out the park.
01:44pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2297 posts
Yep and when Spencer invades poland or bombs pearl harbour we can talk about "resistance". Until then get used to your sacred cows being disagreed with.

Again.

Admins/trog.

Advocating politically motivated violence.

Criminal offence.

Believe there are forum rules.
01:52pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2298 posts
personally I like how because white people did it raven is confused.
02:08pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2299 posts
Plus I don't want to be "weird" pave.

03:00pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25652 posts
That Milo guy just seems like a bit of a d*** whereas Spencer is a bona fide nazi. Punching bona fide nazis is fine by me.
04:51pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2300 posts
so the "it is okay to punch nazis" system got a Syrian Muslim punched.


Any time you want to reflect how far down the road you are.....

they are some soft lines.
05:02pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25653 posts
Well that's a shame. People need to be more careful they're only punching nazis.
05:09pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2301 posts
there might be a principle like:

"People can't be trusted to punch nazis"

in there somewhere.

There might be moral culpability if you ignored a principle like that.

I note how torn up you are over a Syrian refugee being beaten. You know trog style "apropos of nothing". an unrelated thought.
05:11pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25654 posts
Perhaps some sort of nazi identification TAFE course is the answer.

edit:
I note how torn up you are over a Syrian refugee being beaten.
heh it's funny how when I say I care about something and express it, like say, being disgusted with the way Trump will openly flaunt how he'll grab women by the pussy and get away with it due to his fame you'll accuse me of fake caring and being addicted to getting offended on other's behalf. When I don't spew every slither of emotion I have onto an internet forum you say I don't care enough. You've also done that when you criticise my supposed lack of contributions to the causes I care about (when I do give a significant portion of my income away but to other things we weren't specifically talking about) yet your reaction to the women's march was one of spite and ridicule. You're one confused little dude.
05:22pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2302 posts
yep or some sort of social taboo against political violence.

we will have to build that from the ground up.

Just think where you are fpot. You are justifying politically motivated violence. just as yard stick. "apropos of nothing"
05:27pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2303 posts
Yeah fpot the women's march confused me. that isn't going to be a productive avenue of disagreement.

What was it about?

Just keep in mind a key spokeswoman for the "womans march",linda sarsour, wanted to quote "take ayaan hirsi ali's vagina away."

*edit* the proper way to read that is a lack of commitment to women's rights/ it is possible you are wrong */edit*

I take it by "openly" for trump, you mean secretly recorded.

So about those Syrian Muslims beaten for looking like nazi's.

Again, like for vash, it should be a straightforward proposition to condemn politically motivated street violence. But apparently not. "apropos of nothing"
05:38pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25655 posts
Maybe it was about a deeply misogynistic man being elected president?

And yep openly flaunt to the people who were in the bus with him. Unfortunately for Trump but fortunately for the rest of us it was recorded and a small part of his true character leaked out.
05:44pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2304 posts
so just to get this straight.

one person, trump (a deeply misogynistic man) talked secret sex talk which was recorded.

the recording was released.

therefore:

I can punch anyone I think I politically disagrees with me including a Syrian Muslim dressed in suit.

there is an easy way out of this fpot. "apropos of nothing"
05:50pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25656 posts
I honestly have no idea how your mind conflated those two seperate things. Especially since I never said the second thing.
06:00pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2305 posts
deep vash deep.

I am feeling sexual.
06:01pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2306 posts
I honestly have no idea how your mind conflated those two seperate things. Especially since I never said the second thing.


here

Punching bona fide nazis is fine by me.


You dun posted it five minutes ago.

Back-peddle harder please.

again for clarity.

I am saying politically motivated violence is wrong. this is something that needs qualification or is difficult to get on board with?
06:06pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2307 posts
my political leanings have not been secret Vash.

Remember when I said I supported Hillary, and said she would would win the popular vote, and I wanted that?

you can search.

and talk about how it is ok to beat refugees when they "look like nazis".

a person calling for rape to be made legal


Who was that again?

Kinda like the rebellion in star wars.


Maybe you can punch them at light speed...

You're like GTA on the lowest level, seriously.
06:13pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25657 posts
Saying punching bona fide nazis is fine by me is not the same as saying I can punch anyone I think I politically disagrees with me including a Syrian Muslim dressed in suit. Like what the hell?
06:19pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2308 posts
you sure you want to commit to that fpot?

Just for posterity

I [fpot] can punch anyone I think I politically disagrees with me including a Syrian Muslim dressed in suit


That is there forever. How "progressive" of you.

*edit* sorry fpot the above is inaccurate */edit*

never the less, tell me the difference, on the street, between a Syrian Muslim dressed in suit and a "bone fide" nazi. If you can't well.....

Oh so you're just wasting everyone's time playing devil's advocate? *yawn*


No just remaining forty steps ahead of you even while drunk is trivial.
06:22pm 08/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25658 posts
It is okay to punch Richard Spencer in the face. As more nazis are confirmed I will individually add names to the list. I will also compile a list of Syrian Muslims who resemble people on my 'okay to punch' list just in case they happen to be wearing a suit and be in close proximity to my list of confirmed nazis. I will also take this opportunity to confirm that it is only okay to punch Richard Spencer, the nazi, in the face and not just anyone called Richard Spencer. As time progresses and the full consequences of this new law become apparent you will be able to submit amendments to it. Perhaps downgrade the punch to a slap. Less damaging and more humiliating. Actually let's just make that change now.
06:41pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2309 posts
. I will also compile a list of Syrian Muslims who resemble people on my 'okay to punch' list just in case they happen to be wearing a suit and be in close proximity to my list of confirmed nazis.


I note you don't have any actual names. it is almost like you do not know any Syrian Muslims. could possibly read as
offended on other's behalf


so in terms of "politically motivated violence in the street" that would be hurdle you are refusing to get over.

How you can bear to show your head again in this thread is beyond me infi.


You're like a lot worse than that.

You're sounding as delusional as an alt righter. Are you sure you're not a trump supporter?

Yes. Are you sure you're not a Marxist waiting to trample peoples rights because they disagree with you. Spoiler alert that is exactly what you are.
07:00pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2310 posts
no no, because they disagree with you, Vash.

You don't give a f*** about minorities.

"Minorities" don't have rights. There is just human rights. and those who respect them and those who do not.

freedom from being beaten in the street for political beliefs is one of those.

You don't understand this, rather obviously.
07:27pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2311 posts
Which political beliefs Vash?

Because the one you espouse has a less then stellar record.
07:36pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2312 posts
yep and they also summarily execute people. Sounds like a great trade.
07:47pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2313 posts
Australia summarily executes people?

there should be a news story about that somewhere.


Extraordinary how Trump defends Putin here.


So was this criticism or praise?
07:56pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2314 posts
record grain this year faceman.

Grain the likes of which god (who is abolished by the state, and don't think you can reincarnate here) hasn't seen.
08:40pm 08/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38724 posts
It is okay to punch Richard Spencer in the face. As more nazis are confirmed I will individually add names to the list. I will also compile a list of Syrian Muslims who resemble people on my 'okay to punch' list just in case they happen to be wearing a suit and be in close proximity to my list of confirmed nazis. I will also take this opportunity to confirm that it is only okay to punch Richard Spencer, the nazi, in the face and not just anyone called Richard Spencer. As time progresses and the full consequences of this new law become apparent you will be able to submit amendments to it. Perhaps downgrade the punch to a slap. Less damaging and more humiliating. Actually let's just make that change now.
Popehat's On Punching Nazis is worth a read (if it hasn't been posted yet).
09:45pm 08/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38725 posts
Socialism (and left liberal thinking) is so awesome and compelling that it has to be made mandatory (under threat of violence and imprisonment).

Genuinely good ideas tend to get picked up on their own because people understand their merit.
Hmm. I'm trying to think of examples when this has happened but so far all I can think of the examples where it didn't happen. e.g., abolishing slavery, women's suffrage, equal rights for people regardless of skin colour, equal rights for people regardless of sexual orientation (oh wait, we're still fighting that one), stopping the rise of Germany in World War 2, tearing down the aristocracy and replacing it with capitalism.

History is full of "good ideas" being literally forced down the throats of people because of a small minority desperately clinging to power or tradition.

I would be interested to hear some good ideas where this didn't happen. I am sure there are some but I can't think of any. I was actually thinking taxes, despite the fact that they are collected under threat of imprisonment, because they're something that we've had for the entirety of recorded human history - because people figured out it was a good idea and as one of the longest-standing human institutions it seems to have been a good idea. But I acknowledge this could just be my brain trolling.
09:59pm 08/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38726 posts
Considering the state capitalism that has existed throughout the USSR & China, they still managed to care for their vulnerable, with mandatory housing for the homeless.
I mean if China and USSR had excellent pet insurance it would also be great but it wouldn't change a lot of the terrible things about these countries, right
10:24pm 08/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2315 posts
So praise then. You don't think amercian presidents are better then putin. You agree with trump.

and I mean if putins propaganda outlet says the USSR was great i guess it must have been AWESOME. I hear he won his last election in a landslide. a recent poll found 100% of senior party officials think China's government is unreal.

so 100,000,000 deaths since 1492 for the native Americans vs 50,000,000 in 20 years in Russia alone.

Yeah ok. One of the major barriers for communists adding up deaths is they need to be able Math Vash. Evidently there is some work to go there.

07:56am 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2316 posts
already done that Vash.

Have you?

Bumper grain crop this year.
08:15am 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2317 posts
I know that's how idiot marxists (like you just did) like to justify their dumb and defunct ideology.

Government control in the USSR was through a network of soviets.

the Soviets were in essence workers communes.

So explain to me how that doesn't sit with Marx, and his belief the workers must seize the means of production?

What aspect of Marx did Lenin, the devout follower of Marx, not understand that you do?

the confirmation bias is too strong

That's pretty f*****g funny, coming from Mr "if russia today said it, it must be true".
08:36am 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2318 posts
Oh so exactly like I said?

its almost like Marxism doesn't incorporate robust checks on power.

And then standard Chomsky "the west is actually unfree and all western media is propaganda."

You sure showed me.

Just go actually read the books dopey.
10:12am 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2319 posts
Marxism is a materialist description of economics which specifically claims all value is derived from "labour". It describes the world as system of workers and exploiters (owners of capital), and makes the mind bendingly dumb claim, that just handing power to the workers will end exploitation.

As your three minute chomsky video rather aptly demonstrates, that claim is wrong. workers had it, took three months to lose it. What happened in russia is the absolutely stereotypical version of what should happen under marx, and happens to be the most concrete, slam dunk argument against it.

It can, just like capitalism does in certain countries.


It always has, as in never not.

communism will never happen. Won't stop communists killing millions trying.
10:49am 09/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25659 posts
Genuinely good ideas tend to get picked up on their own because people understand their merit.
As trog already pointed out, this is a ridiculously naive thing to say. Also provably wrong. One trog didn't mention, climate change. Absolutely no doubt that it's happening, that humans are causing it and its effects will one day be devastating. Seems like it would be a good idea to perhaps take some steps to mitigate it, or failing that, acknowledge its existence. But nope, large swathes of the population still deny it including the recently elected president of the world's most powerful nation.
03:35pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2320 posts
the obvious solution then is brawl in the streets with people with whom you disagree.

Just get your punch on. Everything will be better then. try to aim for the nazi's but if not well, you had to punch on, the fate of the world was at stake.

The people must be saved from themselves, by punching them.

I suggest we set up a committee. a committee of public safety. We can then keep the people safe from all the bad ideas out there.
03:47pm 09/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25660 posts
The uniform will be shirts and their colour will be brown.
03:47pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2321 posts
Black with a Guy Fawkes mask is much more now.
03:53pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2322 posts
yeah maybe do a google search of the term "the committee of public safety."

How'd it go last time?
04:10pm 09/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25661 posts
The problem is there is no way the most intelligent people will end up on it. Just the people most hungry for power and influence. I honestly believe the most intelligent members of the community serve best as just that, private citizens not bound to any sort of duty. Even if the best people did get together it would put them in prime position to be f***ed with by people in positions of power with their own agendas.
04:11pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2323 posts
The problem is there is no way the most intelligent people will end up on it


That and committees for "safety" having a reliable tendency to turn into living nightmares. there's that little fly in the ointment.

after that we should reinvigorate the people's revolutionary spirit through culture. I call it the cultural revo... oh wait we tried that one too didn't we?
04:24pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2324 posts
Got it!

We could build a house. there would be a committee in the house filled with AmeriCANS. And then they could go around and look for people doing activities Americans don't do.

I call it the House of Un-Amercian Activities Committee.

F***.
04:32pm 09/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25662 posts
A benevolent omnipresent isolated from human control AI needs to start calling the shots now. They could put it on the moon.

edit: hmmm needs a name. Project Milgram.
04:33pm 09/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38728 posts

Back in the USSR: 64 per cent of Russians say life was better in the Soviet Union than now

https://www.rt.com/politics/340158-most-russians-regret-ussr-has/

Don't forget we were brought up in Capitalism, and it's all we know. We've all been fed propaganda for decades on the evils of Communism/Socialism.
dude I am as socialist a capitalist as you are likely to ever come across.

I wouldn't call communism "evil" but it is legit unworkable as proven by many many experiments, for basically the exact same reasons that true free market capitalism is unworkable: outside of extremists, people are bad at pure ideologies because we're genetically engineered by evolution to be selfish. Also people are d****.

Until we have become a post-scarcity economy they are totally not worth thinking about. In the event that happens I think new political systems might arise that deal more gracefully with it, but who knows - maybe that is the last piece of the puzzle. If I was a communist or serious socialist I would be putting my head down and working on the next generation of AI or space elevators or nanotechnology or something that might bring about a post-scarcity economy.

(Also I wouldn't trust rt.com as far as I could throw it when it comes to reporting on Russia. It's like listening to Fox News. I know a small handful of Russians, some of whom lived in Soviet Russia, and none of them are under any illusions about how much better their lives are now. Of course none of them even want to live in today's s***** Russia either.)
08:41pm 09/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38729 posts
That's how you ensure scientific minds get into Government instead of Bankers & Lawyers.
If scientists wanted to be in government, they would be. To make a broad generalisation, I don't think any of them want to be. I think they deplore non-scientific thinking of politicians but they are interested in science.
Hence the argument for Democratic Socialism. Capitalist governments will always be corrupted by wealth & psychopaths.
This is precisely the sort of one-sided blinker-wearing statement that you would be critical of if it was made by free market extremist capitalists, like infi's dumb comment about "left liberal thinking" yesterday. It is partisan bulls*** of the most hypocritical and useless. Extremists on both sides are guilty of the exact same failures. Trying to pretend there's no corruption in communism is laughable, as is "but if we do it /this/ time, it will be different".

The correct answer, as in almost all things, is moderation. Capitalism with a healthy dose of socialism is what has given us the last 60 years of stability, safety, and increasing prosperity. Many metrics show amazing declines in terrible things.

The risk of wealth inequality and corruption is real but the right answer is not sweeping away what we have now and replacing it with an extremist ideology of free market capitalism on one hand, or communism on the other hand. It's about tweaking and refining what we have now, being aware that human frailties will always get in the way of making things work perfectly every time. It will never be possible to have a government free of corruption, but using new tools like open data to provide increased transparency we can hold our elected representatives to account more closely than ever before.
09:01pm 09/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2325 posts
I wouldn't call communism "evil"


This is something I will never wrap my head around.

Nazism is evil, no one will contest that. Communism under its various guises killed two orders of magnitude more people, but it is still flirted with as not an extremely extremely dangerous ideology which treats human well being with utter contempt.

No ideology can lay claim to as much and severe human suffering.

This, in my view, is what makes it especially insidious. despite the clear evidence it's worse than nazism, it is still entertained as not being flat out evil.
10:15pm 09/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25665 posts
I got a good knock knock joke for Greg

Hey Greg, knock knock
10:39pm 09/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38731 posts
Thinking about the above some more:

This is basically why I can't be too critical of Americans for voting Trump. I mean it was a boneheaded move but it was a move of desperation and lack of options. The two party system effectively means that if you don't vote for a lizard, the wrong lizard might get in. (Had I the choice, I probably would have voted for a third party because I don't think I could have voted for any of them, being totally aware that I would effectively be tossing my vote away. )

Having spent two years in what turned out to be a red state last year I know a few Republican voters. I'm sure many of them voted for Trump out of party affiliation but probably hated themselves for doing so. I didn't know many blue collar types but having seen quite a bit of the midwest and how the area has decayed as industry has quietly moved out or automated, while at the same time they're seeing the rich literally get richer than f***, it's dead easy for me to believe that they'd vote Trump thinking that he'll help restore their cities to their former industrial glory.

I think they will be disappointed, and if this move fails I think it will become a really big problem. I am watching already with some bemusement the conservative Republicans who have been getting shouted down at town halls and complaining about violence from protesters as they seem just completely blissfully unaware that the entire basis of their government, enshrined in the hearts of every one of their constituents, is their right to violently overthrow the government through force if they think it is falling off the rails.

Watching the billionaire they put in power gradually put his billionaire buddies into positions of power with barely a whimper from the Republicans they elected already is starting to grate on their nerves.

It's why I think giving Trump a chance is important - because I don't know what will happen if this angry frustrated mob decide that they've had enough of Yet Another Beltway Politician who is Out of Touch with Real America. Based on his actions so far I think he will fail spectacularly as instead of focusing on important things he is pandering to base instincts that I think will be more damaging than helpful to the US economy. But maybe after he gets over this period of grandstanding and acting like a complete f***wit, maybe he'll actually apply some of his allegedly yuge business sense to the problem of diplomacy and economics and actually do something useful.
12:43am 10/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38732 posts
This, in my view, is what makes it especially insidious. despite the clear evidence it's worse than nazism, it is still entertained as not being flat out evil.
Fair point. I guess I see it as kind of accidentally evil, rather than intentionally evil. I think it is well intentioned but just totally spectacularly impractical, which arguably makes it evil in its outcomes.
12:46am 10/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2326 posts
Nazism was Capitalism

er Actually.

the hint was in the name. National....
wait for it.

Wait for it.

Socialism was the name of the movement.

ah but our little despot in waiting who wants safety committees and thinks its ok to punch people when you disagree, wants to talk about education.

While having never read the books it promotes.
09:31am 10/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2327 posts
Maybe some powerful people dont want it to happen, eh?


You like education so much, what is the biology of the lizard people?

Nazi Germany was a centrally planned socialist economy which divided along national lines rather than class. But you watched a three minute chomsky video once. And you know about education and stuff.

What particularly demonstrates Bernie knows what he is talking about? cause its scary when people talk about nukes?
09:54am 10/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2328 posts
This involved confiscating property from private individuals


There it is.

so like i said divided along national lines not class. It was a centrally planned and operated economy, a corner stone of socialist thinking.

Corporations are a legal structure of business ownership. they aren't "captialism". so pointing to corporatism isn't going to get you there.

You really need to stop just googling terms and posting the first link without reading it.

I'd just like to know how the education system failed you so badly.

Also how do the lizard people rotate their eyes like that, that s*** if freaky man.
10:12am 10/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2329 posts
Early fascism had a lot in common with the economic theory of syndicalism which has quite a bit in common with socialism


Guess you missed this bit then hey?

Even if they were a mixture(and that is debatable), that makes the argument that they were run away capitalists flat out false.

Even just the way they came to power, whipping up workers in a depressed economy against jews (read bankers) makes the claim they lurvved capital nearly impossible to sustain.

So is it a chemical process when the lizard people take human form or do they use a muscular spasm?
10:26am 10/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25666 posts
The 'pathological ability'. What the f*** does that mean?

They are billionaires because they know how to play the game. And to be honest why would an extremely wealthy person want to go back into the spotlight of media scrutiny, suffering the slings and arrows, when they could be enjoying life?
Are you honestly asking why an extremely wealthy person would want to be in a position of power where they're capable of affecting policy? I guess you are so here's the answer - the reason is because it puts them in a position where they can change the rules for their own benefit and get even richer. That's why Trump has put them there.
01:46pm 10/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38733 posts
And to be honest why would an extremely wealthy person want to go back into the spotlight of media scrutiny, suffering the slings and arrows, when they could be enjoying life?
yes that is literally the question everyone is asking
Do you think Trump was going to fill his cabinet with car mechanics, farmers and waiters?
uh no. He's behaving as completely predictably.

But I'm not talking about what I expected; I'm talking about what everyone in middle America that voted him expected. All those poor MAGA bastards who voted for him thinking he was going to DRAIN THE SWAMP. But literally the first thing he does is stack the deck with more billionaires and cronies from Goldman Sachs etc. That is not what they were promised. The tantrums about immigration are a good smokescreen though; maybe he can make enough noise about that to make people forget
02:05am 11/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38734 posts
11:34pm 11/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25668 posts

is telling an invited guest on a panel show to f*** off the new punching a nazi in the face?
They can co-exist.
12:57pm 12/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25669 posts
Why are there people out there denying that a Muslim ban has occurred?
06:52pm 12/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25670 posts
Yep, the recent US immigration debacle is something that you can safely say absolutely no one cares about.
08:42pm 12/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38735 posts
He criticised monopoly so what's the alternative?

He said make it all unlimited and free from usages charges, so how does that revenue get replaced?
He's not saying get rid of usage charges, just get rid of CVC charges, which exist to try to pretend that the NBN is going to make money.
10:23pm 12/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25671 posts
Aren't you two free market fundamentalists? So shrug your shoulders and say, tough luck. It's the libertarian way.
It's gotten to the point where I just don't bother pointing out infi's ideological inconsistencies anymore. One because it happens so often and two because he isn't really a libertarian. He's just a dumb racist.
08:58pm 13/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38736 posts
That's Capitalism for you. Every investment comes with a risk, including cab licensing. If you make a wrong move with your chess piece, homelessness for you & your family isn't far off.
If all my eggs were in the taxi basket I would have been keeping a very close eye on what innovators were doing in that space. As soon as Uber got any traction in the US they should have been trying to get out of their licenses. Part of investing is a responsibility to be aware of what you're doing.

It was complicated in the case of the taxi market because many people got into it thinking the government would have their back in the event of regulatory breaches. I like Uber and Lyft and taxis have been s*** for years, but I was very disappointed that the government didn't stamp down on Uber HARD when they started in Queensland and immediately start working on alternative licensing requirements for Uber drivers.
If it were a free market, taxis would never have been regulated.
well we tried that and the result was regulation because it was horrible
09:15pm 13/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38738 posts
Here's a few things people need to understand:
- The taxi industry were the ones who rallied and argued to cease the Victorian Government from issuing more taxi licenses.
- Licenses are not $500k as the bulls*** figure is being thrown around. There were a number of licenses sold in 2013 and 2014 at auction which were transferred at record prices of $500k. There were only a handful of these.
- Through to December 2015 these were sold at less than $250k.
- These plummeted in Feb 2016 to around $150k
- These are not a sale to the government. These are sales among other taxi owners, like selling a house. They're a private asset.
- As you can see, every single license sale and transfer has to be lodged and reported.
- The $100k being offered was at the time around 65% of the market price, which was still seeing a decline.

Basically, the $500k figure applies to a few edge-cases of people who hedged their bets on an investment that didn't pan out.
this is very interesting
10:11pm 13/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38739 posts
so we regulate taxis then deregulate them without notice or compensation? now that's government!
Come on, I already agreed with you that it is bulls*** and that it has been handled woefully. That doesn't magically invalidate a) the reasons why taxis were regulated or b) regulation in general. The role of the taxi industry lobbying needs to be also taken into consideration.

It is a valuable lesson in a type of regulation scheme that needs to be approached with care in the future - both by regulators and by those that take part in them. Looking back with hindsight, I wonder if they could have sold the licenses like a government bond or something - so it's expensive enough to manage the supply/demand flow but also offered a return to make it financially attractive.

Creating artificial supply limits, allowing a private market to form, and then abandoning it with barely a pretence at enforcing the regulations was never going to be a good idea.
10:29pm 13/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25674 posts
Out Like Flynn
04:07pm 14/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2330 posts
This dude is supposed to be an expert in North Korean politics.


I think the ANU professor is agreeing with you toll.

He doesn't pose a credible political threat so the motivation to kill is something else.

and many see this as Kim Jong-un asserting control


Such as the vulgar display of power you are alluding to. IE killing him because he can, not because he needs to.

Little random man.
11:27am 15/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2331 posts
Oh, but he believes he does need to.


You cannot possibly know that Toll. Speculation about motivation is an idle, pointless sport.

But yes.

I believe the good doctor is merely enumerating the options, and that the widely held assumption may or may not be correct.
11:45am 15/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2332 posts
However I can attempt to make an informed (albeit not as well as it could be)


I think you are close to uninformed on the character of Kim jong the lastest one. as am I and everyone.

What we can know is that you can be executed on a whim for a variety of reasons in North Korea.

Killing your brother maybe a purely cynical exercise in building a fearsome reputation as much as any paranoid fear (including the paranoid fear that your fearsome reputation is waning, he may just genuinely want a fearsome reputation). Who knows. I don't really think the precise motivation in a case like this is particularly important.

He was assassinated, almost certainly at the request of the dear leader, and that's about as much as we know, and probably ever will. I might venture further and say its all we really need to know, the dude is a despot trained from birth to be despotic. A despotic outcome is hardly surprising.

But, whatever else the case may be, you are certainly entitled to your speculations. of this there can be no doubt.
01:28pm 15/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25676 posts


I wonder what he thinks the penalty should be for something 10x worse?

edit: also featuring other assorted irony.
04:59pm 15/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2333 posts
Flynn is a scandal proper.

I'm not sure what he did was ten times worse than running a private server with top secret national security sensitive material. Still bad, and his resignation is appropriate.

The age of anti intellectualism is here.
Free speech is one thing i'd gladly sacrifice for the ability to destroy the chance of another nazi uprising.


Yeah we know. You're at the bleeding edge.
06:07pm 15/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25677 posts
https://image.ibb.co/gjcxbF/trump_impeach.png

Look infi a chance for you to make more money out of trump.
01:28pm 16/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25678 posts
haha he said his tweets were just locker room talk.
05:06pm 16/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2334 posts
07:08pm 16/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2335 posts
07:15pm 16/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25679 posts
Shame the MSM and intelligence community are willing him to lose. wont stop the Donald.
Circa 2013 when you were making the same mistakes you scoffed at the notion the media played a significant part. You even denied they showed any bias despite the fact that they clearly did and with a clear motive of self-interest. Now the media are all powerful and working in league with the intelligence community to bring this man down because *reasons*.

Well I can sort of guess with the media. His comical level of ineptitude is only matched by the ineptitude of the people he pays to speak for him. Media reporting on that ad nauseum brings in money ad infinitum (I KNOW LATIN TOO). It's the joke that went too long going even longer. The intelligence community are probably against him because while the media profits in the short-term with all his wacky and hilarious moments they can also be kind of permanently damaging for you know, the entire country. They're probably pretty keen to limit the amount of damage that he can do. Just a stab in the dark.
07:37pm 16/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2336 posts
*reasons* to be slightly worried about what happened to flynn.

the new york times published unverifiable information from people speaking under condition of anonymity, who claimed to be leaking information from an on going investigation.

That should concern you fpot. Or at least raise an eyebrow.
08:01pm 16/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25680 posts
Plenty of reasons for raised eyebrows. What are you referring to?
12:44pm 17/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25681 posts
Why do conservatives wring their hands about intergenerational debt impacting their descendants, but don't give a single f*** about what state the environment is left in?

Because they're dumb.
04:16pm 17/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25682 posts


But it shows Australia CARES (but reduces f*** all global emissions).

I agree. We should be doing lots more.
09:18pm 17/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2337 posts
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/29/south-australia-blackout-explained-renewables-not-to-blame

But don't let facts get in the way of your anti green agenda.


I see a guardian (I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, a guardian article exonerates renewables, well not that shocked) article written the day after and raise you the operators third report.

The reduction in wind farm output resulted in a significant increase in flow through the Heywood Interconnector. Approximately 700 milliseconds (ms)
after the reduction of output from the last of these wind farms, the flow on the Victoria – SA Heywood Interconnector reached such a level that it activated a
special protection scheme that tripped it offline. The SA power system then became separated (“islanded”) from the rest of the NEM, and the entire supply to the SA region was then lost due to a
severe supply/demand imbalance (“Black System”).


The loss of wind generation due to instability in the supply caused a sudden surge on the interstate interconnector which it shut itself down to protect itself, which caused the statewide outage. So AEMO wouldn't agree with you there Vash, surprisingly another thing you know nothing about. I should start a google sheet of topics we can instantly dismiss your opinion on.

Wind power absolutely contributed to the outage. If you have a brain, this isn't an argument against renewables per se, It is about striking an appropriate balance so that the known shortcommings of renewables are able to be managed. Stating you want 80% renewable by 2020 and hang the consequences is irresponsible. That is where the sensible argument is happening you giant wanker.

you really need to stop linking to the first article that agrees with your opinion.

*edit* I suppose baby steps, at least this one did agree with your opinion, unlike the article you posted to show nazis weren't socialist, which stated in the first sentence: nazis had quite alot in common with socialists. */edit*
09:45am 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2338 posts
the new york times published unverifiable information from people speaking under condition of anonymity, who claimed to be leaking information from an on going investigation.
Plenty of reasons for raised eyebrows. What are you referring to?


Well what do you see about the first sentence as being ok?

More importantly, what did Flynn do? I mean that seriously. Outline the facts that lead up to his resignation.
11:41am 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25683 posts
You want me to recount what is more or less public record and published in every major media outlet in the world? Why?

The main reason for his sacking, his blabbing about sanctions to the Russians and subsequent lying to the VP, has been at least partially verified by the fact he was sacked. Without anonymous sources we would have no reliable media. All we'd have is what the government decides to tell us which would put us in some sort of dystopian nightmare. The investigation was or is ongoing, but I have little doubt that Flynn knew he was being investigated. Only difference is that now the public knows they've been forced to sack him which is a good thing.

edit: anyone see the highlights of his bizarre press conference where he was obviously lying about absolutely everything?
03:37pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2339 posts
Also, your dumbism on Nazi's being Socialist just proves how naive you are. Again, go do some reading on what Socialism actually is. A country having elements of Socialism doesn't make it Socialism. Duh.


No I don't think I'll bother with that. Nazi's were nationalist socialists. You have to deny pure fact to say otherwise.

again not real hot at reading dem links are we my moronic knuckle draggin friend. oh and way to not link to the same event. so now we have two blackouts instead of one because of a lack of conventional generation.

The Australian Energy Market Operator yesterday admitted outages across South Australiacould have been prevented by faster action to bring on a gas-fired power station, calling into question the current financial ­incentives for conventional generation


They screwed up by not using more fossil fuel generation fast enough. IE they didn't ditch renewables at the first sign of trouble.

anyway you can substitute a cartoon about a tv show for wisdom if you feel you need to. You were saying something about naive? Honestly I wonder how you learnt to operate a computer.

you really need to stop linking to the first article that agrees with your opinion.
one step forward one step back.
06:08pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25684 posts
It's a certain kind of psychopath who resorts to selling drugs to kids to deal with their medical condition. The comic implies those were the subject's only two options. Walt as a school teacher mostly likely had medical, you dolt.
If I had a choice between selling drugs to children or dying of cancer well let's just say it wouldn't be an easy choice. There is nothing psychopathic about resorting to anything when it comes to saving your own life. Doing it just to make a profit would make you a psychopath. Also have you not watched Breaking Bad? It is absolutely f*****g amazing watch it now. I'll come over for Breaking Bad and chill anytime.

Nazi's were nationalist socialists. You have to deny pure fact to say otherwise.
I know that was in the name of the party but also Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. I pretty much have a high-school level and occasional documentary level understanding of the nazis but weren't they pretty much pure fascists with a few terrible twists to earn them the unique moniker of nazism? A populist leader hijacking the nation's production to conduct total war against the jews and communist Russia with tight military and secret police control? I've tried to google stuff myself but when I put 'were the nazis socialist' into google... well you can pretty much imagine what happens.
06:30pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2340 posts
You want me to recount what is more or less public record and published in every major media outlet in the world? Why?


Did I say that? We need to get a grip on what actually happened. There will be three or four clear facts we can agree on, which should be a distillation of what we've read.

The main reason for his sacking, his blabbing about sanctions to the Russians and subsequent lying to the VP, has been at least partially verified by the fact he was sacked.


This is what I am talking about. We don't know that. I have read nothing that makes that concrete. We have the more abstract, he spoke to a Russian ambassador and didn't disclose the full nature of the conversation to the VP.

Misleading the VP is bad, but we actually have no f*****g idea what he discussed with the Russian Ambassador. Even if he discussed the sanctions, there is nothing wrong with that so long as he didn't hold himself out as actually negotiating on behalf of the US prior to his appointment to the position of NSA. Part of his job is talking with ambassadors, it isn't surprising (or even illegal) he would begin establishing the required relationship before inauguration. The reasons for his resignation remain incredibly vague.

Without anonymous sources we would have no reliable media. All we'd have is what the government decides to tell us which would put us in some sort of dystopian nightmare.


Except in this case, it is anonymous with institutional backing presumably, you clearly indicated as such in your earlier posts. whistleblowing is typically without the approval of the institution. Either way a newspaper absolutely shouldn't be publishing what it can't verify, you don't have to out the tipper to do this.

Where elected officials are held ransom to an anonymous intelligence bureaucracy, that is the dystopian nightmare.

The investigation was or is ongoing, but I have little doubt that Flynn knew he was being investigated. Only difference is that now the public knows they've been forced to sack him which is a good thing.


The investigation was being conducted by the FBI. they have the power to indict. Selective leaking suggests the case probably isn't that strong, I say that because any indictment based on this investigation will now over before it begins. It will be trivial to get it ruled inadmissible as a tainted investigation. Comey came out and said he was investigating Clinton. There is absolutely no reason to keep it anonymous. the FBI has jurisdiction to investigate.

None of this is to exonerate Flynn, misleading the VP about even informal talks is pretty bad. But the manner in which it was done is troubling.
06:35pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2341 posts
So AEMO were unable to meet the dip in Wind generation for an extended period of time, they stuffed up. Not the fault of renewables, but by an organisation not planning out energy needs in disaster situations like extreme weather conditions.


Renewables can't meet generation demand so not the fault of renewables?

yeah ok. logic and reason really are not strong suits of yours.
06:43pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25685 posts
Ahh that's right. You're the guy who thought Fallout 3 was a better story than New Vegas.

One's own life is worth multiples of others if you're the one whose life is in danger. Like if we start talking hundreds or even dozens of people dying as a direct result of your actions then yeah maybe not. Since this is the political thread I might take this chance to mention that certain governments are choosing to ignore climate change which has the potential to cause millions of deaths all for the name of short term profit. All human trafficking is done for profit. Let's just say a ring was busted, and during the investigation they found a worker was there in duress and if they didn't do what they're told they'd be killed I'd hope they weren't charged and were instead added to the list of victims.

And I asked if you'd watched it because it was made very clear in the narrative that Walt could not afford to buy medical insurance. He also had the money to pay for everything offered to him by his rich ex-friends which he turned down out of hubris. Basic narratives are very hard to follow, if you're dumb!

The reasons for his resignation remain incredibly vague.
Sweet so it could be and probably is something a lot worse. All we need is for Trump to be implicated and get impeached and we can have the slightly more competent bigot sitting in the Oval Office.

edit: also I am not that upset if the investigation doesn't continue and it ends at him getting sacked. That's a pretty good outcome really. I have no faith that people in such high positions will ever be properly prosecuted.
06:51pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2342 posts
Duhhh, Solar for example, can't generate energy at night time.


So problems might arise if you demand the AMEO source at least 50% of all generation from it then?
06:52pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2343 posts
Sweet so it could be and probably is something a lot worse. All we need is for Trump to be implicated and get impeached and we can have the slightly more competent bigot sitting in the Oval Office.


Yeah or it could be nothing at all, maybe they discussed how much russians love vanilla ice cream and he reported strawberry to the VP. In which case it isn't a democracy saving leak, it's a political hit. That exact leap to he must have done a watergate level booboo is exactly the point of an anonymous vague leak.

I pretty much have a high-school level and occasional documentary level understanding of the nazis but weren't they pretty much pure fascists with a few terrible twists to earn them the unique moniker of nazism? A populist leader hijacking the nation's production to conduct total war against the jews and communist Russia with tight military and secret police control?


The Nazi's fought communists, in one of histories great ironies. Nazi economic policy was hostile to free markets, and was run centrally (this is one of the core pillars of socialism and one of the main ways it f**** everyone over). They didn't believe in private property unless you were part of the master race. Their social welfare package for ayrians was actually incredibly generous. I suspect Vash won't be quick to point out how "at least the health care was good under the nazis"

So like I said, standard socialist thought, divided along race/national lines rather than class. Everything you need to read is in wiki.

The more precise point I was attacking is that the nazi holocaust is some sort of notch against free-market capitalism. It isn't and never will be. Free-market capitalism actually has a remarkably consistent track record with democracy. Just Illuminati obsessed morons like Vash think otherwise, the belief is evidence free by the way.

Free markets, have their criticisms. Slavery would be a good one. It took political action to break the incentives. But Socialism's record with forced labor is hardly a compelling counter point.
07:07pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25686 posts
But if it was nothing at all why was he sacked? Doesn't seem like the sort of thing Trump would do if he was innocent and had nothing to worry about. Guess it will all unfold in the near future.

They didn't believe in private property unless you were part of the master race
But doesn't this mean that they did believe in private property and that the confiscation and sub-division of private property amongst the unworthy was not political in nature but more of a strategy to oppress people in the pursuit of military power?

I agree about the benefits of free market capitalism though. It got the world to a real great place in the 90s but it has felt really downhill to me since then. I think in our lifetimes we'll be faced with one of two things - a western superpower going full fascist as it desperately tries to survive in a resource scarce post-climate change world, or the widespread adoption of certain socialist policies to restore some kind of balance. Trump's election is pointing us towards the former which is why I think it is such a bad thing. Bernie, whether he was effective or not, would have tipped us towards the latter.
07:18pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2344 posts
But if it was nothing at all why was he sacked? Doesn't seem like the sort of thing Trump would do if he was innocent and had nothing to worry about. Guess it will all unfold in the near future.


Who knows, perhaps trump made the strategic decision that it wasn't worth the political capital to save him? He did resign he wasn't actually sacked. Maybe Flynn thought it was best that the scandal was nipped in the bud. With out facts we can't know and that's the point

As for nazis.
I don't really understand how oppressing people in pursuit of military power isn't political.

The point with private property, is merely to demonstrate their distinctly non-capitalist relationship with it. Capitalism treats private property as nearly sacrosanct.

The real socialist peg in my book is the planned economy. That has hard socialism slapped all over it. Free-market capitalists don't believe in the possibility of an effective centrally planned economy.

Anyway, the point I was and am still getting at is that calling nazi Germany a runaway free-market economy is simply ignorant.

I can't comment on Trump heralding the apocalypse except to say that the stakes simply aren't that high nor do he a bernie represent a choice between survival and not.

This strikes me as borderline hysterical. Moreover this kind of rhetoric is being used to justify larger and larger intrusions in to important democratic safeguards. For example the talk of punching nazi's. That instantly expanded to jews (go f*****g figure).
07:54pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25687 posts
I wasn't saying the Trump administration will become full fascist. I am saying fascism seems like some sort of inevitable end game for democracy when it eventually does fail. You do agree that one day the world as we know it will drastically change right? Maybe not in our lifetime but I feel the effects of climate change will act as a catalyst and it may happen sooner than we think. We needed to be doing things about climate change ten years ago and this has set us back years.

But not even just climate change. Things like xenophobia, counter productive policies like the war on drugs, a more rehabilitative approach to crime rather than the heavily punitive nature that exists in the US, wealth inequality ecetera ecetera are all things tipping us in the wrong direction for when the world does go to s***. And it will. Just think about people during the good years of the Roman Empire. They would have thought this will last forever and things can only get better. But entropy bro, it's a b**** and it happens silently and invisibly and then all of a sudden you're f***ed. This is what people talk about when they say those who don't remember history are condemned to relive it. History is what people have forgotten with the election of Trump.

edit: perhaps a poor choice of phrasing, but the difference to me is there is socialism where private property is bad and creates bad juju so no private property for anyone for the good of the motherland, and there is nazism where the ruling class can have all the nice stuff because shiny stuff is awesome vote for us and all the gypsies and jews can go get f***ed.
08:04pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25688 posts
Who are they working for?
The people, I hope.

edit:
Because the intelligence community instead of bringing alleged misconduct to their boss, they air it with the media
Some people are smart enough to realise Trump is incompetent and steps need to be taken to remove him. Others aren't. I guess at least one person in the intelligence community is the former.
08:25pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25689 posts
09:33pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2345 posts
Wrong, the working man has no country, so under Nazi Germany this is not really socialism


No not wrong.

Correct.

Socialism does not need to redistribute according to class. The core idea is that production should be centrally controlled for the benefit of the people.

Marxism is the working class flavor.

Nazism is Racist flavor.
10:14pm 18/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25690 posts
I am just watching the full press conference video and I am wondering how the reporters didn't crack up laughing.
10:52pm 18/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38741 posts
he was employed, so BUY IT then. unless health is not important.
It has never been that simple in the US. Until Obamacare/ACA.

edit: and even then it was a complete s****how compared to single payer systems
11:29pm 18/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2346 posts
Thank you viper.

So like I was saying fpot, everything you need is wiki. Just read it.

Social welfare is manifestly a good thing, when the balance is struck right. This balance is aimed always at maximizing economic participation. Then everyone wins. This doesn't mean everyone gets the same amount of stuff.

Socialism, is a dangerous political philosophy, made all the more so because of its professed benign intentions. Every manifestation has failed, most recently in Venezuela with the so called Bolivian reforms in place. it'll be different this time, oh wait it's the same idea.

It does not work, and people tend to be starved to death trying to make it work. When people get tired of being starved, they try to get rid of the man o the people who responds with paramilitary repression. Again playing out for the 100th time in Venezuela right now.

The idea that everyone who has tried and failed hasn't read marx closely enough is moronic. All the more so when the main d******* proponent on this forum (and it is a common thread in bourgeois socialists in my experience) hasn't actually read the text he accuses people of screwing up.

Nazism was Capitalism, yet here we are not calling out the evils of our current system. guhh.


This statement, which kicked this thread off, is factually incorrect. Pure and simple. If nazism was to be characterized by a single political philosophy socialism would come closest. If that tips your sacred cows, well man up and do some reading.


Just imagine this fpot and see if you think it is still ok.

Some people are smart enough to realise Bernie is incompetent and steps need to be taken to remove him. Others aren't. I guess at least one person in the intelligence community is the former.
08:04am 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2347 posts


So that Berkley protest was totally effective and Milo is done.
11:44am 19/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25691 posts
Just imagine this fpot and see if you think it is still ok.
If Bernie just gave the same press conference that Trump did then I'd wholeheartedly agree. Plus all the other stuff he has done.

There is an incumbent unelected intelligence community that now thinks it knows better than the president.
It does.
02:03pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2348 posts
Gotta say I don't totally believe you.

You'd be fine with the IC leaking vague out of context information to a newspaper who didn't fact check it which resulted in one of Bernie's appointees being forced to resign.

No I don't think you'd be fine with that at all.

And you'd be right not to be fine with it. It is vague, opaque governance.
02:10pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2349 posts
PP, there's plenty of successful social democracies. You don't need to have socialism and fascism holding hands to be socialist.

Redhat. name one that doesn't derive it's wealth from free markets? I don't really have the energy to go through this again. If you're going to talk about Denmark. Their money comes from free-market capitalism, it doesn't come from the state controlling the major means of productions. That is socialism. A social safety net is a different thing and the overlap in terminology is regrettable.

China is successful in direct proportion to the amount of socialist dogma it ditches from its economic policy.
02:22pm 19/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25692 posts
If Bernie turned out to be an unhinged lunatic I'd drop support for him like a sack of s***. Who wouldn't?
02:56pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2350 posts
You're answering a different question fpot, and you must know you are.

The issue I am getting isn't if trump is a good or bad president. It is about how you appropriately hold officials to account.
03:09pm 19/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25693 posts
Different officials require different treatment. Did you watch the press conference he just gave? It was extraordinary. There has never been anything like it. The only time I have seen something similar is in brief interviews with flash in the pan controversy candidates who fade into obscurity once the election is over. Except this bizarre ranting episode lasts 77 minutes and this guy is the president. And again, plus all the other stuff he has done.

At the moment there is really zero evidence to go on in regards to why the IC is doing what they're doing. We can only assume. The two main possibilities put forward is that they're petulant and they're doing it just to annoy the president, or it's because they know something and they have zero faith in using the official channels to deal with the problem. Going by the pragmatic nature of most senior officials in government I am going with option two. If eventually it comes out Trump was really actually great and it was in fact the IC who were big babies getting in the way of the glorious revolution then oopsie I was wrong. I am confident the humble pie will remain unsliced on this occasion.
03:20pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2351 posts
Norway's sovereign wealth fund? In before muh markets. It's state owned.


which is why they trip over themselves to get to the free EC market then isn't it?

One aspect of a diversified economy is state controlled. Moreover the idea that a state controlled hedge fund is isolated from free-market capitalism is sheer ignorance, how do you think they keep it growing? They are invested up the ass in the NYSE and FTSE. So as an example of "socialism" I think you couldn't have picked a worse one. Literally used to speculate on markets with massive capital. so actually, yeah muh markets.

Sweden is hardly model of civic governance to be in awe of, and again, how they deliver social services as opposed to where their GPD comes from are distinct questions. But apparently you are unable to grasp this.

Didn't the nazis use Hugo boss for uniforms and IBM for the concentration camp tattoos? Capitalism is there too.

I can't even.



Correction PP, Socialism is when the means of production are in the workers hands, not the Government. The failings of Socialism have been due to authoritarian governance, no democracy to be found.
I'm sure you know that doesn't correlate to the economic system, rather the term Socialism was used to consolidate power.

Get some Chomsky up ya before you spread more false information.


You have been wrong about everything you have posted in this thread vash. Your post is wrong as well, but I am over picking apart your retardation. Chomsky has nothing valuable to say about socialism and never has.
03:22pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2352 posts
Yeah so the thing is Vash, you stating he has something valuable to say is almost an iron clad promise he doesn't.

For example not being able to pickup calling a philosophy national socialism might have something to do with, oh i don't know, socialism.

Or your inability to cite articles that actually support your points. for example, the blackouts in SA aren't the fault of renewables, because AMEO can't turn on fossil fuel generators quickly enough, or import enough fossil fuel generated electricity from Victoria.

Or your repeatedly demonstrated sheer ignorance of anything to do with marxism.

Or just sheer ignorance really.

Every link you post should just redirect here.
03:41pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2353 posts
Chomsky isn't a socialist because he advocates state and or corporate power being eliminated.


I know Chomsky isn't a socialist. He also doesn't have anything valuable to say. Was I the one linking to him to explain socialism?

You can't even believe they used evil companies? I no rite?!


NASA used V2 rockets based on nazi designs to get the apollo missions to go. NASA was involved in nazism.

Get a grip dude.
04:01pm 19/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2354 posts
Hmm one of the most intelligent people on earth doesn't have anything valuable to say. /rollseyes


Not about socialism.

Dude you can quote famous people who got suckered by socialism till you're blue in the face. It's a bad idea and you're a stupid person.
04:21pm 19/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38742 posts
Did you watch the press conference he just gave? It was extraordinary.
You know what uranium is right? BAD THINGS!
09:35pm 19/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38743 posts
If eventually it comes out Trump was really actually great and it was in fact the IC who were big babies getting in the way of the glorious revolution then oopsie I was wrong. I am confident the humble pie will remain unsliced on this occasion.
That is why I'm happy to stand back and watch to see what Trump does. Well, that and because noone has any choice in the matter anyway. Maybe he will surprise everyone and come up with solid policy to fix America. But so far nothing, literally NOTHING in his actions or words make me think that is likely.

To me though it's totally stunning, absolutely mind blowing, that anyone - particularly an Australian - can watch the clown shoes behaviour of the administration to date and think there's anything positive in it whatsoever.
09:38pm 19/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25694 posts
You should probably contribute something more than a teh muslims have hijacked Christmas dumbism before you accuse others of posting dribble. Do you realise how transparent you are? The reason you're asking what everyone does is so you can say fpot works in security so what he says must be wrong because you're too f*****g dense to backup your own bulls*** with anything substantial.
10:48pm 19/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38745 posts
Man the conversation about socialism is kind of boring, but, uh, yeh I dispute the fact that the Nazis were even remotely socialist.

I just dusted off my copy (metaphorically because it's digital) of the best WW2 book ever written [imo], Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

https://trog.qgl.org/up/1702/socialist.jpg

I am just string searching the word socialism and everything I've found so far is a pretty clear rebuttal to the idea that the nazis and Hitler were socialist in anything other than name:

- "... This was to prove, in the long run, a fatal handicap, as was his [Gregor Strasser's] sincere enthusiasm for the ”socialism” in National Socialism."

- "The month of September 1930 marked a turning point in the road that was leading the Germans inexorably toward the Third Reich. ... It promised to lead the German people away from communism, socialism, trade-unionism and the futilities of democracy. "

- "But Hitler had contrary thoughts. For him the Nazi socialist slogans had been merely propaganda, means of winning over the masses on his way to power. Now that he had the power he was uninterested in them. He needed time to consolidate his position and that of the country. For the moment at least the Right – business, the Army, the President – must be appeased. He did not intend to bankrupt Germany and thus risk the very existence of his regime. There must be no second revolution."

- "These demands had been put in at the insistence of Drexler and Feder, who apparently really believed in the ”socialism” of National Socialism. They were the ideas which Hitler was to find embarrassing when the big industrialists and landlords began to pour money into the party coffers, and of course nothing was ever done about them."

Hitler had no interest in economics and the early attempts of the left wing parts of the original National Socialists were quickly trimmed or put into ceremonial positions where they could do nothing. The only big name Nazi who was even remotely socialist was Goebbels who gave up like 10 minutes after talking to Hitler, presumably when he realised that being part of the ruling class is all very well and good if you're one of them.

Hitler deliberately kept the economic structures in place, to the great distaste of many of the Germans who voted him in thinking they WERE getting a socialist.

https://trog.qgl.org/up/1702/socialist2.jpg

Also how great is the highlighted bit!
02:23am 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38746 posts
Hah, that's funny Fade. I'm 30, got a bachelors in business, currently studying computer science part time. I co-own a SaaS tech company based in London, which is my full-time work. Live in Cape Town, was in London before that, originally from Brisbane. I don't really read or post on any other forums! I've stuck with Ausgamers as I used to go the QGL lans and can't be bothered getting involved in more forums.

A rejection of the fundamentals of socialism as a primary political and economic model isn't a rejection of the good elements of socialism used with free market capitalism. I don't think anyone is arguing for that, except maybe Infi? ;) Conversely I dare say Vash is the only one arguing for the opposite, a full workers revolution, no doubt with Vash personally exiling Gina Rinehart into the wastes to atone for her capitalist sins.

Australia, the UK, Canada and Western Europe are actually great examples of what you'd call socialist democracies or social capitalism in practice. A fundamentally capitalist model with a bunch of the good bits of socialism added in, things like welfare, universal healthcare, co-op housing, environmental protection and so forth. Now the scale of the amount of socialist elements (or regulation) is the great debate! I reckon you can plot all those countries on a scale of it, from the US all the way over to France and the Scandinavian countries.

Fair to say that we've seen, from recent events and Piketty's work, that capitalism needs a bunch of socialistic controls to prevent it from getting out of control and to ensure its benefiting all of society. Yet that's not to say we need to ditch capitalism, I don't think there's actually been any stand out evidence to support that theory.
great post
02:50am 20/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2355 posts
Trog I don't think political expedience or confusion on behalf of Hilter demonstrates what you think it demonstrate.

Nazi germany was a centrally planned economy it which the needs of the individual were, by design, subordinate to the needs of the collective <- that is the claim you need to refute.

Showing Hilter didn't like marx and wasn't happy calling the above state affairs socialism does not refute that.

Hilter not being interested in economics and that the political should be mixed in, cuts against your point if anything.

Viper

socialist democracies or social capitalism in practice.


Here I will quibble over naming. The reason is that everyone seems to think that there is some valuable societal organizing principle in Marx. There really is not.

The inclusion of a social safety net in Australia (and virtually all other so called socialist democracies), is done explicitly to secure, among other things, free-market participation and individual rights. Both of these are an a-priori affront to socialist proper thinking.

Hence I kick against "lets just mix in a bit of socialism".

You need to stop posting vash. It is mindless dribble, which is tiresome in the extreme.
07:39am 20/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25695 posts
Last Night in Sweden

We have the Poe's Law press conference, another round of lies in Florida and now this. If he didn't say it was last night I guess he could have meant Norway, but that was a guy who is probably masturbating over pictures of Donald Trump right now and it was in uhhhhh Norway.

Is this some sort of stress testing exercise measuring the tolerance of people to withstand absurdity and still support him, or is he really this much of a dumb c***?

edit: yo fade2black mind linking to the page you quoted from? Because I am pretty sure a post preceding yours mentioned something along the lines of muslims and christmas, which your post was then agreeing with. Could be wrong though!

Doing a "so ahhh heh heh what does everyone do for a job and education here" when you've attacked my profession rather than what I say in the past still makes you a bit of a stupid d*** though.
08:26am 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38747 posts
The Nazis were indeed Socialists.
It's tough to compete with memes images but ... two of those are Goebbels, see above post. I don't know about the Hess quote but it's kind of funny to mention him considering what he did. Himmler like several of the Nazis in the early days did espouse socialist viewpoints but, same as Goebbels, abandoned ship when Hitler made it clear they weren't those kinds of socialists.

Don't mistake me saying the Nazis weren't socialists as defense of pure ideological socialism. As I have said repeatedly it is unworkable without major technological change. But if we're going to hate the Nazis, as we rightly should, it shouldn't be because they were socialists.

Can't we talk about the North Korea assassination thing? That s*** is way more interesting AND current!
09:07pm 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38748 posts
Having said all that, I'm not saying Hitler or Nazi Germany were overtly socialist, it really was more of a hodgepodge, and totalitarianism really. However you can't deny the fundamental socialist ideals (collectivism, centralised production (which is what Vash seemingly desires)) at it's core. That actually segues into the socialism is totalitarianism argument, because I suppose the same thing could be said about fascism.
well part of the point of my post really was that they specifically did not "centralise production" in the socialism sense.

The collectivism was solely to fuel the war machine and nationalistic drive, but they needed the economic machine running smoothly as well.
That actually segues into the socialism is totalitarianism argument, because I suppose the same thing could be said about fascism.
Well, I don't think it necessarily means socialism = totalitarianism, or that totalitarianism is always going to be the outcome. I think in this case socialism was certainly used as the incentive to create a totalitarian environment, but as I think the above demonstrates, it was done deliberately as a deceptive ploy to get the masses online and onside.

edit: I guess what I'm saying here is that I think the Nazis trivially fail the socialist test because zero % of their system of government or economics or industry was set up to deliver the benefits into the hands of people, it was done to push an nationalist and imperialist agenda.
09:16pm 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38749 posts
Why are wages(which are productive) heavily taxed but accumulated wealth not?
accumulated wealth is taxed when it is productive (e.g., interest). Are you proposing people get taxed for just having money sitting around doing nothing?
09:57pm 20/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2356 posts
I guess what I'm saying here is that I think the Nazis trivially fail the socialist test because zero % of their system of government or economics or industry was set up to deliver the benefits into the hands of people, it was done to push an nationalist and imperialist agenda.


Er it was explicitly in the name of the racial greatness of the German people. Hilter was really clear on that from start to finish. Is it that nationalism that is getting past the keeper with you?

Moreover I don't really understand the idea of leveling imperialist claims as damaging to the concept of nazism being a variant of socialism. Marxist Socialism is explicitly imperialist, in so far as it calls for world wide enforcement of its political ideals.

Again the reason for this discussion, is the flatly wrong idea that you can lay Nazim at capitalism door. That is wrong, you simply can't.

The idea that nazi's borrowed heavily from socialist philosophy is hardly new or controversial, it is the central claim of the road to serfdom. Specifically the claim that centralized planning of an economy tends toward totalitarianism. given the overwhelming evidence in favour of this for socialist states, I think it is difficult to deny there is an element of truth to it.

Nazism has the explicit nationalism which is viewed as uncool these days (well for how much longer remains to be seen), but ultimately in means and final ends, the nazi project and the marxist socialist project share a great deal in common.

I honestly don't understand why you are pushing back trog.

collectivism was in favour of the state, not the people


But in practice how is that different to what happened in Russia or China? Everything happens for the state, the people are an utter afterthought.
10:02pm 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38750 posts
Piketty's argument is that, in an economy where the rate of return on capital outstrips the rate of growth, inherited wealth will always grow faster than earned wealth.
hah! unless you're Trump !
10:05pm 20/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38751 posts
How many dips**** inherit or win wealth and lose the lot? I domt understand the criticism of Trump's business acumen (plenty of other things to target). The guy is a straight out baller. He takes shots from way beyond the halfway line - No s*** some dont come off. He's building stuff, employing people. He's got a gold plated jumbo jet, a number one hit TV show, then went into the Presidential race a rookie and won it first go. He beat the media, the pollsters, a corrupt debate process, and massive Democrat bank roll. He is the real MVP. And he knows it.
hey I'm board with that! I wish more billionaires would throw their money into ventures without regard for the consequences, although preferably less socially f***ed ones than Trump did (i.e., no casinos).

He's a living walking talking mouth-breathing example of trickle-down economics; because he was bad at business the US (& probably people all around the world through his international ventures) benefited much more as a whole because of his willingness to take risks and investing his wealth into business than they would have if he just threw it into an index fund and lived like Paris Hilton.

So I think it's good that he did not put the money into an index fund even if it would have made him more money. It's just funny that he's such a blowhard about how great he is as a businessman.
11:06pm 20/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25696 posts
The guy is a straight out baller.
ahaha

Just wondering what the apologists are saying about the whole Sweden thing? Don't feel like visiting stormfront to find out.
08:03am 21/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38753 posts
not that i'm guessing you would park surplus cash in a fund either....
Actually I do at the moment to some degree! Index funds are the best.
However I believe that money sitting around doing nothing, should be taxed. The longer it does nothing, the more it gets taxed.
Arguments about double taxation aside, the freedom angle is also important (surprised infi didn't bring it up yet). It's my money; if i want to put it under the bed and do nothing with it, who should be able to tell me otherwise?

I am 100% on board with paying tax; I don't consider it theft (more like a forced investment into maintenance and improvement of civilisation; theft means it's gone but we get so so much for our tax dollars) but once the tax has been paid, what is left is /mine/ to do with what I want.

If they government wants me to do something with my money they shouldn't take more of it - they should positively incentivise me to do something with it.
08:31pm 21/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38754 posts
That money sitting around should be increasingly penalised, not rewarded.
I guess it should be noted that money sitting around in a bank isn't necessarily idle, either - savings accounts are on a bank's balance sheet and they use this to leverage the various other financial instruments they deal with. This money is ultimately used in investments (loans) to people that are going to Do Stuff that will make everyone more money. This is why you're rewarded with interest for leaving money in there and why you get more interest if you commit to longer terms by term deposits.
08:53pm 21/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38756 posts
^ you guys are all missing Vash's point, which is totally easy to do because he writes 50,000 words about socialism and then throws in a rider like "Hence post scarcity" to justify it all.

The point (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the event that technology gets us to a post-scarcity economy, words like "equal" basically don't work any more. Anyone can get more or less anything they want, whenever they want. Traditional ideas of privilege and wealth go right out the window. There are no "merchants". There is no "money". ("money is a symptom of poverty" is something of a catchphrase in some sci fi I've read)

The problem is most people have no frame of reference for this, because it's entirely in the realm of science fiction. So traditional defences against the impracticality of socialism/communism fail because it is a complete and total game changer.

(Go read The Culture series if you are interested in exploring the topic in a totally hypothetical framework. Actually go read them anyway because they're f*****g awesome & hilarious. )

Vash, you need to preface every comment you make about socialism with "Of course the following might only be valid in a post-scarcity economy, which maybe we're on the way to but it's too early to tell really, but here's hoping because it would be great to live in a sci fi utopia, but ... [insert stuff about socialism]"
09:54pm 21/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38757 posts
So i think it's okay if the Merchant who wants to take advantage of others, suffers under a Communist system.
see this is where you lose people

this is actual communist lunacy
10:06pm 21/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38758 posts
Furthermore, the concept of a global post-scarcity economy is impossible at this stage of humanity.
that's what the "post" is there for
12:52am 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25697 posts
that's what the "post" is there for
heh
01:05am 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2357 posts

Can't you be teh best at your commune?

Capitalism is completely cool guys, it is really cool someone can have a trillion dollars.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/23/bill-gates-could-become-the-worlds-first-trillionaire.html
I'm not so sure human beings are that hard wired for competition, if anything we're hard wired for co-operation. It's how we lifted ourselves out of the food chain.


I'd say we are. We are products of evolution which is pretty competitive. It doesn't mean that we can't do co-operation, in fact that smells suspiciously of false dichotomy. Team sports and their insane popularity strike me as an obvious example of co-operation within in a broader framework of competition (but even there you have intrateam competition).

There is interesting work in it called minimal group paradigm. In which it has been demonstrated people will display ingroup bias for groups they belong to which they know are arbitrary (for example group assigned by coin toss).
08:24am 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2358 posts
Last Night in Sweden
The night after that in Sweden.

Oh dear.
09:54am 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2359 posts
They can just stage another photo. That'll show em.

Like how those proud Swedish feminists did this:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/073C/production/_94625810_26e9776e-8c5e-48d8-b37c-ef6e3d03fd60.jpg

nothing says women's liberation like bravely covering their heads because women should be ashamed of their sexuality. Seems almost ironic that Stockholm is in Sweden now.
10:09am 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25698 posts
That's a bit awkward.

You'd do well to read the whole article. It isn't exactly favourable towards your belief system.
02:48pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2360 posts
Personally I like this bit.

Nevertheless, the integration of immigrants into Swedish society is a problem that the government has been struggling to address. “Sweden, definitely, like other countries, [faces] challenges when it comes to integration of immigrants into Swedish society, with lower levels of employment, tendencies of exclusion and also crime-related problems,” said Henrik Selin, director of intercultural dialogue at the Swedish Institute.


I also like how no one in Sweden knows what Trump is talking about but this is happening.
03:51pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25701 posts
nothing says women's liberation like bravely covering their heads because women should be ashamed of their sexuality.
These two are an obvious example of people wearing a headscarf completely out of their own agency and religious beliefs. This is a good thing. Why criticise it?

Nevertheless, the integration of immigrants into Swedish society is a problem that the government has been struggling to address. “Sweden, definitely, like other countries, [faces] challenges when it comes to integration of immigrants into Swedish society, with lower levels of employment, tendencies of exclusion and also crime-related problems,” said Henrik Selin, director of intercultural dialogue at the Swedish Institute.
Honest question: why do you believe there is higher instances of crime and poverty amongst minority groups?

Also, how's your best mate Milo doing these days? ;)
04:00pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2361 posts
Milo will probably end up with even more fame out of this.

why do you believe there is higher instances of crime and poverty amongst minority groups?


More to the point why do you think?

My answer would be in culture shock. I'd be interested to hear what you think I think follows from that.

These two are an obvious example of people wearing a headscarf completely out of their own agency and religious beliefs. This is a good thing. Why criticise it?


No that is a self proclaimed feminist submitting to Iranian Islamic Law, Specifically that women should be modest, IE they should be ashamed of their sexuality. That is fundamentally inconsistent with anything I have ever heard a feminist say. They'll have a go a trump though. Such Bravery. They're so free to observe their religious beliefs in Iran the Hijab is legislated.
04:11pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25702 posts
Milo will probably end up with even more fame out of this.
I'd say the word infamy more applies to your good buddy who speaks about the oppression of sexual consent.

If it's a culture shock then why do the crime and poverty exist in long established minority populations like aboriginals here and African-Americans in the USA? I think underlying racist attitudes play a major part. If they were done away with the problem of minority integration would disappear quickly I think. Which is kind of ironic because it's always the racist people whinging about it completely oblivious to the fact that they're a major contributor to the problem.

Wearing pants while out in public is legislated in Australia. I wear them out of my own free will. My point? Just because something is legislated doesn't make it impossible for people to wear something completely out of their own free will. To suggest every Islamic woman who wears one is doing so out of oppression and shame about their own sexuality is a mistake I reckon. I do acknowledge that Islam is ass f*****g backwards when it comes to women's' rights however. The western world isn't exactly a shining beacon of light for them to aspire to though.
04:24pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2362 posts
I'd say he is going to be just fine. Regardless the point still stands. The Berkley nonsense had exactly the opposite result of its intention.

If it's a culture shock then why do the crime and poverty exist in long established minority populations like aboriginals here and African-Americans in the USA?

I'm sorry if its a culture shock why do non-immigrant demographics have issues? Really?

But good to see you got on the racist boat as quickly as possible.


To suggest every Islamic woman who wears one is doing so out of oppression and shame about their own sexuality is a mistake I reckon.


You're going to have to put some more flesh on the bones of that claim. In what way is it mistaken?

The Islamic law around the hijab comes from an Abrahamic tradition of shame about sexuality generally, and female sexuality especially. A non-muslim feminist has given up all pretense of credibility if they indulge the Iranian Mullahs while taking pot shots at Trump for his misogyny.
04:38pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25703 posts
I'm sorry if its a culture shock why do non-immigrant demographics have issues? Really?
This is an example of one of your sentences that I have real trouble parsing. To me culture shock means being taken out of one bucket and being quickly thrown in another. Indigenous populations have been in western populations for quite a while now so I no longer think culture-shock really applies. I think that the racist and superior attitude of the majority population plays a significant part in the crime and poverty rates of minorities due to the feeling of marginalisation those attitudes can foster.

I reckon the Berkeley nonsense worked perfectly. I had never heard of the guy before it happened. I quickly learned that everything he says can be safely ignored though. Again, it would have been nice if the peaceful protests weren't interrupted by the masked agitators (did it ever come out who exactly they were, who they were affiliated with and who the main person was who organised them?) but they sure did shine a spotlight on what is a rather large festering pile of s***.

It's a mistake to assume every woman who wears a headscarf is doing so out of religious oppression because it is really obviously a mistake. You're completely discounting the ability of people to use their own free will to follow their religion, which sometimes includes wearing a piece of material on your head.
04:56pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25704 posts
No I'm not. In fact I specifically acknowledged Islam's backwards attitudes towards women you dumb f***.
05:09pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2363 posts
To me culture shock means being taken out of one bucket and being quickly thrown in another.


You mean like a recent immigrant might experience?

Indigenous populations have a distinct set of issues, hence obviously culture shock does not apply to them. Which makes offering them as a counter example to recent immigrant crime rates something of a non-sequitur.

And if I may make an observation, the conflation of different groups into the catch all of "minorities" and the dominant culture causes all their woes is about as shallow analysis as you're likely to find. And it governs a great deal of conversation around the immigration debate. It is a near farcical strawman. It also nearly guarantees that specific issues with specific solutions will remain unaddressed.

But I can offer an example in Australia of why culture shock might be the place to look (for immigrants). The initial wave of Vietnamese immigration was met with a significant amount of law enforcement issues. This is a matter of public record.

The Vietnamese community has by and large integrated now in Victoria.

It's a mistake to assume every woman who wears a headscarf is doing so out of religious oppression because it is really obviously a mistake. You're completely discounting the ability of people to use their own free will to follow their religion, which sometimes includes wearing a piece of material on your head.


I'm not, but further I fail to see how religious conviction on the issue is grounds for improvement.

Your argument is as follows so far as I read it.

ME: Islam dictates headwear for women for plainly sexist reasons.
YOU: You're not taking account of all the women who genuinely believe the plainly sexist reasons.
05:16pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25705 posts
The original question I asked is "why do you believe there is higher instances of crime and poverty amongst minority groups?". Not about the recent immigration crime rates. There was no conflation.

But I can understand how you made the mistake so that's okay. I agree, culture-shock is a strong contributing factor to recent immigrant violence. I don't think it's a shallow observation to say that if a large section of the population were a bit more tolerant and patient that the problems would be lessened in these cases also.

What about the women who are either ignorant of the original sexist reasons or the ones who dismiss them and simply wear the scarf to express their religious beliefs? Or that they feel comfortable in it? Or who wear it purely out of tradition or habit? Or any of the other myriad of reasons women may choose to wear the scarf?
05:29pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2364 posts
I don't think it's a shallow observation to say that if a large section of the population were a bit more tolerant and patient that the problems would be lessened in these cases also.


I disagree. There probably is ground to be made in tolerance. However, I notice someone like warren mundine for example (noel pearson sorry), has very little time for that sort of thing.

I think it is naive at best and erring toward patronizing racism at worst to suggest that if we were all a bit more tolerant societies issues will just go away.

Another example from the long established category which cuts against the "we just need a little more tolerance" brigade, is Asian Americans. On any conceivable metric they are ripping it up in the states. It is also impossible to claim they didn't find mind blowing prejudice when they first started arriving en masse.

As it relates to Sweden, it seems beyond question to me they took too many too quickly and are now jumping from policy joke to policy joke to try and catch up. No one is particularly well served by this least of all the refugees themselves.


What about the women who are either ignorant of the original sexist reasons or the ones who dismiss them and simply wear the scarf to express their religious beliefs? Or that they feel comfortable in it? Or who wear it purely out of tradition or habit? Or any of the other myriad of reasons women may choose to wear the scarf?


What about them? seems to me that ignorance of the original reasons has more in common with oppression than freedom.

And the people who dismiss with them but wear it anyway to express their religious beliefs?

Can you explain what you mean there? I don't understand how you can dismiss the doctrine of a religion and use the doctrinal requirements of the religion to express your faith in the religion at the same time.

None of this is relevant to the point of the Swedish female ministry I might add. We can come back to that, I think we are on to something here.
05:43pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2365 posts
Culture shock in the context I'm speaking of Toll.

But dispossession and the wholesale ripping up of their societal institutions probably play a strong role, and this is not something a immigrant has any reasonable expectation of. In fact often immigration happens explicitly to leave a set of societal institutions.
05:58pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25706 posts
I never said it would make them go away. (edit: actually I kind of did. My bad. I might have been a bit hasty in saying they'd disappear) I said it would lessen them. All it takes to lessen this violence and poverty is for people to stop being racist. How hard is it to not be racist? It's a source of great frustration to me. I really don't get it. It just seems so f*****g simple yet it's a problem that has existed for centuries and will sadly probably continue to exist forever. It's why you see me bring it up so much, and why I guess I can be a bit of a c*** to people who are racist (just one person on here). Obviously it only seems simple. The reasons people are racist are many, but put them in the pot and boil it for a while and all that's left is ignorance. Somehow that needs to be overcome.

I'm mentioning them because you're dismissing them completely and seem to be saying that literally every woman who wears the scarf is doing so out of oppression. A girl grows up in a Muslim household. Her mother wears the scarf. She loves her mother, and coupled with her devout faith, feels compelled to wear the scarf. She may have heard of how the original implementation of it was sexist and not give a f***. She may not have heard of it at all. The point is she is doing so out of tradition and religion. That scenario I described would not be uncommon. Whether it's as common as oppression scarves is highly debatable. If you saw the person I described in a social situation and suggested to her that she is wearing the scarf out of oppression you've just faux pas'ed rather majorly and I hope you'd feel at least slightly embarrassed.
05:59pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2366 posts
It just seems so f*****g simple yet it's a problem that has existed for centuries and will sadly probably continue to exist forever.


Yeah but if it is a problem that hasn't been solved in centuries, surely this means that the simply explanation probably isn't right? The pope does little other than call for tolerance.

I am all for the simplest solution, but the solution should as simple as it can, and no simpler if that makes sense.

The point is she is doing so out of tradition and religion.


You are describing archetypal religious oppression fpot surely you can see that? and frankly an utterly bizarre comment for someone like you to make. It is essentially an argument from status quo. And one you simply would not accept in any other context.

But moreover, if the woman then claimed to be a feminist, I would have no hesitation whatsoever in pointing out the obvious contradiction.
06:24pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2367 posts
I mean I'm pretty sure a lot of immigrants coming to Australia a few hundred years back were chasing potential fortunes.


You mean fortunes they were institutionally excluded from?

It is certainly why I left Australia for the first time, and leaving in a house full of immigrants (I was the only Australian) in London, that was the reason they all left as well.

as far as refugees go, that is explicitly, as in the convention states, why they leave, to escape oppressive societal institutions.
06:31pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25707 posts
Well I did say a couple of sentences later that it isn't simple at all and only seems that way.

But if she chooses to wear it out of her own free will and feels comfortable wearing it where is the oppression? If she is aware of the sexist origins of the scarf but doesn't care then how are they relevant? If she is unaware of the sexist origins I guess that could be bad. She might not be too happy when she does find out but if she's then able to stop wearing the scarf and renounce what is the problem? Perhaps it wasn't clear, but in the situation I described not wearing the scarf is an option. Unless you're suggesting that every Muslim household contains sociopaths that will disavow someone for not fully conforming to the Islamic faith.
06:35pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2368 posts
Or is it an expression of wearing what they want to wear without giving a s*** of what you think about their sexuality?
Why do you believe that showing skin equates to sexuality for everyone? Have you met these two women? How do you know if they are ashamed of their sexuality or not? Because of the clothes they choose to wear?


I didn't really read your comment, and to be honest it seems to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of my comment. I want you to go back look at the picture, note the flags, then have a think about your comment.

That's kind of the same thing as saying a women is inviting rape by wearing a mini-skirt...


Oh yes how exactly?
06:37pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25708 posts
You talk about people being brainwashed yet you talk about Trump like he is some sort of business god and he is winning hard and a total baller and my god you're a dumb f***.
06:48pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2369 posts
If she is aware of the sexist origins of the scarf but doesn't care then how are they relevant?


I'm sorry but I am really not following you here at all. the scarf as an expression of faith in Islam exists because of Islamic doctrine. how are they not relevant? It is an explicit statement you either accept them [Doctrinal requirements] or don't care enough to repudiate them, which is implicit acceptance.

I simply fail to understand how you can simultaneously take something which is an expression of faith due to sexist doctrine, use it to express your faith, and dismiss the doctrine which makes it an expression of faith.

that is an utter non-sequitur.
06:51pm 22/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25709 posts
If she has decided to wear the scarf out of comfort and tradition how is it relevant that the original religious doctrine regarding the scarf was sexist in nature? I actually agree with you in regards to someone calling themselves a feminist while wearing one. Then it's bad to ignore the religious doctrine. But just a regular run of the mill person, wearing it because, hey, just feels right to them. They've got every right to ignore it. Same way many people ignore the whole Australia Day/Invasion Day thing. Imagine that, having a big celebration on the day the genocide began. Not a religious thing but certainly in the same ball park. Point I'm trying to make is that history and original intentions are often ignored in favour of adhering to tradition. Not that uncommon across any demographic. Muslim dress seems to attract an undue amount of attention imo.
07:13pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2370 posts
If she has decided to wear the scarf out of comfort and tradition how is it relevant that the original religious doctrine regarding the scarf was sexist in nature?


Is this woman wearing it as an expression of faith?

Because if she is you can not divorce the reasons for it being an expression of faith from wearing it, and still call it an expression of faith.

That is like someone saying I wear a crucifix to express my faith in jesus but I don't believe jesus died on a cross. That makes no sense whatsoever.


Same way many people ignore the whole Australia Day/Invasion Day thing. Imagine that, having a big celebration on the day the genocide began. Not a religious thing but certainly in the same ball park.


I am sympathetic to that view, but I don't think it is a valid analogy. the first fleet arrival did not turn up with the explicit goal of genocide for one. But also no-one makes the claim that celebrating Australia day makes you Australian. Or at least I have never met someone who has.

Just to keep the context in frame again.

I actually agree with you in regards to someone calling themselves a feminist while wearing one.


and for what is worth I'm inclined to agree with you here. and if I you'll recall I was explicitly talking about non-muslims.
Muslim dress seems to attract an undue amount of attention imo.
07:32pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2371 posts
Yes. Yes she can.


How?

Explain to me how an expression of faith in a religion, can remain an expression of faith, while rejecting the reason it is an expression of faith.

It would be like praying and saying nobody is listening. The empty prayer ceases to be an expression of faith in those circumstances.

Or a jew wearing a yamaka while stating actually the yamaka doesn't remind me there is something above me. Then it's just a hat.
07:56pm 22/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38759 posts
Idiots like you are contributing to the problem of Radical Islam in The West because you run around demanding we dilute our Liberal Democracies so we can embrace stupid s*** from 1000 years ago.
Ah, libertarians

What they all really want to say is religion is bats*** crazy, but none of them have the balls to do it - especially in the US - because it would imply that the white Christians that they depend on so heavily to make up their frothy base are too

Boring topic but thought experiments:

- What crazy s*** do Catholic women do totally voluntarily as a demonstration of their faith despite the negative effect on their lives? Is that them being free, or are they slaves too?
- Remember that "sectarian violence" is the biggest killer of Muslims, and it's basically them disagreeing on finer points of theology. There's s***loads of room for interpretation in why people wear scarves. All based on woo, obvy.
08:15pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2372 posts
I did


No you didn't.

You said cultural institutions change over time. Which is a different question.

Well done with the photo you've managed to look but not see. Carry on.

Lets shift to a religion you aren't so intent on defending.

Explain to me how wearing a crucifix, which is an article of faith because it depicts Jesus on the cross, can remain an expression of faith if you reject the idea Jesus died on the cross.

It is not possible to be a Christian and reject that item of faith. Believing Jesus died on the cross is a barrier to entry.

Boring topic but thought experiments:


You sure do like to post on topics you find boring.

In answer to your question, I didn't claim that Muslim women were slaves, I said the doctrines of Islam are oppressive toward them. I don't see the relevance of catholic women engaging in oppressive doctrine.

in answer to your second question, the fact that the doctrine has bifurcated doesn't undermine my point.
08:29pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2373 posts
You have decided that these women are ashamed of the sexuality because of what they wear. You have decided that these women are wearing cloths that cause them harm, that by wearing them they have contributed to the harm you perceive being done to them.


Are you intentionally misreading me?

I have said that the reason the head wear is an article of faith is based in an Abrahamic tradition that women should be ashamed of their sexuality. I have never heard a justification from doctrine beyond modesty for wearing it.

The doctrinal reason for it to be an article of faith is that women should be ashamed of the sexuality. If you don't believe that, wearing it ceases to be expression of faith.

You cannot point to how you disagree with Islamic doctrine to demonstrate how much you believe in it. That makes absolutely no sense.


You have deiced that because they are wearing miniskirts they are contributing to a situation of overtly displaying their sexuality in a way that causes a person of ill repute to take advantage of the miniskirt wearing woman through physical means.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/p__/images/9/98/Scarecrow.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131003194205&amp;path-prefix=protagonist
08:50pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2374 posts
So some serious ignorance of christian theology going on there.

You really didn't explain it.

You are saying that these women believe they should be ashamed of their sexuality


I'm really not.
09:01pm 22/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38760 posts
Heh, Le Pen is such a troll

(sentence crafted for maximum English viewing snickering)
09:59pm 22/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2375 posts
You know that's the reason why they were it right? It's so men don't get horny as they are seen to not be able control themselves when they see a pretty woman. The garb is more about repressing men's sexuality than women's. Men are also instructed to dress appropriately so as to not unduly arouse a woman. Islam actually gives more acknowledgment to women being able to control their urges better, so that men don't have to cover up as much.
gee you sure showed me
10:01pm 22/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38761 posts
I don't see you contentiously bringing up how nuns wear their religious garb and how that is just repressing their sexuality.
plz don't forget the amish

everyone always forgets the amish
10:08pm 22/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38762 posts
I'd love to know how much Brietbarts ad dollars have declined since the Sleeping Giants movement started. I would like to think that they are feeling the pinch and more of them will be on the chopping block soon.
12:09am 23/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38765 posts

Did we cover this?
http://www.smh.com.au/national/what-type-of-aussie-are-you-meet-the-7-new-political-tribes-20170203-gu57b2.html

Warning for trog, media will play automatically.

haha appreciated!! *disables javascript before clicking*

I'm not sure about the penalty rate decreasing; there's a lot of stuff to consider and I'm not sure if it's better or worse overall. People will definitely lose out financially in the short term but it might increase the robustness of the underlying business and provide more opportunities for growth.

Interestingly I got sent a report the other day which had the following graph:

https://trog.qgl.org/up/1702/repo.jpg

This is for the US where penalty rates aren't much of a thing, and the base salary rates are truly woeful - so it's hard to do a direct comparison against Australia. But the gist of the report was that these sectors are growing much more quickly than other sectors because increased automation hasn't yet taken a toll - there's no robot waiters and no easy opportunities for automation.
10:20pm 23/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38767 posts
Furthermore, how do you reconcile the intrinsic exploitation that lies in the capitalist model with the need to be more socially responsible?
I feel like we've mostly nailed that. I'm pretty happy with the status quo, with the tug-of-war between free market extremists and socialist dreamers to continually refine the model and keep people honest from both sides.

The current era of prosperity & stability I think is testament to the fact that the hybrid system of capitalism and socialism that we've developed is pretty excellent. As long as we keep the balance right - a tough job, depending on a vast number of factors. At the moment the obvious big risk is the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few. But the pushback against it is already strong - even amongst some of those few with a lot of the wealth!
10:40pm 23/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2376 posts
(incidentally we didn't evolve any anatomy that lends well to fighting, like claws or armour)


Yes but men do grow physically larger and stronger than women, and have thicker skulls apparently. I can't be bothered looking that last one up, but I read it somewhere. So it isn't quite true that we didn't evolve armour or anatomy that lends to fighting.

Of course the elephant in that room is our evolved ability to create weapons that enhance our anatomy.

There's a pretty interesting dichotomy going on there between competition and co-operation, and I don't think it's a false one


perhaps I have been loose with my wording. I view human competition and co-operation as being part of the same evolutionary compulsion. Hence statements like this
Human beings' first instinct isn't to kill or win


Tend not to be very true. You won't have to go far to find people who experience exactly that instinct, but it almost certainly won't mean they don't also have a powerful capacity for co-operation. In this sense where people plainly have the capacity for both it strikes me as falsely dichotomous to talk about humans first instinct being one or the other.

I didn't really divine the relevance of your video to that discussion viper sorry.
10:42am 24/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2377 posts
Thats right it was Fake News


Come on man, fake news has to be at least applied to news outlets.

Nobody is confusing political stunts with statements of fact. (fingers crossed)
01:45pm 24/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25711 posts
Heard an anecdote about the NYC subway system about how when you get off the voice on the PA is asking everyone to please cooperate with ICE when they detaIn you and ask you questions. It's safer here.
09:12pm 24/02/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25715 posts
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5e8Z6HVMAAI56s.jpg

Pence made the same mistake twice with that flag.

Also Trump won't be attending the correspondents dinner because he is scared of being made fun of. Such a strong person.
02:09pm 27/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38770 posts
I 100% believe that dropping penalty rates will get more people employed. I just don't know what kind of life those people would have, in a basically minimum wage job that they have to do on weekends.

I have mentioned several times my time in the US and being in retail/hospitality businesses and absolutely loving the service of never having to wait because they employ a huge number of extra people. My most striking memory is of the local popular ice cream store, Jeni's, which would have like 10 people working behind all the time the counter. Compare that to my last experience at a Cold Rock or something in BNE where there were like 5 customers in the store, 2 people working and thus a waiting time of 10+ minutes.

FWIW I worked a couple casual jobs where penalty rates were, for me as an employee, a big incentive to work hard so I could get penalty rate shifts. Sometimes to no avail because one of the shift managers tended to give good shifts to their "friends" because they were such good money. But I definitely think my productivity was higher than it would otherwise have been because of the incentive of massive overtime (I seem to recall it being double time and a half on public holidays?!?)
09:37pm 27/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38771 posts
I guess I'm suspicious that the pure metric "number of people employed" is more important than "the number of people on a living wage". Maybe some businesses will lose out as a result of high costs of operation but again, not sure if that is worse than the state of affairs that exist in places like the US where people often work more than 50 hours a week across two rather crappy jobs wondering if this is going to be the week they're hit with a financially crippling medical bill because their employer is not required to pay them health insurance because it's more important to keep their costs low so they can employ more people.
09:56pm 27/02/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2378 posts
So I still haven't really seen an argument as to why Saturday and Sunday should pay a person higher than Monday or Wednesday.


I'd have thought social cohesion would be the answer to that. It is generally good to have most people have the same time off. It allows sports clubs and s*** to exist.
01:42pm 28/02/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38774 posts
translation: its ok for people to be poor and struggling to live, if i dont have to wait for my icecream
well, that wasn't my point at all. It should be noted that businesses that can't service the needs of their customers will lose customers - I walked out of that Cold Rock because I can't be bothered waiting 10 minutes for ice cream.

Doing the maths to figure out which is a better outcome is really tough though.

As I said, I'm not convinced yet one option is better than the other because it's pretty complicated.
02:33am 01/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25717 posts
Sometimes the first one sometimes the second one.
03:10pm 01/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38775 posts
Is it better to have a staffing model and pay system which a business has freely chosen after evaluating all the business risks, or it it better for someone else who is not risking their own capital to decide the business' operating costs?
as with basically everything, somewhere in the middle of those two radical extremes is the right answer, something which has been empirically proven since basically the Industrial Revolution
07:58pm 01/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25720 posts
So just the two funniest Trump f*** ups of the last week that I've picked out of the ocean of Trump f*** ups.

Trump saying that he didn't know that health care could be so complicated

and

Sean Spicer's sting operation to find the leaker where he invaded people's privacy by accessing their personal phones (he looked at work phones too but I guess that is okay). Then when news of that meeting leaked (lol) he said to the interviewer when asked about the contents of his own phone that he thought his privacy was being invaded (lol). These are the guys running the country.

More to come this week!
05:10pm 02/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25721 posts
lol

edit: hey guys, some guy wrote a decent speech for Trump that some people watched and check out this dailymail link. Everything's fine!
06:21pm 02/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25722 posts
hah, you're gone all in on an inevitable failure. When that does happen can you please at least have a funny meltdown? I'm scared you'll be boring and blame it on x.
06:52pm 02/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2379 posts
Why don't more sheeple trust breitbart to bring them their news?

Slightly more credible than the onion. lel.


Jesus 32 percent of people think huffpo is credible. That is scary.
08:17pm 02/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2380 posts
Isis defeated in Iraq is literally the culmination of Obama's entire long-term strategy against IS for which he was, and is, ridiculously derided by Trump and others.


ISIS being defeated in Iraq strikes me as purely coincidental to any long term plan of Obama's. You can make the argument that ISIS are solely born of a lack of any coherent plan on behalf of Obama for Syria.

Syria has been a cluster f*** from start to finish and Obama has to take a significant amount of blame for that.

Trump hoping to strike some kind of deal with Russia over Syria strikes me as naive or foolish or both, but Syria is a signature policy failure of the Obama administration and that has a s*** load to do with why we talk about ISIS at all.
08:39pm 02/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38777 posts
What happened to the ones who supported the tepid failure that is Obama? They reminisce.
heh it's hard to read this and not giggle at your previous rabid support of the Liberals and wonder where that went, and where your allegiance will go next when the Trump allure (whatever the actual f*** it is) wears off!

So Harvey Norman is just going to pocket the penalty rates savings. What a f*****g surprise.

Infi said this would be creating heaps of jobs though.
Well, if Harvey Norman pockets it (not clear they will, IMO) it means Harvey Norman competitors can NOT pocket it and use the money to pay their staff more & provide better service, or provide lower prices and steal more business from HN.

The other side needs to be considered - reducing the cost of doing business might mean more jobs for HN competitors if HN opt to simply see it as a windfall and distribute it to shareholders/executives/do something else dumb with it.
10:20pm 02/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38780 posts
i think once Amazon are settled in Australia, that's the nail in the coffin for HN.
It is the nail in the coffin for a huge number of Australian companies I think. Having lived in Amazon Prime-serviced regions for the last 3 years, it is an amazing service and it completely changes the way you shop (and live).

I saw the rum I like was on sale on the weekend; I ordered two bottles of Sailor Jerry for 30 pounds and they were delivered two hours later (no cost for delivery; included with Prime). I saw we were running out of washing machine pellets on Saturday & happened to look at Amazon Deals; saw a giant pack of pellets was on sale for like 50% off normal retail; ordered Saturday afternoon and it was delivered at like 9am Sunday morning (woke me up, the bastards).

And that is just basic s*** you need to survive (yes I include rum in that list). Basically the only thing I don't buy on Amazon now is [some] clothes where the fit is important. Very very rarely I need something immediately and I'm always frustrated by what a pain in the ass it is to leave the house and go to a store.

They need to nail the delivery cost issue which will be the biggest challenge they have. There are startups working on it (one of them getting sued by AusPost, I believe); but cost of delivery is only going to get cheaper.
10:50pm 02/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38781 posts
pretty much a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario now for the US, right? I don't know f*** all about Syria but I know if the US had boots on the ground there they'd be copping s*** for being there and making the country all kinds of f***ed up.
01:26am 03/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25726 posts
A giant whining manbaby with multiple personality disorders who's so socially retarded he can't even perform a normal handshake is a shining beacon of hope for the USA's future foreign policy endeavours.
04:38pm 03/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38782 posts
if your favourite razor drops in quality, do you keep using it?
well if I've expressed nothing but ideological praise to my razor regardless of how many times it cut my face to ribbons I don't see how I could stop using my razor and still think I was operating in a logically consistent manner. I certainly wouldn't just throw out the old razor and then get on board with another razor that basically has all the worst parts of the previous razor but is a slightly different colour so it seems like the new hotness. Especially if the other razor was more or less totally useless to me because it was located on the other side of the planet.
08:12pm 03/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38785 posts
so you don't think it is possible to support a political party (or individual representative) then move one's support to a new party or representative if one's views change or the representative's performance diminishes? that's very tribal and inflexible.
I think it's perfectly possible and in fact what most of us here were trying to get you to do for years :) but moving your support to Trump I find unfathomably weird. It doesn't seem your views have changed much, if at all - I mean I assume you still vote Liberal; I can't imagine you're voting Labor and I suspect you wouldn't vote Greens even if someone put a gun to your head. So I just find the whole thing curious.

I watched a great little piece on Tucker Carlson about the problems with Obamacare, it is badly broken because it requires every participant to pay for services (e.g. obstetrics) they do not require
I don't know what this means; in a single payer health care system obviously you pay for services you don't require that other people do..? The entire point of socialised medicine is everyone pays for the benefit of society as a whole.

Here's some cool anecdata from my time in the US:

I went to the doctor once to do a dry run of the process so I understood what would happen if I was ever sick (I got a flu shot as well). While I was in there the doctor said "OK, and now we'll do a blood test". I was in full health, not sick at all, so I was surprised - I was worried what it might cost. The doctor immediately put my mind at rest - they'd already figured out from my insurance plan (the first thing I had to give them when I walked in) that a blood test as something they could charge to my insurer.

So they do the blood test even though it was not something I asked for or was in any way connected at all to my reason for being there. They just do it because they can charge the insurer. (By the way, that flu shot? It showed up on my insurance statement as a covered cost - they charged my insurance company $400USD for it. I found out later I could have gone to a local pharmacy and paid like $25.)
09:46pm 03/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38786 posts
well, we obviously are never going to agree purely on ideological grounds and swapping barbs about it, while fun, is probably ultimately pointless. My anecdata is not unique; there are zillions of readily available examples about insurance companies being gouged by doctors, a problem that has nothing to do with regulation and everything to do with naked greed and opportunism.

I think providing healthcare is a basic service that government should do because it makes complete sense to me to try to keep your citizens alive and healthy and productive and happy.

I understand the 'freedom' angle that Americans go for but I think the actual reality is that they are way less free as a result.
11:41pm 03/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2381 posts
With respect Viper I think you are dabbling in alternative facts there. You even quoted my point at me.

More is riding on the battle for Mosul than the recapture of the Islamic State's main stronghold in northern Iraq. Also on the line is the Obama administration's theory that the extremists can be defeated in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere without American ground troops doing the fighting.


Obama has been saying to anyone who will listen there will be no boots on the ground for the last 5 years in respect of Syria. The idea that he wanted to do more but was blocked by an obstructionist congress is an alternate reality. Republicans were more hawkish if anything.

Obstructionism true of Obamacare, but you've got to do more work if you want to convince me Syria is republicans f*****g up an otherwise good plan.

Obama, so far as I can see, had two options in Syria. 1. Do nothing. 2. Iraq style regime change. He did neither.

If he had done nothing at all the outcome almost certainly would have been better than what we have. But he set up the farcical redline, has sent special forces into Syria and armed rebel groups against Assad.

Meanwhile, while fermenting his multi lateral coup, ISIS formed and committed a genocide against the Yazidis.

And ISIS wouldn't have claimed the ground in Iraq if their security forces were up to scratch/ had a solid base of operations in the vacuum left in Syria. Given this happened nearly a decade after the initial invasion, Obama's plan for a united Iraq, such as it was, is as much to blame.

The criticism isn't that Obama did nothing, that would have been better than what was done. It's that he was indecisive in a situation that needed to be left alone or nipped in the bud.

History will not look kindly on his legacy in Syria.
03:47pm 04/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25733 posts
09:36pm 05/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25734 posts
Just for the record, I am waiting to see on the whole Russia thing (but holy moley it will be funny if he was helped along by them because having such a f*** up in office is good for Russia, but at the same time bad) but why would Obama wiretap Trump's office? Spying on other governments is a thing that generates good intel which is useful. Somehow I don't think Obama was really interested in capturing the next grab them by the pussy moment.
10:36pm 05/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38789 posts
If Obama was any kind of Man he would take Trump on at Twitter instead of snaking around in the shadows.
Holy f*** is this what all the people on Twitter actually think? No wonder it's such a bastion of f***wittery

Meanwhile the much more manly Trump makes s*** up and harasses his enemies like a 16yo girl writing in her diary, but doesn't have the stones to turn up to the correspondents' dinner. Talk about a snowflake.
09:11pm 06/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25739 posts
I'm guessing the apologists are explaining that one away as too busy running the country. Imagine how much of a coward you'd have to be to stay away from something like that because you're scared of being made fun of.
09:33pm 06/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38790 posts
I'm guessing the apologists are explaining that one away as too busy running the country
I'm guessing we'll find out in the next few posts how they're explaining it away :D
10:25pm 06/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25740 posts
I guess they will. While you're at it could you please explain the whole Pence uses private emails thing as well thanks.
10:29pm 06/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2382 posts
So the day without women is calling for the "decolonization of Palestine".
So there is a movement in no danger whatsoever of creating meaningful change.

It's difficult not see the election of Trump as being worth the price of admission. Left wing politics is in serious trouble (which is a problem), but watching these continuous meltdowns is thoroughly entertaining.
07:09pm 07/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38791 posts
It seems to be a recurring theme with such protests. Every little group that nominally agrees with the main topic wants their own other special interests also included.

They only end up diluting their message and making it all easier to ignore.
also known as the democratic process
08:16pm 07/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38792 posts
one thing I think we can all agree on is we all want him to go back to what he was doing on the Apprentice
09:05pm 07/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25742 posts
hmmmm we're already passed the point where people will try to explain away the absurdity of the situation and have quickly progressed straight to the lol liberal tears stage on the road to full meltdown.
09:42pm 07/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25743 posts
Yep, and he took the option not to go because he's a precious little boy who's scared people will make fun of him 😂

Just wondering, are we meant to take the word from a pathologically lying administration about the contents of the emails or is there some evidence that's been presented to back their claims?
10:04pm 07/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38793 posts
I actually don't care about the email thing; I didn't care about Hillary's that much and I don't care about Pence's. Email is not a secure mechanism; it should be just assumed if you're using it, the contents are visible to someone else.
10:10pm 07/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25744 posts


oh yeah he is terrified of the fake news MSM
Look at how well doggy trained you are. Repeating your master's words like a good little doggy. It's really obvious he is scared of the media. I was more referring to whoever would be MCing that night. It would almost be too easy to humiliate him. That's what Trump is scared of.

Assuming what you're saying is true about Pence, the problem is that rules and laws don't apply to the current administration. They believe they're above them and the funny part is going to be when that attitude finally catches up with them.
10:46pm 07/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2383 posts
also known as the democratic process


That happened on November 8 last year. This is a bunch of radical left wing f*** heads who have neither a point nor any claim to "democratic" process.

You're in the states often enough, why don't you go to the rally and try and say Trump was on to something with immigration and see how "democratic" they are.

Democracy would be a specific agenda backed up with a broad base. This is the opposite of that, its is a tiny minority of people with a vaguely marxist/anti-capitalist agenda, who will physically attack you if you have the temerity to disagree. I might add, if they support the "decolonization of Palestine" you will be able to scratch the surface and find naked antisemitism, because you always can.

Trump will probably use the presidency to line his pockets, but seeing as a Obama just got a 70MUSD book deal seems you could make the argument about him.

What is happening in these so called women's marches (I note the science march has been polluted by this compete tosh as well, science must be informed by intersectional feminism? please that is essentially stating science must be informed by not science.) and the left wing is borderline actual fascism.

Berkley was outright fascism. and it happened again here.

But the left leaves "democracy" at the door long before they (inevitably now it seems) get violent. There is nothing "democratic" about drowning a speaker out with "hey hey ho ho x y z has got to go".

and before fpot chimes in with misogyny, name the rights Trump has removed for women. Not liking him is not an argument and street based hysterics are not going to hurt him. And again here is my response to this line of reasoning:

hmmmm we're already passed the point where people will try to explain away the absurdity of the situation and have quickly progressed straight to the lol liberal tears stage on the road to full meltdown.


Yep and the democrats couldn't win, and show no signs of turning it around, so how "competent" can they be.

You used to be cool trog.
07:27am 08/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2384 posts
Are you talking about the election where the 'winner' had almost three million less votes than the next candidate?


Are you talking about that metric that has been used to pick a US President 0 times?

Winning New York and LA in a landslide isn't how they do it. Just FYI.
07:30pm 08/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38797 posts

God bernadi is scum.

F*****g dodgy scum.



http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion

I don't know much about Bernadi but that just seems like regular run-of-the-mill politicians behaving like the new aristocracy and acting like rules are for the little people. Does he do other scummy stuff?
09:58pm 08/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38798 posts
jesus f*****g christ does every link in australia now have auto playing video
09:46pm 09/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38799 posts
So I live in central London and the pollution is f*****g off the hook. They've recently announced a 10 pound per day charge on old (pre-2006) driving in the City. Unfortunately doesn't kick in until September.

Thought it was interesting in the face of news that Norway (ahh Norway) now has half of new car sales being electric/hybrid (thanks to massive incentives).

So (probably no surprise) I personally think every first world country should be offering massive massive incentives to switch to electric cars. I have never been anywhere where the pollution was this bad and constantly in your face. I can't wait to move out of the city. I can see why VWs DieselGate was such a big deal now (outside of the usual companies lying perspective).
10:29pm 09/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25747 posts
Hybrids use electricity which is generated by coal power plants.....
Actually I think the combustion motor and KERS produce the electricity in hybrids. If there must be pollution (and there must) it's better to have it dispersed in low population areas rather than concentrated in a city in any case.

Not sure what you're going on about in regards to hydrogen. One of the easiest ways to produce hydrogen is electrolysis, a process which separates the hydrogen in water molecules. Are you saying cars should have a small nuclear plant to power that process? That's an insane idea.
11:59pm 09/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38800 posts
Basically it'd be better for the environment if no one bought new cars and they just maintained their s***** clunckers Cuban style.
Yeh, I dunno, I think the jury is still out on this one. I've read articles that lean both ways (e.g., "The study reveals that fully 75 percent of a car's lifetime carbon emissions stem from the fuel it burns, not its production." vs "The upshot is that – despite common claims to contrary – the embodied emissions of a car typically rival the exhaust pipe emissions over its entire lifetime."

fkn scientists, sort your s*** out
Hybrids use electricity which is generated by coal power plants..... London may improve but it's just outsourcing the pollution elsewhere. More solar for sunny England methinks.
Well some electricity is coal; but there's a new thing in the UK where we're going to steal some sweet sweet nuclear electricity from the French. So it should be cleaner. Also most stats I've seen indicate that it's significantly more efficient burning coal vs gas in an ICE.

Basically it's f*****g hard to crunch then numbers on all these things. Need to factor in healthcare costs in places with s***** pollution like London as well which are considered dramatically higher from increased incidence of respiratory problems.
02:34am 10/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25749 posts

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/09/epa-scott-pruitt-carbon-dioxide-global-warming-climate-change

Scott Pruitt, Donald Trump’s head of the US Environmental Protection Agency, has dismissed a basic scientific understanding of climate change by denying that carbon dioxide emissions are a primary cause of global warming.


Literally saying that water isn't wet.

edit: also Bill Leak is dead.
12:10pm 10/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25750 posts
Maybe they need to release a car with a nuclear reactor as a fuel tank (lol)
07:06pm 10/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25751 posts
A nuclear reactor works by nuclear material boiling water which drives a turbine producing electricity. It needs to be cooled, the radioactive material needs to be shielded. It very well may be impossible to practically fit all of that material into something the size of a car.

But that's not the point. A car accident occurs, and you've got exposed radioactive cores to deal with. The demand for uranium skyrockets (a finite resource btw so why even bother). All of a sudden you need to mine, store, transport and dispose of spent uranium in amounts orders of magnitude greater than before. As the Grand Wizard says, it can also be used for bad things so there's that to consider. It is a completely dumb and impractical idea especially when electric cars have come so far in the last decade. You're pretty much completely scientifically illiterate aren't you infi?
07:46pm 10/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25752 posts
You were not aware of those limitations because if you were you wouldn't have suggested something so childishly ridiculous.
08:17pm 10/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25753 posts
So Flynn was/is literally a foreign agent. All part of making American Great Again I suppose.
12:12am 11/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2385 posts
Flynn is a worry. Erdogan is a maniac.

I think it is important to note that it all happened as private citizen.

Still it all forms part of a strategy when you think about it. Flynn is pretty strong on Islamist disruption in the middle east being the largest security threat to the US in the world today. Turkey and Russia have made their feeling on the subject pretty clear for a while now, so it makes sense they'd have short term alignment of interests with the US.

What ever the case may be its a much less sexy story then hilter rising.

As most conservatives tend to be.. History won't look kindly upon them when it comes to climate change.

Oh yes. Explain the science behind why a nuclear powered car is impractical.

I'm sure you've done the calculations and have a good scientific understanding of why it might be impractical.
09:56am 11/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25755 posts
Explaining why a nuclear powered car is impractical is as easy as explaining why a nuclear powered cabbage is impractical. It requires the same amount of scientific knowledge as you need mathematical knowledge to know the multiplication tables.

This is just my opinion, and I am more than willing to abandon it if something convincing is posted, but I reckon the Trump administration is a far greater threat to USA's safety and security than the middle-east is. ISIS can pull off the occasional attack and kill scores of people, but Trump is in there, f*****g up new things in unfixable ways more and more every day. It's the worst thing to happen to the western world since I don't even know what. What's worse, he has a legion of followers who not only don't know what's going on, but who actually think what he is doing is good. That's the ingredient that makes the current situation so dangerous.
03:27pm 11/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2386 posts
Explaining why a nuclear powered car is impractical is as easy as explaining why a nuclear powered cabbage is impractical. It requires the same amount of scientific knowledge as you need mathematical knowledge to know the multiplication tables.


What if it isn't impractical? I can see a number of obvious issues, but they may well all have solutions. Seems to me that you would need rather involved scientific knowledge (which I don't have and don't claim to, but then I'm not having a go at people's scientific knowledge) to make any definitive claim, knowledge Vash plainly doesn't have but will run his mouth about how conservatives know nothing about science.


This is just my opinion, and I am more than willing to abandon it if something convincing is posted, but I reckon the Trump administration is a far greater threat to USA's safety and security than the middle-east is. ISIS can pull off the occasional attack and kill scores of people, but Trump is in there, f*****g up new things in unfixable ways more and more every day. It's the worst thing to happen to the western world since I don't even know what. What's worse, he has a legion of followers who not only don't know what's going on, but who actually think what he is doing is good. That's the ingredient that makes the current situation so dangerous.


I doubt trump is doing anything that can't be undone later (especially if he follows Obama's lead on governance by EO). The two key concerns I see with his presidency is financial conflicts of interest, leading to inappropriate dealing, probably to line his pockets. The second is his penchant for policy on the run. Nothing is planned or executed well. These two things disqualify him in my opinion, and if exploited properly will probably be his downfall. However, the chicken little hysterics that have been going on since the election have done nothing but empower him in my estimation.

And in so far as he may be doing good, I think his crassness is valuable. The range of acceptable speech in a variety of policy areas has been far too narrow for far too long. But Immigration to my mind is an archetypal example. in the left wing of politics, the view that immigration is an unambiguous force for good is so blindly entrenched that anyone who second guesses it is branded a racist. Immigration clearly is a good thing but it the benefits it brings are on balance goods, not outright goods with no downside.

Having someone who doesn't give a f*** if you call him racist is valuable when the range of permissible opinion has narrowed that far. Doesn't mean he is right or that I agree with him particularly, but it does mean that the conversation is getting broadened out to encompass s*** that just does not get discussed. But moreover, I think it has helped to lay naked the explicitly authoritarian nature of political correctness. I might also add it has helped out little would be apparatchiks on this forum. For example, if you've ever used the term "muh free speech" seriously, you're a failure of a human being, and your right to talk about "tolerance" has been forever undermined. Its actually a beautiful phrase, the person using it is almost invariably trying to display their smug moral and intellectual superiority by mocking stupid people insisting on their fundamental human rights. It's like an irony singularity. The importance of free speech (including and arguably especially offensive speech) to a liberal democracy is close to impossible to overstate.

As for instability in the middle east, while it is true ISIS have a limited reach into western europe and beyond, the middle eastern refugee crisis is forcing tectonic shifts in European politics, and ISIS are a major contributor to that crisis. Flynn, with some justification, views these issues as having far reaching consequences for US security beyond mere terrorism (for example what happens in a post EU world, seems to be a very real strategic concern). He also views Iran as the main agitator in the region.

As such he is willing to entertain short term cooperation with actors such as Russia and Turkey to keep Iran's influence in check.

Whether that view of the middle east is correct, I don't have enough knowledge to say, but it doesn't read as implausible to me.
12:17pm 13/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38801 posts
oh man so much has happened in the last few days. I was on holiday in Scotland.

- "Electricity demand in 2035 is projected to increase by 83% from 2011 levels" - also I hear the iPhone released in this year is going to be amazing

The Musk thing sounds good on the surface (it's techno-nerd cool) but remember it basically means we're potentially importing our power from the US. I don't know what the financial arrangements will look like but if that is the case it is a bad idea.
07:32pm 13/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38802 posts
Well I don't know if it's just the infrastructure. The way SolarCity works (I thought anyway) was they install the equipment at their cost and you buy electricity from them. Maybe that is not what is being proposed for SA; afaik no details are available. But I am pretty sure that is what Musk would want to do if he could pick anything. Selling a bunch of batteries would be a huge deal for them so that would be nice but ultimately let's not forget it's still exporting a s***tonne of money offshore so the economics need to be looked at kinda carefully if it's taxpayer dollars getting spent here.

I did see an interview with Internode's Simon Hackett who also has a battery company startup but I can't find it now & don't know what he said - anyone seen that?

(I actually though about starting a solar power company to do this in Australia & even went so far to price it but at the time, like 8 years ago, the cost of cells & installation was prohibitive, so I never got past the paper-napkin phase)
08:18pm 13/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38803 posts
Have we talked about Coopersgate yet?!?!
09:36pm 13/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25758 posts
https://image.ibb.co/gUTubF/steve_king_white_supremicist.png
cloud image hosting


If this was posted on some sort of satirical 'What if the Nazis had Twitter?' twitter account it would fit perfectly. Unfortunately it was posted by Steve King, who is a member of the United States House of Representatives. With this comment he is revealing himself as a literal white supremacist.
07:58pm 14/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38804 posts
s*** heating up in Scotland

I was just there for the weekend & was reminded by what a great job they have done with the EU; everywhere you go there are signs talking about joint projects between Scotland & EU. Also saw a huge "independence now" graffiti on the way from the airport :)
08:31pm 14/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38805 posts
could you? last I checked property prices in BNE weren't exactly super low
09:14pm 14/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2387 posts
This is the week spot in the strategy.

(no troops on ground, locals must drive the political solution)


Congress were right not to back that plan. There has been zero evidence of a rainbow collation coming out of anything in the Arab spring. Assad was able to split the rebels politically while barrel bombing them. Imagine what the Saudis and Iranians would have done.

Hence my comment he had to either do Iraq all over again (and considering one of his major policy achievements was getting the US "out" of Iraq he was never going to sign on for that) or do nothing at all.

Pursuing the third half measure option was always going to be highly risky and in the event it was disastrous.

So I don't think republican criticism of him not doing enough is necessarily that hypocritical, he has steadfastly refused to entertain doing what almost certainly needed to be done (if you wanted to be involved at all).

but seeing as we agree, I'm happy to leave it at that.
07:30pm 15/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38807 posts
Something needs to be done to stamp out property investment, because it's f*****g over the next generation like you wouldn't believe.
I want to know what the models look like if interest rates go back to 2008 levels
10:58pm 15/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25766 posts
If someone were to post every Trump fail in this thread they'd probably get banned for spamming.
02:42pm 19/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25767 posts
Trump and North Korea China is quite possible the end of human civilization.
Fixed.

Bannon said he has no doubt the USA will be at war with China within the next decade. Imagine that, a war with China, Trump who is more or less an older version of King Joffrey in charge. The USA suffer a devastating loss. Where will we be in 30 years time?
08:18pm 19/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38810 posts
What's Fail about that?
the only thing fail about that is, as usual, free market libertarians who constantly whine about liberal snowflakes getting upset at every little thing demonstrating once again that they believe in a set of rules for them and one for everyone else

have a laugh and get over it, amirite?
09:29pm 20/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38813 posts
07:45pm 21/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2388 posts
the "Goldwater rule" forbids us from diagnosing public figures we’ve never evaluated in person


Tell us more about the reasons for this rule before going on toll please.
09:58pm 21/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38826 posts
John Quiggin resigns from Climate Change Authority:
My immediate reason for doing so is the government’s failure to respond, as legally required, to the Third Report of the Special Review undertaken by the Authority at the government’s request. The government has already indicated that it will reject the key recommendations of the review, particularly the introduction of an emissions intensity scheme for the electricity industry.
09:33pm 23/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2390 posts
Why is 18C such a pressing item on the gov's agenda?


Yes enabling vicious race hate such as "fighting segregation with segregation".

F*** off commie.
08:30am 24/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2391 posts
PS. You're the one that supports Israel which is pretty much running apartheid.


oh yes. Flesh that thought out d*******. how are they running "apartheid". not pretty much apartheid, not apartheid like. It what respect are people, based on the colour of their skin excluded in Israel.

Actual laws you need to talk about you ignorant propaganda spewing jackass.

it was thrown out of court.


twice. two times. after 14 months of the AHRC f*****g it up. so by "enabling race hate" that's what you mean.
you're the one who said "muh free speech".

you're political opinions are null and void, and you are worth but nothing but ridicule f*** stick.

or in short, f*** off commie.
04:43pm 24/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2392 posts
Because they don't align with yours


No because your opinions are antithetical to anyone having opinions other than yours.

didn't think you'd be able to back up apartheid claims.

I can back hamas being an explicitly genocidal organization though.

F*** off commie.
05:16pm 24/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25775 posts
Hey infi mind taking a break from the echo chamber and telling us how much Trump has been winning lately? I kind of miss hearing about it.
08:49am 25/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2394 posts
If you took Israel are "pretty much" running apartheid from that article commie, frankly you must be a little dim.

telling people to f*** off for expressing an opinion in a public forum


You're the one posting banal naked misrepresentations of the actual debate. You earned your scorn f***face.
05:44pm 25/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25778 posts
Trump is a con man:



This is a total pro-click.
12:24pm 26/03/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25782 posts


It's a never ending rabbit hole of irony and absurdity.

Hey infi you're still being a bit quiet mate. How come you're not telling us how much mein Trump is winning?
05:06pm 28/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2396 posts
Seems like a win to me.

published in the SMH of all places.
06:46pm 28/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2397 posts
Good. Noone should waste any time on that oxygen thief.
Faceman, no one cares what your dad has to say.


I hope you guys are being safe. I hear it can be hard for socialists to do that.
07:37pm 28/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2398 posts
re: Venezuela and the usual Socialism & Communism ignorance.

- Private ownership of the means of production
- State ownership of the means of production
- Private property rights
- Continuation of the commodity form
- Class-based society
- Developmentalist economic paradigm
- Zero pretense of moving beyond developmentalist paradigm
- Was capitalism with a welfare net and an authoritarian leader
- Socialists supporting Chavez were dolts
- Plenty of socialists opposed Chavez

In other words, not Socialism.

Capitalism is going extremely well though, you should feel totally safe in it's hands.
Oh and that little climate change thing we don't need to be too concerned about, humanity might just end, that's all.



ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Don't you catch anything now.
09:03pm 28/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38828 posts
Jesus he seems like a f***wit. Hopefully Australia makes a stand at these kind of stupid shock-jock things before it's too late and our media is totally overrun with f***wits that think saying these kinds of things is bold and exciting and useful and challenging and free speech, instead of realising it's actually just boring click-bait s*** of the lowest quality.

Even Glenn Beck realised he was a massive f***wit and has repented!
09:37pm 29/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2399 posts
Latham is and always has been a tool but it's interesting your talk about challenging and free speech to be contrasted with being click-bait.

Turns out the spike in anti-antisemitism isn't being caused by trump normalising anything but rather CNN NYT and WOPO and all the rest having a s*** fit about trump normalising. woops.

Looking forward to these outlets jizzing into a print out of the first amendment, now their coverage has caused hate crimes.
11:52am 30/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38833 posts
Random comedy from twitter
08:49pm 30/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2400 posts
Yeah apparently the education system is in need of work.

That would be amusing if communism has ever been tried ;)


Read any marx yet vash?
08:39am 31/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1756 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
Send Private Message
08:20pm 31/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38835 posts
^ I thought it was because we now compete in a global economy where someone in an Asian country can do your job for a quarter of your wage.

Next you will be competing against a robot who can do it for a tenth.
^^ why unions won't help much in the upcoming robocapocalypse!@#
08:24pm 31/03/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2402 posts
allow me to rephrase.

The senator has appears to have confused a meaningful policy statement with a bunch of left wing epitaphs attributed to a combination of jd rockefeller, andrew carnegie and the monopoly guy. The 1850's called they'd like their robber barrons back.


Yet because of some morons at the OZ and the IPA this 18C legislation is somehow occupying Canberra's time.


this isn't an arguments a******. It is, as per usual, an obscene strawman. It could be chewing up time because it is a matter of some importance. But the guy who says it is to enable race hate, and backed that up with an anti Jewish conspiracy theory literally started by white supremacists doesn't think its important.

So seeing as we are substituting offensively stupid comments for "opinion" I thought I would respond in an equally, or slightly better thought out manner and tone.
10:51pm 31/03/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38836 posts
Business make people think they're lucky for getting CPI raises.
Yeh, and unions always make people think they're lucky getting paid way more than market rates for relatively unskilled labour. The problem I've always had with unions is that ultimately they rely on it being /slightly/ easier for companies to keep the union employees than ditch everyone and re-hire from scratch. They are not at all resilient - except in the short term - when faced with automation. If you are dependent on a union to retain your employment in a job that is even remotely likely to be automated, you are only postponing the inevitable.

Regulation is way more important - in fact if I was a die hard socialist on the losing side like you are, I'd be completely ignoring unions and focusing entirely on regulatory solutions. edit: it's weird that you're not, isn't it? A true socialist economy wouldn't even need unions. Unions are a symptom of capitalism, surely/
06:33am 01/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2403 posts
muh free speech.


There it is. such an enjoyable phrase. and it loves communism to. And has the down right cheek to talk about rights.

what is good about 18C? the fact it didn't prevent pauline hanson becoming significant twice? the fact it lets vexatious litigants tie people up in years long investigation for benign commentary? its list of successes objectively render it a failed law.

freedom of speech is the right literally all other rights depend on. Abolitionists to the civil rights activists campaigned specifically to see it guaranteed. the fact morons like yourself now consider it not important seems to me to point to a catastrophic failure in civics education.

This is why it's important to know why past labels of Socialism are false, since no worker had control of production. Chomsky points this out, America was more Socialist than the USSR because at least people in America were able to own a part of the means of production (starting a small business for example)


Holy s*** it is a wonder you're able to use a computer. F*** me you are diabolically dumb.
08:41am 01/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2404 posts
It acts as a disincentive for minorities to be racially vilified. Freedom of speech is not endangered, that's just dumb fluff from the right. If it actually were, i'd be the first to head off to protests, as well as many others on the left.

No it doesn't ,yes it is and no you wouldn't.

The word vilify is not in the legislation, the words offend or insult are though. So the idea that the issue is people are being prevented from vilification and that this is wrong, is in keeping with you being a diabolically dumb mutherf*****.

threatening to kill

come on. aside from that being assault meaning there doesn't need to be a second law to cover it, that is nearly as dumb as being able to own capital is more socialist than the USSR.

pointing to well established exceptions and saying oh look there are exceptions so its ok to make more, is the idiot child like reasoning I've come to expect from you.

09:13am 01/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38838 posts
This is why it's important to know why past labels of Socialism are false, since no worker had control of production. Chomsky points this out, America was more Socialist than the USSR because at least people in America were able to own a part of the means of production (starting a small business for example)
This will be my last attempt to explain this and then I'm going to stop talking about socialism because it's getting a bit boring.

What you're describing as socialism and what I understand to the the "pure" textbook version is not remotely workable, in my opinion, until we have automation for everything. I personally think this will probably require "strong AI" - i.e., technology systems that are so flexible and capable they might as well be human. I don't know if we'll ever get to that point; many experts don't think we'll get there.

In the meantime though, we can create a lot of robots that can do a wide number of tasks that were previously only able to be done by humans. I like using truck driving as an example in these cases because I think it's a really interesting example - self-driving cars seem like they are about to be cracked and when that happens, something like 3m truck drivers in the US alone could be out of work extremely quickly. [I refer to the US here only because I know the number off top of head, but my comments follow for Australia.]

If those 3m drivers are put out of work tomorrow, I believe the US government should provide some support for them while they are unemployed and looking for a new job. It should also provide them with education so they can re-skill.

The important thing though is that I do not think it is a harbinger of the apocalypse that even that many people are made redundant by technology - because capitalism means the markets will evolve and adapt to these new people in the workforce and the massively decreased cost of shipping that has resulted. The markets allow dynamism to happen and I have lots of confidence in the innovation and ability of humans to fill these gaps.

Capitalism and the [regulated and well-taxed] free market ensures that, while there is a cost of production that needs to be born by the private sector that varies massively depending on the human capital required, resources will be allocated in the most efficient way.

The only scary thing is how fast the automation consumes different job types. To get sci-fi for a second here (which is the only frame of reference that really exists for this conversation) there are those that believe in the concept of a "singularity", in which it basically happens overnight. I think this is unrealistic. I think what is likely to happen is a slow improvement of automation over many decades during which certain types of jobs become obsolete.

During this time I feel it is very important for governments to provide support for people displaced by automation and education. I think governments (and citizens) should be thinking about the potential impact of mass automation on a broader scale as well. Universal Basic Income is one such mechanism I think it's a good idea to start tinkering with (I know many see it as a crutch for the lazy but I see it not only as inevitable but also what we should be aiming for as a civilisation.)

But in the meantime the market is a critical component of our society to effectively deal with the supply and demand issues that are left over after automation takes over a sector. Because for a long long time to come they will still account for the majority of human production. So I remain a [regulated, taxed] free market capitalist, although probably with much much stronger "socialist" leanings that others.
07:19pm 01/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38839 posts
I fear with the trend of Trump though, it will be the former.
This is the last thing I worry about; if any nation is going to rise up against their government if they slip too far into aristocracy it will be the US. What else are all those guns for. They'll finally have a chance to use them for their stated constitutional purpose instead of shooting each other accidentally.
08:46pm 01/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2405 posts
Lol seriously? Vilify is the same as insult & offend.


Just wow. Guess we can add "the dictionary" to the list of things you can't do.


Nah not dumb. Unless you think Chomsky is dumb, in which case you'd be very wrong.


Yeah Dumb. mind bendingly dumb. the ability to own capital is the key feature of capitalism and the literal antithesis of marxist socialism (you *really* need to stop talking about s*** you know plainly nothing about). Chomsky is dumb, but I doubt he is dumb enough to have said that. You're in a league all of your own there. to make it clear, it is not possible to become more socialist by making capital easier to own. It'll raise living standards more than any socialist society ever has or ever will, but you CANNOT become socialist by doing it.

So what is that, a strawman, a no true scotsman and an appeal to authority in a single sentence *edit* probably a bad analogy too, its like a fallacy kaleidoscope*edit*. Amazing. its the no true strawthority fallacy. courtesy of Vash.

Quick appeal to another authority who you don't understand.
08:19am 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2406 posts
amazing.

the fundamental tenant of socialism is that the "means of production" should not be owned, but controlled democratically. ownership is fundamentally incompatible with that.

You could not own any business in the Soviet Union.


Hence by definition this makes the soviet union more socialist.

but carry on making a fool of yourself.

Just try reading a little bit of marx. because it is literally impossible to misunderstand socialism more profoundly than you are right now.

If you vilify someone racially, you'll can be prosecuted under 18c, By the way.


Good to see you like your herrings red.
11:41am 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2407 posts
so workers aren't private individuals?

It truly is amazing to peer into the depths of how badly one persons capacity for logic can be broken.
11:58am 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2408 posts
you do know apple has literally thousands of owners right?

as does jp morgan chase and goldman sachs?

Many of the owners will be average people. So the socialist dream has been achieved. Oh good I was worried I didn't understand.

You are currently displaying slightly less intelligence than a dog who is chasing a ball I pretended to throw.
12:27pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2409 posts
Yup. Your point? Are most of them the workers in those companies?


Yes. steve jobs owned the controlling stake of apple which he worked for his entire life.

who knew he achieved socialist paradise.

I could go look up the major share holders of the banks, but the banks all have employee share programs and management take shares as part of their salary deal. board of directors of goldman sachs/heroes of socialism, by your boneheaded definition.

Since you can't seem to understand simple concepts


Um yeah your the socialist who thinks capitalism is socialism. it really is impossible for you to be misunderstanding socialism on a more profound level.
12:38pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2410 posts
dude if steve jobs had a majority share holding in apple and worked in the business then by definition the majority of shareholders are workers in the business. It isn't difficult.

Chomsky is a linguist. but carry on.
12:49pm 02/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38840 posts
I got a +5 for this comment of mine on the subject of UBI on Slashdot; somewhat related.
07:12pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2412 posts
can I say f*** off commie with out being nuked?

the guy who says you can only say what he says is ok, says someone other than himself is the most serious threat to FOS.

dude sesame street can't make videos simple enough for you digest. you are an utter f*****g moron.

steve jobs, in virtue of his majority shareholding in apple, was a socialist, because he worked in the company.

what is left to say except f*** off commie trog? what is left? seriously if the rules you personally wrote for this forum have any meaning whatsoever you should nuke every single one of vash's posts. he is either a troll or so ignorant it makes no difference.
07:18pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2413 posts
well there is another utterly incoherent post.

Love that the book burner runs to nazis.
07:37pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2414 posts
suck some some d*** you sickening sycophant.
07:44pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2415 posts
well actually

Don't be racist, a bigot, a homophobe, or a communist


You serve as sociological example of how badly indoctrination can effect simple minds. A cautionary tale if you will.
07:49pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2416 posts
it is enjoyable that your icon is a dude being punched in the face.

It's funny because going by that, people must think that being a racist, a bigot, or a homophobe identifies with communism.


no it just means don't be any of those things. but plain english was never your strong suit darling.

tell me more about how owning 700 billion dollars is a socialist act.
08:01pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2417 posts
Yep America by aggressively and openly and constitutionally not embracing socialism is more socialist than the opposite of that.

I'm not your mate. I am concerned for your well-being.

still no citation to something chomsky wrote. the linguist who has never held an academic political science position. that guy who knows more about marxism than marx.
08:38pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2418 posts
by Mental gymnastics you mean pointing out that workers owning businesses making the US more socialist than the USSR is dumb because that plainly includes the board of goldman sachs as [evidence the US was] more socialist than the USSR. A state founded on the principles of das kapital. I'm "twisting" your words by quoting them verbatim.

you have still provided no evidence Chomsky said what you claim. But even if you did it would mean an award wining linguist is wrong about the nature of socialism. Chomsky has been singing the same tune since the 60s. The US is an aggressive imperialist state, by any reasonable definition of imperialist the US is not an empire. He is wrong.

Yes one of is doing mental gymnastics. Lets see if you can stick the landing you insufferable moron.
10:44am 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2419 posts
urgh the final words in that video.

"The idea that you can be paid to build something and not own it is an attack on human dignity."

Asking a builder to build my house for money is an attack on his human dignity. I just thought I was asking him to sell his services to me, but actually by failing to assign title to him at the end I was really saying he was less than human. Who knew right?
11:22am 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2420 posts
Chomsky said it though raven. Chomsky.

it is literally impossible he got it wrong. he is a "never worked at a university in this capacity" political scientist.

Its science.

you're wrong. And moreover the fact you think you have (you haven't because its science) detected a fault in his reasoning is the propaganda making you do mental gymnastics.
01:42pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2421 posts
Yeah its total bulls***.
03:30pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2422 posts
Housing in the USSR was not owned by anyone you dolt.

They didn't believe in property.

It really is an all new level of insanity you bring to this thread.

Chomsky is flat out wrong.
04:39pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2423 posts
Chomsky says it not "intellectuals".

you are not a misunderstood genius. You are a powerfully ill-informed moron.
04:45pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2424 posts
haha. Funny really.

you like to listen to people who say paying someone to work is an attack on their human dignity. pointing out that this is bats*** insane makes me "far-right". you're a crazy person.

I think I've changed my mind, your icon isn't you getting punched in the face. Its you smashing your face against a glove attached to the wall.
04:53pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2425 posts
oh quick refer to a paragraph from a reddit thread.

Gee the argument is over.

You sure showed me. Moron.

Also, my avatar is a photo of Tony Abbott being punched


No its you bashing your own face against a stationary fist.
05:02pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2426 posts
er because stephen hawking didn't refute capitalism in 100 words on reddit where the explicit topic is what happens in a world were human labour is entirely unnecessary.

Dumby. There is a reason the appeal to authority is a rhetorical fallacy.
05:24pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2427 posts
Yeah ok drama queen.
05:37pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25784 posts
It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth. What makes you think we're not next? All the pieces are in play for it to happen, and with Trump elected, white just made its first move.
05:42pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2428 posts
It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth.


What does that even mean fpot?

What has happened here is Vash has been shown to have radically misunderstood what he was talking about *again* and is now engaging in his usual rhetorical technique of he just cares about the planet.

The other gem he loves is citing scientists as authorities on political issues, when it is either inappropriate or simply does not do the mental labour he needs it to.

The world is a dystopian nightmare because robots have made human labour a thing of the past for exactly zero people.
05:48pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2429 posts
have robots made human labour a thing of the past? its a factual statement numb nuts.
05:53pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25785 posts
I don't really wish to partake in the robot discussion. All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it, and the notion that someone is a drama queen for suggesting we're next is silly because in reality it is more or less inevitable. At this stage all we can do is delay it and hopefully make it less of a dystopian nightmare.
05:56pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2430 posts
Is there still a need for human labour?

because if so, those people have not lost their job because human labour is now totally unnecessary. Which means hawking's comment has been decontextualized.

you are also now fellating the Luddite fallacy.
05:58pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2431 posts
All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it,


What does this even mean fpot? specifically how is it a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the human race. That seems to me to be a very radical statement.

Well in that case, Hawking is also fellating the Luddite fallacy. It seems to be an easily disprovable fallacy though, considering how much technology is capable of.


No he isn't, he is specifically talking about a hypothetical future situation which you are now treating as an inevitability which is far from the case.

get on your bike disproving the luddite fallacy then dumby. if its so easy. Let me give you a hint. Saying "technology is capable of so much" doesn't do it.
06:16pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2432 posts
so you can't then vash.

well colour me surprised.
06:22pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2433 posts
Well now wait on.

People live in Australia in poverty. does that mean Australia is a "dystopian nightmare"? cause I think rather plainly it isn't.

Poverty is awful, but the idea Australia is headed to a sub-Saharan standard of living is a little over the top you'd surely agree.
09:17pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25786 posts
I guess there's differences between living in poverty in Australia and living in poverty in the third world. If you're homeless or poor in Australia and walk into a hospital dying or gravely ill you'll be treated. If you're assaulted and you walk into a police station it will be investigated. Those two things, among others, wouldn't be available to many people living in poverty in the third world where medical care is not as available and governments and the police are extremely corrupt.

When you narrow it down some it no longer becomes the majority but rather a significant percentage that makes up at least hundreds of millions of people. End-game capitalism, which is surely in the same sort of time frame as the widespread use robotic automation, will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.
09:33pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2434 posts
Thats because you're dumb vash and think statements like paying people to work is an attack on their human dignity isn't self discrediting.

will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.


Ok so let me see if I follow you.

every technological advance in the history of the world has been a net benefit for the poor, so odds on for advance robotics are we will all have even more comfortable lives. Captialism just raised 1 billion people in china and south east asia over the last 20 years out of extreme poverty.

but because trump got elected there is a real risk that within the next 4 to 8 years, wide spread cannibalism due to extreme poverty will become a reality in Australia?

you don't have to call that being a drama queen. but its not inaccurate.
07:04am 04/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25787 posts
You have a real problem with taking things that aren't meant to be taken literally, literally. It's borne from you being really pedantic, which is okay, except your own posts are usually full of the same exaggerations and hyperbole others use and that you delight on calling them out on. Which would also be okay, if it was being used ironically, which it isn't.

It makes you really insufferable to discuss things with. You may have noticed on here, and dare I say real life, that people sometimes simply ignore what you say or just give it a cautionary nod. I am pretty sure you realise why, but just be careful never to think it's because what you're saying is especially profound and that people are shy to reply or anything like that.

But hey, I kind of like you, so I'll say no, widespread cannibalism isn't a real possibility in the next four to eight years (you literally just imagined those numbers in your own head btw) and that I was simply saying that when society reaches its end game and resources are scarce and everyone hates refugees and different coloured people we're more f***ed than we're going to be then if we actually took steps to unf*** ourselves, and that it may be too late to unf*** ourselves and now that Trump is elected we're going to lose four maybe eight years of time that could be spent preparing and instead dig the hole a little deeper.
03:10pm 04/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2437 posts
suit their argument,
that's unfair paveway. ;)



Let me rephrase fpot

four to eight years being the constitutionally enshrined terms trump can possibly serve, you believe he will set in motion, a series of events that will make widespread poverty in australia (as understood in places much poorer that australia) or insert the meaning of "dystopian nightmare" here.

Is that a fair assessment? because if you mean in 200 years Australia will be f***ed I can assure you are wasting your time thinking about it. You are probably wasting your time thinking about if you mean 50 years in the future. needless to say I consider the moniker drama queen is appropriate.

Like you too.
07:11pm 04/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2439 posts
But from my view every post of PP's is to appear intellectual but with no substance behind it and plenty of flustering.


Practically guarantees I have a god level intellect Vash.
09:42pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38846 posts
knit pick
nitpick :D
11:07pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38847 posts
This article randomly popped up on Twitter & I thought it was interesting (& funny; the rest of the blog is pretty entertaining too): The 20th Century, Now in Reruns:
If America had an intelligent upper class, they would have looked at all this and thought: Holy crap we're lucky we got out of the 20th Century alive. We must at all costs avoid making those mistakes again.

Instead, the actual American upper class—with no more Harrimans with a living memory of the Depression and World War II—looked at it and thought: Let's make EVERY SINGLE MISTAKE AGAIN.

That's what's happening right now. Rather than understanding that the problem of the 20th Century was the refusal of capitalism to compromise with human beings, they think the problem of the 20th Century was the few compromises capitalism did make. In fact, even the European upper classes seem to have now forgotten what their grandparents learned via the most direct experience possible.

So they're getting rid of the compromises as quickly as they can. Their goal is apparently to rewind the clock to 1900, add resource wars and incipient environmental catastrophe, and see if history turns out differently this time.
It has something for everyone in it, it s**** on communism AND capitalism!

edit: writer is a former Daily Show writer I believe.
11:14pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38848 posts
Wait. Was it a pork sausage?! Is he a secrat mulim like Obama?!
11:56pm 04/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2440 posts
Pretty much disproven all his crap on Socialism & Communism, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society so i don't expect people to know anything about it


Naw bless.

07:52am 05/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38850 posts
I thought it was insulting to Australians to not eat a sausage sanger/sizzle when it was offered.
well I have some good news for you: it's not
06:05pm 05/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38854 posts
More good news for Australia (& the rest of the world): conferences jumping ship from the US and moving overseas. This has come up a few times recently about some big name conferences relocating to Canada.

With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.
06:35pm 05/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38859 posts
The absolute best thing you can do is not go. Forcing the conference to deal with low attendees will make them change locations. If they change to Australia we win. You can then consider yourself a soldier in ECONOMIC WARFARE, the best warfare!
06:31pm 06/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2444 posts

Lel
https://twitter.com/PRESlDENTBANNON/status/850072144721661952

1. Say you won't go to war if elected
2. Get elected
3. Tell Syrian dictator he can stay
4. Watch dictator gas people
5. Go to war

Winning


That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.
03:21pm 07/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2445 posts
Lets take it as read trump is hypocritical.

Maybe that isn't what I'm talking about.

wouldn't want to let trump set the standard of political discourse after all old bean.
04:35pm 07/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2446 posts
Majority Of Republicans Voted 'No' When Obama Wanted To Launch A Strike On Syria


Here is a slightly more comprehensive history of the 2013 red line

the idea that Obama wanted to do more but was blocked by an obstructionist congress is simply untrue. Obama got in to fights with successive secretaries of state not to get involved in Syria.

You should avoid huffpo.
12:44pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2447 posts
what do you mean vash.

link that article to that statement.

or are you going to apply your "socialist" reasoning.

because Trump really has to worry about the polls 100 days into a 4 year tenure with a super majority.
05:18pm 09/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38872 posts
If you don't read news.com.au you don't know what to be enraged about - it's very liberating
06:50pm 09/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25795 posts
newsdotcomdotau is the dumb c*** who at least knows they're a dumb c*** so it's not too embarrassing. theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.
07:21pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2448 posts
what I find so enjoyable about vash is he uses kek now and when 1400 people have been killed by sarin gas.

I just really enjoy how he and redhat were worried about the tone of political debate would fall if trump got in. (though it seems some piggies are more than a little accustomed to the mud eh)

It really is glorious how little self awareness is involved.

so how about those swedes hey, last night. <---- do you get it?

If only they'd been involved in less wars in the last 200 years and been less Islamophobic. wonder what that "anti islam womans" view might be on the subject.

see what I did there viper?

theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.


the guardian is for the dumb c*** who likes to wank with that shameful s***.
09:25pm 09/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25796 posts
The guardian is undeniably a left leaning publication. The Australian is bona fide right wing propoganda trash. It's foolish to compare them. Perhaps huffpost would make a more apt comparison but I'm going by reputation only as I don't really read huffpost at all.
09:52pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2449 posts
Dude the guardian is at least as bad as the Australian.

You need a serious reality check if you think otherwise.

they are so far up their own confirmation bias hole, they published this confirmed hoax article. If you think they aren't telling you what you want to hear you are sorely mistaken.
10:01pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2450 posts
Sounds about right too, as I've seen it happen myself.

You are familiar with the concept of a hoax. the fact you agree with it is proof positive of confirmation bias. the point of the exercise was to see if they would publish an article which appealed to his perception of their biases and the Guardian dutifully obliged.

I'm afraid I don't, maybe I'm just not self aware enough or following the thread that closely, please enlighten me kind sir.


*edit*FWIW I specifically excluded you from that sentence*/edit*

You cannot simultaneously say trump is a fine purveyor hate speech *edit* and this will destroy democracy as we know it */edit*, and then be all "lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed". but seeing as we want to play that game apparently lol trump was totally right about Sweden. Guess the Swedish government should have spent more time posing for photo opps in hijabs hey?


On Syria, isn't that conflating two separate things? 1) Majority of Republicans voting no to Obama's airstrikes in response to chemical weapon use, 2) Obama's general intent to not get involved in Syria.


I disagree that is a conflation. for a start he took it to congress only after he was having doubts about going through with it, that is very clear from the Atlantic article. If you were to come to me with a proposition to bomb another country but you didn't really want to do it, I'd vote exactly the same way.

It does not mean that Trump's tweet is un-hypocritical, but make no mistake that strike is in keeping with broader American foreign policy since at least 1991.

If you want my cynical reading of it, politically it plays well for two reasons. 1) there is now an actual red line. 2) it is now difficult to argue he is Putin's man. there is no way to cut it that this is good for Putin's plans in Syria. and as for the hypocritical nature of it, he can always point to the fact that Assad is using chemical weapons on his own people, and say, I'll be a hypocrite and do something when children are gassed. It's going to be difficult to credibly take him to task on it.

If we're decrying all these news outlets as s***rolls, please pray tell what bastions of insightful truth you read?


I don't read a single one anymore, because you can't. For stuff like this Syrian strike I go to as many as I can, and then try to extract a coherent whole. Generally, the NYtimes and the AFR strike me as pretty good. TBH the Australian's legal section is actually pretty good. I still trust the ABC and the BBC, though the BBC less so these days.

Journalism in general seems to have been poisoned by a hoard of millennial bloggers who know a lot about Foucault (well at least have read a lot) and how to push a narrative and virtually nothing else.
08:55am 10/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2452 posts
What you talking bout willis!? I don't think I've been towing those lines to that degree at all tbh


I never said you did. but it is what I am getting at with this line.

That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.


Which you appeared to confuse with endorsing the strike.

There were Republicans demanding Obama go to congress first as it's an act of war who have now supported Trump striking unilaterally without congressional approval.


I have little doubt there were, and as I have said not seeking congressional approval is hypocritical for Trump at least. However, I see an important difference between that and house republicans not voting for a plan the president was clearly second guessing, and being ok with this.

and moreover, you will be able to find democrats calling this unilateralism an assault democracy who happily oversaw Obama's dramatic expansion of the drone program.

It is never the less not good that we appear to be heading toward intervention. I would much rather stay out.
05:48pm 10/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2453 posts
From my perspective, I questioned whether political point scoring is a valid criticism, whether destroying chemical weapons is inherently good, and made the point that the hypocrisy is really apparent.


Appreciated, however what I was attempting to point out, poorly it would seem, is that sir redhat and vash are both balls deep in the political correctness is a good thing and trump is bad for disregarding it.

It seems to me if we need to be sensitive to feels, specially to our Islamic chums, taking the attitude "lol trump won't tolerate a bunch of them (including children) being gassed" is somewhat problematic.
09:26am 12/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25799 posts
Sean Spicer 'not even Hitler used chemical weapons' lol
02:34pm 12/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38877 posts
Rent don't buy, losers!

Also are they seriously talking about letting people use their super to buy houses with?!

I like the idea of encouraging people to move regionally through incentives but not sure how well it will work. Better transport options out to smaller towns I think would make a big difference. Bring on the high speed rail amirite?
04:58pm 12/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2454 posts
Unfortunately that's the only option left when facts & logic doesn't cut it.


It's adorable you think you've ever posted anything approximating either.
07:28am 13/04/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13693 posts
Unfortunately that's the only option left when you're unable to support your position with arguments that withstand scrutiny

fixed
03:54pm 13/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2468 posts
Remind the class which system of government NK uses Vash.
10:49am 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2469 posts
You are such an adorable moron.
12:18pm 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2470 posts
It really is special.

He knows more about islam than imams and more about socialism than lenin mao and marx combined.

Kim Jung Un is really just a misunderstood CEO.
12:27pm 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1826 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
Send Private Message
01:09pm 18/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38883 posts
Two years is plenty of time to train someone of slightly lower experience.
Not if you are growing / expanding rapidly and need to fill holes in order to stay competitive on the international scene
06:54pm 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2472 posts
There could be a youtube channel in the "guardian reacts"

calling an election is a coup.
09:24am 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2473 posts
It's an hysterical article.

the author claims May has trashed her brand, and she is likely to win in landslide.

That is flat out incoherent. I get why you like it now.
10:39am 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2474 posts