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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7772 posts
I just wished the Greens went back to focusing on environmental issues instead of identity politics. They might claw back more of the centre if they did.

09:33pm 12/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39367 posts
hey does the same sex marriage debate count as 'identity politics'?

The Greens policy positions have not changed; their prime drivers are still environmental issues. Can I say that the Liberals should get back to focusing on whatever the hell their core platform is so they get more centrist votes, instead of just doing 'identity politics' , by simply cherry picking one recent thing they did? In terms of taxpayer dollars spent in Australia which party is spending more on 'identity politics'?
10:01pm 12/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7773 posts
I get your point but I'll raise you another. I feel that ALP, Lib, NP and Greens have all lost focus on their core values. Hence, why our political landscape is so fractured and these minor parties are getting so much oxygen.
10:09pm 12/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39368 posts
Yeh I certainly have similar feelings. I have to wonder if it's a side effect of the Internet - now they have hordes of staff hand-crafting a tailored response to every minor thing that happens on which they should have a position.

So they end up having a huge, broad diverse range of opinions on as many politics - but none of it is tied together with an all-encompassing ideology that makes sense to people, at least not in the way that they need it to in order to understand what the party actually /believes/ and thus might do in any situation. (Not having consistency amongst views is a pet peeve of mine.)

So we seem to end up with ALL parties feeling like a one-trick pony with no real substance to them. And thus literally everything they do seems like 'identity politics' - so to me the term is totally meaningless.

This is one of the reasons why I originally built this voting thing back for the 2010 election - I thought noone knew what the hell the parties they were voting for believed in. And judging from the emails I got from people that used it... I think that's the case.
10:31pm 12/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5643 posts
Many people are very surprised when they do those political compasses. It just shows how much influence the media has on perception of political parties, and how little individuals research their own political views, and the policy platforms of political parties they vote for.
Overwhelmingly people vote against their own interests.
10:39pm 12/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39369 posts
I had an idea a few years ago that I'd like to try for the next federal election:

Standardised voting cards for each party that are handed out in electorates, basically to (hopefully) replace the s*** spam that the parties hand out themselves. Each candidate would get the exact same amount of space and would have 3-5 of their main policy points for local (i.e., what they're going to do for their direct electorate) and regional (i.e., what they're going to do for the state/country).
10:56pm 12/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23884 posts
hey does the same sex marriage debate count as 'identity politics'?

The Greens policy positions have not changed; their prime drivers are still environmental issues. Can I say that the Liberals should get back to focusing on whatever the hell their core platform is so they get more centrist votes, instead of just doing 'identity politics' , by simply cherry picking one recent thing they did? In terms of taxpayer dollars spent in Australia which party is spending more on 'identity politics'?


Hear hear! Get back to closing govt committees and enquiries, slashing welfare and reducing taxes, repeal regulation and Red tape and leave identity politics to Labor and the Greens.

The libs did well when they were pitching policy to the aspirational Middle class but now they are too busy pandering to the QANDA ABC types and not offending anyone. Howard with the Tampa kicked a massive goal as did with his personal tax cuts.

The welfare growth has created a dependant underclass. It is so easy to vote for more handouts for oneself - they are not paying for it.
11:04pm 12/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5644 posts
I sure hope the LNP attempts to enact those policies, Infi, it'll send far more votes to the ALP/Greens, especially as the youth of today are far more woke with the free flowing of information & ideas shared on the Internet.
11:09pm 12/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23885 posts
I sure hope the LNP attempts to enact those policies, Infi, it'll send far more votes to the ALP/Greens, especially as the youth of today are far more woke with the free flowing of information & ideas shared on the Internet.


I hope so too, Greens can win one seat. That's OK.
11:12pm 12/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39370 posts
Hear hear! Get back to closing govt committees and enquiries, slashing welfare and reducing taxes, repeal regulation and Red tape and leave identity politics to Labor and the Greens.
well, you kind of missed my point: everything is "identity politics" (and always has been). Trump is the golem-like accretion of "identity politics" come to life; one of the many reasons why it boggles my mind that you (or any other Australian, or genuine conservative) would see him as a rallying point.
The libs did well when they were pitching policy to the aspirational Middle class but now they are to body pandering to the QANDA ABC types and not offending anyone. Howard with the Tampa kicked a massive goal as did with his machine tax cuts.
I dunno if there is an aspirational middle class any more. I think there's just a bunch of people that want to stop feeling like they're getting wrecked by an aristocracy that is growing in wealth and power every day.

Speaking of voting of handouts for oneself, I'd rather start with cuts to government salaries & entitlements (one thing I suspect you & I both agree on).
12:55am 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2926 posts
well, you kind of missed my point: everything is "identity politics" (and always has been).


What utter tosh.

identity politics is the belief that you are the cross section of you overlapping and oppressed group identities. There is one side of politics that has an utter monopoly on that.

Trump is the golem-like accretion of "identity politics" come to life;


If by trump got white people to vote as a block, then this is accurate. But considering out group bias against political affiliation is stronger than out group bias against race, I wonder how the f*** he managed that.

I wonder if an article like this has anything to do with it. That's an article produced at a university suggesting white people's dna is an abomination. Shockingly, white people didn't flock to an attitude that supports that. But all politics is identity politics. Get a grip.

As for the greens being primarily moved environmental issues maybe you need to touch base with senator hansen young.

This is why Milo is so useful Viper

an Australian senator said someone should not be able to speak at parliament because he doesn't believe in rape culture.

because someone doesn't believe in a baseless extreme left theory they shouldn't be able to speak at parliament.

We have that on the record now. Wouldn't have happened without Milo.

Spook is right if he were just ignored there'd probably be nothing to worry about.

But the right people are not ignoring him, the right people are giving him a massive platform and exposing themselves as petite despots.

We can ignore him all we want. As long as people turn up and protest him and in particular f***wit parliamentarians feel the need to censor him he ain't going away.

The other thing that is extremely enjoyable is watching tolerant fpot wank off to stereotypes about as well rounded as you'd expect. It's like he's learnt that you can't be openly bigoted against brown people and he needs to find an outlet that is socially acceptable.
07:34am 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5645 posts
There is one side of politics that has an utter monopoly on that.


Yeah, the alt right. A group that believe they are oppressed, and their identity is being threatened.
We should be concentrating on real oppression, not make believe ones.
09:46am 13/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23886 posts
The alt-right - famous champions of: Black Lives Matter, LGBTIQ, white privilege, feminism, islamism, open borders. The alt-right home of identity politics.

Vash no matter how retarded leftism seems, you somehow manage to make it look even more retarded. I can understand why you quote so much Chomsky (although I suspect you don't actually read him, just the Guardian/Buzzfeed headlines).
11:19am 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5646 posts
Im mostly trolling, but also pointing out the hypocrisy of the alt right. If they think identity politics is a problem, then don't champion mens rights, white power, and dont think that whites are being oppressed or their identity threatened by immigration or the left.
The alt right is doing the exact same thing as the left, but completely blind to it, as usual.

The reason the left have more association with identity politics i think, is because they are more capable of empathy, and seeing that other groups are indeed oppressed, and not their own. This is something that white nationalists struggle with, so they speak out against identity politics.

https://i.imgur.com/kYADIyB.jpg
12:19pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9537 posts
The alt-right - famous champions of: Black Lives Matter, LGBTIQ, white privilege, feminism, islamism, open borders. The alt-right home of identity politics.


Uhhhhh, what?!

I just want to confirm, you think the alt-right are the same people as any of the groups on the right of your list? And so we're abundantly clear and don't get a beating-around-the-bush answer, that's a pretty simple question that can be answered with a 'yes' or 'no'. I'm going to take a round-about answer as a 'yes'...
01:55pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13737 posts
he was being ironic in response to vash's suggestion that the alt-right have the monopoly on identity politics
02:08pm 13/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39371 posts
I'm not sure if the irony of being ironic like that is obvious enough though

if you create a list of stuff that "the left" has made into "identity politics" then surely by definition "the right" cares about it in a 1/[list of items] inverse kind of manner through exactly the same "identity politics" mechanism?
05:47pm 13/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39372 posts
The alt-right - famous champions of: Black Lives Matter, LGBTIQ, white privilege, feminism, islamism, open borders. The alt-right home of identity politics.
with the obvious exception of Islamism (one of these things isn't not like the other; perhaps you mean religious freedom?) it is this kind of dismissive manner that you write about these things - that they are fantasy issues that noone serious should ever care about!! - that highlights (to me anyway) why the alt-right and their use of the terms "sjw", "identity politics" and "virtue signalling" are all so hilarious. Like believing the exact opposite of a stated position by someone is not its very own form of the same. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

FWIW these are actual issues that people should care about. I don't consider myself a fanatic on any of these issues and none of "the lefts" that I know are but they all have what I consider to be fairly reasoned and sane positions on these topics:

- Black Lives Matter is a reminder that black people are killed way above the background rate by cops. Specifics of the WHY (e.g., gang violence etc is a big problem) are less important than an acknowledgement that it's an important topic that needs to be resolved, instead of just screaming at Kaeperinick for kneeling. (edit)
- LGBTIQ - why anyone would try to pretend that this isn't a problem in society is beyond me, especially libertarians
- white privilege - it's weird that white people had such a good run after enslaving and subjugating people of colour for a few centuries and now have ended up in most of the positions of power; can't they just get OVER it already
- Islamism - Islamism as a specific term meaning the domination of Islam IS a problem but absolutely zero "the lefts" actually support this; they believe in religious freedom. Equating religious freedom with Islamism is a huge false equivalency. I don't know that many Muslims (my ex-girlfriend was Arabic and came from Muslim background so I know some of her family that are) but fwiw none I do know believe in Islamism. At all. I'd say they're opposed to it of anything.
- feminism - domestic violence, pay gap, women's right to choose, etc, etc. There are plenty of actual real feminist issues that are important.
- open borders - again I don't know any "the lefts" that want pure open borders (I know way more wealthy business people that want more of an open border than I do scruffy hippies that just want to open the floodgates). The one possible difference I have with others is I think we could be considering religious quotas (as long as it's applied equally to all religions) as a restriction classifier.

Compare that to what I've read from the "alt-rights":

- Black Lives Matter is bulls*** because more black people are criminals as a percentage so obviously they are going to get shot more by the police and as a white person my people never commit crime (except mass shootings which we are weirdly prolific at but this is probably not a big deal right)
- LGBTIQ is bulls*** because people are born with one specific gender out of a possible pool of two and should never ever change, also families are by definition one man and one woman married and non-zero number of children (please don't ask us about what happens if a couple can't have children or if one parent dies or if they divorce as they are statistically likely to do)
- Islamism is bulls*** and people should practice the one true religion, my religion, which I wholeheartedly believe all the time (except the bits that contradict the other bits or the ones that are even slightly inconvenient)
- feminism is bulls*** because men have it really tough too (except in a few limited situations like almost all positions of financial or political power)
- open borders are bulls*** because people should f*** off back to where they came from (except my family of course which came to this country in a boat between 200-400 years ago) and refugees fleeing the shrapnel that my country is dropping on them should stay and sort out their own bulls*** countries instead of coming to try to live safely in ours and presumably ruin it somehow

haha, yeh but it's not "identity poltics". Edit: in case it's not clear it's this type of obnoxious dismissive argument that makes these debates so painful and wind up with people hand waving it away saying 'identify politics! Virtue signalling!' etc.

(edited to try to highlight irony a bit better, on a train on mobile so hard to write!)
06:22pm 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2927 posts
Like believing the exact opposite of a stated position by someone is not its very own form of the same. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.
but they all have what I consider to be fairly reasoned and sane positions on these topics:
Black Lives Matter is a reminder that black people are killed way above the background rate by cops. Regardless of WHY (e.g., gang violence etc is a big problem) it is an important topic that needs to be resolved
Regardless of WHY (e.g., gang violence etc is a big problem) it is an important topic that needs to be resolved
Regardless of WHY
it is an important topic that needs to be resolved
I consider to be fairly reasoned and sane positions
Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.


Hahaha

fixed this for you

Like not taking at face value (or objecting to being called racist/sexist/homophobe for failing to take at face value) or asking for supporting evidence of a stated position by someone is not its very own form of the same. Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.


edit

Because it's such a train wreck of a post (infi has cognitive dissonance yeah ok)

lets add some more

feminism is bulls*** because men have it really tough too (except in a few limited situations like almost all positions of financial or political power)


In the UK the prime minster is female. As a result all female claims of having it tough are laughably stupid.

I consider to be fairly reasoned and sane positions


Lets step through the reasoning of everything you just posted. Ready.

if there is a statistical gap of any kind between the perceived powerful group and the perceived oppressed minority it is completely explained by systemic bigotry against the perceived oppressed minority group at the hands of the perceived powerful group.

That is literally as deep as any of those issues go. Ever.

Don't forget though, if you suspect that the above reasoning *might not cure all societal ills*, you too are a practitioner of identity politics.
06:48pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5647 posts
Well said Trog. needed to be said.
But it'll just get people like PP triggered instead of getting them to have a think about these issues.

Those dang liberals/ leftists, giving a s*** about minorities. How dare they.
07:37pm 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2928 posts
hey vash

Chomsky was a Khmer Rouge genocide denier.

Those dang liberals/ leftists, giving a s*** about minorities.
Chomsky, he said, questioned "refugee testimony" believing that "their stories were exaggerations or fabrications, designed for a western media involved in a 'vast and unprecedented propaganda campaign' against the Khmer Rouge government, 'including systematic distortion of the truth.'"


Feel the tolerance.
07:49pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5648 posts
There it is, the usual PP tactics when he's triggered.
You aren't capable of attacking a message, only character. Chomsky makes great points, lets find something to discredit him not even related to those points.
Have you tried discrediting Trump anytime recently? No? Interesting.

Someone posts an article, lets not argue against the article, lets attack the journalist.

Hint: reality isn't a court room.
08:04pm 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2929 posts
You are capable of higher order thought right?

Chomsky makes great points, lets find something to discredit him not even related to those points.


ahem this is Chomsky's point.

their stories were exaggerations or fabrications, designed for a western media involved in a 'vast and unprecedented propaganda campaign' against the Khmer Rouge government


This is the entire thesis of manufacturing consent. that the US rules the world through media manipulation.

You argue lefties are super empathetic to oppressed people. Here is the queen of the left arguing oppressed people are making it up because it supports his crack pot theory. Oh and lets toss Pol Pot was a Marxist into the mix.


Have you tried discrediting Trump anytime recently? No? Interesting


Because you have failed to criticize Chomsky I assume you also deny the Khmer Rouge genocide.
08:12pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5649 posts
Lol. Oh you'll never learn.
09:03pm 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2930 posts
if you say so captain there have been multiple nazi presidents of the US.
09:13pm 13/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23887 posts
Your mind will not be changed Trog, nor will mine. Identity politics purports that all people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

Identity politics is essentially an intentional overcompensation by government and social institutions in order to address a perceived inter-generational inequality. This is exemplified by - positive discrimination, diversity recruiting (not recruiting the best candidate), diversity policies and programs, quotas, particular govt funded programs, campus safe spaces, unequal application of the law (sanctuary cities, Obama DACA laws), general disdain for white males, have you killed a man today?, the list of attention seeking behaviour grouped as identity politics is extensive.

I watch a lot of youtube ground reports where reporters interview protestors to get inside their mind. the mind of these protestors is truly terrifying to watch in action (these are our future politicians and vice-chancellors). check out fleccas talks or squatting slav, stephen crowder is good too (Change my mind series). The insanity going around American academia shows social activists are not interested in minorities living compatibly but requiring special treatment. And as Milo said at his talk, Australia is not there yet but our left-wing media, government and academic institutions are ripe for similar - (plus Australia does not have constitutional protection of freedom of speech).

Liberals used to be in favour of equality for all, equality of opportunity, but liberals are now far removed from that, it's about equality of outcome. Identity politics has transformed the liberal movement into an emphasis on tokenism and it eventually harms the minorities it intends to help.

You are obviously very sympathetic to this tokenism but Black Lives Matters alone is so hollow and tokenistic. The protestors want to emphasise isolated incidents of police violence but fail to address systemic poor black educational outcomes, higher black on black gun violence and drug involvement, higher black single parent families and the resultant poverty traps from black cultural and family issues.
09:27pm 13/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2931 posts
The protestors want to emphasise isolated incidents of police violence


And lets not forget that according the Washington Post the number of unarmed black people killed in 2016 was 17.

The overwhelming majority killed by police had a gun when they were shot.

The grand total of black people shot by police was 233.

But regardless of WHY, its a problem that needs urgent attention and if you don't agree that police are systemically racist on those figures you're a racist.
09:54pm 13/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5650 posts
'isolated incidents'
'Black people were 25% (258) of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.'
Oh dear.
Even 17 killed unarmed is far too many.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

So much freedom.
11:18pm 13/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26137 posts
I personally find 17 people to be a highly acceptable murder rate committed by the organisation tasked with the protection of the public. That's of course not counting the people murdered who did have a gun but weren't threatening anyone with it, like the murder committed by Jeronimo Yanez who was of course acquitted of his crime. Nope, no problem whatsoever.
01:21am 14/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39373 posts
Your mind will not be changed Trog, nor will mine. Identity politics purports that all people are equal but some people are more equal than others.
I think the difference I'm struggling is with I will cheerfully admit I'm engaging in 'identity politics' though. I am not super fanatic about any of the things you raised but I have more than a passing concern about them. I would factor them into my voting and I don't see why that is a weird thing - if a party got up and proclaimed ]that they care about those issues and would be taking them into consideration in their policies I think that is a worthy thing.

I understand your positions on most things even though I disagree with them. But I can't fathom why people are so loathe to admit they're engaging in the same behaviours that they're so weirdly opposed to in others, but just from the opposite side.

I imagine you would vehemently disagree with me saying you're engaging in "identity politics" of any stripe, but it makes me wonder: what is the alternative to it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding everything but the only thing I can think of that can supersede it is an all-encompassing world-view or framework that allows you to make all your decisions by just referencing it. Libertarianism might let you do that, or the Bible, but I can't think of any actual normal non-crazy person that has such a generic model that is applicable to the world with zero interaction with specific sub-groups in an "identity politics" kind of manner.

I guess I'm not really interested in a blow-by-blow on each of the issues - I actually regret commenting on them at all; I was just trying to be hilariously snarky in an attempt to draw an ironic comparison, but it distracts from the issue I care about most, which is trying to figure out how people are thinking about these issues at a higher level. I can't figure out what the parent ideologies are that lend themselves to someone listing these - or ANY - social concerns as if they are Bad Things; the problem is that all the ones that fit are somewhat unflattering.

If you don't want to talk about 'identity politics', what are the options for over-arching political viewpoints, world outlooks, etc that lend themselves to ignoring them at a low level and having them solved by just general principles?


(edited: to add scare quotes in a few places I forgot)
01:30am 14/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9538 posts
I personally find 17 people to be a highly acceptable murder rate committed by the organisation tasked with the protection of the public. That's of course not counting the people murdered who did have a gun but weren't threatening anyone with it, like the murder committed by Jeronimo Yanez who was of course acquitted of his crime. Nope, no problem whatsoever.


Sarcasm doesn't come across so well on the internet. This would be a perfect quote for a billboard.
06:58am 14/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2932 posts
I personally find 17 people to be a highly acceptable murder rate committed by the organisation tasked with the protection of the public. That's of course not counting the people murdered who did have a gun but weren't threatening anyone with it, like the murder committed by Jeronimo Yanez who was of course acquitted of his crime. Nope, no problem whatsoever.


Ok dingleberry

But 23 unarmed white people were killed.

443 over all.

If you have a gun, and get involved with an altercation with the cops, the cops are legally empowered and more over correct to shoot and kill you. And they kill more white people every single year.

So the actual issue. You know that systemic racism is the cause of this imbalance is a crock of s***.

Oh and guess what they didn't kill any unarmed asians. Woops. Systemic racism is the cause of the majority of police shootings (which in any case are incredibly rare) killing whites and no asians at all. Fun fact, Asians commit the least crime of any demographic in the the US. but systemic racism.

if there is a statistical gap of any kind between the perceived powerful group and the perceived oppressed minority it is completely explained by systemic bigotry against the perceived oppressed minority group at the hands of the perceived powerful group.


this as deep as you are capable of thinking.

Lets cut the data another way.

Men make up 95.8% of all police shootings. but they only make up 50% of the population.

That is a skew that is more than double the size of the one present for blacks.

Your infallible logic *requires* that men are the victims of systemic bigotry at the hands of the police.

Don't forget, if you now suggest that men commit most violent crime (or there is some innocent reason that police have more violent contact with men) you're a heinous bigot.

like the murder committed by Jeronimo Yanez who was of course acquitted of his crime


Charged with and successfully defended manslaughter charges, with witness testimony saying the victim reached for his weapon. But we can't let the facts of the case get in the way of virtue signalling. Look at how virtuous you are fpot. A case where you don't know anything about facts but you definitely know a person of colour was murdered by a (hispanic) cop.

fpot definitely can't be racist everyone. He is just obsessed with people of colour being treated as chattel.
07:02am 14/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5651 posts
Whites (including Hispanics who identify as White) constitute the majority, with a total of about 246,660,710, or 77.35% of the population as of 2014. Non-Hispanic Whites totaled about 197,870,516, or 62.06% of the U.S. population.
37,144,530 non-Hispanic blacks, which comprised 12.1% of the population. This number increased to 42 million according to the 2010 United States Census, when including Multiracial African Americans, making up 14% of the total U.S. population.


Have a think about the history of oppression against blacks, that takes much longer than 50 years to resolve as its still embedded in culture. There is still widespread racism committed by the state & population.

'Im not racist, i have a black friend or husband'
Totally fool proof logic said by many an alt rightie.
09:39am 14/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9539 posts
If you have a gun, and get involved with an altercation with the cops, the cops are legally empowered and more over correct to shoot and kill you. And they kill more white people every single year.


This is a bloody stupid argument in a country that grants citizens *the right to keep and bear arms*. It would make sense in Australia. It makes utterly no sense in the United States. And that's coming from someone who thinks their gun rights and justifications/interpreatations of the amendments are utterly stupid.
10:04am 14/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23888 posts
I imagine you would vehemently disagree with me saying you're engaging in "identity politics" of any stripe, but it makes me wonder: what is the alternative to it?


everyone is equal under the law, your minority status is irrelevant and does not confer a benefit. it's that simple.

I personally find 17 people to be a highly acceptable murder rate committed by the organisation tasked with the protection of the public.


law enforcement is a messy job, and accidents happen, cops have to get better at neutralising offenders without killing them. i am far more concerned about the thousands of black men killing each other each year in gang warfare though. i would have thought that was deserving of a movement but it requires black people to reflect on their own culture rather than blaming the govt.

Liberals want identity to be the discussion point as it distracts from examination of personal accountability.
10:08am 14/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26139 posts
Or they will kill you if they think you have a gun, like this guy. <- extremely graphic footage of a person being shot to death by the police in really disturbing circumstances. America's gun laws are completely f***ed, as is their law enforcement. It's a complete and utter mess yet you want people to look away and pretend there isn't a problem. Why is that?

edit:
i am far more concerned about the thousands of black men killing each other each year in gang warfare though.
What's needed for that is a stable and competent law enforcement, not a bunch of trigger happy s***heels whose only tactic is intimidation and gunfire with You're F***ed etched onto their AR-15s. This is what everybody wants, or is it?
10:12am 14/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23890 posts
do you truly believe that black america's culture self-destruction is a policing thing?
10:20am 14/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9540 posts
What's needed for that is a stable and competent law enforcement, not a bunch of trigger happy s***heels whose only tactic is intimidation and gunfire with You're F***ed etched onto their AR-15s. This is what everybody wants, or is it?


I don't often agree outwardly with fpot, but this one also belongs on a billboard for different reasons.
10:28am 14/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26140 posts
I don't believe their culture is self-destructing for a start. Do you honestly believe that? You know you sound completely radicalised right? 2013 you knew to keep his mouth shut. You never would have openly said you'd vote against SSM or go to a Milo talk back then. But just look at us now. All boisterous after his months in the political echo chamber and an avatar of his awfulness as POTUS. Good for you!

But to answer your question, no. Surely you must acknowledge that a police force full of scared little numpties with military grade equipment is going to make things significantly worse? You're about to tell me you think the police are doing a fine job aren't you?
10:30am 14/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23891 posts

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jason-riley-the-other-ferguson-tragedy-1416961287

According to the FBI, homicide is the leading cause of death among young black men, who are 10 times more likely than their white counterparts to be murdered. And while you’d never know it watching MSNBC, the police are not to blame. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., and more than 90% of black murder victims are killed by other blacks. Liberals like to point out that most whites are killed by other whites, too. That’s true but beside the point given that the white crime rate is so much lower than the black rate.

Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do. The fact that their victims tend to be of the same race suggests that young black men in the ghetto live in danger of being shot by each other, not cops. Nor is this a function of “over-policing” certain neighborhoods to juice black arrest rates. Research has long shown that the rate at which blacks are arrested is nearly identical to the rate at which crime victims identify blacks as their assailants. The police are in these communities because that’s where the emergency calls originate, and they spend much of their time trying to stop residents of the same race from harming one another.


I think the cops do a fine job and do not go into these situations intending to kill someone. But they deal with the worst of the worst. It's sad that all hell breaks loose in the community when the cops shoot someone, and then no one bats an eyelid when another kid has his dad walk out, or another son gets shot in a drug dealing dispute.
10:41am 14/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5652 posts


Posted this before, but it explains some of the causes behind the systematic oppression of blacks.
There's cause & effect Infi. Why are black communities seen as self destructive? Why do they turn to drugs & crime?
10:57am 14/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26141 posts
I like how I said I don't think the police are responsible for the high level of violence and crime amongst minority groups yet you continue to prattle on like I did say they were responsible. Or was that your evidence that black culture in the USA is indeed self-destructing? If so then you need to try a little better.
11:40am 14/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9541 posts
Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.


Everyone who has done an even rudimentary investigation in to this issue knows that this is not true, and a complete mis-representation of reality.

Blacks are convicted of violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate of whites. Conviction rates are absolutely not the same as action rates. There are so many factors that affect this outcome, including and not limited to racial profiling, economies and socioeconomic factors, their access to representation, the rate of prosecution, their willingness to challenge charges, and the sentences requested.

The simple fact is that if you only prosecute 10% of whites accused and prosecute 50% of blacks accused, blacks are already at a disadvantage in the statistics.
11:53am 14/12/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
883 posts

We also have extra programs in place to assist underprivileged groups unlock "Armour of Underprivileged Privilege +3". May be worn only by Underprivileged.

https://www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/publications/factsheets-and-resources


04:32pm 14/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2933 posts
This is a bloody stupid argument in a country that grants citizens *the right to keep and bear arms*.


No it isn't? The right to bear arms is not the same as the right to waive them in a cops face, nor follow legal orders from a cop. You could make the case that they should follow cops directions more religiously because of the right to bear arms.

Blacks are convicted of violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate of whites.


I can't find a source for this, and the article clipping itself says that multiple data sources confirm (investigate rates, not conviction rates, as well as victimization studies) a significantly elevated violent crime rate for blacks. More over the idea that we just aren't prosecuting white murderers (to the extent it would meaningfully affect the stats) is absurd on its face. FBI Data explicitly doesn't measure convictions for the record.

Plus I simply fail to see how the fact of convictions affects the central claim which is that the most likely cause of death for young black males is murder. How would conviction rates impact that stat at all?

I have heard of racial sentencing disparities, but I have never heard anyone claim particularly in relation murder that white murderers just don't get prosecuted.

Or they will kill you if they think you have a gun, like this guy.


Gee I don't want to be the fun police in the middle of virtue party, but wasn't david shaver white?

Nobody is making the claim that no police ever shoot people when they shouldn't. The claim BLM specifically make is that Black over-representation in police shootings is because of systemic police racism. I simply fail to see how showing a graphic video of a white person being shot helps that argument *at all*.

showing a graphic video sure is one way to make people emotional. Why show that as evidence of anything? Even if it is exactly as it appears, and it may well not be, are there any grounds whatsoever to consider that a typical shooting scenario? I seriously doubt it.

You know you sound completely radicalised right?
What's needed for that is a stable and competent law enforcement, not a bunch of trigger happy s***heels whose only tactic is intimidation and gunfire with You're F***ed etched onto their AR-15s. This is what everybody wants, or is it?


Classic fpot. Bases his case on an extreme example and calls infi an extreme racist for mentioning a well supported set of data.

Nailed it.

The argument BLM make to be crystal clear is:

Black people are over represented in police killings because of systemic racism in the police departments.

If you want to make the argument that elevated crime rates are due to historical oppression, it seems to me you have conceded that police have a reason to have more contact with black people. This is fatal to an argument the police are *SYSTEMICALLY* racist therefore over representation.

But I refer you back to trogs post, now claiming it was ironic though I doubt it, I see no evidence that anyone (who is trying to make the case for BLM) is interested in WHY the disparity exists. They just want to insist the police are systemically racist trigger happy s***heels.
07:30pm 14/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39375 posts
everyone is equal under the law, your minority status is irrelevant and does not confer a benefit. it's that simple.
is it a benefit if (say) a synagogue gets increased police protection because of Nazis?
07:46pm 14/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2934 posts
is it a benefit if (say) a synagogue gets increased police protection because of Nazis?


Someone is in denial about modern antisemitism.
07:52pm 14/12/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
884 posts
is it a benefit if (say) a synagogue gets increased police protection because of Nazis?


I don't think it's just Nazi's. They are also a target of some terrorist groups.

The US led coalition members have increased security in place because we are targets.

Schools in crime havens tend to have bigger fences than schools in low crime areas. High crime areas tend to have more police.

Just like in low socioeconomic areas where people make poor decisions about nutrition and how to spend money, have more McDonald's stores.
01:15pm 15/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5653 posts
If you want to make the argument that elevated crime rates are due to historical oppression, it seems to me you have conceded that police have a reason to have more contact with black people. This is fatal to an argument the police are *SYSTEMICALLY* racist therefore over representation.


It can be both, PP. When systematically blacks have been oppressed for much of history, police are a cause of that systematic oppression.

Police always behave in the eyes of the law, protectors of the people, regardless of their skin color. They have no thoughts, feelings or prejudices. They are robots.

Reminder: Police are people. and people can be racist.
02:14pm 15/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7775 posts
Ed209 was racist against white yuppies, maybe it was just a glitch



white yuppy lives matter

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 15:16:54 15/Dec/17
03:14pm 15/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26146 posts
It was actually a room full of corporate fascists so if the safety of the public was its prime directive then it didn't actually malfunction.
05:18pm 15/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2935 posts

It can be both, PP. When systematically blacks have been oppressed for much of history, police are a cause of that systematic oppression.


Yeah so its 2017 not 1963.

They have no thoughts, feelings or prejudices. They are robots.


That's funny because you know something? It's precisely because they're not robots that you should defer to their situational judgement.

Thank you for making points for me vash.

Reminder: Police are people. and people can be racist.



This is not

the police are *SYSTEMICALLY* racist


this.

Some police are racist some of the time is a *world* apart from the police are systemically racist vash. a world apart.
05:30pm 15/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5654 posts
Yes after 1963 blacks magically had equal opportunity and were no longer oppressed. Ending like a fairy tale.

BLM was created for no reason. At all.

Another hint, Police, like people, have different political and philosophical beliefs, and plenty would choose not to engage in such a systematic oppression of blacks. Because you know, morals and understanding their plight and all that kinda good stuff.

The perception of American cops is bad for a reason. Im sure some people out there are thinking American cops are oppressed now, it certainly wouldn't surprise, as we now have a white lives matter movement.
05:47pm 15/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2936 posts
Vash you're talking s*** again.

if you can't show the police as an organisation are systemically racist against blacks BLM's argument is false.

BLM was created by people who idolize a convicted cop killer. The argument they exist therefore they have to be on to something is palpably absurd.

Yes after 1963 blacks magically had equal opportunity and were no longer oppressed. Ending like a fairy tale.


Yes so 2017 is exactly as racist as 1963. You have literally never mentioned anything other than an incoherent leftist platitude vash.
06:05pm 15/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3336 posts
By that logic if the flat earth society exists then the earth must indeed actually be flat, or flatish.. ?
11:54pm 15/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2937 posts
can go one better than that.

the KKK must exist for a reason.

NAMBLA exists. that's a thing. vash thinks they are on to something, they exist after all. guess vash and milo aren't so different hey.
12:01am 16/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5655 posts
Nah, you see, It's well known there was an issue with American cops before the BLM movement. And there is plenty of evidence to justify such a movement. Not so for flat earthers and the KKK which one is based off false science and the other just plain ole racism & bigotry.
01:04am 16/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2938 posts
Nah, you see, It's well known there was an issue with American cops before the BLM movement.


Well you start producing some data vash.

Not so for flat earthers and the KKK which one is based off false science and the other just plain ole racism & bigotry.


So you don't criticise NAMBLA. Interesting, very interesting. Speaks volumes doesn't it.
07:33am 16/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23892 posts
is it a benefit if (say) a synagogue gets increased police protection because of Nazis?


no. police focus at particular locations that present a high of civil disturbance. I would expect they are doing it because of some credible evidence of threat. If it is a general policy of police to patrol synagogues without specific intelligence then that is just wasting taxpayer's funds.

on the topic of identity politics and police patroling religious establishments get a load of this!

cops shooing away journo from interviewing patrons in a public thoroughfare because she is right outside the mosque. totally ridiculous police intrusion due to complaints of the mosque management.
03:28pm 16/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5656 posts
Lauren Southern is loved by the alt right, so it has to be questioned immediately what happened when the cameras were off. People who aim to tarnish even the peaceful communities have little credibility.
Another strategy to cause hate against Muslims, furthering the cause of ISIS.
05:41pm 16/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23893 posts
What happened off camera!!?? The interviewees are literally saying they are not harassed. Vash, You are beyond help.
05:47pm 16/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5657 posts
Dude, do you realise everything that happens isnt recorded? Do you realise Lauren Southern has an agenda?
Who else did she speak to?
She aims to create controversy and push the alt right's cause, to paint Muslims in a worse light than they already are.

Do you think targeting Muslim communities with this sort of crap is going to help reduce Muslim extremism?
05:57pm 16/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23894 posts
Dude, do you realise everything that happens isnt recorded? Do you realise Lauren Southern has an agenda?
Who else did she speak to?
She aims to create controversy and push the alt right's cause, to paint Muslims in a worse light than they already are.

Do you think targeting Muslim communities with this sort of crap is going to help reduce Muslim extremism?


Vash is convicting on the footage that was not seen because there must be other bad stuff. There MUST BE. I WANT TO BELIEVE.

What questions do you think she asked which pushed an agenda?

Asking polite questions is a reason to commit terror attacks. You heard it here first folks.
07:44pm 16/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7776 posts
All Muslims should be encouraged to leave Islam. They need our help.

08:01pm 16/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3337 posts
tldr that video, some religious people realise religion might be a work of fiction, shocking!

I agree though, all the religious should be encouraged to leave their religion.

08:05pm 16/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26153 posts
I agree though, all the religious should be encouraged to leave their religion.
Why?

(honest question)
03:46am 17/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2939 posts
Why Not?

Vash your silence on NAMBLA is deafening. out of flat-earthers and NAMBLA you chose to go with criticising flat-earthers. very interesting.
07:17am 17/12/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
885 posts
Good news. Eddie Obieds b***** didn't win her seat, AND Austria now has a far right govt.
11:39am 17/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5658 posts
Vash is convicting on the footage that was not seen because there must be other bad stuff. There MUST BE. I WANT TO BELIEVE. What questions do you think she asked which pushed an agenda? Asking polite questions is a reason to commit terror attacks. You heard it here first folks.


Phew boy the dumb doesnt let up.

In May 2017, Southern took part in an attempt organized by the identitarian group Génération identitare to block the passage of an NGO ship, the Aquarius (co-owned by SOS Mediterranée and Doctors without Borders), which was leaving Sicily to start a search-and-rescue mission for ship-wrecked migrants off the shores of Northern Africa. Claiming that the goal of the activists "was to stop an empty boat from going down to Libya and filling up with illegal migrants", Southern was briefly detained by the Italian Coast Guard. NGO ships often rescue migrants and refugees, who disembark from Libyan shores on unsafe makeshift rafts, and bring them to Sicily for medical treatement


Much like Milo, a person of shining character. You sure know how to pick em' Infi.

Oh yes, those questions were very polite. And funny how in the way the video was released, and depicted in a way to paint Muslims in a bad light. Like they need more of that.
Her agenda immediately brings into question what happened off camera, especially considering her character & other political beliefs which push for bigotry & controversy. There is no innocent, polite intent to figure out how the Muslim community thinks that is going on here.
01:23pm 17/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23895 posts
I don't think it painted the interviewees in a poor way. I think it painted the Mosque management and the police in a poor way because they were being d****.

Edit: Furthermore she wasn't doing anything wrong. She was on a public street.

I have no problem with NGOs picking up illegal economic migrants - as long as they are being returned to their point of origin. But people smuggling, that's illegal yo.
01:59pm 17/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3338 posts
Recently I'd been more in the agnostic carriage of the train fpot, and I'd resolved to myself that people can have their religion as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else or detriment society.

However I think Jefferies hits the nail on the head. The harsh reality is that the religious are holding the human race back in a wide range of very significant ways. Not to mention continuing to be a major source of all sorts of massive negatives for society, from various types of discrimination to our old friends hatred and violence, and of course all the way over to gross corruption and exploitation on grandiose scales. That's without even going into the fundamental philosophical issue with most monotheistic religions, which is that they are intrinsically oppression orientated death cults. How does that reconcile with the future of humankind? It doesn't. Let alone the fact that they're just a poor fiction of our own making to help us make sense of our reality.

So imho we need to move to either a) religion being properly curtailed in power, and regulated, so that it can't do all the horrible things it does, or b) move away from religion entirely.
07:17pm 18/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23898 posts
The religious that fostered the enlightenment, or the religious that developed constitutional democracies or the religious that fostered the industrial revolution? Not clear which one you are referring to.
07:40pm 18/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7777 posts
Modern society has no need for organised religion anymore
08:32pm 18/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39382 posts
The religious that fostered the enlightenment, or the religious that developed constitutional democracies or the religious that fostered the industrial revolution? Not clear which one you are referring to.
it's not? but surely we can agree it's pretty clear which ones he's NOT referring to (e.g., if they've been dead for centuries they're probably not who he's referring to)
08:47pm 18/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3339 posts
Hmm I think it was kinda obvious, so a rather lazy point infi. Yeah I'm referring to now, as in the modern era. I'm sure there's some exceptions to the rule (the Jesuit priests are notable), but I think it a fairly agreeable notion that religion as a whole is no longer championing the concepts of rationality, democracy, liberty and technological progress. There's been somewhat of a reversal in comparison to the early centuries where religious scientists helped usher in the enlightenment. Many are in fact bastions of antiquated discrimination and oppression. Whilst the modern religious belief system is posited as in direct competition with science.
09:28pm 18/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23899 posts
The point being made (and obtusely missed) is that religion is not incompatible with science ( just with new age progressive social science - which is not science by the way) .
09:40pm 18/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3340 posts
I agree religion doesn't have to be incompatible with science. That's not really the point I'm discussing. The point is that religion has become incompatible with science and many other aspects of our modern world, nor is it showing much sign of change. I wouldn't agree it's only progressive social science that religion has become incompatible with (which seems a dubious and conservative politics motivated aspect), but fundamental science - the classic example is evolution. So I'd say it's your point that's rather obtuse infi, as is your mum. ;)
10:36pm 18/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23901 posts
I am not a religious person, I don't dwell too much on it. The new Dan Brown book (yes, I know they are viewed as trashy) Origin gets you thinking about it.

According to Eugenie Scott, Director of the US National Center for Science Education, "In one form or another, Theistic Evolutionism is the view of creation taught at the majority of mainline Protestant seminaries, and it is the official position of the Catholic church".[2]
Hmmmm.

I think religion lets itself down with arbitrary rules which can affect a normal life lived using all its technological benefits e.g. refusing blood transfusions.

Moreover the practicality of banning religion? Humans have indulged religious beliefs since consciousness occurred... Should governments have the power the suppress that?
10:45pm 18/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39383 posts
The point being made (and obtusely missed) is that religion is not incompatible with science ( just with new age progressive social science - which is not science by the way) .
I agree that religion doesn't have to be compatible with science as long as you ignore the bits of religion that are obviously not compatible with science which leaves... what?
11:33pm 18/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23902 posts
All the stuff dealt with by science.
11:39pm 18/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39384 posts
There's a Sam Harris podcast on this exact topic which is an interesting discussion that looks at it in more detail (both philosophically and scientifically I guess).
12:08am 19/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26158 posts
So can a good poster please try and show me how Trump's tax reform that passed today isn't just a cynical attempt to loot the country for his own personal benefit and for the benefit of the already wealthy?
10:14pm 20/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5659 posts
Direct your eyes to the stock market activity, all is well.
11:06pm 20/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23903 posts

https://www.investopedia.com/news/trumps-tax-reform-what-can-be-done/

good summary here. in short 80% of american individuals get a tax cut. discounted rate for repatriation of offshore company profits. reduced company tax rate. unemployment is already at 4.1% so this should be a growth and take home pay bonanza.

it's a lot better than just sitting on one's hands and saying "I was in government once" exhales smoke "it's a tough racket".
01:40pm 21/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7778 posts
Let's make Australia egalitarian again - less FUIGM ( f** u I got mine)

03:46pm 21/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23904 posts
Sounds like "f*** you I want yours. "
03:55pm 21/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7779 posts
wow infi - so disappointed in you bro.

F*** an economy with high housing for the few and we all suffer eventually.

04:54pm 21/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23905 posts
What you fail to realise is if you are planning a housing price revolution, then there will be massive winners and losers. I guess to the losers you would say "f*** you"?

What is your actual proposition? People come in with ideas like communism sounds great, but there is no actual practical way to implement it, same goes for making housing affordable.

People have their life savings tied up in this stuff so they should lose half? To accommodate your personal belief that housing is too expensive?
05:01pm 21/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7781 posts
Negative gearing is just socialism for property speculators.

Dude, "my personal belief"? Yes I personally believe its detrimental to the economy but... I'm obviously not alone.

Also I'm sick and tired of this being a binary issue / winners & losers. Why can't a solution be introduced incrementally? Or is our modern economy incapable of achieving this?

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 18:53:51 21/Dec/17
06:49pm 21/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23906 posts
Buying and selling real estate is a binary issue. It is the essence of binary. So what is your miracle solution to deliver lower real estate prices while not destroying people's built-up savings which are invested in real estate.
06:58pm 21/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7782 posts
I completely disagree that it is a binary issue. Did you watch the video?
07:03pm 21/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39386 posts
good summary here. in short 80% of american individuals get a tax cut. discounted rate for repatriation of offshore company profits. reduced company tax rate. unemployment is already at 4.1% so this should be a growth and take home pay bonanza.
What is your perspective on the approx (IIRC) 1.4 trillion with a t dollar deficit that these new tax rates will leave?
08:25pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18501 posts

The protestors want to emphasise isolated incidents of police violence but fail to address systemic poor black educational outcomes, higher black on black gun violence and drug involvement, higher black single parent families and the resultant poverty traps from black cultural and family issues.


Huh .. I thought they cited these as all interrelated contributing factors. Black lives matter, so do whites and everything in between. Any life matters.
08:47pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18502 posts

Modern society has no need for organised religion anymore


I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that conclusion.


What is your actual proposition? People come in with ideas like communism sounds great, but there is no actual practical way to implement it, same goes for making housing affordable.

People have their life savings tied up in this stuff so they should lose half? To accommodate your personal belief that housing is too expensive?


Ideally, the solution would involve a significant slowing of real estate capital growth, just enough to keep it competitive with reserve bank interest rate or whatever. At the same time wages growing at a faster rate than real estate value so in effect real estate and private house hold debt comes back to a reasonable level.
It is sort of doing that now, just that wages growth isn't really doing its part and real estate speculation keeps getting in the way.
It's kind of like the free market wants to do this, but can't because of government interventions such as negative gearing, etc distorting the market.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 20:58:13 21/Dec/17
08:52pm 21/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39387 posts
What is your actual proposition? People come in with ideas like communism sounds great, but there is no actual practical way to implement it, same goes for making housing affordable.
wait surely you think the government shouldn't be fiddling with the housing market at all and it should be left to the market to decide? I can't see how negative gearing fits into your "hands off, government!" philosophy
09:12pm 21/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23907 posts
yes i did watch the video and whilst the speakers make some valid points, they have not proven the central pointy which is: there is an affordability issue. The multiple of median price to salary may have increased but houses are still selling. If a product is unaffordable it does not sell. So if houses are selling but at higher prices, they are still affordable. There is no way to stop a herd bidding up a particular commodity; this can be seen amplified in the bitcoin mania. Either stay out of the market or buy a different crypto.

The other issue borne out of the video is that the affordability issue is constrained to the major cities, so if one really has a problem with paying astronomical prices just move to a regional city.

Totally disagree with cancelling negative gearing because that interferes with a fundamental rule of taxation that the costs of deriving assessable income are deductible. The proposal is: "all costs of of deriving assessable income are deductible except for interest expense on residential rental property, not commercial properties, not hotels, not business interest, not margin lending interest JUST residential rental property." Really it's a retarded distortion of investment risk.

Supply side: well addressing those issues like more land and developments is fine if you want bigger capital cities. I don't because look at the s***holes Sydney and Melbourne have become with lawless incompatible immigrants.

Also Basel III banking rules provide house mortgages as one step up in capital ratio from government bonds, so that is why banks lend a lot more on mortgages than businesses. They are making a fortune with very little capital allocated (proportionately). Blame Switzerland (where the rules come from).

Demand side: Again primarily immigrants flooding into Sydney and Melbourne, not much one can do about changing it unless the quota is changed.

Real estate is a binary issue because like share trading if you sell high and profit, someone somewhere else lost money because their money is now tied up in the aseet at the maxed out cap rate. If you sell low, you will be under water, but the buyer makes a killing on the higher cap rate. Real estate is not a win/win. One person gets paid straight away, the other has to recover the investment over a long period of time with all the risks of fluctuating asset price involved.

Promoting policies which would result in seismic shifts in prices is a very good way to destroy the sustainability of an industry and create a housing pipeline shortage. It is irresponsible.

But hey a group of buyers at a particular time will have gotten bargains, RIGHT?

I can't see how negative gearing fits into your "hands off, government!" philosophy


negative gearing is natural tax law. disallowing negative gearing would be govt interference. all tax law is govt interference though really, just want it to be a neutral as possible to minimise distortion of investment choices.
09:29pm 21/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39388 posts
Yeh I get your point. I guess I just see it as "more neutral" to have less regulatory interference and fewer laws, in my increasing desire to simplify all tax laws and do away with all accountants. It's hard to see it as anything but a benefit that allows wealthier people to hedge their bets in precisely the way you describe.

Risks of fluctuating asset prices is the price one has to pay for a market-driven economy! The more government fingers that are in the pie the more variables there are and thus the harder it is for normal people to understand and manage. WHY AM I SAYING YOUR LINES
10:07pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3344 posts
WHY AM I SAYING YOUR LINES


hey you're agreeing with the pro-poverty guy these days nice. probably because of all that moderate sensibility you have

The multiple of median price to salary may have increased but houses are still selling. If a product is unaffordable it does not sell. So if houses are selling but at higher prices, they are still affordable. There is no way to stop a herd bidding up a particular commodity; this can be seen amplified in the bitcoin mania. Either stay out of the market or buy a different crypto. The other issue borne out of the video is that the affordability issue is constrained to the major cities, so if one really has a problem with paying astronomical prices just move to a regional city.


out of touch

more land and developments is fine if you want bigger capital cities. I don't because look at the s***holes Sydney and Melbourne have become with lawless incompatible immigrants.


bigot

Basel III banking rules provide house mortgages as one step up in capital ratio from government bonds, so that is why banks lend a lot more on mortgages than businesses. They are making a fortune with very little capital allocated (proportionately). Blame Switzerland (where the rules come from).


fool. they are making a fortune based on borrowers capacity to repay and banks with half a brain have cleaned up their books in huge ways since gfc. business lending compared to housing as portfolio %age has about as much to do with their capital requirements as it would for business lending by most other institutional investors

Real estate is a binary issue because like share trading if you sell high and profit


Real estate is HOUSING used by PEOPLE of a society to LIVE. people deserve an economic/social/cultural human right to shelter and when 70% of our society are literally living paycheck to paycheck due to things like low financial literacy maybe the problem isnt swiss basel laws on capital requirements and 'unfair advantages of banks in investing' nor 'people trying to take away my right to profit in the housing market by claiming losses on my 20th property' but a fatal flaw in unfettered market capitalism/neoliberalism on yet another fundamental human right
12:39am 22/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5660 posts
Infi showing that true capitalist spirit we all love, furthering the cause for it's continued existence. Housing is a business opportunity. It's function is to create profit for me and others who worked so hard to gain the capital to invest in them, and continue to profit from. I'm up to my 12th investment property now!
People who can't afford them should move to regional areas where there are no jobs.

People like Infi forget, what keeps a city running isn't just the lawyers & business owners, it's the workers who earn below the national average wage, postal workers, garbage collectors, supermarket workers, the list goes on.
So if those people cannot afford a house in a city, where does that send the economy eventually?

Do we want our economy to rely so heavily on housing investments?

The 'socialist' leader of NZ gets it. Cut foreign ownership of housing. Reduce investment incentives. Housing should not be a luxury, even in the city. Its a necessity to live as is water & food. We keep prices of water & food down, why not housing? Because we can't have them investors losing money.
01:03am 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23908 posts
houses are selling, they are affordable. they may not be at the price YOU think is fair but someone else likes the price. the proposition is that housing prices should be cheaper. if you want them cheaper, then create fewer buyers. lower immigration. it's not the natural birth rate that is driving demand. affordability complaints (govt should do something!) also come from the pro immigration open borders crowd mind you.

when houses aren't selling, the sellers will be stuck. why? because their prices are too high, they are unaffordable at this point. once you wrap your mind around this basic concept you will start making progress. until then blame the government and feel frustrated.
01:22am 22/12/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26159 posts
Houses are selling so they must be affordable is a classic infi dumbism.

What is your perspective on the approx (IIRC) 1.4 trillion with a t dollar deficit that these new tax rates will leave?
You forgot to answer that one.
05:38am 22/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2940 posts
fool. they are making a fortune based on borrowers capacity to repay and banks with half a brain have cleaned up their books in huge ways since gfc. business lending compared to housing as portfolio %age has about as much to do with their capital requirements as it would for business lending by most other institutional investors


One of the main ways the books were cleaned up post-GFC was ensuring deposit-taking banks observed the correct capital requirements. Glorious.

Real estate is HOUSING used by PEOPLE of a society to LIVE. people deserve an economic/social/cultural human right to shelter and when 70% of our society are literally living paycheck to paycheck due to things like low financial literacy maybe the problem isnt swiss basel laws on capital requirements and 'unfair advantages of banks in investing' nor 'people trying to take away my right to profit in the housing market by claiming losses on my 20th property' but a fatal flaw in unfettered market capitalism/neoliberalism on yet another fundamental human right


Watching someone who insists everyone should defer to mental health professionals when regulating their alcohol consumption (because not drinking the 57th beer requires professional medical intervention) talk about economics when they are obviously and badly economically illiterate is one of the great joys of this forum.

Cut foreign ownership of housing.


Look forward to you calling Vash a bigot on this basis.

Speaking of vash.

Nearly a week and you still haven't criticised the North American Man Boy Love Association. Based on the reasoning that if you don't criticise something (you know how you do repeatedly to me over trump) you must not have a problem with them seems like vash is a-ok with NAMBLA.

Houses are selling so they must be affordable is a classic infi dumbism


If it's so dumb, when are they actually affordable? What's the measure? There is still significant activity in the market and the vast majority of it is domestic. There are a lot of Australians who don't agree they can't afford it.
07:05am 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23909 posts
Houses are selling so they must be affordable is a classic infi dumbism


Note how he didn't put an alternative criteria. Sounds like the typical whinging Aussie that can't get a sweet house for 3x wages like in the good old days.

What is your perspective on the approx (IIRC) 1.4 trillion with a t dollar deficit that these new tax rates will leave?


I think that unless this generates some quick GDP growth it could place USA in a spot of bother with bond yields going up. It's great cutting taxes but I would also like to see USA cut some spending.
10:03am 22/12/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18503 posts

houses are selling, they are affordable.


Depends on what you mean by affordable.

With very low interest rates, perhaps. Ratchet that up a point or two and for many, many people it suddenly becomes non-affordable.

You know as well as I and many here, that there are likely many, many people who have purchased an 'affordable' home without fully realising what that will cost when (some probably do realise but see it as an 'if' not 'when') interest rates do go up.

You must also have a level of understanding of the problem of our unprecedented private household debt due to these 'affordable' houses and how that impacts on significant, fundamental, economically strengthening behaviours such as ... spending.

So perhaps the houses are, for now, affordable to the individual .. however I'd argue they are not affordable to the nation as a whole. That a significant portion of Australia is suffering from ridiculously expensive real estate.

Can a person afford to smoke cigarettes every day? Perhaps financially they can, from the perspective of their health though .. f*** no.. Well a small few can, but the majority nope.
10:16am 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23910 posts
With very low interest rates, perhaps. Ratchet that up a point or two and for many, many people it suddenly becomes non-affordable.


adults are making these decisions every day when they put a new couch on A Mart interest free finance, or put clothes on Afterpay, or put a holiday on credit card.

Is the prevalence of private debt the lender's fault or the borrower's fault? Who makes the decision to incur the debt?

if the market is allocating more debt to borrowing for real estate two things can be concluded:

1. banks see it as a safe risk (thousands of small parcels of relatively low risk default (low unemployment, high individual importance) vs lending large parcels to business (subject to consumer/market whims/higher capital allocation ratio).

2. buyers still see value in paying higher prices for the assets.

And your observation about interest rates is also very important. A long period of record low interest rates means the market is comfortable locking in to long term large mortgage commitments. The interest rate markets are not predicting huge movements in the medium term (1% over the next 2 years) - but the US tax cuts could change all that if inflation or bonds start move up.

It is normal for the multiple of assets to increase against low interest rates and housing affordability is not a national crisis. But it sure is a BBQ stopper. May be worth a Beetoota article.
12:23pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5661 posts
can't get a sweet house for 3x wages like in the good old days.


And this doesn't concern you? Wages are flatlining everywhere. House prices continue to rise. The world economy is recovering but wages are not.
Everyone who cant afford to live in the city need to move to regional cities? So what about all those below average wage workers that keep the city running?
01:26pm 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23911 posts
wages are flat and so is inflation so purchasing power remains the same. but if the market is bidding up the price of houses then people are factoring in longer periods of stability and earnings potential. increasing asset multiples indicate a buoyant market.
01:33pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5662 posts
How can purchasing power be the same when house prices are increasing much faster than the inflation rate? And also wage growth is below the inflation rate.
01:37pm 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23912 posts
wages growth and inflation are both approximately 2% p.a. what people choose to spend on and bias towards is their choice. House prices are increasing because buyers are choosing to incur more debt.
01:45pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5663 posts
Yeah but you didnt address the part that housing prices are increasing faster than wages & inflation, so how would buying power be the same?
01:53pm 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23913 posts
individuals are biasing towards housing and thus spending less on other things. (they are saying owning a house is more important than doing other things proportionately). look at your own pay packet. if you decide to save more money, or to spend a chunk of your pay one week on a TV, you're not going to say you're making less money, you just chose buy one big thing that week thus have less spare money to dispose.
02:01pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5664 posts
Theres only so much an individual can do to their budget to keep up with house price growth, especially when wages are flatlining.
So buying power isnt the same if you have to change your budget to keep up with house growth. You still have to pay rent, bills, food & water. Many people do not spend unnecessarily, which is actually really bad for economic growth.
We want people to have more money to spend in the economy, not squeezed as they go into deep debt to try to afford & keep a home.
02:07pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18504 posts
Infi does have a point. If people are buying houses still, then there is buying power there.

However,


but if the market is bidding up the price of houses then people are factoring in longer periods of stability and earnings potential.


Not necessarily. People can also be factoring in fear of rental price increases and rental market instability, pushing them to taking on more risk than what they may otherwise take.

It is their choice as you say, however it's not just a pull type motivation of owning a home that is involved, there is push as well.

Whilst you can say an individual is responsible for their actions, the science says otherwise. That peoples choices are far from conscious choice free of factors they are unaware of, specifically when it comes to social cognition.
Buying houses in a society has a heavy social cognitive aspect to it and thus such decisions cannot escape the cultural influences of a nation. Thus a person is not, and can not, be fully responsible for their choices.
This is where libertarian-type philosophy starts to falter. All individuals are responsible, to some extent, for the well-being (or lack thereof) of all the people they are in contact with directly or indirectly.

The emotional influence of owning a home is strong in Australia. People will have emotional forces driving their decisions to go into very high debt, there will be fears and hopes, expectations, guilt, shame...
These emotions will reduce peoples executive functions, lowering their capacity for rational thinking of outcomes free of emotional influence.

So people can suffer pretty strong emotional pain if they can't afford a house, that pain will have flow on effects. Those effects will negatively impact the economy of the nation as a whole.

So a question must be asked .. just how much of Australia's economy is being damaged by our high house prices.. not just the obvious extreme private house-hold debt, but the damage included with all the emotional pain that comes with such a situation.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 16:24:18 22/Dec/17
04:17pm 22/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2941 posts
How can purchasing power be the same when house prices are increasing much faster than the inflation rate?


Just for everyone playing at home Vash what is purchasing power?
05:56pm 22/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39389 posts
increasing asset multiples indicate a buoyant market.
just like with Bitcoin
07:25pm 22/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23915 posts
just like with Bitcoin


Except real estate is stable.
07:55pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9547 posts
And real-estate is a roof over peoples had and something that actually matters.

Bitcoin is as optional an investment as company shares, currency or mining commodities.

It is completely and utterly insane that we allow this to happen with housing, a basic requirement and expectation of anyone in a first-world country.
08:11pm 22/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7783 posts
^ It's not insane, it's "life savings", "natural tax law", "good govt interference"
08:26pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2174 posts

Don't forget capital gains tax discount is a super cool tax because it is super productive. It was gifted by the economic wizard jonnny howard.

Just like the new economic LNP wizards cutting penalty rates.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/penalty-rates-cut-linked-to-stalled-consumer-spending/news-story/66a047c963aca3d959b4144b430194f7


11:17pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40933 posts
i just love reading about all the super duper investors getting on bitcoin that have zero idea about bitcoin.

im hoping the crash bankrupts them all.
10:54am 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7785 posts
^ omg how dare you! what about their life savings!!!
02:36pm 23/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23916 posts
nautral tax law is my way of saying tax everything equally. do you honestly think punitively taxing one specific type of investment will end well?

that is why the GST was introduced to replace sale tax.
03:03pm 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7786 posts
When you talk about punitive tax regarding a particular asset class, what do you mean exactly and what are you assuming will happen?
03:14pm 23/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23917 posts
disallowing deductions for interest on residential investment, which was the ALP's proposal last election.
03:17pm 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7787 posts
The ALP won't win the next election unless they dump Shorten.
03:28pm 23/12/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23918 posts
The ALP won't win the next election unless they dump Shorten.


they are ahead by 10 points. i don't know a serious commentator who thinks they will lose.
03:31pm 23/12/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40934 posts
lets hope australia doesnt f*** it up!
05:34pm 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7788 posts
We can refer to serious commentators all day but until we get a week out from the election it's all just fluff.
07:21pm 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7790 posts
10:18am 27/12/17 Permalink
Vash
5665 posts
05:45pm 27/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2945 posts
Still haven't condemned NAMBLA Vash.
09:09pm 27/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39395 posts
Except real estate is stable.
real estate is "stable" because the government bends over backwards to keep it that way (something which you have been critical of in the past several times on this very topic!!??). It is such a carefully managed asset class it is practically socialist! Negative gearing being thrown in is a sweet little hack to allow wealthier people to at least be able to manipulate it a little bit to come out in front.

Arguably though that is not necessarily a bad thing because it probably helps drive construction & keeps the market a little more liquid. So I'm still on the fence about negative gearing; I just dislike it in principle because of the added complexity (again just following my simplicity == good mantra).

Scare quotes around "stable" because I'd argue nothing is stable if it is increasing in whole multiples over a short timespan. We'll see how stable it is if those meddling anti-free market commies at the Reserve start fiddling with interest rates!
09:16am 01/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7791 posts
09:35am 01/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9549 posts
I don't understand why we have negative gearing on residential housing, but don't have negative gearing on businesses properties. If it were allowed to be applied to personal income tax only, wouldn't having people be able to make more retail and commercial properties available drive business rents down, which would be all-round better for small business?
09:20am 02/01/18 Permalink
taggs
6536 posts
Pretty sure you can negatively gear commercial real estate, Raven.

Negative gearing is not real estate specific.

For example you can be negatively geared in equities if the dividend payments received are less than the interest payments on the loan used to purchase them.
11:38am 02/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39396 posts
I think taggs is right - my dad's office in Fort. Valley has had entire floors left unoccupied deliberately by the building owners/managers for a really long time (multiple years) with zero attempts to try to bring in new tenants. The working hypothesis is this is all part of some negative gearing structure that works for them somehow but I'd love to hear other ideas because it's been baffling him (& by extension, me) for years.
06:47pm 02/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23924 posts
I don't understand why we have negative gearing on residential housing, but don't have negative gearing on businesses properties. If it were allowed to be applied to personal income tax only, wouldn't having people be able to make more retail and commercial properties available drive business rents down, which would be all-round better for small business?


We do, but commercial property is less of an individual pursuit due to higher risk of vacancy and larger investment cost.

The working hypothesis is this is all part of some negative gearing structure that works for them somehow but I'd love to hear other ideas because it's been baffling him (& by extension, me) for years.


i can only surmise they are planning to redevelop so dont want to sign any long term tenants.
07:49pm 02/01/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2176 posts

Negative gearing isn't where it went wrong, this is where it went wrong FYI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_Australia

From 20 September 1999, the Howard Government discontinued indexation of the cost base and (subject to a transitional arrangement) introduced a 50% discount on the capital gain for individual taxpayers. Assets acquired before 21 September 1985 continued to be CGT-free. For assets acquired between 20 September 1985 and 20 September 1999, the taxpayer has an option of using indexation (up to the CPI as at 30 September 1999) or using the discount method. Also from 21 September 1999, small business CGT concessions were introduced (below), reducing tax on small business owners retiring, and on active assets being sold, and allowing a rollover when selling one active asset to buy another. The CGT discount is not available to companies and superannuation funds obtain a CGT discount of one-third.


08:36pm 02/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26164 posts
https://i.imgur.com/NBoeDmc.png

This is a real tweet. His open supporters are praising him for his strength. His closeted supporters are praising him for his ability to troll the left.

https://i.imgur.com/S5pNRVO.png

It's going to be an interesting year.
09:26pm 03/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39398 posts
09:51pm 03/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2946 posts
Oh I disagree trog. That tweet was the single greatest moment in diplomatic history.

It's got fpots panties in a scrunch so it's off to a good start. As for attacking a free press. That's pretty f*****g funny when CNN are literally tweeting Iranian revolutionary guard propaganda.

The protesters were killed after they failed to keep calm don't you know. Subtext for morons, don't upset god like Obama's nuclear deal.

Free press. Tee hee.
09:10am 04/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
886 posts

In local news..

A gang is a group of people, especially young people, who go around together and often deliberately cause trouble.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/gang

"What disappointed me as a community leader is to see a Prime Minister of our country trying to say these are 'African gangs' — these are the children of Australia," Mr Deng told ABC News Breakfast.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-03/african-migrants-face-unfair-stigma-as-gang-stoush-escalates/9300382

https://www.libertycampaign.org/images/immigration/apex.jpg

Scroll down for stats (facts): http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-02/street-gangs-are-a-problem-in-melbourne-police-admit/9297984

This is where Vash comes in with "rashishism"... "oh they are targeted by police", when it's widely known people have been getting off lightly due to "go soft on newcomers" justice. "Sudan" is not a race, and neither is "Kenya". Most likely a few whiteys in the "born in Sudan" crime statistics to prove it. It's about culture, not race or nation. The isolated crims within these groups have successfully got the snowball rolling. Much to the detriment of their law abiding relatives. Ahhhhh discrimination, it only takes a few selfish idiots to do so much harm to the innocents around them. Who will the innocents blame?.. I doubt it will be the "few selfish idiots"... it wiil be anyone who appears to discriminate against them. And the snowball gets bigger.


10:31am 04/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5666 posts
06:49pm 04/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9550 posts
Quick, someone post a screenshot taken on an 8K panel.
01:05pm 05/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26165 posts
If I was someone who loved free speech so much that I'd passionately defend the right for even literal nazis to have their say I would be super angry right now about how Trump is trying to block Wolff's book from publication. I'd be on here vigorously defending Wolff's right to criticise a sitting president, even if every single word in the book was a lie. Unless of course I was never really a fan of free speech and was instead using that as a smokescreen for my own toxic personality and terrible views and outlook. Then I would be dead f*****g silent hoping no one realises.
01:56pm 05/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2947 posts
If I was some one who cared about oppression of minorities to the point I'm worried about people buying passage on a boat might be confused with personal property, I'd be super angry about the fact that most major news papers have failed to condemn ongoing protests in Iran which have so far claimed 22 lives, seemingly for the sole reason a president they disagree with politically condemned them. I'd be f*****g irate that the prior president subordinated supporting similar protests to achieving a deal with a regime that had openly and consistently worked to undermine regional stability and is likely responsible for the Assad regime's crimes against humanity. Of course if I was just interested in virtue signalling on the internet and "ignoring" people who take me to task over my fundamentally hollow ethical ditribes I'd probably stay silent and hope nobody noticed.

That's just me though.
02:52pm 05/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7792 posts
Property Speculator Boganomics 101



04:54pm 05/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21454 posts
Lol what up donald, why so keen to silence the book if it all lies?
07:12pm 05/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26167 posts
He's so brave that instead of facing the press today he just screened a video of himself talking his usual blabber while be cowered in his office 30 metres away.
07:35pm 05/01/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4348 posts
10:23pm 05/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5667 posts
Heh PP's post is very telling, his god emperor isn't as great as he thought.
10:57pm 06/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26169 posts
I think the bottomless pit of cognitive dissonance is going to break the laws of physics and somehow become even more bottomless, folding in on itself to create an entity never before seen in the universe.
01:17am 07/01/18 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1323 posts
Its not a banger.
01:32am 07/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3344 posts
If even half the s*** in Wollf's book is true (and that seems contentious by most accounts), it's pretty telling. Although it's only really telling in that Trump is literally nothing more than a classic 80's business guy who lucked his way into the presidency, and most of the people around him are just a bunch of varying right-wing incompetents.

I don't see any other huge reveals? It actually makes all the other theories, from the grand Russian conspiracy to mental instability, etc, even harder to believe, imo. The truth is far simpler (and depressing), he's just an idiot real estate tycoon America was apathetic enough to let into power.

Thought this was a good excerpt: Donald Trump Didn’t Want to Be President

My favourite part is that South Park (season 20) totally called it.
03:19am 07/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5668 posts
10:54am 07/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2948 posts
still haven't condemned NAMBLA Vash. But hey at least you'd have voted for Trump to drum up support for left wing politics. You know while we are tossing physics breaking cognitive dissonance around

I think the bottomless pit of cognitive dissonance is going to break the laws of physics and somehow become even more bottomless, folding in on itself to create an entity never before seen in the universe.


Seeing as someone else wants to play failure to condemn signals enthusiastic support, fpot hasn't condemned NAMBLA either.

Guess that must mean fpot definately thinks pedophiles are an oppressed minority who have had their rights systematically denied to them. Guess it also explains why he is silent on the Iranian protests while trump managed to get it right. Funny how UK Labor can't be sure how the bad guys are in this and Corbyn took at least $20,000 from the regime. Man of the people that Corbyn.

But I'll play. If you want to know what I think Trump should have done about the book. The answer is nothing. the example below shows why it will amount to nothing and drawing attention to it just drags it out.

But if you want my views of Trumps position on free speech, I'm less worried about a salacious idiot author getting sued for libel than proposed reforms to libel laws. But fpot didn't condemn that. So I guess he is perfectly fine with relaxing libel requirements. because failure to condemn is support. Maybe you can call me racist and drop cognitive dissonance again. It makes you sound like you aren't totally retarded.

Viper here is everything you need to know about wolfes book.

He claims whitehouse staff made a makeshift gorilla channel for Trump to watch all day. As for trump not really wanting to win, It's fairly difficult to believe.

Finally from the author himself.

Many of the accounts of what has happened in the Trump White House are in conflict with one another; many, in Trumpian fashion, are baldly untrue. These conflicts, and that looseness with the truth, if not with reality itself, are an elemental thread of the book. Sometimes I have let the players offer their versions, in turn allowing the reader to judge them. In other instances I have, through a consistency in the accounts and through sources I have come to trust, settled on a version of events I believe to be true.


A chronicle of the trump white house *the author himself isn't sure is true*. Nailed it.

Free press hey.
11:11am 07/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21456 posts
Yep trump should have ignored it but everything he is doing makes him seem guilty as f*** of whatever the book is saying
11:20am 07/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2949 posts
Pointless public fights is the way he rolls.
11:21am 07/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7793 posts
It's all Hillary's fault.
11:25am 07/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5669 posts
You see, PP, your language is a dead give away with your support for Trump. It isn't just the lack of criticism, it's the attempt to defend the undefensible.
12:20pm 07/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
887 posts

Quick, go out and buy the book. I'm reading a book about Roswell at the moment. I imagine both are similar reads.

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Fury-Inside-Trump-White/dp/1250158060


12:54pm 07/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2950 posts
You see, PP, your language is a dead give away with your support for Trump. It isn't just the lack of criticism, it's the attempt to defend the undefensible.


Any time you want to condemn NAMBLA vash. See it's not just the lack of criticism, it's the fact you said if a group exists it must have a legitimate goal. So that's not a lack of criticism that's an implicit endorsement.
02:36pm 07/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21457 posts
Trying to get the book banned through a court order isn't a pointless public fight
04:45pm 07/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39401 posts

Quick, go out and buy the book. I'm reading a book about Roswell at the moment. I imagine both are similar reads.

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Fury-Inside-Trump-White/dp/1250158060


ALSO SOMEONE ONCE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE LOCH NESS MONSTER SO ALL BOOKS ARE BULLS*** BUT I WILL LINK TO THIS BOOK IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY FAIR GO ATTITUDE BUT JUST DONT FORGET, ALL BOOKS ARE LIES
09:42pm 07/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23925 posts
Trump's Art of the Deal explains one of his key rules: Never be someone else's b**** - retaliate and get revenge.

Once I heard of the book I expected him to go scorched earth on this journo. The journo has been fairly well discredited anyway. Trump didn't need to do it but it feels good.
10:55pm 07/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26170 posts
Yeah Trump seems like a strong switched on guy. Pretty sure everything will be fine.
11:28pm 07/01/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40951 posts
Trump's Art of the Deal explains one of his key rules: Never be someone else's b**** - retaliate and get revenge.


anyone who actually thinks and lives like this is a moron.
06:11am 08/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2951 posts

Trying to get the book banned through a court order isn't a pointless public fight


Well it is. It requires a public hearing and only increases the publicity surrounding the book.

But moreover he is entitled to set the record straight. The reason libel is a permissable intrusion into freedom of speech is that the truth is a defence. So it actually sits quite comfortablly with the reason for the first amendment. But again I don't expect fpot to be able wrap his pretty little noodle around that. He can't call it cognitive dissonance or racism so we've left the realm of intelligibility for him.

And just to recap the author himself (who holds himself out as a "journalist") prefaces the book with not being able to verify the claims of the book.

I'm not going to pretend that abuse of process doesn't happen in relation to libel but when the author himself flat out states he can't verify the contents of the book it seems like it warrants a closer look RE: Libel.
09:24am 08/01/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18505 posts
Look the book and everything in it is obviously a lie, except for the parts that aren't, but that doesn't matter because Trump is like, very smart.
10:08am 08/01/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18506 posts

He's so brave that instead of facing the press today he just screened a video of himself talking his usual blabber while be cowered in his office 30 metres away.


That is actually a reasonable thing for Trump to do. That way he is less likely to impulsively blab something inane. He should do this more often really.
10:10am 08/01/18 Permalink
SwissCM
Gold Coast, Queensland
282 posts
anyone who actually thinks and lives like this is a moron psychopath.
04:27pm 08/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26171 posts
Both.
04:45pm 08/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23926 posts
geez if we banned all morons and psychopaths from getting into politics who would run?
05:06pm 08/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39403 posts
Greens
ahahahahah
06:23pm 08/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26172 posts
Greens ahahahahah
Beat me to it!
06:59pm 08/01/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2177 posts
Blackouts in Sydney, maybe we should pour some coal on it?

Also we can't run a train network either apparently.
09:13am 10/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7794 posts
^ They need Elon Musk's battery station.
09:20am 10/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39405 posts
did you see the storm that smashed Sydney yesterday? it was epic. Presumably most of the power outages were lines down etc. A battery won't help much. Coal might help, if you use it to build a shelter to protect power lines.
09:27am 10/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23928 posts
need coal to build batteries and wind farms. without coal there ain't no solar.
11:19am 10/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39406 posts
Yep, I think we're all in agreement that the only reason to use fossil fuels today is to work to make them obsolete!
02:40pm 10/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
888 posts
Are there such things are 2nd and 1st world s***holes?

I lived in Lithgow for a year, I thought it was a bit of a s***hole.

Anyone lived/visited any s***hole towns?
11:26am 13/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7795 posts
To quote Paul Keating "Australia is the arse end of the world."

But our houses are expensive so who the f*** cares.
01:20pm 13/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5673 posts
On my visits to Cape York i suppose you could define various towns there as s***holes, like Hopevale & Lockhart river. Mostly due to lack of infrastructure & remoteness. Lovely people though.
Couldn't believe the amount of stray dogs in Lockhart river. Incredibly sad seeing dying pups on the roadside.

I've visited Lithgow a bunch of times but never lived there, what makes it a s***hole?
01:47pm 13/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2952 posts
hey fpot. Seeing as you're ignoring me.

Sina Ghanbari who took off her hijab in protests in Iran 'committed suicide' in prison. If I was like you know totes into minority rights. I probably wouldn't need prompting to talk about that. Unless I really really really really really really hated that trump called it right in the first few days.

If I was a cowardly piece of s*** who never does anything over and above virtue signalling on an internet forum about a particular political view I'd probably hope that this all goes away without me having to hitch my flag to the pole.

If I was a piece of s*** lead around by popular left opinion I'd be outraged about s***holes and not care that a woman was murdered by a government for not wearing the right cloths.

*edit*

Toxic. did I mention toxic? in the middle of a vacuous self righteous screed its important to tell the target they are toxic. You're toxic fpot. so are you phooks. You're just dumb vash.

Hey vash did you see that footage of Venezuelans so well taken care of by socialism they were clubbing cattle to death with rocks to get enough to eat? You can google it.
04:56pm 13/01/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2178 posts

I've visited Lithgow a bunch of times but never lived there, what makes it a s***hole?


There's a bit of ice used in the mountains, some people might have run into users which would make for a bad experience.

Funny how PP never mentions european social democracies and names despotic developing countries as the standard for socialism.

What about all the developing countries which have embraced capitalism, I suppose there's no problems there?
07:15pm 13/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26177 posts
Funny how PP never mentions european social democracies and names despotic developing countries as the standard for socialism.
It's because everything he says is weak as piss and he knows that if he concedes even the slightest bit of ground on one of his arguments it will all begin to unravel. Standard modus operandi of an alt-right slave to the Twitter bots.
07:28pm 13/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2953 posts
Funny how PP never mentions european social democracies and names despotic developing countries as the standard for socialism.


How about you start rattling off the socialist paradises in Europe. The more socialist a country is in Europe the more reliant it is either on the EU central bank or natural resources. Hardly the triumph of the workers promised by socialism is it? In fact the best place for tradies in Europe is Germany which has been lead by a neoliberal government for the last decade.

Funny how your argument dissolves when confronted with facts. Funny

It's because everything he says is weak as piss and he knows that if he concedes even the slightest bit of ground on one of his arguments it will all begin to unravel


Evidently stronger than your commitment to women's rights you pathetic coward. Call them racist you pathetic moron. It's like an argument except easier.
08:45pm 13/01/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2179 posts
Natural resources. Unlike Australia?

F*****g lol.
09:27pm 13/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2954 posts
Is that a point. It looks like you're trying to make a point.

A socialist country which is successful on the basis of commodity markets is hardly a pinup child for the wonders of socialism.

Oh and didn't stop the V word from f*****g it up. F*****g lol should follow

But keep on pluggin champ.
09:34pm 13/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39415 posts
Are there such things are 2nd and 1st world s***holes?
I know you are asking this rhetorically to make whatever completely bizarre talking head point that is coming down the wire from the Rodina, but the USA is a 1st world s***hole
09:36pm 13/01/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4353 posts
ahh that's a great use of a novel metaphor right thur
10:30pm 13/01/18 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1326 posts
Whats the opposite of s***-hole?

Iceland
Tibet
Brisbane
02:24am 14/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23929 posts
Funny how PP never mentions european social democracies and names despotic developing countries as the standard for socialism.


Socialism is the control of the means of production by central government through threat of violence. Northern European countries heavily rely on free market capitalism and private property. Using them as examples pf socialism would be very wrong - as they in no way represent Vash type full retard socialism.

That's Venezuela - a weapons grade purist form of socialism - price controls, control of key commodity producers, rampant inflation.
03:42pm 14/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5674 posts
That's Venezuela - a weapons grade purist form of socialism - price controls, control of key commodity producers, rampant inflation.


In Venezuela, most businesses are privately owned and for profit, the wage-labor relationship is still in place, and capital accumulation still drives economic activity.
Socialism is social ownership and democratic control of the means of production, which isn't the case in Venezuela.

Turkey is proof that any economic system can fall from democracy to a dictatorship, and there needs to be appropriate controls in place to prevent that.
05:43pm 14/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2955 posts

In Venezuela, most businesses are privately owned and for profit, the wage-labor relationship is still in place, and capital accumulation still drives economic activity.


There isn't a single factually correct thing about that sentence. Venezuela is a completely centralised economy. And it's people are starving to death, because someone yet again failed to get socialism right.

Turkey is an example of a theocrat imposing a corrupt theocracy. Not an economic failure.
08:36pm 14/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7796 posts
"Real racism is quiet, it's subtle"

10:51pm 14/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5676 posts
Venezuela is a completely centralised economy.


Factually incorrect. A major part of its economy is privatized, and therefor, decentralised. Chavez seized various commodity based businesses but not the entire means of production. Tell me how private entities exist in a centralised, Socialist economy?

Any Government that decides to put all its eggs in one basket, that is, public investment mostly on oil, and that price crashes, deserves to be kicked out. It's no hit on Socialism.

By the way, people are starving in Capitalist economies too. In the Philippines, one in three children are malnourished.
02:04pm 15/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23931 posts
Just watching Vice last week on Venezuela. Their Oil company produces one third the oil it did before socialism, and has 3 times the employees.
02:38pm 15/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2956 posts

Factually incorrect.


Well it isn't.

Chavez seized various commodity based businesses but not the entire means of production.


Yeah by various commodity based businesses you mean all oil and farms. So all he did was centralise energy and food. A tiny insignificant part of any economy I'm sure we can all agree.

It's no hit on Socialism.


Yeah it is Vash. Centralising production is the goal of socialism. You've been confused about this for a long time now. The bits he centralised are now failing catestrophically which also manages to account for the key elements needed to sustain a society (or energy and food).

You're just saying wasn't really socialism again. Micheal Moore, Bernie Sanders and Noam Chomsky all disagree with you sunshine.

As for the Philippines, we've been down this road. The Philippines perform better on any development metric than Venezuela. Because there is some poverty in the Philippines does not make it a valid comparison to a country are literally roaming the hills looking for animals to kill to ward off mass starvation and therefore place capitalism on a similar footing as socialism.
05:06pm 15/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5678 posts
Spin it how you want PP. It's no surprise you're a fan of Trump. Facts aren't your strong suit.
Fact: Venezuela has a major private industry, and always has. Hence, Not Socialism.

'some' poverty in the Philippines is a massive understatement. Visited recently?
05:29pm 15/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2957 posts
Fact: Venezuela has a major private industry, and always has. Hence, Not Socialism


It really is very funny you accuse people of not being good with facts. You start producing some data Vash. There is no serious question as to whether Venezuela is a socialist country. They straightforwardly implemented totally orthodox Marxist ideas. The vast majority of their GDP is generated through state owned and run enterprise.

I didn't understate poverty in the Philippines vash I said it is more developed and provides for more of its citizens than Venezuela. Again this is uncontroversial.

Quick bring up trump. You can call me alt-right as well. Doesn't mean Venezuela isn't a socialist country whose means of production were centralised and now nobody has enough to eat, like every other time it was tried.
05:41pm 15/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9554 posts
11:09am 16/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
889 posts
I know you are asking this rhetorically to make whatever completely bizarre talking head point that is coming down the wire from the Rodina, but the USA is a 1st world s***hole



Parts of Lithgow are s***holes.

Parts of Sydney are s***holes

Parts of Chicago are s***holes. Check out this graphic for Chicago.

https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http://armored-column.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Screenshot-2017-02-05-22.04.22.png&amp;sp=b3a154552dd875e0e174dbd79012d6b9.

Parts of many places are s***holes.

Most of some places are s***holes.
10:37am 17/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5680 posts
Trump spoke to “Fox & Friends” in 2013 and was asked who would be fired during a government shutdown, as shown in a clip posted by "Morning Joe." “Well, if you say who gets fired it always has to be the top,” Trump said. “I mean, problems start from the top and they have to get solved from the top and the president’s the leader. And he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.” He said that further down in history, “when they talk about the government shutdown, they’re going to be talking about the president of the United States, who the president was at that time.” “They’re not going to be talking about who was the head of the House, the head the Senate, who’s running things in Washington,” Trump said. “So I really think the pressure is on the president,” he added.
12:49am 21/01/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4356 posts
if you need a break from reading along on this thread, there’s an enjoyable interview on Netflix

It’s A Whole New Ball Game Now
02:35am 21/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26182 posts
Trump spoke to “Fox & Friends” in 2013 and was asked who would be fired during a government shutdown, as shown in a clip posted by "Morning Joe." “Well, if you say who gets fired it always has to be the top,” Trump said. “I mean, problems start from the top and they have to get solved from the top and the president’s the leader. And he’s got to get everybody in a room and he’s got to lead.” He said that further down in history, “when they talk about the government shutdown, they’re going to be talking about the president of the United States, who the president was at that time.” “They’re not going to be talking about who was the head of the House, the head the Senate, who’s running things in Washington,” Trump said. “So I really think the pressure is on the president,” he added.
The Art of the Deal lol
05:48pm 21/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26183 posts
For anyone a tad confused about the shutdown situation -

https://i.imgur.com/Qa1i1RD.png
07:24am 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23940 posts
The funding bill required 60 Senate votes and the Republicans only have 51, so the Democrats blocked it. That cartoon is plain wrong. A basic search of Google News would have shown that.
01:11pm 22/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9558 posts
One could argue the republicans have blocked it by putting in too many s***** things that those voting against it don't believe are in the best interests of the people.

You know, like elected representatives are supposed to do.
01:58pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23941 posts
the republicans have blocked it by putting in too many s***** things


it was blocked because the Dems wanted to put in DACA amnesty for children of illegal arrivals. This is something which until very recently the Dems have never supported. The US Democrats have become an extreme left-wing parody of a political party.
02:35pm 22/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9560 posts
How the f*** is allowing kids who have no control over their parents actions to have access to medical services 'extreme left-wing'? I'd have just called denying healthcare access to kids 'extreme right-wing' but let's be honest, it has nothing to do with left or right wing and mostly whether or not you're a complete c***.
04:39pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23942 posts
simple, they are illegal immigrants. should the child of someone who received stolen goods be allowed to keep the stolen goods? it corrupts the process followed by legal immigrants. or don't countries control their borders anymore?

they should all be sent home and try again with the right papers. enter mexico illegally and you will go to jail.
04:47pm 22/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39430 posts
should the child of someone who received stolen goods be allowed to keep the stolen goods?
Do they need them to stay alive?
05:29pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23943 posts
Do they need them to stay alive?


that is a false argument. the same thing could be argued about a tourist who requires health care (they pay for it). illegal immigrants cannot be conferred the rights of legal immigrants and residents otherwise what is the point of following any immigration law?

Obama contravened the Constitution and existing immigration law to allow the DACA exemption. That is why Congress must now make a deal.

I am so thankful we have Peter Dutton protecting Australia's borders!
05:39pm 22/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26184 posts
simple, they are illegal immigrants. should the child of someone who received stolen goods be allowed to keep the stolen goods? it corrupts the process followed by legal immigrants. or don't countries control their borders anymore?
mmmm, that's one yummy hot take you got right there.

I follow a few twitters which are human focal points of the army of Russian twitter bots that are out there. The Trump is winning crew are pretty much relying on wholesale conspiracy theories now. Hilary Russian collusion, Obama placed wiretaps, a coordinated attack by news outlets to make Trump look bad when he is actually good etc etc. I'm guessing that's pretty much where you're at infi?

that is a false argument.
No it's not. You just don't want to play because it puts you in a position where you'll have to say well those children will just have to die to Make America Great Again and you're too much of a slippery little chicken s*** to own up to it.
05:40pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23944 posts
given the latest news from Washington is that the outcome of the Clinton email scandal was leaked in advance and that House Intelligence Committee members are urging the release of a memo detailing abuse of FISA warrants against the Trump transition team, who knows how smelly the swamp is there.

Trump is causing the Deep State and Washington hangers-on to scurry around like c***roaches. It is a pure joy to watch. The best show on TV.
05:50pm 22/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39431 posts
QUICK SAY SOMETHING ABOUT CLINTON

https://i.imgur.com/0gL9Cdz.gif
06:21pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23945 posts
Is that just a weak joke or do you actually not care/disbelieve the Clinton campaign's alleged ties to Russia Fake dossier, FUSION GPS, FISA abuse?

No it's not. You just don't want to play because it puts you in a position where you'll have to say well those children will just have to die to Make America Great Again and you're too much of a slippery little chicken s*** to own up to it.


It is false. Just because you unlawfully took something, it doesn't mean you get to keep it. Regardless the consequences. And yes if they were to have a life threatening condition their home country can pay for it.

It confounds me that the offspring of people who just show up illegally think they can abracadabra go full legit. It is the height off mental gymnastics that only screaming liberals can achieve.
07:53pm 22/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26185 posts
Hey guys have you seen this video called 'Loose Change'? It really makes you think.

edit:

It confounds me that the offspring of people who just show up illegally think they can abracadabra go full legit
They must be punished for their terrible crime of being born.
07:56pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23946 posts
A full blown Federal investigation initiated by the Justice Department tries to find a Trump Russian collusion and finds absolutely NOTHING - yet MSM and other Trump Derangement Syndrome sufferers persist.

Democratic Party gets caught with an actual dossier of fake news produced by a Russian smear company, which is linked to requests for illegal FISA warrants - and that is a wild conspiracy.

The mind boggles at the stuff people are willing to look past. The ridiculing comments such a fpot's are amazingly typical of the entire dismissive liberal media class. Fpot is coming along nicely.

They must be punished for their terrible crime of being born.


Not getting something you are not legally entitled to is not punishment. Punishment implies a worse off position - they never had the entitlement.
08:03pm 22/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26186 posts
Trump Derangement Syndrome. Yep I've seen the twitter bots pumping that one pretty hard.

Like I said, Trumpers are all in full blown conspiracy land at this point. Exactly and I mean exactly like 9/11 truthers. There's no reasoning people out of positions they haven't reasoned themselves into. The only question is when all of this bulls*** is finally over will you drop the bag or continue holding onto it.
08:17pm 22/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5681 posts
The mind boggles at the stuff people are willing to look past


The feeling is certainly mutual with what people like you look past in regards to Trump.
08:18pm 22/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2959 posts
What does DACA have to do with healthcare? DACA is an immigration policy based on the executive branches discretion to enforce laws in the most effective manner.

Its constitutional basis, which is dubious at best, is grounded solely on the idea children immigrants are less of a priority to deal with than adults.

That's the whole policy.


It has literally nothing to do with healthcare.

Fpot, what a funny little fellow. We are a year into the investigation into Russia and we have a guy pleading guilty to lying to the fbi about a drunken conversation about Russia in London.

Russian collusion did not happen.

But infi is the 9/11 truther.

So how about trump's doctor who was also Obama's doctor saying trump has shown no signs of mental instability.

I was right again. Form an orderly queue to apologize gents.
08:50pm 22/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39432 posts
Regardless the consequences.
What if the consequences were that it actually cost MORE taxpayer dollars to round up all these people and then send them back?! Or are you just drawing an ideological line in the sand here and no matter what it costs they must be gone?
11:21pm 22/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26187 posts
There's already precedent for that one with infi's unwavering support of offshore detention. Way more expensive than resettlement on the mainland but he gets to watch the browns suffer so it's worth it.

What's the difference between people with guns rounding people up and murdering them compared with people in suits signing pieces of paper and murdering them? The second a person dies because they've been denied what's considered a basic human right in every western civilisation in the world on the basis of their skin colour and/or country of origin how does the Trump administration not become a murderous regime? People are sitting around and going oh everything is okay - there are no death camps or summary executions. It's because there doesn't need to be anymore. It can all be done quietly and invisibly through legislative means. Best of all proponents can point at it and say hey, it's all good, because it's all completely legal.
11:33pm 22/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23947 posts
What if the consequences were that it actually cost MORE taxpayer dollars to round up all these people and then send them back?! Or are you just drawing an ideological line in the sand here and no matter what it costs they must be gone?


Well do we (they) have a border and immigration law, or is it just a sometimes kinda thing?

The second a person dies because they've been denied what's considered a basic human right in every western civilisation in the world on the basis of their skin colour and/or country of origin how does the Trump administration not become a murderous regime?


there are grouphugs, and then there are laws. it sounds like you are suggesting the US taxpayer pays healthcare for all regardless of legality or origin. maybe they should pay healthcare costs to mexico just to stop them coming over the border? it really is absurd listening to this inconsistent garbage. The laws are passed by Congress. Apply them to everyone. Equally. Free tissues for all affected.
11:34pm 22/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
466 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Abusive
Send Private Message
11:48pm 22/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2960 posts
So edgy! Watch as infi brazenly defends the law when it's helping him kill non-whites, but whinges like a little piss baby when it makes his life hard running his dad's business because he's a s*** manager and a complete dumb f***.


I think by "kill non-whites" you mean deport people to their country of origin.

These people aren't claiming refugee status, they are straightforward illegal immigrants.

And for the record, the Republicans have offered continued immunity so long as they don't then get to sponsor their families to come to the US ie ending chain migration. It's a sensible compromise. That was rejected.

These hysterical responses to even the most mundane acts of law enforcement are more than a little tedious. What's enjoyable, is you don't seem to be aware of how badly it's damaging your professed cause.

Hey trog what level of hysterical stupidity can fpot and friends get to before you'll display this reasoned moderation we've heard so much about and actually call fpot on his bulls***?
10:06am 23/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
890 posts
Who brings up colour and race? It's about nations and culture. If GroupX makes the argument be about colour, then GroupX is clearly drawing the correlation between colour and nation/culture. That is truly racist.

S***hole countries have white people too. These things are not about race or colour.

Also, Greens/Labor want more low-skilled migrants a year to boost population, more welfare hand-outs, less taxes for all, more public services, better pay and conditions for public servants, more funding for government employee run news outlets, more expensive (yet environmentally friendly) purchasing options, lower cost of living, more pensions, more free health car, AND more affordable housing at the same time. Apply logic to those expectations and then give to thought to "I wonder how their household budget works"... "Do they even have a budget?" and "Who do they blame when their life does not meet up to their expectations?"

It's pretty hard to have all these things, but they do sound very nice to offer them to the voters. Unfortunately this kind of stuff is financially unsustainable.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/91/d3/8b/91d38beee922a9106b6acc2d531e2fea--champagne-taste-on-a-beer-budget-quote-champagne-quotes.jpg
10:22am 23/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21477 posts
Hey trog what level of hysterical stupidity can fpot and friends get to before you'll display this reasoned moderation we've heard so much about and actually call fpot on his bulls***?


i was there a few posts ago
12:07pm 23/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23948 posts
identity politics talks ceaselessly about race and colour. You will see that every single one of fpot's posts is obsessed with race.

I mentioned equal application of the law for all which fpot found offensive. So he resorted to the sophistry of racism. Identity politicians hate equal treatment under the law, as they are all about pandering to special interests which can further their voting bloc. Every identity politics argument is laced with emotionally charged terms and slurs against the opponent - because when subject to scrutiny they just don't hold up - however if you don't agree, be prepared to be called: bigot, racist, homophobe, transphobe, Islamaphobe, sexist etc etc.
12:13pm 23/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
891 posts
If your're after A-political moderation here you wont find it. The obsession by a few small minds over what Trump eats for breakfast each day is an indication of the types of propaganda people subscribe too, and the culture that is fostered.
01:21pm 23/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39433 posts
Well do we (they) have a border and immigration law, or is it just a sometimes kinda thing?
Well that's what I was saying - in the US it has clearly all been done with a nod and wink for several decades. Too many institutions are too dependent on the availability of cheap Mexican labour (amongst other things) for there to have ever been a serious push back about it. Of course part of the problem is their hilariously woeful cash based economy which is responsible for so much of this labour law evasion - if the US wanted to get serious about enforcing any of the immigration laws (that they have always had) they could probably solve it in a minute by making their electronic payments system not be a complete joke and even half-assedly enforcing some of their tax laws so it's even /slightly/ hard for businesses and citizens to employ illegal labour.

I'm sure we've discussed this issue before and IIRC we actually agreed that stamping out the demand for illegal labour would have a dramatic effect on the number of "illegally" present economic immigrants, right?

Anyway I just see that issue as totally tangential to that of whether kids/young adults who magically appeared in the US and have spent a big chunk of their lives growing up there because of the above lax systems should be suddenly and dramatically ripped away from everything they know and dumped into what is to them probably a foreign (and possibly hostile) environment, when (in almost all cases) they've passed the most extensive tests ever - living in the country as a law abiding and productive citizen. For me it's totally easy to say "maybe some of these people should be allowed to stay" and a hardline attitude of "they all must leave regardless of any circumstance, including cost, humanitarian, whatever" seems unreasonable.

To use your analogy, if a parent steals some bread and feeds it to their starving kids, I don't think the bread should be forcibly taken away until we can make sure they're not going to literally die. But someone in my family tree was a convict because they apparently stole a loaf of bread, so I probably am not the best person to ask.

I find it staggeringly hard to believe that rounding up and exporting all these people combined with the cost of a government shutdown and all the time wasted by the associated blathering of the (generally moronic ) American aristocracy.

Anyway I'm trying to spend less time caring about what the Americans do to each other and (now I'm back) more time focusing on how we can improve Australia.
03:20pm 23/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23949 posts
And that is why the Art of the Deal will come into play.

The ultimate deal that will be cut - the only deal that will actually work - is amnesty for the existing children of illegals in exchange for terminating DACA, chain migration and fully funding the wall. But there is a process that must be played out, and far from being critical of the shutdown, it was a necessary part of a brinksmanship that is well established now.

You don't need to worry about Australia so much as we have Peter Dutton protecting us day and night - he's like Batman.
03:46pm 23/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39434 posts
it was a necessary part of a brinksmanship that is well established now.
Or, it's just his dumb strategy to pretend he's always winning and everything is part of his plan. Scott Adams goes on about it all the time. It's old and tired and seeing people pretend it's him actually getting stuff done is just getting wearying now (whereas before it was lightly entertaining mixed with a little "no sane person would do that and get away with it").

It's kind of tempting to start acting like this, right up until the point where you realise it would make you a lying sociopath and unless you have millions of dollars and can surround yourself with yesmen and sycophants all trying to get a piece of you, people would call you on that bulls*** more or less immediately.

A government shutdown is a hugely wasteful and expensive operation (I keep seeing photos of buildings with posters like "this federal facility is closed because of the government shutdown please try again later"); if this is his method for getting stuff done it is just the broken window fallacy in living colour.

(I learned about US budget reconciliation yesterday - I say "learned" but it was randomly mentioned on Twitter and I did a half-assed read about it. But basically the reason why the government is stopped is because they can't pass a budget. The reason they can't pass this budget is because Trump used the one-use-per-year Budget Reconciliation feature (allowing them to pass legislation with only 50 votes instead of the usual 60) to pass his tax cut bill.)

You don't need to worry about Australia so much as we have Peter Dutton protecting us day and night - he's like Batman.
Batman mostly operates at night... so that's not really like Batman. I'm still playing catchup to Australian politics so I'll concede that might be the only difference though.
04:22pm 23/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2961 posts
For me it's totally easy to say "maybe some of these people should be allowed to stay" and a hardline attitude of "they all must leave regardless of any circumstance, including cost, humanitarian, whatever" seems unreasonable.


This is not the position is it though.

Republican voters consistenly poll in favour of an amnesty in favour of those already in the US.

The concern is about stopping the issue from continuing, which will mean hard choices.

It's also about the associated chain migration.

It is perfectly reasonable to say that while these kids shouldn't be expelled for something that is no fault of their own, it is equally the case they don't deserve their entire extended family to stay in the US.

That's a perfect storm of perverse incentives for abuse.

Offers to the democrats have been made along these lines which are representative of mainstream American political thought and (to make this crystal clear) perfectly humain.


It is only dreary drama queens like fpot who contest this.

So point scored old boy.
09:07pm 23/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2962 posts
Chuck Schumer is backing down.

So remember how ending DACA would definitely kill babies.

Chuck Schumer is talking about killing babies.

See fpot/trog. This is why you being dumb c**** ultimately fails.

Nobody buys the hyperpartisonship.
Get ready to keep looking the fool, Russia will come to nothing, against trump
10:37pm 23/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7800 posts
Dude no need for the seeunexttuesday
10:55pm 23/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23950 posts
Or, it's just his dumb strategy to pretend he's always winning and everything is part of his plan. Scott Adams goes on about it all the time. It's old and tired and seeing people pretend it's him actually getting stuff done is just getting wearying now (whereas before it was lightly entertaining mixed with a little "no sane person would do that and get away with it").


So the 13 day Obama shutdown was....

The reason they can't pass this budget is because Trump used the one-use-per-year Budget Reconciliation feature (allowing them to pass legislation with only 50 votes instead of the usual 60) to pass his tax cut bill


the reason they can't pass the budget is because this deadline is being levered for an unrelated political issue, just like the Obama shutdown, where the Dems know they can make hay on a 60 vote threshold. That's politics, that's how s*** gets done, the same s*** gets pulled here in Oz. This is not astonishing, it is normal political process. Politics is an extremely inefficient and wasteful business.
09:30am 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39435 posts
So the 13 day Obama shutdown was....
... well I guess not really relevant to a conversation about whether it's OK to cast children into the wilderness for the sins of their parents? The regular failures of the American political system come as no surprise to me. (I was reminded the other day that if this happened in Westminster system it would be grounds for a new election!!)

You've making the ideological point that all these people should be removed from the US. But you're saying that because it's part of T's master plan, it's OK for them to negotiate on this topic and use it as leverage for some other stuff (perhaps because it's a necessary side effect of America's terribly broken two party democracy where every decision comes down to a coin flip of one or two politicians).

I guess I'm confused because you basically reject the idea that these people should be allowed to stay when confronted with my (imo reasonable) suggestions that a) if they're kicked out of the country they may die and/or b) it might be cheaper (and even profitable) to allow them to stay because the cost of rounding them up and shipping them home is non-trivial. But now it sounds like you're OK with it if it's just part of some master Arty Deal that gets done.

So I'm struggling to find the line between what I think is your ideology about illegal immigrants ("they should all be sent home", "Regardless the consequences"), and what I guess might just be considered fatalism at the reality that hardline ideologies like that are basically incompatible with the real world and compromise must be made.

So - what compromise would /you/ willing to accept to let them stay in the US (I guess we'll find out what Trumps is next week or whenever)? This will be useful information when the topic of exporting children from Australia comes up (as it inevitably will, with a bootlick like Dutton "keeping us safe") so we might be able to avoid this conversation next time.
10:17am 24/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23951 posts
Me, personally, I would rather they all leave. Brokering deals sends a signal that if you break the immigration law there is a high likelihood you will be granted amnesty in the future. Dems voted for the immigration laws and now they are blocking their application.... It is a positive feedback loop.

But politics is the art of the possible and if the perfect policy cannot be crafted then the next best imperfect policy must be adopted. It is delusional to stick to a policy position which simply will not be passed by congress.

I said just above, the compromise is to allow the amnesty, cut off chain migration, build the wall, and grant no further amnesties, deport anyone in the country illegally, apply the laws Democrats have already passed. (And cut off federal funding to sanctuary citiies). S***, if a city in Australia decided to ignore federal law, all hell would break loose.

This will be useful information when the topic of exporting children from Australia comes up


We don't need to cut deals here because Australians are firmly on board with secure borders.
10:27am 24/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2963 posts
Dude no need for the seeunexttuesday


No that's true I should b nicer. But I think when they are alternately accusing infi of wanting to deport children on inflexible principle or murder children of colour through deportation (that was awesome fpot is really passionate about children of colour he cares soooo much that if you disagree with his idiotically simple world view he'll tell you you must want to murder children), the civil conversation boat has already sailed.

You don't get to characterise people as flat out evil and then get ruffled when you get called a c***
10:33am 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39436 posts
Gotcha. Well I personally don't think any of those things will make as much difference (I can't imagine any scenario in which the wall is going to get approved, or if construction will start if it does, or if it will get finished if it gets started, or that even if it gets through all these milestones, if will make the slightest difference to illegal immigration in the US) as putting even a half-assed effort into enforcing the basic laws they have now about restricting immigrant labour.
We don't need to cut deals here because Australians are firmly on board with secure borders.
yeh probably why the topic has never come up before here
11:36am 24/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21478 posts
You've making the ideological point that all these people should be removed from the US. But you're saying that because it's part of T's master plan, it's OK for them to negotiate on this topic and use it as leverage for some other stuff (perhaps because it's a necessary side effect of America's terribly broken two party democracy where every decision comes down to a coin flip of one or two politicians).

I guess I'm confused because you basically reject the idea that these people should be allowed to stay when confronted with my (imo reasonable) suggestions that a) if they're kicked out of the country they may die and/or b) it might be cheaper (and even profitable) to allow them to stay because the cost of rounding them up and shipping them home is non-trivial. But now it sounds like you're OK with it if it's just part of some master Arty Deal that gets done.

So I'm struggling to find the line between what I think is your ideology about illegal immigrants ("they should all be sent home", "Regardless the consequences"), and what I guess might just be considered fatalism at the reality that hardline ideologies like that are basically incompatible with the real world and compromise must be made.

So - what compromise would /you/ willing to accept to let them stay in the US (I guess we'll find out what Trumps is next week or whenever)? This will be useful information when the topic of exporting children from Australia comes up (as it inevitably will, with a bootlick like Dutton "keeping us safe") so we might be able to avoid this conversation next time.


trog that whole post was about kicking people out of the country

but as already posted the agreement is that no one currently in the US under the law as it is would be kicked out.........

did you skip a couple of posts or something? or am i completely missing something
02:23pm 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39437 posts
did you skip a couple of posts or something? or am i completely missing something
I might have - I only entered the conversation to ask if infi thought it was OK to kick people out if they would basically die as a result, with follow-up of what if it was cheaper to let them stay.
but as already posted the agreement is that no one currently in the US under the law as it is would be kicked out.........
do you mean the agreement in the US? as I understand it the agreement has not yet been made, it's just been postponed a week or two, right?
03:07pm 24/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2964 posts
I might have - I only entered the conversation to ask if infi thought it was OK to kick people out if they would basically die as a result, with follow-up of what if it was cheaper to let them stay.

What the actual f***?

I just thought I'd drop by and ask if you are you ok with killing babies just because?

Meanwhile on earth
05:28pm 24/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21479 posts
Trog you are right it hasn't been passed yet but that is where it stands at the moment.

I just thought I'd drop by and ask if you are you ok with killing babies just because?


To be fair infi's reply wasn't no.... to put it politely.

But this is why we have 2 sides of politics, despite the extremism from both sides the middle ground makes the most sense usually.

And on the bombshell we could pretty much /thread
06:33pm 24/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2965 posts
I'm not going to put words in infis mouth, but the idea that repealing DACA is likely to kill anyone is a ridiculous hysterical point of view.

The hysterics are also an easy game to play. Illegal migration across the Mexican border is run by the Cartels. Something insane like 7 in 10 women who make the crossing get raped.

By wanting DACA to remain in place I guess trog must want those women of colour to get raped and live in thrall to violent criminal organisations.

If he doesn't refute being called outright evil, he is. This line of reasoning gets dumped on infi in basically every discussion but he is the one who gets labelled the cognitive dissonant.
07:12pm 24/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23952 posts
I only entered the conversation to ask if infi thought it was OK to kick people out if they would basically die as a result,


it is such a terrible lame ploy to suggest that mass death would result in mexicans having to live in.... mexico. what a porous weak argument. there are plenty of mexicans alive in mexico last i checked.

the bottom line is Democrats hang their hat on mexican voters and so desire as many mexican voters as possible in america. This is how extreme left politics works. I am so curious of the mental gymnastics left wing radicals use to justify their unknowningly self-destrucitve behaviours I have just started reading Rules for Radicals. The revolution will be televised live.

We are lucky (to a degree) in Australia that the ALP has a right wing and thus knows if it pandered to economic migrants and people smugglers they would be destroyed at the ballot box.

Question for Trog (anyone): should the border just be open for Mexicans? Should any person need a visa to come to America, or just jump on the food stamps, dole queue, free healthcare and education no questions asked?

If he doesn't refute being called outright evil, he is. This line of reasoning gets dumped on infi in basically every discussion but he is the one who gets labelled the cognitive dissonant.

A literal demonstration of cognitive dissonance is to vote for immigration controls and then to shut down the govt when they are actually enforced.
09:47pm 24/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5682 posts
This is how extreme left politics works


Actually thats how all politics works.
10:50pm 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39439 posts
it is such a terrible lame ploy to suggest that mass death would result in mexicans having to live in.... mexico. what a porous weak argument.
maybe, but it's not the one I made - as I said, I was just trying to plumb the depths of your opposition
Question for Trog (anyone): should the border just be open for Mexicans? Should any person need a visa to come to America, or just jump on the food stamps, dole queue, free healthcare and education no questions asked?
Well I think the border basically has been "just open" for Mexicans for decades (per above comments); noone has ever given a real s*** about closing it because a non-trivial number of people and businesses depend on it (and really I suspect most people does it make that much difference? Is California suffering because of all of the illegal Mexicans are there?! Maybe the more illegal Mexicans in your state the more prosperous it is?!?!)

I don't think anyone thinks the border should just be open for anyone and it certainly is not the majority position of "The Lefts"
10:55pm 24/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23953 posts
Is California suffering because of all of the illegal Mexicans are there?! Maybe the more illegal Mexicans in your state the more prosperous it is?!?!)


it ranks 43rd in America for fiscal position so... yeah....

a basic google search

california fiscal position mlooks grim

California 3rd worst state for business

i was researching a future holiday to to the States. California has an 18% accommodation tax! this blew my mind. they have all these taxes and silicon valley and their budget is on life support.

Well I think the border basically has been "just open" for Mexicans for decades (per above comments); noone has ever given a real s*** about closing it because a non-trivial number of people and businesses depend on it (and really I suspect most people does it make that much difference?


it hasn't been "just open". The border hasn't been physically secure. it is illegal to enter America without a visa, just like it is illegal to enter someone's home even if they have the door open. The illegals do not have rights of citizens.... but now they do want rights of citizens. The businesses "depend" on cheap labor because they are used to it. A tiler will use cheap same quality tiles and when they stop being available he will go to the dearer same quality tile. If illegal labor dried up life would go on, and the US govt would collect more taxes.

Actually thats how all politics works.


encouraging illegal immigration and pushing for amnesty to grow your voter base.... right.....
11:03pm 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39440 posts
i was researching a future holiday to to the States. California has an 18% accommodation tax! this blew my mind. they have all these taxes and silicon valley and their budget is on life support.
they're a bunch of green hippy socialists that like paying taxes - you'll love it in California. Don't step in the human s*** on the sidewalks.

Your stats are interesting but without noting that they also have the highest GDP and are the biggest state economy it seems a bit one sided? (I was interested to see the 2nd biggest is Texas, which I didn't know - the state with the 2nd highest number of illegal Mexican immigrants! :)
The businesses "depend" on cheap labor because they are used to it
they are used to it because the fines and penalties for employing illegals in a business or personal environment are nowhere at all near harsh enough to dissuade the activity. This is just the American Way. If they were serious about it, they'd [... etc, I've already said this and you've chosen to deliberately ignore or misinterpret it a bunch of times because I guess you can't bear to agree with me on any point even when it's aligned with your motives]
11:24pm 24/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39441 posts
Side question: how do you feel about anchor babies? I actually know a few people (not Mexicans) who went to the US specifically to get their kids US citizenship for various reasons.
11:28pm 24/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23954 posts
Forbes

You may not be aware that the mere birth of a child in North America does not guarantee the child nor their parents the right to live in the United States or Canada, at least not until the child reaches the age of majority. Put another way, the family can be and often is removed from the U.S. or Canada, even if they have a native born child, because they do not have lawful status in the country. Some time in the future, once the child becomes an adult, they will be able to return to the U.S. or Canada, but that is down the road. It does not prevent deportation now.


it would be a drop in the ocean. and a constitutional quirk. mostly if the adults can't get naturalization why would they bother? to give their baby a better life in many years time? that's very noble.
12:00am 25/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39442 posts
to give their baby a better life in many years time? that's very noble.
is it? it seems like a totally banal thing to do - if you can afford to have your kid in the US, just fly over and get your kid citizenship so they have the option of easily returning later
12:16am 25/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23955 posts
it is a constitutional quirk so not much can be done about it.
12:21am 25/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2966 posts
maybe, but it's not the one I made - as I said, I was just trying to plumb the depths of your opposition


I'm not saying it's the definite outcome I just want to know if my retarded characterisation will get purchase with you because I'm not saying if want something done about DACA you might be an evil c***.

So troggy must want all those women to raped and sold into sexual slavery. It's not a definite outcome but by leaving the incentives the way they are it is happening.

I'm just trying to figure out the depth of trogs apathey to people of colour.
So tell us trog why do you like sex slaves so much?
08:43am 25/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39443 posts
it is a constitutional quirk so not much can be done about it.
here's hoping!
09:55am 25/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39444 posts
Bill Gates proposes just handing out Australian citizenship to "top graduates" from Aussie universities!@#
12:22pm 25/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2967 posts
Oh you mean a merits based immigration system like Trump is offering.

Who knew bill was a member of the alt-right
02:08pm 25/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23956 posts
it's also what Australia does.
02:10pm 25/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5683 posts
Oh you mean a merits based immigration system like Trump is offering.

Who knew bill was a member of the alt-right


Hah you're just screaming for attention aren't you
02:53pm 25/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2968 posts
Ok captain Marxism.
03:15pm 25/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39445 posts
There was a really terrible article s***ting on electric cars in the Australian the other day; I meant to photo it and post it but it has found its rightful place in the bin
11:50am 26/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7803 posts
Triple MMM hottest 100 played this:



TripleM > TripleJ
01:10pm 26/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26189 posts
One thing I do when I have no fear of being investigated and am feeling absolutely tip-top innocent is to order the firing of the person in charge of investigating me twice.
04:26pm 26/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5684 posts
One thing I do when I have no fear of being investigated and am feeling absolutely tip-top innocent is to order the firing of the person in charge of investigating me twice.


hahah
06:50pm 26/01/18 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11752 posts
TripleM > TripleJ
Apart from the news, this has always been the case.
Triple J is for animals.
01:27pm 27/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2969 posts
One thing I do when I have no fear of being investigated and am feeling absolutely tip-top innocent is to order the firing of the person in charge of investigating me twice.


If everything I'd ever said about Trump has proven to be wrong, I'd probably stop while I'm 100km behind the 8 ball.

Probably look for someone other than phooks but get ready to blow some doe on mental health fpot. I just want you to be mentally prepared for when Trump isn't the devil.
01:39pm 27/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7804 posts
I think everyone here should listen to this podcast about an Aussie IT entrepreneur's thoughts on our commodities and property whore economy.

02:03pm 27/01/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40968 posts
triple M? f*** no id rather be deaf.

02:11pm 27/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7805 posts
Still better than Triple J. Triple J has gone to hell.

I listen to 4zzz and DoubleJJ when driving now.
02:54pm 27/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26190 posts
I saw Kendrick Lamar song got #1 on hottest 100. Had never heard of it so listened to it and it's really bad. However I am really uncool when it comes to my musical taste so it's probably actually good.
08:42pm 27/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3351 posts

I saw that Matt Barrie article, seems to be pretty revealing and a hard pill to swallow.

Here's the link: https://medium.com/@matt_11659/matt-barrie-australias-economy-is-a-house-of-cards-6877adb3fb2f

I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts on that article ^^.


09:17pm 27/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7807 posts
My thoughts are he's dead right.
09:22pm 27/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3352 posts
To a different topic, this was quite the debate!

Channel 4 News’ full, fiery interview with clinical psychologist and professor Jordan B Peterson, whose views on gender have amassed great controversy - and a huge online following.

10:06pm 27/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23957 posts
I punted on Kendrick Lamar back in December to win. It's a catchy song but who even listens to JJJ?

That was a very long and detailed article about the Australian economy but I don't think it is as simple as "we're all doomed". Economic activity is an essential part of human interaction and regardless of the contraction by the monetary economy, this county still enjoys a specific level of public infrastructure, private infrastructure (office buildings and mine sites), natural resources and human capital (intelligence, creativity). All of these items have inherent value which can be immediately sold independent of currency liquidity - it is simply the prices that change.

There will be a large disruption in the process - given the high leverage globally there could be a large shift of further wealth to the 1‰ as happened during the Great depression and the GFC. Banks trigger defaults and repossess assets at prices then enjoy asset growth as the economy recovers.

I am looking at going long the Swiss Franc and gold as a hedge against the enormous run of the Dow and the massive US deficits. Assets will suffer during any period of rapid dele verging but I just can't see another bout of quantitative easing having any impact. Real assets still will carry value and be a stable store of wealth in the long term if you can hold them free of debt.

Ease of money was not the issue during the aftermath of GFC, it was no one wanted to borrow.

Jordan Peterson destroyed that silly interviewer. She came across as everything she despised: emotional, irrational and superficial.
10:44pm 27/01/18 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1118 posts
So you're saying...so you're saying...so you're saying..

So you're saying you're a lobster?
11:08pm 27/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2970 posts
The response by channel 4 has been pretty ordinary.

she was inundated with death threats to the point she needed personal security but no one has produced the death threats. Wasn't referred to the police either.

I have a suspicion the 'death threats' were merely pointing out she had a train wreck of an interview while being a woman.

This pretty well sums up what happened

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUZdOlQW0AEVvZM.jpg:large
10:10am 28/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23959 posts
I had bacon and eggs for lunch.
12:43pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5685 posts
JP: ..."They[Women] are doing fine in medicine. In fact, there are far more female physicians than male physicians. There are lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women. Many, Many disciplines. And they're doing great!" According to the Kaiser Foundation, based on current available data on licensed and practicing physicians, the distribution of physicians in the US is thus: Women - 326, 902 Men - 623, 054


Just another Milo looking for easy publicity, and pulling facts out of his ass. If he's referring to the UK, it's still more men than women.
03:07pm 28/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2971 posts
Litterally two posts into that reddit thread stats start popping up which vindicate his statement.

In the UK medical graduates skew two thirds in favour of females and given he is a university professor that's likely what he was taking about.

Depending on the specialisation, it skews even further. Pediatrictians skew to nearly 75%
source

However the deeper point being that women are institutionally prevented from practicing medicine is deranged and pointing to a questionably faulty stat doesn't change that.

You really are the least capable reader of anything I've ever encountered.
03:31pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5686 posts
likely what he was taking about.


Oh so now you're putting words in his mouth, weren't you just teasing the interviewer for doing the same?

there are *far* more female physicians than male physicians.


Just a reminder of what he said. Now if he said there are far more Pediatricians, he wouldn't be pulling facts out of his ass.
03:37pm 28/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23960 posts
the underlying premise is some notion of entrenched inequality. and it's just untrue. he explained elsewhere in the interview that inequality of outcome is a result of the demands of child rearing, the individual choices of mothers and the role of motherhood in an effective society. if a woman wants to be a doctor, they can be a doctor.
03:43pm 28/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2972 posts
Let me take a guess at how you found that post vash.

You googled "Jordan Peterson racist" and copied and pasted the first thing you saw.

Here is the difference between me and what the interviewer did and the d******* who posted on Reddit.

In an argument, you give your opponent the best reading of their words. This principle is foundational in philosophy.

The interviewer in the otherhand conducted strawman after strawman.

If there are stats which vindicate his view (and there are) a good debater assumes those are the stats he is referring to.

See how you skipped straight over the contextual point. Just like the interviewer and the idiot who posted on Reddit.

If women are institutionally prevented from practicing medicine why are women a majority of graduates? <- if you don't have something meaningful to say about this just shut up.
03:49pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5687 posts

Nice dodge as usual PP.

If women are institutionally prevented from practicing medicine why are women a majority of graduates


They're graduates. Then why aren't the majority Physicians?

Today, women are typically the dominant group within medical schools and yet remain under-represented in formal leadership positions and particular speciality areas. Although today there is greater female participation in medical roles, it still appears that women are hitting the glass ceiling.
https://theconversation.com/female-doctors-in-australia-are-hitting-glass-ceilings-why-51325

Motherhood is surely why women are under represented in leadership roles and these prominent professions. And if there is an all woman board of members, or of a political party, they're all going to be feminist nazis. /s


04:21pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40969 posts
I saw Kendrick Lamar song got #1 on hottest 100. Had never heard of it so listened to it and it's really bad. However I am really uncool when it comes to my musical taste so it's probably actually good.


you are actually the worst at music of erryone in the world.
04:41pm 28/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2973 posts
The refusal to acknowledge there are stats which vindicate Peterson is the dodge vash.

Graduates are the first step in a career. If they are institutionally oppressed how are they getting in?

Here is the thing vash.

A statistical imbalance is not evidence that the imbalance is produced through oppression. It's just an imbalance, however a majority imbalance in favour the supposed oppressed group should be cause for a raised eyebrow. If women were institutionally prevented from entering medicine you'd expect to see 100% of doctors being male. It isn't difficult to oppress. You just draft laws saying no women allowed.

Today, women are typically the dominant group within medical schools and yet remain under-represented in formal leadership positions and particular speciality areas.


Brilliant. You concede my point in a rebuttal. You suck so f*****g hard at arguing vash.

but let's pick that apart anyway.

remain under-represented


Is there some good reason to think that medicine as a practice has equal representation one of its institutional goals? Would that be a good idea? If so why and what evidence do you have to support the idea? Is equal representation likely to produce better patient outcomes? Seems unlikely to me.

formal leadership positions

At the very top of the pyramid for the most competitive roles, there is an imbalance. But return to is this because of institutional sexism? A statistical imbalance is just an imbalance. Seems pretty unlikely you can make the further step. There are a host of reasons you might not want to be in the most high-end competitive role. The crazy hours for a start. but it is interesting isn't it that the go-to for evidence of oppression is underrepresentation in jobs with the smallest most selective candidate pool. IE the pool which already has enormous decisive reasons (which aren't sexism) to select from about 20 people at most. IE the least statistically reliable pool.

particular speciality areas

But they are over-represented in others. the fact that they arent under-represented in all specialisations cuts against the idea there is institutional sexism in medicine. do the reverse. If they are oppressed in these underrepresented specialisations are men oppressed in the specialisations where women are the majority (in some cases the overwhelming majority).
04:54pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5688 posts
You're further drifting away from the original statement. That's the dodge, PP. JP said there are for more women physicians than men. This is wrong, and now you attempt to spin it as graduates are the majority so he's right?
A graduate isnt a physician, so whats preventing more women from progressing from graduate to a fully qualified physician? Perhaps there is an institutional issue within hospitals / clinics.

And the thing is PP, you confuse the meaning of 'institutional'.
A minority or gender can be institutionally oppressed without a law or government agency declaring it so. There are cultural norms in place, and inner circles / clubs that ensure the majority of decision makers are of certain gender.

The term "institution" commonly applies to both informal institutions such as customs, or behavior patterns important to a society
05:15pm 28/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2974 posts
The conversation took place in the context of women not being able to enter professions as a result of institutional oppression Vash.

To pick out one stat, which is arguably correct in any event is dodging the issue.

I'm am staying exactly on point my little chum. You're the one posting links to the first thing you find, without checking if it undermines your point.

A graduate is a physician vash. They've graduated and are entitled to supervised practice. If you do that you'll get locked up.

There are cultural norms in place, and inner circles / clubs that ensure the majority of decision makers are of certain gender.


If the basis is cultural norms and not laws (which in a democratic society tend to reflect cultural norms pretty closely) You start listing them Vash. You find me a single medical cultural norm that says women can't be doctors. Have you ever met a single person who has said that or believes it? See how now you have to resort to the Illuminati are keeping women out. That didn't take long. three posts and the guy accusing people of 'dodging' has given up on evidence altogether.
05:31pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5689 posts
A graduate is a physician vash


Heh. so back to my original question, why are there so many graduate women, and why doesn't that translate to majority practicing?
05:42pm 28/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2975 posts
You do understand how sub-categories and general categories interact right?

You know a majority of a small group doesn't translate into a majority of a larger group because the numbers are smaller. I don't know how to explain really basic mathematics to you any simpler vash.
05:59pm 28/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
892 posts
10:15pm 28/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21480 posts
Lolz
10:30pm 28/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26193 posts
Strava release global GPS heatmap rvealing sensitive military information

In some cases you can even find evidence of individuals being tracked to their own home if you zoom in close enough. Lots of memos about altered patrol routes being passed out to people in the ready rooms today.
04:22pm 29/01/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23962 posts
well thats a bit awkward
05:40pm 29/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39446 posts
The headline is a bit inappropriate; it makes it sound like Strava made a mistake by releasing sensitive information, but that's not really what happened
05:47pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40971 posts
strava heat maps are awesome. they helped me to find all the hidden cycling infrastructure on the norhtside of brisbane.
08:28pm 29/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39447 posts
by 'hidden cycling infrastructure' do you mean SECRET MILITARY BASES

turns out Spook is ACTUALLY a spook and has been infiltrating our TOPPE SECRAT bases all along!
08:43pm 29/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2976 posts
Seems remarkable the US forces didn't have a policy about this.

I like the Strava heatmaps as well, but spook is definitely a Russian spy. It's in the name, hiding in plain sight.
09:32pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
893 posts
Strava whores like to race and share their progress. It's all part of the oversharing self promotion we have shifted too. Putting a black spot around your house is easy in Strava on a PC, but alas so many retarded smart phones users oversharing, don't know how, don't care, or are just that naive. People are very naive. For example if your a bicycle thief, just go check the race results, then search some names on Strava, then search white pages if you like, but you will know where the good bicycle are, and that same naive people tend to overshare other stuff. So it's just a matter of time till they post "Here we are in Hawai - I miss my 10k road bike" (public) and you go around there and eventually you get your crack money. There were organised groups stealing high end bikes using these methods in Sydney. They recon it's not just crack heads but actually well organised crime. The bikes are shipped out of the country. Naive. or you could rob some jogger's house easily when you can see their routine. Fools.
09:58pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4641 posts
TIL about strava's existence
10:36pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3347 posts
We interrupt this threads usual RACISM DOESN'T EXIST s***fight to bring you the latest breaking news from the Loony Left:

4% of Trumps statements are classified as true on politifact.
What a straight talker!

The wealthiest people and largest corporations throughout the world have been stashing at least $21tn-$32tn in offshore tax havens in order to avoid taxes
But thats because they're smart, and TAXES are THEFT

The six richest people on Earth now own more wealth than the bottom half of the world’s population – 3.7 billion people. The top 1% now have more money than the bottom 99%.
capitalism works

Meanwhile, nearly one in seven people struggle to survive on less than $1.25 (90p) a day and some 29,000 children die daily from entirely preventable causes such as diarrhoea, malaria and pneumonia.
lucky we cut that foreign aid

As those hundreds of millions of people live in abysmal conditions, the arms merchants of the world grow increasingly rich as governments spend trillions of dollars on weapons. Guess which government wants in on that dough?
You f***** guessed it! Of all the manufacturing and export opportunity we have the best they can do is weapons. Cars? Nah. Renewables? Nah.

January 26 positions European settlement as the primary source of national identity and pride, successfully ignoring more than 60,000 years of pre-colonial history and 230 years of multicultural migration to Australia. Seen as a useless step towards reconciliation by lots of racists, luckily for them whether it's useless or not even if indigenous Australia succeeded in its quest for reconciliation the legacy of their racism would remain for generations
infi and PP seen clamouring to whataboutisms and triple M for salvation
11:22pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5690 posts
11:40pm 29/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3353 posts
Why are the 'death squads' always getting such a hard time!? Perhaps they should rebrand..
11:56pm 29/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26195 posts
Phooks: coming soon, a huge pile of froth about the sources you used and not the content contained in the sources. And the links from fringe sources? Complete bulls*** how can you trust small organisations like that. By the way, did I mention the secret society conspiracy between MSM and the FBI to bring down the government? Check out this infowars link!

Retirement Teams might be a better name Viper.
12:55am 30/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5692 posts
haha touche' fpot
01:44am 30/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39448 posts
I think instead of trying to become a top 10 weapons exported we should do something a bit less morally questionable, like fence off Tasmania and offer it up for use as a human hunting reserve for wealthy foreigners
11:01am 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2977 posts
Hey phooks does it feel good when your cheer squad line up to suck your d*** over left wing epitaphs? Seems a little early in the week to have been drinking again.

Speaking of Australia Day seeing as you care sooo much about the date I take it you spent the day working because you couldn't bring yourself to take a day of such unmitigated hate relaxing and thinking about the good Australia does.

As for arms dealing if it so wrong for Australia to do, you should move to Sweden at least then you can be in the top 10 arms exporting nations with the moral security that your government is feminist.

If people only need $2 a day to live phooks why don't you send all your spare income to alleviate the forgien aid short fall. You could use your drinking money.

And the links from fringe sources?


Pretty f*****g funny coming from a guardian reader.
12:35pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2978 posts
Hey you know who loves giving drug running death squads money?

Obama that's who.
01:07pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3348 posts
phooks does it feel good when your cheer squad line up to suck your d*** over left wing epitaphs?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/sugpJGDDiUy2r9JfhbonLv3NGP_MpD6JWwnnvO-oKvFyIuFcfuEJMGQdOAPgjR1s-KgMey-wUvvci7q-6MrZj3-iRloe-WPFaHf_yxHMOMiuXmHfoO7NQQ=w341-h431-nc

Every week when I go to the sperm bank they just hook me up to 5 machines at once while I virtue signal on message boards
03:22pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3349 posts
Pp I will however note you both make fun of me for not donating (false), while at the same time making fun of my sources like the head of World Vision. It really shows your sick and twisted bent.

Just like infi and his identity politics idiocy, this is what rational people call 'mental gymnastics'
03:31pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2979 posts
I learnt everything I know about telling people they suck d*** from you phooks.

Bit late to claim the high road now little man.
03:31pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3350 posts
Considering your capacity for critical independant thought, I'll explain this the way I would to a 15y/o. It wasn't the fact you were doing the sex that was bad, it's the fact that you'd do the sex for the Trump.

You are the only one that ascribed negativity to the act of d*** sucking because you're projecting, because deep down you think sucking d*** is bad because you're a homophobe
03:37pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2980 posts
Pp I will however note you both make fun of me for not donating (false), while at the same time making fun of my sources like the head of World Vision.


No no, I'm just pointing out you drink instead on giving the money you spend on alcohol to starving kids.

I didn't make fun of your sources.

I think accusing me of mental gymnastics after the that incoherent pile of dog s*** is the real mental gymnastics.
03:37pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2981 posts
Considering your capacity for critical independant thought, I'll explain this the way I would to a 15y/o. It wasn't the fact you were doing the sex that was bad, it's the fact that you'd do the sex for the Trump.

You are the only one that ascribed negativity to the act of d*** sucking because you're projecting, because deep down you think sucking d*** is bad because you're a homophobe


No no you said I'd suck trumps d*** as a negative. But I'm not sure that you distinction you now propose is any better.

If sucking d*** is just fine why would doing it for Trump be bad?

And why did you chose sucking d***. Why not banking, or shopping, or shining shoes, or cleaning his bedroom. No you went to sucking d***. After you carefully explained sucking d*** was a homophobic slur.

Funny that with all this talk of projection.
03:46pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3351 posts
So PP we've established you hate the very idea of an equal society. To what extent?

How much inequality is too much for you?
03:47pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3352 posts
Because it shows how much you love and idolise Trump. God it's like talking to a brick with a mouth
03:50pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2982 posts
Because it shows how much you love and idolise Trump. God it's like talking to a brick with a mouth


Why does it show that phooks?

Sounds a little like homophobic projection there phooks.
03:54pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2983 posts
So phooks we've established you hate gay people with the intensity of a thousand suns.

What is it that you hate about them so much.
04:03pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3353 posts
Their excellent sense of style
04:11pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2984 posts
Oh so you're appealing to a homophobic stereotype.

Just stop talking phooks. You're only embarrassing yourself with this relentless anti gay screed.

You should go drink while looking at the pictures of the starving children you choose not to help with each sip.
04:14pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3354 posts
Oh no, my feminisms :(

What I do love is that this is another interesting political phenomenon - the different 'standards' set for people championing more egalitarian viewpoints compared to right wingers championing the 'f*** you got mine' base. It's about expectations

A progressive used an anti-sex slur? Suddenly his opponents care deeply about the LGBTI+ agenda!! A vegan ate meat once a week? F*****g immoral. Obama orders mustard? High class twat.

And my favourite: a not for profit paying it's staff a competive/market wage? How can they steal that money from starving Africans?!

Meanwhile billionaires on their third wife pander to evangelicals like he's the next Christ
04:33pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2985 posts
Why would people who hold themselves out as living to a set of standards (and relentlessly call people immoral for not following those standards) get called out when they hypocritically fail to live up to the standards they set for themselves.

It's like a Hardy boys mystery.

I wonder how it ends.

Probably with phooks calling people homophobic for using language he himself described as homophobic but continues to use. Least he admits it was a slur now. We get the hypocrisy out the open for everyone to see.

A progressive used an anti-sex slur? Suddenly his opponents have reason to doubt he deeply cares about the LGBTI+ agenda!!


Just fixed that up for you phooks. You know seeing as you think like a 15y/o
04:41pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
894 posts
05:28pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5693 posts
'Lol look at this thing Obama did, GOTCHA'

'Oh you like to drink alcohol, why dont you spend that money on foreign aid?'

It's funny how much PP and co cry about feminist snow flakes, when they are the biggest frothing cry babies of all. Hypocrisy on display for everyone, indeed.

The illumanti are out to get Trump. It's all a liberal media conspiracy this Russia thing.
05:39pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2986 posts
Hey guy who posted "the look at the things reagan did" comic but upset about being reminded about Obama, remind us all who was talking about reagan before you?
05:48pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5694 posts
Why would i be upset about Obama? He's just another neoliberal, though one that is acceptable to lead. Your whatabousies are cute as always, and amusing.
06:00pm 30/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2987 posts
Yes I'm sure we can all agree you have really heaped scorn on Obama.

Its not whataboutery when I did exactly what you did Vash. Or if it is you post was the start of the whataboutery.
06:10pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2181 posts

I can't tell if we covered this because this thread loves american politics.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-30/strike-action-near-extinct-as-wages-stagnate,-think-tank-shows/9376070

This is a worry.

Strike action is more common in UK and French transport systems but our "Fair Work" commission stopped the first strike in years.

How can you argue for higher wages if you cannot down tools?


09:58pm 30/01/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7808 posts
^ With outsourcing and automation looming for nearly all occupations, unions will disappear.
11:08pm 30/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5696 posts
^ With outsourcing and automation looming for nearly all occupations, unions will disappear.


Im curious how neoliberalism will deal with this upcoming problem. It worries me when they always say something like 'there will be more jobs created thanks to automation' while true, the question is, will it be enough to keep the economy thriving, and offsetting the immense job losses.
We're already dealing with too much wealth transferring to the 1% , and automation will worsen that problem. If unions are killed off due to automation, what happens to wages and job security?
12:02am 31/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39450 posts
^ With outsourcing and automation looming for nearly all occupations, unions will disappear.
if automation looms for all occupations, then it means the need for occupations is gone and we can all move into space and become the Culture
12:06am 31/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3355 posts
if automation looms for all occupations, then it means the need for occupations is gone and we can all move into space and become the Culture


This is basically Star Trek, sounds great to me. Apart from the Borg bit. Although are the Borg not some metaphor for socialism / communism?
03:22am 31/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5698 posts
Although are the Borg not some metaphor for socialism / communism?


The Federation is.

03:51am 31/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3357 posts
The Federation is enabled through a capitalist system which itself was built off the back of the massive exploitation of robot labour. That's what enabled the switch from scarcity to an abundance of sorts which enables individuals to not have to work for money to live, so to speak. Do those robots not have workers rights Vash?

Calling the Federation Communist, based on comments from Kirk in Star Trek IV on not having any money in the future and Picard’s speech about the economics of the federation being significantly different than 21st century economics and people pursuing personal enrichment rather than the accumulation of wealth. The problem with this definition is it’s lazy — just because they don’t pursue the accumulation of wealth, it does not mean the Federation is communist.
The Federation is clearly not a centrally planned economy, and therefore obviously not communist. Individual freedom of choice is very obvious.
Private ownership still exists — the biggest examples, to me, are Sisko’s restaurant and Chateau Picard, but many other examples abound from all the trinkets everyone owns in their quarters.
The economics of Star Trek

I noticed in the new Star Trek Discovery, the crux of the Klingon's issue with the Federation seems to be the apparent loss of cultural identity, which I thought was an interesting allusion to individualism v socialism.

Seems to me you could argue the Federation is a type of socialist capitalism, whilst the Borg are communism.
04:21am 31/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26199 posts
Do those robots not have workers rights Vash? 
Are they sentient?
05:28am 31/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2988 posts
Strike action is more common in UK and French transport systems but our "Fair Work" commission stopped the first strike in years.


I wouldn't look to the UK or France for well paid trades jobs.

Their ability to strike hasn't improved their conditions compared to Australia at all.

The doom quotes fair work commission regularly finds in favour of workers. There was a big case last year that was awarded against Coles.
07:14am 31/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39451 posts
Seems to me you could argue the Federation is a type of socialist capitalism, whilst the Borg are communism.
I don't know if it's fair to call the Borg "communist" because they're a single entity hive mind (in theory).

I have been watching quite a lot of Star Trek recently (mostly TNG; Discovery is OK but kind of lame compared to TNG, I reckon). The economy of the Federation I don't think is really well covered; it's only really mentioned (at least in the eps I've been watching) when they stumble across something like a feudal culture as a talking point for how backwards they are. I still have like forfty million episodes to go though but looking forward to seeing how these themes develop.

But I agree with that article in at least one point - the Trek universe is not a true 'post-scarcity economy' in the strict sense of the term where everyone gets whatever they want all the time. But it's post-scarcity enough that people don't need to work, etc. I am not convinced our traditional models of economics can be flat out applied here.

If you're interested in post-scarcity sci fi depictions I strongly recommend The Culture series. Culture citizens are sneeringly called communists by rival civilisations but it's not really what it is.
Do those robots not have workers rights Vash?
I actually just watched Measure of a Man which is kind of about this topic :D

tldr: old Star Trek is awesome
09:04am 31/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5699 posts
Ive seen that article before, Viper, and using his argument in the case of Venezuela, it couldn't possibly be Socialist, considering it has a privately owned industry. Though market based Socialism is a thing.
There's really no such thing as a purist form of an economic system, every country has its own flavor of Capitalism or Socialism.

I'd say the Federation leans more to Communism than any other system we know of.
05:05pm 31/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2989 posts
I don't know if it's fair to call the Borg "communist" because they're a single entity hive mind (in theory).


Seems like the perfect expression of the subordinatation of the individual to the collective to me.
06:30pm 31/01/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26201 posts
Lot of depressed looking people at the SOTU thinking about the terrible mess they'll have to clean up in 2020.
07:32pm 31/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2990 posts
Phooks thought it was a brave masculine performance. He thought trumps suit was really snappy. It filled him with hope and a number of other emotions which were weird and deeply confusing.
07:45am 01/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23963 posts
I just saw a bunch of confused and conflicted Democrats who wanted to stand and applaud at various points but weren't allowed by the Queen bee. Trump brought his A game.
09:38am 01/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26202 posts
03:05pm 01/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2991 posts
I'm confused.

He asserted that since, the election, 2.4 million new jobs have been created, even though this is actually the slowest gain in jobs since 2010.


How is that an example of a falsehood. The truth of the rate of job creation is unrelated to the truth of the number of jobs created.
04:52pm 01/02/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3358 posts
Well, how do you define sentience? Even if they're not, presumably the Federation citizens don't have shared ownership of the means of production (e.g. the robot workforce). What about the Federation is communist-like to you Vash? Honestly interested, as seems much more like socialist capitalism to me. They don't have a centrally planned economy, there's no shared ownership of production, they have a capitalist economic system, they still have individual freedoms, private property ownership, a class structure and a monetary system.

Thanks trog! Will check it out. I'm just starting Neruomancer. TNG is great, I met Patrick Stewart a while back, he did the voiceover for one of our marketing vids, he's a true gent!

Discovery is indeed a bit pants, it's well cheesy, who writes these things!? It's a shame.
02:02am 02/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26204 posts
Well are they Data style androids or mechanical robots like the ones that exist today?
07:34am 02/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2992 posts
Would have been better presented as a ten item list and filed under OMG.

For example

OMG ten reasons sir redhat doesn't understand capitalism.

1. He thinks the fair work commission is a neo-liberal conspiracy to cheat workers.

And 9 others.
01:47pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5700 posts
What about the Federation is communist-like to you Vash? Honestly interested, as seems much more like socialist capitalism to me. They don't have a centrally planned economy, there's no shared ownership of production, they have a capitalist economic system, they still have individual freedoms, private property ownership, a class structure and a monetary system.


In the Federation there's no constant need to gain wealth & material possessions, and people prove themselves by seeking to do what their passion is, rather than driven by profit.
Opposite to what you've learned about Communism, i believe it's the ultimate form of individual freedom. It breaks the chains of influence that money & ownership, and therefor Government, has on people & democracy.
In trade hubs like DS9 they use a currency (Latinum) to trade with other species, but within the Federation there's no money needed, they have replicators and unlimited energy, they abolished poverty, which isn't possible within a Capitalist economy.

I think the Ferengi are a suitable metaphor for a pure Capitalist society. They were looked down upon for their pure greed & pursuit for money, and showing off their wealth to one another, which isn't far off how society is today. And the creator of Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry was anti capitalist so he likely kept this in mind when he created the Ferengi.

Here's Rom getting woke, and the birth of a union in Quark's Bar.

02:44pm 02/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2993 posts
Opposite to what you've learned about Communism, i believe it's the ultimate form of individual freedom.


Nothing says individual freedom like the needs of the collective trumping individual rights.

Vash knows. He found a ridiculous caricature in star trek.
03:04pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
895 posts
showing off their wealth to one another, which isn't far off how society is today


Today... just like the day we lived in caves and every other day between in our world. Competition drives improvement. You can have a nice little theoretical world where we are all even and all have nothing, or all have the same, however human behaviour will drive people to have an edge on the other. The behaviour is good. Competition is healthy... Charles Darwin thought so too.

These kinds of human behaviours are expressed well in this show:

https://12o8ap2zx3154c0nkx1svmv3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/keepingupappearances-660x400.jpeg
05:49pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5701 posts
You can have a nice little theoretical world where we are all even and all have nothing, or all have the same, however human behaviour will drive people to have an edge on the other.


Yes thats healthy. Its unhealthy where it becomes about accumulating as much wealth & possessions as possible over much of the rest of the human population.
In the Trek universe, and in Communism, people are still competitive, but it's healthy competition. Like among engineers, or out doing your fellow student, or in sports.

I struggle to understand how people think that in a society without money & culture of gaining as many possessions as possible, humans suddenly lose their desire to compete.
06:50pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3360 posts
In the Federation there's no constant need to gain wealth & material possessions, and people prove themselves by seeking to do what their passion is, rather than driven by profit.


This is literally enabled by their capitalist economic system. Whatsmore, you can do this in our world today, and many people do.

I don't think what you're describing is communism old bean.

communism
ˈkɒmjʊnɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.
07:10pm 02/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2994 posts
many people do.


Most viper. Most. The vast majority in fact. Humans have never enjoyed more personal autonomy than they do right now.
07:16pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5702 posts
Yes you suddenly fully understand Communism with a quick google dictionary, Viper. I suggest reading abit further into it, like how Marx says Capitalism is useful for rapid development, until it reaches a peak where it will no longer serve humanity.
Picard explains that they have evolved beyond the need for want or need of possessions & wealth. So while the Federation could thank Capitalism for the development to their current technological state, another system is needed once they reached a stage of automated production and near unlimited energy.
So essentially, the Federation citizens do share the means of production, since there is no poverty, everyone has access to education, health care, food, housing etc. Something that isn't attainable in a Capitalist economy.

Humans have never enjoyed more personal autonomy than they do right now.


Cute coming from the comfort of your rich western country.
07:49pm 02/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39455 posts
Classical "communism" does not relate well to sci fi worlds because it doesn't envisage a sci-fi-esque post-scarcity economy.
This is literally enabled by their capitalist economic system.
i would disagree; I'd say its enabled by their technological automation and advancement and their socialist tendencies to give people what they need to live a happy healthy life. I think that is what we're trending for in the near future, based on things like UBI etc. But we'll do it in a s***tier way than Star Trek :D

I need to finish watching TNG though; maybe there are other episodes where they talk about Federation economics in more detail but I'm not super familiar with the Lore (other than when they use it to make a plot point).

Cute coming from the comfort of your rich western country.
Still, it is true globally; we are in an unprecedented period of worldwide wealth and health even accounting for a few terribad places that still suck.
08:09pm 02/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2995 posts
Yes you suddenly fully understand Communism with a quick google dictionary, Viper. I suggest reading abit further into it,


God you're incredible. The actual physical manifestation of the dunning-kruger effect. It's avatar. Just to layer a bit of context on that. The first post in this thread was in 2014. Vash who chastises people about their ignorance of communism still has not read even the manifesto. It should take a competent reader no more than an hour.

Cute coming from the comfort of your rich western country.


You live here too jackass. The vast majority of humanity does not live in absolutely poverty and the rate of relative poverty decreases each and every year.

Gotta love capitalism.

i would disagree; I'd say its enabled by their technological automation and advancement


Their socialist tendencys have nothing to do with it. The economics is about the distribution of goods and services. If you have an unlimited supply of both economics becomes redundant.

But I doubt star trek's economics have been thought through in any real depth.
08:26pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5703 posts

Classical "communism" does not relate well to sci fi worlds because it doesn't envisage a sci-fi-esque post-scarcity economy.


Personally i think it does, as below.

Marx's concept of a post-capitalist communist society involves the free distribution of goods made possible by the abundance provided by automation.[27] The fully developed communist economic system is postulated to develop from a preceding socialist system. Marx held the view that socialism—a system based on social ownership of the means of production—would enable progress toward the development of fully developed communism by further advancing productive technology. Under socialism, with its increasing levels of automation, an increasing proportion of goods would be distributed freely.[28]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

This is from a time before automation wasn't even conceived as a possibility. Communism was designed to cater to the needs of a post capitalist society where there is an abundance of resources & technology has reached a point where the wage labor relationship is no longer required.
09:52pm 02/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2996 posts
Marx's concept of a post-capitalist communist society involves the free distribution of goods made possible by the abundance provided by automation.
This is from a time before automation wasn't even conceived as a possibility


It is shocking how badly the education system can fail people.
10:21pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Zenmaster
Queensland
41 posts
depends on who you ask Vash
10:34pm 02/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23964 posts
I have to laugh at the abject naivete. Vash sounds like someone who avoided interactions in the real world in preference for inhabiting a space sci-fi online sim where he can live out his undergrad wikipedia-fuelled fantasies.

Try any sort of every day commerce (hell even listing something on Gumtree) and you will quickly learn its eat or be eaten.

PS Star Trek is not real.
10:38pm 02/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5704 posts
The real world's system is Capitalism, Infi. It's all you and I know, so naturally you're stuck in a mindset of 'this is all it can be, and ever will be'

I think some sheltered people here need to visit these poverty stricken regions and tell me again that the world poverty rate is low, a measurement by the world bank puts the poverty line at less than $2 a day, with half of the world at $2.50 a day. Something tells me the measurement of poverty is flawed.

'Gotta love Capitalism' said noone from these regions, ever.
09:34am 03/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39456 posts
Personally i think it does, as below.
I dunno, it still uses the word "ownership" which I don't think is really compatible with (at least Culture-esque) society. I get that it's definitely aligned though so won't quibble too much.
09:40am 03/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23965 posts
The only way people in poverty will ever improve their plight is through commerce. Because all the aid sent there is swallowed in corruption. There is no tooth fairy.
09:42am 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2997 posts
I think some sheltered people here need to visit these poverty stricken regions and tell me again that the world poverty rate is low,


Haha have you vash. Have you ever even left the country?

, a measurement by the world bank puts the poverty line at less than $2 a day, with half of the world at $2.50 a day. Something tells me the measurement of poverty is flawed.


What tells you its wrong vash? Guess you've never been to one of these countries you tell us sheltered people to visit and have no idea of the concept of PPP. Maybe it's you're total lack of economic knowledge? Your failure to understand even basic civic governance concepts? Or the knowledge you gleaned from reading zero books by Marx? Or the deep understanding a fictional show has given you of the real world. Why don't you apply the profound economic lessons contained in Skyrim next.

'Gotta love Capitalism' said noone from these regions, ever.


Yeah except they all join capitalist forums like APEC and the WTO, actively chase foreign investment and tourism dollars.

So yeah aside from the fact they are capitalist, act like capatalists, join international capitalists bodies, they really hate capitalism.
10:07am 03/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5705 posts
Have you ever even left the country?


Multiple times, Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand.
It really opens your eyes when you see mothers and their babies living on the streets, and dying dogs. If you ever visit, hit up a local 7-11 with some microwave meals costing less than a $1 ea, and hand them out to the homeless.

But this is all SJW stuff that shouldn't concern someone like you.

they all join capitalist forums


You really are sheltered aren't you? Who is 'they'? Not half the world living on $2.50 a day right?

Maybe it's you're total lack of economic knowledge


You continually misuse you're, not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but if you accuse others of the education system failing them...
10:23am 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2998 posts
If you ever visit, hit up a local 7-11 with some microwave meals costing less than a $1 ea, and hand them out to the homeless.


Still struggling with PPP aren't you. Microwave meals to the homeless. That seems a little cruel to me. You get em the microwave too?

You really are sheltered aren't you? Who is 'they'? Not half the world living on $2.50 a day right?


Ahm these three countries

Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand.


Are all members of both APEC and the WTO. So it includes everyone in poverty you've ever seen little buddy. But you get out there and school people with you deep knowledge of the issues at you're local 7-11.

In fact well over half the world's population are under the jurisdiction of the WTO. Mostly at the behest of their elected leaders.

But you totes nailed me on the correct usage of "you're". The education system may not have fixed auto correct on my phone, but it also failed to teach you to comprehend even simple sentences.
10:51am 03/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5706 posts
Still struggling with PPP aren't you.


Not at all. PPP isn't hard to grasp. Even taking into account the cost of living in these countries, $2.50 a day doesn't get you far. Hence the rampant homelessness, and prostitution.
Again, go visit these countries. You sure need it.

So it includes everyone in poverty


Hah.. yeah like the massive amounts of people living on the streets, im sure they're included. Back in the real world...
11:07am 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2999 posts
Explain PPP then vash.

Maybe I can be a later day saint like you and buy unhealthy meals at the most expensive place for the least number of people.

Hah.. yeah like the massive amounts of people living on the streets, im sure they're included. Back in the real world...


Well they are vash. They are citizens of member countries. It's ok will just add membership of international treaties to the long list of s*** you dont get
11:13am 03/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
896 posts
Yes thats healthy. Its unhealthy where it becomes about accumulating as much wealth & possessions as possible.


This is what has happened since the beginning of time too... except in the first few months of a 'hippy commune"... a few months in, and the class system starts to establish... material objects... human instinct eventually crushes the original concept. If it helps you cope with the pain, there are many people who have flashy things and are in debt to their eye balls... for things that are luxuries, that they they regard as necessities... and even those people (because they are stupid) will likely blame others once their life of credit collapses in on itself.

The champagne taste, beer income mindset drives a great deal of this. The whole "keeping up with the Jones's". This culture of FB self promotion of lifestyle further encourages it, as it provides a vehicle to increase the communication of this kind of crap... and we can see the correlation between the over-sharers, and the naive stupidity in their disclosure of personal information.

We all makes choices. If we don't have much, or don't like what we have, then the issue is within ourselves if it impacts on our own lives.. it's not the over sharers to blame or the people showing off. It's our own choice how we react. It's worth thinking about how we choose to react to these things.
11:23am 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3000 posts
Democratic Party gets caught with an actual dossier of fake news produced by a Russian smear company, which is linked to requests for illegal FISA warrants - and that is a wild conspiracy.
Like I said, Trumpers are all in full blown conspiracy land at this point. Exactly and I mean exactly like 9/11 truthers.
Imma leave this here.

Opposition research (Which may well contain actual Russian FSB disinformation) and undisclosed as such, formed a quote 'essential part' of the FISA application. backed by quotes from yahoo news which were themselves based on steele's testimony.

Gotta say, called bulls*** on the Steele dossier at the time. Count it chaps.

It'll be interesting to see what the Dem's memo has to say. I don't really see how you can give 'context' which makes that ok. If they don't show that is factually wrong, a grave abuse of power has taken place.

I think we know why Andy McCabe resigned now.
03:35pm 03/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26207 posts
As expected the memo was nothing more than a shameful attempt to create interference in an investigation and to create a pretext for Trump to fire key people investigating him. Of course the russian twitter bots and the white nationalist focal points are saying different and sounding increasingly desperate as days go by.
04:21pm 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3001 posts
Haha, still ignoring me hey fpot.

As expected the memo was nothing more than a shameful attempt to create interference in an investigation and to create a pretext for Trump to fire key people investigating him.


Adam Schiff is going to need his talking points back fpot.

A shameful attempt to confirm that an unverified dossier, paid for by the DNC formed the basis of a warrant for the FBI to conduct secret electronic surveillance on an opposing presidential campaign while the FBI was controlled by the Democrats (which the dems and the FBI both had a chance to amend). Dude that is a major major deal.

Poor little fpot. Just can't accept a president he doesn't like was elected. So it was racists and Russians that dunnit. Nothing is going to break that internal narrative.

Hehehe

Exactly and I mean exactly like 9/11 truthers.


So you gonna apologise to infi about that? You were the maximum level of being wrong.
04:35pm 03/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23966 posts
I don't need an apology :D I knew I was right.

Next step is to start gutting the FBI and Justice Dept. It's good to see US with a CEO who knows how to play harder than the swamp. The extent to which the MSM has excused this behaviour I find to be the most shocking aspect.
05:10pm 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3002 posts
No but it would be funny.

Captain accuse everyone of being evil racists because he is so virtuous should be capable of an apology when being flat out wrong.
05:18pm 03/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2183 posts
How's that wall going? So much winning, I cannot keep track.
05:57pm 03/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5707 posts
still ignoring me hey fpot.


For good reason.

Just can't accept a president he doesn't like was elected


Many share that sentiment. Like, the voters.

Just a lil reminder

https://i.imgur.com/jZVuWDc.jpg
06:30pm 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3003 posts
For good reason.

There are those education dollars hard at work.


Thanks for telling us about trump's approval rating from March 2017 Vash.
06:40pm 03/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26209 posts
I don't need an apology :D I knew I was right. Next step is to start gutting the FBI and Justice Dept. It's good to see US with a CEO who knows how to play harder than the swamp. The extent to which the MSM has excused this behaviour I find to be the most shocking aspect.
You're just drenched in the flavor-aid aren't you?

To think that a shambolicly corrupt entity like the Trump administration dismantling the few remaining institutions that have a shred of credibility and independence so that said corrupt administration is free to fester and become even more corrupt means you are literally radicalised. Not just pretend radicilised like you say greens supporters who accept things like climate change are, but for real. There is nothing Trump could do (apart from reversing the terrible course he has set the USA on) that would make you turn against him, and there is nothing he could say that you wouldn't believe.
07:21pm 03/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23967 posts
It would be pretty bad if Donald started spying on his political opponents using weaponised law enforcement agencies and bogus surveillance warrants.
07:40pm 03/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26210 posts
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams!
07:44pm 03/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5708 posts
Thanks for telling us about trump's approval rating from March 2017 Vash.


You're welcome. But if you're still not sure here you go.
08:32pm 03/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
897 posts
Drain swamps
10:04pm 03/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3004 posts
I read fivethirtyeight for polls Vash. And trumps polls are improving. So if you want to use polls as evidence people are finally starting to see through him (which is f*****g hilarious), well how about those education dollarydoos hey.

It would be pretty bad if Donald started spying on his political opponents using weaponised law enforcement agencies and bogus surveillance warrants.
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams!


Oh fpot. What a sad little man.

Trump's underlings meet with Russian lawyer in which no information changes hands. <-trump stole the election with Russia

Hillary campaign uses a dossier which the creator states used Russian sources as the basis for illegal domestic spying, by the admission of the people that sought the warrant. <- 9/11 was an inside job your racist.

I think someone needs to brush off the dictionary and turn to the cognitive dissonance page. you seem to be suffering it. quite badly.
12:03am 04/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5709 posts
Speaking of education dollars, i checked the fivethirtyeight polls, and i don't see any indication of improvement even from that poll. He's often reached 40% then dropped down again, and he's never recovered from the peak of 47.8% approval back in January just after the election.
Then there's the lil nugget of being the least popular first year president in modern history. But dem democrats out to getchya
12:39am 04/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3005 posts
Here is the link to his approval polls.guess we add trend lines to ways the education system failed you

But dem democrats out to getchya

Hehe. I think I'm good for advice on when something grave has happened by someone who evidently struggles with whether a line points up or down.
08:45am 04/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26215 posts
Thanks for telling us about trump's approval rating from March 2017 Vash.


You're welcome. But if you're still not sure here you go.
When you don't even need to see a person's post to know they got clowned on.
03:44pm 04/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3006 posts
When you don't even need to see a person's post to know they got clowned on.


Oh look someone else who struggles with the numerical concept of "greater than".

It's this new kind of ignoring where you read everything the person you're "ignoring" writes and passive aggressively respond through a proxy.

F*** you're just sad dude.
03:56pm 04/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5710 posts
Its too funny PP's own choice of polls demonstrates that Trump is the least popular president in modern history, and he says to look at the trends. I prefer real world data, not projections.
Do you care that an elected official says more lies than any politician we know of? Considering this alone doesn't change your opinion of him says alot about your depressing world view.
05:39pm 04/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3007 posts
I prefer real world data, not projections.


His real world data is improving vash. Go and look at the polls. 40% approval is higher than 37%. I never said he was drowning in popularity. I said his polls are improving. <- This is unequivocally factually true.

You know almost nothing about my world view Vash.

It terms of lying. Here is a 'false claim' according to politifact.

He lied about the fact of the new york times writing about the fact his campaign was subject to electronic surveillance. this counts as one of the lies of the all-time lying president.

The fact that his campaign was subject to electronic surveillance magically isn't the important part of that fact check.
07:11pm 04/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5711 posts
You know almost nothing about my world view Vash.


If your posts are any indication, i think i have a pretty good idea.

So do you actually care about the constant lying or not? Personally i hold a honest politician in high esteem, one that has good character, in touch & relatable to the people. All these things Trump is not.
So what do you look for in a politician?
09:51pm 04/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
898 posts
Do you care that an elected official says more lies than any politician we know of.


Fake news, unfounded, gross generalisation.
10:00pm 04/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3008 posts
If your posts are any indication, i think i have a pretty good idea.


no you know almost nothing.

So do you actually care about the constant lying or not?


You start listing the lies you think I should care about. Because the vast majority lies I see reported on end up being ultimately insignificant. For example Trump 'lying' about what he read in the new york times.

Here is another 'lie'. it is false that Germany needs to pay money into nato.

Whats not false is that Germany does not meet its agreed spending commitments and therefore freerides on the US under the NATO agreement and this has been a source of friction for at least a decade. But he 'lied' about having to pay money to NATO.

Politifact manages to routinely fail to see the forest for the trees in these 'fact checks'.
10:13pm 04/02/18 Permalink
Zenmaster
Queensland
42 posts
I'm beginning to think that I that I too, could successfully run for office in my local electrolate.


I'm also lolling atm as my browser has Amercian spelling filters, and apparently the word "electrolate" in not in the database of words comprehended.


"apologuise"


yep - there we go again.
10:49pm 04/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5712 posts
Whats not false is that Germany does not meet its agreed spending commitments and therefore freerides on the US under the NATO agreement and this has been a source of friction for at least a decade. But he 'lied' about having to pay money to NATO.


Well the statement is factually wrong, no money is owed from Germany. Each NATO member pays whatever they wish into their military budget. But we're going abit off track here aren't we?

Surely you're aware Trump lies often, and im sure you know already theres some lies you care about.
11:14pm 04/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3009 posts
Well the statement is factually wrong, no money is owed from Germany. Each NATO member pays whatever they wish into their military budget.
not according to NATO. Guess we can add 'factually wrong' to the list of things vash doesn't get.

But we're going abit off track here aren't we?


No we aren't and here is why.

Surely you're aware Trump lies often


The of false statements include a great many things which may be on some level technicality untrue. For example the NATO spending requirement. It is not true that member states pay into a shared fund, and so on that level (the entirely inconsequential level), it counts as a falsehood, though 'lie' requirement an intentional element which is probably a stretch.

But there is a required minimum spend of 2% of GPD which virtually no-one in Europe meets including Germany.

NATO itself on the page I linked to acknowledges there is over-reliance on US military spending and capability. So on the policy front, Trump is not only not lying. He is correct.

but it gets counted as a lie.
07:10am 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26217 posts
Yo infi, say I spent my entire life following an ideal that people always s*** on, and something big happened that validated it but people called it a dumb conspiracy theory. I'd be posting the s*** out of things from many credible sources and just owning the f*** out of the dumb f*** who just said that. It would be a really easy thing to do as well because this big thing? Totally factual and fully able to stand up to any level of scrutiny. Yet all I hear is crickets.
07:44am 05/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5713 posts
Still going off track PP. And the statement is still factually incorrect, theres no money owed to the USA.
And there is no debt incurred if a member country does not meet the minimum GDP % requirement.

I dont expect you to call out Trump at all for the many confirmed lies. But it was cute to see you try to defend him once more.
12:16pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3010 posts
We aren't off track vash because the example demonstrates that things which are true get marked as lies for Trump.

And the statement is still factually incorrect, theres no money owed to the USA.
And there is no debt incurred if a member country does not meet the minimum GDP % requirement.


Where did I say either of those things vash? Here is what I said.

Whats not false is that Germany does not meet its agreed spending commitments and therefore freerides on the US under the NATO agreement and this has been a source of friction for at least a decade.


Notice there is no discussion of debt or of money owed to the US. I said Germany doesn't meet it's spending commitments and freerides on US spending and capability. This is factually correct and acknowledged by NATO and the Germans themselves and trumps point.

I guess freeriding is another thing we can add to the list if things vash doesn't understand.

I dont expect you to call out Trump at all for the many confirmed lies.


I don't expect you to start producing meaningful examples. It's funny to watch you routinely expose your ignorance on a pelthora of topics and instead spout the expected party line, backed with the confidence only extreme idiocy combined with complete ignorance of the topic at hand can deliver.
01:55pm 05/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5714 posts
Where did I say either of those things vash? Here is what I said.


Dude really? We're not talking about what you said, we're talking about Trump's statement. You're a special one aren't you.
02:05pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3011 posts
Jesus, that is some backpedal vash.

Here is the text you quoted.
Whats not false is that Germany does not meet its agreed spending commitments and therefore freerides on the US under the NATO agreement and this has been a source of friction for at least a decade. But he 'lied' about having to pay money to NATO.


Here is what you wrote in response.

Well the statement is factually wrong, no money is owed from Germany. Each NATO member pays whatever they wish into their military budget.


You were very obviously ignorant of the minimum budget requirements seeing as you stated they didnt exist.

F*****g hell you're a singularity of stupidity and ignorance
02:22pm 05/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5715 posts
It isn't backpedalling when we're talking about Trump's statement and whether it's a lie, PP.
The statement is factually incorrect. I know you struggle with facts at times but this is laughable. There is no debt owed by Germany. Trump said they owe vast amounts of money. They don't. There is no law or contract stating they owe money.
02:31pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3012 posts
Yeah but you clearly stated member countries can contribute any amount they wish to their military budget. Which is wrong and a point I raised.

You were clearly responding to what I said vash.

But the deeper point is, which you are plainly unable to grasp, that NATO does have minimum spending requirements, Germany does not meet them and as a result relies on the US largesse for its national security. Trump is right to draw attention to this and the technical point that they don't contribute to a common fund does not undermine this.

The policy position is a correct and good one.

Hence, if you ask do I care about his lies, I respond is the lie important?

I know you struggle with higher order thought but this really shouldn't be so difficult to explain.
02:40pm 05/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39457 posts
The only way people in poverty will ever improve their plight is through commerce. Because all the aid sent there is swallowed in corruption. There is no tooth fairy.
I kind of agree actually; I'd rather teach a person to fish, kind of thing. But it's totally undeniable that the quality of life has risen world wide and a big part of that is foreign aid programmes. Despite the corruption & waste they have had a measurable impact helping 's***holes' bootstrap themselves into commerce.

It's easy to say 'why don't they just get a job/start a business/build their economy' but the reality is when you're starving in a mud house too weak from malaria to walk 15km to get a bucket of clean water while you still don't have indoor plumbing, it's kind of tricky.

I do think aid dollars could be spent better, but I feel that way about government dollars, business dollars, and my dollars, but in the meantime at least by most metrics the world is slowly improving
02:47pm 05/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5716 posts
Yeah but you clearly stated member countries can contribute any amount they wish to their military budget.


Which is correct, there is no enforcement by NATO for members who do not reach the minimum requirement, and no debt incurred for the time they spend below that requirement.

NATO is mutual defense pact, which prevents the attack by a foreign nation on one of its members. So the USA is not providing very expensive defense to Germany, but all the nations of NATO are doing so, to one another.

You can attempt to explain it for him, but that would be putting words in his mouth, wouldn't it? I thought you looked down on that kind of stuff.
03:05pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3013 posts
Which is correct, there is no enforcement by NATO for members who do not reach the minimum requirement, and no debt incurred for the time they spend below that requirement.


It just isn't vash. I know you struggle with basic concepts like 'agreement'.

Trump is looking to pressure Germany to lift it's spending. That's the enforcement mechanism. The fact that there is no makeup payments is testament to US patience in this area. Trump is telling them that it's wearing thin and so he should.

So the USA is not providing very expensive defense to Germany, but all the nations of NATO are doing so, to one another.


Yeah it is, and it's right that all member countries are supposed to contribute which is why the US (under Obama as well) has been pushing countries to do their share. Their share being a mutually agreed 2% of GDP spent on their military.

I honestly struggle to understand how you can be this thick and operate in society.

You can attempt to explain it for him, but that would be putting words in his mouth, wouldn't it? I thought you looked down on that kind of stuff.


Still struggling with the difference between strawmanning and steelmanning I see.
03:20pm 05/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23968 posts
Yet all I hear is crickets.


The Democrats have been completely discredited with Russia Collusion fake news. The MSM is going insane with their desperation to cling onto this narrative. Trump's tax cuts mean they will win the Congressional mid-term elections. There's no need to gloat. Winning is enough of a good feeling. This is the best show on earth.
06:15pm 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26218 posts
When I scan over your next post that has heaps of blue underlined text in it I'll read it.
06:17pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3014 posts
Naw look at fpot. His talking points are falling apart in front of him. He's been mistaken about almost everything and that makes captain virtuous sad in his sad place.
07:33pm 05/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23969 posts
All one has to do is look at the faces of Democrats during the SOTU address. They were determined to support nothing. Frowned at their own members wanting to clap Trump's achievements. They are low energy full of loser talk. Donald eats these kind of chumps daily. The best thing is Trump is settling into the job nicely.

Greg Sheridan puts it well in his oped. Finally after sorting out his personnel issues Trump is learning to dominate key domestic and foreign policy issues.

The Democrats are now an extreme-left wing party (more left wing than our Greens) who are more interested with retaining illegal immigrants than supporting working class Americans (just like our Greens).

If you need links to figure this out fpot then you need new batteries in your Maglite.
08:07pm 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26219 posts
So your evidence is the look on the democrats faces? This is what you have to back up your claim of a deep state coordinated conspiracy between a secret society sect of the FBI and the MSM to bring down a president for *reasons*. Oh, and a paywalled article from the lolstralian.

You're radicalised. You are relying on unfounded conspiracy theories that are weak as piss. You're the new breed of 9/11 truther.
08:36pm 05/02/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4643 posts
it sure was a mighty fine speech, and perhaps democrats should have been magnanimous enough to applaud it, and that he was able to read it all by himself with minimal ad libbing of "great" and "huge" but sadly they have long memories
08:47pm 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26220 posts
I guess I do get your eagerness about it though. Trump is you - the perennial failure who'd be eating out of a gutter if it wasn't for daddy's money. Russia is your dad - the corrupt entity getting you to places you clearly don't belong to be. The FBI are your staff - the real victims who're wondering what the f*** they did wrong to be cursed with such a bumbling fool as their boss. Your staff are powerless about the situation so they can only laugh at you behind your back.
08:51pm 05/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23970 posts
hahah this is a great post above to demonstrate how serious Trump Derangement Syndrome can get!! f*****g brilliant!
08:54pm 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26221 posts
The person demanding evidence for the far reaching multi levelled conspiracy is deranged. The person gobbling it down hiding behind adolescent defence mechanisms is not.

All that needs to happen to make this administration to become bona fide dangerous is for this stunt to succeed in dismantling his oversight and for the amount of drooling followers to reach a critical mass. That's how close we are right now to a catastrophe.
09:22pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3015 posts
What I find most hysterical of all is fpot 'ignores' me for pointing out 'treating people as chattel' is a reference to slavery and his obsession with race makes him look pretty racist, but somehow he expects a response of infi, spouting s*** like that.

Sick comeback bro.

Infi: hey looks like the FBI abused the FISC to surveil trump. The chairman of the congressional committee responsible just released a memo stating that after giving his partisan rivals and the FBI a chance to edit it (which the FBI did, and the democrats laughably claimed meant that they now couldn't release the memo because it had been materially changed).

fpot: infi is racist no wonder he likes trump so much his life story in my f*****g retarded opinion is just like infis. If you don't post a number of links to news outlets I approve (such as 'now this' or vox, but the Australian is not a good enough source that is comedy gold.) it mustn't be serious.

The person demanding evidence for the far reaching multi levelled conspiracy is deranged. The person gobbling it down hiding behind adolescent defence mechanisms is not.


Naw fpot is demanding 'evidence'. This is what it looks like when someone who is all in on trump being satan himself gets a reality check.

Just too good.

All that needs to happen to make this administration to become bona fide dangerous is for this stunt to succeed in dismantling his oversight


the FBI isn't the president's oversight fpot. they are his employees. congress is the president's oversight and they appear to be upset with the job the employees are doing. Unsurprisingly, fpot evidently doesn't know what he is talking about.
09:24pm 05/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
900 posts
TDS They have outbreaks at some universities, and a small infestation in the ABC, but this could hit plague proportions.
09:30pm 05/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26222 posts
So that's it then? Literally nothing apart from some fluff piece from the Australian of all places that I can't even read because of the paywall. Gotta say when I made that original post up there I was really expecting a challenging reply. I even took my pete script off thinking he'd at least make an attempt but nope, just his usual mewling bulls***. I can almost hear the nasally whine just from reading his s***.

So do you really have absolutely nothing?
11:13pm 05/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3016 posts
So that's it then? Literally nothing apart from some fluff piece from the Australian of all places that I can't even read because of the paywall. Gotta say when I made that original post up there I was really expecting a challenging reply. I even took my pete script off thinking he'd at least make an attempt but nope, just his usual mewling bulls***. I can almost hear the nasally whine just from reading his s***


He even took his pete script off. F*** you're funny fpot. By Pete script you mean reading everything I write and crying.

hey looks like the FBI abused the FISC to surveil trump. The chairman of the congressional committee responsible just released a memo stating that after giving his partisan rivals and the FBI a chance to edit it (which the FBI did, and the democrats laughably claimed meant that they now couldn't release the memo because it had been materially changed).


This contains more facts than the entire Russian collusion story. Fpot can't accept the truth because he is completely invested in trump being evil. So he lashes out calling people racist. I did warn you to mentally prepare yourself fpot over a year ago. Someone who calls being corrected about facts on a forum being 'gaslighted' was always likely to throw their toys out the cot when s*** didnt go their way.

The fact is the democrats had a chance to correct the memo. They didn't take it. They've released by leaking a new memo which doesn't challenge the basic facts that the stelle dossier was used and had not been (and still hasn't been) verified, and the fact it was paid for by the DNC wasn't disclosed to the court.

Instead they are trying to say that Steele was a credible source. Given that Steele was sacked by the FBI for going to press agencies and is now caught up in a libel case in the UK and has admitted under oath the dossier was unverified that argument is suspect to start with and more importantly irrelevant to whether FBI was entitled to rely on it.

Notice how fpot hasn't posted a single Link to a story explaining why the memo is a shameful attempt to distract.

He's just got his whinging b**** on. And does he have it on. Haven't heard homophobic or transphobic yet. Guess there's room for fpot to grow.
06:58am 06/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26223 posts
So I guess this is the part where Trump apologises for the stock market after helping himself to all the praise.

All good though. Got a trillion dollar loan coming in to finance the stimulus package tax cut.
08:21am 06/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3017 posts
ignore
[ig-nawr, -nohr]
verb (used with object), ig·nored, ig·nor·ing.

to refrain from noticing or recognizing: to ignore insulting remarks.


Yep a correction after a straight year of gains is the final nail in trumps coffin.
08:40am 06/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23971 posts
4% US and 2.5% Aus is a blip. It's nothing. Complaining about this when you have been making 30% for the last year is idiotic.

I've been killing it shorting the AUD. Keep on going Donald, you are building a better America.
12:50pm 06/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5717 posts
He even took his pete script off. F*** you're funny fpot. By Pete script you mean reading everything I write and crying.


Except multiple people use this script specifically for your posts. It's a shame it doesn't work on my browser. The lack of self awareness is incredible.

PornoPete can't accept the truth because he is completely invested in trump being the messiah


Works both ways.
04:55pm 06/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3018 posts
If you say so Vash. What browser do you use?
06:34pm 06/02/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21485 posts
Do you guys understand you just say the same thing at each other

It's pretty funny
08:43pm 06/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
901 posts
08:58pm 06/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3019 posts
Do you guys understand you just say the same thing at each other


I know. but it's not like there is much else to talk about, and reading the s*** that comes out of vash is a source of entertainment.
09:08pm 06/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2184 posts
09:57am 07/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5718 posts


So much winning.


It's fake. But believable.
10:38am 07/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26224 posts
03:53pm 07/02/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9566 posts
Let's just knock this on the head early, that tweet is fake, and the guy who first disseminated has even commented on how he never expected people to be so stupid as to believe it and spread it so far and wide.
06:53pm 07/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5719 posts
Let's just knock this on the head early, that tweet is fake, and the guy who first disseminated has even commented on how he never expected people to be so stupid as to believe it and spread it so far and wide.


It's not that stupid. Trump often contradicts himself with many of his previous tweets. Theres a whole sub dedicated to this called Trump criticizes Trump.
So thats why so many people believed it was real.
07:27pm 07/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
902 posts
Everyone knows he talks allot of crap. Most politicians do. If you spend energy hating on this guy, well.... he was voted in, and is supported. He might come across like a d*******, but the people want some of the things he offered. It's pretty pointless, and subscribing to far-anything propaganda will further fuel this desire to express your anger outwards. The media sensationalise things, and if we seek sensationalised content that supports our belief we will find it. But it's not a very objective way to collect information. So the spiral continues. It's self radicalisation... it's also amusing but sad at the same time. I got at least 1 friend blocked on FB for the last couple years cause he posts extreme right wing stuff.. like it's just annoying after a while.. even though I tend to favour that politically, it's kind of obsessive. Another guy is sharing all this Aussie nationalistic stuff, some of it is funny, but he is exhibiting issues I recon. It's unhealthy.
09:14pm 07/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26226 posts
The Trump is [thing] but that's okay because other politicians are also sometimes [thing] doesn't hold much water anymore I reckon because Donald Trump is an extraordinary case. It's rare because if he were a regular Joe he'd be that weird guy at work who claims he used to be in the SAS all deep cover-like. He's rich though and everyone wants a piece of that action. Just make sure there appears to be something in it for him and cash in.

I find it interesting that someone who will go out of his way to hate on something as innocuous as the Greens would give his sagely life advice on how to beat the Donald Trump blues. Why don't you tell us some more about childfree mothers?
09:47pm 07/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
903 posts
Interesting.. well obviously you don't get it. Rather than attack an individual, on-and-on, I explain my political belief. Do you get it? I see enough memes about the leader of the greens and leader of labor, but i really don't get sucked into that personal hate thing. I think it's stupid. I'm above it. Does this makes sense? or do you need it explained again in some other way? I understand that Trump comes across like a d*******, however they voted him in.. and form what I understand, you don't even f'n live there. so who gives a crap?

It's clearly TDS, it's ok, it's very common.

Some of the left carried on about Trump being divisive and using 'hate'... well... look around.
10:17pm 07/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26227 posts
The calm in all ways being of logical perfection who never gets sucked into arguments and is above it all yet defends the most indefensible of s*** and holds bizarrely contradicting viewpoints to support their argument of the day is hardly a mysterious character and is played out to death. That's why I said you should go back to your childfree mothers deranged self. You know, vulcanism, phoney pictures of university degrees, that sort of thing. It's more you.
12:14am 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3020 posts
It really is awesome watching someone who is committed to trump being evil deal with trump being regular.

Fpot is simply in capable of arguing a point. He must always resort to personal attacks typically on issues he thinks are emotionally charged.

So another memo by house committee members which the FBI had a chance to redact has been released.

The FBI asked the court to believe information based on Steele's credibility after it was known he lied to the FBI. They also didn't mention it was paid for by the DNC and the Hillary Campaign, but mentioned the information is vaguely political.

the democratic memo is going to have to release some remarkable information for the Nunes memo to have been incorrect.

link

The FBI cited Steele's credibility for a renewal after they had sacked him for talking to the press (which he told them he didn't do).
07:02am 08/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23972 posts
He must always resort to personal attacks typically on issues he thinks are emotionally charged.


This is literally the number one technique of community organisers and political activists in Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals. It's the catch all "cry racist" technique. Completely emotional and irrational.
02:12pm 08/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26228 posts
Yeah but... you do too. It's just you're a half-wit and when you try to attack someone it comes off really lame.

So anything to back up your conspiracy theory yet apart from the look on peoples faces. Perhaps you've discovered the secret handshake, or found a decoder ring? I mean I'd hate to accuse you of believing something so sensational based off a few twitter posts that weren't even made by a human. That would be emotional and irrational I reckon.
03:00pm 08/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39459 posts
Completely emotional and irrational.
bhahaah meanwhile the current POTUS is known for his level-headed and polite comments that demonstrate a level of maturity and statesmanship beyond that of his predecessors like JFK
03:42pm 08/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23973 posts
some people like military parades and some don't. i guess you don't like fireworks or christmas either.
03:55pm 08/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26229 posts
It's like strawman arguments are a bodily function for you.
03:58pm 08/02/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40982 posts
i dont like fireworks or christmas.

they are both a huge waste of money.
04:36pm 08/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23974 posts
i sometimes think spook is a mark zuckerberg-like AI.
04:40pm 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3021 posts
bhahaah meanwhile the current POTUS is known for his level-headed and polite comments that demonstrate a level of maturity and statesmanship beyond that of his predecessors like JFK


There is no more reliable guide to the effectiveness of a president than their position on military parades.

Pretty sure there is a reference to judge based on parade policy in the prince.
05:36pm 08/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39460 posts
some people like military parades and some don't. i guess you don't like fireworks or christmas either.
OR PUPPIES OR APPLE PIE. I am practically unamerican!
07:34pm 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3022 posts
08:00pm 08/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23975 posts
it's paywalled so you may wish to quote the relevant section.
09:16pm 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3023 posts
just google the title. but here is the nub anyway

Mr Trump’s antics are a comfort blanket to the cognitive elites. He validates our moral superiority. Yet he eats away at it too. Somewhere in our bourgeois subconscious is the realisation that Mr Trump is no accident. He holds up a cracked mirror to our illusions. When we mock him, he draws strength. When he provokes, we stumble. Yet we cannot help ourselves. He is deeply outrageous.

Therein lies our deepest secret. We need Mr Trump just as he needs us. It is a ghastly symbiosis. Without Mr Trump, there would be no distraction. We might be forced to examine whether we live up to our own values. Do we love the highly educated? Do they deserve by virtue of credentials to be celebrated? Or should we revisit what we mean by a fair society? Answers sought by email or Twitter — but in correct English if you please.


So I find no small irony in drawing attention to trumps supposed jingoism while quoting JFK saying confidence is silent.
09:25pm 08/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23976 posts
Greg Sheridan writes in a similar vein in the Australian:

You’ve got to admire Donald Trump’s genius for driving his opponents nuts.

A big military parade is a perfect move for Trump.

It will enrage liberal Democrats who will hate not only the idea that it might see Trump bask in some reflected military glory, but who will associate the very idea of such a parade with nationalism, xenophobia, racism, sexism, militarism etc.

But if that kind of critique becomes the predominant response from the Democrats, they will alienate themselves from the majority of the American public, who love their soldiers even more than we Australians love our soldiers.
09:37pm 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3024 posts
genius isn't the right word.

I don't think he does it intentionally, he just does stuff and happens to be extremely good at hurting progressive sensibilities. The unhinged response takes care of itself. or

confidence is silient
-JKF

-Trog
09:52pm 08/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26231 posts
It's the liberals fault that rednecks will confuse their apprehension of a rogue president's obvious distraction ploy via the use of a giant penis compensatory military parade with hating OUR TROOPS! GAWD BLESS EM
10:50pm 08/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3025 posts
It's the liberals fault that rednecks will confuse their apprehension of a rogue president's obvious distraction ploy via the use of a giant penis compensatory military parade with hating OUR TROOPS! GAWD BLESS EM


Distraction from what?

This type of response is exactly the topic of discussion. The unwashed masses will be distracted from wbat? A president doing pretty well what he said he would do? The horror.

For some so concerned about the ease of distracting "rednecks", you'd think fpot would have detailed policy rebuttals.

Yeah not so much. He's never posted about anything other than the sensational distractions.

For example he post that Nazis marched a second time in Charlottesville. But failed to mention 40 Nazis marched.

The concern about Nazis coming out of the woodwork is a distraction. Fpot bought it hook line and sinker.
07:01am 09/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
904 posts
go back to your childfree mothers deranged self. You know, vulcanism, phoney pictures of university degrees, that sort of thing. It's more you.


WTF are you on about?

Childfree mothers?

My stance on breeding humans, is that there should be prerequisites to reduce criminals and other lowlife parasites breeding. Instead we have a model where government encourages losers to breed more parasite losers.

oh and:

https://i.imgur.com/m5jAnyE.jpg
09:53am 09/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39462 posts
You’ve got to admire Donald Trump’s genius for driving his opponents nuts.

A big military parade is a perfect move for Trump.
It should not be considered an achievement for a politician to "drive his opponents nuts".

The fact that a journalist in a mainstream newspaper would write this is an astonishing reminder that our media does not care about news - they care about controversy. They can sit back and post every dumb thing any politician does now in as divisive a way possible, simply because they know it will drive traffic to their websites.

We are in a unique time in the world where - I think, and hope - it is the only possible window for someone like Trump to be in power because they are able to gain support through the vast amounts of energy that is sparking off the above process. But I think it will gradually fade because we'll find a better way to do "the news" and people will realise that you can't make informed decisions based solely on bursts of temporary outrage based on whatever weird thing happened in the last news cycle.
10:10am 09/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39463 posts
Remember, if you're disagreeing with someone these days, it means you are offended and you should simply stop being offended
10:17am 09/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5720 posts
It should not be considered an achievement for a politician to "drive his opponents nuts".


Agreed. As much as these Trumpites say how deranged everyone is, all they need to look at is how they behaved during the Obama years. Emotional & Irrational.
Most of the criticism of Trump isn't irrational, it's logical.
11:25am 09/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
905 posts
I don't think everyone is deranged, but it's clear people who are not affected, can develop the condition. Was I hating on Obama during his term? I don't think so, but TDS can inhibit judgement and objectivity, so I fully understand if that is what you perceive, looking back with biased hindsight.
11:37am 09/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3026 posts
It should not be considered an achievement for a politician to "drive his opponents nuts".

The fact that a journalist in a mainstream newspaper would write this is an astonishing reminder that our media does not care about news - they care about controversy. They can sit back and post every dumb thing any politician does now in as divisive a way possible, simply because they know it will drive traffic to their websites.


Mr Sheridan appears to be drawing attention to trumps ability to make his political opponents ineffective by driving them nuts.

For example, this ridiculous discussion about a military parade. You might find a parade vulgar, and I wouldn't disagree. But that isn't a particularly good reason not to have it, and it certainly doesn't constitute evidence of runaway authoritarianism either.

Nor is it divisive to observe the highly predictable overreaction is political useful for Trump.
11:39am 09/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23977 posts
The fact that a journalist in a mainstream newspaper would write this is an astonishing reminder that our media does not care about news - they care about controversy. They can sit back and post every dumb thing any politician does now in as divisive a way possible, simply because they know it will drive traffic to their websites.


This primarily is a direct pitch to his voter base. Irritating liberals is just a bonus. It's wedge politics in a nutshell.

Newspapers have always cared about headlines, they are in business to sell papers/clicks. The mainstream media is solely focused on generating outrage and it is not about to stop any time soon.
11:49am 09/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5721 posts
Was I hating on Obama during his term?


I'm more referring to Republican voters.

Nor is it divisive to observe the highly predictable overreaction is political useful for Trump.


Explain how its politically useful when his polls don't indicate as such? And i don't see how its making the opposing side politically ineffective by 'driving them nuts'
He controls both congress & the house.

There's plenty of irrationality about Trump's beliefs, and who knows if that will eventuate to policy. That's why people need to take what he says seriously.
11:52am 09/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3027 posts
Explain how its politically useful when his polls don't indicate as such? And i don't see how its making the opposing side politically ineffective by 'driving them nuts'
He controls both congress & the house.


His polls continue to improve vash. You can tell because the line labelled approve is going up.
12:07pm 09/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39464 posts
Newspapers have always cared about headlines, they are in business to sell papers/clicks.
Papers sold before because people depended on them as a source of information to make informed decisions. They have lost this position to the Internet - their business model has now switched almost exclusively to outrage, which they can do because the new source of revenue for them is clicks.
The mainstream media is solely focused on generating outrage and it is not about to stop any time soon.
I completely agree - for some definitions of "soon" :) There are a few factors that I think are working against them over the long term and hopefully journalists will soon be able to get back to writing news stories instead of clickbait.
12:25pm 09/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39465 posts
I'm reluctant to keep talking about Trump because f*** me really are we still talking about this f*****g a******? But as usual I'm stunned beyond belief by the way even Australian Trump fanboys can overcome their cognitive dissonance about him enough to praise him even when he mimics the exact kind of tinpot f***wit dictator that they're cheering him for badmouthing on Twitter in a way that demonstrates his total lack of statesmanship.

I can only assume that journalist in The Australian, like almost everyone else I've communicated with in Australia that has a pro-Trump attitude, has never actually spoken to an American about him outside of the Internet (i.e., statistically you were probably speaking to a Russian troll :).

I asked my American aunt (one of my favourite people in the entire world, just to get my bias disclaimed up-front) if she had any thoughts on the parade thing; I was particularly interested because a) she's an ex-US Army nurse, stationed in Germany during the Cold War (which she refers to as 'pleasant') b) her dad flew fighter planes in combat missions over the Pacific in WW2 c) her brother is a Vietnam vet. I told her I was talking to some Trump fanboys about the parade and I was interested in her opinion as a veteran; I was pretty sure I knew what she was going to say but sometimes her family have surprised me with their somewhat gung-ho attitude because of their military service so I did think there was a (tiny) chance that there might be some support for a parade.

I understand that posting anecdata is not representative of much but given that at least some people on here know me as a Real Actual Human Being, and as one too f*****g boring to actually make stuff up, I thought at least some people might find her response (a Real Actual American Human Being) interesting, just so we're not reading the same s*** from talking heads on Twitter:
1. There are Trump Fanboys in Australia? Please say it isn't so.
2. This has nothing to do with the troops. In fact it's work for them and costs money that should be spent on housing, healthcare, obviously everything else. For vets.
3. Cadet bone spurs had his chance for military parades but he chose to dodge the military. So he can go f*** himself.
4. I very rarely play the veteran card because I was not a combat veteran and had very pleasant duty, but whenever there is any kind of response elicited on this point, I always throw in my ex Army Nurse credentials as I'm explaining how horrifying this is. He is a complete and total f***tard and I'm afraid our November midterms may be our only chance to turn things around. Hence I will be out canvassing in Red Land over the weekend. Not my favorite thing to do, but it's about registering voters. I enjoyed my time in Iowa but there were some dicey moments, so I don't really look forward to this but I feel like it might be our last chance.
08:39pm 09/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3028 posts
But as usual I'm stunned beyond belief by the way even Australian Trump fanboys can overcome their cognitive dissonance about him enough to praise him even when he mimics the exact kind of tinpot f***wit dictator that they're cheering him for badmouthing on Twitter in a way that demonstrates his total lack of statesmanship.

There's those words cognitive dissonance again.

But let's step through the post.


I can only assume that journalist in The Australian, like almost everyone else I've communicated with in Australia that has a pro-Trump attitude, has never actually spoken to an American about him outside of the Internet (i.e., statistically you were probably speaking to a Russian troll).


The journalist in question is Greg Sheridan. He has been the foreign affairs editor of the Australian since 1992. his wiki page.

He cut his journalistic chops with Kerry O'Brien.

He, in forming his opinion of the military parade, as a Foreign Affairs editor of over 26 years experience, only spoke with internet talking heads who were statistically likely to be Russian trolls.

But your aunt says trumps a f***tard.

The only people who brought up the parade were trump haters.

Those words hey. Cognitive dissonance.
09:41pm 09/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26232 posts
I wish I had some anecdotal stories to tell about Trump but I don't. Even some people I know who speak favourably about One Nation seem to despise him. Now either real trump boys are a rarity or people feel compelled to keep their support quiet because to be loud about it would immediately label them dumb as s***.

I personally don't subscribe to the idea that negative press and criticism make trump stronger. It's true, the negativity could have bolstered his supporters around election time in a f*** the establishment way, but who knew just how bad it could be? I feel that if people stop talking about him his extraordinary actions could become ordinary.
10:16pm 09/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23978 posts
Speaking of cognitive dissonance, American Democrat politics has reached the point where the party seeking to enforce immigration laws passed by Congress (Republicans) are painted as the a*******, and the party literally encouraging illegal immigration (I s*** you not Nancy Pelosi thanked illegals for arriving) are painted as the heroes, condoning actual refusal of States to cooperate with Federal immigration laws.

Liberal politics in America has become insane. The Australian political discourse is mundanely centrist compared to the US. I imagine Greg Sheridan's head is spinning with the US political position. It is as spectacular as a WWF Cable special. The personalities are huge and issues are amplified at every opportunity. The environment is completely partisan. Every single issue.

Your aunt may dislike Trump but if she votes for the Democrats she is voting for an extreme-left wing party which is regressing the rules of law and more interested in the rights of illegal immigrants over the interests of American citizens. Really if you don't want to vote Republican/Trump at the moment (and there should be a viable choice) the alternative is a party of anarchists.

and remember, if someone disagrees with you, they are probably a bot.
11:31pm 09/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18525 posts
I don't think you guys quite understand what cognitive dissonance is, as it has been misused several times in the recent few pages.
12:08am 10/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3029 posts
I don't think you guys quite understand what cognitive dissonance is, as it has been misused several times in the recent few pages.


Its probably never been used correctly in this thread as a psychological term.

Trog appears to use it as a shorthand for when infi (specifically infi) appears to hold a hypocritical position.

It also gets used as a shorthand for someone holding irreconcilable views to justify their own beliefs. And by that standard trogs comments qualify in my view.

The idea that a foreign affairs reporter who has been doing that job since the Vietnam war is informed by Twitter bots and has spoken with no actual Americans, is frankly so mental the only reason I can think you'd say it is because you're so desperate to paint an innocuous event as the rise of Hitler, sober analysis must be dismissed as part of Russia stole the election.

Chuck Schumer of democratic leadership fame called for a military parade in 2014. Was he
mimics the exact kind of tinpot f***wit dictator that they're cheering him for badmouthing on Twitter in a way that demonstrates his total lack of statesmanship.


Or did everyone get that right when nobody thought anything of it?

It's one or other for both of them. The cognitive dissonance is in holding that someone who Trog obviously doesn't know must be more ignorant than him, because he doesn't hold a view trog agrees with, while ignoring the fact it's the guy's job to be more informed than trog on this specific topic (ie foreign affairs).
07:37am 10/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23979 posts
yeah cos only tinpot f***wit dictators have military parade. on the scale of retarded comments, that one is up there.

and the constant twitter bot references is laughable.
09:51am 10/02/18 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1561 posts
10:20am 10/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26233 posts
yeah cos only tinpot f***wit dictators have military parade. on the scale of retarded comments, that one is up there.
I guess you have to factor in the timing and surrounding circumstances. The ongoing criminal investigation into the president of the united states, the disastrous attempt at interference with that joke of a memo, the repeated shut downs of the government, the record low approval ratings, the negative stock market activity. I could go on because it's really fun but I won't.

Here's a question about twitter bots - have you ever looked into it yourself? Because it's a provable claim that there is a strong contingent of support for trump and it's coming from twitter bots of a Russian origin. It's really easy to find actually. Go and have a look yourself and if you can't come up with anything I'll help you.

edit: oh I follow a bunch on twitter and you pretty much dance to their tune. You use their arguments and you mimic the terms they use. Like a good little doggy.

edit2: for example, the twitter bot excuse for trump not declassifying the democrat memo is because the democrats deliberately placed sensitive information in it so they'd know it wouldn't be released to manufacture a political scandal. And you'd be believing this right?
01:12pm 10/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18526 posts
Part of the definition of Cognitive Dissonance includes a distinct feeling of mental and even physical discomfort due to these conflicting thoughts.

Once a person 'solves' that conflict through whatever means, there is no-longer discomfort and thus no cognitive dissonance. Most people solve it by avoidance, choosing to remain ignorant, elimination and/or distortion of perception.

So by definition, a person suffering from cognitive dissonance (and feeling the discomfort that comes with it) is, at that time at least, aware of the conflicting thoughts and/or beliefs.

People really don't like that discomfort, so trying to get a person to regain awareness of any conflicts they hold is often met with resistance, the force of that resistance reflects the strength of the discomfort from the internal conflict.
Thus it is often wasted effort to try logically convince people of various factors involved in the conflict, the method to 'solve' it adapts. As evident by this continuing threat that gets absolutely nowhere.
Every now and then, a person seemingly by sheer luck, gains a solution that is consistent with their beliefs and there is no longer any conflict at all.



Some unfortunate souls are acutely aware of these conflicting thoughts/beliefs and cannot reliably 'solve' it to the point of ceasing the discomfort for any reasonable length of time and the conflict is carried almost constantly from one to the next.

So that is a little lesson on cognitive dissonance for everyone, hooray for learning!
03:29pm 10/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39466 posts
I don't think you guys quite understand what cognitive dissonance is, as it has been misused several times in the recent few pages.
I might have been guilty of it once or twice but above I meant it in the sense that normally these people would be making Rocket Man jokes about NK waving their d*** around with their parades laughing at their inept display of military superiority etc etc - but as soon as Trump suggests it, it's suddenly a great display of statesmanship and military might and blahblahblah. These are two conflicting points of view that they have to maintain
Some unfortunate souls are acutely aware of these conflicting thoughts/beliefs and cannot reliably 'solve' it to the point of ceasing the discomfort for any reasonable length of time and the conflict is carried almost constantly from one to the next.
This is how I feel all the time!! Striving for consistency in all things is hard without compromise.
04:58pm 10/02/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4644 posts
He might come across like a d*******, but the people want some of the things he offered.

you have to be kidding me, absolutely everyone who voted for this unreconstructed asshat needs to take a good long look at themselves

or, maybe not? who cares, the sun is going to explode and consume us all relatively soon anyway
05:00pm 10/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3030 posts
Thanks Toll

I meant it in the sense that normally these people would be making Rocket Man jokes about NK waving their d*** around with their parades laughing at their inept display of military superiority etc etc - but as soon as Trump suggests it, it's suddenly a great display of statesmanship and military might and blahblahblah.


How in the name of all that's holy did you reach that conclusion based on Sheridan's quote or literally anything anyone's said on this forum in respect of the military parade.
05:36pm 10/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23981 posts
oh I follow a bunch on twitter and you pretty much dance to their tune. You use their arguments and you mimic the terms they use. Like a good little doggy.


So are they bots then or just pro-trump humans?
08:18pm 10/02/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7811 posts
08:57pm 10/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26234 posts
Obviously there are both. If you haven't already, go to twitter and follow a few well followed pro-trump twitters that you're sure are human. I won't mention names but they should be really easy to find. You'll be immediately swarmed by bots asking to be followed.

Or just type russian twitter bot influence or variant into google to save yourself asking stupid questions. Beware of the numerous articles detailing a Russian campaign to use bot accounts on social media networks to influence people. They're part of an FBI/CNN conspiracy to bring down the president of the USA so war-criminal Clinton can be sworn in
09:23pm 10/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
906 posts
Lets talk about Trump some more.
08:05pm 11/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3031 posts
Or just type russian twitter bot influence or variant into google to save yourself asking stupid questions. Beware of the numerous articles detailing a Russian campaign to use bot accounts on social media networks to influence people.


The links in that list are all very light of detail and seem to forget one brand of Twitter bit was black lives matter bots. I guess if BLM arguments turn up on a Russian bots feed we can safely ignore anything BLM say.

But here is the key word in that paragraph. influence. Note how it doesn't start with c.

So all fpot is asking you to believe is that Trump and Putin got on the phone had a good old chat about how to steal the election and what they arrived at was paying a bunch of Cypriot nerds to retweet black lives matter. On a platform the key demographic doesn't appear to use.

So how about Adam Schiff hey. He is now claiming Nunes secretly changed his memo to include sensitive material.

Guess when trump says it contains sensitive material he isn't lying. The guy who wrote is now saying it contains sensitive material.

We already know the content of the memo anyway. It's going to go something like this.

Chris Steele had a good record of providing information. Based on that the FBI didn't attempt to verify his claims.

Chris Steele is an expert on Russian crime. Therefore relying on his word instead of verifying his claims wasn't naughty.

I don't expect fpot to be able to understand the hearsay rule or the expert opinion rule. He is a little slow after all and the hearsay rule is acknowledged to be difficult to properly understand. Nor do I expect him to place significance on the fact that to get a FISA warrant on a US national you have to show both the person is likely to be a foreign agent AND they are likely committing a crime. Carter page has never been charged.

In fact the only charges to have been brought have been process charges.
07:57am 12/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3355 posts

"Gays are destroying marriage" Joyce tells pregnant mistress while watching an episode of Channel 9's Married at First Sight.

http://www.chaser.com.au/national/gays-are-destryoing-marriage-joyce-tells-pregnant-mistress/


02:41pm 13/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3356 posts

Meanwhile, as Trump holds military rallies;

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/what-are-the-biggest-threats-to-australia-s-peace-and-security

Dr Malcolm Davis from Canberra think tank the Australian Strategic Policy Institute:
The unpredictability of the Trump administration itself offers huge challenges for Australia, he said.
Danielle Cave, a senior analyst at the International Cyber Policy Centre in Canberra, said covert cyber-enabled influence campaigns are a major new threat to Australia and other liberal western democracies, particularly during elections.

"We saw the 2016 US election, Russia ran a really sophisticated cyber interference operation," she said. "There has been similar issues coming up in Brexit and a variety of European nations. That's going to be a really big issue going forward," citing China's covert political influence operations which have received attention recently in Taiwan and Australia



Boy I'm glad trumpets like infi voted in their nationalistic psychopath to threaten nuclear war on twitter and downplay the cybersecurity threats of Russia and China

But hey foreign aid programme inefficiencies are the real evil here right troggles?


03:07pm 13/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3357 posts
Better yet, let's blame foreign aid itself and the NGO sector, rather than say, policy conflicts where we both train workers through foreign development at the same time as offering incentives and making restrictive policies biased towards skilled immigration

'But they're just s***hole countries! No I'm not racist!'
03:13pm 13/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3032 posts
"Gays are destroying marriage" Joyce tells pregnant mistress while watching an episode of Channel 9's Married at First Sight.


Nothing says phooks doesn't hate gay people like reposting a vicious antigay screed from a satirical antigay website.

Why do you hate gay people so much phooks?
06:31pm 13/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23982 posts
Is it a full moon? Phooks' monthly rant has arrived. Alleging Trump doesn't care about cybersecurity when as far as I know he has maintained all US goverrnment cyber-security efforts.

Foreign aid is a means of taking money from poor people in rich countries to give to rich people in poor countries. It benefits corrupt governments and local supplier rent-seekers. It's predictable that you support such liberal retardation.

Thanks for raising NGOs, we have all heasrd about Oxfam and their use of prostitutes in Haiti - they have taken engaging in local commerce to grow the economy too far.

See ya next month ya crazy bastard.

Scandal the tip of the iceberg. What a nice industry.
06:52pm 13/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26235 posts
Yeah posting an expert opinion on cyber security is so crazy! I guess when you believe conspiracy theories that no expert with a shred of credibility will lend any credence to it is. Kind of reminds me of the time trump retweeted a twitter bot. We're in good hands people!

And what's an infi post without a 'a thing did something bad once. That means all things even if they're different are also bad'. See also, labour unions.

Still nothing on the conspiracy theory except for the (lol) looks on peoples faces as they were all being bulls***ted to at the SOTU?
08:09pm 13/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23983 posts
The article Phooks posted doesnt even say anything about Trump. It's a beautiful piece of flim-flam. It referenced global uncertainty.

Still nothing on Trump and Russia. Fpot and the whole fake news industry are hoping and praying something will come up, like watching the ball bounce around the roulette table. Just hoping... and praying.... SAD.
08:17pm 13/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26236 posts
Dude my cards are on the table. I admit that all there is is circumstantial evidence at this stage. I want the investigation to continue to the end without interference and for all parties involved to cooperate as much as possible while still having their constitutional rights upheld. You want it interfered with and halted because you're scared that one day you'll have to admit you supported, nay, worshipped, a bona fide fascist dictator. Because if it eventually comes out that trump colluded with Russia or even that Russia influenced the election to the extent that the election result was illegitimate that's what you've done. Not that you'll admit it even then, it will still be some kind of conspiracy but somewhere in that peppercorn of a heart and peanut of a brain you'll know.

edit: I think it is only fair to say that if I was forced to make a bet I'd bet that Russia did interfere with the election, that trump knew about it but took nil or little part in it. Pretty standard procedure in a criminal organisation. Keep the guy at the top as clean as possible.
08:23pm 13/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18527 posts

Foreign aid is a means of taking money from poor people in rich countries to give to rich people in poor countries. It benefits corrupt governments and local supplier rent-seekers. It's predictable that you support such liberal retardation.


Whilst part of what you say is probably true the other part is that at least some of that aid does get to people in need. That is infinitely better than nothing at all.
So if the choice is inefficient, wasteful aid or no aid at all ... well f***, inefficient it is.
You may be annoyed that an invisible part of your tax, an amount that has a barely perceptible impact on your lifestyle and well being is being used to significantly enhance someone else's.

That is what you are essentially saying.
08:39pm 13/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3033 posts
I think it is only fair to say that if I was forced to make a bet I'd bet that Russia did interfere with the election, that trump knew about it but took nil or little part in it. Pretty standard procedure in a criminal organisation. Keep the guy at the top as clean as possible.


Trump having no involvement at all proves his guilt. Fpot likes to accuse infi of being a 9/11 truther but says s*** like that?

TDS has completely consumed this specimen. Please fetch us a new one
09:02pm 13/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3358 posts
Is it a full moon? Phooks' monthly rant has arrived.


Witness my words and despair, ye naught but mighty

So what about trumps nuclear threats on twitter infi? I noticed you skipped over that part
12:11am 14/02/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3362 posts
The over hyped frenzy around the supposed, and seemingly sorely lacking in reality, Russia collusion was a big mistake, still, Trump kind of deserves it for the whole birther thing against Obama. Karma brah!
05:54am 14/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3034 posts
Trump kind of deserves it for the whole birther thing against Obama.


Perhaps but is that the standard multiple papers of record claim to hold for themselves? Peddlers of baseless conspiracy? They don't get to whinge about trumps attacks on their credibility and push s*** like this for over a year.
07:04am 14/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23984 posts
The grassley-graham memo vindicates the core claim of the nunes memo. It was written a month before the nunes memo so it is not possible it was written as a post-hoc justification.

It refers Chris Steele to the DOJ for prosecution for lying to the FBI and that the FBI must have known this while seeking further FISA renewals.

It confirms that the Steele Dossier was central to establishing probable cause.

It confirms the material in the Steele Dossier was accepted on by the court on the strength of the FBI vouching for Steele's credibility.

It confirms the FBI didn't inform the court, in straightforward violation of their duty of candour precisely because the opposing party doesn't get a chance to review the claims, that the opposing presidential campaign paid for the dossier.

It confirms the FBI vouched for Steele's credibility in the fourth renewal after they had sacked him for leaking to the press. Meaning after 4 warrants of 90 days, they had obtained no stand-alone evidence and were still relying on Steele's credibility.

The Jerry Nadler memo does not rebut a single one of these claims, and together they constitute a serious abuse of FISC process.

After a year of investigation, two people have been charged with lying to the FBI but no other crimes. In Flynn's case, he didn't do anything illegal at all except lie to the FBI that he'd done it.

If you don't have credible rebuttals for * every one* of the things verified by the grassley-graham memo, it is you who are living in conspiracy land.

But yeah, i'm just peddling wild conspiracies.

#RussiaCollusion is a nothing-burger. As CNN producers secretly admitted on hidden camera. Washington is rotten to the core.

So what about trumps nuclear threats on twitter infi? I noticed you skipped over that part


had the world fallen in a heap yet? nah. just more chicken little. THE SKY IS FALLING. Oh and NK and America are now open to talks. Wow would you look at that. 4dchess at its best.
10:43am 14/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
907 posts
One of my kids told me the teacher at school said "Our teacher said if you like trees you should vote for the greens". I explained.. "We all like trees. I like trees and just about all of our politicians would like trees." So then she asks "So why did she say vote greens if you like trees?".. And I said "Cause she's been brainwashed." "What's brainwashing dad"... "well it's forced learning through repetition generally. Some people are more susceptible to it than others".

It's easy to brainwash when you polarise things into good and evil, using basic instincts like guilt, love, hate, anger. In fact hate and anger are far more primitive feels. In anger, the mind is not functioning at it's potential.

Take the TDS test
07:42pm 14/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26238 posts
Another totally true story from NMag. Thanks mate!

infi: is this the memo you're talking about?

found the right one
10:49pm 14/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26239 posts
Found a link to the memo and an anaylsis of it here. I read both.

Your above claims all appear to be true. The analysis I read indicates some contradictions between the GG and N memo but I guess at this stage it is unknown if they're of any consequence.

None of it proves that Steele fabricated anything though. Certain elements of the dossier have been confirmed publically. In a battle of who is more credible it would take an incredible (teehee) person to lose to trump or anyone who works for him.

The main thing I don't get - why would the FBI put themselves on the line like this? What have they got to gain from staking their entire reputation and organisation on discredting trump? To be honest, I always thought the FBI were the friend of right-leaning governments but I could be completely wrong on that one. A claim could be made that certain key people in the organisation were bribed but where's the evidence for that?

So at this stage we have circumstantial evidence and people lying to the FBI on both sides. I find it much more plausible that trump, a man of zero credibility, would engage or knowingly receive benefit from fraudulent activities of this rather extreme nature. I find it highly implausible that the FBI would all of a sudden drop its standards and risk everything to keep trump out of office. What's your explanation for that, by the way? That also applies to Steele and Fusion GPS. What do they have to benefit from all this? In the end, researching trump was just another job for them. Why all of a sudden are they engaging in wholesale fraud?

Thanks for finally posting something substantial though [/notsarcasm]
12:31am 15/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3035 posts
None of it proves that Steele fabricated anything though. Certain elements of the dossier have been confirmed publically. In a battle of who is more credible it would take an incredible (teehee) person to lose to trump or anyone who works for him.


Someone doesn't understand the hearsay rule.

It's not a battle of who's more credible. Facts can't be established by hearsay. Steele has admitted in UK litigation the content of the memo were unverified.

The suspect doesn't have to prove allegations aren't true. That is a literal inversion of the justice system.

If the FBI can't show the allegations are true the FBI has nothing.

Put simply the FBI relying on an informant's credibility for anything the informant didn't witness in person is an abuse of process

Failing to inform the court that you've sacked him for leaking and lying about it, is a scandal.

Failing to inform the court that the lying non-witness is on the employ of the opposite campaign is nothing short of outrageous.

Trump s credibility has nothing to do with anything.

But again this all legal guff which is probably a bit beyond fpot.


So at this stage we have circumstantial evidence and people lying to the FBI on both sides.


Yeah only one sides lies are used to authorise the FBI spying on a presidential campaign. One these things is not like the other.
07:10am 15/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26240 posts
In other news, trump's lawyer paid a porn star $130000 for something that totally wasn't hush money and there has been another mass shooting this time in Florida. I wonder if this time they'll start thinking about doing something about that?
07:30am 15/02/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40985 posts
nope!

more guns will always be the answer to more shootings.

if the teachers/students had more guns, they would have been able to stop this tragedy sooner!
08:32am 15/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39470 posts
Can we talk about Barnaby for a while?!?!
10:11am 15/02/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21489 posts
would you bang his new missus? y/n

probably

if i was 50, definitley
01:58pm 15/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3359 posts
Can we talk about Barnaby for a while?!?!


Sure. He's representative of a side of Australian politics which, for instance, continues to disregard the systemic and cultural effects of colonisation on our first peoples.

oh wait you meant the affair thing. yeah he's a c*** to his family as well I guess
02:53pm 15/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3360 posts
would you bang his new missus? y/n probably if i was 50, definitley


LOL!!!!!!!!
02:53pm 15/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3361 posts
So what about trumps nuclear threats on twitter infi? I noticed you skipped over that part

had the world fallen in a heap yet? nah. just more chicken little. THE SKY IS FALLING. Oh and NK and America are now open to talks. Wow would you look at that. 4dchess at its best.


You may find this shocking, but one of my mates has different opinion to you. After completing her bachelors in international relations, she did her phd on nuclear warfare and political strategy. But im sure she's wrong, and that you and trump know much better, and his tweet was a great '4d chess move' as you describe
02:59pm 15/02/18 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3362 posts
The main thing I don't get - why would the FBI put themselves on the line like this? What have they got to gain from staking their entire reputation and organisation on discredting trump? To be honest, I always thought the FBI were the friend of right-leaning governments but I could be completely wrong on that one.


The intelligence community is not very fond of Trump, as a whole.

I would hazard that while most of them understand he's behaving pretty typically for a business executive, he really pissed off the FBI when he fired Comey. It was very unexpected for them and he had a good amount of respect internally.
03:08pm 15/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23985 posts
The main thing I don't get - why would the FBI put themselves on the line like this?


Firstly all the things I wrote have already been covered in this thread.

The Deep State does not like people who question its absolute authority. Trump prides himself on if anything being hjis own man, someone who will not just sign off on violation of individual rights (something Obama willingly did daily).

Tucker Carlson's show from today comprehensively outlines a range of Steele allegations which are unproven. The Dossier alleges Trump was a Russian asset cultivated for their use once he won the Presidency. It's laughable. The Dossier is a partisan document paid for by the DNC and then used by the FBI to support FISA warrants. Surely on any scale of ethics that is scandalous.

Mueller should be required to issued a prosecution immediately otherwise the whole thing should be shut down. It is a disgraceful abuse of process.

Can we talk about Barnaby for a while?!?!


I don't see what it has got to do with politics... Let the voters be the judge.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DV9qXBdU8AAvAH8.jpg:large
04:27pm 15/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26241 posts
What is the 'deep state'? How has trump questioned the deep state's authority? Who is in charge of the deep state?

edit! whataboutisms! A new and fresh argument tactic from our trump loving friends.
04:37pm 15/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39472 posts
04:43pm 15/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23986 posts
Deep State are the multitude of federal unelected intelligence agencies that actually run national security policy regardless of the President in power (usually). Career boffins who see themselves as the country's actual Trustees. They have virtually no oversight, massive surveillance powers, and plentiful unchecked resources. A President would be foolish to fire a blatantly partisan Director. Ooops.
04:46pm 15/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39473 posts
I don't see what it has got to do with politics... Let the voters be the judge.
Well the main thing (maybe the only thing) that seems to keep coming up is whether a) he used connections/pressure to get her multiple jobs b) whether tax payer dollars were involved in their relationship.

There is maybe also c) he was [allegedly] throwing down the family value card pretty hard during the SSM debate; hypocrisy by politicians is nothing new though so it kind of just glazes my eyes over, but if you're a conservative family loving t-wearing voter, you might care a little more.

a) and b) are pretty important but I really find it hard to believe someone in position was careless about money in this kind of situation (he was an accountant in his previous life, right?) so it might just all be a big beat-up
04:52pm 15/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23987 posts
Well the main thing (maybe the only thing) that seems to keep coming up is whether a) he used connections/pressure to get her multiple jobs b) whether tax payer dollars were involved in their relationship.


agree, any proof of rorting will see him sacked from Cabinet.

hypocrisy by politicians is nothing new though


agree
05:05pm 15/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26242 posts
Okay, but how has trump questioned their authority? Also, who is in charge? Are you sure trump values the rights of the individual because I could bring up examples where he definitely doesn't.

edit: f***ed up the original post. Did it while cooking and it's hot as balls.
05:10pm 15/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3036 posts
would you bang his new missus? y/n probably if i was 50, definitley



LOL!!!!!!!!


Oh look phooks is a raging misogynist aswell. Laughing about a woman being treated as a sex object. You might as well have killed her with such an antiwoman screed phooks.

So why do you hate women and gays so much phooks?
06:16pm 15/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3037 posts
Twitter bots have an almost unmeasurable effect on people's vote.

Gee good thing a special counsel was appointed to figure out how many useless Facebook ads Russia bought.

It's almost like 'Russia stealing the election' is a way of refusing to understand what happened in 2016.
06:51am 16/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18528 posts
I don't know about you guys, but I prefer people who are honest and have moral and ethical integrity to be making major decisions about mine and my countries well being. Decisions that effect the health and wellbeing of millions.

I'm not sure why people are willing to turn a blind eye to obvious unethical and reprehensible behaviour. Remember the MP's have 'The Honourable' title in their name as a reminder of their position and what it means to be a leader of a nation.

Just think about how weird it is, that a Prime Minster of a 1st world country has to directly ban his most significant ministers from having questionable power-relations with staff members. That they are not able to exercise proper judgement and ethical behaviour to not do it without being directed not to...

Seriously, how does that not concern people?
09:05am 16/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18529 posts

"The way these two men are behaving, neither of them are fit today for the high office they currently hold," Mr Shorten said.


That sentence should probably be more like this:

"The way these two men are behaving, neither of them are fit today for the high office they currently hold, please excuse me whilst I sink a boot in their side. Perhaps my fitness for office should be questioned too," Mr Shorten said.
02:06pm 16/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23988 posts
Shorten did the exact same thing (slept with another woman while married). Urgh, let it go.
02:08pm 16/02/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21490 posts
Shorten did the exact same thing (slept with another woman while married). Urgh, let it go.M


his quote wasn't a shot at liberal or labour
02:15pm 16/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
909 posts
Another totally true story from NMag. Thanks mate!


True story, and common story. In fact she also showed 2 youtube videos (unrated) to primary school children about animal cruelty and asking the kids afterwards to make a pledge on a website. Pledge had about 5 options, top one being "I'll never eat meat again". Kids had mixed reactions. Some parents were not happy. There were possible options for a class action.

She also provided the kids with a few more views from her ideologies. Kids came home with some questions about "Why is Trump bad?" etc.

Parents reacted. She no longer works there.

I think the Aboriginal guilt thing she put on the kids is probably in the curriculum.

My wife and I treated the kids for TDS and other common issues just in case they were affected. The normal calibration stuff... The kind of stuff that would make fpot lose it completely, and Vash to lose it even more.

Just another radicalised school teacher from our radicalisation factories.. the local universities. She probbaly went off on sick leave with a bad case of TDS... and she's not an American tax payer OR even an American voter... just like me, and you? and vash?. It can strike all over the world and is contagious.

It's a story about how being radicalised can have an adverse impact on an individuals life when they lose the ability to remain objective.. and maintain rational thought. TDS, serious stuff.. see your doctor if symptoms persist. It's possible the poor lady had a history of letting her emotions come in the way of clear logical thought.
05:46pm 16/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26243 posts
Yep totally true dude.

Imagine having a life so s*** and devoid of meaning that you'd need to constantly lie about it on an internet gaming forum. Dear god the horror.
06:10pm 16/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2185 posts

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/when-the-next-financial-crisis-hits-there-will-be-little-the-rba-can-do-about-it-20180215-p4z0f1.html

Reserve bank is out of levers to pull. Unless negative interest rates here too.

Of course, it should also be recognised that the GFC was itself essentially created by excess liquidity; Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan held US rates too low, for too long, causing a global quest for yield, resulting in a mountain of debt that was built on the securitisation and financial engineering of high risk sub-prime housing loans and other securities.


This bit is interesting, however the equity markets have been really good the last 2 years. Maybe that is why housing is cooling now.
06:36pm 16/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5722 posts
Usual Nmag drivel


Sounds like the teacher was wise to educate kids on the impacts to the environment that meat production has. It's good to try to push our next generation to eat less meat.

It's unfortunate that morality & education of real world problems being pushed to kids is seen as radicalisation, but i guess thats the world we currently live in today with Trump as head of the USA.

I think the Aboriginal guilt thing she put on the kids is probably in the curriculum.


And he talks of rational thought...

There's a name for a symptom in mental illness when it comes to people who dont care to look at Trump's policies & thoughts, and the negative impact he is having on not only American society, but the world.
Apathy.
10:10pm 16/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
910 posts
fpot thinks I'm making this stuff up. I've seen people at work with TDS blurt stuff out that's completely inappropriate... they are so deluded and brimming with hatred for Trump that they can't contain it in for a full shift.

Tell me about the negative impact Trump is having on Sydney NSW for example? I think our local governments have more impact on what goes on here than what rubbish Trump is tweeting.
01:34am 17/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3038 posts
Mueller indicts 13 people for attempting to influence the campaign in favour of sanders and trump. They ran rallies in favour of trump and in favour of Clinton after the election. No American knowingly helped them. No indication they were in anyway successful in altering the outcome.

So not only is 'Russia stole the election' a way for people to refuse to deal with 2016. Its almost certainly a goal of the Russian attempt to influence the 2016 election.

Someone get a box of tissues and a DVD of dirty dancing for fpot. It's going to be a long weekend.
11:03am 17/02/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18530 posts
I'm not sure Nmag if you are retelling the same stories or if you are contentiously coming up against the sort of stuff you describe.

Are you sure you aren't projecting dude? I mean, more than the usual amount people do?


It's a story about how being radicalised can have an adverse impact on an individuals life when they lose the ability to remain objective.. and maintain rational thought. TDS, serious stuff.. see your doctor if symptoms persist. It's possible the poor lady had a history of letting her emotions come in the way of clear logical thought.


Emotion can't be separated out from rational thought, our brains just don't work that way. You can delude yourself to pretend it has, but it is still there. Are you sure you are not overcompensating, ironically allowing your emotions to come in the way of what feels like clear logical thought?
11:26am 17/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23989 posts
This bit is interesting, however the equity markets have been really good the last 2 years.


the equity markets are not an indicator of economic health. equities is an emotional dating site for sellers of shares. one day it's up and another day it's down.

equities have been on a tear for the last two years (but far more than that really) because the Fed has been printing money and buying all sorts of s***** investments (toxic assets) from banks. They are buying the s***** assets with good money. The banks then use this good money to lend out another 10x that good money and then make a s*** ton of profits based from the money the Fed gave them. The European Central Bank has also been doing this. I think the amount on the Fed bought in toxic assets through QE1 2 and 3 is about $3tr. now times that by 10 and it gives you an idea how much money has gone directly into the equities market pumping up shares that are not actually worth anything more than before the QE began.

Stefan Molyneux explains it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUu3IH_tvt0

Now that the US Fed has stopped QE and has started an interest rate tightening cycle, expect assets to fall and volatility to rise. Combine this with tax breaks and increasing inflation and I expect market conditions in the US to be chaotic because the players do not know whether the economy should be slowing or speeding up..
04:23pm 17/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
911 posts
I'm not sure Nmag if you are retelling the same stories


Just an example of a nutter who justified passing on her (breach of policy) beliefs to primary school students, and got consequence for her behaviour. It's not justified even if she thinks/thought in her head that it is.

You can be aware of how bias and emotion is playing in behaviour and make effort to recognise and consider it in choices. You might not be able to turn it on and off, but you can make effort to check for it. Embracing the emotion and having it further cloud judgement is unlikely to be help with decision making.
09:02pm 17/02/18 Permalink
taggs
6538 posts
The problem with the Steele dossier is not that he was unable to verify any of it, it was that the FBI didn't make this clear when using it as evidence to seek a FISA warrant.

The issue is that the Nunes memo makes clear that Steele is relaying information from other sources without verifying the veracity of that information. It makes no difference whether Steele himself is a trustworthy source of information or not (which by many accounts he isn't) because he isn't the source.

For the purposes of the warrant the sources of information are Steele's "informants" who are at times admittedly three or four times removed from the alledged incidents making them well and truly caught within the well understood hearsay rules of evidence. From a prosecutorial point of view It doesn't matter whether Steele himself is credible or not only whether his informants were or not (i.e. concept of vicarious credibility) - which the Nunes memo makes clear that the FBI made no effort whatsoever to corroborate or evidence in any way.

Easy to jump to conspiracy theories when bureaucratic incompetence is more likely but when you put fuel on the fire hard to complain when it burns.
11:28pm 17/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3039 posts
Easy to jump to conspiracy theories when bureaucratic incompetence is more likely but when you put fuel on the fire hard to complain when it burns.


It seems unlikely it was the case that Hillary was directing any of it (other than getting the document created). But I do think very senior people at the FBI expressed a preference for Hillary. And I get it, Trump seems to lurch from crisis to crisis.

The most likely explanation, is that firstly the people involved thought (like virtually everyone else) there was no way trump was getting elected and so thought less of bending the rules because it wouldn't come to light if Hillary had won (and lets not forget the FBI have bent FISC process before, secret courts in general are a bad idea), and secondly a general willingness to believe the very worst of trump (and this is in no short supply either) got the better of their judgment. The Steele Dossier is so obviously ridiculous I can't see how a person could believe it unless on some level they wanted it to be true.

In any event, spying on a presidential campaign should have been thrown out unless there was a mountain of hard evidence of *criminal* wrongdoing. IE the FBI needed to be basically checking boxes on what was otherwise a slam dunk prosecution.

A fishing expedition on a presidential campaign is inexcusable, and there should be high profile sackings as a result of this.
08:49am 18/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23992 posts
Which then begs the question why did Trump permit sessions to initiate the investigation....

Perhaps he is so far ahead of his adversaries he has already war-gamed his innocence out to be a major re-election benefit. Truly 4d chess.
09:57am 18/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26246 posts
Perhaps he is so far ahead of his adversaries he has already war-gamed his innocence out to be a major re-election benefit. Truly 4d chess.
heh
05:49pm 18/02/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7813 posts
Pack 'em into NSW and VIC. To hell with planning, lets f*ck Australia for the Oligarchs.

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/02/leith-van-onselen-tackles-growth-lobby-monster/#comment-3051840




09:31am 19/02/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9570 posts
The problem I have with our immigration policies is that they're pretty unrestricted and open.

Why can't we have policies that say "sure, you can come here - but you can't live here, here or here". To have rules that say if people want to move to Australia, they can't live in certain cities (eg, capital cities), helping growth of regional towns? Couldn't a growing Albury or Pemberton or Horsham be good for the country?
10:16am 19/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39474 posts
The problem I have with our immigration policies is that they're pretty unrestricted and open.
Wat? Do you know many people that have immigrated here? it's hard work to get into this country as an immigrant.
Why can't we have policies that say "sure, you can come here - but you can't live here, here or here". To have rules that say if people want to move to Australia, they can't live in certain cities (eg, capital cities), helping growth of regional towns? Couldn't a growing Albury or Pemberton or Horsham be good for the country?
We have these exact policies. Check out the "Skilled Regional (Provisional) visa" programme. I can't remember the breakdown but my recollection is these account for a decent chunk of the "intake".
12:57pm 19/02/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9571 posts
And yet we seem to have a f***ton of non-citizens living in metropolitan areas and capital cities. And given the standards of the employees I see coming in, the standard is pretty bloody low for IT work.
01:38pm 19/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26248 posts
And yet we seem to have a f***ton of non-citizens living in metropolitan areas and capital cities. And given the standards of the employees I see coming in, the standard is pretty bloody low for IT work.
So your belief from the 'employees you see coming in' is that the work ethic/quality of migrants is poor, and that these people with poor work ethic/quality should be forced to live in regional towns where a strong economy doesn't exist to support them. Instead of moving into a capital city or major metropolitan area where greater options exist for employment and a strong(er) economy exists so these, as you put it, low standard migrants, won't have such a negative impact?
06:04pm 19/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39475 posts
And given the standards of the employees I see coming in, the standard is pretty bloody low for IT work.
dunno if that has anything to do with Australia's visa system, sounds like it's much more of a problem with the hiring practices in the companies where you're seeing these people!
06:55pm 19/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26252 posts
S*** if I was dead against political violence to the point I'd get angry and develop personal vendettas against those who are perhaps nonchalant about intimidation and violence being used against nazis (which must be a really hard thing to do and be testing my noble resolve to its absolute limits) I'd be pretty f*****g angry right now about George Christensen's incitement of violence and implied death threat towards members of the Greens party. That is of course unless the burning passion that flares so brightly I can't help but fall head over heels to defend the absolute worst society has to offer is in fact a steaming pile of bulls*** providing a smoke screen for my own personal views. Then there'd be dead silence.
09:36pm 19/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3044 posts
I was really super into human rights, to the point that I'd call people racist for suggesting not all immigrants are as skilled as they might be, I'd be pretty upset at the media fawning over a woman who is wanted for crimes against humanity.

If it was just a bulls*** smokescreen for me to feel morally superior because I'm a failure in life, well then there'd be dead silence.

would probably also explain why I can't tell the difference between a photo and physically attacking people.
10:18pm 19/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23993 posts
I thought it was lulzy. The fun police are in full effect these days in Australia.
10:26pm 19/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39478 posts
indeed, if you don't like our politicians posting pictures of themselves with guns making thinly veiled threats against other politicians whose views they disagree with you are the "fun police"
12:00pm 20/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3046 posts
if you don't like our politicians posting pictures of themselves with guns making thinly veiled threats against other politicians whose views they disagree with you are the "fun police"


Just for the class troggles. Step through the "thinly veiled threat" as opposed to the inappropriate joke an MP shouldn't be making.
12:14pm 20/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23994 posts
yeah George was gonna go postal! Watch out!
12:49pm 20/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3047 posts
study finds left wing authoritarians and decades of bias in 'right wing authoritarian' literature

Imagine my shock.

Gee phooks, it'd be embarrassing if someone with no formal training in your field correctly identified the bleeding obvious instantly but you couldn't. Make you wonder if you really got value for money with your degree wouldn't it?
07:42am 21/02/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7814 posts
Shush don't mention the crush loading mass immigration

09:46am 21/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2186 posts
12:54pm 24/02/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7816 posts
07:17pm 24/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3049 posts
I get it redhat. It's genuine satire because it suggests you'd join getup! because you're angry with labor.

THAT

IS

HYSTERICAL.


Sorry, I'm just remembering. I hate labor so I joined getup!. Jon Stewart could learn a thing or two.
09:04pm 24/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5728 posts
GetUp is a group that attacks both LNP & Labor. It just happens to attack the LNP more so because they're known for making decisions that are not in the interests of most voters.
09:43pm 24/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3051 posts
Which is why they were a political glory hole for Rudd. You are the dumbest person on this forum by a significant margin vash.

09:48pm 24/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5729 posts
You are the dumbest person on this forum


Coming from a Trump apologist that is remarkable, PP. Please tell us more so we can laugh some more.
10:30pm 24/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3052 posts
Hey here is something you can laugh at.

Rick gates is the most recent person to be charged by Mueller in the 'russia stole the election' investigation.

His charges all relate to his work with paul manfort while they were working for tony podesta, all of them, every single one.

If that name rings a bell (it doesn't because you're dumb) its because tony podesta is john podesta's brother. John podesta of hacked DNC email fame. You know where they were feeding Hillary's questions to the press ahead of time, and no one has denied it. That john podesta.

So of the Americans actually charged with actual crimes and not process crimes, the criminal activity happened while they were working for Democrats.
10:48pm 24/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
912 posts
12:46pm 25/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3053 posts
Right so three that all happened this year.

Gee I wonder the sleeplees nights they've caused shorten with this ceaseless barage criticism.

I think I'd be able to find more stories of Albo being critical of Labor.
01:40pm 25/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2188 posts
Not sure what your point is, this year is 2 months in, obviously they've been critical of labors stance on refugees since the Gillard gov.

They're not supposed to be a fair and balanced media, they're a progressive movement which obviously is going to always be critical of the LNP and will be critical of labor's right wing policies.
03:45pm 25/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3054 posts
Just enough criticism to make it plausible they aren't stooges.

Though then there is $1.12M they accepted from the CMFEU to run anti-Abbott ads. And the AWU donated at least $100,000 while Shorten was at the helm. But yeah they independently arrive at their policy positions.
04:11pm 25/02/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2189 posts
lol yeah dude unions don't have a left wing stance.

More news at 10, the IPA has never supported the labor movement.

Looking forward to PP calling out the IPA being the rabid centerist that he is.
10:09pm 25/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3055 posts
The hits keep coming.

Yes the unions are a random left wing organisation whose affiliation with the Labor party is a total mystery.

The leader of the parliamentary Labor party personally oversaw a donation of $100,000 to the "independent" activist group

It's funny you should bring up the IPA because I never claimed they were independent.

How about this. Next time I post a video claiming if you're upset with the Libs your best bet to take them to task is to join the IPA you can point this discussion out. But keep in mind you'll need to go and find another organisation that literally forms the basis of the the Libs which has donated millions of dollars to the IPA and get me to clam nothing to see here to equal the stupidity on display here.
07:13am 26/02/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7820 posts
10:21pm 26/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5733 posts
I thought PP said Trump's polls were improving. Maybe for a few days. His 8-ball needs retuning.
05:24am 27/02/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3369 posts
Surely, from an economic standpoint, Australia needs more immigration, no?
06:31am 27/02/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41002 posts
I cant even.
07:03am 27/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3057 posts
His polls dropped half a point vash. You remember 2 weeks ago when you all said the economy was over?

Why don't you got back to explaining how a group who takes large, in some cases record, donations from Labor MP's is "independent" of Labor.
07:19am 27/02/18 Permalink
Vash
5735 posts
Why don't you got back to explaining how a group who takes large, in some cases record, donations from Labor MP's is "independent" of Labor.


Surely you can grasp the concept of lobbying for a party more likely to implement policies you desire? They are independent, just as the NRA is even though it lobbies hard with the Republicans.

Also his polls dropped more than half a point. He's experiencing a hard dive after the shooting. Since his ridiculous push vs movies & video games, more guns in schools. More dumb that isn't surprising from the hard right.
07:43am 27/02/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3058 posts
Surely you can grasp the concept of lobbying for a party more likely to implement policies you desire? They are independent, just as the NRA is even though it lobbies hard with the Republicans.


Ok the NRA is independent of the Republican party. Guess that means the Republicans arrived at their position on gun control completely independenly and you're wrong in the school shooting thread Got you.

Also his polls dropped more than half a point. He's experiencing a hard dive after the shooting. Since his ridiculous push vs movies & video games, more guns in schools. More dumb that isn't surprising from the hard right.


Not according to fivethirtyeight. You've been predicting his immanent demise for three straight years now vash. You'd think with such an objectively terrible record you'd stop. But it's the "hard right" who are dumb
08:04am 27/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39484 posts
Surely, from an economic standpoint, Australia needs more immigration, no?
the only people I know that think this though are the large employers, investors and business builders but they are obviously biased because they just want to be able to get the best people and fill skill gaps!!
He's experiencing a hard dive after the shooting.
I would have thought Obama's went down after every shooting too, because there's nothing any president can say
09:20am 27/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26263 posts
"I really believe I'd run in, even if I didn't have a weapon," Trump said during a White House meeting
Hopefully this is the first true thing trump has ever said.
02:00pm 27/02/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21500 posts
"I really believe I'd run in, even if I didn't have a weapon," Trump said during a White House meeting


Well that is a new level of stupid.

What a gutless thing to say after the fact, something that can never be proven to be true and a genuine load of bulls***.
08:13pm 27/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26264 posts
But he stopped a mugger with a baseball bat once!
08:19pm 27/02/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24003 posts
I would use a flash bang.and deagle.
08:37pm 27/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
913 posts
the first true thing trump has ever said.


Really? Is Haiti not a s***-hole country? You actually believe everything he says is a lie?

Maybe it's some of the brutal flippant reality he comes out with that you find rude, arrogant, and offensive.

How about the 'fake news' stuff. That was hilarious... That he had the balls to tell a major network to basically FO.

Do you think he is a master mind liar?
10:24pm 27/02/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
508 posts
This post has been removed.
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10:14am 28/02/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39485 posts
no: we think he is an /exceptionally/ poor liar

"master mind liars" know to make sure their lies are embedded within things that are mostly true so their lies are swallowed

watching you simultaneously do nothing but talk about and defend trump while complaining about everyone talking about trump is a rare pleasure, rivalled only by (but nearly indistinguishable from) watching poorly scripted twitter bots that have forgotten to turn off their location shout MAGA into the aether

edit: New Yorker on point
10:58am 28/02/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
914 posts
I given up on "asking why the trump obsession?" I don't this he's the best thing for their country. I think he's entertaining, and bit of an embarrassment to them which I find amusing. It's the hatred of him that's interesting though. People in our country feel the urge to voice their hatred of him, in the workplace even. The same people who seem to be really pissed off with him, also seem to favour beliefs that I don't fully agree with. So for me it's like "Wow this Trump guy has really annoyed some people, and I don't mind".

I think if I was an American I'd be embarrassed to live in a financial crisis country with candidates like Clinton, Bernie and Trump getting so far. Then again, seeing Shorten talk on TV, or Pauline, or a few others like Pyne just makes we wonder why we can't have better.

The way I understand it, they voted him in mostly because people wanted radical change. All those movies with flags, and all those eagles and flags on their houses and cars didn't save them from the GFC. Space program and defence budgets are extraordinary. I can see why Palestinians are not happy. Then they have the guns issue and significant racial prejudice. We are very fortunate here. Fortunate we have hundreds of kilometres of ocean surrounding us like a big moat. They are a proud nation in an embarrassing situation, their country went to crap recently. Things could even go worse, this return we are seeing is not guaranteed. Stuff happens. They could have another civil war in the next couple decades I recon. Unlikely but possible.

So how about politicians here who work so hard at their career but let their penis take over their brain?

or "Hey I dated a polly and got cheated on, so I'll go public."
06:23pm 28/02/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41004 posts
meanwhile in australian politics, Michaelia Cash is an idiot and will most likely get herself fired.

lolz.

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/bizarre-threat-could-be-michaelia-cashs-final-outburst/news-story/e1f679e22e918c6be8d9ba81dd9a2b93
08:07am 01/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24004 posts
she's got a big mouth. still not as big as sam.
09:35am 01/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
915 posts
So much distracting BS that goes on. Focus on running the country.
06:41pm 01/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
916 posts
Imagine having a life so s*** and devoid of meaning that you'd need to constantly lie about it on an internet gaming forum.


Fpot

You keep alleging that I'm constantly lying. Can you elaborate?

You were saying Trump might have said his first truth recently.

Just tell me honestly? Are you level headed and clear minded? If your emotional, as I can see your recent response was removed to being abusive, maybe seek help.

You are basically making direct personal attacks.
07:23pm 01/03/18 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18536 posts
A person who suppresses their emotion, is still being emotional, they just don't know it.
07:54pm 01/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26266 posts
Your anecdotes are total bulls***. The type you can only say on the internet because you'd be repeatedly interrupted in real life by questions that would expose them as such. You tell these bulls*** anecdotes because you know you don't have anything to add of any meaning apart from phasing between I'm so above this trump stuff what's the big deal and whiny getaload-a-thosegreens dumbisms. When you squeeze into your big boy pants and try to sound all philosophical (see six posts up) it's really bizarre and nonsensical, but I can tell you think it's really smart which is kind of pathetic. Anything else you wanted me to elaborate on?
08:05pm 01/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3059 posts
Hey so the Schiff memo rebuttal to the Nunes memo is out.

Doesn't do a great job of rebutting the idea that the FBI relied on Steele's credibility to get the warrant if I'm being honest. It addresses that by suggesting that Steele was really really credible (while he was proven to be lying to the FBI). Which sort of, when you think about it, doesn't really address the issue that the FBI isn't allowed to rely on an informant's crebility to verify hearsay.

It goes on to say that the warrant only relied on Steele's work in a "narrow" capacity. The "narrow" capacity being establishing probably cause that Page was committing a federal felony. So FBI relied on the information for the "narrow' purpose of establishing the facts which allow for a FISA warrant. "narrow".

It attributes claims to the Isikoff article which are demonstratbly not in the article. and then says the fabricated quote was used to verify the fact that Page was in Russia.

It is then liberally strewed with methods and sources that needed to be redacted which Schiff claims Nunes added in at the last minute without his knowledge.

As expected the memo was nothing more than a shameful attempt to create interference in an investigation and to create a pretext for Trump to fire key people investigating him. Of course the russian twitter bots and the white nationalist focal points are saying different and sounding increasingly desperate as days go by.


Heh. Not so much it seems.

oh hey look fpot thinks he better then someone.
12:46am 02/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24005 posts
The best irony of the lot is say what you will about Trump but at least he didn't conspire with the Russians like his accusers did! This is such a ridiculous story, and CNN slavishly runs qwirth each new breaking news headline which actually amounts to nothing. They know it's a nothing-burger and yet they persist in peddling it because it sells ads and subscribers. SAD!
10:39am 02/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26268 posts
yes yes the 'deep state' CNN conspiracy is surely the thing here. If there's one thing that screams out about the trump administration it is legitimacy.
11:32am 02/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39486 posts
meanwhile in australian politics, Michaelia Cash is an idiot and will most likely get herself fired.

lolz.
pretty embarrassing for everyone really. It seems the less useful a politician is, the more pointless s***** noise they have to make to get noticed and any sense of recognition that they're accomplishing something
12:26pm 02/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
917 posts
Your anecdotes are total bulls***. The type you can only say on the internet because you'd be repeatedly interrupted in real life by questions that would expose them as such. You tell these bulls*** anecdotes because you know you don't have anything to add of any meaning apart from phasing between I'm so above this trump stuff what's the big deal and whiny getaload-a-thosegreens dumbisms. When you squeeze into your big boy pants and try to sound all philosophical (see six posts up) it's really bizarre and nonsensical, but I can tell you think it's really smart which is kind of pathetic. Anything else you wanted me to elaborate on?


The anecdotes are true. Fire off questions. I'll add to it, the Deputy Principal who in some ways supported the new teacher in showing inappropriate content is no longer Deputy. So that's a demotion. Why do you think I am a liar? You could be suffering from "denial". I'm actually known for being someone who will say it as i think it is. I live a life based on integrity and objectivity. So your assessment is way off the mark. That's understandable.. and I'm not offended, I have empathy for you. I believe that stating something as fact, and providing your opinion are things worth considering in future arguments. Absolutes like "all" and "never" are generally indicators of a failure in an individual to be able to articulate their argument. They detract worth from your points. There is often a big difference between what we actually know and what is our opinion.

This is the same kind of generalisation anyone who carries on about 'racism' is making. "Ohh they're all farked".. well no they are not all farked at all.. maybe some, but certainly not all.

Would you agree?

How about this life you think I portray, would you like to explain how I portray my life and the reality that you imply?
05:13pm 02/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26269 posts
You are exceptionally dull and I kind of promised to not just outright abuse people so I am mustering all of my willpower to just leave it at that.

I'll do you a deal though. You can keep saying your made up anecdotes and keep trying to claim you have integrity and are able to assess things objectivity and I won't say anything against it. I might even on occasion pretend you're telling the truth and play along with you because I think that's something you enjoy people doing. How's that sound?
05:18pm 02/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
918 posts
I think we can conclude that if you think my story about the school teacher is so outrageous, then people have 3 choices.

It's BS
Some is true
It's all True

Choose what you like. I'm telling you it's true. Even more unbelievable is that the idiot teacher was spouting this rubbish in a stable Liberal seat. So those kids go home and all hell broke loose, and I didn't even get involved in the emails, I just watched it pan out with the emails going around. I did research the content they were shown. Also, I spoke to the principle one day, in passing, about how I found and read the policies and that by the time I highlighted the breaches over the two pages there was not much white paper left. I explained to him that we have confidence that he will ensure recurrence does not happen. He reassured me that actions have occurred to ensure there will not be a recurrence, and I thanked him.

Why don't you accept that maybe it was true.

Now tell me about this life I have invented? You think I'm living in a basement at my mum's house? You carried on, so are you now backing down admitting you may have been wrong?
05:31pm 02/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26270 posts
This reminds me of the time the really bad liar elaborated with a whole bunch of details that would have been in the original story if it was actually the truth.
08:57pm 02/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
920 posts
omg you still think I am bulls***ting. oh well.

I have not even been bothered to go back and read what I said earlier. When the radicalised teacher tried to radicalise about 20 kids, one started screaming, one came home refusing to eat meat, my son was going on about seeing a video with a pig getting it's head cut off. My wife said not to worry about it because a heap of parents were furious.

It's about politics, because it's about a person getting overly wound up about their political views, where emotions can be more likely to fog the thought processes and SHE (not me) loses her grip on perspective.
10:11pm 02/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5738 posts
It's unfortunate that many real world problems are politicised, so this teacher could be pushing for fighting climate change in a safe liberal seat and be chastised for it.

If you base your views on objectivity, Nmag as you say, how can you possibly defend Trump and other conservatives with their views on climate change?
10:28pm 02/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26271 posts
Nmag: when did this happen?
10:48pm 02/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3062 posts
It's unfortunate that many real world problems are politicised, so this teacher could be pushing for fighting climate change in a safe liberal seat and be chastised for it.


Gold. You can bank that.

Just a quick question vash do the greens "politicise" climate change?

Or is it just evil Trump.
10:04am 03/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5739 posts
Trump, and other dumby conservatives obviously. One is politics based on a real problem and creating policy into tackling it, the other is refusing it exists and making it a political football.
10:39am 03/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
921 posts
She was operating out of the syllabus. I think it was 2016, apparently she was a bit peeved when Trump got in I think it was the same teacher. Theres a few of these doo gooders up there. Then she was gone for 2017. She popped up there on day early this year and may be a casual.. but we, like some other parents made it clear that we don't want her teaching our kids, and she is not, which is good.

One kid asked her "Why are you telling us all about the harms of factory farming, I don't do the shopping"

Another "Is the food in the canteen factory farmed?"

Our kids asked us about factory farming and animal cruelty for a couple of weeks.

Maths, English, science... that's what parents want kids to learn.. Not encouragement to donate money to help starving people in corners of Africa.. that's some of the other rubbish they came out with occasionally.

The re-calibration i easy for kids.. It's harder on adults who have lost the ability to reason outside their strict ideals.

For example:

Jesus, even if he did exist, was a political rebel, who made a claim that broke the law at the time. So they executed him, like they did with many criminals in those days.

Robbin hood, if he existed was a criminal. Crack heads who use the train network to come to suburbs near us and rob houses are not entitled in any way to steal things. We already subsided their life, and significant resources are wasted on ensuring they can continue to breed more parasites and system leeches that may one day break into your house, or steal your car.

Bushrangers were criminals that deserved to be strung up.

Grandmar while visiting NT met some aboriginals. She's retired after paying years of taxes and working to make our country better. She was cornered by 2 aboriginal women who were demanding money because, as they said "You owe us, you came to our country, you need to give us money, you owe us". Grandmar told them she has paid enough and owes them nothing.

Stolen generation has nothing to do with our children, and there is no reason to feel guilt for children who were removed from inadequate care. White kids get removed to. Still to this day any child who is not in adequate care is supposed to be removed and better care found.

They play Age of Empires 2. I explain things to them in terms of how that works. You can build a wall, or you can put some troops there, or you can go in and wipe them out. or you can let them overrun you, or you can team up and coexist. There are all these options. have trade carts. But there is limited gold and stone etc and the players are all generally trying to expand. Survival of the fittest, or coexist.

on and on

Anyway fpot still thinks I'm a liar.

The teacher was most likely radicalised somehow and felt justified enough to pass on her own values in contradiction to school policy. Pretty bold I recon. She was pretty c***y when I talked to her, and she was dismissive when my wife rang her. Maybe she planned to go out with a bang at end of 2016 and just didn't care? A SJW Extremist.

Irresponsible, but she would disagree, she may still no regret a thing. Most likely Vash and you too might support her behaviour.

Instead of droning on about the big orange man, how about some more conceptual global things like:

Consider Israel and Palestine. Many will typically favour the idea that Israel are the 'goodies' and Palestine are the baddies. Why is that? What things did we learn in our own education system, and world history, and through media, and movies that support the typically dominate idea that Israel are the 'goodies' and Palestine are the baddies? I've talked with Palestinians, and heard their unreasonable hatred for Jews. I was shocked when one was ranting with anger. Years later, I've come to realise why he was so pissed, and.. I'm not in favour of Israel being where it is and would prefer the Americans for example should help them relocate to somewhere within America instead of operating the country like a world power state., smack in the middle of the Arab world. The Israeli's argue they were there long long before and have every right to move in after WW2 and form a nation there. How many wars and attacks around the world have stemmed from the world powers fighting over regions there, that they should probably have stayed well away from?

If you really support Isreal being there, like I once did.. look into it some more and give consideration to the relationship between American, Isreal, mainstream private media, Hollywood, the entertainment industries, and the American top 1%. Considering the American top 1% is something extraordinary compared to the Australian top 1%. Who lives in the most expensive real estate in Australia? This is not about hatred, I'm just drawing some correlations. Years later the crazy Palestinian does not seem to crazy at all, but almost justified to be pissed off and to say some really evil things about a 'people' who almost control our planet. Business savvy people, very hard working, clever, who take business networking to the extreme, and have done so for thousands of years. With the ability to crush competition. In some ways I am glad we have things like ABC and SBS news to provide 'another angle' to how things work. We do need balance.
10:48am 03/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3063 posts
One is politics based on a real problem and creating policy into tackling it, the other is refusing it exists and making it a political football.


Sorry so politics based on something is not politicising the something? is that what I'm taking away from that.

You're a special little guy vash.
11:09am 03/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
922 posts
And...

The only person I can think of who lost the plot with anger in discussion of politics was when I asked a guy I know from northern Ireland to explain the conflict with his story. He was here for a couple years towards the end of the major conflicts.

Towards the end of his rant he was saying something like "How the F would you like it if New Zealand decided they want to take over NSW?"

I can see why Aboriginals are pissed off, but the main atrocities were a long time ago and that stuff needs to be buried. Like when the wall came down in Germany...people need to get over it. Like they say "Don't ask a German about the war".. because the guilt for what some of their ancestors did remains for generations. That was a bit worse than Colonisation, which is something a teacher will be delivering again this year (under history), and will again have the interaction between the aboriginals and the colonists (as she confirmed when I asked), and now doubt result is more guilt about this kind of history. I'm not sure it helps that much. The way the teacher delivers it is very open for the teacher to choose the messages received. She, much different teacher, confirmed it will be a-political, and that guilt and shock will not be a method of achieving the learning outcomes.
11:37am 03/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5740 posts

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376537-epa-chief-pruitt-there-arent-sufficient-facts-to-prove-theory-of

Trump sure knows how to pick em'
What's next, a flat earther as head of NASA?
03:16pm 03/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39487 posts
Many will typically favour the idea that Israel are the 'goodies' and Palestine are the baddies. Why is that?
hey let's start up another separate interesting topic that doesn't involve America: Israel
03:18pm 03/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26272 posts
Yeah I didn't read all that, but a sensational story of a teacher showing evil leftist propaganda to students, causing all this parental outrage, terrifying the poor children and getting fired, with a deputy principal getting demoted makes the local news. Extreme Greens Teacher Terrifies Students With Pig Decapitation Video would be an irresistible headline especially for our s***** papers. At the very least, there'd be some sort of record of it social media or otherwise on the internet.

Kind of like this. A story of a science teacher in Michigan fired for showing children an animal cruelty video to kids involving pigs. A story that sounds remarkably similar to yours.

edit: also, 'hey guys I am the master of the domain when it comes to my emotions come and sit in the calming light of my perfectly attuned logical aura *sees someone call out his obviously bulls*** story and posts a giant wall of babble* 'yep I am one calm normal dude'
05:14pm 03/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3064 posts
Haha look at fpot master of his domain. So on it.

What a sad sad little man you are fpot.
05:51pm 03/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
923 posts

fpot, you still can't refrain from having a go at the individual.

What kind of news article are you expecting to find? Today Tonight? A Current Afair... jeezz

Front page ABC news (bumped regularly like they do on their own agenda articles - out of sync with "most popular" - clear evidence of bumping an agenda) "Crazied SJW pushes agenda on X yr olds in school system".. mates this is just another day, she only stands out because she went too far by showing unrated youtube videos and asking the children to make an online pledge.

Did I mention this bit of logic she applied to primary school kids? "If you like trees, it's good to vote for the Greens". I love trees, who doesn't like trees? I think that criminal Hitler had a love for forests. But it works on kids, and some members of the population... who are also naive.

Libs in Tas.

What we know so far: Liberals returned to power, win at least 13 seats Premier Will Hodgman re-elected with thumping personal win Labor's Rebecca White concedes, heaping praise on party's showing Greens leader slams Liberals over party donations from "dirty" pokies money LIVE coverage from the tally room via ABC Hobart Twitter News of tragic death of 48yo former Liberal Vanessa Goodwin, a childhood friend of the Premier Full election coverage on ABC News Tasmania's website
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-03/polls-close-counting-begins-in-tasmanian-election/9506002
06:31pm 03/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5741 posts
So...

'He's now president for life,' Trump said of China's leader. 'I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot.'


Yeah.
07:23pm 04/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26274 posts
It was probably a joke, but the fact that he's joking about it and not condemning it in the strongest possible terms is what makes it so alarming.
07:32pm 04/03/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9579 posts
Can you imagine the Republicans losing their s*** if there were a Democratic president for life?
07:37pm 04/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39488 posts
bring back the monarchy, imo
07:45pm 04/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24007 posts
Epically trolled yet again. Take a joke. Everyone including the brain dead MSM knows about the Constitution.
07:49pm 04/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26275 posts
Can you imagine the Republicans losing their s*** if there were a Democratic president for life?
After 2020 there probably will be.
07:53pm 04/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7822 posts
HOLY F***!!! I hope we don't end up like Venezuela

07:58pm 04/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24008 posts
I think this statement is clearly grounds for impeachment.
08:02pm 04/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3065 posts
no infi

it was a thinly veiled threat. Obviously.

What I love so much about it, is that this happened more than a week ago. the super concerned for human rights crowd didn't' say s*** until trump cracked a joke. makes you think about how much they actually care about human rights. probs about an inedible frozen dinner for a homeless person's worth. At a guess.

Literally no analysis at all of the Chinese people who will suffer under the abuse of power. No reflection on how Xi's "crack down on corruption" in light of this was almost certainly a Maoist purge. the idiot d*******s who think Russia stole the election which means we should "patch" our democracy and are totes over talking about Trump, didn't talk about a serious negative development in the international human rights landscape until they could use it to rip on trump.

More entertaining again though is this sequence of quotes.

I'm reluctant to keep talking about Trump because f*** me really are we still talking about this f*****g a******?
watching you simultaneously do nothing but talk about and defend trump while complaining about everyone talking about trump is a rare pleasure
bring back the monarchy, imo

the lady doth protest too much me thinks.

Virtue, Virtue, where for art thou Virtue.
09:21pm 04/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5742 posts
Literally no analysis at all of the Chinese people who will suffer under the abuse of power. No reflection on how Xi's "crack down on corruption"


Such a cutie PP.
Tell me, where is Trump's analysis & condemnation of this decision by the Chinese president?
10:04pm 04/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26276 posts
Here's the whole quote -

"He's now president for life. President for life. And he's great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot some day."


The President of the USA praised a dictator on obtaining lifetime powers and insinuated that it was something he himself desires. Instead of taking pause on this supporters have praised him for 'epically trolling'. Nothing he could say and nothing he could do that is wrong.
10:33pm 04/03/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3370 posts
By most accounts factory farming is a pretty serious issue for a number of reasons, and it's something that's going to have to be improved in some shape or form. I don't see anything wrong with kids being taught about that, and other big issues we're facing in our collective future, in school. I agree it shouldn't be overly politicised to a particular political leaning (right or left), they should just teach the objective facts about it and then discuss the spectrum of problems/solutions. I don't really see any point in actively withholding that kind of information from kids and just teaching them basic maths/english or whatever, that as an education is deceitful and a bit useless (for them, us and our collective future) imo.

tbh I think Trump was probably joking. At this point the media and the left are so rabid about anything he says or does it just gets a bit ridiculous.

I'd encourage you all to check out Dave Chapelle's standup special, Equanimity, where he talks about a lot of this and other current events. It's on Netflix. Actually all four of his Netflix comedy specials are hilarious and insightful.

12:04am 05/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3066 posts
Where's yours vash?

Other than an opportunity to be offended by something trump said, where is the slightest evidence you care this has happened at all. Or fpot for that matter.

I know you care about showing how much you hate trump. You apparently care about nothing else. Which is why people like you talking about an event like this is so utterly nauseating.

As I said been news for over a week.


But here is a kicker. I haven't seen you or fpot criticise Justin Trudeau for praising China. He wasn't joking when he praised their ability to turn their economy around on a dime (because they can just arrest and shoot anyone who doesn't get with the program.)

When you start criticizing Trudeau humans rights record, then your hotair about Trump will take on the ghost of credibility.
07:35am 05/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5743 posts
Dude, im not offended.
People are pointing out the insanity of Trump isn't being offended, or hating him. It's pure insanity that a leader of an office meant to be held in such high esteem would say something like this, so it needs to be pointed out.
It doesn't need to be said on how awful it'll be for the Chinese people, thats obvious. It's a big deal what the U.S President thinks about it.

The way you and Infi blindly defend him is such a fascinating insight into the human ego. Do you want to bring up another whataboutsie to talk about some other random leader and memos some more?
09:59am 05/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3067 posts
It's pure insanity that a leader of an office meant to be held in such high esteem would say something like this, so it needs to be pointed out.
It doesn't need to be said on how awful it'll be for the Chinese people, thats obvious. It's a big deal what the U.S President thinks about it.


This is exactly backwards.

The fact that a joke was made in an informal context is something that absolutely doesn't need to be discussed.

The fact that China is reverting to an even more authoritarian state does need to be discussed.

As for the idea of a *joke* providing insight to trumps stance while he simultaneously increasing us navel power in the South China sea to prevent Chinese expansionism it is beyond retarded.

The way you and Infi blindly defend him is such a fascinating insight into the human ego. Do you want to bring up another whataboutsie to talk about some other random leader and memos some more?


This is a masterwork of projection. Given the first half of the post, in which you very explicitly state the tone of a joke is more important than the fundamental human rights of over 1 billion people I agree the whatabout Trudeau is unnecessary. You just flatout state you think it's more important to talk about the tone of a response to a human rights disaster than the actual disaster. It is idiotic gossip tarted up as political opinion. F*** you're a vapid individual.
11:19am 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26277 posts
tbh I think Trump was probably joking. At this point the media and the left are so rabid about anything he says or does it just gets a bit ridiculous.
He wasn't joking when he praised Xi and he wasn't joking when he said what he did was great. The only reason he is joking about becoming president for life himself is because it's not possible for him to do so. If he could he would.
02:31pm 05/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3068 posts
He wasn't joking when he praised Xi and he wasn't joking when he said what he did was great. The only reason he is joking about becoming president for life himself is because it's not possible for him to do so. If he could he would.


Go and listen to an audio recording of the words. You can hear everyone in the Audience laughing. It was plainly a joke and fact that you are practically wanking to the idea of trump being a tyrant in waiting doesn't change that.

It's difficult to tell what is weirder the fact that you've managed to convince yourself that the us elected literally hilter, or the fact that you obviously want the us to have elected literally Hitler.

It's like video games aren't providing you with compelling enough escapism so you need to make up a fantasy world where an elected president is the manifestation of pure evil and you have to fight him one incoherent post at a time.
03:58pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26278 posts
Watching the trump twitter faithful melt the f*** down over the Oscars is a pretty glorious sight to behold I must say.
05:12pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
924 posts
Another day... People on the other side of the world, so triggered by the flippant remarks of a person who often makes flippant remarks.

Monarchy has some advantages, when we consider issues we have around lobbyists and how votes are 'bought'.

Greens voters posting on the internet via PC's or handheld devices built with bits extracted from mines all over the world. If I was truly dedicated to being green I stop buying toilet paper, and start using my hand. I would not own a car, or a dog. I would not have a quarter acre block, and mow a lawn. I'd be trying to encourage the whole world to stop breeding. I'd also be working as hard as I possibly could to try and make up for the huge environmental impact (with hardly any positive return) for the first 20 years of my life, and for the last 20 years of my life. I'd be getting rid of household artificial light, TV's radios.. all that crap. When it goes dark it's night time.. time to weave baskets in the moon light while we sing songs about the evils of selling excess minerals, when you live in a mineral rich country.

I've met a few who don't "really get it". Studying something stupid at UNI, travel the world a bit... hardly work.. on the dole.. I'll vote greens, and I justify this by bringing my own coffee mug to the cafe to avoid a disposable. It fits in my Toyota land cruiser console just fine. and my 2 dogs lick it clean each morning. It has a bumper sticker "no more mines". It's mostly made of steel, and I'm driving on roads made from mines, and the byproduct of the petrochemical industry.

"protest groups" help with balance, but they tell lies too.
05:27pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26280 posts
05:32pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
925 posts
That's right, it's going to seem dumb if you can't understand it.

When we see a environmental hippy living on welfare it's the definition of hypocrisy.

A 20 year old uni student demonstrating against environmental impact is hell-a-funny. Their naive stupidity shields them from the blatant hypocrisy.

Tell me how you are so green fpot? What green initiatives have you embraced? Have you quit eating beef yet?

Do you now do commingled recycling?
08:12pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26281 posts
Haha yes you're deep and nuanced - a talent not recognised in your own times simply because you're so brilliant. When will people finally catch up so your poignant message will be heard.

You dunce.

edit: I think my favourite part of your posting are the frantic panic edits. Gotta get that drivel sounding juuuust right.
08:18pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
926 posts
haha, again your argument fails so you resort to personal attacks.

Some of my posts here are clearly dribble, but the quality of you and Vash's contribution is spectacular. A real insight into the mind-set.

Come on, tell us about your righteous green ways.

Did you buy a Prius?, or maybe you use the half flush? or do you wash your clothes with berries (my last neighbour does).
08:27pm 05/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39489 posts
you're not making any rational point. do you think we think the Koch brothers are personally pouring oil into the sewer system?
08:35pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
927 posts
My point is, that some envio-activists I've encountered could not conceptualise that their impact is marginally similar to anyone else. That the guy who works at the company who pours oil down a drain is working not just for himself, but also for the unemployed envio-activist. People often think they are very green, when calculated comparisons are marginal.

For example:

- Owning a dog for a year is apparently about the same adverse environmental impact as owning a 4WD for a year.
- If you have a car, even if it's old, it's most likely best for the environment to keep it going, forever if you can, pour maintenance into it.
- In 25+ years I've not had a clothes dryer, or even used one.

And, this theory that "If you like trees vote for the greens" is kind of rubbish. I like to think we all like trees.

And, fpot is resorting to personal attacks because he has not been able to counter them.. Well he says "lies".

Surely if we were truly green, we would be trying to reduce the human population?
08:52pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26282 posts
The point you're actually making is that there is no way to participate in a capitalist society without having a negative impact on the environment. It's just that you're too dumb to realise it. It's great that people try to minimise their impact and I try to where I can but if real change is to happen then it needs to happen on a macro scale. This is where political parties like the Greens become relevant because that's what they're pushing for. Ironic, don't you think, that you'll try to attack this particular angle while simultaneously decrying the one political party that seems to align with your argument.
09:01pm 05/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39490 posts
People often think they are very green, when calculated comparisons are marginal.
Everyone I know that votes Green, including myself, already knows this, which is why we vote Green - to try to encourage more environmental policies that will encourage, incentivise, or force everyone to behave in a more sustainable manner.
- Owning a dog for a year is apparently about the same adverse environmental impact as owning a 4WD for a year.
Everyone knows this because they know what it costs to keep animals alive.
- If you have a car, even if it's old, it's most likely best for the environment to keep it going, forever if you can, pour maintenance into it.
Kind of fair, but there is a point at which it's better for the environment - and often cheaper - to buy a new car because the old car is so woefully inefficient and bad. Most of the "greens" I know bought second hand cars or simply don't drive. (I haven't owned a car for the four years I've been overseas and will be buying a 2nd hand one here.)
- In 25+ years I've not had a clothes dryer, or even used one.
That is a privilege of living in Australia. Although I'm amazed at how bad it is drying clothes here in BNE; they often end up stinking because they don't dry properly because of the humidity. I don't think I've ever lived in a place with a dryer in Brisbane (except for my parent's place where I am now). So, uh, yeh, we all know dryers are a waste of power.
And, this theory that "If you like trees vote for the greens" is kind of rubbish. I like to think we all like trees.
And yet, without strong environmental policies, we happily chop them down all over the world because the desire to make a profit off FREE WOOD trumps Tragedy of the Commons every time.
And, fpot is resorting to personal attacks because he has not been able to counter them.. Well he says "lies".
A few minutes ago you implied - strongly - that Trump is not a liar. As a result your ability to distinguish between fact and fiction is strongly called into question. (Or was that one of your posts that was "clearly dribble"? How do we distinguish between posts that are dribble and posts that are not?)
Surely if we were truly green, we would be trying to reduce the human population?
literally everyone already thinks this and not only has it already been happening for decades but outside of those who subscribe to religions that encourage breeding, the entire world is almost hell-bent on trying to bring third-world countries out of poverty and subsistence farming so that their population growth decreases.

So your point is just a collection of weird sentences that play into a narrative that is almost completely fictional in that it's based on some cartoonish caricature of a Green voter which, in my opinion and experience, does not reflect reality in the slightest.
09:10pm 05/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24009 posts
Watching the trump twitter faithful melt the f*** down over the Oscars is a pretty glorious sight to behold I must say.


I'm just annoyed The Shape of Water won because it was a cringey mediocre movie and 3 Billboards ran rings around it (plus I had money on 3 Billboards).

There was a lot of lame Hollywood drivel in the presentation, the liberal retardation and mass white self-loathing is predictable, best strategy is just not to watch. I tuned in when the bets were being decided. Hollywood is definitely not meltdown worthy because they don't actually exist in the real world I am convinced.
09:20pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
928 posts
I must have missed that part where I said "Trump is not a liar". I think I was stating that fpot recons this could be the first time he has not lied, implying he always lies. As he stated that my misguided but well meaning school teacher is also a lie, and my 'life' that I somehow 'portray' is a lie.

There is the option of going to live in NW Australia as a pure green specimen. Off the grid, no welfare. Living like the indigenous people did. Living in a grass hut somewhere in Africa. That's about as green as I can think. Providing a drip feed to the unsustainable is not green. Neither is encouraging the "underdeveloped" communities, to come here and "develop" to eventually work so they can to have a colour TV and Hyundai SUV as well. That's not very green.

Do greens want underdeveloped nations to be developed?

Some more dams, and power stations, sealed roads, power, sewer, town water, bridges, roads.. or an we better tack in 'education' and 'health' (keep more of them alive) cause that sells to those with well pulled heart strings.

How's it working out in Melbourne right about now?

Did you green guys play Age of Empires 2? or Warcraft 1? or how about "Total Annihilation?".. "Command and Conquer?"

How about "Mine Craft"?
09:53pm 05/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3069 posts
So your point is just a collection of weird sentences that play into a narrative that is almost completely fictional in that it's based on some cartoonish caricature of a Green voter which, in my opinion and experience, does not reflect reality in the slightest.


It's ok nmag. Trogs experience counts for almost nothing. Don't forget he and fpot just lambasted you for retelling your experience. Trog being "reasonable" therefore responds with his own experience.

Another reliable gauge of having lost the argument is posting a left wing comic. Vash does it quite a bit.

The long and short of it is that the greens won't expel Lee Rhiannon from their party. She is a self-declared Marxist. there is no difference at all between that and having a self-declared nazi in your party.

So here is the rub

compare the soviet union on any metric to the US or Australia including, and perhaps especially environmentalism, and Australia and the US comfortably beat the soviet union.

So if they can't muster enough ideological consistency to expel someone who believes in a political philosophy that is objectively terrible for the environment, how much do they actually care about the environment. Not too much. their byline should be "easy from the cheap seats". It's easy to be idealistic when you don't have to you know actually govern. but they can't even manage consistent ideology when there is no pressure to actually deliver well-governed outcomes.

But don't forget, your description doesn't match up with trogs experience. there are two kinds of greens voters. The people who don't care much about their vote, and the people who are hopelessly confused about what a coherent political philosophy even looks like.

for example
The point you're actually making is that there is no way to participate in a capitalist society without having a negative impact on the environment.


Just dogs*** typed on screen. it even smells a little. just ask fpot what he thinks a capitalist society even is. You won't get a coherent response because he doesn't know. He is f*****g dumb.
09:55pm 05/03/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4384 posts
Surely if we were truly green, we would be trying to reduce the human population?


next week, on fork horners
10:18pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2190 posts
Would love for you to elaborate on what your coherent political philosophy actually is PP.

Nmag the comic:
https://pics.me.me/apple-airpods-cost-159-but-they-cant-pay-taxes-or-8333214.png
10:21pm 05/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24010 posts
Steer clear of governments and people who dress up authoritarianism with social justice and egalitarianism.
10:26pm 05/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24011 posts
Dumb comic. Plenty of other phones you can buy if you have a problem with Apple instead of just posting about it. Slacktivism at its finest.
10:28pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26283 posts
That's the comic I was originally looking for Redhat.

Dumb comic. Plenty of other phones you can buy if you have a problem with Apple instead of just posting about it. Slacktivism at its finest.
There are so many levels of dumb in this comment you'd need a rocket ship to get to the top of it. The comic wasn't specifically referring to Apple, it was referring to consumer electronic products in general which are almost exclusively made in sweatshops with mined rare earth minerals. I don't even know why you threw the word slacktivism in there... is that just an involuntary reaction when you're confronted by something more challenging than your feed of trump loving twitter bots?
10:30pm 05/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2191 posts

Dumb comic. Plenty of other phones you can buy if you have a problem with Apple instead of just posting about it. Slacktivism at its finest.

Are you taking to the streets about governments who dress up authoritarianism with social justice and egalitarianism?

Such a slacktivist.

Also I am very intelligent.

You want to talk about authoritarianism, it is fine when corporate power is protected I suppose:
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/nsw-antiprotest-laws-are-part-of-a-corrosive-national-trend-20160322-gno10h.html
10:39pm 05/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24012 posts
The comic is flawed because with the latter two premises, there are no alternatives yet devised so the consumer must battle on until the technology arrives.

The Apple user is your typical slacktivist (hypocrite) because they have chosen not to move their consumer spending decision to another product more aligned to their values.

Are you taking to the streets about governments who dress up authoritarianism with social justice and egalitarianism?


I am using my electoral power to place the Greens last in every election. Hardcore hey?

You want to talk about authoritarianism, it is fine when corporate power is protected I suppose:


I couldn't care less about anyone wearing a tea cosy or a vagina hat.

The article talks about illegal protests including interfering with a lawful mine or trespassing. Redhat typical Leftist mentality - opposed to enforcement of the law for law abiding businesses - wants more authortarian government in power. it's the retardation of Leftism in a nutshell. We really need to find a cure.

The comic wasn't specifically referring to Apple, it was referring to consumer electronic products in general which are almost exclusively made in sweatshops with mined rare earth minerals.


The comic literally refers to Apple hahah.

I don't even know why you threw the word slacktivism in there


that comic depicted a literal slacktivist - posting s*** on social media and then acting contrary to that value in real life.
10:55pm 05/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26284 posts
So people who think workers should be paid a fair amount and that companies should pay tax aren't allowed to have a smart phone or a tv or a a fridge etc etc? This is your rational assessment of the situation? A thing you actually believe? Can't wait to see how you double down the dumb on this one.

Do you also not get how Apple could be substituted with just about any technology company that produces physical objects and was only used to make the comic easier for people to relate to?
12:05am 06/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3070 posts
Would love for you to elaborate on what your coherent political philosophy actually is PP.

Show me yours red hat. Show me yours.

You want to talk about authoritarianism, it is fine when corporate power is protected I suppose:

Yes nobody should be prevented from doing what they like with other people's property. "authoritarianism"
meanwhile in china...

Also I am very intelligent.

tell yourself what you have to redhat. You never did finish explaining how getup can take donations from labor MPs and be independent of labor MPs. You know seeing as money is the root of all evil

as I was saying posting a left wing comic is a reliable gauge of someone having lost the argument.

So people who think workers should be paid a fair amount and that companies should pay tax aren't allowed to have a smart phone or a tv or a a fridge etc etc?


I love that you say infi produces strawmen as a bodily function. Occupy didn't say companies should pay tax or that workers should be paid a fair amount. It said capitalism is evil and had no future.

hey did you know that the seatbelt was invented by the private capitalist market? and the car. if you think *markets* are evil, then yeah participating in a market is straightforwardly hypocritical. you have everything you need to break the evil corporate power. if you don't well then shut the f*** up.
05:35am 06/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5744 posts
Would love for you to elaborate on what your coherent political philosophy actually is PP.


He doesn't have one. He's just a simple contrarian.
06:51am 06/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3071 posts
Just because you can't figure it out Vash doesn't mean I don't have one. We can just add it the long long list of s*** you don't understand.
07:45am 06/03/18 Permalink
funky
Canada
1925 posts
I have a question - do any of you get sick of bickering? I mean, this thread is mostly just a handful of you trying to score 'points' and slagging each other off
09:41am 06/03/18 Permalink