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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
Viper119
Other International
3380 posts
I see what you're saying Pete. idk tho, I think you're talking more to fpot's point about policy than mine. The reaction by the media / public discourse on that issue, given the issue didn't exist in the way it was presented, nor was asylum asked for, seems to have some decent racial bias to me. I'll ponder on your logic though.

I agree the far left's outrage treadmill is brimming with hypocrisy and irrationality in many areas, not just the Russian's. Ricky Gervais had a interesting discussion about that re: transgender in his new standup Humanity.

Isn't the 'rage' a bit on the nose though, given the US's history of electron meddling?

America’s long history of meddling in other countries’ elections

The long history of the U.S. interfering with elections elsewhere

The U.S. tried to change other countries’ governments 72 times during the Cold War

US Interfered in Elections of at Least 85 Countries Worldwide Since 1945
12:46am 22/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3105 posts
I think though many people misunderstand a lot of what the Russian rage is about; I was surprised to discover how much of it (at least in my circle of American relatives) is based on leftover Cold War feelings.


Difficult to take seriously when Mitt Romney said Russia was the US most serious Geo-Political Enemy and the media and Democrats responded with the 1950's called and they want their foreign policy back.

I think you misunderstand.

disagree. It is unquestionable at this point that they interfered with the US election and, if unchecked, will keep doing it anywhere they feel they can eke out any sort of advantage. Fomenting dissent in nations you're competing with is a no-brainer if you can do it by pulling the strings of people in their bread and circus backyard. I do agree that the impact may have been small... but a small impact is all it takes when something is balanced on knife-edge.


This paints Putin as some sort of criminal mastermind who was able to produce just enough of an effect to get his criminal mastermind way. But I doubt I see any acknowledgement that Trump's election has hardly been a huge win for Putin. He is arming Ukraine has been killing Russian Military forces in Syria and done airstrike on Russian Air fields. I'm sure these are all things Putin was trying to orchestrate.

I understand the Russian story perfectly. It is a way of not dealing with why Hillary Clinton wasn't beating Trump in a landslide. Russian interference *might* account for what half a polling point? what happened to the other 15 points?

I think you're talking more to fpot's point about policy than mine.

I am and I hope you can see the stupidity of phooks point as well. I have actually met professor Hathaway, I am *well* educated on this topic. I have never once heard him call the turn back policy explicitly racist. I have heard that idiot Kon who runs the ASRC call it racist non-stop, but Kon is an archetypal SJW. Phooks cites a bunch of arts journals whos other articles include the need to dismantle hegemonic whiteness. I won't mince my words, listening to their views on race is about as informative as listening to anti-semite on the evils of Jewishness. Or phooks on any topic really.

The reaction by the media / public discourse on that issue, given the issue didn't exist in the way it was presented, nor was asylum asked for, seems to have some decent racial bias to me.


But South Africa has had a significant an issue with racially motivated violence against white farmers. There is history there, and while something like the EFF might not be mainstream they still exist. I haven't followed it that closely, but it so far as I have read Dutton suggested treating victims of a well-established form of violence in south africa as refugees can probably be justified. So long as that is the case it needs to be considered against any calls of racial bias.

It doesn't follow that all whites are refugees in SA. But as long as there is some reason think there may be some, then it is a conversation worth having. As for racial bias, I am now a bit confused on your point. If there has been some news coverage that is racially biased how is that different from any other day? I also wonder if it is possible to discuss the issue of white refugees without giving off the appearance of racial bias? If they are being attacked on the grounds of their race, it seems like you're going to have to talk about how whites are being oppressed and in all likelihood by non-whites to have the discussion at all, and I might make crystal clear here that s*** doesn't have to get to apartheid levels to justify calling something oppression.
06:15am 22/03/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9589 posts
I really disagree with the leaps some people are making. By the examples being used, me or you as non-US citizens - or non-citizens of any country, commenting on political matters outside our own borders, and certainly suggesting one candidate or another is better than another for any reason, would be considered election tampering. It's crazy. It's basically saying that noone is allowed to report on news outside their own borders or that's "election tampering".
10:16am 22/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26319 posts
You're comparing targeted marketing/disinformation campaigns to general political discussion amongst members of the public or am I missing something?
01:47pm 22/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
960 posts

It's not as simple as one or the other.



This is pretty funny:

On Thursday Dutton told 2GB Radio there had been “lots of outrage†from “some of the crazy lefties at the ABC, Guardian, the Huffington Post ... [who] draw mean cartoons about meâ€. “They don’t realise how completely dead they are to me,†he said. Dutton said Australia’s immigration program was “solely based on our national interest†and claimed he was “completely blind to somebody’s skin colour - it makes no difference to meâ€.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/22/south-africa-risks-food-shortages-if-white-farmers-go-to-australia-nationals-mp-says

Peak time for online articles. What does ABC have as top story, if your location is set to Sydney (4k away)?

myer-accused-of-racial-profiling at some store in Perth

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-22/myer-accused-of-racial-profiling-over-school-formal-row/9575314

Mr Garlett said the sales assistant, who made the panicked call for security, did not witness any crime being committed, but 10 staff had converged on the change room within 30 seconds. "This was a full-scale security call and to me it was an over-reaction," he told ABC Radio Perth. He said the staff looked confused and embarrassed when they saw the original sales assistant accompany them to the counter to pay more than $200 for the shirt and accessories.


Top national news. Articles like this tend to outrage and divide. Do they help with the healing? ABC plays these 'peak post time' games regularly.
05:42pm 22/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26320 posts
It might be a timing thing with the recent murder of Stephon Clark by the police in his own backyard. Fine job those guys are doing, can get a bit messy sometimes though.
06:19pm 22/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
961 posts
You explain Stephon Clark like the shock headings do "own backyard"

He was running from cops, after a bunch of cars were broken into. Asked to stop several times, was in a backyard, they say they thought they saw a gun. It was his grandmothers yard. 20 shots is not a big deal, it looks like some of it was supresive to protect the people who put their lives on the line to deal with the s*** that is that nation.

Running from cops is a pretty 'dumb' thing to do. Then hiding under something. Especially if you believe your skin colour makes you a target.

Is that what you would do?

I'd stay out in the public street, to make sure more witnesses, near a street light, and hold up my hands, showing palms, stopped.
09:28am 23/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39513 posts
I really disagree with the leaps some people are making. By the examples being used, me or you as non-US citizens - or non-citizens of any country, commenting on political matters outside our own borders, and certainly suggesting one candidate or another is better than another for any reason, would be considered election tampering. It's crazy. It's basically saying that noone is allowed to report on news outside their own borders or that's "election tampering".
Well, I don't know what examples you're talking about - I'm sure there are some deads**** that are asking for the Internet to be shut down but like most extremists, who cares - but I don't think that is what people are saying at all.

They're saying that when a nation-state uses its resources to deliberately and maliciously foment dissent by spreading "agitprop", planting false stories, and inciting s***fights on highly contentious issues (especially around an election), that is a Big Deal and people need to be aware of it.

It's possible noone needs to do anything at all now that it's happened once - although I doubt it, people are still willing to believe whatever they read instead of assuming it's written by paid Russian agitators, which seems like a good default perspective for anything now whether true or false because at least it means people are QUESTIONING s***.
10:01am 23/03/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9590 posts
Yeah, but what's the difference between it being a government, a company wholely or partially owned by a foreign citizen, and a local citizen?

In reality yeah, the issue is what you've eluded to - people don't actually evaluate and question s***, they just believe what they read because it matches their own narrative. That's the bigger problem. It shouldn't matter who tells you some bulls*** story - you should at least look at something and say "where's the proof? What evidence backs this up?"
10:22am 23/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3108 posts
people are still willing to believe whatever they read instead of assuming it's written by paid Russian agitators, which seems like a good default perspective for anything now whether true or false because at least it means people are QUESTIONING s***.


Glorious.

People should question s***, by assuming everything is Russian agitprop.

Yep that's a totally rational coherent point of view.

Of course it seems questioning the assumption everything is agitprop is not on the menu.

Another thing we might question is whether any of this is actually true.

They're saying that when a nation-state uses its resources to deliberately and maliciously foment dissent by spreading "agitprop", planting false stories, and inciting s***fights on highly contentious issues (especially around an election), that is a Big Deal and people need to be aware of it.


Is it a big deal or is it the same deal as propaganda and everyone knows it?

If we call it some obscure Kremlin term it goes from being the totally ordinary course of international relations to a huge deal and a serious threat to democracy as we know it.

One may more effectively question s*** by renaming agitprop again to the sexy Russian translation of sour grapes.
10:37am 23/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39514 posts
Yeah, but what's the difference between it being a government, a company wholely or partially owned by a foreign citizen, and a local citizen?
Resources
11:05am 23/03/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9591 posts
So when it's a small company? When it's a mega-corp that are bigger than some governments? Does that make it not okay for Apple or De Beers to 'manipulate' an election, but not Tuvalu as a country?
11:29am 23/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26321 posts
I'd stay out in the public street, to make sure more witnesses, near a street light, and hold up my hands, showing palms, stopped.
Yes this would then guarantee that the police won't murder you as there has never been a single case of a person completely surrendering and being shot anyway.
12:37pm 23/03/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9592 posts
Yes this would then guarantee that the police won't murder you as there has never been a single case of a person completely surrendering and being shot anyway.


Just make sure you're in handcuffs. They wouldn't shoot a person who's already in handcuffs and in custody.

... ...

Oh FFS.
02:30pm 23/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2199 posts

Pretty sure there's going to be water wars before race wars in SA.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/world-water-day-water-crisis-explained/


03:06pm 23/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26322 posts


Just make sure you're in handcuffs. They wouldn't shoot a person who's already in handcuffs and in custody.

... ...

Oh FFS.
03:07pm 23/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39516 posts
So when it's a small company? When it's a mega-corp that are bigger than some governments? Does that make it not okay for Apple or De Beers to 'manipulate' an election, but not Tuvalu as a country?
well it's about the resources, not about the nature of the entity wielding them. A nation-state typically has more resources than most large companies (unless it's Russia with their pathetic GDP of less than Italy ahah Apple should just buy Russia). Even though Mark Zuckerberg and I are both fairly generic standard issue white male single human entities, he is able to bring more resources to bear on certain issues because of his staggering wealth.

Making sure our political, social and technical systems are transparent enough so that he and other entities with many resources can't sockpuppet their way to effecting social change that is advantageous to them is the message (IMHO).
03:27pm 23/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7833 posts
Skydaddy has the right be offended by the gay

08:18pm 23/03/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3381 posts

If you like me, I saved you a google:

Lauren Cherie Southern (born 16 June[4] 1995) is a Canadian Libertarian right wing [5] political activist, Internet personality, and journalist[6][7] associated with the alt-right.[8][9][10] In 2015, Southern ran as a Libertarian Party candidate in the Canadian federal election. She worked for The Rebel Media until March 2017. In addition, she has written for Spiked,[11] the International Business Times, and The Libertarian Republic.[12] Southern continues to work independently and publishes videos on YouTube.
In May 2017, Southern took part in an attempt organized by the identitarian group Génération identitare to block the passage of an NGO ship, the Aquarius (co-owned by SOS Mediterranée and Doctors without Borders), which was leaving Sicily to start a search-and-rescue mission for ship-wrecked migrants off the shores of Northern Africa. Claiming that the goal of the activists "was to stop an empty boat from going down to Libya and filling up with illegal migrants", Southern was briefly detained by the Italian Coast Guard. NGO ships often rescue migrants and refugees, who disembark from Libyan shores on unsafe makeshift rafts, and bring them to Sicily. [36][37] With regard to her actions, Southern stated that "if the politicians won’t stop the boats, we’ll stop the boats."[13]

Southern supported similar actions by identitarian group Defend Europe, which chartered a vessel with the stated purpose of tracking and stopping collusion between NGOs and human traffickers. The group has been accused of intending to obstruct the rescue of migrants and refugees in distress at sea. In July 2017, Southern revealed that Patreon had deleted her account out of concerns about her "raising funds in order to take part in activities that are likely to cause loss of life."[38] Southern denied these allegations, stating that Defend Europe's actions were likely to save lives and that none of her funding went towards the group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Southern

She sounds lovely! Think we can all agree Islam isn't a religion that's receptive to criticism, yet didn't we all know that already? Just like we all knew that Christianity used to murder people by the thousands for 'blasphemy', among various other things. Not to mention there's plenty of Christian sub-groups that would violently oppose similar material. The Wesboro Baptist Church comes to mind. I dare say she could do the same experiment saying 'Jesus is gay' in a staunchly conservative Christian area and would get the same response.

The question of how do we be tolerant of intolerance whilst still tolerating the intolerant and not becoming intolerant ourselves, which I suppose is the deeper point, is a tough one no doubt.

which seems like a good default perspective for anything now whether true or false because at least it means people are QUESTIONING s***


I think this is actually one of Russia's geopolitical objectives, sans the 'coz its obvs the Russians' bit, with the overall disinformation strategies that we're seeing from them. They try to sow just enough doubt and deception into hot button topics so that people don't believe any official narrative and become progressively more distrusting of the relevant establishment. It's like an overly cynical or 'choose your own truth' attitude, which leads to inaction and creates systemic weaknesses that can be exploited. They talk about it a lot in their new warfare doctrines. Although they do think of it as a Western invention apparently, so perhaps they're just giving us some of our own medicine (and we no likey! As I think trog has illustrated).

The very “rules of war” have changed. The role of nonmilitary means of achieving political and strategic goals has grown, and, in many cases, they have exceeded the power of force of weapons in their effectiveness.

The focus of applied methods of conflict has altered in the direction of the broad use of political, economic, informational, humanitarian, and other nonmilitary measures — applied in coordination with the protest potential of the population.

All this is supplemented by military means of a concealed character, including carrying out actions of informational conflict and the actions of special-operations forces. The open use of forces — often under the guise of peacekeeping and crisis regulation — is resorted to only at a certain stage, primarily for the achievement of final success in the conflict.
https://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/
12:05am 24/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7834 posts
^ I agree... it was provocative

But it illustrates a point that we must all think about now and to the future:

Do ideological beliefs, fantasies and superstitions ie religion&cults have rights? And is it necessary to have to kowtow down to these hypocritical and oppressive religious customs to achieve social cohesion?

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 08:36:18 24/Mar/18
08:34am 24/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3109 posts
Not to mention there's plenty of Christian sub-groups that would violently oppose similar material. The Wesboro Baptist Church comes to mind. I dare say she could do the same experiment saying 'Jesus is gay' in a staunchly conservative Christian area and would get the same response.


In addition to what slaps said, the issue is not that a bunch of Muslims were pissed off, though one might wrap that argument by saying so f*****g what.

The issue, in that case, is that the government stepped in and effectively enforced Islamic intolerance by denying her a visa on the grounds she'd said something offensive to Muslims.

Compare if you would Jimmy Kimmel at the Oscars and his banal stab at pence. Do you think there is even the slightest chance he'd be denied a visa on the grounds he flat-out states he likes antagonizing Christians? The social cohesion argument only cuts the mustard if you can't offend anyone.

Which I might add is a powerful reason why taking someone being offended seriously in the name of social cohesion is obviously self-defeating. Everything is offensive to someone.

A clever man might draw some conclusions about Russian interference from that last sentence.
09:06am 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24028 posts
GB is gone. They are enforcing blasphemy laws for Islam because of hurt feelings, now joining the esteemed class of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Another country scratched off the bucket list.
10:13am 24/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5759 posts
GB is gone. They are enforcing blasphemy laws for Islam because of hurt feelings, now joining the esteemed class of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Another country scratched off the bucket list.


Haha. Some racist woman tries to troll Muslims and is surprised when shes banned from the country. Suddenly GB is too far gone.
01:07pm 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24029 posts
>Racist...
>Muslim.
heh

She said something (allah is gay) which has already been hypothesised about Jesus. They didn't ban/prosecute the people who suggested that. It's just an extreme version of virtue signalling because some Muslims said they were offended. Watch the footage. Predictable defense of political correctness over freedom of speech.
01:15pm 24/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26324 posts
Mmmm, those warm and fuzzies you feel when bigots receive poetic justice, with the sweet sprinkling of seeing another bigot throwing their toys out of the pram as a result. Occasionally the system works.
01:17pm 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24030 posts
Do you believe it is ok to say jesus is gay fpot?

What about Allah is gay?

You are saying it is right to ban someone from a country for making that statement?
01:26pm 24/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26325 posts
There was of course all the other stuff she did.
01:31pm 24/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5760 posts
It's irrelevant what the statement is. If it causes community uproar from a single person showing up on a visa, with the intention of trying to rile up the community, then yes, she should be banned. The police would know the kind of person she is. She's not there to try to discuss if Allah was gay. She's there to try to piss off Muslims and elicit a reaction.
01:32pm 24/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26326 posts
Allah is gay.

S*** I'm banned from the UK now 🙁
01:34pm 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24031 posts
There was of course all the other stuff she did.


like what?
01:52pm 24/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26327 posts
It's been posted in this very thread dumbshoes.
02:49pm 24/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3110 posts
It's been posted in this very thread dumbshoes.



Except that wasn't the reason she was stopped from entering the UK.

To say nothing of the fact the NGOs are helping create the situation they are trying to relieve. There was no doubt people were being crammed into boats that definately couldn't make the crossing to force being "rescued".

The NGO boats never to them back to North Africa.
03:18pm 24/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39518 posts
in which people spend years agitating for nation states to exert more control their borders specifically so they can keep out "undesirables" and then act all butthurt when border security mechanisms are, against all expectations, used to keep out undesirables

like if it was a muslim preacher rejected there'd be the same level of outrage

this person is a professional agitator and nothing else; i'd hope she would be denied access to australia. if her free speech is so f*****g amazing i can read about it on the internet
04:45pm 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24032 posts
So that's it: governments ban speakers they don't agree with from entering the country. No race hate or inciting violence required. Just different opinions. That's pretty sad.

But at least YouTube doesn't censor social and political commentary....
04:58pm 24/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3111 posts
this person is a professional agitator and nothing else; i'd hope she would be denied access to australia.


There is that reasonableness that we hear so much about hey trog. Enjoyable that the person saying Allah is gay is the undesirable in this equation, and not the hundreds of people willing to resort to violence for that being said. Or the police who think the correct response is to ban the person from saying it so as not to upset the people willing to resort to violence.

That's right up there with the abject lunacy of punching nazis.

like if it was a Muslim preacher rejected there'd be the same level of outrage


I wonder if the hypothetical Muslim preacher stands a near 99% chance of actively calling for violence.

this is your brain working in a tech company in London. he lived near a halal shop and was never sexually harrassed infi. He knows.
05:11pm 24/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26328 posts
But at least YouTube doesn't censor social and political commentary....
A commercial entity has decided it's probably a good thing profit wise not to have a bunch of dumb people saying dumb wrong stuff on their network. You should be celebrating this clear victory for the glorious free market!
05:27pm 24/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7836 posts
Islam isn't a race so is she a bigoted-hater? Is that even a word?
07:34pm 24/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2200 posts

https://www.crikey.com.au/2018/03/23/abc-tv-boss-calls-conservative-batman-candidate-to-apologise-for-tonightly-sketch/

Free speech warriors complain about free speech. Out of 1 to ten, I can't even.
08:53pm 24/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3113 posts
I can't even.


Yeah but that's also the story of your life.
09:04pm 24/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2201 posts
Yeah but that's also the story of your life.

Nice rebuttal champ!
09:49pm 24/03/18 Permalink
Vash
5761 posts
Join the rest of us and block his posts, he's just a self loathing troll redhat.
09:55pm 24/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2202 posts
10:05pm 24/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3115 posts
Nice rebuttal champ!


perfectly tailored to the level of your point champ.
10:07pm 24/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24033 posts
I think volunteering an apology is a little lower on the s*** sandwich ladder than being perm banned from a country.
09:52am 25/03/18 Permalink
taggs
6547 posts
Free speech warriors complain about free speech.


That's such a patently dumb characterisation of that incident that it's pretty hard to interpret as anything other than deliberate misrepresentation.
10:03am 25/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39519 posts
If you like me, I saved you a google:
thank you for the summary of this nobody who is trying to start a religious war. I went to her website to see if there was any more nuance to her positions but it's basically a collection of her instagram photos and some info about some super in depth 'documentary' she made after spending two weeks in Africa

The best part though is she actually calls all her financial supporters 'comrades' ahahahah
10:05am 25/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24034 posts
A commercial entity has decided it's probably a good thing profit wise not to have a bunch of dumb people saying dumb wrong stuff on their network. You should be celebrating this clear victory for the glorious free market!


She's not saying anything wrong. She is perceived to be hurting some people's feelings. But it is well established that YouTube is censoring and demonetising posters they disapprove of even if they have broken no laws.

I was being ironic because you would expect a government to be less reflexive on hurt feelings especially when an identical idea had been suggested about one imaginary being without consequence, but when supporters of their favoured imaginary being is offended to demonstrate their wokeness they perm ban the offender.

It's pretty sad state of affairs. Britain is a mere shadow of its former self cowed by Muslim protestors.
10:20am 25/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
962 posts
Didn't we stop the anti-vaxer lady coming here to do a tour? or did she get in, I didn't really follow it, but heard the noise around it.
02:02pm 25/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26331 posts
But it is well established that YouTube is censoring and demonetising posters they disapprove of even if they have broken no laws.


... like I said. Commercial entity doesn't want dumb wrong people saying dumb wrong things on their network because it affects their ad dollars.
08:22pm 25/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7837 posts
Mein Youtube



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 20:33:00 25/Mar/18
08:30pm 25/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
964 posts
I might read this guys article once a month. What is he saying today?

https://i.imgur.com/vqAai1T.jpg

Appears to be mentioning how exaggeration, and twisting things is common. He calls it "lies".

Interesting observation Mr Bolt.
01:36pm 26/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26334 posts
A convicted racist writes about a convicted racist.

A Black Mirror episode where a normal person's consciousness is transplanted into the mind of the sort of person who would read something like this and think it has merit would be really cool I reckon. I'd volunteer but only on the condition that I can return to my functioning mind.
03:18pm 26/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
965 posts
So I take it you don't agree with Bolt's opinion. You have more insight into these issues?
08:56pm 26/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26335 posts
There was once a time people like Bolt used to mystify me. Until I realised Bolt exists only to appease those who hold similar views yet somehow understand the shame they should feel for being so dumb. Maybe some sort of internal battle with their own subconscious, angry at the conscious mind for showing such poor judgement? I dunno, but when the big strong man says the things I think in my head on the television screen it makes it all better.
09:23pm 26/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26337 posts
I wonder why trump is having such a hard time finding a lawyer to represent him re: Russia.
12:48pm 27/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
966 posts
and Bolt quotes Dutton's comment regarding "hard workers" which I never heard/read till that article.

I've hardly paid much attention to the recent SA saga. It's an old story. The persecuted white business owners in many nations ran into trouble once order leaves the nation to it's own devices. It's normally the time to get out. These ones overstayed their welcome and the danger has been growing. Maybe they should fly to Naru?

Another twisting by the ABC:

ABC journalist Louise Milligan has flatly rejected an accusation she tried to "poison the public's mind" against Cardinal George Pell as her credibility came under attack from his defence barrister during a fiery court hearing. Ms Milligan is being cross-examined by defence barrister Robert Richter QC at the start of the final week of Cardinal Pell's committal hearing as he fights historical sexual offence charges involving multiple complainants. The journalist was grilled for a full day on her investigation into allegations made against Cardinal Pell, which were aired on ABC TV's 730 and detailed in Ms Milligan's subsequent book. Mr Richter accused Ms Milligan of failing to report that there were "critical differences" between the account one of the complainants gave her about the alleged sexual offending and what he had written in his police statement. "What would give a proper picture of the credibility of the allegation?" Mr Richter asked. "What you did, or to say that …[the complainant] gave police statements in which he did not say those things?" Ms Milligan explained that she was acting on advice she had received from ABC management and senior queens counsel and said she stood by the story.
06:20pm 27/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39524 posts
What is 'twisty' here? ABC reporting on another ABC journalist's participation in a trial of a witch doctor? You left out this part: "Magistrate Belinda Wallington interjected and said the words "respect and dignity come to mind" in how the cross-examination should be approached." (presumably because the defence was going off the rails)

you pick some f*****' weird windmills to tilt at bro, been a while since we saw someone do that around these parts (well not that long)
10:26pm 27/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3120 posts
It's the Fun Police!


The best part is teaching a dog to do the Nazis salute was a crime in nazi germany because it was disrespectful to Nazis.

Scotland: fighting nazi intollerance by criminalisation of behaviour Nazis found disrespectful.

Kicking goals with both feet.


meanwhile the Labor party leader defends imagery of Jewish bankers hurting workers (literally nazi propaganda). And then dismisses the obvious anti-Semitism as an international Jewish conspiracy.

Thank God we can tell who the Nazis are amiright! We got that pug owner good.

We are truly through the looking glass.
07:43am 28/03/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13742 posts
Mmmm, those warm and fuzzies you feel when bigots receive poetic justice, with the sweet sprinkling of seeing another bigot throwing their toys out of the pram as a result. Occasionally the system works.


hold onto that feeling as long as you can
the principals you are advocating for will inevitably be used against you, as an ever-increasing number of people from your area of the political compass seem surprised to be learning first-hand
12:28pm 28/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26338 posts
I will. Surely it's a good thing, just this once, to see someone refused entry to a country not for the colour of their skin but for the content of their character. Rare and good

But I get it. First they came for the bigots and I laughed because I wasn't a bigot. Then they came for a few different types of people before eventually getting around to coming for whatever type of person I am. I guess they'll call me a extremist left winger or something. That will be a bad day because that's the system not working, from my point of view anyway. If we can manage to stop the fourth reich happening though I think I'll be sweet. We just have to be sure to be real nice to the nazis and to make sure we let them march, listen calmly to their point of view, offering our own reasoned and well-thought out arguments to change their minds and get them back on the path to sanity.
12:58pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3121 posts
I will. Surely it's a good thing, just this once, to see someone refused entry to a country not for the colour of their skin but for the content of their character. Rare and good


Fpot with his extensive knowledge and experience of immigration policy (which totally isn't misinformed jingoism, he reads crikey afterall), when pressed, will be able to find a single (just one) example of a migrant being excluded from the UK "for the colour of their skin" in the last 60 years. Not a left wing euphemism for skin colour. A document saying person X is the wrong colour and can't come in.

Ironic isn't that he talks about Nazis in the UK at the moment. The UK is really handling the Nazi question well.

we can manage to stop the fourth reich happening though I think I'll be sweet.


Virtually guarantees he can't spot an actual Nazi.
01:19pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13743 posts
They weren't refused entry on the content of their character, they were refused entry because it was alleged they 'were involved in the distribution of racist material in Luton' - this is a quote from a screenshot of the letter she received from the Home Office.

Do you know what she was actually doing in Luton? I'd like to hear it in your words


Also do you actually think the sarcastic latter part of your response is intellectually sound? Do you really think that subjective morals are a good way to determine what is and isn't allowed to be said?
01:25pm 28/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26340 posts
No, but I do think subjective morals are a good way to determine a reaction to things that are said. No one is stopping her from saying anything, they've just denied her access into the UK. Subjective morals are also a good way to determine who can come into a country and who can't.

She was handing out Allah is gay placards or something. Well she was planning to. Why does she need to be in the UK to do that?

edit: oh I checked and she was banned from previous incident, handing out the placards. Don't have a clue why she was there this time. To apologise and repent? To visit a sick grandma? To pull excalibur out of the stone? Don't really care to be honest.
01:50pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3122 posts
Subjective morals are also a good way to determine who can come into a country and who can't.


Well I guess that means fpot is perfectly comfortable with our offshore detention centers.

Dutton subjectively thinks they are for holding queue jumpers.

Job done offshore detention justified.
01:56pm 28/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39528 posts
Do you really think that subjective morals are a good way to determine what is and isn't allowed to be said?
it's not reaaaaaaaaaaally the situation here though. It's not like someone was kicked out or jailed or whatever. It was just some s****tirrer non-citizen who was obviously(?) coming back into the country to stir more s***.

edit: I guess I'm saying I do think it's possible to make subjective decisions about letting people into the country as visitors based on the kind of speech they're expected to engage in. We do this all the time already in Australia (antivaxxers, etc). (If this was a Muslim preaching a Caliphate or open borders or something trying to get into the UK most of the people complaining about whatsherface probably would not be blinking an eyelid if they were rejected entry. )
02:03pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3123 posts
It's not like someone was kicked out or jailed or whatever.


She was detained for two days and then deported so it's actually exactly like that.

It was just some s****tirrer non-citizen who was obviously(?) coming back into the country to stir more s***.


The s*** in this sentence was pointing out doctrinaire Islam's intolerance of gay people.


We can casually note that the Saudi prince who criminalises homosexuality strangely got through the net.
02:13pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13744 posts
I disagree that subjective morals are a good way to determine who can come into a country, because it means that whoever is in power can impose unfair and unreasonable restrictions on people's freedoms. I feel this way whether the person who is denied entry holds views similar to mine or not - for example I probably share some of your dislike for some of the immigration decisions being made in Australia over the past few years - and I also feel the same way in this case with Lauren Southern, someone I'd never heard of prior to this incident and someone who appears to hold significantly different political views to my own.


As for what she did: she and a couple of other people set up a stall in Luton acting as LGBT activists to publicly advocate the notion that Allah is accepting of gay people, to produce footage demonstrating the double standards exhibited by sections of western society on matters of religion and offense.

Why she needs to be in the UK or not to do what she wants to do is beside the point - unless you can show me otherwise?


Here's a link to the supposed screenshot of the letter she received from the Home Office: https://i.imgur.com/vBROGQr.jpg

Are you able to show me:

1) where she admitted to distributing racist material as the letter claims
2) that she distributed racist material whether she admits it or not

Or that the screenshot or say, anything in this video is false? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxjH5hZYTbQ
02:22pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13745 posts
it's not reaaaaaaaaaaally the situation here though. It's not like someone was kicked out or jailed or whatever. It was just some s****tirrer non-citizen who was obviously(?) coming back into the country to stir more s***.


I was probably conflating this issue with the count dankula one a bit when I said that, as that issue is on my mind right now as well, and is fundamentally related


edit: I guess I'm saying I do think it's possible to make subjective decisions about letting people into the country as visitors based on the kind of speech they're expected to engage in. We do this all the time already in Australia (antivaxxers, etc). (If this was a Muslim preaching a Caliphate or open borders or something trying to get into the UK most of the people complaining about whatsherface probably would not be blinking an eyelid if they were rejected entry. )


Not that long ago I thought it was good that people were trying to get sherri tenpenny (anti-vaxxer) blocked from entering Australia, but later realised I was completely wrong. I shortsightedly thought that because I was on the right side on vaccines, I was justified in thinking she should be refused entry. I shortsightedly thought that because it was a public health issue that there was good reason for it. But all it's doing is bolstering support for her and her ilk which is just the short-term failure of that principle. The long-term failure is that it sets precedents and creeps the social conscience on what guidelines can be used to prevent people from doing things.
02:32pm 28/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26341 posts
Yeah but that's the challenge isn't it. To make sure the right people are elected so they don't impose unfair restrictions on people's freedoms. The thing is I don't think denying visitation rights to a person is unfair. Denying her entry should she be seeking asylum, or some other compelling reason, would be unfair or perhaps even illegal but that isn't what happened. The point is she is free to say and do whatever she wants, just not wherever she wants.

I agree that letter is thin as f***, but is that the sole paperwork that exists in regards to her banning? There was no supplemental paperwork, no investigation, no other discussion involved? They just jotted down that letter, handed it to her and that's it? Because if we are going to examine the facts in this case, looking at a single letter and a youtube video produced and edited by the perpetrator seems to not be the whole picture to me.
03:10pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3124 posts
The long-term failure is that it sets precedents and creeps the social conscience on what guidelines can be used to prevent people from doing things.


Well that and the consequences of being denied entry can be non-trivial. Deportation is a fairly serious affair and it is perfectly reasonable to expect clear rules around when it will be used.
03:23pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13746 posts
Yeah but that's the challenge isn't it. To make sure the right people are elected so they don't impose unfair restrictions on people's freedoms. The thing is I don't think denying visitation rights to a person is unfair. Denying her entry should she be seeking asylum, or some other compelling reason, would be unfair or perhaps even illegal but that isn't what happened. The point is she is free to say and do whatever she wants, just not wherever she wants.


If there was evidence that they actually had a good reason to refuse entry, I'd find it less reprehensible. Even perhaps if they were more straight up and just admitted it was because they didn't want to have to deal with potential unruliness in the event she set up a similar stall in a town somewhere again. That would still be weak as f***, but at least less insidious than dishonestly using the racism card.


I agree that letter is thin as f***, but is that the sole paperwork that exists in regards to her banning? There was no supplemental paperwork, no investigation, no other discussion involved? They just jotted down that letter, handed it to her and that's it? Because if we are going to examine the facts in this case, looking at a single letter and a youtube video produced and edited by the perpetrator seems to not be the whole picture to me.


Not that I've been able to find. She was detained in Calais under the terrorism act when attempting to use the chunnel into England, so it doesn't seem there's reason to expect something more formal and long-winded. It wasn't an application made for a visa weeks or months in advance, she's a Canadian citizen so doesn't need to apply for an entry visa into the UK.

I'm open to other information on this issue which is why I used the language I did earlier about the screenshot and video, knowing they both came from the person herself
04:09pm 28/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24035 posts
She was detained for two days and then deported so it's actually exactly like that.


it was only two days, calm down.
04:18pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
967 posts

What is 'twisty' here?


Apparently she was misleading in her twisting of what was actually reported to police, and what was communicated via her journalism.

She, like this other one from the ABC makes a life out of sensationalising crimes. I expect our national broadcaster to have more integrity with who they have reporting.

http://www.kmc.nsw.gov.au/Things_to_do/Events_activities/Whats_on/Author_encounter_with_Jamelle_Wells

Personally I'd like to see Pell and his friends get hung, but it's not the point.
05:34pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3125 posts
it was only two days, calm down.


I'm not saying she's suffered indescribable torture. But the fact of the matter is that she was literally detained and then kicked out. That's what deportation is.

Hence this statement:

It's not like someone was kicked out or jailed or whatever.


Is virtually the opposite of reality.

In any event, the deeper target is the blatant attitude of "I don't like this person so I'm ok with it" which the minimisation of the issue is evidence of, while at the same time saying this:

(If this was a Muslim preaching a Caliphate or open borders or something trying to get into the UK most of the people complaining about whatsherface probably would not be blinking an eyelid if they were rejected entry. )


That's calling the kettle black while doing a bomb dive into the tar. It's not even pretending to hold a principled view on the issue.

To make that point leap a little higher, if you think subjective criteria for visas are totally fine don't ever complain about immigration policy again.
06:07pm 28/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24036 posts
I'm not saying she's suffered indescribable torture.


I was being ironic. Being detained when having committed no crime except for hurt feelings is a ridiculous deprivation of liberty. and just plain bad governing. That's UK Islamisation for you.
07:05pm 28/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39529 posts
The long-term failure is that it sets precedents and creeps the social conscience on what guidelines can be used to prevent people from doing things.
Isn't that just describing the process by which we make laws for pretty much everything though? That is the eternal back-and-forth battle between the law and liberties.

I don't know much about the person banned from entering the UK, but I just thought it was noteworthy that she ran to Nigel Farage who has done nothing but whine about wanting stronger border controls, and now is whining that strong border controls were used against someone he (presumably) supports. So I certainly totally take your point - making these laws might mean they end up working against your interests later (even if I don't give a s*** when things don't go Farage's way :)

(Antivaxxers is another issue; I would argue that letting them into the country to spread their message is far more dangerous than letting them do it online at arms length. We already tolerate massive limits on our speech (usually unquestionably) when it comes to healthcare, and I think it's important because of all the people peddling snake oil.)
07:26pm 28/03/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24038 posts
and now is whining that strong border controls were used against someone he (presumably) supports


against illegal immigrants jumping on tunnel trucks, c'mon, dont be so obtuse
07:34pm 28/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39530 posts
you missed the point so massively
07:35pm 28/03/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26342 posts
This is the bit where he asks you to explain your point, which you'll do, then he'll miss it again.
07:38pm 28/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3126 posts
you missed the point so massively


Did he though?

The simple fact is in denying her a visa they are putting state authority behind homophobia.

It's fascinating to see how far the intersectional stack has seeped into the mainstream.

Trog is essentially arguing that provoking a response from a minority group justifies excluding someone, even when to take the bait is ironclad proof of views he'd otherwise find reprehensible.

Pretty much proving the point of the leaflet drop. While we're missing points.
07:51pm 28/03/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2207 posts
09:30pm 29/03/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3382 posts
Yeah I see and agree with your point Slaps, et al. I suppose I think Lauren Southern is lacking objectivity as she has a clear right-wing bias she's intentionally trying to justify through actions predesigned to support her point, so this weakens her argument in that form imo. I'd be interested in who funds her.

I don't think she should have been denied a visa for the activism we saw her do in the video in Luton. I can however totally understand if they denied it based on her record and links to other right-wing groups / activism, as some of her other activism is pretty poor to say the least. The letter doesn't mention any of that though and incorrectly cites racism, wtf?

It's interesting to me to see how quickly those on either side of the political spectrum dismiss the objective laws when it's about people on the opposite side or views that they disagree with, I guess that's bias for you!

It reminds me of that old adage, I think the quote is: 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. We're not seeing much of that here though!

I tend to agree with Jim. I'm not sure you can base the application of law on subjective morals and then rely on electing the 'right' people. Who are the 'right' people? Isn't that also entirely subjective? isn't that essentially what we have now and the crux of the whole culture / identity war we're currently having?
11:19pm 29/03/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39535 posts
What is the alternative?
09:00pm 30/03/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3127 posts
What is the alternative?


Actual LOL.

It's like not playing politics with a system that already has clear rules, is like some crazy rare policy unicorn.

Here is the alternative. If you can't point to a crime or a an active call for violence you issue the f*****g visa.

It really isn't difficult. It's childishly simple if you haven't inserted your head deep into your own anus.

Did anyone here know who the f*** that Tenpenny woman was until she was given a national/international platform by the utter morons at DFAT?

It was a fractal of bad policy, there is no conceivable level on which it didn't make the situation worse. And same goes for southern.
09:36am 31/03/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
968 posts
Applying and getting knocked back can generate great publicity. The social media echo chamber works well with the left wall amplification machine. The message gets right out there.

I often get a chuckle from my government news broadcaster giving anger oxygen to something I didn't even know about, but may support once I do know about it. Thank you ABC.

A great recent example was the outrage at that Top 100 by that right wing leader. Entertainment types tweeting their dislike. ABC and Guardian promoting it intently. The laughter and joy was great. It gave that party significant publicity.
10:43am 31/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7838 posts
02:57pm 31/03/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7839 posts
Brave brown man

10:54am 01/04/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13747 posts
happy easter y'all
03:32am 02/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2208 posts
happy easter y'all

Happy equinox QGL.
06:56pm 02/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39536 posts
how about this Spring St thing going on in Victoria!!!

I had no idea pairing was just something done on the honour system
12:06pm 03/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26348 posts
Say what
02:58pm 03/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39538 posts
link

basically, two religious extremists asked to be excused from parliament so they could go to some pagan festival thing on Friday last week. They arranged a "pair" so found people voting the opposite way - the pair then cancel each other out so they don't need to vote.

BUT the two people who asked to be excused then came back later to vote anyway.

political ball tampering!
04:03pm 03/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
970 posts

Great article. Gave me a laugh.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9610412-3x2-940x627.jpghttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-02/victorian-greens-mp-nina-springle-being-comforted-in-parliament/9610420

Whats her environmental footprint? I think that hair defect she has could be related to madness.



Mixed reports. More mixed than the ABC's coverage:

WHAT THEY SAID: * "Those people who prayed in front of us and begged us to let them go returned after we'd given them a pair on the twelfth hour, right at the end. The death knell of this legislation was when they smugly returned to the parliament to betray parliamentary convention" - Leader of Legislative Council Gavin Jennings. * "Am so proud of my Upper House colleagues and the MPs who stood up for our CFA today and defeated the Andrews Govt plan to smash it up. The Liberal Nationals will always stand up for volunteers against this bully of a Premier" - Opposition leader Matthew Guy, in a tweet. * "This is totally unprecedented. Two Liberal MP's asked for (what turned out to be) fake pairs for 'religious observance'. They hid in their offices till Labor MP's who paired them left the building. They then snuck back in for the vote. Never ever happened before" - Attorney General Martin Pakula, in a tweet. * "We saw an act of treachery in the Victorian Parliament today with two Liberal MPs returning to the chamber to thwart a vote on long overdue rights to firefighters compensation" - Victorian Greens spokesperson for Emergency Services, Samantha Dunn. * "This the dirtiest political trick I have ever seen in my 20 years around parliaments ... They have completely lost the trust and respect of the crossbench" - Reason MP Fiona Patten. * "Bernie Finn and Craig Ondarchie were hiding in their offices like rats after emotionally claiming they couldn't work on good Friday because Jesus died on this day." - Labor MP Nick Staikos, in a tweet. * "We're very proud today as the Liberal Nationals, for having saved the CFA and the thousands of volunteers who put themselves out there for our safety." - Shadow Attorney-General John Pesutto. * "GOD - they played the GOD CARD. Over and over again. So they got the pair. Two Labor MPs went home. Then at the 11th hour they brought their two God-fearing MPs back." - Victorian Greens MP Huong Truong, in a tweet.
https://i.imgur.com/mV6tNGy.jpg
06:42pm 03/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5762 posts
Let's tease a politician for being emotional over a bill that has alot of meaning to her. You're just a quality human aren't you Nmag.

How about we look at the two piece of s*** liberal MPs who breached parliamentary conventions.
09:25pm 03/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3128 posts
Heh

Linking cancer compensation to major changes to the CFA isn't a piece of s*** move. Refusing to alter the legislation their own emergency services Minister resigned over isn't the piece of s*** move. Forcing parliament to sit on good Friday to try to distort the numbers isn't a piece of s*** move.

Not honouring a convention vash didn't know existed until yesterday that's the piece of s*** move.

Someone crying over legislation is how vash can tell the legislation is important.

He prizes emotional transparency in his leaders.

What a Trainwreck of a human.


Happy Easter Jim.
07:26am 04/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
971 posts
Vash, my suspicions are that it was a piece of s*** bill that serves left wing agenda. Generally speaking, if she cried over a bill, it gives me confidence that the right action was taken to stop the bill. Are you supportive of the bill? If she supports it, you support it? If she cries, then it's likely the bill was good? If those pollies had to do that to stop it, I'm confident there was reason for it.

Also, it's your ABC who posted the photo of her shedding 'liberal tears'.

I don't know the back story, but I'm confident the 'green' environmental angle to the bill would be interesting to discuss.

It's a great photo. Quality journalism from fellow quality human beings.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9610412-3x2-940x627.jpg
06:40pm 04/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39542 posts
just too obvious a troll now to even bother replying any more
07:09pm 04/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39543 posts
While Nmag is basing his entire political philosophy on what makes women cry and what they look like when they do, something on the lighter side: seeing these coal stooges getting pwned by basically everyone for misappropriating Monash's name. One of the Monash family was just on the radio and gave them a serve for using his name.

edit: speaking of trolls, Abbott is goin' pro:
Former prime minister Tony Abbott will mark the Turnbull government's 30th losing Newspoll by visiting the electricity generation hub of the Latrobe Valley, as he ramps up his campaign for new taxpayer-funded coal-fired power stations..
...
That day is also expected to see the Turnbull government's much-anticipated 30th Newspoll loss in a row. Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull memorably cited Mr Abbott's loss of 30 consecutive Newspolls as a key reason for knifing the former PM in 2015 - of which Mr Turnbull has been reminded by commentators ever since.
07:18pm 04/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26349 posts
Abbott hated because he's s*** and Turnbull hated because he's not Abbott.

edit: does anyone else think back to 2013 when Abbott was in power how awful he was and how after all that hoo-hah about Labor's supposed incompetence he could come and f*** up things so comprehensively? And how that all seems so quaint now and if only we could go back to those sweet innocent times?
08:08pm 04/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7840 posts
Ok it's knifey time!

Who will stab Fizzer?

Contenders are... The Stick Insect, Scummo, Creepy Pete or Mabbot?

09:38pm 04/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24039 posts
I am hoping Dutton gets the gong. He gets stuff done.
10:19pm 04/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39544 posts
does getting the gong mean something difference since the days of Hey Hey It's Saturday?
01:33pm 05/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24040 posts
gong - a medal or award
02:30pm 05/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39545 posts
wow. I've never heard that expression before (or at least, it's never stuck in my brain)
02:53pm 05/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26351 posts
For Excellence in Brown People Torture and Overseeing More Murders than Resettlements, it's Peter Dutton.
03:31pm 05/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
972 posts
entire


Oh really?

troll


yah maybe sometimes. How can one not be tempted to see the outburst.

The image is provocative for some, amusing for others. The emotional response by those touched by the image is outstanding. It's an indication of the spanning greatness of the rift between irrationally motivated compassion, and possibly cruel yet analytical effective logic thought. I have learned participating in this long thread that these Green people tend to be very warm and compassionate, however reserve irrationally charged rants at those who they have been brainwashed into hating.

This hate thing is fascinating. I could almost graph it. I would need to stick two bits of A4 together to fit Vash's column graph on it. fpot, well.. it's like he tires so hard to hold back, but explodes irrationally. These things can happen when your mentally frustrated. You can get help for that kind of stuff. Basically keep the thoughts simple to avoid overloads and short circuits. Trog, well it's more a sly, almost attempting to appear apolitical, yet comes out with things like Excel spreadsheets with a bias to the left. Using a respected role to administer ones political skews onto the naive could be interpreted as slightly sinister. Yet he has the capability to hold back, not forever, but longer. The use of absolutes erodes the integrity. Your points would be more solid if you avoided them. They are lazy, and should be reserved for those with mild intellectual handicaps... like one of those other guys who throw them around willy nilly... all the time

https://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/03407_3407_hellborn_front_mg.jpg

I do grasp the concept of the growing class gap and the impact of our exponentially expanding human habitation and impact on this planet. I can only think of 2 solutions:

1. We find another planet, which is very unlikley

2. We get the technology to build a machine that can repopulate the earth, and we put some eggs and sperm in it and put it under ground (or in space.. maybe the moon?) and set off all the nukes. The machine needs to wait maybe a thousand years and then start up. Bit like Fallout but better. It's the only way, and you know it. Tinkering and stuffing around with minor changes in behaviour are unlikely to achieve any substantial planet saving change. I know you greens love this revolution stuff. It's the stuff of dreams.

Once our planet was reset, the division would begin. John would want a better cave, and Joe will want the better club. The idea of everyone having the same nice cave and club is cute but it's just not how it works.

Forgive me if we are expected to be confident about our ability to wind back the spiralling out of control civilisation (and remaining savages) that we have become.

It is difficult to consider this and maintain sensible contribution to finding a solution.

or we could hate on the orange man with a red hat, and the leaders of the local parties, and each other more.

PS: Battlefield 1 servers in OC are stuffed, tonight, like last night.
09:51pm 05/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7841 posts
fpot, you are obsessed with skin pigmentation. I think you are Chromophobic!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromophobia
12:28pm 06/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26352 posts
Nmag, I have to congratulate you. I finally have no idea which alt account you are. The timing suggests Faceman, the emotional immaturity suggests Tdog and the pure level of derangement suggests Door. Judging by the age of your account it's a parachute of some kind, I just don't know whose. Or maybe Faceman, Tdog and Door were always the same person. That would blow my f*****g mind. It would kinda make sense with you being some kind of Frankensteined combination of the three.

Or you could just be some dips*** lurker finally unleashing a decades worth of dumb, but that would be boring.
06:29pm 06/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
973 posts
You have a wild imagination. Maybe I am you as well? and Vash?

Is this the kind of stuff you dream up while weaving baskets?

What do you think about point "2"... The planet reset strategy? Are more wind farms the answer?
01:05am 07/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26353 posts
I think point 2 is the high level derangement that could possibly mean you're Door.
10:50am 07/04/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41058 posts
must say fpot, your cataloging and recall of qgl crackpots is first class!
11:20am 07/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2209 posts
I cannot find a flaw with this plan.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaJLjqzVAAAUbrq.jpg
11:45am 07/04/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41059 posts
i believe the greens have crackpot helmet ideas though, so they will never rule.
11:47am 07/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26354 posts
For anyone who likes following trainwrecks of humanity on twitter Sean Hannity is having a pretty epic meltdown right now.
01:18pm 07/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7842 posts
Lawl

01:44pm 07/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24041 posts
*cringe*
01:54pm 07/04/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3383 posts
That Green policy summary sounds pretty good apart from staving public schools of funding. If the economics can work, we'll never know if we never try! Oh wait we have and it can totes work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

The 'Weinstein Jn' angle is pretty rich coming from Hannity given his support of Bill Shine, Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes in the face of their sexual harassment. Not to mention his own no doubt nuanced views on women.



Hannity is about as reprehensible as they come. It's almost sad watching these 'political pundits' try to compete with comedians, don't they know this is a comedian's bread and butter? Reminds me of that time Tomi Lahren went against Trevor Noah on the Daily Show. I suppose it's all good s*** for ratings at the end of the day.
08:34pm 07/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5763 posts
staving public schools of funding


Read it again, they are for cutting public funding to private schools, not public schools.
09:16pm 07/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3129 posts
That Green policy summary sounds pretty good apart from staving public schools of funding. If the economics can work, we'll never know if we never try! Oh wait we have and it can totes work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model


are there any economic measures that the nordics actually beat Australia on? That green policy sounds like fanciful bulls***, and they need to worry about not letting the awesome power of not getting elected not get to their heads. that Batman bi-election hey. Watch out, the greens will self-destruct over pre-selection, in a principled fashion of course. God help them if they had any actual power to fight over.

It's almost sad watching these 'political pundits' try to compete with comedians, don't they know this is a comedian's bread and butter?


Maybe but Hannity has a point, even if he is hypocritical. seems like mocking someone's accent in their fifth language is pretty sad, seems a little xenophobic from someone purporting to be the conscience of America. Seems like suggesting Hannity walks around with a permanent erection because of trump is a little homophobic. But I thought he hates homophobes, remember how he called pence homophobic at the Oscars?

The bit would have been better if Kimmel had have wept and brought out his kid.
09:19pm 07/04/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3384 posts
Oh right, ta Vash.

Ahh, from a quick look Norway is #1 on the HDI and Aus is #2, Norway is also #3 on GDP per capita whilst Aus is 9th. Aus is beating all the other Nordic countries though and is ranked super high regardless, so maybe you're right. Those are all from circa 2015/2016/17 though. Be interesting to see if the recent liberal years will change any of that.

Fair point. I'll still take Kimmel over Hannity if it's a choice.
09:35pm 07/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3130 posts
Yeah when referring to Norway, always keep in mind a near trillion dollar oil (environmentally friendly of course) fund that is split between an ethnically homogeneous 5 million people. and GPD per capita needs to be measured against PPP. Not that our cost of living is amazing, but Norway is bulls*** and at least in part because of the oil money.

Those are all from circa 2015/2016/17 though. Be interesting to see if the recent liberal years will change any of that.


At the risk of being obtuse, those were all liberal years.

I'll still take Kimmel over Hannity if it's a choice.


You could recognise both of them are s*** stirring immoral hypocrites trying to get eyeballs and *absolutely nothing more*. That's an option on the table too.
09:58pm 07/04/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41061 posts
Tones salty tears are the most delicious evar!
05:10pm 08/04/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3385 posts
Aha, so they were, and Abbott years at that! :o

Oh but I do Pete, that's what I meant by 'all good for ratings'.

To segue, I now throw this at you. Richest 1% on target to own two-thirds of all wealth by 2030
08:44pm 08/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24042 posts
let's do a reset, confiscate all the wealth by gun point. everyone will be rich in utopia.
09:02pm 08/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3131 posts
Oh but I do Pete, that's what I meant by 'all good for ratings'.

Point taken.

Richest 1% on target to own two-thirds of all wealth by 2030


So the future will be more equal than the occupy catch phrase ;P.

Again at the risk of being obtuse, it's difficult to take an article with this in it seriously.

The actor Michael Sheen, who has opted to scale back his Hollywood career to campaign against high-interest credit providers, was among those supporting the calls.


Oh good, an actor with opinion. He hasn't given up his wealth I note.

Income inequality needs to be considered against what the average wage looks like. If a majority of people can carve out a comfortable life in the remaining third who cares?

The obsession with wealthy people when the average person can easily make a decent living strikes as unproductive and unhelpful.
09:12pm 08/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39548 posts
let's build a strawman and set fire to it and huddle around its warmth instead of talking about reality
08:30am 09/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24044 posts
How would you deal with massive gain in wealth in the 1%?
08:40am 09/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2210 posts
How would you deal with massive gain in wealth in the 1%?


We've covered it.
https://www.booktopia.com.au/http_coversbooktopiacomau/big/9780674979857/capital-in-the-twenty-first-century.jpg
12:55pm 09/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3132 posts
We've covered it.


Almost no point asking, but have you read it?

Still almost no point asking, but does Piketty ever address why wealth inequality matters? it's a serious question. I don't expect a cogent answer.
03:18pm 09/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26355 posts
We don't take kindly to any book learnin' round these parts pardner!
06:34pm 09/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3133 posts
We don't take kindly to any book learnin' round these parts pardner!


Little unintended honesty hey fpot.
06:54pm 09/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2211 posts
Almost no point asking, but have you read it?


Yeah about 4 years ago.

Still almost no point asking, but does Piketty ever address why wealth inequality matters?


I can't remember any parts about the philosophy or morality of inequality, but it was a while ago and a pretty long read.

Do you think inequality matters?
07:11pm 09/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7843 posts
AngryJordies

07:12pm 09/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3134 posts
Do you think inequality matters?


Wealth inequality. And it depends.

I can't remember any parts about the philosophy or morality of inequality, but it was a while ago and a pretty long read.


Doesn't strike you as a bit of a problem? I'd have thought the so-called seminal work on wealth inequality would have had a fairly compelling reason to dedicate nearly 600 pages to it.

There is no a priori reason to be pre-occupied with it. I feel I've made my position incredibly clear. If poverty continues to go away (which it does and there is no serious challenge to that by anyone including Piketty) I don't see a reason to care. bill gates having 100 billiion dollars does not mean I can't have a comfortable life (or indeed most people on the planet).

the other main string to his bow is that it distorts democracy. Ok semi-plausible, but apply that thinking to Brexit.
07:56pm 09/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2212 posts
It might have some small section on inequality being problematic, but he's an economist, not a philosopher.

It spent a lot of time proving that inequality will grow because money simply makes more money.

It also delved into the how the inequality growth could be addressed, one of the prominent ideas put forward was wealth tax instead of or reduced income tax.


There is no a priori reason to be pre-occupied with it. I feel I've made my position incredibly clear. If poverty continues to go away (which it does and there is no serious challenge to that by anyone including Piketty) I don't see a reason to care. bill gates having 100 billiion dollars does not mean I can't have a comfortable life (or indeed most people on the planet).

the other main string to his bow is that it distorts democracy. Ok semi-plausible, but apply that thinking to Brexit.


We could have better public services, and or just work less instead of a small amount of people having a lot.
08:57pm 09/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3135 posts
It might have some small section on inequality being problematic, but he's an economist, not a philosopher.
It also delved into the how the inequality growth could be addressed,


You don't see those as linked? Why address it if it isn't a problem? It would be like producing six hundred page document on why the sky is too blue on a sunny day and what can be done to change it without explaining why you want to change it.

If he hasn't clearly set out objective empirical grounds to think wealth inequality has measurable negative effects on well-being what possible reason is there to address it? Poverty has had an uninterrupted downward trajectory in the same time span he measures wealth inequality. so there is a prima facie reason to favour the status quo.

We could have better public services, and or just work less instead of a small amount of people having a lot.


This simply does not follow from reducing wealth inequality. Poverty reduction and wealth inequality are not the same thing.

the other main string to his bow is that it distorts democracy. Ok semi-plausible, but apply that thinking to Brexit.


I understand if you don't want to address that.
09:42pm 09/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39549 posts
How would you deal with massive gain in wealth in the 1%?
I guess the first step is to get everyone on the same page and acknowledge that a) wealth concentration is in fact a big problem and b) its the policies and laws we've had to date that have lead to this point. Are we prepared to do that yet?
08:18am 10/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3136 posts
a) wealth concentration is in fact a big problem and b) its the policies and laws we've had to date that have lead to this point


Maybe a preferred strategy might be to detail clearly and persuasively why there is the slightest reason to believe either of those things.

Plus brexit plus trump.

Trump came to power on a promise to impose tariffs. Free trade is one of those big scawy policies that ruthlessly exploits the workers.

That's what b) On your list actually looks like
08:29am 10/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
976 posts
get everyone on the same page


That doesn't sound very democratic. Maybe 50% of us don't give a razooo about the 1%.

Who needs money anyway, when we have peace and love man? Flower power man. Check your spirit god man. Peace and love man.

In the commune, the 1% can't get us. So how will we run this commune? I'd like the best pillow. Do we need to make a schedule so that we can have the best pillow equally? Hey can I lay here while you pick berries man? I'm feeling lazy today man. You can have my pillow turn if you pick my berries. Peace and love man! Wake me up when you get them.
02:43pm 10/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26356 posts
You're pretty f*****g dumb dude.

edit: I kind of liked it when you told those obviously made up anecdotes that were really lame. I know calling you out on it has made you a bit shy hence they've stopped but do you reckon you could start doing it again? I kind of miss them and I was going to see what happens if I pretend they're real and humour you about them for a while. Might be able to cultivate something really special.
07:11pm 10/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
977 posts
Has my logic caused you to have another fuse blow?

If you had a point you would make it, rather than simply 'that's dumb'.

https://i.imgur.com/pt4nFPC.jpg
09:15pm 10/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24045 posts
I guess the first step is to get everyone on the same page and acknowledge that a) wealth concentration is in fact a big problem and b) its the policies and laws we've had to date that have lead to this point. Are we prepared to do that yet?


So is the goal complete wealth equality?

What extent of wealth accumulation is permitted?

Is the solution for government to confiscate excessive wealth?

Keeping in mind most vast fortunes are tied up in shareholdings of productive companies should these shareholdings be confiscated by government and nationalised?
05:53pm 11/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7844 posts
Let's all jerk off to Atlas Shrugged
06:03pm 11/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3137 posts
Let's all jerk off to Atlas Shrugged


it's going to be amazing when trog says this about that post.

let's build a strawman and set fire to it and huddle around its warmth instead of talking about reality
06:46pm 11/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39551 posts
So is the goal complete wealth equality?
no
What extent of wealth accumulation is permitted?
some
Is the solution for government to confiscate excessive wealth?
maybe!

you're covering a lot of ground with these questions; I'll have a bit more of a think about which one I reckon is the most interesting and reply in more depth once I've finished work
07:19pm 11/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
978 posts
This is better than arguing about the orange man. I look forward to reading your thoughts on these.

I think my reset theory (#2) deserved more response, and it involves revolution. How can you go past a good old revolution?
08:36pm 11/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
590 posts
08:52am 12/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5764 posts
^Retarded video. "We all live better than Louis XIV"
Try putting that to the billion people living on less than $1 a day.
11:37am 12/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39553 posts
it is the difference between acceleration and linear increase
11:52am 12/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
591 posts
^Retarded video. "We all live better than Louis XIV"
Try putting that to the billion people living on less than $1 a day.


Do you have any arguments against the stats and arguments presented in the video or do you just want to focus on the anecdote?
12:20pm 12/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3138 posts
^Retarded video. "We all live better than Louis XIV"
Try putting that to the billion people living on less than $1 a day.


Don't anyone tell him it was double that 30 years ago.

Maybe you can buy them a frozen 711 meal Champ.




it is the difference between acceleration and linear increase


What does that even mean?
12:27pm 12/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
979 posts
it is the difference between acceleration and linear increase


I think he left out the word 'exponential' or 'diminishing' before 'acceleration', or meant 'velocity' instead of linear to use sarcastic_edge powers. I'm not the best one to ask, I didn't do physics, and am apparently dumb.

Are you not dazzled by the poetic brilliance of red leader 1?

I came to read more about Trog's No, Some, and Maybe theory.

I kind of liked it when you told those obviously made up anecdotes that were really lame. I know calling you out on it has made you a bit shy hence they've stopped but do you reckon you could start doing it again? I kind of miss them and I was going to see what happens if I pretend they're real and humour you about them for a while. Might be able to cultivate something really special.


hmm I'll have to think of another one that is applicable. What was the theme? Oh yah public school teachers pushing their agenda on young children, breaking school policy, getting busted. Was that it? You believe it's all bulls***... or like to act like it to see me rant more about it.

What was the life that I portray bit again? I still can't work that one out. Is it that I made sacrifices through tough choices to get ahead of where I could have been, and find I have reduced tolerance for people who could have tried harder instead of blaming others for their failures, when often they made the easy lazy choices? Was that it?

I think we have done enough of that. Why don't you answer some of the many questions that you duck and weave out of.

Let me guess your response...

omg u dumb
10:02pm 12/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39555 posts
Do you have any arguments against the stats and arguments presented in the video or do you just want to focus on the anecdote?
I only flicked through it (video is the worst way to present information ever) but it just seems like a bit of a strawman (in this context). Noone disagrees that the quality of life has improved across the world, more or less globally. Everyone wants to take credit for this (edit: /including/ socialists; I mean every group of people with a political outlook) and that video just looks like the usual "capitalism is the silver bullet for EVERYTHING and is totally flawless" stuff from free market extremists, but it doesn't address the issue of wealth concentration at all - which is what we're talking about (or so I thought).

Maybe you're making a different point in which case I apologise for being so obtuse that I missed it completely. Noone is saying capitalism doesn't have benefits. Just that the sort of unbridled, unrestricted capitalism that we (well, mostly the US) has been practising for the last couple decades is all gonna end in tears.
10:38pm 12/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3139 posts
but it just seems like a bit of a strawman
that just looks like the usual "capitalism is the silver bullet for EVERYTHING and is totally flawless"


LOL

The video discusses the concrete benefits free market capitalism has unarguably delivered on poverty. The point of the video which seems so obvious that to miss it seems dishonest, is that 1 the people complaining about wealth concentration are typically massive beneficiaries of it (for example everyone posting on this forum is without exception in the top 1% of wealth globally) and 2 this accumulation of wealth is more evenly spread among all humans than at anytime time in human history.

The second point is an indisputable fact. If don't believe just go and look at the poverty figures. They invariably get better as more counties join the WTO.

Capitalism's effect on poverty is not up for valid debate.

The current hobby horse of "wealth concentration" or wealth inequality being some kind of evil has shown very little in the way of actual negatives.

Comparing today to the late 1800 is usually a bad argument.

Not a single person here has pointed out what the actual negatives of this so called out of control wealth concentration are.

For example

. Just that the sort of unbridled, unrestricted capitalism that we (well, mostly the US) has been practising for the last couple decades is all gonna end in tears.


Why, why is it going to end in tears. The US was if anything characterised by more extreme unbridled capitalism for most of its history, which happened to coincide with it becoming the world's only super power.

On the other hand, some countries tried eliminating wealth inequality in the 20th century. Didn't go so great.
06:36am 13/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26357 posts
whoa s***, it's lolbertarian extraordinaire dazedandconfused back in the house! Still a climate change denier dazed or have you managed to grow up a little?
06:44am 13/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
592 posts
whoa s***, it's lolbertarian extraordinaire dazedandconfused back in the house! Still a climate change denier dazed or have you managed to grow up a little?


I still address what people post, fpot. It seems clear from this that you still have the worldview of a 19 year old gender studies student with the debating ability to match.
08:27am 13/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5765 posts
Are you actually a climate change denier? I guess it does match up with the pro Capitalism video.
Capitalism is absolutely horrid at tackling issues like climate change, which will ultimately (as trog put it) end in tears. Try to bring this up with anyone like that moron PP, and they'll just rake it under the carpet as a non issue.

If you're all about statistics then surely you can't rationally be a climate change denier, nor see it as a non issue.
11:03am 13/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3140 posts
It's enjoyable to know vash blocks views he can't understand/makes him cry.

And fpot.

Leftwing thinking in a nutshell.

Is there anything I've said or called either of them they don't routinely say to others? See Exhibit A set out directly above.

Pretty funny/totally predictable they can't handle the mirror being put in front of them.
11:11am 13/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
593 posts
Define climate change denier.
11:58am 13/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
980 posts
Are we all in the top global 1%? That's a relief. I've made some sacrfices and choices to get here, and I expect we all have. Well done all ! We are not as unlike as I imagined.

So fpot, you don't actually weave baskets? I'm guessing you and Vash and Trog are all part of the capitalist machine that is providing us this quality of life.

I feel like we made a break-through. We are all like brothers.

Who are these haters who hate the top 1%? Are we profiting off the haters or are they a cost?

... hang on. Why do we want to help the haters? It's this benevolent, be like Jesus stuff eh? I can respect that. If we got the 1% I don't mind helping.

I could house a couple. They will need to work though, hard.. and in return I will provide them food shelter and love. They will have a much better life, and when they are ready, one day, I will write them a wonderful reference and they will be free to share their learned skills withing our community. If we all took on maybe 3 or 4 it could solve a great deal of issues in the world.
12:53pm 13/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5766 posts
^your posts are entertaining. Has a crazy Alex Jones tone to it
02:26pm 13/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24046 posts
I came to read more about Trog's No, Some, and Maybe theory.


Wealth concentration-obsessed types rarely get beyond that point.

but it doesn't address the issue of wealth concentration at all - which is what we're talking about (or so I thought).


the point of the video (and capitalism as a philosophy) is that under capitalism everyone's life gets exponentially better than the generations before them, all without coercion and by helping others with the self-interested motive of profit. this self-organising system is far more efficienct than a fleet of bureaucrats could ever hope to be. an essential feature of that system is property rights and rule of law. some people accumulate property and others don't. wealth inequality is painted as a bad thing, but it is the essence of a coercion-free system.

wealth concentration-obsessed types in turn argue for reallocation of wealth by taxation while trying to insist that property rights will remain in tact (it's just the tip[ ;) ). it's a pathetic regressive argument, yet its romantic appeal lasts as long as socialism does. (a few years, before it descends into authoritarian misery.) don't worry your local greens voters will continue to insist it's possible.
06:58pm 13/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
981 posts
Lets make some placards and get down out the front of the Optus buildings. It's time to start the revolution.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaoKw2eU8AA8Y8B.jpg
07:29pm 13/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39557 posts
whoa how grumpy is infi for a friday night!
Wealth concentration-obsessed types rarely get beyond that point.
yeh it's not like there's any precedent of me writing reams and reams of text in response and then having them ignored completely. I'll respond when I have the time and inclination but thanks for declaring victory in advance because I've been a little busy! do you think I just flipped a coin to come up with those answers? how rude of you to assume so
the point of the video (and capitalism as a philosophy) is that under capitalism everyone's life gets exponentially better than the generations before them, all without coercion and by helping others with the self-interested motive of profit
yeh I guess, kinda, but more like as usual it's just free market extremism loosely disguised as rational thought because it has some numbers with a % sign after it so it must be science right

but I think it just ignores the fact that most of those benefits came about because of a decades-long history of massive social programs that were funded largely by higher taxes and precisely the sort of 'reallocation of wealth' that people are fighting against today. Like, where did unions come from?! Why do we even HAVE roads?!#

the only question that matters to me is whether or not humanity will be better off with controls around how much wealth someone can accumulate. to me the answer is a staggeringly obvious no-brainer yes. I get the libertarian/free market perspective that why shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever they want and the government should f*** right off. but what I don't get is how it's not clear to these people that when this situation arises they just use their wealth to distort markets, and often laws, and often for their own benefit - that is bad for everyone
10:16pm 13/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3141 posts
yeh it's not like there's any precedent of me writing reams and reams of text in response and then having them ignored completely.


There is a permalink for all 10000 posts and the three threads before this one. you just link to the monster dunk you had little guy.

. Like, where did unions come from?! Why do we even HAVE roads?!#


Hey did you know there were roads in n slave holding Rome?

Guess roads need slaves.

but what I don't get is how it's not clear to these people that when this situation arises they just use their wealth to distort markets, and often laws, and often for their own benefit - that is bad for everyone


Any time as above youd like to provide examples don't feel shy.
10:29pm 13/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5767 posts
Heh there's always a last post reply to Trog by ole boy PP. its always cute him trying to get attention from him after all this time. The guy doesn't have an ickle of self reflection.
Maybe one day he'll get it.

So dazed, the typical definition of a climate change denier, and let me google that for you:

It involves denial, dismissal, unwarranted doubt or contrarian views contradicting the scientific opinion on climate change, including the extent to which it is caused by humans, its impacts on nature and human society, or the potential of adaptation to global warming by human actions


Where do you fit?
10:51pm 13/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3142 posts
Heh there's always a last post reply to Trog by ole boy PP. its always cute him trying to get attention from him after all this time. The guy doesn't have an ickle of self reflection.
Maybe one day he'll get it.


Maybe one day you will.

Don't forget the left definitely doesn't have a self censorship problem.
11:09pm 13/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
982 posts
ABC headline:

Trump launches air strikes on Syria in
wake of chemical attack


Reads like the orange man can fly jet fighters for multiple nations at once. What a capable guy.

How would this lady handle this situation? Can she fly jet fighters for multiple nations at once?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9610412-3x2-940x627.jpg

Guardian Major headline:

Syria latest: Trump orders air strikes against Assad regime – live updates


Side story on front page in small font:

Full Report: US, UK and France launch attack on Assad regime


What ever sells advertising space I guess. It's important to aim our headlines at our largest market segments as it helps pay the bills. Unite with our hatred on the individual who caused all this.. the orange man.
11:43am 14/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2213 posts
MFW thinking about inequality.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Das3a2eV4AEXuQK.jpg
the point of the video (and capitalism as a philosophy) is that under capitalism everyone's life gets exponentially better than the generations before them, all without coercion and by helping others with the self-interested motive of profit


Are you renouncing your capitalist ways now that the younger generation is the first in something like 200 years that is worse off than the baby boomers?
03:57pm 14/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3143 posts
Are you renouncing your capitalist ways now that the younger generation is the first in something like 200 years that is worse off than the baby boomers?


According to who? Which measures actually support this?

Millennials enjoy unequivocally higher living standards than the baby boomers did growing up.

Beyond home ownership, and time will tell on that, which measures have gotten worse.
05:09pm 14/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2214 posts
05:57pm 14/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3144 posts
Yeah so those articles talk about home ownership. As I said time will tell.

They also speak about student debt.

It is a bizzare comparison to make. Millennials have more student debt but waaaay more of them go to uni. That is a sign of progress I would have thought not evidence they have it worse off.

But anyway, thanks for following up with no data. Glad to see you're well informed.
06:14pm 14/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5768 posts
07:22pm 14/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24047 posts
but I think it just ignores the fact that most of those benefits came about because of a decades-long history of massive social programs that were funded largely by higher taxes and precisely the sort of 'reallocation of wealth' that people are fighting against today. Like, where did unions come from?! Why do we even HAVE roads?!#


within the context of a free market society, with property rights and rule of law? taxes for building roads is not wealth distribution - it's basic infrastructure which keeps the economy growing. Unions are free privately organising groups, a great feature of a free market society and most certainly not effective in socialism - where they tend to become the cronies striping government companies of their wealth - see Venezuela where government-union employment has doubled just as oil output has halved.

none of the issues you raised address the issue of wealth inequality and once again you have evaded the essential question: should wealth be redistributed when "excessive"? do you believe in property rights or not?

Are you renouncing your capitalist ways now that the younger generation is the first in something like 200 years that is worse off than the baby boomers?


yeah i don't buy that for a second. prior generations did not have the entire information of the world in their phone. don't believe the hype.

Millennial sure know how to whinge better than earlier generations. "did you know my wifi was out for two hours this morning!? i had to drink actual milk today, because they were out of almond"

Trump will be very lucky if he does not trigger a full scale ground war here. As he wrote to his future self, there is literally nothing to gain from these strikes (unless he was interested in sucking up to the liberal democratic MSM establishment but why the f*** would he want to do that?). Israel is chomping at the bit to enter Syria and perhaps even spill on into Iran. Russia would love a proper reason to launch a full conventional war. War would suit both Iran and Russia who are currently being hurt by sanctions badly so it would be a welcome distraction from the failures of their governments.

I don't know if Trump thinks this will distract from Mueller.... (maybe he is planning to fire Mueller any day now, it would be a good distraction). The Deep State is very impressed with themselves that 2 weeks after Trump announces he is leaving Syria they have managed to suck him right back in. I don't believe any of the news reports any more, it is all propaganda and counter-propaganda. War is waged with weapons and then with dis-information too.

With a $1trillion deficit and $22tr public debt America doesn't need another war.
09:42pm 14/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26358 posts
yeah i don't buy that for a second. prior generations did not have the entire information of the world in their phone.
I can't think of any recent events that may indicate this is actually a bad thing but I'll be sure to keep an ear out. And you're the living embodiment of how such readily available 'information' can be used to completely f*** someone's mind in a way that, for instance, will get them believing in farcical deep state conspiracies drawing the USA into wars because they are so moustache twistingly evil muhahahaha! Or it could be that a witless trojan horse currently bumbling his way through day to day life is POTUS and the chickens are finally coming home to roost.
10:04pm 14/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3145 posts
And you're the living embodiment of how such readily available 'information' can be used to completely f*** someone's mind in a way that,


It really is very entertaining to watch someone who routinely displays profound ignorance on issues they claim to care about hector someone about how information has f***ed someone else's mind.
10:21pm 14/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39560 posts
none of the issues you raised address the issue of wealth inequality and once again you have evaded the essential question: should wealth be redistributed when "excessive"? do you believe in property rights or not?
Well I think we need to define our terms because I don't know what you mean by "wealth redistribution" then. To me it's a [scare] term that is used to describe a vague line in the sand about how much the government taxes people and what it gets spent on. It is NOT confiscating wealth from those who have earned it under an existing set of rules, although (obviously, IMO) things can be done to change how that wealth is taxed in future (e.g., consumption taxes).

We already tax people so "wealth" is already "redistributed". Saying taxes for building roads is different because it's "basic infrastructure" is just hand-waving prevarication that not only tries to change the conversation ("oh, well, SOME taxes are obviously OK because they go to things I need/like, but literally everything else is terrible, therefore, it's wealth redistribution, which as you can tell from the name, is bad" ). But it neglects the fact that "basic infrastructure" is a) highly subjective depending on a huge variety of factors (e.g., healthcare is basic infrastructure for most of the western world) and b) one of the bloody things pretty much everyone wants the government to spend more on in the first place (even/especially in the USA!@#).

To me this conversation is about whether or not we want to have what is basically a new aristocratic class that is not only living in a totally different world to the rest of us, but is capable of establishing whatever systems and structures they want through their giant staggering wealth to ensure both their . I see no advantage to having someone that has $10b instead of $1b (or even $100m) other than to satisfy some notions of liberty and individualism that neglect the fact that the reason anyone is able to do these things is because we're lucky enough to live in a society that was built and funded cooperatively.
02:20pm 15/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
983 posts
To me this conversation is about whether or not we want to have what is basically a new aristocratic class that is not only living in a totally different world to the rest of us, but is capable of establishing whatever systems and structures they want through their giant staggering wealth to ensure both their .


Don't we already have this? and the gap is growing, and will naturally continue to grow, but the mean shifts upward. The safety nets for the lower end are improving, however I can understand that some might prefer to believe otherwise, based on anomalies and information provided by organisations who capitalise from pedalling the opposite and pedalling that the world is becoming a worse place to live. Quality of life is improving.

If federal funding was allocated even closer to fair, a traffic jam in Sydney would be similar to that in Alice Springs. I think we do a pretty good job of spreading things around to help balance things out.
02:45pm 15/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3146 posts
There is just no danger whatsoever of trog articulating an actual argument is there. Just flop your platitudes on the table.

But it neglects the fact that "basic infrastructure" is a) highly subjective depending on a huge variety of factors


There is actually really clear conditions about when government intervention is likely to be needed. It almost always revolves clearly defined market failures. Which is something which is hard to exclude the Benefit of but is valuable never the less.

Defence being the classic example.

But trog apparently can't tell the difference between that and a cap on personal wealth.

For example trog can't see a benefit for someone having $100,000,000. And is afraid of

To me this conversation is about whether or not we want to have what is basically a new aristocratic class that is not only living in a totally different world to the rest of us, but is capable of establishing whatever systems and structures they want through their giant staggering wealth to ensure both their .


Maybe turn off john oliver trog. He is a comedian, not a policy expert.
05:02pm 15/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2215 posts
F*** you are useless PP you present no new arguments other than the status quo is fine.
09:07pm 15/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3147 posts
F*** you are useless PP you present no new arguments other than the status quo is fine.


Well it doesn't hurt that the facts are on my side and you Trog vash and fpot don't present new arguments, just the same tired, tried and failed policies socialists have been spouting for over a hundred years.

The reason it makes you upset is that when I point out things are almost invariably the way they are for a reason you never have a response. Most of the issues facing governance today are fiendishly complicated, an given policy will involve extremely difficult choices, and change will almost certainly come with unintended consequences. You have never given any serious consideration of these issues in any of your posts, though I'll give you that your posts are less platitudinous drivel than vash for example. But I don't think it's possible to set that bar much lower.

Take picketty. When asked the basic question is this inequality actually damaging people's wellbeing, I get a dodge about him not being a philosopher. What a cop out. The literal point of economics is to study how best to maximize the delivery of goods and services to the most people.

Or trogs example, in a staggering coincidence the amount of wealth we need to be worried about and stop people getting isn't his.
06:50am 16/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39561 posts
With a $1trillion deficit and $22tr public debt America doesn't need another war.
Speaking of the USs ludicrous debt and deficit, I thought this was interesting: Who Holds the Most US Government Debt. Foreign governments (i.e., China) hold way less US debt than I would have guessed.
09:12am 16/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
594 posts
Are you renouncing your capitalist ways now that the younger generation is the first in something like 200 years that is worse off than the baby boomers?


The boomer generation saw an exponential increase in welfare spending (socialist). So when the Millenial generation and beyond have it worse it's because socialist policies are debt black holes.


So dazed, the typical definition of a climate change denier, and let me google that for you:

It involves denial, dismissal, unwarranted doubt or contrarian views contradicting the scientific opinion on climate change, including the extent to which it is caused by humans, its impacts on nature and human society, or the potential of adaptation to global warming by human actions


Where do you fit?


Well, in that case, that's a stupid definition. How can you be labeled a denier when there are contradicting opinions WITHIN the science community? Oh, that's right. The Left has their approved scientific opinion, much like they do on race, gender and economics, and anything outside of that is "deinal".
09:42am 16/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26359 posts
It's not the definition that's stupid, it's the dolts who don't understand how scientific consensus works.

We're actually well past well past climate change debate here. Maybe go soak in your own filth for a bit longer and you may understand how scientific consensus works and be ready to join in. I'm really looking forward to your fascinating insights like 'everything bad is socialism' and 'if it isn't perfect yet it's because not enough capitalism' and 'bootstraps'. You're like a time capsuled 2012 lolbertarian. Kind of a rare breed these days.
01:20pm 16/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
595 posts
It's not the definition that's stupid, it's the dolts who don't understand how scientific consensus works.

We're actually well past well past climate change debate here. Maybe go soak in your own filth for a bit longer and you may understand how scientific consensus works and be ready to join in. I'm really looking forward to your fascinating insights like 'everything bad is socialism' and 'if it isn't perfect yet it's because not enough capitalism' and 'bootstraps'. You're like a time capsuled 2012 lolbertarian. Kind of a rare breed these days.


Who bullied you as a child fpot that you have such an utter disdain for basic courteous interaction? Take it to a counsellor instead of laying it here.

"Scientific consensus" has worked how it has always worked throughout history, fpot, i.e it's not a valid argument. It never has been and never will be. It's the argument from authority fallacy.
01:36pm 16/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
574 posts
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01:45pm 16/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5769 posts
The Left has their approved scientific opinion, much like they do on race, gender and economics, and anything outside of that is "deinal"..


And there it is. Any further time spent replying is a waste of time.
02:28pm 16/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
132 posts
This post has been removed.
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02:39pm 16/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
984 posts
fpot, why do you get so angry? You know we love you, we all love you. Just like you love us. It's the way Jesus wants us to be. Shall I gets my alts to pray for you?
06:08pm 16/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39562 posts
"Scientific consensus" has worked how it has always worked throughout history, fpot, i.e it's not a valid argument. It never has been and never will be. It's the argument from authority fallacy.
it is almost the exact opposite:
It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.
edit: the irony of me appealing to the authority of logical fallacies is not lost on me
07:15pm 16/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7845 posts
Mr Golden Balls and the absolute madness of Australia's Ponzi immigration scheme


http://captiongenerator.com/976522/Turnbull-capitulates
08:00pm 16/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3148 posts
it is almost the exact opposite:


Yeah maybe. I don't think that passage says what you think it says.
09:41pm 16/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
597 posts
However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.


So it's not at all almost the exact opposite. Besides, I'm not the one making the claim that the "consensus" is the end of the argument. The burden of proof is on the claimant and the argument from authority is not an argument.
08:36am 17/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26363 posts
Kind of sick of hearing you being wrong about climate change and how scientific consensus works. Why don't you tell us your thoughts on Donald Trump and the deep state conspiracy attempting to undermine him instead?
12:54pm 17/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3149 posts
Hey dazed why don't you ask fpot to explain Russian collusion.

Personally I think a three country strike on Russian assets in Syria was exactly what Putin was trying to achieve by "electing" Trump.
01:12pm 17/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39563 posts
So it's not at all almost the exact opposite.
Not sure you read that quote right; it's the difference between a consensus and cherry picking "the opinion of a person or institution". Here is another definition that explains it better than I probably can.
Besides, I'm not the one making the claim that the "consensus" is the end of the argument.
The "argument" never ends though; science is a process. But there is a practical point at which you can say "there's no point in arguing about this any more because the currently available evidence, data and analysis is comprehensive enough to have formed a theory". That's pretty much where we are now.
The burden of proof is on the claimant and the argument from authority is not an argument.
yes that is why scientists have spent the last couple decades gathering data and analysing it and why the vast vast majority of them agree that something is going on here. their proof is the megatons of papers that have been published on the topic.

if you don't believe the specifics on scientific grounds then it's either that you disbelieve their data or you think their analysis is wrong. You've either done the work yourself and disagree based on one of these two areas - or you're deferring to an authority that does. I don't really have the energy to debate this topic again but I'd be interested in knowing why you think what you think, just out of morbid curiosity.
03:32pm 17/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3150 posts
It involves denial, dismissal, unwarranted doubt or contrarian views contradicting the scientific opinion on climate change, including the extent to which it is caused by humans, its impacts on nature and human society, or the potential of adaptation to global warming by human actions
. But there is a practical point at which you can say "there's no point in arguing about this any more because the currently available evidence, data and analysis is comprehensive enough to have formed a theory". That's pretty much where we are now.


Seems doubtful to me that you could say there is consensus beyond "human activity releasing certain chemicals into the atmosphere is strongly correlated with a general trend of rising temperatures measured globally supporting a causal inference"

Vash quote includes a lot more than though.

And let's not pretend he actually believes that. It's a safe bet he actually means the entire greens policy suite is supported by the aforementioned unassailable consensus.

So actually, when you talk about deferring to authority it is very easy to slip into the authority fallacy. It is exactly how vash is using it.
06:10pm 17/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
598 posts
Kind of sick of hearing you being wrong about climate change and how scientific consensus works. Why don't you tell us your thoughts on Donald Trump and the deep state conspiracy attempting to undermine him instead?


Your arguments are never more nuanced, complex or thought-out than "you're wrong" so I'll pass.

So actually, when you talk about deferring to authority it is very easy to slip into the authority fallacy. It is exactly how vash is using it.


This is what I was saying. I'm not getting into the climate change debate ever again, except for pointing out the broken logic of people supporting the golden idol of "scientific consensus".
08:50am 18/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39564 posts
I'm not getting into the climate change debate ever again
yeh I'm with you on that
except for pointing out the broken logic of people supporting the golden idol of "scientific consensus".
... as long as you remember almost literally everything else in your life around you that keeps you alive, ensures you're productive, allows you to type words on a magic box and have them transmitted around the world in a tiny amount of time and appearing on everyone's screen... all that stuff is done because of scientific consensus. it is not perfect, but it improves over time with new evidence and new data, and it's the best thing we have to inform us about the universe around us so that we can make informed decisions
09:01am 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3151 posts
as long as you remember almost literally everything else in your life around you that keeps you alive, ensures you're productive, allows you to type words on a magic box and have them transmitted around the world in a tiny amount of time and appearing on everyone's screen... all that stuff is done because of scientific consensus. it is not perfect, but it improves over time with new evidence and new data, and it's the best thing we have to inform us about the universe around us so that we can make informed decisions


Gee I wonder if trog realises how big a red herring this is.

There is a massive difference between understanding science's role in developing technology, and claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.
10:52am 18/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
917 posts
claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.
Not trolling but what do you even mean? I can't understand your point.
05:40pm 18/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
985 posts
Apparently there is scientific consensus that is loosely related so the theory is still open for debate.

I think my reset option #2 was simpler. What did you think of option 2?

Do you agree the cycle would just start again, because that's what humans and other animals and even plants tend to do?
05:53pm 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3152 posts
Not trolling but what do you even mean? I can't understand your point.


I don't feel it is especially complicated.

The scientific consensus on climate change is on a fairly narrow set of facts. Such as some human activity is a cause of climate change. So unless you're stating I believe human activity is a cause of climate change, if you cite the scientific consensus on climate change, you're performing a combination of a red herring and an appeal to authority. Specifically a fallacious appeal to authority.

Take an opinion, for example we should end coal fired power generation.

The global scientific consensus does not extend to that opinion. Ar5 of the IPCC explicitly makes a point of not endorsing specific policies because they quote "involve value judgements of a non scientific nature".

It follows that literally any political position almost certainly cannot appeal to the scientific consensus on climate change to support its argument, except for the utterly banal point that climate change is real.

Or to make a less controversial example, there is a scientific consensus that light affects certain chemicals in ways that cause us to experience colour which in turn allows for the creation of paint. You explain to me how that fact justifies painting a cat and not a dog.

or to put it in a suitably condescending c*** phrasing. I hate that you paint cats and not dogs, I hope you realise the scientific consensus on paint enables you to paint at all.
08:01pm 18/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2216 posts
Gee I wonder if trog realises how big a red herring this is.

There is a massive difference between understanding science's role in developing technology, and claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.


Is there a massive difference between coal fired power plants contributing to climate change and painting cats or dogs?
10:55pm 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3153 posts
That feeling when you mistake a red herring because you committed a straw man.

I don't think you understand what a scientific consensus is. That's ok. But I hope you realise that a scientific consensus allows you to write dreary logical fallacies on the internet.

It makes modern life possible don't you know.

Try replacing cats and dogs with banning gas powerplants or banning coal powerplants.
07:02am 19/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39566 posts
seems like a lot of effort and expense when a single page with "why bother" written in crayon would do the job
10:55am 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3154 posts
seems like a lot of effort and expense when a single page with "why bother" written in crayon would do the job


It funny that you block people who talk to you exactly as you talk to others.

I don't think you're giving enough respect to the scientific consensus on crayons here.
11:08am 19/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
918 posts

I don't feel it is especially complicated.
The scientific consensus on climate change is on a fairly narrow set of facts. Such as some human activity is a cause of climate change. So unless you're stating I believe human activity is a cause of climate change, if you cite the scientific consensus on climate change, you're performing a combination of a red herring and an appeal to authority. Specifically a fallacious appeal to authority.

Just gonna concentrate on this first paragraph because the rest doesn't really add anything. This is a really dumb argument to put forward. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, the current scientific consensus on climate change is based on few facts and does not take into account the whole picture... But you still think they're wrong.

You are arguing against the collective knowledge of several thousand people who have spent the majority of their adult life studying the climate. If you had 1001 plumbers telling you "don't dig there, it's a bad idea" yet you still think they're wrong? They haven't investigating ever facet of the problem, for what reason? If they could they would.

What a dumb argument.
11:57am 19/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24049 posts
You are arguing against the collective knowledge of several thousand people who have spent the majority of their adult life studying the climate. If you had 1001 plumbers telling you "don't dig there, it's a bad idea" yet you still think they're wrong? They haven't investigating ever facet of the problem, for what reason? If they could they would.


in global macro economics they call this "everyone being on one side of the boat". it's a classic opportunity to get squeezed, and typically the person who holds the other view makes a fortune because instead of being 99% right forecasters are generally less than 50% right. risk management means to have appropriately sized risks in either camp, and not betting the house (by say disabling your economic growth) on a strongly held view.
12:09pm 19/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26364 posts
Human caused climate change is a certainty. Not a near certainty, not a strong possibility, a certainty. Let's pretend for a moment though that it was a 50/50 proposition. Do you think taking measures to prevent it would be a worthy step despite the disruption to economic growth compared to pretending it doesn't exist and the catastrophe that would (will) entail?
12:21pm 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3155 posts

Just gonna concentrate on this first paragraph because the rest doesn't really add anything. This is a really dumb argument to put forward. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, the current scientific consensus on climate change is based on few facts and does not take into account the whole picture... But you still think they're wrong.


I don't think it's possible for you to have misunderstood more profoundly.

The consensus is about certain facts in the natural world.

It does not tell you what you should do.

The IPCC explicitly make this statement.

The fact that coal powerplants contribute to climate change does not without more justify turning them all off. This is because there are a range of other considerations and options which the climate science is silent on.

Acknowledgeing these other important factors absolutely does not run against the scientific consensus on climate change. It is the opinion of The scientific community which forms the IPCC. They freely acknowledge other factors may trump their input. Nothing about that says climate science is wrong.

I am directly quoting from their report my emphasis

Natural, technical, and social sciences can provide essential information and evidence needed for decisions on what constitutes "dangerous anthropogenic interference" with the climate system. At the same time, such decisions are value judgments determined through socio-political processes, taking into account considerations such as development, equity, and sustainability, as well as uncertainties and risk. Scientific evidence helps to reduce uncertainty and increase knowledge, and can serve as an input for considering precautionary measures.1 Decisions are based on risk assessment, and lead to risk management choices by decision makers, about actions and policies


I don't know how to make it clearer to you.

The scientific consensus doesn't without a broad range of other considerations justify a particular policy. The peak body representing climate scientists is very clear on this point.

So call it a dumb argument if you want. It's the argument made by the 1000 plumbers you're talking about.
12:31pm 19/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24050 posts
appropriately sized measures, yes. a carbon tax, reducing the standard of living and funding larger bureaucracy, is not an appropriately sized measure actively . encouraging energy efficiency and allowing the natural evolution of alternative energy sources is.

i think it is far more important for major emitters to make significant reductions, than to expect minnows to start first. it is technological innovation which will pave the way for less energy usage and investment which delivers financial returns.
12:36pm 19/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
919 posts

Ahaha the IPCC is a bureaucratic s***hole on the same level as the WHO and UN. It is a juggernaut whose movements and results are more akin to a sloth on a highway. Continuing this analogy, if IPCC is a sloth, global warming is a jaguar. We are so f***ed.

FYI that quote is from a report 11 years ago, which itself is quoting a 2001 report.

You are also ignoring a very important note, scientists have shifted from "we can stop climate change" to "we're f***ed, how do we manage the situation?". This is evident all the way back nearly 20 years ago. Everytime you claim I am appealing to authority, you quote IPCC.... nice appeal to authority. Also quoting a tiny bit of a IPCC summary of another IPCC report is itself a red herring. Let's go see what the IPCC says...


The reason for incorporating other non-scientific factors:

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/vol4/index.php?idp=7

The climate change issue is part of the larger challenge of sustainable development. As a result, climate policies can be more effective when consistently embedded within broader strategies designed to make national and regional development paths more sustainable. This occurs because the impact of climate variability and change, climate policy responses, and associated socio-economic development will affect the ability of countries to achieve sustainable development goals. Conversely, the pursuit of those goals will in turn affect the opportunities for, and success of, climate policies. In particular, the socio-economic and technological characteristics of different development paths will strongly affect emissions, the rate and magnitude of climate change, climate change impacts, the capability to adapt, and the capacity to mitigate.


The scientific consensus is not "loosely related", it directly drives the actions required to deviate from the path of destruction. Other factors are incorporated into decision making to increase the effect of the outcome.

info: f*** you for putting profits first.
01:49pm 19/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26365 posts
encouraging energy efficiency and allowing the natural evolution of alternative energy sources is.
This sounds suspiciously like do nothing and hope everything turns out fine to me, which in the context of the 50/50 scenario I gave you is not so bad I guess.

The reality is that climate change is real, it's too late to stop it and now the only goal is to minimise the damage it causes - do you still think the do nothing and hope approach is still appropriate?
02:11pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
986 posts
I keep telling you guys #2, the reset option is the way.

We can have a revolution with placards and everything. Cumon, lets do it this Saturday at about lunch time.

Maybe we could discuss option #3 Candle vigil, with thoughts and prayers for our dieing planet.

We could link arms and sing kum-by-yah and have a peaceful protest of love. Maybe we do that at night, cause the candles look better in the dark.

#2 will be the most fun.

https://mdrtresourcezone.blob.core.windows.net/web-site/image/_asset/e6385eacfc1c42e7aea3a77d00e72b82/reset button.jpg
04:18pm 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3156 posts
In the paragraph directly above the one you quote. My emphasis.

The basis for determining what constitutes "dangerous anthropogenic interference" will vary among regions -- depending both on the local nature and consequences of climate change impacts, and also on the adaptive capacity available to cope with climate change -- and depends upon mitigative capacity, since the magnitude and the rate of change are both important. There is no universally applicable best set of policies; rather, it is important to consider both the robustness of different policy measures against a range of possible future worlds, and the degree to which such climate-specific policies can be integrated with broader sustainable development policies.


They repeatedly state concerns beyond climate change mitigation can and should be incorporated into policy. You say it yourself when you talk about making them effective. If you destroy people's standard of living in the process you will not get the political will necessary to make a change. I really don't understand how you don't understand this.

FYI that quote is from a report 11 years ago, which itself is quoting a 2001 report.


The issue of policy matters beyond climate change is in the 2014 report. Its like there is no real doubt among the experts on this point.

This is evident all the way back nearly 20 years ago. Everytime you claim I am appealing to authority, you quote IPCC.... nice appeal to authority. Also quoting a tiny bit of a IPCC summary of another IPCC report is itself a red herring. Let's go see what the IPCC says...


See this is you misunderstanding the point profoundly. But it's pretty funny to be chastised about climate science for agreeing with what the peak body on climate science says about how to develop policy.

If you can provide a better source for a synthesis of the state of the research I'm all ears.

The authority fallacy happens when you claim the scientific consensus supports your opinion when it doesn't. Given what they state they have consensus on the range of policies that could unequivocally supported by the consensus is correspondingly narrow.
05:34pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2217 posts
I keep telling you guys #2, the reset option is the way.

We can have a revolution with placards and everything. Cumon, lets do it this Saturday at about lunch time.

Maybe we could discuss option #3 Candle vigil, with thoughts and prayers for our dieing planet.

We could link arms and sing kum-by-yah and have a peaceful protest of love. Maybe we do that at night, cause the candles look better in the dark.

#2 will be the most fun.


The reset option happened after the world wars, it's discussed in the Pickety book i mentioned earlier. There was less inequality after war. I don't think he had data for the french revolution.

Given that war and revolution would be the very last options on the table don't you think wealth taxes would be the most sensible way forward?
09:46pm 19/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39567 posts
This sounds suspiciously like do nothing and hope everything turns out fine to me, which in the context of the 50/50 scenario I gave you is not so bad I guess.

The reality is that climate change is real, it's too late to stop it and now the only goal is to minimise the damage it causes - do you still think the do nothing and hope approach is still appropriate?
the important thing is to make sure that under no circumstances we tax anyone no matter how badly they're taking advantage of externalities to be profitable at the expense of everyone else
11:13pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
987 posts
don't you think wealth taxes would be the most sensible way forward?


I think if super rich people started pumping out more children and educating them, while the super poor stopped breeding completely, things would start getting more sensible.

The savings would provide such an abundance of wealth that even the poorest would have a quantum leap in living standards. The super rich could hire the super poor as help around the house. The super rich could house and feed all the poor. You would need a good way to deal with the help if they were lazy though. Maybe military for a couple years would help motivate them?

Also, "#2 Reset" is inevitable. One day a meteor will wipe us out, and then the cycle will start again.
08:10pm 20/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5770 posts
Nmag you need to be more subtle with the trolling. Learn from PP.
08:38pm 20/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26367 posts
Yeah paraphrasing Russian Twitter bots worked very well for PP maybe you should give that a crack.
08:59pm 20/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3157 posts
Yeah paraphrasing Russian Twitter bots worked very well for PP maybe you should give that a crack.


Glorious. Everything that doesn't fit into my uninformed world view (which is slightly less mature than a 13 year old's) is "Russian bots".

Makes sense he identifies high school student political thought.
09:34pm 20/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
988 posts
Many social liberal ideals are very suitable for young single lifestyle, but become a lot less relatable after people get into their 30s, get married, and have kids - now the thought of "family values" or "protecting the children" is a lot more relevant. Having children is a strong predictor of more right-wing social views.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-generally-as-citizens-become-more-right-wing-as-we-grow-older

As I could explain it, eventually the penny drops that the people who are committing crimes that put you and your family at risk are most likely scum that are being funded through welfare by their victims. Also as you get wiser you realise there are people who suffer from "laziness" and the same people tend to want to blame others. You start to notice that losers are less likely to accept responsibility for their own poor state of affairs, more likely to blame or despise the successful, and are very quick at finding excuses and convincing each other than 'someone else is to blame'. You start to wonder if these people had put more effort into competitive team sport they might be better adjusted at understanding that achievement comes with effort and lazy players go on the bench, or do not get selected for the team.

So then you start to wonder.. why are we supporting losers so much? And you realise that if we did not, crime would go through the roof.
11:51am 21/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7846 posts
05:48pm 21/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39571 posts
never heard of that person but she sounds like a WILD CARD
10:00am 22/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7847 posts
Lol Scott Morrison said we didn't need a Banking Royal Commission.

11:26am 22/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2218 posts
05:24pm 22/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3158 posts
Is that really how you summarise that video?
05:38pm 22/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7848 posts
Kelly O'Liar

06:59pm 22/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2219 posts
Is that really how you summarise that video?

Yep i summarised it in 1 sentence because I am a big brain man. Please defend the video, instead of just posting some contrarian s***.
09:46pm 22/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3159 posts
If that "big brain" of yours reached Bill shorten was the cause of the delay based on Morrison's words in that video you may need to see a doctor cause it ain't grey matter taking up the space.

The question was should he apologize for questioning the need for a commission at all.

The answer to that is still no. Bill wanted the commission as payback for the union Commission, in the hope it would be equally embarrassing for the libs.

His comments about shorten are precise.

If Billy Boy was serious he should have able to put forward draft terms of reference.
07:40am 23/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24051 posts
I saw this and immediately thought of the Socialist nuts on QGL.

https://i.imgur.com/cFkiXnN.jpg
07:21pm 23/04/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13748 posts
none of those are real socialism - we've never tried the version of socialism I'm a proponent of
10:36am 24/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
989 posts

This website will provide insight into how to cope with infi's image regarding 'fictional country'.

https://circuitglobe.com/difference-between-short-circuit-and-overload.html


01:30pm 24/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
599 posts
none of those are real socialism - we've never tried the version of socialism I'm a proponent of


Yes that's because it is only possible in a fantasy universe.
04:19pm 24/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39574 posts
06:07pm 24/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26370 posts
Someone somewhere in a fantasy universe is describing our universe as a fantasy universe.
07:30pm 24/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3160 posts
speaking of fantasy universes

It's unbecoming to masturbate to your idea of a libertarian argument in public trog. Please keep your fantasies to yourself.
07:56pm 24/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24052 posts
speaking of fantasy universes


an edgy yet ignorant attempt to poke fun at actual libertarian philosophy. i had to bleach my eyes.

Someone somewhere in a fantasy universe is describing our universe as a fantasy universe.


meta, incomprehensible.
08:49pm 24/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39575 posts
the ironing is delicious
09:11pm 24/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2221 posts
Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?

China's ruling party says they're communist. So obviously they completely are. Checkmate capitalists.
09:50pm 24/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3161 posts
the ironing is delicious


for who.

Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?


Wow, that "big brain" of yours thought that was a point or something. I get how your summary managed to not capture a single thing Morrison said now. You also need to like talk with Vash. He seems to think the name is not that important.
10:14pm 24/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24053 posts
China's ruling party says they're communist. So obviously they completely are. Checkmate capitalists.


oh that's brilliance.
10:17pm 24/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5771 posts
Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?


It's interesting isn't it. A state controlled economy, with market elements (just like Venezuela) has an economy growing faster than the libertarian paradise that is the USA, yet they're very quiet about China.
12:07am 25/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6550 posts



It's interesting isn't it. A state controlled economy, with market elements (just like Venezuela) has an economy growing faster than the libertarian paradise that is the USA, yet they're very quiet about China.
literally the first econ 101 on the subject i could google

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solow%E2%80%93Swan_model

Just in case that was hard to understand and just to make clear why literally every historically underdeveloped economy has outgrown developed economies in absolute growth terms on an avg basis when opened up to market forces edit: or even when not (see Paul Samuelson's famous (repeatedly wrong over decades) forecasts in the geeky econ community as a prime example) AND they haven't been retarded by terrible governance, s***** dictators or other dumb ass s*** (i.e. % yoy over time for a prolonged basis).

Mathematically a high growth rate off a low base.... f*** me why am i posting in this thread. f***
04:08am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3162 posts
the ironing is delicious

for who.


TFW we aren't saying Venezuela is model to follow that's a strawman, and then Vash happens. The ironing is truly very good at this place troggles

pointing to the amazing GDP growth of a country that can get economic growth just by providing enough food (because they don't at the moment). Ah you can't buy this kind of entertainment.
08:36am 25/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7849 posts
China is a polluted, over populated hell hole. Where most human beings are reduced to rice powered robots so the world can have cheap s***.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 10:39:01 25/Apr/18
10:36am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3163 posts
China is a polluted, over populated hell hole.


No see China is a workers paradise where everyone lives perfect lives and walks around in a softly perfumed bubble. Which is why anti-communists are backed into such a corner.

redhat got confused when Deng started talking about the colour of cats didn't you big brains. It's ok. he was being "metaphorical". It's a trap for young players.
10:51am 25/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24054 posts
pointing to the amazing GDP growth of a country that can get economic growth just by providing enough food (because they don't at the moment).


and has bank debt 2.5x that of USA. I thought the US government economy was f***ed until I started reading about China. Luckily for the Chinese government, if the citizens start to get antsy they can just shoot them or crush them with tanks.

I honestly can't believe Vash now refers to China as the socialist paradise.

Finland ends basic income experiment.
10:58am 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5772 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.
11:56am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3164 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.


haha jesus, it's like watching a three-year-old, but with a shorter attention span.

Why would China surpassing the US economically be a thorn in the side of an anti-communist?

Serious question redhat, does vash ever make you facepalm? He produces a never-ending stream of illiterate nonsense. Surely it must upset you to see your best arguments mauled so badly.
12:18pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
990 posts
Chinese are brainwashed by the state from birth. Listening to someone from China supporting communism is like listening to a door-to-door Joseph Smith follower.

One day in the lunch room at this place I once worked, this ex Chinese woman asks me what I think about communism, and then proceeds to explain that it works quite well in China. I did't make any comment, but I did have some thoughts about what I'd like to say to her. She was some low paid office admin idiot. I couldn't believe she came out with her comments.

There should have been some phone number I can ring to report we have a treasonous spy from China working here and needs to be returned to a national with a political environment more aligned with her views.
02:57pm 25/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39576 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.
who gives a s*** if they don't have a democracy and all their wealthy citizens are desperately trying to offshore their wealth by buying real estate outside of the country

I wouldn't take America's GDP as an indicator of how great it is and I don't recommend doing it for China either
03:08pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5773 posts
Yes all horrid things. But you dont hear China as a failed Socialist or Communist experiment do you? It's economic might is on display for all.
03:59pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3165 posts
But you dont hear China as a failed Socialist or Communist experiment do you? It's economic might is on display for all.


Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?
05:02pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2223 posts
Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?

Yeah it's completely a free market. hahahahahahhahhahahhahahhhahahhahah
07:32pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3166 posts
Yeah it's completely a free market. hahahahahahhahhahahhahahhhahahhahah


You don't know what the Shanghai free trade zone is, do you redhat?

The simple fact is their increase in wealth is directly attributable to the amount of socialism they drop, and they are dropping more by the day.

Venture capital is going gangbusters in China redhat. Hardly a socialist enterprise I'm sure you'll agree.
08:45pm 25/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7850 posts
China is now more of a "capitalize the profits for a few and socialize the losses for the masses" type of deal.
09:20pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2224 posts


You don't know what the Shanghai free trade zone is, do you redhat?

The simple fact is their increase in wealth is directly attributable to the amount of socialism they drop, and they are dropping more by the day.

Venture capital is going gangbusters in China redhat. Hardly a socialist enterprise I'm sure you'll agree.


Correlation = causation, more news from the intellectual giant known as porno pete.

Yeah I don't know anything about shanghai trade zones, seems pretty specific if we're discussing china as a whole. Have you actually read anything? What do you read in your spare time with regards to economic policy I'd like to know.
09:27pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3167 posts

Correlation = causation, more news from the intellectual giant known as porno pete.


haha good one redhat. Guess the 40 years of starvation and economic stagnation before deng were only "correlated" with socialism.

Have you actually read anything? What do you read in your spare time with regards to the economic policy I'd like to know.


Ah yeah so I studied WTO law, how to set up companies in China, the Australia China BIT, the basic contract law of China, and dabbled in Chinese bankruptcy scenarios as part of my degree. so I've literally read thousands of pages on how to do business in China. I also worked for a company that did a lot of business in China. Let's just say economic liberalisation in China came up a bit (as in continuously, and is continuously credited with its turn around in poverty).

I'm pretty comfortable with the CCP 30-year trend of trying liberal economic experiments, and those experiments being deployed to the entire nation. The Shanghai free trade zone being one of the more recent, and a full-blown attempt deregulated trade. It is an experiment and if they like the outcome they'll expand it. Given the rumblings out of their securities regulator about establishing institutional investors, it sounds like they like it so far.

I recently listened to a talk by peter thiel about access to venture capital in China which is where that venture capital comment came from. given he is a venture capitalist with a few billion to his name he probably knows what he is talking about.

What do you read redhat?
09:55pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5774 posts
Venezuela also has free trade zones, and a large private industry. But the country's economy is collapsing, because of Socialism right? And because China is succeeding, it's because of Capitalism now. Heh.
10:19pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3168 posts
Venezuela also has free trade zones, and a large private industry. But the country's economy is collapsing, because of Socialism right? And because China is succeeding, it's because of Capitalism now. Heh.


Please try and pack more dumb into a couple of sentences. I was definitely hanging my hat on a single liberal economic experiment in the case of China, and not the four decades of successive trade liberalisation the free trade zone is an example of. What a f*****g idiot.


Anywho

speaking of fantasy universes


infi's meme was definitely attacking a crude rendition of people's actual beliefs. It's not like people would insist that socialism makes china and venezuela awesome or anything.
10:31pm 25/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
600 posts
speaking of fantasy universes


My favourite part is where trog thinks I want absolute anarcho-capitalism. My second-favourite part is where you need to make an absurd story to debunk a fantasy libertarian state whereas you just have to look at the last 12 months in any communist country to see far worse.
08:06am 26/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24056 posts
it was written by a second year lit student who has a beret and a mac.
08:41am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39577 posts
My favourite part is where trog thinks I want absolute anarcho-capitalism.
You've been too careful (or gutless?!) to say what you actually want; remember this conversation started (continued?) because you posted a long boring video about how capitalism is the only thing that ever did anything good for humanity. So what do you want? If you want the continuation of what we have now except with the slider favoured towards capitalism instead of socialism, then woohoo, you're almost exactly the same as me except tilted slightly in the opposite direction. How different we are!
My second-favourite part is where you need to make an absurd story
I assume you know I didn't make it but it's hard to tell and words mean things and facts matter so just want to make sure we're all on the same page
you just have to look at the last 12 months in any communist country to see far worse.
wat, strawman, we haven't been talking about communism
08:49am 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
601 posts
...capitalism is the only thing that ever did anything good for humanity


Nope. Strawman irony below VVV

wat, strawman, we haven't been talking about communism


Communism could be seen as the extreme of socialism as anarcho-capitalism is to libertarianism. I don't know if you're pretending you don't get this basic stuff or you actually don't get it.
09:24am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39578 posts
Nope. Strawman irony below VVV
I made this claim earlier and you didn't call it out as a strawman then. It's not, anyway, but it's possible I misinterpreted the video because I only skipped through it. Maybe you can summarise the video and point out what I misunderstand?
Communism could be seen as the extreme of socialism as anarcho-capitalism is to libertarianism. I don't know if you're pretending you don't get this basic stuff or you actually don't get it.
Speaking of basic stuff, are we talking about "your favourite part" - what you want, or what you don't want? maybe you could pick a conversational thread and run with it instead of deflecting or changing the topic when you're called out on it again and again and again and again
10:20am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39579 posts
it was written by a second year lit student who has a beret and a mac.
man that article (which is a piece of comedic satire) really touched a nerve amongst some of us didn't it. I'm going to POST IT AGAIN AND AGAIN
10:21am 26/04/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13750 posts
^ here in the UK we consider that sort of trolling to be a hate crime
catch yerself on trog (if that's even your real name)
10:39am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39581 posts
^ here in the UK we consider that sort of trolling to be a hate crime
I'm already worried I'm tripping over 18C rules here
10:41am 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
602 posts
I am not going into what I believe. I'd prefer people put their feet in their mouth and troll that.
11:45am 26/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24057 posts
I'm already worried I'm tripping over 18C rules here


it's sad that thought is policed so heavily in Australia.

The article is cringey - like a uni assignment designed to impress his leftist professor. And I doubt it influenced a single person - the real test of satire.
05:20pm 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
603 posts
08:23pm 26/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26373 posts
So you've gone from a 'I am the dark and mysterious internet smart maens none shall ever know the deep complexities that swirl within me' to 'complex legal/medical issues are socialism's fault' while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro, that's one for the future scholars to figure out as they sift through the ruins of the Ausgamers forum. Who was this man? Was he the benevolent saviour of the alt-right subterfuging his way to the very top of the forum with his bastardised Shapiro and Posobiec regurgatite? Or was he just another scared loney little boy bleating his sad howls into the black hole of the internet, the last thing on earth that will tolerate him?
09:11pm 26/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5775 posts
Behold, the glory of socialism


Surely you linked the wrong article. Or would you care to explain how that has anything to do with Socialism...?
09:17pm 26/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3169 posts
while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro,


It's funny someone who links to crikey and the guardian calls out someone's source.

man that article (which is a piece of comedic satire) really touched a nerve amongst some of us didn't it.


so the blow by blow

infi posts meme which accurately reflects vash's and apparently a few others views on socialism.

Trog, deciding it was a strawman, posts a story which is a strawman of infis views (subtext "see I can strawman you too").

Vash promptly confirms infi's meme is accurate.

Trog gets sad that people point out that the strawman is asymmetrical and claims infi is super upset over his post.
09:52pm 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
604 posts
So you've gone from a 'I am the dark and mysterious internet smart maens none shall ever know the deep complexities that swirl within me' to 'complex legal/medical issues are socialism's fault' while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro, that's one for the future scholars to figure out as they sift through the ruins of the Ausgamers forum. Who was this man? Was he the benevolent saviour of the alt-right subterfuging his way to the very top of the forum with his bastardised Shapiro and Posobiec regurgatite? Or was he just another scared loney little boy bleating his sad howls into the black hole of the internet, the last thing on earth that will tolerate him?


Can anyone else hear some buzzing around here?
09:57pm 26/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
991 posts
Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?


Oh Vash I think we struck gold on this page. Shall we give it to Trog so he can divide it out evenly?

and this

China is now more of a "capitalize the profits for a few and socialize the losses for the masses" type of deal.


Maybe if Trog did divide up the gold evenly and handed it out, someone would like to take a small bit extra cause human nature?

Not in Vashland where it rains fairy glitter, and unicorns run wild.

Where is fpot hasn't replied to my true anecdote? He asked for more of them.
10:24pm 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39582 posts
it's sad that thought is policed so heavily in Australia.
You are confusing 'thought' with 'speech', but with that correction, I'm still not sure I disagree
The article is cringey - like a uni assignment designed to impress his leftist professor. And I doubt it influenced a single person - the real test of satire.
you seem influenced as f***! so is the dude that wrote non-libertarian version (who explains in a postscript that he simply cannot understand why libertarians are the target of so many jokes). IT'S A FUNNY PIECE OF WRITING DUDE, not a critical analysis.
09:39am 27/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39583 posts
Behold, the glory of socialism
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters

tldr: the state was not involved
09:45am 27/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5776 posts
Even if the state was involved, it has nothing to do with Socialism. Dazed chose his name well.
10:09am 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
605 posts
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters

tldr: the state was not involved


Are you legitimately claiming that the court's application of legislation is "the state was not involved"? Wow.

By the way, did you read the thread in your second link? It's hard to argue against socialists when they don't even know they are socialists.
10:22am 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26374 posts
I guess Ronny Jackson won't be taking up that rather ahem... rewarding position after all.
12:35pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3170 posts
You seem influenced as f***! so is the dude that wrote non-libertarian version (who explains in a postscript that he simply cannot understand why libertarians are the target of so many jokes). IT'S A FUNNY PIECE OF WRITING DUDE, not a critical analysis.


Gee saying the "funny" piece of writing isn't very funny, and written in the style of an unwashed under grad with pretensions of being "the people's poet" is really striking a nerve with poor old trog.
02:05pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24058 posts
i am lost as to how one could think it was funny. did you think it was funny trog? was it entertaining to you? did it contribute to discourse?
02:21pm 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26375 posts
An image of a politician from the in power party threatening the peace and love party with death - a hilarious image unfairly treated by the fun police.

A piece of satire whose accuracy is confirmed by the gushing tears of the extreme lolbertarians in this very thread - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
02:26pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3171 posts
piece of satire whose accuracy is confirmed by the gushing tears of the extreme lolbertarians in this very thread - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


Seems like trog is the only one crying until now.
02:37pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24059 posts
i was feeling confused about the point of the "satire".
02:41pm 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26376 posts
That's because you're one of the dumbest people alive and without a hint of self-awareness.
02:56pm 27/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
992 posts
Check out these commies marching in Beijing:

https://i.imgur.com/pCGsYf4.jpg
03:05pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3172 posts
Watch fpot go
03:15pm 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
606 posts
I reckon fpot is only this angry on the internet. I reckon in real life he's a big sweetie.
05:56pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24060 posts
It's an outlet. It's hard when you know you're the smartest person in the room but no one acknowledges it.
06:03pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3173 posts
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters tldr: the state was not involved


See the trouble with Twitter is that bots reign supreme (so I'm told, you can paraphrase russian ones). Poor old trog got played by the secret barrister.

She says omg the department of health isn't a party to the proceeding haugh haugh haugh the government (in the narrow sense of the executive) wasn't involved, dummies.

But the applicant is the "Alder Hey Children's NHS Foundation Trust". Which is the Adler Hey Children's Hospital division of the NHS Foundation Trust.

You can google who controls the National Health Service Foundation Trust. I don't want to ruin the surprise.

tldr: the state was not involved


tldr: trog is as wrong as its possible to get, thanks to Twitter. Those bots. They'll gecha.
06:46pm 27/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6553 posts
Probably could have stopped reading when someone claiming to be a barrister used the word legislative as a noun, tbh.

But the general argument that unless the party to a legal proceeding is a minister on behalf of the crown then you aren't dealing with the government is just silly.
08:16pm 27/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39585 posts
Probably could have stopped reading when someone claiming to be a barrister used the word legislative as a noun, tbh.
Are you talking about the 2nd post in that Secret Barrister thread? if I go back with my anal English reading pants on I can see what you mean but you can just read it as an adjective and move on with your life and then think about the rest of the comments independently of minor lapses
But the general argument that unless the party to a legal proceeding is a minister on behalf of the crown then you aren't dealing with the government is just silly.
well, that wasn't the claim made by whatshisface earlier - it was about 'socialism'. edit: my comment was mostly about noting that blaming "socialism" broadly on the actions of a few doctors/administrators is full on moronic, right?

Re: my comment though: I guess I distinguish between "the state" and "the government", which I would concede might just be semantics, but given in the UK something like 15% of the population work for "the government" in some form or another it's kind of inevitable that at some point you're going to cross paths with THE MAN. Obviously "the government" is involved in many things, like if you have to drive somewhere, but the level of their agency in certain decisions actually matters

edit #2: I';ll be honest, I read the twitter thing and took it as way more authoritative than the blogspam that whatshisname posted. it's quite possible that dude is way off in his interpretation but maybe there's a link or something that looks at it in more detail than his misuse of grammar?
08:31pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3174 posts
Dude the simple fact is the hospital as an agent of the state sued to be allowed to turn off life support to the kid. All the "doctors not the state" were called as expert witnesses for the state.

The state far from being not involved was balls deep in it. And I mean in the exact narrow sense the barrister said it didn't. One post in and getting the law wrong is not a good look, unless the point is to rely on an absurd technicality to look the big man in front of your target audience. Seems like mission accomplished.

The rest of the argument is saying that the best interests of the child as determined by experts (specifically state experts) trump the wishes of the parents is the law of the land. Which it maybe but that is where the philosophical argument kicks in.

That's the tldr.

The "barrister" lied by omission.

You bought it cause it played to your ideological preferences. In exactly the same way dazed did I might add.

And as far as socialism maybe a crude short hand, it is still the case that the state argued it knew better than the parents what was best for the child. There is a real question about the limits of the state to intrude into private lives there. And as much as you're calling dazeds shorthand moronic you've hardly covered yourself in glory.
08:50pm 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
607 posts
Post limited again just like I was a decade ago even though my posts weren't deleted. Weird moderating.
12:08am 29/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6554 posts
Are you talking about the 2nd post in that Secret Barrister thread? if I go back with my anal English reading pants on I can see what you mean but you can just read it as an adjective and move on with your life and then think about the rest of the comments independently of minor lapses


Yeah I know it sounds petty as f*** to a layperson (which i also am fwiw) but as someone who deals with lawyers every day as part of my job and knows first hand how pedantic many (but not all omg let's not generalise) can be I just actually can't picture in my mind's eye a barrister, i.e. someone who literally is paid thousands of dollars an hour to be very particular about language, makes that mistake. But tbh let's ignore that cause it's a nothing thing. (edit: irony of writing such a long para about something so petty not lost on me)

Sorry, to be fair I was lashing out at the dumb twitter post because this whole situation seems so f*****g stupid and it feel so gross that it's becoming a political rallying point for both the left and right. I can sort of get my head around the state refusing to treat a patient (though that is an ethical question with a lot of hairs that i haven't thought through). What I can't get my head around is the state forcibly stopping a family from leaving the country to receive treatment that the state isn't willing to offer. If that's getting this situation wrong I'm honestly interested in the counter argument is.
12:43am 29/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26378 posts
On my phone at work but the position of the NHS was that treatment wasn't possible and that travel to Italy would only cause undue suffering for no benefit. Can't easily find any details on what treatment Italy was offering or how effective it might have been. Alfie has sadly passed away.
01:01am 29/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3175 posts
I don't think it is a nothing thing taggs. I think the following two things are closely linked. It isn't a small mistake. The idea that the NHS of the UK *isn't the government* or the state (which is a distinction without a difference in this case) is so wrong a layperson nudged will instantly see the problem.

But tbh let's ignore that cause it's a nothing thing
Sorry, to be fair I was lashing out at the dumb twitter post because this whole situation seems so f*****g stupid and it feel so gross that it's becoming a political rallying point for both the left and right


The mistake, if it was one, is part of the political rallying. So desperate to paint the otherside as knuckle dragging morons for seeing anything at all worth raising a eyebrow about, this so called barrister is willing to obscure the fact the NHS is plainly and obviously part of the executive government. Let's not forget in any other circumstances we'd be hearing about how amazing the NHS is and how dumb Republican Americans are for not wanting it. All of a sudden the NHS isn't the government, oh and Republican Americans are dumb for thinking it is. What utter twaddle.

On my phone at work but the position of the NHS was that treatment wasn't possible and that travel to Italy would only cause undue suffering for no benefit. Can't easily find any details on what treatment Italy was offering or how effective it might have been. Alfie has sadly passed away.


On what planet is that anyone's call but the parents. Climb down in 10, 9....
09:35am 29/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24061 posts
What I can't get my head around is the state forcibly stopping a family from leaving the country to receive treatment that the state isn't willing to offer.


I would expect that behaviour in Russia or China, but England....

parents should (where the State has cut a patient loose) be entitled to pursue any further viable treatment options they want. And if they want to leave the country then why would the government care?
12:42pm 29/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26379 posts
To steer the conversation towards a controversial issue that we actually may all agree on - legalising cannabis - total no brainer at this point don't you think? I accept that it's quite a dramatic change and that certain pollies will need to be against it before they get a sense of the temperature but here's hoping the multiple real world examples of it being a success count for something.
03:41pm 30/04/18 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1121 posts
Make it subject to similar restrictions as smoking cigarettes (in terms of where you can't do it to avoid second hand smoke etc.) and realistic/scientifically backed restrictions similar to alcohol (for things like driving) then yeah, should tote(lly) (heh) be legal.
06:39pm 30/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24062 posts
I just bought into a legal weed farm in Queensland. Let's hope for a 40 bagger.

Cann Group is about to be taken over for $500m.
08:18pm 30/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
993 posts
ABC news website:

South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program.


Story sits at bottom of all other stories at 5:30 pm peak time. Story is not about "why" South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program, but instead about wether Trump could actually be in the running to get one. Well nice left wing play there ABC.

I think the important part in the wall of text they wrote is:

South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program.


These perceptions seem to conflict with the vibe of ABC's story covering Trumps remarks last week about helping out with the NK conflict. Maybe if they asked South Korean President Moon Jae-in for his thoughts before vomiting their left wing bias TDS rubbish, they might be reporting the news more 'accurately' and bias free. It's a concern. Tax payers pay for the junk that comes out of the ABC. If you follow some of the ABC facebook pages, you really start to wonder WTF these people think they are, to push an agenda that is more left than our population votes.

We won't see this on Media Watch, because, they too exhibit bias.
05:46pm 01/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5778 posts
04:01pm 02/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24063 posts
people don't want to pay for stuff and tax the rich instead, i am stunned!
04:05pm 02/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
608 posts

Seems like more people are left leaning than you think Nmag.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/strong-support-for-free-health-education-and-for-taxing-rich-more-poll-20180502-p4zcsj.html




If you take anything from that article other than people generally don't know what they are talking about then I don't know what to tell you. The level of self-contradiction in those statistics is mind boggling.
04:16pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13751 posts

Seems like more people are left leaning than you think Nmag.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/strong-support-for-free-health-education-and-for-taxing-rich-more-poll-20180502-p4zcsj.html




This comment doesn't follow from nmag's - he said "push an agenda that is more left than our population votes", which doesn't make any claim as to how many people are left-leaning, it only states that the abc push an agenda which is further left than the population votes - which is demonstrably true.

To spell it out simply: if you had 99% of the population voting slightly left of centre for example, nmag's statement could still be true if the abc's general agenda was substantially further left than those voters
04:16pm 02/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3176 posts
, it only states that the abc push an agenda which is further left than the population votes - which is demonstrably true.


Spoken like a Russian bot Jim. If that is your real handle.
06:17pm 02/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24064 posts
Jim's programming has definitely changed lately.
06:41pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
994 posts
07:45pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13752 posts
каждый по своим потребностям, но от каждого по способностям
11:20am 03/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3177 posts
Soixante-Huitard
12:06pm 03/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3386 posts
I came across this dashboard for 'monitoring Russian influence activity on Twitter': https://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/ which I thought was interesting. This is also a interesting tool: https://botcheck.me/

I also saw somewhere that Twitter had updated their Russian propaganda linked bot count to around 50,000. Facebook had a couple hundred accounts it closed as they were Russian linked.

And the largest Black Lives Matter page on FB was a scam being run by some Australians!? The largest Black Lives Matter page on Facebook was a scam

I'm not sure we can be so sure that internet propaganda scamming isn't having an effect? Perhaps not as great an effect as some allude to I suppose.

Then in other news I was reading this about Macron today, seems like he might just be getting on a positive track! Measuring Macron - Is France’s leader rebooting the economy?

If Macron does well, might it (a new moderate centre party) become a viable model for the UK, Aus and maybe even the US? Hard to imagine in the US but I could see it in the UK (the Lib Dems were kind of that before they got demolished). Not sure about Aus.
12:58am 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3178 posts
I'm not sure we can be so sure that internet propaganda scamming isn't having an effect? Perhaps not as great an effect as some allude to I suppose.


But what is the effect? Seems to me the odds of someone who buys the Russian bot theory being an unthinking tribal moron go way up. Look at the people who use the term in this thread.

If you've seen the actual content and still believe, it removes all doubt. If you look at the ads Russia placed and think it changed someone's vote for either Trump, or Bernie I might add, you are without a shadow of doubt a tribal idiot who receives propaganda in place of newsand are too dumb to know it.

You stand a better than 80% chance of thinking people who watch fox news are idiots while uncritically reading the guardian.
the prosecution rests
07:38am 04/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41080 posts
lols, that blacklivesmatter facey page sounded like it could have been a nice little earner!
09:35am 04/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
995 posts

Dear Mr Minista,

We the peeps charged with the responsibility to provide service do not like transparency or being held to account for the effectiveness of the services we provide. Facts are dangerous boss.

Labor's education spokesman Jihad Dib, former principal of Punchbowl Boys School, is in support of Mr Stokes' call and said the test had put enormous pressure on families.


It is also providing transparency regarding comparative performance regarding our rich cultural diversities. My fellow communist and socialist supporters also oppose this because facts are dangerous.

not useful as it did not take into account any differences between different schools and communities


People who I identity with are getting a raw deal from this transparency. Facts are bad mkay. Also, we found some kids are getting an advantage because their parents give a crap enough to try and make up for the ineffectiveness of the services we provide. Please stop the transparency and the facts.

Labor's education spokesman Jihad Dib, former principal of Punchbowl Boys School, is in support of Mr Stokes' call and said the test had put enormous pressure on families. "Because of the high stakes nature of it, the tutoring industry has absolutely exploded," he said. "I know stories where parents are working two or three jobs just to pay for their kids to get tutoring. "And kids as young as nine are not getting put into weekend sports just so they can go to cram schools or tutoring centres."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-04/demands-for-naplan-to-be-dumped-in-nsw/9725934

https://i.imgur.com/gF411mk.jpg
09:58am 04/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13753 posts
I wish more news outlets were like https://www.theknifemedia.com/
11:34am 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3179 posts
It'd be nicer if the knife didn't have to exist and you could rely on people who call themselves journalists to do what it says on the tin.
12:20pm 04/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13754 posts
hah :(
01:45pm 04/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24065 posts
great site, Jim.
02:34pm 04/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3387 posts
I get your point there Pete, but from what I've seen it has had some real world effect. I came across these the other night which they're linking as precursors to the supposed election meddling.

Hysteria over Jade Helm exercise in Texas was fueled by Russians, former CIA director says

A former director of the CIA and NSA said Wednesday that hysteria in Texas over a 2015 U.S. military training exercise called Jade Helm was fueled by Russians wanting to dominate “the information space,” and that Texas Gov. Greg Abbott's decision to send the Texas State Guard to monitor the operation gave them proof of the power of such misinformation campaigns.

Michael Hayden, speaking on MSNBC’s Morning Joe podcast, chalked up peoples’ fear over Jade Helm 15 to “Russian bots and the American alt-right media [that] convinced many Texans [Jade Helm] was an Obama plan to round up political dissidents.”

Abbott ordered the State Guard to monitor the federal exercise soon after news broke of the operation. Hayden said that move gave Russians the go-ahead to continue — and possibly expand — their efforts to spread fear.


And, A Russian Facebook page organized a protest in Texas. A different Russian page launched the counterprotest.

Last year, two Russian Facebook pages organized dueling rallies in front of the Islamic Da’wah Center of Houston, according to information released by U.S. Sen. Richard Burr, a North Carolina Republican.

Heart of Texas, a Russian-controlled Facebook group that promoted Texas secession, leaned into an image of the state as a land of guns and barbecue and amassed hundreds of thousands of followers. One of their ads on Facebook announced a noon rally on May 21, 2016 to “Stop Islamification of Texas.”

A separate Russian-sponsored group, United Muslims of America, advertised a “Save Islamic Knowledge” rally for the same place and time.
05:22pm 04/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26381 posts
There's two reasons to downplay the influence of Russian operatives on social media. If you're in panicky denial mode because you're slowly realising the talking points you've been frothing about for years are all based on a lie, or you're in on the scam. What I mean by that is that you're happy with the discord they're sowing because if it helps hard-right political figures get into power it can only be a good thing.

edit: imagine for a second it turns out that it isn't the Russian but instead a rogue AI of unknown origin posing as Russian operatives!@@@! That protest and counter-protest is totally something an AI would do.
05:53pm 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3180 posts
Yeah ok but I reiterate my question what is the effect?

Russia pouring fuel on a pre-existing dumpster fire doesn't seem to me to say much of anything of the actual underlying causes of division.

People don't need much help in that department.

Moreover, the example you provide is a perfect example of why the Russian business is overblown and people who tout it fall into one of two categories.

The Russians don't give a toss about Trump or Clinton. They want to hurt America. That's it. That's the whole motive. And there is a hundred year history of form on that. the evidence you provide neatly demonstrates this. The goal is chaos.

Therefore if you really believe it swayed the election you are a useful idiot. The outrage about Hillary being robbed was and is the point.

But let's not kid ourselves that most left-leaning people haven't managed to convince themselves the US has elected literally Hitler and stands on the precipice of a descent into fascism, quite independently of any Russian help.

That's category 1.

Category 2 know what I'm saying is true and are willing to exploit it anyway.

Do you think the Democrats aren't loving every second of Mueller? I'll say it again he is not going to show collusion.

But they'll pour fuel on that all the way to November anyway.

The point is that Russia is at best a distraction from much bigger and deeper problems which are driving the zeitgeist. For example, an interesting question to do with Russia might be: isn't interesting it happened in conjunction with the rise activist clickbait s***rags like vox?

/Edit/ see fpots post viper. I rest my f*****g case. He's so f*****g dumb he doesn't realise Russian bots pump out his talking points too. God damn, I'm good.
06:19pm 04/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39589 posts
08:14pm 04/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26382 posts
In future news, craft beer brewers keep prices the same because only s*** beer decreases in value.
08:40pm 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3181 posts
I thought I might give a better example for you Viper. or at least a more concrete one.

This is Michael Moore

http://thehill.com/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_small_article/public/blogs/michaelmoore_0.jpg?itok=N5JHP1Wp

He is a fat, lying, hypocritical propagandist.

Michy hates capitalism. This is Michy's million dollar home.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/NiGCX3RL9Nx7cQYwnlAATgrSEq8=/0x600/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4471725/MM26.0.jpg

Michael Moore was a pioneer of the "the spirit of the book is true" (ie the defence of fire and fury being essentially fact-free) "documentary" making.

This Is Michael Moore out the front of trump tower looking sad and making a banal uniformed point about immigration (but I think we both know he's sad cause they ran out of taco bowls).

https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.11242949.1450452716!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpg

Michael Moore received universal praise for his letter which accompanied that photo. His letter does not engage with a single one of the policy issues that the temporary travel ban was put in place to deal with or how they might better be addressed. It waxes lyrical about the nation of immigrants platitudes that we have all heard from the usual suspects for over a decade now. It refuses to accept there may actually be hard choices in immigration policy and happily calls anyone who disagrees racist.

This is Micheal Moore at a rally organised by Russians.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/02/20/16/4968383B00000578-5413699-image-m-13_1519142788004.jpg

Do you think fpot, vash, phooks, trog or anyone even vaguely left-leaning will ever say this

What I mean by that is that you're happy with the discord they're sowing because if it helps hard-right political figures get into power it can only be a good thing.


about his participation in that rally? Or do you think some sort of Moore discusses real issues apologia would be the outcome? Even more interesting do you think it is an important fact that Russians organised the rally he attended? if so why? My thoughts are Moore is a fat lying hypocritical propagandist who'd be saying his bulls*** to anyone who'll listen regardless of who organised and that is the real problem.

Is it possible (or insert iron clad certainty) that his brand of activism (the don't include facts which hurt your plea [or generally for that matter] to emotion kind) takes a lions share of responsibility for the current political climate? Could it be that 18 long years of calling Republicans inhuman monsters may have just had a little bit more to do with election of someone who doesn't care if you call him racist or sexist than 16 Russians (the grand total Mueller was able to indict after 18 months of investigation) who'll never see the inside of a courtroom? I'm just spit ballin here.
06:04pm 06/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24066 posts
It's because he really cares.
07:57am 07/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26384 posts
One thing I am sure we can all agree on in regards to the Russian collusion thing is that trump seems incredibly resistant to blackmail. Russian intelligence would probably have a tough time getting to such a brilliant man so that's one point for the trump is clean crew I guess!
08:48am 07/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3182 posts
It's because he really cares.


I'd be disappointed too. I hear the taco bowls at Trump Tower really are very good.
12:08pm 07/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
996 posts
When you sell media it's good to introduce as a much controversy as possible. You can have a panel of global experts, and the media will find opposition to the panel and give the minority opinion a disproportionate amount of air time, in the minorities favour. Media love minorities.

"Here we have Mr Tool from outback Australia who says Trump looked at him funny one day through the TV. Mr Tool says..." blah blah 3 paragraphs.
01:52pm 07/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3183 posts
Mueller's crack team of crack prosecutors known for cracking skills have asked for a 6 week adjournment because they claim they failed to serve process on a company correctly who was in court to hear the request for the adjournment.

The point of service is to alert the other side they have to attend court. Nothing says slam dunk prosecution like saying you need 6 weeks to tell the person standing beside you court they need to attend court.
06:23pm 08/05/18 Permalink
funky
Canada
1931 posts
isn't the knife media a sort of front for/allied with that NXIVM cult? I had a quick look at that site and it reminded me of an article i read, after a re-google of things i think this is the article i found when i was randomly reading on NXIVM -https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/05/the-knife-of-aristotle-isnt-just-a-fake-fake-news.html, another i found - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/987715294377533440.html

a quick googling suggests that at least some of the people listed on the knife media's staff page are connected to NXIVM / Keith Raniere - http://ivynevares.com/about/

no idea how credible this guy is (or the other sites, to be honest, but there does seem to be some defined links with screenshots etc), but his website seems dedicated to Raniere/NXIVM and he connects a bunch of the Knife media people to being NXIVM coaches - https://frankreport.com/2016/02/06/media-watchdog-knife-of-aristotle-filled-with-nxivm-coaches/

anyway, the mention of that site pinged my memory so i thought i'd check it out again, interesting that it portrays itself as a site to cut through the slant but also appears to be populated with people with people associated with an indicted sex cult. interesting!
10:56am 09/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
609 posts
11:36am 09/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
997 posts

My review of ABC news today.

At about 9:30 am this morning this headline on http://www.abc.net.au/news/

"Donald Trump may have put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

was

"Donald Trump has put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

So I read it, and the detail was like "If this happens, then this might happen, and if that does happen, this might happen, and if that happen, there is a chance of this other thing happening, which could put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

Even professional journalists suffer TDS, rage with a blurt, and then wind it back as it seems like gross exaggeration, scare mongering and clearly politically biased.

Iran deal: Donald Trump may have put the Middle East on a path to disaster By Middle East Correspondent Matt Brown Updated about an hour ago
Quoted at 6pm.

In better news, written by the obviously communist and socialist Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/08/abc-funding-slashed-by-84m-in-budget-to-help-broadcaster-live-within-their-means

Hooraayyyy! ABC cut by $84m
06:05pm 09/05/18 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14889 posts
We are outraged that the ABC are not being biased and saying we, the Liberal government are the best that Australia has ever seen and that Turnbull does not actually poo. Despicable scum need to be taught a lesson despite the huge amount of positives that ABC has through national home grown comedy, music and arts schemes and the amount of equal ground journalism conducted on a say in day out basis.

But also here Foxtel have $30M last year because we know you love rimming us hard.
11:13pm 11/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7853 posts
^ Agree with everything except for the non bias journalism. I watch the Drum most nights and the bias is sickening.
08:21am 12/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
998 posts
JJJ staff work hard at filling as much air time as possible with articles centred on the concerns of left wing voters. Did you miss the "Move the date" campaign for the JJJ Top 100? My understanding is they justified it by "polling their listeners".
03:34pm 12/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5779 posts
Reality has a left wing bias
03:48pm 12/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3184 posts
Reality has a left wing bias


Jesus that is one of the dumbest quotes of all time.

The ABC's coverage of pulling out of the Iran deal has been a joke. There has been no analysis at all of the major faults with the deal (a big one being it doesn't stop them getting nukes it just slows them down). They just talk about how the US is isolated now. That's a laugh.

You watch the Euro's change their tune when their companies start getting hit with sanctions.

The idea that Trump could have put the middle east a path to war is pretty funny by pulling out of the deal. As contrasted with what exactly? that stuff going on in Syria seems a bit like a war.
04:32pm 12/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39590 posts
^ Agree with everything except for the non bias journalism. I watch the Drum most nights and the bias is sickening.
what do you think their bias is towards?
08:10pm 13/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
999 posts

They are clearly biased to the left.

This weeks assessment:

ABC has been particularly a-political in the last few days. Good work ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-14/naplan-tests-are-valuable-and-cis-report-backs-testing/9757552

Their article today, regarding this report, appears to conflict with some of the rubbish ABC has been giving air to. Rubbish that would agree with public sector education union... the teachers who don't like transparency and facts.


10:45am 14/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9599 posts
Biased? Or is that just the way same grounding ends up being?
02:32pm 14/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26390 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.
06:41am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3185 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.


Lol that's like totes definitely what happened and fpot is definitely not providing an anti-insight. Must have been while Israel was treating people like chattel in their concentration camps trying to raise satan with child sacrifices and re-introducing jim crow on brown people.

I heard also that they give Palestinians aids by clawing out their eyes and getting aids infected zombies to piss in the empty sockets. That was article 5 of the skyes picot accord which fpot definitely knows exists and its role in the middle east.

Lol, I'm politically engaged like fpot.
06:53am 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26391 posts
And like, the President of the United States hasn't even mentioned it even though he's partly responsible. Instead he's whining about fake news and congratulating Israel on their big day. Welcome to 2018 mother f*****s. And unless that wretched waste of life above me there is apologising for being such an obtuse little d*** and begging forgiveness for how he could be so f*****g stupid, there's an army of people, some real some not, willing to defend him no matter what he does or what he says. He is a god who can do no wrong.
07:19am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3186 posts
I know right. I'm so politically informed I know moving an embassy is the "cause" the people innocenly throwing Molotov c***tails and launching rockets at Israeli civilians and soliders for five weeks. That's a valid use of the word "cause" for totes reals. Hamas didn't cause anything by threating to tear down a border fence and kill everyone. It was Trump. I've noticed a strange rash around my a****** recently. Probs Trump caused it in a tots fash move.

I'm so good at spotting fascists I know that the fascists definitely Arent the Hamas acolytes literally flying Nazi flags. It's definitely the person who won his election (and definitely not to the group violently disposing of the PA in Gaza openly committed to the genocide of all jews, and who are unable to provide drinking water but mysteriously always have money for rockets to launch at Jews.)

Look at how good I am at political. Way better than you chattel jim crow owning sons of b****** who lack any self awareness.

I'm like totes informed. I read it in the guardian and vox. Then I saw a Russian bot disagree with me only further proving my knowing of the politics is perfect.

Haha post limit increased. Still worth it. Fpot gets sad when you point out his vacuous non-opinions are vacuous non-opinions. To the person who limited me. Feel free to step through why I should be post limited for pointing out saying Trump is responsible for "murdered" Palestinians is a profoundly stupid thing to say. It's is a sad excuse for thought and respresents the nub of the current political climate, my tone echos his for that reason. It should be stridently paid out. You're welcome.
07:56am 15/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24068 posts
that was woke af
10:21am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3187 posts
Turns out talking to fpot like he talks to everyone else is one of fpots buttons.
11:46am 15/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9600 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.


I know, right. I should totally be able to start a riot on the border with modified flags bearing the swastika, and fly kites over the line of soldiers to drop explosives on to them, and expect to not get shot. It's completely unreasonable for explosives to be retaliated to with bullets.
02:00pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3188 posts
Careful Raven.

You've clearly been listening to Russian bots to express such an opinion.
02:57pm 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26393 posts
I know, right. I should totally be able to start a riot on the border with modified flags bearing the swastika, and fly kites over the line of soldiers to drop explosives on to them, and expect to not get shot. It's completely unreasonable for explosives to be retaliated to with bullets.
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.
04:13pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3189 posts
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.


Wow.

There will be no context around that baldfaced stupidity.

Don't expect to see the number of protesters in attendance or how many people were shot, as opposed to injured by exposure to tear gas any of that.

The picture quite deliberately being painted and diametrically opposed to reality is Isreali soliders went on a cold blooded killing spree.

Oh and it's trumps fault that they did.
04:22pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5780 posts
I wonder how many of those 1400 injured were using explosives.

edit: is it 2700 now? :/
04:49pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41084 posts
good to see Tone now wants Australia to move its embassy to the big J.
06:29pm 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26394 posts
He knows his audience.
06:58pm 15/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7854 posts
guys guys! what would happen if Hamas stopped being terrorist karnts and a publically elected government allowed the Palestinians to accept the two state solution?
07:00pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3190 posts
Turnbull is laying the blame on Hamas.

Julie Bishop and bill shorten have said Isreal has an unequivocal right to defend itself.

I'm sure they were informed by the alt right as well. Or Russian bots.

It's almost like fpot is wrong. Again.


Slaps. Nothing would happen because Isreal us the root of all evil according to someone who like really hates Nazis
07:08pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5781 posts
guys guys! what would happen if Hamas stopped being terrorist karnts and a publically elected government allowed the Palestinians to accept the two state solution?


What if the people of Palestine don't want that, and would prefer to have some of their land back?

Im sure we've all seen this.

https://i.imgur.com/bJyIuam.jpg
08:09pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3191 posts
Vash will be able to tell you who made that map and the significance of 1949 and 1968.

He'll be able to tell you when he says they want "their" land back who governed the entire area on that map prior to 1948.

He'll be able to tell you who rejected the deal for Jerusalem to be an internationally governed city state.

He'll be able to say who keeps rejecting peace deals. He'll be able to tell you all this from his own extensive knowledge of the history of the conflict.

He isn't posting BDS propaganda memes because the were posted on a socialist alliance Facebook feed.
08:36pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1000 posts
Pull everyone out of the middle east. Give Israel the option to form a new place in USA somewhere. They can take their wall and even a mountain if necessary. It can be done.

Some will move, some will stay. Then let the region sort itself out. I'd stand well back while this happens. Puts some bets on centre bet and watch it play out.

Make sure most the worlds journalists go over there to get close to the action for the best footage of the mass carnage that will eventually lead to world peace.

The USA economy might not cope without enough war though.
09:02pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5782 posts
Give Israel the option to form a new place in USA somewhere.


lol
07:24am 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3192 posts
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.


Hamas now claiming at least 10 of those killed were members of their interior ministry. link

If I was to claim the IDF was murdering people at Trumps behest I'd want to be sure what was obviously a terrorist run riot at a border with an express goal of causing innocent casualties wasn't that. Otherwise I'd run the risk of obscenely grandstanding on the dead to virtue signal about Trump.

So dear admins. Now that fpot is indisputably factually wrong and baselessly accusing people of the most repulsive crimes and has demonstrated he is willing to stand on the bodies of those killed to take a factually wrong swipe at Trump I look forward to a similar post limit being implemented on him and mine being lifted.
07:27am 16/05/18 Permalink
funky
Canada
1932 posts
Interestingly NMag, that was sort of a proposal in the 40's - Slattery Report - Jewish European Refugees to Alaska

last edited by funky at 09:15:15 16/May/18
09:14am 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9601 posts
I mean we could probably do the same and give them a nice chunk of land in the Northern Territory if we really wanted - problem is, they don't want to, both sides are f*****g bats*** crazy and see it as some kind of religious right to be specifically there, so they'll never go for it.
12:53pm 16/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26396 posts
01:01pm 16/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
610 posts
With all this talk of historical land rights, I think it pertinent to demand the return of Istanbul to the Glorious Holy Roman Empire. #MakeIstanbulConstantinopleAgain
02:13pm 16/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26397 posts
Nice strawman.
02:20pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9602 posts
With all this talk of historical land rights, I think it pertinent to demand the return of Istanbul to the Glorious Holy Roman Empire. #MakeIstanbulConstantinopleAgain


Pft, what about Mauritania, Gaul, even Britania? Hadrian drew a line in the sand and the Northen brits invaded while the empire needed protecting.
03:52pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1001 posts
I think the Palestinians are rightly pissed off, and that out mainstream media tends to try and pull our heart strings for Israel. On this topic I'd say ABC and SBS are probably more objective with their reporting. Through our education system, mainstream media, documentaries, the entertainment industry, american movies, Hollywood.. we tend to get a flavour. It's almost as if the Jewish world has a great deal of influence over how these things are communicated. Some might regard it as "information warfare".

I recommend finding opposing views to mainstream and consider them. Watch a video of religion spreading and changing in Europe. It's like someone dumped the Jews right in the middle of the Muslim heartland, like trying to treat a continually expanding and contracting problem. They can both make religious claims about the land, but if we just agreed that there is no magical intervening being then the case of moving the Jews out is easy. Then they can claim they were there thousandths of year ago.. well stiff s***. I probbaly had decedents thousands of years ago in Europe and I'm not claiming that land under the banner of Atheism.
06:50pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9603 posts
If they agreed there was no magical intervening being would they still be Jews? Hell, would there still be a need to move them out since there's no being for the other side to claim insists they be driven in to the ocean?
07:03pm 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3193 posts
It's like someone dumped the Jews right in the middle of the Muslim heartland, like trying to treat a continually expanding and contracting problem.


Its nothing like that at all.

They can both make religious claims about the land, but if we just agreed that there is no magical intervening being then the case of moving the Jews out is easy.


No it isn't.

Then they can claim they were there thousandths of year ago.. well stiff s***


They don't claim that. They claim they have been there for thousands of years and they have. Jeruselum has had a continuous Jewish population for at least the last 5000 years. they've been in Jerusalem for nearly double the time Italians have been in Rome. the region more broadly probably more like 10,000 years. Not they were there and came back. They have been there the whole time. they have as strong a claim to the land as any people have to any land anywhere.
08:05pm 16/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7855 posts
My prophet is George Carlin.



08:08pm 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3194 posts
Here little dose of reality from the 2014 war in Gaza.

When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)


There is simply no question Hamas routinely use human shields and attack civilian populations. It is their MO and has been from the start.

The idea the media biased in favour of Israel is nothing short of delusional. the AP didn't report Hamas rockets being fired beside their office while condemning Israel for falsely claiming they were responding to Hamas firing from civilian populated areas.

The idea that Hamas (or their supporters) are underdogs held down by an oppressor and they want a reasonable solution is also nothing short of delusional.

This coverage is the source of comments like this
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers,


Which is so dumb it's close to anti-thought.
10:15pm 16/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
611 posts


What if the people of Palestine don't want that, and would prefer to have some of their land back?

Im sure we've all seen this.

https://i.imgur.com/bJyIuam.jpg
http://www.winnipegjewishreview.com/userFiles/images/img2_3866.jpg

See how pretty maps are meaningless when you fail to understand history and its context?
09:05am 17/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1002 posts
I think we are seeing exaggeration from both sides of the argument. I believe most of this statement:

The Land of Israel has come under the sway of various empires and has been home to a variety of ethnicities, but was predominantly Jewish from roughly 1,000 years before the Common Era (BCE) until the 3rd century of the Common Era (CE).[1] The adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire in the 4th century led to a Greco-Roman Christian majority which lasted until the 7th century when the area was conquered by the Arab Muslim Empires. It gradually became predominantly Moslem until the Crusades between 1096 and 1291, when it was the focal point of conflict between Christianity and Islam. From the 13th century it was mainly Moslem with Arabic as the dominant language and was first part of the Syrian province of the Mamluk Sultanate and then part of the Ottoman Empire until the British conquest in 1917. A Jewish national movement, Zionism, emerged in the late-19th century (partially in response to growing anti-Semitism) and Aliyah (Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel) increased. After World War I, Ottoman territories in the Levant came under British and French control and the League of Nations granted the British a Mandate to rule Palestine which was to be turned into a Jewish National Home. A rival Arab nationalism also claimed rights over the former Ottoman territories and sought to prevent Jewish migration into Palestine, leading to growing Arab–Jewish tensions. Israeli independence in 1948 was marked by massive migration of Jews from Europe, a Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries to Israel, and of Arabs from Israel, followed by the Arab–Israeli conflict.[2] About 43% of the world's Jews live in Israel today, the largest Jewish community in the world.[


1000 BC - 300 AD predominately Jewish. That's ancient history. In our modern history, like in the last 100 years the Jews flocked there after Israel being formed.

Watch the video of religion pulsing and shifting around Europe, and tell me again how dumb I am for stating it's like Israel was set up right in the middle of Muslim heart land. We haven't even got to oil yet, we still just on religion. Israel is an aggressive strategic outpost for the West.

https://youtu.be/AvFl6UBZLv4
09:54am 17/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3195 posts
Nmag there is a difference between predominantly Jewish, and a Jewish community being present, there are a few people in the bible before david. Jews have been a minority where ever they are for the vast majority of recorded history.

Archaeological evidence of Hebrew speaking people goes back at least 10000 in the areas in and around Israel. There has been a Jewish presence in Jersuleum since its founding in 3000 BCE. we are now in 2018 AD. You can run the numbers yourself.

Muslims had not controlled the land around Israel and Palestine for nearly 30 years prior to the formation of Israel. Local Muslims hadn't controlled the land for like 400 year before that, the Ottomans ruled it out of modern Turkey. The reason for Israel to exist is that Jews have been living there continuously for thousands of years, and the ottomans track record on the Jews was utterly wretched. even during mandate Palestine ethnic violence between jews and muslims/arabs was common. It is just not true that a bunch of jews were dumped on a bunch of unsuspecting Muslims in their "heartland" in a European "here you deal with it" scenario.

As for a wave of immigration after the formation of Israel, whats your point? The claim to the land doesn't stand or fall with that. But even if it was a point, remind me again why the Jews wanted to leave Europe after WW2. You managed to overlook all the Arab countries expelling jews as well. Where were they supposed to go?
12:31pm 17/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26399 posts
Today, in another totally not fascist move by the democratically elected US government, the President of the United States appointed Gina Haspel as CIA director. Gina Haspel is famous for torturing people to death and then destroying the evidence (but but but her destroyed torture tapes!).

People on twitter, some real some not, are saying it's a great decision. We need people in important places capable of being able to make the big decisions, like forcing food up someone's ass when they refuse to eat. It's for national security and I was just following orders.
01:21pm 18/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3196 posts
Oh I was confused. See when you celebrated North Korea pulling out of talks I thought you must like torture. Cause they do a s***load of it. I mean some people might think cheering a regime like that to score the most banal of points would make squealing like a stuck pig now abit hypocritical.

Some might also think the zero times you've ever mentioned extra judicial killing by drone strike authorised by the CIA under Obama might also makes this sudden concern about torture a bit hypocritical.

That's not the moral high ground you're standing on chum.
02:18pm 18/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1003 posts
in the last 100 years the Jews flocked there after Israel being formed


It's valid. You may have missed the video of the pulsing Muslim heartland with Israel plonked in the middle of it.
11:12pm 18/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7856 posts
Equality of ....

08:28am 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26400 posts
I've seen this Jordan Peterson pop up on certain twitters. Seems to be the darling of insufferable red pilled virgins from what I can see.

And another school shooting in the US. Some white guy. Probably some incel angry because a girl said no to him. Probably a big fan of trump. Business as usual.
12:34pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7857 posts
^ completely wrong

His whole point is he encourages free speech based on facts. Not this red/blue pill, right vs left identity politics bulls***.

He has been adopted by some right wing nutter utube channels but if you have a broad look at his other comments he doesn't identify with any real group and uses facts based on research to form his independent views.

He rips this b**** a new one when she tries to pigeon hole him.





last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 13:20:52 19/May/18
01:12pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26401 posts
Sure it is.
01:16pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7858 posts
More pigeonhole ripping

01:23pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26402 posts
I don't think anyone watches your dumb videos mate.
01:30pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7859 posts
^ Really, come on mate
01:34pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26403 posts
If you go to the effort of typing a brief description in the most non-bias terms possible people might. No description no click is a policy I hold and I'm sure others do too.

I just saw your edit on the first dumb video. It's obvious you get very excited when a b**** gets told what's what. Completely normal behaviour you seem very well adjusted.
01:37pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5783 posts
That second video doesn't seem like he ripped into her at all. Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life. He basically comes down to, life is hard, dont worry about the wordly problems and just work on cleaning your room.
03:12pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3197 posts
^ Really, come on mate
.

Did you honestly expect any different.


I just saw your edit on the first dumb video. It's obvious you get very excited when a b**** gets told what's what. Completely normal behaviour you seem very well adjusted.


Look at how long it took to default to "you don't agree with me therefore you are a bigot".

Is there some compelling reason fpot doesn't get consistently banned and nuked?

This is as deep as he ever goes.
04:29pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7860 posts
fpot is the forum PC Principal. I'm glad he's here to put me in my place... I was getting out of control.

Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life.


Interesting opinion Vash, I didn't get that impression at all.
04:45pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1004 posts
fpot is easily triggered. He has nightmares about Donald Trump coming to the Gold Coast to get him whens he's sleep.

It could be attributed to confirmation bias and an inability to recognise that a lot of journalists and the entertainment industry who deliver his Trump-hate-news-feeds have more reason to hate on Trump than fpot does. It sells papers, and journalists and the entertainment industry can earn credibility and money easily by going with the Trump hate angle on a naive market that want more trump hate articles.
06:09pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26404 posts
The irony of being deemed 'triggered' by a ponce so fragile that he's up to his third, fourth, fifth, tenth account is not lost on me. Brave enough to say who you really are yet or are you still building up to it?
06:30pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Jim
13755 posts
That second video doesn't seem like he ripped into her at all. Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life. He basically comes down to, life is hard, dont worry about the wordly problems and just work on cleaning your room.


Sure, if the only thing you bothered to read or view about Jordan Peterson were disingenuous or ignorant hit pieces. Jordan Peterson has plenty of flaws but what leftists claim they are, usually aint one of them.



And those types of videos are usually ridiculous because instead of showing context and allowing the nuances of an issue to be shown to the viewer, they show short snips that probably just somehow gratified the bias of the video creator. They are generally anti-intellectual wastes of time, probably even clickbait for youtube views in a lot of cases.
07:13pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3198 posts
fpot is the forum PC Principal. I'm glad he's here to put me in my place... I was getting out of control.


Aren't we all. If there is one thing I've taken from your posts it's how much you obviously hate women. I take it mostly from the aggressive typeset you use.

I just know deep down you prefer Helvetica and that means you are a nazi Russian bot who hates women.
08:24pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7861 posts
Yes thank skydaddy for fpot!

He looked deep into my soul and diagnosed my mental deficiency. I'm now in therapy. I'll keep the forum posted with my progress!
09:27pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3199 posts
Yes you'll need three hail metoos, and four vivalaresistances.

You must wear a pussy hat for the next week to appease the vengeful and knowing fpot.
09:13am 20/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26405 posts
Three posts and you're still talking about it. Sensitive much? I'm sorry for bringing it up mate I won't shame you for enjoying your b****** getting told videos anymore.
12:26pm 20/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3200 posts
Yeah slaps do you feel ashamed for failing to walk the highroad like fpot.

This fpot being mature.

All it is is fpot can flail around like an utter retard and if you object to his banal thoughtless insults you're immature.
01:46pm 20/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26406 posts
I have a honest question for parents on here - if you lived in the USA what would your thoughts be about the situation and what would your approach be if your kid went to an at risk school? I honestly don't know what I'd do, but I know what I'd think. I'd feel completely checkmated by it. While the NRA exists nothing will get done. If the gun problem isn't solved by this school shooting or maybe the next one in a couple of months then it proves (if it hasn't been already) that this is an insurmountable problem. I point out Parkland in particular because it was the first one where the victims were able to muster a voice and actually break through a little. Seemed new to me and for a second there I thought it might work. I feel this most recent (at time of typing) shooting is going to be spun in a way that makes their approach seem ineffective so MORE GUNS ARE NEEDED. The only thing to do is convert schools into fortresses and if you can find a better example of once hypothesized dystopia becoming real-life dystopia then be on the lookout for replicants.
08:46pm 20/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7862 posts
I've given up on 'Merica with regards to guns. Guns are just so ingrained into their culture that I reckon there could be a massacre once a month and the NRA and gun nuts still would not give one millimetre of ground to rational Gun Control laws.

And then there is the issue of actually implementing gun control in a country of 350 million people and 270 million firearms.
10:25pm 20/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3201 posts
and the NRA and gun nuts still would not give one millimetre of ground to rational Gun Control laws.


A starting position might be to recognise "gun nuts" are exercising a constitutionally enshrined right.

Another position to adopt might be to specifically say what "common sense gun control" looks like.

Yet another position might be recognise that the kids calling Marco Rubio a murderer who accepts Blood money makes for tv fpot can flick that bean to but is fundamentally dishonest and flatout counter productive.

After that town Hall and the utterly cynical "March for our lives" the NRA registered a surge in membership and polling for gun control started to swing toward the NRA position.

To make this point crystal clear. Fpot's thought that having school kids scream like, well children, at elected representatives would be effective was obviously retarded. It's demonstrably pushed changes to gun laws further away.

But I note he hasn't changed his attitude or approach. You might draw some uncharitable conclusions from that.
08:05am 21/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
612 posts
If anti-gun zealots ever used some statistically backed arguments instead of a fanatical commitment to virtue signalling they might be considered. It has nothing to do with whether or not a 2nd Amendment organisation exists. Start by answering the question of gun crime in Chicago.
12:26pm 21/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39592 posts
If anti-gun zealots
rhetoric to try to frame everyone that is anti-gun as a wild crazy haired hippy "zealot"
ever used some statistically backed arguments
attempt to use "science" to defend point while simultaneous not making one AND adding no evidence or data of their own
instead of a fanatical commitment to virtue signalling
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling", a phrase which you can attach to literally anything and of course is always negative, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to use the term objectively without virtue signalling of your own
they might be considered
you have to pretend and hand-wave pretty hard to ignore the vast volumes of insightful thought that has been published on this topic in the last few decades that carefully addresses all of these criteria and still have not been considered
It has nothing to do with whether or not a 2nd Amendment organisation exists
attempt to disregard one of the most interesting issues in the gun debate
Start by answering the question of gun crime in Chicago.
please ignore the massive problem of school shooting caused by easy access to guns and instead solve this other huge problem which is in no small way affected by easy access to guns

master class trolling
01:01pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9605 posts
what would your approach be if your kid went to an at risk school?


What is considered an 'at risk' school? *Any* school?
01:43pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26407 posts
I thought about omitting the at risk part but I left it in because I assumed there'd be at least some schools in the USA that could be considered safe and that some parents might not actually need to worry about their kids being murdered on a daily basis.
01:50pm 21/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3202 posts
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling", a phrase which you can attach to literally anything and of course is always negative, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to use the term objectively without virtue signalling of your own


Virtue Signalling is the act of public displays of loyalty to a given political point of view, with the goal of "signalling" your conformance with given groups political mores, rather than a good faith argument about complex moral issues. For example this in response to the slavish demonising the NRA.
attempt to disregard one of the most interesting issues in the gun debate


What is the most interesting part of the NRA's involvement exactly? the fact they are a useful shorthand for assigning blame for a complex problem? That is interesting, but I doubt it's what he meant.

attempt to use "science" to defend point while simultaneous not making one AND adding no evidence or data of their own
not engago in three two one

If trog engages at all, the response is going to include something like "it left a bad taste in my mouth arguing when there are dead kids", in a genuflection which definitely isn't this:

you have to pretend and hand-wave pretty hard to ignore the vast volumes of insightful thought that has been published on this topic in the last few decades that carefully addresses all of these criteria and still have not been considered


For example, it's going to be amazing when the fact the shooter in Texas wasn't legally able to buy the gun he used gets addressed. Which is definitely going to happen instead of a few posts of variations on won't someone think of the children.

instead solve this other huge problem which is in no small way affected by easy access to guns

There is definitely going to be some reflection about Chicago implementing gun control and how effective it was.

*edit*
03:48pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26408 posts
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling"
It's pretty much a classic endgame argument for toxic bad faith arguers. Once every argument of theirs has been debunked, once every apologist road has been worn to the point it can no longer be walked they revert to the you're just pretending to care argument. It's at that point they break, because once that argument has been used there's no going back and they have to either admit they were wrong about something (which for them is impossible) or doggedly stick to it even though it's obviously not true. It's how trainwrecks of humanity are born.
04:20pm 21/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3203 posts
Once every argument of theirs has been debunked


Heh

not engago in three two one


See its when the "debunking" step gets routinely skipped, the odds of virtue signalling start increasing.
05:18pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1005 posts
fpot, the Americans have got serious issues. I think far worse than us. The gun issue is just an indication of what a messed up nation they are. Their pride demonstrated in their eagles, flags and general nationalism around their branding is evidence of how deluded and proud they are. They are very proud of their crap nation, and generally don't like outsiders providing guidance on how they might do things better. Many of them struggle with the concept that their nation is not as good as they try to brainwash themselves to believe.

Firearms
African american racial issues
Indigenous Indian issues
Sharing a border with Mexico
Their obsession with "Made in USA"
They like to do manufacturing, however are a little less accommodating of the shift to a global market where we buy "Made in China" more and more.
Obesity
Crime in general
Being involved in so many wars
Evangelism
Massive cars

I'm sure you could list some 'green' issues they have, and most likely comment on how they got into a situation where their President would be either be Sanders, another Clinton, or Donald Trump.

The place is bewildering.

To use a quote from an American tourist visiting overseas "Oh yeah the countries overseas were great, but so many immigrants"

So many of their issues come from refusing to realise they are more messed up than they think. Delusion.
06:13pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9606 posts
It's so incredibly true. Many examples of it you can see without even having to go over there: Just look at any online forum. Reddit is a great example - anyone who tells an American that the way they do things has other better ways of being done gets downvoted to oblivion, on nearly any topic.

When you actually go there, it's a f*****g bizarre place. I can barely think of a time I've felt unsafe walking around anywhere in Melbourne late at night. Yet in the majority of cities I've visited in the US, it's very much a case of needing to be really cautious of everyone you come across.

Their obsession with nationalism is cult-like; their brainwashing with religion worse. As a foreigner you go to a hockey or basketball match and you suddenly wonder what the f*** you got in to, when it comes to the way they treat the national anthem and war vets. The latter is utterly insane in the way it comes up - you'd think they were gladiators of ancient times, with the way they're made out to be worshiped.

Don't get me started on cars and transport. The entitlement. Holy f***. The mere idea that anyone needs something of the ridiculous size and destructive power of an F250 for everyday use - why!? Oh right, because "freedom".
08:19pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24069 posts
risk management means taking reasonable steps to mitigate the risk. given the guns are going nowhere I would expect my child to be protected at the places she is in care.

I am very curious to hear a proposed gun control solution. the shooter used a shotgun and a revolver. no assault weapons involved.

America is born out of guns, guns are protected by the second amendment. controls such as backgrounds checks and licensing already exist. unless an amendment to the constitution occurs, nothing in the regulatory sphere will change this.

mass shootings are an american phenomenon due to their culture, not due to the guns. My personal view is the US is on the cutting edge of many late 20th/21st century issues: breakdown of the family, social media/fame/narcissism bug , internet's contribution to removal of real person interactions, have it now - inability to delay gratification, medication of society. There are so many "American" issues all converging on a young populace not yet equipped to handle the stress they are capable of causing.

Sapiens are used to leading a very slow existence which until the last 100 years was the case. Our latest technologies compound this anxious pressure exponentially. America is the epicentre of them. And guns like amplifiers on a sound stage make the small vibrations a millions times more powerful. The shootings are a symptom of a very sick national culture. Remember: black on black is the number one gun homicide category.

School shootings are a distinct phenomenon. The shooters want to exert power, they want to be famous, they feel powerless, isolated, rejected. Grab a gun and teach all the haters a lesson. I found Sandy Hook the saddest, what type of monster would you have to be to do that in a primary school. America is culturally and economically sinking.
08:49pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9607 posts
I am very curious to hear a proposed gun control solution. the shooter used a shotgun and a revolver. no assault weapons involved.


Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.

Who's going to want to sell a gun to someone they can't be 100% certain isn't going to use it for a legal purpose? It doesn't violate any 2nd amendment rights as you still have the right to own one - it's just someone needs to be willing to provide the firearm to begin with.
09:35pm 21/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39594 posts
great post infi, I agree pretty much completely
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.
there are a zillion guns already out there, what would be the point?
09:54pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26410 posts
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold. 
I really like this idea. Not saying it's problem free and ready to be implemented but it's good.
09:56pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24070 posts
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.


Guess we make car dealers (or even second hand car sellers) responsible for DUI killers too.
10:00pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26411 posts
You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.
10:04pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24071 posts
You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.


how so? if we are blaming the tools....
10:13pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26412 posts
There's some fundamental differences between guns and cars you have forgotten to consider.
10:46pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3388 posts
I get your points in the previous comments, Pete. I'm not sure I agree the 'it was already an issue the Russians are just adding to it' point negates the fact that these actions have been taken and they have had an effect, which is what you seemed to be refuting? I think the information wars topic is quite an interesting one and a real challenge for our future. State propaganda or political extremes aside, it can have real impact to society as a whole, no? Take the anti-vaxxer movement for example. I totes agree the election tampering outrage is hypocritical (and sensationalised), even existing issues aside, the US have been doing this s*** to everyone else for decades.

I agree with this:

My personal view is the US is on the cutting edge of many late 20th/21st century issues: breakdown of the family, social media/fame/narcissism bug , internet's contribution to removal of real person interactions, have it now - inability to delay gratification, medication of society. There are so many "American" issues all converging on a young populace not yet equipped to handle the stress they are capable of causing.


I think it goes deeper too, I think their blend of individualism & capitalism contributes to a lot of these, and other, socioeconomic issues. Like their incarceration rates & prison problems, healthcare, non-existent work benefits, deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty, etc.

I mean, there's plenty of other developed Western countries sitting on the same 20th/21st century nexus, but they don't seem to have quite as many deep-seeded issues as the US. Most of those countries seem to have more socialistic principles built into their societies than America does.

Also agree with this:

Their obsession with nationalism is cult-like; their brainwashing with religion worse.


I think their militarism has actually gotten pretty extreme when you think about it. Gotta support the troops! No matter what.

I don't know what I'd do re: fpots question. What could you do? Are there any safe schools? I feel like if you have enough money then you don't have any problems in America, but you need a lot of money. Sandyhook absolutely blew me away. America really is a very bizarre place, I've taken it off my 'places I'd live' list.
10:47pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26413 posts

https://imgur.com/dCVaboF.jpghttps://imgur.com/6OiWH3E.jpg

Completely normal. Same may describe it as slightly erratic. Now I wonder, I've noticed trump fans seem to be the calm rational types who think things through carefully. After reading this, do you think the next time they see a brown skinned person with a tattoo that they'll think hello fellow human being or dem's one of those animals mah president was talking about?

edit: and just in case like me you at first thought someone was taking the piss because surely he wouldn't double down like that - https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/need-know-violent-animals-ms-13/
03:59am 22/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9608 posts
there are a zillion guns already out there, what would be the point?

Your response is pretty much a perfect example of why things will never improve: "Oh, but that only helps the situation from getting worse, it doesn't solve it. We'll only take a solution that will solve it completely, with no flaws at all".
07:47am 22/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39595 posts
I don't think that idea stops it getting worse, I think it actively makes it /worse/, by setting a precedent where someone that is more or less totally detached from the problem and has almost no power to stop things happening is suddenly at the apex of responsibility.

I have a whole huge post I wrote for the other gun thread when this thing last happened 16 nanoseconds ago but it's on my other PC. It's mostly a collection of reasons why I think things will never improve, now that I think about it, but it does have some ideas.
08:14am 22/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
613 posts
I would argue the point trog but you like to hand out 10 hour post limits on people you disagree with. If you have a great way of making a point, waiting 10 hours while the argument has moved about 16 miles from where you left it, and then re-injecting yourself whilst somehow keeping the original context I'm all ears.

Meanwhile fpot makes posts like this

You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.


and proceeds with impunity because he happens to follow the same fantasy ideology you do. What a sad sheltered little lefty bubble you live in. My theory is relatively confirmed that its not that lefties are bad people, its just that they don't have the intellectual courage or capacity to a) see why censorship is wrong and b) are too afraid to engage with people who disagree because they secretly know they haven't actually looked it up.
09:04am 22/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24072 posts
I have a whole huge post I wrote for the other gun thread when this thing last happened 16 nanoseconds ago but it's on my other PC.


Get OneDrive ffs
09:50am 22/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39596 posts
Get OneDrive ffs
yeh I have no idea why it's not in my Dropbox. I think it's because I write a lot of sensitive work stuff & don't like cloud-ifying it without encrypting it first so I default to keeping things locally.
01:08pm 22/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3204 posts
I get your points in the previous comments, Pete. I'm not sure I agree the 'it was already an issue the Russians are just adding to it' point negates the fact that these actions have been taken and they have had an effect, which is what you seemed to be refuting? I think the information wars topic is quite an interesting one and a real challenge for our future. State propaganda or political extremes aside, it can have real impact to society as a whole, no? Take the anti-vaxxer movement for example. I totes agree the election tampering outrage is hypocritical (and sensationalised), even existing issues p0aside, the US have been doing this s*** to everyone else for decades.


I am not disputing the Russian tried to do s***. I am disputing there was any effect worth discussing. I don't think there was for three reasons.

1 social media may have huge reach but it consistently polls terribly as a reliable news source (see pew attitudes in media series). There is no reason or at least very limited reason to suspect there is a broad effect in the information wars. to the contrary, the evidence suggests most people don't take social media seriously for political issues.

2 every example I've been shown has an alternative explanation grounded in garden-variety polarisation.

3 what would a solution that didn't trample legitimate expression look like.

Taken together there is a limited reason to accept there is an effect, much less an adequate description of what the effect is. The 3rd one is important. Really really important. Because all the social media companies run “trust and safety” policies that are f*****g useless. If we were to run off an start looking for Russian witches to censor, I'd want the evidence to pretty damn compelling. If the evidence was a mixed bag, I'd start looking more closely at the people asking for censorship.

I have no doubt Russia tried. I seriously doubt they had much success.

on a side point, I'm not sure the anti-vaxxer movement really does the work you want it to. They are a noisy but tiny minority. A quick google tells me Australian vaccination rates are generally in the 90% area and have been for ages. You can find communities with lower rates, but generally, nobody is listening to anti-vaxxers.

I might add there is an interesting meta point there with antivaxxers. Social media distorts perceptions in strange ways. Seemingly large numbers can get involved in stuff very quickly, but the numbers while they sound large can actually be pretty small when placed in their true context.

For example you might find a page on Facebook which has even hundreds of thousands of followers. Which sounds like a big number. And in some contexts it is. In the Facebook context it is close to immeasurably small.

I remember listening to a Ricky Gervais bit recently talking about how easy it is to get 100,000 signatures on a petition, and that being important because when a petition gets that many signatures it has to go before parliament.

He praises this as a positive development. But I'm less certain. My view is that if the 100,000 signatures have not come from UK residents I don't see a valid reason to chew up parliaments time with it.

My point is that pre social media 100,000 signatures was a significant number of signatures. Now it isn't and the bar for what should be considered significant should adjusted accordingly. More broadly the way in which we judge significance on hot button issues floating around social media needs to reflect this context properly.
10:05pm 22/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1006 posts
09:30pm 23/05/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2225 posts
Guess we make car dealers (or even second hand car sellers) responsible for DUI killers too.


I agree, why can cars go over 110kph?

There's some fundamental differences between guns and cars you have forgotten to consider.


Cars in the current way they are used are worse than guns, they kill way more people and contribute to obesity and other health issues.
10:58pm 24/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41086 posts
still a necessity though matey.

how else do we get to the shops?
07:29am 25/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39600 posts
fwiw I spent 4 years without a car in the US & UK and just walked or rode to the shops. Now I'm back in BNE I'm trying to only walk or ride but now I'm back to having a car and I'm still tempted to drive more often than I'd like. but shopping for two is pretty easy
Cars in the current way they are used are worse than guns, they kill way more people and contribute to obesity and other health issues.
... but yeh, the positive value of cars massively outweighs the negatives. not true of guns
09:57am 25/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9610 posts
fwiw I spent 4 years without a car in the US & UK and just walked or rode to the shops. Now I'm back in BNE I'm trying to only walk or ride but now I'm back to having a car and I'm still tempted to drive more often than I'd like. but shopping for two is pretty easy


I would drive a lot less than I do if I had someone to hold the dog while I went in to buy groceries. Also, the dog would get far more walks.
01:56pm 25/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26415 posts
Black NFL players who peacefully protest - bad, get out of the country.

White nazis who murder people - very fine people.

Another totally not fascist thing a democratically elected person said.
02:32pm 25/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39601 posts

I would drive a lot less than I do if I had someone to hold the dog while I went in to buy groceries. Also, the dog would get far more walks.
UBER FOR DOG HOLDERS PATENT PENDING

edit: holy s*** I checked Twitter after making this post and this literally just popped up as the top item in my feed: https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/24/dog-sitting-startup-rover-just-raised-155m/?utm_source=tctwreshare&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29&sr_share=twitter
03:53pm 25/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26416 posts
Also ICE Department of Health and Human Services, the totally not fascist wing of the trump administration lost just under 1500 children. And people get stopped by Border Patrols and questioned for speaking Spanish. And a new trick racists pull on people who aren't white is to threaten to call the police or ICE on them for no reason in the hope I guess that the police either kill them or ICE deport them.

All in not fascist USA with its democratically elected president.

edit: sorry got a bit blame happy with ICE there. I'm sure they're a great organisation full of very fine people.
03:54pm 25/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3205 posts
Look at fpot go.

He just feels it so deep. you can see the furrows of legitimate worry on his face. It's what drives him to post as follows:

[Facist/nazi] + [insert current news item] + [racist] - [insight of any kind]
04:51pm 25/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26417 posts
Actually it was ICE. They abducted the children and then the DHHS lost them due to ineptitude.
05:29pm 25/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3206 posts
Actually it was ICE. They abducted the children and then the DHHS lost them due to ineptitude.


He's a sensitive lad our fpot. But gee he gets very worked up and sometimes confuses things. Like in this case, he has confused "abducted" with giving unaccompanied minors refugee resettlement visas and placing them with a sponsor and then losing track of them later.

Children who show up at the border by themselves are usually apprehended by Border Patrol agents or turn themselves in to customs officers at the Department of Homeland Security. Once they are processed, they are turned over to the custody of the Department of Health and Human Services’ refugee office. The office runs more than 100 shelters around the country where it houses children and provides care until they can be turned over to a sponsor while awaiting their immigration hearings.


That is like totes the same thing as "abduction". Trap for young players that one.
06:14pm 25/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9611 posts
UBER FOR DOG HOLDERS PATENT PENDING

It's always amazed me that shopping centres don't offer both this and a secure service for bikes.

Hell, even if it was a paid service surely it would more than pay for itself in both fees and the business it brings to renters in the centre.
06:48pm 25/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41087 posts
dogs dont really need to go to shopping centres?

they should stay at home.
07:15pm 25/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9612 posts
Yes, but then people just end up driving there. I can either walk down there and take the dog for a walk, and drop in quickly to get groceries, or what ends up happening is you just drive there, because there's no reason to walk.

If I need to take the dog for a walk and only have time to do one thing, one has to miss out.
12:13pm 26/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41088 posts
i walk my dog to aldi and the bottlo regularly and just tie her up out the front. but yer, i woudlnt do that at a shopping centre. i actively avoid going to shopping centres because they are so horrible.
01:57pm 26/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9613 posts
I live in the kind of area where pets get stolen, so would never leave him unattended :(
04:44pm 26/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7863 posts
Dogs go missing all the time in Korea
03:41pm 27/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1008 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/nbn-chief-blames-gamers-for-congestion/9832596

Online gamers have been called out by the head of the National Broadband Network as a major cause of congestion on the fixed wireless network.

08:32pm 04/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5785 posts
Hah. what a joke. don't games use like next to no data?
08:41pm 04/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39604 posts
Hah. what a joke. don't games use like next to no data?
playing them, yes. downloading them, no
09:28pm 04/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5786 posts
Couldn't see that being much of a strain compared to the amount of people using Youtube or Netflix.
01:19am 05/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41095 posts
free tommy robinson! (the football thug lawbreaker)

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4852297.htm
07:25am 05/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3207 posts
Interesting the article doesn't go into what the court case was about.
07:45am 05/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39605 posts
Couldn't see that being much of a strain compared to the amount of people using Youtube or Netflix.
it depends entirely on how much youtube and how much netflix people in your area are trying to watch vs how many games they're trying to download

e.g., when a new GTA or something comes out on Steam, it will mean more bandwidth is consumed in the next few days by 'gamers'.

I generally agree that video streaming probably uses more on average - probably quite a bit more - but people need to remember the peaks for gaming traffic are huge, huge, huge, like way way more than they'd download in a normal day of streaming. Nothing on the Internet occurs in a vacuum - especially on fixed wireless, which is the tech they're talking about being affected here.

I don't know enough about wireless technology - it just seems to me like it's a bottleneck that can't be solved without hard quotas.
08:37am 05/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1009 posts

Another article today

NBN blaming 'gamers' for slow broadband contradicts its own online advice

"Believe it or not, some of the biggest online games use very little data while you're playing compared to streaming HD video or even high-fidelity audio." - NBN
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/nbn-blaming-gamers-for-slow-speeds-contradicts-own-advice/9836492


07:53pm 05/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13757 posts
Interesting the article doesn't go into what the court case was about.


^ reported for hate speech
07:58pm 05/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3208 posts
^ reported for hate speech


Well quite.

Here is a much better take on the situation. It would be easier to take the Robinson was going to sink a trial angle seriously if the Police didn't wait for 10 years and over a 1000 victims to start laying charges.

08:01pm 05/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13758 posts
Maajid Nawaz, darling of the alt-right and a nazi-sympathising stealer of babies lollipops, demonstrating internalised racism again.

Oh, and the patriarchy something something
08:16pm 05/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13759 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/nbn-chief-blames-gamers-for-congestion/9832596




seems like he back-pedalled a bit when questioned more, at least according to the quotes in that article
08:22pm 05/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3209 posts
lollipops


They always go for the wowwipops.
09:17pm 05/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1011 posts

Update

https://chaser.com.au/national/gamers-to-blame-for-indigestion-from-the-dinner-he-had-last-night-claims-nbn-chief/

The attack comes days after Bill Morrow attacked gamers for using the internet, claiming they were slowing down the network. He pleaded with users to stop using the NBN, pointing out it would be much faster if nobody used it.


07:28pm 08/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3210 posts
Gees that is some d******* language in a news report.

the attack comes days after the attackers attacked other victims of attack, while in attack formation using attack weapons.

*I'm testing something Jim*

I think I'll add something here.

If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.


Hamas have now claimed 50 of the 60 people killed that day. Islamic jihad at least another 3. so let's do some "maths".

When performing the "indiscriminate wounding" of thousands the IDF managed to have a mathematically minimum possible ( 53/60*100= 88.3%) kill rate of confirmed terrorists while shooting into a crowd of 50K people.

For pointing out fpot is a complete f*****g ignoramus on this issue this I enjoy a one-hour post limit. My posts were purposely structured to demonstrate there is absolutely no difference between the so-called far right and garden-variety left-wing ideologues. In a sense, I suppose I did it too well. Hysterically fpot thinks he is an individual of moral fibre.

I point out further now, that the willingness to accuse the IDF of the most heinous of crimes (people literally make comparisons with Nuremberg on the basis of this mental diarrhoea *ie compare Jews to nazis*) *without any evidence of any kind* smacks of anti-Semitism. The kind now rampant in UK Labor and in the left wing generally.

I trust your moderation decision is proving comfortable with you mr moderator. You managed to side with the least informed most racist side of a debate. truly you've covered yourself in glory. I mean I wouldn't want to drown a forum with 3 posts a week in posts or anything.

I look forward to the epic takedown that is no doubt coming for comments like this:

I just saw your edit on the first dumb video. It's obvious you get very excited when a b**** gets told what's what. Completely normal behaviour you seem very well adjusted.


That's a totally reasonable take on what slaps posted. it's got a clear political leaning. that's probably a coincidence with no post limits and no nukes. the irony is if I posted tubgirl I'd be the bad guy.
09:05pm 09/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13760 posts
Surely it gets a pass for obvious satire?
09:24pm 09/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1012 posts
The Chaser? All satire. https://chaser.com.au/
09:50pm 10/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26425 posts
Today the President of the United States, days after insulting and alienating the US's closest allies, met and shook hands with a brutal mass murderer and promised to be nicer to him in the future for... reasons. How do we know Kim isn't using the photos and event to go back to the DPRK and gather more adulation from his people by showing them and putting his own spin on it? trump gets played as a fool by a politically uninitiated porn star. Imagine what a true pro like Kim or Putin could do to him. No need to imagine - we're witnessing it.

Going back to the G7 Summit. Usually I can read certain twitter accounts and get some sort of semi-coherent narrative explaining trump's actions. They'll bring up something Obama or Clinton or whoever did years ago that bears some sort of superficial resemblance to it and say whatabout. Trump's childish conduct, his bizarre support of Russia that only makes sense if you assume something is true was unprecedented by any post cold war leader. Perhaps even before but my memory doesn't go back that far and I can't be bothered checking.
08:20pm 12/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24075 posts
The USA has tougher sanctions on both Russia and North Korea under Trump then under any President before. But Trump is still a bumbling Putin puppet.

Trump leaves the door open for these recalcitrants to return to the global arena if they can act like normal countries. In the meantime the crushing sanctions continue. Sounds solid to me.

I am also glad Trump gave a ton of stick to these G7 fakes who talk about liberalising trade all the while each country supports tarrifs and subsidies (as does the US). They almost s*** the bed when Trump off the cuff suggested that all G7 countries should just remove all their tarrifs.

This is the greatest show on earth, and seeing all these conventional establishment politicians appear bamboozled is exhilarating. I'm waiting for the world to blow up, it's gonna happen pretty shortly, I saw it is on MSNBC. Trump will implode soon. You just have to believe.

http://novonerd.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Reaction-pic-Crying-meme.jpg
09:28pm 12/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3211 posts
Today fpot read Vox and it told him that Trump was bad.

Then he looked at some Twitter feeds of "the otherside" which support his childishly simple world view.

Then some school age activists tweeted a sick burn of drumph and fpot felt really right on.
09:35pm 12/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5788 posts
Credit where credit is due, +1 to Trump for getting Kim to the negotiating table and securing an agreement. I doubt it would have happened with your run of the mill U.S President, but who knows.
04:11am 13/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
615 posts
Today fpot read Vox and it told him that Trump was bad.


fpot can read?
09:00am 13/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26426 posts
Whoa dude with piercing wit like that you'll find yourself respected and admired by the alt-right conspiracy crowd in this thread in no time. To others you'll be nothing more than an unshaken piss droplet rolling down their pant leg. Still, that's probably an improvement over how your peers see you.

Credit where credit is due, +1 to Trump for getting Kim to the negotiating table and securing an agreement.
And that agreement is?

I really don't see how awful meeting and shaking hands with hyper awful can ever be a good thing.
08:02pm 13/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3212 posts
Whoa dude with piercing wit like that you'll find yourself respected and admired by the alt-right conspiracy crowd in this thread in no time.


fpot has shown his powers of reason. He deeply understands you see. Alt-right conspiracy crowd. Shame really if he had have thrown in nazi or racist I'd have had bingo.

And that agreement is?


Freely available for download, but guess who hasn't read it.
10:30pm 13/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5789 posts

And that agreement is?

I really don't see how awful meeting and shaking hands with hyper awful can ever be a good thing.


It 's available on the net, but it might just work for reducing the tension on the Korean peninsula and increasing prosperity for North Korea. Putting aside how s***** the Presidency & Kim's regime is. Sanders made an interesting comment that Trump is most comfortable with dealing with authoritarian leaders yet struggles with diplomacy of democratic nations heh
09:37am 14/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26427 posts
That's because he's desperate for respect amongst his peers but unable to get it because he's you know, s***. Instead he goes to the only place he can get it - dictators who will do or say anything to get a handshake with him so they can go back to their people and show them that they've now been anointed by the POTUS.
10:30am 14/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7867 posts
C**** respect other C**** and A*******s.

Whereas most C**** see other weak pricks as pussies.
05:06pm 14/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41106 posts
one nation seems to be going well! (again)
06:48pm 14/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3213 posts
That's because he's desperate for respect amongst his peers but unable to get it because he's you know, s***. Instead he goes to the only place he can get it - dictators who will do or say anything to get a handshake with him so they can go back to their people and show them that they've now been anointed by the POTUS.


Obama Cuba

Obama Iran

Obama Turkey

Obama Palestinian Authority

Obama Saudi Arabia

That's because he's desperate for respect amongst his peers but unable to get it because he's you know, s***.


That feeling when you think you have deep psychological insight but actually just project.
07:01pm 14/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26430 posts
I am pretty shocked that everything trump falsely accused the Hillary and co of were things that he was doing. Meanwhile children continue to be abducted at the border by ICE and then disappeared into the system. I guess it's not all bad though, it's not like trump is praising mass murderers for murdering people or anything.
06:47am 15/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3214 posts
Fpot sure does get worked up at things he reads. Though strangely he has never read the primary sources.

He really cares about the children which is why he was so vocal before two weeks ago about ICE working according to the law which has been in place for about 10 years now.

Oh right.

Vox explained to him that Trump was really bad and so he's getting upset.

So how about those democrats hey. A 15 point lead is now a 3 point lead and the midterms are still months away.

Trump is on track to retain a supermajority. The TDS in November is going to be rich and creamy
07:06am 15/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24076 posts
Dems are a complete joke. I heard one Dem Congressman yesterday say that not all MS13 gang members are bad guys. lul

Imagine a pollie over here saying that not all outlaw bikie gang members are bad guys. But Dems have the race card to play.

American politics is f*****g awesome. Makes Aussie politics look like the Sheffield Shield.

And when Trump collects his Nobel peace Prize oh boy, what a time to be alive!
11:02am 15/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26431 posts
yeah yeah it's the dems who are a complete joke. When you first started having your lolbertarian tingles did you ever think you'd be defending a literal fascist who praises murderers and disappears children escaping from violence? You've certainly come a long way haven't you.
04:17pm 15/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3215 posts
yeah yeah it's the dems who are a complete joke.


The polls don't lie.

You're defending a fascist infi. Fpot knows what this word means.

Other words fpot definitely understands include racist, chattel, disappear, abduct, peaceful protest and concentration camp.

There are others too. He's better than the OED.
06:12pm 15/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41109 posts
Imagine a pollie over here saying that not all outlaw bikie gang members are bad guys


https://www.qt.com.au/news/mp-to-join-biker-rally-on-moped/2092014/
06:20pm 15/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1016 posts
Why are you so concerned about Trump fpot? Can you get past the main stream media?


waaaaaaaahhhhhh
06:32pm 15/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41110 posts
ooooooh
06:54pm 15/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24077 posts
ooooooh


Spook, Ulysses bike club are a charity club. Lmao what a nitwit.
09:13pm 15/06/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3392 posts
12:09am 16/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3216 posts
This is the kind secretary of defence the "I definately understand the word" fascist appoints.
Sanders made an interesting comment that Trump is most comfortable with dealing with authoritarian leaders yet struggles with diplomacy of democratic nations heh


oh, a lesson in being comfortable with authoritarian leaders from Bernie "Chavez gives us a new way of thinking about capitalism" Sanders. I wonder what Sanders said about mao in the in 60's.
12:37am 16/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7868 posts
Do you want know moar?

An analysis of Starship Troopers. Topics include war, dehumanization, propaganda, eugenics and more.


11:20am 16/06/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4647 posts
American politics is f*****g awesome.

it certainly inspires awe
11:29am 16/06/18 Permalink
taggs
6557 posts
Nmag can you stop? You're the fpot of the right.
09:19pm 16/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26435 posts
You don't wanna be the fpot of the right mate. Then you'll do things like point out that the President of the United States, who isn't a fascist and was democratically elected, is still abducting children from their parents and placing them in concentration camps and will only stop if his border wall is funded. This is normal or maybe slightly erratic behaviour from a man who praises mass murderers for being tough and is not at all concerning. It actually kind of reminds me when people first started mentioning that trump may be a fascist and people would say things like... well at least he isn't putting people into camps. Perhaps certain members of this forum would like to update that with an at least he isn't doing x and we can see how long it is before he does that thing.
12:09pm 19/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26436 posts
lol space force
12:36pm 19/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
616 posts
a) It is illegal for the US government to detain a child for longer than 20 days, therefore when their criminal parents accompany them and it takes longer than 20 days for processing, they must be removed into detention centres. Trump is telling Congress to write legislation addressing this as it's a result of precedent from a 1997 case. It has nothing to do with the Trump administration and everything to do with an incompetent Congress.

b) Obama also caged up kids lol so I sincerely hope you were frothing in 2014 about the exact issue. But you weren't, you just like to jump on the next leftie anti-Trump bandwagon issue and ride it into complete and utter nonsensical hilarity.
12:50pm 19/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26437 posts
lol criminal parents, it's congress' fault and b..b..b..bbut Obama. Pretty much the complete pissbaby package aren't you?
01:00pm 19/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3217 posts
You don't wanna be the fpot of the right mate. Then you'll do things like point out that the President of the United States, who isn't a fascist and was democratically elected, is still abducting children from their parents and placing them in concentration camps and will only stop if his border wall is funded. This is normal or maybe slightly erratic behaviour from a man who praises mass murderers for being tough and is not at all concerning. It actually kind of reminds me when people first started mentioning that trump may be a fascist and people would say things like... well at least he isn't putting people into camps. Perhaps certain members of this forum would like to update that with an at least he isn't doing x and we can see how long it is before he does that thing.


Literally noone thought the contents of that post were coming.

I refer to my list of words fpot definitely understands. He missed racist and disappear. But he was just trying to get the three points today mate, taking it one match at a time.

I rate it 7/10 sandy vages.

lol criminal parents, it's congress' fault and b..b..b..bbut Obama. Pretty much the complete pissbaby package aren't you?


Pissbaby that's a good one. Couldn't possibly be applied to the the above quoted passage.

But the thing is if all he's got is fpots rank hypocrisy, it's a pretty good thing to have.

Remember when fpot gave a detailed breakdown of the legal situation on border enforcement in the southern United States? Me neither. I do remember him complaining about Trump on this issue the second it hit the news outlets he likes, but never once before that.

That's political engagement.
02:25pm 19/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24078 posts
Don't want to run into trouble with the immigration officials? Don't enter the country ILLEGALLY. get rid of them by all means necessary.

Just like our protector, Mr Dutton, does for Australia. God Bless him and his family.
02:33pm 19/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26438 posts
Don't want to run into trouble with the immigration officials? Don't enter the country ILLEGALLY. get rid of them by all means necessary.
Good little doggy. Your recital proves that you can at the very least memorise something and then repeat it. If only repetition worked for the truth as well as it does for lies.
02:52pm 19/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3218 posts
Good little doggy. Your recital proves that you can at the very least memorise something and then repeat it. If only repetition worked for the truth as well as it does for lies.


By comparison to the stunning examples of independent, deeply informed, clear thinking involved in his posts.

Fpot the deep thinker, doesn't simply repeat opinions from central opinions inc. he painstakingly types them out verbatim.

That's why he's better than you infi.
03:33pm 19/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24079 posts
It's not repetition fpot. it's actually this thing call THE LAW. But think of the children! The law applies to them too.
03:40pm 19/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26439 posts
Yes THE LAW. As opposed to the law which sometimes includes things that you whine about because it makes your life slightly less luxuriously set to impossible to fail mode. Big government you call it. All those needless regulations that surely aren't the product of years of precedence and trial and error but instead designed to persecute the truly aggrieved one here, you.

We then of course have THE LAW which has endless authority to f*** with whoever it wants at whatever cost. As long as that person is in an infi approved category such as homosexuals, asylum seekers, the poor, drug addicts, non-whites that is. Then the government can't possibly be big enough. Can't possibly spend enough money. As long as those people suffer infi is happy.
03:49pm 19/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41112 posts
i wonder if we can get to 10000 posts of pointless bickering!
05:42pm 19/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1018 posts

ABC news today

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-19/nsw-budget-2018-winners-and-losers/9879148

The NSW Government said its 2018 budget is "for everyone" — but is it really? The ABC had broken down the numbers and cut through the spin to give you a list of who comes out on top and who misses out.


They give public sector the "loser" badge, and support their claim with:

The public sector wage cap is steady at 2.5 per cent, and it has not been reviewed since 2011. This is slightly above private sector growth, and above other states. The Treasurer did claim the state was a "wage leader", but with a huge $3.9 billion surplus, the introduction of the $3 billion NSW Generations Fund and the rising cost of living pressures, NSW Government workers may have a legitimate "Jerry Maguire" argument for the Treasurer: "Show me the money".


...

public sector wage cap is steady at 2.5 per cent
This is slightly above private sector growth, and above other states.


Have ABC assigned "loser" because public sector employees did not get as much as they feel entitled too?

It's "our ABC". The public funded mouth piece of unions, public servants, and left wing minorities masquerading as non-biased news.
06:30pm 19/06/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21541 posts
Haha holy f*** a 'space force'

He has accelerated towards destination crazy town
06:52pm 19/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3219 posts

We then of course have THE LAW which has endless authority to f*** with whoever it wants at whatever cost. As long as that person is in an infi approved category such as homosexuals, asylum seekers, the poor, drug addicts, non-whites that is. Then the government can't possibly be big enough. Can't possibly spend enough money. As long as those people suffer infi is happy.


Infi is .... Wait for it

Wait for it....

Racist.

The actual legal situation doesn't need to be addressed when you can rely on calling people racist.

The retarded analogy fpot was trying to make is that because infi doesn't like some laws he is hypocritical for accepting the law as it is on the books is being enforced.

Except there is a yawing canyon between not liking a law and expecting it shouldn't be enforced.

If infi just didn't pay tax and complained that the ATO was being mean when they caught up with him it would be analogous.

Is there some good reason this
All those needless regulations that surely aren't the product of years of precedence and trial and error but instead designed to persecute the truly aggrieved one here, you.


Doesn't apply with exactly the same force to the laws fpot doesn't like?

It's not like immigration law was chucked together in 20 minutes.
07:05pm 19/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7869 posts
08:54pm 19/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
617 posts
If CNN reported instead how disgraceful it was that children were being detained by ICE for months with their parents as opposed to them being removed and placed in detention he'd whinge about that too. It's an unfortunate case of complete ignorance coupled with brain dead leftwing tribalism that produces bizzaro adults like fpot.
08:48am 20/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24080 posts
All you gotta do is cry and the law need not apply.
11:04am 20/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1019 posts
No need for logic when an issue can be sprinkled with self righteous illogical intent.
04:25pm 20/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26440 posts
If CNN reported instead how disgraceful it was that children were being detained by ICE for months with their parents as opposed to them being removed and placed in detention he'd whinge about that too.
Damn right I would. See us non-fascists don't like to see people imprisoned who haven't committed crimes. I know that must be hard for you guys to understand but if you work really hard at it you might be able to figure it out.

See say I was you, a trump supporter trying to pretend I am something more than a reprehensible s*** pile that has somehow gained the ability to type. I'd be saying things like well tough immigration laws are good for border security, but surely a system can be devised where the parents can at least stay with their children, or know their whereabouts, or if they're dead or alive. I'd be saying things like why once these illegals have been deported why can't their children go with them, instead of being disappeared into the system?

Instead you're all in. You're literally advocating for internment camps for children where they're held hostage until trump can build his ridiculous wall which is a giant waste of f*****g money in its own right. To get to this stage you must live in an environment where nothing you do or say is ever criticised or scrutinised. I'm morbidly curious to know exactly what that environment is and just how badly you f***ed up to get there.

Oh and the US has left the UN Human Rights Council. Another triumph for the alt-right! Because who needs human rights when we have freedom of speech, giving us the right to proudly proclaim ourselves as nazis with zero repercussions.
06:52pm 20/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3220 posts
See say I was you, a trump supporter trying to pretend I am something more than a reprehensible s*** pile that has somehow gained the ability to type. I'd be saying things like well tough immigration laws are good for border security, but surely a system can be devised where the parents can at least stay with their children, or know their whereabouts, or if they're dead or alive. I'd be saying things like why once these illegals have been deported why can't their children go with them, instead of being disappeared into the system?


Bingo!

Damn right I would. See us non-fascists don't like to see people imprisoned who haven't committed crimes. I know that must be hard for you guys to understand but if you work really hard at it you might be able to figure it out.


Literally only happening because they are being held awaiting trial. See this is what happens when you have reading difficulties.

You're literally advocating for internment camps for children where they're held hostage until trump can build his ridiculous wall which is a giant waste of f*****g money in its own right. To get to this stage you must live in an environment where nothing you do or say is ever criticised or scrutinised.


No he isn't?

Oh and the US has left the UN Human Rights Council. Another triumph for the alt-right! Because who needs human rights when we have freedom of speech, giving us the right to proudly proclaim ourselves as nazis with zero repercussions.


Chaired by saudi arabia, and has venezuela (who actually run political gulags) on it. but wait it gets better, who needs human rights when we have freedom of speech (a human right enshrined in the universal declaration of human rights and in the ICCPR).

we can add human rights to the things fpot doesn't understand.
08:43pm 20/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
618 posts
You're literally advocating for internment camps for children where they're held hostage


This is why you shouldn't ever bother explaining anything political with the left. Not only have I not even advocated for anything regarding immigration on this thread, fpot has also decided this non-advocation is akin to wanting internment camps swastika swastika Auschwitz gas chamber etc. And then he tops of the leftwing stereotype known for completely missing the point by repeatedly yelling alt-right. lolemoji lolemoji lolemoji
08:24am 21/06/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9614 posts
I'd actually like to know more about Trumps claim that this law has been in place for 60 years and they're only now working to get it changed. I know that Clinton actually introduced a whole heap of laws that made the situation worse, but they were never actually enforced.

The reality is both the extreme left and extreme right can be as bats*** crazy as each other.
10:26am 21/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39612 posts
I'd actually like to know more about Trumps claim that this law has been in place for 60 years and they're only now working to get it changed
Given almost everything else everyone in the administration has said about this issue has been a bald-faced lie, what do you reckon the chances are that was the one nugget of truth
04:15pm 21/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24081 posts
Tucker Carlson the other night conveniently packaged together all the footage of democrats saying how bad illegal immigration is and how illegals should all be deported. Schumer, Hillary, Pelosi, Clinton, Obama. What a bunch of hypocrites.

I sent Peter Dutton a thank you card and a $2 scratchy this week. Our immigration system is the world's envy.
04:20pm 21/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39613 posts
Tucker Carlson the other night conveniently packaged together all the footage of democrats saying how bad illegal immigration is and how illegals should all be deported. Schumer, Hillary, Pelosi, Clinton, Obama. What a bunch of hypocrites.
This is a strawman. It's not the topic being discussed anywhere.
04:22pm 21/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24082 posts
This is a strawman. It's not the topic being discussed anywhere.


They are discussing their support of the legislation which you state you are not sure exists.
04:29pm 21/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39614 posts
noone doubts there is legislation about immigration. that's why it's a strawman.
04:44pm 21/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39615 posts
watching the mental gymnastics of people trying desperately to avoid having to say 'separating children from their parents is bad' until Dear Leader does has been entertaining though, in a grim kind of way
04:50pm 21/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3221 posts
This is a strawman. It's not the topic being discussed anywhere.


Ahem.

It's not a strawman. It is the topic being discussed. To deport illegal immigrants you need to arrest them.

If they have children, the law requires that US authorities separate the children while the parents are detained awaiting trial/deportation.

It is not possible to enforce the law and deport illegal immigrants in the US without separating children from parents. That's why DACA existed. That's why catch and release existed.

It follows, that if you believe illegals should be deported you are necessarily accepting child separation unless you change the law. The two issues are inextricably linked.

Not a single one of those named democrats did change the law, despite the fact the law has been in the books in its current form for the entire Obama administration. They could've. They didn't.

Therefore hypocrisy.

watching the mental gymnastics of people trying desperately to avoid having to say 'separating children from their parents is bad' until Dear Leader does has been entertaining though, in a grim kind of way


Not as fun as watching people work themselves into a thick creamy lather over an issue that has remained unchanged for over a decade, because we must #resist.
05:02pm 21/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24083 posts
I am fine with the most extreme response. i disagree with trump stopping the separations. the parents are selfish and irresponsible for putting their children at risk.
05:10pm 21/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1020 posts
Export the lot. Keep them together.
05:53pm 21/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26441 posts
I am fine with the most extreme response. i disagree with trump stopping the separations. the parents are selfish and irresponsible for putting their children at risk.
If you were living during the times of Nazi Germany you would be one of the people mass murdering people. I really want to stress the lack of hyperbole or exaggeration in what I just said. You are a sick demented f*** and there is no limit to what your need to see people suffering would make you do. You'd be throwing the Zyklon B down the grate and laughing with your brethren as the pyramid of bodies piles up against the door. I wish really profound suffering upon you.
07:40pm 21/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3222 posts
If you were living during the times of Nazi Germany you would be one of the people mass murdering people. I really want to stress the lack of hyperbole or exaggeration in what I just said.


fpot found a nazi.

again.

so with all this watching of mental gymnastics, trog darling, do you think he stuck the landing? Or is this sandy vagina rabid frothing?

fpot really has tried to be reasonable. he has carefully explained the legal and economic drivers on the situation. and infi has obtusely refused to listen to a carefully set out and well-referenced argument.

Well not quite. fpot got angry when he was dog-whistled, and like a good little doggy, he is dutifully expressing the authorised opinion.

Fpot has never shown any indication he has even the slightest understanding of an issue. He just jumps to 'you're a nazi'. He thinks hate speech is super important and then spouts something like this:
You'd be throwing the Zyklon B down the grate and laughing with your brethren as the pyramid of bodies piles up against the door. I wish really profound suffering upon you.


But its never hate speech when you're fpot.

fpot is a profoundly stupid and shallow individual.
07:57pm 21/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5790 posts
Yeah going by Infi's lack of empathy you have to wonder.

Those parents are so selfish for putting their children at risk by attempting to give them a better life & escape the reign of murderous cartels.
01:30am 22/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3223 posts
Yeah going by Infi's lack of empathy you have to wonder.


Woops there's no show with out retard punch.

You have to wonder if infi would joyfully mass murder people?

Vash and fpot have a deep insight into people's psychology. They also like to wank each other off to really gone there insights about people.

The best part about it is you f*****g morons think you're resisting instead of being dog whistled.
06:48am 22/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3224 posts
ACLU finds systematic abuse of children in detention between 2009 and 2014.

I look forward to people who don't do mental gymnastics explaining how they never said s*** for the better part of a decade, but now they care.

The hard truth is it was Obama and so you didn't care.

You aren't brave or morally right now if you didn't speak then. You're an idiotic hypocrite.

Here is a taste of Obama immigration policy


Punched a child’s head three times
Kicked a child in the ribs
Used a stun gun on a boy, causing him to fall to the ground, shaking, with his eyes rolling back in his head
Ran over a 17-year-old with a patrol vehicle and then punched him several times
Verbally abused detained children, calling them dogs and “other ugly things”
Denied detained children permission to stand or move freely for days and threatened children who stood up with transfer to solitary confinement in a small, freezing room
Denied a pregnant minor medical attention when she reported pain, which preceded a stillbirth
Subjected a 16-year-old girl to a search in which they “forcefully spread her legs and touched her private parts so hard that she screamed”
Left a 4-pound premature baby and her minor mother in an overcrowded and dirty cell full of sick people, against medical advice
Threw out a child’s birth certificate and threatened him with sexual abuse by an adult male detainee.


Yous didn't say s***.
08:00am 22/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
619 posts
If you were living during the times of Nazi Germany you would be one of the people mass murdering people. I really want to stress the lack of hyperbole or exaggeration in what I just said. You are a sick demented f*** and there is no limit to what your need to see people suffering would make you do. You'd be throwing the Zyklon B down the grate and laughing with your brethren as the pyramid of bodies piles up against the door. I wish really profound suffering upon you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM
08:05am 22/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39616 posts
wtf @ melananaiaiana ? these people are just trash
09:44am 22/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3225 posts
wtf @ melananaiaiana ? these people are just trash


Ooooh it's like a Pavlovian Pomeranian. Yap yap yap.
10:22am 22/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26442 posts
wtf @ melananaiaiana ? these people are just trash
Extraordinary isn't it? I am holding out hope that she isn't a terrible person and she's doing it just so she can avoid another black eye.
10:44am 22/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3226 posts
I am holding out hope that she isn't a terrible person and she's doing it just so she can avoid another black eye.


And alternatively wanking to the idea.
11:49am 22/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13761 posts
I am fine with the most extreme response. i disagree with trump stopping the separations. the parents are selfish and irresponsible for putting their children at risk.


ok, but what are the transgressions of their children?
Also, is that why the law exists - as a punitive measure for selfish/irresponsible parents?
12:02pm 22/06/18 Permalink
Jim
13762 posts
If you were living during the times of Nazi Germany you would be one of the people mass murdering people. I really want to stress the lack of hyperbole or exaggeration in what I just said.


I had to re-read the second sentence because the first really looks like hyperbole. Can you show how it isn't? To me there seems a pretty big leap between someone who makes comments from time to time that seem a bit lacking in empathy, and someone who actively participated in the murder of large numbers of people
12:09pm 22/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26443 posts
Because infi over many years and many posts has demonstrated that he is all these things -

- incredibly gullible
- derives satisfaction from the suffering of people in the categories I mentioned a few posts ago
- believes without question the words of the people who are conducting this cruelty - Dutton here and trump over there
- is a white supremacist
- is a liar

Stick him in an environment where oversight is taken away and he is given carte blanche by his superiors to do whatever he wants and he will. All you'd need to do is to tell him that it's for the preservation of the country, or western culture or any weak ass nationalistic bulls***. "Savage treatment is all savages understand" were his words when describing the detainees at Gitmo. He lied about that for months and he'll lie about it again.

The actions of Nazi Germany were extraordinary and will probably never be repeated again or at least I hope not. What was ordinary were the circumstances leading up to it and the people who conducted it. At first anyway.

These people are animals infesting our country are genocidal words and infi believes it all. Once someone is able to fool themselves into thinking this way is good and proper it endlessly expands their own horizons on their capability for inflicting horror.
12:37pm 22/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3227 posts
ok, but what are the transgressions of their children?
Also, is that why the law exists - as a punitive measure for selfish/irresponsible parents?


The law exists for the welfare of the child. This is the express reasoning in the flores decision.

The reasoning goes that children can't be detained in a "jail" regardless of what the parents have done.

Flores requires that you either let the whole family go, which has been resulting in making it virtually impossible to enforce the law, which I might add probably puts it on shakey constitutional ground, or you separate the family and prosecute parents.

The constitutional issue is raised because flores relies on executive discretion in law enforcement, but that discretion is not unlimited, any use of discretion which amounts to a systematic refusal to enforce the laws Congress has written will be overruled in court. That's what happened to DAPA.

Flores exists literally because family detention was being used as a deterrent method.

Any analysis that does not deal with the perverse incentive that creates to bring children with you to cross the border is willfully ignorant.

Heh fpot unlocks level 99 retardation.
01:49pm 22/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7870 posts
fpot = Nazi Hunter (level eleventy bajillion)
01:54pm 23/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3228 posts
Yes, and he, like all nazi hunters, combines it with a profound ignorance of how the nazi's came to power.

nazis separated children at Auschwitz is just as intelligent as pointing out nazis built roads.

Meanwhile, in a lesson that definitely won't be learned. Time Magazine issue a pretty f*****g major correction about their most recent cover. the crying girl was at no time separated from her mother. Her mother who was not fleeing violence and just trying to find better employment and was deported from the US in 2013 (meaning this crossing was a felony) *and* took the child without telling the father or the rest of the family, meaning she plausibly kidnapped the child and paid people smugglers to get her to the border.

In short, the exact f*****g reason you can't let children straight across the border. It creates the situation you are trying to avoid.

but instead of dealing with the perverse incentive, it's much easier to flick that bean to the outrage machine. We can all pat ourselves on the back that we are super emotionally connected when we say separating children from parents is bad mkay. Everyone who disagrees with me would definitely kill jews.

just to add a bit more fuel.

Update: Time is standing by its cover. Editor-in-chief Edward Felsenthal says in a statement: “The June 12 photograph of the 2-year-old Honduran girl became the most visible symbol of the ongoing immigration debate in America for a reason: Under the policy enforced by the administration, prior to its reversal this week, those who crossed the border illegally were criminally prosecuted, which in turn resulted in the separation of children and parents. Our cover and our reporting capture the stakes of this moment.


It's ok to exploit a child crying if it serves the narrative; it was true in spirit (the fire and fury defence, our baseless crude caricature *feels* right). Mr Felsenthal should be ashamed and should lose his job. But he won't. Now anyone who'd like to discuss Russian bots, might want to put a really f*****g good reason forward why this isn't the actual problem. pretty easy I think to draw a straight line from that to dog whistle joe above feeling like people who disagree with him are mass murders in waiting.
02:17pm 23/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24084 posts
that time magazine cover is an epic troll. they are now up there with buzzfeed and cnbc. i never thought time magazine aspired to compete for fake news status. lulzy

a doctored photo depicts the current situatiuon? hah! imagine a respected journalist institution being turned into a joke instantly in an effort to stay woke. TDS strikes again.

fake news, girl never separated from mother, actually kidnapped from father by mother

ok, but what are the transgressions of their children?
Also, is that why the law exists - as a punitive measure for selfish/irresponsible parents?


great question! the security of a country's border is paramount over everything else. once coyotes (people smugglers) dictate who gets to enter the country then a sovereign nation has lost control. 8/10 women smuggled across the border are raped. this is unacceptable and must be deterred with the harshest penalties.

just as peter dutton has established, the strong deterrent detention stops the pull factor. the US illegal child entrants reside in very similar surrounds as Australian child immigration detainees. clean, safe and fed. it was good enough for Obama but now it's a problem because?

If the parents are going to jail then the children will need to be placed in care with a family member back in their home country so they will remain separated. What happens when a mother enters prison pregnant?

It's most likely Trump flipped on the child separation due to one very influential person.... Can you guess?

wow fpot i go away from the forum for 2 days and you lose your mind. this is like the shining.
03:00pm 23/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3229 posts
a doctored photo depicts the current situatiuon?

It kind of does represent Time's current situation.
03:30pm 23/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26445 posts
Thanks for demonstrating in one clean post that all of these things

incredibly gullible
- derives satisfaction from the suffering of people in the categories I mentioned a few posts ago
- believes without question the words of the people who are conducting this cruelty - Dutton here and trump over there
- is a white supremacist
- is a liar


are true.
04:17pm 23/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3230 posts
If you just stick your fingers in your ears, stamp your feet and scream racist it has to be true.

I reckon fpot is really really concerned about the children. wants to take part in children's "protests". he's really passionate about children. he really likes those 80's Michael Jackson music videos with children in them.

nazi Germany.

white supremacist.

the holocaust.

I know how to politics.
04:31pm 23/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1021 posts
When emotion overrides the brain.
05:46pm 23/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3231 posts
well quite.
for example this comment:
believes without question the words of the people who are conducting this cruelty - Dutton here and trump over there

fails to recognise the radically different situations and the fact that Dutton and Trump are being lambasted for pursuing diametrically opposed policies.

Dutton is locking children up, Trump is not.

But that doesn't matter, nothing is complex, there are no hard choices in immigration. there are just racists who disagree with you. sorry nazis in waiting who'd definitely kill people if no one was watching.
06:18pm 23/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26448 posts
mmm directly into my veins please. Goes very well with that Homeland Security person being heckled in the restaurant. The more this sort of thing happens the better. The only way these cretinous f**** will learn is if they start to become personally affected by their actions.
06:37am 24/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3232 posts
The more this sort of thing happens the better. The only way these cretinous f**** will learn is if they start to become personally affected by their actions.


See fpot is so smart that he thinks this kind of petty publicity is amazing. Like a BuzzFeed article where the restaurant owner has a perfect response to Trump.

He's so smart he hasn't noticed that this whole affair hasn't hurt Trumps polling or the Republican party's polling.

People want something done about the illegal immigration at the border and they understand just refusing to enforce the law because a child happens to be present causes the child to be there.

But he understands the word "cretinous". That's why he lives for the next ten reasons Huckabee Sanders is a hose beast article. I'm sure shell be able to find comfort eating the private chefs menu at the Whitehouse untill 2024. Because it's exactly this kind of idiotic s*** that gets fpot so wet that'll make it happen.
08:25am 24/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39620 posts
mmm directly into my veins please. Goes very well with that Homeland Security person being heckled in the restaurant. The more this sort of thing happens the better. The only way these cretinous f**** will learn is if they start to become personally affected by their actions.
I disagree. I think it will turn into [even more of] a race to the bottom, as evidenced by the totally predictable behaviour of Sanders as a result. The business is now in the cross-hairs of rabid ideologues, possibly dangerous people. At the risk of slippery sloping, I can't imagine anything more destructive to whatever slim hopes the US have of returning to a rational society than splitting their eating and drinking establishments along party lines so their increasingly aristocratic politicians feel like they have a safe space to eat.
01:03pm 24/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3233 posts
I disagree. I think it will turn into [even more of] a race to the bottom, as evidenced by the totally predictable behaviour of Sanders as a result. The business is now in the cross-hairs of rabid ideologues, possibly dangerous people. At the risk of slippery sloping, I can't imagine anything more destructive to whatever slim hopes the US have of returning to a rational society than splitting their eating and drinking establishments along party lines so their increasingly aristocratic politicians feel like they have a safe space to eat.


Classic Nazi talk. anyone who thinks that a bunch of narcissist utterly ineffective protestors harassing the secretary of the DHS at every opportunity isn't like totally justified is obviously a Nazi sympathizer.
02:12pm 24/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26450 posts
heh yeah you're probably right. Just seeing this scum face consequences, any consequences, for their actions excites a certain part of my brain. Just need to be a little patient I guess and wait a couple more years.
03:57pm 24/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24086 posts
So if you are associated with the country's leader you get banned from attending businesses without retaliation from the leader? Definitely sounds like Nazi Germany, a very slippery slope. The business owners are pussy hat wearing imbeciles. They will no doubt thrive in DC.
12:06pm 25/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26453 posts
wah wah
12:42pm 25/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
620 posts
You might have 1% of 1% of a point in an alternate universe fpot but you're unfortunately selectively outraged so your credibility is shot.
03:29pm 25/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1022 posts

Why doesn't US take over Mexico?

Just need all the way down to this narrow bit:

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@17.1562405,-94.7818425,9z

Sell off the remaining eastern bit to the highest suitable bidder.

Then build a massive wall, and put a few hundred navy ships to patrol.

or, go all the way to Panama City:

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@8.6292033,-78.8198878,8z

It's not like they don't have the war-appetite to do something like that.

The nazi references are so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh. How far can TDS go?

Identify a common enemy, foster hatred, bond group. Do you have a figurehead to apply hatred fpot? Hanson, Trump Dutton. I count three people you likely 'hate'.

The is no individual like that, that I hate. I dislike supporting lazy people. I don't actually hate any particular Greens leader.

I believe your hatred is misplaced, and that hatred does not help. Emotion fogs the mind. Seek Jesus, and/or professional help. Maybe a magic crystal has the power to help you?

Anger won't help.


06:01pm 25/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3234 posts
So if you are associated with the country's leader you get banned from attending businesses without retaliation from the leader? Definitely sounds like Nazi Germany, a very slippery slope. The business owners are pussy hat wearing imbeciles. They will no doubt thrive in DC.
wah wah


I wonder what fpots opinion of the masterpiece cakes decision was?

He's a bit slow, so he probably doesn't know how far down the slippery slope he is.
06:19pm 25/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5791 posts
Why doesn't US take over Mexico? Just need all the way down to this narrow bit:
Seek Jesus, and/or professional help


You might need to take your own advice there lil fella.
06:20pm 25/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26454 posts
Not long now till his alt account will be activated in this thread.
06:35pm 25/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7871 posts
The nazi references are so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh.


https://s22.postimg.cc/p4vlsta2p/kampf.jpg
06:51pm 25/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26455 posts
I'd struggle to argue with that too.
07:04pm 25/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3235 posts
I struggle to argue.


Fixed
07:23pm 25/06/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39621 posts
So if you are associated with the country's leader you get banned from attending businesses without retaliation from the leader?


Serious question time though:

1) how many Republicans and/or libertarians are standing up saying "I support this small business owner's right to refuse service to whoever they want and wish every business could do this in all circumstances", out of interest? (not counting Rand or Ron Paul)

2) I don't quite understand why it's OK for the restaurant to refuse service in this scenario actually. What's the difference between refusing to bake a cake for someone because they're gay, and refusing to serve them dinner because you saw them on TV and don't like their job performance? I think restaurants need to have some rights to refuse service (e.g., drunk, disorderly, no shoes, whatever), but not sure about just because someone is a serial liar, even if them being a liar is a) the whole reason for their employment as a lying mouthpiece for a bunch of dishonest liars and b) it's destabilising the entire planet
07:59pm 25/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26456 posts
The difference is that it's perfectly okay to be gay but it's not perfectly okay to be a major cog in the serial human rights violations that are currently occurring on the southern border.
08:05pm 25/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3236 posts
The difference is that it's perfectly okay to be gay but it's not perfectly okay to be a major cog in the serial human rights violations that are currently occurring on the southern border.


Life is easy when you're retarded.

Its not perfectly ok to force people endorse your relationship.
08:36pm 25/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3237 posts
burned animal corpse left on DHS staff door step.

Fpot gets his jollies.

I wonder if phooks will be in here soon to detail the very strong link between cruelty to animals and psychopathy. Probably not the resistance ends are justified because the end of the world is here with Nazis.

I reckon the Russians put them up to it, and there isn't a mass hysteria breaking out which is completely immune to fact or reason.

The Russian also made Maxine Waters go out a publicly demand this kind of behaviour.
08:56am 26/06/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9615 posts
2) I don't quite understand why it's OK for the restaurant to refuse service in this scenario actually. What's the difference between refusing to bake a cake for someone because they're gay, and refusing to serve them dinner because you saw them on TV and don't like their job performance? I think restaurants need to have some rights to refuse service (e.g., drunk, disorderly, no shoes, whatever), but not sure about just because someone is a serial liar, even if them being a liar is a) the whole reason for their employment as a lying mouthpiece for a bunch of dishonest liars and b) it's destabilising the entire planet


Somewhere along the long timeline, the rights of businesses flipped from "WE as society are permitting YOU as a business to operate in our community, on the condition that you serve the needs of the community" to "You as a community owe us as a business for providing to you". It's rather bizarre.

I do kinda understand the free-market stance in the sentiment that a business should be free to do whatever the hell they want within the bounds of the law, and let the customers decide if they want to support that behaviour - I just don't believe it results in a positive outcome to society on the whole because people will sacrifice ideals for convenience, availability and affordability.
11:44am 26/06/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
621 posts
and b) it's destabilising the entire planet
https://memegenerator.net/img/images/11023375/patrick-stewart-head-in-hands.jpg
Somewhere along the long timeline, the rights of businesses flipped from "WE as society are permitting YOU as a business to operate in our community, on the condition that you serve the needs of the community" to "You as a community owe us as a business for providing to you". It's rather bizarre.


It's rather bizarre when the socialist indoctrination has been so utterly successful that people now think that private property (ie someone's business) is somehow community property.

https://crossfitfms.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/photo.jpg
11:49am 26/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26458 posts
https://i.imgur.com/kZzOvF0.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/r99tLoS.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/u5a7rGX.png

Abducted children being threatened if they talk to reporters.

Not fascist. Just slightly erratic.
01:07pm 26/06/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9616 posts
It's rather bizarre when the socialist indoctrination has been so utterly successful that people now think that private property (ie someone's business) is somehow community property.


That's not even remotely socialist, nor what was said or even implied - but I'll make sure to feel sorry for the poor straw man you just gathered, built, doused, and set on fire.

We allow corporations to operate in society under rules and restrictions that they must follow, which are there in order to protect society as a whole. This idea that they're doing some kind of service for people and therefore people owe them something is so utterly bulls*** it's not funny. They're operating a business for the purpose of making a profit. The moment they can't take money from the public, they'll stop doing it, it's that simple.
01:44pm 26/06/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24087 posts
"WE as society are permitting YOU as a business to operate in our community, on the condition that you serve the needs of the community" to "You as a community owe us as a business for providing to you".


wrong. private citizens are generally free to associate (or not associate) with whomever they please (organised criminals and union thugs excluded). there is, nor never was, a community obligation for any private business, club or association to deal with anyone. it is illegal to discriminate, but it is not illegal to dislike someone. this is the essence of liberty. there are permits required for every business, and once satisfied, the owner's demeanour is on them. both the restaurant and the baker should be free to serve who they please, but be prepared for the resultant blowback.

that may involve the president detaining you and your family, and gassing and incinerating them.
04:08pm 26/06/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26459 posts
No need for that. So much evidence left behind. Better to seperate the families and then create a wall of bureaucracy so thick that the parents will never be able to penetrate it. Sure, you can see your child again, all you need to do is sign this confession and then be refouled. All perfectly legal in non-fascist USA.
04:32pm 26/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3238 posts
Except refoulement is only something that can be done to refugees.

Less than 1% of people illegally crossing the southern border are given refugee status.

See this is what happens when you've learnt a few bits of jargon and think you know a subject area.
04:44pm 26/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1024 posts

Donald Trump is a big, angry baby


Its funny because it's not Trump who's crying like a baby. It's those who feel for the feels of those feeling the feels who are doing the crying. From memory, he won the election, and Clinton supporters were doing the crying. He's a winner, and some have dedicated themselves to crying about it for 4 years. These sooks don't even live in the US, they are crying tears of empathy, enraged by the twisted news they subscribe too.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9914504-3x2-700x467.jpghttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-27/trump-baby:-uk-activists-work-to-get-blimp-flying-during-visit/9914002

It is all pretty funny. I expect this will all be more interesting in 10 years.
09:02pm 27/06/18 Permalink
Vash
5792 posts
https://streamable.com/zy1p7

Fox News vs. North Korean State TV

heheh
04:34pm 28/06/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41116 posts
come on bros

lets limp this b**** to 10000!
07:28pm 28/06/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3239 posts
The meltdown over Trump getting two supreme court picks has been very tasty. When you consider Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 85 he could potentially get three.

Entertaining to watch all the people who loved Kennedy for writing the majority opinion in hedges say he is a right-wing kook now. Dude literally legalised gay marriage in the US and lefties are calling him a right-wing conservative.

81 year old man retires when someone I don't like will appoint his replacement, therefore, I hate his guts.

Just for you spook
08:16pm 28/06/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4649 posts
Ginsburg must live, I don't care if they need to preserve her head in a jar like on Futurama
10:19pm 28/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1025 posts

Today on "Your ABC", the unbiased news source:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9921418-3x4-700x933.jpghttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-28/bom-staff-hijack-website-forecasts-in-pay-dispute/9921398

Using public service funds (ABC) to give air to a separate public service dispute (BOM).

"But it's still not as good as what other agencies have been able to achieve. "It's frustrating, because management could shift more."


Which are both likely to be more than the average private sector increase. They are holding out, that is why they are 'suffering'. I suggest they go to private sector if the conditions are not ideal, and see how that goes. Better not privatise the BOM, it will introduce capitalist corruption, they might forecast weather that their shareholders want.


11:55pm 28/06/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7872 posts
...interesting

12:54pm 30/06/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1027 posts
You cannot post yet! Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 18000 seconds.


Vash is one of my alts
08:04pm 01/07/18 Permalink
Vash
5794 posts
^thats what happens when you're not subtle enough with your trolling.
08:36pm 01/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1028 posts
07:27pm 02/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3240 posts
Jonathon Pie crushing it.

09:17pm 02/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1029 posts

Where news comes from.

Today's front page of Guardian news has a small extract of a large cartoon under the heading "Spotlight"

https://www.theguardian.com/au

Links to:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/03/fiona-the-underemployed-bettong-v-malcolm-goldplated-trufflecustard-turnbull

Which includes the image by "Cartoon by First Dog on the Moon"

which states at the bottom

certain facts from unemployed workers union
http://unemployedworkersunion.com/

Know your rights as an unemployed person claiming welfare, and follow Guardian news.

http://unemployedworkersunion.com/your-rights/

When will ABC link to this article by The Guardian? I'm sure the're tempted.

You don't need to look for work or participate in work for the dole if you get the right medical certificate. The unemployed workers union can provide advice if your medical certificate is rejected.

The AUWU has received many shocking cases of seriously ill people having their medical certificates rejected by Centrelink, The AUWU made contact with Australian Medical Association (AMA) in regards to this issue with the hope of working together to bring Centrelink into line. The AMA made some inquiries to Centrelink about how the system of obtaining medical exemptions works. The AUWU was informed that if your medical certificate is rejected you are entitled to a full explanation both over the phone and in writing as to why an exemption has not been provided. You also have a right to review.

07:38pm 03/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3241 posts
10:07pm 03/07/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
622 posts
I am absolutely loving the Leyonjhelm vs Sea Patrol Sarah saga. The disingenuousness coming from the left to contort her into being right is absolute gold.
02:12pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4650 posts
we’ve found what that blowhard Leyonhjelm is good for - provoking the so called left and then luxuriating in their outrage

seems familiar
05:49pm 04/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3242 posts
You'd think the "so-called" left would learn. Four years in and progress on that front is glacial.

Hason-young needs the boy who called wolf tattooed to her forehead.

male feminist gropes woman. doesnt "listen and believe".
06:22pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41118 posts
getting closer.

ive got balloons and poppers ready to go!@
06:25pm 04/07/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26462 posts
mmmm yeah that B**** is gettin' told. So good. Almost makes up for all that female rejection in my life. Soon you won't need the extra tissue for tears and you'll be able to masturbate with only one if this sort of thing keeps up, dazed.

we’ve found what that blowhard Leyonhjelm is good for - provoking the so called left and then luxuriating in their outrage
This is literally what all the figurehead right-wing politicians do. Say and do horrible things which normal people react badly to and then say look at the waves I'm creating, I am awesome! When they don't do this (Turnbull for instance) they tend to be loathed.
06:31pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1030 posts
I read a post from a friend today "Embarrassed to be Australian, again" with an image of some Aussie basketball player elbowing a Filipino in the neck in basketball. Typical of this guy. A screenshot taken out of context. Overall the Filipino's acted like wild animals, but he favours the screen-grab his news feed uses.
06:38pm 04/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3243 posts
mmmm yeah that B**** is gettin' told. So good. Almost makes up for all that female rejection in my life. Soon you won't need the extra tissue for tears and you'll be able to masturbate with only one if this sort of thing keeps up, dazed.


Geez that language sure does come easy to fpot doesn't it. He doesn't want to have to type it out but for some reason he can't quite put his finger on he is compelled to. Like a cry for help.

This is literally what all the figurehead right-wing politicians do. Say and do horrible things which normal people react badly to and then say look at the waves I'm creating, I am awesome! When they don't do this (Turnbull for instance) they tend to be loathed.


Fpot uses brain. Gets headache
07:26pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Vash
5795 posts
we’ve found what that blowhard Leyonhjelm is good for - provoking the so called left and then luxuriating in their outrage seems familiar


Heh indeed. It's like these people for years couldn't handle being proven wrong on important issues now just take delight in outraging their political opponents. You know you've failed at life when you just go full troll, which is basically what the right has become.

This needs to be posted again when it comes to Leyonhjelm.

https://i.imgur.com/1HYkUxa.jpg
07:36pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41119 posts
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
i wonder if the forum is going to IMPLODE!?@
08:30pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41120 posts
YASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
08:31pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41121 posts
where were you when this happened!?

https://i.imgur.com/OM5l3jj.jpg
08:33pm 04/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24088 posts
making history through retardation.
08:48pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4651 posts
10k posts and we still haven't made any progress
09:26pm 04/07/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39625 posts
Leyonhjelm: we need truly free speech so that everyone can compete equally in the marketplace of ideas

Also Leyonhjelm: b****** be trippin'
10:18pm 04/07/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39626 posts
Might lock this thread so we can kick off a new one; I think the size of it has been causing some grief server-side. Anyone want to get in some last bon mots?
10:19pm 04/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24089 posts
Great idea.
10:28pm 04/07/18 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16854 posts
Adieu, s****tain of the Internet.

May the next s***filled political thread be just as awful.
12:58am 05/07/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9617 posts
Adieu, s****tain of the Internet.

May the next s***filled political thread be just as awful.


I propose the next one be split in to two threads:

Political Thread 3A: For left-leaning posters only.
Political Thread 3B: For right-leaning posters only.

Then the two of you can argue over who should have been A and who should have been B.
09:37am 05/07/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39627 posts
there are more than two choices
11:25am 05/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4652 posts
thread 3C, far-centre and swinging voters
11:36am 05/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3244 posts
Leyonhjelm: we need truly free speech so that everyone can compete equally in the marketplace of ideas

Also Leyonhjelm: b****** be trippin'


Hanson-young:. We need to limit free speech because it allows people to perpetuate harmful stereotypes which oppress people

Also Hanson-young: all men are rapists.
12:40pm 05/07/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
623 posts
Did Leyonhjelm complain about names shouted at him? Pretty sure he didn't care and that Hanson-Young with her 4th grade intellect made it into national news. Pretty sure he, like everyone on the right is when invited to the absolute circus that is left wing outrage hysteria, is simply basking in the comedic value. Fpot trying his little heart out to get personal is also complete evidence that you're getting under his skin and is equally valuable humour.
01:20pm 05/07/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9618 posts
there are more than two choices

Let's be honest, those of us who sit somewhere in the middle tend to not bother getting in to these discussions because it's bad enough just getting called names by one side when they don't like what you're saying, having both sides resort to name-calling just makes you find it not worth wasting your time on them.
02:10pm 05/07/18 Permalink
Vash
5796 posts
Literally every post here by a right leaning moron is 'lol basking in the comedic value of the leftist hysteria' Zero thought or analysis into the situation. Really shines the spot light on the pieces of s*** of society.

Leyonhjelm made his comments based on Hanson-Young saying 'All men are rapists' which isn't what she said. He is in the wrong, and not just leftists are saying that.
04:59pm 05/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3245 posts
Literally every post here by a right leaning moron is 'lol basking in the comedic value of the leftist hysteria' Zero thought or analysis into the situation. Really shines the spot light on the pieces of s*** of society.


Contradiction within a single sentence. Vintage vash.

Leyonhjelm made his comments based on Hanson-Young saying 'All men are rapists' which isn't what she said. He is in the wrong, and not just leftists are saying that.


She just thinks that we live in a society which organised solely to benefit men, rape is pervasive and endorsed by society, and we train men to rape.

But the outrage follows a sustained period of low profile and reduced portfolio responsibility. Sounds like someone might need to show relevance
05:42pm 05/07/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7873 posts
Virginia owns this f***wit

05:52pm 05/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24090 posts
Can't wait for the prison hunger strike.
06:19pm 05/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1031 posts
According to Vash, even a person who is 'right leaning' is a moron. To quote the wise man himself:

leftist hysteria
leftist hysteria
leftist hysteria
leftist hysteria
leftist hysteria
06:55pm 05/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3246 posts
Can't wait for the prison hunger strike.


Personally I'm not going to eat until I next get hungry in solidarity.

I personally can't believe such sexist rape apologist language which trains men to be rapists was allowed on the ABC. I thought the ABC wasn't a fascist organisation, but Virginia used the word b****y.

Gendered language like that in 2018.

There needs to be a reflection pool so people can properly process the horror if tonight's events.

I mean from b****y it's fiesty and then from there it's pack rape.
09:53pm 05/07/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4404 posts
tbh Tri when she's not chilling on the morning news with old mate chatting about something nice, is kind of snarky

last edited by trillion at 22:38:27 05/Jul/18
10:30pm 05/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1032 posts
She's a hawt lefty
12:47am 06/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3247 posts
I actually hold Virginia in high esteem. But the wig out over language in the senate is a farce and everyone knows it.

The greens need column inches and nothing more. The point is even while taking someone to task over their heinous gendered language a professional reporter managed to make a hypocrite of herself inside 5 minutes.

If hanson-young wants respect she should try not confusing tv drama with reality.
06:38am 06/07/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
624 posts
She has a Bachelor in Social Science. That about sums up the entirety of her, to be honest.
08:42am 06/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1033 posts

Next to Michael Rowland being so professional, she does come across as unprofessional and fairly biased at times. But she has bigger boobs and better nips than Michael, and that's what really matters.

https://forums.auscelebs.net/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=14168


10:14am 06/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24092 posts
Virginia Trioli is not a journalist. She's an activist employed by the ABC.

Now I am going back into my cry closest to centre myself while I think about the numerous microagressions I may have inflicted today on every identity type in Australia (excepting for whites males of course because they cannot be discriminated against due to their privilege).
11:36am 06/07/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9619 posts
She has a Bachelor in Social Science. That about sums up the entirety of her, to be honest.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png
11:54am 06/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4653 posts
perhaps Trioli is just to the right of Leon Trotsky and a wall, but is she wrong? is Lionhelm not drawing a bit of a long bow when he summarises Hanson-Young’s position as ‘all men are rapists’?
03:58pm 06/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3248 posts
Hanson-young is a peddler of rape culture theory.

It's an accurate summary.

But beware the motte and bailey fallacy that attends the position. She will say "teach men not to rape" means something other than all men are rapists who have been socially conditioned to dominate women and must be taught not to do it.

Fwiw I disagree Virginia is an activist. I think she is generally a pretty balanced and she should hold his feet to the fire. I don't think it was a particularly compelling outing on her behalf.
04:28pm 06/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1034 posts
03:33pm 07/07/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7874 posts
The FK-IT policy what Straya does best.

07:33pm 07/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1036 posts
More anti trump hype from left wing biased ABC News, this time it's about how Trump trade wars it will affect Australians. Fear sells, and fear generates hate.

Headlines

A trade war will be hard to avert and Australia needs to prepare for the worst


Open it up to a wall of text.

Summary from wall of text used in headlines:

The most likely outcome is permanently higher tariffs


Permanently. Oh really!! Poppy c***.

Unless the Australian Government makes a robust case for free trade at home and abroad, it will find the domestic politics of international trade increasingly difficult to manage


Written by another left wing advocate from the left wing institute Sydney University.

Why can't the wall of text elaborate on "Australia needs to prepare for the worst"? Instead we have a wall of history of how we got here.

I was actually looking on the ABC news website for the details about how Trump says America pays for most of the defence of Europe. But could not find it. Maybe they chose not to publish that in quotable text. They ran it across the news bar on TV during the day with "See ABC News online for latest news and details".

Yah he's an annoying orange loud guy, but gee, this is the kind of tripe that naive people, who won't read details or seek facts will just go "Yep, another reason to hate Trump". This is the ABC's strategy, because it is over presented by employees who are left wing advocates preying on the naive with fear.

They pedal Trumphobia.
05:37pm 11/07/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26467 posts
Heh it's funny because I thought I saw last post in the thread was Twisted and he is normal and I read your post thinking it was him and I was thinking the poor guy has gone crazy but no, it's just you.

This is my final word in the/a ausgamers politics thread. I totally get how it's obnoxious of me to constantly post trump's controversies and failures in this thread so I will stop. It's a pretty firm belief of mine that certain people exist who are beyond reasoning with and who only react to direct personal inconvenience to themselves, and so I see my insulting acts as a satisfying but futile attempt to hopefully f*** with them in some way that helps them see that they are truly f***ed in the head. Strangely, they are resistant to such tactics.

trump f**** new things everyday and he is uniquely awful. My final say will be that he is the biggest threat to democracy the west has ever seen. He was not democratically elected. His election was a direct result of Russian interference. A move of complete ingenious on their part. Is the piss tape real? Who the f*** knows and who the f*** cares. The only thing that can adequately explain the utterly bizarre events and utterly bizarre behaviour by trump is that he is compromised in some way.

His children locking up was the final straw for me. It is an extraordinary act of cruelty for no purpose that can be properly explained. With that action he has firmly established himself as a figurehead of infamy for centuries. We are living through it right now, an infamous moment in USA history but like every other people who have lived through such times it is invisible. Only after this whole s****how is over will we see it for what it is - an almost genocidal act of separating families just to appease a racist minority. A racist minority that sees trump as a god. Who will let him do and say whatever he wants. And I mean that literally, whatever he wants. He is desperate to keep their support alive and relevant. So are others.

So keep this support of 'the right' in the USA up if you want. But like all things based on bulls*** it's destined one way or another to turn into dust and you'll be left holding a bag with a big f*****g nazi symbol emblazoned on it. Because to support the trump administration, or to apologise for it, is to align yourself with the most morally bankrupt people who have ever lived in the history of humankind. And that's another thing you can assign no hyperbole to because that's the point we're up to with trump. No matter how much he stacks the court and f**** with the processes that exist to serve justice to criminals like him I am still confident that he will face justice some day

Unless he starts literally murdering people instead of refouling* them to countries that will do the job for him what the f*** else is there to say?

*apparently not a word and I couldn't find a substitute for it so f*** you also I am drunk and the Blues lost :(
01:52am 12/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3251 posts
This is my final word in the/a ausgamers politics thread


It won't be.

A peak behind the curtain. And it's pretty f*****g funny.

Locking children up was the "final straw". Not if Obama did it it though. And there is hard proof he did.

Guess all those other times you wrote Nazis in your s*** you were crying wolf.

But you've said too many times now champ.

Cling to the Russian fantasy. It's clear it's important to you to salvage some self-respect because ideas you subscribe to have been so emphatically rejected.


Tell yourself what you have too you utter retard.
07:37am 12/07/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
625 posts
His children locking up was the final straw for me.


When humanity reaches the moral virtue of fpot we know our work is done.
08:45am 12/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24098 posts
My final say will be that he is the biggest threat to democracy the west has ever seen.


I hope you find sweet release.
09:45am 12/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4654 posts
he’ll be eating his salty words when the winning starts
10:24am 12/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24099 posts
starts? HAH
11:50am 12/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3252 posts
he’ll be eating his salty words when the winning starts


More like when Trump turns out to be an unremarkable president by any reasonable metric, and not a mixture of Nixon, Hitler and Satan.

Which is to say he's been eating his salty words for two straight years, with no end in sight. Which probably explains the ever increasing histrionics.

My personal favourite of the week was the women's march condemning the SCOTUS pick with the name of the judge blank.
12:28pm 12/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4655 posts
More like when Trump turns out to be an unremarkable president by any reasonable metric, and not a mixture of Nixon, Hitler and Satan.

on that I somewhat agree, but it depends on how well the other side can motivate their voters, perhaps starting with some candidates that don’t suck
04:27pm 12/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3253 posts
Which in turn will rely not on "their voters" but persuading the middle they will do a better job.

So far so arse wrenchingly f*****g aweful on that front.
06:21pm 12/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1037 posts

That is the funniest thing I have read this week. I really do feel sorry for fpot, and those who are so 'affected' in Australia by what the orange guy is doing.

If you're into world affairs so much fpot, check out what is happening in Indian news, and also in Pakistani news. It might not have made our news yet. S**** about to go down in Pakistan regarding their politics.

The NAZI references to Trump are so messed up. Is this what your propaganda sources feed you? Here is a way to look at it. Nazi's were not keen on Jews. Trump, and anyone else who runs that nation is a puppet of the Jews whether they want to be or not. Whilst I don't like your socialist or communists left wing approach, democracy is not true democracy, it's lobbied by money. Whoever has the most money, can lobby and get what they want, within reason. Trump just officiated Jerusalem as Israels capital or something like that recently.

Here is an example of the kind of journalism that gets onto mainstream media. The kind left wingers are seeking. Front page of Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/12/donald-trump-visit-britains-unifying-moment


It's simply forming a bond through agreed hatred of another
06:37pm 12/07/18 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4656 posts
teabaggers were even calling Obama a Nazi, it seems to be people's go to
06:57pm 12/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3254 posts
Yeah but if teabaggers are the yardstick, it gives you a pretty clear indication where the nazi brigade sit on the spectrum.
07:33pm 12/07/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1038 posts

Today on "your ABC"

A study published in 2013 which surveyed 605 journalists from a variety of organisations on their voting intentions. Fifty-nine of these journalists were from the ABC, and only 34 of them answered the question on voting intention, with 25 either undecided or electing not to answer. Of the 34 who did answer, 41.2 per cent, or 14, said they would vote for the Greens. It suggests they are out of touch with ordinary Australians.
41.2 per cent of sampled ABC staff said they would vote for the Greens

ABC has a wall of text article about sampling sizes etc in an effort to combat the facts.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-13/fact-check3a-abc-greens-voters/9931782

41.2 per cent of ABC sampled staff felt comfortable enough to answer the survey question, which was optional, and state that they would vote Greens.

That's more than double the Green factor of the average voters. ABC is more than twice as Green as the average voter, and they are 'working' employees, not unemployed people or students.

Would be interesting to see % ABC staff that vote Labor, considering public sector union employees tend to vote labor.

Who's ABC is it again?.... Green's and union's ABC.

----------------------

Reply to Vash below

Vash's logic: Guardian is likely to be 'higher quality' than ABC.
11:05am 13/07/18 Permalink
Vash
5800 posts
Naturally. Green voters are Educated & Intelligent. Perhaps thats why ABC Journalism is of higher quality than the private options.
11:56am 13/07/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24100 posts
Lol so intelligent, everyone they disagree with is literally a Nazi. HAH
12:54pm 13/07/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
626 posts
Being intelligent is like being a lady. If you have to tell everyone you are, then you most certainly aren't.
02:32pm 13/07/18 Permalink
Vash
5801 posts
Lol so intelligent, everyone they disagree with is literally a Nazi. HAH


Some are intelligent enough to realise that isn't the case.
04:01pm 13/07/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3255 posts
Some are intelligent enough to realise that isn't the case.


F***en hell you're just a void where a brain should be.
04:07pm 13/07/18 Permalink
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