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Abbott on 7:30 report tonight
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2548 posts
Lets all prepare for some enlightenment from the prestigious leader of the opposition.

Honestly I'm so disenfranchised by the major parties by now I barely even care who to vote for..
06:16pm 24/04/13 Permalink
system
Internet
--
06:16pm 24/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22609 posts
Looking forward to another hilarious youtube video of him bungling everything.
06:19pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2549 posts
Part from last night last year
LEIGH SALES: Have you actually read BHP’s statements?

TONY ABBOTT: No, but I’ve also got again the statement of Jacques Nasser, who says, “While we’re still evaluating the impact of the carbon tax, but it just makes it more difficult.”

LEIGH SALES: But hang on, no, no, you haven’t read their statements today, but you’re commenting about what they’ve announced today and how the Federal Government’s to blame for that.

….

LEIGH SALES: Do you – I’m asking you though, not about the Government. I’m asking: do you accept that it’s legal to come to Australia to seek asylum by any means – boat, plane – that it is actually legal to seek asylum?

TONY ABBOTT: I think that people should come to Australia through the front door, not through the back door. If people want a migration outcome, they should go through the migration channels.

LEIGH SALES: That’s an answer to the question if I asked you: how do you think people should seek asylum?, it’s not an answer to the question: is it legal to seek asylum?
06:21pm 24/04/13 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
5817 posts
My new favorite report is LEIGH SALES. LEIGH SALES is awesome.

I wish we could have an honest answer from a politician. I'd prefer it if they simply said "no comment". Instead of sidestepping the question. It's so close to being a strawman argument. Actually I think it's the equivalent.
06:29pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5931 posts
They can always say 'No Comment' in a doorstop interview. However, unless it's something like a matter before the courts for example, it'd be political suicide to refrain from comment in an interview they've supposedly prepared for.
That's one reason they give the roundabout bulls*** answers, and why Kerry O'Brien used to pull them up so much. :D
06:46pm 24/04/13 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1547 posts
Honestly I'm so disenfranchised by the major parties by now I barely even care who to vote for..


+1
06:48pm 24/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22610 posts
LEIGH SALES: Have you actually read BHP’s statements?

TONY ABBOTT: No, but I’ve also got again the statement of Jacques Nasser, who says, “While we’re still evaluating the impact of the carbon tax, but it just makes it more difficult.”

LEIGH SALES: But hang on, no, no, you haven’t read their statements today, but you’re commenting about what they’ve announced today and how the Federal Government’s to blame for that.

….

LEIGH SALES: Do you – I’m asking you though, not about the Government. I’m asking: do you accept that it’s legal to come to Australia to seek asylum by any means – boat, plane – that it is actually legal to seek asylum?

TONY ABBOTT: I think that people should come to Australia through the front door, not through the back door. If people want a migration outcome, they should go through the migration channels.

LEIGH SALES: That’s an answer to the question if I asked you: how do you think people should seek asylum?, it’s not an answer to the question: is it legal to seek asylum?
Ladies and gentlemen, your next PM of Australia.

It's going to be a long and damaging 3 years :(
06:49pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Tiny
Brisbane, Queensland
3370 posts
They can debate all they like. Labor wont win with gillard at the helm.
07:00pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35576 posts
this is the man that infi thinks should be running our country.
07:08pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5932 posts
Ladies and gentlemen, your next PM of Australia.It's going to be a long and damaging 4 years :(


Aye, he was still bumbling on The 7:30 Report well before Leigh Sales took over.

07:08pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
6852 posts
Ladies and gentlemen, your next PM of Australia.It's going to be a long and damaging 4 years :(
3 years.
07:11pm 24/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22611 posts
oops
07:13pm 24/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19807 posts
I can't wait for Tony to stop the debt and stop the boats. We are about to enter a golden era comrades.
07:21pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
9075 posts
I so, so hope she grills him on the NBN. He is such a bumbling fool its hilarious. Honestly though, what amount of damage could you do to the current NBN within three years? Would they even have anything actually rolling through in that time with all the contracts they'll have to sort as well as existing customers?
07:23pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Vash
3717 posts
holy s*** dazhel, that video.. this guy is our next PM?
07:23pm 24/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19809 posts
They've done virtually nothing on the NBN in the last 5 years so I wouldn't expect anything radical to change.
07:25pm 24/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
195 posts
I can't wait to hear from the Dear Leader. Only Tony Abbot and the Coalition team can restore order to our great nation.

It's going to be a long and damaging 3 years :(


If that's the case, it will be nothing new then? We have had nearly 7 damaging years so far.
07:26pm 24/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1747 posts
Zzzz. Dosnt matter what he says nothing but the s*** NBN plan is actually policy, rest is just smoke in the clouds.

Blah blah blah stop the boats, honestly f*** the boats I don't give a s*** about the boats.

07:45pm 24/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22612 posts
That's only true if you live in a make believe world where Labor are responsible for everything bad that has happened and everything good has happened due to outside influences.

The stop the boats thing is the worst piece of policy I have ever witnessed since being old enough to vote. It is a massive focal point of the LNP's campaign yet it is a total non-issue. It's sole purpose is to drum up support from people who are willfully ignorant and bigoted. Add this to the LNP's massively broken and inferior broadband plan and you have a pretty shocking government that you'd have to be pretty stupid or just an outright c*** to vote for.

Is there anything in Labor's plans or recent past that even compare in badness to the two things I mentioned? Their worst policies have been things that are probably pretty good in theory, but were ruined by corruption in the private sector by people trying to take advantage of it like the roof insulation thing. Roof insulation is a Good Thing, and is a cheap and effective way to reduce energy costs. It's a shame it was ruined by rogue operators.

I just look at the LNP, their policies and especially their most ardent supporters and I just see a bunch of regressively thinking science fearing alarmists who pretty much only give a s*** about themselves. There is nothing coming from the Labor camp that even compares to the s*** coming out of the LNP one in my opinion.
07:46pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
9076 posts
Hah, talking about numbers when him and Turnbull claim current NBN will be "94 billion". How much are we actually in debt with the current government? Are we actually that bad compared to other countries?
07:46pm 24/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19810 posts
Why compare to other countries? All the other countries were already in debt. Australia was in the privileged position of having a net surplus of reserves. All that is now gone and been replaced with a debt fuelled by wasteful ill thought projects.
07:53pm 24/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1748 posts
Lol labor is going to demonise LNP, in the same breath he called them dishonest, boobey trapping policies and being nasty and low.

07:53pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7617 posts
Why compare to other countries? All the other countries were already in debt. Australia was in the privileged position of having a net surplus of reserves. All that is now gone and been replaced with a debt fuelled by wasteful ill thought projects.

And how much of that is due to a structural deficit left by the libs? Massive spending obligations and tax cuts locked in? The fall in revenue from the global market situation? Lack of public utilities left to sell? The obligation to stimulate the economy and prevent businesses from going under and making the situation even worse?

I'd like to see how much of national spending over the last few years has been born of 'wasteful ill thought projects' created by labor. Considering that the party which you are an official member of is spreading lies about the NBN being a taxpayer funded cost, I'm very skeptical of the rhetoric.
08:00pm 24/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1749 posts
infi
07:53pm 24/04/13
Why compare to other countries? All the other countries were already in debt. Australia was in the privileged position of having a net surplus of reserves. All that is now gone and been replaced with a debt fuelled by wasteful ill thought projects.


Yet as Leigh said IMF found the most wasteful spending was under Howard?
08:00pm 24/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10142 posts
Someone has been putting up posters on the Southside
anyone seen these ?

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2013/04/24/1226628/547601-rudd-gillard-poster.jpg
08:02pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2326 posts
The IMF also thought it was a good idea to steal money from the people of Cypress to fix it's money woes.
08:09pm 24/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19811 posts
Outcomes are all that matters, excuses count for nought in this life. Howard delivered balanced budgets and surpluses. Gillard and Rudd have never come even close. And to show how serious they are about reigning in spending they announce more social programs, create more taxes with bureaucracy that doesn't even generate revenue, renege on their promised surpluses. This is a total and utter joke.It's comedy listening to Gillard.

I loved her response at the community forum when asked about bringing the budget back to surplus. She said failure was not an option. It would definitely happen. Pure comedy.
08:10pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7618 posts
Outcomes are all that matters, excuses count for nought in this life. Howard delivered balanced budgets and surpluses. Gillard and Rudd have never come even close.

So any contributing context, any possibility that the libs have the timing and the tax rates to thank, or that the libs may have even been somewhat responsible for much of the deficit with spending obligations and lowered taxes locked in - none of those things matter 'in this life'? What drugs are you on? (Don't answer. We already know that it's "single-sided partisan blame playing")

create more taxes with bureaucracy that doesn't even generate revenue

Is this a reference to the carbon thing? One moment your camp's calling it a money grab, the next you're admitting that it refunds the money to the consumer and so doesn't generate revenue? But then, you think that scientists have organised into a global conspiracy to hurt first world nations, so you'd refuse to see any rationality on solutions to the carbon problem.

infi is a high ranking whatisit in the queensland liberal party, he's the best propagandaist I've ever seen for never voting for them again (and I've only ever voted for them, and once democrat). He's made me realise how bulls*** the party's rhetoric, shared by those at the top, disturbingly is.
08:21pm 24/04/13 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3042 posts
Howard delivered balanced budgets and surpluses. Gillard and Rudd have never come even close.
Didn't someone post a chart on here in one of these political discussions that showed that in the last few years the Government has received more in tax revenue then they have spent?

Considering the deficit is almost solely from the Governments reaction to GFC that kept our country from falling into the same situation as the US or many European countries have, I kind of think you might be barking up the wrong tree.
08:29pm 24/04/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
871 posts
And how much of that is due to a structural deficit left by the libs?


Worst justification for piss poor economic management ever.
08:29pm 24/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19812 posts
Mining tax generates zero revenue and requited administration... Carbon tax revenue will collapse post 2015 due to collapse of carbon price in Europe. That won't stop electricity prices going up 10% p.a. And can't undo the govt handouts associated. Unless of course the government mandates the floor price for longer.

current gov revenue is $70b higher than 2007. So much for collapse in tax receipts hey?
08:32pm 24/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1750 posts
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/government-budget

Random googling, but looking at that back till 1979 its not our first defecit an won't be our last, seems like over time they are "necessary evils".

I don't think we "have" to be in surpluss for the sake of it an and hack and slash like LNP has done in qld.
08:33pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7620 posts
Carbon tax revenue

The purpose isn't to produce revenue?

Imagine for a moment, that you're not a whackjob who insists that professional scientists are organised in a global conspiracy to destroy first world nations (all for their beloved friends 'the tree hugging hippies' - the bff's of the professional scientific community with their frequent destruction of gmo crops and lies about vaccines and objections to animal testing and nuclear research and the like). Now that you're in this imagined state of being somebody who doesn't insist that every credible scientific institution in the world is part of a conspiracy when warning about the continued emission of carbon, imagine why somebody might want to put pressure on carbon emitting businesses and try to push the market towards alternatives?

Worst justification for piss poor economic management ever.

Well, it seems to be economics 101 as best I can tell, however much the opinion of economists is worth (probably not a whole lot, but probably better formulated than random partisan conjecture).
08:42pm 24/04/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
872 posts
So let me get this straight nerf.

the economic wizards over at labor after three years of government weren't able to sort out a "structural deficit"

In three budgets they couldn't take a surplus economy with un-accounted for future spending and turn it into a non-structural deficit.

That is absolutely f*****g pathetic. Why not spend 4 billion less on locking up refugees, or 100 billion less of fighter jets that don't exist.

Economics 101 but you fail economics 100 apparently.

Blaming the last government which sat over six years ago for the colossal and repeated economic f*** ups of this government is simply outrageous.
08:53pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7621 posts
So let me get this straight nerf.the economic wizards over at labor after three years of government weren't able to sort out a "structural deficit"In three budgets they couldn't take a surplus economy with un-accounted for future spending into a non-structural deficit.That is absolutism f*****g pathetic. Why not spend 4 billion less on locking up refugees, or 100 billion less of fighter jets that don't exist.Economics 101 but you fail economics 100 apparently.Blaming the last government which sat over six years ago for the colossal and repeated economic f*** ups of this government is simply outrageous.

I'm talking about the expectation to go into deficit during recessions (which now seems to be pretty much over, with Labor expecting to get out of deficit this year and then missing it with falling commodities or somesuch, presumably with a lower tax rate than the libs last balanced the budget with, without selling assets either). My comment about the libs was meant to be about their spending and tax cuts commitments also possibly being a contributing factor (my previous post was unclear).
08:57pm 24/04/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2307 posts
That's only true if you live in a make believe world where Labor are responsible for everything bad that has happened and everything good has happened due to outside influences. The stop the boats thing is the worst piece of policy I have ever witnessed since being old enough to vote. It is a massive focal point of the LNP's campaign yet it is a total non-issue. It's sole purpose is to drum up support from people who are willfully ignorant and bigoted. Add this to the LNP's massively broken and inferior broadband plan and you have a pretty shocking government that you'd have to be pretty stupid or just an outright c*** to vote for.


Hear f*****g hear.

To add to that, anyone who cries "Stop the boats" IMO in a complete c*** plain and simple.
08:59pm 24/04/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
873 posts
Yes but the actual deficit, not a potential future one, or "structural" is the purely the fault of the labor party. They alone blew the doe, and they alone promised to have the budget back in surplus, however I causally note an actual surplus excluding any potential structural difficulties.

They made their bed f*** em let em sleep in it.

I remember agreeing with taggs back in 09 that a surplus wouldn't happen.

To have hold on to the idea that they could deliver means one of two things

1) Swan was lying about delivering a surplus.

2) Swan didn't know he couldn't deliver a surplus.

on both counts he is a hopelessly incompetent person for the role, and that no-one in the government pulled him up points to a wider lack of economic ability.

Blaming it all on a structural deficit left by the libs cuts no mustard. they have had six years to defund s*** we couldn't afford and haven't done it.

The labor party have no-one but themselves to blame for the right and correct economic criticism they find themselves under.
09:07pm 24/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
11101 posts
did Phooks post the wrong video?
09:12pm 24/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7622 posts
Yes but the actual deficit, not a potential future one, or "structural" is the purely the fault of the labor party. They alone blew the doe, and they alone promised to have the budget back in surplus, however I causally note an actual surplus excluding any potential structural difficulties.They made their bed f*** em let em sleep in it.I remember agreeing with taggs back in 09 that a surplus wouldn't happen.To have hold on to the idea that they could deliver means one of two things1) Swan was lying about delivering a surplus.2) Swan didn't know he couldn't deliver a surplus.on both counts he is a hopelessly incompetent person for the role, and that no-one in the government pulled him up points to a wider lack of economic ability. Blaming it all on a structural deficit left by the libs cuts no mustard. they have had six years to defund s*** we couldn't afford and haven't done it.The labor party have no-one but themselves to blame for the right and correct economic criticism they find themselves under.

You're misunderstanding (because I typed the first part all retard'dly, so it's my fault).

I'm not blaming the libs for the structural deficit, I meant to suggest that their spending and tax cut obligations should be investigated for whether they actually had the budget in good shape.

When I said structural deficit, I meant to refer to the notion that the budget should be in deficit during a recession (do you disagree?).

Yes, the tightly balanced labor budget didn't quite work out in surplus this year. Though I presume that it was only a hairline away, done with lower tax rates than during the lib term (47% vs 45% max rate, kicking in at 2.5x higher than half a decade ago, which I presume cut out a hefty chunk of the revenues), done without selling infrastructure, without as much boom income, etc, so to me it sounds like they're possibly actually doing better. How much of a failure was it to just miss? The only people I hear harping on about this making Labor entirely incompetent (for slightly missing their estimate) are the lib party leaders, who howl on about that at every chance they get (and are demonstrably dishonest about it on issues such as the NBN, claiming that it's a taxpayer funded project, claiming that its max speeds are something like 50 Mbs in their FTTN comparison document, etc).

As far as I can tell, the real GDP growth rate is down since the GFC and slow in resource growth and so on (though I imagine that infi would blame it all on federal labor, heh). According to Hog's ATO or Treasury or whatever data that he charted some time back, Labor is taxing much lower than the Howard government as percentage of GDP, and now seemingly spending lower too, post-stimulus. This reverse in spending with a slower growing GDP indicates that they're probably more economically conservative than the Howard government, who possibly only was in the position that it was due to good timing with the boom and max tax rates (yet at the same time seemingly failed to make any investments).
09:16pm 24/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
708 posts
09:39pm 24/04/13 Permalink
qmass
Queensland
10583 posts
tony doesn't believe in evolution so that means nothing to him.
12:25am 25/04/13 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2327 posts
12:31am 25/04/13 Permalink
qmass
Queensland
10584 posts
thats smart.

then when they don't cave on leave they can quote that and say labor took it by failing to deliver on a budget surplus, as predicted by tony.
01:05am 25/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
196 posts
A good true line from Tony, Wayne Swan is on tv crying about government revenue while Julia Gillard is out announcing billions in new spending.

The government has a spending problem, not a revenue problem.
01:10am 25/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35579 posts
To add to that, anyone who cries "Stop the boats" IMO in a complete c*** plain and simple.


first its "stop the boats"

next its rants at blackies on the bus or train
05:03am 25/04/13 Permalink
carson
Gippsland, Victoria
1842 posts
Honestly I'm so disenfranchised by the major parties by now I barely even care who to vote for..

Join the club. Though for me it's not going to be either of the major parties as they both want to cut Uni funding.

Abbott and LNP are s***, Gillard and ALP aren't any better. Though for me ALP is the lesser of the two evils.

I'll be voting for a minor party again this year, like last election I generally base my vote on whoever has the best social policies for me.
07:25am 25/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13596 posts

I think Tony has his facts wrong.

When he talks about 'illegal' asylum seekers arriving by boat he must really mean the significantly higher illegal immigrants who overstayed their vesa.


“According to Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) statistics, in 2008-2009 an estimated 48 700 people were residing in Australia unlawfully and had either overstayed their visa or breached their visa conditions. By contrast, during the same period, only 1 033 asylum seekers arrived by boat.”


Taken from http://www.law.uq.edu.au/boat-people I'm sure there are better references that state the same point.

Sure that was 2008-2009, however according to Tony the Labor government utterly failed the people at stopping boat people. So what, was there like a 2000% increase in the amount of boat people or something? Or is it almost totally irrelevant compared to people over staying their visa?

So drop the talk on legal asylum seekers because it isn't a problem, they are coming in 'through the front door', ie doing it legally. The Visa overstaying are doing the 'back door' thing.. But you know, vote for the coalition because they want to save money by spending s*** loads of $'s on an irrelevant problem....

08:21am 25/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13597 posts

Mining tax generates zero revenue and requited administration... Carbon tax revenue will collapse post 2015 due to collapse of carbon price in Europe. That won't stop electricity prices going up 10% p.a.


Thankfully the labor government supplied me with subsidized solar panels so I greatly mitigate future electricity price rises, which leaves me with more money to spend in the future on stuff than I otherwise would have.
08:38am 25/04/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2308 posts
So drop the talk on legal asylum seekers because it isn't a problem, they are coming in 'through the front door', ie doing it legally. The Visa overstaying are doing the 'back door' thing.. But you know, vote for the coalition because they want to save money by spending s*** loads of $'s on an irrelevant problem.


Agreed. The reason they parade it around as an issue is because it's emotive and divisive and is easy for ignorant uninformed d*******s to latch onto. They play on the fact that a solution isn't obvious or easy; you can't just tax it away. Real solutions require sensitivity and compassion and real social change. Its just much easier to yell "Stop the boats" and pretend like everyone who disagrees is unAustralian.

Obviously there are a lot of other more relevant issues that more astute political minds than mine can debate ad nauseum, but it seems to me that any political party who espouses the kind of inherent racism and fear mongering along the lines of Stop the boats is not the sort of government I want to represent me or my country in the global community.

I loathed Howard, but Abbott is an entirely new form of c***roach.
09:05am 25/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35582 posts
I loathed Howard, but Abbott is an entirely new form of c***roach.


i would say substantially denser, which makes him all the more dangerous.

i do suspect however he could bowl a ball without looking like he has some form of physical retardation.
09:31am 25/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10147 posts
When he talks about 'illegal' asylum seekers arriving by boat he must really mean the significantly higher illegal immigrants who overstayed their vesa.


These people have passed through Customs and had their ID checked.
A majority of AS throw their documents away and enter without ID.
That raises security concerns.

Isnt the latest Labor Policy similar to Howards ?
The same one Gillard criticised in Opposition ?

11:52am 25/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19813 posts
Sure that was 2008-2009, however according to Tony the Labor government utterly failed the people at stopping boat people. So what, was there like a 2000% increase in the amount of boat people or something? Or is it almost totally irrelevant compared to people over staying their visa?


34,000 so far since Labor came to power. 14,000 since July 2012. People smugglers are making a fortune out of Labor's soft policies and hundreds of refugees are dying in the process. Australia's detention centres are bursting at the seams. Detained refugees are sleeping in tents on Christmas Island.

The people smugglers know they have this pipeline for their product - a place of milk and honey, where everyone can get free healthcare and welfare, all they have to do is destroy their personal ID documents and pass a single ASIO check. The only problem is that ASIO is so swamped it may take years to get that security check done while they watch their kids grow up behind razor wire.
12:09pm 25/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35584 posts
why cant these wretched people just stay in their own countries!!!!!
12:14pm 25/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22613 posts
The people smugglers know they have this pipeline for their product - a place of milk and honey, where everyone can get free healthcare and welfare, all they have to do is destroy their personal ID documents and pass a single ASIO check. The only problem is that ASIO is so swamped it may take years to get that security check done while they watch their kids grow up behind razor wire.
This is what I mean by willfully ignorant.

tony doesn't believe in evolution so that means nothing to him.
Is this true?
12:16pm 25/04/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
874 posts
Nerf, I would disagree that economic downturn == deficit. I also don't have a huge issue with running one, it easy to forget out here exactly how bad s*** got in 2008. *every* single one of my friends in Europe lost their job in 08/09.

It is arguable that the stimulus etc saw off a recession, but I question how bad a recession we would of actually had.

The more general point is that the global economic outlook is s*** and has been for ages, it is eventually going to catch up with us. Producing a surplus is hard in those conditions and anyone with half a brain knows it, so I really don't think the political capitol spent on just saying: we did what we had to and we will pay it off when we are good and ready, would be that big.

But they didn't, so now they rightly cop the flack of not delivering what they said they would.

Besides which I really don't understand how them cutting left, right and centre makes them a better choice than the libs. Alot of their policies are shameful(The gonski implementation is outrageous, get kids ready to go uni by defunding the unis. Genius this is idiot surplus at all costs thinking right here.), and they have a track record of outright hypocrisy.

There is a lot of crap flying around the NBN but again, on a project that size budget blow outs and delays are to be expected. I don't know if it is still true but I know when I was at uni something 80% of IT project blow both time and budget.

When they blindly insist that they can do the impossible It is right to call them out on it when they fail.
12:25pm 25/04/13 Permalink
typo
Other International
6531 posts
All the other countries were already in debt. Australia was in the privileged position of having a net surplus of reserves.


These are two different things. Things that are not mutually exclusive.

When Howard lost Government, the Federal Government had a debt of $15b. Since then, during some of the worst global economic turmoil since the great depression, we've gone to $27.5b. $12.5b to stimulate the economy while domestic economy was low is seen as fair economic policy by large economic think tanks.

The second point is about a budget with a surplus. By far the biggest impact variable with a Federal budget is due revenue being drawn. When financial sectors are low, like they have been since the GFC, no Government is going to thrive.

Howard only managed to do it by selling public infrastructure on the cheap.

12:41pm 25/04/13 Permalink
typo
Other International
6532 posts
A majority of AS throw their documents away and enter without ID.


The vast majority of AS never had official documentation. They are effectively third world peasants trying to survive. The vast majority of them are making their way to extended family who've already arrived in Australia.
12:44pm 25/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1413 posts
There is a lot of crap flying around the NBN but again, on a project that size budget blow outs and delays are to be expected. I don't know if it is still true but I know when I was at uni something 80% of IT project blow both time and budget. When they blindly insist that they can do the impossible It is right to call them out on it when they fail.


What other than the fact that you don't know how the NBN is funded?

That your ignorance only portrays your stupidity?

In opening your mouth you only change feet much like Toni Abbottpell.
02:40pm 25/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10148 posts
The ALP managed to have the NBN declared an investment or something therefore keeping it outside of the Budget.
02:47pm 25/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7625 posts
The ALP managed to have the NBN declared an investment or something therefore keeping it outside of the Budget.

For somebody as obsessed with australian federal politics as you, one would think that you'd know more than that...

It's a business. Its startup capital comes from australian government bonds instead of private banks (as it's a long term investment with yields a bit too low for anybody but massive corporations like Google), which it should almost certainly pay back since it will soon have a guaranteed monopoly once the copper is shut down. The only way that it relates to taxpayers is if the business fails and needs bailing. The business will be owned by the government, and will probably be sold once it's more established.
03:20pm 25/04/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
875 posts
Excuse me Hurricane Jim but where exactly did I say that the NBN was an issue for the treasury budget?

I said its not likely to stick it's budget, nor should that be particularly surprising. Forecasting exactly how long and how much it will cost to build a network of that size is going to be fuzzy at best.

However, Labor like to say its going to be built by x and cost y when, they should know that they are not hugely accurate estimates.

If they want to play that game fine, but when the estimates a wrong then they deserve the flack they get.
03:49pm 25/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7626 posts
However, Labor like to say its going to be built by x and cost y when, they should know that they are not hugely accurate estimates.If they want to play that game fine, but when the estimates a wrong then they deserve the flack they get.

They had 3rd party pricings done and actually have stated a range of possible costs. (this table is from the NBN corporate plan).
05:12pm 25/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
197 posts
I look forward to illegal entrants being stopped and the billions of dollars spent in detaining them being used on projects for Australians.
06:32pm 25/04/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2857 posts
there's more than a little bit of time shifting going on by Phooks

Phooks: first part from tonight
posted on 24/4/2013

Youtube:
Published on Aug 22, 2012
07:23pm 25/04/13 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
10920 posts
That was definitely one of Abbott's better performances, he actually sounded like he knew what to say.
07:41pm 25/04/13 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
10921 posts
For those who haven't seen it you can watch it on iview.
07:43pm 25/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1754 posts
Lol @ noddy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT9XS_TvzQ

And

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-26/fresh-concerns-on-liberal-gst-plans/4654680?section=tas

And we honestly want this guy as our PM, going gets tough, or hasn't been scripted for the answers he goes silent or walks off.
12:48pm 27/04/13 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2550 posts
Ah sorry I didn't catch part 1, mate sent me that one and didn't check the date on it.
12:53pm 27/04/13 Permalink
ara
Sydney, New South Wales
3650 posts
Howard only managed to do it by selling public infrastructure on the cheap.


you really think the govt of the day sold Telstra off cheap? What was T1, T2 and T3 sold for and what are Telstra shares going for at the moment?
07:21pm 27/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19823 posts
NO IT WAS CHEAP, THAT'S WHAT THE NEWSPAPERS SAY
07:28pm 27/04/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13824 posts
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-26/fresh-concerns-on-liberal-gst-plans/4654680?section=tasAnd we honestly want this guy as our PM, going gets tough, or hasn't been scripted for the answers he goes silent or walks off.

He clearly just doesn't give a f*** in this video.

The election's in the bag, I don't need to answer tougher questions, so f*** you I'm out of here. I'm not happy with our current Government, but I really do wonder what will happen if they get an upper and lower majority and a swing large enough to last a couple of terms.
07:28pm 27/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1415 posts
08:21pm 27/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19824 posts
Wow that eclipses the retardation that comes from Unions Australia by a country mile.

bravo!
11:15pm 27/04/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1756 posts
http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/the-palmer-effect/


Can't be any worse then the two jokers we have now, what's his NBN stance.

He has saved a lot of people's jobs in townsville with Yabula nickel refinery was toast and 1bn of upgrades to the refinery Coming, stands a good chance of one of his members getting a seat in the north.

11:49pm 27/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1418 posts
01:26pm 28/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19825 posts
Oh gawd^ haha facepalm
02:04pm 28/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5940 posts
That looks like one of those Glen Beck conspiracy diagrams, but I don't see aliens or the Illuminati anywhere.
03:50pm 28/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
200 posts
Hahaha it looks like it was made by someone with a mental illness.
04:53pm 28/04/13 Permalink
typo
Other International
6533 posts
The ALP managed to have the NBN declared an investment or something therefore keeping it outside of the Budget.


You should probably stop talking about now.
09:25pm 28/04/13 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2860 posts
wow HurricaneJim something sure has rustled your brain's jimmies if you made those
09:58pm 28/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1276 posts
When Howard lost Government, the Federal Government had a debt of $15b. Since then, during some of the worst global economic turmoil since the great depression, we've gone to $27.5b. $12.5b to stimulate the economy while domestic economy was low is seen as fair economic policy by large economic think tanks.


Howard's last budget was 10 billion in surplus. If you are using some non-obvious measure of the governments cash position which puts them in deficit when the normal interpretation would put them in surplus then you should draw attention to that in your post.
11:52pm 28/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19826 posts
11:55pm 28/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1277 posts
2007-2008 the budget was in cash surplus?
12:19am 29/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7629 posts
I think you need to read this hast2.http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm

I took this data, fed it through the RBA's inflation calculator, and tracked the spending growth of the last 4 governments.

http://i.imgur.com/8xtXkqp.png

Don't see much difference, looks like the Gillard government might qualify for 'most economically conservative'.

Coalition Average Spending Growth: 3.37%
Labor Average Spending Growth: 3.24% (including the GFC peak with fewer years to lessen the impact on the average)
12:36am 29/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1278 posts
nerf: i think 2000 was the GST and the GST shows up in both increased spending and taxing for the federal government. but it should not really be considered federal spending or taxation because the money was collected by the federal government on behalf of the states and was meant to replace state taxes.
01:45am 29/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1279 posts
though, reading budget papers at the time (2000-2001) GST revenue and expenses were not meant to be included. but the numbers in the final budget outcome for 2000-2001 are significantly different (less) than the numbers quoted here. but GST revenue was ~ 23 billion and the difference is ~ 21.5 billion so doesn't completely add up.

2000-2001 => 161.5 billion revenue (183 billion on the excel spreadsheet)

http://www.budget.gov.au/2000-01/finaloutcome/download/02Part1.pdf

unless someone has a good explanation as to how the numbers were created in that budget report i wouldn't try to use them to make comparisons in revenue/receipt growth which include years before the introduction of the GST.
02:10am 29/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7630 posts
Well taking the years only after the introduction of the GST in 2000 -

Coalition Average Spending Growth: 4.15%
Labor Average Spending Growth: 3.24%

Somebody needs to get the Coalition's spending rhetoric under control.
05:38pm 29/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1280 posts
nerf: what numbers are you averaging because this is very different from the result i get from averaging 2001-2007 which comes out slightly lower than ALP figures.
04:10am 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7631 posts
I just used the average button in excel for the inflated years, though started in 2000, not 2001. If we ignore 2000 (their biggest jump) then the numbers are 3.21 and 3.24, though that's assuming that the entire increase in 2000 was purely because of the GST I think? If these numbers even take into account the GST.
04:35am 30/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1281 posts
nerf: if you ignore 2000 it drops to around 2.7% which is quite reasonable because we are looking on year on year deltas and 2000-2001 figures are different from the actual final outlays. it's if you ignore 2000 and before ) that it drops to 3.21.
06:29am 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7632 posts
I can't get 2.7. But am still not sure why we are ignoring 2000 anyway, was just doing it since you said that before/after GST should possibly be considered differently, and that it might potentially be represented in this data.
11:15am 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19831 posts
I liked the bit on QANDA last night where Mark Butler admitted that Treausry forecasts had estimated growth in revenue for this year at 12.5%, and now they are $12b more in the hole because revenue will only grow by 7% (more than double inflation). Labor just can't manage money. Secondly, Swan must be financially illiterate to believe the bulls*** coming out of Treausry. I bet he also invested his personal super in the toll tunnels.
01:38pm 30/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1419 posts
I liked the bit on QANDA last night where Mark Butler admitted that Treausry forecasts had estimated growth in revenue for this year at 12.5%, and now they are $12b more in the hole because revenue will only grow by 7% (more than double inflation). Labor just can't manage money. Secondly, Swan must be financially illiterate to believe the bulls*** coming out of Treausry. I bet he also invested his personal super in the toll tunnels.
http://www.independentaustralia.net/Wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/AustraliasDebt.pnghttp://www.independentaustralia.net/Wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/AustraliasGrowth.png

I don't see how you could validate your statement infi other than being a leech who is a one-eyed supporter of the LNP.

Abbott being your god proves the point.
01:59pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35612 posts
no no you big silly hj;

unless a government is in surplus, its a massive failure, irrespective of whats happening in the rest of the world!!!!
02:36pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7633 posts
I wonder if it bothers infi that Abbott is three quarters of a million in debt, despite having been receiving a massive salary for decades.
06:48pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
9106 posts
So with this recent hubabulu in Queensland government, when will Liberal start selling off assets and outsourcing jobs?The report today didn't really make it clear except that they won't sell the power stations until 2015 and only after consideration.
06:53pm 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19833 posts
I wonder if it bothers infi that Abbott is three quarters of a million in debt, despite having been receiving a massive salary for decades.


He will clear that debt easily with his Prime Ministerial salary. All the hard work is about to pay off.
06:56pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7634 posts
He will clear that debt easily with his Prime Ministerial salary. All the hard work is about to pay off.

So it's ok to not be able to afford to live, and go massively into debt on a salary in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, so long as years later there's a chance that one will be in a better position to pay it off. So much for the party of the fiscally responsible. I can't believe how blind you are to your own double standards - if this guy was in labor, you lot would never stop harping on about what a fiscal disgrace he is. Imagine if Wayne Swann had the exact same history, what you'd say.

A lifetime journalist then politician with no business experience in massive debt is supposed to inspire confidence that the liberal party is about real fiscal expertise and not just newspaper-level rhetoric...
07:09pm 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19834 posts
Far from it, Tony invested in himself. He bought himself an asset which is growing in value and also had to underwrite many of the living expenses associated with being Opposition Leader which he is not paid for and has a far lower salary than the PM. He has to look Prime Ministerial in order to be credible and so he backed himself.

He has shown very high degree of initiative and prepared himself for office. It has been a perfectly executed strategy.

I don't know how much borrowing you do Nerfy you sound so noobish about most stuff financial so I assume you get most of your info from NineMSN but a personal loan would include an amortisation schedule of repayments so there is no way Tony will be in debt for years to come or that the debt for him is unaffordable.

Labor's problem on the other hand is that they are crying poor about not being able to afford all their grandiose social spending when there are interest payments on wasteful stimulus handouts and programs staring them right in the face. If they hadn't engaged in wasteful wreckless spending in their first term the interest payments alone would pay for the NDIS and we wouldn't be staring a tax hike in the face.

Socialists love to spend with gay abandon, get the country into debt and then use their financial mismanagement as the argument for more tax hikes. The last 5 years have gone exactly according to the standard Labor narrative. It's so predictable. And they call Liberals wreckers.... irony much
07:24pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7635 posts
being Opposition Leader which he is not paid for and has a far lower salary than the PM.

He gets paid $352,000 per year according to this. (The PM gets paid $495,000 per year. Not that it should matter what the PM is paid for whether somebody on hundreds of thousands a year for decades should be having to take out a mortgage to pay for their living expenses).

He has shown very high degree of initiative and prepared himself for office. It has been a perfectly executed strategy.

Oh f*** off, your partisanship makes you create the most ridiculous double standards. If he were wayne swann in that much debt with that kind of salary, you'd never stop going on about how he shouldn't be allowed near public money ever.

you sound so noobish about most stuff financial

I happily admit that I am, but you're just pulling that out because of my disagreement with the partisan bulls*** that you sprout.

so I assume you get most of your info from NineMSN but a personal loan would include an amortisation schedule of repayments so there is no way Tony will be in debt for years to come or that the debt for him is unaffordable.

Yet I didn't say that it was unaffordable, I said that that it doesn't reflect very well on claims to him being a leader of fiscal mastery when he's in a position that he has to take out a mortgage to pay for his family's living expenses after decades of high income.

Labor's problem on the other hand is that they are crying poor about not being able to afford all their grandiose social spending

Why do you refer to labor's 'grandiose spending' yet not the liberal's, which showed similar or even larger increases during their times in office?

http://i.imgur.com/8xtXkqp.png
08:59pm 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19838 posts
It's hilarious that you are so desperate to discredit Tony that you are judging his personal spending habits. Last I checked people are free to do what they want with their own money. IT IS NOT TAXPAYERS MONEY. It is a completely irrelevant comparison you are making. Look at his performance as Cabinet Minister in a previous government that delivered 10 of 11 surpluses.

If you don't think that rolling out pointless make work schemes like building overpriced school halls, wheeling out truckloads of free cash into the streets and promising grand social program after program (uncosted) is not grandiose spending then you are beyond help. Mind you they also implemented a new mining tax that generated zero revenue, a new carbon tax that brought with it a fleet of new boffins, and further tax hits to high income earners.

This is a class-warfare oriented government obsessed with spending beyond the income it is receiving. There is no urgent requirement for them to commit to the NDIS or Gonski reviews now - they don't need to plunge the budget into further deficit - but they are choosing to. They could have achieved those savings, not spent on these social programs (maybe try and save a bit from the $6b blowout in detention centres too) and generated a surplus. But for Gillard it's spend spend spend.

The Labor party just has to get it in all of their agenda before they are turfed out along with a bunch of tax rises the Coalition will have to unwind as well.
10:02pm 30/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
203 posts
Watching Nerd Lord trying to draw comparisons to Tony Abbot personally going into debt to the Gillard government going into debt is hilarious.

It's a typical comparing apples and pears argument.
10:05pm 30/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1282 posts
nerf: that excel spreadsheet is highly misleading because:

it includes GST revenue and GST spending as part of commonwealth revenue and spending. this creates a massive increase in spending and revenue in 2000 when the GST was introduced. it also gives the impression of 'spending cuts' when GST revenue fell during ALP budgets.
10:27pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7637 posts
It's hilarious that you are so desperate to discredit Tony that you are judging his personal spending habits.

Except that's not remotely related to what I'm doing, I'm raging against the bulls*** double standards of partisan types like you. "Oh it's very wise of him to have a lifestyle which requires mortgaging the house when on a huge salary which he's been receiving for decades. It's very wise of him to bank on making PM to be able to support his lifestyle."

If it were a labor candidate it would be "Oh jesus look how terrible these people are with money."

You know it. I know it. I just don't get what goes on in your type's brains, it's like peering into an asylum every time you political partisans try to reconcile reality with your rhetoric and invent these enormous double standards. Same probably goes for Labor partisans, but they don't seem to exist in these parts.

nerf: that excel spreadsheet is highly misleading because:

it includes GST revenue and GST spending as part of commonwealth revenue

Didn't you say that the GST money didn't show up on that budget? It doesn't explain all the other years where their spending increased.
10:39pm 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19839 posts
Tony is free to do with his own money and assets which he earned whatever way he wants. If he wants to give his house away he can. If he wants to buy each of his daughters a pony on a personal loan he can. What does this have to do with running the country!?
10:42pm 30/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1283 posts
nerf: if you drop the year 2000 then you get 2.7% average increase. but all the figures are rubbish after 2000 because variations in GST revenue show up in the spending column.

anyway.. i'll illustrate the problem. say in 1999 spending was 100. then in 2000 GST was introduced and that raises 10 and that 10 is sent to the states. Also, spending without GST was unchanged. So total spending in 2000 increases from 100 to 110 even though actual federal spending is unchanged.

now, lets say in 2001 the economy tanked and GST receipts dropped from 10 to 9. Also, spending excluding GST was unchanged. Now we have total spending dropping from 110 to 109 even though actual federal spending is unchanged.


Year | Spending | Change
-----------------------
1999 | 100 |
2000 | 110 | +10
2001 | 109 | - 1


including GST spending and receipts in the federal budget revenue/receipt figures and then making spending comparisons is very misleading. the ALP are doing this because it shows a massive spending increase in 2000 when the GST was introduced and also makes it look like there were spending decreases during the recession when GST takings decreased. they assume people will forget that GST is included in spending/revenue and that it was introduced in 2000 and then make a bunch of misleading comparisons between the Liberal and ALP budgets.
10:57pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7638 posts
Tony is free to do with his own money and assets which he earned whatever way he wants. If he wants to give his house away he can. If he wants to buy each of his daughters a pony on a personal loan he can. What does this have to do with running the country!?

Lol. You made a dozen excuses for him ("Oh it's very wise to live beyond his already enormous means and then bank on making PM"), so obviously you think that it's an important element to consider about him (That he can't even succeed with his own finances despite being in a better situation than most). My point was that people like you would never see the fault in the person so long as they're in the 'correct' party, which you've proven very well.

The rhetoric about the libs being the super fiscally conservative group when they choose an ex-journo with no business experience and >half a million in debt as their best representative is a sad reflection on the party.

including GST spending and receipts in the federal budget revenue/receipt figures and then making spending comparisons is very misleading. the ALP are doing this because it shows a massive spending increase in 2000 when the GST was introduced and also makes it look like there were spending decreases during the recession when GST takings decreased. they assume people will forget that GST is included in spending/revenue and that it was introduced in 2000 and then make a bunch of misleading comparisons between the Liberal and ALP budgets.

But didn't you say that the GST figures didn't appear to be in the budgets listed? Additionally this wasn't data from Labor, it was from what a guy in the liberal party linked.
10:57pm 30/04/13 Permalink
hast2
UK
1284 posts

But didn't you say that the GST figures didn't appear to be in the budgets listed? Additionally this wasn't data from Labor, it was from treasury, which a guy in the liberal party linked.


no. i linked earlier to the final outcome of the 2000 budget which did not have GST included. this budget had significantly less revenue and expenditure than the budget listed in the table. (because the budget in the table has GST and the other budget doesn't!). budgets did not always have GST included in them. BUT the treasury figures have gone back and adjusted all the budgets (>= 2000) that did not have GST included to include GST so they can be compared with the current budgets that have GST included in them. however, what they really should have done is strip GST from the current budgets that have GST included in them because including GST in the budget just turns the data into garbage. the data is not useful for any kind of comparison.
11:04pm 30/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7639 posts
So you're saying that these numbers were retroactively updated to include GST by Treasury? (Is it a decision that the ALP makes or were you referring to something else by saying that they were doing this?)

From the sounds of things, GST is not included on the budget expenses:
http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/faq.htm#GST

The captions on page 12 of this suggest that the introduction of the GST resulted in significant lowered state expenses for the federal government http://www.budget.gov.au/2000-01/highlhts/glossy.pdf , yet they didn't have an overall expenses drop, and in fact still had projected increases, which is my main point (that the 'spending increases by labor' rhetoric is not well demonstrated).

If these numbers include something uncontrolled like GST payments, I'd like to see the standalone versions to compare spending increases between governments, because with the only data that I've seen, it's not evidenced that there's really any difference in spending increases.
11:19pm 30/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
736 posts
It's hilarious that you are so desperate to discredit Tony that you are judging his personal spending habits. Last I checked people are free to do what they want with their own money. IT IS NOT TAXPAYERS MONEY. It is a completely irrelevant comparison you are making.


I normally stay out of this thread beyond posting a few lulz comments, but jesus on a stick...

If you can't see how this isn't VERY relevant to the conversation, then you're just blind.

What Nerfy is saying is that if the man who earns probably triple the average family can't keep his house-hold budget in order, then what makes you think he'd be any better when he's running the nation.

It's a VERY relevant thing to look at.

But hey, I'll sit back with my popcorn now and get back to lurking.
11:41pm 30/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19840 posts
How is it relevant exactly? Abbott is not writing the budget cheques from his CommBank passbook. He doesn't pay the public service wages from his NetBanking in the evening after he finishes work. The Commonwealth budget is managed by a horde of public servants - keeping in mind even with all of that assistance Swan still can't make it balance.

Abbott provides for his family and they all seem happy (at least on 60 minutes they did). His family are his constituents in terms of his family finances that is all he answers to. Are you saying Tony's $500,000 personal loan invalidates his record as a Cabinet Minister in a government that delivered 10 of 11 surpluses?

I've got nothing left to say. You are entitled to your opinion. This comparison is like using the comparison of politicians who have affairs etc and the public/media moralising over that.

Professionals know how to separate home life from business. Try it some time.
11:49pm 30/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
204 posts
like i said, it's like comparing apples and pears. It's a dumb.
12:13am 01/05/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5950 posts
I don't get what the beef is - isn't it a good thing that being a cashed up bazillionaire isn't necessary to become a politician?

It's a property mortgage against an appreciating asset to cover immediate education expenses for his daughter(s), nothing more. If bringing home a six figure figure salary while maintaining a six figure mortgages disqualifies you from managing money then a lot of bankers would be out of a job tomorrow. Martin Place would certainly be a lot quieter.

Any bank would tripping over themselves to loan Tony Abbott money since the lifetime pension regardless of whether he becomes prime minister or not translates into enormously low risk for all parties involved.
12:59am 01/05/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7640 posts
I don't get what the beef is - isn't it a good thing that being a cashed up bazillionaire isn't necessary to become a politician?

The point is that he has been cashed up for many years, and yet needs to take a mortgage on his home to pay for his daughters' schooling after a downgrade in salary, still in the hundreds of thousands, after the howard government lost office. It doesn't indicate reassuring things about his ability to spend, save, and commit responsibly. He's an older guy with decades of high income behind him, yet his financial position requires him going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt? Sounds worse than many low income people I know, who at least are capable of living within their (significantly lower) means.

The rhetoric from people like infi is that the liberals are the very bastion of fiscal responsibility and business credibility, yet the majority of them voted out the one self-made guy with business experience, and put in Abbott - first job straight to a plant manager from a mate (which seemingly didn't last long), then a monk drop-out, then a journalist, then a politician. No business experience, no credibility, and can't even seem to work out his own finances, and they put him in as their apparent overall representative. It's all a rhetorical sham as best I can tell.
01:10am 01/05/13 Permalink
ara
Sydney, New South Wales
3651 posts
so he is 750k in debt for whatever and he gets paid 350k/year and you think this is financial mismanagement? uhuh
01:44am 01/05/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5951 posts
It's not as if he mortgaged his house and then ran off to Star City though was it?
He invested in property, paid it off, then remortgaged it to invest in his kids future. It was a while ago since I went to uni but who knows, there's probably still a hefty discount for paying full fees upfront these days that he could be taking advantage of, right?

Sounds like you're itching to give Abbott a phone call & provide him with some free unsolicited advice on managing his personal finances.
01:45am 01/05/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
205 posts
- Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
In office
- Minister for Health and Ageing

Yeh the guy has 0 credibility and wouldn't have any clue about running a government.............

so he is 750k in debt for whatever and he gets paid 350k/year and you think this is financial mismanagement? uhuh


Nerfy doesnt let logic get in the way of a good Abbot bashing, either does Fpot.
02:19am 01/05/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7642 posts
It's amusing watching you guys dance around the two points that I've made, and criticize those straw men.

My points were:

He has an existing history of high income, not just a high income now. That after all that he's in a position where he needs to take out a mortgage on his house to pay for living expenses, while still having a huge salary but just slightly downgraded (and not unpredictable), suggests a strong inability to save or budget. It's ironic that he's voted as the leader of the group who go on about such things as if they're the masters of it (we only have his personal history as proof of that, since he's never run a government).

People like infi will always go to lengths to paint people in labor as inexperienced and inept and so on (going on about their membership in unions etc, which I actually am concerned about as it were), but when it comes to somebody as private-business inexperienced as Abbott in that kind of financial position after decades of high income? Excuses, and even an attempt at painting it as something to praise, that he spends how his income may one day match years down the road if he makes prime minister.
02:43am 01/05/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5952 posts
lol, you make it out to be some big roll of the dice and if he becomes PM he avoids going bust, but if he doesn't the bank will need to foreclose. Someone on an parliamentary salary doesn't have a 30 year outlook on a mortgage like us regular s***kickers, I have no doubt it'll be paid off very promptly because of his means & secured against future guaranteed income.

The logical conclusion seems to be that if personal finances of government members are of national interest then the entire cabinet will appear one day as an appendix to Budget Paper #2 for closer public scrutiny.
08:11am 01/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19841 posts
You are clutching at straws, Nerfy.
08:32am 01/05/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7643 posts
lol, you make it out to be some big roll of the dice and if he becomes PM he avoids going bust

Christ all mighty. No. Infi made it out like that, not me, I was highlighting how stupid it was that he resorted to praising living beyond one's means as 'clever' as he might be able to afford it in the future.

Someone on an parliamentary salary doesn't have a 30 year outlook on a mortgage like us regular s***kickers, I have no doubt it'll be paid off very promptly because of his means & secured against future guaranteed income.

Can't you just learn to read? That's the whole point. He's already been on these massive salaries for decades. Where's it all gone that he needs to mortgage his house to pay for the cost of living when his salary drops to something still in the hundreds of thousands?
09:49am 01/05/13 Permalink
ara
Sydney, New South Wales
3652 posts
- He has an existing history of high income, not just a high income now. That after all that he's in a position where he needs to take out a mortgage on his house to pay for living expenses, while still having a huge salary but just slightly downgraded (and not unpredictable), suggests a strong inability to save or budget.


does it matter though? he spent his money on what he wanted when he wanted, now he has a loan that is completely serviceable based on his current income and somehow it is a big deal?

you seem to be implying he is destitute or something after a "history of high income' and is living hand to mouth with his loans to help out. I really see nothing to indicate this. you also seem to imply the money he did earn previously was wasted, when there are any number of legitimate places it may have gone, for example, investments, helping out family be it parents, siblings or children, paying for his children's education.

I don't even like the guy but this is just so crazy and off the wall.

11:10am 01/05/13 Permalink
jum
Brisbane, Queensland
668 posts
nah, nerf is the only rational free thinker on qgl and people who takes issue with things he says are just partisans and ideologues whose arguments are composed purely of strawmen
12:56pm 01/05/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13845 posts
Yeh I'm all for the Abbott is a tard bandwagon but this isn't an example.

It would have legs if the bank foreclosed but this its an odd criticism at best.
01:01pm 01/05/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
9113 posts
Would QGL/AG exploded if Abbott landed flat on his face after his first year in government?

With all this talk of the clouds falling and the budget in dire needs, how exactly will Abbott fix everything? Are we suppose to just elect him and hope he does a good enough job or does he actually have proper, well thought out plans? Every time he is questioned about the budget he seems quick to fire remarks about current Labor government but never really offers a Liberal resolution. Do they have one?

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that Abbott is a bad choice per say, just that from what I have seen he hasn't really told me exactly how he will "fix" everything. I'm not really an allegiance kind of person, I'll vote on who has the better policies that will affect my life the most. Currently Labor have a much more sound technology policy with the NBN compared to Liberal but there is also the constant taxing that Labor have been doing that can cause concern.

I just want a government that is good in both social aspects and money aspects, but those two don't seem to mix.
02:08pm 01/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19844 posts
Are we suppose to just elect him and hope he does a good enough job or does he actually have proper, well thought out plans? Every time he is questioned about the budget he seems quick to fire remarks about current Labor government but never really offers a Liberal resolution.


The problem is that the Government has the full power of the Treasury boffins at its fingertips to cost new policies or savings measures. The Opposition gets only the Budget, the Mid-Year update and the update prior to the election campaign per the Charter of Budget Honesty.

The Opposition also has the Parliamentary Budget Office http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Budget_Office . I am not up to speed on how well resourced this office is but I hazard to say it would be nowhere near the size of the Treasury Department.

As such the Opposition can not really know the potential impact of its policy or the scale of its savings without accurate modeling. As any Opposition typically says, we have to wait until we get in and look at the books because they are invariably cooked by the government of the day. (Except Howard who left a $20b pile of cash there for Rudd.)
02:32pm 01/05/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35622 posts
i do enjoy that infi actively is driving people away from voting out labor.

between him, sheerfatty and tony being on tv a lot, i still have hope that our wonderous country can be saved!
03:00pm 01/05/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
206 posts
nah, nerf is the only rational free thinker on qgl and people who takes issue with things he says are just partisans and ideologues whose arguments are composed purely of strawmen


Exactly. It makes me wonder why people like infi even bother conversing with him when he has this attitude and mentality.

Remeber folks, he has nothing against the Liberal party and he has never voted Labor /rollseyes

Would QGL/AG exploded if Abbott landed flat on his face after his first year in government?


I guarantee if an Abbot government so much as farts, people like fpot and nerf will be straight into a thread screaming "OMG THIS GOVERNMENT IS BAD, WORST EVER" yet when we have a truly bad government that is actually the worst ever like now, they are continually defending it.

Not once have i ever seen Fpot or nerfy or any of the other labor party hacks actually acknowledge that this government is doing a bad job. The saddest thing is that they desperately try to pretend that they aren't Labor party die hard supporters despite showing their true colours almost daily in threads like this.
03:47pm 01/05/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10175 posts
12:28pm 05/05/13 Permalink
Nukleuz
Perth, Western Australia
295 posts
As a typically Liberal voter (based purely on what is/was sound policy) I surprised myself by voting Labor at the last state election. They not only had better policies but also ran a very good campaign. The Liberal campaign purely subsisted of "Look what Federal Labor is doing to the country, don't let them get their hands on WA". There was no forward thinking from the Liberals. No new nation building projects. Let's just stick with the status quo and stagnate.

The problem is it worked. My guess is that WA was a test bed for the Liberal strategy coming into the next federal election.

Voting in a federal government without any mandates is a dangerous thing. Everything becomes a non core promise as one John Howard put it.

Interesting times ahead...
01:25pm 05/05/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13863 posts
yet when we have a truly bad government that is actually the worst ever like now.

This sort of really f*****g stupid statement is why people turn away from you and infi.

Rudd-Gillard is far from the worst Government we've ever had, even for a partisan this is a really f*****g dopey statement. They've passed legislation and are Governing, for worst ever you would have to go to Whitlam (lol no supply, kicked out) or maybe Fraser (got inflation? lol) IMO. There's a lot of candidate Governments if you are educated enough to be able to choose older Governments than Howard lol.
01:31pm 05/05/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10176 posts
Nukleuz how do you feel about WA contributing massively more than they get back via GST distribution ?
The weak Education funding offer that was made ?

WA gets a raw deal from Federal Governments be they Coalition or ALP.


01:58pm 05/05/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
210 posts
The Liberal campaign purely subsisted of "Look what Federal Labor is doing to the country, don't let them get their hands on WA".


Why shouldn't it have consisted of that? Labor governments whether they be Federal or state ALWAYS end in chaos with mass amounts of debt and the economy down the crapper. We have seen it in QLD, NSW, Victoria and guess what, it's never going to change. I don't know why people even consider Labor as a serious alternative government anymore.

It's like jumping off a cliff, you know what the outcome will be yet you still do it.

There was no forward thinking from the Liberals. No new nation building projects.

BS. You obviously didn't listen to the government during the election at all. There is numerous big projects happening around WA at the moment.

Voting in a federal government without any mandates is a dangerous thing. Everything becomes a non core promise as one John Howard put it.Interesting times ahead...


But we all know how a Liberal government works and we all know what to expect, same as we know what to expect from a Labor government.
05:16pm 05/05/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2330 posts
All other discussions aside for a second, I wonder if infi and the other Lib supporters on here would like to comment on this collection of quite frankly embarrassing media clips of Tony Abbott "deer in the headlights" approach to answering legitimate and relevant questions?

Abbott aka The Stunned mullet

Like any good salesperson, politicians are usually masters of spin, handling tough questions and general filibustering. I'm interested in how the Libs might defend/explain Abbott's "stunned mullet" approach to dealing with media questions. Are you confident that he is the best person to represent Australia in the international arena or do you think he might end up looking like a colossal d******* if he ever has to answer tough questions?

I mean personality wise, compared to someone like Paul Keating or even (loathe as I am to admit it) Johnny Howard, Abbott comes across as someone who might have been dropped on his head as a baby don't you think? It's like the cogs are turning a little too slow or something.

I imagine he constantly that thing where he gets really cranky with himself on his way back to the office..."Oh gosh darn it! I know what I should have said!"
05:20pm 05/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19862 posts
I love it when Tony just stares at an interviewer blankly or walks off from a press conference - he does not give a f*** about the media. It's not long to go Tony - once we get in we'll change it all. Actually Peter Garrett said that.
05:48pm 05/05/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10177 posts
Kevin Rudd and Peter Beattie were Media Whores.
Are you claiming that makes then great leaders ?

maybe Tony is awaiting instructions from above.
05:58pm 05/05/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22652 posts
Anyone notice the contradiction in Gillard's own paradigm?

* Firstly, she wants you to get a good education. Because an education leads to prosperity...And she "feels" passionate about education.

* But then, if you do too well and generate too much prosperity for yourself, she'll punish you economically under some Socialist ideological BS of helping the poor. (This notion fails as it doesn't get the poor to climb out the extremely difficult situation they're in. Its like she wants to keep them poor through Govt dependence in order to feel good about herself. Hence, the line satisfy her "sense of Social Justice"! In her eyes, she's doing something for the poor...In reality, it really ends up doing nothing! Money is spent with little to show for it, as nothing will have changed.)

* All the while she gets ~$495,000 per year as the PM of this country. And if she gets her butt handed to her in September, she is eligible for a $177,520 per year pension for life. Naturally, she'll be exempt from the BS taxes and such she puts others through. ie: One rule for us and one rule for her. (Since Penny Wong has never put up new legislation to have the same rule for all. She has only talked about it. That's all. Nothing has been implemented. )

* This double standard behaviour is typical of Feminists like Gillard. Just look at her stance on "misogyny". Its not consistent. In fact, its very malleable based on her "feeling".

=> In her eyes, one is a misogynist if one doesn't agree or points out her hypocritical behaviour.

=> However, one is NOT a misogynist if one offers her avenue to hold onto political power. It doesn't matter if its Peter Slipper or Kyle Sandilands in a bunny suit. (The former had texts on his phone that describe female body parts in a crude manner, while the latter has a known public record of verbally putting down women on the radio).
06:05pm 05/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19863 posts
All good points^
06:08pm 05/05/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22653 posts
I am just glad I am such an ardent political enthusiast otherwise I wouldn't be able to come up with such good points.
06:11pm 05/05/13 Permalink
3x0dus
Townsville, Queensland
1763 posts
I mean personality wise, compared to someone like Paul Keating or even (loathe as I am to admit it) Johnny Howard, Abbott comes across as someone who might have been dropped on his head as a baby don't you think? It's like the cogs are turning a little too slow or something.


If happily take John Howard back arms wide open compared to Abbot and the germ hockey running things.
06:16pm 05/05/13 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2331 posts
he does not give a f*** about the media.

Is that intelligent political strategy though? Like it or not, the majority of voters will form their opinions by what they see and hear in the media, so saying "f*** the media" is shooting yourself in the foot isn't it?

I don't think even Tony Abbott is dumb enough to think that the way he is portrayed in the media is irrelevant or that it has no bearing on his race for PM.

He reactions and stumbling, awkward responses aren't representative of someone who treats the media with disdain though are they? It's more like he doesnt know what he's talking about. If, as a politician (someone who gets paid to argue for a living), the best Abbott can do is stare blankly or repeat the same answer over and over again it doesn't really seem he is astute, insightful, clever or able to 'play the game' with any degree of competency.

So my question remains unanswered, not surprisingly. How will he manage the tough questions on the international stage?
06:17pm 05/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19865 posts
Manay average every day Australians in very lowly paid unskilled dead end jobs have made those very same points fpot. Don't need to be part of the commentariat to observe Gillard's hypocrisy.
06:18pm 05/05/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22655 posts
The 'f*** the media' defence is just the cognitive dissonance required to support the LNP.
06:18pm 05/05/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19866 posts
IncrEdible_vEgetable: the media is only out for one thing - a quotable quote. they don't give a s*** about pollies - they are there to catch them out.

tony has always had a reputation for having a bit of a temper - not as bad as Rudd's throwing hairdressers and scream at staff etc. tony's temper is more directed atv the media who he knows is too smart by half. Howard was very much the same, in that he went onto interviews he talked about what he wanted to talk about.

Gillard has this habit of putting herself in front of the media for 30 min press conferfences. The media are not going to run 30 mins of that media conference. They are going to run 20 secs tops - that single f*** up the interviewee makes. Why do it to yourself....
06:23pm 05/05/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
211 posts
All other discussions aside for a second, I wonder if infi and the other Lib supporters on here would like to comment on this collection of quite frankly embarrassing media clips of Tony Abbott "deer in the headlights" approach to answering legitimate and relevant questions?

Abbott aka The Stunned mullet

Like any good salesperson, politicians are usually masters of spin, handling tough questions and general filibustering. I'm interested in how the Libs might defend/explain Abbott's "stunned mullet" approach to dealing with media questions. Are you confident that he is the best person to represent Australia in the international arena or do you think he might end up looking like a colossal d******* if he ever has to answer tough questions?

I mean personality wise, compared to someone like Paul Keating or even (loathe as I am to admit it) Johnny Howard, Abbott comes across as someone who might have been dropped on his head as a baby don't you think? It's like the cogs are turning a little too slow or something.

I imagine he constantly that thing where he gets really cranky with himself on his way back to the office..."Oh gosh darn it! I know what I should have said!"



Tony Abbot dodging questions.............. i'm sure he is the only politician who does that /rollseyes

Gillard is worse, i don't even bother listening to her speak anymore because all she does is read from her spin script and just repeats "Mr Abbot" 10000000 times without answering a single question.

The video is full of footage from the 7pm project which is a confirmed left-wing Labor supporting show, hence why they have weekly attack segments on Tony Abbot.

Anyone notice the contradiction in Gillard's own paradigm?


Wow, fpot criticizing Gillard? Pigs must fly. I didn't think it was possible.
07:31pm 05/05/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
9144 posts
Why shouldn't it have consisted of that? Labor governments whether they be Federal or state ALWAYS end in chaos with mass amounts of debt and the economy down the crapper. We have seen it in QLD, NSW, Victoria and guess what, it's never going to change. I don't know why people even consider Labor as a serious alternative government anymore.

It's like jumping off a cliff, you know what the outcome will be yet you still do it.
Maybe this is because both current parties that win major votes are so bad that you have to actually choose a lesser of two evils? It also offers choice in who will be elected to govern our country.
07:46pm 05/05/13 Permalink
Nukleuz
Perth, Western Australia
296 posts
Nukleuz how do you feel about WA contributing massively more than they get back via GST distribution ?
The weak Education funding offer that was made ?

WA gets a raw deal from Federal Governments be they Coalition or ALP.


That's an interesting point. I look at it like this; for a long time WA was a dragnet on the Australian economy being propped up by other states economies (notably at the time, Victoria and New South Wales) while we were still establishing our own economy (remember mining wasn't what it is now) and working on deals with both China and Japan (gas and ores).

Seems tit for tat for me and I'm not falling in line with the uneducated bogans earning six figures on mines who are making all the noise. They only see as far as the ends of their noses and it's a bit hard to take them seriously.

When the feast ends we'll again be dependent on other states unless we get a government who is a serious forward thinker in regards to infrastructure and education improvements.

Why shouldn't it have consisted of that?


Because I don't want a government that does nothing. WA is still just a big mining town and when the mining feast turns to famine we need to be stronger in the areas that are lacking (which are all not mining related) so we don't become a dragnet on the Australian economy once again.

Labor's policies at the last election were the ones that would have delivered that more than the Liberal policies. How could I not vote that way? Some of us have to vote for the betterment of the country and not our self interests.
09:03pm 05/05/13 Permalink
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