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Why is it costing $1.2b to fix qld health payroll?
RockitMan
Brisbane, Queensland
6455 posts
This has been puzzling me and was hoping some of you guys in the IT industry could help;

Everywhere is reporting it will cost $1.2b to fix the QLD health payroll bungle. I'm no maths expert but that would be 12,000 software engineers being paid $100k each for a year to rack that up.

Sure there's obviously been a lot of man-power used fixing up all the wrong payments but 1.2b? Where's the money going?
09:49pm 05/04/13 Permalink
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09:49pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
35460 posts
i always estimate high with any job my team take on.

im sure its just that (times 10)
09:51pm 05/04/13 Permalink
DK
Brisbane, Queensland
825 posts
You sure that number is not to pay people back?
09:57pm 05/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1385 posts
LNP Accountancy, everything has to make a profit.

Oh and don't forget that Newman claimed that 22% of Brisbane roads were flood damaged........
10:23pm 05/04/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4031 posts
I believe it's due to global warming.

Nerf, sheerobesity, fpot, infi, and loutl should be able to confirm/deny this however they may have differing opinions.
10:33pm 05/04/13 Permalink
euphoria
Gold Coast, Queensland
2087 posts
IBM + Accenture = lots of meetings, documentation, fancy diagrams, and little quality code.

Stuff isn't rocket science and yet they royally screwed it up. They're an embarrassment to IT professionals and, yet, guess who large corporations and governments will run to when they need stuff in the future? You guessed it, the same posers in suits.

*not bitter at all :P
10:43pm 05/04/13 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3014 posts
They will probably spend most of that doing feasibility and environmental impact studies.
10:55pm 05/04/13 Permalink
natslovR
Sydney, New South Wales
8156 posts
I came in here to say Assventure too.

They could easily make anything cost that much. And then you'd need to hire internal staff to fix it, but that wouldn't be included in the 1.2 billion.
11:09pm 05/04/13 Permalink
HerbalLizard
Brisbane, Queensland
5757 posts
I am going to go with outsourced consultancy huge amount of buzzwords and someone from Accenture said you guys need some oracle licensing to go with your sack of s*** SAP offering
11:10pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Bah
Brisbane, Queensland
4909 posts
I don't get how a company can sell you something that doesn't work then charge you to fix it?
11:16pm 05/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10993 posts
I'd get it done for 1.1 billion
11:17pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5866 posts
It's not going to an army of 12K software developers, the bulk of it is the ongoing costs associated with processing payroll using a piss poor system delivered by IBM and Corptech (QSS). I remember reading in a report from the Auditor-General in 2010 that blame lay with all parties involved (Qld Health, IBM & subcontractor) due to communications problems during the implementation. The inadequacies of the system involve a significant amount of manual processes and is compounded by the obscene complexity involved in all the QH awards and entitlements.
They knew the system was broken when they pushed the big red GO button but reports are they were forced to because they were getting desperate - the previous system wasn't going to be able to handle the next FY cutover.

The breakdown is as follows:
A tad over 1 billion dollars in payroll processing costs over 8 years (FY10-FY17)
220 million in fixing the broken system
25 million set aside to decide whether to keep plugging away or scrap the whole lot and start again.

It's ludicrous that IBM gets to charge around $250M to fix something that was initially quoted as a $7M contract, but that's a simple project oversight & incompetence issue on QH's behalf.

Read the KPMG audit report from 2012 & the QAO report from 2010:

I'd get it done for 1.1 billion

QFT, toss me a cool billion and you'll get a s*** hot payroll system for sure.
11:26pm 05/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10994 posts
that would be 12,000 software engineers being paid $100k each for a year to rack that up


More likely there were heaps of guys getting paid $500k to do nothing but ponce around going "I reckon that menu should look sharper".
11:40pm 05/04/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7540 posts
I believe it's due to global warming.

Nerf, sheerobesity, fpot, infi, and loutl should be able to confirm/deny this however they may have differing opinions.

Come on, fpot and I never start conversations on these topics - we just call out bulls*** and misinformation. I'll accept my forum award at the next ceremony.

As for the accenture thing, I know a guy who worked there for years in Brisbane, I may investigate if he knows anything about this apparent mess one day...
12:31am 06/04/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1387 posts
I believe it's due to global warming.



No, it's the carbon tax....
01:11am 06/04/13 Permalink
diese1
Brisbane, Queensland
304 posts
Any SAP programmers/functional ppl on here?

They probably can explain why it costs so much.
02:40am 06/04/13 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
9989 posts
thank gawd the Liberals are here to fix this statewide IT problem instead of looking at the continued easy ways that the public don't know about and milk them for all they're worth like other politicians were logged doing..

oh wait... the problem involves computer systems and logging... hmmmm


02:43am 06/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19714 posts
Labor's lasting legacy of building a better state....
02:46am 06/04/13 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
21664 posts
all those cupcakes for lunch add up you know
02:55am 06/04/13 Permalink
euphoria
Gold Coast, Queensland
2088 posts
More likely there were heaps of guys getting paid $500k to do nothing but ponce around going "I reckon that menu should look sharper".
lol, so true.

It's appalling how much waste there is in IT. Too many poser and wannabes have inserted themselves into the process. I've seen trivial tasks (less than an hour's work) outsourced to companies for almost $100k for delivery in weeks rather than the hours it should be, all because the senior IT manager used to work (or is on the board of) said outsource company.

And pro tip for senior IT management success: massively over-quote any project so that when you come in under that (but still much higher than it would have taken if done by pros), you'll get a pat on the back for genius cost saving! Huzzah!
09:43am 06/04/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3889 posts
the reason is because the outsourced indian programers are very hard on keyboards, 1bil of that is purely keyboard costs
10:19am 06/04/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4032 posts
the reason is because the outsourced indian programers are very hard on keyboards, 1bil of that is purely keyboard

It's all starting to come together.......

thermites mate is on the IBM fix it team on the side, while reading posts here on global warming and carbon tax!

No wonder he's smashing that keyboard.
10:34am 06/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10995 posts
hhahaha
11:14am 06/04/13 Permalink
Crunch
Perth, Western Australia
1112 posts
IBM + Accenture = lots of meetings, documentation, fancy diagrams, and little quality code. Stuff isn't rocket science and yet they royally screwed it up. They're an embarrassment to IT professionals and, yet, guess who large corporations and governments will run to when they need stuff in the future? You guessed it, the same posers in suits. *not bitter at all :P

Well IT projects fail for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that you don't know what you don't know. Problem is, when you're tendering for jobs this size you have little understanding of the actual situation on the ground until you start digging around, and therein lies the issue. When companies ask you to tender they, of course, want some idea of cost and an idea of how you're going to do it so the price you submit then becomes the line in the sand but when you get the gig you get in there and realise things are way worse than what you imagined and it's going to cost more. This, and the fact IBM charge out their "senior" guys at $2600/day, doesn't take long to add up.

As an independent IT consultant myself, here's a slide I like to refer to when things go to s***;

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Y7WUZOahSbI/UV-DCnu-VjI/AAAAAAAABOI/WZPSkXa93q8/s617/consultingdemotivator.jpg
01:08pm 06/04/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10997 posts
IBM charge out their "senior" guys at $2600/day


That's the thing isn't it, it's not just their wages, it's all the cream that IBM and any other companies involved keep for themselves.
02:17pm 06/04/13 Permalink
SheerObesity
Melbourne, Victoria
167 posts
IBM + Accenture = lots of meetings, documentation, fancy diagrams, and little quality code.Stuff isn't rocket science and yet they royally screwed it up. They're an embarrassment to IT professionals and, yet, guess who large corporations and governments will run to when they need stuff in the future? You guessed it, the same posers in suits.*not bitter at all :P


Exactly. All the meetings consultations, 7 people to do 1 persons job etc. It all racks up.
03:05pm 06/04/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
943 posts
To give you an idea of just how ridiculous IBM are, I was quoted close to 6 grand to patch 2 servers at a bank. They didn't have to rack the servers, I did that, they just had to check 2 ports were activated on the switch and run some cat5 down to them.
04:37pm 06/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5868 posts
^ To be fair, IBM has negotiated a special deal - if you bought those patch cables directly from Monster they'd have cost 10 grand.
04:53pm 06/04/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7812 posts
It's not going to an army of 12K software developers,

Well of course not.

I work at Melbourne Uni on one of their most important systems, and here is a list of people who sat around in a meeting for the project I was responsible for recently, as the sole developer:
- 1x Software Engineer
- 1x Business Analyst
- 1x Project Manager
- 1x Development Manager
- 1x Area manager
- 2x Business Stakeholders
- 2x Support staff
And one or two others.

I kid you not, of 12 people in the room for this meeting about the product I'm responsible for, there was a single developer resource assigned to the project.

Experience wise, I'm capable of filling at the very least the first four roles listed. The reporting lines in some large organisations become basically insane.
04:54pm 06/04/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5869 posts
Crikey, I hope you proposed a few ducks so at least they could pretend to add value.
05:25pm 06/04/13 Permalink
Crusher
Sydney, New South Wales
1257 posts
Probably 1.1 billion was in Oracle licensing costs
06:20pm 06/04/13 Permalink
mongie
Brisbane, Queensland
7660 posts
Consultants charging hundreds of dollars an hour and expensive licensing...

We get SAP consultants that cost 2-3k per day...
06:46pm 06/04/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4033 posts
Pretty much any sort of consultancy is a licence to print money. I did a 6 month stint doing BD for a Occ Hygiene consultancy and our guys were up to $2300 a day.
07:34pm 06/04/13 Permalink
diese1
Brisbane, Queensland
305 posts
I work at Melbourne Uni on one of their most important systems, and here is a list of people who sat around in a meeting for the project I was responsible for recently, as the sole developer:
- 1x Software Engineer
- 1x Business Analyst
- 1x Project Manager
- 1x Development Manager
- 1x Area manager
- 2x Business Stakeholders
- 2x Support staff
And one or two others.


I highly doubt you can get away with that small of a team for a huge HR/payroll implementation such as this. I assume this would a huge amount of users (all of QLD health staff ranging from janitors/security to Nurses/DR's) So say 250,000+ users?

Previous workplace Department of education for a certain state where we upgraded (basically reimplemented due to such an old version) cost around $90mil - which blew out by 3 years so i guess triple that. Their requirements would have been alot less though due to everything being already standardised from a business point of view.

We had subcontracted oracle
- 10 developers oracle + 4-5 from original consultancy group
- 5 functional team from oracle 4 from original consultancy group
- 3 dba's/infrustructure dudes from oracle 3 from consultancy company.

At least 10 ppl from the business which formed the test team/UAT.

3-4 project managers/stake holders etc.

I was there during my junior days and i was being contracted out for $1500 per day.
I imagine the seniors tech/func were 3-5k per day at least (seeing as they themselves pocket $1k of that).

Also all this being done in peoplesoft the cheaper(? Definitely less popular) competitor product to SAP.

So i can see how it would blow out to the billions over time...



Just to add to crazy blown out projects............ HOW does a friggen public
transport system blow out to 1.3 billion?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/100m-added-to-cost-of-myki-20110328-1cdht.html
09:34pm 06/04/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3891 posts
this is where the qld gov f***ed up as far as I can see

the aim was to have one payrole system to cover all the departments in the government

it went to tender, (where it may or may not of been handled right, but one thing is for sure, experts in the area were not on the right side of the table to make the best choice for us, the people)

then some bright spark, somewhere along the line thought, lets start the roll out with the biggest hardest department we can!

then, when IBM stated it wasn't ready to roll out, they did anyway
09:59pm 06/04/13 Permalink
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09:59pm 06/04/13 Permalink
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