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North Korea entering 'state of war' against South Korea
Linker
Brisbane, Queensland
1752 posts
North Korea says it has formally entered a "state of war" with South Korea and warns that any provocation will swiftly escalate into a nuclear conflict.
"As of now, inter-Korea relations enter a state of war and all matters between the two Koreas will be handled according to wartime protocol," the North said in a statement on Saturday attributed to all government bodies and institutions.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-korea-entering-state-of-war-against-south-korea-20130330-2h02v.html#ixzz2P0WVFVlg

If you read the article and commentary it doesn't seem as dramatic as the introductory paragraph, but still a notable act.
06:53pm 30/03/13 Permalink
system
Internet
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06:53pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13477 posts
Don't they do this every year or so.

Unless North Korea actually do something it is just their annual sabre rattling.
07:25pm 30/03/13 Permalink
HERMITech
Brisbane, Queensland
8185 posts
Unfortunately no, this is beyond the usual sabre rattling and if this resumes into full conflict, expect hundreds of thousands of casualties.

I'm sad to say that this should be stopped before it occurs.

07:38pm 30/03/13 Permalink
carson
Gippsland, Victoria
1805 posts
07:56pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Karmadelik
Brisbane, Queensland
231 posts
aparently the north's going through major food shortages, the poverty line are just dropping like flies as they're living off grass. Kinda sad as the North's 'government' have very few options other than war. China doesn't want anything to do with them now and since the economic sanctions its getting pretty bad.
07:57pm 30/03/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10965 posts
wouldn't the north korean miltary be teeming with CIA and other such operatives?
08:04pm 30/03/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10053 posts
08:07pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3848 posts
Unfortunately no, this is beyond the usual sabre rattling and if this resumes into full conflict, expect hundreds of thousands of casualties.

I'm sad to say that this should be stopped before it occurs.



it comes from the US doing more sabre rattliing prior to this, like flying B2's around, and other "shows of force"

also, china and russia have started to build up and rattle a few sabres as well, it is worth remembering that the US haven't gone to a war and won that they started, other than the civil war that is, but they also lost that (WW1 and WW2 they came in late to assist, not there from the start,)
08:12pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Vash
3710 posts
North is getting desperate. All this postering is purely to try and get SK/USA to back down to avoid a conflict, and give them more money to continue this puppet show.
Time to let loose and get it over with IMO, it's going to happen sooner or later.
08:14pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7795 posts
Yeah, North Korea have basically stripmined what little resources they have, and noone will import to them anymore. The only chance they'd have of making land arible would be if they gave up half the country to Israel.

So given they're completely out of minerals, their last-ditch is to zerg South Korea, and hope the bloody Terrans don't get involved as they always do.
Hah. Like that'll happen.
08:34pm 30/03/13 Permalink
reload!
Brisbane, Queensland
7270 posts
war of independence, spanish–american war, philo-american war.
more recently, gulf wars, afghanistan.

US victories.
08:41pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13724 posts
it is worth remembering that the US haven't gone to a war and won that they started

They won Gulf War I and II decisively. This is undeniable, historic fact.

It was the nation and society rebuilding bit they f***ed up.
08:42pm 30/03/13 Permalink
TicMan
Melbourne, Victoria
8554 posts
If I didn't have any resources left and my population was poor then war to take what you don't have is probably the only choice. I hope EA/Maxis don't screw up patching it in.
08:56pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7796 posts
If I didn't have any resources left and my population was poor then war to take what you don't have is probably the only choice. I hope EA/Maxis don't screw up patching it in.

Actually, I recommend we let EA take complete control of the NK armed forces.
09:01pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3850 posts
They won Gulf War I and II decisively. This is undeniable, historic fact.It was the nation and society rebuilding bit they f***ed up.



not a war they started, they team that they supported got f***ed up, war started, the UN/US steped in to help
09:08pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Nukleuz
Perth, Western Australia
283 posts
"You no provoke. We fire missiles into water! Provoke again, we fire more missiles into water!" -Kim Jong Un

There'll be lots of cheap parking space in that part of the world if those NK idiots do more than rattle the broken sabre and dare fire a single shot at South Korea or attempt a missile launch at the US.
09:15pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3851 posts
it would be honestly good for the US to enter a war that has support from the people
09:20pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13478 posts
What happens if a war does break out and NK gets cained, leaving the South to take it. All those people that live in the North, what will happen of them? It isn't exactly their fault they are living in a massive dictatorship.
09:21pm 30/03/13 Permalink
qmass
Queensland
10566 posts
What happens if a war does break out and NK gets cained, leaving the South to take it. All those people that live in the North, what will happen of them? It isn't exactly their fault they are living in a massive dictatorship.
If its a proper war, the civilian population of NK will probably starve to death long before peace.

There is no doubt that war ends in victory for the south and america, the humanitarian toll will be horrific, thus war needs to be avoided.
09:29pm 30/03/13 Permalink
mental
Brisbane, Queensland
3870 posts
Off to China, which is why China has been so supportive for so long, they can't and don't want that.
09:32pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3161 posts
They've been at war since the 50's.

What happens if a war does break out and NK gets cained, leaving the South to take it. All those people that live in the North, what will happen of them? It isn't exactly their fault they are living in a massive dictatorship.

I expect they will become Koreans once again, they have no real love for their dictator, I think they would celebrate. Would be pretty hard on South Korean infrastructure though.

There'll be lots of cheap parking space in that part of the world if those NK idiots do more than rattle the broken sabre and dare fire a single shot at South Korea or attempt a missile launch at the US.

They did that a few years ago, killed four people. They also sank one of their ships. Will take the shelling of Seoul to really kick it off.
09:36pm 30/03/13 Permalink
DM
Gold Coast, Queensland
5137 posts
If you threaten to nuke the US multiple times after seeing how they reacted to some planes flying into buildings, you're gonna have a bad time. I mean their military is bigger than the next 12 - 16 counties combined but by all means NK don't worry, you got this all on your own.
09:44pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3852 posts
If you threaten to nuke the US multiple times after seeing how they reacted to some planes flying into buildings, you're gonna have a bad time. I mean their military is bigger than the next 12 - 16 counties combined but by all means NK don't worry, you got this all on your own.



no they dont, NK has just of a million active soliders, and the US just under 1.5

also, china has a much bigger standing army, and is on the expand in both training and tech

hell, combine russia and china, and honestly the rest of the western world would have a hard time
09:58pm 30/03/13 Permalink
FraktuRe
Gold Coast, Queensland
4464 posts
DM is correct on Military budget, not military size.
10:10pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13725 posts
not a war they started, they team that they supported got f***ed up, war started, the UN/US steped in to help

Ignoring the fact that you barely make sense ... which wars do you count then?

hell, combine russia and china, and honestly the rest of the western world would have a hard time

Military budgets:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/9b6b4ac6234a38d7f61757290055617d.png
10:11pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7478 posts
There was a TED talk released recently by a girl who escaped N Korea, and later got her family out.



There's no mention of how difficult it was integrating, aside from things like language/skill training, but I don't really imagine that it'd be the huge difficulty that some seem to expect. They seem to be as exposed to technology as many rural areas, and I suspect that they're reasonably well aware about the state of global civilization (they're used to electricity, tvs, etc to a lesser extent). Just because somebody hasn't done something as much as somebody else doesn't make it an impossibly daunting and foreign thing to them, I mean none of us have probably flown planes, but it wouldn't blow our neanderthal minds if we gained access to the option.

Tbh my guess is that the biggest danger would be to their egos. There was a guy who escaped from a camp who described that going to south korea, with its enormous buildings and wealth, left him feeling pathetic and depressed.
10:11pm 30/03/13 Permalink
funky
Brisbane, Queensland
1771 posts
perhaps a rather prescient time for me to rethink my trip through south korea, although that was for completely unrelated circumstances
10:12pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13726 posts
Heh not sure if it counts as prescient to rethink taking a holiday in a declared war zone?
10:15pm 30/03/13 Permalink
funky
Brisbane, Queensland
1772 posts
it wasn't a declared war zone a few days ago when i changed my plans :)
10:18pm 30/03/13 Permalink
TicMan
Melbourne, Victoria
8555 posts
I can't imagine Russia and China supporting NK in a war against SK, the US and allies. There is too much economic goodies to lose if they did.
10:32pm 30/03/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4020 posts
What happens if a war does break out and NK gets cained, leaving the South to take it. All those people that live in the North, what will happen of them? It isn't exactly their fault they are living in a massive dictatorship.

The problem is that the North have such an isolation policy that the majority of their citizens wouldn't have a clue what to expect.

They will see technology and have such an overload of information like they've never experienced.

Things we take for granted, they will have generations that have never seen them.

Apart from all this is the major humanitarian issues from years of famine.

They are the last true isolationist society so the outcomes will be interesting to see if they ever cave in.

Edit: I'd really love to see it in my lifetime.
10:41pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3853 posts
what about myanmar (burma) crazymorton, they are still pretty isolated

hoggy, my point is the the US doesn't really have the great history of winning wars that it makes out,

hell, ask most merican's who won the veit war, and they often think it was them, or a tie (cause pulling out is so a tie)
also, those charts dont show the true vaule

the US work alot of its spending and reserch into those figures, not to mention that the cost of training, and feeding 1 US solider is like 12 times more costly that training and feeding 1 chinese solider (based on the same level of training)

all that graph shows is that the US have a very costly army compared to other armies of a like size/power
10:52pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7479 posts
US have a very costly army compared to other armies of a like size/power

All the world's aircraft carriers:

http://daveporter.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345175a969e201543531b63b970c-500wi
10:58pm 30/03/13 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3854 posts
nerf, that is out of date, and incorrect,

us only have 11, and one (albeit large) weapons system does not show the overall size of an armed force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service

if we are going to select one weapon system in which to base cost/might, lets go something like tanks
that would be a win to russia, 22000 to 9000 for the US
based on man power, that would be china,
on nuke, russia
on planes, currently the US, but china is catching up fast, and of more concern they are switching roles, from a purely short range defencive type, to a power projection type
11:03pm 30/03/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19670 posts
Just in time for Homefront 2.

What happens if a war does break out and NK gets cained, leaving the South to take it. All those people that live in the North, what will happen of them? It isn't exactly their fault they are living in a massive dictatorship.


Both South Korea and North Korea had been discussing unification for some time. I think the South would gladly absorb NK, it's like an East Germany situation.
11:24pm 30/03/13 Permalink
reload!
Brisbane, Queensland
7271 posts
by your definition, copuis, US didn't lose Vietnam because they didn't start that war either.
11:32pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7480 posts
nerf, that is out of date, and incorrect, us only have 11,

Those 11 are the middle column. Even not counting the US's smaller ones (which most of the other country's are even smaller than), the US is still leagues ahead.
and one (albeit large) weapons system does not show the overall size of an armed forcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_serviceif we are going to select one weapon system in which to base cost/might, lets go something like tanksthat would be a win to russia, 22000 to 9000 for the USbased on man power, that would be china, on nuke, russiaon planes, currently the US, but china is catching up fast, and of more concern they are switching roles, from a purely short range defencive type, to a power projection type

This is true, but I was responding to that you had said that the US was just spending more per soldier for the same numerical outcome. Additionally, technologically I doubt that China is on par, and reports have said that that the US has both the first and second largest air forces in the world, being the US Airforce and US Navy respectively.

None of it matters, since they all have nukes. Unless the US has already solved their lasering of nukes plans.
11:35pm 30/03/13 Permalink
parabol
Brisbane, Queensland
7534 posts
11:35pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13727 posts
Reload dude I have nfi what he really means here.

If you can't count gulf 2 as a war that the yanks started then what does?!
None of it matters, since they all have nukes. Unless the US has already solved their lasering of nukes plans.

While its alarming (especially for the east asia region) that NK has nukes, you can't really compare its arsenal and delivery vectors to that of the USA.
11:55pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
6832 posts
So when does the new series of M*A*S*H start?
11:56pm 30/03/13 Permalink
Viper119
UK
1952 posts
As I understood it you can't just take budget and size as the defacto measures; it's about the capabilities. From what I've seen the USA has a ridiculously greater military capability (no doubt due to their immense spending) then all the rest.

So for example whilst China has a bigger standing army, they also don't have anything else like proper infrastructure, recent and reliable arms technology, long-range weaponry, a proper command and control system and structure.

I read an interesting article in the Economist on it a while back, as China are definitely trying to change up. It compares their military capabilities, have a read: http://www.economist.com/node/21552193

http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/print-edition/20120407_FBC936_0.png

It get's a lot more complicated, but I reckons the USA would probably prevail, certainly if they had some other countries on their side like the UK, bits of Europe and Australia.

Russia's situation in respect of military capability has apparently only continued to degrade, despite the size.

I remember reading that NK has a massive artillery setup on the border ready to destroy Soul at a moments notice, the whole thing looks like a strategic nightmare.

Also on the US's past wars, it looks like they've been in a bucketload more then anyone else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States
11:58pm 30/03/13 Permalink
qmass
Queensland
10567 posts

I remember reading that NK has a massive artillery setup on the border ready to destroy Soul at a moments notice
This is untrue. From reading since this latest round of bulls***, NK has limited super long range artillery and is only able to reach the outskirts of Seoul. SK also has monthly drills to practice getting the populace into bunkers, from an anecdote (so unverified) it took something like 5mins to get everyone down below - that's EPIC! if true.
12:12am 31/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7481 posts
None of it matters, since they all have nukes. Unless the US has already solved their lasering of nukes plans.

While its alarming (especially for the east asia region) that NK has nukes, you can't really compare its arsenal and delivery vectors to that of the USA.

Nah I meant in regards to the US vs Russia vs China etc. The discussion was interesting, but ultimately if any of those go to war with each other, there won't be any winners...
12:28am 31/03/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
619 posts
Actually, I recommend we let EA take complete control of the NK armed forces.


That'll be $5 DLC for your uniform, another $5 for your weapon and $1 per round shot.

Give it a few months and we'll have the "medical center" expansion pack for another $49.


Anyway, I've discovered the REAL reason why NK declared a state of war:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d110/WirlWind494/psy.jpg
02:19am 31/03/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3162 posts
If you threaten to nuke the US multiple times after seeing how they reacted to some planes flying into buildings, you're gonna have a bad time. I mean their military is bigger than the next 12 - 16 counties combined but by all means NK don't worry, you got this all on your own.

Potential for an actual war combined with NK having no natural resources means the US won't do a thing.
03:43am 31/03/13 Permalink
qmass
Queensland
10568 posts
yeah but think about how many iphones they could flog in NK once its liberated...
05:32am 31/03/13 Permalink
BOHEMION
Brisbane, Queensland
595 posts
Does the world really have any tollerance for this though? I mean Nuclear war and all..
10:05am 31/03/13 Permalink
Crusher
Sydney, New South Wales
1251 posts
Does the world really have any tollerance for this though? I mean Nuclear war and all..
Only at the gay bar
10:07am 31/03/13 Permalink
BOHEMION
Brisbane, Queensland
597 posts
Now tell me do ya, a do ya have any money?
11:14am 31/03/13 Permalink
taggs
6110 posts
Reload dude I have nfi what he really means here.


It was good for a chuckle.
11:23am 31/03/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1312 posts
I like to think than NK realises they're going to get absolutely decimated if they start this war... It's not like china is going to risk ruining economic ties with the west going in to bat for these nut jobs. It will take a revolution of the people or a desert storm style incursion to put an end to this bulls***.

And they will probably face the same problem as they did in Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan - storming in there with tanks and bombing them to hell isn't the problem - it's the aftermath and trying to rebuild/stabilise.

It's not going to be fun trying to 'normalise' 25 million people that believe they're god-like leader doesn't poop and was born in a unicorn cave on top of a mountain.(maybe that was KJ Ill, not sure lol)
11:58am 31/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13729 posts
If NK does something really egregious (like nuking a civilian city) there's no way in the world that China or Russia will back them. The threat of the major players going balls to the wall at each other because Kim the Younger couldn't help push the button is very low IMO.
12:18pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Viper119
UK
1953 posts
Apparently the US has around 28,000 armed forces personnel in South Korea already, and 55,000 in Japan.

The 7th fleet is there also, which is one of their super duper battle fleets.

The Seventh Fleet is the United States Navy's permanent forward projection force operating forward deployed in Yokosuka, Japan, with units positioned near Japan and South Korea. It is a component force of the United States Pacific Fleet. At present, it is the largest of the forward-deployed U.S. fleets, with 60 to 70 ships, 300 aircraft and 40,000 Navy and Marine Corps personnel. With the support of its Task Force Commanders, it has three major assignments:

Joint Task Force command in a natural disaster or joint military operation,
Operational command of all naval forces in the region, and
Defense of the Korean Peninsula. In 1994, 7th Fleet was assigned the additional responsibility as Commander, Combined Naval Component Command for the defense of South Korea.


Interesting sidenote, the 7th fleet was formed in Brisbane in 1943!

Seems like they're pretty ready no matter what happens, they basically got an entire combat ready army there.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Seventh_Fleet
12:40pm 31/03/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10054 posts
Usually NK make lots of noise.
America ignores them and China calls for 5 party talks.
NK demands 2 party talks because it sees SK as being occupied by America.
NK goes quiet.
rinse and repeat.

This time America is provoking NK.
So whats changed ?
I wonder if the NK leadership is fracturing.
Decades of watching NK troop movements can sometimes reveal problems in NK.

If a Coup was iminent in NK there would be unusual Troop movements around Pyongyang which America would nave noticed.

To understand NK you need to know what happened in the Korean War.

It is now believed that the population north of the imposed 38th Parallel lost nearly a third its population of 8 – 9 million people during the 37-month long “hot” war, 1950 – 1953, perhaps an unprecedented percentage of mortality suffered by one nation due to the belligerance of another.”


http://www.globalresearch.ca/know-the-facts-north-korea-lost-close-to-30-of-its-population-as-a-result-of-us-bombings-in-the-1950s/22131



12:55pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13730 posts
Know the facts, huh ... from the Centre for Research on Globalization, home to articles such as "False Flags, Fake Media Reporting, Deceiving the Public: Social Engineering and the 21st Century “Truth Emergency”"

Pass.
01:01pm 31/03/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10056 posts
Further reading...

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/AP_U.S._Okayed_Korean_War_Massacres_0705.html

http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/0503a_cumings-html/#axzz2P50I8Ly0

War Crimes are only ever committed by Countries that lose Wars.
Is it any wonder Countries strive for Nukes ?
01:25pm 31/03/13 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2054 posts
War Crimes are only ever committed by Countries that lose Wars.
Is it any wonder Countries strive for Nukes ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes
01:30pm 31/03/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10057 posts
right konstie how many of those ever faced trial ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

In the aftermath of the 1944 Malmedy massacre, in which 80 unarmed US military personnel were tortured by their German captors, a written order from Headquarters of the 328th US Army Infantry Regiment, dated 21 December 1944, stated: "No SS troops or paratroopers will be taken prisoner but [rather they] will be shot on sight."[17] Major-General Raymond Hufft (U.S. Army) gave instructions to his troops not to take prisoners when they crossed the Rhine in 1945.
"After the war, when he reflected on the war crimes he authorized, he admitted, 'if the Germans had won, I would have been on trial at Nuremberg instead of them.


says it all.
02:16pm 31/03/13 Permalink
funky
Brisbane, Queensland
1773 posts
no idea about north korea copuis, but having just been in myanmar, and while it is still comparatively isolated it is probably not nearly as bad as you think or nearly as bad as north korea from what i have seen. it is opening up something fierce at the moment, but there is obvious signs of japanese/korean company presence from years earlier (whitegoods/electronics/motor vehicles etc) whether they were illegally imported or not who knows, but s***loads of jap cars around. i think there was like a product launch of something when i was in mandalay because there were f*****g heaps of people wedged into this enormous mobile phone store looking at samsung phones. was also pretty weird seeing this matte black latest generation skyline tearing up a yangon street.

05:28pm 31/03/13 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2055 posts
right konstie how many of those ever faced trial ?

says it all.


righto mate, I can do that too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes



Corporal Donald Payne (born 9 September 1970)[24] is a former soldier of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment of the British Army who became the first member of the British armed forces to be convicted of a war crime under the provisions of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 when he pleaded guilty on 19 September 2006 to a charge of inhumane treatment.[25][26] He was jailed for one year and dismissed from the army as a result of his actions.[27]


My point is that it isn't always the losing side that gets done for war crimes.

Anyway, lets just agree to disagree and blame the Jews.
07:47pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Nukleuz
Perth, Western Australia
284 posts
So when does the new series of M*A*S*H start?


This time it's going to be a reality TV show situated in North Korea.
09:54pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Reverend Evil
Wynnum, Queensland
21287 posts
Why is North Korea so anti everything cool? Is there some reason they're so butthurt with the rest of the world and don't want to fit in?
10:01pm 31/03/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1313 posts
Why is North Korea so anti everything cool? Is there some reason they're so butthurt with the rest of the world and don't want to fit in?


Communism gone right lol
10:11pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2507 posts
They seem to be as exposed to technology as many rural areas, and I suspect that they're reasonably well aware about the state of global civilization (they're used to electricity, tvs, etc to a lesser extent). Just because somebody hasn't done something as much as somebody else doesn't make it an impossibly daunting and foreign thing to them, I mean none of us have probably flown planes, but it wouldn't blow our neanderthal minds if we gained access to the option. Tbh my guess is that the biggest danger would be to their egos. There was a guy who escaped from a camp who described that going to south korea, with its enormous buildings and wealth, left him feeling pathetic and depressed.


Strongly disagree nerf. We're talking about an entire populace thats faced severe propaganda for generations, hugely uneducated, suffering severe human rights violations.

You can't just 'throw them into the first world after liberation' and be all happy about it. This type of thinking is precisely why Iraq got so f***ed up in the aftermath. You need comprehensive, long-term contingency planning on supplementing and training an entire economy and populace.

This will be a costly war.
10:11pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7483 posts
I don't mean throw them into democracy, but from the sounds of things from people who have escaped, I don't think that the regime falling would necessarily open up some naive dark ages population. There are people who have been living there since before Korea broke in two, and not long back there were some visitations between family members who had been divided on each side. The situation may be rough, but there is private communication travelling in and out as shown in the TED talk. Hell, in her town, she could see a Chinese town just across the small river. Somebody living in a country town might be exposed to the same level of modern civilization as many north koreans.
10:22pm 31/03/13 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10970 posts
Is there some reason they're so butthurt with the rest of the world and don't want to fit in?


Korea all used to be one thing, the Korean Empire, and then Japan took over, but after Japan got a bad rep in WW2, the Soviet Union occupied the north and America occupied the south. This led to two governments that each wanted the whole of Korea and hence the Korean war which apparently 'never ended'. After the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 90s, the grandfather of the current d******* created a new political ideology and his family has ruled ever since.
His theory seems to be mostly about having Korea be self-contained: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

10:27pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2508 posts
also a good idea to read over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War. A very important part of history that often gets looked over.

Somebody living in a country town might be exposed to the same level of modern civilization as many north koreans.


You have an interesting idea of what a country town is like, but as I understand your point is basically that it's at least possible for NK to be able to be re-skilled, re-educated and reintegrated.

I would argue that currently, without heavy Chinese intervention, it is not.

I'd also put good money that there's been at least 10000x more effort and planning behind disabling NK's military than behind contingency plans for the aftermath.
10:47pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7484 posts
I don't mean that it won't be hard, it just seems that it's sort of become an established myth explaining why no nation wants the war, when it could just be an over-dramatic non-fact-based hypothesis which sort of ran away with itself.
11:11pm 31/03/13 Permalink
reload!
Brisbane, Queensland
7273 posts
yeah what the hell?
they're still people with basic needs and desires, not a bunch of unintelligible drooling zombies.

when the dust clears some korean guy can hand them a bowl of rice, hyundai uniform and a copy of sc2.
11:28pm 31/03/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19675 posts
People are able to adjust to new situations remarkably.
11:39pm 31/03/13 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7485 posts
Well, at least, I haven't seen compelling evidence that they can't, which seems to get thrown around as a fact.
12:36am 01/04/13 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2509 posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Current_status
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea#Crisis_and_famine
North Korea has the highest percentage of military personnel per capita of any nation in the world, with approximately one enlisted soldier for every 25 citizens.
And then you put them through a war.

It's not that the people of NK can't change. It's that they will need help that they won't get.
02:06am 01/04/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3163 posts
Why is North Korea so anti everything cool? Is there some reason they're so butthurt with the rest of the world and don't want to fit in?

They're not, the people are kept isolated, ignorant and in fear at all times. The leadership does this because it serves them well personally. You think kim lives a hard life? He gets the easy road by walking on the backs of the people.
03:54am 01/04/13 Permalink
Crusher
Sydney, New South Wales
1254 posts
If only North Korea had oil...
09:56am 01/04/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13732 posts
If only North Korea had oil...

I don't think NK could take that much freedom.
10:01am 01/04/13 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
13480 posts
My question wasn't about how will the people adapt, of course they will. My question is when the inevitable bill hits the table, it seems rather unfortunate that North Koreans have to grind away paying it off when given the opportunity most of them may not even fight and would love to be part of the rest of the world.


I suppose though, even paying off a War Bill they will probably be less impoverished than they are now.
10:23am 01/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
8892 posts
Looks like North Korea have apparently given "the final all clear" to a nuclear strike on US and South Korea.
09:30am 04/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1316 posts
Looks like North Korea have apparently given "the final all clear" to a nuclear strike on US and South Korea.


They haven't got what they wanted yet - when someone gives them money and foodstuffs they'll probably pipe down a bit.
09:53am 04/04/13 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6224 posts
You don't cave in to a childs tantrum, the world shouldn't cave in to NKs either.

Call their bluff, see what happens.
10:03am 04/04/13 Permalink
Viper119
UK
1965 posts
I can't find the links now but I read a few articles today with experts on NK, SK and China all saying it was standard bluff from the NK and it's highly unlikely they'll do anything. They think the NK leadership knows an actual war would end their rule so they'd never do it.
10:35am 04/04/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7804 posts
You don't cave in to a childs tantrum, the world shouldn't cave in to NKs either.

Call their bluff, see what happens.

More often when a child throws a tantrum, the parent smacks them.

Time for North Korea to get a smack.

I do wish the three big countries would just march in though, and distribute as much food etc as North Koreans could hoard. Then just pull out "huh? That's not much food at all, just war rations!".

What makes is s***** is that North Koreans are completely shielded from what goes on in the real world. Much like China.
11:20am 04/04/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1372 posts
Much like China.
Have you been to China? I think you'll find the younger generation aren't as naive as you think. I worked in Guangzhou and yes you can criticise the Communist Government in China and people do as long as it's not standing atop a soapbox on the street corner and shouting "Overthrow the Government.".

The youngins are very much informed of the outside world and now travel quite a bit. They are very tech savvy and have no great loyalty to the communist party. I would say by the time the younger generation come of age China's political makeup will change dramatically.
11:31am 04/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1317 posts
Have you been to China? I think you'll find the younger generation aren't as naive as you think. I worked in Guangzhou and yes you can criticise the Communist Government in China and people do as long as it's not standing atop a soapbox on the street corner and shouting "Overthrow the Government.". The youngins are very much informed of the outside world and now travel quite a bit. They are very tech savvy and have no great loyalty to the communist party. I would say by the time the younger generation come of age China's political makeup will change dramatically.


+1 this exactly.
12:57pm 04/04/13 Permalink
reload!
Brisbane, Queensland
7274 posts
for a start, people are actually allowed to leave..
01:54pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Insom
Canada
4220 posts
time for "shock and awe" part deux
02:28pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7805 posts
Yeah... but the fact that they even still have the great firewall is a bad enough advertisement for them and what they stand for.
02:43pm 04/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1319 posts
Whats the next step for NK from here?

a) FIRE ZE MISSILES (and get roflstomped)
b) do nothing and get laughed at again
c) ????
03:57pm 04/04/13 Permalink
do0b
Brisbane, Queensland
4504 posts
c) declare a defeat of US forces and begin celebrations
04:35pm 04/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1320 posts
c) declare a defeat of US forces and begin celebrations


at first I lol'd but then I realised they have done this before with the boat they captured in the 70ish(not sure on date)... they carry on like they won a world war.
04:42pm 04/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
8911 posts
09:56pm 05/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10091 posts

China has moved a lot of gear to the western border including its crack elite forces and a large number of Aircraft.

Im even more certain a Coup is coming.

12:17am 06/04/13 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7697 posts
haven't we learned anything from history? the human race cannot and should not tolerate being held to nuclear ransom by dips*** leaders. Or have the human rights of millions trodden on by dictators.

these HK 'leaders'/clowns need to all be tried for crimes against humanity, hung and NK/SK can finally become one country again.

why does the world tolerate this bs
12:45am 06/04/13 Permalink
Auz_Guy
Brisbane, Queensland
466 posts
I'm more concerned that China's future political party will be made up entirely of people from the 'one-child-policy' generation.
03:02am 06/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1329 posts
haven't we learned anything from history? the human race cannot and should not tolerate being held to nuclear ransom by dips*** leaders. Or have the human rights of millions trodden on by dictators.

these HK 'leaders'/clowns need to all be tried for crimes against humanity, hung and NK/SK can finally become one country again.

why does the world tolerate this bs


No oil to liberate...

Iraq - MIGHT have WMD = roflstomped
NK - Asploded nukes and threatened U.S. = "pipe down lol"
08:32am 06/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1330 posts
Check out these series - they are split into multiple videos but there are links at the end to go to the next part.

08:54am 06/04/13 Permalink
Insom
Canada
4221 posts
hows all that afghanistan oil coming along
09:41am 06/04/13 Permalink
Viper119
UK
1970 posts
11:42pm 06/04/13 Permalink
Fish
Brisbane, Queensland
3022 posts
Somewhat related, Kimjongila:
01:11am 07/04/13 Permalink
Fireblood
Brisbane, Queensland
9797 posts
I'm flying to Seoul in 14 days......doh - hopefully it'll have blown over by then!
06:03am 07/04/13 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
3183 posts
I'm flying to Seoul in 14 days......doh - hopefully it'll have blown over by then!

Keep a video camera handy at all times, and remember when filming war footage, keep the camera steady, don't flinch and never film in portrait! Live Leak will thank you.
10:40am 07/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
643 posts
I'm flying to Seoul in 14 days......doh - hopefully it'll have blown over by then!


And by "blown over", did you mean "blown up"?

I kind of hope they DO launch, so the yanks can swat it out of the sky and we can all laugh at that silly small-man.
01:32pm 07/04/13 Permalink
Creepy
USA
2106 posts
So far, DFAT says ROK is still "Green"

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/South_Korea

Stay safe, Fireblood.
03:56pm 07/04/13 Permalink
Crakaveli
USA
6288 posts
I kind of hope they DO launch, so the yanks can swat it out of the sky and we can all laugh at that silly small-man.
You're keen for innocent civilians to die hey?
05:19pm 07/04/13 Permalink
Enska
Sydney, New South Wales
1974 posts
f*** yeah why not, I kill that many in Saints Row 3 i'm used to it.
05:52pm 07/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10095 posts
Things were going fine til Dennis Rodman visited.
What could he have possibly done ?

http://memeblender.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/kim-jong-un-dennis-rodman.jpg

06:23pm 07/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
644 posts
You're keen for innocent civilians to die hey?


Yes, because swatting a missile out of the sky with anti-missile systems totally kills tons of civilians, right?
08:37pm 07/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1331 posts
talk about procrastination!
09:29am 08/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22539 posts
There'd be a massive retaliation if NK actually launched at the US (or anyone) though.
09:48am 08/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19724 posts
It's a pantomime - Kim Jnr doesn't want the military to overthrow him so he wants to look tough. If NK actually attacked SK or US, the US would carpet bomb NK end to end and Kim Jnr would have his head shoved on a pike. Just think Iraq all over again.
10:01am 08/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
646 posts
There'd be a massive retaliation if NK actually launched at the US (or anyone) though.


If they're essentially helpless, I'm not so sure the US would be like "lets nuke the f*****s".

I think pretty much everyone knows that they're pretty impotent even if they launch something.

Doubt the US wants to get into another war (then again...) so soon after the last one, so they'll probably not actually retaliate in force until there's actually a threat.
10:37am 08/04/13 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
22540 posts
Well I guess we disagree, because I reckon if NK launched a missile at the US in a dream they'd have to wake up and apologise.
10:57am 08/04/13 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
16862 posts
i doubt the US would retaliate with nukes. that's just f*****g stupid.
11:54am 08/04/13 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1332 posts
Pretty sure this will all just blow over soon, they really are procrastinating. Been crapping on about firing the nukes non stop and it's just day after day of them moving things around... missile goes here by train, missile test scheduled for tomorrow, launch sites being prepared... yada yada ya... all bark no bite so far.... I don't really think there is a "right time" to fire their missile.. Would have done it by now if they were going too imo.
12:28pm 08/04/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10096 posts
01:04pm 08/04/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
18013 posts
this is boring, someone do something
01:07pm 08/04/13 Permalink
HERMITech
Brisbane, Queensland
8193 posts
Pehaps Kim wants it to escalate into open conflict once and for all so that they get their arses kicked good and proper and demonstrate to the party hardliners that the s*** they've been force fed over the years is a crock.

Once they've done being flogged, US comes in and rebuilds their impoverished arses, Kim saves face and hands over the hardliners in a deal.
02:16pm 08/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19725 posts
I don't think that's how it would play out, not even close.
02:22pm 08/04/13 Permalink
HERMITech
Brisbane, Queensland
8194 posts
^ Forgot to add /comic relief tags.
03:22pm 08/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19726 posts
it would be really funny if they found him then hung him in main sqaure.
03:30pm 08/04/13 Permalink
HERMITech
Brisbane, Queensland
8195 posts
04:13pm 08/04/13 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
8953 posts
Japan are getting their interceptors ready for an "imminent" threat. North Korea sure are drawing this out, though apparently they've moved their missiles to launch position.
01:06pm 11/04/13 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1513 posts
Live stream of North Korean TV

http://112.170.78.145:50000/chosun

Its not particularly stable, but pretty interesting.

It's a lot like Wag the Dog. Jong-un needs North Korea to think they're in a war.
01:14pm 11/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19754 posts
that is f*****g hilarious^
01:27pm 11/04/13 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1515 posts
Pretty much the same as our ABC, right infi :P
01:32pm 11/04/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19756 posts
ABC pretends to be impartial. I think Barry Cassidy tries to be impartial. But let's be honest, it's just a training ground for ALP candidates.
01:41pm 11/04/13 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
665 posts
Japan are getting their interceptors ready for an "imminent" threat. North Korea sure are drawing this out, though apparently they've moved their missiles to launch position.


I've given up following the news on the back and forth.

I figure someone will tell me if it ever actually comes to fruition. I didn't even get to the first class of the day on Sept 11 without 20 people saying "holy s***, you hear what happened to the twin towers!?"
02:38pm 11/04/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7827 posts
Surely I can't be the only one thinking "oh hurry up already.".

World to North Korea: S*** or get off the pot.
03:25pm 11/04/13 Permalink
DirtyApe
Brisbane, Queensland
973 posts
Why did the chicken cross the road?

To escape North Korea's long range missiles.
04:47pm 11/04/13 Permalink
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