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Gas powered Nurburgring 24 racer
ara
Sydney, New South Wales
2567 posts
Wired have a neat article on a Compressed Natural Gas powered race car VW have setup for the Nurburgring 24 enduro race.

VW is bringing a pair of CNG Sciroccos to the 'Ring. Each has a 2.0-liter turbocharged engine delivering almost 300 horsepower. Volkswagen had good luck with the Scirocco last year, clinching a one-two victory in the 2.0-liter turbo class, so here's wishing them luck.


Paging MrHardware.
10:11pm 24/04/09 Permalink
system
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10:11pm 24/04/09 Permalink
Corrupt
Brisbane, Queensland
1205 posts
Cool
11:53pm 24/04/09 Permalink
Wild Wizard
Toowoomba, Queensland
357 posts
CNG != LPG
12:08am 25/04/09 Permalink
Corrupt
Brisbane, Queensland
1206 posts
No it isn't the fuels are completely different
08:18am 25/04/09 Permalink
nF
Forum Hero
Wynnum, Queensland
15880 posts
11:52am 25/04/09 Permalink
ara
Sydney, New South Wales
2568 posts

From wiki

CNG is often confused with liquefied natural gas (LNG). While both are stored forms of natural gas, the key difference is that CNG is in compressed form, while LNG is in liquefied form. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of gasoline or petrol and the use of very high pressures (3000 to 4000 psi, or 205 to 275 bar).


Completely different is a bit of an exaggeration.
12:10pm 25/04/09 Permalink
Jim
Brisbane, Queensland
9592 posts
LNG != LPG
teehee
01:45pm 25/04/09 Permalink
Corrupt
Brisbane, Queensland
1207 posts
jim u tease
03:25pm 25/04/09 Permalink
scooby
Brisbane, Queensland
3667 posts
300hp front wheel drive :<
03:34pm 25/04/09 Permalink
MrHardware
Brisbane, Queensland
4791 posts
Paging MrHardware.
Reporting for duty.

Yeah that's awesome. Natural Gas will be the new way of the future once people adopt LPG more and more. In the late 90's, there were about half a dozen trial cabs in brisbane running dual fuel - but not petrol/LPG, but LPG/Natural Gas. I can't remember whether it was LNG or CNG, but i have a feeling it was LNG. Apparently it was 22c/ltr, but the economy was shocking, i'm talking something along the lines of 40L/100klms. Power was okay, but they just couldn't run a high enough compression ratio that would have made better advantage of the Natural Gas. Oh and the tank was friggin massive, like literally half a falcon boot gone, not just a quarter like with an LPG tank.

Once oil runs out, LPG and LNG/CNG will be the primary modes of fuelling for cars. If you notice nearly all council buses nowadays are CNG.

But yes you are right, LPG is propane and butane where as LNG/CNG is essentially methane.

last edited by MrHardware at 16:44:16 25/Apr/09
04:42pm 25/04/09 Permalink
Wild Wizard
Toowoomba, Queensland
358 posts
It is unlikely that anyone ran CNG/LPG duel fuel, there simply is not the space in a vehicle for both systems.

Now back in the 90's in SEQ there was a large number of Taxi's and courier drivers using CNG/Petrol.

Users had a key card linked to an account with Allgas and a key to unlock pumps after hours. Sites with a card reader in an external location (ie no inside a regular shop) could be used 24/7. We were billed monthly with the usual 30 days to pay, times were great.

CNG was cheap and I mean stupidly cheap, it did however have a small problem of low energy density when compared to LPG, thus LPG would give more k's per tank than CNG could. CNG also had other issues, it was stored at 3000PSI which is a stupidly high pressure and requires extremely strong tanks that weighed in around the 70KG mark.

Now combine low mileage per tank with the weight of a tank and you start to see the issue with this storage of Methane. (It did however only cost $6 in fuel to drive a stupid inefficient 5L V8 car from Toowoomba to Brisbane)

Enter LNG, this gives almost the same mileage per tank as Petrol burns far more cleanly with no, and I mean no smell from the exhaust. It however has it's own storage problem in that it is a cryogenic gas and is not very suitable for use in motor cars. It is however extremely useful in commercial vehicles where the vehicle is in use constantly and the vapour can not build up.

For the record Methane in LNG, CNG or low pressure gas is always measured in Cubic Meters and NOT in Litres.
05:29pm 25/04/09 Permalink
Jim
Brisbane, Queensland
9594 posts
mr hardware, how is natural gas the way of the future? Even now at current consumption levels, according to the ipcc it contributes at least 50% as much CO2 emissions as coal and oil do individually despite their vastly higher consumption levels
And after oil runs out, are you suggesting that the usable LPG that can be produced after the oil refining process is no longer an option, is somehow renewable?
01:00am 26/04/09 Permalink
MrHardware
Brisbane, Queensland
4794 posts
Yeah i think that co2 will become a vastly smaller problem once the oil's gone, and won't be a terribly big concern compared to what some people are saying the world will turn into after the oil.
LPG doesn't just come from the refining process as a byproduct. Yes that is one place it comes from, but it is also found in the ground.

WildWizard, wow. You're only the second person in the world i've met who actually has some real world experience with CNG for cabs/couriers.
My knowledge is secondhand and over three years old - i'm sorry for the innacuraces.
And yeah, apparently there was at least one CNG/LPG cab - i remember the owner telling me the story about how he bought the cab secondhand with the kit already on it, and both fuels were running through the same converter. So he quickly remedied that by fitting dual converters. Apparently it was an EF wagon, one tank in the wheel well (LPG) and one tank behind the rear seats (CNG) and not much room left.
But yes i did know that the CNG was available only on an account.
Where did CNG go? Did it just dissapear one day? I don't remember it when i first started in the taxi industry in about 2002.
09:29am 26/04/09 Permalink
Jim
Brisbane, Queensland
9595 posts
Yeah i think that co2 will become a vastly smaller problem once the oil's gone, and won't be a terribly big concern compared to what some people are saying the world will turn into after the oil.
How come you think that, given that even now when the % of lpg use is comparatively small, it still accounts for 50% as much CO2 as produced by other oil fuels?

LPG doesn't just come from the refining process as a byproduct. Yes that is one place it comes from, but it is also found in the ground.
Exactly - so how is something in limited supply from the ground, the way of the future?

Surely something that we might be able to produce harnessing existing natural forces and store, such as electricity, is a far better candidate for that title?
10:17am 26/04/09 Permalink
MrHardware
Brisbane, Queensland
4795 posts
Quite probably, but somehow i don't see that as a majority takeup in our lifetime. 50 years ago people were driving petrol powered 6-cyliners, same as today. I don't see it changing much in the next 50 years.
10:23am 26/04/09 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
4229 posts
I think by that time they will have sorted out all the current problems with Hydrogen storage and infrastructure.

I personally think that Hydrogen, whether it be used in ICE or Jet engines or in Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles is inevitable.

The Oil companies want it so they can still have market control and Governments want it because they can keep their fuel tax revenue stream. Finally the Greenies will want it because even though Hydrogen is currently produced in industrial quantities via natural gas reformation, it can possibly be produced in the future through the Electrolysis of Water using Non-Carbon Electricity Generation (Nukes, Solar, Wind etc).


Honda is backing Hydrogen in a big way.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/sae-2009-honda-booth/1516928/



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 11:03:23 26/Apr/09
10:45am 26/04/09 Permalink
plok
Brisbane, Queensland
461 posts
Yes, Hydrogen is swoit. I know they're having a b**** of a time working out how to store it, but I've been thinking very hard about this problem in between battlegrounds and I'm coming up with a very cool technique of attaching the hydrogen to small length carbon nano-rods... !
11:17am 26/04/09 Permalink
Jim
Brisbane, Queensland
9596 posts
I do the same thing in left4dead lobby!
03:55pm 26/04/09 Permalink
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