We sit down with the team at Xbox's first-party studio World’s Edge to talk about the journey to bring Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition to Xbox.
Age of Empires 2 on Xbox - The Big Interview
One of the most visually stunning and immersive science fiction games we’ve experienced.
Dead Space Review - A Remake You’d Cut Off A Limb For
Forspoken is a game that consistently fails to deliver, despite some lofty ideas, and manages only to impress in the most obscure moments.
Forspoken Review - An Awkward Experience
A celebration of the long-running franchise and a great way to kick off Switch gaming in 2023.
Fire Emblem Engage Review - Strategy Gold
Escaping your echo chambers
plok
Brisbane, Queensland
540 posts
[mods delete this post if deemed verboten]

Does anyone else find it hard to escape their echo chambers? By escape I mean more than the ability to simply read stuff from "the other side" on whatever topic in question is. I mean engage, comment, respond with people who hold a different position than you.

In my experience, when belonging to let's say the "dominant side" (I say side again as a nod to the extreme polarization of seemingly every topic) that dissenting views are not tolerated explicitly. Censored/deleted either by mods/empowered authority or by versions of community ranking/rating schemes.

People on the "dissenting side" having been silenced in "dominant" managed spaces congregate in areas that "dominant" proponents by and large won't visit.

My feeling is that over time this pattern has become more and more extreme. People no longer try to understand the points of views of others and find their points of disagreement. People seem less and less inclined to accept that others may come to a different decision or judgement on a particular topic and that that is not an indication that one or the other is "wrong".

Discussion and exchange can help people understand why they hold different or even opposing views on something. Not by focusing on advocacy or from a position of persuasion. Instead, by trying to find the typically multiple underlying and orthogonal principles that comprise any topic of real world complexity. Discovering the different weightings/moral judgements/opinions people hold in regard of these.

Twenty years ago, places like these forums I felt offered promise for a template of how to enable those direct interactions among the wider community, at a time when the flow of ideas was very uni-directional.

I don't know what the solution is, but my fear is that the online echo chambers we fall into are starting to degrade the fabric of society. They are undermining the basic level of respect in each others individual agency and I'm fearful of where this path leads.
11:22am 16/02/22 Permalink
system
Internet
--
11:22am 16/02/22 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41591 posts
socials obviously feed you more of what you show interest in.

even so, i still see plenty of nutbagg anti vaxers in my socials, which makes me a little sad.
11:54am 16/02/22 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
941 posts
The Overton window moves in one direction. That's about all there is to say about that. History repeats because human psychology is flawed.
10:10am 17/02/22 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17208 posts
Our minds in lots of ways aren't really fit for purpose in 2022. Given our handicaps its amazing that at species-level we get anything done.

We're literally a few hundred million tribes constantly snarling at each other, while also almost incidentally (like an emergent property?), cracking atoms and plumbing the secrets of the universe.
09:18am 18/02/22 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
1032 posts
I've been listening to a lot of talks by Zizek the crazy philosopher. He had an interesting idea regarding understanding the other. He disparages the idea that if we get to know the other we will somehow come to terms and co-exist. He argues this is bulls***, we can never truly know each other, what's needed is blissful ignorance of others. We don't need to understand others, but just to co-exist.

There is a limit of course. But in general, we should just ignore each other and our idiosyncrasies.

We're literally a few hundred million tribes constantly snarling at each other, while also almost incidentally (like an emergent property?), cracking atoms and plumbing the secrets of the universe.
this is spot on.

IMO we don't consider if an action is good for the community. By community I mean the one you live in, walk in, eat in, s*** in. Allowing people to own multiple properties is not good for the community. Higher density buildings are generally not good for the community unless they are paired with increase in facilities and services.
12:25pm 23/02/22 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24859 posts
I deliberately follow (both on Twitter and Facebook), writers and pages which are the opposite of my views. I like to keep up to speed with rhetoric.

This problem is not new but the technology used to suppress dissenting views and its relationship of tech oligarchs to politicians definitely is.

These technologies are public utilities. Just like the Electoral Commission's job is to ensure elections are run for the benefit of all in a fair manner, so should social media networks.

It is one thing to have freedom of speech - the freedom to print outrageous or outlandish statements, but it's another the have monopolistic power to suppress your opponents.
05:19pm 23/02/22 Permalink
trog
Other International
40214 posts
against my better judgement, but I've really basically thrown my hands up in the air these days
Does anyone else find it hard to escape their echo chambers? By escape I mean more than the ability to simply read stuff from "the other side" on whatever topic in question is. I mean engage, comment, respond with people who hold a different position than you.
can confirm I am getting increasingly radicalised by every conversation I have with people outside of what passes for my echo chamber (although for the last couple years that has really been my circle of friends and family)

not sure if infi's plan - to have citizens seize the means of [digital] production from the entrepreneurs that created them (is there a name for this?) - is the right approach but so far we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas, so hey, might be worth a try. who are you and what have you done with infi! calling for heavy-handed government regulations on corporations - we'll have you voting Greens before you know it!

(the above is an example of an unhelpful snarky comment that will further drive any chance of polite constructive discourse auguring straight into the ground, it is included for academic purposes only)

People on the "dissenting side" having been silenced in "dominant" managed spaces congregate in areas that "dominant" proponents by and large won't visit.
the quotes are doing a lot of work in this sentence, but at the end of the day if you want to have a space that is not filled with nonsense, decisions have to get made about moderation policies

Aside from some vague limitations on these fringe groups organising - hard for me to get too worked up about Nazis being denied the right to use Facebook to organise their dopey events - there is little evidence to me that they are being silenced - go look at any QLD Health Facebook thread about COVID (or, frankly, most other topics) and you'll see they are just as full of s*** as ever. I feel like for these platforms to retain any utility whatsoever they simply can't let evil groups organise [1].

The moderation tools for subforum owners need a lot of work - there is not enough flexibility or control for administrators to effectively manage them at scale. I am not sure this is a solvable problem - FB have tried employing thousands (maybe tens of thousands, I can't remember) of humans to try to keep basic s*** like porn off and they can't do it.

So my only real constructive thought is that maybe we're just going the wrong way with all these platforms that try to get as many people in one place. Maybe one possible answer is that Internet forums should focus on small scale based on local communities (this aligns with what I have always thought about video games and dedicated servers, as an aside).

As an example, I think FB/Twitter would be a better place if politicians were only able to be followed/talked at by their constituents & people in their sphere of influence (fellow MPs, local journalists, etc). Too many politicians get caught up trying to go viral and end up getting their egos stroked by Russian trolls and fringe group morons from the other side of the planet, which deviates their thinking from the actual reality on the ground. I dunno how that would work, practically.

1. Before some free speech galaxy brain steps in and says, stroking their chin thoughtfully, "ah, but who are you to say that Nazis are evil", maybe just go f*** yourself.
09:37am 25/02/22 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17212 posts
Social networks are businesses operating in a free and open market of ideas and values. As someone mentioned above the Overton window is always in flux. Back in the day it was grown-arse adults tearing up kids' D&D books (happened to me!) and now its loopy Uncles being silenced on FB. When people are s***ting in your space and saying you can't think or act in a particular way it always sucks.

Anyway I hate them all though and installed a Pi Hole yesterday as I'm increasingly aware of information security. Turns out that just under 20% of DNS requests on my network were jank. WTF
11:57am 25/02/22 Permalink
trog
Other International
40215 posts
in unrelated news about my ongoing radicalisation, my local federal MP appears to have banned me from his Facebook page today because of a comment I made (which he has also deleted)

is this what it feels like to be banned from things? ugh it's very unpleasant, no wonder people get so angry about it
03:58pm 25/02/22 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41594 posts
hahaha, what did you say trog?
04:19pm 25/02/22 Permalink
trog
Other International
40216 posts
https://trog.qgl.org/up/2202/mp-ukraine.jpg

AITA? I was asking a legit question, sure, possibly a bit obnoxiously, but I could not f*****g belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve he made that post at this time

I note (looking at his FB page in incognito) that he has since made a bland single-line "we stand with Ukraine" post which I guess qualifies as foreign policy
04:41pm 25/02/22 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41595 posts
lolz, definately not expecting any real responses.

in his defense, im not sure what responses we can make for ukraine.

vlad is crazy and has nukes. not sure how we can really respond to what is happening.
04:51pm 25/02/22 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4323 posts

1. Before some free speech galaxy brain steps in and says, stroking their chin thoughtfully, "ah, but who are you to say that Nazis are evil", maybe just go f*** yourself.


I agree, though I wouldn't frame it as a question, more a statement like "trog is not smart enough to say nazi's are evil".

But while we are on the subject of evil nazis, borderline retardedly mentioning ukraine to the member for taringa (who was definitely going to engage with a random who apparently cares what the greens think about anything on a topic he has no portfolio responsibility for), turns out ukraine has a neo nazi grandma's.

I for one welcome this hard line by Russia against very evil nazi's.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7dpdd/why-is-this-ak-47-toting-ukrainian-grandma-being-trained-by-neo-nazis

If Russians stop this definitely as evil as hilter nazi grandma from posting on facebook even once it will have been worth it.

(the above is an example of an unhelpful snarky comment that will further drive any chance of polite constructive discourse auguring straight into the ground, it is included for academic purposes only)

04:21pm 26/02/22 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2155 posts
in unrelated news about my ongoing radicalisation, my local federal MP appears to have banned me from his Facebook page today because of a comment I made (which he has also deleted)

is this what it feels like to be banned from things? ugh it's very unpleasant, no wonder people get so angry about it


It's funny how some of the supposed freedom people want books banned in schools they don't like and there's even pastors burning books. What's the world coming to.
10:04pm 06/03/22 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4324 posts

It's funny how some of the supposed freedom people want books banned in schools they don't like and there's even pastors burning books. What's the world coming to.


So one of the books they want removed from elementary school libraries (not quite the same as banning) is this book which gives graphic depictions of various sex acts.

Why do you want to show 8 year olds how to give blowjobs? Been to Thailand recently?
09:26am 11/03/22 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
942 posts
Nuance doesn't exist anymore. When you can switch your brain off and "trust the experts", it absolves you from needing to know anything about anything
09:39am 14/03/22 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2156 posts
So one of the books they want removed from elementary school libraries (not quite the same as banning) is this book which gives graphic depictions of various sex acts.

Why do you want to show 8 year olds how to give blowjobs? Been to Thailand recently?
Wow! Excellent strawman. Did you think that all up by yourself and reach out to your f***ed up biases of an echo chamber.
01:17am 28/03/22 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2157 posts
PornoPete, you're one hell of a zealot. Are you a fundamentalist or just a plain dismissive prick when it comes to others view that has no alignment to yours??? I'd say "F*** yeah", knob. I don't care what smartarse, arrogant and yet ignorant reply you'll give, I'll still think you're a full on knob. Have for over a decade, nothing has changed. Let's see you have a huge cry and deflect now with your pseudo intellectualism. As always. Pussy.
01:28am 28/03/22 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4325 posts
still think you're a full on knob. Have for over a decade, nothing has changed.


Why are you so obsessed with me?

So the book I linked to is one of the specific books that people are pushing to be removed from primary school libraries.

It depicts graphic sex acts.

So if you're complaining about "supposed freedom people" "banning books" and that's the specific book they are complaining about you *must* think it's appropriate to depict blow jobs to children between the ages of 5 to 12. Either that or you were ignorant about the debate.

Take your pick. And yes I'm a "dismissive prick" about debating the merits of showing porn to young children.
09:22pm 05/04/22 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2158 posts
Once again Porno Pete you blather absolute bulls*** about your idea of (and strawman) "my views" as a way of justifying your s*** argument. FFS, grow the f*** up and realise you're one hell of a wanker.
10:23pm 22/05/22 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12484 posts
Does anyone else find it hard to escape their echo chambers?
The fact that one would read another point of view and consider those arguments suggests they're not living in an echo chamber. But it is important to distinguish what you consider an echo chamber, because what you're describing sounds a lot more like people feeling marginalised or disenfranchised for having a particular view. I think there's a big difference between what society as a whole finds acceptable and an echo chamber.

These days people who believe in peer reviewed science, technical innovation, and medicine are by some labelled as sheep living in an echo chamber who refuse to be enlightened. Which is just mind blowing. How do you deal with people who think this way? It's like trying to tell the nutball in the valley that he isn't the second coming of Christ, he's just a guy wearing a vest and no pants. There's just nowhere to go with some people.

Society collectively tends to move with an idea. For example when society collectively decides that black people are people too, not a second class of sub-human. Or that women should be able to vote. Being gay is not a crime, but socially acceptable. That the age of consent shouldn't be 12 but higher. Whatever it is, society as a whole sets the standard. There will always be outcasts or fringe members of society that will swim against the current. It has happened for thousands of years. What has changed is the Internet and these days social media. When before the outcast knew they were an outcast, these days the Internet allows them to find groups of like minded people to form virtual social structures that make them feel like they're not the odd one out.

That's my thoughts on it.
10:48pm 10/07/22 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4326 posts
FFS, grow the f*** up and realise you're one hell of a wanker.


Oh hai

I'm sure you were concealing a deep, nuanced and sophisticated argument behind whatever this is

It's funny how some of the supposed freedom people want books banned in schools they don't like and there's even pastors burning books. What's the world coming to.


and that you just didn't have the energy or time to articulate your view in a way that was so easily mischaracterized by linking to an actual book actually being debated for inclusion in actual primary schools. we can put a pin in how funny a self-declared fat old loser on a dead gaming forum telling anyone else to grow up is.

These days people who believe in peer-reviewed science
a graph of peer-review


be interesting to chart the "regularity of major scientific breakthroughs" alongside that chart. Speaking as someone who worked for a peer-reviewed journal. it is, by definition, seeking peer approval. interesting to object to being called a sheep...
The people who won WW2 didn't care about it. The people who lost Vietnam really cared about it. Just sayin'
09:40pm 05/08/22 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12489 posts
The people who won WW2 didn't care about it. The people who lost Vietnam really cared about it. Just sayin'
I don't believe the people who discovered how to start fires cared about it either, or whether they wiped their arse with their hand or a leaf.
07:30am 06/08/22 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4327 posts

I don't believe the people who discovered how to start fires cared about it either, or whether they wiped their arse with their hand or a leaf.


would you like an ego stroke? imagine it's the luscious blowjob Sam gave Frodo at the end of the lord of the rings.

Here you go.

I've been living in such an echo chamber that until you pointed it out, it simply had not occurred to me that the single most productive era in the history of science had more in common with cavemen using leafs for sanitary purposes than the mighty gods of science who speak before us now wielding their fearsome weapon of peer-review.

Surely who amongst us unanointed could doubt that Oppenheimer would appear as a mere fool before the peer-reviewed brian cox.

Before ending this with the insult you richly deserve but I won't give you, because the first time you stray outside your echo-chamber can be painful, and this is, after all, a teachable moment, I attach another graph. the pinnacle one might say of peer review.

Wealthy germans googling firewood. As justin truedeau might say "because it's 2022". but peer review darling. Says this is fine.

https://twitter.com/MacroAlf/status/1558524788422758400/photo/1

trog has a script you may be interested in. after saying this
The fact that one would read another point of view and consider those arguments suggests they're not living in an echo chamber.

07:09pm 15/08/22 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
948 posts
This thread must not die. It is the last of the "politics threads" that needs the be kept for posterity in the face of the ever growing and overwhelming evidence that the NPC's are more NPC than previously thought possible.
03:25am 16/10/22 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18551 posts
People often make the mistake in believing themselves and others to be driven primarily by rational thought. Tis just an illusion, we are driven and bound by our emotional landscape, above that of rational thought, indeed we can all be manipulated by clever parlour tricks of psychology.

This is why arguments between opposing groups are rarely resolved through rational discussion.

For a member to agree with the opposing group, that member risks ostracism from their home group. For the most strongly held beliefs and convictions (think anti vaxxers), this can mean One is essentially making the argument that the Other should abandon their support networks and travel a road of solitude. The great majority of people on this planet, would prefer to feel part of a group, than be damned into exile.

Can anyone truly blame another for preferring to remain emotionally connected ,rather than being 'right'.. yet alone?


Ultimately, though, we all individually exist within the echo chamber of our own mind and perception, projecting that chamber of thoughts onto the facsimile of reality we perceive (or more so make).
09:46pm 25/10/22 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2161 posts
a graph of peer-review


be interesting to chart the "regularity of major scientific breakthroughs" alongside that chart. Speaking as someone who worked for a peer-reviewed journal. it is, by definition, seeking peer approval. interesting to object to being called a sheep...
The people who won WW2 didn't care about it. The people who lost Vietnam really cared about it. Just sayin'


God you're a twat. What an inane and superfluous statement highlighting you're a full on condescending wanker when anyone calls you out. What a knob. Go f*** yourself.
11:51pm 28/12/22 Permalink
Denominator
Brisbane, Queensland
996 posts
I love my echo chamber and you can all go back to yours.

Information is what we have now in our pockets is a man breaking device. Remember when you had to learn the times tables because your teacher said "who is going to carry a calculator in your pocket" Now everyone does.

Kids of today have massive social anxiety to do anything out of the norm. Kids play toxic micropayment games like Roblox. It puts them in there echo chamber of kids witch turns them into clones of each other.

Now that we have the internet which is a platform to get your message out it amplifies the reach of morons. This breeds moronic toxic groups like flat earthers (Tell the the earth is flat because the water is not carbonated like flat coke)
Fact Checkers on social media just spread there echo chamber and its the general public that ignores this that will end the way we live now.

Las decades Automation is so cheap now that we no longer need as many people in the workforce. Just like when the car took over from the horse. Everything is self service and soon we will need to go back to basics to rebuild what we have lost.
10:14am 12/01/23 Permalink
system
Internet
--
10:14am 12/01/23 Permalink
AusGamers Forums
Show: per page
1
Post a Reply
You must be logged in to post a reply.