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Windows 11
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17176 posts
The world's worst kept secret is has been outed, with Bill's boys in Redmond confirming Windows 11.

There is a bunch of features being covered online and it doesn't look terrible.

No doubt trog will avoid updating until the oldest legacy version of Windows falls out of support; what about you guys? Will you pay fiat for it? If offered an early access discount or freebie will you take it up?

Personally, I'm kind of knuckles deep with MS, being a 20 year partner and full stack .net developer, so I will probably grab the first official insider build and give it a run.
10:06am 26/06/21 Permalink
system
Internet
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10:06am 26/06/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17177 posts
Oh and if you are a Linux nerd and haven't checked out the Windows Subsystem for Linux you're missing out; it's an amazing way to get a full featured distribution running alongside Windows at runtime.

It's just so handy for when a solution is only provided for Linux, you can run those arcane cmds without needing a dual boot or separate VM configured ... for example using the WSL you have full access to locally mounted resources like hard drives etc.

I'll probably never want to run a Linux distribution as my daily driver, but having it available (essentially like you can within macos) is super handy. NO. MORE. PUTTY.

Thinking of it bash and windows side by side is kind of the dream. It's also a great way to dip your toe into the dark side without a lot of work and it's an officially supported Windows thing.
10:15am 26/06/21 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41572 posts
yer, ill be jumping on board as soon as i can
11:28am 26/06/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40173 posts
No doubt trog will avoid updating until the oldest legacy version of Windows falls out of support
I'm about 2 years into using Windows 10 and it is by far the worst Windows I've ever used (though I skipped Vista). Never had so many problems with an operating system [that wasn't Linux]
11:34am 26/06/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17178 posts
Windows 10 is a bit schizophrenic but I love the weird little guy anyway. I certainly don't have any problems using it though.

Last time I tried a stand alone Linux desktop distribution the UI and desktop completely fell apart after about 15 minutes.

I then went and installed HiveOS for the job and was much happier. I feel like Linux is amazing at lots of specific roles (Web servers, routers, mining rigs, controller logic etc etc) but my experience with it as a general desktop environment has been universally poor over 30 or so years now.
11:44am 26/06/21 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41573 posts
what sort of problems?

i have had zero problems with windows 10, my experience has been awesome.
11:53am 26/06/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40174 posts
I have a two year old top shelf Dell XPS laptop and it has been a chore. I believe a lot of my problems are specific to Dell so I get that it's probably not necessarily a Windows 10 thing, but even as someone that has a vague understanding about COMPUTARS it's hard to not correlate. Also the biggest problem is laptop-specific - this is the first time I've ever had a laptop as my primary work (and play, after my desktop GPU died a couple months back) machine and it fkn sucks.

None of them are really showstoppers except for the first two.

- Until literally last week, I've had constant but random problems with the laptop sleeping. It wouldn't sleep - it would look like it did, but then it would just come back online after a few seconds of appearing slept. I tried a bunch of different things which seemed to work for a bit then stop. After finally spending a few hours diving into it last week I figured it out - Dell and MS have collaborated to make it s***, basically. Now I have working S3 sleep but it's not as nice as the other one. This doesn't sound like a big deal but sometimes I'd put my laptop in my bag thinking it was off, get on the bus, get home, take it out and find out it was hot as the surface of the sun and battery was almost flat.
- the system randomly locks desktop, like Win-L locking. This happens in the middle of games, watching shows, typing emails, whatever. Totally random and can't trace it back to anything. (I stopped for a Dota game while writing this and it locked mid-game.)
- just ghastly horrible control panel stuff which has 1/10th the functionality of the old control panel. Sometimes it has an 'advanced' menu option which opens the real old control panel so you can do stuff but otherwise (at least in Home) feels like a totally crippled OS.
- the generally flat design is par for the course these days but f***** sucks and feels like MS threw out 40+ years of interface design and HCI research. Trying to read dark grey text on black background in the stupid new Settings stuff and wondering what is clickable is a grind (maybe this is just a defect of 'dark mode'?). slightly related I thought this was pretty funny/interesting.
- another 'dark mode' defect(?) is Explorer with a black background does a weird quick white paint each time you bring one to foreground. It literally feels like it's a really quick hack and is really distracting
- BlueTooth support is s***e. This is really the first time I've ever used BlueTooth seriously so maybe it's always this bad? I just bought some new BT headphones and after a few sleep cycles of the laptop, BlueTooth simply stops working, and Windows thinks the Bluetooth radio "device has been removed". Only fix is a reboot (and even that doesn't seem to work for some people.)
- seem to have regular problems switching audio out from speakers to (wired) headphones and have to do this manually more than I would have thought.
- this is my first time with a 4k monitor but the pixel scaling stuff is almost comically bad when you're switching between 2K/4K modes or moving applications between them. I dunno if other OSs are this bad.
- just dead set dumb s*** like not being able to set a folder containing folders of images for backgrounds, necessitating annoying processes like this to do really basic stuff - something else that has changed at least once since I first installed so the old method no longer works
- in the last few months(?) you can no longer do a new install without a MS online account?! (I just read you can ALT-F4 at that stage of the install and it skips it but haven't tested it yet). I think this is mostly a Home limitation?

None of these are unique. If you search for any of them there are thousands of the usual forum posts with people desperately trying to find a fix. See my comments in that WP post as an example of a thing that changed several times over the course of a couple years and has required constant adaptation for something that is an absolutely bog-standard core thing and absolutely is critical in a laptop.

Ironically I haven't had problems with the Windows Updates stuff force rebooting me but not sure if that's because I'm pretty paranoid and reboot immediately anyway or if they kinda fixed that.

The biggest positives I've found so far:
- cmd.exe supports better copy and paste
- Latest version of Lightroom works (f*** you Adobe, there's zero reason I should need Win10 to run it - it works on Win7 OR Win10, but not 8.1?)
- new PowerToys - FancyZones (a tiling window manager) is very nice

I haven't tried WSL yet - I have too many Linux VPSs to manage so I haven't found the need, but I am keen to try it as it does sound cool. What else am I missing?
04:51pm 27/06/21 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41574 posts
they dont sound like win10 problems, they sound like dell problems to me. i have seen nothing like that on any of the win10 instances i maintain (4 at home on various machines, 2 at work)

not sure what you are talking about with control panel, mine is as full featured as any windows os.

the only thing i need do is install win7 start buttan and its perfect!
07:46am 28/06/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40175 posts
not sure what you are talking about with control panel, mine is as full featured as any windows os.
where do you go to change settings? [What's left of] Control Panel or the stupid Settings "app"?

If you're lucky, there'll be a link between the two and Settings will open the relevant Control Panel. Or there might be a helpful message in Control Panel telling you to f*** back off into Settings (e.g. Control Panel -> Device Encryption, which, after an inexplicable pause of about 4 seconds, gives you a screen saying "go to Settings" - not even the courtesy of a link to click on.

(Also I just noticed but the Control Panel background colour does not match dark mode theme and is white instead)

The whole thing feels so half baked. I feel like you guys are all using a totally different OS to me or just way more tolerant of little bits of s*** like this
08:34am 28/06/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17180 posts
He's talking about the schizophrenic blend of new and old windows settings, and that the new ui sucks.

I'm not a fan of flat design personally but I understand that it's trendy and why we're moving that way. Once the process is complete I'll either just buy a classic control panel shell if they discontinue the old, or just complete the migration to Power Shell for admin (more below).

Sounds like his Dell has piss poor AHCI/APM and some mild gfx issues, for example I love Windows Explorer dark mode and never see the white redraw mentioned, or the poor contrast issues. Retail consumer laptops will cheap you out on WiFi and Bluetooth every time, but it should be a quick and easy change to a better unit with most being a little m.2 card swap out, because they know they are trash and will fail enough that they'll need replacing.

Mostly these days Im drifting more and more to using Power Shell for anything remotely complex in terms of Windows admin. As a Linux guy trog, I recommend you stop f*****g around with the baby's first cmd line and learn the PS stuff; it's much more like bash for Windows.

Also I don't see the real control panels (gpedit, all the *.msc *.cpl snap-ins etc) moving anywhere soon.

Ironic I know (it's WINDOWS ffs) but the drift to cmd line for admin tasks has been a thing for years now in the server OS, with the ui more of a collection of status screens and simple interfaces, the Real Work being done via Power Shell.

Edit: My computers are all in pieces at the moment so I can't check, but I think my settings Windows are properly dark mode too; 21H1 here.
08:44am 28/06/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17181 posts
Oh s*** I just realised that you mean that the classic (legacy) Control Panel doesn't implement the new UI's dark mode preference. Mine doesn't either, all there in its tidy whitey 90s chic glory.

I'm almost certain that the entire classic Control Panel is currently in maintenance mode so changes to the new UI won't be reflected there.

Sorry I just didn't connect those things as an expectation, my bad lol
02:54pm 28/06/21 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41575 posts
yer, i dont use dark modes or themes or anything like that. i find anything other than the most vanilla of themes annoying (classic windows theme 4lfye). no fading, no fancy visuals, nothing. all gets turned off immediately after install.
07:18pm 28/06/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40176 posts
Sounds like his Dell has piss poor AHCI/APM and some mild gfx issues
Definitely Dell is suspect here but MS have been complicit (I don't expect you to read the full history of this dumb sleep issue but they deliberately added then removed some functionality around Hybrid Sleep). Just annoying.
I'm almost certain that the entire classic Control Panel is currently in maintenance mode so changes to the new UI won't be reflected there.
Yeh I figured that was the case. I don't mind them wanting to make a new piece of s*** Settings panel for idiots or people on phones or tablets or whatever, but it should be a layer on top of the previous power control panel, at least until they get to the point where the new version has at least the same level of functionality as the old one.

flat design can f*** off, it's just s*** everywhere
Ironic I know (it's WINDOWS ffs) but the drift to cmd line for admin tasks has been a thing for years now in the server OS, with the ui more of a collection of status screens and simple interfaces, the Real Work being done via Power Shell.
I don't mind PowerShell but just haven't had enough of a use case to get proficient with it. I tend to do bits and pieces in it when required and am always impressed at how deep the integration goes, and usually slightly annoyed at the verbosity and surface complexity. I know everyone that groks it properly loves it but I don't do enough general Windows stuff to need it.

I did have a use case for WSL a couple days ago and set it up and it is pretty cool!

Windows 11 allegedly supporting Android apps would be a big deal for me.
11:53am 29/06/21 Permalink
bLaZe
New South Wales
145 posts
I hope it improves on the update shenanigans of 10 where I have to notice that a patch is ready and click the special "shut down and update" dialog instead of just hitting the power button and it applying automatically like 7 did.
09:27pm 29/06/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17182 posts
Have been chewing over this one as being a dirty .net hoe I obviously have opinions on Windows.

Right now my computers explodered though so I'm dealing with that. Plan is to fire up the Enterprise Edition during the rebuild, I want to confirm some things before I chat more :D
01:24pm 30/06/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40177 posts
Just discovered that setting up WSL seems to blow up VirtualBox installs because of something something HyperV, which is annoying because now my primary dev environment won't boot.

I guess I can use this opportunity to migrate over, or I could uninstall WSL. Need to look a bit more but it seems possible that enabling 'windows hypervisor platform' as a feature might do it? Anyone come across this before?
01:23pm 02/07/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17183 posts
Read the 'something something hyper-v' bit for you. WSL uses Hyper-V and uses special powers to unlock the feature when installed onto Windows Home, which normally does not allow a tier-1 hypervisor to run.

Virtualbox is incompatible with the situation where it can see Hyper-V running but can't use it, and seems to lack a force-tier-2 mode that it normally falls back to, so just falls down in a heap.

Your core problem here is that you are using Windows Home to do serious dev business. Its in the name of the product, is intended for web browsy facebook office apps style usage, not OS virtualisation. Until Virtualbox patch for Home+WSL you'll probably have to revert.
03:59pm 02/07/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17184 posts
Oh and btw sorry I didn't realise that there were compatibility issues there when I recommended you check out WSL, I literally use Virtual Box and Hyper-V and WSL all side by side :(

MY BAD THERE HAY
09:59pm 02/07/21 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4500 posts
found a new package manager for Windows recently. before i used chocolatey which was ok but a change is as good as a holiday, so winget got the job. the cmdline integration is all really smooth and while not as robust feeling as a systemd package manager for Linux it’s maintained well enough at GitHub to be good enough for Windows without having to go all WSL tendrils.

Windows 11 alright. can it just NetBoot from a UEFI prompt and not need installing by now please ?
10:06pm 03/07/21 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
1018 posts

Here's a great article about the number of different win10 layers, win11 is probably even worse!
https://ntdotdev.wordpress.com/2021/02/06/state-of-the-windows-how-many-layers-of-ui-inconsistencies-are-in-windows-10/

I use Windows 10 and Linux at work, have a macbook pro and a win10 desktop at home. So I'm gonna dump my thoughts because I regularly use all three OS's.

I recently went full linux at work (Linux Mint 20). I was absolutely blown away by the progress, last time I used linux (Ubuntu) it was not a good user experience. But now it was f*****g awesome, everything just worked. I've gone full FOSS actually, no more Microsoft Office (LibreOffice) bulls*** slow-ass 15 second start up, no more bugging me to update, no more spying. To be fair I use a lot of CLI tools and spent a huge amount of time just in terminal. The only issue I experienced was enterprise wifi access, some odd issues with WPA2 but some googling and all was well. I also don't play games, if I did I am sure my opinion would change to favor more windows because of GPU drivers.

I recently installed the latest macOS (Big Sur) and f*** me it was horrible. The new layers of user safety were absolutely horrible, I had to go into safe mode, access the terminal and enter in weird esoteric commands to turn off some dumb system. I can't install downloaded apps with going into security every single time. I'm not upgrading my laptop... maybe ever. I used to really enjoy the macOS interface but now it just drives me nuts. There's no sticky windows like Win10, cant rearrange windows automatically but then spotlight is f*****g awesome. It searches inside documents system wide. I still haven't found spotlight level search in win10 or linux.

Then I go into Windows 10, f*** me. I can't find the right setting for anything. The different layers of settings is dumb and frustrating. Now I just try to remember where the f*** Win7 settings window is and stick to that. When I first installed win10 I took all the telemetry off and turned off the auto update bulls*** after they added Minecraft and Candy Crush icons to start menu. But then it has sticky windows, drivers for nearly all hardware, IT doesn't freak out when I ask for specific software. But windows doesn't have tabs. Windows had tabs but MS took it away. I haven't used WSL tbh but I have heard good things about it. But with 2 linux machines why would I even bother...

Win11 sounds like a horrible privacy abusing and controlling OS. The requirement to create an MS account is a red flag for me. Apple tries to do that consistently with more and more integration of updates and software into their s*** itunes software.

My 2c. Linux is the future of OS. Checkout Pop_OS and Elementary for slick looking Linux OS.


10:37pm 03/07/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17185 posts
What did you replace Unity and Visual Studio with?
10:55pm 03/07/21 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4501 posts
who me ?

i got the s**** with the whole f*****g Unity slothtards after repeated ignored emails to support about an issue with logging into my account to access the paid dependency assets when they changed the whole authentication layer to 2FA as if it’s important enough that it requires military level encryption. the one moron who had some idea or must have gotten the memo of the change from devops, stopped replying after he couldn’t comprehend that all I needed updated was my mobile number so that i could prompt the system to send me a validation code.

I didn’t care anymore anyway after developing an idea in VR to its sufficient completion, but it’s better than Unreal for devving out ideas when you need to scratch the dev itch. Just pissed my account got so messed up and is unrecoverable, I’d spent about 400 dollars on assets that I hadn’t had a chance to play with.

Linux is probably the future of OS for innovation. Tesla would never run their fleet on anything else, Valve are basing their handheld console on it, which if it’s anything as popular as the Nintendo Switch has been with Windows DirectX compatibility with Vulkan and all your Steam games right there it’ll be perfect.

Garuda Linux is a nice arch_flavour
12:29am 04/07/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40178 posts
Read the 'something something hyper-v' bit for you. WSL uses Hyper-V and uses special powers to unlock the feature when installed onto Windows Home, which normally does not allow a tier-1 hypervisor to run.

Virtualbox is incompatible with the situation where it can see Hyper-V running but can't use it, and seems to lack a force-tier-2 mode that it normally falls back to, so just falls down in a heap.

Your core problem here is that you are using Windows Home to do serious dev business. Its in the name of the product, is intended for web browsy facebook office apps style usage, not OS virtualisation. Until Virtualbox patch for Home+WSL you'll probably have to revert.
yeh it's just a bit annoying that I've been running VirtualBox flawlessly for 2+ years on this machine and setting up WSL seems to silently break it. Feels a bit victim-blamey to blame it on Home vs Pro. (I have been wanting to upgrade to Pro for a while anyway but now I kinda feel obliged to see how far I can push Home - it looks like you can install full HyperV with some command line f*****y so maybe I'll give that a go :)

MS will cheerfully put up multiple obstacles in front of my face to make sure I really want to install Chrome and am I sure I don't want to try Edge? But when it comes to crippling some other application I don't even get a README with a warning! (note: I didn't read any of the readmes so maybe there is a warning and it's all my fault)

The slightly weird thing is that my Ubuntu VM seems to actually boot up just fine, it just dies when starting X. If I switch to console everything else seems to work just fine? So actually it probably would do for my purposes anyway as I barely use any desktop stuff in it, I just want some console-based dev stuff running.
My 2c. Linux is the future of OS. Checkout Pop_OS and Elementary for slick looking Linux OS.
I try to run an Ubuntu Desktop every year and every year I get about 10 minutes in before something drives me mad with frustration because it simply doesn't work.
02:31pm 04/07/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17186 posts
My bad trog, I was treating you like a professional who knows to select the right tool for the job and analyze root causes of tech failures and I didn't sugar coat the advice. Sorry for making you feel like a victim lol.

Stick to using Windows Home on a consumer Dell laptop for your main dev machine, and I'll stop suggesting stuff for you to try that isn't safe for laypeople. Legit though, please don't start f*****g about with PowerShell on it :|

And yes, the current schizophrenic Windows Control Panel situation for Windows Home-type users is s*** and I hope they tidy it up soon. It still feels disjointed and more like a transition phase which we should be well done with by now; I can only assume that there is something else going on that makes the change implementation a hard problem.
03:33pm 04/07/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40179 posts
well, you have no idea what my day job is or what my technical requirements are - so I don't really feel like you're qualified to give me advice about what operating system I should be using? FWIW my "consumer Dell laptop" is the single most expensive PC I have /ever/ bought, owned, or used (edit: I actually mostly bought it so I could play Dota while I was seconded to a company in HK for 3 months!) . What is a "non-consumer Dell laptop"? Or do you just hate Dell

I generally don't like giving Microsoft any more money than I absolutely have to; Home has met my requirements for two years and continues to do so. The only reason I really wanted to upgrade was for more BitLocker controls, because they are gimped so hard in Home. (Also feels weird for someone telling me I should be using Windows for dev in 2021 given I am usually the only person in a room wherever I am on a Windows PC because every other technical person is on a Mac but we probably at least agree those people are potatoes).

I'd also note that MS make the difference between Win10 Home and Pro as opaque and obscure as f*** in almost everything they write these days - also having to deal with OS release numbers to find out if something is compatible is some f***** dumb Linux s***:

"To update to WSL 2, you must be running Windows 10.
For x64 systems: Version 1903 or higher, with Build 18362 or higher."

Outside of "you need Service Pack 2 installed" I don't recall ever having to deal with this many layers of complexity to figure out of Windows software is going to run.

Anyway I uninstalled the WSL virtualisation stuff and now VirtualBox works exactly as it did before. I'll prolly stick with this until this distro breaks in a couple months because of some dumb Ubuntu update and then I'll try WSL again (I kinda got jacked off with WSL because the clipboard didn't work seamlessly between host/VM and I couldn't figure out how to fix it in 5 seconds).
04:56pm 04/07/21 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17187 posts
LOL ok man, I just said maybe don't use Windows Home for work stuff. If this advice was followed you wouldn't have had this problem.

They offer Home, Professional and Enterprise flavours for a reason, excuse the complexity. Maybe they can dumb it down for you.

Whatever, sorry for any harm I may have caused.
08:13pm 04/07/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40181 posts
edit: maybe we should just start talking about why Windows 11 is going to be better, aside from the Android thing I posted not sure what other compelling reasons there are going to be to run out and upgrade
08:05am 05/07/21 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4503 posts
I read an article that mentioned Windows 11 will make the classic BSOD due to driver errors etc obsolete somehow. Would be interesting to read a more in depth article about what this means the dev team have done to change the kernel or other subsystem changes.

The OS on the Xbox Series X seemed like a preview to the way they’re also changing into the future.
09:34pm 06/07/21 Permalink
trog
Other International
40183 posts
I've had one BSOD that I can remember since late 2013, which was when I got my last desktop PC (Win8.1). I took a photo of it it was so unusual - woulda been around late 2016. I'm sure they still happen but they must be pretty closely linked to bad hardware these days?
08:15am 07/07/21 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4504 posts
Yeah I really don’t know I’m out of the loop on common annoying issues since I used to get around doing tech support over 10 years ago.

the Tesla system as far as ‘driving a computer’ goes smoothly is interesting. I went for a look in the showroom in the Valley with daughter 1.0 and then a 30 minute test drive later in a Model 3 about 3 years ago. It seems like a snazzy Qt UI Linux machine. the voice control didn’t work as well as Apple’s Siri or Google Home gadgets I have littered around the desk now, but for opening the glove box or turning the lights on and off it worked. Every time a see one driving past on the road or in a parking lot I am so jelly of not getting approved for a loan for one, maybe never.

05:15pm 07/07/21 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12475 posts
I've not been a huge fan of Windows since Windows 8 onwards, though Windows 10 was a huge improvement on 8. Windows 7 was good, Windows XP was good....Windows 10 I've had to live with, it was OK. Mostly I hate the skitzo UI in Windows 10 and the s*** they keep jamming into it. Not sure what I think of Windows 11...my time is spent 60/40 between Windows and Mac and on the surface (haven't not directly tried it) it seems like Microsoft is going down the Mac path with the new Windows 11 UI/experience. On top of that their focus seems to be more toward a mobile driven experience with the UI (e.g. these are changes being made to suit touch users vs. normal people).
04:48pm 10/07/21 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
1020 posts
I try to run an Ubuntu Desktop every year and every year I get about 10 minutes in before something drives me mad with frustration because it simply doesn't work.

You gotta dewindow-fy your brain when trying new OS out.

Also ubuntu is ugly is as sin, try Linux Mint or something less horrible.
05:21pm 12/07/21 Permalink
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05:21pm 12/07/21 Permalink
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