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Political Thread 3
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26862 posts
Whenever people who have inevitably lost the argument about Trump and then go down the age-old Godwin's Law route always remind me of this meme.
Let's see what the man himself has to say about this -

Mike Godwin himself has also criticized the overapplication of Godwin's law, claiming it does not articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate, hyperbolic comparisons. "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics," Godwin wrote, "its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."

In December 2015, Godwin commented on the Nazi and fascist comparisons being made by several articles about Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying: "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician."[13] In August 2017, Godwin made similar remarks on social networking websites Facebook and Twitter with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging efforts to compare its alt-right organizers to Nazis.

In October 2018, Godwin said on Twitter that it is acceptable to call Brazilian politician (later became President) Jair Bolsonaro a "Nazi". In June 2019, after Chris Hayes invoked Godwin's Law in a discussion of whether it was appropriate to call the United States's refugee detention centers "concentration camps," Godwin explicitly stated his belief that the term "concentration camps" was appropriate.
05:26pm 19/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24515 posts
Now THAT's irony.
05:29pm 19/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3843 posts
Imitation is a sincere from of flattery vash.

Godwin succumbing to his own law is the joke I didn't know I needed.

That and fpot saying trump not resigning because of a report that said he didn't do anything means democracy is broken. Genius.
06:12pm 19/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6193 posts
Correction, a report that said he obstructed justice and lead to arrests of multiple advisers. The democrats have been very reasonable with dealing with him. But when you got a bats*** crazy republican base listening to the Trump mouthpieces, evidence and facts have no meaning.
06:41pm 19/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3844 posts
No it didn't vash.

It very clearly stated it didn't make a decision about obstruction of justice.

And no-one has been arrested over Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Always dangerous to stray from r/latestagecapitalism copypasta.
07:12pm 19/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6194 posts
he didn't do anything
it didn't make a decision


Nice.
07:18pm 19/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3845 posts
Someone doesn't understand the presumption of innocence.

Add it to the list.
08:14pm 19/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6195 posts
Someone also doesnt seem to be paying attention. 'he didn't do anything'
Just a 20 minute phone call folks. Just a press conference. List goes on.
08:19pm 19/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3846 posts
List goes on.


Aw see you can't help yourself can you. Type what you see vash.

Thanks for clearing up you really don't understand why those two sentences are consistent.

I love that you're celebrating the democrats concreting trump in for 2020.
09:15pm 19/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24516 posts
09:40pm 19/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6196 posts
The tweets age so well. Like father like son.

https://i.imgur.com/PPlkcoS.jpg
11:38pm 19/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3847 posts
Great comeback vash.
06:24am 20/12/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
812 posts
Another day, some more gems from Vash and fpot.

If Trump obstructed justice and colluded with Russia then why did the Democrats not impeach him for that? I want you guys to try real hard to engage your brain today. Maybe tomorrow we won't be on the rinse-repeat cycle of completely botching the Mueller report.
09:54am 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6197 posts
It's all political. Democrats weren't going to push for impeachment on just obstruction evidence, they wouldnt have enough support. Trump is a trainwreck so it was a matter of time until he f***ed up again, and here we are.
If he was put on trial without the politics, he'd be done.
02:03pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24517 posts
It's all political.


No s***. So why didn't they wait for an election in 12 months, instead of this utterly pointless exercise.
02:21pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3848 posts
It's a special brand of stupid that says impeachment is political as though that's an insight.

But just to be clear in vash/fpot land "attacking America" shouldn't be impeached because "politics" but giving military aid to Ukraine should be.

I see today master tactician Pelosi really is threatening not to send the articles to the senate.

Trump had been uniquely blessed with an opposition that is just desperate to make fools of themselves.

"Obvious crimes" which weren't named in the articles of impeachment. The power of propaganda.
02:33pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6198 posts
Well when a leader of a country commits obvious crimes and breached his oath of office, you dont just wait until an election to remove him.
Hes now trying to make it not about him, but that its an attack on the people.
02:33pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24518 posts
Well when a leader of a country commits obvious crimes and breached his oath of office, you dont just wait until an election to remove him.
Hes now trying to make it not about him, but that its an attack on the people.


You do if 1.) It's purely political partisan ploy. 2.) You have literally ZERO chance of being successful.
02:39pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6199 posts
Yeah, and his voters aren't interested in those crimes, which means the Republicans wont be either. All they could do is try to save face by bringing up Biden & Conspiracy theories in the impeachment inquiry.
02:43pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3849 posts
Pretty sure vash didn't understand what you said infi.

But just wow, how deeply stewing in pure propaganda to think that way.

Trump committed obvious crimes but there is not a single reference to the criminal code in the articles.

They are so obvious I guess they just forgot to put em in eh?
03:41pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24519 posts
Vash the impeachment process was never going to result in removal. It's like jumping out of a plane and knowing you didn't even pack a parachute beforehand.
03:46pm 20/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26863 posts
trump's extreme criminality forced the dems to impeach. There are enough conspiracy numpties who believe that trump has done nothing wrong and that the impeachment process was unfair while also being some sort of hoax to create a nice little surge of support. That's what infi is celebrating. A president so brazen in committing crimes that the opposing side is forced to take action despite the knowledge it may harm them.
06:34pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3850 posts
trump's extreme criminality forced the dems to impeach


See like the Mueller report fpot is sketchy on the detail.

The articles of impeachment do not refer to the US criminal code at all.

Odd if he has engaged in "extreme criminality". But then we all really know "extreme criminality" means "fpot has his panties in a scrunch over the results of the 2016 election".

A president so brazen in committing crimes that the opposing side is forced to take action despite the knowledge it may harm them.


Imagine really believing this.
07:27pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6200 posts
Alot of his 'best people' are criminals. Scum attracts scum.
08:30pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3851 posts
So that was a no you can't name a single crime Trump has been impeached over.

It's not surprising. Not much of a reader are ya little fella.
09:11pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24520 posts
The Mueller report was supposed to be damning. It couldn't generate an impeachment. And the s*** he's being impeached on is not a criminal offence because he's a Head of State talking to another head of state. For f***'s sake Biden hit the same country up to remove. A prosecutor as well. This is hopeless, embarrassing potato level politicking.
09:20pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6201 posts

Got that from Trump's ad did we, Infi?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/oct/11/donald-trump/trump-ad-misleads-about-biden-ukraine-and-prosecut/

He doesnt have a good track record with honesty unfortunately.


09:56pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24521 posts
ohhhh so THAT threat to withhold funding until the Ukraine prosecutor was fired was OK. RIGGGHHHHT
10:06pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3852 posts
F*** me. The lack of reading. And also lol PolitiFact.

It rates this comment as "false"

Fact: Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire its prosecutor .... Fact: the prosecutor said he was forced out for leading a corruption probe into Hunter Biden's company. Fact: Democrats want to impeach President Trump for discussing this investigation with Ukraine's President."


But it goes on to say.

Biden assumed a lead role in U.S. diplomacy toward Ukraine after a popular revolution in early 2014 that led to pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych fleeing the country. Shokin became top prosecutor in 2015, after Yanukovych went into exile. A frustrated Biden in Dec. 2015 threatened to withhold $1 billion unless Shokin was fired, in hopes that a new prosecutor would do more to enforce the law. According to Biden, it worked.


Double think is a completely real thing it turns out. Its false Joe Biden pressured Ukraine. But also Joe Biden *literally says he did it*.

Funny how we don't want to discuss specific crimes isnt it.
10:12pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6202 posts
Of course Infi. The difference is, Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rival.
10:57pm 20/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24522 posts
Of course Infi. The difference is, Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rival.


Just like how the Obama govt investigated its political rival? Cool story.
11:04pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6203 posts
You mean the FBI?
11:23pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3853 posts
Yeah. The now disgraced evidence tampering Obama FBI.
11:36pm 20/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6204 posts
Heh. Comedy. Obama's FBI. That's enough dose of dumb exposure for today.
11:58pm 20/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3854 posts
Aww someone doesn't understand how the executive branch works.

Add it to the list.
06:48am 21/12/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41400 posts
good to see scomo living up to his reputation of being a complete C***. Even Tone is a better person than him.

what a fail of a human being.
08:36am 21/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26864 posts
Heh. Comedy. Obama's FBI. That's enough dose of dumb exposure for today.
It's a deep state conspiracy.
01:09pm 21/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3855 posts
Chud
white supremacism
*Edit*
Functional democracy
Attacked America
Democracy will never recover
So much extremely criminality.
01:34pm 21/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26865 posts
It's also a fake news conspiracy.
01:44pm 21/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3856 posts
Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.

I mean that's because neither exist. But squeal more little piggy
03:57pm 21/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6205 posts
PP hasnt read it.
It was Obama, Clinton & Biden all along.
04:25pm 21/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26866 posts
A multi-faceted conspiracy amongst a secret cabal of deep state operatives are working in conjunction with the mass media who themselves are coordinating efforts in a secret plot against your favourite president donald trump. This is because they actually fear him. trump is a tireless warrior for government integrity and transparency and these deep state operatives are afraid of exposure. Only working together with the fake news conspiracy can they possibly hope to overcome this shining beacon of anti-corruption force, president donald trump.
05:18pm 21/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3857 posts
Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.


vash saying someone didn't read something. You mean like your precious fact check?

Or das Kapital.

Just so you both clear you don't anger or intimidate me. You are a pair of illiterate morons who squak at my pleasure.

Fpot "can't read" my posts but nevertheless puts a lot of effort into responding to them.
05:59pm 21/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6206 posts
Oh the insecurity.

Just so you both clear you don't anger or intimidate me. You are a pair of illiterate morons who squak at my pleasure.


Feeling the need to say this means you most definitely are angered.

Fpot "can't read" my posts but nevertheless puts a lot of effort into responding to them.


Hah holy s***. imagine saying this while doing that exact thing.
06:18pm 21/12/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
813 posts
fpot has lost so bad that he now creates strawmen prompt-free and is seemingly talking to himself in the mirror, or maybe its shouting at passers-by on the street like the street hobo he is. We'll never know

Vash has lost so bad that he keeps posting without realising he has owned himself. At least you can be sure you're right when Vash posts because his post frequency directly correlates with the amount of times he has been wrong in the last 48 hours.
06:30pm 21/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26867 posts
I like how the calm person in complete control of the situation, not angry at all, is so frenzied in denial that he'll accuse people of being illiterate with a sentence that doesn't make sense and a misspelled word.
06:30pm 21/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26868 posts
F*****g hell guys I lost because I didn't take some conspiracy numpties brave theory seriously and instead mocked it as the ridiculous bulls*** that it is. I am owned. Let's sit down guys and talk this one out. We'll be sure to find some middle ground between reality and the intertwined deep state and fake news conspiracy executing their coup of the white house.
06:35pm 21/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6207 posts
We'll be sure to find some middle ground between reality and the intertwined deep state and fake news conspiracy executing their coup of the white house.


lol
06:40pm 21/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3858 posts
Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.
Hah holy s***. imagine saying this while doing that exact thing.


In which vash copies. But don't worry fpot found an autotext error.

Dance monkey.
07:05pm 21/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3859 posts
Noted Russian assest Trump places sanctions on massive Russian gas pipeline.
11:04am 22/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26869 posts
I am comforted by the fact that Australians would like me to be here simply so I can be here alongside them as they go through this terrible time
A thing Scott Morrison actually said in response to his holiday while Australia burns in totally normal fashion. Everything's fine we're just a dry continent which is also the reason for the floods we get.

Next time I don't show up to work while posting pics from the pub while I am chilling I'll tell the boss when I finally do arrive that I'm happy that my presence comforts them and that discussion of my absence is over.

I think you might be onto something when you say this guy is a c*** Spook.
03:46pm 22/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6208 posts

Its a trait in alot of conservatives.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167218769867?journalCode=pspc

Not the kind of thing you want in a leader of a nation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12784934

Analyzing political conservatism as motivated social cognition integrates theories of personality (authoritarianism, dogmatism-intolerance of ambiguity), epistemic and existential needs (for closure, regulatory focus, terror management), and ideological rationalization (social dominance, system justification). A meta-analysis (88 samples, 12 countries, 22,818 cases) confirms that several psychological variables predict political conservatism: death anxiety (weighted mean r = .50); system instability (.47); dogmatism-intolerance of ambiguity (.34); openness to experience (-.32); uncertainty tolerance (-.27); needs for order, structure, and closure (.26); integrative complexity (-.20); fear of threat and loss (.18); and self-esteem (-.09). The core ideology of conservatism stresses resistance to change and justification of inequality and is motivated by needs that vary situationally and dispositionally to manage uncertainty and threat.


And other traits


04:35pm 22/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3860 posts
It is hugely entertaining to watch people who scream everyone that disagrees them is evil talk about how "conservatives" are intolerant.

It will also be entertaining to watch you three talk about whoever the next liberal pm in exactly the same tone as you are about Morrison now.
05:15pm 22/12/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1246 posts
There is so much hate on the left. It's a primitive emotion akin to primates. The left wing monkey people.

Fire management is a state responsibility. Morrison came back for the retarded voters who are affected by "feels" like baby kissing and hand shaking. He should have stayed in Hawaii.
05:42pm 22/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3861 posts
If he was in the country they'd just be complaining about him being here.

For example, the guardian complained when Abbott volunteered to fight fires.here

The actual complaint is simply their guy lost. Nothing more.
06:17pm 22/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26870 posts
What emotions would you consider not to be primitive?
06:37pm 22/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6209 posts
The actual complaint is simply their guy lost. Nothing more.


Ah as expected, simple analysis by a simpleton when he doesnt like what academics say.
06:56pm 22/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24523 posts
ScoMo shouldn't have come home. Now his daughters will be scarred.
07:03pm 22/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3862 posts
Ah as expected, simple analysis by a simpleton when he doesnt like what academics say.


Dance little monkey, dance.
07:24pm 22/12/19 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12414 posts
Fire management is a state responsibility.
It sure is.
Morrison came back for the retarded voters who are affected by "feels" like baby kissing and hand shaking.
He came back because the optics were bad and his holiday was over. There was really no point rushing home 18 hours early, a bit laughable really. But his advisors are trying to salvage something out of the situation.
He should have stayed in Hawaii.
He should never have gone, but yes there was no point coming back once he'd done the deed. He was f***ed the moment he buggered off, which I'm surprised they don't seem to have considered. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
11:51am 23/12/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1247 posts
What emotions would you consider not to be primitive?


As you asked me a question I will try to answer.. typically you ignore my questions. Typically you provide a short answer to some questions and then rant with paragraphs of abuse.

Hmm I'm not sure, but I'm told anger is a "primitive mind" emotion. Possibly the higher the emotional expression, the more primitive. For example, a civilised evolved mind might prevent a person from gluing themselves to a road. Where as a less primitive mind might "chimp out" with emotional outrage and thus cloud their logical judgement. Like a triggered entitled placard wielder who voted, lost and so they plan illegal disruptions to society. An angry person is looking for a place to unleash. This is likely why exercising a hatred for Scomo and Trump is so attractive to you. I don't hate the Greens leader, I just don't agree with their policies. You on the other hand express hatred and anger. It's pretty freaking weird... but you lack the objectivity to see it because alcohol abuse and circle jerk echo chambers are egging you on.

You likely get a high from it. You are likely seeking a high because you are likely depressed. That is why you drink. To deal with the anxiety and depressing reality that your life is not as enjoyable as you wished it to be. You are looking for someone else to blame for your failure. Like I've tried to explain over the years... The heart of the issue is with the reluctance to accept responsibility.. and to seek externals to blame. You are quite an amazing case. When I divulged some minor successes in my life you ongoingly claim they are lies. You are expressing denial. I have no reason to lie. I could brag about how fantastic my life is, but it serves no point. At the time, the context of me explaining success was about sacrifice. Purchasing house first. Having kids later. Not buying a brand new car till had paid off a house in full. Somehow you interpret this as lies.

Silly. Cut back or stop the drinking frothpot and embrace increased levels of happiness. You do not seem very happy.
11:25pm 23/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6210 posts
Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.
Take a look at the verdict found on the cognition of conservatives, you'll find they're a lot more sensitive to primitive emotions than what they accuse the left of being.
11:52pm 23/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3863 posts
Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.


That's hysterical. Vash thinks he understands psychology, while being the physical embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect.

A bunch on lefty researchers found conservatives are authoritarian managed to overlook the Soviet Union, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Cambodia, North Korea, North Veitnam. But Vash found the final word.
08:11am 24/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24525 posts
But he sounds so knowledgeable!

I saw a headline that Democrats are going for a second impeachment now. Hahahaa
10:04am 24/12/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1248 posts

Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.
Take a look at the verdict found on the cognition of conservatives, you'll find they're a lot more sensitive to primitive emotions than what they accuse the left of being.


Neo nazi:

https://i.imgflip.com/3hnyqf.jpg

TDS

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/talking-about-men/201901/is-trump-derangement-syndrome-real-mental-condition

On the right side of things.... with the exception of some fairly hostile idiots on the end of the spectrum I doubt many people really give a s*** enough to get emotional about much. Now if we look at the left side of things.. wow... are you nuts Vash? Since Nov 2016 we've had a flood of liberal tears. Just take a look at fpot... He hopes people die... but he doesn't have TDS. Noooo. By frothpot's gauge he is mentally stable, clear headed and logical. Emotions don't cloud his judgement.
09:33pm 25/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26871 posts
I saw a headline that Democrats are going for a second impeachment now. Hahahaa
Why not? There's enough material for like, five impeachments.

You know what real projection is Nmag? It's your reaction to me calling you a worthless lying little incel boy by trying to do the same thing to me. It's effectiveness on you has given your tiny mind the idea that it will also work on me so you attack me with your half-baked theories based off the two or three drunk posts I've made on here over a period of years.I commend you actually taking my advice on trying to identify my weakness and attacking that, but because you're as dumb as s*** your execution has been a little lacking.

Here I'll help you out a bit more. My weakness is actually having to read the words of cowardly snivelling little pieces of s*** who try to portray themselves as pragmatic, calm rational thinkers when in reality they're just hate filled pieces of dogs*** who turn to the worst elements of right-wing politics in some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are. People who just outright say, yep I am full Nazi and I hate other cultures are fine by me because they're really easy to ignore and label as complete wastes of oxygen. Duplicitous little c**** like yourself? I find them very frustrating with their endless lies and bulls*** and that's where the anger comes from. So I guess you were attacking my weaknesses this whole time without knowing it, so just keep doing what you're doing if getting to me is your goal.
03:18pm 26/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3865 posts
I like how the calm person in complete control of the situation, not angry at all, is so frenzied in denial that
Here I'll help you out a bit more. My weakness is actually having to read the words of cowardly snivelling little pieces of s*** who try to portray themselves as pragmatic, calm rational thinkers when in reality they're just hate filled pieces of dogs*** who turn to the worst elements of right-wing politics in some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are


Squeal little piggy squeal. I love how this is supposed to be deep cutting insult. Except it's the s*** he always says.
03:43pm 26/12/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1249 posts
two or three drunk posts


How can your drivel be insulting when it's worth a good laugh?... 26871 posts

some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are


Are you implying we need more marxist nations to make the world a better place?

Maybe you're not drunk.. maybe you're high.
09:19pm 26/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26872 posts
Are you implying we need more marxist nations to make the world a better place?
Nah I'm implying we need to Make Frightened Incels Irrelevant Again because holy f*** look what happens when you guys are mobilised.
12:37pm 27/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24527 posts
I thought the irony of the incel insult would have neutralised it by now. Pretty much every ANTIFA/Greens activist is a text book incel.
12:46pm 27/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26873 posts
Nah that's just your tried and true method of declaring the opposite of reality is actually the truth. Which to be honest works quite well for you so I can see why you're still using it.

edit: Antifa only really exist in the Russian twitter bot disinformation sphere, but wouldn't a stereotypical Greens activist be more of the sexually promiscuous type?
12:51pm 27/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3866 posts
The main reason fpot uses incel is because, like calling everyone racist yet somehow knowing all the racist dogwhistles like the back of his hand, if he's in first he thinks it makes people think it doesn't apply to him.

Antifa only really exist in the Russian twitter bot disinformation sphere


Look at that juicy slow cooked conspiracy theory. With the hurling of incel keep in mind another insult fpot likes to sling

it's a deep state conspiracy


What a tiny little squeally piggy he is.
04:30pm 27/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24528 posts

hey guys ANTIFA doesn't exist. Did you know? Cos it's Russian bots who say it all the time. It:s totally not real. Wtf... Are you high?

https://twitter.com/TeenVogue/status/1209769646016122882?s=19


06:38pm 27/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6211 posts
Look at that juicy slow cooked conspiracy theory.


Obama's FBI. ehehe
08:02pm 27/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24529 posts
Oh look Vash still has no concept of executive government and accountability.
08:04pm 27/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6212 posts
Yeah no concept whatsoever. Obama's FBI even investigated their own secretary of state.
08:13pm 27/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3867 posts
Oh you mean that investigation where they bent over backwards not to find an obvious crime of a presidential candidate who was a member of Obama's party?

Imagine thinking that investigation proves Obama's FBI was unbiased.

Warm up the slow cooker. The Russians are here.

And best of all we learned that in vash/fpot world asking a foreign country to continue an investigation which was corruptly shutdown requires that trump be Impeached (but not to send the articles to the senate for trial) but having your own government (Obama's FBI) tamper with evidence to keep an investigation into a political rival open is just fine.
07:41am 28/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26874 posts
Well real in a sense that it's worth mentioning. See also voter fraud. If you were to believe Russian bot twitter/alt-right twitter, voter fraud is some sort of major widespread problem when in reality it is completely insignificant. Same as antifa. It's just used as a distraction against the surge in right-wing terrorism and trump helping foreign powers interfere in US elections which has happened now at least twice.
12:03pm 28/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3868 posts
Same as antifa. It's just used as a distraction against the surge in right-wing terrorism and trump helping foreign powers interfere in US elections which has happened now at least twice.


Gee it's entertaining to watch someone call everyone dumb who *routinely* says s*** that has literally no basis in reality.

What election did Ukraine interfere in again little piggy?
12:50pm 28/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24530 posts
Unlike the accepted reality that the DNC rigged its own primaries to ensure Hillary beat Bernie....

This is fpot's equivalent of a steamy romance novel -a place to lose one's worries about the dumpater fire of real life. Place where election interference actually occurred! So dreamy.
12:56pm 28/12/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26875 posts
I really cannot wait until all this s*** is over and things go back to normal again, but will they ever? How does the USA ever come back from this? It just seems impossible to me. Kind of like when that tsunami ripped through Japan. I remember looking at the damage it caused and thinking how do you even begin to repair this. Same thing here. The damage in Japan was repaired but the difference is everyone wanted it to be repaired. What happens when a large group of conspiracy numpties like yourself actually want the damage to remain and even get worse? That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f*****g clue how.
01:05pm 28/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3869 posts
That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f*****g clue how.


Have you tried calling everyone racist and sexist? While wearing a pussy hat?

If that didn't work...
01:51pm 28/12/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24531 posts
If that doesn't work, try going to their homes and protesting outside, calling them nazis and punching them in the face.
01:57pm 28/12/19 Permalink
Vash
6213 posts
That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f*****g clue how.


Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.
03:04pm 28/12/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3870 posts
Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example when a raging anti-Semite offers vash free broadband it's "anti-zionism".
04:29pm 28/12/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1250 posts
Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example. Where Australians who subscribe to news feeds that sell hate, fear and anxiety are enraged by an orange man on the other side of the planet who is the leader of a nation that makes up only 4.4% of world population.

ORANGE NAZI MAN COMING TO GET ME MUMMY!!

I'm glad I'm seeing less TDS fuel on the ABC web news since Buttrose took over. It was getting a bit ameri-centric and ridiculous. Pathetic really. Just look at the anxiety, depression and anger it causes in naive minds who forget to add a pinch of salt to ABC and Guardian cuck news. Readers been scared of the orange boogie man coming to get them since the "wake up to reality Nov 2016 denial episode" faded.

Don't worry, he won't get you. You are safe.

Looking forward to seeing some awesome fireworks tonight while half the east coast burns down in the background from ember attack.

Happy NYE.
05:15pm 31/12/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
814 posts
Yeah no concept whatsoever. Obama's FBI even investigated their own secretary of state.


What was the outcome of that investigation Vash? Was it James Comey admitting Clinton's actions were criminal but refused charges because apparently he knew her intention wasn't to deliberately cover up her own criminal activity? That's not something a partisan FBI would do at all.

Vash is taking self-owns to levels previously thought impossible.
03:08pm 01/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1251 posts
Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example when people who lack the understanding of local, state and federal functions rage on social media after their labor & green feeds complain about the federal leader in regards to bushfires.

I wish Scomo would do something about my rubbish collection. They missed a bin a few weeks ago.
03:47pm 04/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41405 posts
good to see scomo C***ING it up to the maximum around australia atm.
03:57pm 04/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24535 posts
All those adf troops and ships and funding for more water bombing planes. What a c***.
04:04pm 04/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39842 posts
All those adf troops and ships and funding for more water bombing planes. What a c***.
yeh just in time

congratulations, yours is the first post I've seen defending this government's "response" in 6 weeks
05:35pm 04/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24536 posts
The Federal govt....? I cannot believe the PM is being s***bagged for sending emergency assistance. These are state management issues.
05:53pm 04/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41406 posts
actually moar cringey than drumpf, which is quite an achievement.
06:13pm 04/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3871 posts
Can someone point out an important difference between scomo and krudds response to Black Saturday?

Barry Cassidy is saying that scomos leadership isn't tenable anymore.

Probably ironclad proof he's sweet for three more elections.
06:35pm 04/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41407 posts
as much as scomo is a complete c*** of a human and completely f*****g up atm with his total lack of leadership and empathy for his country, you are right.

it will all be forgotten soon enough and he will probably still be prime minister after the next election.
07:20am 05/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26881 posts
The Federal govt....? I cannot believe the PM is being s***bagged for sending emergency assistance. These are state management issues.
Imagine what we'd be able to achieve if they started believing science was real.

edit: heh and also I'm not going to even bother asking you how you reconcile your previous trump ending the wars in the middle east with his latest hijinks because I've already been fully briefed by Russian troll farm twitter. Suffice to say if you were an actual functioning human being you'd be feeling pretty embarrassed right now.
07:44am 05/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3872 posts
Yeah but if it's *total lack of leadership and empathy* it probably wouldn't be forgotten.

Other than authorise aid and ADF involvment what is he actually supposed to do?

Hence how is what he has done importantly different to what krudd did in 2009? He's probably kissed less babies and done less church doorstep interviews.

Imagine what we'd be able to achieve if they started believing science was real.


Maybe it's something like this is it spook? Nothing says leadership like harping on about single use plastic bags and roof top solar during a "national emergency".
07:46am 05/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24537 posts
Trump's move was masterful. He cut off the snake at the head. Surgical, swift, measured response. Just like the Syrian Tomahawk strike. Let's see if Iran has the guts to arm another militia. Trump has reminded Iran there are 52 strategic Iranian targets already marked. They need to be careful.

(America has a long history of interference in the Middle East which is globalist folly but Trump is dealing with a century old legacy, and most importantly protecting humans US citizens there).

Morrison was late to the party. It should have been all hands on the pumps. He has now activated national resources and I am glad he is advertising these actions so taxpayers now directly affected know their taxes are at work.

Donate to Red Cross and stop whinging.
01:46pm 05/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1252 posts
We have lots of people in Australia who have little idea about what is a local, state or federal role.
08:38pm 05/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26882 posts
Trump's move was masterful.
lol
10:01pm 05/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3873 posts
Poor old fpot.

It must be hard not being able to tell the difference between killing someone who ordered an attack on a US embassy in Iraq and invading Iran.

I mean imagine how hard it is for him to tie his shoelaces if he can't tell the difference between those things.
07:35am 06/01/20 Permalink
Vash
6215 posts


4d chess eh Infi?
Scotty another 'leader' who can do no wrong it seems.
10:44am 07/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24539 posts
I think he has learned a few lessons .
11:45am 07/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3874 posts
Yeah he's probably learned noone with brains cares what an internet comedian says.

I love the serious face appeal to the queen because "she fired Whitlam".

I wonder if he knows....
12:41pm 07/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24540 posts
jordy is a paid political operative for left-wing parties. should we call him #jordyfrommarketing?

GUYZ THESE ARE SCOTT MORRISON'S FIREZ cringe, this hurts to watch the histrionics. very clickable i imagine
01:30pm 07/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26884 posts
It's a friendlyjordies conspiracy.
01:32pm 07/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3875 posts
Man who is always critical of liberal party criticized the liberal party.

Fpot comes up with this.
It's a friendlyjordies conspiracy.


Could have used a chud.
02:11pm 07/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1253 posts
Nearly 200 arsonists "charged".
03:04pm 07/01/20 Permalink
Vash
6216 posts
Man who is incapable of being critical of the liberal party doesn't like when someone criticizes the liberal party.
04:50pm 07/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3876 posts
Man who is incapable of being critical of the liberal party doesn't like when someone criticizes the liberal party.


Imitation is a sincere form of flattery vash. Read Das Kapital yet little fella?
04:54pm 07/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2342 posts
09:27am 08/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3877 posts
If your refutation comes from an "academic" who's found "bots" on twitter you might want to do a bit more googling yourself buddy.
183 arrests so far.
09:46am 08/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24541 posts
Man who is always critical of liberal party criticized the liberal party.


More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.
11:15am 08/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3878 posts
More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.


Well I can't talk to that, but the way he talks about Sally McManus, she might be entitled to a restraining order yikes.

It's like he thinks she's in charge of the unions or something. But some how John Setka still runs the CFMEU. For a guy who bashes on about "manufacturing consent" he's distinctly uncurious about that. I mean maybe he is being paid not to be. I guess we'll never know.

Holy s*** speaking of the CFMEU, they just called for more logging and aggressive fuel management to control fires.

That's going to make albos life sticking on message difficult. The drunk old uncles who don't believe the science are your donor base - eep.
12:09pm 08/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24542 posts
Reminiscent of when Howard exploited CFMEU forestry workers in Tas to win the 2004 election.

Are the ALP and Greens the parties of workers?
12:23pm 08/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26885 posts
More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.
Yes their leadership and response have been above reproach and any criticism levelled at them is surely explained by the friendlyjordies conspiracy and arsonist conspiracy.
12:29pm 08/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24543 posts
Not beyond approach, but let's call his commentary what it is. He's not just a concerned citizen.
12:38pm 08/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26886 posts
lol 'beyond approach'. You dumb f***.
12:49pm 08/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2343 posts

If your refutation comes from an "academic" who's found "bots" on twitter you might want to do a bit more googling yourself buddy.
183 arrests so far.


It's a paywall.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-08/fires-misinformation-being-spread-through-social-media/11846434

This says 24 arrests for arson. I've seen other reports about people using power tools incorrectly or throwing a cig out of the window which have started fires which the police are considering "legal action" for.

edit: here:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw-fires-legal-action-taken-against-183-people-this-bushfire-season-20200106-p53p97.html
12:51pm 08/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3879 posts
You can see the gist of the story from the opening paragraph redhat.

The ABC writing a story about the same guy who thinks he's found bots doesnt change that.

And frankly including the opinion of a la Trobe political communications "expert" makes the story less credible.

the 24 figure relates only on nsw.

Now I want you to put your misinformation hat on for a second.

What would you call it if you ran a story from a guy who runs python scripts on twitter for a living saying a figure which is real is a misinformation campaign and then selectively quote a number without giving it's proper context and then get the opinion of political communications expert on why Twitter bots a such a threat?

Even more deceptively, they exclude the little nugget that 29 fires in the Shoalhaven region are suspected to have been lit deliberately. That's the region that has been hit the hardest.

Better yet the ABC says the tweets say 200 arrests in NSW and they manage to show pictures saying 200 across Australia.

That article is a total train wreck.
01:17pm 08/01/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
815 posts
lol 'beyond approach'. You dumb f***.


Imagine how dumb you'd have to be to think you got someone on an autocorrect.
01:22pm 08/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1254 posts
arsonist conspiracy


Frothpot Gold
10:38am 09/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39844 posts
This says 24 arrests for arson. I've seen other reports about people using power tools incorrectly or throwing a cig out of the window which have started fires which the police are considering "legal action" for.
I drove up to Coolum for Xmas and saw a small patch of burned out area on the side of the road - not huge, but in exactly the right area for a lit cigarette to land and create a small fire. There must be tons of these. Please switch to e-cigarettes.
10:39am 09/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1255 posts
M1 Pacific Motorway NSW Yesterday at 10:32 · - Did you know that from the 17th January 2020, if you chuck a lit cigarette out the window you can be fined up to $11,000 and lose 10 demerit points. If someone loses their life you could be jailed for up to 25 years for manslaughter. To report someone who has thrown a lit cigarette out the window of a vehicle, contact the NSW Rural Fire Service hotline on 1800 679 737
01:32pm 10/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26887 posts
So how close are we to the universal adoption of climate change is real but there's nothing we can do to stop it so why bother?
10:18pm 10/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39845 posts
So how close are we to the universal adoption of climate change is real but there's nothing we can do to stop it so why bother?
T+15 hours

https://trog.qgl.org/up/2001/too-late.jpg
10:04am 11/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24544 posts
And after we reduce Australia's 1% of total global emissions what next?
11:16am 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3880 posts
Here is fun game to play after you've finished spotting cigarettes on the side of the road.

Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?

Better yet let's start with the basics. Tell me the likelihood that RCP8.5 will be realised?

Seeing as everyone who hates Miranda Divine has a deep (or even cursory) understanding on the science.

Better yet seeing as trog lurvs Chinese fast trains so much maybe he can step us through the logic of allowing China to self identify as a "Developing Country" in 2016 under Paris meaning it's reduction targets don't begin until 2030 (after the world ends according to AOC in 2018).
11:30am 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3881 posts
Doh
01:10pm 11/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39846 posts
And after we reduce Australia's 1% of total global emissions what next?
I know this is a rhetorical question but I'll answer it:

- we make huge sums of money by our renewable energy companies selling, licensing, leasing, etc our awesome technology overseas
- we export our renewable power to nearby nations
- we use our vast surplus of energy, already creating negative prices in some areas, to create a new boom of industry and infrastructure as our companies can operate with low energy prices and without fear of negative PR and without having to navigate the seemingly totally inevitable carbon trading market
- Australia is held up as a beacon of light to other first world nations, who all realise at the same time that the this is the future and the faster they disassociate themselves from the fossil fuel industry, the better they will look. We pass a watershed moment where almost overnight, politicians around the world start treating the fossil fuel industry like they do the cigarette industry and statements like "Make sure you burn as much oil and gas as you can over summer" are never uttered again by a politician in the middle of the worst bushfire season Australia has ever seen.
- libertarians from around the world flock to Australia as global perception is that each household and corporation becomes a bastion of independence from the government-managed energy market; they leave again when they realise it was actually the government that figured out how to make it work like that and government is still are responsible for maintaining the last mile infrastructure that glues everything together
- every other country crash-starts their own renewable retrofitting process (paying Australia for the privilege because we have the best stuff, natch). Suddenly all those lame 2050 and beyond targets look stupid as everyone starts moving their renewable energy targets to 2030 because otherwise who gives a s***, right?
- the governments that sold off all our energy infrastructure, for one brief shining moment, look like forward-planning geniuses as the privatised energy plants are all rendered commercially useless and mothballed. After an extended cleanup period of the structure and surrounds, (another externality of the fossil fuel industry, socialised and paid for by the taxpayers) some are converted into blocks of units and regional art centres, revitalising the areas around them that were previously unliveable due to pollution and toxicity.
- as the air clears around the country, Australians suffer less physical ailments as a result of air pollution. Our healthcare costs reduce significantly.
- along with the clearer air, Australians also get smarter without all those particulates clogging up our neural pathways, and alongside with all the extra money we save not having to fund treatment for an entire class of respiratory illnesses in our major population centres, we pump all that extra energy and cash into research, enabling us to solve the outstanding problems with nuclear fusion, which we then make available to the rest of the world for a modest fee
- Australia develops the first faster-than-light transport, long before Elon Musk even figures out how to put a robotic lander on Mars, and we terraform Mars and just for the laughs make it a kangaroo sanctuary
03:45pm 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3882 posts
- we export our renewable power to nearby nations


In which the article says they plan to build a solar generator with more than double the largest genarator of any kind and then build 4500 km of undersea cable. *Edit* oh yeah by 2027. Everyone will definitely move their 2050 targets to 2030 because we can sell electricity to Singapore for 4 hours a day in 2027.

"Nearby".

Yep that's climate solved and fixed forever there. Btw if you don't invest all your spare money in this you're personally responsible for bushfires.
05:42pm 11/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24545 posts
That is quite a story! A+
05:55pm 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3883 posts
we use our vast surplus of energy, already creating negative prices in some areas, to create a new boom of industry and infrastructure as our companies can operate with low energy prices and without fear of negative PR and without having to navigate the seemingly totally inevitable carbon trading market


Oh but infi for a single 5 or 15 minute trading block at 11am in November (I wonder what the bushfire danger index was that day, just thinking out loud) solar provided 50% of available generation.

That definately means the Chinese and Indian middle class won't want to eat beef, drive cars made from metal or plastic and live in houses made from some combination of steel and concrete by 2030.
06:59pm 11/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24546 posts
Doesn't Australia have like the second dearest electricity in the OECD? I need to research further at home.

Example

https://electricitywizard.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/retail-price-2017.png
07:04pm 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3884 posts
That graph must have been produced by a climate denier.

It shows the state with the most renewables paying the most for electricity.

But I've been assured that renewables are amazing and cost nothing.

It also shows Germany paying more that France. But that's impossible because Germany uses more renewables than France.
09:09pm 11/01/20 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6639 posts
It also shows QLD as paying ~36c/kwh
In 2017 I was paying closer to ~21c, I'm currently paying 22.9c.

Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?
10:38pm 11/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3885 posts
Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?


Or just most are paying 40c.
07:31am 12/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39847 posts
It also shows QLD as paying ~36c/kwh
In 2017 I was paying closer to ~21c, I'm currently paying 22.9c.

Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?
you're probably paying 22.9c / kWh, but there''s also probably a supply charge on your bill. If you include that and divide your kWh you'll get a more representative cost.

My kWh price is 29.1c and I have a 141c/day supply charge, so my total cost for the last quarter worked out at like 65c/kWh. BUT I get a 20% discount on the usage component for paying by direct debit, so it works out at 59c/kWh.

edit: I don't know if that's how they calculate it, just a guess?

You have reminded me I have been meaning to switch suppliers for a while so that is my job for Sunday morning - I look forward to navigating this minefield of a "market". Spreadsheet time!
09:07am 12/01/20 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6640 posts
My kWh price is 29.1c and I have a 141c/day supply charge


In QLD? If so, yes definitely shop around. My Daily supply charge is currently 99c.

Pulling usage stats from my inverter for my house (3 bed, stand alone house. 2 single occupants. 6.5kw Solar. Not energy conservation conscience) Energy Australia and AGL are pretty close to top of the list.
Simply Energy (who I was with), Energy Locals and Click Energy seem to be the worst (of the 11 plans I looked into.)
03:02pm 12/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24547 posts
So I guess Australia is a long way away from your negative energy price/Mars terraforming *cough* Total Recall *cough* utopia?

Can we just start with inventing a way to reliably deliver renewable baseload? South Australia thanks you in advance. I love my solar but its no help during peak tarriff 4-8pm.
03:42pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3886 posts
Oh but infi if we completely cover the northern territory in solar panels it'll be like real convincing when we beg China to reduce emissions this time.
04:14pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2344 posts
05:02pm 12/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24548 posts
I think poor old Simon has a renewable supply of nitrus. He is falling over himself to increase electricity prices and taxes like a self-flaggelating monk.
05:10pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3887 posts
Oh the guardian says it's "morally bankrupt" to point out China has to come along.

Well if they can still open jam jars after the election of trump I guess I've really been put in my place.

Some choice quotes
The physics of the climate system doesn’t care about political boundaries. Does Germany not matter because it’s responsible for (slightly) less than 2%, or does it matter because it’s part of the EU, responsible for 9.4% of emissions? How about if we divide China into 56 countries of 25 million people, each with emissions half of Australia’s – would that let them off the hook?


Yep the physics of climate change don't respect political boundaries. Which is why if 1.4 billion people don't sign up 23 million won't make a difference.

China and India haven’t yet peaked their emissions – unsurprising given their stage of development – but both are decoupling emissions from development such that their average citizen will never have the carbon footprint the average Australian has now.


China is developing country. Which is also the overwhelming largest emitter, building man made islands in the South China sea as SAM sites and creating global telecommunications companies to spy on everyone.

It's also funny how he fails to mention Germany is restarting brown coal generation and China is going to add Europe's entire coal fired power plant capacity in the next ten years.

See this is what you do when you don't have an argument. You feign moral outrage.

Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


This question continues to remain unanswered.
05:19pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Vash
6218 posts
My favorite was the sky news segment with Alan Jones constantly blaming the Greens for the bushfires during a crisis. Close second has to be all those front pages during elections by The Australian.
Butbut The Guardian!

creating global telecommunications companies to spy on everyone.


Guess who already does this.
06:09pm 12/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24549 posts
Guess which one is a developing nation... apparently.
06:19pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3888 posts
My favorite was the sky news segment with Alan Jones constantly blaming the Greens for the bushfires during a crisis. Close second has to be all those front pages during elections by The Australian.
Butbut The Guardian!
Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


See until this question has a sound answer (it doesn't have a sound answer, the *best* anyone has is if we adopt renewables it's more convincing for China not to use coal) linking the bushfires to climate policy is opportunistic politics of fear.

My favourite part of this so far has been the greens begging for handouts by email. I got a very friendly email from Di Natalie last week begging for political donations.
06:37pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2345 posts
This question continues to remain unanswered.


No it doesn't, see the graph under the bit that says
Share of global greenhouse emissions Put together, countries with emissions less than 2% of global emissions are larger than any other country.



Instead of going to international forums and actively fighting against reducing emissions we could be lobbying for it.

We could have been 10 years ahead of where we are now on exporting clean energy if there wasn't people standing in the way of a clean energy future.

Its f*****g sad that people want to keep burning fossil fuels as if it's some sort of capitulation to a left agenda.

I don't like breathing fumes, do you?
06:39pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Vash
6219 posts
Clean energy & climate change are associated with the left, so it must be a ruse.
Thats how far their thinking goes.

PP's question is another dishonest gotcha attempt, which is why it was ignored. Resolving the problem is an international effort, and by not doing anything much about it (going by our emissions per capita) we're signalling to other countries to do the same.
07:40pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3889 posts
This
Instead of going to international forums and actively fighting against reducing emissions we could be lobbying for it.

Is this
it doesn't have a sound answer, the *best* anyone has is if we adopt renewables it's more convincing for China not to use coal

Is this
PP's question is another dishonest gotcha attempt, which is why it was ignored. Resolving the problem is an international effort, and by not doing anything much about it (going by our emissions per capita) we're signalling to other countries to do the same.


Well not quite. Vash is also admitting he doesn't have an answer. While we are all listing things the physics of climate science don't care about, the physics of climate science don't care about emissions per capita.

The idea China and India will forgo a prosperous middle class because we ask nicely while installing solar panels is *moronic*. And a little racist.

Do you remember Copenhagen and Rudd and the "rat f*****g". Because I don't have the memory of a gold fish I'm not swayed by an academic squealing moral imperatives we've got no control over.

The simple fact is to make a difference to climate today which would have impacted the bushfires you need to believe if we had have adopted low emissions the US, continental Europe, China and India would have behaved other than they have. I put it to you there is literally no sane reason to believe that. Notwithstanding Simon's (f*****g moronic) point about our Olympics gold medal tally.

It's exactly this kind of magical thinking that puts the LNP in power and takes the sting out of all the climate rhetoric you people love to soak in.
07:40pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Vash
6220 posts
Yes PP. We should do nothing because those superpowers arent. It's interesting though that China is on track to doing more about their emissions output than the U.S, who are rolling back policy thanks to your man.
The left are willing to tackle the tough issues, and that means unpopular policy that might impact people's lavish lifestyles. All you guys have to do is say that other guy is stupid about that and we'll get you jobs.
08:00pm 12/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1256 posts
We are not seeing much of it right now as we are being very sensitive for those who lost property and lives... and people are arguing about arson and cycle climate change and how the federal guy reacts to state issues... but.. I guarantee we will eventually be seeing stuff like:

Cut your stupid flammable trees down around your property, clear your gutters, cut down that vegetation, get insurance, stop building s***** timber fire box houses in remote locations surrounded by bush. We may even see insurance companies saying "Sorry you need to cut more s*** down". I've lived in firezone for well more than a decade I'm very familiar with what goes on around here. RFS and fire management is very important being so close to bush... there are naive stupid people who live in houses covered in gums with vegetation growing like a jungle around their houses. Gutters full of leaves.

You see it when you live in the middle of it. We have residents asking the council to clear the load on the ground behind their houses. The council is saying "You do it and we will remove the pile" and nutter Greens carrying on about "Don't disturb the load, it's habitat". That's what is going on in my suburb. Over winter we had some hazard reduction burns. We had people complaining. We had far more people saying we need it, and we have more people saying "It's not enough, burn more!".

They can say what they like on TV about doing enough hazard reduction, and the Greens not affecting risk.. well we have enough arguments around here about the 10:50 rule. The Greens opposing it, and people wanting to cut down trees and council saying no... and Greens wanting to plant more and more flammable trees (instead of european trees) all over the friggin neighborhood and enough Greens around here complaining about the affects of hazard reduction on habitat and animals to conclude what we are seeing on mainstream media as BS.

I foresee a shift from "Have a plan. Be bushfire prepared. Box ticked. We communicated to you" to "Here is a formal request to the land manager to sort your crap out. We are legally demanding you clean up your property'.

In 2006 we had a new building code come in for fire zones. It's off the charts... I doubt many places built to that code, that maintained their vegetation and have clean gutters went up in smoke. Our current home is built to the new code, it's like a fortress, particularly on the bush side. The roof has all these extra layers, metal screens, roller shutters, sealed eves. Head down the street and some 70's houses covered in eucalypts on top of north facing hills are cedar boxes covered in leaves just waiting to go boom. I hope they have insurance, cause we do and these "We were not insured stories" are hard to comprehend. I hate insurance but home and contents.. man that's just a a necessary evil if you have property. Even when I was young and rented.. contents insurance was pretty cheap.
08:51pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3890 posts
Yes PP. We should do nothing because those superpowers arent.


Imagine typing this thinking you'd made a point. Is it super power or developing nation? I can't keep up. The argument vash is that because those superpowers/developing nations haven't done anything (or more precisely haven't done enough) there is no policy we could have adopted that would have made a difference to these bushfires. Hence yours and the greens squealing is the politics of fear. I know it's hard to keep two things in your head at once but do try.

It's interesting though that China is on track to doing more about their emissions output than the U.S, who are rolling back policy thanks to your man.


No they aren't. And linking trump to this merely emphasizes the empty rhetoric you idiots wallow in. Enjoy opposition. It's gonna be a while.
09:01pm 12/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3891 posts
Here's some dancing for you redhat

Climate scold wet dream
In Essen, in Germany’s Ruhr Valley, I saw a technology that allows power-hungry aluminium smelters to operate well (and increase profits) in renewable-dominated grids. The technology was first developed in Gladstone and partly Australian-owned before being sold offshore.


Climate reality
Nord stream 2 to go ahead. Despite US Sanctions.

Germany is making aluminium with out natural gas, but will bust sanctions to get more natural gas. You need to wake up and smell what you been shovelin boyo.
11:04pm 12/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26888 posts
brb guys just growing some non-flammable european trees in a completely different climate to what they're suited to. I'm confident they're going to grow really well!

lol, what a giant pile of utter bulls***. You're such a f*****g moron.
08:30am 13/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39848 posts
So I guess Australia is a long way away from your negative energy price/Mars terraforming *cough* Total Recall *cough* utopia?
dammit I was sure that your first reply would be the scathing "sci fi" one but I guess it took a while to digest. I just lost a buck!. (btw one of the links I provided was to one of the several places in Australia where we already are seeing negative prices emerge. I think that is a short-term abberration though and it will quickly level out e.g., as the bitcoin miners move in.)


Can we just start with inventing a way to reliably deliver renewable baseload? South Australia thanks you in advance.
this old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.

I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully (at least in the short term; I admit the jury is still out for the long term but things are looking great so far) to include more renewables in the mix.

SA is exporting power these days!
I love my solar but its no help during peak tarriff 4-8pm.
I'm very sorry that this relatively new movement with minimal support from the government and active hostile opposition from all quarters from an existing centuries old rich as f*** commercial sector is not able to immediately able to solve all your problems!

You are making the same mistake everyone makes on all sides of the issue, from the most ardent coal burning, f*** the planet, just put air conditioners outside types to the hippy dippy greens that think we should turn off the coal plants like yesterday: it takes time to make these changes. Imagine being in rural Queensland 50 years ago and you're still waiting for someone to put up a power line to your property - it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and all the other great infrastructure achievements of the 20th century in socialised western society - the roads, the power grids, the telecom networks - took a while to be established.

This is like that, but bigger, harder, more important, and more revolutionary.
He is falling over himself to increase electricity prices and taxes like a self-flaggelating monk.
strawman, but ... electricity prices should be more expensive, if they're coming from fossil fuel resources. Unless you don't believe in market-based economy for energy. Wait, are you a socialist? You think these externalities should just be paid for by the tax payer?!
09:49am 13/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39849 posts
In QLD? If so, yes definitely shop around. My Daily supply charge is currently 99c.

Pulling usage stats from my inverter for my house (3 bed, stand alone house. 2 single occupants. 6.5kw Solar. Not energy conservation conscience) Energy Australia and AGL are pretty close to top of the list.
The government fortunately makes a good comparison site Energy Made Easy - I found this late after trying a few others like Compare the Market which was missing a bunch of the options (I assume because they don't get referral fees from several of the companies).

I am leaning towards Qantas Red Energy now; they're a little more expensive than the cheapest option but still way better than what I'm paying now, plus I get a QFF points bonus for signing up AND I get 2 points per dollar through the year. I think I'll stick with them for a year and revisit.

edit: I accept that it is f*****g ludicrous beyond f*****g belief to be paying Qantas for electricity generation but that's the world we live in now
09:59am 13/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24550 posts

Vash

From January last year to June this year, countries outside China decreased their total coal power capacity by 8.1 gigawatts through steady retirements and an ongoing decline in the commissioning of new coal plants. But across the same period China increased its coal fleet by 42.9GW, and as a result the global coal fleet overall grew by 34.9GW.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/asias-powerhouse-fuels-global-surge-in-coal-use/news-story/036671a2882cacfec880d7b0fdd0d480

his old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.

I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully


Our ACCC graph from above says they are the most expensive power is Australia, soo.....
10:39am 13/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3892 posts
this old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.


Yeah "this old thing" being powerplants that can't operate at night can't power a modern society. Nailed it. Oh and the only person who disagrees is Chris Kenny. Not answering the question and a conspiracy theory it's like a twofa!


I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully (at least in the short term; I admit the jury is still out for the long term but things are looking great so far) to include more renewables in the mix.


I love how *literally the entire state losing electricity for days* is "minor reliability issues". And yes trog is totally arguing in good faith here. 9-11 was some people did some stuff eh?

SA exports solar between 11 and 2 but imports coal from 6pm until sunrise. Climate totes fixed like forever.
11:16am 13/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39851 posts
Our ACCC graph from above says they are the most expensive power is Australia, soo.....
oh sorry I thought you wanted reliable power!

SA was the most expensive, but now VIC is, looking at 2019 - by a whisker.

Considering the most recent two years since the ACCC graph, SA's renewable mix went from 39% to 65%. In VIC it's around 20%.

It's probably more useful to look at the trends over time rather than the absolute prices - doing the maths from the above AEMO data:

- SA's price from 2017->2018 went down by 10%, then up by 12%
- In the same period, VIC's price went up 39% and up 19%.
- Victoria is now in the same reliability gap state as SA - probably more susceptible to issues because their grid is less resilient, although I haven't heard about any problems there (though I've been overseas for 3 months and don't pay much attention to VIC at the best of times)
- we're only 2 weeks into 2020 but SA has the biggest decrease in prices so far over previous years of all the states - 36%, (QLD: 22%, NSW: 6%, Tas: 20%, VIC: 22%)

Anyway I don't think any of that stuff actually matters: it's increasingly obvious the old way of doing things is dead and buried. The future isn't renewables because it's going to save the planet; that's practically now just a fringe benefit. It's now just cheaper and better in pretty much all respects and Australia - a giant empty country with a ton of natural advantages - is uniquely poised to take advantage of it. If our government decides to help out and start being a leader instead of whatever they call whatever they're doing now, we can reap all the advantages of it instead of just some of them.
01:01pm 13/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3893 posts
Jesus it's like talking to someone in the upsidedown.

The reliability gap opened in Victoria directly *after* Hazelwood was closed and this is used as an argument that Victoria's reliance on coal is the reason for its lack of reliability.

Victoria is literally trying to copy SA and it's power is getting less reliable just like SA.
Taken together, despite 60% of Australia's generation capacity coming from coal he arrives at:

Anyway I don't think any of that stuff actually matters: it's increasingly obvious the old way of doing things is dead and buried.
01:34pm 13/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24551 posts
Look at China for the future: more coal plants each year than Australia's entire coal power output... But it's critical Australia works to curb its emissions.....
01:49pm 13/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39852 posts
Look at China for the future: more coal plants each year than Australia's entire coal power output... But it's critical Australia works to curb its emissions.....
oh if CHINA are doing it, yeh

I just spent 3 months in Hong Kong and definitely came back thinking "yes we should do more things like China"

I don't know if outside of China it's even going to be possible to build a new coal plant soon; a whole bunch of coal-related activities are becoming uninsurable now as people back away for various reasons. If the cost of insurance goes up it's gonna change the equation significantly for coal prices (again).
05:11pm 13/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41410 posts
i love the whole argument "china and india arent doing anything, so we shouldnt".

its just such a sensible approach.
07:42pm 13/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24552 posts
So you are happy for Australian energy prices and taxes to increase to subsidise renewables while China builds equivalent to Australia's present coal generating capacity every year?
07:49pm 13/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41411 posts
yes, there will be some pain for consumers initially. worth it in the long run when we get renewables up and functioning. Nothing good is easy.
07:56pm 13/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1257 posts

brb guys just growing some non-flammable european trees in a completely different climate to what they're suited to. I'm confident they're going to grow really well!

lol, what a giant pile of utter bulls***. You're such a f*****g moron.


A true insight into frothpot's lack of education and narrow knowledge.

https://www.recreatingthecountry.com.au/blog/deciduous-trees-can-provide-crucial-bushfire-protection

http://www.convictcreations.com/animals/bushfire.html

https://www.jimsmowing.com.au/2016/02/fire-retardant-trees-and-plants/

https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/10/23/4112923.htm

"If you live in an area which is prone to fire, then you need to make a decision about what to keep near your house and what to remove.... And definitely place deciduous trees around your house, rather than native trees," she says." (ABC Journalist)
09:44pm 13/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39853 posts
So you are happy for Australian energy prices and taxes to increase to subsidise renewables while China builds equivalent to Australia's present coal generating capacity every year?
Can you not imagine people wanting to pay more for a better product? The cheapest option is rarely the best. Especially when it's made in China :D

This is like when you play online video games and one player says something foul and abusive, and then some other player takes that as a cue to respond with something equally or more foul and abusive, and it creates this negative feedback loop of toxicity which makes the whole game extremely unpleasant.

You don't just base your behaviour on what everyone else is doing.
08:54am 14/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3894 posts
Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


Just won't get answered will it.

Can you not imagine people wanting to pay more for a better product?


Now we are talking about luxury electricity. And about how coal power can't be insured. I'm sure this comes as suprise to the operators of Loy Yang.

It's only a better product if it addresses climate change but it can't if China keep adding coal capacity. So actually it's just the same product but more expensive. And a second ago it was cheaper and more reliable.

It is fascinating to watch IT type people lose their s*** when you stick words like "distributed" or "virtual" or a lower case i or e in front of a well understood technology.

You don't just base your behaviour on what everyone else is doing.


To address climate change this is actually exactly what has to happen.
09:34am 14/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24553 posts
I guess we just arrived at the crux of the discussion. Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good. I want to feel good by making others pay more for their carbon.
10:20am 14/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3895 posts
Virtue.

Virtue.

Where are you virtue.

I liked conspicuous consumption more when it was a Jaguar that didn't work.

Maybe we can just start producing virtual iCoal and please everyone.
10:51am 14/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39854 posts
I guess we just arrived at the crux of the discussion. Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good. I want to feel good by making others pay more for their carbon.
You persist in saying the only reason to do it is "feeling good" and ignore the many actual, real, tangible benefits that you get immediately, and the many potentially beneficial outcomes that might result if we go down this path in a serious way.

You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.

You persist in treating "carbon" like everyone should be free to dump it into the air at everyone opportunity despite the fact that it is a known pollutant. You need to admit to yourself that pollution is a negative externality and burning coal results in this pollution, so it needs to be factored into the price. (You were such a big cheerleader of Trump's China tariffs - surely you should be a big fan of more tariffs based on their carbon output, if they don't sign up to the surely inevitable global carbon trading scheme?)

Australia is not just good for is digging things out of the ground and then putting them on ships and selling them to other people; the only thing that will make Australian jobs is not giving them a hardhat and a pick.

This is indeed an excellent, unique property of our country, and a great skill to have. But it's clear mining jobs are on the decline as our automation gets better and an outcome of more feckless Australian mining billionaires seems like a pretty steep price to pay for a small handful of jobs, bad air, and the ability to throw our hands up in the air and say "well everyone ELSE is doing it".

I would rather be able to look at these other richer, bigger countries and say "we're doing the right thing, even though it's costing us more, because that's what leadership is".

I say this as someone that doesn't really even mind selling coal to China for the next decade! I just think we should do it SMRT. In a way that enriches all Australians (no one should become rich for digging up coal, just like no one should become rich for selling weapons), and helps us future proof our country and the world (every dollar of coal we sell should have a dollar tax on it that goes to building out our renewable energy), and so on.

Man I already miss having a full time job again, it was great not having time to think about this stuff while breathing in the deadly polluted air of Hong Kong

[edit to remove something that was vaguely like an unintentional personal attack]
10:56am 14/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41412 posts
according to infi and crew we should all be trying to screw the planet as much as the next guy, just so he doesnt have to pay a little more for his resources.

no one cares about the future!
11:26am 14/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3896 posts
[edit to remove something that was vaguely like an unintentional personal attack]
You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.


Looks like you let one through to the keeper there bud.

according to infi and crew we should all be trying to screw the planet as much as the next guy, just so he doesnt have to pay a little more for his resources


You forgot "we borrow the planet from our children".

While you're doing things that really change the world you should consider super gluing yourself to a pedestrian crossing.
03:44pm 14/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41413 posts
hey, i bought myself a sodastream for xmas, to try and reduce my wastes this year. i have a fierce fizzy addiction.

last edited by Spook at 16:01:43 14/Jan/20
03:52pm 14/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24554 posts
You persist in saying the only reason to do it is "feeling good" and ignore the many actual, real, tangible benefits that you get immediately, and the many potentially beneficial outcomes that might result if we go down this path in a serious way.

You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.

You persist in treating "carbon" like everyone should be free to dump it into the air at everyone opportunity despite the fact that it is a known pollutant. You need to admit to yourself that pollution is a negative externality and burning coal results in this pollution, so it needs to be factored into the price. (You were such a big cheerleader of Trump's China tariffs - surely you should be a big fan of more tariffs based on their carbon output, if they don't sign up to the surely inevitable global carbon trading scheme?)


none of this is true. I am perfectly fine with reducing carbon emissions as part of a globally coordinated effort - it is great to be efficient with resources and be kind to our planet. but when the world's largest emitter is increasing its emissions every year to grow its economy with polluting industry, i am not prepared to degrade our country's standard of living by increasing taxes and energy prices.

focusing on Australia's sins when they are just a minnow, is pointless hand-wringing.

also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?

(Trump's tarrifs were a bilateral response to China cheating World Trade Organisatrion rules and currency manipulation. He knows that China's conduct needs to be addressed.)
04:00pm 14/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41414 posts
also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?


probably nothing.

but what about in 10 years time? or 15 or 20?

if we had started to do more sooner, maybe we'd be reducing climate impact now, maybe it would be in the future.
04:03pm 14/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3897 posts
Try the creamy soda with your machine spooky. It's pretty tasty.

The ginger beer one is an ok mixer for rum.
07:05pm 14/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41415 posts
im a no flavour guy. just want the fizzy water.

working good so far, but that gas bottle dont go far!
07:53pm 14/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24555 posts
Do you know what gas is in the Soda Stream cannisters?

Hint: China is the world's largest emitter of this gas.
08:17pm 14/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3898 posts
Spook is doing his part to sequester it. Be the change infi.
08:18pm 14/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39855 posts
none of this is true
then your writing style is very confusing because it conveys the exact opposite
I am perfectly fine with reducing carbon emissions as part of a globally coordinated effort - it is great to be efficient with resources and be kind to our planet
Finally we're on the same page, one world government! You should lead with this next time, instead of saying "but China is doing it so we might as well"
focusing on Australia's sins when they are just a minnow, is pointless hand-wringing.
why bother doing anything in the face of adversity, is what you're saying? just because the odds are overwhelming that it will make a difference?

There are sooooo many amazing stories across all of human history where a single person managed to effect great change against a seemingly insurmountable opponent through their (sometimes literal) blood, sweat and tears so taking on a weeny little molecule like carbon dioxide doesn't seem like it's gonna be that big a deal if we just get our s*** together a bit.

Anyway my favourite story is that of Clair Patterson.

He's basically the guy that is responsible for us not still breathing in lead alongside all the other delicious car exhaust fumes that fill our skies. In the 60s he figured out there was suddenly just a s***load of lead in the air that wasn't in there before and that it was coming from leaded petrol. Despite a massive concerted campaign from the main manufacturer of same and the cronies they gave cash to, he was eventually able to convince the world that it was a bad thing and, well, that's why we buy unleaded. (Bill Bryson's excellent "A Short History of Nearly Everything" has a much better but still brief recap on the story.)
also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?
well, I'm sure there are many things; it feels more relevant to focus on the fact that climate predictions seem to be coming true alongside the fact that we not taken them very seriously until now?

I'm not an expert so I don't know what we should have done, but it seems like a ton of s*** we could have done - treated pollution like a cost instead of something we get for free, designed our cities for people instead of cars, stopped chopping down trees, planted more trees... gone nuclear?! Built more dams, built more hydro. Massive taxes on mining and selling our coal locally and overseas.

It's a pretty interesting question though; I will spend some time looking to see if anyone else has answered it.
10:41pm 14/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24556 posts
then your writing style is very confusing because it conveys the exact opposite


nope, because as you read on, harming our own citizens' economic prosperity to literally go backwards on a target is futile and counter-productive. china is digging the hole faster than we can fill even a fraction 1% of it. if private enterprise wants to develop new energy efficiency technologies that's awesome - it has nothing to do with the global politics of coordinated carbon reductions.

Finally we're on the same page, one world government!


again, nope. I am not a Fabian marxist. if we cannot keep USSR, Sudan or Yugoslavia together what makes you think a world government would work, notwithstanding the UN's unparalleled ability to foster sex trafficking. Really.... you seriously yearn for a one world government? Have you not read Animal Farm?

There are sooooo many amazing stories across all of human history where a single person managed to effect great change against a seemingly insurmountable opponent


I suggest you work on China if you want a seemingly insurmountable opponent that can make a big difference. while you are there you can learn about the potential benefits of One World Government.
11:21pm 14/01/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
816 posts
People who want a One World Government haven't been to the rest of the world. You think the rest of the world will adopt foundations of democracy because you say so? The rest of the world is a s*** hole and the values of those s*** holes are also s***.

This is more than enough to dismiss any argument made by its supporters on the virtues of any global policy.

What about the gay conservative that killed himself because the left bullied him into suicide? Isn't that a real big piece of morbid irony.
08:12am 15/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41416 posts
What about the gay conservative that killed himself because the left bullied him into suicide?


steady on there. old mate was pretty f*****g messed up before he went and got himself on the news young liberalling s*** all over the place.
08:18am 15/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39856 posts
Have you not read Animal Farm?
have you not read sarcasm
08:45am 15/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39857 posts
because as you read on, harming our own citizens' economic prosperity to literally go backwards on a target is futile and counter-productive
/this/ is the crux, not your (insulting) view that people just want to do it because they want to "feel good":

- you think starting a programme to reduce emissions, switch to renewables, etc, will harm our economic prosperity

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it

how about the timing on this one though
09:15am 15/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24557 posts
have you not read sarcasm


it's hard to detect with Greens voters given their entire platform is riddled with irony.

- you think starting a programme to reduce emissions, switch to renewables, etc, will harm our economic prosperity


i have explained multiple times on here that this is achieved by placing a levy on energy costs, in order to subsidise renewables, which in turns increases the cost of every consumer item. so yes, it is inevitable that our economic prosperity will be harmed by such programmes.

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it


how will increasing the cost of living improve economic prosperity? how would not increasing the cost of living harm economic prosperity? those are very flippant statements...

Blackrock are free to virtue signal as they please. all their investors care about is returns (which were pretty poor this year for Blackrock). others will invest in the coal space and make the returns accordingly .

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82863155_1278207075722224_3177778922863460352_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQknTTEj5JdAMnYAz-cdmyNJ44rWlfws5LgQzZYIYSYS334SQdx4uxsOvRPmzeZGRD8&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne6-1.fna&oh=6f65921678b97d9b2183c4fa007b5eeb&oe=5E8E8D47
09:26am 15/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3899 posts
I love how fund managers are suddenly bastions of righteousness if they flat out state they are willing to take a financial hit for dumping coal, AND then get held up as an example of how super profitable renewables are.

/this/ is the crux, not your (insulting) view that people just want to do it because they want to "feel good":


Don't forget it's insulting to tell a person their pointless efforts are pointless so they might want to turn the tisk tisking down a little while people are being made homeless.

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it


By the rest of *us* you mean people to whom the change has no adverse impact (yet). And again with the flat inability to offer a true substitution. The example of removing lead being held up as example is simply perfect.

Why can't we get rid of this pesky chemical carbon (which is literally the basis of life of earth), look here is a chemical that isn't required at every stage of the human life cycle we got rid of that.
11:23am 15/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39858 posts
how will increasing the cost of living improve economic prosperity?
I didn't say it would increase the cost of living?

the goal of renewables and carbon reduction is not "increase the cost of living". It is to provide cheaper, cleaner energy.

i have explained multiple times on here that this is achieved by placing a levy on energy costs, in order to subsidise renewables
the levy would not be "in order to subsidise renewables" - the levy is to make sure the true cost of fossil fuels if reflected in the price. At the moment, that is not the case.

It is attempting to finally correctly price something that has, for centuries, had a free ride on the market, with (most of) the costs of it being hidden, buried like a dirty time bomb, and absorbed by citizens.

If you do not agree that this is the case, then fine, but until you acknowledge this point we're just talking across each other because it seems I'm talking about an actual rational market based on real information, and you're saying who cares as long as it's cheap.

which in turns increases the cost of every consumer item
... because the costs of production are more accurately carried down the supply chain!! I remain confident in the benefits of capitalism as competition kicks off.

If it helps I will save you a bunch of time and myself a ton of other micro-strawmen and agree the jury is still out on whether it is possible to entirely replace our power footprint with renewables.

However, it seems pretty obvious that we can replace a huge proportion of it. Australia hit 50% renewable generation for the first time ever a couple months ago. 50%!!

I find this fkn absolutely mind blowing. I look outside my place right now, and see a very small handful of solar panels across rooftops in my area, in the Australian state with the most solar panels, and I think, damn, if even a few more of these had solar panels, when would we hit 60%? 80%? 150%?!
02:14pm 15/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3900 posts
If it helps I will save you a bunch of time and myself a ton of other micro-strawmen and agree the jury is still out on whether it is possible to entirely replace our power footprint with renewables.


The jury is not out. It's not possible.


However, it seems pretty obvious that we can replace a huge proportion of it. Australia hit 50% renewable generation for the first time ever a couple months ago. 50%!!


So a strawman argument is where you leave out important nuances which mischaracterise an argument making it easier to rebut.

For example in this case it is 50% of generation capacity *at midday for a single trading period*. The article is ambiguios about which market it took place on but aemo allow 5 minute contracts so it's possible that statistic applies to 5 minutes at midday.

This is actually a strong argument *against* solar, because the unreliability argument runs because solar gets peak generation when the sun is directly overhead and less at all other times until night when it produces zero it's no good for producing base load power at peak time between 6 - 8. There is some irony in celebrating confirmation of a key assumption of the argument for the negative *while producing a straw man when attacking infi for strawmanning*.
05:16pm 15/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24558 posts
And to accuse me of a straw man...

the levy would not be "in order to subsidise renewables" - the levy is to make sure the true cost of fossil fuels if reflected in the price.


The true cost of carbon is not being priced globally, so such levies on Australians simply handicap Australians against global competition. And pricing 1%.of carbon output in the face of carbon outputs from China growing at an annual rate larger than Australia's output.... It's like pissing into a strong breeze, and charging yourself to piss in the said breeze.

And the levy directly subsidises small scale and large scale renewables... That it's purpose. Every solar system gets certificates from the Federal scheme.

The straw man is that there is an efficacy to an Australian led carbon tax. if the goal is to reduce global emissions then the only answer is that Australia's levy on carbon is knowingly ineffective and a moral stand.... Costing consumers actual dollars.

Another straw man is linking people rendered homeless by bushfire to climate change inaction in Australia... Really lame.

And yeah that 50% of renewables line. What a laugh.... Willingly deceptive statement to influence opinion around renewables. Solar is great at what it does, but be realistic about its limitations.
05:48pm 15/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39859 posts
And yeah that 50% of renewables line. What a laugh.... Willingly deceptive statement to influence opinion around renewables. Solar is great at what it does, but be realistic about its limitations.
How so? This was widely reported; I saw it everywhere when I was in HK; here is the ABC story from my browser history (IIRC it was not 50% solar - half of it was solar)

Can you explain what you find "willingly deceptive" here? (legit question, maybe I am missing something)
06:15pm 15/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3901 posts
Clean energy sources met most of the demand on Australia's biggest grid for 10 minutes on Wednesday


Yeah so I was exactly right. From his article the really really really f*****g important bit in bold for the intellectually impaired. 50% at midday in summer in Australia for 10 minutes. And we have the most favourable conditions on the planet apparently.

It's not possible to have a serious conversation with people who think this is an achievement.

IIRC it was not 50% solar - half of it was solar


Also think about if this makes the situation better or worse for like ten seconds
06:23pm 15/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24559 posts
A fleeting 10 Min peak result (per the article) does not represent a 50% solar supply for the nation. It is an abnormal (extraordinary) result due to perfect operating conditions.

Articles like this perpetuate a narrative that solar will represent 50% of Australia's energy supply thus evidence of the proposition that more coal power plants should be allowed to run down and/or be decommissioned.
08:32pm 15/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26890 posts
infi how come after all these years and committing a strawman in literally every second post you still don't know what a strawman argument is?
09:45pm 15/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3902 posts
infi how come after all these years and committing a strawman in literally every second post you still don't know what a strawman argument is?


You know when you say a friend's "keyboard odyssey" is "interesting".
10:51pm 15/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39860 posts
A fleeting 10 Min peak result (per the article) does not represent a 50% solar supply for the nation. It is an abnormal (extraordinary) result due to perfect operating conditions.

Articles like this perpetuate a narrative that solar will represent 50% of Australia's energy supply thus evidence of the proposition that more coal power plants should be allowed to run down and/or be decommissioned.
odd perspective

first of all, I'm glad we agree that we hit 50% renewables, that is a good starting point

secondly, we agree that it was only for a brief moment

I assume we agree that this is the first time that this has happened, which I choose to extrapolate to at the very least noting that it is an achievement for renewables, and an outcome that is based on the growing deployment of renewables

at least mathematically we surely agree that now in theory it is clear that we have the renewable capacity, when the conditions are right, to have half of our power coming from renewables

I'm gonna go off the rails here a bit now though into possible non-agreement territory: do we agree that, given that the amount of renewable generation is only increasing, that we are not only likely to see another 50% day soon, but that number will only increase?

further, do we then agree that we are likely to see more days in which we hit 50%, and for longer periods of time (and that those numbers will only increase)?

this seems, to me, the most likely extrapolation from the set of facts that we have in front of us here. in fact I can't see any alternative, or any way of stopping it, short of building more non-renewables to change the numbers
09:14am 16/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3903 posts
secondly, we agree that it was only for a brief moment
do we agree that, given that the amount of renewable generation is only increasing, that we are not only likely to see another 50% day soon, but that number will only increase?


Watch how an admitted brief moment becomes a *day* within the space two paragraphs.

It produced 50% of supply during a lower demand period (the middle of the day) for 10 minutes and all of a sudden it's a 50% day.

If another day like that happens we will apparently be celebrating the massive achievement of hitting 50% for 20 minutes at midday in 3 months, only 4300 minutes left to go!
12:45pm 16/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26891 posts
So I won't go into detail about it because I'm sure the small readership of this thread are aware of them, but there's been some rather compelling new evidence regarding Lev Parnas and Robert Hyde released. The only real outcome is that now there will be an even larger and more incriminating pile of stuff the GOP will be forced to ignore in the upcoming Senate trial but it sure is funny to see dumb people facing consequences for doing dumb things. The supernova class meltdown from Robert Hyde on twitter is glorious.

The most interesting aspect is that russian troll farm twitter has yet to produce a cohesive pile of bulls*** for the chuds yet so we're pretty much still just seeing key players denying they've ever met Parvas/Hyde next to photographs of them together and the standard deep state conspiracy, fake news conspiracy and it was the democrats all along conspiracy holding pattern. Be interesting to see what they come up with and how quickly we'll see the chuds start posting it once they do.

Brief overview if you haven't heard anything about it

Stuff about Robert Hyde text messages

After texting about the ambassador, Hyde gave Parnas detailed updates that suggested he was watching her (Marie Yovanovitch). In one text, Hyde wrote: “She’s talked to three people. Her phone is off. Her computer is off.” He said she was under heavy security and “we have a person inside.”

Hyde at one point texted Parnas that ''they are willing to help if we/you would like a price,” and “guess you can do anything in Ukraine with money ... is what I was told.”


Cool and normal.
06:22pm 16/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3904 posts
In which fpot convinces himself they were plotting to kill an ambassador.

My god what a dopey bastard he is.
07:07pm 16/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24560 posts
This is a paywalled article quoting Saul Griffith a climate-policy guy, so I have included snippets. It's an interesting read. I'm not critical of the guy, he has thought out the way to carbon neutral power grid, but the numbers are breathtaking.

Griffith puts the total cost at about $5 trillion to decarbonise Australia over two decades and likens it to the level of spending undertaken during World War II.

“If it was done at the rate of spending during World War II [proportional to GDP] it could get done in under 10 years. That's the war effort required to meet a 1.5-degree target.”

At the same time, Griffith and others, including Industry Super Australia, say the task of getting to net zero is harder without nuclear being in the mix, making for an uncomfortable debate for the Greens and left of the Labor Party.

Even still, the overall cost requires a deep breath and an affinity with large numbers, even before considering the idea of putting more leverage into Australia's already indebted household sector. With 8.6 million households, the cost over a decade would be $860 billion or $86 billion a year. That’s about 4.5 per cent of GDP.

“You have to remember that these measures would also save households $1000 to $2000 each year,” he says.
01:00pm 18/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3905 posts
When he says decarbonise Australia's economy what agricultural and construction measures does he discuss or is it just electricity generation he's talking about?

Important to note it can be spent and still not impact climate change.
05:46pm 18/01/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1258 posts
Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good.


Pretty much sums it up for me. When s***hole nations are forced into doing more I'll be more interested.
04:06pm 19/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39861 posts
It's an interesting read. I'm not critical of the guy, he has thought out the way to carbon neutral power grid, but the numbers are breathtaking.
I think pretty much everyone acknowledges the costs are going to be stunning. It's just that the costs of not doing it are even more stunning.

It's like the difference between instituting preventative medicine and just trying to deal with the sick people later. Sure, it costs a lot to immunise a nation effectively. But not doing it just means you end up with a stack of bills and people taking up hospital beds later.

(I always find the "it's going to take a WW2 level of spending and effort" analogy interesting, because the one nation that invested the most in WW2 ended up becoming the dominant superpower, significantly in part because of their wartime investment in industry. Who knows what will happen to the first nation to seriously embark on this war!?!)
08:49am 20/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3906 posts
great article on why the left keeps losing
Communist regimes pointed to saboteurs and foreign spies to account for the systemic failings of central planning. More recently, liberals have invoked Russian meddling and a global far-right network masterminded by Steve Bannon to explain their political defeats. Delusions of conspiracy are part of the mass psychology of progressivism, and will intensify in the coming months and years.


Take a quick scan of fpots posts to see the truth of it. The desperate fever dreams where the impeachment ends in something other than Trump's re-election.

The point about the UK Supreme Court is a damn good one. The judges don't appear to have realised that stating parliament is top dog means what parliament giveth parliament may taketh away (including the existence of the UK Supreme Court).

I always find the "it's going to take a WW2 level of spending and effort" analogy interesting, because the one nation that invested the most in WW2 ended up becoming the dominant superpower


Yep we are just a 1 trillion dollar spend on solar panels away from global domination. A totally serious point made totally seriously.
09:56pm 21/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24561 posts
2 hours of simply brilliant Steve Bannon

The more I listen to climate alarmists obsessed with Australia's emissions the more I realise they are not being serious about global climate change solution - because if they were the effort and pressure would be on China. But that's too difficult. A domestic protest agenda achieves two purposes: eco-moral self-righteousness, and anti-Coalition campaign point.

With China growing its emissions equivalent to Australia's entire coal emissions EVERY YEAR, emissions reduction in Australian will not even shift the global dial. We would need to eradicate Australia's emissions entirely.

Protestors have convinced themselves that Australia's emissions have a global impact and there is an imperative for Australia to go first. This is done by subsidising large-scale renewable producers and by paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops. School kids have been brainwashed that somehow Australian emissions reduction would stop effects of climate change being experienced in Australia. Linking Australia's emissions to the bushfires is a disgraceful lie.

I would be convinced about the bona fides of climate protestors if they were protesting China's refusal to cut emissions and rely on their phony status as a "developing country". Until then, it's just more Carbon Dioxide.
10:38pm 21/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26893 posts
Do you ever get bored of being forced to ignore so many things or does the dopamine rush of writing whatever dumb s*** you want regardless of the facts overcome the boredom?
11:27pm 21/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41418 posts
yer, you aint getting it infi. no one is disagreeing that australia reducing its emissions on its own will do little in the global scheme of things. WE ALL GET THAT, NO ONE IS DISAGREEING.

The thing is though, we want to be good global citizens, all of us should be doing everything we can to do the right thing. Australia is extremely well placed with our climate and environment to lead the way, so if anyone can do it and reduce the costs of reducing emissions its us.

We need to show other countries what can be done and spark change that way.

Will it cost more? Probably, hopefully that would be short term.

Doing nothing to save money because no one else is trying is pointless if we all kill the planet.

05:54am 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3907 posts
Do you ever get bored of being forced to ignore so many things or does the dopamine rush of writing whatever dumb s*** you want regardless of the facts overcome the boredom?


Says the guy who thinks the US president is a Russian plant.

yer, you aint getting it infi. no one is disagreeing that australia reducing its emissions on its own will do little in the global scheme of things. WE ALL GET THAT, NO ONE IS DISAGREEING.
Australia is extremely well placed with our climate and environment to lead the way, so if anyone can do it and reduce the costs of reducing emissions its us.

We need to show other countries what can be done and spark change that way.


I think it's you who is not getting it.

It's straight vanity to think China and India will look at what we do and copy it. But more importantly if we are uniquely placed to take advantage of wind and solar (and I have serious doubts about that) what reason is there to think even if we do transition China et al will be able to replicate it.

Hence the argument really boils down to this

The thing is though, we want to be good global citizens, all of us should be doing everything we can to do the right thing

I put it to you that is just your idea of a good global citizen. It's not a majority of Australians idea and almost certainly a vanishingly small minority of the rest of the world.

It's also a particularly bad way to try to argue your point because there is nothing in Australia stopping you personally from having a zero carbon footprint and I'll bet 100 dollars right now you don't.
06:50am 22/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41419 posts
the majority of australia dont think that climate change is real and we should be trying to be better?

you are correct, me and family arent zero, but we do what we can.

i ride my bike everywhere, i sodastream to feed my fierce fizzy water addiction, i only had 2 kids rather than the 10 i dreamed of.
08:57am 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3908 posts
Yeah but you can be and you aren't. As "good global citizens" we need to all be at zero.

And to make this crystal clear.
the majority of australia dont think that climate change is real and we should be trying to be better?

The majority of Australians being supportive of empty platitudes is not the same as the majority of Australians being ok with upending the economy with no regard to cost, consequences or its global impact if everyone else decides to just point and laugh.

I offer as proof of this distinction bill shorten losing the unloseable election trying to push through an uncosted emissions reduction target.

It was pushed as the "climate change" election and the country said we'll take a punt on this Hillsong weirdo thanks.

But I thank you for your incredible restraint in having only two children. The struggle is real.
09:16am 22/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24562 posts
fpor posted a ramble. if there is any fact in there you wish to check please do.

spook, you are cool with increasing the cost of living for australians and making our economy less competitive, simply to set a good example, knowing full well that it will not alter the course of climate change one iota, while China goes on burning coal for cheap manufacturing of the natural resources we sell them so we can buy them back and make Chinese Communist Party more wealthy. that is masochism defined - enjoyment of payment intentionally inflicted.
09:26am 22/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39862 posts
I already addressed most of those points at least once in previous post

the best use of the Australian citizen's time if they want to effect global change is to put pressure on our government to make new policy

your use of the term "climate alarmists", combined with your unwillingness to concede (or even acknowledge) the point about negative externalities of fossil fuels, indicates to me that you flat out do not believe the science and thus are not arguing honestly or in good faith. There seems to be little point in having a discussion about shifting off fossil fuels with someone that simply does not believe there is any need to do so and does not believe we are facing an existential threat.

this is the reality that the rest of us are operating in.

you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?

(ftr, I wouldn't even watch a 2 hour video, or a 10 minute video for that matter, of someone who agreed with literally everything I said)
09:59am 22/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24563 posts
I am happy to concede the negative externality of fossil fuels for the sake of the argument. I am more concerned about the obsession with placing handicaps on the Australian economy which will achieve nothing. The policy response subsidisong the renewable industry and increasing the cost of power is my main concern.

And the self-righteous protest hysteria.
10:07am 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3909 posts
I already addressed most of those points at least once in previous post


Except you simply didn't. Like at all.

This is what you do
this is the reality that the rest of us are operating in.


While squealing about existential threats.

At no point have any of you linked a specific policy to a specific outcome and said Australia can do this.

For example what climate policy could Australia have adopted unilaterally that would have altered this bush fire season.

When asked we instantly get a deflection about how it's the right thing to do. While insisting that we have to do something because bushfires. As we have in the above post


the best use of the Australian citizen's time if they want to effect global change is to put pressure on our government to make new policy


Quite simply if you think the best use of citizens time is to flap their lips about ineffectual policy you have lost your mind.

Best of all trog will run to the defence of fpot and impune infis motives at the same time. Glorious.
10:48am 22/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26894 posts
I am happy to concede the negative externality of fossil fuels for the sake of the argument.
Oh cool I guess we can start discussing the real world negative impacts...

Linking Australia's emissions to the bushfires is a disgraceful lie.
Oh.

You're a f*****g clown.
11:06am 22/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39863 posts
if there is any fact in there you wish to check please do.
OK - you wrote "paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops"; historically in Australia solar has tended to be deployed in areas where the average income was lower, not higher.

I can't recall details but also I think higher income households also typically opt for much larger installs, which has a disproportionately greater impact (i.e., their grid usage trends closer to zero and they more often become net producers)

also - by "pay high income families" do you mean they are literally giving them money to do this? or do you just mean that high income families get the same subsidies as everyone else but you're trying to write it in as divisive as way as possible so, once again, I have to waste time converting your insulting, inflammatory rhetoric into some sort of ground truth to form the basis of a conversation.

this is why knocking down your repeated strawmen is so painful - your repeated claims that the /only/ possible outcomes are "increasing the cost of living for australians and making our economy less competitive" and that it is /only/ being done to "simply to set a good example", when people have gone (repeatedly, several times, over the space of years) to explain otherwise just waste everyone's time, especially yours

edit: luckily my time is worthless at the moment! hoping that changes soon and I can get back to work
11:37am 22/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24564 posts
also - by "pay high income families" do you mean they are literally giving them money to do this? or do you just mean that high income families get the same subsidies as everyone else but you're trying to write it in as divisive as way as possible so, once again, I have to waste time converting your insulting, inflammatory rhetoric into some sort of ground truth to form the basis of a conversation.


People who don't qualify for taxpayer handouts to lower their own energy bill
- housing commission
- renters
- low income who cannot afford the balance of the install.
12:03pm 22/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39864 posts
("taxpayer handouts")

sorry, I don't understand what you're saying - that list of groups are not "high income families"?
12:39pm 22/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24565 posts
("taxpayer handouts")

sorry, I don't understand what you're saying - that list of groups are not "high income families"?

Correct, and they cannot get the taxpayer handouts. Only high income people access the solar handouts.
12:42pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3910 posts
Fpot quick to confirm the point.

Only high income people access the solar handouts.


Higher income people tend to be better at framing their consumption choices as "in the national interest".
01:27pm 22/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39865 posts
Correct, and they cannot get the taxpayer handouts. Only high income people access the solar handouts.
but there are a series of other "handouts" for people in low income households; they just have to meet different criteria for these "taxpayer handouts" (NSW is the first one I can be bothered finding, QLD was at least looking into it, VIC has one, TAS has/had one, etc).

What is the programme where we are "paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops", out of interest? Sounds like those f*****g Greens at it again
01:45pm 22/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24566 posts
STCs - rebates paid on installation of a solar system.
02:00pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3911 posts
The NSW plan aims to *at most* install 9mwatts of peak generation.
The climate fixed forever people. That plan absolutely will not turn them into net generators.
02:29pm 22/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39867 posts
goddamn that looks like a confusing mess of bureaucratic nightmarish hell, simply to avoid pricing carbon emissions

can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income? I can't see anything like that from a quick look/search. the rebates seem to be "certificates" and just look like they're based on postcode & the size of your installation?
06:27pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3912 posts
can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income?
certificates" and just look like they're based on postcode & the size of your installation?


He's so close to getting the answer.
06:45pm 22/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41420 posts
I am more concerned about the obsession with placing handicaps on the Australian economy which will achieve nothing. The policy response subsidisong the renewable industry and increasing the cost of power is my main concern.

And the self-righteous protest hysteria.


i think as climate change becomes realer, and it finally hits you what this means for your daughters lifetime, you will regret this viewpoint.
07:17pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3913 posts
And the self-righteous protest hysteria.
i think as climate change becomes realer, and it finally hits you what this means for your daughters lifetime, you will regret this viewpoint.


At least you spared your 8 hypothetical children this book of Eli nightmare.
07:48pm 22/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41421 posts
all dreams of my own cricket team, dashed.
08:12pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3914 posts
Unless the other 2 become climate mutants and can play for 5 people each.

It could happen
09:11pm 22/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3915 posts
Energiewende in German a failure.

But McKinsey finds that Germany is expected to fail the majority of its own 2020 energy transition targets. The transition process has made itself more reliant on gas from Putin’s Russia. In the medium term, its withdrawal from nuclear and coal power also threaten to compromise energy provision “if these sources aren’t replaced in time”.


The push to move to renewables has basically resulted in modernization of Russia's military.

The renewables crowd just don't seem to be able to wrap their noggins around this concept that you can't lower of first world nation with roof top solar. Or renewables full stop.

It would be interesting to hear trog try to explain why AGL are pushing renewables so hard and s***ting on coal.

Maybe they are all praying to Greta. Perhaps a better explanation is Australia largest gas company is betting our experience far from being "unique" will be the same as Germany's. Same with origin. This natural gas portfolios ain't goin' nowhere but we have end our reliance on fossil fuels.
06:31am 24/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2346 posts
They set very high standards so it's a "failure".

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.
10:11am 24/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3916 posts
They set very high standards so it's a "failure".

Sorry you view increasing reliance on fossil fuels imports from a major from geo political rival as very high standards?

Or is it achieving greater than 60% generation from fossil fuels (so about the same as Australia) and reopening brown coal power plants all for a spend of about 1 trillion over 20 years on renewables?

It's probably best the article didn't deal with the carbon intensity outcome (hint it hasn't changed).

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.


No they aren't.

When you're ready to have a serious discussion let us all know.
10:29am 24/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24567 posts
can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income?


The rebate is not directly based on income. Because a solar system costs many thousands of $ people in Housing Commission, rentals and with low incomes cannot afford or arrange that investment. So higher income people who own their own home enjoy that rebate drawn from the tax paid by lower income people.

Imagine if you told lefties that is how their environmental policy works in practice? Redistribution of tax to the rich.

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.


then why are they subsidised as far as the eye can see?
10:52am 24/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39868 posts
Because a solar system costs many thousands of $ people in Housing Commission, rentals and with low incomes cannot afford or arrange that investment.
Well I think you should leave rentals out of that list; I live in a rental and I also cannot arrange that investment, regardless of how much "tax paid by lower income people" is available to me, despite being a higher income citizen, simply because of the nature of my building (I imagine this is the barrier to most renters and apartment dwellers).
So higher income people who own their own home enjoy that rebate drawn from the tax paid by lower income people.
well arguably the higher income people pay more income tax so they're paying for a higher proportion of the rebate..? isn't this just like saying rich people also get to drive on roads paid for by lower income people?!
Imagine if you told lefties that is how their environmental policy works in practice? Redistribution of tax to the rich.
yeh weird what a weird f*****g system how weird is it that our system is designed to funnel money to the rich with the *checks notes* lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f*****g minds, apparently

edit: I don't think that is really what is happening here but just thought that was funny
11:59am 24/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3917 posts
yeh weird what a weird f*****g system how weird is it that our system is designed to funnel money to the rich with the *checks notes* lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f*****g minds, apparently


It would be the ghost of a point if it wasn't wholly supported by lefties. It's obviously straight middle class welfare for people who've decided buying a luxury telsa car for themselves is in the national interest.

Not really possible to have a serious conversation about renewables.

They're cheaper and more reliable that also require subsidies to be affordable and gas back up for when they aren't reliable, but they are also the unquestionable right thing to do even if they aren't cheaper and more reliable and as Germany seems to prove actually have a margin impact on emissions.

What's hysterical is I'm yet to see anyone say they are opposed in principle to a transition away from coal generation. Just saying renewables aren't an effective substitute by themselves gets you this.

your use of the term "climate alarmists", combined with your unwillingness to concede (or even acknowledge) the point about negative externalities of fossil fuels, indicates to me that you flat out do not believe the science and thus are not arguing honestly or in good faith. There seems to be little point in having a discussion about shifting off fossil fuels with someone that simply does not believe there is any need to do so and does not believe we are facing an existential threat.


But apparently
lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f*****g minds


The reality is that if you think climate change is an *existential threat* you straight up are an alarmist.
01:06pm 24/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2347 posts
No one will build a new coal power plant in australia because it is not economically feasible to do so.* It just doesn't stack up against new solar.


The only possible way a new coal plant will be deployed is if the government backs it for their weird culture wars.
04:09pm 24/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24568 posts
Now do that without renewable subsidies.
05:30pm 24/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26898 posts
So now that you've capitulated on that one, are you still on the trump was just investigating corruption and the impeachment hoax is a deep state conspiracy coup assisted by the fake news conspiracy?
05:50pm 24/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24569 posts
lol capitulated. you are in a daze.

there is no need to discuss the russia collusion hoax any more. it never even got to impeachment, what was even the point? impeachment on the Ukraine nothing-burger is purely political and will run along party lines. Trump will be acquitted, get re-elected and the self-owange will be complete.
06:01pm 24/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26899 posts
Just watch those straight from the troll farm catch phrases pour out of your mouth. Such a well trained little doggy.
06:15pm 24/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3918 posts
No one will build a new coal power plant in australia because it is not economically feasible to do so.* It just doesn't stack up against new solar.


Oh what utter twaddle. If that was even remotely true there would be no need for a carbon price. I wouldn't be even a little surprised loy yang or Tarong expanded in the next 10-30 years.

The only possible way a new coal plant will be deployed is if the government backs it for their weird culture wars.


This the essence of why you lost may 18 and why you will continue to. The only possible avenue for disagreement is culture wars. Deep down though high level Labor peeps get it. Look at how quickly Qld Labor backed down on Adani after the federal election. It was within hours.

Just watch those straight from the troll farm catch phrases pour out of your mouth. Such a well trained little doggy.


Are the Russians in the room with you right now fpot?

Hows that Kurdish genocide coming along?

Imagine how soaked in conspiracy juice you'd have to be to listen to Adam Schiff and agree.
06:56pm 24/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2348 posts
08:42am 25/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39869 posts
then why are they subsidised as far as the eye can see?
haven't we already agreed coal is subsidised (massively) because the pricing of the externalities is not taken into consideration? also, coal is also subsided with actual subsidies

not to mention all the various other lengths our government goes to in order to support it as an industry, including but not limited to literally putting pieces of it in their pocket and taking it out in parliament, grinning with glee, like a child with a new toy

trying to pretend that the only reason renewables have traction is subsidies is a losing battle, imo. fossil fuels have over a century of dominance and the resulting entrenchment in our commercial and political systems that brings along with it any number of perks, the entire way up and down the supply chain - actual taxpayer cash up front, financial structures that allow them to minimise tax, quasi-state-owned infrastructure, unrealistic markets, etc, etc.

to answer your question though, the reason they are subsidised is really the same reason the government should subsidise anything - trying to effect an important societal or market change when the market isn't doing itself, because it can't or won't

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again

a more interesting topic to me: I am torn on whether or not we should just strip the subsidies from everything and let the market sort it out. I think our energy market is too f***ed, being such a weird privatised/public company/state run/federally managed/subsidies Frankenmonster (not unlike our telco market). half-assed privatisation seems to be the worst of both worlds, and I think there is a realistic concern with full-ass privatisation that it could f*** up the grid as people dive into solar too much too soon, before we have the smart grid stuff and enough local storage in place.
09:41am 25/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3919 posts
So the thing is you guys showing fossil fuels get subsidiaries is not a response to the question are renewables viable without them?

This pretty much flat admits Infis criticism
to answer your question though, the reason they are subsidised is really the same reason the government should subsidise anything - trying to effect an important societal or market change when the market isn't doing itself, because it can't or won't

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again


Oh and look we are straight back to its the right thing to do. My vitute signalling consumption choices require subsidies don't ever ask again. What a serious and balanced argument.

To demonstrate the point, medicine is subsidized out the ass. But it would be a viable industry without them. This is the argument being put forward. So you managed to deal in a combination red herring and strawman. Well done both.

The part I love the most about though is that it obviously hasn't occurred to you idiots that renewables get subsidized through fossil fuel subsidies, because they rely on natural gas firming capacity.

As for the f*****g ridiculous argument carbon emissions are a subsidized externality, it would be easier to take seriously if I ever saw you idiots talk about renewables' untaxed externalities.

For example, rare earth metals are both dangerous when they leach into soil and tend to be found in countries where modern slavery is a massive issue. I've also never once heard you talk of the environmental consequences of land clearing for you idiotic Singapore solar export plan or what happens at the end of a solar panels 20 year life span. At the moment the way you deal with is to send them to a third world country to poison children.

But some how you manage to gloss over all of that when you drop "externalities" as an argument.
12:52pm 25/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24570 posts
coal is also subsided with actual subsidies


nope. they enjoy diesel fuel rebate due to their offroad business nature just like agriculture and (dare I say the) vehicles used in large scale solar farms.

it's great documenting the zeal of renewables crowd.
01:15pm 25/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3920 posts
Yeah it's entertaining

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again


Don't forget if you believe in climate change we have to subsidize renewables because subsidizing renewables in Australia will reduce emissions in India and China because reasons.

Don't ever ask again. Only people who like drowning puppies question subsidized virtue signalling.
02:10pm 25/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39870 posts
"no, they're not subsidies, except for this one subsidy", he said, wallpapering over cognitive dissonance with a steamroller

they probably have never had any other subsidies ever either in the last hundred years either

the /only/ reason a billion dollars of "tax paid by lower income people" isn't flooding to Adani seems to be a fluke of having Labor is in power in Qld (or possibly they just used it as a smokescreen excuse when they decided it's not financially viable anyway)

anyway. the subsidy they get is the fact that the government discounts the price massively by not requiring that companies dispose of waste products correctly. you can try to weasel-words your way around this all you want but this industry has be propped up the fact that everyone thought you could pump s*** into their air forever

edit: you are almost certainly never going to talk to a green hippy person like me that actually thinks we should both still be burning coal and digging it out of the ground and selling it for at least a while longer yet; why do you not even /try/ to have a conversation? like why not read the other stuff I wrote and reply to it? I don't get what you're doing here
02:49pm 27/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24571 posts
you call a diesel fuel rebate generally available to all offroad industries, including solar farms, a coal subsidy ? and then call me asinine....

I don't agree with any subsidy for Adani.

why do you not even /try/ to have a conversation? like why not read the other stuff I wrote and reply to it? I don't get what you're doing here


i enjoy highlighting the ongoing hypocrisy of the tokenistic green movement.
people who think they are reducing their carbon emissions by driving an electric car.
people who think more solar panels can possibly substitute for reliable coal baseload generation.
people who think australia increasing its taxes and electricity prices will reduce the effect of climate change on the earth.

it is the classic leftist handwringing - something needs to be done NOW - otherwise BUSHFIRES, KOALAS, HOMELESS PEOPLE. Never mind whether it's effective.

If we hypothetically manage to cut our emissions by 20% that means Australia moves from 1% of global carbon emissions to 0.8% and China grows theirs by more than that every year. Honestly, the climate activist movement in Australia is a joke. Where is the calling out of China's emissions expansion?

Real climate change action is a global agreement to price carbon and reduce emissions lead by USA, China, the EU and Japan. Australia just falls in line. Without that Extinction Rebellion and the Greens are just pissing in the breeze.


edit: to further explore the off-road diesel fuel rebate since you fallaciously equate it to coal subsidy.

Should the diesel fuel rebate be scrapped altogether?
Should miners not mining coal get it? Iron - it requires coal to smelt? Gas - carbon emissions? Gold smelted with coal?
Should agricultural producers get it? Meat producers' livestock emit carbon emissions.
Should solar farm operators get it? Are they the chosen favourite?
03:11pm 27/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2349 posts
You do realise cutting emissions improves public health right? That's more people in your aged care facilities for longer.
06:25pm 27/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3921 posts
Oh but infi

Pointing this out
Real climate change action is a global agreement to price carbon and reduce emissions lead by USA, China, the EU and Japan. Australia just falls in line. Without that Extinction Rebellion and the Greens are just pissing in the breeze.


Is asinine. And by asinine what he actually means is he doesn't have an answer and he knows it.

Don't forget trog is the supposedly the reasonable mature one.

But when you point out he does not have an answer to a) renewables are not capable of producing cheap reliable baseload power and b) climate action that doesn't include China and India in the same boat as the US is futile you get the same name calling as any standard lefty.

We are about a 100 posts into this conversation which I might remind everyone was about what climate policy would have impacted the bushfires and we are both not closer to a sensible answer to that question and the "climate denier" naming calling phase.

Now we know trog has recently gotten back from London and I'm sure attending vintage breakfast cereal bars in Shoreditch made him feel a bit less racist than the average Australian, but dude your travels don't make you better or smarter they just make you a member of the same boring I went to London for a year crowd.

The steel question is hysterical. Steel is iron plus carbon. Good luck removing carbon from that process.

anyway. the subsidy they get is the fact that the government discounts the price massively by not requiring that companies dispose of waste products correctly.


Old solar panels and wind turbines don't just disappear into the ground if you say Greta thunberg three times.
06:54am 28/01/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
817 posts
The solution is clearly to use human corpses as a food source to reduce agricultural greenhouse emissions and also why not use them as a biofuel as well? Overpopulation and carbon footprint and too many white people anyway right.
12:16pm 28/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39871 posts
i enjoy highlighting the ongoing hypocrisy of the tokenistic green movement.
yes, point scoring is a lot of fun, I agree there is a lot of cherry picking that can be done amongst "greens" who think we should turn off the coal stations now and doing so will not negatively impact their lives. I am sure we agree that they would be clamouring for the lights to be turned back on if coal plants vanished tomorrow.

but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency

there's seems little point in gleefully pointing and laughing when the other team scores an own goal when you're three goals down and half your team has been sent off for playing cards on the pitch, while the stadium burns around everyone

people who think they are reducing their carbon emissions by driving an electric car.
this is a weird thing to say because it's so obviously provably false in many circumstances (e.g., people who charge off rooftop solar).

even if it was 100% false, it would /still/ be better than the status quo - maybe not for carbon reasons (but it depends on the generation mix in your area, etc) but simply because the emissions are moved out the locations where people live and work and breathe and elsewhere

you want renewables to look terrible? encourage everyone to move to electric cars immediately
people who think more solar panels can possibly substitute for reliable coal baseload generation.
noone seriously thinks this. it is not and has never been about solar as a panacea. it is a layer in the solution, nothing more
it is the classic leftist handwringing - something needs to be done NOW
to be fair they don't want to do it now, they want to do it 20 years ago
otherwise BUSHFIRES, KOALAS, HOMELESS PEOPLE. Never mind whether it's effective.
renewables are just a layer in a more environmentally friendly strategy; plenty of other things we can do to mitigate those three specific things that you mentioned which, incidentally, were all predictions that have all come true

also (sighs heavily) people don't want to do ineffective things
Where is the calling out of China's emissions expansion?
ummm, in many of my posts above? the marketing and lobbying from every non-Chinese manufacturing group in first world countries? every environmental group? in literally every anti-capitalist raving posted in the last decade? China's emissions are terrible. they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******* keep selling them cheap coal

China's emissions are partly enabled by Australia's (ludicrously cheap) coal exports. we have a role to play here. (s*** we could just invent a new tariff called the Trump Green China Tariff and wait for America to follow suit from sheer ego)
Should the diesel fuel rebate be scrapped altogether?
heh do I think a system that lets people get even cheaper fossil fuels should be scrapped altogether?

yes

if you want to have a market that operates like a market, you can't put subsidies in there without hiding the true cost of things

every single subsidy, tax incentive, etc, just adds complexity to an already extremely complex system; the only winners are accountants and people that can pay accountants lots of money. I am a big believer in transparency through simplicity in everything

the best reason to use subsidies is when the cost of something doesn't matter, because it /must/ be done, to do the things that help keep civilisation functioning

if operating like a market is not critical, or even desired, then that's fine - but we need to stop pretending it's a market and call it what it really is: socialism making everything work (as usual)!
07:07pm 28/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3922 posts
but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency


See now you get to the Freud segment of the argument.

For example.

Trog says renewables have had only minor reliability issues in the recent past. Some how while definately not ignoring the problems with his argument, managed to overlook renewables causing a statewide blackout. Nobody is bringing up the California blackouts this year either.

Or describing a 5 minute trading block at midday as a 50% renewable generation day. That's taking you're own weak argument real serious that is.

Then says
you want renewables to look terrible? encourage everyone to move to electric cars immediately

Unless of course you want to drive 600 kms without charging the car for three hours.

ummm, in many of my posts above?


Show us literally one time you did that with out being prompted exactly like here.

You manage not to address how they are allowed to continue to increase their emissions until 2030 under the Paris agreement and then you manage to back it up with this flat lie

they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******* keep selling them cheap coal


They're building s*** tonnes more coal generation. Like Europe's entire coal generation capacity. China are less serious about emissions than trog is, but not alot.

But it would be just *awful* if infi ignored the holes in his argument.
09:40pm 28/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24572 posts
trog, i respect your appreciation of the limitations to the environmental activist case. environmental protestors are making incoherent arguments the are dictated by emotion instead of practicality.

point scoring is a lot of fun, I agree there is a lot of cherry picking that can be done amongst "greens" who think we should turn off the coal stations now and doing so will not negatively impact their lives.


it is very important to keep reinforcing this point because the minute these magic pills get accepted by a majority of australians we could find labor adopting it and BAM. so I don't consider it point scoring, i consider it highlighting a fundamental flaw to a dangerous public policy.

while the stadium burns around everyone


the stadium stops burning when there is a comprehensive global agreement. australia's subsidy of renewables, or introduction of a carbon tax, are immaterial.

but simply because the emissions are moved out the locations where people live and work and breathe and elsewhere


is it ok to outsource emissions to china and india too?

you want renewables to look terrible?


i don't. I use solar to reduce my peak demand energy bills and it is very effective. as you have stated elsewhere the limitations are obvious to you at least.

ummm, in many of my posts above? the marketing and lobbying from every non-Chinese manufacturing group in first world countries? every environmental group? in literally every anti-capitalist raving posted in the last decade? China's emissions are terrible. they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******* keep selling them cheap coal


so where has china been blamed for the australian bushfires? nope blame Morrison instead who's been in the job 5 mins. LOL

heh do I think a system that lets people get even cheaper fossil fuels should be scrapped altogether?

yes


be prepared for much more expensive food and drink. i don't really care about the diesel rebate but it is illuminating to see various perspectives on it.

Unless of course you want to drive 600 kms without charging the car for three hours.


PP you just described my idea of Hell.

they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******* keep selling them cheap coal


China is building the entire coal-powered electricity generating capacity of Australia EVERY YEAR. so serious about emissions they are.

SO.... this is then the critical public policy questions for you Trog:

1. Should Australia have a carbon tax before major emitters? If yes, do you believe this will impede the Australian economy?

2. Do you believe coal-power production should be shut down in Australia immediately?

3. Do you support nuclear power?
10:04pm 28/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41422 posts
^^ there is no hope for us ^^
05:26am 29/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3923 posts
Why is there no hope?

There are lots of things that can be done about climate change, and if you get China and India on board most people probably won't be resistant.

But until action that will not be futile can be taken nobody is going to Destroy their lifestyle and it is wrong to expect them too.

I might add the sooner the obsession with wind and solar ends the sooner we will move towards an enduring solution.

When trog starts linking to articles that honestly appraise what renewables can't do (for example power an industrial first word economy) I'll start to take him seriously.

If renewables are obviously cheaper and more reliable as I've heard dozens of times in this thread why is not a single country on earth that is at 100% renewable generation? The answer lies in the externalities that every renewables spiv loves to prattle on about.

Finally
but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency
the /only/ reason a billion dollars of "tax paid by lower income people" isn't flooding to Adani seems to be a fluke of having Labor is in power in Qld (or possibly they just used it as a smokescreen excuse when they decided it's not financially viable anyway)/
China's emissions are partly enabled by Australia's (ludicrously cheap) coal exports. we have a role to play here. (s*** we could just invent a new tariff called the Trump Green China Tariff and wait for America to follow suit from sheer ego)


So which is it? Is coal financially unviable or ludicrously cheap?

Stop accusing others of what you're doing and you might get a bit of headway.
07:07am 29/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39872 posts
it is very important to keep reinforcing this point because the minute these magic pills get accepted by a majority of australians we could find labor adopting it and BAM. so I don't consider it point scoring, i consider it highlighting a fundamental flaw to a dangerous public policy.
conversely, I do not see it as a big risk at all. in the staggeringly unlikely event that the (tiny, fringe, so small it's really not worth talking about) group of people that want to turn off fossil fuel power plants today get their way (note: even the Greens party does not want to do this), what is the most likely outcome?

we suffer brownouts for a week or two before everyone realises it's s*** and then we simply turn them back on. unless literal eco-warriors bulldoze the plants as soon as they're turned off and sow the fields with salt. it's just so staggeringly unlikely that I can't see it happening, ever, but even if it /does/ the outcome seems pretty obvious
the stadium stops burning when there is a comprehensive global agreement. australia's subsidy of renewables, or introduction of a carbon tax, are immaterial.
we will obviously never agree on this but historically it's just not how things have worked. these big global agreements come from one or two people jumping up and down screaming for a while and then everyone else finally gets it. one way or another, we're getting on board with the programme.

this is the difference between leadership and populism, something that the current generation of world leaders (and citizens) seem to simply not understand
so where has china been blamed for the australian bushfires? nope blame Morrison instead who's been in the job 5 mins. LOL
this is one of those things again

noone is blaming Morrison. we're blaming everyone that is in a position of power to effect change, and has been for the last 30 years, for kicking this can down the road. he simply falls into that category. noone is holding him responsible.
be prepared for much more expensive food and drink. i don't really care about the diesel rebate but it is illuminating to see various perspectives on it.
yes, I'm glad we agree on this, although I feel like it's probably more begrudging acceptance instead of genuine enthusiasm

food and drink needs to be more expensive. the cost of certain types of food and drink (and other things that come from primary producers) come from weird f***ed up market situations where the cost is not accurately reflected in the price of their production.

aside: almond growing in California is perhaps not a great example as it's not an Australian problem (although we consume them) but is often held up as the shining example of how badly to do this (even though I think other crops are worse; I have heard alfalfa is a bigger problem but it's not as interesting so noone talks about it) . I am not an expert but my tldr is that growing almonds is super super water intensive (like 1L for /each/ almond) and something like 10% of the water in California goes /just/ to doing this, through various water rights manipulations and massive draining of the ground water. this has been a growing problem in the drought, people are digging deeper & deeper wells, there is just less and less water. everyone wants cheap almost, it's a hugely profitable industry IF there is water, which increasingly there is not.

water use in Australia is already becoming an increasingly huge topic for discussion (well maybe not today after 500mm of rain in some places) thanks to what sound like some odd management decisions by various regulatory authorities
China is building the entire coal-powered electricity generating capacity of Australia EVERY YEAR. so serious about emissions they are.
I find it hard to believe many of the reports coming out of China; one day there are reports that they are building a lot of coal then the next they have mothballed all their plants. in any case, given their "ghost town" approach to construction it matters less how much they're building and how much they actually turn on.

again though, I note that:

a) we cheerfully give China something like 20% their coal, without taking their emissions into consideration, to keep our coal cheap
b) we import a lot of stuff from them, without taking their emissions into consideration through (e.g.) tariffs
c) we shouldn't judge /our/ behaviour by what China does
1. Should Australia have a carbon tax before major emitters?
well we already did, but yes
If yes, do you believe this will impede the Australian economy?
I think it depends entirely on how it is done. pricing it low, today, so it starts being factored in but does not have a huge impact, gradually raising it over time so people can adjust, seems like the obvious solution.

the short answer to your question is "yes", but I think a carbon tax is only one layer in the onion
2. Do you believe coal-power production should be shut down in Australia immediately?
no (thought I made that clear)
3. Do you support nuclear power?
yay a new topic! I don't not support it:

purely practically, we are not going to switch to becoming a nuclear-equipped nation in the next decade. I think if we started building it today, we might have our first plant finished in maybe 15-20 years. I don't know how to estimate what it would cost ($billions obviously) but I have to believe a) the majority of the costs would be borne by the taxpayers and b) it would run massively over budget (given all the current plants being built by nations that have had nuclear for decades seem to be all late and over budget)

without some sort of (ahah) Manhattan Project-esque effort, we cannot meaningfully augment our energy mix with nuclear for at least that long (barring some of the sci fi fission tech often thrown around by nuclear pundits, like mass-produced SMRs, which simply do not exist yet)

I don't know much about the design and operational issues but I note that many plants in Europe have been shut down in recent summers because it has been too hot for them to operate and I wonder how they would go in Australia where it is hot and getting hotter

there is of course the "reputational" issues of nuclear in Australia. if we decided to do it today, I reckon it would take 5 years for us to decide on where it would go. the first nuclear power plant in Australia needs to be built in Canberra, next to Parliament House, for Australians to even have a chance of trusting it

all that said, I think we should at the very least be planning for a nuclear future - both because it's good to have a diversified mix but really, mostly, simply as a hedge bet. I can see a future in which every first world nation is embarking on Manhattan Project-like programmes to build nuclear as fast as we can, to do literally nothing but pull carbon from the air & desalinate water, because everything is f***ed.

BUT the important thing, the absolutely critical thing, is that while we're futzing around trying to get out first nuclear pannerplant online for the best part of the next two decades, we can be deploying renewables. say, every billion dollars we spend investing in nuclear, we spend the same on solar, wind, & smart grid.

every dollar we spent on renewables is stuff that would have an impact, immediately, now, today. Australia is uniquely positioned to take advantage of this fact (big, empty, sunny, windy)

the slight risk is that by the time we have a nuclear plant operational, we might not need it. that is an awesome situation to be in, imho. we can just turn it on and suck carbon from the air and make it into diamonds, or desalinate water and take over the almond market, or something

for some reason there are many in the media and in politics talking about nuclear vs renewables as a false dichotomy. we can do both!
09:31am 29/01/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41423 posts
id save your keystrokes troggy.

these boys care not for the planet if it costs them an extra cent in taxes, and paying even a cent more in tax is literally a fate worse than (slow) death.

china and india are jumping off the cliff, we should jump with them because they are big and we are small and being big makes them right.



last edited by Spook at 10:52:52 29/Jan/20
10:51am 29/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3924 posts
china and india are jumping off the cliff, we should jump with them because they are big and we are small and being big makes them right.

A more accurate description is if they jump off a cliff there is nothing at all that we can do to stop them taking us with them. So why bother spending that money when it can be used on other more productive issues.

But if I had to encapsulate what I see your and trogs argument style to be, it would be this.

yes, I'm glad we agree on this, although I feel like it's probably more begrudging acceptance instead of genuine enthusiasm

food and drink needs to be more expensive. the cost of certain types of food and drink


Self described high income earner says f*****g *food* should be more expensive. And the extra expense must be enthusiastically embraced (while taking of ending a subsidy to infi of all people). Tell that to a family of four with a combined income under $100k. Just make sure there are no guillotines within mob distance before you do.

I should totally take seriously a person who is having a literal Maire Antoinette moment.

And finally we get to the fact free nuclear screed.

You people are pathologically incapable of seeing two steps beyond your choices.
12:13pm 29/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2350 posts

lol mr man of the people. Nevermind the gov who thinks low wage growth is a feature.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/dec/31/low-wage-growth-to-cost-average-worker-2100-over-four-years-labor-warns

We know who the guillotines are coming for.


04:44pm 29/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24573 posts
Here's the basic fact the Opposition dunces cannot comprehend.

“Real wages growth, which is wages growth above inflation, is stronger than it was when Labor lost government,” Cormann said in December.


CPI is very low too. DERP
04:57pm 29/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3925 posts
lol mr man of the people. Nevermind the gov who thinks low wage growth is a feature.


Lol tfw when you think pointing out low wage growth is a rebuttal to actively driving up the cost of food to achieve no impact on climate change.
We know who the guillotines are coming for.

Yeah. we do.
05:04pm 29/01/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
818 posts
If renewables are so great and so cheap, then why doesn't China switch to them today? I mean, they manufacture all the batteries and all the solar cells already so surely it would be at minimum cost for them to embrace this technology instead of shipping coal at great expense from overseas?

It's almost comical how bad the environmentalists understand the problem.

How was wage growth between 2007 and 2013 under Labor? Oh, that's right. Stagnant. Do people have memories longer than goldfish these days?
08:07am 30/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26901 posts
Was there any sort of significant financial event that happened between 2007-2013 that may have had an impact on wage growth?
02:51pm 30/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3926 posts
Oh you mean global conditions have big effects on wage growth that the Commonwealth has no real control over?

Very solid gold coast bouncer point.

Stick to saying chud and piece of s***.
09:15pm 30/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24574 posts
Australian economy has expanded every year for 29 years, so NO. (Thanks China.)
10:02pm 30/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39873 posts
Australian economy has expanded every year for 29 years, so NO. (Thanks China.)
they are talking about the rate of growth, not whether or not it grew (edit: right?)

two follow up questions:

1) do you think this record period of stunningly low interest rates/pseudo MMT we are living in might impact this (trivial) economic statistical achievement that Cormann desperately trotted out in response to the (hard) data showing record low growth?

2) do you think the fact that inflation being well below the inflation targets has made that real wage growth figures easier to achieve?

(I find it hard to talk about inflation targeting with a straight face after hearing the history in this great NPR podcast. it was invented by the Kiwis! super interesting.)
09:47am 31/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24575 posts
A feature of the modern tech driven economy is that it is very hard to generate inflation because as I see the amount of technology in society is increasing our quality of life along with automation of mundane and dangerous work. this drives down the need for low skilled labor as new jobs come online mopping up this labor surplus in emerging sectors, so there is never a labor shortage and thus never a wage breakout. (USA truck drivers in 2019 was an interesting example, pay rates skyrocketed as the Amazon package economy blew up).

inflation really comes down to expansion of government spending or bank lending. if people are not confident about the future they don't borrow as much. low interest rates are saying to me that money is no worth much i.e. people don't want to borrow. traditionally capitalists made their wealth by borrowing but now governments all round the world borrow money at negative rates (rates suppressed by their central banks), dole it out in the form of welfare or corporate throwbacks and then banks are required to hold negative yielding bonds due to basel 3 requirements in a perverse money go round. banks then have to make their money on the remaining private sector lending. banks are not going to enjoy the next 10 years.

1) do you think this record period of stunningly low interest rates/pseudo MMT we are living in might impact this (trivial) economic statistical achievement that Cormann desperately trotted out in response to the (hard) data showing record low growth?


If a government really wanted GDP growth and inflation then MMT is defiinitely the way to go. Venezuela and Zimbabwe are great case studies. GDP increases with any govt expenditure. If the govt embarked on helicopter money or digging holes in the ground then filling them back in (standard govt type work) then GDP would increase. The Aus govt is nowhere near MMT style govt. USA is experiencing it right now (a crony capitalist economy driven by military/industrial complex and political pork barreling) - they are just lucky they have the world's reserve currency.

2) do you think the fact that inflation being well below the inflation targets has made that real wage growth figures easier to achieve?


for sure. inflation is taxation by stealth. a country with high inflation means their govt (or private bankers) is printing money, spending it to win elections, then that money is passed onto workers where it is already worth less. low inflation is always better for the workers because their pay rises buy more. have you ever asked yourself why there is an inflation target? hmmmm
10:19am 31/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39874 posts
have you ever asked yourself why there is an inflation target? hmmmm
umm. that is addressed in the NPR link I provided (tldr: some kiwi guy said "hey I wonder what happens if we tried to limit inflation to a totally arbitrary number?" and they did it and after a few years it worked)

the fact that inflation is so low while everyone is printing money (particularly in the US) just makes me wonder if we've figured out a way to take advantage of free money while surpressing the impact on the inflation metric. Given that since inflation targeting came out governments seem to just be tweaking knobs like interest rate to control it without worrying too much about other impacts (e.g., housing market), I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

with corporate debt what it is today and the fact that everyone assumes this state of affairs is excellent and will continue forever, I am increasingly concerned. (there was a statement yesterday by some venture capitalist on tweeter who said "the time from first email/contact to term sheet has shrunk from 90 days in 2004 to just 9 today" - I find it slightly hard to believe these people have refined their ability to pick winners down by such a margin, but there's just soooo muchhhh cassshhhh that they can spray it literally anywhere and still make money).

interestingly enough the company I am contracting for exists to (basically) insure corporate debt and they still seem upbeat about the whole thing so maybe everything is fine after all
If a government really wanted GDP growth and inflation then MMT is defiinitely the way to go. Venezuela and Zimbabwe are great case studies. GDP increases with any govt expenditure. If the govt embarked on helicopter money or digging holes in the ground then filling them back in (standard govt type work) then GDP would increase. The Aus govt is nowhere near MMT style govt. USA is experiencing it right now (a crony capitalist economy driven by military/industrial complex and political pork barreling) - they are just lucky they have the world's reserve currency.
the USA is the country that would benefit the most on a "digging holes in the ground" scheme with all the money they're printing. but (as you say) it is going to the wrong places. they could embark on a Manhattan Project (I need another metaphor) to build train network or fix their ailing infrastructure or any number of things useful to their citizens

instead it's just being siphoned off by the giant corporates who have figured out how to make their executives rich through share buybacks while racking up just stunning amounts of debt, with a smokescreen of blown up share prices and increased employment to cover their tracks.

just feels like it's going to work perfectly, until one day, it doesn't

ah well, that's what government bailouts are for
10:44am 31/01/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24576 posts
they could embark on a Manhattan Project (I need another metaphor) to build train network or fix their ailing infrastructure or any number of things useful to their citizens


they definitely need that. Trump said he was going to do it. We will just have to wait for EP2 ;) I have to laugh at USA's deficits - they could not give a f***. They all spend like they are at a unit party. "Hey do you know who's place this is?"

just feels like it's going to work perfectly, until one day, it doesn't


One thing that tells me the market is slowly waking up to this government trick is that asset values are inflating across the board - US bonds, equities, gold and bitcoin are all on an upward march (US dollar is having a pretty good time too but that is more of an offshore liquidity thing - because EU banks often lend in US dollars). If investors were cycling from one asset to another it wouldnt be so much of a concern.
10:57am 31/01/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39875 posts
it'd be a lot funnier if Australia & so much of the rest of the world economy wasn't inexorably linked to the fate of the US

waiting to see the fallout from coronavirus. I seem have two classes of people tweeting about this in my timeline:

1) actual scientists who are saying it's a little worse than a bad flu outbreak, but probably not SARS bad
2) finance market-type people who are saying it is the worst thing ever and it is going to wipe out everything

would like to know what positions the latter are holding before I decide whether to take them as seriously as the first category
02:35pm 31/01/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26903 posts
Speaking of funny

03:36pm 31/01/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3927 posts
Renewables are so cheap and so reliable simply energy is asking people to voluntarily turn off their electricity in Victoria today.

Closing Hazelwood with out a plan to replace it was *an amazing* decision.
06:42pm 31/01/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2351 posts
Closing Hazelwood with out a plan to replace it was *an amazing* decision.


Coal is so cheap tho, the market should just whip up another and rake in the profits.

edit: how good are sportz rortz?
05:18pm 02/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3928 posts
Yeah good point. That's something the Victorian government would definitely allow.
07:45pm 02/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24577 posts
I backed the Chiefs for a win feels good man
07:16pm 03/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3929 posts
Trump really has been blessed with a uniquely buffoonish and incompetent opposition.

I didn't think Adam "Trump will give Alaska to Russia" Schiff would be topped when I woke up this morning.

But then Iowa. F*** me.
06:21pm 04/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26905 posts
"...we didn't have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: Slavery built the South. I'm not saying we should bring it back. I'm just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark." - Rush Limbaugh


This guy was just given the Presidential Medal of Freedom by a person who is not racist and also not fascist.
08:11am 06/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
819 posts
Trump would be loved 1/10th as much as he is if the Dems simply kept their adult pants on for more than 5 minutes. They can't do it. They repeatedly signal that Trump is living in their heads rent free and the outcome is always glorious.

The left are the bully victims at school who, instead of it making them into mentally resilient achievers, are the ones who stay victims and complain ad nauseam about every perceived slight, chuck tantys ripping up speeches about record black employment and war veterans, dye their hair purple, eat soy, attend rallies chanting about literally abolishing the USA, that sort of thing. The list goes on forever.

ps. Even Snopes questions that fpot. Not that you'd care about facts.
08:19am 06/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26906 posts
And you're the bully victim who rose above all adversity to become a frightened little incel boy who embodies everything a human being should aspire not to be. Whose entire life is dedicated to finding the right lies to sustain this false self-belief of being something more than a repugnant little s****tain.

It's funny talking to garden variety chuds like infi because I know the words he's saying now are going to be a real embarrassment to him one day. I believe there is a shred of self-awareness lying buried that will become active the day he needs to shield himself from that embarrassment when every card is on the table. Incel chuds like our shrink-wrap d***ed little friend here? They are in it for life. There is no level of shame that can penetrate their facade. It must suck to feel absolutely no hope for yourself but have a disease that makes it so you have to spend your entire life pretending that you do.
08:55am 06/02/20 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4698 posts
Nancy should have kept the speech, perfect reading for the Capitol s****** and also if you are out of paper
10:04am 06/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24578 posts
I think Nancy secretly has the hots for Trump. Classic schoolgirl tactic.
11:14am 06/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3930 posts
Every time fpot posts these diatribes remember trog said this

you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?


Speaking of fantasy based politics I guess this is what it looks like when "master tactician" Pelosi impeached trump into a second term, while landing savage body blows on Biden's campaign.
12:49pm 06/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
820 posts
Another day, another comedic hair-trigger rant from our resident nobody fpot. It is sad that it's this easy but then again, screaming at the sky is something the left is known for.

Some more amazing insight from the intellectual leader of the left in the USA.
10:18am 07/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1261 posts
And you're the bully victim who rose above all adversity to become a frightened little incel boy who embodies everything a human being should aspire not to be. Whose entire life is dedicated to finding the right lies to sustain this false self-belief of being something more than a repugnant little s****tain.

It's funny talking to garden variety chuds like infi because I know the words he's saying now are going to be a real embarrassment to him one day. I believe there is a shred of self-awareness lying buried that will become active the day he needs to shield himself from that embarrassment when every card is on the table. Incel chuds like our shrink-wrap d***ed little friend here? They are in it for life. There is no level of shame that can penetrate their facade. It must suck to feel absolutely no hope for yourself but have a disease that makes it so you have to spend your entire life pretending that you do.


wow? Were you sniffling and crying as you wrote that fpot?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/cXI55CK9F49NK/giphy.gif
11:34am 07/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26907 posts
Uhhh no. Oddly enough like most of the stuff I direct at dazed it also 100% applies to you in case you were feeling left out.

Can you not understand how as someone who enjoys watching the ways chuds ignore reality this is a really good time for me? I can't get this in real life because even all the hard openly racist right-wingers I know think trump is a joke. Only here can I watch chuds employ all sorts of new ways to be willfully ignorant as things pile up higher and higher. Just the other day we saw an impeached president acquitted by an openly corrupt Republican senate who also would have acquitted Ted Bundy because he never actually said he killed anyone and he also seems very sorry.

Sometimes I think one of the barriers stopping the average Joe* from really understanding the situation is it seems too far-fetched. The potus assisted a foreign superpower in an attack against the USA, that attack was to have that potus elected, the potus then committed crimes covering up that assistance. Then after getting away with it, the potus committed the same crimes by asking a Ukraine to start a sham investigation into a political opponent to assist him in the upcoming election and then committed more crimes covering that up. How can that possibly be true?

Well it's objective reality and also a very conservative take on the situation that leaves a whole bunch of stuff out that can't be confirmed at this point because I kind of like to play it safe here and just keep my opinions in the non-controversial spectrum. Of course we're about to see the fresh new tactic of chuds simply declaring the opposite to be true which I can't really blame them for because it works.

* thought I better add, average Joe meaning someone who is apolitical.
03:03pm 08/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24579 posts
Thee Democrats said they were impeaching Trump on the day he was elected so I guess that means they weren't really open minded about the situation. But you're calling the Senate corrupt? The whole impeachment was bogus in the first place. Democrats can't even make up their mind what they are pursuing.

Trump's speech was a home run, there was so much good news to report. The US economy is on fire. Last night's jobs report was red hot. He cleverly completely ignored the impeachment. The impeachment will be remembered as a partisan sandcastle that washed away.

And then there's the democratic primaries. What an embarrassing debacle. As futile as all attempts are to beat Trump I like Mayor Pete's presentation. But as usual with Democrats the problem is with the content. I think Pete is a good chance at $6.50 to win the primary.

Did you see Bloombergvs sombre big gay icecream ad? Pretty much sums up 2020 in 10 seconds. Identity politics is so embedded in the Democrats even non-believers are obliged to go through the motions.

Trump has fallen from $2 to $1.58 and that's still great value. I would rate him more like $1.15. Please don't e-leave fpot. We need you to be here for December.
03:25pm 08/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3931 posts
What's especially entertaining is that the really f*****g dumb middle aged gold coast bouncer says s*** like this

Can you not understand how as someone who enjoys watching the ways chuds ignore reality this is a really good time for me?


And then does this

The potus assisted a foreign superpower in an attack against the USA, that attack was to have that potus elected, the potus then committed crimes covering up that assistance. Then after getting away with it, the potus committed the same crimes by asking a Ukraine to start a sham investigation into a political opponent to assist him in the upcoming election and then committed more crimes covering that up. How can that possibly be true?


Literally nothing about that paragraph is even close to true. That's close to a vash level self own.

It's only going to get more vitriolic from here. The party that can't even count votes shockingly might struggle to make the case they should govern. Even better the people who claim American democracy will never recover from trump have since his election:
Demanded the Supreme Court be packed
Demanded the Senate be altered to give coastal states more power
Demanded Abolishing the electoral college.

Deep down he has to know that the profound incompetence combined with the smug know it all attitude he displays is right of the very centre of why trump will be re-elected. I suspect it's why he's so vitriolic.
03:46pm 08/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26908 posts
Thee Democrats said they were impeaching Trump on the day he was elected so I guess that means they weren't really open minded about the situation.
The democrats knew a career criminal was going to continue to commit crimes while president and were right. The GOP is absolutely and utterly corrupt. They just covered up crimes that were committed in plain sight by the potus. To be honest I don't know why they would considering the (hopefully) long-term reprisals that will come of it, but it appears they may just be ignoring his crimes to save face temporarily. Can't have people thinking the president is dirty can they?

Here's an opinion that is a wee bit controversial. I'd argue that a country led by an undemocratically elected leader who openly obstructs justice, intimidates witnesses, retaliates against witnesses, praises murderous foreign dictators, openly associates with criminals and ticks every single box several times on any warnings of fascism checklist you'd care to shove in my face isn't a democracy. When the oversight the government is meant to provide ignores what they've just ignored there's only one way things can go. The chuds now know that the great leader is able to commit serious crimes openly and get away with it. Imagine how that will expand his capacity for inflicting cruelty on brown subhuman filth, which is what his popularity is all about. Things are looking good.
04:26pm 08/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24580 posts
Oh we are back to "literally fascism".

Here's the compelling truth that you cannot escape about why Trump did not commit a crime - because he was acquitted. It's not a subjective test based on what YOU think. It's a test based on how the Congress and Senate vote - enshrined in a Constitution. You use the word "crime" like by typing it brings with it some gravity. But it doesn't. The one body charged with administering justice via an INTENTIONALLY political process has just made its decision. If a serious crime were to actually have been conducted then the Senate would do the right thing like they did with Nixon. In this case the converse occurred. The matter was summarily dispensed with because it was phony.

As to the claim that Trump can conduct himself with impunity, there is an election coming in 9 months where the American people are about to assess his ethics and give him the tick of approval. You're gonna need to add some more numbers to your rage meter.

Imagine how that will expand his capacity for inflicting cruelty on brown subhuman filth, which is what his popularity is all about.


Yeah, all the drone strikes on middle-easterners and illegal aliens in cages? Oh hang, that was Obama, my bad.

All the complaining in the world will not change the objective reality, that your claims at every stage have been demonstrated wrong by the very same institutions that gave Obama 2 terms. The US flyover states just realised how s***** those 2 terms were.

If the US can keep up the record low unemployment for black and latinos, and keep reducing opioid abuse things are certainly looking up, on top of the 255,000 new jobs per months. Hot damn. When can Australia get some of this!
05:06pm 08/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3932 posts
Something something Chud. Something something facisim. Something something brown people.

You'd think you'd pick up some humility after being flat wrong for three straight years.
05:36pm 08/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26909 posts
It wasn't a trial it was a cover up. trump committed crimes. It's inverse not converse you dumb f***. An election like the last one which trump helped the Russians attack and they're no doubt attacking again, or an election like this one that trump has already sought foreign interference in? Nixon resigned, which is what trump should have done when he heard Mueller's report existed. The conflict in the Middle-East started by the GOP based on a lie have anything to do with those drone strikes you reckon? Gee I wonder why trump stopped reporting civilian casualties resulting from US drone strike? It must be because he cares about jobs, growth and families so much. Obama never instituted family separation as a policy to deter families seeking asylum, which is a human right. Don't seek asylum in the US, or we'll separate you from your children and then lose them in the system. Haha just kidding, there never was a system. Let's go hit nine.
05:43pm 08/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24581 posts
Bruh.

"You say conversely to indicate that the situation you are about to describe is the opposite or reverse of the one you have just described."

Nixon resigned


Why did he resign? (It's because GOP Senators said they would convict him.)

Obama executed those policies faithfully, he oversaw the cages and the drone strikes. They are facts no matter how much you dislike them.

You are on a self-own roll today.

Trumps power doubles after absorbing impeachment attack
05:53pm 08/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26910 posts
Okay you got me on the converse I guess I am the dumb f*** today.

Nixon resigned because he committed crimes and knew he was going to face justice for those crimes. trump didn't resign because he committed crimes and knew he wasn't going to face justice due to a political party rotten to the core. Imagine a person has been charged with a crime. The prosecution has a huge brief of evidence they wish to present. The defendant argues that the prosecution should not be able to present documents and witnesses during the trial. The reason being that they're just so damn innocent it would be an insult for things like evidence to be presented. The prosecution glance nervously at each other when they realise that the judge has no power, and that the decision whether to proceed this way is up to the jury. A jury where a majority of the members have a vested interest in making sure the defendant is found not guilty.

This is what the GOP are considering a legitimate acquittal. What would happen if all trials were conducted this way, do you reckon?
06:05pm 08/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24582 posts
Nixon resigned when the GOP told him that enough Senators had shifted their votes. He knew if he did not resign he would be convicted. It had nothing to do with the evidence, it had everything to do with the numbers. Politics is math.

What would happen if all trials were conducted this way, do you reckon?


1. An impeachment is not a judicial process. It is an exposition of evidence before politicians.
2. The Democrats were able to submit all their evidence via the first stage of the impeachment in the House, they were in control.
3. The defense was blocked from calling certain witnesses in the House hearing. therefore the Democrats had every opportunity to present their case while the defense did not.
4. Even if you wish to draw an analogy to criminal process, an appeal rarely ever hears new evidence. 99% of the time they are heard on the trial evidence.
5. The jury in the case of an impeachment are all vested, it is a purely political process. There is no need to hold a facade of impartiality.
6. The charges do not exist in any criminal code, they were made up.
7. A president can be impeached simply because the House and Congress do not like him/her. (Which is really what the Democrats tried to do in this instance.)

You now know how an impeachment works.
06:18pm 08/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3933 posts
He always gets fuzzy on the details don't he.

Specifically what crime did he commit? No answer just bloviating about "rotten to the core".

I love that Trump's re-election is *still* going to come as a shock to him.
07:17pm 08/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26911 posts
1. Except when evidence is suppressed. Then it's called a cover up
2. And what was the result of that stage again? The one where evidence was allowed?
3. trump refused to participate. Because he was just so innocent. I know when I'm innocent of a crime and have a trial I don't present any defense at all. If I'm not producing a defense then I must be innocent!
4. Not sure why you mentioned this one to be honest.
5. Yeah which causes a bit of a problem when the person is obviously guilty and the majority of the jurors want the verdict to be not guilty.
6. He obstructed congress in an investigation to cover up when he abused his office for personal gain.
7. The democrats started a politically damaging impeachment process that was never going to work because they just dislike trump so much. Or trump's brazen and open criminality forced them to impeach. If they didn't then they may as well be complicit in his crimes.

I do enjoy your giant big lists of dumb though.
07:46pm 08/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24583 posts
In criminal cases the accused has a right to silence.

Impeachment like the Mueller report will next week be a distant memory.
08:00pm 08/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3934 posts
Hey you know what fpots list doesn't have? A specific crime. Again.

He just keeps repeating Democrat talking points like a retard.

In criminal cases the accused has a right to silence.


They also have a right to cross examination. Which the democrats didn't allow.

Hearsay evidence is also excluded and not a single democrat "witness" actually witnessed anything.
08:18pm 08/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
821 posts
fpot: Talks about how fun it is watching people deny reality.

Also fpot: 100% wrong for 3 straight years and rolling and still blames everything on some conspiracy that he has zero evidence for except that he didn't like the outcome.

He is basically a really really poor man's Cenk Uygur


11:49am 09/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26912 posts
It's so cute watching people like you use the word evidence, like you actually know the meaning of the word. Here's the thing though, and like I've already mentioned, I keep things here simple and non-controversial. The things I bring up are accepted facts on the public record and in the context of an internet forum discussion don't require evidence. Just because you're some conspiracy numpty who is trying to push the 'fake news' don't believe your own eyes and ears but only what the great leader says angle doesn't mean I have to waste time by posting links or whatever to things that constitute basic reality.
04:18pm 09/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3935 posts
It's so cute watching people like you use the word evidence, like you actually know the meaning of the word.


Don't forget he believes the literal opposite of the conclusion of the Mueller report.
10:40am 10/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
822 posts
The things I bring up are accepted facts on the public record and in the context of an internet forum discussion don't require evidence.


It's always the people that are right that feel the need to emphasise how they don't need evidence for reasons they also define as legitimate. You're a bad joke.

Just because you're some conspiracy numpty


Not a conspiracy numpty.

Believes that Trump conspired to force Mueller to find he was not guilty of collusion with Russia. Believes Trump conspired to destroy his political opposition and get away with it by forcing the Republican controlled senate to acquit him.

^ both of these positions are held by the same guy.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https://i.imgflip.com/32zcri.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
01:05pm 11/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26913 posts
lol what. If you're going to make stuff up it needs to have at least a kernel of truth to it.
07:34pm 11/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1262 posts
They say Trump might get another term.
11:20pm 11/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3936 posts
lol what. If you're going to make stuff up it needs to have at least a kernel of truth to it.


Ok Mr Trump helped Russia attack America to hurt brown people.

They say Trump might get another term.


It's difficult to see the people who want to run every aspect economy because they think they are so smart but can't organise counting people standing in groups in a high school gym with out f*****g it up putting a compelling case forward from here.
08:03am 12/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
823 posts
Sorry was your conspiracy the one where Trump was pissed on by prostitutes on a collusion trip to Moscow? I can't keep up with the depths of your intellectual deficiencies.

Good to see that the Dems are pushing the actual communist to the front of the polls now. That should work out well for them in November. I am always told by centrists that it's the far Left that we have to worry about and that liberals are actually good people with policy being the only thing separating us. It's clear to anyone with eyes and more than 14 brain cells now that the base of every left-wing major party in the west are actually left-wing extremists and would rather actual communism than the moderate left that Biden represented.

I'm glad that we can now at least lay to rest the theory that liberals are good people. They aren't.
02:35pm 12/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24584 posts
have a listen to the George Papadopoulos podcast on just how phony the Deep State's attempt to derail Trump's campaign was. The Justice Dept is hopefully going to prosecute all of these stooges. And Alexander Downer was at the centre of this operation. Shame!

https://twitter.com/PUNCHINGBACKPOD
02:56pm 12/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26914 posts
Sorry was your conspiracy the one where Trump was pissed on by prostitutes on a collusion trip to Moscow?
Again, no. Your fellow chuds obviously don't mind, but do you not realise how ridiculous you sound when you lie about conspiracy theories I've promoted (and not just normal lies, really bizarre lies) and then froth about how the democrats are actually extremist left communists and they are the real evil ones? Do you not understand how someone like me would get enjoyment from the internal meltdown you must have experienced that would make you resort to such absurd bulls***?

the Deep State's attempt
lol
03:49pm 12/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39878 posts
genuinely curious if you are having a laugh at George Papadopoulos or you seriously think he is credible?

edit: I hope it's the former because then it means the irony of you saying who cares about the Mueller report and then bringing up this guy is not lost on you
07:45pm 12/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3937 posts
Ah yeah so this is your brain on working in IT in East London.

genuinely curious if you are having a laugh at George Papadopoulos or you seriously think he is credible?

edit: I hope it's the former because then it means the irony of you saying who cares about the Mueller report and then bringing up this guy is not lost on you


Genuinely curious if you think the Mueller report was damaging to Trump. For people with a primary school reading ability it *very clearly* states there was no collusion with Russia, which is terminal to an obstruction of justice case.

And if so what your explanation as to why the democrats did not rely on its findings to impeach and the *damning* IG report into the FBI's FISA abuses.

Failing that a working definition of *credible*.
07:58pm 12/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24585 posts

Papadopoulos is the real deal. Mueller report was based on non-existant evidence manufactured by intelligence agencies allied to Clinton.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/12/bill-barr-john-durham-michael-horowitz-inspector-general-report

Hopefully a wide ranging investigation will flush all this treasonous behaviour. The conduct by these operatives is disgraceful.

Mueller report was a total nothing burger, justice like CNN secretly admitted.

Alexander Downer goes to the heart of this scandal.


07:59pm 12/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39879 posts
so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?
08:19pm 12/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24586 posts
so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?


Now they are somewhat remedied because the corrupt actors have resigned and been fired. Did you even read the news about the Inspector General report?

- Emails doctored by FBI operatives to support FISA warrant aplications;
- Fake dossiers of utter bulls***, by Russian actors

And here we have a Mueller report trying to paint the Trump campaign as involved with Russia when the FBI agents initiating surveillance WERE ACTUALLY involved with Russians.

But make no mistake, if the intelligence community doesn't think a presidential candidate suits their agenda they will do their best to make the candidate fail. Popadopolous describes their methods in detail.

Hopefully these bad actors get some serous jail time for ACTUAL obstruction of justice and treason. As Popa says, what they did makes Watergate look pedestrian.
08:41pm 12/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3938 posts
you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?
so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?


So if understand correctly you could draw that conclusion only if your head is planted firmly in own asahole.
09:05pm 12/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39880 posts
wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law

I recall way back when he was voted in and I asked something along the lines of: "what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?" and you replied "raise taxes"

I will never forget that. I respect the honesty of it

I instituted a personal moratorium on US news a few weeks ago, until after the election is over; I can't sit around and watch the Democrats flail around like idiots for most of the year and literally everything Trump and the Republicans do makes me weary
11:03pm 12/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24587 posts

what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?

you can add to that list a second item: not prosecute the illegal surveillance of his campaign. Unaccountable intelligence agencies need a good clean out from time to time.

If you don't believe in the concept of the Deep State I will just leave this here for you to contemplate.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/304009-clapper-denied-nsa-surveillance-in-us-weeks-before-verizon-tracking-program-began-

You may have also heard of a guy named Edward Snowden. If you don't believe the Deep State is doing its own thing, while both Congress and the President have no f*****g clue, then you're a chump. (same goes for Aus.)


11:13pm 12/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26915 posts
wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law
Yeah you did.

There is nothing functionally different between the deep state conspiracy crew and a 9/11 truther or flat earther. They're all affected by the exact same critical thinking defects. Think back to when 9/11 truthers were in their prime. They'd be like, hey check out this link that PROVES 9/11 was an inside job. You'd read it and it would be complete nonsense, just like what I'd be reading if I was stupid enough to click on any of infi's links above. In the past they'd develop their little ideas and lies to counter the truth themselves and they'd be quite funny and fragmented but what Russian troll farm twitter has done is found a way to unify them and provide them with a consistent set of lies that they can propagate elsewhere. That's the genius of it.

The problem is that they lock themselves into the conspiracy, and the feeble little minds who believe it in the first place are nowhere near strong enough to abort the idea when it becomes patently ridiculous. So they keep believing and promoting bigger and bigger lies and we're left with these tragic trainwrecks of humanity. In the past they were just forms of amusement and schadenfreude but I'm starting to think maybe it is not okay to laugh at them. I feel like I may be ignoring some sort of threat but I could very well be overreacting there.
05:30am 13/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3939 posts
wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law


What's funny is that concocting a fantasies that allow you to disregard the outcome of elections *cough* "Russia attacked America and Trump helped" *cough* or *cough* "Republicans engaged in voter suppression" *cough* or * cough* "we need to do away with the electoral college and the senate because they give small states too much power in a federal system expressly designed to guarantee the equality of states" *cough*
Are all open broadside attacks on rule of law. Much more serious ones I might add than believing the incontrovertible truth that the US has a permanent bureaucracy who are not answerable directly to the electorate.

There is nothing functionally different between the deep state conspiracy crew and a 9/11 truther or flat earther. They're all affected by the exact same critical thinking defects.


For example. Capitan Russia attacked America with trump to hurt brown people has an opinion on critical thinking. Good times.
06:43am 13/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1263 posts
For the next US term I hope Bernie gets. It will be entertaining to see the financial and social disaster that unfolds.

I hope he goes for a Robin Hood styled suit and gives the average forklift operator the opportunity to participate more in the business planning of their employer, cause that would work really well.. as we are all equal.

http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/time_bandits_26.png
11:09am 13/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24588 posts
why would you risk Bolshevik misery on the US just when it is motoring along?
11:22am 13/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
824 posts
Again, no. Your fellow chuds obviously don't mind, but do you not realise how ridiculous you sound when you lie about conspiracy theories I've promoted (and not just normal lies, really bizarre lies) and then froth about how the democrats are actually extremist left communists and they are the real evil ones? Do you not understand how someone like me would get enjoyment from the internal meltdown you must have experienced that would make you resort to such absurd bulls***?


It's handy not admitting to supporting any conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia when you try to insult somebody by calling them a conspiracy numpty. I was simply elaborating on the genesis of that conspiracy but you're even too dumb to realise that. Everyone who has spent more than 5 minutes on this forum knows all about your retarded Trump-Russia conspiracy beliefs. Nice try though.

Here's a reminder of what Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy theories fpot believes that have been debunked by the same evidence he says proves his theories correct:

1) Russia attacked the USA
2) trump helped Russia attack the USA because installing him as potus was the attack
3) trump then committed crimes covering up how he helped Russia attack the USA

Numpty indeed.
03:13pm 13/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26916 posts
1) Russia attacked the USA
2) trump helped Russia attack the USA because installing him as potus was the attack
3) trump then committed crimes covering up how he helped Russia attack the USA


Yep, that's what happened. Supported in detail by Mueller's report. Your bizarre claim that it actually debunks those things is just your standard fake news conspiracy defence mechanism to help you hide from the truth. That's all your brain is capable of, fooling itself, because you're a conspiracy numpty. Sucks to be you pal.

edit: oh and then instead of resigning, which is what would normally happen, he committed a very similar set of crimes in regards to Ukraine and with the help of an openly corrupt GOP senate got away with that too. And then as a result of getting away with that new set of crimes decided it is now okay for team member William Barr to directly interfere with his associate Roger Stone's case because why the f*** not right?
05:03pm 13/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39881 posts

what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?

you can add to that list a second item: not prosecute the illegal surveillance of his campaign. Unaccountable intelligence agencies need a good clean out from time to time.

If you don't believe in the concept of the Deep State I will just leave this here for you to contemplate.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/304009-clapper-denied-nsa-surveillance-in-us-weeks-before-verizon-tracking-program-began-

You may have also heard of a guy named Edward Snowden. If you don't believe the Deep State is doing its own thing, while both Congress and the President have no f*****g clue, then you're a chump. (same goes for Aus.)


wow you are pro-Snowden?! I wish AG forum search wasn't broken so I could go deep-diving in the old political nightmare threads to see if you have always felt like this :D

here's what I don't get - the current leader of the US lies all the time

he lies like a common charlatan or cult leader. he lies even when he doesn't need to! he lies to serve his own ends, maybe sometimes he's lying to serve American's ends, or the Republican ends, but mostly it doesn't feel like it because most of the lies are just so obviously transparent

when the leader of the country has that kind of relationship with the truth, do you think the other people in his administration are going to be more or less trustworthy? when they can see him lying literally all the time, getting called out on it, but then nothing happens

so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?

why would you risk Bolshevik misery on the US just when it is motoring along?
I thought we agreed earlier that all is not what it seems in the US economy these days
05:48pm 13/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24589 posts
so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?


The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins. It's the way Trump worked before he came to office and he has stayed true to the game. He cries about the fake news like a soccer player or basketball player milks a foul. Sometimes you get a penalty sometimes you get penalised. it's all part of the game.

I am yet to see anything criminal or anti-American interests. Record unemployment; tarrifs on China; renegotiated NAFTA; no negative rates etc etc his SOTU speech was a great overvierw. USA is head and shoulder above every other country from an economic performance POV - and geopolitically- Trump annihilates the pathetic Obama positions.

I get a real laugh every time fpot suggests Trump is a Russian asset and colluding with foreign powers. it is honestly a sheer joy to see such profound delusion this close to home. So much more enjoyable than the random hysteria on CNN and MSNBC.

I thought we agreed earlier that all is not what it seems in the US economy these days


what a second - it's one thing having a structural deficit with no hope of ever repaying, and another thing to tax someone at 90%. he makes jeremy corbyn look like Bruce Banner.
06:06pm 13/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3940 posts
Yep, that's what happened. Supported in detail by Mueller's report.



Except the Mueller report states in exhaustive detail that didn't happen.

Just ask him to get specific about what attack means and what trump helping means. He either can't read or has confused "attack" with post Facebook memes.

Anything less than pinpoint paragraph reference means fpot is lying. He is also quite comfortable lying about having read it.

so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?


Imagine think with an adult brain that us media "fact checkers" passively assess hard factual claims.
08:45pm 13/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26917 posts
The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins
Nah, they're just lies.

edit: here's a good example. A lie trump promotes is that CrowdStrike is a Ukrainian owned company (it's based in California) and had planted evidence on a server falsely implicating Russia in its attack on the 2016 US Election (Russia were clearly the culprits). This is pure Russian propaganda yet trump can be clearly heard promoting it on Fox News. This goes against every US Intelligence agency and helps Russia cover up the 2016 attack. trump's lies discredit US Intelligence agencies while helping Russia get away with an attack on the country he is president of. That is one example amongst dozens.
08:16am 14/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26918 posts
Roger Stone a trump associate is (was) facing a 9 year prison term for committing 7 felonies with a maximum sentence at 20 years. trump lies, saying he has been harshly dealt with to the degree that the AG should get involved for a sentence reduction or possible pardon. Not lies, just harmless marketing spin.
09:33am 14/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39882 posts
The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins. It's the way Trump worked before he came to office and he has stayed true to the game. He cries about the fake news like a soccer player or basketball player milks a foul. Sometimes you get a penalty sometimes you get penalised. it's all part of the game.
obviously you think this sort of behaviour is fine. I think it's fine in the boardroom (in the short term) where the only thing on the line is money. it's arguably the single worst thing about soccer

but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon

what about his recent comments that the EU was created to treat the US badly? stuff like that which actual Americans who will watch that and think "huh, is THAT why the EU was founded! the more you know".
I am yet to see anything criminal or anti-American interests. Record unemployment; tarrifs on China; renegotiated NAFTA; no negative rates etc etc his SOTU speech was a great overvierw. USA is head and shoulder above every other country from an economic performance POV - and geopolitically- Trump annihilates the pathetic Obama positions.
not clear at all to me that everything is as rosy as it looks in the US economy. it is cushioned by the biggest bubble of corporate and government debt ever seen. I will find it hard to blame Trump if it blows up, any more than I give him any credit for the current state of affairs, because it seems like it more like a result of reckless financial policy that he is just taking advantage of

in terms of "geopolitically annihilating" blah blah blah, how do you feel about for e.g. the farming subsidies that have been handed out to bolster US ag because of the easily winnable trade war crushing their customer base? I am curious how you model victory in this scenario when everything the administration is doing is just plunging the nation into more debt than it's ever had before. I mean anyone can win the economy with free money. and I say this as someone that is generally cheerfully happy with ridiculous amounts of government spending and not opposed in principle to China tariffs (actually as noted above I want more on energy stuff)

as usual with anything economic it just seems like there are a lot of variables and you can look at any slice of it to give you the narrative you want. only time will tell if it's gonna pan out. if the debt bubble bursts or there is a bigger blip in international markets (lots of financial panthers I see losing their s*** over coronovirus, but it has the feel of them pushing short term pump and dump really) then we'll see what happens

it's one thing having a structural deficit with no hope of ever repaying, and another thing to tax someone at 90%.
I mean... is it? it seems like those two things are actually very closely linked. if you do the second strawman thing, you eliminate the first thing
10:52am 14/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24590 posts
but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon


This is a very interesting comment. Steve Bannon really puts it best. Trump is not a conservative, he's a populist. He doesn't give a s*** about the the EU or NATO or UN.

Trump is larger than life and follows a very predictable formula.

1. Show outrage at a specific issue.
2. Make exaggerated claim dramatisating the issue.
3. Attribute this failure to specific person or persons and disparage.
4. Make an exaggerated demand to fix the issue.
5. Make a number disparaging remarks about person when they cannot meet this demand.
6. Let minions negotiate the actual position.
7. Attend the official signing and photo of settled position, smiling and shaking hands.

e.g. the farming subsidies that have been handed out to bolster US ag


EU China and Japan are doing it, so I guess why not. Global trade is far from fair. Never has been. It would be better if no one subsidised agriculture, but at the same time, politicians do not want to have their heads cut off.

I will find it hard to blame Trump if it blows up, any more than I give him any credit for the current state of affairs, because it seems like it more like a result of reckless financial policy that he is just taking advantage of
don't disagree with you, but at least he hasn't put any lead in the saddlebags.

I mean... is it? it seems like those two things are actually very closely linked.


if Bernie gets in and implements punitive tax regimes USA will experience what France experienced with its puniutive tax rate, wealthy flee and the planned revenue severely undershoots. (However, just like the world did not end under Trump, nor will it under Bernie assuming there is some sort of Congress gridlock.)
11:14am 14/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3941 posts
but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon


What's particularly interesting about that point is that whenever people talk about Trump's lack of statesmanship, it is virtually always glossed over that America's ALLIES have often been taking the piss, in some cases for decades. It would be nice to have an eloquent speaker, but for below it's more important to have an inarticulate speaker who actually forces the issue than an eloquent wet fish.

The UN would simply cease to exist without American money and military logistic support. It would be, to a greater extent than it already is, a high school debating club that stands around damning Israel.

As for NATO, until some can explain the logic in allowing Germany to neglect it's spending obligations in perpetuity *while* insisting on increasing its energy depence on, and enriching, the cheif geo-political rival NATO *was expressly formed to control*, Trump's rhetoric to this "ally" is completely justified.
12:24pm 14/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39883 posts
This is a very interesting comment. Steve Bannon really puts it best. Trump is not a conservative, he's a populist. He doesn't give a s*** about the the EU or NATO or UN.
It is not clear he gives a s*** about anything but himself and to a lesser extent his family, cheerfully building a nepotist aristocratic dynasty in full view. Whether this benefits America in the long term is yet to be seen.
2. Make exaggerated claim dramatisating the issue.
it feels like an "exaggerated claim" to call his "exaggerated claims", "exaggerated claims". but I think you're on target with the rest. I don't think the negotiated positions in most of these cases are much better than they would have been through normal diplomacy and I reckon they're burning more bridges.
It would be better if no one subsidised agriculture, but at the same time, politicians do not want to have their heads cut off.
indeed. ag subsidies are an important (socialist) policy to provide food security.
don't disagree with you, but at least he hasn't put any lead in the saddlebags.
well, that's what I was asking - has the trade war been that lead? when it comes to who has the patience to prop up their economy the longest with taxpayer dollars to mitigate the effects, my money would be on China
if Bernie gets in and implements punitive tax regimes USA will experience what France experienced with its puniutive tax rate, wealthy flee and the planned revenue severely undershoots. (However, just like the world did not end under Trump, nor will it under Bernie assuming there is some sort of Congress gridlock.)
I am not sure this will happen for a few reasons:

1) America will still probably be a better place to be a gazillionaire. it's bigger, better developed, and has more (recent) history of catering to the ultra wealthy
2) American companies and aristocrats already have their wealth managed efficiently internationally. I think the actual real world impact of Bernie-ism will be hard to scratch the surface of this wealth any time soon & will only affect the next generation. which probably is fine but I suspect there might be a lot of disappointed Bernie/Warren voters when they find out it's gonna take 20 years for new policies to have an impact
3) the US is one of the few countries in the world that taxes its citizens when they live abroad. they already have the stuff set up in place to manage this process. obviously the ultra-wealthy already have processes in place to manage this and any tax they pay personally is functionally zero anyway but I think the fact that this mechanism exists would change the equation a little bit
01:14pm 14/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3942 posts
well, that's what I was asking - has the trade war been that lead? when it comes to who has the patience to prop up their economy the longest with taxpayer dollars to mitigate the effects, my money would be on China


The trade war hurts China more than the US because the trade balance is so lopsided. They may have the will but it's doubtful they have the means.

But at this point I think we can move to disregarding trogs opinion altogether.

Firstly he now flat out says he doesn't inform himself of US News. But secondly a person saying the US debt situation is serious who then goes on to defend Bernie Sanders is profoundly unserious.

All the more so if you take the point that America's weathly will simply evade the proposed new taxes seriously. where does that leave the funding of tens of trillions of dollars of new spending? I mean its either going to be a broad based tax on the working and middle class like Sweden or its going to be debt.

But don't worry he will be able to tell infi that any policy which aids society is socialist for the millionth time, which is an idea so stupid it's not obvious it needs rebuttal. Capitalism helps people make societies, so capitalism must be socialist! OMG.

Maybe he can slip in another comment about believing in rule of law to a f*****g lawyer again.
09:23am 15/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3943 posts
Moving forward it's going to be entertaining to watch more and more claims that Bernie Sanders isn't a real socialist.

For example here
Krugman saying he isn't a really real socialist. It's a twofa when you think about it. Not only is Krugman continuing to draw mountains of doubt on the worth of the Nobel prize for economics, he is trying to say a man who was literally a member of the Trotskyite Socialist Workers Party, isn't a socialist.

I remember watching a friendly jordies video before the UK elections where he tried to say a *life long self identified Marxist* wasn't a "socialist".
09:07pm 15/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1264 posts

Has someone pointed out a successful implementation of Socialism in a nation yet? or is Vash and fpot still dreaming?

https://thefederalist.com/2019/06/25/socialism-didnt-work-in-sweden-and-it-wont-work-in-america/


06:40pm 17/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26919 posts
Did you deliberately find the weakest bulls*** you can find from the most obvious junk news conspiracy numpty website you can find because you thought it might make me reflexively defend a position I've never held?
07:21pm 17/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3944 posts
It’s time to give the elites a bigger say in choosing the president.

Julia Azari is an associate professor and assistant chair in the Department of Political Science at Marquette University. This is the third op-ed in a series about how to improve the presidential nominating process.



Mmm is so rich and tasty. If you wanted a hyper concentration of why Trump is going to win there you have it.

What's *so amazing* about it is that the headline expressly advocating for less democratic primaries is right below wapos "democracy dies in dementia" tag line.

Putting aside its another article in the genre "process X makes democrats look bad so process X is bad", it's a golden example of how these people are simply incapable of thinking how their words read outside the carefully curated bubble.
08:21pm 19/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24591 posts
The Democrat primary is laughable and shows just how failed their party has become. They don't stand for anything other than a smattering of leftist fringe issues. I have never heard a Democrat contender talk about working class or blue collar issues.
08:43pm 19/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26920 posts
If only they could have become the corruption ridden autocracy that the GOP has become. The Democratic party is indeed failing. It's withering away in the face of an unbridled assault on democracy that no-one was prepared for. It seems obvious now - put measures in place for when a president and now a party go completely rogue and start ignoring things like the truth, justice, integrity and accountability. Instead the accused are the ones who determine their own guilt. Because every person who downplays, defends or supports trump's actions is culpable in this. It's going to be an utter f*****g horror show if he's "elected" again. They'll never recover from it. infi wants this to happen for some reason.

I have never heard a Democrat contender talk about working class or blue collar issues.
watch as the well-trained little doggy lies just like his master. No wait let me guess, harmless marketing spin?
09:00pm 19/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3945 posts
Yep the democrat party is failing because Trump. Got it.

Trump made it so democrats can't count votes.
Of course, there's the fact that lefties are a bit funny about accepting the outcome of votes recently aren't they? For example
It's going to be an utter f*****g horror show if he's "elected" again. They'll never recover from it. infi wants this to happen for some reason.
elected in scare quote lol.
Best part is this dribbling retard has the temerity to accuse others of believing propaganda.
watch as the well-trained little doggy lies just like his master. No wait let me guess, harmless marketing spin?


I mean there's really f*****g dumb, and then there's this.

Elizabeth "dances with tenure" Warren said she'll give a teenage trans person a veto of her appointment of an education secretary I'm sure Detroit Auto workers were all nodding and saying "well its about time".
06:47am 20/02/20 Permalink
Vash
6221 posts
He was right on one thing, his dumb as dogs*** supporters would still vote for him if he shot someone on fifth avenue.

Apparently Infi hasnt heard of Bernie Sanders.
09:59am 20/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24592 posts
The Democrat party will never let Bernie be nominee. Hate to break it to ya pal. Back to washing your pile of Che Guevara shirts.

Supporting Bernie because he has principles, is like supporting China because they have principles.

now in fpot's world elections are "elections". it's only a proper election if my guy wins.... Zzzzzzz
10:08am 20/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3946 posts
Back to washing your pile of Che Guevara shirts.


Pfft the revolution doesn't recognise the verb "to wash". They are merely differently soiled, and that's mummy's job anyways.
10:20am 20/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1265 posts
fpot, you dispute the claims in the article?

The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits that their hardworking parents once despised.

Sweden not only fell from being the 4th richest country to the 14th richest country, but its very nature as a country changed. An authoritarian-like government was necessary to ensure the population did not abuse its welfare system. Sweden’s democracy was sliding into a dictatorship, and the Swedish people were not pleased.

The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the ’80s. The ’90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

“Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,” Norberg said quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure,” Norberg said. To reform and save its economy, Sweden reverted back to its capitalist structure. It reduced public spending by a third, demolished taxes on property and inheritance, and reduced taxes in other areas. Defined benefits were cut and only defined contributions were permitted.

The system became partially privatized with privately-owned accounts. The markets became opened to private providers and private companies who contributed to institutions like healthcare and schools. Sweden also deregulated markets to cause a surge in entrepreneurship.

Swedish healthcare became regionally run and funded by local state tax. Overconsumption had created long hospital lines depriving those with urgent needs of immediate attention. These kinds of inefficiencies of the universal programs caused Sweden to open to more private companies.


Or is that "not the socialism you want".. and your still searching for the successful implementation that you want to have once you have your revolution?
11:43am 20/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26921 posts
Holy s*** you're dumb Nmag.

now in fpot's world elections are "elections". it's only a proper election if my guy wins.... Zzzzzzz
The 2016 US election was attacked by Russia. The attack was to create a miasma of disinformation in an attempt to elect trump. Russia knew that trump was a bumbling, amoral career criminal who would bring the same incompetence to the presidency that he had in squandering his inheritance. trump assisted them in this attack and then commited crimes covering up this assistance. trump has also sought foreign interference in the upcoming election. It would be utterly foolish to assume that Russia aren't attacking this election like they did the last one. So yeah, "election".
01:37pm 20/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3947 posts
So Hillary didn't win the popular vote?

You don't get to pick and choose the invalid "election" facts.

Either it's wholly invalid or it's not.

Don't forget "attack" is an irregular verb in fpot english. The infinitive is "to post Facebook memes".
02:36pm 20/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3948 posts
https://i.postimg.cc/zGs4VdXM/ERPMJEs-UUAE3-EPG.jpg
OMG the RUSSIANS are creating a miasma of disinformation to make Mike Bloomberg seem like a porn star and he won't win the election because of it and Trump helped and covered up that he helped and got his attorney general to help and help to cover it up and sought the help of a Nigerian prince who keeps trying to sell me Viagra.
08:54am 21/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1266 posts
fpot hysterical fantasy brought on by TDS. Did you want the Clinton machine? You can't really have been hoping for Bernie?

A debate review.

https://youtu.be/cecXmZS8gAM

Classic:

“The best known socialist in this country (America) is a millionaire and has 3 houses” #berniegettinburned
12:15pm 21/02/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2353 posts
06:17pm 21/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3949 posts
Doesn't return of the Jedi end with an old guy getting electrocuted to death?

So your saying Bernie will be killed by a defribulator ;)
07:19pm 21/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
825 posts
I don't think I've ever seen a bigger cuck meme than that one.

You support a guy who railed against the existence of millionaires until he became one then it became solely billionaires. He was also kicked out of a commune because he was a sophist and didn't do any work, as evidenced by the fact that Bloomberg of all people can humiliate him and his ill-gotten wealth.

Can someone name a single Bernie achievement? Can someone name one job Bernie has created that wasn't due to a Congressional appropriation?
01:35am 22/02/20 Permalink
taggs
6614 posts
Fpot, assuming all of that is true - what do you reckon Russia has today under Trump that they wouldn't have had under Clinton?

Agree with you on that game of the decade thread re fo:nv btw.
07:49am 22/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26923 posts
If I were to say just one thing it would be that by weakening the US they've also weakened her allies and hence NATO. Major nations like Germany, France the UK etc can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position. The exact reason why Russia would look to weaken NATO I don't know except that it makes Russia stronger. In a more general sense the US is Russia's main rival and having trump at the helm more or less leaves the country leaderless. This has a wide range of effects which I'm sure I don't need to go into because we're all witnessing them.

There is no way of knowing exactly why Russia are doing this it could be for literally hundreds of different reasons. However we do know that Russia launched a sophisticated attack on the 2016 US Election and from all accounts it seems as though they're at it again but don't say that too loud or you might get fired.
09:28am 22/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3950 posts
It has been nearly four years and fpot has never linked to the actual "sophisticated attack".

Here is what internet research agency was posting to Facebook.https://i.postimg.cc/cL2fwjrV/ERUMvvj-Wo-AAR00k.pnghttps://i.postimg.cc/wBFHSKLr/ERUL0-Te-W4-AAWX0-Y.png

This was the attack. Remember also *in four years* fpot has explained exactly how Trump helped Russia conduct these "sophisticated attacks" exactly zero times. Zero.

And if you think I'm exaggerating. Here is a so called Pulitzer prize news outlet fact checking whether there was *really* 20 seconds silence after a Bloomberg claim in the dem debate. They do not fact check his actual claim *once*.

If I were to say just one thing it would be that by weakening the US they've also weakened her allies and hence NATO. Major nations like Germany, France the UK etc can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position. The exact reason why Russia would look to weaken NATO I don't know except that it makes Russia stronger. In a more general sense the US is Russia's main rival and having trump at the helm more or less leaves the country leaderless. This has a wide range of effects which I'm sure I don't need to go into because we're all witnessing them.


As for this retarded hot mess.

Get the middle aged gold coast bouncer with a "deep understanding" of geopolitics to explain how the United States insisting it's allies in a millitary alliance meet their military spending obligations *weakens* NATO and strengthens Russia. In fpot land insisting Germany *increase its military spending to.the level it freely agreed to pay* is Germany "can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position".

Then get the middle aged gold coast bouncer with a "deep understanding" of geopolitics to explain how placing sanctions on Russian oil exports to western Europe weakens NATO and strengthens Russia. Also get knucklehead to explain how Germany relying on Russia for energy security helps NATO.

Because that's is the sum total of what we've witnessed under Trump.
10:38am 22/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24593 posts
Sophisticated hacking aka running a few Facebook memes. Also: 4chan tried to hack the US election..
11:33am 22/02/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39884 posts
what do you reckon Russia has today under Trump that they wouldn't have had under Clinton?
Maybe nothing tangible. Clinton would have been despised by roughly the same percentage of Americans (pretty obviously), but she would not have been as actively disruptive in anywhere near the same way. Ignoring his blaming of the Democrats for literally everything, Trump goes out of his way to alienate entire chunks of the population, just to score a few points with the sort of people that find totally obnoxious behaviour endearing as long as it's dumping on someone/something they don't like.

It is almost purely divisive behaviour (in many cases indistinguishable from exactly the kind of thing trolls paid to troll do).

So to answer your question, I think Russia has helped achieve the creation of an America in which many, many more segments of the population - not just Ds and Rs - feel like they are constantly at each other's throats, simply because of the behaviour of the president. It feels unprecedented (unpresidented?) to be in this situation, watching the leader of an ostensibly free country screaming and carrying on at up to 50% of the population at a time.

Hypothetical back at you:

Let's say Trump (against all odds) loses the upcoming election to a Democrat.

What do you think the chances are that he will make subtle (unlikely) or overt comments to the effect that the election was rigged? What do you think the chances are that he would float the idea of violent insurrection being required to stop such an injustice? Does anyone think he would go gracefully into the night? WHAT WOULD HE SAY?

I think an actual civil war is astronomically unlikely as an outcome, but certainly I fear that there are enough people that would buy into that narrative for there to be loss of life.

I have been worrying about this for months and have been too scared to even write it down because it's such a horrible thought that a political leader of the US would actively encourage its citizens to fight against its own institutions in that way. But he has done it at every opportunity. I am more worried now that he will LOSE.
04:59pm 22/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1267 posts
I have been worrying about this for months and have been too scared to even write it down because it's such a horrible thought ...


TDS. Now with added imagination.

https://thehustle.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/trump_og_image.jpg
01:38am 23/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3951 posts
Oh a lecture in not accepting the outcome of elections from a Hilary supporter.

Hey here is a hypothetical. Well actually a simple factual statement of reality but anyway...

What damage do you think retards like fpot refusing to accept the outcome of elections, inspector general reports, special council reports, the legitimacy of the electoral college, the supreme Court, the Democrat party primaries, the senate and according to Pelosi the outcome of impeachment trials might be having on "faith in institutions".

Or better yet the now proven case that the FBI perjured itself in a secret court to spy on a presidential campaign. What damage do you reckon that brainwave did to "faith in institutions".

It's pretty hard to take Trump is attacking institutions seriously from you people.

As for Russia spread divisiveness. Step us through how they made the democrats adopt identity politics which insists over 60% of the population was born with original sin.

When we had the gay marriage debate here and fpot called hardware a piece of s*** because he was thinking of voting against it. Was that the Russians, or is that just how leftist talk to people and you're fine with it.
08:04am 23/02/20 Permalink
Vash
6222 posts
The scary Socialist seems to be doing well.
10:05am 23/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24594 posts
The scary Socialist seems to be doing well.


*Measures deaths by socilaism*

Yep
10:10am 23/02/20 Permalink
Vash
6223 posts
Sounds like you're coming down with a case of BDS, Bernie deranged syndrome. This is going to be fun.
10:22am 23/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3952 posts
Yep the millionaire socialist with no significant legislative achievements in 30 years of public life who is promising to remake the economy from the ground up will definitely win.

Bernie has never been tested outside the bubble.

I look forward to him replicating Corbyn's effort.

Just to give a single touch stone among *thousands*.

Here is Bernie saying free college is a right illegal immigrants should enjoy.

in which Bernie commits electoral suicide.

To get some context on that no more than 30% of Americans have college degrees.

Good luck getting 70% of Americans to provide free college education to people who have no right to be in the USA when they don't get it.

Yet somehow he doesn't get grilled on this insane bulls*** by democrats. Trump will eat this sad little man alive.
11:36am 23/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1268 posts
It's going to be funny if Bernie gets in, and it's going to be funny if Trump gets a 2nd term. We can't lose.
11:39am 24/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24595 posts
PP just get Colleges to build more colleges at gunpoint. Boom.
11:46am 24/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3953 posts
I see his strategy for Florida is coming together nicely.

State that almost always goes to the elected president has a large population of Jews and Cuban refugees.

So Sanders attacks AIPAC and praises Castro.

IT'S 400D CHESS BIGOTS!
01:07pm 24/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26924 posts
The President of the United States of America believes that the fake news media conspiracy is using coronavirus (which he doesn't even know how to spell) as a tool to sabotage the stock market in an effort to discredit him. In response he has put the responsibility of managing the potential crisis into the hands of a religious fundamentalist. Coronavirus may fizzle out which dangerous strains of disease inevitably do. If this happens Pence has done a terrific job, praise jesus! If it goes the other way Pence will face an utterly impossible task as a shambolic comedy of f***wits bumble their way into the highest death toll possible. Trump will then blame him.
11:57pm 27/02/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1269 posts
frothpot giving air to conspiracies that he wants to exist so he can discredit. What a weapon.

I've been watching left wing social media get hysterical about how much each democratic candidate is worth. According to these angry losers, if you're rich you are evil.

Bernie walks on his hind legs and lives in the house now. Not outside with the other animals. Bloomberg walks on his hind legs, lives in the house and has a microwave oven... evil!

Result: Bernie is the best!.. nah hang on Buttieig has less money.. he IS THE BEST.. go Buttieig !!!
11:07am 28/02/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41427 posts
wow, this thrad is spiralling into new levels of dumb!
08:04pm 28/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24596 posts
Hopefully you support ScoMo deporting NZ crims, Spook
08:18pm 28/02/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
826 posts
fpot is being a conspiracy numpty again.

ScoMo should deport that badass b**** Jacinda Ardern. Byproduct of a fatal dose of progressivism and 3rd wave feminism.
11:29pm 28/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26925 posts
fpot is being a conspiracy numpty again.
One of the defining characteristics of chuds is how they'll weakly try to use your own words against you. Quick calibration check - are vaccines still a Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation conspiracy or did you actually manage to grow out of that one? Congrats if you did, but it all counts for nothing now that you're all in on the deep state conspiracy and fake news conspiracy.
05:28am 29/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3954 posts
One of the defining characteristics of a left wing social justice warrior is total certainty about things they have *no* competence in.

Like fpot for example. As a middle aged gold coast bouncer he knows exactly nothing about medicine. Nothing at all.

But here he is waxing lyrical the coronavirus with his typical total certainty couched in total ignorance of the subject.

The circle of fpots competence extends to standing in front of s***** clubs keeping teenagers out.

The thing is that deep down he knows it. He has managed to convince his tiny little brain that of he calls people a chud, a racist, a mysoginist (noting he is so comfortable with women he is single), or a conspiracy theorist first it proves he isn't.
02:14pm 29/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24597 posts
fpot keeps going on about this russia collusion thing and the mueller report when exactly zero conspiracy prosecutions ever eventuated. let it gooooo. a whole bunch of obama administration agents and prosecutors are about to be indicted by Durham and yet you keep believing the russia collusion lie. fabricating fisa warrants, running covert operations against campaign members. you really need to listen to papadopoulos.

it will be confronting because it will cause you to change your mind.
02:35pm 29/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3955 posts
Despite having no legal training he also has very strong opinions about obstruction of justice in another country where there is no underlying crime.

Hey infi cast your mind way back to law school. Do you recall any general observations about how hard crimes with an intention element are to prove?

Maybe you could make some comments in passing about proving beyond a responsible doubt an intention to cover up a crime that didn't happen.

You know with your actual education.

Lol below. It's like a well trained parrot.
04:45pm 29/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26926 posts
It's a deep state conspiracy, a fake news conspiracy and it was the democrats all along.

edit: and also bubububububububut Obama.
04:45pm 29/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24598 posts


Hey infi cast your mind way back to law school. Do you recall any general observations about how hard crimes with an intention element are to prove?.


Yuu don't even need legal training. A casual observer can understand the concept just by comprehending the number of murder charges that get down graded by plea bargain to manslaughter in the nightly news.

That is, a casual observer who is not brainwashed. Trump Derangement Syndrome will cause you to ignore patently obvious facts though.
05:27pm 29/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26927 posts
Like the words of convicted liar George Papadopoulos?
05:31pm 29/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3956 posts
Oh yes convicted of lying about what precisely fpot? Always gets fuzzy on the deets this little legal eagle.

Yuu don't even need legal training. A casual observer can understand the concept just by comprehending the number of murder charges that get down graded by plea bargain to manslaughter in the nightly news.


So you'd say it's generally hard to prove intention? With your actually credentialed legal opinion?

So just to flesh the issue out a little. How would you go about *proving* some one *intended* to cover up a crime that *didn't happen*. Not just they're innocent of a crime. No crime happened at all.

How would you do that infi?
05:59pm 29/02/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24599 posts
The problem with proving an allegation of collusion is that the prosecution must prove Trump personally intended to cooperate with a foreign actor to an end which damages the United States. There needs to be a smoking gun. Beyond a reasonable doubt means there can be no ambiguity about the intention. There is no evidence showing any Campaign member attempted to collude. That's why there are no prosecutions. It's also why the FBI forged evidence. They were desperate. The entire process is now discredited.

This is very difficult considering the nature of politics and the international dealings required. One person's Corrupt firing of a A prosecutor is a other person's righteous stronggarming of a foreign power to further national interests. Its subjective.
07:16pm 29/02/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3957 posts
Yes but quite apart from collusion, which the Mueller report is empathetic *did not happen*, how would one prove obstruction of an investigation of collusion that didn't happen.

There are two separate intentional minds that have to be established here. Intention to collude but also intention to cover up collusion.

The first intention is impossible because factually no one colluded.

The second one has some pretty obvious obstacles to overcome. Namely how do you intend to "cover up" a crime that factually did not happen.

It's a bit like redhat with his "oh this old trope" when you point out renewables have major reliability problems. What he means oh this thing that totally destroys my argument so I will refuse to engage with it.
11:07pm 29/02/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26928 posts
From literal day one of the Mueller reports release I said that it did not contain sufficient evidence to charge anyone with any sort of criminal conspiracy, because it doesn't. You're doing that thing dumb people do where they invent a position for a person and then expect them to defend it.

However the Mueller report clearly demonstrated that -

1) Russia attacked the 2016 US Presidential Election
2) the trump campaign coordinated, assisted, met with, gave access to, helped, whatever word you want me to use. I'll again say, because you're thick as s***, that there was not enough evidence to charge anyone with criminal conspiracy
3) a major component of the attack was to assist with the election of trump for obvious reasons
4) trump committed crimes covering up the assistance he lent to the attack.

Since then he was also sought foreign interference in the current US Election. All of these things I just said are more or less indisputable unless you invent a whole bunch of conspiracy theories to counteract objective reality which you obviously are very willing to do.

You know what I reckon infi? I reckon you've forgotten what it's like to tell the truth, or to have the truth on your side. You're just in permanent defense mode. Only able to mindlessly parrot dumb conspiracy bulls*** that's been fed to you. If you were faced with some sort of situation where being honest and truthful actually benefited you you'd f*** it up and lie because that's all you know how to do.
07:46am 01/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39885 posts
Good article on how to prepare for coronavirus.

TLDR:

- go get the flu shot
- buy 1-2 weeks of shelf-stable food
- if you're on prescription medicines, go get them refilled now

The article explains why but a) this is just all obviously good advice under almost all circumstances anyway and b) the cost of it is basically zero, so you might as well save yourself some time and just go do it

(If my colleagues' experiences in HK is any indication I would also recommend grabbing some extra toilet paper)
09:07am 01/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3958 posts
Oh wait see this is the thing though fpot
You're doing that thing dumb people do where they invent a position for a person and then expect them to defend it.


You're doing this thing where you pretend a massive problem with your argument isn't really your argument.


2) the trump campaign coordinated, assisted, met with, gave access to, helped, whatever word you want me to use. I'll again say, because you're thick as s***, that there was not enough evidence to charge anyone with criminal conspiracy


The Mueller report doesn't say that. The Mueller report say no American knowingly coordinated with Russian efforts.

That very different. The way you say despite a 2 year $30 million investigation there might be more evidence out there. There is not and the report makes this crystal clear.

The reason that's a big problem is that
4) trump committed crimes covering up the assistance he lent to the attack.

This becomes impossible. You can't commit a crime covering up a non-crime.

And again you always refuse get specific don't you. How *exactly* did Trump help Russia. Because Jeff Sessions mentioning the election to the Russian ambassador at a state dinner is what actually happened.

You know what I reckon infi? I reckon you've forgotten what it's like to tell the truth, or to have the truth on your side. You're just in permanent defense mode. Only able to mindlessly parrot dumb conspiracy bulls*** that's been fed to you. If you were faced with some sort of situation where being honest and truthful actually benefited you you'd f*** it up and li


Keep in mind infi and I are talking about obstruction to his big long lecture of collusion is a red herring. But better yet. This is a non lawyer who is telling someone with a law degree they are dumb and can't tell the truth while *repeatedly* demonstrating he is incapable of understanding criminal intent.
11:00am 01/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
827 posts
You would struggle to brainwash a 5 year old as much as fpot has brainwashed himself regarding Russia collusion PP. Contrary to semi-popular conspiracy theories, his theory doesn't even have the evidence he says it does. It takes a special kind of mental deficiency to continue arguing a debunked conspiracy theory with debunked evidence to the people that did the debunking in the first place.
07:26pm 01/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1270 posts
fpot: Dumb people believe in conspiracies theories.

Writes pages about "I don't know why the Russians helped him. There must have been a reason".

Just tell the GP you think you have TDS and you want to see a psychologist. You won't be the first.
12:18am 02/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26929 posts
It's actually a combination of things and dumb is a very important one for sure, but gullibility, feeling of inferiority, irresponsibility, lack of emotional maturity and narcissism are all very important as well. It's just the right c***tail of disorders pushing and pulling at each other that cause people to recede into their safe little conspiracy shell. And I didn't write pages but the Special Counsel appointed to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 US election did and they found... well look four posts up. No need to repeat it so soon.
01:13am 02/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3959 posts
In all of this it's important to keep in mind that Trump has been getting more popular.

Fpot says he has sought further "foreign interference" in the 2020 election.

Trump is going to win the election in November. But he says only conspiracy nuts say his version of events is wrong.

But through impeachment Trump got more popular. The articles of impeachment didn't mention the Mueller report. So somehow Adam Schiff a Democrat prosecutor missed something fpot says is ironclad fact.

If it is such a smoking gun why didn't Schiff use it?

This is why fpot can't link to specific parts of the report. He has to do this instead and pretend people don't notice all he has is calling people dumb.

It's actually a combination of things and dumb is a very important one for sure, but gullibility, feeling of inferiority, irresponsibility, lack of emotional maturity and narcissism are all very important as well. It's just the right c***tail of disorders pushing and pulling at each other that cause people to recede into their safe little conspiracy shell.


The next 4 years of chicken little and his democracy will never recover crap are going to be entertaining.

The best part is that it's not even original. This is just what lefties have been doing since Reagan. Every Republican president is a "threat to democracy". What they mean is they lost.
06:32am 02/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6224 posts
This guy been saying Trump is getting more popular for years.

The constant 'hes gonna win again' sounds more like self soothing and trying to convince themselves than anything else.
05:33pm 02/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24600 posts

Imagine conducting a years long Special Investigation, based on surveillance warrants which used doctored evidence and fake dirt compiled by Russians, armed with a fleet of registered Democrat lawyer, hoping for collusion, and finding nothing. The entire machinery of the FBI and DoJ could not find anything to justify an impeachment.

And then when your lead investigator presents to the Senate he appears senile. What an epic fail. Yet people contort the debacle into proof of their conspiracy delusion.

Oh well let's ignore it and move on to Ukraine, we'll run with a bunch of hearsay, that should work. BZzzz. Trump gets acquitted and and his approval rating goes up. Fail after fail.

https://twitter.com/AntonyGreenABC/status/1233675597055807489

The way people on twitter throw around words like 'corrupt' and 'criminal', you're all lucky your anonymous. They are assertions, not findings of a court.


05:46pm 02/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26930 posts
Nah trump might win again. He's followers are energised by the realisation that he can do anything he wants without consequences and the Democrats will struggle to compete with that. Check out the one in a million dumb s*** above me as an example of what we're up against.
09:10pm 02/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3960 posts
Not just me vash. Go read trogs post.

Nah trump might win again. He's followers are energised by the realisation that he can do anything he wants without consequences and the Democrats will struggle to compete with that. Check out the one in a million dumb s*** above me as an example of what we're up against.


Don't forget "can get away with anything" in this context means policy decisions the guardian told the bouncer he doesn't like.

Also lol fpot doesn't realise you quoted Anthony Green there infi. I wonder if the ABC's head election expert falls in the basket of "one in a million dumb s****". The heady mixture of total certainty and total ignorance hits again eh?
10:10pm 02/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
828 posts
Imagine supporting immigrants from non-white countries so much that you review bomb their restaurant to f*** with their livelihood.
08:01am 03/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24601 posts
how good is democracy!
06:47pm 03/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3961 posts
Pfft silence sheeple.

Those are all fascists. Diane Abbott told me that winning elections is the oldest trick used by tinpot dictators.

Russia, chud. Piece of s***. Democracy will never recover. Crimes. Not true socialism. Literacy program.
07:36am 04/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3962 posts
So super Tuesday results are coming in.

Mike Bloomberg has won ....

Sorry it's pretty funny....

American Samoa. For a spend of $500,000,000.

But just to get it all in context.

Capitan "deep state conspiracy" believes this
1) Russia attacked the 2016 US Presidential Election


Decided the 2016 election in Trump's favour.

Russia spent $100,000 on digital advertising, and turned an election.

Mike Bloomberg spent $500,000,000 and won a small island in the Pacific.

I think it's pretty clear who the conspiracy theorist is.
02:36pm 04/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26931 posts
03:34pm 04/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24602 posts
CAPTION: black americans celebrating record low black unemployment
03:39pm 04/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26932 posts
He is the white savior we've all been waiting for! Another objective reality you deny is that trump inherited a strong economy from Obama and has pretty much just grifted his way along maintaining it.

I actually think that photo was taken after one of trump's get people to sit around the table and tell him how great he is sessions. After his disastrous round of coronavirus press conferences he needed it badly.
04:05pm 04/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24603 posts
i thought he was a racist? please explain.

I guess all those black americans are just Uncle Toms.
04:09pm 04/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26933 posts
Yeah he's racist. Just like you though he recognises the importance of putting on a non-racist facade which people either fall for or ignore for their own reasons.
04:13pm 04/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3963 posts
Another objective reality you deny is that trump inherited a strong economy from Obama and has pretty much just grifted his way along maintaining it.


Yep which is why the economy started picking right after Trump's tax cuts and deregulation but not during the 8 years of Obama's tenure.

*Objective reality*.

In any case, Trump can meet with black people and it only proves how racist he is in fpot's world.

Have you considered that those black people in the photo are all Putin in blackface infi?
04:21pm 04/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24604 posts
They are all Russia operatives. Part of an attempt to influence the 2020 election. And also these black Americans are racists because they support a racist president. Checkmate.
05:45pm 04/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26934 posts
I see we have entered the strawman phase of your capitulation.
05:57pm 04/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
829 posts
No, fpot, we have been in the mocking of fpot phase for a good year and a half I'd say.
06:05pm 04/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3964 posts
I see we have entered the strawman phase of your capitulation.


Ok Dave. Strawman.

Another objective reality you deny is that trump inherited a strong economy from Obama and has pretty much just grifted his way along maintaining it.


Are the Russians with you right now being racist fpot?

I actually think that photo was taken after one of trump's get people to sit around the table and tell him how great he is sessions. After his disastrous round of coronavirus press conferences he needed it badly.


You should be more careful to avoid mis-characterising the argument "trump makes black people praise him" to weaken it infi. It's fpots like totally valid opinion.
06:06pm 04/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26935 posts
When you say we you mean the two incel chuds and the dumb as s*** failson right?
06:07pm 04/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6225 posts
Hey hey guys, Obama's FBI fabricated all the evidence and theres noone in jail linked to Trump. There was no obstruction of justice or other crimes committed.
06:30pm 04/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3965 posts
Hey hey guys the guy whose never read a word of Marx but thinks true socialism has never been tried has an opinion on criminal liability.

Trump 2020 vs. Obama 2012 primary results:

NH: 129,696 / 49,080
OK: 273,562 / 64,389
MA: 207,495 / 127,909
TN: 324,119 / 80,705
VT: 33,863 / 40,247
AL: 690,381 / 241,167
TX: 1,584,661 / 520,410 (w/ 66% in)
NC: 704,328 / 766,077 (w/ 69% in)


The curb stomping that is coming for the democrats...
07:42pm 04/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1272 posts
They are all Russia operatives. Part of an attempt to influence the 2020 election. And also these black Americans are racists because they support a racist president. Checkmate.


hahaha

Looks like the geriatric socialist is too far wacko left to get the support to take on Trumpenreich.
10:43pm 04/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3966 posts
So I see fpot is over in the Seagate thread pretending to be human.

It's really is very entertaining to watch fpot puff his chest while being such an open and obvious sycophant. All that talk of trained doggy towards infi has a distinctly Freudian feel to it.

So I see on the news this morning Chuck Schumer threatened two judges of the Supreme Court. Earnt himself a rebuke from the chief justice in the process.

Given troggles cares *so deeply* about rule of law, I'm sure we will see a lengthy post here imminently about the effect on rule of law when a senate minority leader issues threats to judges because those judges aren't deciding cases according to his political objectives.

Or at least if we don't, that's one more opinion we need never take seriously again.
10:04am 05/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
830 posts


MSNBC math. NYT editor math. These are the people that fpot listens to.
10:01am 07/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1273 posts
I think the pathetic turnout on Super Tuesday for Bernie says a great deal about his supporters.

We want free stuff (study and health) but are not willing to get off our fat arse and go and vote for it.

Who can we blame so that we don't assume accountability for our s***** choices? Trump? Boomers? No, just laziness and entitlement.

Maybe fpot can chime in with a Russian bot conspiracy that stopped the Bernie supporters from voting?
12:32pm 07/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26937 posts
You know I don't think I'll ever get sick of conspiracy numpties posting things and going omg this is teh fpot despite it being something I may have scrolled past on twitter a few times. Imagine having so little to attack me on you'd resort to such a thing. Oh well at least they're trying.
04:08pm 07/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3967 posts
Well yes there is so little to attack fpot on because he's been right about everything. Except:

  • nuclear war with north korea

  • nuclear war with Russia over syria

  • genocide of Kurds in syria

  • war with Iran over Suleimani

  • the outcome of the Mueller investigation

  • the outcome of the impeachment trial

  • Kamela Harris would be the Democrat nominee (that's a good one)



So other than being wrong on basically every important point for the last four years, there is nothing to attack fpot on.
06:22pm 07/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6226 posts
this guy is trying too hard. he might have a little crush on fpot.
07:30pm 07/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26938 posts
Nah it's just a malignant narcissist desperately trying to be heard because his disorder tricks him into thinking he has worthwhile things to say.
07:35pm 07/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24605 posts
It's good to keep a wiki of the fail. Handy.
07:57pm 07/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26939 posts
Someone's already keeping a wiki of yours. It's called Wikipedia.
08:25pm 07/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6227 posts
Wikipedia? Psh. they're in bed with the communists. Did you hear? Coronavirus is a chinese/democrat invention to bring down the Trump administration.
08:37pm 07/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26940 posts
Wikipedia? Psh. they're in bed with the communists.
Knowledge distribution.
08:59pm 07/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3968 posts
Nah it's just a malignant narcissist desperately trying to be heard because his disorder tricks him into thinking he has worthwhile things to say.


Tell yourself what you have to fpot.

The perpetual chicken little routine has been entertaining.

As for vash. You just suck at insults don't you little fella,like most of everything else so I guess it's of a piece.

Read Marx yet?

One for all our betters who inform themselves via the guardian.

Here is how the "anti-racist" guardian chooses to portray a Indian woman they don't like.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2TfYpsL/ESirhy3-UMAEZha5.jpg
09:02am 08/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1274 posts
desperately trying to be heard
26939 posts


fpot is projection.
12:39pm 08/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2354 posts
03:09pm 08/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
831 posts
I predicted 6-odd months ago that Biden would be the nominee despite Tulsi Gabbard being far more electable. Biden then started rambling incoherently and I genuinely thought I had completely f***ed up that prediction. Imagine my shock when the DNC defies anything that can be remotely considered logical and throws itself behind Biden purely to keep Bernie off the nomination.

The pressure Biden will experience debating Trump will produce the biggest gaffes history has ever seen from a presidential candidate.

2020 is going to be great.
08:14pm 08/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2355 posts
11:59am 09/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6228 posts
I predicted 6-odd months ago that Biden would be the nominee


whoa hold up, we got another nostradamus over here.

biggest gaffes history has ever seen from a presidential candidate.


That position has already been filled and couldn't be topped.
02:52pm 09/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3969 posts
Aw someone's upset Bernie's never going to be President.

Don't you have some women to harrass on Twitter?
05:40pm 09/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1275 posts
That position has already been filled and couldn't be topped.


Yah Bernie handing the mic over to the black rights woman years ago was unbeatable.

How much will Biden fumble during the Trump debate.. that could be beat it.
09:00pm 09/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
832 posts
The difference is Vash if Biden ends up being beat by Bernie I won't have a problem admitting I was wrong.

Unlike you with communism and fpot with Russian collusion.

In other news, Tulsi met the requirements for attending future Democrat debates, so the DNC changed the rules. Trump is heaps corrupt though so let's focus on him and his already confirmed absolution.
08:49am 10/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26941 posts
The difference is Vash if Biden ends up being beat by Bernie I won't have a problem admitting I was wrong.
Awww, how very brave of you. You'll admit your 'prediction' which you're just posting about now is wrong. A convenient little concession in an attempt to prove you're human and not just basement fungus. Such an inspiration to the other incel chuds.
10:32am 10/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6229 posts
On corruption.
let me know when you decide to admit you're wrong dazed.
11:16am 10/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3970 posts
Awww, how very brave of you. You'll admit your 'prediction' which you're just posting about now is wrong. A convenient little concession in an attempt to prove you're human and not just basement fungus. Such an inspiration to the other incel chuds.


I'm sure we will see something about Kamarla Harris' run from fpot any second now.

On corruption.


Oh but I'm reliably informed that drawing attention to personal enrichment while on state business is an impeachable "abuse of power" vash.
It will be entertaining to watch the NYT memory hole burisma for the next 6 months while crying corruption.
11:25am 10/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
833 posts
If we needed further evidence of how utterly toxic Hillary was as a candidate, we just got it. Biden the senile old coot beat Vash's fave Bernie in Michigan. I guess the proletariat isn't so fond of communism after all.

Wow the Democratic party is a mess. I expect this to start from Sleepy Joe about 5 minutes into the first debate with Trump, if he even turns up.

02:48pm 11/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6230 posts

Two senile guys battling it out in debate is going to be good viewing at least. Not so good for America, and glad i live in Communist Australia, going by your definition of it.

In other news, ASIO released their latest report on terrorism.

Right-wing extremism has been in ASIO’s sights for some time, but obviously this threat came into sharp, terrible focus last year in New Zealand.

In Australia, the extreme right wing threat is real and it is growing. In suburbs around Australia, small cells regularly meet to salute Nazi flags, inspect weapons, train in combat and share their hateful ideology.

These groups are more organised and security conscious than they were in previous years.

We continue to see some Australian extremists seeking to connect with like-minded individuals in other parts of the world, sometimes in person. They are not merely seeking to share ideology and tactics.

Earlier this year, ASIO advice led to an Australian being stopped from leaving the country to fight with an extreme right wing group on a foreign battlefield.

While these are small in number at this time in comparison to what we saw with foreign fighters heading to the Middle East, any development like this is very concerning.

Meanwhile, extreme right wing online forums such as The Base proliferate on the internet, and attract international memberships, including from Australians. These online forums share and promote extremist right wing ideologies, and encourage and justify acts of extreme violence.

We expect such groups will remain an enduring threat, making more use of on-line propaganda to spread their messages of hate.

While we would expect any right wing extremist inspired attack in Australia to be low capability, i.e. a knife, gun or vehicle attack, more sophisticated attacks are possible. And we also need to be mindful of state-sponsored terrorism as states seek to use terrorism to further their goals.
https://www.asio.gov.au/director-generals-annual-threat-assessment.html
04:03pm 11/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3971 posts
Oh vash.

Poor little boy was wrong just like I said. Trump will inspire a Bernie inspired socialist take over. Imagine how deeply stewing in propaganda you'd have to be to think Americans, yeah Americans are going to go for massive new middle class taxes to pay for health care for illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile the paragraphs before the above quote mine from ASIO.

Violent Islamic extremism of the type embodied by the Islamic State and al’Qaida and their off-shoots will remain our principal concern.

Tens of thousands of Islamic extremists travelled to the Middle East to join AQ aligned groups and ISIL, including from countries which weren’t previously known as sources of Islamic extremists. And as we all know Australians joined that movement.

There are now more Islamic extremists from more countries active in more places than ever before.


Your ability to take exactly the wrong message from plain language never ceases to amaze.
06:25pm 11/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6231 posts
If you ever wonder why you're ignored, read your post again. The wrong message, or one you dont want to see? Reality check time, PP.
07:45pm 11/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3972 posts
Self own in a sentence fragment. Well played not even full sentences now.

It is just so transparent how desperately you want right wing terrorism to be a thing.

Wake me up when he says *tens of thousands* nazis are traveling to Germany to train to be shock troops as opposed to posting on forums numbnuts.

I know it must be upsetting to be experiencing such a brutal reality check that *democrat voters* are telling your boy to go f*** himself en masse.
07:57pm 11/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6232 posts
Jeez you get really stirred up when the idea of right wing terrorism is brought up. Here its easy. Right wing terrorism is bad, Islamic state bad, antifa terrorism is also bad. The latter being nowhere mentioned in the ASIO report. And you somehow think its important to bring up Islamic state as a ludicrous attempt at thinking the 'left' ally with them. Islamic state has been an issue for years, and its no bruise on your ego to admit that far right extremism is also a growing problem everywhere.
09:49pm 11/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26943 posts
Unless of course there was some sort of reason to take the mere mention of right-wing terrorism personally. But that couldn't be. That's the stoic voice of centrist reason and/or Chief Cleric and Protector of the MAGA faith. Depends what day it is. From what I can remember anyway.

What we have at the moment is an impeached moron in charge of a potential crisis so large that literally a million plus people could die. The impeached moron barely even acknowledges the problem, and instead thinks that's it's a deep state and fake news conspiracy to damage the economy because apparently that's the only way to get to trump. When I mentioned it earlier I knew all the regular stuff would happen - test kits f***ed, everybody saying different things, allegations of trump and cronies profiting while they can,etc, but I never could imagine they'd decide to triple down on the conspiracy.

I'm about to find out why. Because trump's followers are dumb enough to believe it. They're about to own me with their facts.
10:27pm 11/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3973 posts
Jeez you get really stirred up when the idea of right wing terrorism is brought up. Here its easy. Right wing terrorism is bad, Islamic state bad, antifa terrorism is also bad. The latter being nowhere mentioned in the ASIO report. And you somehow think its important to bring up Islamic state as a ludicrous attempt at thinking the 'left' ally with them.


If it's so easy to condemn all forms of terrorism, how is it you somehow you managed to skip over the part of the report where *tens of thousands* of people are traveling to foreign battlefields described in plain language as the *principal* threat and go straight to the part where there are naughty forums we should get super worried about? Tell me how many sitting members of Congress have been shot by right wing terrorists? Cause a Bernie bro shot some.

You are desperately trying draw a false equivalence because now your boy has been thumped *again* by his his most sympathetic audience you have to pretend the sheeple are being conned into the fourth riech.

What we have at the moment is an impeached moron in charge of a potential crisis so large that literally a million plus people could die. The impeached moron barely even acknowledges the problem, and instead thinks that's it's a deep state and fake news conspiracy to damage the economy because apparently that's the only way to get to trum


Yeah so remember three weeks ago when he put travel bans in place it was racist because it was just a flu?

It must be painful to have your strings yanked so hard every few weeks the talking points fall out of your head.

You reckon the guy really concerned with facts will acknowledge the fact he said millions will die when they don't?
06:53am 12/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24606 posts
What a sad situation. The official Democrat candidate is going to have dementia. This is just tormenting a person in decline.
05:48pm 12/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3974 posts
Somewhat ironic after all the 25th amendment lip flapping that has happened in the last 4 years.
06:32pm 12/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26945 posts
You'd have to be so incredibly stupid to think that either trump or Biden have dementia. The only way you could possibly be stupider is if you spent a lot of time sitting in dad's office at his old folks home and still think that way despite presumably having some first hand experience.
07:08pm 12/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24607 posts
You'd have to be incredibly ignorant, maybe willfully, to think that Biden is all there. Trump is going to eviscerate him in debates.

You should tour my services fpot. They are first class. Dad hasn't run the businesses for 15 years. But do go on. Haha!
07:19pm 12/03/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41430 posts
i am f*****g outraged at the australian government and their f*****g stimulus packages.

WHAT A WASTE OF OUR TAX PAYERS MONEYS!!!!
07:28pm 12/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3975 posts
Oh but infi challenging voters to pushup competitions is 4000D chess.

It is interesting to watch the gold fish memory in action.
Fpot
You'd have to be so incredibly stupid to think that either trump or Biden have dementia

Also fpot.
If I were to say just one thing it would be that by weakening the US they've also weakened her allies and hence NATO. Major nations like Germany, France the UK etc can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position.


What do you think "rational" means in this context?
07:34pm 12/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24608 posts
The stimulus will achieve nothing... Just pulling levers because that's what the media expects.
07:43pm 12/03/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41431 posts
pokie owners and bottlo owners will be pumped!
07:43pm 12/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26946 posts
You'd have to be incredibly ignorant, maybe willfully, to think that Biden is all there. Trump is going to eviscerate him in debates.
It's a last ditch attempt by a desperate GOP to smear the candidate they most fear running against. trump fears him so much that he took a great risk in seeking foreign interference with his campaign.

When trump can talk properly in front of a camera with no opposition I'll start to believe he'll do well in debates. They aren't going to be very interesting. It's just going to be Biden listing all the crimes trump has committed while in office and trump denying them.
07:47pm 12/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3976 posts
It's a last ditch attempt by a desperate GOP to smear the candidate they most fear running against. trump fears him so much that he took a great risk in seeking foreign interference with his campaign.


Haha. When reality hits him in the face like a brick in November it's going to be glorious.
08:43pm 12/03/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41432 posts
looks like Drumpf did a good job announcing his travel bans in the states.

oh wait, no, the other thing.
08:06am 13/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
834 posts
When trump can talk properly in front of a camera with no opposition I'll start to believe he'll do well in debates. They aren't going to be very interesting. It's just going to be Biden listing all the crimes trump has committed while in office and trump denying them.


The premise of using evidence based argument fpot is that the evidence is generally accepted as valid. Your evidence, on the other hand, is categorically invalid. Keep using it though, conspiracy numpty.
08:24am 13/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3977 posts
pokie owners and bottlo owners will be pumped!


Get out there and do your patriotic duty spook. One Cooper's pale ale at a time. The thing knows I will be.
09:14am 13/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26947 posts
looks like Drumpf did a good job announcing his travel bans in the states.
10:30am 13/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2356 posts


Get out there and do your patriotic duty spook. One Cooper's pale ale at a time. The thing knows I will be.
https://i.imgur.com/PmKBfQe.jpg
03:46pm 13/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3978 posts
Think of the economy in this difficult time. We can do this.
04:08pm 13/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6233 posts
If you're a fan of coronas, they're half price in various places. For whatever reason.
04:40pm 13/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39889 posts
If you're a fan of coronas, they're half price in various places. For whatever reason.
because it is bad beer
11:02pm 13/03/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41433 posts
im more of a coopers red guy.
JUST COZ BAD ASS.
06:57am 14/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3979 posts
Pfft communist.
01:21pm 14/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6234 posts
07:13pm 14/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2357 posts
im more of a coopers red guy.
JUST COZ BAD ASS.


Aye, we'll keep the red flag flying here.

09:38pm 14/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
835 posts
Yeah Vash Italy's single payer health system is going great guns compared to the US where they're now deciding who gets to die because their open borders and overwhelmed hospitals are capitulating.

As usual Vash proves the exact point he moronically tries to discredit.
12:55pm 16/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26949 posts
A fragmented non-functioning health system where people die from easily curable diseases on a regular basis and crowded, panicked airports because someone can't even get a speech right is surely the answer.
01:27pm 16/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3980 posts
Of course the other option is a senile crackpot who is too busy calling practical and expert recommended measures racist to coordinate a response.

Looking forward to updating the wiki of fpot chicken little disasters that didn't pan out.

Millions will die!
01:33pm 16/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1276 posts
I'd like to see Trump win again but Bernie would be entertaining. Bernie would need a couple of terms to destroy the place properly though. Biden is a bit boring.
06:06pm 17/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6235 posts
Apparently millions would die if bernie got in.
A hysterical thought, considering his policies would prevent death.
08:34pm 17/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24609 posts
Just like they did in all other socialist regimes. *rolls eyes*
08:47pm 17/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6236 posts
Tell me what bernie would do if he became president infi. Seize the means of production?
08:57pm 17/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3981 posts
Bernie "I'm not an expert on the economy of Sweden (but you should trust me to implement Swedish socialism)" Sanders.

Just so salty. Trump is going to spark a socialist uprising. Good one vash.

Tell me what bernie would do if he became president infi. Seize the means of production?


We don't need to worry because it will never happen.
08:58pm 17/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24610 posts
tbh I am not even worried if he were to win. He hasn''t achieved anything so far as a career politician and he wouldn't start as President. He reminds me of the socialist dips**** in PT105 - Introduction to Political Ideology.

But dude, saying socialism hasn't killed millions is showing your ignorance.
09:05pm 17/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6237 posts
Bernie is but a simple social democrat. his politics are more closely aligned with the LNP than anything close to the Socialism you think you're educated on. He's for implementing a Medicare like system we enjoy here, with more coverage. Sounds good for Americans.
09:17pm 17/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3982 posts
Vash is here to school you infi on *real* socialism. Bernie is not a socialist in the way all those failed ways, which is why he praised each and every one of those failed socialist states until they were a disaster.

But really all he just wants to ban private health insurance just like in Australia.

Which is probably news to Medibank private, nib, Bupa, HCF, HBF, Australian unity, gmhba.

I for one always think I'm seeing double when I look at scomo and Bernie's policies.
07:44am 18/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39893 posts
kind of boring conversation but
saying socialism hasn't killed millions is showing your ignorance.
don't your arms get tired erecting all these strawmen
09:19am 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3983 posts
Do you?

Is there some doubt the holodomor was caused by socialism?
What about the cultural revolution?

There is tens of millions in those two events alone.

How about the great leap forward?
Or the Cambodian killing fields?

Tens of millions more.

Bernie Sanders is a *self described* Marxist.

You're right about one thing. It is boring to listen to people deny politicians are what the are by their own *life long description*. At this point Sanders could staple a postit to his forehead with "I'm a socialist" on it and you'd still cry strawman.

Here is a point that won't ever get a rebuttal.

He reminds me of the socialist dips**** in PT105 - Introduction to Political Ideology.


If Sanders isn't a Marxist why is key demographic idiot white middle class college students doing PT105?

Sanders was *this year* saying Cuba's literacy program was good, as though getting literacy from 80% to 90% was worth Castro's reign of terror.
09:31am 18/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26950 posts
Muscle memory helps prevent tiredness.
09:59am 18/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24611 posts
don't your arms get tired erecting all these strawmen


vash and bernie love everythnig about socialism except the kliling. that's bad and should DEFINITELY NOT HAPPEN. besides it's not in Marx's book.
10:10am 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3984 posts
Unless you provide a literacy program to 10% of the population. Then killing people is "complicated".
11:24am 18/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39895 posts
well in this context I would note that you are the one that brought up both socialism and killing - we are talking about healthcare (edit: well not we, 'they')

we are talking about the kind of socialism that literally saves lives - government-run healthcare (recent NPR podcast on the US healthcare system is interesting, tldr it's way more expensive and results in earlier deaths for US citizens... but that's been obvious for years

I get you have always thought government healthcare is "socialism" though.

some questions to help try to understand how you define "socialism" (arguably the most annoying word of the current era, only very slightly in front of 'capitalism', 'left' and 'right')

- does injecting liquidity into the stock market count as socialism?
- does stimulus to citizens count as socialism?
- does interest-free emergency loans to small business count as socialism?
- does specific bailouts to companies in core industries count as socialism?
- does specific bailouts to companies in non-core industries count as socialism?
- what non-socialism things can governments do to protect citizens and the economy from massive disruption?
11:39am 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3985 posts
well in this context I would note that you are the one that brought up both socialism and killing - we are talking about healthcare (edit: well not we, 'they')


Well it was vash actually but you know no biggie.

For all the faults with the American system it still manages to produce more than half of the world's new drugs. So it would be interesting to see what the figures look like when you start adding drug development costs into the mix.

But more importantly, no developed economy has a health system that is like what Sanders is proposing.

But seeing as we like accusing people of rhetorical fallacies while lobbing a bunch of boneheaded false dichotomies out here's my entry.

Is coordinated action between any group of two or more people socialism?

Because speaking of boring hearing trog comeback with any collective action taken in any context by government is something a non socialist should oppose is pretty tried and true.
12:24pm 18/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24612 posts
we are talking about the kind of socialism that literally saves lives


I don't consider government-run healthcare to be socialism. Many open market economies have government run healthcare and it is government's obligation to provide a safety net to its citizens.

It is best to go back to the first principles of socialism/communism, refer to Marx. Socialism/communism believes that capitalists are evil and keep the workers oppressed as means of cheap labour for their factories. The only way to address this is to abandon the concept of private property and seize the means of production so that they are instead run by the workers for the benefit of everyone.

Now, this is actually what Bernie Sanders believes and supports, he is a big fan of Cuba and the USSR, he pines for the good old days. As to how he can practically achieve these aims in America, he has no chance, given the nature of Congress and his own limited Democratic congressional base. But he advocates helicopter money, mass forgiveness of all student loan debt, punitive tax rates of 90% for the rich. The thing with such obscene government policy is that inevitably it involves enforcement by gunpoint and the visceral hatred of capital owners by the new power structure provides an opportune time for reprisals. America's strong constitutional values and culture of freedom will ultimately repudiate Bernie. Less robust cultures embrace socialist tyrants with ease, seduced by the absurd notion of free everything.

- does injecting liquidity into the stock market count as socialism?
- does stimulus to citizens count as socialism?
- does interest-free emergency loans to small business count as socialism?
- does specific bailouts to companies in core industries count as socialism?
- does specific bailouts to companies in non-core industries count as socialism?
- what non-socialism things can governments do to protect citizens and the economy from massive disruption?


Once you appreciate the difference between "seizing the means of production through revolution" and state involvement in essential services, these questions answer themselves. Why shouldn't a government maintain an essential service that to fail would cause a break down in law and order? It just makes sense that if a government is offering up bailout money to an airline or essential goods manufacturer, they get a slice of equity as well. The entire society benefit. The workers sure as s*** would not be able to run it.

I'm not a fan of any government liquidity measures. Liquidity failures are what allow buyers to get discounts as a reward because they saved. Conversely, stimulus rewards the person who didn't save anything. Remove the moral hazard and people make dumber and dumber decisions collectively.
01:14pm 18/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
836 posts
kind of boring conversation but don't your arms get tired erecting all these strawmen


Hey PP here we have socialists pretending social democracy and socialism are functionally different. That way they can pretend to be smart and call you out on a strawman purely based on semantics.

And I'm pretty sure government healthcare that imposes anti-capitalist regulation on private healthcare is absolutely a great definition of socialist healthcare. Medicare and Medicaid in the US are absolutely gargantuan government run healthcare programs that didn't exist pre 1960s that socialists seem to ignore when they bang on about how private healthcare is a disaster. Take a look at the budget for those programs. It's about 1/3 of total healthcare expenditure in the US.

Now tell me how the US needs more government intervention to fix their healthcare system.

I think the funniest part of it all is the fact that leftists want government to be completely (or near completely) in control of healthcare whilst simultaneously thinking elected officials like Trump are the worst people ever and should never have control of anything important. Mind bogglingly retarded.
02:03pm 18/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39896 posts
how come the institutions of America are strong enough to stop Bernie getting in because reasons, but they're not strong enough to stop Bernie "seizing the means of production through revolution" if he became president?

you are talking about Sanders like he is an actual communist/socialist; I've never met the dude(my aunt in the US has) but there's nothing in his policy positions that indicate he's going to be "seizing the means of production through revolution" in the unlikely event he's voted in. the level of evidence it would take to prove to me that he's an actual socialist with a goal of "seizing the means of production through revolution" I don't think is particularly high but I have to consider the policy positions on his website

the fear of taxing high net worths and negatively impacting predatory businesses you have would be way more funny if you lived in a different country where I could cheerfully argue about it and then ignore the consequences, but I guess you feel the same about me

edit: I am not a Bernie fan particularly though I think he'd have a slight chance this year, if he survives (literally and politically, which both seem unlikely). I would rather Warren but I am glad she opted out early and I hope she has a crack in 4 years
03:19pm 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3986 posts
Can some one invite trog to do a quick word search for "nationalise" in Bernie's policy platform.

Perhaps also do a cursory search for self identified communist countries Bernie hasn't defended, or minimised their human rights abuses.

I would rather Warren but I am glad she opted out early and I hope she has a crack in 4 years


Remember the time trog said this about Trump
when the leader of the country has that kind of relationship with the truth, do you think the other people in his administration are going to be more or less trustworthy? when they can see him lying literally all the time, getting called out on it, but then nothing happens


I wonder if we can expect to see some deep self examination of saying this and wanting a woman who systematically lied about being Native American to get affirmative action hires for over 30 years to be president.

Or maybe he thinks giving children a veto over cabinet picks is an intelligent thing to do.
03:53pm 18/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6238 posts
The Obama Government supposedly were also communist since they nationalized some companies in 2008. This gets funny prodding what they think Socialism is.
05:14pm 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3987 posts
Yep it is funny watching vash fail to distinguish between things.

For example, bailing out banks which did not transfer ownership of the banks to the state (and was condemned by infi at the time and continues to be) and nationalising the *energy* sector under Bernie.

Or like the army killing domestic civilians during protests and the aggregate number of police shootings.
05:32pm 18/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6239 posts
Energy was nationalised here not that long ago. The sky didnt fall, millions didnt die.
Come back to me when you find reason Bernie would nationalize all private industry, then maybe he could be claimed to be a Socialist.
08:42pm 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3988 posts
The entire energy sector was never nationalised in Australia vash.

Bernie doesn't only want to nationalise the energy sector.

Come back to me when you know what:
energy sector;
nationalise; and
socialism mean.

Hehe below, in which vash proves he doesn't understand the meaning of energy sector; nationalise; or socialism.
09:22pm 18/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6240 posts
You know that Socialism is nationalization of all private industry right?
Not just infrastructure.
09:26pm 18/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3989 posts
What I love about watching vash disassemble is the layers of ignorance you can savour along the way.

So far he has wrongly said Obama nationalised companies in 2008. Wrongly said the Australian energy sector was nationalised. Wrongly characterised the energy sector (because in a continuing trend of failing to distinguish things he very obviously and wrongly thinks energy = electricity). Wrongly thinks the energy sector is only infrastructure. And for the grand finale is wrongly saying anything short of the total immediate nationalisation of the entire economy isn't socialism.

And because Sanders "only" wants to nationalise healthcare, finance and banking, energy and transport he is just like the Australian LNP who have a 30 year record of privatisation. Sanders is practically Thatcher when you think about it.

I mean there's stupid. And then there is vash.
06:51am 19/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24613 posts
It's that level of stupidity, but on a mass scale, that gets socialists elected!!
09:00am 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3990 posts
I wonder if there is some kind of connection between "might possibly be a communist but we can't really tell from 50 straight years of self identification" Bernie praising communist Cuba and losing Florida by 40 points?

Probably voter suppression Russian fox news.
09:47am 19/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39898 posts
It's that level of stupidity, but on a mass scale, that gets socialists elected!!
if you don't want socialists to get elected, then your absolute first priority should be to prevent the forming of Aristocracy 2.0, getting us back to the point where we have a nice big fat lazy middle class

I wouldn't worry about it though, under your definition of socialist from above it sounds like zero of them are running anywhere outside of the absolute fringe parties. the worst case seems to be people like Sanders and Warren who want to simply tax the rich more... but it sounds like we agree that isn't socialism (I think it's necessary, you think it's terrible)

lucky money is free forever now that we're in this crisis though!
10:06am 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3991 posts
I wouldn't worry about it though, under your definition of socialist from above it sounds like zero of them are running anywhere outside of the absolute fringe parties. the worst case seems to be people like Sanders and Warren who want to simply tax the rich more


It's funny because Warren captured less than 14% of the democrats primary vote. Sounds a bit fringe to me.

I guess all 14 people convinced by her policies must be really upset.

But perhaps a deeper problem might be
if you don't want socialists to get elected, then your absolute first priority should be to prevent the forming of Aristocracy 2.0


The fact that she is loved by the let em drive Tesla's crowd might be some kind of clue to her seriousness on that issue.
10:56am 19/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24614 posts
if you don't want socialists to get elected, then your absolute first priority should be to prevent the forming of Aristocracy 2.0


there will always be a 1% and (spoiler) when the pigs lead the revolution they become the 1%.

why must there be a 1%? because they are the capital holders (including giant super funds, ETFs and mutual funds) generating jobs for everyone else, and paying the tax.

and any time the govt decides to tax the s*** out of the 1%, the 1% leave and the economy is f***ed.

better to grow the 100%.
11:47am 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3992 posts
The simpler question I think infi is if all Bernie and Warren et al want to do is create the sweet sweet Swedish socialism we hear so much about, what is the explanation for imposing a wealth tax in the States when Sweden ditched theirs in the 80s/90s because it was cumbersome to administer and raised f*** all revenue (and specifically nothing like enough to pay for a generous social welfare system)?
12:51pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6241 posts
Ah yes, these rich people will leave the country if you try to tax them more. And if you dont cut their taxes like they ask.
Or bail them out with 100s of billions each time the stockmarket crashes.

The USA wealth gap is woeful for a country as wealthy as it is, and with only 10 million people in Sweden, obviously a wealth tax is not going to be effective.
03:44pm 19/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24616 posts
This will warm Vash's heart.

Macquarie Wealth Management, an arm of the beating heart of Australian capitalism, Macquarie Group, has warned that “conventional capitalism is dying” and the world is headed for “something that will be closer to a version of communism”.

In a series of notes sent to investors on Wednesday, Macquarie analysts and researchers said a number of policies announced overnight, including cash payments to US residents, credit guarantees for businesses in Germany, and a Swedish stimulus worth 6 per cent of the Nordic country’s economy to keep banks lending to companies, were a sign that governments were shifting towards “neo-Keynesian” and Modern Monetary Theory policies, including a universal basic income guarantee.

The European Central Bank also announced a €750 billion asset purchase program as President Christine Lagarde said “extraordinary times require extraordinary action” and that there would be “no limits” on the central bank’s commitment to protecting the single-currency union. Across two notes, titled “A world of no historical parallels –- Making up rules & policies as we go” and ‘Tear at the fabric: Glimpses of the future are here for all to see”, Macquarie Wealth analysts said the shift towards a more fundamental change in the way the economy functioned was evidenced by the way central banks and governments “belatedly recognised” that copying the policy responses of the global financial crises a decade ago were “not going to be enough”.

The US is expected to announce a stimulus plan worth close to $US1 trillion, while Scott Morrison has been forced to return to the drawing board after realising the initial $17.6 billion support program would do little to stave of destruction of the Australian economy. “We have been arguing that conventional capitalism is dying, or at least mutating into something that will be closer to a version of communism,” Macquarie analysts wrote.
03:48pm 19/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26954 posts
It will be back shortly after this is all over until it blunders into its next catastrophe and needs to be bailed out again.
03:57pm 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3993 posts
The USA wealth gap is woeful for a country as wealthy as it is, and with only 10 million people in Sweden, obviously a wealth tax is not going to be effective.


The problem being that the super wealthy couldn't provide for 10 million people, vash concludes they will definitely be able to provide for 350 million people. *Amazing*. Champagne comedy.
04:37pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1277 posts
Wah wah wah.. the 1% They cause my problems. I am not responsible. It's the nasty1%.
05:35pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6242 posts
called it years ago. Capitalism is on its last legs, it cant deal with critical issues like a pandemic, climate change, or automation replacing jobs . The world's governments are already dangerously in debt trying to keep it afloat, there isnt much more room to provide stimulus.
06:03pm 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3994 posts
Except hyper capitalist Singapore is handling it way better than China.

Don't worry little fella we know you don't play well with facts.
06:52pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6243 posts
Heh. read Marx yet?
Its funny when you're projecting. Tell us more about what you think you know on Socialism/Communism. China with its market economy surely is communist.
08:33pm 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3995 posts
Have you vash? Have you? We know you haven't and never will. You regurgitate r/latestagecapitalism.

You're the one who claims the deep understanding. China a free market economy. Good one.
08:43pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6244 posts
Yes. i have. Thats why its so obvious you dont have a clue what you're talking about. China is a market based economy with nationalization of certain assets like many european nations.
08:46pm 19/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24617 posts
dude they don't have a floating currency, there's no free movement of people, every new business must be approved by the CCP. you don't know s***.
08:54pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6245 posts
Right, and that has anything to do with Socialism/Communism, how, exactly Infi?
09:03pm 19/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24618 posts
you said China is a free market. It's not. It's an authoritarian Communist regime.
09:16pm 19/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6246 posts
Im wasting my time here lol. Infi, go read a book.
09:22pm 19/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3996 posts
Yes. i have. Thats why its so obvious you dont have a clue what you're talking about. China is a market based economy with nationalization of certain assets like many european nations.


Why lie? China is just like many European nations. Which ones little fella?

Im wasting my time here lol. Infi, go read a book.

Bless your cotton socks.

His parents would have sent him to school but they said it was a waste of tax payer money.
09:47pm 19/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39899 posts
there will always be a 1%
yes but... that is just because that's how maths works. the issue is about how much wealth as a percentage of the total is at the top end - i.e., not that there is a 1%/there will always[1] be someone with more money, but the fact that /within/ that 1%, there is a huge disparity, literally tens of billions of dollars of individual wealth, just at the pointy end

it is perfectly possible to have an extremely staggeringly wealthy "top 1%" without them being an effective aristocracy that controls a significant chunk of the wealth
when the pigs lead the revolution they become the 1%.
again with the revolution talk! why are you so worried about a revolution?!@ do you perceive a great injustice?!
why must there be a 1%? because they are the capital holders (including giant super funds, ETFs and mutual funds) generating jobs for everyone else, and paying the tax.
ok well there /must/ be a 1% because of maths :) I am sure you know this but I think it's important to get our definitions out of the way because there are probably people out there who don't realise that "getting rid of the 1%" doesn't mean s***; the current top 1% could evaporate today and then there'd just be a new 1% to replace them. (I bet all the people out of work or on reduced work at the moment are champing at the bit for the current "job creators" to just start making all them jobs.)

for me, it is about trying to get the distribution curve of wealth ownership amongst citizens (not the entities that you refer to; they are a separate issue) closer to a normal distribution, instead of one where the majority of wealth is stacked up on the right hand side of the graph, where it will (as has been happening) just continue to re-enforce and grow.

The things that are companies or entities, not people, are a different issue that needs addressing differently (international tax laws are f***ed (and IIRC even you agree that is the case), companies offshoring to avoid tax is a bane on society and obviously does nothing useful because when the s*** hits the fan they have zero resilience because the money has been pissed away on share buybacks, executive compensation and accountants, which is exactly where we are now.
and any time the govt decides to tax the s*** out of the 1%, the 1% leave and the economy is f***ed.
this is the "oh I guess we should just let them do whatever they want then" argument. maybe while we're figuring out what to do with the current crop of billionaire wastrels we can stop making any more of them?

but yes we wouldn't want the economy to be f***ed - [looks around] uh oh. now we have no reserves because taxes were cut, none of the usual tools can have any impact because we can't cut interest rates any more without literally making them negative, and we're literally printing money for the first time ever. All the "too big to fail" companies have once again run up right to the precipice of disaster and now are sitting around with this f*****g smug expression on their metaphorical phases and their hands out waiting to be saved by the taxpayers again. (I just read US deficit is predicted to jump from 1T to 1.5T just because of this crisis)

It f*****g s**** me because I think they're right and the costs of doing nothing and letting them fail probably are too great, in the short term, when compared with the alternative. Because we don't have a framework from which to judge the impact of the failure of a company like, say, Qantas.

There are a lot of armchair economists out there now listing all the conditions for bailout (many just paraphrased/stolen from E. Warren's list); I don't know what, if any, of them are useful, but I would guess none of them will be applied anyway. What is the point of having a share market with these giant companies in it if there is never any real downside?

[1] ok in the interest of maths accuracy, there's one person who ,at any point in time, might have the most wealth
09:18am 20/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39900 posts
you said China is a free market
did he though?

my read is that you have both said things that are pretty much true edit: about China, specifically
09:33am 20/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3997 posts
did he though?
China with its market economy surely is communist.


See this is a fairly eloquent demonstration of the problem the left is having in general at the moment. And I'd go so far as to say it is driving the Trump phenomenon.

Let's take trog as the standard for a generally well educated reasonably informed middle of the road left wing person.

For infi, the responses are slightly civil but usually carry a strong tone of condescension (often on subjects where infi's education would entitle him to ignore trog, have you ever once seen infi argue about setting up a data centre with trog?) and often refuse engage with his points.

But he will bend over backwards to paint the most positive spin on the words of a dribbling retard so obviously rooted in deep ignorance of the subject he is talking about, because he on his side.

You can seem the same play out of the world stage.

Paul Krugman tried to argue Bernie wasn't a socialist and put a positive spin on his bats*** insane policies a few weeks back.

He was advocating dismantling ICE and BCM, a moratorium on deportations except for vaguely defined serious crimes, extending his single payer healthcare system to illegals, and massive middle class tax hikes to pay for it.

What would you differently if you *were trying* to bankrupt the country. That policy combo effectively extends Amercian tax payer funded healthcare to the world.

Shockingly he has been f*****g flogged at the polls to the point AOC claimed voter suppression *by the democratic party*.

Regular people see straight through that s***. But for some reason the trogs of the world seem perpetually flabgasted that they can, and it is hurting their ability to get people elected.

Take a look at Labor in the UK. They have no chance of holding power for the foreseeable future, but they have aomehow convinced themselves the identity politics that got them obliterated by Boris is key to their platform.
04:03pm 20/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6247 posts
A lesson is needed for PP & Infi (not that it gets anywhere with right leaning types)
China has a totalitarian government with a mostly privately run economic system. That happened in the 80s. Bernie visiting or enjoying the statements from past Communist leaders doesnt mean a thing, and its the only argument you can come up with since you know he isnt going to seize production or nationalize all private business.

If praising of totalitarian leaders is a concern to you about Sanders, i point your attention to the praise of Putin & Kim Jong by Trump.

and PP showing more bernie hysteria. The country will go broke! by saving money *amazing*
05:59pm 20/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3998 posts
Vash you don't a thing about Deng Xiaoping just like you've never read and never will read a paragraph of Marx.

I notice we've moved on from Europe has a similar economy to China.

Never did get around to naming a European country with a Chinese style economy did you. Because you don't know s*** you just spout crap.

I'm hoping in this hundred posts to extract a fundamental factual mistake from you in every post. On target so far.
06:16pm 20/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6248 posts
I noticed we've moved on from Bernie being a Socialist, too. Interesting how that works.
I want to hear more on Infi's theory of how he would go about causing the death of millions.
06:33pm 20/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3999 posts
So that's a no you can't name a European country with a Chinese style economy.

I've not moved on he is a socialist. He is a socialist because he self identifies as one and always has. Putting democratic in front of it doesn't change it.

His policies are tempered only by the political realities of the US and even then nothing like what the US electorate will entertain. Which itself is a pretty good indication of the grip ideology has on him.
07:20pm 20/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39905 posts
China has a totalitarian government with a mostly privately run economic system.
infi's point (I assume) is that it's "privately run" right up until the point that the government want something. Any company that fails to comply with whatever idle whims of the party (or probably in reality, party members) will just be shut down or cannibalised by the state for their own purposes.

I don't think we'll ever know how often that happens, unless it happens to high profile international companies that can report it back - they will tend to be safe(r) from such interference in most cases. But of course they also are totally hamstrung by Chinese law (see: Google cowardly censoring Tiananmen Square search results, etc) and will comply to safeguard their profits because they're gutless.

I think it is better now than it ever has been though. I know you can now set up foreign companies in China without having to have Chinese majority shareholders, for example - a relatively new thing if I understand correctly.

Of course "western" companies are not immune to pressure from the government (see: NSLs in the US). In fact we're seeing that now with orders to close businesses. But the separation is generally much clearer.
09:33am 21/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4000 posts
Better late than never hey.

I know you can now set up foreign companies in China without having to have Chinese majority shareholders, for example - a relatively new thing if I understand correctly.


If that's true it's happened in the last 12 months. Some digging indicted November last year and still hasn't addressed national treatment properly.

Of course "western" companies are not immune to pressure from the government (see: NSLs in the US). In fact we're seeing that now with orders to close businesses. But the separation is generally much clearer.


The comparison between government influence during a 1 in a hundred year pandemic in the United States and business as usual China is a fairly ridiculous one. One might even argue the kind of reasoning that gets you to saying a life long self identified socialist isnt what he says he is.
10:16am 21/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1278 posts
Vash, do you read much*? Have you read much about Bernie's background?

*Not including twitter, memes and rubbish like Guardian, ABC news, and Red Revolution Monthly Magazine.
12:47pm 21/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
837 posts
Oh look, Vash is here claiming capitalism is on its last legs and is unable to deal with a pandemic at the same exact time a Communist country let an epidemic go international and unreported a full 7 weeks after it was discovered and 5 million people had left their shores. Just when you think you'd seen the bottom of the void that is Vash's cranium, you just keep reaching in and finding even less grey matter.

Hey Vash, how many of China's top 100 wealthiest companies are state owned or majority state owned? In other words, you can have a market economy where the market is effectively state owned. That's probably too complex a concept I guess. Not only that, the proceeds of "private" Chinese companies are not "shared amongst the shareholders" to put it lightly. But do go on about how its totally not that communist.
05:05pm 22/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2358 posts
lol at these idiots saying china is communist, but when you say how about them pulling a massive population out of poverty, that's capitalist.
06:05pm 22/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1279 posts
China is communist and a shift towards capitalism did pull them out of poverty. China also purposely fostered financial inequality as part of that.

Classic:

Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2358 posts
lol at these idiots saying china is communist, but when you say how about them pulling a massive population out of poverty, that's capitalist.
06:40pm 22/03/20 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2359 posts
China is communist and a shift towards capitalism did pull them out of poverty. China also purposely fostered financial inequality as part of that.

Capitalist good, socialism bad
06:44pm 22/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4001 posts
lol at these idiots saying china is communist, but when you say how about them pulling a massive population out of poverty, that's capitalist.


The argument isn't too difficult to follow.

It goes like this.

To the extent the Chinese *Communist* party abandons Marxist dogma the life of the average Chinese person improves. But simply because they have allowed some degree of private property it doesn't follow they are a free market economy or that they have ditched Marxism.

That's under 250 words redhat. Not that f***** difficult.

Now. Here is something for you to think about.

When you cover for a f*****g moron like vash parroting CCP propaganda like "they have nationalised somethings *just like Europe*", bear in mind *just* how f*****g gross that is.

Right now as we speak there are millions of muslims in actual concentration camps (not the fevor dream fpot version) in China, that they perform medical experiments on. "Just like Europe".
08:42pm 22/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24619 posts
China is the walking talking embodiment of an Orwellian authoritarian dystopia and here we have people wanting to talk about how Chinese lives have improved... It may have improved for the Chinese people who are officials or bribers of the CCP... for everyone else, it's s***.

The guest on a podcast I follow, Macrovoices, suspects China has under-reported their COVID infections by 1000x. The 81,000 should be 81 million. Absolute a******* the CCP.
09:46pm 22/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4002 posts
That's it.

I heard on channel 7 China is the model to follow for coronavirus.

They just killed all the doctors who said it was a big deal, but you know whatever. I can't believe it's not Europe.

Serious people with serious opinions my f*****g ass.
10:15pm 22/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39906 posts
China is the walking talking embodiment of an Orwellian authoritarian dystopia and here we have people wanting to talk about how Chinese lives have improved... It may have improved for the Chinese people who are officials or bribers of the CCP... for everyone else, it's s***.
Not disagreeing but I'd note "everyone else" is a tricky concept in a country with a billion people. I have never been to China (I have little desire to travel to countries that have regimes I disagree with politically) but my work for most of the last year has put me in contact with a lot of people that travel their regularly (both Chinese and foreigners). The startup I was seconded to while I was in HK had an office in China and staff travelled back and forth regularly. It's not like they're coming back talking about the poverty and despair like people do when they go to (say) India.

I think the thing that has (edit) contributed significantly to the impression that much of China has clawed its way out of poverty is that really really large numbers of them have had their quality of life improved, but it's hard to fathom because their population is just so huge. Shanghai and Beijing are both cities with populations almost the size of Australia.

(I just Googled and fwiw Wikipedia says the US is slightly worse at income inequality than China, but possibly continuing to get worse as their growth continues)

better to grow the 100%.
indeed

The guest on a podcast I follow, Macrovoices, suspects China has under-reported their COVID infections by 1000x. The 81,000 should be 81 million. Absolute a******* the CCP.
I am sure it is underreported somewhat like it will be in any authoritarian regime who think they can lie and bluster their way through this and are trying not to lose face. But I find it hard to sit around being all smug about China, Iran, Russia when /we/ are almost certainly under-reporting (alongside the US and the UK) because we have not jumped on response hard enough and still are not adequately testing.
10:13am 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6249 posts
Phew them some real nuggets of wisdom in here. PP the argument is much more complicated than that, but at least you've conceded that China is so successful partly due to their Marxist ideology and being able to adapt their economy to changes in the world economy.

Dont forget they'll be well ahead of the U.S soon in standard of living & growth, and pointing that out doesnt mean i support them, or of them murdering democracy activists or doctors.
But do keep throwing the strawmans.
01:42pm 23/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4003 posts
Phew them some real nuggets of wisdom in here. PP the argument is much more complicated than that, but at least you've conceded that China is so successful partly due to their Marxist ideology and being able to adapt their economy to changes in the world economy.


Said literally the exact opposite of that you dunderheaded moron.

Dont forget they'll be well ahead of the U.S soon in standard of living & growth, and pointing that out doesnt mean i support them, or of them murdering democracy activists or doctors.


No they absolutely will not. US has a gdp per person over three times the size of China.

I am sure it is underreported somewhat like it will be in any authoritarian regime who think they can lie and bluster their way through this and are trying not to lose face. But I find it hard to sit around being all smug about China, Iran, Russia when /we/ are almost certainly under-reporting (alongside the US and the UK) because we have not jumped on response hard enough and still are not adequately testing.


This cannot possibly be serious.
01:56pm 23/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39907 posts
at least you've conceded that China is so successful partly due to their Marxist ideology
which bits? it seems more like they've succeeded /despite/ Marxist ideology falling them into a stereotypical authoritarian regime. I do not follow Chinese politics closely so maybe there are some marvels of Marxist success I am not familiar with but to my eye everything they've gained has been because of a relentless commercial expansionist drive more reminiscent of the first Industrial Revolution (sacrificing workers and the environment for the sake of making dem duckets
02:22pm 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6250 posts
Contrary to popular belief, Marxism is the analysis of systems, not a system in itself. From what i read on China's philosophy, they still consider themselves in the first stage of Socialism. Utilizing markets & capital investment, with the goal being to spur rapid growth & industrialization, and then changing to a more sustainable system & begin the process of shifting more of the wealth back to the people, and with eventual Communism at post scarcity. No other nation really has a plan for 100s of years into the future, and Marxism puts China ahead in this way, IMO.
Much of the west would die kicking & screaming while trying to keep things 'as they are'.

Coronavirus is going to change the world economy, and to keep Capitalism afloat, the most popular flotation device at the moment looks like being UBI.
05:02pm 23/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39908 posts
and then changing to a more sustainable system & begin the process of shifting more of the wealth back to the people
well, I'll believe that when I see it. my belief in people doing what they say they're going to do has never been closer to zero; I don't know why you think it will be any easier to decouple the wealth from the Chinese aristocracy in the future than it is trying to do it from the Americans
Coronavirus is going to change the world economy, and to keep Capitalism afloat, the most popular flotation device at the moment looks like being UBI.
Maybe in Scandinavia; everywhere else looks like it's good old fashioned corporate favouritism and trickledowns

I am just stunned how unprepared the governments have been about this. I literally have believed my whole life that there's a f*****g room somewhere with a bunch of studies that they periodically refresh with titles like "COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA MASTER PLAN FOR PANDEMIC TYPE III, WEEKS ONE THROUGH FOUR" and "A GUIDE FOR CITIZENS IN THE EVENT OF ALIEN INVASION". Turns out the whole time the plan was to just f*****g wing it.
05:15pm 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6251 posts
Because it's America. at least we know China's chain of command is f***ed, or at least, it's common knowledge. America is under the illusion of having freedom & democracy but its instead long been a corpocracy, police state, whatever, many f***ed up things they've done that noone cares to know about because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Imagine if we still elected leaders with a vision for what they wanted the country, or world to be. Instead they just fumble their way through their elected terms while playing golf or heading off on holiday during crisis.
05:39pm 23/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4004 posts
From what i read on China's philosophy,


Why lie

Because it's America. at least we know China's chain of command is f***ed, or at least, it's common knowledge. America is under the illusion of having freedom & democracy but its instead long been a corpocracy, police state, whatever, many f***ed up things they've done that noone cares to know about because it doesn't fit the narrative.


Two posts into being questioned by trog and we are at America is just like China but the sheeple don't know it because of the "narrative".
05:55pm 23/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26957 posts
Turns out the whole time the plan was to just f*****g wing it.
See it can't possibly be that. It just can't be possible. So my thinking is there is a plan, they're just incapable of following it. To me that is very worrying because we're still in such early stages. How will their response be when the hospitals are full of patients with the busiest area being in the basement?
06:00pm 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6252 posts
How will their response be when the hospitals are full of patients with the busiest area being in the basement?
https://i.imgur.com/jKGo12L.jpg
06:51pm 23/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39909 posts
See it can't possibly be that. It just can't be possible. So my thinking is there is a plan, they're just incapable of following it.
My leading hypothesis is that there IS a plan, they have read it, and discarded it, because They Know Better.
06:58pm 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6253 posts
They are all about feelings over facts. The exact thing they complain about from the other side of politics. projection in a beautiful nutshell. Lets call it the Chinese virus because the only reason its not called that is surely because of political correctness. gotem.
Then they go ahead and enact policy like they did despite many years of complaining about the same 'wasted money' that labor spent. When they realize that s*** has hit the fan and progressive policy works.
they go ahead and copy it.
08:24pm 23/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4005 posts
Have you been drinking vash?
08:35pm 23/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6254 posts
Of course, and some beautiful quality weed. Life is good.
09:00pm 23/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39910 posts
11:30pm 23/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4006 posts
Of course, and some beautiful quality weed. Life is good.


Guys we should be worried, a hippy stoner is predicting "the end of capitalism man" for the 8th time this year. He is also accusing people of being blind to it because of all powerful media (possibly run by Jews) which presents a "narrative" while smoking a drug known to induce paranoia.
07:47am 24/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6255 posts
PP had a bad experience with weed before it seems, what a shame. If you want to see true paranoia, look to your boy in the white house ;)
Deep states, fake news and democrat viruses oh my
01:47pm 24/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26960 posts
It's almost as though trump is colluding with the virus at this point. Talking about sacrificing lives so numbers can go up. Peddling untested and unverified 'cures' like some 9/11 truther geocities webpage. Lying constantly in such harmful, soul destroying fashion. You can comfortably add 1000s to the death toll directly from his bungling. When the final accounting is done the number will be much higher especially if better of dead than in the red is implemented.

Like seriously, chuds, this is the moment you decouple right? There can't actually be real people who are on board with this bulls***?
02:01pm 24/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6256 posts
Theres no decoupling when you're this deep in the rabbit hole. They didnt get there by critical thinking.
02:20pm 24/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4007 posts
PP had a bad experience with weed before it seems, what a shame. If you want to see true paranoia, look to your boy in the white house ;)
Deep states, fake news and democrat viruses oh my


Ok hippy. When you say fake news, tell us more about who perpetuates the "narrative" the US is more free than China.

It's almost as though trump is colluding with the virus at this point. Talking about sacrificing lives so numbers can go up. Peddling untested and unverified 'cures' like some 9/11 truther geocities webpage.


There is nothing Trump can't collude with according to fpot. Predictable fpot response is predictable. I mean when Andrew Cuomo was saying New Yorkers should keep going to ball games and restaurants less than three weeks ago was he colluding with the virus? Did he read the plan and then "Just Know Better"? Or is that something only Trump is capable of doing?
03:10pm 24/03/20 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3398 posts

https://www.facebook.com/148004722006806/posts/2201706576636600/?sfnsn=mo&extid=wXyaanBCAO8xzN9Z

Two men have now been charged with terrorism offences by the NSW Joint Counter Terrorism Team (JCTT) following operational activity last week on NSW’s South Coast investigating extreme right-wing behaviour. It will be alleged that the men shared extreme right-wing ideology, including Neo-Nazi and anti-government sentiments, and undertook acts in preparation for a terrorist act, including allegedly attempting to acquire weapons and items capable of making an improvised explosive device.

Continuing investigations resulted in weapons charges against a third man, and he is scheduled to face court in June. He has not been charged with a terrorism offence.

The AFP treats all extremist groups seriously and targets criminality, not ideologies or backgrounds. We work tirelessly with state police and government agencies to disrupt terrorism preparation before an offence can take place.

Anyone with information about extremist activity or possible threats to the community should contact the National Security Hotline on 1800 123 400.


Looks like right wingers in Australia committing terrorism at much higher rates than mulims. Probably in their genetics. I know because Jordan Peterson told me lol
03:16pm 24/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
838 posts
https://i.imgur.com/jKGo12L.jpg


Now do the left's reactions to terrorist attacks from third world immigrants. It's actually worse from the left to be honest because you clowns start banging on about the rise of right wing extremism.

Meanwhile in Europe the third worlders are ignoring lockdowns.

Should I remind you of what the Democrat mayor of New York did and the Senate minority leader did in early Feb regarding this virus outbreak?


Ok I will

Such a stunning display of leadership, parading around with thousands of likely infected visitors from Wuhan.

Oh...New York now has over 20,000 confirmed cases....oh.

That's because of Trump.

Let's try and pretend that we actually gave a f*** about it a month ago though and hope no one with more than 2 brain cells realises that fpot and vash aren't talking out of their absolutely cavernous arses as usual.
03:23pm 24/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6257 posts

Thoughts and prayers for dazed's post.
When someone brings to your awareness that Trump called the virus a democrat hoax, does fake news immediately enter your head?

“It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump,” Rush Limbaugh, the conservative radio host, said on his syndicated program this week, dismissing the disease as a Democratic talking point. “The coronavirus is the common cold, folks,” Mr. Limbaugh added, incorrectly. (The coronavirus is more deadly and more contagious than the common cold, and it can cause severe flulike symptoms.) Viewers of the Fox News talk show “Fox & Friends” on Friday heard the co-host Ainsley Earhardt introduce a segment by announcing: “Let’s talk about the Democrats and the media with this coronavirus, and they’re making it political.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/business/media/coronavirus-right-wing-media.html

During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.


03:33pm 24/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26961 posts
Theres no decoupling when you're this deep in the rabbit hole. They didnt get there by critical thinking.
Confirmed.
03:34pm 24/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4008 posts

Oh well if the New York Times say Trump is performing badly I guess the debate is over.

Although the NYT also said https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coronavirus.html

Time and time again, destinations perceived as “Western” benefit from a kind of cultural familiarity and presumption of safety that so-called foreign or exotic places do not. When we, as travelers, decide what places are too unsafe to travel, those decisions are determined not just by actual conditions on the ground but also by perceptions shaped by the media, the travel industry and the foreign offices of governments
Similarly, in the 2017-18 flu season, when the United States had a particularly bad outbreak, the respiratory virus resulted in an estimated 61,000 deaths and 45 million symptomatic cases — but no travel warnings.


The travel ban was racist because it was just a flu. But Dr Fauci disagrees. He seemed to think it bought the US time.

The NYT analysis of how serious the coronavirus is depends precisely on whether maximizing or minimising it justifies attacking Trump.

But in any case it's fun to watch someone complain about critical thinking and then link to partisan criticism without blinking.


04:12pm 24/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6258 posts
Oh well if the New York Times say Trump is performing badly I guess the debate is over.


Pretty much. if thats the worst you can find from the NYT, have i got some compelling reading for you on a fox news site.

Ready to criticize Trump yet?
05:10pm 24/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4009 posts
Ready to criticize Trump yet?


So let me get this straight. Trump says the threat is exaggerated but acts to limit exposure to the virus back in January is the end of the world.

The NYT criticising the measures taken to limit the spread of the virus accusing Trump of exaggerating the threat is just fine.

The last advice was limiting travel is absolutely essential to containing this virus but if he were to follow the advice from NYT travel likely would only be just starting to be limited now.

I've no particular interest in debating something you know even less about than socialism. It's too early to judge the response yet. We will see how it stacks up in about a month if Italy is any guide.
05:21pm 24/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4010 posts

Trump's approval climbing. and specifically on coronavirus:

Americans give the president generally positive reviews for his handling of the situation, with 60% approving and 38% disapproving. Ninety-four percent of Republicans, 60% of independents and 27% of Democrats approve of his response.


Maybe just maybe, this
Like seriously, chuds, this is the moment you decouple right? There can't actually be real people who are on board with this bulls***?

Is exactly backwards. If you can't read coverage of Trump critically now you aren't capable of it.

And taking time to form an opinion instead of running around with your hair on fire is the better way to approach things. Because ya know, it f*****g always has been and always will be.

What fpot et al can't seem to get through their thick idiot skulls is when you paint Trump as the herald of the apocalypse, when the apocalypse doesn't turn up he looks good. By fpot's recoking Trump has faced 8 Katrinas in the last four years. Which either makes him a miracle of a president or makes fpot a liar or a moron (and probably both).

Edit oh and let's not pretend this
Peddling untested and unverified 'cures' like some 9/11 truther geocities webpage.


Is not a reference to this
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/coronavirus-news-arizona-man-dies-after-taking-chloroquine-drug-touted-by-trump-as-treatment/

In which the news says because Trump says some success has been had with anti malaria drugs it's his fault someone killed themselves drinking f*****g fish tank cleaner. Whose in the rabbit hole again?
07:45am 25/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24620 posts
dude never go full retard. maybe ease up on the day-time drinking too.
06:33pm 25/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4011 posts
https://i.postimg.cc/sXf7Mn7J/EUDL1-O7-XQAstm96.png

I disagree infi. Having a functional news media instead of the partisan jackasses we have at a time like this could be useful.

for example here is an Australian ABC correspondant saying this could be a Suez canal moment for the US and China is taking a global leadership position on this thing. This tax payer funded moron quotes Obama officials uncritically, saying the US won't be a great power after coronavirus. I suppose the world's largest Navy and airforce will just stop working or something.

Meanwhile in Australia here is a taste of Chinese pandemic leadership.

second developer flies 82 tonnes of medical supplies to china. Late February state backed developer ceased normal operations to buy medical supplies en masse and ship them to Wuhan. Cause the CCP totally had s*** under control.

If this situation has any historical parallel it's Chernobyl and we all know it. The CCP screwed the pooch on this thing and has lied continually throughout. It would nice to have a media that is not so far up its own ass trying to get Trump it could spend a bit of time investigating the actual causes.

Never never forget
https://i.postimg.cc/Kj8W5S3p/ET5-ZRq-UYAEVQ3-O.jpg
07:51am 27/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16993 posts
The USA is now #1 for COVID-19 infections, as Trump continues to praise the 10/10 US response and looks forward to getting back to business as usual in a couple of weeks.

Also the MSM is trying to make him look bad. It's literally a conspiracy.

Things is your guy, team blue:

https://youtu.be/ch7_t2Ri2Zg

Anyone want to back these statements? Is he doing a good job during the crisis?
02:07pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16994 posts
Dazed, nobody has flipped as hard or as fast on this as Trump.

While still managing to say it's all ok, hopefully back to work in a couple weeks. Is he right - is there a quick path to normalcy here? Is Dr Fauci wrong?

Has his continued, on record denial and talking down the situation caused it to spread faster in the USA?
02:09pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16995 posts
On a local note, I guess we didn't actually stop the boats after all.
02:31pm 27/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24621 posts
of course we did. what makes you say that?
02:33pm 27/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4012 posts
Hogfather I don't have the interest to step through a minute and a half of quote mines.

Here is how I see the situation.

Trump acted early and appropriately to limit travel from China. He was excoriated for this as a racist.

The early testing situation was bungled for a number of reasons some of the blame for which rests with Trump some doesn't.

The decision to enter total lockdown will carry costs of its own and likely will have its own (and probably significant) death toll.

It is therefore also appropriate to delay total lock down as long as possible, but when you have to go go quickly.

I don't believe it will be cleared up by Easter. I doubt it will be cleared up this year. But I also don't think the situation is anything like as grim as outlets like the Washington Post are saying (saying now it must be remembered, two months ago they were saying the exact opposite). They are plastering the airwaves with the worst case scenario from models which are necessarily flawed because it's a new virus. Or is Dr Birx wrong?

What seems to get lost in this ridiculous time we are living in is that something can be serious and it still be possible to over react to it and make it worse. Trump absolutely does this but so far as I can see we have been dumped with a news media that does it just as much.

There is no conspiracy here. It is just a media ecosystem which has for a range of reasons (though probably largely Google and Facebook stealing all their ad money) favours sensationalism and has been determined to read every word that comes out of Trump's mouth in the worst possible light. Your video being a convenient example.

So far as I can see if the American death toll per capita is in the middle of the road internationally Trump's response will have been fine. We won't know that for at least a month yet.

America has the most infections because it also has the most people. And if you believe China's statistics I don't really know what I can do for you.

of course we did. what makes you say that?

The Ruby Princess slipped through the net.
02:38pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16996 posts
Let's keep this simple, to as you say avoid the quote mining.

The USA becoming the most infected country in the world is a good milestone to reflect on how its all going over there.

Is Trump doing a good job? Is he the best guy for the job in America?

Oh s*** I missed this.
America has the most infections because it also has the most people. And if you believe China's statistics I don't really know what I can do for you.

So having the most money, the most liberal market, a GOP President and most advanced medical system in the world didn't help at all?
03:46pm 27/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4013 posts
So having the most money, the most liberal market, a GOP President and most advanced medical system in the world didn't help at all?


Well no not really. Here is some of my reasoning on this.

It doesn't hurt to have the most money but the solution so far as I can see is to keep people separated from sick people until a vaccine can be developed. This presents challenges to liberal societies that authoritarian societies don't have to deal with.

Trump so far as I can see has extremely competent people managing the crisis, which is basically all any president could do. From every thing I've seen dr Fauci and dr Birx are absolute guns.

As I said before testing should have been ramped up earlier but the reasons for that are more complex than Trump f***ed up.

So in short, I probably wouldn't go to Trump as my first pick but so far outside of the testing he seems to be ramping up measures basically in line with the rest of the world so I think his response is ok.

I should add
Is he the best guy for the job in America?
I firmly don't believe anyone else with a chance of having the job would be doing a better one right now.
04:04pm 27/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24622 posts
of course we did. what makes you say that?


The Ruby Princess slipped through the net.


It arrived legally. NSW Health authorities did not vet their passengers. Look at WA for better practice.
04:10pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41441 posts
Look at WA for better practice.


lols, with the chinese boats coming into mining towns and its up to the captain of the boat on their state of health?

i dont think so, bro.
05:35pm 27/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24623 posts
The WA govt forbade a cruise ship with infected from docking and forced it to be removed. Good leadership and governance.
06:16pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16997 posts
the solution so far as I can see is to keep people separated from sick people until a vaccine can be developed. This presents challenges to liberal societies that authoritarian societies don't have to deal with


I think that its a fair statement to say that Trump's personal input on the matter has been to largely downplay the issue where possible. He's clearly on record on multiple occasions presenting this case, with his 'hopefully all done by Easter' recent advice being the latest contribution. He has also consistently praised the Government's response in glowing terms, asserting that everything is under control.

There has been a large and documented problem getting Americans young and old to take the pandemic seriously and to follow the expert's guidelines regarding social distancing. Given how important it is to convince the public to 'do the right thing' in liberal societies like the USA, are Trump's efforts to downplay the seriousness and depth of the pandemic helpful?
07:03pm 27/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39918 posts
The WA govt forbade a cruise ship with infected from docking and forced it to be removed. Good leadership and governance.
which ship are you talking about? I think there are at least three off the WA coast (some of which have already docked and have had infected passengers already removed)

edit: quick Google to catch up indicates maybe only one has docked
07:19pm 27/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4014 posts
Here is the way I treat Trump's commentary.

If it matches policy developments then I listen. If not I tune it out.

I would be willing to take this criticism

Given how important it is to convince the public to 'do the right thing' in liberal societies like the USA, are Trump's efforts to downplay the seriousness and depth of the pandemic helpful?


More seriously if the political leaders (all democrats I might add) of New York (now the epicenter of the US epidemic) were not actively (despite being in a federal system, the most empowered to enforce distancing) telling their citizens to go out to large gatherings less than three weeks ago. I read the chief medical officer of NYC contradicted Dr Birx yesterday demanding people who have been in NYC self isolate (NYC account for more than half all cases in the US)

However to cut to the core of the problem, which Morrison concisely stated, there are two deep crises happening here the public health one and the economic one. The US is just leaving winter. If a (very large) bunch of people lost their jobs in February in northern American winter what's the plan for that? While an epidemic is happening?

So in short I understand why he wants people back at work as soon as possible. His balancing is not being done perfectly but it does need to be done and I don't see an obvious better solution.

However I've answered two questions now. I think you owe me one. If the situation is as bad as everyone says it is do you consider Nancy Pelosi tanking the relief package on Sunday night and delaying it by three days to insist on, among other things:

30 million dollars for an art museum;
Any company that takes assistance must submit diversity and inclusion statement to the federal government;
All airlines must be carbon neutral;
Rebates for solar panels and wind farms,

Be included in the package a responsible act?

Is that the actions of someone taking the situation seriously enough for your tastes?
08:21pm 27/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26962 posts
Has his continued, on record denial and talking down the situation caused it to spread faster in the USA?
Absolutely undeniably yes and it has cost at an extremely conservative guess thousands of lives.
09:33pm 27/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4015 posts
Absolutely undeniably yes and it has cost at an extremely conservative guess thousands of lives.


There have been 1303 coronavirus deaths in the US. It is literally impossible it could have cost "thousands of lives". And that's not accounting for the lives saved by the "racist" banning of European and Chinese travel by *February 12*. Trump has been putting increasingly restrictive measures in place since January, *like every government on earth*.

Mind fpots numbers can be, how do you say, rubbery

What we have at the moment is an impeached moron in charge of a potential crisis so large that literally a million plus people could die.


That's the figure fpot is committed too. Not 4000, not 30000, not 200000, a million plus. He doesn't get to shift the goal posts now.

When it's not that, chicken little racks up another failed prediction. Which so far is a 100% failure rate as it relates to Trump.
10:29pm 27/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24624 posts
I don't want to be hysterical guys but realistically we are looking at a million dead because of Trump. 100% serious.
10:58pm 27/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26964 posts
I'd say a foolish speculative guess could range into the hundreds of thousands dead due to trump's failure but way too early to make any sort of call like that at this stage. Your strawman was probably the closest to reality it's ever been though so that's a plus.

The virus itself could easily kill a million in the US. If trump fills churches by Easter like he is planning any number around the million mark is possible. Surely he's not actually going to do that? Just harmless marketing spin for sure, right?
11:12pm 27/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4016 posts
I'd say a foolish speculative guess could range into the hundreds of thousands dead due to trump's failure but way too early to make any sort of call like that at this stage. Your strawman was probably the closest to reality it's ever been though so that's a plus.

The virus itself could easily kill a million in the US. If trump fills churches by Easter like he is planning any number around the million mark is possible. Surely he's not actually going to do that? Just harmless marketing spin for sure, right?


So that's fpot now double commited to a million deaths. Don't forget thousands of deaths at this stage is not only it factually incorrect it's literally impossible.

When, if it isn't safe Trump doesn't open churches (which he cannot actually close the states have too), this prediction will be wrong.

The reason it will be wrong is because Trump has *expressly stated* Easter is aspirational. And this is *exactly* what I am talking about. The obvious meaning of words gets jettisoned in favour of the worst possible reading.

Wanting, for good reasons (and something everyone who doesn't have their head firmly inserted in their own anus for example fpot should want), the pandemic to be over as soon as possible, is NOT the same thing as saying it will be over.
11:33pm 27/03/20 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6642 posts
With expected infection/death rates it'd be close to 4 million deaths in the us. 60% Infection, 2% deaths. Assuming minimal measures are continued.
They're up to 1500 deaths now, they were ~1250, 12 hours ago. Looks like they cracked the 100,000 cases last night too. Also for numbers sake, Italy has a death rate of around 10% at the moment. US is currently sitting at 1.5%

Will we actually reach those numbers? F*** knows. Not if they come down pretty hard lockdown style. What we can say though, it's going to get pretty f*****g bad.
What we can also say is that the limited action that the US government has taken sure makes it seem like it's made matters worse. Considering their surge in infected.

Best case; They're really f*****g fast with a Vaccine (usually takes a long time) or Anti-Viral (which has traditionally been difficult.)
09:19am 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39919 posts
I don't want to be hysterical guys but realistically we are looking at a million dead because of Trump. 100% serious.
out of interest, what number of US coronavirus deaths will it take to convince you Trump is a bad president? or are you saying that a million people /might/ die, but Trump won't be responsible?

if you can't answer this question with a number, I'd be interested in hearing whose responsibility it is, because it would mean he is absolved of it. if he is not taking responsibility then I guess it's up to the states to look after themselves?

we are getting a crash course in leadership and the fallibility of the strong-man leader persona, literally right now. I do not with this f*** of a virus on ANYONE but Boris Johnson is a prime example - a dude that was wandering around recently bragging about how many hands he has been shaking, in order to keep up the illusion that everything is fine. that is the behaviour of a f*****g sociopath,
09:55am 28/03/20 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6643 posts
It's definitely not Trumps responsibility at all as the head of their Government. Just ask him.
10:31am 28/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24625 posts
Great question! When Democrat-run cities are reduced to homeless-ridden, needle/faeces ridden warzones, do you hold the President responsible?

When Qld. Health surgery wait times blow out do you blame the Prime Minister?

States have rights to be f***ups.
Welcome to the Federal government system.

To answer your specific question, the latter rather than the former.

out of interest, what number of US coronavirus deaths will it take to convince you Trump is a bad president? or are you saying that a million people /might/ die, but Trump won't be responsible?

if you can't answer this question with a number, I'd be interested in hearing whose responsibility it is, because it would mean he is absolved of it. if he is not taking responsibility then I guess it's up to the states to look after themselves?

we are getting a crash course in leadership and the fallibility of the strong-man leader persona, literally right now. I do not with this f*** of a virus on ANYONE but Boris Johnson is a prime example - a dude that was wandering around recently bragging about how many hands he has been shaking, in order to keep up the illusion that everything is fine. that is the behaviour of a f*****g sociopath,
10:33am 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39920 posts
Great question! When Democrat-run cities are reduced to homeless-ridden, needle/faeces ridden warzones, do you hold the President responsible?
If the President is up there talking non-stop about how under control everything is with respect to the feces on the streets and how he's doing such an excellent job at controlling fecal matter and how they're not a problem anyway and then in the next breath is screaming at companies on Twitter to get their act together and start picking up needles, then it does give the impression somewhat that at least the President thinks he's in some way responsible.

If he wants to make it a state problem, MAKE IT A STATE PROBLEM, shut the f*** up, give the states whatever federal aid possible, and get the f*** out of the way.
To answer your specific question, the latter rather than the former.
then instead of making jokes about how many people are going to die, maybe you should explain to people that you don't think Trump is involved in the decision loop here and that it's a states rights issue and it's up to them to manage their own healthcare to solve this crisis.

edit: do states have the right to close their own borders? I can't find an easy answer to this question. If not then "states have a right to be f***ups" is the usual libertarian fallacy that is once again trivially demolished by the old "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose".
11:02am 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4017 posts
With expected infection/death rates it'd be close to 4 million deaths in the us. 60% Infection, 2% deaths. Assuming minimal measures are continued.


As doctor Birx said two days ago those numbers assume government does absolutely nothing.

So yes if Trump does literally nothing than the numbers could run up to the millions. The trouble with that he has been doing stuff since January.

Now this is where we move into incredibly f*****g tiresome.

out of interest, what number of US coronavirus deaths will it take to convince you Trump is a bad president? or are you saying that a million people /might/ die, but Trump won't be responsible?


How about everyone wailing Trump is Hitler with herpies answer the reverse question. What number means he is vaguely competent and what number means he smashed it out the park bearing in mind that with a population 350,000,000 it has always been impossible to avoid a death toll the thousands.

And as for this
we are getting a crash course in leadership and the fallibility of the strong-man leader persona, literally right now. I do not with this f*** of a virus on ANYONE but Boris Johnson is a prime example - a dude that was wandering around recently bragging about how many hands he has been shaking, in order to keep up the illusion that everything is fine. that is the behaviour of a f*****g sociopath,


Boris Johnson is a strong man sociopath for talking about shaking hands.

NYC's chief medical officer told New Yorkers to go about their daily lives as regular three weeks ago. The man whose direct responsibility it is to communicate accurate medical information to the worst affected city was "trying to keep the illusion that everything is fine" going just as Johnson was. Is he a strong man sociopath? Or is the answer "it's different when we do it".

Edit

If he wants to make it a state problem, MAKE IT A STATE PROBLEM, shut the f*** up, give the states whatever federal aid possible, and get the f*** out of the way.


WHAT LIKE LENDING THE ARMY ENGINEERING CORE TO NEW YORK TO BUILD AN EMERGENCY HOSPITAL WITHIN A WEEK?

is that the sort of thing you're talking about?
11:08am 28/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24626 posts

do states have the right to close their own borders?


Australian states literally just did that. cmon....

QUEENSLAND’S border will be closed from midnight, Wednesday, it can be confirmed.

Anyone travelling into Queensland will be required to self quarantine for 14 days regardless if they are sick or not.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/st-margarets-anglican-girls-school-confirms-three-parents-have-tested-positive-to-coronavirus/news-story/2dffb47f842a7766cb3290f393692cde

then instead of making jokes about how many people are going to die, maybe you should explain to people that you don't think Trump is involved in the decision loop here and that it's a states rights issue and it's up to them to manage their own healthcare to solve this crisis.


it would be truly horrific if 1 million Americans died from the virus and definitely no joke. I am ridiculing the hysterical jump to conclusions that 4,764 deaths will plausibly become 1million. If deaths are below 50,000 would you say he is a good president?

I am satisfied that both the US and Australian governments are taking the virus seriously and are doing their best to balance the interests of health and the economy. Annabel Crab wrote a great article articulating this challenge.
11:32am 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39921 posts
Australian states literally just did that. cmon....
weird place to do a context switch - we're talking about the USA.
I am ridiculing the hysterical jump to conclusions that 4,764 deaths will plausibly become 1million.
you know a couple weeks back, there were zero deaths from this disease though, right? people aren't talking about exponential growth because they're maths nerds.
If deaths are below 50,000 would you say he is a good president?
wait is he responsible in this scenario now? let's say that if he steps up and owns the responsibility, takes direct action using federal resources, and this results in deaths below 50k, I will cheerfully stand up in front of everyone and say "holy s*** well I think Trump is an utter f***head of near unimaginable incompetence - but he really stood up and nailed this coronovirus to the wall - well done, that man. today is the day he became president" (h/t to Megan Amram, one of the few shining lights making me laugh during this s***).
I am satisfied that both the US and Australian governments are taking the virus seriously and are doing their best to balance the interests of health and the economy. Annabel Crab wrote a great article articulating this challenge.
Good article. There was a great comment on the Tweeters a couple days back, something along the lines of "Australians normally: why do we even have states, why doesn't the federal government do everything? Australians today: s*** I'm glad we have states now because the federal government is useless". I think this is the fault of poor comms on the part of the Australian federal government.

But I agree, generally, with your statement: both countries are taking it seriously. I think Australia will come out of it better and sooner than the US though. Whether the US comes out of it the same country as before is very much still up in the air, I think.
11:44am 28/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26966 posts
I am ridiculing the hysterical jump to conclusions that 4,764 deaths will plausibly become 1million.
How can you possibly be this dumb?
12:03pm 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4018 posts
you know a couple weeks back, there were zero deaths from this disease though, right? people aren't talking about exponential growth because they're maths nerds.


You know a couple of weeks ago Trump hadn't been given a 2 trillion dollar package to deal with the problem right?

They aren't acting to reduce transmissions because they want to see what alternate assumptions they can run through modelling software.

wait is he responsible in this scenario now?

If we could engage our grown up brains and stop with the false dichotomies that'd be great mmm Kay.

There was a great comment on the Tweeters a couple days back, something along the lines of "Australians normally: why do we even have states, why doesn't the federal government do everything? Australians today: s*** I'm glad we have states now because the federal government is useless". I think this is the fault of poor comms on the part of the Australian federal government.


What Australians actually think:
yougov virus response poll very good for government

Lot of blue water drips in that tweeter feed?
12:22pm 28/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24627 posts
How can you possibly be this dumb?


What probability would you place on USA reaching 1 million deaths?
12:35pm 28/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26967 posts
If 30% of the population are infected and there's a 1.5% death rate then 1 471 500 will die. Those are conservative numbers reflective of a competent response.

If 60% of the population are infected with a death rate of 3.4% then 6 670 800 will die. These are worst case scenario numbers and trump in charge is a worst case scenario.

Luckily though there are some competent people in government over there and that highest number won't be reached (hopefully). The virus could also become less virulent as they sometimes do, or it could get all Spanish Flu on our collective asses and come on strongly in a second wave but there's no indication that will be the case.

So basically a million people on the current numbers is a mathematical certainty. My overarching point is though that even without thinking about it, and even when completely low-balling the numbers trump's response or lack thereof has cost literally thousands of lives.
12:49pm 28/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6259 posts


What probability would you place on USA reaching 1 million deaths?


Chances are up there i think, considering the bungles we've seen so far. But even if the USA reached those numbers and no other country did, you'd still find it impossible to criticise the cult leader.
01:05pm 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4019 posts
It's ok everyone.

The middle-aged gold coast bouncer has run the numbers and it is therefore a mathematical certainty over a million will die.

The 60% population infected number comes from the scenario where the government does absolutely nothing. Which is like totally a mathematical certainty.

F*** knows where 30% comes from. It might not be a mathematical certainty but all signs point to a middle-aged gold coast bouncers ass. We may never know.

Chances are up there i think, considering the bungles we've seen so far. But even if the USA reached those numbers and no other country did, you'd still find it impossible to criticise the cult leader.


What is much much more likely is the numbers being way lower than that and you and fpot say that they are all his fault anyway.
01:22pm 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39922 posts
Everything hinges entirely on how much the measures they have done to date have impacted the spread. We won't know for a couple weeks, but we know right now they have been climbing pretty much in line with every single model of predictions that I have seen.

It's too early to call it a certainty that they'll have 1m fatalities (a totally arbitrary number); confirmed cases is only 100k. If the measures of the last few weeks have worked, it's possible the number won't keep climbing. But I don't think they've done enough, and this combined with the general American propensity to tell government to go get f***ed, numbers could climb much higher.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html is an excellent resource; if you click the USA you can see the graph in the bottom right. That means they are pretty much in the exponential growth danger zone.

If the measures of two weeks ago are effective, we'll see that graph start to flatten out from tomorrow. If not, you can just continue to draw a straight line (almost vertical!) and extrapolate the number of cases they'll have.
01:53pm 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39923 posts
speaker of just genuine deads*** leadership decisions, can someone explain to me why hairdressers are considered critical services at this time

because if it wasn't for that, this would have been the time of the bandana
02:41pm 28/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16998 posts
Thanks for the replies PP

Basically Trump can do no wrong, as expected. He takes no responsibility and is assigned none by supporters.

I can only imagine the polar opposite if Hillary was in charge.

If anyone disagrees, it's time to attack the person (lol bouncers don't get to have opinions) and lots of dodging of direct questions. Where possible deflect attention to any local Democrat authorities for a global pandemic.

This sort of thing is why this thread is boring and I only drop in from time to time.

Prediction: 50k USA deaths by Easter, imo, and a humanitarian disaster in NYC. Trump apologists will continue to do their thing. 50-50 if the DPA is used by then at all. For the record I'm a retired CTO/CIO as people's employment status matters here.

Let's catch up again at chocky time and see if Trump is still super duper.
03:09pm 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4020 posts
Oh poppyc*** hogfather. I take it this was a totally acceptable response by fpot:
How can you possibly be this dumb?

Turns out modelling a pandemic maybe more complex than firing up ms calculator and dividing 350m by 0.6 and then by 0.034.

Unless you have an advance on he should have said to self isolate earlier and some good reason to ignore why every level of government was saying the same thing at the same time in NYC it's not a valid criticism.

In a federal system of government responsibility for a response to something like this is *shared* so unless you are willing to acknowledge that expressly I put it to you that you just think Trump can do no right.

I have repeatedly said it is too early to judge to the response and that the early testing was a fiasco. So although Trump bears some blame for the testing it's not only his fault.

Edit

For the record I'm a retired CTO/CIO as people's employment status matters here.


It doesn't unless you want to start saying death rates are mathematical certainties.

Edit 2

To ram the shared responsibility point home this is Mayor de Blasio on March 11. That was 18 days ago.

During a press conference, Mayor de Blasio said he is “telling people to not avoid restaurants, not avoid normal things that people do. . . . If you’re not sick, you should be going about your life.” (The city was four days away from the announcement that the city was closing all schools.)

But elsewhere in the press conference, explaining why the city was asking employers to stagger work hours, de Blasio said, “It’s just trying to take away the dynamics where people are on in unusually close circumstances, like a crowded New York City subway car in rush hour where, you know, God forbid, someone coughs or sneezes and can’t get their elbow up in time. You know, you could be right there in front of them. That’s a real thing.” Later the mayor added, “I remind you all, we went through Ebola, and there were people who are scared because the one patient in the Ebola — and this is an absolutely, you know, Ebola makes, if I could be so cold, coronavirus look like a walk in the park.”
03:29pm 28/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26968 posts
speaker of just genuine deads*** leadership decisions, can someone explain to me why hairdressers are considered critical services at this time
I've been off work sick for a while now and if you could see me you'd instantly know the answer to that question.
03:56pm 28/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16999 posts
Oh poppyc*** hogfather. I take it this was a totally acceptable response by fpot

I don't think that internet insult is quite on the same order as putting down a man and discarding his opinion because of his real life employment, but that's just me, YMMV. Sounds like you think its equivalent, though.

Your responses to my very pointed and specifically targeted questions have been broad and rambling. I'll try one more time though:

How does the President's continued, on-record downplaying of the crisis (and literal, outright lies about things like testing) help Dr Fauci and his team to communicate the need for radical physical distancing to save lives?


I won't read another essay from you about this simple question, try to stay within a paragraph. If you manage that I'd like to talk about DPA.

I don't expect that I'll get a real answer, hence we can do this in Easter when we know more about exactly how f***ed the yanks are. I look forward to more equivocation and apologies for POTUS in coming weeks as the clearly looming humanitarian crisis unfolds.
05:01pm 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4021 posts
I'll preface this with I do respect your opinion so I'll play. I'll even deal with it first.
How does the President's continued, on-record downplaying of the crisis (and literal, outright lies about things like testing) help Dr Fauci and his team to communicate the need for radical physical distancing to save lives?


It doesn't.

That's three words. So I've played your game here is a more accurate question. Id appreciate and answer in three or less words.
does the President's continued, on-record downplaying of the crisis (and literal, outright lies about things like testing) make him solely responsible for any yet to be determined elevation in death rate in a context in which he is not solely responsible for the response and the other actors have also been downplaying the threat as recently as 18 days ago?


As for the fpot business.

I don't think that internet insult is quite on the same order as putting down a man and discarding his opinion because of his real life employment, but that's just me, YMMV. Sounds like you think its equivalent, though.


I'll begin be reiterating a person's profession doesn't matter
unless you want to start saying death rates are mathematical certainties.


Now even if fpots behaviour was limited to that comment alone, which you and I both know it isn't, if you want to sling insults don't be surprised when someone bites back harder.

But on the deeper point, I'll freely admit I don't know anything about the science of modelling pandemics. I doubt you do and I know fpot doesn't.

However what I do know is that the people who do it for a living don't agree on models at this point and I do know the 60% infected number is based on an assumption *of no government intervention at all*. I know this because Dr Birx said so and she is a world leading expert on the matter.

So if some who says you are dumb for not accepting their so called mathematically certain figures it is perfectly reasonable to question what entitles them to claim certainty.
06:13pm 28/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24628 posts
Why stop at saying someone is dumb? Normally fpot calls people he disagrees with a bag of s*** and he wishes death upon them.

Admin sanctioned behaviour.
06:52pm 28/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4022 posts
Trog
speaker of just genuine deads*** leadership decisions, can someone explain to me why hairdressers are considered critical services at this time

Fpot
I've been off work sick for a while now and if you could see me you'd instantly know the answer to that question.


You reckon that's the internet forum equivalent of trog installing a bidet? Might be related.

While you are here infi could you step through for hogfather how often fpot talks about your family situation as it relates to you owning a business?

In answer to trogs question, one reason might be to think about how many single mothers hairdress. Just a thought.

whining about moderation is against the rules, but you know there are no admins right; I no longer work for AG and noone else is stupid enough to read this thread. why do you think it sucks so much in here


Yeah for some bizarre reason I got a post limiter of one hour for the first time in 14 years right after I started saying Trump's election has sensible reasons and talking to people who disagree like fpot does.

The other, other day there was a person on the internet who openly repeats and promotes the lies of what will turn out to be the deadliest and most damaging administration ever to grace the United States. This person is also a simpering, cowardly racist who maintains a weak front of lies and faux-libertarian beliefs to hide this fact. They are a massive bag of s*** and while I don't wish death upon them I can't help but see the net negative influence he and his ilk inflict upon the world. We're getting a real life, real time demonstration of it right now. It ain't good.


Oh feeling fairly comfortable reminding everyone this person is a sad vicious uneducated moron. Who also happens to be obviously deeply insecure about their intellect and position in the world and finds solace from his manifest insecurities and shortcomings as a person in the new woke religion.
07:14pm 28/03/20 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39924 posts
Admin sanctioned behaviour.
whining about moderation is against the rules, but you know there are no admins right; I no longer work for AG and noone else is stupid enough to read this thread. why do you think it sucks so much in here
07:21pm 28/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26970 posts
The other day I was seasoning a piece of tubed meat with my favourite conserve tomato sauce. The person next to me said they preferred BBQ sauce. I disagreed with them and ate my delicious tomato sauced sausage.

The other, other day there was a person on the internet who openly repeats and promotes the lies of what will turn out to be the deadliest and most damaging administration ever to grace the United States. This person is also a simpering, cowardly racist who maintains a weak front of lies and faux-libertarian beliefs to hide this fact. They are a massive bag of s*** and while I don't wish death upon them I can't help but see the net negative influence he and his ilk inflict upon the world. We're getting a real life, real time demonstration of it right now. It ain't good.
07:32pm 28/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6260 posts
Oh feeling fairly comfortable reminding everyone this person is a sad vicious uneducated moron. Who also happens to be obviously deeply insecure about their intellect and position in the world and finds solace from his manifest insecurities and shortcomings as a person in the new woke religion.


Here we have a perfect display of psychological projection, everybody.
08:26am 29/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
840 posts
The WHO in January was peddling the Chinese propaganda lie that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission. Who wants to wager fpot and Vash were full send into that particular narrative at the time? I would, because they're both incapable of their own individual thought processes.

But instead now it's Trump's bluster (not his actions by the way) that will definitely lead to 1.4million deaths in the US bare minimum.

fpot and Vash have been 100% wrong on every single geopolitical event in the last 4 years (and I would say by extension their entire lives but I haven't kept track) so when they're 100% wrong on this it will be just about time for the next pending catastrophe that is completely Trump's fault.

All the while, mind you, they 100% ignore criticising anyone other than Trump whilst simultaneously accusing people of being incapable of criticising Trump.
10:22am 29/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6261 posts

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/reasons-china-coronavirus-data-may-be-trustworthy-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

an article explaining why China's figures maybe trustworthy this time around. While they did act to suppress information about it before hand, they appear to be transparent with once it became a pandemic, and no real indicators besides their previous actions on the numbers being wrong at this time.
I think it would be fairly obvious if China wasn't being honest with their infection & fatality rates, the Chinese can still access international social media by VPN.

And sorry dazed, you dont really have a leg to stand on when it comes to recognizing what is right or wrong.
11:14am 29/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4023 posts
Yeah except for lying about when the disease states, the potential for human to human transmission, the number of people who left the affected area, destroying evidence at the first affected area, trying to peddle a conspiracy theory that the US army spread the disease, disappearing critics, shutting all cinemas two days ago with no explanation, selling testing kits with an 80% failure rates and a well established history of fabricating statistics about almost everything, China have been a picture of transparency.

But their stats dashboard sure is easy to use.
In China, by comparison, the National Health Commission (NHC) has been aggregating all of its coronavirus information on its website and releasing predictable, daily updates since February 3.


So you know swings and roundabouts. At least we can easily access their made up numbers.
12:06pm 29/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26971 posts
Here we have a perfect display of psychological projection, everybody.
He's so sensitive and precious. You guys should be nicer to him.
12:56pm 29/03/20 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1280 posts

Vash has a surprisingly high level of confidence in the integrity of communist China.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/china-is-pushing-a-zero-myth-on-covid-19-and-attacking-press-freedom/

Another a Chinese sympathiser wired to the communist machine, here to spread the great message of how wonderful China is. Go communism! There's no shortage of your kind in this, and many nations Vash.


02:47pm 29/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6263 posts

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/technology/coronavirus-fauci-trump-conspiracy-target.html


At a White House briefing on the coronavirus on March 20, President Trump called the State Department the “Deep State Department.” Behind him, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, dropped his head and rubbed his forehead.

Some thought Dr. Fauci was slighting the president, leading to a vitriolic online reaction. On Twitter and Facebook, a post that falsely claimed he was part of a secret cabal who opposed Mr. Trump was soon shared thousands of times, reaching roughly 1.5 million people.

A week later, Dr. Fauci — the administration’s most outspoken advocate of emergency measures to fight the coronavirus outbreak — has become the target of an online conspiracy theory that he is mobilizing to undermine the president.

An analysis by The New York Times found over 70 accounts on Twitter that have promoted the hashtag #FauciFraud, with some tweeting as frequently as 795 times a day. The anti-Fauci sentiment is being reinforced by posts from Tom Fitton, the president of Judicial Watch, a conservative group; Bill Mitchell, host of the far-right online talk show “YourVoice America”; and other outspoken Trump supporters such as Shiva Ayyadurai, who has falsely claimed to be the inventor of email.


the right arent too bright.
02:51pm 29/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4024 posts
Well I for one am glad the paper of record is tracking 70 Twitter accounts instead of on ongoing disinformation campaign by a rival great power, after spending three years telling us Russian super Twitter powers.

That's some serious smarts right there.
05:40pm 29/03/20 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24629 posts
That is awesome journalism by an undergraduate freerlancer they probably bought for a burrito and a used iPhone right there, and yet they still buy into the "Trump colluded with Russia" bulls***.
06:15pm 29/03/20 Permalink
Vash
6264 posts
Those twitter accounts include major voices with large audiences on your side, dummy.
06:15pm 29/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17000 posts
Of course the President is not 'solely' responsible. Not sure anyone had claimed that PP, I sure as he'll didn't, so its a kind of odd question to ask me.

The reality is that POTUS has erroneously downplayed the impact of the defining issue of his term. He has for weeks been providing advice and information in direct contradiction to his expert team led by Dr Fauci. This can only have harmed the US' attempts to limit mixing events by muddying the message.

He is not an expert and should not be using press releases and interviews to give unqualified off the cuff advice about a pandemic. It's absurd that you give him a pass here and abject proof of a failure to think critically in the face of your political biases.

Also, 2k deaths in the States as of today. Yes I'm not an epidemiologist either but I remember Stats 1001.
06:21pm 29/03/20 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
4025 posts
Of course the President is not 'solely' responsible. Not sure anyone had claimed that PP, I sure as he'll didn't, so its a kind of odd question to ask me.

Here is fpot saying exactly that
Has his continued, on record denial and talking down the situation caused it to spread faster in the USA?

Absolutely undeniably yes and it has cost at an extremely conservative guess thousands of lives.


So I ask to distinguish you from that.

It's absurd that you give him a pass here and abject proof of a failure to think critically in the face of your political biases.


But I don't. I'm pretty sure every post I've addressed to you has discussed the issues with the CDC and testing which he bears some responsibility for. But as I've also said that situation is more complicated than simply Trump's bluster in press conferences. For example it is incomprehensible to me the private sector was blocked from providing/administering tests, but that was not regulation which Trump enacted. However what I also see a great deal of is a desire to paint his words in there worst possible light. For a particularly good example this see that fiasco with the Malaria drugs.

Also, 2k deaths in the States as of today. Yes I'm not an epidemiologist either but I remember Stats 1001.

Yeah I'm comfortable with with reading an x^y graph as well.

But one reason it might be good to understand how the models arrange their curves in detailis virus transmission rates are complicated and non-linear so the models toss out numbers that vary hugely depending on what assumptions you use.

But as I noted, the idea of R0 is based on the premise that people behave with some constancy over time, since the value isn’t an inherent biological constant associated with any particular pathogen; it’s basically a composite statistic that imputes everything from human sociology to hygiene practices to environmental conditions. And it can change in an instant when people are told to, oh, say, avoid sneezing in each other’s faces. And since R0-based models are (like disease spread itself) non-linear systems typically based on large numbers of iterations, even small changes in effective R0 can lead to wildly divergent values. That’s why the same British expert who very recently warned us of 500,000 COVID-19 deaths in Britain now says he expects fewer than 20,000.


I listened to a podcast with Scott Gottlieb this morning and he seemed to imply he expects to see US cases peak around 500,000 if mitigation goes well for the next month. Part of the reason for that is that the US doesn't have 1 curve it has 50 and all the curves have different mitigation strategies in place and are mostly earlier in the curve than NYC is. He also pointed out the curve looks steeper than it actually is at the moment because they are clearing backlog so the effect of mitigation will be distorted in the stats right now.

In any case.

Here is where I think we agree. Trump's bluster is unhelpful. I have my doubts about its measurable impact but it would be better if we could live without it.

He should have been working to have the testing capacity they have now in mid February.

However that is only one part of the overall response he has been involved with and other aspects have been done relatively well. For example implementing travel bans early.

I also agree the situation in new York is going to get very bad and soon. I doubt we will see 50000 deaths 14 days from now, but new York is going to be a big human toll, and from here it would be good to see Trump shut up and hose them with resources for the next month.
08:39pm 29/03/20 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
841 posts
Europe is a bit over twice the population of the US, but they currently have well over 10x the deaths and well over double the cases. Can we please get a genius explanation for this result from our resident brains trust fpot and Vash? Can we please also get a condemnation of European democratic socialism for letting this disaster happen?
03:48pm 30/03/20 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26974 posts
There's a reason dazed is asking me for an explanation and not posting it himself despite it taking about five seconds to google. It's so that if I did post it, he could attack something except the explanation itself. The source, the author, me. This is one way chuds keep their little fantasy lives intact. Sort of like being on the run their whole lives from the truth. Must be tiring.
04:15pm 30/03/20 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
17001 posts
I acknowledge you were able to find a quote from fpot. I also (perhaps stupidly) included others in my remark. To be clear, I don't speak for anyone else here.

Another day, another stupid interview. Today Trump accused first responders and medical staff of stealing urgently needed medical equipment.

Is the media painting POTUS' (imo deranged and disgusting) accusation in a poor light unfairly? I watched the vid and don'