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Political Thread 3
Vash
5907 posts
Pretty much do all those things as well Trog. Sold my car. I used to be a fossil fuel fiend when i was younger. Riding motos and fuel guzzling 4wds everywhere.
I'll miss those hobbies but those are the sacrifices we need to take.

Hopefully EV technology reaches a point where i can go remote in an EV 4WD like i used to.

But Infi will focus on you still using a car and say gotcha. and something about the elite not doing anything so he shouldn't.
02:52pm 22/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39741 posts
Motorbikes and scooters are really fuel efficient aren't they? One thing I've noticed since coming back to BNE is that there seem to be way more scooters on the roads (most of them seem to be delivery drivers, but still, it's good to see)
02:53pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5908 posts
Yes they are, but i was riding a hell of alot for recreational purposes, up to cape york and back to sydney, tassie etc.
I dont burn any fossil fuels now, at least not directly.
03:02pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3419 posts
PP, how you're a lawyer is beyond me

Well one reason is that I read things closely and carefully.

As opposed to someone who is saying people take things too literally and then does a word search for "irreversible".

Let me help you.

Bolded are the words that undermine your argument.

Some impacts may be long-lasting or irreversible, such as the loss of some ecosystems (high confidence).


A little bit more carefully worded than if we don't hit 1.5 degrees millions of people die for certain. To be crystal clear vash. Not a single impact could be irreversible and that statement will still be true.

Please tell me you not confusing annual cost with total cost.
Annual cost indicates total cost.


Yeah I know vash. So that would be a yes then. Wow you actually did exactly what AOC did. Figures.

So Bernie's plan might save money in 2032, but in the meantime it still costs 32 trillion. An explanation of how that prevents climate change is probably too much to ask for, but here is the thing vash. The money in the status quo is not all paid for by the state. It will be under Bernie's model. So the 'saving’ won't be realised by the government. It will have to foot a much larger bill than it ever did.

Now again on why I'm a lawyer. Agreeing the plan costs 32 trillion *doesn't*undermine my argument that the plan costs 32 trillion.
03:23pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5909 posts
Yes if we're being literal, you said there is no mention of irreversible. So there it is. We shouldn't go too far into the details now, because we're only being literal.

Now again on why I'm a lawyer. Agreeing the plan costs 32 trillion *doesn't*undermine my argument that the plan costs 32 trillion.


Haha. It completely dismantles your argument. Actually when i said the upfront cost is 32 trillion, that was wrong. The annual cost will actually go down for health care.
So to try and spin it your way just because the plan is stated to cost 32 trillion, despite that replacing the original system, and saving money, is frankly hilarious.

It just proves again you only think literally. The plan will cost 32 trillion. You're right. Now you cant think anywhere beyond that statement.

You're the embodiment of the dunning kruger effect, and im convinced you accuse me of it purely due to your own insecurities.
03:34pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3420 posts
Haha it's enjoyable watching your programming break. I like how you substitute in large passages of text you clearly don't understand like a program whose variables are too loosely defined.

Yes if we're being literal, you said there is no mention of irreversible. So there it is. We shouldn't go too far into the details now, because we're only being literal.

Well I didn't say the word doesn't appear. I said it doesn't say irreversible damage will as a matter of course happen.

Here is what I said vash and what I was responding to.

You

The IPCC says that irreversible damage will occur in 12 years time, you linked it yourself.

it absolutely doesn't say that.

me

No it doesn't vash. And it is not what I said. For the millionth time it says global carbon emissions have to be reduced by around 45% to limit warming to 1.5 degrees.

That's what it says. It doesn't say irreversible. And it doesn't say catastrophic climate change will definitely follow if the targets are not met.


As for the cost

Just to recap.

You said that I'd found an economist who'd overstated the cost by a multiple of 7.

I showed you that a single element of the plan costs nearly half the overall spend so your statement cannot possibly be true.

You now concede that one element does in fact cost about half the overall amount.

And somehow you get to this:

Haha. It completely dismantles your argument. Actually when i said the upfront cost is 32 trillion, that was wrong. The annual cost will actually go down for health care.
So to try and spin it your way just because the plan is stated to cost 32 trillion, despite that replacing the original system, and saving money, is frankly hilarious.


So it doesn't undermine my argument. Like at all.

We can go into why the saving doesn't alter the criticism but it's very very obvious you won't understand. But broad brush strokes.

Say two parties contribute 50% of the cost of a service. By having one party pay for it they can reduce the overall cost by 5%. The party who now pays 95% of the original amount does not pay less compared to what they were paying before.

The saving will not result in reduced government spending.


You're the embodiment of the dunning kruger effect, and im convinced you accuse me of it purely due to your own insecurities.


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.
04:49pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5910 posts
Well I didn't say the word doesn't appear.


Spinny spin spin

That's what it says. It doesn't say irreversible. And it doesn't say catastrophic climate change will definitely follow if the targets are not met.


Uh huh. Im just using your literality against you, maybe you'll figure out how ridiculous it is to argue this way.
So we can argue forever about what words or statements are in the report or not, or we can have a useful discussion about the actual effects of climate change, and how to beat it.
Would you say its important we take swift action within the next 12 years? If not, why?


I showed you that a single element of the plan costs nearly half the overall spend so your statement cannot possibly be true.


Yet that cost is void, because the budget will not see the 32 trillion spending. Infact there will be a 2 trillion surplus to the budget.


We can go into why the saving doesn't alter the criticism but it's very very obvious you won't understand. But broad brush strokes.


Do enlighten us with your supreme intelligence. You need to smash some mushrooms to get that ego of yours under control.

The saving will not result in reduced government spending.


Source?
05:18pm 22/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24260 posts
noone is trying to revert us back to the Stone Age


the US Democrats Green New Deal intends to remove the use of all fossil fuels within 10 years. and your extended self-defence (which I never asked for, because I don't expect it from anyone except those lecturing others to make cuts) is proof to my argument - we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.

Vash is the embodiment of a Marxist who would rather use the Government whip to drive this change. The problem is the aristocracy inevitably find themselves excluded. Funny that. The Pigs end up living inside the farmer's the house wearing human clothes.

renewables are just cheaper


renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.
05:33pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5911 posts
Vash is the embodiment of a Marxist who would rather use the Government whip to drive this change. The problem is the aristocracy inevitably find themselves excluded. Funny that. The Pigs end up living inside the farmer's the house wearing human clothes.


Remember who the author of Animal farm was? a devoted Socialist.

Climate change is a problem that is simply impossible to be fought against with a libertarian ideology. Without strong regulations on business and energy use, such as a carbon tax, there is zero incentive for a business to change its use of energy and other resources.

Government is literally the only way to force markets to greener options. And it certainly wont hurt the economy by doing so. Infact it may even strengthen it.


we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.


Yeah that doesn't work out so good. Like when we abolished the carbon tax, our emissions went back up. Regulation works. Telling people how to live doesn't. You're the perfect example of that.
05:54pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3421 posts
Spinny spin spin

Important to note you started this when the IPCC didn’t even support your climbdown. Doesn’t quite compute does it vash.

Uh huh. Im just using your literality against you, maybe you'll figure out how ridiculous it is to argue this way.


You're not though vash. See again, computer doesn't fully grasp what is happening. It's doing a naive substitution and misapplying. A little like

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0_ZCVf6h0koKAZnzr6L99IlubxA=/0x0:500x375/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:500x375):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10835833/n4scgse21iuz.jpg

The words you bolded don't literally mean the word irreversible doesn't appear in the IPCC report. They literally mean the IPCC document doesn't claim something will be irreversible and wait for it … it doesn't.

But the other reason you clearly don't understand the argument is that you clearly do believe the literal interpretation of the end of the world scenario. You've repeatedly mentioned how people will die in greater numbers than in any war.

Let me make this crystal clear. There is no reasonable interpretation of the IPCC document which supports that point of view. But it doesn't even support your climb down position.

None of that is to say nothing should be done. But a careful thoughtful managed approach to climate change will resolve it. Panicked hysteria will resolve nothing because it never does, and that is exactly what the green new deal is. Before you prattle on about how amazing it is, keep in mind the Dems didn’t include AOC’s document in the bill they passed. So her own party rejected her plan. Guess they must be engaging in the politics of fear too. Pelosi insulted her so savagely over it AOC doesn’t even appear to know she was insulted.

Yet that cost is void, because the budget will not see the 32 trillion spending. Infact there will be a 2 trillion surplus to the budget.


you don't know what single payer means do you. Getting the entire US health spend on the government's books is the point. The 2 trillion in savings reduces the overall spend from 34 trillion to 32 trillion, but most of it under the current arrangement is not spent by the government. And just so you know, a 2 trillion dollar *surplus* puts your accounting of the spend out by 36 trillion dollars. *edit* actually nix that, its out by 68 trillion because they spend the 32, so they would need 34 in credits to realise a *surplus* of 2. */edit*

As for my source for the claim, it’s the document you quoted from.

here you go champ.

But Sanders is right that the study concludes that his plan would reduce overall spending on health care in the United States. Most U.S. spending on health care is done through the private sector. Sanders’s plan would transition virtually all of that spending to the public sector, dramatically increasing government expenditures on health care while also reducing national health-care spending overall, according to the report.


And again

“I don’t look at this report and say it is a partisan hack job: The basic idea the Sanders plan would require a substantial increase in federal budget outlays is correct,” Pollack said. “But over the long run, the Sanders people are very correct that you could implement a system like this that would be more disciplined, more economical and more fair than the current U.S. health system.”


The plan is accepted by everyone including Sanders as requiring a dramatic expansion of government spending.

Any time you want to make the link as to why it is necessary to addressing climate change just get on in there.
07:09pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2289 posts
renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.

That's because the externalities of fossil fuels aren't a part of what you can sell petrol, coal and gas for.
07:18pm 22/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24261 posts
The levy isn't to price externalities, it's to subsidise renewable projects, home and large scale.

It's part of Australia's unenviable award as the most expensive energy in the world. And we have so much coal. See that's how government enslaves the masses in Marxist programs. Bill them just to live.
07:42pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5912 posts

None of that is to say nothing should be done. But a careful thoughtful managed approach to climate change will resolve it.


Okay, so you're doing the Infi thing. Waffle on about the opposing proposed deal, instead offering zero alternative solutions. Because you dont have any. Now you're very quick to criticise AOC, yet we hear very little on precious Trump. Ever seen his climate change policy?

And on health care, its important to note the study was funded by the koch brothers backed libertarian think tank. It's like getting the IPA to do a study on whether the ABC should be privatised or not.

But getting into it further : https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/aug/03/bernie-sanders/did-conservative-study-show-big-savings-bernie-san/

The study proposed two outcomes, there will be a $2 trillion saving, or a $3 trillion increase annually. There was no conclusion on which scenario will happen.


Medicare for All would result in significant savings for the country because of lower prescription drug costs, saving $846 billion over the next decade. Streamlined administrative costs under the plan would save another $1.6 trillion, the researchers at the Mercatus Center found.


So even if the cost does blow out to $3 trillion a year, families will be paying far less for healthcare, giving them a large relief on cost of living pressures. This will give more people disposable income, stimulating the economy, and offsetting some of the expense with more tax revenue.
He's really just proposing what we already enjoy here in Australia.

Do you like Medicare & the PBS in Australia, PP? At the time of its proposal im sure conservatives were crying about the cost. But the benefits have far outweighed the cost.
08:16pm 22/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24262 posts
America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...
08:34pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5913 posts
America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...


Yeah most of the world will need be dealing with that one in various ways. America needs to join the rest of the first world and get universal health care already. No excuse for the richest country in the world.
08:46pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3422 posts
Okay, so you're doing the Infi thing. Waffle on about the opposing proposed deal, instead offering zero alternative solutions. Because you dont have any. Now you're very quick to criticise AOC, yet we hear very little on precious Trump. Ever seen his climate change policy?


I don't know vash why don't you ask the house democrats who rejected it out of hand with no alternative. They landed on no plan is better than a bats*** insane one rather than play oh well what is trump doing game. Or do they all need to be woken up by totally not the politics of fear.

And on health care, its important to note the study was funded by the koch brothers backed libertarian think tank. It's like getting the IPA to do a study on whether the ABC should be privatised or not.


Yeah so the George Soros, sorry the Koch brothers angle would be more convincing if in the article you link to old mate Bernie didn't say this.

Sanders said, "Let me thank the Koch Brothers of all people for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare for All would save the American people $2 trillion over a 10-year period. … That is what is in the study of the Mercatus Center."

Here comes a vash special.

So even if the cost does blow out to $3 trillion a year, families will be paying far less for healthcare, giving them a large relief on cost of living pressures.


Even if the *total us spend on healthcare increases 3 trillion*, people will still save money. Yes vash. Did you get confused between one of two scenarios?

80% of the time it works every time.

Do you like Medicare & the PBS in Australia, PP?


I do vash. But it's not a relevant question. We aren't debating if I want universal healthcare. We are debating the cost of a specific proposal.
09:04pm 22/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39743 posts
the US Democrats Green New Deal intends to remove the use of all fossil fuels within 10 years
... and replace them, with a Manhattan-project-level effort, with renewables. This is like, the first line of their plan.

Again: noone is going to take away your electricity.
. and your extended self-defence (which I never asked for, because I don't expect it from anyone except those lecturing others to make cuts) is proof to my argument - we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.
... which you never asked for, except in your repeated questions about what everyone else was doing (except me I guess), so you can apply the perfection fallacy to everyone else who fails to stop flying on private jets
renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.
those two sentences don't logically follow in any way, but... what provider are you with?! Origin Qld charges 2c per kwH more for 25% "GreenPower" with a usual base rate of around 28c/kWh.
09:07pm 22/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39744 posts
America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...
I thought this was stupid until I heard about 'MMT'.

Maybe taggs can explain it in more detail but basically, my understanding (from having listened to several podcasts and read articles by economists) is that money can magically be created forever, with no repercussions whatsoever. This is basically what we've been doing for the last decade and noone has caught on yet so therefore it will always work. (I might be missing some nuance.)
09:09pm 22/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24263 posts
I have read and critiqued MMT in detail on twitter. It's just a fancy word for fiscal slobbishness.
09:14pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5914 posts
I don't know vash why don't you ask the house democrats who rejected it out of hand with no alternative. They landed on no plan is better than a bats*** insane one rather than play oh well what is trump doing game. Or do they all need to be woken up by totally not the politics of fear.


Oh theres the deflection. Im asking you, not the democrats. AOC is as much a democrat as Sanders is. Which is far from the neoliberal politics of the democrats.

Yeah so the George Soros, sorry the Koch brothers angle would be more convincing if in the article you link to old mate Bernie didn't say this.


Yup, and the think tank didnt like that did they? So they came up with the alternative cost blow up scenario. Have to wonder.

Even if the *total us spend on healthcare increases 3 trillion*, people will still save money. Yes vash. Did you get confused between one of two scenarios?


So, how about we compare Australia's universal health care cost, which is 3.6% of GDP, with the USA, at 3.7%. I think the $3 trillion figure might just be a very inaccurate prediction. Now if we get a less biased 'think tank' on the case for a more varied opinion, that would be interesting to see.

Edit:
Oops, looks like those GDP figures are out. It's closer to 10% for Australia, and 18% for USA.
09:24pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2290 posts
10:10pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3423 posts
Oh theres the deflection. Im asking you, not the democrats. AOC is as much a democrat as Sanders is. Which is far from the neoliberal politics of the democrats.


Actually vash demanding an alternative to a delusional fantasy documents that your girl couldn't get past the party she is registered with is the deflection.

Yup, and the think tank didnt like that did they? So they came up with the alternative cost blow up scenario. Have to wonder.


And into outright conspiracy theory. Those tricksy Koch brothers could have rigged he study to not help Sanders at all, but instead they went with it might save money and it might not. On f*****g purpose.

So, how about we compare Australia's universal health care cost, which is 3.6% of GDP, with the USA, at 3.7%. I think the $3 trillion figure might just be a very inaccurate prediction. Now if we get a less biased 'think tank' on the case for a more varied opinion, that would be interesting to see.


Yeah so if the overall spend goes up vash it will take up a larger % of GDP.
10:15pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5915 posts
So you dont have an alternative plan for climate change. Guess you'll just have to support AOC since its the only one that takes the action required.

It's almost like libertarian think tanks have an agenda to reduce government spending as much as possible. You know, thats their philosophy after all. Straight to the conspiracy accusation bin.

So why did their initial study state that there would be a $2 trillion saving, then later say there could be a $3 trillion blow out, straight after Sanders thanked them for their assistance?

PP, all the countries with universal health care have far less GDP % health care spending than the USA. It might just be the $2 trillion surplus is accurate.

This says it all.
10:24pm 22/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3424 posts
So you dont have an alternative plan for climate change. Guess you'll just have to support AOC since its the only one that takes the action required.


Ah well that's not quite true. There's the democrats do nothing at all rather than AOC's plan plan. I could also wait to see what others come up with. You know people who actually understand the issues as opposed to grandstand on them.

Now vash we've already established that AOC's plan is based on the assumption that catastrophic climate change will be irreversible in 12 years and that the assumption isn't supported by the evidence. And you've yet to cover how universal healthcare is required to address climate change at all. So I could disagree purely on the fact is demanding at least 32 trillion that won't address climate change at all.


It's almost like libertarian think tanks have an agenda to reduce government spending as much as possible. You know, thats their philosophy after all. Straight to the conspiracy accusation bin.


Yes vash. Just to remind you of three hours ago.


But he went for the ole Marxist deep state conspiracy that all tin hat crazies go for.


But it’s (not) different when you do it. Moving right along


So why did their initial study state that there would be a $2 trillion saving, then later say there could be a $3 trillion blow out, straight after Sanders thanked them for their assistance?


Because vash in economic modelling you test multiple models based on varying assumptions. They didn't “later” say it would cost 3 trillion. The same study gave a range of possible outcomes.

So when you say one end of the range is there to f*** with Sanders because it's a neoliberal think tank when they are just doing normal economic modelling, yes you're engaging in conspiracy theories. They could have rigged to say no outcome saves money.


PP, all the countries with universal health care have far less GDP % health care spending than the USA. It might just be the $2 trillion surplus is accurate.


Yes vash and if the us doesn't reduce is total spend on healthcare it will continue to spend a higher % of GDP on healthcare. This really isn't difficult.

Now as for a 2 trillion *surplus* no country in the world achieves a *surplus* from its health spending. A surplus would require them to *make* money from supplying healthcare.
11:48pm 22/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5916 posts
Now as for a 2 trillion *surplus* no country in the world achieves a *surplus* from its health spending. A surplus would require them to *make* money from supplying healthcare.


Heh wow. Your post isnt even worth replying to after that one.



Its happening! Feeeel the Bern.
01:17am 23/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3425 posts

Heh wow. Your post isnt even worth replying to after that one.


Oh why's that vash, because you don't have a response.

To be a surplus either they need to make money or the economy has to expand by more than the amount spent.

So seeing as you like to take about global GDP as a scawy figure. To deliver a surplus and not just a saving the US economy would need to expand by nearly half of global GDP in order to achieve a surplus.

Let me help with that. It isn't going to happen.

And you still can't show why it's necessary to deal with climate change.

Just to make it clear the candidates AOC backed in the midterms were disastrous. She doesn't enjoy grassroots support.

What's particularly funny about how stupid you are is that you've demonstrated repeatedly in this little exchange that you haven't read the IPCC report on climate change. You're not across the facts of the only thing that you say you vote about. You clearly didn't know what single payer health care actually is because you said it doesn't require government expenditure (despite what Sanders himself says). You don't know the difference between saving and surplus. F*** you didn't even know the difference between annual and total cost. And yet. The sheeple (who constitute more than 90% of the population who don't share your views) won't vote for policies you like because they are 'uneducated'.

Have you ever even done a back of the envelope of your carbon footprint? If we're all going to die it seems pretty irresponsible to not have at least an idea of what you contribute to the problem.
07:19am 23/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5917 posts
You know perfectly well why you dont deserve a response to your post. and if you don't know, then you're way more stupid than i thought. Noone is saying Bernie's plan is going to make money. It's going to save money. Just look at the countries that already have universal health.

And on climate change, well you sure got backed into a corner on that one, as i predicted.
08:45am 23/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3426 posts
You know perfectly well why you dont deserve a response to your post. and if you don't know, then you're way more stupid than i thought.

Yeah so throwing your toys out the basket when you've been spanked vash doesn't mean you won.

Noone is saying Bernie's plan is going to make money. It's going to save money. Just look at the countries that already have universal health.


Yeah you do because you keep using the word surplus. Like when you said cost of a single payer health system wouldn't end up on the government books and in fact there would be a 2 trillion surplus.

Quick explainer on why I'm not being "literal". You used the word surplus correctly in context. You just are to dumb to correctly draw the context.

And on climate change, well you sure got backed into a corner on that one, as i predicted.


Yep so you don't know what your carbon footprint is Mr climate change will kill everyone (not the politics of fear TM).

Really got me there when you were forced to concede the IPCC agrees with me, and therefore doesn't justify AOC's hair on fire hysterics, and you said the Democrat party were all neolibs with their head in the sand. That was a tough corner you put me in.
08:56am 23/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39745 posts
those two sentences don't logically follow in any way, but... what provider are you with?! Origin Qld charges 2c per kwH more for 25% "GreenPower" with a usual base rate of around 28c/kWh.
did you find the answer to this? my stupid one year period is up with my electricity provider so I'm spending some time this week looking at providers for a better deal, so maybe I can keep an eye out for a better business offering

(if I wasn't already convinced that the state should be the sole provider of energy in a country, spending an hour this morning trying to navigate the "market" would have)
02:04pm 23/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2291 posts

The levy isn't to price externalities, it's to subsidise renewable projects, home and large scale.

It's part of Australia's unenviable award as the most expensive energy in the world. And we have so much coal. See that's how government enslaves the masses in Marxist programs. Bill them just to live.


f*** are you serious, it is capitalism that is creating slaves.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/muffin-break-boss-fury-over-youth-who-wont-work-unpaid/news-story/57607ea9a1bbe52ba7746cff031306f2

I was just thinking on how i hadn't heard the trope about cultural marxism for a bit but here we are just before an election.
08:04pm 23/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5918 posts
Heh yeah. And the wall of text moron tries to compare Infi's Marxism conspiracy with me stating that a libertarian think tank doing a costs study on universal health care, might just have a bias against such a policy.

That's why you just don't bother with PP. But it was fun until you realise he wont shut up and admit defeat. At least Infi does.
08:57pm 23/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24264 posts
the beauty of capitalism is that if you dont want to work for free, you don't have to. marxism on the other hand makes you do ALL SORTS OF STUFF otherwise you die in a work camp or prison.

What would happen if I didn't pay my 15% renewable energy levy? I AM A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR. the people who are on low incomes just get f***ed by Big Brother again.

edit: I worked for free all summer in 1997. for a union. it ended up getting me a job offer. kids these days....
09:38pm 23/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2292 posts
Lol kids these days, call someone in the press, have I got a pull myself up by the bootstraps story here.

I cannot wait for cultural Marxism to send us all to the salt mines, because that's what happens when you do social programs.
09:48pm 23/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3427 posts
Heh yeah. And the wall of text moron tries to compare Infi's Marxism conspiracy with me stating that a libertarian think tank doing a costs study on universal health care, might just have a bias against such a policy.


Because it's the same vash. In a situation where Sanders himself accepted the validity study you claimed the tricksy George Soros, sorry koch brothers revised their study to get Bernie.


That's why you just don't bother with PP. But it was fun until you realise he wont shut up and admit defeat. At least Infi does.


Haha poor little vash has been whipped and has to hide under the leg of his betters.
10:36pm 23/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24265 posts

Lol kids these days, call someone in the press, have I got a pull myself up by the bootstraps story here.


Working for free now for a future pay-off is offensive to a philosophy of greed and entitlemt.
10:58pm 23/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2293 posts
Im guessing you had backing to work for free?

Not everyone has this. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
11:06pm 23/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5919 posts
the beauty of capitalism is that if you dont want to work for free, you don't have to. marxism on the other hand makes you do ALL SORTS OF STUFF otherwise you die in a work camp or prison.


How on earth did you manage to think this nugget up?
The Gulags were a creation by Stalin, it has nothing to do with Marxism. There's a reason his ideology was named 'Stalinism'. Think outside the libertarian circle jerk, Infi. Also, in Capitalism, it makes you do all sorts of stuff otherwise you die.
11:20pm 23/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3428 posts
Int main(){
Printf("real socialism has never been tried");
}
12:00am 24/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24266 posts
Im guessing you had backing to work for free?

Not everyone has this. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.


THEN DON'T DO IT. Jerks who think staff will work for free in menial jobs will end up with no staff. Quit crying about it and just get a different job. The entire proposition that someone would even work for free if there was nothing else in it for them is laughable. Like they had a gun to their head.

In certain circumstances people will want to work for free to prove their worth. They should be free to make that personal choice.
12:07am 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5920 posts
Heh PP as predictable as ever. Authoritarianism is not an economic system, FYI. But thats alittle too difficult for you to grasp.

Infi loves to reference Animal farm. The author is a Socialist and absolutely despised the Soviet Union. Why have there only been Authoritarian Socialist Governments? Easy. All you need to do is look at the U.S influences in their elections and hard sanctions on their economies. They have little choice but to tighten the grip to prevent the U.S from installing their own stooge. Oh and before you throw the conspiracy theory accusation, this is well documented in CIA files.
12:19am 24/02/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
665 posts



f*** are you serious, it is capitalism that is creating slaves.


Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.
12:37am 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5921 posts


Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.


Yup. You know Marx said Capitalism was useful for rapid growth of technology. Capitalism is a system to progress to Socialism and eventually Communism, and can only do so when the conditions are met, which is when Capitalism reaches the end of the road. Capitalism cannot survive without human labor. And we know Automation is going to replace a hell of alot of jobs, and it's alot different compared to when the Computer was invented.
Marx was even talking about full Automation of the work force back in the 1800s.
01:07am 24/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3429 posts
Heh PP as predictable as ever.


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.

Why have there only been Authoritarian Socialist Governments? Easy. All you need to do is look at the U.S influences in their elections and hard sanctions on their economies


Int main(){
Printf("real socialism has never been tried");
}

Let's look at Venezuela. They had US sanctions on about 10 people put in place by Obama until a month ago.

Yep 'sanctions' on the inner circle of Maduros government forces Maduro to become an authoritarian murderer.

Until then it was puppies rainbows and lollipops for all the children all the time.
09:07am 24/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39746 posts
What would happen if I didn't pay my 15% renewable energy levy?
hey what company are you with that charges this levy? is this in Queensland?
10:03am 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5922 posts

Looks like Manafort is going to jail for awhile. Alot of criminals associated with Trump. What's so great about this is the drain the swamp mantra that was constantly chanted. I'd love it if AOC started the real drain the swamp movement.
And people who watch fox news actually think there is a conspiracy within the FBI to get rid of Trump. Despite them investigating Hilary's emails. Such an odd bunch.

Yeah PP, putting hard sanctions on their state oil companies is really going to help them get out of this situation. The U.S can't wait to get their stooge in.
Every situation is different. Vietnam, invasion. Cuba, assassination attempts, hard sanctions. USSR, cold war, which starved their economy. The USSR, a union that went to space and had a booming economy. The USSR also dealt with very heavy casualties after WW2, and were at a severe disadvantage in competing with the U.S safely tucked across the atlantic.

Efforts by the United States to support anti-Communist forces in Chile date back to the late 1950s and reflect the rivalry between the United States and the Soviet Union for influence throughout the Third World. The growing strength of the Chilean left, along with continuing fragmentation by conservative and moderate political forces, became increasing concerns through the 1960 70s to the United States, which wanted to avoid the emergence of “another Cuba” in the Western Hemisphere. According to the Church Committee report, in their meeting with CIA Director Richard Helms and Attorney General John Mitchell on 15 September 1970 President Nixon and his National Security Advisor, Henry Kissinger, directed the CIA to prevent Allende from taking power. They were “not concerned [about the] risks involved,” according to Helms’ notes. In addition to political action, Nixon and Kissinger, according to Helms’s notes, ordered steps to “make the economy scream.”
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/

This shows President Nixon's CIA order to destroy Socialist economies. And obviously it goes beyond just sanctions.

Not all of the countries failed due to the U.S, especially Venezuela heavily relying on high oil prices to cover its social spending. This could easily happen in any economy. It's mismanagement, and despite Venezuela having a 70% private market. (that should convince you that its not even really Socialism in the first place)
So that is a Government failure, not a Socialism failure.

Also interestingly, there is still huge public support for Maduro. I suppose people know what the U.S is up to by endorsing the opposition leader.

Regardless of that, as i say often elsewhere, Capitalism & Socialism can't co exist. Capitalism will always win. But we know that Capitalism won't survive when technology replaces human labor.


04:32pm 24/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3430 posts
Yeah PP, putting hard sanctions on their state oil companies is really going to help them get out of this situation. The U.S can't wait to get their stooge in.


Yes vash. Their stooge who won an election and doesn't need to butcher his people in the streets or refuse to allow good aid into the country.

Vash the US didn't place oil trade sanctions on Venezuela until this year.

You don't know what you're talking about. Just mind bendingly ignorant. Just so you know. The claim the us systematically forced socialist countries to become authoritarian through pressure on there economies is a) a socialist conspiracy theory (so well done Koch brothers boy); and b) fairly damaging to the idea the Nordic countries are socialist because the US didn't do it to them.
05:23pm 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5923 posts
The stooge you speak of didn't win an election to the presidency. He's merely a puppet of the U.S who will privatise the state oil companies and sell it off to them as thanks.
So the U.S is circumventing and colluding in Venezuela's democracy.
They are already in a dire situation, and the U.S is putting on further sanctions shows they don't care about Venezuelan people, they are doing so to cripple the country further to create a path to a coup.

Projection again, PP. You have no clue how much the U.S influences and attempts to control other country's Governments.
This isn't a conspiracy. It's in the CIA files. Which you clearly passed over. What a surprise.

Remember Cuba and the constant assassination attempts?
And now Trump says military intervention is an option. How about all those other countries that are causing significant harm to it's people? You know what's missing from those countries? Rich oil reserves.

Except the Nordic countries aren't Socialist. I never claimed they were. The meme i posted went straight over your head. It was to ridicule people like you and Infi, as any social programs proposed in the U.S that the Nordic nations already have is quickly labelled Socialism. But then you say they aren't Socialist when it suits you.

Think outside your bubble for once.
06:04pm 24/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3431 posts
The stooge you speak of didn't win an election to the presidency. He's merely a puppet of the U.S who will privatise the state oil companies and sell it off to them as thanks.
So the U.S is circumventing and colluding in Venezuela's democracy.
They are already in a dire situation, and the U.S is putting on further sanctions shows they don't care about Venezuelan people, they are doing so to cripple the country further to create a path to a coup.


Vash this paragraph is entirely fact free. Venezuela's democracy. Actually loled. Maduros forces are gunning people as we speak vash. As in right now.

Projection again, PP. You have no clue how much the U.S influences and attempts to control other country's Governments.
This isn't a conspiracy. It's in the CIA files. Which you clearly passed over. What a surprise.


You're not capable of reading vash. I said the idea that the US forces them to become authoritarian through economic manipulation is a conspiracy theory. And guess what. Your links don't undermine that argument.

Remember Cuba and the constant assassination attempts?


Castro routinely executed his political opponents vash. The idea that the US "forced" him to is delusional. Hence a conspiracy theory. See a good conspiracy theory always has some factual element that can allow for weirdos to contort off. The fact that Castro was openly hostile to the US from the outset and decided to park Soviet nukes 90 miles from the US just doesn't enter the equation.


Except the Nordic countries aren't Socialist. I never claimed they were. The meme i posted went straight over your head.


Oh good then you can clarify what you meant by this comment.

Had to unblock our local troll to see it. Can confirm, wasn't worth watching.


I assume you meant it wasn't worth watching, because you agreed with the points he was making and you already understood agreed with it all. I guess now you'll be strongly advocating for the abolition of the minimum wage because the Nordic countries don't have them.
06:52pm 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5924 posts
Vash this paragraph is entirely fact free. Venezuela's democracy. Actually loled. Maduros forces are gunning people as we speak vash. As in right now.


Well they are. They have a constitution and separation of powers. And they have elections. So.. yeah, a democracy.
Just because the Government's military is killing people doesn't exclude this fact. Now are the elections legit? No conclusive evidence on that as yet. But seeing the massive gathering of crowd's that was posted on Reddit, and people assuming it was the anti Maduro rally, turns out it wasn't.


You're not capable of reading vash. I said the idea that the US forces them to become authoritarian through economic manipulation is a conspiracy theory. And guess what. Your links don't undermine that argument.


It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a theory grounded on facts. A Socialist nation is forced to be isolationist and authoritarian in the presence of a world dominated Capitalist economy. Think abit about it PP. Check the CIA files, and how many interventions the U.S does. They are literally forced to run their Government this way.

Castro routinely executed his political opponents vash. The idea that the US "forced" him to is delusional. Hence a conspiracy theory. See a good conspiracy theory always has some factual element that can allow for weirdos to contort off. The fact that Castro was openly hostile to the US from the outset and decided to park Soviet nukes 90 miles from the US just doesn't enter the equation.


Yes, they did. Many of them fled to the U.S. I dont agree with killing political opponents, but hey.. Guess what the U.S does? The same thing.
Not domestically mind you. But its the same thing. The U.S has killed alot of Socialists. So whys it so horrible for Socialist regimes to do it, but not the U.S?
Also, The U.S parked nukes in Europe. Cuba and the USSR had it in their right to do the same.
07:12pm 24/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3432 posts
Well they are. They have a constitution and separation of powers. And they have elections. So.. yeah, a democracy.
Just because the Government's military is killing people doesn't exclude this fact.


Ok Koch brothers boy. They have elections and when they don't go Maduro's way the army comes out and kills people. They have a "democracy". Proving convincingly again you don't get separation of powers.

The protests aren't really against Maduro. Yep uh huh.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a theory grounded on facts. A Socialist nation is forced to be isolationist and authoritarian in the presence of a world dominated Capitalist economy. Think abit about it PP. Check the CIA files, and how many interventions the U.S does. They are literally forced to run their Government this way.


Vash communist Russia was authoritarian by 1920. During that period the US pursued an isolationist foreign policy. It was only after WW2 US took up the world police mantle.

You are talking flatout conspiracy theory. Socialism is authoritarian.

But please go on I'm curious to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Yes, they did. Many of them fled to the U.S. I dont agree with killing political opponents, but hey.. Guess what the U.S does? The same thing.
Not domestically mind you


Yeah so the "not domestically" is not a small deal vash. It's like the entire deal.

Also, The U.S parked nukes in Europe.


Where. Exactly where.
08:18pm 24/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2294 posts


Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.

matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.
08:27pm 24/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5925 posts

Ok Koch brothers boy. They have elections and when they don't go Maduro's way the army comes out and kills people. They have a "democracy". Proving convincingly again you don't get separation of powers. The protests aren't really against Maduro. Yep uh huh.


Yup. Also not sure why you keep referencing the koch brothers? It's on paper they funded the study we previously talked about.
Venezuela have 5 different branches of Government over the previous 3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Venezuela

Socialism is authoritarian.


Tell that to George Orwell. If he was alive.

Yeah so the "not domestically" is not a small deal vash. It's like the entire deal.


Uh huh. So murdering political opponents internationally is just fine then? Murder is only awful if its domestic. PP logic at its finest.

Where. Exactly where.
From the 1950s through the early 1990s, the U.S. government deployed nuclear weapons around the world, from the North Atlantic and Western Europe to South Korea, the Philippines, and the Western Pacific. Reflecting the East-West tensions of that period, the Pentagon deployed nearly 13,000 nuclear weapons outside the continental United States, with many of them (over 7,000) in NATO Europe. The deployments of nuclear weapons reflected U.S. and NATO war plans at the time as well as the conviction of U.S. government officials that the deployments would demonstrate the U.S. commitment to the security of alliance partners around the world; it was a sign to an adversary that military action against a U.S. ally carried the risk of escalating into nuclear warfare. As tensions with the Soviet Union finally ended during the late 1980s and early 1990s, however, the U.S. government withdrew thousands of nuclear weapons from overseas bases, leaving only residual deployments of several hundred weapons in NATO Europe (Germany, Belgium, Italy, and the United Kingdom)
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB197/index.htm
08:39pm 24/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3433 posts

Yup. Also not sure why you keep referencing the koch brothers? It's on paper they funded the study we previously talked about.
Venezuela have 5 different branches of Government over the previous 3.


Yeah so this is simply another case of "vash doesn't understand". Go and find some commentary on how separation of powers has been working in Venezuela. You'll figure out why I refer to the Koch brothers. It was on the report. That's how conspiracy theories work.

Tell that to George Orwell. If he was alive.


You mean the guy whose seminal works are about socialist authoritarianism. And whose works you've never read.

Uh huh. So murdering political opponents internationally is just fine then? Murder is only awful if its domestic. PP logic at its finest.


If this wasn't apologia for political violence being done literally as we speak it would be hilarious you thought that was a dunk. The US murdered a lot of "political opponents" known as Nazis internationally vash. Yes there is a massive fundamental difference between murdering your domestic political opponents and foreign ones. And honestly it's difficult to believe someone could be as stupid as that.

And as for you list of deployments, so not 90 miles from a massive population centre then. You really need to stop strolling into those vash.
09:31pm 24/02/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
666 posts

matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.


If you think unions created the 5 day work week and not productivity derived directly from the insane amount of capital generated during the capitalist inspired industrial revolution then I don't know what you are talking about.

Unions are a byproduct of capitalism and would not exist in any free form under communism. Unionism that is legislated is socialism. Unionism that is grassroots is....the free market and free association. You really think a totalitarian state would allow an uprising in its workforce? You really need to try harder.
08:00am 25/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5926 posts
Dazed, Unions are what kept Capitalism functioning. They wont be required under Communism. Especially in post scarcity.
If you like your sick leave, holiday leave, your weekends, and your liveable wage in Australia, you can thank the Unions.

This is the basis of a union - it is a united front of working people struggling for their mutual interests. Because the boss has access to a wide array of powers and resources, the only power the workers have in a capitalist hierarchy is to collectively deny the boss their labor, for without the workers, the machines do not move, and nothing of value is created.

So to say capital is the reason for the 5 day work week, you'd be very wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/hQV7jIk.jpg

AOC sure brings out the best in conservatives.
11:16am 25/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39747 posts
This is the basis of a union - it is a united front of working people struggling for their mutual interests.
I think the flip side of this is that a lot of people have no idea what unions do or what they're for - the only time they hear about them is when there's a strike (which screws them over somehow) or when some union boss is being hauled through the courts for misappropriation of funds.

There seems to be plenty of worker protections in place in many industries; there's solid base requirements for living wages/good conditions and then they can compete for workers on top of that.

Maybe I live in a bubble where very few people I know are in unions or care about then. I'm sure there are some industries and environments where they are still important but it kind of feels like our core worker requirements should protect most users. (There was a story on JJJ the other day about a road worker lollipop stick holder person making $110k a year, because they were in a union. That feels like a problem.)
03:22pm 25/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5928 posts
It's a shame the Union movement is weakening, especially with the big issue of casualisation of the workforce. The worker protections were another feat of Unions, or at least, a Government that supports the Union movement.
Its amazing how many people i talk to hate Unions. I guess that's what years of News Corp or conservative radio does to people.

Thats quite a pay packet for that job. I wonder what the average lollipop person earns. I suppose thats one of the few downsides of Unions, pushing for unreasonable wages and conditions. Though i'd think its not common for Unions to achieve that level of wage increases for low skilled work.
03:34pm 25/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39748 posts
Thats quite a pay packet for that job. I wonder what the average lollipop person earns.
They had 3 people call up about it - IIRC one was $60k, one was $80k, and the union person was $110k.
03:37pm 25/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24267 posts
hey what company are you with that charges this levy? is this in Queensland?


this is a federal government levy. you can see in the attached pic that a levy of $909.94 is 15% of ex-GST bill.

https://i.imgur.com/hsph22Z.png
matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.


unions don't generate wealth. they negotiate the price of labour. collective bargaining is a facet of a market system, don't think labour unions are special. businesses negotiate collectively too.

your child-like understanding of how the economy works makes your posts about as helpful as the bartender's.
03:52pm 25/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5929 posts
unions don't generate wealth. they negotiate the price of labour. collective bargaining is a facet of a market system, don't think labour unions are special. businesses negotiate collectively too.


Well, Unions allow workers to claim more wealth from their labor from their employer, where otherwise it's in the employer's best interest to pay as little as possible in the negotiation with the worker.
You run a nursing home, correct? Or was it child care, i forget. You would love to pay peanuts to your workers so you get more profit. Without your workers, you don't generate wealth.
04:03pm 25/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24268 posts
I pay the going rate, otherwise the staff leave and go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.
04:06pm 25/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5930 posts
I pay the going rate, otherwise the staff leave and go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.


Yep, and those going rates are set by a regulatory Government body. In your libertarian paradise, you would probably enjoy such a department being cut, so you can pay your workers less, and they'll also be paid less in other jobs so they'd likely stay.
04:17pm 25/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39749 posts
this is a federal government levy. you can see in the attached pic that a levy of $909.94 is 15% of ex-GST bill.
oh that's why I couldn't find it - it's not 15% for one thing, it's 15% for two things. ta
04:24pm 25/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24269 posts
Wrong, The award is the bare legal minimum and about 70% of my staff are paid over-award because I have to compete against other aged care providers and the hospital sector. And the labour market in general. I want to pay my workers even more, but due to govt interference (pricing regulation and funding cuts) I cannot.

Wage rates are a direct consequence of profitability. You literally have no clue.

Read up on what's happening to truck driver salaries in the US. They are going ballistic. Generic low skill jobs, with low inconvenience level will always attract the lowest rates of pay.

We are not talking about 7/11 here. Most business operators are very conscious of their reputation as an employer of choice.
04:27pm 25/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2295 posts
10:58pm 25/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3434 posts
Wow what a story. Thank god the guardian is there to cover dinner conversation through third hand sources.
06:48am 26/02/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
667 posts

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/04/trump-suggested-invading-venezuela-report

Just going to leave this here


How many of these stories have there been in the last 2 years that have never seen another sliver of media attention because, as with this one, there is literally no additional substance than uncorroborated garbage?

Yep, and those going rates are set by a regulatory Government body. In your libertarian paradise, you would probably enjoy such a department being cut, so you can pay your workers less, and they'll also be paid less in other jobs so they'd likely stay.


He'd probably enjoy the department being cut, so tax burden is reduced, so his profit margins increase, so he can offer more competitive wages to his employees, so other businesses can offer more competitive wages, so both employees and employers are better off.

If you want to know what a minimum wage regulation does, Vash, go look at your local Maccas and observe all of the automated ordering systems installed to replace jobs normally given to 14 year olds happy just to get enough money to go to a movie with their mates on the weekend.
07:59am 26/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5931 posts
If you want to know what a minimum wage regulation does, Vash, go look at your local Maccas and observe all of the automated ordering systems installed to replace jobs normally given to 14 year olds happy just to get enough money to go to a movie with their mates on the weekend.


If you want to know what automation does dazed, goto China and see automation replacing jobs despite the wages being very low. Removing minimum wage is not going to stop automation.
09:45am 26/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39750 posts
Wage rates are a direct consequence of profitability. You literally have no clue.
Not always true (e.g., the startup sector, where you can earn a 7 figure salary in a company that has been making a loss for a decade, or I guess the public sector where they throw a dart at a board to figure out what you should get paid).
Read up on what's happening to truck driver salaries in the US. They are going ballistic. Generic low skill jobs, with low inconvenience level will always attract the lowest rates of pay.
Not quite sure on your point here? Truck driving is a low skill job with a huge inconvenience level. Wages there aren't going up because the industry is getting more profitable - I was always under the impression that it was a bit of a knife edge margin kinda business - they're going up because the huge inconvenience level (plus threat of automation) competition for drivers, aren't they? Also don't truck drivers have the biggest union in the US?
09:50am 26/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24270 posts
Not always true (e.g., the startup sector,


wages are being paid on the assumption of future profitability out of shareholder capital or debt. they are not being paid a large salary on the promise of a loss.

Wages there aren't going up because the industry is getting more profitable


Wages are going up due to the growth in the logistics especially parcel industry. Partly driven by safe work regulations enforcing rest break for truck drivers and vehicle technology which can now verify these breaks.
10:04am 26/02/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1129 posts


Well, Unions allow workers to claim more wealth from their labor from their employer, where otherwise it's in the employer's best interest to pay as little as possible in the negotiation with the worker.
You run a nursing home, correct? Or was it child care, i forget. You would love to pay peanuts to your workers so you get more profit. Without your workers, you don't generate wealth.


If you're in demand you don't need a Union. Make choices take responsibility. Find a way. People are very good at making excuses.
10:52pm 26/02/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
668 posts


If you want to know what automation does dazed, goto China and see automation replacing jobs despite the wages being very low. Removing minimum wage is not going to stop automation.


Here we are listening to you argue communism is good for the worker, and you use China as an example. How are the low skilled workers in China faring, Vash? Better or worse than low skilled workers in capitalist countries?
08:28am 27/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39752 posts
wages are being paid on the assumption of future profitability out of shareholder capital or debt. they are not being paid a large salary on the promise of a loss.
My example was kinda dumb because startups don't normally operate on such highly overblown salaries. Generally they are given equity or options as compensation and incentive. The high salaries now are more a result of ludicrously cheap and plentiful capital and stupid competitive pressure on housing in big commercial hubs.

But anyway, my point was more that profitability is just one of the factors that influence wages, in some markets, some of the time. (Maybe it's a technicality but I see "hope of future profitability" as different from "actual profitability", possibly just because I'm snarky on so many bad businesses that exist to seemingly just burn through investor capital.)

I think profitability impacts things like executive compensation wayyyy more dramatically more than salaries, especially in large corporates.

I listened to a podcast yesterday about how Clinton triggered the wave of share option packaging in the 90s by clamping down on executive compensation; that combined with the share buybacks going on now really have me convinced that a) these people literally have no idea what they're doing, other than trying to extract capital from a business to the executive as fast as they possibly can with little to no regard for the employees or the shareholders (seriously the people in the Clinton era apparently thought that granting share options was "free") and b) there is
09:15am 27/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39754 posts

Here is an interesting and very long new article/critique on MMT: https://jacobinmag.com/2019/02/modern-monetary-theory-isnt-helping (I have not finished reading it)


11:45am 27/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5934 posts
https://i.imgur.com/KLXNPb5.jpg

But apparently the libertarian think tank says its going to be $3tn a year more expensive!
04:47pm 27/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24271 posts
Universal healthcare is a good thing, provided you can also choose private health care. The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it. You have a single GP for life and no choice.

The US universal healthcare proposed by the crazy bartender would outlaw private health care.
05:16pm 27/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5935 posts
Universal healthcare is a good thing, provided you can also choose private health care. The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it. You have a single GP for life and no choice.

The US universal healthcare proposed by the crazy bartender would outlaw private health care.


No problem with that as long as it's like Medicare in Australia. I've never required private insurance, the public system is fantastic here. And you certainly aren't stuck to one GP.
05:29pm 27/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3435 posts
But apparently the libertarian think tank says its going to be $3tn a year more expensive!


Here comes vash with a meme to undermine a study he hasn't read and his idol praised.

I look forward to your further defence of killing people in the streets as a demonstration of separation of powers.
09:41pm 27/02/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39755 posts
The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it.
Hi, I used the NHS.

I lived in London and saw two different GPs (possibly three? I can't remember if one was a GP or a specialist of some type) within the space of about 3 months. I had two hospital visits including blood tests and Xrays. I just walked (literally, walked to hospital from my place) into the hospital, gave them my name and postcode (which is all they needed to look up me in their magic system), waited maybe 1.5 hours each time after triage. I had followup appointments with the GPs; the longest I had to wait I think was a week.

At no time did I have to pay any money for anything.

I don't know why you think you have a single GP for life, it is trivial to change. The only challenge is whether or not your local GP office is accepting new registrations. I had multiple GP offices nearby; one probably less than 30s walk from my front door and one maybe 5 mins away.

Anyway I had nothing but good care from start to finish and was most impressed with the total lack of bureaucracy. I know I can probably get "free" treatment here in Australia but I've had multiple GP visits and specialist visits in the last year since being back and I feel like I'm paying a fortune each time. I am sure everyone has a different experience but most people I knew in London talked positively about the NHS.
10:05am 28/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5936 posts
Hehe PP. U.S Police murder around 100 people per 100,000. Those numbers don't seem far off Venezuelan Government killings. Guess by your logic, those American separation of powers don't work so good.
Bit of a poor bait when it can be so easily be debunked like all your arguments.
12:58pm 28/02/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24272 posts
I am glad you had a positive experience, trog.
01:10pm 28/02/19 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9651 posts
Was vaguely thinking about this the other day, but I wonder how a healthcare system could be made to work (to be paid for) by saying that all citizens will pay a flat x% of their income to be covered, offset by a floor value, OR they can take out private cover. The caveat on the private cover is that the private insurance providers are only permitted to use DOB, gender and city of residence to determine the rates for a person, and all persons with matching data of those criteria must be identical - and it has to cover *everything*. Yes, the details would be difficult to get right, but in principle I could see it working.
03:13pm 28/02/19 Permalink
Vash
5937 posts
The problem i have with private insurance, and any form of privatized health care, is that it falls into the issue that health becomes profit driven rather than based on positive health outcomes. This is evident on why the U.S system is so far behind the rest of the first world. Heck, even the poor country Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the U.S.
Shareholders demand higher profit, which private health insurers will ensure that insurance claims are fought against, and that health cover of pre existing conditions send premiums sky high.
Those problems dont exist under a public system. And people try to argue that a public system can't match the health care of a private one, which simply isn't true. Our Public system have the best doctors. All you're really getting under insurance is luxury hospital options and dental cover.
03:59pm 28/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3436 posts
Hehe PP. U.S Police murder around 100 people per 100,000. Those numbers don't seem far off Venezuelan Government killings. Guess by your logic, those American separation of powers don't work so good.
Bit of a poor bait when it can be so easily be debunked like all your arguments.


Yes vash the police being involved in fatal shootings is the same thing as bringing the army out to kill protesters when an election doesn't go your way.

"Debunked".

It's a swing and miss from poor old vash. Still producing apologia for unflinching political violence.
04:23pm 28/02/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2296 posts

Why have the murdoch press chosen Pell as the hill to die on in their weird culture war?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/news-corp-columnists-declare-cardinal-pell-innocent-and-a-scapegoat?CMP=soc_568


06:52pm 28/02/19 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1127 posts
Vash, according to wikipedia at least the U.S. murder rate is 5.35 per 100,000.

Can you explain where you got a figure of 100 per 100,000 for homicides committed by police?
08:00pm 28/02/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3437 posts

Can you explain where you got a figure of 100 per 100,000 for homicides committed by police?


His anus. He got it from his anus.
08:58pm 28/02/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
669 posts
If you look here you can calculate the US police homicide rate is around 0.3 per 100,000. Bit different to the 100 per 100,000. I don't think little Vash would want to get into the homicide rate argument considering 2012 socialist utopia Venezuela has the second highest homicide rate in the world.
08:55am 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3438 posts
Yes but notwithstanding vash may have misstated the problem by three orders of magnitude, the rate is a distinct issue from the true characterisation of the violence.

Police shooting people is simply not the same thing as bringing the army out to overturn an election result.

The army could potentially overturn an election result without killing anyone, instead just relying on the threat of force. Hence the term bloodless coup.

It isn't a valid comparison full stop. It isn't issue of magnitude but of category.
11:11am 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5938 posts
Homicide between civilians, Dazed. Police killing Civilians is on behalf of Government. Yes i didn't fact check my numbers like i usually do.
But the argument is the same. Alot of people die at the hands of the U.S Government, and not just domestic Civilians.
PP loves to casually brush aside murder the U.S commits internationally, and it seems domestically now too.

Now by me pointing out that the U.S Government commits alot of murder of innocent people does not excuse what Venezuela is doing. It's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising Venezula vs excusing America's actions.
Police are often not prosecuted for excessive use of force and murder. A failure of it's multiple branches of Government perhaps?

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jZCRJGBtSGKVioT9XftMCIR4_sA=/0x0:580x308/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:580x308):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3733828/The_Economist_police_shootings.0.png
12:08pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3439 posts
Yes i didn't fact check my numbers like i usually do.

lol.

But the argument is the same. Alot of people die at the hands of the U.S Government, and not just domestic Civilians.
PP loves to casually brush aside murder the U.S commits internationally, and it seems domestically now too.


Yeah so this is a case of not being able to hold two things in your head at once.

You need to try really hard now vash.

Killing your political opponents domestically is not the same thing as killing your political opponents internationally. On this point see again WW2 in which the US "murdered" thousands of political opponents known as Nazis.

The police are not enforcing or upending political outcomes in the United States vash. It isn't really possible to simplify civics further.

This is why police shootings are not an example of hypocrisy. And claiming the US is not in a position to criticize Venezuela's political violence is precisely excusing it. But let's not forget, you've previously stated that Maduro violence is the fault of the US.

. A failure of it's multiple branches of Government perhaps?


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.

It's really entertaining to watch you rattle off words you planly don't understand in contexts you don't understand.
02:15pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5939 posts
Murder is Murder PP.
Internationally vs Domestically, its irrelevant. The Government of the U.S uses it's power to murder.

Oh yes, it always falls back to Nazis. How about you look at the CIA files and see the U.S coup attempts, assassinations of many country's democratically elected leaders world wide?
The Vietnam invasion was purely political, untold millions of innocents dead. Not at the hands of Socialism, that's for sure.
Iraq war? Oopsie.

But no, those were held in good intentions, to free the people. Utter nonsense.

The hypocrisy is widespread when it comes to the killings caused by Capitalism. So if you don't want to be called a hypocrite, then you call out the U.S, and not just the Socialist 'utopia' Venezuela. At this point it becomes clear most right leaning people here don't read any further into issues than the front page of a News Corp paper.
02:56pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
2294 posts
Thank you Rukh for the fact check on that one, lol...
03:23pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3440 posts
Murder is Murder PP.
Internationally vs Domestically, its irrelevant. The Government of the U.S uses it's power to murder.


Vash this is a childishly simple statement. Killing people isn't always murder even in the criminal law, so the idea that there is no distinction to be drawn between anyone who is killed by a government employee in any context is beyond stupid.

The requirements of keeping a country's citizens safe can and do require killing people from opposed international powers. Those opposed powers are invariably opposed politically. When it happens it's called a "war".

The Vietnam invasion was purely political, untold millions of innocents dead. Not at the hands of Socialism, that's for sure.


Really? see WW2. Is Vietnam in the US or not vash? The principle isn't does vash agree with them politically. But while you're riding your high horse on deep (lol) knowledge of the CIA why don't you look at the human rights record of the Vietcong/North Vietnamese. I'll give you a clue, they are why we have a large Vietnamese community here.

In any event, this is a red-herring you've thrown out because your equally ridiculous claim that US police shootings are comparable to what is happening in Venezuela has been shutdown. Is it only the US Vash or is Australia caught up in the "murder is murder" reasoning. There was a fatal police shooting on Bourke street a few months back vash. Does that count?

At this point it becomes clear most right leaning people here don't read any further into issues than the front page of a News Corp paper.


Yeah ok Koch brothers boy. Maybe when you rise above posting r/latestagecapitalism talking points you'll be in a position to discuss where people get their news from.
04:23pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5940 posts
The requirements of keeping a country's citizens safe can and do require killing people from opposed international powers.


Oh the naivety. Just think long and hard on this one again PP. Maybe after reading those CIA files. Or is that propaganda for you aswell?

Hmm, only 60,000 Vietnamese refugees left for Australia over a 7 year period. Perhaps it was more due to the severe aftermath of the American War than anything to do with the Vietcong.

The numbers count.
America is the biggest offender of the first world for police murdering civilians. The Government isn't doing anything about this.
You say the military is being used to kill people in Venezuela. Yet that number is minuscule compared to how many are killed by US Police.
A total of 126 people have died in Venezuela by the hands of the Government.

3 people a day are killed by U.S police, and its been like that for a long time.

So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police. Semantics. Both are arms of the Government. At least in Venezula's defence, These killings will end upon stability of the Government and it's country.
The U.S on the other hand...
06:09pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3441 posts
Oh the naivety.


Hehe it really is very entertaining to watch you convince yourself you're not a idiot.

For example.
Hmm, only 60,000 Vietnamese refugees left for Australia over a 7 year period. Perhaps it was more due to the severe aftermath of the American War than anything to do with the Vietcong.


You don't know what a refugee is do you vash? I like how this tries to sidestep the issue but because you don't understand what a refugee is confirms my point.

As for your twaddle about police shootings, even if it granted they are all murders, and they aren't, they don't arise from a single incident at the order of the president.

For it even begin to be comparable they'd need to be as a result of a single event. Like what is happening now in Venezuela.

And again vash minimises the violence. Only 126. What's an acceptable number of people killed when you lose an election vash?

So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police. Semantics. Both are arms of the Government


That separation of powers concept is something you just don't understand is it vash.


Edit

Wow. This didn't hit me properly at first. Just wow
. At least in Venezula's defence, These killings will end upon stability of the Government and it's country.
07:07pm 01/03/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39756 posts
So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police
in first world countries, it's entirely different
07:16pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5941 posts
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+refugee

Hope that helps you understand what a refugee is PP.

Maduro didn't order any killings. As what happens with any protest or riot, things get out of hand with military vs protestors. Deaths during protests has happened in almost every country, including the U.S.

And what makes you think he lost the election? He won it. They're a democracy as much as you pretend to believe they aren't.
Their separation of powers or constitution obviously prevents him from being ousted mid term, so just like Americans have to deal with Trump, i suppose Venezuela has to deal with Maduro until the next election.

Comparing deaths at the hands of U.S police, yes the number is small in Venezuela. That doesn't disrespect the dead, it's pointing out a matter of fact.

Now by me saying all this doesn't mean i support Venezuela in anyway. I'm just laying out the facts. And how the atrocities of the U.S is completely ignored, at least by the majority.
07:21pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3442 posts
Hope that helps you understand what a refugee is PP.


Yeah so the thing about the Dunning Kruger effect vash is that it lets people talk with confidence about things they don't understand. Especially when they talk to experts.

I don't have to google what refugee means because I have this:

https://i.ibb.co/74bChDg/MVIMG-20190301-201337.jpg

At 600 pages, it's somewhat more comprehensive than the wiki entry. I'm sure you've got a copy and studied under both authors as I did. I'll keep my own counsel on what a refugee is. Thanks for using google though.

And what makes you think he lost the election? He won it. They're a democracy as much as you pretend to believe they aren't.


The thing about elections you "win" when you ban the opposition from running.....

in first world countries, it's entirely different


Well, Hallelujah. Only took 4 years.
08:28pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5942 posts
Okay. So you've read a law book on refugees. Now tell me what definition of refugee is that i supposedly am 'missing'
And you think you're an expert on refugees since you've read a book. That's pretty amusing PP.

You've completely missed the meaning again of the Dunning Kruger effect.

Elections aren't elections without an opposition. The two opposition parties gained 20% and 10% of the vote.
Now were the elections rigged? It's possible. It sure happens in alot of other countries. But apparently Venezuela has a very solid democratic process, contrary to popular belief.
And when you have the U.S saying it was an illegitimate election, well you gotta wonder. Especially with it's history of trying to, and succeeding, in killing democratically elected leaders they dont like.

But what is truly anti democracy, is for outside powers (the U.S and allies) to claim an unelected leader as interim President.
Could you imagine if other nations tried to do the same to the U.S or any of its allies?
08:54pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3443 posts
Okay. So you've read a law book on refugees. Now tell me what definition of refugee is that i supposedly am 'missing' And you think you're an expert on refugees since you've read a book. That's pretty amusing PP.


So that's a no on you having a copy then vash. How many books do you own/have read on the subject? I know the answer is 0 by the way. Why don't you tell me your favourite refugee case? Mine is Ward. A decision of the Canadian Supreme Court. The citation is [1993] 2 SCR 689. I also quite like Ben Saul's writing on the subject and his writings on the operation of national security laws.

That book isn't any old book on refugee law. It's the definitive book on the specific subject of who is and isn't a refugee and why. Around the world. The reason you don't know this is that you don't know anything about refugee law. Like any of the things you talk about here.

As far as the definition goes, I'll give you a hint. Non-wartime refugees get produced when...... (its political persecution). The refugees who came after 1975 were all hunted out by the socialists. And there were a lot more of them than just those that came to Australia.

Elections aren't elections without an opposition. The two opposition parties gained 20% and 10% of the vote.

Might need to lift that fact check game vash.
09:50pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5943 posts
Naturally, PP. You're required to read Law.
And there is far more to a subject than the Laws that cover it. This is where the Dunning Kruger effect comes in. You claim to be an expert in a subject, simply because you studied the law that applies to refugees.
That doesn't make you an expert about refugees. It just makes you a Lawyer.
Now if i tried to pretend i knew the law better than you, then that would be the Dunning Kruger effect.
You have the illusion of thinking that you're an expert over me on the matter, simply because you read a book on it. This is a spot on example.

Right, so you claim that *all* refugees escaping Vietnam was purely because of Socialists. Do you care to back that up with evidence?
I'm sure there were many who wanted to live in a Capitalist society, and then there were many who simply wanted a better standard of living, which could not be provided as yet by a country that was completely devastated by American invasion.
Which is more likely? The Socialists hunting them down, or the country is in ruins, economically, and infrastructure wise. It takes a long time to rebuild after a war, and especially a country that had the most bombs thrown on it than any other in history.

The onus is on you to disprove the claim i made about the election. Find me something that isn't an opinion piece on why Maduro wasn't legitimately elected.
10:29pm 01/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3444 posts
You have the illusion of thinking that you're an expert over me on the matter, simply because you read a book on it. This is a spot on example.

Aww vash doesn't have a real response so he tries to act smart, and instead proves he doesn't understand. 'Refugee' is a legal status vash. There is nothing else to know except the law when it comes to the definition.

And here is the proof you don't know what you are talking about:

Which is more likely? The Socialists hunting them down, or the country is in ruins, economically, and infrastructure wise. It takes a long time to rebuild after a war, and especially a country that had the most bombs thrown on it than any other in history.


One of these things makes them a refugee and one of them doesn't. See not all migrants are refugees vash.

Right, so you claim that *all* refugees escaping Vietnam was purely because of Socialists. Do you care to back that up with evidence?

No vash. I'm not going to link to the freely available history of the Vietnam war you know nothing about. You can get off your ass and read more than the introductory paragraph of the wiki entry.

The onus is on you to disprove the claim i made about the election. Find me something that isn't an opinion piece on why Maduro wasn't legitimately elected.

no just because you blather bats*** crazy doesn't mean I'm obligated to debunk it. The onus is on you to prove that Maduro didn't rig his election because almost every western leader has condemned the election and said he should give up power. The onus is on you to prove you know something they don't. I look forward to your definitely not a conspiracy theory answer.
10:54pm 01/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1131 posts
Vash, do you sell Amway?
11:04am 03/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
670 posts
Maduro banned his primary opponents from contesting the election, Vash. If that isn't rigging an election I don't know what is.

The great thing about socialists is that they always hang their hat on the defense of real socialism whilst simultaneously saying it's not real socialism.
09:41am 04/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
671 posts
07:25am 07/03/19 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9653 posts
If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.

Not sure what the hell that has to do with socialism, but whatever, it's a buzzword these days so better throw it in there.
04:47pm 07/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24274 posts
Shorten wants to increase the minimum wage to a "living wage". The numbskull thinks you can legislate prosperity. More hours will be cut, casualised and shoved off into the gig economy. But whatever - I am fairly well resigned to a Labor government by now.

It is like when you let your kid paint. Just accept there will be some cleaning up afterwards.
10:39pm 07/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
672 posts
If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.

Not sure what the hell that has to do with socialism, but whatever, it's a buzzword these days so better throw it in there.


To each according to his needs, right Raven?
07:55am 08/03/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39760 posts
If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.
I'm no rocket scientist but but I don't get what the bigger issues are that you're referring to? it seems to me that if wages go up then hours going down is a likely outcome, and how much they go down will be a function of many variables, including how many staff you have?

this feels kinda like one of those election promises that simply won't get honoured, or if it is it will just be in a really trivial way ("we saved Australia by increasing the minimum wage by $0.02/hour, yor welcom").

I like how my hope for a rational government is now based on expectations of their failure to honour their commitments
11:02am 08/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3445 posts
Gee so those democrats really covered themselves in glory this week. The party of anti-racism can't quite bring itself to condemn anti-Semitism.
11:26am 08/03/19 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9654 posts
I'm no rocket scientist but but I don't get what the bigger issues are that you're referring to?

A 9% increase in wages should not result in a 50% decrease in hours. At that kind of wage it would take two hours to make up the salary increase.

If they need to cut back hours so significantly that workers lose 50% of their hours, there were bigger, existing issues.
04:30pm 08/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2297 posts

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/08/15/31/low-wage-growth-not-all-bad-minister

lol a rising tide lifts all boats, except when it doesn't and that's not bad.

This is what LNP believes.

The child with the paints is the current government.
08:34pm 08/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24275 posts
Corman is 100% correct. Shorten's intention to artificially increase wages will trigger mass unemployment and recession.

A flexible labour system is the best way to secure long term growth and employment security. (of course it's no so good for poor performing employees - they get fired).
08:51pm 08/03/19 Permalink
taggs
6596 posts

As a guy who studied and worked in economics/finance for some time, a per capita recession is legit something I have never come across in either. Does it mean it is not a thing? Iunno get into the literature.

I'm sure someone has posted/published summin either way

Edit: great 1am wisdom.

Anyway, maybe the first time ever I've agreed with Ross gittins: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/forget-what-s-happening-in-the-economy-just-latch-onto-a-scary-label-20190308-p512pe.html


12:50am 09/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3446 posts
Thanks for the article. Was an interesting read. The final paragraphs were particularly damning.

It would be interesting to try to trace the use of the term over the last week.
10:24am 09/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5944 posts
https://i.imgur.com/8vO8ZGq.png

It's funny how the right are trying everything they can to smear her. AOC is dancing? Outrageous. She used to be a waitress? She dumb af.
And they are completely blind to Trump's dumb & his behavior which can't even be compared to AOC.
07:51pm 09/03/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26525 posts
Drunk and posting in the politics thread.

Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f*****g eat it. Till they f*****g choke. See you then.
05:21am 10/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3447 posts
Adam Schiff has backed away from.thr Russian collision story now. But fpot believes.

Mueller isn't going to confirm your fever dreams fpot.

He hasn't landed a single "collusion" indictment. Not one in 2 years. If he coulda he woulda little boy. Nobody's gonna be eating s***.
07:30am 10/03/19 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3387 posts
03:43pm 10/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2298 posts
Corman is 100% correct. Shorten's intention to artificially increase wages will trigger mass unemployment and recession.

A flexible labour system is the best way to secure long term growth and employment security. (of course it's no so good for poor performing employees - they get fired).

This is all the bulls*** people roll out for establishing a minimum wage in the first place.

The great neoliberal experiment has come to an end.
03:49pm 10/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
673 posts
Drunk and posting in the politics thread.


Sounds like your sober posts to be honest.

She used to be a waitress? She dumb af.


She dumb af because she doesn't understand basic economics and thinks deficit spending is not the same thing as borrowing along with the multitude of other reasons she's an idiot that have been thoroughly documented in this thread.
04:44pm 10/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2299 posts


She dumb af because she doesn't understand basic economics and thinks deficit spending is not the same thing as borrowing along with the multitude of other reasons she's an idiot that have been thoroughly documented in this thread.

A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.
04:57pm 10/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3448 posts
This is all the bulls*** people roll out for establishing a minimum wage in the first place.

O_o flexible labour market was the reason for a legislated minimum wage?



A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.


I can't believe it's not cliche.
05:12pm 10/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5945 posts
A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.


Oh yeah. American Imperialism, A-OK.
Social program spending? Socialism!#@*&^ We'll go broke!
Now back to that pretty chart of the many countries with healthy social spending...
07:08pm 10/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3449 posts
So redhat if you want to handle your point after

Oh yeah. American Imperialism, A-OK.


I found this for you. It's good for your back too.
09:41pm 10/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1133 posts

Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs

Pauline Hanson, for example, continues to call for the entire, and much diminished, development assistance budget to be cut, Wong says. She says that Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs. It is a call sadly echoed by at least some members of the Liberal National party. All of us who believe in a strong and generous Australia must push back and articulate why Australia's international development programs matter; to the lives of those in our region, to our influence in our region, to our own national interest.


Why does Wong want to send more money to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs?

Seems to me like wong is very wong.

Article by red propaganda outlet: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/12/penny-wong-says-labor-unable-to-entirely-reverse-coalitions-cuts-to-aid-budget
09:12pm 12/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24277 posts
Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f*****g eat it. Till they f*****g choke. See you then.


lmfao there is no collusion. and mueller will confirm it. i look forward to the report. trump is the best show on earth!
10:19pm 12/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3454 posts
Pelosi backed away from impeachment yesterday. He's gonna serve a full term and stands a decent chance of winning a second.

Fpot is going to find the next few months tough. Pity him infi. He hasn't been able to call someone a piece of s*** in months.
08:00am 13/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
674 posts
09:56am 13/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2300 posts

Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs

Maybe Pauline is talking out of her racist arse again? This took me a minute to find.
https://dfat.gov.au/aid/who-we-work-with/ngos/ancp/Pages/australian-ngo-cooperation-program.aspx
NGO 2018-19 Budget Estimate: $132.5 million


Total aid budget is 4 billion much of which pays for itself with increased trade and not having to spend money on military.

The only thing we're suffering is your dumb posts Dazed.
06:51pm 13/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3455 posts
Common redhat your better then that. Don't pull a vash.

See let me help you.

When you call someone dumb, it's best not to make stupid assertions in the same post.

For example finding the NGO budget when the statement is for NGOs and *governments*.

Maybe Pauline is being racist. But if it's so easy to demolish her point then do it.
08:30pm 13/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2301 posts
Hanson's s*** is dropping NGOs in the same bucket as governments which she thinks are all corrupt if they're from poor nations.

You know what is closer to a billion? The half billion given just for giggles to the people that are going to save the great barrier reef.

You know what's a closer number to how much we give NGOs than a billion? The 30 million foxtel got for doing nothing.
10:39pm 13/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3456 posts
Yeah but she didn't just say NGOs did she.

And do you have any measure of corruption in NGOs?

Don't throw out a bunch of red herrings just because you've been called.

Between governments and NGOS I'm gonna assume she captures the vast majority of foreign aid spending. I doubt that's an accident.

As for the Barrier Reef. Seeing as she doesn't think it needs fixing I wonder what her position on Turnbull giving his mates money for it is likely to be? Why don't you google that champ. I can't be bothered.

So try again.


*Edit*
in other news Adam Schiff is lining up behind Pelosi and backing away from impeachment. At least fpot is going to have a lot of tears to use for lube.
06:49am 14/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3457 posts
god its so rich and creamy.. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Trumpism. Good to see the NY Times coming out in support of Trump.
09:26am 14/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
675 posts
god its so rich and creamy.. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Trumpism. Good to see the NY Times coming out in support of Trump.


When I read the headline I assumed the article was about how creepy he is around female children.
12:03pm 14/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3458 posts
I was more referring to the article attacking him for being

Old (I know)
White (OMG) and
Male (WTF)

It's deeply satisfying to see the left wing has learnt literally nothing in the last 4 years.

Biden almost certainly would have trounced Trump but was passed on because it was HRCs turn or something.

VP running as essentially third term of popular president is a strategy that has worked before.

So of course the ny times has to tear down a popular not bats*** insane centre left candidate.
06:09pm 14/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1135 posts
https://i.imgur.com/yYulFkQ.jpg

Did you guys see the thing where Blair Cottrell's 17 year old cousin cracked an egg on Penny Wong's head and then she slapped him a couple times before a heard of acid dropping grey nomads hit him with "Induct school children into Marxism NOW!" pickets?
07:54pm 19/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1136 posts
12:26am 24/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3459 posts
Drunk and posting in the politics thread.

Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f*****g eat it. Till they f*****g choke. See you then.


So CNN's DOJ correspondent is reporting Mueller isn't going to recommend any further indictments, bringing the grand total of people indicted for collusion with Russia over the 2016 election to 0.

Not one person. Which is really f*****g funny.

So looking forward to fpot's meltdown. I know it can be tough when you just really want to believe something. Like fpot thinks he has political insight deeper than a 12 year olds.
08:53am 24/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24282 posts
This is the second last stage of Trump Deangement Syndrome. There never was a Russia Collusion. The final stage is when Trump wins in 2020 against the other old white guy.
09:24am 24/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5948 posts
Hmm yeah, TDS is a big problem.
On the other side you have people inspired enough by Trump to go on a killing spree of Muslims.

Self described Nazis love Trump. Isn't that alittle odd?
11:43am 24/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24283 posts
You listen to the ramblings of a madman? If he idolised Waleed Aly then instead he would be evil?

Don't be ridiculous.
11:48am 24/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24284 posts
Cool article.

It would be immoral to collectively punish white people for the actions of a few extremists


What do you call the confiscation of millions of guns then? What changed?

Does the article's writer know about even basic risk management? Lawful residents cannot be removed from a country but risk categories can be prevented from entering.

It is an absolute joke that democrats are railing against basic border security measures they supported 4 years ago under Obama. Luckily Australia is all over that s***. God bless Peter Dutton.
12:47pm 24/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5950 posts
Mueller clears Trump.
Do we still want to go on about that deep state conspiracy to bring him down?
07:55am 25/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3460 posts
letter from attorney general clearing Trump

So all that choking fpot. Called it nearly two years ago.

Mueller clears Trump.
Do we still want to go on about that deep state conspiracy to bring him down?


You are dumber than a bag of doorknobs. It means that the Steele dossier which was illegally sent to the FBI has no basis in fact.

sarah ferguson at the ABC should lose her job.
08:22am 25/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
676 posts
Imagine being fpot and Vash right now.
08:33am 25/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5951 posts
Actually i was on the fence about Trump himself colluding. No doubt Russia did interfere with the election though.
Still, alot of the people surrounding him are criminals. There's definitely dodgy s*** he does, but colluding isn't one of them.
08:49am 25/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3461 posts
No you weren't
09:48am 25/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24285 posts
Russia didn't interfere in the election either. No one in the intelligence community nor Congress have been able to specifically identify how Russia interfered in the election process.

Russian bots may have spread propaganda on social media, but so what?

The Democrats paid a Russian propaganda agency to compile a dossier of fake articles about Trump which was then used by the NSA and FBI to seek out FISA warrants to surveil Trump campiagn members - all American citizens - signed off by the Obama govt. That's all fact.

Not a single consequences for this illegal conduct.
09:54pm 25/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1137 posts

OMG he's tat is coming right for us!!!

Oh it's a tribal tat.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215670

Evacuations of Homegrown Music Festival reportedly sparked by a tattoo
It has been reported the tattoo was thought to be linked to far-right ideology, however, it turned out it was traditional. Around 5000 concertgoers were evacuated from the main stage at the Homegrown Festival in Wellington around 9.20pm. Homegrown spokeswoman Kelly Wright said the incident was "an innocent misunderstanding". "Some of the Homegrown crew identified a person that they were concerned about and police made the call that person needed to be found," she said. "It all happened at the change-over of the music so people were moving around and police couldn't spot the person immediately so they made the call to evacuate the stage. "The person was found and it turned out that is was a completely innocent misunderstanding and everyone was allowed to return."


Hows the TDS going Vash? Have you talked to your naturopath about the condition? Maybe some crystals would heal it.
10:33pm 25/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3462 posts
Not a single consequences for this illegal conduct.


There will be.

That run needs to be carefully timed. Played right 2020 is his to lose now.

Every single candidate for the Dems bought into this bulls***.

To be honest, I've never been one for the privatise the ABC thing. But last night they were pushing their factually incorrect 3 part 4 corners "investigation" on the grounds he wasn't exonerated of obstruction. But he was, because there was no collusion. They are seriously arguing he obstructed an investigation into a crime that didn't happen. That's where a billion dollar news organisation lands.

Might be quicker to abolish the ABC and salt the earth.

The NYT and wapo got Pulitzer prizes for their coverage of Russia. The absolute state of journalism.
07:31am 26/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
677 posts
10:21am 27/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24286 posts
damn thats savage.

"Lee claimed the deal would ban airplanes and leave Hawaii to use 'a massive fleet of giant, highly trained sea horses' to get around "

I'd like to see that. Could be a tourist attraction, in fact. Green jobs.
11:09am 27/03/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1138 posts

I should have screen capped yesterdays ABC page. They had an anti-right spree running at the top 4 articles with 2 around the Al Jazeera's secret recording some drunk idiot who they despise and selling it to the ABC. Just below that some stupid "Opinion" article about "Whats the next way to stamp out Trump now that the Russian excuse is debunked"

"There is a way to take down trump and it's not impeachment"

with a pic of Putin whispering in Trump's ear. LOL

but it was still a large article.

Someone send a box TDS pills to ABC.

Ohh so they did vote him in? Well wooppeee dooooo daaahhh.

Mr Latham today accused the ABC of working with Al Jazeera to conduct the investigation, which was carried out by Al Jazeera executive producer Peter Charley. "Peter Charley used to work for the ABC, he's the bloke behind the Al Jazeera sting," Mr Latham said. "George Megalogenis, an ABC character, is interviewed as part of the program so I assume the ABC had updates as to how the entrapment was going and now of course they're feeding off it in their various news outlets today. "So the ABC has seemingly been party to the targeting of One Nation in a way that is fundamentally dishonest."
Ms Hanson took to Twitter and said she was "shocked and disgusted" with the "hit piece" by a "Qatari Government organisation" and had referred the matter to ASIO. "After the full hit piece has been released I'll make a full statement & take all appropriate action." Pauline Hanson:I was shocked & disgusted with the Al Jazeera hit piece. A Qatari government organisation should not be targeting Australian political parties. This has been referred to ASIO. After the full hit piece has been released Iââ‚ÂÂâ„¢ll make a full statement & take all appropriate action. The Australian Federal Police said they have received a referral in relation to the matter but would not comment further.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-27/one-nation-mp-mark-latham-calls-gun-lobby-story-entrapment/10943504
08:50pm 27/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24287 posts
There is a way to take down trump and it's not impeachment


Why the hell don't they stick news! ABC used to be good at that. That headline what a complete cringe. Broadcasting fantasy drivel from academics is not news.
09:16pm 27/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3463 posts
Good to see AOC Standing on the bodies of the drowned in the flooding in the wake of her fiasco.

Remember kids definitely not the politics of fear.
07:28am 28/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
678 posts
Best-case socialism still fails miserably.

A fun quote from the article:

Mr Sipila's government also famously experimented with a guaranteed minimum income scheme – giving €560 (£480) a month to 2,000 unemployed people as a basic income with no conditions attached. Initial results suggested the pilot scheme left people happier, but still unemployed.


Dole bludging parasites become ecstatic dole bludging parasites. Would you look at that...
06:19pm 28/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3464 posts
Phooks is very clever everyone. He can get an essay from the Cato institute.

But when you read it. Oh look. 2016 election in a nut shell.

Vaguer cultural complaints are harder to evaluate. However, if we
equate “culture” with “high culture” or “popular culture,” we see a
curious pattern. America’s top two cultural centers, California and
New York, have the largest foreign-born populations in the coun-
try—26 percent and 20 percent, respectively (U.S. Census Bureau
2003). While states with few immigrants—like Alabama (2 percent
foreign-born), Arkansas (3 percent), Montana (2 percent), North
Dakota (2 percent), South Dakota (2 percent), and West Virginia
(1 percent)—enjoy great natural beauty, even their tourism bureaus
would not paint them as cultural meccas. You could dismiss these
patterns as mere correlation. But immigrants causally improve at
least one form of culture prized by snobs and philistines alike: cui-
sine. And if we’re being honest, don’t most Americans care more
about food than literature and museums?



Here is an article a bit more your speed phooks. From the definitely not racist or homophobic slate

is pete buttigieg just a white male or does his gayness count as diversity?

That's a question that should definitely occupy the mind of a non racist non homophobe.
07:18am 29/03/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26527 posts
First of all I accept the findings of the report.

I guess I feel kind of conflicted. On one hand I look kind of silly with my big statements about how certain people will eat it till they choke. On the other it is a good thing that the POTUS isn't an agent of Russia. One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one. Plenty of examples of bizarre behaviour and circumstantial evidence that I thought would be explained are now unexplained. I guess I just wanted trump gone really badly, and a positive finding by Mueller would have made that happen quickly.

Despite getting Russia completely wrong I still stand by every other comment I have ever made about trump and those who support and defend him. A narcissistic, racist promoter of sexual abuse, violence and hate. Anyone who supports him also supports that. The good news for that pile of filth is that trump will almost certainly get another four years out of this. If that makes you happy, and you claim to be a person who isn't a racist, homophobe, misogynist or any of the other labels that so easily stick to maga chuds then perhaps you need to reassess your priorities in life. Because trump winning to own the libs is a bad thing, and if he does win everyone but a very small percentage (let's say... 1%) will lose.

But hey, look on the bright side. They might still get him for obstruction of justice, witness tampering, incompetence, tax fraud, or any of the litany of crimes he has committed in plain sight.
04:29pm 29/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3465 posts
They might still get him for obstruction of justice, witness tampering, incompetence, tax fraud, or any of the litany of crimes he has committed in plain sight.

No they won't.

Tldr: fpot is psychologically incapable of accepting the outcome of a free and fair election.

One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one


No he didn't. And this
A narcissistic, racist promoter of sexual abuse, violence and hate. Anyone who supports him also supports that.


Is the reason you thought he did.

And this

. If that makes you happy, and you claim to be a person who isn't a racist, homophobe, misogynist or any of the other labels that so easily stick to maga chuds then perhaps you need to reassess your priorities in life


Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f*****g up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.
05:32pm 29/03/19 Permalink
Vash
5952 posts
Pretty spot on fpot.
It seems the only reason people voted for him was to 'own the libs'. and they constantly spout nonsense such as how the left are behaving now are the exact reason he'll win again in 2020. The dumb is next level.

It's almost like a religion, blind worship and mental gymnastics at the presence of opposing evidence of his policies, and psychological & behavioural issues.
06:22pm 29/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3466 posts
It seems the only reason people voted for him was to 'own the libs'. and they constantly spout nonsense such as how the left are behaving now are the exact reason he'll win again in 2020.


Yeah so it's because you think that that he is in with a strong shot.

For example the left pushing a baseless conspiracy theory for over two years in a flagrant attempt to undermine an election is probably a good reason not to trust them with power.

It's almost like a religion, blind worship and mental gymnastics at the presence of opposing evidence of his policies, and psychological & behavioural issues.


Yeah so you should probably sit out on "ability to follow the evidence" when you've pushed the President of the United States of America is a Russian agent.
06:51pm 29/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2302 posts

Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f*****g up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.

those f*****g elite guys



Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f*****g up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.

is this the pauline hanson defense? everyone else is elite so i represent the common man?
09:38pm 29/03/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
679 posts
First of all I accept the findings of the report.
One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one. Plenty of examples of bizarre behaviour and circumstantial evidence that I thought would be explained are now unexplained.


lol
09:41pm 29/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3467 posts
Quoted twice for extra relevance.

I can explain what I mean because you obviously don't understand would you like that redhat?

Before you answer I want you to ponder this quote really f*****g carefully ok

I guess I just wanted trump gone really badly, and a positive finding by Mueller would have made that happen quickly.


There is no evidence trump attempted to subvert democracy. The report indicates he actually rebuffed Russian attempts to collude. Now turn your noodle up to eleven and think about what going all in on claiming he did means for your position if you're wrong. Even more so if you did it on flimsy/no evidence. To make that jump for your little mind. That's an "anti-facist" being quoted.

is this the pauline hanson defense? everyone else is elite so i represent the common man?


No and try not to be so dumb.
09:53pm 29/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24288 posts
Anyone who supports him


is what we refer to as The Deplorables.

Lecturing holier than thou types who still don't get it.

I love watching Tucker Carlson's recaps of every insane thing CNN/MSNBC/entire fake news industry said and how their fake reality has just collapsed in a heap.

Where to now, what's the next imagined crusade? Who would ever listen to CNN again? Trump's rally today was on point. He kicked the s*** out of the fake news. Just in- time for 2020. He should thank Mueller.
11:36pm 29/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3468 posts
Lecturing holier than thou types who still don't get it.


And it's becoming very clear they aren't going to.

Pennsylvania hasn't gone red since Regan and the best they can come up with is they must be racist homophobes.

I'm sure raven will jump in any second now with a big talk for fpot about Ad hominem is a logical fallacy with that picture book he likes while simultaneously claiming only smart people (God how hysterically self refuting is that s***) vote left (because he like totally gets ad hominem, the perils of a picture book education I suppose).

Literally two posts in a week and fpot can do nothing better than howl isms into the ether against people who voted a way he didn't like.
09:08am 30/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2303 posts
03:46pm 30/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3469 posts

No and try not to be so dumb.


Good to see you went with hold my beer there redhat.

Scrap the US alliance. Greens shooting for a solid 2% there hey. Some of those left wing "smarts" we hear about.
04:17pm 30/03/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2304 posts
Do you only disagree with one point? What's dumb matey?

I don't think they mean scrap being allies, it just means not automatically offering support for every war. What is smart about that? You're a thinking man do you think we should have backed Iraq?
05:07pm 30/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24289 posts
The Green have no way to fund or deliver those pie in the sky promises. They are uni student skill level.
07:01pm 30/03/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3470 posts
Scrap the US alliance.
What's dumb matey?


Do you want a do over? You look like you need a do over.

Let me help you with that. That point alone is reason enough not to vote for them. But here's the kicker. If they don't really mean it and they are too f*****g dumb to add nuance themselves that also is a stand alone deal breaker.
07:02pm 30/03/19 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3393 posts
They are uni student skill level.


Tell us more about University students infi
07:07pm 30/03/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24290 posts


Tell us more about University students infi


You were never involved in or observed Uni politics? It hurts to watch.

What more is to tell? These days they describe themselves as "adulting" if they iron their shirt. That's the Greens: "because we are hopelessly retarded, we think everyone else requires overbearing govt regulation too. Except for drug, drugs are great."

Churrr
08:01pm 30/03/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39774 posts
That's the Greens: "because we are hopelessly retarded, we think everyone else requires overbearing govt regulation too. Except for drug, drugs are great."
bahah this made me laugh because you made me think that if one distils it down to just those two things:

one is the party of corporate regulation and personal liberties
one is the party of corporate liberties and personal regulation
03:02pm 01/04/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2305 posts
oh snaps hillsong sharia law isn't fitting the personal liberties narrative.
10:42pm 01/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
680 posts
How is banning hate speech supporting personal liberty? That is basically the exact antithesis to personal liberty.
08:39am 02/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1139 posts
"personal liberties"

Trog, can you review my posts, see that I have not been trolling, and acknowledge that restricting my post limit to 3 days for about a year is biased and excessive? I think a left wing admin unnecessarily silencing a right of centre user is demonstration of the selective personal liberty violation your belief system condones. Can you reset it? You know social media well enough to agree the ABC plays games in favour of left wing, with an anti right bias in the way it headlines news and selects which news to give more air to, and which angle to put on news, and what is news, and what is not news.

Where is my post that deserves this 3 day limit? I think you will find some of fpots and Vash's content worse. Ask Vash. My behaviour has been remarkably better. Troll free.

Here is a poll I saw today

https://i.imgur.com/4WLRSRH.jpg

I doubt it's accurate but it's surprising.
11:00am 02/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1140 posts
06:21pm 08/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24291 posts
well it depends if they are considered progressive - you can see wearing an items of clothing that represents the oppression of women is very woke. is ardern also for gay rights? i expect so, that is the duplicity of progressives.
11:51am 09/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1141 posts

"Updated about an hour ago" but sitting as the 6'th article down (well down the page) on the news page.

Just after the "Opinion" on "We found a quicker way to multiply really big numbers"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/political-polling-company-ucomms-ties-to-unions-cfmmeu-and-actu/10945798

A major opinion polling company used by GetUp!, Greenpeace, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age and some political candidates is co-owned by union heavyweights the CFMMEU and the ACTU, an ABC investigation has discovered.


Observe as it moves up the Most Popular list for "Past Hour" and "24 Hours" yet remains off screen on the main page below articles that have not made it into the most popular list for "Past Hour" and "24 Hours".

Midday update: It's now below 16 articles but moving up the Most Popular list for "Past Hour".

Evening update: Removed it from the front page news within 10 hours and turned it into one of those little side bar articles well down below scroll of main page view. It's sitting 2 steps down from "We found a quicker way to multiply really big numbers".
11:37am 10/04/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
974 posts
Polling companies should never be trusted. They are biased because of money. They want whoever to buy their product which is the result of the poll, boring polls don't sell. Proper surveying requires a lot of work to construct a good unbiased survey that will question the participant multiple ways before coming to conclusion. Most will utilise proper statistics, not solely pie/bar charts. I've never seen one post their questions, number surveyed and location.

You know why you never see proper reporting of these statistics? because it's a f*****g joke. You can literally create a survey with the majority of responders agreeing to the statement: Hilter did nothing wrong. It just takes crafting the right question, target the right demographic and surveying just the right amount of people.

tldr: polls are dumb because companies are FOR profit, people are gullible and should never be trusted, opinions change.
04:50pm 14/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24292 posts
Newspoll has a pretty good record of picking the Federal election winner.

Political parties employ polling companies throughout the campaign. They need fast polls, not super precise. A thorough poll which arrives after election day is useless. The newspapers and parties are looking for the direction of voters and top issues.
05:36pm 14/04/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41300 posts
lols, liberals are going to be smashed to f***.

everyone hates scomo (c***) and dutton may as well be the grim reaper.
05:42pm 14/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24293 posts
It's gonna be closer than you think.
05:49pm 14/04/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41301 posts
no it wont, not even in your dreams
05:52pm 14/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24294 posts
you state how many seats majority you think ALP will have, and your wager, and I will take the other side of the bet.
05:55pm 14/04/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41302 posts
no. i dont like to gamble. i prefer my beers in the hand, rather than in the bush.
05:59pm 14/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
681 posts
Spook: I know the result of the upcoming election
infi: Care to stand behind that claim in any meaningful way?
Spook: Nope
08:36am 15/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1142 posts
I just don't find Bill, the union man very convincing or impressive. I prefered Rudd far more than Bill. I didn't like Gillard much.

Scomo's not fantastc but I can stomach him more than Bill.

How did we get a toff speaking person like Turnbull? I prefered Abbott.

It's likely to be close. If they had someone a bit more impressive than Bill I think Labor would walk it in. Bill doesn't sell the message very well.
10:36pm 16/04/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2307 posts
https://www.liberal.org.au/our-policies

6 years in government and they're taking 4 policies to the election.

Obviously almost everything is done.
12:46pm 17/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24295 posts
You will find they are added as they announced during the campaign. But good find!

ALP wipes policies

Bill Shorten was blindsided ­yesterday when Labor’s official campaign website deleted reams of information explaining his ­signature reforms to negative gearing and capital gains tax, and reposted simplified “fact sheets” with key details stripped out. Labor previously had almost 100 paragraphs posted on its housing policy, including charts and diagrams explaining the negative gearing and capital gains wind back, but this was reduced to just 10 paragraphs yesterday. The Opposition Leader was also caught out yesterday when he claimed there would be no new taxes on superannuation, despite Labor planning a $34 billion raid on nest egg ­savings.
01:21pm 17/04/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39776 posts
are policies even needed any more though? it's 2019
06:24pm 17/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24296 posts
It's not like the party is going to adhere to their policies and it's not like the senate is going to allow them to implement them
06:42pm 17/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26528 posts
So basically Barr lied and produced a completely false summary of the report. The absurd thing about it is that he knew that as soon as the report was released the deception would become obvious. Barr also held a press conference a few hours before the report was released. This was again a measure to buy time - I guess trump and his team are in on the fact that his base will believe what comes from him (and make no mistake, the AG at this moment is him) above all else. That's what the constant disparaging of the press and labelling them enemy of the people is all about. They're the enemy and trump is the saviour.

But it's all there and it is completely obvious that trump engaged in illegal activity. Barr's behaviour is very alarming and bizarre. Why on earth would he sacrifice himself like this? Is he protecting trump or something else?

trump being so hilariously inept that he was manipulated all the way to POTUS is pretty funny in a sad kind of way. For those people who supported or defended him - do you feel the slightest bit remorseful for that? Or is this one of this grim death things, where years later you'll still be living the fantasy a Russian troll farm has created for you?

Unfortunately for trump the smart people who got him to POTUS obviously didn't stick around to cover it up., So what isn't technically a criminal conspiracy has spawned a whole bunch of potential obstruction of justice charges. That's how one obstructs justice for a non-existent crime.

From this point forward every day trump occupies the Oval Office the credibility of the USA drops and drops and drops. When the Democrats get back in and try and fix this god awful mess imagine all the s*** they're going to find.
04:50pm 19/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24297 posts
All this "illegal conduct" yet zero indictments. I'm not sure you understand how the criminal process works.

I never knew that one of the key lawyers in the Mueller team previously worked for the Hillary foundation. Imagine the reaction if an ex-Trump lawyer investigated a Democrat. It s impossible to imagine.

This investigation which CNN was covertly recorded as knowing to be a 'giant nothing burget'" is a blight on the office of President. It's amazing Trump permitted it to proceed. He should have just shut it down way earlier. The people in favour of the investigation were never going to vote for him anyway.

The great news is that now the Justice department can get into investigating the terrible abuse of power within the law enforcement community and hold the ring leaders to account. This will be a far more interesting chapter.
05:22pm 19/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26529 posts
So just to be clear your stance is that the details contained in the report are false, trump's been running a lawful and legitimate administration and is in fact the victim of a conspiracy by the so-called deep state who are just so damn jealous of how awesome he is?
05:52pm 19/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24298 posts
Have you even read into the methods used to obtain FISA warrants on the campaign?

The text messages from Peter Strzok?

Jim Comey leaking information to undermine the President?

The players involved in this corrupt investigation are the real criminals. Russia tried their best to get to Trump's campaign but none of them conspired with a foreign government to interfere with the election - thus no indictments.

The Democrat party on the other hand solicited fake intel from a Russian which was then used as a basis for wiretapping of American citizens by the FBI. Feels bad man.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http://pre14.deviantart.net/1226/th/pre/f/2015/148/0/5/sad_pepe__feels_bad_man__vector_by_hirussai-d8uq43y.png&f=1
05:59pm 19/04/19 Permalink
taggs
6598 posts
I'm a classic "never trumper" establishment sort of guy (more libertarian than conservative). I wanted Carly Fiorina to get up and then when she didn't I hoped Marco Rubio would. Hate Trump's persona, basic character and general vibe. His economics are retarded (as an economic-y sort of guy). He won't do anything to manage the US' budget and entitlement issues because he's a narcissist and can't do anything that would upset his base. His SCOTUS and federal court picks are great, probably more to the advisors he apparently listens to than his temperament. Thought I should put that on the table before I ask fpot to cite which law exactly trump has broken.
06:00pm 19/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26530 posts
Basically,

- there was enough circumstantial evidence to justify an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 US Election
- trump repeatedly tried to interfere with this investigation
- the investigation concluded that Russia interfered in the election, and trump's people were receptive to the help
- it also concluded that there was not enough evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges
- for very mysterious and unknown reasons trump obstructed justice in an investigation that didn't result in indictments filed against him
06:34pm 19/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3471 posts
So basically Barr lied and produced a completely false summary of the report.


Fpot has definitely read the report. He definitely knows what crimes specifically trump can be charged with.

Fpot this is your fire can't melt steel moment.

And you're failing.
You aren't smart. You aren't righteous.

The above post is literally the opposite of the facts.

This is ongoing proof the "libs" are ambivalent about democracy that doesn't go their way
09:00pm 19/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1143 posts

"I just saw this Caucasian guy wielding a knife and the cops were trying to pacify him but he wouldn't stop," the man, who declined to give his name, told the ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-19/police-officer-stabbed-at-sydneys-central-station/11032586
11:39pm 19/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3472 posts

there was enough circumstantial evidence to justify an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 US Election
- trump repeatedly tried to interfere with this investigation
- the investigation concluded that Russia interfered in the election, and trump's people were receptive to the help
- it also concluded that there was not enough evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges
- for very mysterious and unknown reasons trump obstructed justice in an investigation that didn't result in indictments filed against him


This is such a loose description of the facts. Watch those goal posts move. Watching that cognitive dissonance playout in real time, delicious.

The investigation wasn't into Russian interference generally. It was very specifically meant to investigate collusion between Russia and the trump campaign.

Now on that front a multi-million dollar 2 year investigation turned up exactly zero evidence of that.

It is that fact that makes the obstruction argument beyond farcical. It requires you believe he obstructed an investigation where there is no crime. In essence the argument is Trump professing his innocence is obstruction of justice. This from someone who is f*****g obsessed with the rise of the new Nazis, is convinced it's acceptable to overturn a free and fair election because someone who is in fact innocent said they were innocent and therefore "obstructed" the investigation into his innocence.

That's next level police state s*** capitan I hate fascists.

nytimes reporting Steele dossier likely contains Russian disinformation

Another day the shambolic collusion narrative falls even further apart.

That choking is a ways off hey fpot.
06:21pm 20/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24299 posts
And to think the MSM and Democrats instead of accepting this outcome, and wondering how they let this flawed information fuel their prejudice, they DOUBLE DOWN. This coverage gives Trump's rhetoric of FAKE NEWS more legitimacy.

Imagine investing 2 years of airtime on a claim which turned out to be entirely false. It must be utterly devastating.
06:32pm 20/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3473 posts
Even that times article is desperately trying to mitigate the damage of their own goal.

But Mr. Mueller, after a two-year investigation involving roughly 40 F.B.I. agents and other specialists, provided no evidence to support the claim that the adviser had collected a brokerage fee for the sale of a share of the Russian oil giant Rosneft


Thats how they are describing cater pages alleged bribe. Note how they leave out the fee was supposed to be worth 16 billion USD. And was paid in 2016.

So a newly minted multi billionaire who put a Russian agent in Whitehouse for some reason wasn't balls deep in coke and hookers in a non-extradition country.

The fact he was still in US is clear proof it didn't happen
07:51pm 20/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26531 posts
Imagine investing 2 years of airtime on a claim which turned out to be entirely false. It must be utterly devastating..
One of the big disappointments when Barr falsely summarised the report was missing out on how you'd face reality when it finally came. I should have guessed it would just be this mundane, childish 'the opposite is actually true' rendition I'm seeing here today.

Is this how you face black and white reality irl as well? Probably why you didn't make it on your own and daddy had to rescue you with a job in his office. Kind of like the sons of another moron, deemed too dumb to prosecute because they were too stupid to realise they were breaking the law.

The only reason trump isn't being impeached this second is purely political. As soon as he leaves office he'll be charged with a whole bunch of crimes that were committed while he was president. Then there'll be all the other stuff they find once the dems get back in and fix this god awful mess.

Congrats on being one the dumbest muthaf*****s ever to draw air.
08:49pm 20/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3474 posts
You touched a nerve without even mentioning him infi.

Fpot will be able to say specifically how Barr lied noting that Mueller immediately corrected the record when BuzzFeed said trump asked Cohen to lie to congress but hasn't said anything about Barrs summary.

Fpot can talk about infis dad though.

Still waiting for that choking you utter moron.

The only reason trump isn't being impeached this second is purely political. As soon as he leaves office he'll be charged with a whole bunch of crimes that were committed while he was president. Then there'll be all the other stuff they find once the dems get back in and fix this god awful mess.


Impeachment is purely political you epic dumbass.

They aren't pulling the trigger because there isn't a compelling underlying crime.

You list *specifically* the crimes that have been committed.
09:24pm 20/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
682 posts
Wow fpot back with the renewed vigour of a classic SJW clinging desperately onto another fairytale after his last one was completely eviscerated. It's like a broken record.
08:16am 22/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26532 posts
The 'fairytale' was 'eviscerated' by a false summary from the AG of the Mueller Report. A false summary I stupidly believed because I didn't think it was possible for someone to lie so brazenly when the truth was right around the corner. Now we've turned that corner, the truth is out and it is worse than anyone could have imagined. For trump and his supporters anyway.

Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference, we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.
02:44pm 22/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3475 posts
Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference


Where does the report say that fpot. Link specifically.

Barr did not lie at all. Mueller has not said he lied. they worked together on the redactions.

The report says the Russians engaged in a disinformation campaign. It very expressly clears trump of cooperating with trump, making the obstruction argument impossible.

we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.


lol. pure fantasy. and he has the hide to chide infi about the deep state. The first law officer in the US is compromised. the s***ting of the bed in 2020 is going to be glorious.
04:22pm 22/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24300 posts
The 'fairytale' was 'eviscerated' by a false summary from the AG of the Mueller Report. A false summary I stupidly believed because I didn't think it was possible for someone to lie so brazenly when the truth was right around the corner. Now we've turned that corner, the truth is out and it is worse than anyone could have imagined. For trump and his supporters anyway.

Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference, we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.


Worked with the Russians? Are you high? Where did you get this idea? CNN is not an acceptable source. Can you reference the report to support that claim?

Are you ok fpot?

It is important to conduct welfare checks on people suffering acute TDS.
04:38pm 22/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26533 posts
Yeah it's in Volume 1 mate. I'll say it again, I concede that not enough evidence was found at this time to warrant criminal conspiracy charges.

Once you've finished reading that you can move onto Volume 2. That covers the bit where trump interfered in the investigation that took place. That's the creamy bit because when trump is no longer president he'll be able to be indicted on those.
07:27pm 22/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24301 posts
Where does it say ANYWHERE that the trump campaign worked with Russians?
07:49pm 22/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26534 posts
Volume 1, Section IV on page 66. It is titled, 'Russian Governments Links To and Contacts With the Trump Campaign'.
08:03pm 22/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26535 posts
At this point I really can't help but notice it's just you and dazed railing against this and well, you're both dumber than dogs.

There is so much potential for good faith discussion on this, so if you're a normal person and think I'm way off please tell me. Because it really seems clear to me that the AG lied, the report is comprehensive in detailing trump and the trump campaign's crimes, lack of morality and complete and utter unfitness for office, and that the so called fake news pretty much got it as right as they could have with all of the interference that was going on.
08:12pm 22/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24302 posts
none of that comes even close to constituting "working with" the Russian government. when a guy comes up to you and says "hey i might have some information that may be of interest to you" - and you reply "oh yeah, i'll have a look" that's what you call a "nothing-burger".

i can't believe your constant reference to this "complete and utter lack of morality". the democrat campaign
- procured a bulls*** dossier of smear and garbage
- from a russian
- unverified material
- used as a basis for wiretapping of american citizens
- in turn kicked off a 2 year investigation which had no chance of proving a crime occurred.

Thats completely kosher, I guess. As I read the report, Trump campaign's contact with Russians is moreso through inexperience and buffonery, which is several steps below the DNC's status as pure f**cing evil. And to think this is the same DNC wqhich rigger the primary for Bernie to lose against Hillary. These Democrats are the political equivalent of "Scumbag Steve". The report demonstrates that at every steep of the way when Trump agent's were approached to "co-ordinate" they rebuffed those advances.

There is so much potential for good faith discussion on this,


I will reply to you in similar terms. Trump is not a Russian asset. The suggestion is simply ridiculous. He has expelled Russian diplomats, bombed Syrian targets (Russian ally), imposed financial controls on Russian oligarchs - more than Obama ever did. He loves America through and through, yet is constantly accused of treachery.

The Russians wanted to cause chaos. They has no idea the threat Trump truly posed to Russia. They just wanted to disrupt the status quo of establishment puppets but had no idea what they bought into.

Lastly from the point of pragmatism. #RussiaCollusion truthers need to understand that the race has now been run and lost. Any further energy expended in this issue is wasted and will not in any way advance the potential for beating Trump in 2020 or winning Senate. Main St does not care about #RussiaCollusion - only diehards who are not swinging voters. It's time to move on, as there will be no convictions and no impeachment will ever succeed. The only reason someone would persist with prosecuting this case is to hear the sound of their own voice.
08:34pm 22/04/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26536 posts
Except when that guy is a powerful enemy of the nation you wish to lead, and the information they are offering is stolen.

The reason Russia helped trump is because they knew having him as president would reduce what was once a proud nation and a pillar of democracy into the shambolic laughing stock it has now become. They didn't just do it for the luls like you seem you be suggesting. There are many instances where contact can be explained by trump being dumb, some are less easily explained that way. Mainly he used buffers which is SOP for any criminal organisation.

He loves America through and through
haha seriously?
08:44pm 22/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3476 posts
the report is comprehensive in detailing trump and the trump campaign's crimes,


Watch carefully as no link to a page in the publically available report is ever produced.

The report is explicit that no crimal charges can be brought.

Here is a quote from page 5.

the investigation did not establish that members of the trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities


Here's is a good faith discussion point. What does co-ordinate mean in this context. Here's a hint. It's not a criminal description. They use conspiracy.

Fpot wants to have a good faith discussion about a document he very plainly has not read.

The reason Russia helped trump is because they knew having him as president would reduce what was once a proud nation and a pillar of democracy into the shambolic laughing stock it has now become


What does this even mean. Watch the climb down. The report supposedly details crimes he can't and won't name.
09:03pm 22/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
683 posts
fpot reads "links to" and "contact with" as "worked with" and "obstructed", then proceeds to call us dumber than dogs. It's more sad than anything. Get checked for an aneurysm.
08:17am 23/04/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2308 posts
09:51pm 23/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1144 posts

These Green voters are a concern:

Saudi Arabia has beheaded 37 Saudi citizens, most of them minority Shiites, in a mass execution across the country for alleged terrorism-related crimes, and publicly pinned the executed body and severed head of a convicted Sunni extremist to a pole as a warning to others.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-24/saudi-arabia-beheads-37-for-alleged-terrorism-related-crimes/11041572

"All immigrants can retain their cultural values without being any less Australian".


89% Greens voters "Agree".

"How many immigrants should Australia admit?"


60% Greens voters say "More"

"Boats carrying asylum seekers should be turned back"


77% Green voters "Disagree"

Cultural values are the core principles and ideals upon which an entire community exists.


For example, secular and non secular government. Sharia law. These are "Cultural values". Cultural values is not pizza and street food.


11:45am 24/04/19 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3394 posts
08:24pm 24/04/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2309 posts
Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.
04:37pm 27/04/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24303 posts
Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.


It's a criminal sentence passed by their legislators.
04:57pm 27/04/19 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21582 posts
Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies
06:15pm 27/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
684 posts
Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.


No but things like thinking women are less than dogs being translated into Sharia law are good examples of how some laws reflect cultural values.
07:03pm 27/04/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3477 posts
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/27/22/12801124-0-image-a-32_1556402051273.jpg

In which the "we mustn't use racist dog whistles" nytimes publishes nazi grade anti-Semitism.

When the nazi hunters are so s*** at their job they print nazi propaganda. What a time to be alive.
11:31am 28/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1145 posts
"Cultural values" can include:

- Men eat first, then the women
03:26pm 28/04/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2310 posts

Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies

Hi pave!

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-29/pill-testing-trial-at-groovin-the-moo-for-second-time/11053350

How good is it that some people can change their mind on policy?

It's almost like once someone experiences something like say living somewhere new, they would adopt a new mindset
02:25pm 29/04/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41309 posts
Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies


http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3615679

going bunta
05:25pm 29/04/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
685 posts
10:11pm 30/04/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1146 posts

ABC News

United Australia Party, Clive Palmer... is a protectionist nationalist without the xenophobic baggage.


Implying some other parties are xenophobic

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-02/federal-election-what-does-clive-palmer-actually-want/11074364

It's "Your ABC".


09:55pm 02/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2311 posts
who you gonna vote for dazed?
12:25am 03/05/19 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18549 posts
Are you guys STILL going on with this thread? Surely it causes you all more frustration and ill feelings than any positive outcomes you get from it? You aren't going to change each others minds at all, specially fpot and Infi.
12:59pm 03/05/19 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6635 posts
>Implying some other parties are xenophobic

You think that Anning’s, Love Australia or Leave, Rise Up Australia Party and PHON aren't xenophobic?
03:52pm 03/05/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39784 posts
haha I was wondering what Anning's policies were as stated & went to his website to find out but it's white font on a white background (seriously). pressing ctrl-a seemed like a lot of effort but I did it anyway and his first policy (literally) is to make Australia "an English speaking, predominantly European Christian Commonwealth, as originally described in 1901 when Australia as a nation was founded"

so... yeh. imagine being that scared of foreigners. to be fair, he "is the great-grandson of colonial-era settlers who emigrated from Britain" so I guess he's entitled to his hot takes on immigration
04:00pm 03/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
686 posts
ABC promotes Clive Palmer because he is more likely to take Liberal votes than Labor votes. ABC likes their pro-ABC Labor party. Basic propaganda.
04:20pm 03/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5953 posts


Peterson was pathetically unprepared for this debate. Still interesting though.



Chomsky nails the situation again.
03:54pm 06/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24305 posts
Chomsky says Democrats have gone to the right? I think he stopped watching American politics around the end of 2015.
04:21pm 06/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
687 posts
Trust Vash to take what he wants from a video.
05:27pm 06/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1147 posts
Trog misleads with his choice of words.

"Foreigners" is not an ideal word. We have lived with some groups enough to not regard them as "foreign".

"Fear". I'm not keen on BBQ sauce. I'm not afraid of BBQ sauce.

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TROG PC's things that conflict with him: "You cannot post yet! - Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 13094 seconds"
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07:33pm 06/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3478 posts
Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies


Hi pave.

Are you guys STILL going on with this thread? Surely it causes you all more frustration and ill feelings than any positive outcomes you get from it? You aren't going to change each others minds at all, specially fpot and Infi.


No but watching fpot turn into an outright conspiracy theorist from reading the guardian in real time is hugely entertaining.
08:31pm 06/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5954 posts

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzqmp/bernie-sanders-calls-for-a-national-right-to-repair-law-for-farmers

Man, it just shows how far right bats*** crazy the U.S is when i saw this policy proposal.
Your private property isnt actually your private property. From the country that says the government should have no part in your private affairs. Also, pro choice is now a bad thing, despite us saying this was fine 30 years ago.
08:36pm 06/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1148 posts
It happens in some ways here Vash with car manufacturers. They are making it increasingly difficult for non company mechanics to service vehicles. It's pretty simple, when you buy something, give consideration to how you will maintain, store and dispose of it. I don't plan to buy a John Deer tractor, and my local non-company mechanic has the gear to do my car.

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TROG PC's things that conflict with him: "You cannot post yet! - Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 13094 seconds"
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07:44pm 07/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
688 posts
Don't worry Nmag, you're not alone. I've had this for a decade on my account:

"Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 30562 seconds."

Your private property isnt actually your private property. From the country that says the government should have no part in your private affairs.


Pretty sure John Deere would have terms and conditions to agree to before purchasing their equipment. So that's one private contract the farm owner has with a private company. So that's one blindingly obvious flaw in your argument.

Pretty sure the Government is now demanding it regulate this interaction with the right-to-repair legislation. So that's an example of how the government is now interfering in that private contract.

You sure know how to get things completely wrong, Vash.

Also, pro choice is now a bad thing, despite us saying this was fine 30 years ago.


I know it is a knee-jerk for lefties to simplify everything to ridiculousness in order to appear credible Vash but try real hard to understand the abortion debate has nothing to do with choice. The argument is whether or not an unborn child has rights.
08:26am 08/05/19 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16920 posts
lol I think that post limiters would be turned off by now, its not like this forum is struggling with too many contributions
09:43am 08/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26538 posts
10:08am 08/05/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39785 posts
I vote we stop talking about the USA when there's so much awesome stuff to talk about the Australian election



these are pretty funny although I can't vouch for their accuracy but based on what I've seen they seem to be fairly on point.
10:38am 08/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3479 posts
600+ former DOJ prosecutors agree that trump has committed obstruction of justice.

I am a wacky conspiracy theorist


Strange that Mueller didn't agree with them. Because he has been really reticent in charging people.

Notice how it doesn't deal at any point with constitutional prerogative.

Neither does the letter. Fpot gets easily dazzled by political theatre. It's a sign of how smart he is.
02:39pm 08/05/19 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
155 posts
To be fair, you come across as a bit of a dill too PornoPete.
06:01pm 08/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24306 posts
The great thing about a bunch of prosecutors putting their name to a letter saying they would prosecute Trump is none of them have to worry about the risk of humiliation if they lost in court. All care and no responsibility.

Meanwhile the ACTUAL investigation team stacked with Democrat donors couldn't justify an prosecution.

The Australian election is farce. Shorten is on again with blatant lies about cuts to spending which literally did not occur. Morrison as competent as he is doesn't deserve to win, the Libs deserve a term
in Opposition as penance for making Turnbull PM. I can only hope it's another hung parliament and that a lot of sitting members are turfed out to hasten the entire Parliament's renewal. These career politicians are a scourge.
06:22pm 08/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3480 posts
To be fair, you come across as a bit of a dill too PornoPete.


If you say so. I did predict Trump will never be charged with collusion and that Russia is a coping mechanism more than two years ago.

It's been proven exactly correct.
07:22pm 08/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1149 posts
Currently we have people putting swastikas on jewish liberal candidates placard. I got a photo of a mutilated Greens placard. I wish they got rid of all the placards and most of the bulls*** and had to fill out a column in a huge sortable/filterable table regarding their commitment view on various issues. With measurements if they can put in a measure. Then we can look at the huge table and the media can drone on about it. Then score them on 6 pm news how they going with their column now during the term.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11092548-3x2-940x627.jpg

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07:58pm 08/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5955 posts


tHe aBc iS sO LeFt bIaSed
09:37pm 10/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1150 posts
7:30 report is government funded? It's a trash show.

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10:20pm 10/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3481 posts
Yes the ABC demonstrated it's bias to the liberals by asking shorten what his climate change policy will cost. As a percentage of GDP.

Lord have mercy.

The unrelenting hate spewed forth by Leigh Sales by having the temerity of ask a question if Bill Shorten makes me weak at the knees.

It's like watching Hitler. Who does she think she is asking what a policy will cost.
07:28am 11/05/19 Permalink
Jeffro
Queensland
518 posts
You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.
08:34am 11/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5956 posts
You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.


Not even close. This line is said alot. The liberals are *far* worse than labor. Not that i vote for labor, but ill still preference them higher than the libs.
04:21pm 11/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3482 posts
Not even close. This line is said alot. The liberals are *far* worse than labor. Not that i vote for labor, but ill still preference them higher than the libs.


No no vash. The actual question here is do you believe the ABC is biased in favour of the liberal party. That was the thesis of the video you posted. The video which is incontrovertible evidence of the damage reading Chomsky uncritically does to you I might add.

Let's see if you can cover yourself in glory like the last time when you didn't understand the definition of refugee.

Hey super reasonable and definately doesn't take voting direction from comedy channels on YouTube trog why don't you weigh in here seeing as you are definitely against the propagation of false information.

I mean trog posted about how polls say the ABC is like for serious totally unbiased. So an accusation that it could be biased in favour of liberals will be meet with steely faced resistance I'm sure.

Cause if he says nothing..... Maybe he's not so sure.

To be crystall clear. I'm might start taking other certain folks to task if see this. I'm confident I won't.

I expect raven, phooks and fpot will also immediately chime in to defend the ABC's defiled honour.
04:59pm 11/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26540 posts
If Labor softened their stance on offshore processing I'd consider them a viable voting option again. Maybe.

Gotta say it's kind of refreshing to see ScoMo actually acknowledge the existence of climate change. Baby steps and all that.
06:36pm 11/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5957 posts


Conservative 'intellectual'
lol. This is great.
06:51pm 11/05/19 Permalink
taggs
6602 posts
edit: f*** me i shouldn't have responded. im stupid.
07:00pm 11/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3483 posts
Gotta say it's kind of refreshing to see ScoMo actually acknowledge the existence of climate change. Baby steps and all that.


Hey you know what that doesn't spell. It's patently ridiculous to accuse the ABC of bias in favour of the liberal party. Funny how that goes.

Conservative 'intellectual'
lol. This is great.


Andrew Niel is upper management of the spectator. That's a video of a conservative putting a conservative to the sword you epic moron.

Search 'Andrew Niel Bregman' on YouTube for epic luls
07:02pm 11/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26541 posts
You really don't find the Shapiro video funny? Who doesn't enjoy seeing a smug little twerp melt-the-f***-down the second he's outside the safety zone of the US media and his twitter followers?
07:05pm 11/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
983 posts
You really don't find the Shapiro video funny? Who doesn't enjoy seeing a smug little twerp melt-the-f***-down the second he's outside the safety zone of the US media and his twitter followers?

It was great. It's interesting to see conservatives from the UK discuss issues with US conservatives. The jib he threw at sherpiro at the end was great. It took me by surprise that he's a practicing orthodox jew.
08:25pm 11/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3484 posts
edit: f*** me i shouldn't have responded. im stupid.


Is it really stupidity though?
09:02pm 11/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
689 posts
NeverTrump Shapiro has always had issues being a conservative commentator first and a whiny b**** second. Plus he punches right ALL the time which wins him precisely zero friends.

Don't get me wrong though Ben is still far and above any degenerate on the left.
10:51am 12/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
985 posts
Degenerate is such a great word. Anything I disagree with, yeah lets label it as degeneracy. As if humanities morals are non-dynamic ever changing.

If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?
06:04pm 13/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3485 posts
Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.
07:02pm 13/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1151 posts
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/6075994-1x1-340x340.jpg

I already voted.

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08:09pm 13/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5958 posts
right is intellectual retardation?


All signs point to yes. Source: Shapiro and friends. And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished. and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.
08:37pm 13/05/19 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16922 posts
You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.

Its important to understand that in Australia you must preference either the ALP or the LNP. For 99% of seats this will determine who gets your *actual* vote, regardless of who you preference #1.

As such it is important to be aware of the policies and positions of the major parties so that you can cast an informed vote.
06:20am 14/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3486 posts
and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.


Yeah you don't know who Andrew Niel is do you.

Just to get the team self own nice and clear:




If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?
Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.
And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished.


I mean I'm sure vash definitely knows what franking is and was about to put together a cutting remark. Biding his time don't you know.
07:28am 14/05/19 Permalink
Jeffro
Queensland
519 posts

Its important to understand that in Australia you must preference either the ALP or the LNP. For 99% of seats this will determine who gets your *actual* vote, regardless of who you preference #1.

As such it is important to be aware of the policies and positions of the major parties so that you can cast an informed vote.


I was a member of the Labor party until recently and am still a union member.
08:51am 14/05/19 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16923 posts
^

How's that going for you?
09:05am 14/05/19 Permalink
Jeffro
Queensland
520 posts
^

How's that going for you?


Fine. I just wont vote for Labor as long as Jackie Trad is pulling Queensland Labor strings and Penny Wong is still running the Senate.
09:10am 14/05/19 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16924 posts
Fine. I just wont vote for Labor as long as Jackie Trad is pulling Queensland Labor strings and Penny Wong is still running the Senate.

OK, but will you preference the LNP before them? That's what matters ultimately. You don't get to vote and not choose between them in the Lower House.
10:55am 14/05/19 Permalink
Jeffro
Queensland
521 posts

OK, but will you preference the LNP before them? That's what matters ultimately.


Probably but I live in a safe Labor seat. More interested in who holds the balance of power in the Senate tbh.
11:35am 14/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
690 posts
Degenerate is such a great word. Anything I disagree with, yeah lets label it as degeneracy. As if humanities morals are non-dynamic ever changing.

If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?


People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate.
12:08pm 14/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5960 posts


People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate.


So in other words.. the right are degenerates too. Got it.
03:44pm 14/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
691 posts


So in other words.. the right are degenerates too. Got it.


Neocons, cuckservatives who think the left can be reasoned with and the like are also degenerates. But things like "Desmond is Amazing" isn't a phenomena that you see on the right. That's all I'm saying.
12:07pm 15/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1152 posts
I know of a guy who finds her really sexy

https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/sites/sbs.com.au.guide/files/styles/full/public/c2c2508a-a705-4c92-a559-516e909f75ae_1468822831.jpeg

I prefer Julie Bishop. She's pretty hawt.

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07:38pm 15/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5961 posts
Keneally wins if we're playing which politican we'd bang.


https://i.imgur.com/gyyjgZ5.jpg
10:30pm 15/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2313 posts
08:01pm 16/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
986 posts
Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.

???? okay ????
All signs point to yes. Source: Shapiro and friends. And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished. and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.

I was being sarcastic man. The "left" nor the "right" are any one thing.


People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate..

This is pedantic nitpicking that's really annoying. Stop moving the goal post.
09:33pm 16/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3487 posts
???? okay ????


I set my point out in a series of helpful quotes.

Big shame about Bob Hawke. Truly a great man.
07:35am 17/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41323 posts
keneally hot af.

julie bishop goes good for an old duck.
12:27pm 17/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
692 posts

This is pedantic nitpicking that's really annoying. Stop moving the goal post.


Nah it's actually a really important distinction these days because the left can't seem to understand the difference between the individual and the collective.
07:04pm 17/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41324 posts
where we doing results watch to see scomo (C***) get the boot?
01:35pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5962 posts


Nah it's actually a really important distinction these days because the left can't seem to understand the difference between the individual and the collective.


Swap out left with right, and its exactly the same.
No political side is immune to this.
01:45pm 18/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24307 posts
channel 2 abc. i got a bet on sportsbet that they win the night's ratings

anthony green no ads need i say more
01:57pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5963 posts
I can't think of an election in my lifetime with two more boring, fake, unpersonable leaders as the choices for PM.
Abbott at least, was fun to meme and ridicule. But these two are so wooden and controlled in their behaviour. Wont somebody think of the memes?
02:39pm 18/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24308 posts
I think almost all current politicians are Lizard people.

Hawke and Howard looked real. Now they all look like Mark Lizardberg executing some AI program.
02:43pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2314 posts
anthony green no ads need i say more

Australia's national treasure.

The daily tele really f***ed it up for the libs when they went after shortens mum, his response was the only human thing seen this entire campaign.
03:26pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5964 posts
Late stage capitalism ehehe.
Have to wonder what effect it's having on society when social media companies pay alot of money figuring out how to hijack human psychology to keep you clicking and checking your likes/phone.

There's a trend of depression increasing , people have less close friends, more insecure about themselves. The highlight reel is what you see, and those people are trying to show to other highlight reels how well they're doing, while likely deeply unhappy and insecure. Bouncing off each other in a cruel disconnected way.

Funny (or sad) how the facade of choice and liberty is perhaps more invasive & totalitarian than any previous time in recent history. The public has been very cleverly deceived into thinking private access of every bit of information you type on your phone or recording every footstep you make, and where you go, is fine since its not the Government. (or isss it?)
What long term impacts this level of control these corporations have over people's psychology & private information remains to be seen.

But all is well. Continue to consume. Vote for this lizard. Btw climate change isn't real, something something climate has changed for all time etc etc.
04:12pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5965 posts
Also:
http://filteries.com/politics
found this neat little political simulator

Edit: Tones has been annihilated. Delicious.
04:57pm 18/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24309 posts
Edit: Tones has been annihilated. Delicious.


Oh and the LNP just won from behind. Told you it would be close Spook. ;)
09:55pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5966 posts
Doesn't matter. Tones is gone, its a victory.
Back to the usual programming of a two party 'democracy'
10:32pm 18/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3488 posts
I feel like this is election is another hard body blow for journalism and polling companies.

Howard was on the ABC talking about how it had a "wif of 1993". Seems accurate.
11:56pm 18/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1153 posts
Shorten's wife looked pretty.

Vash, I heard the Russian hacker bots corrupted our election.

https://i.imgflip.com/2qqpdl.jpg

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01:43am 19/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41325 posts
argh
05:53am 19/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
693 posts
Full explanation for Labor capitulation is this photo:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6zPuCPVsAALw5_.jpg
09:06am 19/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
987 posts
The LNP propaganda machine was running overtime. Well done.
12:13pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3489 posts
I wonder how much an attitude like that explains why Labor lost....
02:15pm 19/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24310 posts
Treat people like s*** and call them rich greedy bastards for wanting to keep their own money. Expectt them to vote against you.
02:29pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5967 posts
I would like to see how things would turn out if media corporations were worker, or consumer cooperatives instead of controlled by a mogul with an agenda. Make political parties publicly funded instead of by lobbyists. Create a federal ICAC.

I dont think anyone is opposed to the last two. (except lobbyists and politicians i guess) but the Greens are loony cos of GMOs and Nuclear or something.
02:46pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3490 posts
Yeah well if you hold yourself out as believing in evidenced based policy and then completely ignore the evidence people might take your views on corruption less than seriously.
03:25pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1132 posts
Best zinger was Antony Green's one about how Clive's spend worked out to about $1500 per vote gained, "but at least he'll get back a bit over $2 each vote".
All for failing to gain a single seat...
Though yes, it's quite possible despite failing to do anything for UAP he helped the LNP in Queensland against the ALP.
05:25pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3491 posts
Yes well him and Bob Brown and his wee caravan antics.
07:28pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2315 posts
Best zinger was Antony Green's one about how Clive's spend worked out to about $1500 per vote gained, "but at least he'll get back a bit over $2 each vote".
All for failing to gain a single seat...
Though yes, it's quite possible despite failing to do anything for UAP he helped the LNP in Queensland against the ALP.


i think he paid 60mil for a mining license bigger than adani.
08:14pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5968 posts
Yeah well if you hold yourself out as believing in evidenced based policy and then completely ignore the evidence people might take your views on corruption less than seriously.


I dont think there is a party more aligned with evidence based policy than the Greens. That doesn't mean every single one of their policies are based on evidence. You can only vote for a party that is closest aligned to what you believe in, and I dont think anyone agrees with every single policy a party puts forward.
If you went to the lengths to analyse overall policy of the other parties, you'd find far more holes than the Greens.

I dont think their policy on GMOs or Nuclear is outrageous, and certainly doesn't reduce their credibility on how to deal with corruption.
08:55pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3492 posts
Well only 90% of the population disagree with you vash.

Sorry 89.7%

Your assessment of what constitutes "evidenced based" is a matter of supreme indifference.

The point was that GMO and nuclear policy are incredibly powerful tools for dealing with climate change so it is particularly revealing that the greens aren't evidenced based on these issues.

If they can't be taken seriously on the s*** they say matters to them most why should anyone listen to them about anything else.
09:33pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5969 posts
Yeah im sure you know most of the public aren't exactly good at critically analysing political party's policies.
So using that as an argument is abit silly.

And you probably already know that GMOs and Nuclear aren't the only way to tackle climate change, and perhaps not the most cost effective way to go about it. So by not utilising these policies, does not reduce their credibility on tackling climate change either.
09:50pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3493 posts
The thing is vash it's actually not clear there is an alternative to nuclear base power.

I'm sure you'll be able to provide some credible evidence on the relative cost of power mixes.

See here is where you've stitched yourself up.

If you can't critically analyse the green's policies, who the f*** are you to judge the general public's assessment of the major party's policies?

We already all know the answer to that by the by.
10:33pm 19/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5970 posts
Iceland would like a word.
There other options for base load without Nuclear. Geo thermal & Hydro electric are great options for Australia.
Or we could just get more batteries & panels in people's homes.

I hope i dont need to link you showing how insanely expensive it is to build Nuclear plants. And then theres the problem of severe environmental catastrophe that increases in probability if most of the world started building alot more of them.
re: Chernobyl & F**ushima

the cost per kilowatt (KW) for utility-scale solar is less than $1,000, while the comparable cost per KW for nuclear power is between $6,500 and $12,250


Guess that makes The Greens some great economic managers by choosing the most cost effective way to beat climate change.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2921
Stick it into sci hub for the detailed study.
This study details a plan for the U.S which utilises only 100GW of Nuclear power, out of a total of 1,529 GW installed capacity. And this is only because they are already built.
And it will not increase energy prices for the consumer.

Do you think most of the Australian public (or even you) would disconnect from their biases & beliefs to form a political opinion from reading into the science of policies of each party before they vote?
I would say a solid No. Cognitive dissonance is a weird thing, and its probably one of many reasons why we're at the point we are with the Trump phenomenon and an extremely undeserving party being re elected here.
10:56pm 19/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3494 posts
Well I knew it would be a vash special. But wow.

Yes vash Iceland

We should model our electricity mix on the geothermal used by a country with the population of Newcastle and sits on top of a volcano.

Let's not talk about the environmental record of hydro power in Australia. We pay the snowny scheme not to generate at the moment it's so bad.

And then you write this unironically.
Do you think most of the Australian public (or even you) would disconnect from their biases & beliefs to form a political opinion from reading into the science of policies of each party before they vote?


Here's a question vash. On what basis do you think you're any different to most people?

And FYI when you talk about Chernobyl as a live possibility in modern reactor technology you lose.
06:42am 20/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5971 posts
Ah, you conveniently ignored the study. And F**ushima being pretty recent. And the risk increasing if we built more Nuclear plants to offset Coal.

Once you manage to come up with a convincing argument in favor of another party maybe my beliefs could be swayed. I wont be holding my breath.

Also you never mention who you vote for. Im curious.
06:50am 20/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3495 posts
The abstract of the study which doesn't make the claim you say it does. Given that it's behind a paywall so you didn't read it I don't see why I should. It's linked to in the first article you googled isn't it vash.

Remind everyone again why F**ushima happened and what the death toll was?

It's related to your Iceland point.

And I'm not trying to sway you Vash. I'm demonstrating that you're guilty of the exact behaviour you say "most Australians" engage in.

Notice how suddenly you're not talking about copying Iceland.

I don't have the energy to rebut every half baked claim you make. It's enough that you think power for half of Ipswich is a killer point.
07:51am 20/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5972 posts

http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2921

here i put it into sci hub for you.

So you're trying to downplay the severity of Nuclear plant catastrophe. And dismiss the increasing risk if we build more plants. and the cost of it. I think your Nuclear argument has been just about slam dunked.

The population of Iceland is irrelevant. Australia contains the same natural resources available to *easily* supply renewable energy without nuclear. And then theres much of Europe rapidly moving towards 100% renewable.
The evidence and modelling is all there in the open. For countries as large as the United States.

But Iceland is small. Ya got me. Phew. well done.

And if you would like to point out how, exactly, i am guilty of the same behaviour? You have yet to make a reasonable point that the Greens are not credible for tackling corruption or climate change.
08:14am 20/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3496 posts
So you're trying to downplay the severity of Nuclear plant catastrophe. And dismiss the increasing risk if we build more plants. and the cost of it. I think your Nuclear argument has been just about slam dunked.


I'm not downplaying anything. you can't or won't state the actual severity of the incident or its causes.

But Iceland is small. Ya got me. Phew. well done.


The population of Iceland is not irrelevant. The exact problem to solve with renewables is scale.

And Iceland was your choice as a country to model not mine. This petulant backpedaling feeds nicely into the point below.

And if you would like to point out how, exactly, i am guilty of the same behaviour?


You have yet to post anything critical of the greens policies on GMOs or nuclear. That is to say you've entirely failed to engage with them critically. Because you are too busy defending them from criticism.
When you, not me, give a list of reasons to doubt green policy then and only then will you have done what most Australians fail to do according to you.

Now as for anti corruption beyond saying there should be a federal anti corruption body what is the policy exactly? From what I've read it is characterised by the same lack of detail and I'll thought out broadbrush statements as their nuclear and GMO policies.

Edit. Oh and a postscript from article you linked to. My emphasis
Starting from nuclear,
hydroelectric (no pumped hydroelectric is considered), wind, and
solar PV plants that existed in 2012, our optimization model
designs a new cost-optimal electrical power system for the entire
contiguous US. The solution comprises wind, solar PV, natural
gas, nuclear and hydroelectric generators
09:28am 20/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5973 posts
I provided more examples than Iceland in my initial post. You just decided to stick to that example since its easy for you.
And still ignoring the U.S study.

I have already stated i do not agree with their GMO policy. You have the memory of a fish.
And we just addressed Nuclear. Im not against Nuclear generally, as ive stated before, and i would prefer alternatives that don't carry the risk & costs tied to it. The evidence is there that we don't need it.
Now if we did need Nuclear to reach 100% renewables, that would make me question the Greens credibility. and i would probably look elsewhere. But that isn't the case.

Now as for anti corruption beyond saying there should be a federal anti corruption body what is the policy exactly? From what I've read it is characterised by the same lack of detail and I'll thought out broadbrush statements as their nuclear and GMO policies.


The Greens were the first to propose a federal ICAC. A Labor ICAC would likely lack any teeth. But better than nothing. The LNP wants an ICAC hidden from the public eye (speaks volumes) As for the inner details of how it would work, well that probably won't come about until the policy is put to parliment.

Edit:
And you slotted in a quote proving you didnt read the study. at all.
Only 100GW of nuclear is being utilised in that study (again as i said before) and only because there are existing plants. They aren't building more. Groan.
09:54am 20/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3497 posts
The cost optimal approach incorporates nuclear vash.

Your argument was that nuclear is too expensive. You then link to a study saying the cheapest energy mix includes nuclear. This really isn't very difficult.

Now as for GMO when did you say you reject their policy? You said this
I dont think their policy on GMOs or Nuclear is outrageous,


And this
but the Greens are loony cos of GMOs and Nuclear or something.


So that last sentence should be read as vash completely disagrees with Greens GMO policy should it?

And when you say the policy isn't outrageous, you do know it's a total ban on the use of GMOs right?
10:44am 20/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5974 posts
Yeah. The cost of Nuclear being zero in that study, because, you know, they aren't building more.

I said it pages ago. The last time we spoke on this topic, basically on repeat.
A ban on GMOs isn't a deal breaker for me. Their other policies target the critical issues that others don't. That'll do pig.
10:52am 20/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3498 posts
Yeah. The cost of Nuclear being zero in that study, because, you know, they aren't building more.


Sigh the study suggests renewables can be expanded without increasing the cost of electricity from 11 US cents per kWh. It models nuclear generation at 6 US cents per kWH.

so nuclear energy is well below the target cost. By contrast Australia doesn't have any nuclear. So it's not clear we can go decommissioning coal at the same rate, because we don't have cheap low emissions base load generation to cover the short fall. Decommissioning coal here will almost certainly result in having to add new natural gas. Natural gas the US doesn't have to add because it's got nuclear.

Now the simple fact is that nuclear energy has a place in their model and it's cheaper than the target price per kWh. You tried argue that nuclear isn't cost effective and so the greens total ban on it is somehow justified.

Now again as with GMO if your main schtick is we have to fight climate change then it is a serious problem that with a serious lack of evidence you'd cut off a way to make deep cuts into CO2 emissions. It's a particularly strange place in policy to be ideological when you want to claim your evidenced based credentials.
01:08pm 20/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1154 posts
It appears to simply be Vash that the heart and sole of the Greens is the anti-nuclear brigade, and if Greens supported nuclear they would annoy some of their core voters who help them push their marxist BS.


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TROG PC's things that conflict with him: "You cannot post yet! - Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 13094 seconds"
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07:58pm 20/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5975 posts
^and that, is pure ignorance on display. If you're still wondering why you're post limited, have another read of what you just posted.
08:28pm 20/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3499 posts
Well we can't all link to articles that undermine our own point.
09:20pm 20/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2316 posts
I love it how Labor cuts a baby bonus and everyone doesn't mind, but f*** with a boomer give me and lose the election.
12:16am 21/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
989 posts
What I can't believe is why NBN f***up wasn't even brought up once. You god damn bastards who voted liberals f***ed up the backbone of our communications/data/science/EVERYTHING networks.
09:22am 21/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5978 posts
What I can't believe is why NBN f***up wasn't even brought up once. You god damn bastards who voted liberals f***ed up the backbone of our communications/data/science/EVERYTHING networks.


Not just that, but our economic performance as well, and taxation.
If you do the research, you'll find Labor's economic performance record over the last 40 years outpaces the LNP's.
And same with taxation, the LNP taxes overall, more so.

But lets just focus on the budget management, which is what every conservative will argue about when you talk about economic performance of the two parties.

It's very difficult to get this to people without cognitive dissonance kicking in.

Look at PP's arguing style as a good example.
04:27pm 21/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3500 posts
Bless. The guy linking to an article in which nuclear energy is cheap to show nuclear energy is expensive says everyone else has 'cognative dissonance'.

Hey vash in that study does new natural gas have to added by 2030?
07:03pm 21/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5980 posts
Hehe ^ perfect example yet again
You sure got me. Saying the cost is zero for Nuclear in the study, from using existing nuclear plants, is me now claiming Nuclear is cheaper. How can anyone be this stupid?
07:20pm 21/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1155 posts

https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/federal/2019/results/party-totals

https://i.imgur.com/Ks2RD2r.gif
Melbourne suburbs will start to vote the same way as Queensland, a key Labor operative has warned, spelling long-term danger for the party in its strongest state.
https://www.theage.com.au/federal-election-2019/melbourne-suburbs-turning-into-queensland-labor-warned-20190521-p51pjo.html

ABC destined for more cuts, unfortunately it won't be their biased web news service.

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TROG PC's things that conflict with him: "You cannot post yet! - Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 13094 seconds"
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08:18pm 21/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3501 posts
Yes vash. The study doesn't model nuclear energy at zero though does it? It models it a 6 US cents per kWh.

I love that the model also barely reduces natural gas and assumes building new natural gas.
08:44pm 21/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5981 posts
Yes vash. The study doesn't model nuclear energy at zero though does it? It models it a 6 US cents per kWh.


Look i know you're trying to clutch at something here, but you're completely missing the whole point. The study is only using Nuclear because they are already in operation, so that makes them very cost effective to use as a small portion of the model.
The cost per kWh is low because of this reason. So yes, the statement of zero is incorrect.

If Nuclear was never in the U.S, the study would use an alternative source rather than propose building one. But that's pure speculation.
I only say this based on what other countries in Europe are doing for their 100% renewable targets, as well as Australia's modelling.

The modelling shows Nuclear is just not cost effective as an option to build in places that don't already have them. And we don't need it for Australia.
08:59pm 21/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3502 posts
That model does not have much to say on the cost effectiveness of building nuclear in the US and nothing to say for Australia.

I preface this by saying linking to an article on earth911.com titled solar vs nuclear stinks of vash googles solar vs nuclear and links to the first article which kind of reads like it supports your point. While unironically talking about cognitive dissonance and absent critical thinking skills in people who don’t vote for the greens.

I don’t bother to read your ‘research’ closely anymore because it invariably doesn’t make the point you think it does.

The study models a scenario in which it can expand solar and wind without increasing the lcoe cost per kWh from all sources above 11 cents or so. A significant portion of that mix is purchased at 6c per kWh ie nuclear.

The model assumes that natural gas is required to supplement wind and solar. Therefore it is not clear if nuclear didn’t exist the expansion could take place with existing technology prior to 2030 without any additional cost because additional natural gas would need to be added. It makes almost no reduction to natural gas overall and requires new natural gas capacity to be built.

I notice you also don’t mention that the model assumes changing the transmission grid of the entire continental US by 2030 (ie in 10.5 years). Whether that can be called an assumption as opposed to a fantasy remains to be seen.

So actually the start up costs of nuclear have very little bearing on what they were modeling. The low cost of current generation capacity does impact their ability to expand at no additional cost.

That doesn’t even begin to address the reasons why nuclear initial investment is so expensive. There is a huge literature on this issue. I’m confident you’ve read none of it.

That model does not show nuclear is not cost effective and indeed relies on it being low cost. Even if it did, it is one model. My cursory googling found that lcoe models of nuclear vary wildly. When you’ve gone and found one that doesn’t support your point, then you’ve done critical thinking.
10:44pm 21/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
694 posts
There are many ways you are incompetent, vash, but here's one off the top of my head:

Energy Source Mortality Rates; Deaths/yr/TWh



Coal – world average, 161

Coal – China, 278

Coal – USA, 15

Oil – 36

Natural Gas – 4

Biofuel/Biomass – 12

Peat – 12

Solar/rooftop – 0.44-0.83

Wind – 0.15

Hydro – world, 0.10

Hydro – world*, 1.4

Nuclear – 0.04

You're probably an anti-gun SJW too so this kind of argument should be right up your alley.
12:16pm 23/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41329 posts
isnt every sane human being anti gun?
03:02pm 23/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1156 posts

^and that, is pure ignorance on display. If you're still wondering why you're post limited, have another read of what you just posted.


Yes, i see your point. I'm sober now.

Some noise at the neighbour's
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-23/more-than-250-arrested-indonesia-post-election-riots-second-day/11140758

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11140772-3x2-940x627.jpg



ABC reports in shifts in perception and omits that One Nation's increase in support was near double the increase in support the Greens achieved. They also point out that shift in environmental support went from 9% to "environment and the economy were pretty much neck and neck as the top issue". The article to write is "Clearly people care much more about the environment but are still not very supportive of the Greens". There is a story to be written around why this might be. I doubt we will see the article on ABC web news or The Guardian.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-24/federal-election-2019-vote-compass-australia-as-100-people/11114554
08:39pm 23/05/19 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1566 posts
07:55pm 24/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
695 posts
isnt every sane human being anti gun?


I can tell you've never set foot on a livestock farm. Or any farm actually
03:00pm 25/05/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24311 posts
spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.
03:07pm 25/05/19 Permalink
taggs
6605 posts
Double post
03:49pm 25/05/19 Permalink
taggs
6606 posts
spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.


I'm a 2A fan and have a decent amount of experience using them in a primary producer context (and heaps more in a recreational context) but your post feels a bit iffy tbh infi. I've killed, cleaned and eaten a buncha animals (and killed a multiple more pests) but never got a thrill when they died. YMMV
03:52pm 25/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2317 posts
Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.
05:12pm 25/05/19 Permalink
taggs
6607 posts
Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.


How the world looks from the inner west of Sydney isn't necessarily how the world looks from rural Utah for example but feel free to look down your nose at your fellow man.

I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.

How dumb is everyone who doesn't think like me amirite.
05:30pm 25/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2318 posts


How the world looks from the inner west of Sydney isn't necessarily how the world looks from rural Utah for example but feel free to look down your nose at your fellow man.

I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.

How dumb is everyone who doesn't think like me amirite.

I grew up in country QLD, but please feel free to inform me about more things.

^Not that that gives me qualification but, please present a f*****g argument? Why do people need the guns I said that no one needs?
07:08pm 25/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3503 posts
Is there some reason he should give an argument? You didn't and you're not qualified and just said nobody needs something.

That's not an argument. It's your opinion.
08:55am 26/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41331 posts
spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.


i dont like hurting animals, unless they are my children.

(eating delicious meats is fine though)
09:25am 26/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3504 posts
What about delicious roo meat with its head blown clean off?
10:17am 26/05/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41332 posts
i love brotein as much as the next bro, so roo meat is fine. as long as the roo didnt feel anything while its head was falling off.

im not sure that causing a roos head to fall off would give me an erection like it does infi though.

i prefer not to think about it.
10:44am 26/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3505 posts
All I'm saying is after infi has had a chance to calm down and you've stopped beating your kids you could have a bbq.
01:51pm 26/05/19 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12395 posts
I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.
He's probably not in the business of shooting up kindergartens, should be able to give him a pass on that.
04:02pm 26/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
992 posts

I grew up in country QLD, but please feel free to inform me about more things.

^Not that that gives me qualification but, please present a f*****g argument? Why do people need the guns I said that no one needs?
country QLD

Mate, Rockhampton is not country QLD you bogan
08:47am 27/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
696 posts
Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.


A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit. Don't let that stop you flapping your pre-programmed jaw about something you know nothing about.
12:14pm 27/05/19 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2319 posts
Mate, Rockhampton is not country QLD you bogan


I was closer to gladstone, but yeah keep trying.


A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit. Don't let that stop you flapping your pre-programmed jaw about something you know nothing about.


I hope you voted for the animal justice party, because you clearly care about their well being and maybe you are a bad shot?
07:54pm 28/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5982 posts
09:25pm 28/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26545 posts
A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit
What's the time difference between cycling the action, lining up and shooting again versus just shooting again? A second and a half maybe? Seems like a weak justification for allowing weapons that are also much more effective at shooting humans in a crowded environment to me. Then again, all your arguments are weak. Also if you want to be the big working class man gun shooting guy maybe learn how to shoot.
10:03pm 28/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3506 posts
Then again, all your arguments are weak.


Coming from a guy who thinks releasing a report is a cover-up
08:11am 29/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
697 posts
I hope you voted for the animal justice party, because you clearly care about their well being and maybe you are a bad shot?


When you have sometimes dozens of shots a night often on moving and distant targets a miss-hit is inevitable. Any hunter that says every shot will be an instant kill is completely full of s***.

What's the time difference between cycling the action, lining up and shooting again versus just shooting again


I feel like responding to fpot now is more out of pity for his mental deficiencies but regardless. The time is more than enough to lose an animal in scrub. Not only that you need to move your head away from your scope, bolt, then find the eye relief again which means you're not even looking at your target for 1-2 seconds. I can only suggest you, like redhat, speak from places other than out your a******.

Other than that, the moment I take shooting advice from nobodies is the moment I stop shooting.
08:42am 29/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26546 posts
It's so adorable how these cute little alt-right basement dwellers always pretend to be something they aren't. Lawyers, doting fathers and now hunters it seems.
02:00pm 29/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3507 posts
It really is just terminal intellectual insecurity which drives you isn't it fpot.

That was tragic.
02:11pm 29/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5983 posts
Remind me again why anyone needs a fully automatic rifle? Dazed makes an argument for semis but unfortunately they are easily modified to fully auto, and not to mention a semi was used in Port Arthur.
03:49pm 29/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1157 posts
fpot thinks in simple terms like left and right.

I'm not keen on civilians in cities having any firearms unless they really need one or they practice a s***load and compete or something.
08:22pm 29/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
698 posts
It's so adorable how these cute little alt-right basement dwellers always pretend to be something they aren't. Lawyers, doting fathers and now hunters it seems.


So yeah yet again fpot sets the bar real low and still fails to clear it.

Remind me again why anyone needs a fully automatic rifle?


We can have the gun argument forever. Fundamentally it boils down to the left prioritising (maybe even singularly concerned about) the rights of a society, supposedly derived from a democratic vote, and the right prioritising the rights of the individual. While you have two world-views every argument from the opposing side will be dismissed simply because it isn't ranked high enough on the belief system.
08:34am 30/05/19 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
995 posts
Hey Infi what do you think of the current liberal leadership? Dutton is a corrupt bastard, you must have some reservations on him being reelected in such a dodgy way.
10:33am 30/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5984 posts
We can have the gun argument forever. Fundamentally it boils down to the left prioritising (maybe even singularly concerned about) the rights of a society, supposedly derived from a democratic vote, and the right prioritising the rights of the individual. While you have two world-views every argument from the opposing side will be dismissed simply because it isn't ranked high enough on the belief system.


You dodged that question nicely.
Is it hurting individual freedom if they can't own a fully armed abrams tank? There are limits in what the individual should be allowed access to, for the safety of the public.
Semi & Fully automatic rifles fall into that category, and barring mentally ill people from owning them is not enough.
Extremism (which is growing from the right side of politics) and school shootings will continue to happen until the U.S wakes the f*** up and stop being pussies in dealing with gun nuts.

The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.
12:57pm 30/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3508 posts
The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.


War in Afghanistan entering its 19th year.
02:27pm 30/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26547 posts
So in lieu of posting Mueller's press conference which affirms that a literal criminal is currently president of the united states and having the same dolts copy paste the lies fox news use to help cover it up I'll instead ask this -

Who has actually read the report? I've read most of it. To me it was pretty much sex in text. All those funny niggling feelings I had about certain events and behaviours pretty much explained.

For those who have actually had a go at reading it can you pretty please tell me if this summary of thoughts is completely off.

- Russia committed a cyber attack on the 2016 US Presidential Election
- the trump team were aware of the attack and did nothing to stop it
- the trump team assisted the attack by communicating, working with and clearing the path for the Russians
- none of which constitutes a criminal conspiracy
- despite this the trump team recognised how politically damaging it would be to be seen assisting a foreign superpower in attacking the US and covered up and lied about the ways in which they helped
- in the act of covering that up they committed the crime of obstruction of justice

My view on Mueller's intentions for how the report was to be received

- it is a policy of the DoJ that a sitting president cannot be indicted
- Volume 1 of the report was to provide the ammunition for impeachment.
- once trump is impeached, charges for obstruction of justice can be laid, which is Volume 2.

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job. What you saw from Mueller today was what Barr should have said, but didn't, because Barr's job is to protect the president. How he has been cajoled into doing that is something that will only be known in the future.

Please try to ignore the flailing numpties who will claim everything I said is 'false' and accuse me of not reading the report. They know I've read it, they're hoping you haven't.
04:27pm 30/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3509 posts
When he isn't impeached the tears of fpot are going to be glorious.

Another prediction. Trump will never be convicted of obstruction of justice.

Fpot doesn't know how to read a legal document.

The report doesn't say the campaign didn't conspire. It say the campaign didn't co-ordinate. That wording is important, because it covers behaviour that doesn't rise to criminality.

It also renders almost every takeaway of fpots wrong.
05:33pm 30/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5985 posts
PP is right for once that he wont be convicted. Because former Presidents don't goto jail in the United States.
There's definitely enough evidence though that he should be impeached. If he doesn't, it's a failure on all levels of Government, and the fault mostly falls on his supporters eating up all kinds of bulls*** from Fox News, causing Republican politicians to basically do nothing about it. They have literally convinced his base that there's a deep state conspiracy to bring down Trump.
Clearly, Trump did something that he feared would be discovered in the investigation, hence the lengths he went to obstruct it.

Any other sane democracy he'd be gone by now. But this is the U.S we're talking about.
05:50pm 30/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26549 posts
A sane democracy would never elect him. Even if all the Russia stuff was wished away you'd still have one of the most infamous US presidencies in history. Ths period right now will still be discussed in a centuries time. WW2, Cold War, 90s, 9/11, Trump... what's next? Somehow I don't think it will be another 90s.
06:06pm 30/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3510 posts
There it is. The praying for a do over.

Living in the end times hey fpot.
07:53pm 30/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1158 posts
The TDS is the only thing they will be talking about in a hundred years. How pathetic to think you actually live in a remarkable time. The most remarkable thing that has happened in the last 20 years is Bush making up reasons to go to Iraq and America going around waring all over the place.

They voted him in. People are likely glad the Clinton Foundation, and Bernie are not in. Many of the voters were irritated by Obamacare and they wanted change. They got change. The guy is just trying to do what he said he would do, what they voted him in to do, regardless if they are 'good' things to do. The voters who voted him generally want them to stop being world cop. His red face and hair are strange and he says some outrageous stuff, but journalists work very hard at making Trump nothings into somethings. fopt is dreaming. Trump is a non story in comparison to other stuff in a period of centuries.

Is Hillary a reptile? Some say they have been living amongst us for a long time.

https://i.4pcdn.org/tv/1530909622597.png
08:59pm 30/05/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
699 posts
Extremism (which is growing from the right side of politics)


For the love of God stop watching CNN.

school shootings will continue to happen until the U.S wakes the f*** up and stop being pussies in dealing with gun nuts.


Is this the same guy demanding that daddy government come and take the bad boom boom sticks away whilst calling them pussies for not doing so? The left are indistinguishable from runty children. Go and do it yourself vash. Let me know how that goes.

The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.


Maybe have a looksie at your favourite country Venezuela and how they fared after private gun ownership was banned (literally less than a decade ago) and also have a looksie at the weaponry available to the Continental army during the Revolutionary War when the citizens and also British military deserters with their cannons and automatic weapons joined the Continental army.

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job. What you saw from Mueller today was what Barr should have said, but didn't, because Barr's job is to protect the president. How he has been cajoled into doing that is something that will only be known in the future.
Go ahead and ignore what both the special counsel and the AG office say about the garbage you come out with. Your rants are becoming more and more hysterical if that is even possible.

Not only that, your Trump-hater Mueller is the one who can't keep his story straight. He is deliberately using language to get simpletons like you to froth at the mouth about impeachment, which of course you duly oblige.
08:21am 31/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3511 posts
To be fair to Mueller, he said the report is his testimony and despite what fpot has managed to convince himself of, the report expressly deals with the issue of proving obstruction and the difficulty with intent when there is no underlying crime.

Mind you it didn't seem to bother Ken Starr any, the OLC policy. He recommended Bill Clinton be prosecuted.

The evidence also makes very very clear that the Trump campaign didn't co-ordinate with the Russian efforts.

The most "damning" section is Paul manaforts and the report and expressly stated that the contact happened after the Russian operation was public knowledge.

Because fpot and his ilk are so stupid they can't see two steps in front of them.

Congress can issue articles of impeachment. Because high crimes and misdemeanors means basically what ever Congress says it does.

So the democrats could impeach for contact with an ambassador at a speech for example. But watch Republicans do exactly the same thing. Remember when democrats thought it was an awesome idea to get rid of the filibuster for SC nominations? How'd that work out for them? Pretty funny really.

That's why it's always been linked to actual crimes by convention. Breaking that convention especially when the senate won't remove would be electoral death for the Dems and they know it.
08:53am 31/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26551 posts
So do you post those links with a description saying I'm wrong in the blind hope that no one will click and read them? Because they say nothing of the sort.

Is this that tactic dumb dumbs use where they try to get someone to repeat themselves endlessly in an effort to bore them out of the argument? I've seen that one a lot. I guess I'll have to wait till tomorrow for an answer on that one (lol)
06:48pm 31/05/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1159 posts
Is she making this stuff up?

Video: https://youtu.be/AlgZfTSTO6w
09:35pm 31/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3512 posts
Fpot lives on projection.

Notice how he is talking about hoping people won't follow links?

His post in which he makes factual assertions about 400+ page document doesn't even link to the document much less reference specific parts of it.

He thinks he is winning or something. Impeachment isn't going to happen.

The heartbreak when it dawns on him there isn't going to be a do over is going to be delicious.
09:41pm 31/05/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26555 posts
You can't actually be serious posting something like that can you?
09:59pm 31/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5986 posts
Phew dazed that post was a doozy.

https://i.imgur.com/GO7D8WJ.png

Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.
10:37pm 31/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3513 posts
I'm deadly serious fpot

Maybe I misread this

To me it was pretty much sex in text.


But I doubt it.

I don't think you've read it. But even if you have I'm confident you don't understand it.

Just by way of example. If you've read the document you'll be able to to tell me the meaning of the first sentence of page 213 or page 1 of volume 2.



Most importantly you'll be able to read that and be able to tell me William Barr's role was in you being able to read the document at all.

Then you'll be able to tell me whatever the f*** this means

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job.


Seeing as you've launched a coeur di cri for people to read primary documents you won't mind having your knowledge of them tested.

Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.


Now do radical islam.
10:49pm 31/05/19 Permalink
Vash
5987 posts
Ah the ole whataboutsie that has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
If a trump defender sees something they dont like just bring up Venezula, radical Islam or Antifa. It's the easy way out.

Fact is, right-wing terrorism is on the rise since Trump was elected. And his supporters are blind to the crimes he's committed which would land a non president in jail.
So, anyone defending him believe he should be above the law, and seem to enjoy the idea of concentrated power as long as it's on their side of politics.

A good attorney analyses a report leaving his political biases behind. PP isn't one of them.
11:46pm 31/05/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3514 posts
Lot of words there vash. Not much of a response. Wasn't expecting one from the guy who say we don't need nuclear and presents a model that relies on nuclear.
02:47am 01/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
700 posts
Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.


Yeah that's kind of your problem Vash. You think everything is as simple as a pretty diagram that proves nothing because you are also simple.

To prove my point:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/u726mGq4pbAfW1if-5nifaLB-tM=/941x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/3MX4XXW3JBEGVJ3KAPHLAAI2TA.png

Edit:

Source: US Extreme Crime Database and Right Wing Terrorism and Violence in Western Europe dataset.

Because sources matter so much to Vash. The funny thing is the START consortium used the same data except Vash has cherry picked a decade and has also plotted a graph with zero context and zero trends. How embarrassing. Can't wait for him to now finally admit he is actually completely wrong because Vash is a totally reasonable lefty and always does so.

I can post once every 24 hours Vash. You still get wiped and come back for more using the same busted tactics.
10:50am 01/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41336 posts
12 people dead in the US this morning in a shooting.

it would be lolz, if it wasnt so horrible.
11:04am 01/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24312 posts
Japanese mass stabbing leaves 3 dead 19 injured. Qld mother kills herself and 4 children in head on collision murder/suicide. What's your point?
11:43am 01/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41337 posts
frequency?
01:13pm 01/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24313 posts
Then we would be much better off focusing on extremist Islamic terror attacks if that is the measure.
01:27pm 01/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41338 posts
lolz, americans kill way more americans than any other nation (is killing americans).

BUT ITS OUR RIGHT TO HAVE GUNS TO PROTECT US!
01:30pm 01/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5988 posts
Your chart has no source dazed. mine does.

Infi does exactly as predicted and goes straight to Islamic terrorism. Do you want to address the rise of right-wing terrorism that is linked to Trump being elected? And the fact that Nazis love him?

Edit:
Thought not.
But Trump is great and liberal tears are delicious. /s
01:49pm 01/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1160 posts

Do NAZIS really love him? I'm not surprised if they do, but real "love'... Is it just another left wing exaggeration where we smith words to suit the narrative?

Is there are source for that fact?

the fact that Nazis love him


Also, when will The Guardian and ABC web news write more articles about the dangers of the Far Left? They seem to like to write so much about the Far RIght. The boogie man coming to get people. The right wing is scary and evil if you read ABC news and The Guardian. Are these left wing rebel rousers not satisfied with using political correctness to call negatives around social issues "hate speech"? They want to shut down conversation that conflicts with their values (like Trog does with his post limiting), give the left more voice, and tend to promote a justified hate of the right.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

I watched your below video Vash:

"love". I don't think so. Maybe they support some of his more nationalistic principles like closing the border. That's what he basically says.. and he says they won't endorse Trump. I think your seeing more in the video than there actually is. The video is made by people who support your comment and the best they could get from editing was some spooky music and a guy with a MAGA cap on and what I basically mentioned about the border. Surely they could could up with more?
05:24pm 02/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5989 posts


But feel free to say fake news because its Vox.

Btw, left wing terrorism isnt on the rise. But there sure are alot of lefties protesting the views of trump supporters with perhaps some violent punch ups here in there, but i haven't seen a mass shooting by one yet.
05:47pm 02/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3515 posts
It's fake news because it's Vox.

Bernie bro shoots Republican congressional members

You're ability for confirmation bias doesn't mean s*** doesn't happen vash.
07:39am 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5990 posts
Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.
08:54am 03/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
701 posts
Mueller and his team are totally non-biased and totally trustworthy and totally didn't waste taxpayer dollars on a bogus investigation.

Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.


So because the shooter was a poor shot it doesn't count. A bit like how 100million dead by communism doesn't count. Look at yourself real hard in the mirror sometime, Vash.
08:59am 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3516 posts
Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.


Gee I hope your not trying to minimise political violence against elected officials vash.

Kind of makes your hysterical shrieking about right wing terrorism hard to take seriously.

Well harder. It's already difficult.
09:02am 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5991 posts
Even if there were deaths, it still doesn't indicate a trend. There's a clear link that right-wing extremists have been inspired by Trump's presidency.
100 million dead by Communism, there's the strawman. The mirror for you is ugly that's why you pull out these ridiculous arguments.

Not at all PP. You can twist my words however you like. Any mass shooting is a terrible thing. You just need to face the music when it comes to the damage Trump's influence is having.
09:10am 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3517 posts
Yes vash your comment truely conveys the seriousness of a person who volunteered for Bernie Sanders campaign trying to assassinate members of Congress.

While we are talking about things rhetoric inspire.

The simple fact is you've gone and linked to something which you think (but doesn't actually) supports your case. Again.

You don't understand extremism and it's trends anymore than you demonstrably don't understand electricity generation and distribution, refugees or any of the other myriad of issues you've made a fool of yourself over and over again.
10:34am 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5992 posts
Dont worry PP, i dont expect anyone here, especially with an ego like yours to be able to face the reality of the situation when they previously argued in defence of Trump.
11:23am 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3518 posts
I'm not worried vash.

It just entertains me to watch you contort yourself trying to maintain the idea that you have some political insight when you've been slapped up and down the yard on every issue you've ever posted on.

For example, you post to Vox while suggesting fox news watchers are brainwashed.

Vox makes no bones about its political bias it wears it on its sleeve. But you post it as though it's the last word.
12:02pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5993 posts
Try again PP. Vox have a proven high level of factual reporting. Fox news does not.
And Vox is only left biased in the U.S since it has shifted so far to the right. It could be considered centrist here in Australia.

As i predicted, you are again showing you're only capable of trying to discredit the poster & source, rather than address the facts presented. Hopefully one day you can pull yourself out of that safe space of yours.
01:10pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3519 posts
No it doesn't vash. The people who founded vox are very clear on this point.

Ezra Klein a "centrist" is hysterical.

And what ever you did to irony with this should be a crime:

Fox news does not.
As i predicted, you are again showing you're only capable of trying to discredit the poster & source, rather than address the facts presented.


Again that post where you aren't completely internally contradictory with in the space of two sentences is out there vash. I believe in you little guy.
01:46pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5994 posts
Keep trying PP. You can do it.
Just alittle more critical thinking and you might reach a conclusion that Trump is bad and Vox s**** all over fox news on fact based reporting.

Or have another look at the chart i posted with a source and the interviews with nazis. Or the video of richard spencer saluting the victory of Trump being elected.
It's all out there. You can change your ways. There might be hope for you.

Though probably not.
02:43pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3520 posts
Yeah I'm not the one who thinks Richard Spencer is a force in American politics vash.

That does fairly significant violence to this claim:
and Vox s**** all over fox news on fact based reporting.


But let's see if you can mutilate irony's corpse while we are here.

Should Richard Spencer be attacked violently in the street by a mob?
03:06pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5995 posts
I can throw random unrelated questions too.
Should you be ignoring the rise of right wing terrorism and throwing strawmans instead? Almost as if you're an apologist for these terrorists by doing that eh?
and very quick to want to look to Islamic terrorism and an isolated left-wing incident instead.

Still wanna defend Trump after learning the trend of said terrorism? The Mueller report? The cosiness with Nazis?

Still think republicans will put forward a plan for climate change?

Critical issues i'd say.
03:15pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3521 posts
I can throw random unrelated questions too.


Bless, that question is on point vash, I'm not going to waste my time explaining why. I already know your answer and it's why you aren't to be taken seriously on the issue of extremism.

I've no interest in revisiting "punching Nazis". You've already paid forward the idiocy. Suffice it to say if you think brawling in the streets (and you've said you do) is acceptable then you are a fundamentally unserious person on the topic of extremism. Which is in keeping with the rest of your opinions.
04:10pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5996 posts
Hmm PP sees no difference between mass murder and punching Nazis. Your credibility just dropped to new levels.
It's now on display for all that PP supports right-wing terrorism. Trog, is this allowed under the forum rules?
04:19pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3522 posts
Vash is stuck in a bad analogy loop again. I enjoy this part of the game when he sees something I've said and then applies it incorrectly.

In this case
Gee I hope your not trying to minimise political violence against elected officials vash.

Kind of makes your hysterical shrieking about right wing terrorism hard to take seriously.

Well harder. It's already difficult.


See vash I'm saying something quite different. I'm saying that your opinions on the nature and causes of extremism are suspect because you are comfortable with political violence.

Hmm PP sees no difference between mass murder and punching Nazis


Oh good so I was right then. You do think it's ok.

See I got you to do this

But let's see if you can mutilate irony's corpse while we are here.


When I flat out told you that's what I was doing.
05:13pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5997 posts
Political violence, in the form of punching a nazi, is completely fine in my book. Majority of the world agrees im sure.

As im sure you're fine with punching a guy who f***ed your wife. Is it wrong in the eyes of the law? Of course. But people who commit these things, and subscribe to Nazi ideology, punch away.
It also doesn't reach the definition of terrorism. But please, try again. I want to see if you're actually capable of thinking beyond your safe bubble.

You equivalate punching Nazis as being on the level as mass shootings committed by right wing extremists. This is being an apologist for the actions of these terrorists. Mass murder. versus punching a guy. And your true colors are now on display and Trog should ban you for this line of thinking.
05:28pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3523 posts
Vash what you're doing to irony borders on necrophilia now.

The world doesn't agree with you. Its why "but he was a nazi" isn't a defence to assault.

I'm not equating mass shootings with punching people.

I'm saying that a person who simultaneously believes Trump's rhetoric causes right wing terrorism and it's ok to punch people including nazis (and who minimises shooting Congress members) is either extremely stupid or extremely cynical. Hence they are fundamentally unserious on the causes of extremism.
06:15pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5998 posts
Ah ha. My posts on the topic certainly aren't showing how serious i am on the rise of extermism linked to Trump. Are you really that empty?
Yet you have not addressed the issue once. You're outright showing you're an apologist for the rise of right wing terrorism.

You're shaping the narrative to punching nazis, and the isolated incident of shooting congress members. There is no trend of increasing mass shootings with either of these.
You've refused to address it, and choose to instead defend the rise of right-wing extremism by deflecting to isolated incidents that are no where near the level of severity. That is very suprising even from you PP.

Now i know the kind of person you really are.
06:25pm 03/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3524 posts
No vash I'm doing something much more vanilla.

I'm demonstrating specifically your opinion on right wing terrorism is not one to take seriously.

You've been most helpful in this task.
See this is helpful
You're shaping the narrative to punching nazis, and the isolated incident of shooting congress members.


Because if you're suggesting that is a slippery slope fallacy, then a fortiori Trumps rhetoric is a not slippery slope.

It's also enjoyable to watch your performative outrage when you've been spanked yet again.
07:24pm 03/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1161 posts
Vash, it's not so much Trump, it's people annoyed at the others. Obama and some other left politicians around the world annoyed people enough to strengthen opposition. Markel and her band are likely in the poo, just like the left here had refugee boats peaking ~ 2010 and Rud handed out $900 for individuals to waste. People don't like that stuff.
09:06pm 03/06/19 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4421 posts
It's also enjoyable to watch your performative outrage when you've been spanked yet again.


little gems like this make continuing to read this thread slaw kinda worthwhile
01:20am 04/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41341 posts
2010 and Rud handed out $900 for individuals to waste. People don't like that stuff.


this was the highlight of my life. A political masterstroke. (old fashioned baby bonus was second best time evar)
05:57am 04/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
702 posts

how good are guns!?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/chicago-sees-52-shot-10-killed-weekend-despicable-violence-officials-n1013236


Guns are banned in Chicago. How good are gun laws!?

Political violence, in the form of punching a nazi, is completely fine in my book.


What could possibly be wrong with assaulting someone who has been convicted of a crime in the court of Vash's barren wasteland of a cranium and nowhere else? For a political opinion, no less. Vash this is stuff you should have ironed out of both your character and your intellect in high school at the latest.

But I would personally like to see you go up to a skinhead and punch him. Whenever you do decide to grow that spine make sure you film it. MAGA hats don't count, by the way.
08:50am 04/06/19 Permalink
Vash
5999 posts
It sure is a gem when PP convinces himself he's spanked someone. Yeah dazed, there is a clear difference between MAGA hats wearers & people walking around with nazi uniforms & flags.
MAGA hat wearers are just brainwashed & dumb. People who spray swastikas are on another level. There's a reason they're banned from entering the U.S & UK.
10:20am 04/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3525 posts
Yes vash. Nothing says winning like endorsing attacking people in the street while being "deeply" concerned about terrorism.

Crushed it little guy.

Why don't you tell us again how there is no difference between the army massacring protestors and the aggregate of all police shootings.

Because you care so much about political violence.
10:51am 04/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6000 posts
PP is just butt hurt his side of politics is bats*** insane. Keep defending it bud. Tell us more how punching a Nazi is comparable to the mass murder committed by right wing extremism.
11:19am 04/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3526 posts
Oops another bad analogy loop. Computer says no eh vash.

Don't you worry about Nazis let me worry about blank.

Nothing says serious like saying "butt hurt".
11:53am 04/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1162 posts

Adelaide - the city of churches.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11178184-3x2-940x627.jpg

"While he was lying semiconscious and helpless on the pavement, all three of you then proceeded to kick and stomp on his head.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-04/cctv-shows-police-officer-being-attacked/11175954


09:51pm 04/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26558 posts
So nothing but complete garbage tier willing to disagree with the Mueller Report assessment that I made then? Interesting.

Guns are banned in Chicago. How good are gun laws!?
Only the dumbest of the dumb MAGA chuddery would point towards a big pile of gun deaths and use it as an example supporting the 2A. Ladies and gents I give you dazed!
10:05pm 04/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3527 posts
Haha yes fpot. Take nobody agreeing with you as evidence you're right. Only 60% of Americans don't want impeachment proceedings.

They all must be fox news viewers.

Your do over isn't going to happen.
06:00am 05/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
703 posts

Adelaide - the city of churches.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11178184-3x2-940x627.jpg

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-04/cctv-shows-police-officer-being-attacked/11175954




Diversity is a strength, didn't you know?

Only the dumbest of the dumb MAGA chuddery would point towards a big pile of gun deaths and use it as an example supporting the 2A. Ladies and gents I give you dazed!


Gun laws work in Chicago huh fpot. A bit like how obstruction of justice laws work against people who haven't obstructed justice. We've already established you're less than useless when it comes to basic gun knowledge as well. You're smashing it.
09:31am 05/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6001 posts
Hey dazed, there was a shooting in Darwin today. Do you want to point out that our gun laws are useless too?

Heh PP almost became self aware with the fox news mention. Almost.
02:52pm 05/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3528 posts
Yeah the guy who thinks anyone who doesn't vote for a party that's never polled above 10% doesn't understand their own interests has an opinion on "self awareness".

This week on vash says the darnedest things.
03:07pm 05/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26559 posts
A white person did it so he won't be mentioning that one. Blacks beating up cops (instead of being murdered by them) though? Boom, put that in your multicultural pipe and smoke it libtards.

One of life's great unanswered questions to me will always be whether these people actually believe the lies, or whether they're willing to let them slide because it suits some sort of greater purpose to do so. If they somehow mustered the courage to be honest with themselves and others for one nanosecond I may get an answer. Too bad they're all snivelly little cowards :(
12:41am 06/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3529 posts
Oh look at fpot go. Like vash he's very certian of things he has demonstrated he knows nothing about.

That's when the vitriol starts. And it's funny to hear talk of cowardice from someone who only ever piles on second.

Notice how he suddenly has alot to say *right after* spook did.

Truely award winning bravery there. VC winners are no doubt humble in his presence.

Edit oh I see what happened.

Let's see how close this is the mark.

Fpot gets drunk watching state of origin, blues lose, he starts a thread on state of origin, nobody posts, he feels sad so he embarrasses himself here instead.

That's exactly what happened. Fpot you really should see someone.
06:28am 06/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6002 posts
Heh you sure triggered PP with that one Fpot.
You're spot on though.
07:34am 06/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3530 posts
Haha oh Vash.

Hey why don't you two go looking for uniformed Nazis to punch.

Make sure you don't get confused with WW2 museum workers though.

people walking around with nazi uniforms & flags.
08:05am 06/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
704 posts
A white person did it so he won't be mentioning that one. Blacks beating up cops (instead of being murdered by them) though? Boom, put that in your multicultural pipe and smoke it libtards.

One of life's great unanswered questions to me will always be whether these people actually believe the lies, or whether they're willing to let them slide because it suits some sort of greater purpose to do so. If they somehow mustered the courage to be honest with themselves and others for one nanosecond I may get an answer. Too bad they're all snivelly little cowards :(


What do you want me to say about it fpot? That gun laws yet again failed to prevent a mass shooting? That Sudanese immigrants commit crimes at 10-15 times the rate of Australians? Cops be bad though apparently.

You see when you are an acolyte of the regressive left and all their cultist views you kind of get eviscerated because you are relying on how good you feel when you and everyone around you sniffs each others farts instead of doing basic research.
10:33am 06/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1163 posts

This week's raids reveal just how common it is for public interest journalism to rely on secret material and Government sources.


If it's breaking the law it's illegal and makes me question their integrity.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-05/why-raids-on-australian-media-present-clear-threat-to-democracy/11183396

Why don't they do some articles on left wing extremism in education institutions? Maybe an interview with Vash on how one becomes a raving right-wing-hater.
05:53pm 06/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24315 posts
A sawn-off pump-action shotgun is illegal. Didn't stop the shootings. Maybe we need more gun laws.
10:42pm 06/06/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39790 posts
I have wondered what is up with all the new construction and all the empty shops at the bottom of them - including in other commercial areas like Park Rd where by all rights there should be a thriving ecosystem of cafes and restaurants and shops. In the last 18 months something like 4 places have closed within 100m of Milton station right near all those giant new apartment blocks.

I've been scratching my head since I moved back wondering what is up with it, like how can it be cheaper for these places to remain empty? Why aren't market effects just pushing their prices down or into more favourable leases so more restauranteurs are willing to have a crack?

ABC finally answered this question for me today:
Karl Fitzgerald, project director at thinktank Prosper Australia, said empty shops are not going to fill up soon, because banks put developers in a "straightjacket" that prevents them lowering rents to attract a tenant.

Retail valuations are often based on the last rent received, so a shop sitting empty is more 'valuable' than one that cuts its rent to attract a tenant.

Any rent reduction — even if it lures a tenant — could trigger increased loan repayments, because it changes the loan-to-value ratio (known as LVR) of the property.
So it /is/ actually cheaper to leave these things empty. I assume for large developers they can also write these off on their tax?

It's really depressing, having come from London (where basically no real estate anywhere useful seems to sit empty for very long because it's too damn valuable) and Columbus (where it is really cheap to start business, especially restaurants, so every remotely interesting area was a constant revolving door of places to dine) it just seems like a blight on our local social fabric that this is the outcome of whatever weird banking/developer agreements that are happening. Instead of making cool vibrant districts with interesting shops and places to eat, we end up with these dead zones, while some developer just sits there because it's slightly easier for them to manage their cash flow, playing the waiting game until Subway or some other franchise gets the cash together.
11:15pm 06/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1675 posts
Guns are banned in Chicago. How good are gun laws!?


Gun laws are irrelevant when it is a city by city basis. It is the equivalent of banning the sale of cigarettes in Brisbane - everyone would just drive to Ipswich to buy them, and at the same time probably give credence to a black market within Brisbane itself for convenience. However, in no way does not mean that banning cigarettes is a bad approach in general. Gun laws work really f'n well in Australia because it is an island.

As someone living in the US (but grew up in rural QLD with guns), I'll give you the biggest reason gun laws are so f*****g good:

Police in Australia do not have to assume that you have a gun on you.



You have no idea how much this changes the relationship between the community and law enforcement. The amount of s*** that happens, and nobody calls the police, because of the possibility that it becomes worse. And it is not the cops fault, they have to protect themselves. It makes the community as a whole way less safe.

I will give you an example of a situation that happened 2 blocks down from me last year, in a neighborhood quite similar to Sumner Park in Brisbane.
1. Land lord goes to evict tenant for not having paid rent
2. The household has 25+ guns registered to it, so police have to intervene
3. Police leave, bring back SWOT, roads closed and guns drawn
4. Tennant burns down house and kills himself

Because the bloke couldn't f*****g pay rent.

So before you whine about your lack of rights, please understand all the implicit everyday rights that you would lose by having your "protection".

last edited by simul at 00:44:49 07/Jun/19

last edited by simul at 00:45:55 07/Jun/19
12:42am 07/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3531 posts
Simul.

Speaking as someone who likes Australia's gun laws and has no interest in changing them, I don't think you are really appreciating the argument being put forward in the Chicago scenario.

Also if your response to eviction is to burn the house down and shoot yourself guns might not be to only important factor in that equation.
07:57am 07/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24316 posts
Retail valuations are often based on the last rent received, so a shop sitting empty is more 'valuable' than one that cuts its rent to attract a tenant.

Any rent reduction — even if it lures a tenant — could trigger increased loan repayments, because it changes the loan-to-value ratio (known as LVR) of the property.


that is just plain wrong.

valuation methodology uses recent market data to estimate current fair market rent. The Landlord's asking price is not even relevant. If the latest lease on the subject property was discounted the valuer would ignore this if other similar tenancies are achieving higher rents per metre.

I agree there may be an element of the developer holding out, but at some point they will need to let the space as vacant commercial tenancies are very unattractive from a residential sales point of view. occupiers want to know what services they will have at their fingerrtips.

My opinion on why ground floor retail spaces are going vacant or failing: potential tenants cannot run a profitable business due to the input costs, especially labor, utilities and compliance costs. Starting a labour based business like a cafe or restaurant these days is extremely expensive and complex. Plus the hours are demanding for an uncertain return on money and time invested. Selling enough coffees just to make rent is a difficult exercise. Read the Courier Mail every day and fine dining restuarants are dropping like flies.
08:55am 07/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
705 posts
Gun laws are irrelevant when it is a city by city basis. It is the equivalent of banning the sale of cigarettes in Brisbane - everyone would just drive to Ipswich to buy them, and at the same time probably give credence to a black market within Brisbane itself for convenience. However, in no way does not mean that banning cigarettes is a bad approach in general. Gun laws work really f'n well in Australia because it is an island.


Australia's gun laws do not work well. Western Sydney's gang problem and the number of mass shootings in the last decade alone are testament to this.

Chicago guns come from Indiana, but then you would have to explain why lax Indiana gun laws are anti-correlated with wild gun violence and strict gun laws in Chicago are anti-correlated with the lack of gun violence. ie why is Ipswich not smoking even though they have ample access to cigs and why is Brisbane smoking their lungs out with no legal access. This relationship happens all over the US, by the way.

I will give you an example of a situation that happened 2 blocks down from me last year, in a neighborhood quite similar to Sumner Park in Brisbane.
1. Land lord goes to evict tenant for not having paid rent
2. The household has 25+ guns registered to it, so police have to intervene
3. Police leave, bring back SWOT, roads closed and guns drawn
4. Tennant burns down house and kills himself

Because the bloke couldn't f*****g pay rent.


A man who kills himself and burns a house to the ground is going to do so whether he has 25 guns or not.
10:24am 07/06/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39791 posts
valuation methodology uses recent market data to estimate current fair market rent. The Landlord's asking price is not even relevant. If the latest lease on the subject property was discounted the valuer would ignore this if other similar tenancies are achieving higher rents per metre.
I'm sure this is a part of it but it's dead easy for me to believe that one of the tools in the valuator's toolbox is looking at the previous leases and that of the buildings in the area (especially if it's like the place right below the Milton train station, which is a biggish nice area below a huge apartment block, which (IIRC) only two of five spots filled (it was originally four filled but two have vacated in the last 6-8 months).

I personally think most "valuation" is bulls*** handwaving that has too many special interests involved; if they left it to "the market" these places would be filled much quicker (like what usually seems to happen with residential units) as they'd simply be dropping the price until someone was in there.
My opinion on why ground floor retail spaces are going vacant or failing: potential tenants cannot run a profitable business due to the input costs, especially labor, utilities and compliance costs. Starting a labour based business like a cafe or restaurant these days is extremely expensive and complex. Plus the hours are demanding for an uncertain return on money and time invested. Selling enough coffees just to make rent is a difficult exercise.
Labour costs are a huge factor here (I don't think the others even really count when compared to staffing costs). Didn't we just bump the minimum wage as well? But again if the labour costs are so high that people find it too hard to start a restaurant because it's too goddamn expensive, this should reduce the demand on commercial leases and these prices should drop. But that isn't happening because of this mystical valuation bulls*** - although I suspect it's not that it's not happening, it's just that the process has been slowed massively.
Read the Courier Mail every day and fine dining restuarants are dropping like flies
S*** you just need to walk around any random area and see the giant holes. It's been so glaringly obvious to me since I moved back I find it just weird that people are so passe about it. Literally just yesterday I was walking to Toowong post office and I walked up the street past the RE - a few months ago I was happy to see a new bubble tea place there (not that I drink it but just because yay, finally someone's moved in) - I walked past yesterday at lunchtime and it was closed and looked empty, like it was out of business (although I couldn't see a sign or anything, maybe it's just randomly closed Thursday?) - but on either side of that there are just empty spaces.
10:25am 07/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24317 posts
I personally think most "valuation" is bulls*** handwaving that has too many special interests involved;


don't get me started on valuations, they are the ultimate witchdoctor voodoo bulls***. i got shafted on a valuation arbitration which me and my agents thought was worth 30% more than what the arbitrators come in at. valuers serve banks. when lkending is loose valuation capitalisation rates go up and when lending is tight they go down just how the banks like it.

in any case, a change in the value of ground floor commercial real estate in a multi-level development is not going to be significant enough to break an LVR covenant, in every situation the developer isbetter off letting it\ and generating some income.

Didn't we just bump the minimum wage as well?


3% far above CPI (1.3%) and real wages growth ( 2.4%). Totally disconnected from reality.

Didn't we just bump the minimum wage as well? But again if the labour costs are so high that people find it too hard to start a restaurant because it's too goddamn expensive, this should reduce the demand on commercial leases and these prices should drop. But that isn't happening because of this mystical valuation bulls*** - although I suspect it's not that it's not happening, it's just that the process has been slowed massively.


Just like the Grapes of Wrath, there will always be people willing to chase a dream, be it a franchise or a coffee shop. They mortgage their house on personal guarantee, get their 5 year lease fixed annual indexation, go bust somewhere along the way and lose their life savings and house. It's not sustainable but that is how these commercial tenancies get let, the developer just waits until they can find a woodduck. The real tenancy rental gets sorted out later when the landlord has to re-let it. I have a friend with a New Farm prime commercial tenancy which has been vacant for 9 months, it is ugly.

a few months ago I was happy to see a new bubble tea place there (not that I drink it but just because yay, finally someone's moved in) - I walked past yesterday at lunchtime and it was closed and looked empty, like it was out of business (although I couldn't see a sign or anything, maybe it's just randomly closed Thursday?)


the exact same thing happened to a donut time near me at carindale. it lasted less than 6 months. retail food is under extreme pressure with ubereats etc
10:57am 07/06/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39792 posts
in any case, a change in the value of ground floor commercial real estate in a multi-level development is not going to be significant enough to break an LVR covenant, in every situation the developer isbetter off letting it\ and generating some income.
Right but that is obviously not what is happening. So either every developer and owner is completely stupid and sitting there cheerfully losing money or there are other factors at play (like the ones presented in the ABC article).

I can pretty easily believe they're stupid, but I have also wondered if and how they can write off this as a tax loss? Because presumably some of them are large operations and the ability to use this as a lever in their tax shenanigans might be worth the loss of income?
Just like the Grapes of Wrath, there will always be people willing to chase a dream, be it a franchise or a coffee shop. They mortgage their house on personal guarantee, get their 5 year lease fixed annual indexation, go bust somewhere along the way and lose their life savings and house. It's not sustainable but that is how these commercial tenancies get let, the developer just waits until they can find a woodduck. The real tenancy rental gets sorted out later when the landlord has to re-let it. I have a friend with a New Farm prime commercial tenancy which has been vacant for 9 months, it is ugly.
Well I was cautiously optimisitc about this when I saw the obvious glut of commercial real estate, thinking that would at least take some of the pressure off because they'll start getting desperate to lease. But it hasn't happened yet
03:11pm 07/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1676 posts
Australia's gun laws do not work well. Western Sydney's gang problem and the number of mass shootings in the last decade alone are testament to this.


I don't think any kind of gun laws are ever going to remove guns from organised crime. What gun laws are great with however, is keeping everyday civilians from having access to the ability to make a bad decision in the heat of the moment during an escalated situation. And again, don't underestimate how important it is that police are able to do their work in a safe environment (if not for their sake, for your own when you encounter them).
03:54pm 07/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6003 posts
Jeeesus. Our gun laws do not work well?
Yet again some people just cant wrap their heads around trends and laws that cause a reduction of crime. They do, and never can be expected to eliminate all forms of gun violence. But the laws work well at reducing gun related violence.
But because shootings still happen, the gun laws dont work well in the empty minds of people like dazed.

https://i.imgur.com/Tfd0WLG.png
05:19pm 07/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3532 posts
Simul do you agree people are entitled to draw the line between personal autonomy and community safety differently?
05:34pm 07/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1164 posts
Coalition and libs keep winning Fed and NSW government elections

https://i.imgur.com/NQLm7G9.jpg
06:54pm 07/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6004 posts
Hey Nmag, care to tell us the achievements of the liberals whilst in power in NSW and Federal? Is it just about beating the other side instead of thinking about evidence based policy?
07:10pm 07/06/19 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1137 posts
Vash, the conversation was about gun related homicides, not suicides or accidental deaths yes?

So why did you post an infographic which gave the *total* number of gun related deaths for each year?

This graph from the AIC Firearm Deaths publication breaks it down:
https://aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/cfi/images/cfi066.gif

The following graph from the AIC's 2010-2012 Homicide report shows that the percentage of gun related homicide deaths only really started to drop some 5 years after the gun laws were introduced and long after the buyback happened. And the percentage of knife related deaths pretty much balanced out that loss.
https://imgur.com/o2p1jN1.jpg

I have no strong position on the gun control debate. I probably lean more towards gun control than against it, but c'mon, be honest and practice due diligence when you present stats.

Your infographic suggests that gun related crimes dropped by over half since the early 90's when in fact there hasn't been anywhere near that much change. Gun related suicides are well down however. I wonder if non-gun related suicides are also down as much or if people found other ways to kill themselves?

last edited by Rukh at 21:26:57 07/Jun/19
09:21pm 07/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1677 posts
Simul do you agree people are entitled to draw the line between personal autonomy and community safety differently?


As long as that personal autonomy doesn't decrease the community safety for everyone else.

Guns for sport and for farming/hunting I completely get, I have no problems with that as long as they are managed and licensed effectively.

My issue with guns is the "self defense" argument, which I find insane (now that I'm living in a country where I need to consider guns in every situation). Thought experiment:
1. Think about a situation in your past where a gun would have improved your safety
2. Consider that the other people in the situation also had guns, would you really be safer?
3. Think about the last time you got into a heated argument with someone, would them having a gun on hand make you more safe?
4. Think about the times that you have interacted with a police officer, how would that situation be different if you were carrying?
5. Think about your kids in the same situations? Should they then carry too to be "safe"?

The pro-gun argument (which I agree there are definitely arguments for), for the most part cherry-picks unlikely situations, and mostly ignore the stupidity of everyday life situations.

I don't think guns are bad, just that they are unnecessary in most peoples lives, and a community with guns makes life objectively less safe. Thats why police exist, to protect and serve.

Fun fact:
"Death by gunshot was the second-highest cause of death in the United States in 2016 among children and adolescents ages 1 to 19"
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr1804754

There are so many gun stories that I could tell about living over here, but they are so random and unbelievable that they just don't sink in for people who have never seen it.

11:30pm 07/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1678 posts
Just to give a quick bit of context, I live in a mid/upper middle class area in the US, it looks similar to like Oxley area, mostly families. The community has a blog, where they do events etc. Out of curiosity, I had a quick look at what is happening the last few months crime wise:

5/17/2019: Gunfire at 24th/Kenyon; SWAC spectator grazed
5/5/2019: Gunfire in Lincoln Park
4/20/2019: Gunfire investigations in White Center
4/5/2019: Helicopter, ground search after gunfire in Highland Park
4/3/2019: Overnight gunfire
3/25/2019: Man shot in South Delridge
3/18/2019: Man shot in bar bathroom

Stray bullets seem to be the main issue, e.g.:
8:44 PM: Police at the stadium tell us a person in the stands watching the track meet that’s just ended/ending was grazed by a “stray bullet” – possibly related to the other gunfire scene, which is reported to be somewhere on Holden (we’re headed that way next).


Whats most amazing here, is that the police response to stray bullets is essentially "*shrug* it happens, nothing can be done about it".
11:51pm 07/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3533 posts
The pro-gun argument (which I agree there are definitely arguments for), for the most part cherry-picks unlikely situations, and mostly ignore the stupidity of everyday life situations.


Yes I agree that you can find cherry picked data, but as Rukh helpfully demonstrated that's a problem on both sides of the argument. I think you answered the question in the affirmative however.

As long as that personal autonomy doesn't decrease the community safety for everyone else.


I'd suggest to you that this is a false dichotomy, in the sense that the two sit in tension. You can't pick one or the other they have to be balanced. I'd suggest further we make policy choices in other areas with far higher consequences that balance these two. By way of example nobody *needs* to drive at 100km. We could ban private long distance driving and make a big impact on the road toll. See how much political will you can muster for that. You'd probably save more lives than if you could reduce gun deaths to zero tomorrow and it will never happen. Ever. I understand that guns are different from cars, but this example would only ban an inherently dangerous use of cars so I think the analogy is actually pretty strong.

The point is simply this. In the US people have a right enshrined in law to carry arms.

That law can be changed, but it is a political process to change it. The very first step is to genuinely recognise there is a real debate to be had.

You can't do that until you recognise people will draw the line I'm talking about differently with good reasons.
12:03am 08/06/19 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39793 posts
Just to give a quick bit of context, I live in a mid/upper middle class area in the US, it looks similar to like Oxley area, mostly families
What state are you in out of interest dude? (I guess WA?)
There are so many gun stories that I could tell about living over here, but they are so random and unbelievable that they just don't sink in for people who have never seen it.
I completely agree and there is almost no point arguing with people about it as a result, they will never understand the difference between the two types of freedom
08:53am 08/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3534 posts
I completely agree and there is almost no point arguing with people about it as a result, they will never understand the difference between the two types of freedom


Yeah maybe. Just maybe they understand it just fine and chose one over the other.
09:47am 08/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1680 posts
I'd suggest to you that this is a false dichotomy, in the sense that the two sit in tension. You can't pick one or the other they have to be balanced. I'd suggest further we make policy choices in other areas with far higher consequences that balance these two. By way of example nobody *needs* to drive at 100km. We could ban private long distance driving and make a big impact on the road toll. See how much political will you can muster for that. You'd probably save more lives than if you could reduce gun deaths to zero tomorrow and it will never happen. Ever. I understand that guns are different from cars, but this example would only ban an inherently dangerous use of cars so I think the analogy is actually pretty strong.


I completely agree about there is a level of balance, however, its about changing existing gun laws, and change is different than from scratch, social norms etc. If driving wasn't a thing, and they said "you can drive at 100km/h max, or 80km/h max and save more lives", then I would definitely fight for 80km/h. And we already do this on a case by case basis, if there is a stretch of road where there fatal accidents, then solutions are put in place (albeit badly) to improve the situation. Same with smoking, if tobacco was new, and there wasn't an existing social norms, there is no way that they would be legal.

The point is simply this. In the US people have a right enshrined in law to carry arms.


Yep. Also Australians don't do the American thing of "*100% freedom*", instead they side on the "nanny state" - nanny state has its down sides and its risks but at least in my experiences thus far it results in a a far safer and respectful place to live overall.

That law can be changed, but it is a political process to change it. The very first step is to genuinely recognise there is a real debate to be had.
You can't do that until you recognise people will draw the line I'm talking about differently with good reasons.


On the assumption that you are talking about the US gun laws, they are never going to change. Freedom is ingrained in their culture. The amount of s*** that I see, and it is just like "oh freedom", there is no other explanation. And I get it, guns are part of their culture, and as someone who lives here I choose to accept it, I just don't want to see Australia politics ever consider reversing their gun laws, because it doesn't make things better.
11:17am 08/06/19 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1681 posts
What state are you in out of interest dude? (I guess WA?)


Yeah WA, though I studied in the bay area for a while too. I should note, I absolutely love the US, even with its quirks.

last edited by simul at 11:21:55 08/Jun/19
11:19am 08/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
706 posts
Jeeesus. Our gun laws do not work well?
Yet again some people just cant wrap their heads around trends and laws that cause a reduction of crime. They do, and never can be expected to eliminate all forms of gun violence. But the laws work well at reducing gun related violence.
But because shootings still happen, the gun laws dont work well in the empty minds of people like dazed.

https://i.imgur.com/Tfd0WLG.png


Notice Vash the gun deaths were declining before the semi-auto buyback? Notice Vash that gun deaths effectively ceased declining following that Vash? Probably not. You're excellent at linking pretty pictures that damage your argument.
09:03am 09/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
707 posts
09:48am 12/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6007 posts
1% of cime is committed in Victoria by Sudanese. Going by the their population that is around 6 times the average.
It's a concern but not something to be overly worried about. Measures can be put in place to find out why this is happening.

My theory is that there is so much racism in Australia it's a natural reaction by youth of african ethnicity to say f*** you to racists. Or confused dazed can just say, their culture is bad ours is better.

The kids picked a good store to f*** with. Because the CEO is a c*** who cries about any company coming in that threatens his market share. Seeing him have a whinge is always nice. Business owners love free market Capitalism until they start failing and ask for hand outs to save them. Socialism for the rich etc etc.
01:57pm 12/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3535 posts
I completely agree about there is a level of balance, however, its about changing existing gun laws, and change is different than from scratch, social norms etc. If driving wasn't a thing, and they said "you can drive at 100km/h max, or 80km/h max and save more lives", then I would definitely fight for 80km/h. And we already do this on a case by case basis, if there is a stretch of road where there fatal accidents, then solutions are put in place (albeit badly) to improve the situation. Same with smoking, if tobacco was new, and there wasn't an existing social norms, there is no way that they would be legal.


Well yes but the argument can be applied to 80 km aswell. Hence I didn't suggest a general lowering of the speed limit. I said all long distance driving could be banned. You'd capture fatigue that way too. Now I could go on a rant about how even one death is too many. But at some point people will accept a level of fatalities to preserve individual autonomy. We should keep in mind some communities don't draw the line on speed at all. Germany for example.

Which leads nicely into this

On the assumption that you are talking about the US gun laws, they are never going to change. Freedom is ingrained in their culture. The amount of s*** that I see, and it is just like "oh freedom", there is no other explanation. And I get it, guns are part of their culture, and as someone who lives here I choose to accept it, I just don't want to see Australia politics ever consider reversing their gun laws, because it doesn't make things better.


Maybe change is possible. Maybe not. But I'd suggest whatever hope there is for change it would lie it not pushing sandyhooks to hard.

To push forward with the speed analogy, imagine for a second you went with a strategy of telling everyone whose ever drived at 100km they are complicit in killing children and despite the fact the person responsible wasn't allowed to legally drive at 100km anyway, if you want five minutes to think about a right you've enjoyed you're entire life responsibly you're an inhuman monster whose obstructionism can only be explained by your deep-seated personal evil.
06:28pm 12/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1165 posts

Vash you can't blame their crimes on racism. If you came from a 3rd world, war torn s***hole where people needed to beg, steal and murder to have an enjoyable life then you would likely be a piece of s*** person having trouble fitting into civilised society regardless of you skin colour. It's not about race or skin colour. Some people are just crap people. The colour of skin is irrelevant. I thought you understood this as you are "anti-racist"?

When anti-racists think a nation is a "race". How generalised and stereotypical. Few years ago we had "Muslims are a race" now we have "Islamophobia". It's time your left wing nut job journalists at the The Guardian and ABC News invented "Sudanophobia" and some other poorly crafted buslls*** words to push a failed narrative,

Also for Vash.. an image

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11202870-3x2-940x627.jpghttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-12/hong-kong-protests-extradition-law/11201182


07:08pm 12/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
708 posts
1% of cime is committed in Victoria by Sudanese. Going by the their population that is around 6 times the average.
It's a concern but not something to be overly worried about. Measures can be put in place to find out why this is happening.

My theory is that there is so much racism in Australia it's a natural reaction by youth of african ethnicity to say f*** you to racists. Or confused dazed can just say, their culture is bad ours is better.


Hhahaha yeah someone who came here 5 minutes ago and has an exponentially better life than he did in a 3rd world s***hole is raging against racism and is not an opportunistic degenerate who are also pervasive in their own country. Another stunning display of logic gymnastics by Vash,

Socialism for the rich etc etc.


Yes the rich are often socialist. Hence why you have CEOs in Silicon Valley being massive commie lovers, socialists and all round brain dead authoritarians.
11:48am 13/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1166 posts

Gebran Bassil claims many refugees are not living in political fear, but stay for economic reasons



Yah kidding?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/15/thousands-of-syrian-refugees-could-be-sent-back-says-lebanese-minister

“They are working in Lebanon, taking jobs from the Lebanese because they paid at cheaper rate because they have no taxes to pay and they are being assisted on top of the wages they are paid.”

09:04pm 15/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24322 posts
She's obviously a racist.
09:17pm 15/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26573 posts
Gebran Bassil is a he you dumb f***.
03:44pm 16/06/19 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24323 posts
Don't be so binary.
04:01pm 16/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6008 posts
So... about that recent Trump interview. Any thoughts?

I suppose there's so many messy ones i'll have to point out this one in particular thats covered well by Pakman

05:50pm 16/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26575 posts
At this point anyone who feels confident enough to loudly proclaim trump's innocence knows that trump worked with the Russians when they attacked the USA and then committed obstruction of justice in the cover up. They want trump to prevail despite being aware of the full extent of his criminality.

Conspiracy numpties gutso when defending him is concerning. If there are people that far gone here imagine how far gone dumb trump hicks are in the Mother Country? The fact he is still in office is strong evidence that the US has already suffered permanent damage. A functional democracy would have had him gone the day after the Mueller Report dropped. tbh, I know very little about the technicalities of the American political and justice system, but from what I've read the main problem is that the system wasn't designed for something like this. A rogue president who is able to use the legal protections usually afforded to a rational actor as protection for his nefarious bulls***.

Here's the thing though. When trump is finally disposed of the die has already been cast. If you had to pick the #1 disinformation tactic used by trump it would be accuse others of what they themselves are doing. When the Democrats are back the system is already in place to fabricate, obstruct and harass complete with legions of drooling morons to believe every word of it. I reckon this will take decades to fix.
09:44pm 16/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6009 posts
queue PP saying 'im so smart because i predicted nothing will come about from Mueller's investigation'
Or something else completely unrelated.

It's all about we're winning, you're losing. Or about getting the other side worked up. This is how low politics has become.
11:38pm 16/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3536 posts
The Mueller report has amounted to nothing. Like I said it would.

Fpot is a conspiracy nut job who is psychologically incapable of accepting the outcome of the 2016 election.

To be honest I think deep down he know his brand of discussion is largely responsible and so he has to grope around for anything to blame that doesn't involve him dealing with how f*****g stupid he is.

He read that report and despite the fact it clearly states that no crime could be charged fpot has convinced himself that a criminal mastermind is in the white house.

The fact he is still in office is strong evidence that the US has already suffered permanent damage. A functional democracy would have had him gone the day after the Mueller Report dropped. tbh, I know very little about the technicalities of the American political and justice system, but from what I've read the main problem is that the system wasn't designed for something like this.


See look it's all right here. Fpot doesn't know a f*****g thing about the US criminal justice system, but he knows an elected president should have been removed from office the second the Mueller report *which recommended no charges be brought* dropped.

It's not my problem he has worked himself into a rich creamy lather.

The US system has a mechanism for exactly to situation of a president going rogue. It's called impeachment.

Now someone whose not, what's the phrase
legions of drooling morons


Might read something into Pelosi not wanting to pull the trigger.
07:39am 17/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
709 posts
It's all about we're winning, you're losing. Or about getting the other side worked up. This is how low politics has become.


If it's low now heaven forbid it sinks to the depth of knowing absolutely nothing about the subject matter and also making wild accusations with precisely no backing except from people like Maxine Waters like you and fpot do like absolute clockwork.

I know very little about the technicalities of the American political and justice system


At least you're finally admitting it.
08:20am 17/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6010 posts
See look it's all right here. Fpot doesn't know a f*****g thing about the US criminal justice system, but he knows an elected president should have been removed from office the second the Mueller report *which recommended no charges be brought* dropped.


Oh save me.

This guy claims fpot knows nothing about the U.S Justice system and said what he just did. The mind boggles.
01:30pm 17/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26576 posts
heh, sometimes I am tempted to turn off the tampermonkey script just to see how low someone who is brazen enough to tout themselves as an intellectual centrist voice of reason is willing to go to defend their god emperor donald trump. Then I remember I follow people like jack posobiec, candace owens, charlie kirk, you know, the real twitter trainwrecks of humanity and remember that their shameless displays of dishonesty and numptitude sate my desires completely.
01:53pm 17/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3537 posts
This guy claims fpot knows nothing about the U.S Justice system and said what he just did. The mind boggles.


Yeah it's really not that surprising that you can't see the internal incoherence of claiming a definite outcome while admitting you don't know how a system works.

It's part of why you are so unintentionally funny so often.

Then I remember I follow people like jack posobiec, candace owens, charlie kirk, you know, the real twitter trainwrecks of humanity and remember that their shameless displays of dishonesty and numptitude sates my desires completely.


Except it doesn't. And really obviously so
02:12pm 17/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1167 posts

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11217686-3x2-940x627.jpg
one of their girls took a doll without paying for it. In a $10 million lawsuit, the family is alleging unlawful imprisonment, false arrest and infliction of emotional distress
Police said they were tipped off to the theft by employees
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-17/video-shows-us-police-pointing-gun-at-pregnant-mother/11215976
08:45pm 17/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6012 posts
Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President's conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.


Due to constitutional law, Mueller could not accuse the President of a crime. Its extremely telling the language he's using, it's with alot of restraint because he is bound by the constitution.

And its exceedingly obvious why Barr was chosen by Trump. Trump's got Fox news & Republicans by the balls. (and somehow some of our ignorant queenslanders here, how odd) so he wont get impeached despite the evidence of obstruction is quite clear.
03:12am 18/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3538 posts
Well that had it all.

Fox News made Barr do it. Barr covered up the report by releasing it publicly.

Fire can't melt steel beams.

See this is how dopey you are

if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state.


We can't be sure a crime wasn't committed becomes a crime definitely was committed.

We don't know for certain you're innocent therefore you're guilty.

Dunning Kruger in full effect y'all.
05:46am 18/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26579 posts
There's really no point trying to convince the people loudly proclaiming innocence. If you're not read up or are apathetic about it I can understand not knowing what the go is. However as soon as you see a dumb dumb jumping up and down angry about it you know that they know what the truth is. They're trying to hide from it and hoping to convince fence sitters who haven't read the report that they're right. The golden period of doubt for trump supporters is now over. This is real desperate times for them because everyday and with every word that pours out of his c*** mouth it just becomes more and more obvious.
06:39am 18/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41347 posts
drump and trade tariffs on 4 corners last nite: https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/trumps-trade-war/11205158

very interesting (and scarry)
06:54am 18/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3539 posts
If you had to pick the #1 disinformation tactic used by trump it would be accuse others of what they themselves are doing.


Interesting turn of phrase that one. Makes you think about sentences like this.

They're trying to hide from it and hoping to convince fence sitters who haven't read the report that they're right.


You know, that report he never does pinpoint references to.

He gets very worked up our fpot. This time he *knows* the walls are closing in.
06:55am 18/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26580 posts
Heh yeah in amongst all the Russia stuff lies a deeply incompetent and unstable individual. Thankfully that was also his undoing.

edit: damn I thought that was an iview link but it's not up till midnight tonight.
07:04am 18/06/19 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41348 posts
he has a child like view of trade, which is scary considering how many advisors he has access to.

a child in control of the worlds biggest economy.
07:19am 18/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26581 posts
one of their girls took a doll without paying for it. In a $10 million lawsuit, the family is alleging unlawful imprisonment, false arrest and infliction of emotional distress
How much would it be worth to you if you truly feared for the lives of your entire make believe family at the hands of the police?
07:28am 18/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
710 posts
However as soon as you see a dumb dumb jumping up and down angry about it
This is real desperate times for them because everyday and with every word that pours out of his c*** mouth it just becomes more and more obvious.


Angry words from a dumb dumb.
08:32am 18/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26583 posts
Wow I am owned.
04:31pm 18/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3540 posts
It's going to be enjoyable to watch the fpot get increasingly shrill as impeachment simply doesn't happen.

Election night 2020 is going to be pure rolled gold.

I wonder if "unrestricted warfare" was mentioned by 4 corners.
05:56pm 18/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6013 posts
We can't be sure a crime wasn't committed becomes a crime definitely was committed. We don't know for certain you're innocent therefore you're guilty. Dunning Kruger in full effect y'all.


Man you're a running joke at this point. I hope you continue posting for a long time to come. the comedy is top notch. He's also found a new love for fpot instead of trog.
Can't handle being ignored our lil PP.
The insecurities are strong in this one.
08:11pm 18/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3541 posts
If you say so vash.

You managed to get the evidence for obstruction of justice is clear from "we can't be sure he didn't commit a crime". That's a prosecutor whose really comfortable for real.

I know you know exactly zero about this. So please let's have another discussion where I drag you to saying you something objectively retarded.

Let's just say "due to constitutional law" seems like exceedingly fertile ground.
08:35pm 18/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1168 posts
I don't need to play the entitled victim card fpot. There's no way in hell I'd let my kids steal a doll from a store. We are getting the words of the parents in the empathy bulls*** journalistic news service. Shop would not have needed to call police if it was as simple as the victim (dad) makes out.

I also just watched videos of atrocities happening in HK. I watched the video and could not see one bit of police violence that was not warranted. You follow police instructions, there is no other option. I'm guessing victims doll thief parents did not, and neither are the rioters getting hurt in HK.

Americans.... I read today something about what a tragedy Pearl Harbour was and correlations to twin towers 9/11 event.

"United States detonated two nuclear weapons over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, 1945... The two bombings killed 129,000–226,000 people, most of whom were civilians"

It's not like the cops fired a rocket launcher at the family's car. That would be the American way to go right over the top with the war machine mentality. Call in an air strike on this car, I think they stole a doll and they are not cooperating.
10:34pm 18/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26584 posts
You don't need to play the entitled victim card except when you cry about your post frequency being limited on the ausgamers internet forum with your pathetic whining and laughable passive aggressive signature. But when a family is facing death from the very people who are charged with protecting them because a four year old walked out of a store with a doll and want justice? That's just too much. You're a complete and utter joke. That's why you pretend to be the sensible family man because in your tiny deluded mind you believe it gives you some form of legitimacy. Bad news friendo, it doesn't.
06:34am 19/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3542 posts
We can't all be Gold Coast bouncers insanely jealous of infi.
06:48am 19/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
711 posts
fpot drinking the CNN pisswater by the gallon as usual, refusing to engage his 3rd brain cell and imagine nuance. No one should wonder why he struggles to comprehend the outcome of something as complex as the Mueller report.
10:20am 19/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6014 posts
Ooh CNN.
Scary centrist network.

If you want to know what democratic leftist ideology looks like, you're not going to find it on any mainstream media network.
And it would probably hurt your feelings dazed, so best stick to your safe place.

Having being a former conservative when my political knowledge was minimal, it became very difficult to find any reason to stick to it. If you're all about facts over feelings which some moronic conservative commentators love to tout, you would certainly not be showing such behavior. PP, infi, dazed & Nmag all show signs of. Suppose it's another example of projection when someone's belief system is threatened. It would be fascinating to observe if people weren't suffering at the hands of your ideology.
12:18pm 19/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3543 posts
Having being a former conservative when my political knowledge was minimal, it became very difficult to find any reason to stick to it.


The most consistently totally politically ignorant person on forum.

I hope you continue posting for a long time to come. the comedy is top notch.
02:46pm 19/06/19 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4425 posts
if you were Elon Musk you’d tell the SEC / IRS / lolgov to kiss my ass, too

as if they could stop you
05:05pm 19/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
712 posts
Ooh CNN.
Scary centrist network.

If you want to know what democratic leftist ideology looks like, you're not going to find it on any mainstream media network.
And it would probably hurt your feelings dazed, so best stick to your safe place.

Having being a former conservative when my political knowledge was minimal, it became very difficult to find any reason to stick to it. If you're all about facts over feelings which some moronic conservative commentators love to tout, you would certainly not be showing such behavior. PP, infi, dazed & Nmag all show signs of. Suppose it's another example of projection when someone's belief system is threatened. It would be fascinating to observe if people weren't suffering at the hands of your ideology.


Vash I stopped arguing the facts with you and fpot long ago. It was too easy to get you two pin heads to froth at the mouth about whatever lefty moral grandstanding exercise you were undertaking at the time. Now it is just about recreating all those great times for the humiliation and humour factors. You guys still don't disappoint.
10:12am 20/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6016 posts
Ah dazed dazed. You chose your name well.
Hint: Posting charts without a source isn't presenting facts.
Pointing out gun laws are not effective when they are is not a fact.

You stopped arguing because it requires too much mental gymnastics to disprove anything. PP does it in a different way with all kinds of gish gallop. Which is why he's ignored. It's the only way your ideology exists, to capture the dumb who dont care to critically think.
03:49pm 20/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3544 posts
Haha yes vash.

Tell yourself what you have to. I look forward to you proving you don't understand something in the near future.

Hey so how's that green new deal which you told us was going to save humanity despite knowing nothing about it coming along?

One day you might even appropriate an argument from r/latestagecapitalism with out screwing it up.
04:53pm 20/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6017 posts
See what i mean?
Green new deal, a proposal presented to help combat a real threat to all life on the planet. Only cares to point out 'you know nothin' about it'
No proposal by the opposition. Bury the climate change issue as much as you can in your mind, PP. Your ego can't take the reality that your political ideology has no clue how to handle it.
05:16pm 20/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3545 posts
Bless your cotton socks.

Her own side has walked away from it not just the 'opposition'.

But seeing as you are too stupid to draw the connections yourself let's do the colour by numbers version.

It's the only way your ideology exists, to capture the dumb who dont care to critically think.

Going great guns on a high minded screed until woops...
Only cares to point out 'you know nothin' about it'


And you walk into it *every* *single* *time*.

You waffle on about "evidenced based policy" but have never once demonstrated you understand the evidence that drives a policy. It is invariably jingoistic crap that you post. Which invariably comes from one ideological place. The above being a prime example. Vague appeals to stopping a threat "to all life on earth" are not critical thinking vash.
05:56pm 20/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6018 posts
Still waiting on that proposal from Republicans heheh.
You might as well just deny the problem exists at this point PP. It wont stress you out so much.
06:56pm 20/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3546 posts
It's the same as the democrats vash, which is not the green new deal.

Probably because banning cows isn't a real policy.
07:08pm 20/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6019 posts
Show me the reference to banning cows & air travel in the Green new deal.
Let me guess, you learned about it from Trump tweeting about it? You never cease to amuse.
07:13pm 20/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3547 posts
Oops vash had another bad syntax match. I think I'll let you prove it isn't there vash. Because you haven't read it. Look for farting cows.

But even better tell me how many democrats voted for it when given the chance. Oh it was zero.
08:09pm 20/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
713 posts
Ah dazed dazed. You chose your name well.
Hint: Posting charts without a source isn't presenting facts.
Pointing out gun laws are not effective when they are is not a fact.

You stopped arguing because it requires too much mental gymnastics to disprove anything. PP does it in a different way with all kinds of gish gallop. Which is why he's ignored. It's the only way your ideology exists, to capture the dumb who dont care to critically think.


Go back to the graph you're talking about vash and see that I added an edit just for you.

The point is it didn't even matter that it was sourced because you cherry pick your source then you cherry pick your data from said source, as the exact f***en graph you're b****ing about demonstrated if you bothered to verify the garbage you go on with.

Keep going though. These are the laughs I live for.
10:49am 21/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6020 posts
If only it were possible to have a constructive conversation with people in these threads without personal attacks. We're all guilty of this. I'll try to refrain for now on, provided you guys are on board as well.

How about this, who here believes climate change is something that needs to be addressed, now?
And what parts of the Green new deal dont you agree with?

If you disagree with the proposal, then tell me of an alternative and i'll have a read it.
08:52pm 21/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1169 posts

My earlier point was that it appears the journalists are senationalising that some "black" family is being unnecessarily harassed.. resulting in "we want 10 million. fpot comes out with "facing the death penalty". fpot the master of exaggeration and absolutes such as "all" "every" "none". Attacks the person instead of the argument. People throw asolutes around and attack the individual when their argument lacks credibility. It's a sign of low intelligence. Basically mental laziness. Not exercising the brain in an analytical manner. Going with the heart. Gripping the emotion. Because those ways are easier, they are the lazy easy option. You don't exercise you mind, it's easy to become just another emotional charged braindead sheep driven by the self rightshouenes of the benevolent leftist ideals. The kind of person who argues for the environment but owns a domestic dog and cat. It's ok fpot, I no longer expect logic from yourself or Vash. I accept your opinion.

surveillance video from the store showed that the family, who has threatened a $10 million lawsuit against Phoenix police for stopping them, was actually shoplifting.... store employees notified police about several shoplifters who were leaving the store.... manager pointed out 22-year-old Dravon Ames, 24-year-old Lesha Harper, their two young daughters, and 48-year-old Renita Lynn Biscoe and said they had stolen a bunch of toys, according to the incident report from the Phoenix Police Department.


I like I said.. there will be more to it than the initial triggering hype published

Store surveillance video showed that prior to the store manager’s intervention, Biscoe and the four year old were standing near the checkout inside the store. The little girl was carrying a Baby Alive doll. All of a sudden, Biscoe put down the items she was holding and left the store. The four-year-old girl followed her, still carrying the doll which had not been paid for. A second surveillance video showed Ames inside the Family Dollar as he appeared to be shopping for underwear. In the video, Ames was holding a package before he turned his back to the camera, and then when he turned back around, the package was gone, the Arizona Republic reported. That’s when the store manager notified the officer who was already there in response to another shoplifting call. When the suspects saw Officer Welch looking at them, they fled to their vehicle in the parking lot, but the officer managed to stop Biscoe from leaving, the Arizona Republic reported. Biscoe put down the foil she had been holding before she left the store, so the officer didn’t see her actually steal anything from the Family Dollar, but it turned out that she was already wanted on warrants by Phoenix, the city of El Mirage, and the Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS), according to the police report. Officers attempted to stop Ames, but he fled from them in his vehicle. An officer located Ames driving after he fled, and initiated a high-risk traffic stop on him at a nearby apartment complex. The officers ordered the occupants to put their hands up. Ames began yelling at police that he hadn’t done anything wrong and then reached for something between the seats, according to the police report. The officer pulled his weapon and ordered them again to put their hands up while saying, "You're gonna f---ing get shot!" Officers continued to use profanity while giving orders to the family. Ames started to comply by placing his hands on the steering wheel, but Harper yelled “I have my child in here. I am not putting my hands up!†according to the police report. Backup officers arrived and Ames complied with orders to get out of the vehicle and was taken into custody. A cell phone video filmed by a bystander showed Ames lying on the pavement on his stomach while an officer handcuffed him, KPNX reported. Then the officer stood Ames up and pushed him up against side of a police SUV and ordered him to spread his legs apart. The video showed the when Ames failed to spread his legs far enough apart, the officer kicked Ames’ right leg out further out, and the man fell to his knees. That’s when an officer opened the back door of the suspects’ vehicle and ordered Harper out of the car, the video showed. The four-year-old girl was the first to emerge from the backseat and the video showed the officer immediately holstered his weapon when she appeared. Then Harper got out carrying a toddler on her hip, the video showed. In the video, she argued with the police officer who wanted her to step over to a shady area and set the baby down, the Arizona Republic reported. Harper behaved in a combative manner toward officers throughout the video. “This is all for nothing,†she cried hysterically as officers walked her and her children across the parking lot. The officers let Harper pass the children to a friend and then placed her in handcuffs, the video showed. Police found the stolen doll in the backseat of the suspects’ vehicle, according to the police report. Harper told police she was in the grocery store next door and her aunt, Biscoe, had taken her four-year-old daughter into the Family Dollar. She said she knew the doll had to be stolen when she saw it because she knew her aunt and daughter had no money when they went into the store, according to the police report. Harper said she heard Officer Welch tell them to stop, and that she told Ames to stop, but that he ignored her and continued to flee. Police did not arrest Harper and she was released shortly thereafter. When police interviewed Ames, he admitted to stealing a pair of underwear from the Family Dollar, according to the police report. He said that he threw them out the window somewhere between the store and the apartment complex. The police report said Ames admitted to officers that he ran because he was scared because his license was suspended from a DUI. Ames was issued a citation for driving on a suspended license and released. His car was impounded, according to the police report. No one was arrested for shoplifting because the store manager declined to prosecute, The Washington Post reported. Maricopa County court records showed that Ames was involved in a car crash on Oct. 31, 2018 and was arrested in connection with assaulting two officers who responded to the scene, the Arizona Republic reported. Phoenix Police Chief Jeri Williams called what she saw of the arrests in the bystanders’ videos “unacceptable†and said that the officers involved had been taken off patrol and assigned to desk duty while the incident was investigated, KPNX reported. Chief Williams said the officers were not wearing bodycams because they haven’t been given to police in that precinct yet, but promised to expedite the investigation. "I am with everyone in the community who is angry, who is outraged,†the chief said. “I have officers out there who are angry and outraged to see this is what brush we are being painted with when I know we that we're better than that, I know this department is better than that, I know our community is better than that but at the end of the day I have to take responsibility and be accountable.†Ames and Harper held a press conference with their attorney on Monday and demanded that the police officers be fired. They also announced their intention to sue the city for $10 million and alleged that officers “committed battery, unlawful imprisonment, false arrest, infliction of emotional distress, and violation of civil rights under the fifth and 14th amendments of the United States Constitution,†The Washington Post reported. The lawsuit claims that the four-year-old has been having nightmares and wetting the bed since the incident. It also says that Ames was left with a limp and no transportation to work, The Washington Post reported.
https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/family-says-they-were-held-at-gunpoint-for-shoplifting-doll-now-truth-is-out-0swFkEHB1k6ol-3A5WrBtQ/

Case closed: I suggested there was more to it. There was. It was not just a kid stealing a doll. It was a pack of criminals doing some routine shoplifting who dumped their stolen items and fled, but the girl still carried the doll. They didn't cooperate with the police and are now playing the victim card. My point being the left wing article I read the initial article in was the kind of lies that trigger poor souls like vash and fpot. The occupants of my house have no criminal record and are not wanted for outstanding warrants. I have not taught my children how to shoplift. We respect Police and comply with their requests. I can understand that if you live in that chaotic cesspool gold coast crime haven how you might not respect the need for law an order. I do appreciate your views, but I don't quite agree with your outlook on law enforcement.

Hey Nmag, care to tell us the achievements of the liberals whilst in power in NSW and Federal? Is it just about beating the other side instead of thinking about evidence based policy?


Well it's more that I prefer the things the libs have done compared to what labor did. For example, Libs been building infrastructure in NSW to try and play "catch up" or the masses labor have been letting in. I wasn't keen on the spike in boats under labor. I wasn't keen on Rudd's $900 hand out. I wasn't keen on the BER. I'm not keen on militant unionists having increased power, or massive increases in public servants. I like privatisation.

I only saw the headlines but I saw a report has recommended ABC gets out of the big cities to save us some rent. Interesting. Here in NSW we had the "decade of decentralisation, getting public servants to move offices to the burbs instead of CBD... ABC would do well in say Dubbo or Bourke. If they were based there I'm sure they could get an even more diverse workforce.

Here's a video of how some Sydney "locals" do shoplifting:

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/crime/harvey-norman-boss-slams-little-hoods-after-electronics-stores-targeted-across-sydney/news-story/c50e3d01763ee5bca135f858ae948f19
09:52pm 21/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26588 posts
When someone hyper meltdowns like that they give you so much material to work with you pretty much just have to resort to the single most insane thing. I think declaring yourself the internet winner with that laughable blue lives matter weird geocities page thing is the real highlight. I get it, I am the braindead MSM gobbling fake news reading guy and you are the truly enlightened soul for finding the places that have the REAL TRUTH. The feeling that gives you is the drug that helps you forget you'll never feel the loving touch of another human being so you're never gonna give it up. Just know that if you someday snap out of it there will be a whole bunch of your writings you'll be able to look back and laugh at as you wonder what the f*** you were thinking.
10:52pm 21/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3548 posts
If you had to pick the #1 disinformation tactic used by trump it would be accuse others of what they themselves are doing.


Hard to overstate how well this sentence describes fpot.
09:41am 22/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
714 posts
fpot has now gone from Mueller report rants to stuff you would find written on a prison cell wall in faeces and blood. Magical.
12:52pm 22/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26590 posts
I know right? I was dead wrong about this whole debacle from the beginning. I did some research and it was the dems all along. Did you hear about the emails? And the text messages? Compelling stuff. How will I ever dig myself out of this pit of embarrassment? I know - by doubling down, and then doubling down again. Most people would start to feel shame after a while but for that to happen you actually have to be able to feel shame.
03:54pm 22/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3549 posts
Well at least you can admit hey fpot. You've been sold a comfortable lie for the last 3 years. I can understand why it would be hard to let go of.
11:22pm 22/06/19 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1170 posts
That's not a meltdown by me fpot, that's just me posting a wall of detail from the police report. When is your next rage quit from this thread?

Go the BLUES!
10:20am 24/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
715 posts
That's not a meltdown by me fpot, that's just me posting a wall of detail from the police report. When is your next rage quit from this thread?

Go the BLUES!


Orange man bad, cops be racisssss, par for the course for an NPC like fpot.
12:12pm 24/06/19 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26593 posts
lol 'NPC'. So did you give the other incels the white power gang sign as you typed that one out?
01:13pm 24/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3550 posts
lol 'NPC'. So did you give the other incels the white power gang sign as you typed that one out?
If you had to pick the #1 disinformation tactic used by trump it would be accuse others of what they themselves are doing.
02:59pm 24/06/19 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1139 posts
How about this, who here believes climate change is something that needs to be addressed, now?


From what I've heard and read, I believe that climate change is something that needs to be addressed and quickly.

I'll admit that it's not like I do anything personally to reduce energy usage and lowering demand is part of a useful strategy but ah well.

For the supply side I think we should transition to high efficiency, low emissions energy sources. And that seems to suggest technologies like nuclear and maybe wind power (where possible).
08:42pm 24/06/19 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
716 posts
lol 'NPC'


Complains about being called an NPC

So did you give the other incels the white power gang sign as you typed that one out?


whilst proving exactly why he is an NPC

I'm glad I can come here every day for this kind of banter.
12:12pm 25/06/19 Permalink
Vash
6021 posts
Cheers Rukh. Nuclear, while definitely a potent source of renewable energy, has other problems. And if the LNP like to state they win on the economics of climate change, well im they should be anti Nuclear as well, it's certainly not cheap.

If there were no alternatives to Nuclear to reach 100% renewables, i'd be all for it and would likely not vote Greens.

Dazed, care to tell us about your thoughts on climate change? One of the biggest problems we as a species will probably have to face. and its happening in our lifetimes.
This isn't hyperbole either, but i wish it was.
01:33pm 25/06/19 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3551 posts
Care to an offer an explanation of why nuclear is expensive vash?
06:57pm 25/06/19 Permalink
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