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Star Wars : The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3415 posts
How is there not a thread for this yet!?

I've seen TLJ, I liked it, it was my 4th favourite proper SW movie, I liked it more than "The Force Awakens".

The amount of people who are so butt hurt about this movie is f*****g hilarious.

So two questions:

1) Are yo butt hurt? Have you been betrayed? Has this somehow destroyed Star Wars for you but the prequels didn't - and if so WHY
2) Did you enjoy it, but you do acknowledge it probably wasn't the best star wars movie of our time?

k thks bye
04:28pm 21/12/17 Permalink
system
Internet
--
04:28pm 21/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7780 posts
I haven't seen it yet, but you are the first person that I know of to say that it isn't s***.
04:59pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3416 posts
Well I'm interested in the views of others....because it's not the BEST SW movie I've seen, but it's the BEST in the trilogy series since the originals IMO.
05:14pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23970 posts
I thought it was mostly great, I enjoyed it. Wasn't perfect, but it had enough awesome moments that I still rate it. I thought Leia's Mary Poppins moment was pretty cringeworthy though, that was something I could have done without. Finn's side story ended up being pretty pointless too, but I still enjoyed most of those bits so I didn't mind too much. Though I wasn't a big fan of Luke being a projection at the end instead of really being there, like you think hes a total badass cos he survives all that blaster fire, but then the reveal that he was just a projection and couldn't have been harmed anyway robs that scene of its badassness. On the whole though, not enough to make me not like the movie.

I loved the opening space battle with Poe taking on the dreadnaught, that was awesome. And I loved the fight scene in Snoke's throne room with the guards. Those weren't just two of my favourite scenes in the movie, those are probably two of my favourite scenes in any Star Wars movie. Also, lightspeed ramming into Snoke's flagship was epic

Haters gonna hate though, Force Awakens got hate for being too safe and borrowing too much from previous movies, now this one gets hate for being too different and going in different directions. I bet half the people whinging about how this movie treated characters like Snoke are the same ones that b****ed about not liking those characters in Force Awakens in the first place. Theres been some really, really strong, visceral hatred poured out for it but at the end of the day its just a movie, its not like Rian Johnson came into your home and murdered your first born son, people need to just chill the f*** out
06:07pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23971 posts
Also, controversial viewpoint maybe, but I loved Porgs
06:08pm 21/12/17 Permalink
MrWolf
Gold Coast, Queensland
266 posts
I loved it! I feel like between it & Force Awakens it's "forgotten" about a lot of the crap (Jar-Jar, mediclorians etc...) from Ep's 1-3.

Sure it had some pointless characters/scenes, but all in all it was an awesome SW movie. I would loved to have seen a more BSG '33' style lightspeed, combat/repairs, lightspeed chase but how they did it was cool.

Highlights: Saber combat was heavy & brutal (no flips & crap), no more "2 there must be" Sith formula, Rey not having mysterious force powered parentage, Leia's force powers, Poe being shut down by his superior officer (despite the blatant gender debate jab), Yoda cameo & Luke acting like a spoilt child lols.

I'll go see it at least once more on the big screen (I did the midnight nerd-fest where everyone cheered/clapped at every moment, so I missed some dialogue).
06:13pm 21/12/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40928 posts
no interest in seeing it in the slightest.

every sw moofie that gets made after the first 3 just f**** it up even more.
07:51pm 21/12/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39385 posts
It is hard to argue with what Spook says. But I am trying to be less negative and nitpicky about things other people get enjoyment from even if I don't and I feel like my time spent trying to convince others that it wasn't a good movie is futile and sad, so just to focus on a few bits I thought were especially cool - I actually really dug the last Luke scene (did he do that to try to save Kylo Ren from having to kill him and thus slip further into the dark side? what a legend!). The lightspeed ship thing was really spectacularly done (even if it does raise more questions). Mark Hamill was just so f*****g awesome and looked so bad ass.

It's so far beyond what Eps I-III are though so I don't know how anyone could be that upset about it :D
08:21pm 21/12/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21443 posts
no interest in seeing it in the slightest.

every sw moofie that gets made after the first 3 just f**** it up even more.


haha the 'it's not a remake of the originals' crew signing in
09:26am 22/12/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9546 posts
I feel what's ruining The Last Jedi more than anything in the movie itself is the d*******s out there in droves intent on whinging non-stop about the movie, and trying to insist to others that it was an all-round bad movie. In most cases this seems to be people who had come up with their own ideas of what should happen, who Snoke should be and his backstory, yada yada, and now that none of what *they* thought should happen did, in the movie, they're just raging on it.

The only real complaint I have about the movie is that due to the change of writer across episodes, there's a few things like it feels like they wanted later fleshed out, but the next writer came along and went "hm, what do I do with this guy? I got nothing. Oh well, blender". ie, there appeared to be a lack of long-term planning for the story.

But other than that, it was a solid movie.

Also, I hated Laura Derns character as much as I hated Michelle Forbes character in Battlestar Galactica.
09:54am 22/12/17 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
186 posts
I liked it. I have a feeling the people who feel betrayed and this killed Star Wars are people who grew up on the prequels and are now experiencing what everyone else felt walking out of The Phantom Menace.
12:54pm 22/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2942 posts
I didn't like it much. I liked the ice/salt crystal fox things they were awesome.

It felt like they made some minor changes to empire strikes back to me. The series is in serious danger of being a remake of the original three.

The fight in snokes room was pretty sweet, though I am inclined to agree that snokes story line needs more work. I had no idea who the dude was (nor any theory) but it felt like he was a poorly executed plot device to resolve the conflict in kylo in favour of the dark side. It just felt like you could see the cogs of the story mechanics turning a little too obviously.

poes storyline can be summed as [insert character development here]

I also felt there were too many jokes. As in obvious comic relief to punctuate the more serious scenes.

With that said, I didn't hate it. It s**** all over the prequels, but let's just stop to reflect where that bar is set for a second.
06:27pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23972 posts
When I saw it I remember thinking to myself, "Well theres no way people could criticise this as being a ripoff of empire like they did back with Force Awakens" and yet, it still happens. Apart from a couple of thematic callbacks here and there, its really nothing like Empire though. If it made no callbacks or nods to the originals it would just be criticised for being too different and not feeling like Star Wars anymore, so its a bit damned if you do and damned if you don't.
07:12pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13738 posts
07:31pm 22/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2943 posts
I had no problem with force awakens I thought it was a great movie.

But I disagree there are only slight thematic nods to Empire in the last jedi.

Rei goes to a distant system to be trained by a jedi master.

The battle in snokes room happens after Rei has only had incomplete training from her master. just like luke and vader.

rei and kylo end up have a strong personal connection they will have to deal with. just like luke and vader. to be clear, I think it is a neat twist on it.

The film ends with the resistance completely f***ed just like empire.

The final act is a replay of hoth.

Finn's interlude is like han and leia going to cloud city/the asteroid worm sequence.

I reckon they lent pretty heavily on empire's important story devices.

I hear you on the too new/not star wars front. I thought the force awakens walked the line really well, but they failed to capitalise on the pressure being taken off by its success.

But I reiterate I don't think it was a bad movie, I just didn't enjoy that much.
07:40pm 22/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23974 posts
Bits of it were definitely remiscent of empire, like the Rey/Luke training bits and how she left before she was ready against her master's advice, or her "go into the cave/hole thats full of dark side nastiness and face yourself" moment, or how the movie opens with the rebels evacuating their base while under attack from the empire/first order, and yeah Krait was a big Hoth homage, but I felt in all those cases while they may have started out like feeling like Empire, they went in different directions I wasn't expecting, so it never really felt like too much of a copy-paste to me. Just felt like they borrowed some of the themes and then put a new spin on things or did something new with it.

The overall structure of the movie was basically built around a big chase and the entire movie took place over only a couple of days at most, it felt like a very personal, focused sort of Star Wars movie to me, like it didn't really feel like the big sprawling adventure that others have and it wasn't so much about huge "fate of the galaxy" stuff, it was just about the fate of these few people. That alone made it feel very different to me.

When the rebels fled Hoth in Empire, it wasn't like that was the whole rebellion, that was just one base, you never got the impression if they fell there that the whole rebellion would be over. Same as the way Empire ended, yeah they were in a dark place but its not like the whole rebellion was threatened, it was just Han in the s*** really. In this one they're literally fleeing for their lives and the First Order is on the verge of entirely wiping them out. Its at the same time a smaller Star Wars story, but with stakes that are MUCH bigger, I liked that mix
02:26am 23/12/17 Permalink
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3417 posts
I think a lot of things "connections" you've found are pretty weak. It's like someone trying to convince themselves that a horoscope actually applied to them for that day.

There are obviously some similarities to other SW movies because this is a f*****' SW movie. Most of the complaints I've read are because people that aren't happy that this wasn't MORE like the other movies, rather than less.

While I felt like TFA was just total fan service, and I know it had to page homage to the other movies in a way as it was the first movie with the original cast in 30 years- I feel like TLJ gave a middle finger to those people who wanted everything explained and laid out on a nice platter and more of our 70+ year old characters. The scale of this story was magnified and personal, and I love the fact that Rei's parents were nobodies. I love that Snoke just died and was literally tossed aside. I love that Luke just tossed the light saber away when Rei greeted him, it was perfect.

Again, I don't think it's the best SW movie, but it's certainly not the worse, and after it all sunk in a bit I enjoyed this far far more than TFA.
06:00am 23/12/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2944 posts
Well, fair enough Khel.

The end of Empire, Lucas himself said he put the characters in the worst possible position. The Rebellion was in bad shape at the end of Empire. I get that this is more desperate, but to me, that feels like trying to ramp up the drama in a fairly clumsy way. If it really is just 40 people left in the whole galaxy there is no coming back from that. The first order will just need the cops, not a huge star fleet.

There are bits of it I liked. Kylo going the opposite way to vader was cool. But it bears more than a passing similarity to Empire to me, and I don't think it's an accident, nor trying to fit a horoscope prediction.

Killing Snoke without fleshing out who he was was dumb. How did he get in Kylo's head? How did Luke know about him?

Important character development points are left completely unanswered to fit in that stupid horse racing s***.

There are obviously some similarities to other SW movies because this is a f*****' SW movie.


Yeah so the complaint isn't that it felt like a star wars movie. The complaint is it felt like the second star wars movie after TFA felt like the first star wars movie. ie they are just remaking the original trilogy.

Anyway, if you enjoyed it so much the better. I thought it was average, for the reasons stated. I'm not trying to convince you.
07:59am 23/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23975 posts
Yeah, I would have liked to know more about Snoke before they snuffed him, considering the mysterious way they built him up. I like the way it played out and I actually like Kylo Ren a lot more in this one than in force awakens, but I was a bit disappointed that they left so many Snok- related threads hanging.

I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, I like it actually. Like it doesn't give an easy Deus ex machina style excuse for her badassness, she's not awesome because she's the daughter of some Jedi master or anything like that, she's just awesome cos she's Rey, that makes her character stronger imo than if she was another Skywalker or Kenobi or whatever.

The only bit of the movie I really didn't like was Leia's Mary Poppins moment, that was painfully cringeworthy :(
12:59pm 23/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7784 posts
On a more important note - I reckon Kylo Ren looks like Marilyn Manson without the emo makeup.
02:34pm 23/12/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
889 posts
I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, I like it actually. Like it doesn't give an easy Deus ex machina style excuse for her badassness, she's not awesome because she's the daughter of some Jedi master or anything like that, she's just awesome cos she's Rey, that makes her character stronger imo than if she was another Skywalker or Kenobi or whatever.
This so much. I really loved this and I hope it continues staying true. The chosen one bulls*** is very frustrating trope that appears in a lot of movies and ruins any connection the viewers have with the character and most of the time just unnecessary. A good example is Guardians of the galaxy, right at the end we're told the Starlord has some magical DNA.

In the case of Star Wars, it fits with the ending. There are many more Jedi out there, you don't need to be special and I think it also means the Jedi can never truly die off. Even without their books, the Jedi can live on. I really liked the scene with Yoda burning the books down, they really mean very little. And Jedi as a religion was the problem. They were too strict.

I also loved Kylo, he made smart choices, like shooting the f*** out of Luke without a hesitation. Laughed hard at that.

Good movie, enjoyed it but it's about 30 minutes too long and had weak writing. I went in there knowing nothing and expecting nothing. Don't get your hopes up because it has flaws.
09:57pm 23/12/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
890 posts
A big question I have: Can someone explain to me WTF the Rebels actually do? I feel like there's a massive disconnect between what happened after Vader/Empire collapsed and the new movies. We have the First Order, which is essentially a bunch of rabid Vader fans. They're not really running anything. What's the current state of the universe government? What are the rebels going to do with 20 people and 1 ship? The universe seems to be running as usual even without the senate/empire.

IMO this is the biggest problem with the new movies. The Rebels are fighting for...something that's not concrete or known. They literally have no allies. Rebels ARE the bad guys.

That s***** line about "The spark that will ignite the...blah blah blah".
10:05pm 23/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23976 posts
Well the galaxy was being run by the new republic, but the first order blew up the republic Homeworld using Starkiller base, so I guess since then they kinda are defacto running things now
04:16am 24/12/17 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3356 posts
Thought it was great, knew there'd be people who dislike it, and also people who would hate it mostly because they had way too many high expectations.
11:34am 24/12/17 Permalink
MrWolf
Gold Coast, Queensland
267 posts
Greazy, check out the Aftermath (trilogy) books to help fill those blanks.
01:53pm 24/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23977 posts
Even though I liked it, I still found this pretty funny

02:41pm 24/12/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7789 posts
12:06am 25/12/17 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23978 posts
R.I.P. Admiral Ackbar
03:39am 25/12/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1117 posts
You're looking at the Mary Poppins scene wrong. Leia didn't use the Force to pull herself to the crusier... She used the Force to pull the cruiser to her! ;)
09:41am 25/12/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21446 posts
I haven't seen it yet but i read some of this thread as most of what said makes no sense to me without seeing it anyway, but i am disappointed snoke was killed with no fleshing out of his background, he had potential to have an epic dark side of the force back ground
06:48am 27/12/17 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12299 posts
I enjoyed it, but there seemed to be a lot of convenient encounters across the universe to make everything come together. Much like the episode VII...but whatever. I sat there and watched it and wasn't inclined to walk out so it wasn't terrible.
03:36pm 30/12/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3342 posts
I enjoyed it, loads of epic moments and cool scenes.

I felt it was too long, defo started feeling like a bit much.

I like how they've taken a new path and tried to do something original, even if that's made all the old fan boys s*** tears.

I didn't love the story, it felt disjointed and like there's no real grand narrative. The director has made some great films tho (Brick, Looper), so I'm happy to see where he goes with it all in the 3rd one.

I did like bits of the story though, notably: The Jedi weren't great. I've always thought they were way too dogmatic and extreme, the so called 'grey' Jedi's seems a more reasonable and centralist approach to me! ;) The notion that the force is available to anyone with force sensitivity and training (egalitarianism), rather than it being a special bloodline / ruling elite only thing (elitism).

Thought this was an interesting read, Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On. His original article from 1999 is worth a read too, if you're interested.
03:44am 04/01/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
891 posts
Well the galaxy was being run by the new republic, but the first order blew up the republic Homeworld using Starkiller base, so I guess since then they kinda are defacto running things now

Ah right, thanks for reminding me. I found the galactic world politics one of the more interesting aspect of star wars. They're really glossing over it :(
Greazy, check out the Aftermath (trilogy) books to help fill those blanks.

No thanks. I wish they'd incorporate it into the movies!
11:22am 05/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21458 posts
A big question I have: Can someone explain to me WTF the Rebels actually do? I feel like there's a massive disconnect between what happened after Vader/Empire collapsed and the new movies. We have the First Order, which is essentially a bunch of rabid Vader fans. They're not really running anything. What's the current state of the universe government? What are the rebels going to do with 20 people and 1 ship? The universe seems to be running as usual even without the senate/empire.


Literally explained in the first paragraph of the text that runs up the screen at the very start of the movie

I just saw it, i thought it was awesome.

The luke skywalker scene at the end where he projects himself, i can see how some might be disappointed it wasn't actually him but for me it was one of the most badass uses of the force i have seen in all the movies and the clone wars anime series.

no more "2 there must be" Sith formula


Not sure why you think that has been discarded just because he killed snoke

I hope more information comes in the next movie about snoke
04:56pm 07/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39402 posts
The luke skywalker scene at the end where he projects himself, i can see how some might be disappointed it wasn't actually him but for me it was one of the most badass uses of the force i have seen in all the movies and the clone wars anime series.
yeh it was cool. Compared to the disappointment of the Yoda super-bouncy-ball fight scene in Ep 2(?) it was awesome.

The best use of the Force in that first trilogy would have been Yoda controlling the lightsaber with the Force with his eyes closed instead of being a Sonic Hedgehog superball stupid thing.
09:45pm 07/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21459 posts
It was ep3 and i didn't mind it purely because it showed he was complete badass with a light sabre. he looks physically useless right throughout every movie until that point but when he needed to fight je could kick some ass. But you are right it could have been done differently.
10:00pm 07/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23981 posts
He did it in ep2 as well, right at the end against dooku, like a mosquito on crack
10:12am 08/01/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
893 posts


Not sure why you think that has been discarded just because he killed snoke

I hope more information comes in the next movie about snoke

The text says very little:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qShkXC1nnVU

Essentially they're over zealous guerrilla fighters who believe in a now extinct religion, with no allies anywhere. nobody wants whatever the f*** they;re selling.
10:24am 08/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12242 posts
Just got back from seeing it. I went in spoiler free except for seeing something about Yoda being in it. I really liked that part and his quirky behaviour reminiscent of Empire.

It had a lot of really cool bits in it, Mark Hamill was great like Harrison Ford was in The Force Awakens. On the one hand I find these to be totally forgettable films compared to the original trilogy, and to be honest, the prequels. There's a lot of style and not much substance, I especially agree with the comments here about the story and motivations of the characters. In the original trilogy everything is very clear and there is a distinct feeling of urgency and fear for the main characters because the stakes are so high and so well explained. Whereas with the new ones it's very much like they just made the movies because they could, rather than to tell an epic story. Here's hoping it all makes sense with the conclusion to the trilogy two years from now.

On the other hand, this is a new generation of Star Wars for a new generation of young people, yet I think it still does justice to the original characters that are featured, for the most part. Luke and Leia were great. I think Disney and Lucasfilm have done a really good job, in the sense that these movies are not totally cringe worthy and are really quite enjoyable. Highlights in this movie for me were Yoda, Luke and Rey, Kylo Ren and Rey, Snoke and Ren and Rey, and the jump to lightspeed smashing Snoke's fleet. That was a drool worthy display of modern graphics and cinematography. What an awesome sequence. Snoke's death and the way things went after that was a surprise too. Snoke could have been a lot scarier, but I thought that part of the story was quite well done.

I don't think Kylo Ren was serious about Rey's parents, it seemed more like he was just trying to make her feel hopeless so she would join the dark side. That was the whole point, he said that her parents didn't care about her but he did. Classic dark side deception.
12:49am 10/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23985 posts
I don't think Kylo Ren was serious about Rey's parents, it seemed more like he was just trying to make her feel hopeless so she would join the dark side.


I think that's just denial :p. When empire came out, people thought Darth Vader was lying too. I got the impression it was for real but who knows what JJ will do in the third one. While I do really enjoy these new movies, it does feel like they're just making it up as they go along instead of having the whole arc planned out in advance. Some bits in Last Jedi just felt like Rian Johnson didn't like some of the characters/events of force awakens so just undid them to suit his own story, so what's to say JJ won't do the same again with the next one
07:46am 10/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21462 posts
the jump to lightspeed smashing Snoke's fleet


that was seriously awesome

Snoke could should have been a lot scarier


i feel like killing off snoke now leaving just kylo did more to remove the bigger picture as people are saying, it is now just kylo vs rei. lots of you have been saying that the movies are more about these few people than the bigger picture of the original and even the prequals. killing him off did nothing to help salvage that bigger picture angle.

and f*** me that could have done so much with him and his sith back story

i also tend to believe kylo wasn't lying about her parents
01:34pm 10/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39407 posts
that was seriously awesome
Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#

Editing Room script for this movie is pretty funny
03:06pm 10/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23986 posts
I don't even care that it doesn't make logical sense cos it looked amazing, and I've wondered for the last 30 years what it would look like if a ship going at Lightspeed collided with something; was not disappointed
04:55pm 10/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21463 posts
Trog was that a joke?
08:04pm 10/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39408 posts
no... did I miss something?
08:47pm 10/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12243 posts
Yeah I might be wrong about Rey's parents because in The Force Awakens Maz Kanata tells Rey that her parents are not coming back. I thought Rey's parents were the overarching plot point of the whole trilogy though!

Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#


This guy shreds the film and highlights that as an issue. I agree with a lot of what he said, but not so much that it ruined the movie for me completely. I could still be in new Star Wars movie euphoria though. I wonder how it will hold up on additional viewings. The Force Awakens is a much better movie from a story point of view.



As a vegan, the not so subtle use of the film to promote animal rights really irked me. This is Star Wars, not a social media campaign to rescue hens. This article talks about all the aspects of The Last Jedi that were focused on animal rights.

The Last Jedi Is Vegan AF. Here's Why...

The film really did seem like it was trying to highlight a lot of issues that concern social justice warriors. I really liked Laura Dern's character Vice Admiral Holdo and that part of the story with Poe and Leia, but I can see why that aspect of the film could piss people off. There seemed to be more focus on those issues in the film than the story itself at some points. As a result it was hard to take The Last Jedi seriously at times.
09:04pm 10/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23987 posts
Holding was the worst admiral ever, there was no reason at all for her to keep her plans secret from her crew, I mean it would have been pretty good for morale I would have thought if she let people know what the plan was instead of letting them all think they were f***ed. That was one of the most contrived parts of the movie for me, everyone's all "yay for strong females in positions of power" but she was f*****g s*** at her job and at leading people sonim not sure it sends the message they wanted it to
10:15pm 10/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39409 posts
the message that the outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies, etc freedom fighter should always kamikaze in the name of freedom from the imperial oppressors?!?!
10:46pm 10/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12244 posts
Yeah I was talking about Poe's mutiny and then being put in his place. Myself and other people in the theater laughed out loud when he was stunned by Leia afterward. There are a lot of alt right videos on YouTube about Laura Dern's character and that story arc, b****ing about female empowerment being taken too far in the film. Like I said, I enjoyed that aspect of the movie, but some people on the internet (angry white males) were incensed by it, which has been interesting to watch develop.
11:25pm 10/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12245 posts

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women
But by and large, The Last Jedi's examination of gender politics does fit into this trilogy's message that the true heirs to the power in this universe are not white men like Hux and Kylo but women and people of color. Though The Last Jedi began filming in early 2016 - in other words, long before a referendum on Donald Trump vs. Hillary Clinton informed every aspect of American storytelling - it's impossible to ignore the parallels on screen here.

The film's progressive ideology is already ticking off some calcified corners of the fandom - the kind of fans who dismissed Ridley's heroic Rey as a too-powerful "Mary Sue" after the last film. But just because some Star Wars lovers are out of reach for the message this movie delivers, there is still hope for a new generation. Just like that kid at the end of The Last Jedi, holding his broom aloft and wearing the resistance jewelry left behind by Rose, an entire generation of young Star Wars watchers will remember the brave, smart, capable women of The Last Jedi - and the consequences of doubting their leadership.

12:07am 11/01/18 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12303 posts
It actually bugged me that there was like 1 black dude in the entire movie. Surely there are more black dudes than that, though I assume they're all wearing storm trooper helmets...
12:30am 11/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23988 posts
The Poe mutiny was dumb, but also entirely unnecessary and could have been completely avoided if Holdo just went "hey, calm down, we've got a plan, we're gonna get close to krait then escape in the shuttles, they're small enough that the empire won't detect them". You know, give people some hope instead of letting them think they were defeated, like an actual, capable leader would.
09:36am 11/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21465 posts
no... did I miss something?


so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/07/07d47b2227f592e9e53bbfe1fea7c0da1192205fb254416b66b1a80d0c25620f.jpg
10:44am 11/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12246 posts
This is a good, seemingly unbiased rant, mostly about the story.

03:07pm 11/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39410 posts
so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....
well they were totally extremely massively cavalier with their ships in the very first scene, to the point where it became a major plot point ("Poe you reckless jerk"). If they could have just sent one of them at light speed into the battleship they wouldn't have wasted the rest of them.

I mean I don't want to go down this thing of poking holes in the movie but randomly adding new stuff into a canon which stretches back 6 movies over 40 years is the kind of thing that should be done a little more carefully, I reckon. I mean the only people that really are complaining about it are those die hard fanboys that for whatever reason are overlooking the travesty of Eps I-III like they could be redeemed by these movies (not possible for me).

So I'm not getting worked up about it and just trying to kick back and enjoy the bits I can.
03:49pm 11/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21467 posts
It was a move made in total desperation by someone who had already chosen to sacrifice herself for literaly last remaining few of the reblion fleeing the ship.

You make it sound like it was a calculated battle move.

I really fail to see how this is some huge loophole in the plot that blows everything apart.

07:41pm 11/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23990 posts
It was super effective though, so I think it's more that it raises the question, why have they never done it before? I mean they could probably even set up ships that are piloted remotely and just Lightspeed them into things, they wouldn't even need to be good ships, even s***** old transports have Lightspeed.

It doesn't bother me personally, but it's a fair point
08:37pm 11/01/18 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4352 posts
it's not made for the fans, the message is made to appeal to the women with kids watching it having never seen any of the history of the other movies so that they will be more likely to buy the merchandise

but oh double up they got the fans on ticket sales too anyway
09:37pm 11/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39412 posts
I really fail to see how this is some huge loophole in the plot that blows everything apart.
It's not a loophole in the plot per se, it's a loophole in the universe of Star Wars. As Khel points out, if they can use the physics of lightspeed attacks to do that, why not do it before in any of the other zillion movies?

You're not supposed to go too deep on Star Wars physics because you quickly run into weird things. But everything else to date is (kinda) at least consistent and this new thing is such a huge, massive physics changer that opens up sooo many questions about why the hell didn't they use it before (like there wasn't ever an X-wing that was desperate enough to go to light speed to take out a Star Destroyer).

Anyway I agree with Khel that the effect was awesome. But I'm going out of my way to suspend my sense of continuity and consistency and I can see why those that cannot (or choose not to) are flying into a frothy nerd rage.
10:22pm 11/01/18 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12304 posts
so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....
Works for the mulims.
Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#
I too wondered this. Apart from the nifty effect it sort of put holes into the earlier movies. Like why not just get a fleet and light speed the f*** out of the death star. Move of them got the s*** blown out of them anyway in the battle. A couple of big ships could just just snapped that f***** in half. But ... they didn't have the digital technology back in the day to achieve the effect so you have to pretend they only just thought about it now :) From this point forward I expect to see many more kamikaze light speed jumps though.
08:34am 12/01/18 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21469 posts
not sure why you think driving a ship into another ship is some brand new facet of physics

but forget the above point about physics, from a realist point of view (when i say realistic, i mean from a star wars rebel character perspective)

there are a few good reasons not to waste their ships flying them into other ships

i seem to have completely missed this lightbulb moment you guys had when watching it, maybe because kamikaze'ing ships as a tactic going back to the originl trilogy seems really stupid to me.

on an unrelated note i loved the scale of Snoke's ship compared to the other star destroyers
08:41am 12/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5670 posts
I dont see how an xwing at light speed could do much damage to a star destroyer.
But it would make sense at the end of ROTJ, where the rebel fleet was blockaded, they could have felt the need to evacuate a cruiser and lightspeed into the deathstar's ray to disable its weapon, or punch a hole through the blockade.
10:19am 12/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39413 posts
i seem to have completely missed this lightbulb moment you guys had when watching it, maybe because kamikaze'ing ships as a tactic going back to the originl trilogy seems really stupid to me.
old trog would have enjoyed arguing about this forever!! but I'm trying not to spend my time convincing other people they shouldn't enjoy things for weird reasons.
on an unrelated note i loved the scale of Snoke's ship compared to the other star destroyers
yeh I was wondering how it compared to the mega destroyer in Jedi. It needs to be added to the starship comparison size chart that compares them all in scale.
11:00am 12/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23993 posts
I dont see how an xwing at light speed could do much damage to a star destroyer.


An X-Wing going at Lightspeed though, still be a f***load of kinetic energy released by that collision, don't think it'd have much trouble wiping out a Star destroyer.

They could have come at the death Star with a bunch of beaten up old transports and Lightspeed rammed them all in there for the win. Hell, its not like it was moving very far or very fast, they probably could have plotted the jump into it from so far away that they were never even seen. It's one of those threads that you shouldn't pull on cos the whole jumper starts to unravel.
04:36pm 12/01/18 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
187 posts
Re: Lightspeed ramming the Death Star, the EU at least had a reason it wasn't feasible - hyperspace contains gravity shadows of bodies with sufficient mass which pull ships out of hyperspace when they get too close, and the Empire had cruisers equipped with generators that could artificially create a field that would do the same. You have to assume that if you're going to pour all those resources into building a planetoid sized weapon you'd defend it with those as well as conventional shields and ship patrols.
08:09pm 12/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39414 posts
Re: Lightspeed ramming the Death Star, the EU at least had a reason it wasn't feasible - hyperspace contains gravity shadows of bodies with sufficient mass which pull ships out of hyperspace when they get too close, and the Empire had cruisers equipped with generators that could artificially create a field that would do the same. You have to assume that if you're going to pour all those resources into building a planetoid sized weapon you'd defend it with those as well as conventional shields and ship patrols.
that is a cool explanation! but I'm a huge story nerd and my attitude is if it doesn't take place in the actual movie, I don't think it counts. It's basically turtles all the way down if you dive too deep so it's better to not ask questions :D
10:31pm 12/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12249 posts
PewDiePie tells it like it is:



This is a really interesting analysis of the scale of the story and characters in the movie:

03:30pm 14/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12250 posts
You know Khel I reckon you are right about Poe's mutiny and Holdo. The more I think about this movie the worse it gets. The movie was not right from the beginning, with Poe disobeying Leia's orders not to take out the Dreadnought and allowing for that whole part of the story with Holdo and Leia putting him in his place. I found it amusing at the time, but it served no purpose whatsoever other than to portray the female characters as superior and was an insult to the Poe character, who was awesome in The Force Awakens.

When Vice Admiral Holdo was first introduced, Poe referred to an act of heroism she had performed in the past, and said that she was not what he expected, implying that he thought she was male. That cliché of men in film thinking that some great person they admire who performed some great deed in the past was a man, and then discovering that it was a woman, has been done to death. Take the 1999 film The Matrix for example, which did it really well and in a way that added to the story:
Trinity: My name's Trinity.
Neo: *The* Trinity? Who cracked the IRS d-base?
Trinity: That was a long time ago.
Neo: Jesus... Trinity: What?
Neo: I just thought... you were a guy.
Trinity: Most guys do.

The reason this is getting to me now is because of what PewDiePie said about Admiral Ackbar. I barely noticed his death in the movie, but was reminded of it by PewDiePie. Ackbar should have been piloting the ship that destroyed Snoke's fleet. Ackbar was a beloved alien character from the original trilogy, and in this movie he only had a cameo and was completely overlooked in favour of this new character, a white person. It was speciesism! He should have at least been her copilot.

But seriously, again it seems like story and characters were ignored so that the director could use this massive franchise solely to highlight current social issues in our culture, which is an insult to Star Wars and to its fans.
07:01pm 14/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12251 posts
Furthermore, the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and Resistance have always been female, from the prequels to the current movies. Padme Amidala, Jyn Erso, Mon Mothma and Leia Organa. These are great, strong characters.
07:07pm 14/01/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39416 posts
^^ so don't you feel your second post totally invalidates your feelings mentioned in the first post?

as is usual; I think people are blowing the male/female thing massively out of proportion.
I found it amusing at the time, but it served no purpose whatsoever other than to portray the female characters as superior
They WERE superior [officers]. It was completely the same as every scene ever in any movie where a superior shouty officer shouts shoutily at their wildcard subordinate who lives on the edge and does what needs to be doing, even when they get shoutenated at all the time.

Also you say "But seriously" like your comment about Ackbar should not be taken seriously but I strongly think it should!!!! Ackbar was a classic part of Star Wars.

It reminds me of the end of Force Awakens when Leia walks past Chewie after Han's death with barely a look (something I've whined about incessantly before). In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.
11:10am 15/01/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9551 posts
In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.


Transformers feels like this. I hope like hell whoever gets the gig directing the ThunderCats and Voltron LAMs is someone who grew up watching them, not someone who had a script thrown across their desk and decided to just do a little bit of research by watching them :/
11:28am 15/01/18 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
188 posts
I believe Ackbar's role was minimized because the voice actor passed away before he recorded his lines for the film.
11:38am 15/01/18 Permalink
Vash
5675 posts
It reminds me of the end of Force Awakens when Leia walks past Chewie after Han's death with barely a look


Yeah i was disappointed at the lack of boob grab too

https://i.imgur.com/6d23Lz5.jpg
01:36pm 15/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12252 posts
trog my recent issue with the Holdo character was that she was introduced to put Poe in his place and then be the selfless hero, when there were already plenty of strong female characters, at the expense of using Ackbar. Like I said, I laughed in the cinema when Leia stunned Poe, that was great. But looking back on it the whole thing with Poe going rogue and then being put in his place was kind of pointless and seemed to only serve to introduce and strengthen the new Holdo character, who we had no reason to care about, especially given how quickly she was killed off.

I meant everything I said about Ackbar. The "but seriously" comment was about my joking reference to speciesism.
I believe Ackbar's role was minimized because the voice actor passed away before he recorded his lines for the film.

Arpey is right, it seems there is no point in worrying about it anyway.
But there may be another reason Ackbar doesn’t have more of a presence in Last Jedi. Erik Bauersfeld, the voice actor who played him, died in April 2016; just two months after The Last Jedi started filming. And given the widespread backlash against resurrecting Peter Cushing’s Grand Moff Tarkin through a CGI stand-in in Rogue One, and Lucasfilm’s promise that it won’t digitally resurrect Carrie Fisher in the same way for Episode IX, the company may not have wanted to disrespect Bauersfeld by instantly replacing him to give Ackbar more screen time.
Getting mad about Admiral Ackbar in The Last Jedi is a trap
01:47pm 15/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
23996 posts
He wouldn't have had to even say anything though, just at least showing him dying would have been an improvement, instead it all happens off screen and we get to hear about it in an offhand comment from another character. He deserved better! #justiceforackbar
01:58pm 15/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12253 posts
Yeah for sure, having him at his post in the background when Holdo was staring off into the distance accepting her fate would have been a moment, and would have added weight to Holdo's character as she died with Ackbar.
04:04pm 15/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12254 posts
In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.


That is absolutely right, it seems they either don't understand what Star Wars is about or don't care. This is a video all about that aspect of the new movies and the lack of a gripping narrative:

05:54pm 15/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12255 posts
This is bloody hilarious (NSFW content):

Smack Talk: The Last Jedi Review
10:08pm 16/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3346 posts
There's so much hyper criticism, hate, sexism and racism imbued in many of these video rants ^^, it's hard to take them seriously. I enjoyed the pitch meeting one though.
12:15am 17/01/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2958 posts
I dont know viper.

PewDiePie didn't seem particularly racist or sexist to me.

And I agree the "comic relief" was done horribly.
The three characters introduced were all meta narrative devices to develop the three main characters. Holder exists for the sole purpose of Poe learning to be less reckless. Which against the contextual background of refusing to tell a ship full of people who are about to die your plan to save them, is more than a little ironic.

Snoke and rose were same.
07:45am 17/01/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3350 posts
Yeah fair enough Pete, I didn't watch PewDiePie's all the way through as I'm not a fan of him personally.

I actually agree with those plot critiques, I just get disengaged when they start spouting thinly veiled sexism (mary sue) or funnelling all their rage into overly vilifying individual people, like the director or that Disney lady.
10:33pm 26/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12256 posts
The director wrote the script single-handedly, with the support of the Disney lady, and was openly criticised repeatedly by The Last Jedi himself. This isn't some random indie movie that no one cares about, this is Star Wars - a dynasty, a movement, a religion for some people. There is a good reason so many people are enraged by where it has gone with the latest episode.
12:08am 27/01/18 Permalink
Khel
Brisbane, Queensland
24002 posts
Is it really worth getting enraged about though? Everyone always seems to be on the lookout for the next thing to be outraged about these days but it all just seems like a ridiculous over-reaction to me. I mean I love Star Wars but it's not some deep and meaningful think-piece, and it's not Shakespeare, it's just cheesy pulp sci-fi, take it for what it is.
12:57pm 27/01/18 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12257 posts
I thought the whole point of the internet was so that people can rant about pop culture!
10:33pm 27/01/18 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
189 posts
FYI the term 'Mary Sue' is not inherently sexist. It stems from an early internet/BBS Star Trek fan fiction about the author's self-insert (named Mary Sue) who was perfect and loved by all the other characters and had no flaws. It came to be used for characters of that type among nerd fandoms, especially Star Trek, and also widely among the tabletop RPG community as a disparaging term for shallow, one-dimensional characters who can solve every problem themselves. Mary Sue is used for both male and female characters of this type, though Gary Stu is occasionally used as a male equivalent.

With regards to Rey being a Mary Sue, I don't see it. I used to think she was a bit too competent until I listened to a podcast where they were discussing The Force Awakens and somebody pointed out that the first time Rey tries to do a lot of things (mind-trick the stormtrooper, shoot a blaster, etc.) she fails, and only upon trying again does she get it right. To me this says that the Force is influencing her actions.
01:04pm 28/01/18 Permalink
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