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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
Vash
5201 posts
It's funny because going by that, people must think that being a racist, a bigot, or a homophobe identifies with communism. It's actually the complete opposite.
That identifies with the far-right of the spectrum, if you've been paying attention to the things the the far-right say, that is (you probably haven't)

Considering everything you've learned PP is spewed from the propaganda machine, i think you've just described yourself perfectly.
07:53pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2416 posts
it is enjoyable that your icon is a dude being punched in the face.

It's funny because going by that, people must think that being a racist, a bigot, or a homophobe identifies with communism.


no it just means don't be any of those things. but plain english was never your strong suit darling.

tell me more about how owning 700 billion dollars is a socialist act.
08:01pm 02/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5202 posts
So, firstly, i never said America was socialist. I never said Apple was socialist. I simply said, Amercia was more Socialist than the USSR.
Here comes PP with trying the gotchas! You're a buffoon mate.
08:07pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2417 posts
Yep America by aggressively and openly and constitutionally not embracing socialism is more socialist than the opposite of that.

I'm not your mate. I am concerned for your well-being.

still no citation to something chomsky wrote. the linguist who has never held an academic political science position. that guy who knows more about marxism than marx.
08:38pm 02/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2034 posts
Chomsky hates authority mate.

09:52pm 02/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5203 posts
Oh yes, anyone who chants something they're against surely has no characteristics of said thing they are against. Nup never happens. You're being naive.

Doesn't matter what i post, PP. You'll perform all kinds of mental gymnastics. Got better things to do.
09:54pm 02/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2418 posts
by Mental gymnastics you mean pointing out that workers owning businesses making the US more socialist than the USSR is dumb because that plainly includes the board of goldman sachs as [evidence the US was] more socialist than the USSR. A state founded on the principles of das kapital. I'm "twisting" your words by quoting them verbatim.

you have still provided no evidence Chomsky said what you claim. But even if you did it would mean an award wining linguist is wrong about the nature of socialism. Chomsky has been singing the same tune since the 60s. The US is an aggressive imperialist state, by any reasonable definition of imperialist the US is not an empire. He is wrong.

Yes one of is doing mental gymnastics. Lets see if you can stick the landing you insufferable moron.
10:44am 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2419 posts
urgh the final words in that video.

"The idea that you can be paid to build something and not own it is an attack on human dignity."

Asking a builder to build my house for money is an attack on his human dignity. I just thought I was asking him to sell his services to me, but actually by failing to assign title to him at the end I was really saying he was less than human. Who knew right?
11:22am 03/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12688 posts
The person who wants the house built has Capital to invest.
He invests it in the Builder who builds the Home.

If that person chooses not to have the house built, the Builder has no job.
Someones ability to build something is a form of Capital.
The Builder no more owns the Home than the Homweowner owes the Builders business.

Its the free exchange that makes Capitalism unbeatable.
Unfortunately Government likes to take a cut of everything and regulations complicates the process to the extent that sometimes it prevents that free exchange taking place because the Builder or the Homeowner dont see enough profit to bother doing it.

When the Wealthy dont think its worthwhile spending then the mechanics of the Economy slow down.



01:06pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9407 posts
"The idea that you can be paid to build something and not own it is an attack on human dignity."


What total bulls***. Following this kind of mentality is so bats*** insane that it would mean that when I go to Subway, the guy who made it still owns it. It would mean that I can't design an electronic circuit without physically creating all the ICs, resistors and capacitors I need for it myself, butfirst I have to mine the ore and melt it down to wire myself. That's how stupid this quote is.

We pay others to do things on our behalf because we are time poor.
01:24pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2420 posts
Chomsky said it though raven. Chomsky.

it is literally impossible he got it wrong. he is a "never worked at a university in this capacity" political scientist.

Its science.

you're wrong. And moreover the fact you think you have (you haven't because its science) detected a fault in his reasoning is the propaganda making you do mental gymnastics.
01:42pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5204 posts
Nah it isn't bulls***. We're conditioned to think its completely normal to sell yourself and work your entire life. Society convinces you this is OK & Normal.
We are time poor because of Capitalism. You want to make something under Socialism? Do it. You can be an artist and not risk losing everything for that career choice.
Why do people hate mondays? they actually hate Capitalism.
02:19pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2421 posts
Yeah its total bulls***.
03:30pm 03/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21218 posts
legit cray
03:43pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9408 posts
Capitalism or not, I'm certain someone has something I'm willing to provide for them in exchange for providing me carrots, which I cbf growing myself. According to that quote, I shouldn't own those carrots. F*** that quote :)
04:17pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5205 posts

He means private ownership vs belongings, two completely different things, especially when it comes to housing.
Housing is rapidly becoming something people profit from rather than the purpose of housing people.
Of course this is seen as normal because we're conditioned to believe that. It's lunacy to have something as necessary for survival as housing as a bargaining chip for investors.
And now Government is in so deep in the ponzi scheme the bubble will pop, and many people will go bankrupt.

Socialism means you have a house, you live in it, it is a part of your belongings & not owned by Government. (Housing in the USSR was owned by Government) and you cant buy other houses & profit from people living in them because that would be rude.

When it comes to subway & carrots, he's not saying there is no trade. People can be self sufficient for their food requirements. Automation will eventually handle the rest.

If you want to learn more on the subject though, Chomsky Philosophy channel is pretty good. I'm still learning myself.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHuLYgw4dGbC2BuZQqPWV1g


04:35pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2422 posts
Housing in the USSR was not owned by anyone you dolt.

They didn't believe in property.

It really is an all new level of insanity you bring to this thread.

Chomsky is flat out wrong.
04:39pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5207 posts
Breaking away from the norm you'll always be labelled insane, means i'm on the right track ;)
Intellectuals say we should fear Capitalism, they're just bats*** insane arent they? Lol.
04:44pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2423 posts
Chomsky says it not "intellectuals".

you are not a misunderstood genius. You are a powerfully ill-informed moron.
04:45pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5208 posts
Chomsky says it not "intellectuals".

you are not a misunderstood genius. You are a powerfully ill-informed moron.


I'm no genius. I just have enough common sense to listen to very intelligent people instead of very dumb people like you and people on the far-right.
04:47pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2424 posts
haha. Funny really.

you like to listen to people who say paying someone to work is an attack on their human dignity. pointing out that this is bats*** insane makes me "far-right". you're a crazy person.

I think I've changed my mind, your icon isn't you getting punched in the face. Its you smashing your face against a glove attached to the wall.
04:53pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5209 posts

I never said you were far-right. You've just proven again how dumb you are.

I also like to listen to Stephen Hawking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/stephen-hawking-capitalism-robots_us_5616c20ce4b0dbb8000d9f15

Stephen Hawking Says We Should Really Be Scared Of Capitalism, Not Robots


Is he dumb and insane, PP?

Also, my avatar is a photo of Tony Abbott being punched. If you have a photo of you being punched i'd like to put it up.


05:00pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2425 posts
oh quick refer to a paragraph from a reddit thread.

Gee the argument is over.

You sure showed me. Moron.

Also, my avatar is a photo of Tony Abbott being punched


No its you bashing your own face against a stationary fist.
05:02pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5210 posts
Er yeah, cos Stephen hawking posted to reddit. Suddenly reddit makes it meaningless? You're a weird fella.
05:11pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2426 posts
er because stephen hawking didn't refute capitalism in 100 words on reddit where the explicit topic is what happens in a world were human labour is entirely unnecessary.

Dumby. There is a reason the appeal to authority is a rhetorical fallacy.
05:24pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5211 posts
So perhaps you should take what they're saying seriously if you don't want the world to turn into a dystopian nightmare, that is.
05:34pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2427 posts
Yeah ok drama queen.
05:37pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25784 posts
It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth. What makes you think we're not next? All the pieces are in play for it to happen, and with Trump elected, white just made its first move.
05:42pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5212 posts
It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth. What makes you think we're not next? All the pieces are in play for it to happen, and with Trump elected, white just made its first move.


True, Capitalism just allows a very small amount of people to live unsustainably comfortable while the majority of the world suffers. Hooray. Now Trump wants to make that super comfy pool even smaller.
05:48pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2428 posts
It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth.


What does that even mean fpot?

What has happened here is Vash has been shown to have radically misunderstood what he was talking about *again* and is now engaging in his usual rhetorical technique of he just cares about the planet.

The other gem he loves is citing scientists as authorities on political issues, when it is either inappropriate or simply does not do the mental labour he needs it to.

The world is a dystopian nightmare because robots have made human labour a thing of the past for exactly zero people.
05:48pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5213 posts
The world is a dystopian nightmare because robots have made human labour a thing of the past for exactly zero people.


Could you say anything more dumb?
05:51pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2429 posts
have robots made human labour a thing of the past? its a factual statement numb nuts.
05:53pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5214 posts
exactly zero people.


Factually incorrect statement, many people's jobs have been replaced by automation already. In China's manufacturing robots are rapidly being expanded, for one example.
And the job losses are going to come in waves as the technology expands.
05:55pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25785 posts
I don't really wish to partake in the robot discussion. All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it, and the notion that someone is a drama queen for suggesting we're next is silly because in reality it is more or less inevitable. At this stage all we can do is delay it and hopefully make it less of a dystopian nightmare.
05:56pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2430 posts
Is there still a need for human labour?

because if so, those people have not lost their job because human labour is now totally unnecessary. Which means hawking's comment has been decontextualized.

you are also now fellating the Luddite fallacy.
05:58pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5215 posts
Well in that case, Hawking is also fellating the Luddite fallacy. It seems to be an easily disprovable fallacy though, considering how much technology is capable of.
06:12pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2431 posts
All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it,


What does this even mean fpot? specifically how is it a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the human race. That seems to me to be a very radical statement.

Well in that case, Hawking is also fellating the Luddite fallacy. It seems to be an easily disprovable fallacy though, considering how much technology is capable of.


No he isn't, he is specifically talking about a hypothetical future situation which you are now treating as an inevitability which is far from the case.

get on your bike disproving the luddite fallacy then dumby. if its so easy. Let me give you a hint. Saying "technology is capable of so much" doesn't do it.
06:16pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5216 posts
Alittle bit of thinking and you can do it yourself, PP. Look at what's in development and what scientists are saying are a matter of time on what robots can do, and you'll get there.
06:20pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2432 posts
so you can't then vash.

well colour me surprised.
06:22pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3234 posts

As compelling as some of Chomsky's ideas initially are, and some of them like the idea of manufacturing consent in a democracy have a lot of truth in them I think, there's a reason he's widely discredited. So he's not really the bastion of academic authority you think him to be, Vash.

Presumably fpot is referring to the fact that most people on Earth don't have the same living standards as us jolly first worlders?


Nearly 1/2 of the world's population, more than 3 billion people, live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty, less than $1.25 a day.

1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.

805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat.

More than 750 million people lack adequate access to clean drinking water. Diarrhea caused by inadequate drinking water, sanitation, and hand hygiene kills an estimated 842,000 people every year globally, or approximately 2,300 people per day.

1/4 of all humans live without electricity, approximately 1.6 billion people.

80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.

Oxfam estimates that it would take $60 billion annually to end extreme global poverty--that's less than 1/4 the income of the top 100 richest billionaires.
https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty

That is a bit of a dystopian nightmare for those people, no?

Interested as to why most experts don't think we'll eventually get to Strong AI, trog?
08:11pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2433 posts
Well now wait on.

People live in Australia in poverty. does that mean Australia is a "dystopian nightmare"? cause I think rather plainly it isn't.

Poverty is awful, but the idea Australia is headed to a sub-Saharan standard of living is a little over the top you'd surely agree.
09:17pm 03/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25786 posts
I guess there's differences between living in poverty in Australia and living in poverty in the third world. If you're homeless or poor in Australia and walk into a hospital dying or gravely ill you'll be treated. If you're assaulted and you walk into a police station it will be investigated. Those two things, among others, wouldn't be available to many people living in poverty in the third world where medical care is not as available and governments and the police are extremely corrupt.

When you narrow it down some it no longer becomes the majority but rather a significant percentage that makes up at least hundreds of millions of people. End-game capitalism, which is surely in the same sort of time frame as the widespread use robotic automation, will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.
09:33pm 03/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5217 posts
there's a reason he's widely discredited. So he's not really the bastion of academic authority you think him to be, Vash.


Would love to see where & who discredits him. I haven't seen this anywhere, as yet. He's widely known as a left intellectual, many people listen to his ideas, and plenty have attempted to debate him in the past, losing horribly.
11:26pm 03/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2434 posts
Thats because you're dumb vash and think statements like paying people to work is an attack on their human dignity isn't self discrediting.

will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.


Ok so let me see if I follow you.

every technological advance in the history of the world has been a net benefit for the poor, so odds on for advance robotics are we will all have even more comfortable lives. Captialism just raised 1 billion people in china and south east asia over the last 20 years out of extreme poverty.

but because trump got elected there is a real risk that within the next 4 to 8 years, wide spread cannibalism due to extreme poverty will become a reality in Australia?

you don't have to call that being a drama queen. but its not inaccurate.
07:04am 04/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25787 posts
You have a real problem with taking things that aren't meant to be taken literally, literally. It's borne from you being really pedantic, which is okay, except your own posts are usually full of the same exaggerations and hyperbole others use and that you delight on calling them out on. Which would also be okay, if it was being used ironically, which it isn't.

It makes you really insufferable to discuss things with. You may have noticed on here, and dare I say real life, that people sometimes simply ignore what you say or just give it a cautionary nod. I am pretty sure you realise why, but just be careful never to think it's because what you're saying is especially profound and that people are shy to reply or anything like that.

But hey, I kind of like you, so I'll say no, widespread cannibalism isn't a real possibility in the next four to eight years (you literally just imagined those numbers in your own head btw) and that I was simply saying that when society reaches its end game and resources are scarce and everyone hates refugees and different coloured people we're more f***ed than we're going to be then if we actually took steps to unf*** ourselves, and that it may be too late to unf*** ourselves and now that Trump is elected we're going to lose four maybe eight years of time that could be spent preparing and instead dig the hole a little deeper.
03:10pm 04/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21220 posts
You have a real problem with taking things that aren't meant to be taken literally, literally. It's borne from you being really pedantic,


If i remember correctly pornopete was studying / is probably finished a law degree and is a lawyer

So you are arguing with someone who is paid to argue in general / knit pick points to suit their argument
06:59pm 04/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2437 posts
suit their argument,
that's unfair paveway. ;)



Let me rephrase fpot

four to eight years being the constitutionally enshrined terms trump can possibly serve, you believe he will set in motion, a series of events that will make widespread poverty in australia (as understood in places much poorer that australia) or insert the meaning of "dystopian nightmare" here.

Is that a fair assessment? because if you mean in 200 years Australia will be f***ed I can assure you are wasting your time thinking about it. You are probably wasting your time thinking about if you mean 50 years in the future. needless to say I consider the moniker drama queen is appropriate.

Like you too.
07:11pm 04/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5221 posts
Well he certainly is bad at nit picking arguments if his posts are anything to go by. Hope the career goes well PP!
07:18pm 04/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21221 posts
I have been watching you all gnash your teeth arguing with porno

To him you are just practice

This thread reminds me of this:

https://youtu.be/5_3Tu32OUSs
07:27pm 04/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5222 posts
Interesting perspective, pave. But from my view every post of PP's is to appear intellectual but with no substance behind it and plenty of flustering.
07:31pm 04/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21222 posts
I am not taking either side

Though i think it is pretty rich coming from you how much you talk communism and communist ideology yet can't really bring any substance from the famous communist texts around that PP clearly has a whole lot more knowledge about than you.

I am talking purely from the point of view of arguing.
08:42pm 04/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5223 posts
Well you haven't been paying attention in that case, pave. This forum isn't the place to discuss those topics it seems, it gets too emotional for some people.. You know, the f*** off commie kinda stuff.
08:53pm 04/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2439 posts
But from my view every post of PP's is to appear intellectual but with no substance behind it and plenty of flustering.


Practically guarantees I have a god level intellect Vash.
09:42pm 04/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3237 posts
Yeah I figured Pete to be quite the debater fairly early on so was less inclined to go too deep with him after that! However I also find he generally raises rather good points and makes interesting arguments that give me pause to reconsider or expand my views, which I always appreciate. The only thing I'm not a fan of is going heavy on attacking the person instead of the argument, although it's kinda understandable with Vash ;)

That's some pretty spectacular self-delusion you've got going on there Vas** :o

Pete's posts are pretty much all substance (sans the personal attacks) which I'll defo agree is disconcerting for any preexisting views you had that are being challenged.
10:46pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38846 posts
knit pick
nitpick :D
11:07pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38847 posts
This article randomly popped up on Twitter & I thought it was interesting (& funny; the rest of the blog is pretty entertaining too): The 20th Century, Now in Reruns:
If America had an intelligent upper class, they would have looked at all this and thought: Holy crap we're lucky we got out of the 20th Century alive. We must at all costs avoid making those mistakes again.

Instead, the actual American upper class—with no more Harrimans with a living memory of the Depression and World War II—looked at it and thought: Let's make EVERY SINGLE MISTAKE AGAIN.

That's what's happening right now. Rather than understanding that the problem of the 20th Century was the refusal of capitalism to compromise with human beings, they think the problem of the 20th Century was the few compromises capitalism did make. In fact, even the European upper classes seem to have now forgotten what their grandparents learned via the most direct experience possible.

So they're getting rid of the compromises as quickly as they can. Their goal is apparently to rewind the clock to 1900, add resource wars and incipient environmental catastrophe, and see if history turns out differently this time.
It has something for everyone in it, it s**** on communism AND capitalism!

edit: writer is a former Daily Show writer I believe.
11:14pm 04/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12694 posts
If you set rules on how people should address you, you will never hear the Truth.

Sausage Gate
This is an Outrage !


11:20pm 04/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38848 posts
Wait. Was it a pork sausage?! Is he a secrat mulim like Obama?!
11:56pm 04/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5225 posts
The only thing I'm not a fan of is going heavy on attacking the person instead of the argument, although it's kinda understandable with Vash


Are we reading the same posts? The ones where PP's attacking the character of people rather than the argument? I think you should read the last page or two.
Pretty much disproven all his crap on Socialism & Communism, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society so i don't expect people to know anything about it :) carry on then.
12:38am 05/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3238 posts
Yeah I have read it all, by which I mean I understand why Pete has slowly but surely descended into attacking the character. You cray Vas** ;)

That SkyNews video is ridonkulous, this is why we can't have nice things.

That article is great trog, nice one.
01:09am 05/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2440 posts
Pretty much disproven all his crap on Socialism & Communism, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society so i don't expect people to know anything about it


Naw bless.

07:52am 05/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12696 posts
Wait. Was it a pork sausage?! Is he a secrat mulim like Obama?!


I didnt even think of that, Id better tell FaceDad.
If I was Racist/Bigoted wouldnt that be something I would think of straight away?

I thought it was insulting to Australians to not eat a sausage sanger/sizzle when it was offered. Australias Culture revolves around celebrations. At around 200 years of White settlement and lots of migration we dont really have that 1000 year old Cultural history of other Nations.

Yes Aboriginals do but for a variety of reasons that has not become part of what we are today. Even though it is continually pushed on to us via cringe-worthy ceremonies at special events. Nobody is doing Aboriginal cultural things at home down on Struggle St or Rooty Hill.

But they sure do love their BBQs and the Sausage Sizzles on Election days.
We really are a unique Nation.

01:13pm 05/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38850 posts
I thought it was insulting to Australians to not eat a sausage sanger/sizzle when it was offered.
well I have some good news for you: it's not
06:05pm 05/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38854 posts
More good news for Australia (& the rest of the world): conferences jumping ship from the US and moving overseas. This has come up a few times recently about some big name conferences relocating to Canada.

With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.
06:35pm 05/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2036 posts
With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.


That's interesting. I heard about a friend of a friend who has an Aussie passport but was born in the UK so he had a passport when he was like 10 or something.

The US check point form wanted the number of the previous passport which obviously he didn't have. This then meant it went to some other extra vetting process. They ended up cancelling the trip to hawaii and just going to Fiji because the checking process was going to take 72+ hours and it was cutting it fine for their departure date.
09:38am 06/04/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9410 posts
With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.

Yeah, I've been planning on going to the US for JavaOne, but what respectable IT employee is going to hand over passwords to the US Government just to go to a conference?
11:01am 06/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38859 posts
The absolute best thing you can do is not go. Forcing the conference to deal with low attendees will make them change locations. If they change to Australia we win. You can then consider yourself a soldier in ECONOMIC WARFARE, the best warfare!
06:31pm 06/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7609 posts
11:16pm 06/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2038 posts

Lel
https://twitter.com/PRESlDENTBANNON/status/850072144721661952

1. Say you won't go to war if elected
2. Get elected
3. Tell Syrian dictator he can stay
4. Watch dictator gas people
5. Go to war

Winning


06:44am 07/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5226 posts
03:06pm 07/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2444 posts

Lel
https://twitter.com/PRESlDENTBANNON/status/850072144721661952

1. Say you won't go to war if elected
2. Get elected
3. Tell Syrian dictator he can stay
4. Watch dictator gas people
5. Go to war

Winning


That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.
03:21pm 07/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3239 posts

Yeow, that's a bit rich I think, Pete. The hypocrisy is strong, and I'm not sure the supposed inherent good of destroying chemical weapons overrules that.

I'll just leave this here:

Majority Of Republicans Voted 'No' When Obama Wanted To Launch A Strike On Syria

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/entry/republicans-strike-syria-trump_us_58e6f71de4b051b9a9da355d

In 2013, when a sarin nerve gas attack left more than 1,400 dead outside Damascus, President Barack Obama went to Congress to get approval to strike.

In a vote, 183 Republicans voted against bombing the country. Only 12 Republicans, including then-House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), voted with the president to launch a strike. Ultimately, Congress did not approve the strike, with 243 Congressional members voting against it.

In the past, Trump appeared as an anti-interventionist, criticizing Obama's choice to use force in Syria. But Trump declined to seek Congressional approval before launching Thursday's attack.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2rfa2p5.png

Link: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/373146637184401408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


04:03pm 07/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5227 posts
It should always be pointed out when leaders say something critical of their opponents and then do that exact thing. The credibility of our leaders should be important.
04:32pm 07/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2445 posts
Lets take it as read trump is hypocritical.

Maybe that isn't what I'm talking about.

wouldn't want to let trump set the standard of political discourse after all old bean.
04:35pm 07/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2446 posts
Majority Of Republicans Voted 'No' When Obama Wanted To Launch A Strike On Syria


Here is a slightly more comprehensive history of the 2013 red line

the idea that Obama wanted to do more but was blocked by an obstructionist congress is simply untrue. Obama got in to fights with successive secretaries of state not to get involved in Syria.

You should avoid huffpo.
12:44pm 09/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12702 posts
Sausage Gate has taken a disturbing turn...

For NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian, the much-loved election-day sausage snag seems to go better without the slice of white bread. The premier raised eyebrows after being snapped eating a democracy sausage sans bread while campaigning at a polling booth in Manly during Saturday's by-elections.

Opposition leader Luke Foley was quick to comment on the gluten-free choice. "Unlike Gladys, I prefer my sausage sandwich with bread," the Labor leader tweeted, along with a picture of him chowing down on a sandwich outside a Gosford polling booth.

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/berejiklian-opts-for-nobread-sausage-snag/news-story/da18e1c1176d885dc2aa0ff121aa780c

Out of touch with real Australian values.


01:02pm 09/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5228 posts

Classic right-wingers. Polls looking poor? Time to ramp up military & terrorism rhetoric!

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-navy-strike-group-sails-toward-korean-peninsula-as-nuclear-tensions-rise-20170409-gvh14q.html


05:01pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2447 posts
what do you mean vash.

link that article to that statement.

or are you going to apply your "socialist" reasoning.

because Trump really has to worry about the polls 100 days into a 4 year tenure with a super majority.
05:18pm 09/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21226 posts
Facey still outraged about a sausage that no one else gives a s*** about

Maybe she is glutten intolerant or maybe she is ceciac.

Grow the f*** up
06:40pm 09/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38872 posts
If you don't read news.com.au you don't know what to be enraged about - it's very liberating
06:50pm 09/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5229 posts
same with theaustralian.com.au
But somehow i still find myself heading back there when i need to be reminded how stupid humans can be.

Noticed recently how much they're cheerleading that anti islam chick. About the only time conservatives will pay attention to a refugee in a positive light. kek
06:54pm 09/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25795 posts
newsdotcomdotau is the dumb c*** who at least knows they're a dumb c*** so it's not too embarrassing. theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.
07:21pm 09/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2041 posts
07:46pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2448 posts
what I find so enjoyable about vash is he uses kek now and when 1400 people have been killed by sarin gas.

I just really enjoy how he and redhat were worried about the tone of political debate would fall if trump got in. (though it seems some piggies are more than a little accustomed to the mud eh)

It really is glorious how little self awareness is involved.

so how about those swedes hey, last night. <---- do you get it?

If only they'd been involved in less wars in the last 200 years and been less Islamophobic. wonder what that "anti islam womans" view might be on the subject.

see what I did there viper?

theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.


the guardian is for the dumb c*** who likes to wank with that shameful s***.
09:25pm 09/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25796 posts
The guardian is undeniably a left leaning publication. The Australian is bona fide right wing propoganda trash. It's foolish to compare them. Perhaps huffpost would make a more apt comparison but I'm going by reputation only as I don't really read huffpost at all.
09:52pm 09/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2449 posts
Dude the guardian is at least as bad as the Australian.

You need a serious reality check if you think otherwise.

they are so far up their own confirmation bias hole, they published this confirmed hoax article. If you think they aren't telling you what you want to hear you are sorely mistaken.
10:01pm 09/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5230 posts
eh, its an opinion piece. Sounds about right too, as i've seen it happen myself. Millennials love their memes, and the alt right movement seem good at it. "kek"
10:27pm 09/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3241 posts
I'm afraid I don't, maybe I'm just not self aware enough or following the thread that closely, please enlighten me kind sir.

On Syria, isn't that conflating two separate things? 1) Majority of Republicans voting no to Obama's airstrikes in response to chemical weapon use, 2) Obama's general intent to not get involved in Syria. I accept the point about Obama's general failings in foreign policy and not wanting to do more in Syria on the whole. That doesn't change the fact he did try to do an airstrike retaliation for the chemical weapon use, even though it was reluctant, which was voted down by Republicans, so the hypocrisy point re: Trump's recent action holds I think.

If we're decrying all these news outlets as s***rolls, please pray tell what bastions of insightful truth you read? (Though I'm not defending news.com.au or huffpost)
01:39am 10/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2450 posts
Sounds about right too, as I've seen it happen myself.

You are familiar with the concept of a hoax. the fact you agree with it is proof positive of confirmation bias. the point of the exercise was to see if they would publish an article which appealed to his perception of their biases and the Guardian dutifully obliged.

I'm afraid I don't, maybe I'm just not self aware enough or following the thread that closely, please enlighten me kind sir.


*edit*FWIW I specifically excluded you from that sentence*/edit*

You cannot simultaneously say trump is a fine purveyor hate speech *edit* and this will destroy democracy as we know it */edit*, and then be all "lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed". but seeing as we want to play that game apparently lol trump was totally right about Sweden. Guess the Swedish government should have spent more time posing for photo opps in hijabs hey?


On Syria, isn't that conflating two separate things? 1) Majority of Republicans voting no to Obama's airstrikes in response to chemical weapon use, 2) Obama's general intent to not get involved in Syria.


I disagree that is a conflation. for a start he took it to congress only after he was having doubts about going through with it, that is very clear from the Atlantic article. If you were to come to me with a proposition to bomb another country but you didn't really want to do it, I'd vote exactly the same way.

It does not mean that Trump's tweet is un-hypocritical, but make no mistake that strike is in keeping with broader American foreign policy since at least 1991.

If you want my cynical reading of it, politically it plays well for two reasons. 1) there is now an actual red line. 2) it is now difficult to argue he is Putin's man. there is no way to cut it that this is good for Putin's plans in Syria. and as for the hypocritical nature of it, he can always point to the fact that Assad is using chemical weapons on his own people, and say, I'll be a hypocrite and do something when children are gassed. It's going to be difficult to credibly take him to task on it.

If we're decrying all these news outlets as s***rolls, please pray tell what bastions of insightful truth you read?


I don't read a single one anymore, because you can't. For stuff like this Syrian strike I go to as many as I can, and then try to extract a coherent whole. Generally, the NYtimes and the AFR strike me as pretty good. TBH the Australian's legal section is actually pretty good. I still trust the ABC and the BBC, though the BBC less so these days.

Journalism in general seems to have been poisoned by a hoard of millennial bloggers who know a lot about Foucault (well at least have read a lot) and how to push a narrative and virtually nothing else.
08:55am 10/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3242 posts
You cannot simultaneously say trump is a fine purveyor hate speech *edit* and this will destroy democracy as we know it */edit*, and then be all "lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed". but seeing as we want to play that game apparently lol trump was totally right about Sweden. Guess the Swedish government should have spent more time posing for photo opps in hijabs hey?


What you talking bout willis!? I don't think I've been towing those lines to that degree at all tbh, are you confusing me with someone else? Please point out where I was all 'this will destroy democracy' or 'lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed'.

I see your point, however it's still pretty poor imo, or perhaps that's just how politics is now. There were Republicans demanding Obama go to congress first as it's an act of war who have now supported Trump striking unilaterally without congressional approval.

Yeah that's generally what I do. I've found Vox to be pretty good at trying to do a impartial fact based assessment these days.
04:14pm 10/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2452 posts
What you talking bout willis!? I don't think I've been towing those lines to that degree at all tbh


I never said you did. but it is what I am getting at with this line.

That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.


Which you appeared to confuse with endorsing the strike.

There were Republicans demanding Obama go to congress first as it's an act of war who have now supported Trump striking unilaterally without congressional approval.


I have little doubt there were, and as I have said not seeking congressional approval is hypocritical for Trump at least. However, I see an important difference between that and house republicans not voting for a plan the president was clearly second guessing, and being ok with this.

and moreover, you will be able to find democrats calling this unilateralism an assault democracy who happily oversaw Obama's dramatic expansion of the drone program.

It is never the less not good that we appear to be heading toward intervention. I would much rather stay out.
05:48pm 10/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3243 posts
Ahh you kinda did, though I get what you're extrapolating to now, so okay. Though I obvs find it rather disagreeable. That's defo not been my meaning on those posts.

From my perspective, I questioned whether political point scoring is a valid criticism, whether destroying chemical weapons is inherently good, and made the point that the hypocrisy is really apparent.

That all ties into the sentiment of the larger political point at hand I think. I sort of agree with the scoring political points thing, but then at the same time, isn't everything political now? Especially anything geopolitical related? To strike or not in Syria, to attack North Korea over their missiles or not, to stop China dominating the South China Sea? Where do you draw the line?

Yeah for sure, it's also the democrats, I guess it's just depressing to see the politics so obviously partisan.

I am also not a fan interventionism really.
09:09pm 10/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7612 posts
Syria.. the new Vietnam
07:23am 11/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2453 posts
From my perspective, I questioned whether political point scoring is a valid criticism, whether destroying chemical weapons is inherently good, and made the point that the hypocrisy is really apparent.


Appreciated, however what I was attempting to point out, poorly it would seem, is that sir redhat and vash are both balls deep in the political correctness is a good thing and trump is bad for disregarding it.

It seems to me if we need to be sensitive to feels, specially to our Islamic chums, taking the attitude "lol trump won't tolerate a bunch of them (including children) being gassed" is somewhat problematic.
09:26am 12/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25799 posts
Sean Spicer 'not even Hitler used chemical weapons' lol
02:34pm 12/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38877 posts
Rent don't buy, losers!

Also are they seriously talking about letting people use their super to buy houses with?!

I like the idea of encouraging people to move regionally through incentives but not sure how well it will work. Better transport options out to smaller towns I think would make a big difference. Bring on the high speed rail amirite?
04:58pm 12/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3245 posts

Oh I see, I misconstrued that point as being about me, my bad cuz!

Yeah I agree on the pc and 'regressive left' thing, I don't think it's helping at all and it is of questionable validity in many areas. People are never persuaded through ridicule, condescension or condemnation - which seems to be the primary tactic of the far left these days.

I thought this was interesting: http://warisboring.com/how-will-russia-respond-to-trumps-tomahawk-strike/

I read somewhere but can't find it now, that the Syrians evacuated the air base just before the strike, and planes are flying from it post strike. So maybe it was more of a signal to China re: North Korea than anything else.


09:20pm 12/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5232 posts
ridicule, condescension or condemnation - which seems to be the primary tactic of the far left these days.


Unfortunately that's the only option left when facts & logic doesn't cut it.
10:02pm 12/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7613 posts
Rent don't buy, losers!

Also are they seriously talking about letting people use their super to buy houses with?!

I like the idea of encouraging people to move regionally through incentives but not sure how well it will work. Better transport options out to smaller towns I think would make a big difference. Bring on the high speed rail amirite?


Can't do that bro, that would make too much sense. We can't have the pollies investment properties going down in value.

P.S Xenophon has 8 investment properties
07:14am 13/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2454 posts
Unfortunately that's the only option left when facts & logic doesn't cut it.


It's adorable you think you've ever posted anything approximating either.
07:28am 13/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5233 posts

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/apr/12/cormann-stares-down-one-nations-demand-to-cut-600m-from-abc?CMP=soc_56

One Nation & Trumpsters can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!
10:15am 13/04/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1078 posts
One Nation & Trumpsters can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!


https://heatst.com/life/u-of-sydney-bans-the-red-pill-film-because-it-has-capacity-to-physically-threaten-women/

Feminists can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!


I'm not sure how screening a film has the capacity to physically threaten women by the way.

last edited by Rukh at 11:40:19 13/Apr/17
11:39am 13/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5234 posts
Whats awful about feminism? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously the obnoxious one's who scream at police for violating their rights when they break the law, aren't what i see as examples of the feminist movement.
It's cool to hate on it i guess.
12:16pm 13/04/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1080 posts
Whats awful about feminism? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously the obnoxious one's who scream at police for violating their rights when they break the law, aren't what i see as examples of the feminist movement. It's cool to hate on it i guess.


If you see feminism purely as advocating for equality for women with men, I have absolutely nothing against it, and would in fact support it.

Such a definition would define most people in the west (and maybe more of the world) I imagine.

Of course there's another word for supporting equality of the sexes etc. Egalitarianism.

So yes, I have nothing against that type of feminism.

I might ask things like "what actual rights do women lack in our society that men possess" but, if you can identify some I'm supportive of addressing things so that equality is attained.


The problem however is that feminism as its defined in academia through women's studies/gender studies/sociology etc. programs as well as practiced by university student feminists, and more troubling by politicians, journalists and lobbyists in positions to influence policies and affect actual change, is *not* just about advocacy for women to achieve equal rights.

That brand of feminism, much like marxism and captialism, is an ideology with its own set of beliefs and concepts. Central to such feminism, the feminism that actually has an influence, is Patriarchy Theory. That is, the theory that society and its structures have been set up by men to oppress women for the benefit of men. They see men as oppressors and women as the oppressed. Basically it's a re-imagining of Marxism which puts women in the role of the proletariat and men in the role of the bourgeoisie. It claims that it is this Patriarchy which instills and enforces gender roles. It rejects the idea that maybe the reverse is true and it is biologically influenced gender roles which create the society which has the appearance of being a "patriarchy".

It claims that we, in western society, live in a rape culture whereby we accept and allow the raping of women rather than the reality whereby it's punished heavily both legally and socially and is considered to be in the top tier of despised things one can do to someone else along with murder and child abuse.

Its a movement that not only rejects contrary evidence or viewpoints but actively seeks to silence any discussion of such evidence.

Its a movement that still claims to be for equality and against discrimination but pushes for laws that *only* mention protecting women even when gender neutral terms could be used and then criticises people that actually do care about equality for daring to speak up pointing out their hypocrisy.

Its a movement that will take a statistic that women (on average) earn about 77c on the dollar to what men (on average) earn and claim that that means that individual women get paid 23% less than individual men for the same work. (And will totally ignore spending power statistics that show men and women have roughly equal spending power which is a far more useful statistic anyway).

Its a movement that claims, through academic definitions that it's impossible to be sexist against men (or racist against whites etc.).

Its a movement that claims that women can be *physically threatened* by the screening of a film..... I mean I know The Red Pill can be confrontational to watch but it's not like it's The Ring come to life....





12:39pm 13/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12705 posts
The North Korean problem is getting a bit out of control.

War is not a game, North Korea is a bit like Israel, if they go down they will pull the World down with them. Lean on China more.
12:44pm 13/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2042 posts
The North Korean problem is getting a bit out of control.

War is not a game, North Korea is a bit like Israel, if they go down they will pull the World down with them. Lean on China more.

Yeah WTF, is the media beating this up or are is the US and by that, also us on the brink of war?

Thank fug I am too old and busted to be conscripted.
02:31pm 13/04/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13693 posts
Unfortunately that's the only option left when you're unable to support your position with arguments that withstand scrutiny

fixed
03:54pm 13/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5239 posts
08:14pm 13/04/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40547 posts
came to post concern over north korea situation.
07:39am 18/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7619 posts
^ it's just theatre, sabre rattling etc.

Kim jong Ronery needs to do a song and dance once and while so his starving population are too busy to realize he is a fraud.

Trump could achieve victory by carpet bombing North Korea with pop tarts wrapped in revolutionary propaganda grease paper.
08:21am 18/04/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40548 posts
they both crazy though
08:26am 18/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5253 posts
Imperialist U.S beating the war drums as is usual with republican presidents.
Media & economy love war. It feeds Capitalism nicely.
Not so good for the people on the receiving end though.
08:51am 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2468 posts
Remind the class which system of government NK uses Vash.
10:49am 18/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5254 posts
State capitalism my good man. Or socialism for the elite, in other words. Just another form of soviet style governance.
10:52am 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2469 posts
You are such an adorable moron.
12:18pm 18/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21229 posts
State capitalism my good man


lol w0t
12:22pm 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2470 posts
It really is special.

He knows more about islam than imams and more about socialism than lenin mao and marx combined.

Kim Jung Un is really just a misunderstood CEO.
12:27pm 18/04/17 Permalink
Vash
3466 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
Send Private Message
01:07pm 18/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1826 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
Send Private Message
01:09pm 18/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5256 posts


heheh
02:56pm 18/04/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1089 posts
That Tony Abbott rap is gold lol
03:45pm 18/04/17 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1558 posts
457 Visa is now official BANNED...
03:46pm 18/04/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
687 posts

457 Visa is now official BANNED...

....
The Federal Government will abolish the 457 visa and replace it with two new visas, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/government-abolishing-457-visas/8450310
04:12pm 18/04/17 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1666 posts
457 Visa is now official BANNED...


Indian food is about to get much worse. Bazza the cook will have a job though, so now he can buy higher quality weed.

In summary: a strategic move to get browny points with the idiots and racists, especially those who can't get jobs because they are incompetent.
05:45pm 18/04/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9418 posts
Good. The point of the 457 Visa is to allow companies to fill gaps in education and skills. Two years is plenty of time to train someone of slightly lower experience. If you're going for a BS wishlist of 8 years experience with some random technology, and often times still paying the equivalent of someone with no experience, why is that okay as a long-term plan? As a company owner/manager it's your responsibility to help develop the skills amongst society which your companies requires to operate, not rely on them just being someone elses problem.
06:36pm 18/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38883 posts
Two years is plenty of time to train someone of slightly lower experience.
Not if you are growing / expanding rapidly and need to fill holes in order to stay competitive on the international scene
06:54pm 18/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12710 posts
Tony Abbott is making a play for the top job.
Hes prolly the only one that could at least claim the Public did vote for him as PM (yeah elected by Party)

Turnbull has to resign.
His 3 attempts at a selfie with the Leader of India - a Nuclear Power - on a Train made Australia look like a nation of Trunbulls as the World calls us.

We need to go Nuclear.
Get a bit of respect in the neighbourhood.
Kim Jr does not try to get selfies.
He also never lost a Poll, ever.
12:24am 19/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7620 posts
07:52am 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2472 posts
There could be a youtube channel in the "guardian reacts"

calling an election is a coup.
09:24am 19/04/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
688 posts

It's probably a good idea to read the stats on 457 visa before posting racist s*** about Indians:

https://www.border.gov.au/about/reports-publications/research-statistics/statistics/work-in-australia

1 Managers 2,107 16.4%
2 Professionals 7,365 57.2%
3 Technicians and Trades Workers 2,824 21.9%


09:57am 19/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5257 posts
There could be a youtube channel in the "guardian reacts"

calling an election is a coup.


Calling it a coup is a stretch, but it is a pretty ugly move. Good article regardless of calling it that.
Smart power play for Theresa & her party.

Surprised Turnbull didn't do the same back when he was polling excellent.
10:19am 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2473 posts
It's an hysterical article.

the author claims May has trashed her brand, and she is likely to win in landslide.

That is flat out incoherent. I get why you like it now.
10:39am 19/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5258 posts
Turnbull & Abbott were polling great, look how they ended up.
Im sure Theresa know's her great polling is very temporary, and is using that political capital now. People catch on to conservative policy pretty quickly, though they never learn from history.

There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning. Usually when the opposition is undesirable. Glorious democracy, the sewer or the dump.
10:56am 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2474 posts
Abbott was never polling well you dolt.

And Turnbull trashed his brand and nearly got himself a hung parliament.

Trashing your brand is by definition the opposite of a good polling result.


There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning.


Name 5.

*edit* People catch on to conservative policy pretty quickly, though they never learn from history. */edit*.

Just one post vash. Just one where you don't present a bald faced contradiction. The people know, but they never learn. F*** me.
11:02am 19/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5259 posts
Hows that a contradiction? Oh dear PP, why does everything have to be explained for you?
So, when Theresa releases her budget or policy changes, people will catch on and go, thats s***. Polls quickly dive. Just like with Abbott & Turnbull.
Then, years later people forget, and they get elected again. Hence the not learning from history part.
12:01pm 19/04/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9420 posts
There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning.

Name 5.

Well, there's Pepsi...
12:11pm 19/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5260 posts
12:16pm 19/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12712 posts
I thought all of Britain was so angry about Brexit that they demanded a new vote.
How come the person who is making Brexit happen is so far ahead in the Polls ?

That Corbyn guy is a crazy person, hes worse than Turnbull.
May called an Election a few hours after this interview

12:30pm 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2475 posts
Nevermind Vash.

People are hard to trick but also never learn from history is a straightforward contradiction.

Surely you could trick people by waiting a certain amount of time, but you can't because people are hard to trick (almost like they've learnt from history or something).

But moreover, the context of this debate is with something that has literally never happened before. Britain has left the EU zero times you knuckle dragging moron

Just because you can't learn from history vis socialism doesn't mean the general population share your learning disability.
01:18pm 19/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38886 posts
How come the person who is making Brexit happen is so far ahead in the Polls ?
May was mostly anti-Brexit fwiw. I think she's ahead in the polls because she seems to be doing a pretty decent job given the stupid circumstances and because (as you point out) her main competition is widely considered clownshoes.

If Labor put up a hardcore anti-brexit shouty man candidate that promised to undo Brexit I think they might have a chance. But May seems to have been cunning and called this on super short notice so everyone thinks Labor is just going to flail around uselessly in the meantime and basically have no chance. Read a Guardian article last night basically saying they're confused about why Labor seem likely to vote to approve this early election when it seems they have literally no chance at all, but maybe they know that and are keen to just make sure Brexit is 100% a Conservative s****how.

Either way this early election has blown everyone's minds!
06:03pm 19/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2476 posts
Brexit is a bit of a fraught issue for Labour.

My understanding is that it polls pretty well in the work class demographics, so it makes it difficult for Labour to go really hard. Corbyn is a brexiteer, he has been literally up until the referendum. He is incredibly difficult to take seriously on it.

But he also seems to be difficult to get rid of as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if them accepting an electoral wipeout is evidence they want to f*** corbyn off and this would give them a compelling reason to do so.

I read somewhere that polling for brexit has been improving since the referendum, so I think going super anti-brexit might be a dead end for Labour particularly.
07:15pm 19/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2043 posts
07:33pm 19/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7621 posts
She looks like a vampire


.. i'd still hit it
07:51pm 19/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2044 posts

Great article for anyone under the illusion that the LNP would have done better if Tone was at the helm last election.

http://www.afr.com/news/secret-polling-how-malcolm-turnbull-helped-save-tony-abbott-20170418-gvnfh9


08:19am 20/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5262 posts
Leftie rag! Tony Abbott is a good catholic man!
Good honest politician!

/pensioner that listens to 2GB
08:31am 20/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12717 posts
How could it have been worse Sir Redhat ?
Trunbull managed to win by one seat.
Turned the Senate into a Creche for Kooks
but he saved Abbott ?

The best thing that could have happened to the Liberal Party was to lose the last Election.

Ive been hanging out in some Facebook Groups with Liberal Party supporters and 90% of the posts are pleas to get rid of Turnbull. They dont talk about Shorten or the greens, its just wall to wall despair over Turnbull. I have never seen a post that supported Turnbull, how can you have a Leader that nobody likes ?

The Train Selfie with the Indian PM was the most degrading thing Ive seen since The Witch acted like a schoolgirl with Obama. He acts like being PM is a part time job he does that has good perks, like riding on Trains, what is it with Turnbull and Trains ?

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg35/ggb777/17991052_1460550243964135_7727438066918636848_n_zpse09gq2iu.png



01:01pm 20/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2045 posts
Well since you think the best thing would have been the LNP losing the last election then yes, I guess it couldn't have been any worse.

Mal was installed to save the furniture.

They dont talk about Shorten or the greens, its just wall to wall despair over Turnbull. I have never seen a post that supported Turnbull, how can you have a Leader that nobody likes ?


ROFL matey, do you think anyone in the public likes shorten? Labor members overwhelmingly voted for Albo last leadership challenge, but the faceless men have backed shorten for some f***ed up reason.
07:11pm 20/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5269 posts
06:44pm 21/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38891 posts
When bombing is done for boring reasons like shorting stocks. How crazy is this?!
06:45pm 21/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2477 posts
Sure makes a break from the totally indecipherable reasons the Paris shooting happened.
10:30pm 21/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12720 posts
07:41pm 22/04/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18371 posts

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-a7694316.html


See you buttmunchers. I'm not being retarded when I say Donald Trump is a f*****g nutjob and seriously should not be in command of the powers that he is.
09:23pm 22/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2478 posts
It's curious they accuse trump of grandiose ideas of himself, but then go on to say that the stakes are too high for the Goldwater rule to apply to them, they are "compelled" to share their, by definition, arm chair analysis.

So you never did go into the content and reasoning for this "Goldwater" rule Toll. Tell us more.
10:30am 23/04/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18372 posts
Why deflect like that PornoPete. I'm sure those highly experienced professionals have a good understanding of the goldwater rule, much more than you and I at the least, and yet they chose to continue with their analysis. Perhaps that tells you something of the gravity of the situation.

It's amusing you use the word armchair as well, a poor attempt to discredit these people as you understand the negative connotations of that word well enough. I guess it was an ill attempt to try say you know better than these professionals?
12:42pm 23/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2479 posts
It's amusing you use the word armchair as well

They make it clear they haven't personally examined him, so it is armchair analysis toll.

Perhaps that tells you something of the gravity of the situation.

Yeah or how much they like the sound of their own voices.

When you produce a clinical diagnoses and not a petition you'll have a point and not before.
01:06pm 23/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25806 posts
Yeah but it really explains a lot of the bizarre happenings that have occurred. For example, one out of dozens that defy belief -

Spicer's press conference after the inauguration. What rational explanation is there for that? He is on a podium quite literally denying reality. Why would someone do that? Is it because the NPD armchair diagnosis is actually a thing and Trump is lying to soothe a bruised ego, or is it part of some master plan where he sets up his support base to believe any lie no matter how obvious they are? Or is it something else?

When someone is constantly displaying bizarre unexplainable behaviour what else is there to do but speculate and then go with whatever seems to fit. The deeply disturbed narcissistic compulsive liar speculation fits pretty well to me. A clinical diagnosis would be nice and I'd pay good money for it to happen, but it never will.
01:50pm 23/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2480 posts
I don't know and I don't care to find out.

The media obsessing over attendance was an embarrassment to begin with. Difficult to credibly accuse trump of being petty while you're out there saying "Obama had more" as though there is anything in slightest riding on it.

So of course it's weird for spicer to be attacking over it, but it was a bunch of f*****g weirdos who decided to make an issue of it in the first place.

but moreover, you can claim Hillary was psychopathically obsessed with power if you want to. She has repeatedly taken money from people who she has no business taking money from, and there is virtually no position of import for the left wing she hasn't changed her mind on.

If you consider that obvious red meat for tea party types (which it is), probably worth backing up and thinking if you are being fed red meat too.

The rule exists for a reason, and its not like the American Psychiatric Association (who created and enforce the rule) are not experts at the top of their field. They have issued a statement in their official journal not to do exactly the s*** toll keeps linking to, specifically in relation to trump.

Here is what the president of the APA has to say.
The unique atmosphere of this year’s election cycle may lead some to want to psychoanalyze the candidates, but to do so would not only be unethical, it would be irresponsible.
I guess it was an ill attempt to try say you know better than these professionals?


I guess toll thinks he knows better then Dr Oquendo the president of the APA. I mean what kind of total idiot does her CV make her look like? How many life times would you need to catch up?
02:26pm 23/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12721 posts
Psychiatry ?
Lets judge Psychiatry based on its history.

Trump is not surrounded by Trumps He gets his advice from highly qualified people. Its fine to have a giggle about some of Trumps statements but that is just Trump, those around the table explain the scenarios/options and Trump ultimately decides. Thats how the decisions are made, they arent made on Twitter.
There are some claims that Trump has off-loaded the Military decisions to his Generals in the administration. Would that help you sleep better Toll ?

Good Luck to Marine Le Pen
France has two Socialists a Communist and a Far Right candidate.
Labor, Labor-Lite, the greens and Hanson.
03:55pm 23/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7625 posts
interesting...

06:19pm 23/04/17 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5324 posts
Massively not a fan of Trump. But I read the article and all I could think was there was an underlying agenda behind the comments and diagnosis. From the article it sounds like this group has been anti trump for a very long time. Was hard to read the article without feeling like there was a bias in the accusations.
07:15pm 23/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25807 posts
From the article it sounds like this group has been anti trump for a very long time
If you weren't anti-trump from the absolute beginning then you're pretty dumb.
07:54pm 23/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2481 posts
If you weren't anti-trump from the absolute beginning then you're pretty dumb.


Might be a justification against lending psychiatry's name to a political dispute in that sentence somewhere.
08:06pm 23/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2048 posts

Good Luck to Marine Le Pen
France has two Socialists a Communist and a Far Right candidate.
Labor, Labor-Lite, the greens and Hanson.


It should be interesting. Looks like Le Pen and Macron will go through for the 2nd round.

Such a weird system. What a pain to have to go to the polls twice. I guess you could get x2 democracy sausages though or whatever the french equiv is.
07:37am 24/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12722 posts
She did well, There are two choices for France - stick with the stinking mess that is The EU or Leave and pull France to the Right.

Meanwhile at The UN...
The United Nations' Economic and Social Council has voted, by secret ballot, to place the kingdom of Saudi Arabia on the Commission on the Status of Women. The commission aims at "empowering" women and ensuring their equality. The commission's newest member, Saudi Arabia, bans women from opening a bank account without their husband's permission.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/228461

"secret ballot"
I wonder how many Democratic Western Countries voted for that ?
Where are the Feminists ?

12:44pm 24/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5270 posts
12:51pm 24/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12723 posts
Criminals committing violence drives Left Wing Thugs to beat people up who are exercising their Freedom of Speech ?
Maybe condemning all forms of violence would be a logical response ?

I see Bernie Sanders has had a bit to say about the Snowflakes at Berkley who are terrified of Anne Coulter speaking words.

Sanders made clear he is firmly in the latter camp. “To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness,” he said. “If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?” “What are you afraid of ― her ideas?

Ask her the hard questions,” he concluded. “Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/bernie-sanders-ann-coulter-berkeley_us_58fb7006e4b00fa7de14bc3d


06:48pm 24/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38896 posts
She did well, There are two choices for France - stick with the stinking mess that is The EU or Leave and pull France to the Right.
what's with all you people that just want to tear the world apart into tiny independent chunks where everyone lives in their own area with their own people. you know that's what it used to be like before we developed modern civilisation right? loosely independent city states that formed into larger areas operating in a coordinated manner? it's literally why humanity has been able to do all the interesting things it has done

genuine question btw. I have to assume this is part of some over-arching philosophy to actually regress the planet back into city states and I'd be really fascinated to hear what it is. I hope it's not just as boring as you're just terrified witless of Muslims. The Brexiteers in the UK seem to be slowly realising that it's a logical extrapolation of leaving the EU and are very slowly starting to get terrified that London is going to carve itself off from the rest of the country, which of course would be a trainwreck for England.
07:18pm 24/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12724 posts
if The EU is so wonderful why isnt The EU a Democracy ?
Its a tough one to get past.
Like that other undemocratic Beast - The UN.

From Immigration to Energy to Fiscal Policy to Human Rights to even Fishing Rights the member States rarely have a win against The Beast and now that the British people have voted to leave The EU is making threats.
And The EU wants to create its own Military ? uh no thx

Im a bit puzzled as to what you see that is so wonderful ?
Its easier to Travel ?
easier to enact "Progressivism" that eats away at Cultural Identity ?

Sadly Le Pen wont win in France but she has energized much of Western Europe.

09:24pm 24/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38899 posts
if The EU is so wonderful why isnt The EU a Democracy ? Its a tough one to get past.
Is it? It seems like it's just a vague comment that sounds insightful on the surface because of the staggering complexity of any possible answer.

I'm sure it could be improved but you can say that about literally any democracy; trying to make sure citizens feel empowered I think is going to be the big ticket item of the next century (at least in normal reasonably representative democracies that don't have broken two party systems).
easier to enact "Progressivism" that eats away at Cultural Identity ?
I often wonder what people who keep talking about "Cultural Identity" think the world was like 30, 50, 100 years ago.
Im a bit puzzled as to what you see that is so wonderful ?
If we're just dropping Twitter-sized chunks of text that make good soundbites (as per usual) instead of having a real conversation I guess I'd say just the usual boring thing like a billion people from different places working together to create a better & more unified world.

More specifically? The single market seems to be really good for businesses, although I think it could still be improved (at least speaking from POV of someone operating a business in UK and working with EU countries; some tax s*** is really confusing like VAT in certain cases - but I feel that way about tax systems in general). I kind of like the way the EU gets together to force douchey companies (particularly US ones) to operate in a non-douchey manner because I think generally it has a very strong consumer focus (as opposed to the US companies where consumer rights are a bit of a joke).

I think the economic impact & benefits of the EU operating the way it does is simply not visible to the bulk of people who live in it.

"Easier to travel" is kind of a snide way of summarising freedom of movement and employment for anyone in the EU. I think this is as close to a libertarian fantasy as anyone could possibly want. From what I can tell in London it is a key factor in why the city is such an economic powerhouse - because any company has the ability to employ the best people and it's not restricted to a handful of large corporates (like for example in the US).

I live in London & spend a lot of time in Paris for work so I mostly hang out with city-types who are all pretty strong on the EU. I don't personally know anyone that voted Brexit or is voting Le Pen (or at least, noone who is game to say). So when I see idle commentary about the EU from people outside it I have to wonder where they get their opinions from. Especially when they seem to be pro-USA, which is basically like Europe but with one language and a federal government that seems much worse than anything Brussels has.

I've only been here for a year so I'm not trying to pretend I'm some hots*** EU expert. But human civilisation is about working together & I think the EU is a noble goal. (And the UN.) Just because it's not perfect doesn't mean it's broken.
12:12am 25/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3251 posts
Hmm, seems what Turnbull is doing is not dissimilar to what Cameron did to try to prevent losing voters to UKIP in the UK.

Great video sLaps_Forehead, found that very interesting, ta.

Yeah I've been wondering that too trog. Why are peeps so keen to tear it all down? All that progress has likely contributed greatly to you being able to comfortably spout this rhetoric on online forums FaceMan. Not to mention that kind of global integration is the only hope for the future of humanity in the really long term. Why are we worrying ourselves about what people look like when we could be Star Treking it up out in the universe?

Think you're grossly underselling the benefits of the EU there too.



I'm surprised at the hate for Macron, it seems to me that young, energetic and idealistic centrist leaders is exactly what we need to start bridging the gap between the extreme right and left that's sprung up of late. Although I can see how the anti-establishment crowd don't like that and would prefer a radical change.

Thought this article had a great run down on the recent Europe shiz: The French elections showed the strength of the European far-right — and its limit

What we’re seeing in France mirrors what’s happening in much of Europe. After the twin shocks of Brexit and Trump, the far-right has seen a series of setbacks. From elections in Austria and the Netherlands to polls in all-important Germany, the far-right is performing far less well than many have expected.

What far-right parties are doing, then, is attempting to invent a largely new form of politics: One that calls for a radical reorientation of European society away from tolerance and continent-wide integration, and something closer to the kind of nationalist set-up we saw in Europe prior to 1939.

There’s a reason that we haven’t seen such a politics succeed since then, of course: World War II. The horror of the war and the Holocaust created a continent-wide aversion to nationalism and an aversion to anything that smelled like Nazi-style racism. The current far-right parties are running at this consensus with a battering ram.
12:58am 25/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1278 posts
Sorry to interupt but Ive been camping for the last 10 days and have no idea whats happening in the news, but the missus is all worried about some Korean nuclear threat.

I was hoping someone here could summarise the issue cos im too lazy to read pages.
01:43am 25/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25808 posts
Pretty much the same bulls*** that's been coming out of NK for years except now there's a mentally challenged person in charge of the USA so something bad might actually happen.
03:58am 25/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5272 posts
It would be profoundly stupid to initiate anything with NK. They are building nuclear weapons for the same reason any other state does. Defense of their borders.
Don't be fooled into thinking they are the aggressor.
Words mean nothing until they're put into action. NK's threatening language are to ensure people they will use those nukes if they are invaded.
Who is really the aggressor here when the USA has as many bases worldwide as it does, and an increasingly ridiculous military budget?
07:59am 25/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7626 posts
Oh Vash vash vash .... *shakes head*
08:51am 25/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5273 posts
North Korea hasn't invaded anyone since the 50s.

How's the USA's track record? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Then you have the countless bases worldwide, CIA interventions in elections & foreign Governments (Even in Australia)
Who is really the aggressor?
09:07am 25/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1279 posts
Is it one of those fake news events that occurs to saturate the airwaves and distract us whilst something else is going on. Is there a controversial law being passed in the background or something.
09:37am 25/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2482 posts
Pretty much the same bulls*** that's been coming out of NK for years except now there's a mentally challenged person in charge of the USA so something bad might actually happen.


But strangely the nuclear apocalypse hasn't happened.

North Korea hasn't invaded anyone since the 50s.

How's the USA's track record? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Then you have the countless bases worldwide, CIA interventions in elections & foreign Governments (Even in Australia)
Who is really the aggressor?


North Korea.

If we're just dropping Twitter-sized chunks of text that make good soundbites (as per usual) instead of having a real conversation I guess I'd say just the usual boring thing like a billion people from different places working together to create a better & more unified world.


Pretty hard to take that seriously when you hear the rhetoric from Grexit to Brexit. And the argument which is always put forward is sovereignty.

So for example your discussion about tax. If you really started f*****g with governments abilities to set tax rates you'd see how unified Europe is. The EU is predicated on Sovereign countries retaining a sense of identity. A useful shorthand for this could be called cultural identity.

I often wonder what people who keep talking about "Cultural Identity" think the world was like 30, 50, 100 years ago.


I wonder what you mean by this. particularly if you pick the 30 to 50 years ago bracket I don't think it is implausible to say that in Europe at least, the general mood was more internationalist than it is now.

So if anything the recent history of the EU has seen a distinct retreat into respective ethnicity. For example in my lifetime I'd say the 90's was the high ridin time for the EU, saw the creation of the Euro, the full implementation of the Schengen zone, the adoption of the term "European Union", and the proper creation of the single market. but it also oversaw the bloodiest ethnic conflict since before WW1 (ironically enough in the breakdown of a country that had been trying to forge a new cultural identity in "Yugoslavia" for more than 70 years). it also oversaw the creation of at least 10 new sovereign states. do we chalk that decade up to a win for internationalism or cultural identity?

And when you talk about a star trek type brotherhood of man future, what do you mean? I lived with a polish truck driver and I can tell you now he wasn't working "create a better & more unified world". He was working to get f***ed up at the weekend, and you could do that more efficiently in London than rural Poland. We had some great times so in a sense we were unified, but he was fiercely Polish. Germans made crap sausage and Russians made crap vodka (he had a point about the vodka).

So I'll sum up by saying I don't think you can make a precise articulation of the European Union project except in vague unification and overall economic progress terms, both of which the evidence is mixed for.
11:39am 25/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12725 posts
I agree with Vash !

North Korea was bombed back to the stone age in the '50s and are determined to never let that happen again. They have a Right to test their Missiles and Nukes.

What about India ? Pakistan ? an Islamic country with Nukes.
and of course Israel who regularly attacks Syria and threatens Lebanon.
None of those countries will ever give up their Nukes.
Why should NK ?

It would be a bad idea for NK to do a Nuke Test today but this problem is not going to go away.
12:17pm 25/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7627 posts
Vash and Faceman, go get a room you two!
12:30pm 25/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38900 posts
What about India ? Pakistan ? an Islamic country with Nukes.
jesus christ don't say that too loudly!! people are already scared of muslims with cars, imagine how they'll react if they discover Pakistan isn't just another dirty third world country with a decent cricket team but an actual nuclear power with genuine extremists as part of their actual government, like that train minister guy who offered a bounty to assassinate the moron who made that stupid Innocence of Muslims movie. We'd never hear the end of it!
05:50pm 25/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12726 posts
Trog its assumed that Saudi Arabia financed Pakistans Nuclear Program in exchange for Nuclear Weapons if they ever needed them.
The Mother of ISIS has a means of acquiring Nuclear Weapons.

Rem that "Islam is the most Feminist Religion" nutter from The ABC ?

ABC presenter Yassmin Abdel-Magied has been savaged on social media after suggesting Australians should spare a thought for those on Manus Island and in Syria instead of the Anzacs.

The host of the ABC 24's Australia Wide program fell afoul of Facebook users today when she posted "Lest We Forget (Manus.Nauru. Syria. Palestine)". She was forced to delete the post after receiving a barrage of comments from irate social users. Read more at

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/04/25/16/58/abc-presenter-savaged-for-disrespecting-anzacs#v0yZURm5pEj2p4wd.99

Australian Values ?
06:07pm 25/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3252 posts
What is sovereignty really? It's a made up thing, just like the concept of nation states. I thought trog's analogy to the US was interesting, as you could kind of see it going that kind of way in the EU, especially if they start setting tax policy per country or similar which they probably need to do to fix the Euro. I suppose the question is whether you can maintain cultural identity without such overt boundaries? I would imagine you can, Scotland might be an example of that.

Too true Pete, but we could be getting f***ed up together on a distant planet, chasing Arcturian poontang or sampling alien vodka instead of just kicking it in London innit. And ideally without all the bloodshed & hatred, although no doubt we'd be fighting some alien wars I suppose. What are your thoughts on the EU?

In other news the EU is helping the average joe by getting rid of those extortionate mobile roaming charges!
09:08pm 25/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2483 posts
I'll answer more fully later viper,

But I like the EU, but I will say this. The fact that it is a treaty of nation states means that the universalist message that gets bandied about in relation to it is wrong headed. It has written into its DNA respect for the final sovereignty of nations.
10:12pm 25/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1281 posts
Half of cultural identity has a deep historical story but the other half is the land itself fashions the community.

Some crude examples would be...

Woks were invented to minimize cooking time due to lack of fuel.
Fondue was invented due to lack of anything that wasn't cheese.
Australia has s***loads of everything.

I feel fortunate to be an Australian, but I dont feel proud to be an Australian.
I can't lay much claim to have contributed, not like the ANZACS, so I dont feel Aussie pride so to speak, its not an achievement, being Australian, its just a coincidence.

I feel fortunate and and privileged.
10:12pm 25/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5274 posts
Fair post Baz, That's why people should be more empathetic to people in war torn poorer regions. They're no different to you or I.
The material conditions of the land, culture & people who surround you determine who you become.

Success is only minimally self driven. Many things can happen to a person to disrupt the process of getting there.
07:50am 26/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12727 posts
Baz
I feel fortunate and and privileged.


I find you Guilty of living in a Liberal Democracy.
You have one one responsibility
You either love it and defend it or some piece of s*** Ideology will come and take it away.

I find your entire post offensive especially on ANZAC Day.

03:10pm 26/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5275 posts
or some piece of s*** Ideology will come and take it away.


Like yours? ;)
It's unfortunate some people don't see that our high standards of living are thanks to unions & socialist movements.
Without them, you'd probably find yourself working 7 days a week just to rake in a livable wage.
03:41pm 26/04/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2359 posts

No evidence cutting taxes boosts growth: Krugman

The Business Council of Australia argues a lower company tax rate will "give businesses a better chance to transition to a competitive global economy and incentives to invest, innovate and create jobs".

Nobel prize winning economist, Paul Krugman, begs to differ.

Mr Krugman has spoken out ahead of US President Donald Trump's plans to unveil big tax cuts for big business and wealthy individuals in the United States.

"History offers not a shred of support for faith in the pro-growth effects of tax cuts," Mr Krugman said.

To support his thesis Paul Krugman points to the performance of the United States economy under Presidents Clinton and Obama on one hand, and Presidents Reagan and Bush (junior) on the other.

Republicans Reagan and Bush cut taxes. Democrats Clinton and Obama raised taxes.

According to Paul Krugman the economy performed better under Clinton and Obama, with the much-touted benefits of tax cuts not appearing for Reagan and Bush.

Krugman quotes George Bush senior (Republican President from 1989-1993) as saying that, "the claim that cutting taxes on rich people will conjure up an economic miracle, so much so that revenues will actually rise ” is 'voodoo economic policy'". The BCA budget submission has many good things to say.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the heavy lifting of balancing the budget, the BCA wants others to do it.


I hate it when a Nobel Laureate proves me right.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-26/big-business-big-iidea-for-the-budget/8473224
05:15pm 26/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2484 posts
Is this the same Paul Krugman that said that the stock market would *never* recover from a trump election and the stock market went on to hit about 40 record highs?
05:21pm 26/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25809 posts
When a person is wrong once (or twice, or thrice) it means they are wrong about everything forever.
06:08pm 26/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2485 posts
No but this:

I hate it when a Nobel Laureate proves me right.


may be premature.
06:20pm 26/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5276 posts
There's a bit of a difference with being wrong about a prediction, and making claims on existing evidence.
Many economists have said the same thing looking at available economic data.
06:33pm 26/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2486 posts
Many economists have said the same thing looking at available economic data.


Name twenty, you can split the difference with islamists who think gay marriage is a thing.
06:43pm 26/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38902 posts
Someone posted this on my FB; I hesitate to share it further but it's such a great example of a fake news narrative twisting meme. It's close enough to what actually happened without actually really being in any way what actually happened. But it reinforces the stereotypes people want to believe anyway.

F*****g work of art. You can see it brought out all the trainwrecks of humanity to comment on it, exactly as intended.
07:12pm 26/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7628 posts
Alan Lewis: I'm a Vietnam Vet and was not insulted by her. Also the woman in the top picture was not sacked by the ABC.. This is just a big beat up and if Australians really cared about our diggers they would be up in arms about the well over 300 current veterans that have committed suicide since 2001, 8 have already topped themselves already this year.
07:44pm 26/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2488 posts
Well gee trog, I guess you've been reading too many faceman posts.

too much to ask why it's "fake news" and why people annoyed at what she posted are "train wrecks of humanity" i spose.

You know for someone who insists they are above it all you sure like to wallow in some s*** brother.

Causally note you didn't suggest the people demanding bill leak be taken before the human rights commission were "train wrecks of humanity".

Wouldn't want to score points or anything.

In what way is it a work of art.

These are all just words.

You do like that term "train wreck of humanity". What does it mean exactly?
09:31pm 26/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2049 posts
Did you read the comments on that post PP? Or just froth like so many in that piece? You only had to see like the first few.
09:58pm 26/04/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2360 posts
Is this the same Paul Krugman that said that the stock market would *never* recover from a trump election and the stock market went on to hit about 40 record highs?


Whilst that is true he did publish that opinion the facts are, in the US, that the wealthy would buy stocks because a "republican" president would lower taxes and therefore increase dividends to the stockholders. Gaining both the benefits of the tax reduction and the dividends.

The truth of the Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama administrations is still the truth, no matter what obfuscation you may wish.
10:59pm 26/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25810 posts
"Hey guys is it okay to recognise the fact that some people are going through hell right now brought about by war on this day celebrating and remembering the heroes and victims of war?"

"Well it might be oka... WAIT A MINUTE SHE'S A F*****G MUSLIM AND SHE'S REMEMBERING BROWN PEOPLE EVEN WORSE BROWN REFUGEE PEOPLE"

"DEPORT THE VERMIN B****"

ie. trainwrecks of humanity.

All holidays with Australia somewhere in the title are being destroyed by jingoistic f*****g morons so f*****g stupid that while they're busy masturbating each other about who cares about teh fallen diggers the most they've forgotten why they died.
12:36am 27/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38905 posts
sLaps, that is pretty good. There are a few people in there trying to fight the good fight; I 'liked' a few of them (& I went back & liked that one) but it kind of feels like a futile guesture.

This Anzac day wet t-shirt contest made the news here today but not sure if there was a social media party about it
02:10am 27/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3253 posts
Alan Lewis: I'm a Vietnam Vet and was not insulted by her. Also the woman in the top picture was not sacked by the ABC.. This is just a big beat up and if Australians really cared about our diggers they would be up in arms about the well over 300 current veterans that have committed suicide since 2001, 8 have already topped themselves already this year.


I'd be inclined to agree with this. A lot of peeps (mass generalisation) seem to only be that bothered about ANZAC for a good party.
04:17am 27/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7630 posts
I agree, but I also think she was a bit careless. I heard Gerard Minack make a good point that she shouldn't be sacked or publically derided but that ABC should sit her down and guide her on how she can use social media to express her opinions in a more tactful way.

07:27am 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2489 posts
The truth of the Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama administrations is still the truth, no matter what obfuscation you may wish.


Seems like a radically different claim to there is no evidence to support the claim that tax cuts can be good for an economy Hogfather. And if you are going to compare how the economies are ticking over I think you need a little more than just Krugmans word for it. the 80's was a pretty good time for the US, and overall statistics are going to be skewed by the black wednesday crash. Clinton didn't go through anything like that.

So when you say proved right, you might want to reframe as a Krugman agrees with you.


ie. trainwrecks of humanity.

All holidays with Australia somewhere in the title are being destroyed by jingoistic f*****g morons so f*****g stupid that while they're busy masturbating each other about who cares about teh fallen diggers the most they've forgotten why they died.


hrm interesting. so its spraying invective on facebook that makes them trainwrecks of humanity. so when Muslims march under banners that translate as "death to those who insult the prophet" are they trainwrecks of humanity? because i've seen trog use the term to describe that zero times.

When far left people turn up throwing bottles at people in crowds at Berkley suddenly no-platforming is all about free speech. Again zero use of trainwrecks of humanity to describe that.

*edit* or the socialist supporters who set fire to random cars in Paris because a candidate they don't like performed better than they'd have liked. That happened a couple of days ago. Are they trainwrecks of humanity? or is there something understandable about the resort to violence in an upsetting election result?

Even if all three retroactively get labeled that, Trog didn't see fit to label it that at the time.
*/edit*

So I'm not convinced spraying invective really is the link here.

This Anzac day wet t-shirt contest made the news here today but not sure if there was a social media party about it


and Mr false equivalence raises his head. so you're confused why a pub canceling a wet t-shirt competition (because its disrespectful) and a woman literally paid by the national broadcaster to promote tolerance disrespecting the most significant Australian day of remembrance didn't generate equivalent responses? Really? Notice you left out the cancelled bit for the pub. Shall we talk about fake news now trog?
10:25am 27/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12728 posts
You could not do worse than try to use ANZAC Day to promote a Political view... apart from defending Child Marriage which that "Feminist Icon" grubby Greer did the other night on Q&A.

GERMAINE GREER The thing you’re assuming is that in child marriage, there will be sexual intercourse. Now, if you actually look at the background to the way in which families marry, say, in village India, it’s not expected that the little girl will be subject to sexual intercourse. That will be controlled by her mother-in-law, probably, and access to the child will only be allowed when she’s considered to be old enough to be able to deal with it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/how-dare-germaine-greer-play-down-child-marriage/news-story/a68d8c246059d68e4614b1daf8b7fef5

Because no Country treats Women better than India.

12:56pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5277 posts

What fpot said.

Also, as mentioned before, look at post WW2. Tax rates @ 90% anyone? Should have caused the economy to become constipated if you listen to any neo liberal.
But no.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/so-do-tax-cuts-create-job_b_1943500.html



http://i.imgur.com/0NdJc6P.jpg


01:17pm 27/04/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21239 posts
Trump itching for a war with NK 😂😂

Moving a missile defense system into south korea.

Something is up when china are the voice is reason
04:00pm 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2490 posts
Yeah so the top marginal rate is 90% and GDP growth goes from 8% to -1% in three years and the economy didn't s*** itself in your eyes?

and I suppose lower GDP growth being strongly associated with highly developed economies plays no role in that graph whatsoever.

You really do have no idea what you're talking about do you Vash.
04:24pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3254 posts
I don't get why the US moving missile defence systems into South Korea is seen as such an aggressive move by people, although I understand it from a geopolitical balancing perspective and that given the timing it heightens tensions. The US wouldn't do it if they didn't think the North might actually launch something, or if they're preparing to attack and they want to be able limit damage to the South.

However, North Korea is a rogue state that has been consistently threatening to attack South Korea, Japan and the US whilst also consistently trying to develop the conventional and nuclear missile capabilities to do so. The time window on preventing them from getting nuclear capability is rapidly closing, 2 years left or similar I think. What do you do with that?

A) Wait for them to attack you and be f***ed.
B) Attack them first, kinda considered a d*** move, and they would be able to wipe out most of Seoul in the exchange, so a net loss of sorts.
C) Install missile defence systems so that if they do attack you can shoot down the missiles and save everyone.

China obviously doesn't want missile defence systems anywhere near them as it will prevent their ability to be the dominant power in the region, e.g. f*** with other Asian countries without anyone being able to do anything about it. If you think China is going to be a benevolent super power in how it treats it's neighbours, then I think history would prove you wrong, although we can always hope.

Moreover, China only supports the North to A) prevent there being American forces on their border and thus some geopolitical containment strategy in effect and B) because if the country collapses they'll have to deal with the millions of medieval refugees that surge north.

I thought this was an interesting take on it. The North Korea nuclear crisis is going to explode – just not yet
05:34pm 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2491 posts
How true is B?

My understanding is that they could wipe Seoul off the face of the earth, but I don't think they'd be able to project force very far south. However, obviously it's the least attractive option.

Thanks for the article.
06:04pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5278 posts
PP it seems you struggle to read charts. I was going to post some more but seems i'd be wasting my time.

with NK, why would they attack? It gains them nothing.
Nuclear is a deterrent for them.
06:16pm 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2492 posts
So you see the part from 1951 to 1954 Vash.

The most volatile period in that chart is strongly associated with a top marginal rate of 90%.

I think it is you who struggles with charts.
06:48pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5279 posts
See the part from 1951 to 2008?
Data in the long term is far more useful than short term. Growth is dropping along with the tax rates.
Tax burden is being transferred from corporations to the individual.
That just hurts growth, less purchasing power for the individual = less economic activity.
06:53pm 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2493 posts
Yeah and there is the simplistic explanation we were all waiting for.

so in 50 years of economic data, the top marginal tax rate is the thing that determines growth.

That is among the stupidest things you have said on this forum.

Why don't you go and take a look at tax rates in Singapore and mark that against GPD.

And then take a look at France.

The graph gives no indication exactly how much tax was collected, when it was 90% I'd bet money it wasn't much.

The vast majority of revenue collected by income tax comes from the middle and lower tax brackets, because thats where the collection pool is widest. A 90% top marginal rate would do almost nothing except make minimization exceptionally aggressive.

But don't worry vash, you've linked to a graph.

Before posting again Vash keep in mind also you're talking about the wrong tax rate. Hogfather linked to a article about COMPANY tax rates. At least in Australia companies have always had a flat tax rate, and to my knowledge this is also the case in the States. You don't know what you're talking about.
07:15pm 27/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25813 posts
Once upon a time I'd post The Beatles Taxman song whenever I saw the 90% tax rate mentioned but it appears Youtube have cracked down on all of The Beatles songs :(
07:23pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5280 posts
In the states, company tax rates, and receipts have dropped since the 50s.

http://i.imgur.com/APuLVCH.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/AOiSz3i.png

Might give a hint to the cause of the world's economic woes. The shareholders are doing alright i suppose.
08:18pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18373 posts
That last chart can simply be explained that productivity has increased along with the advent of personal computer systems that can often allow a person to do much more, with similar effort and time.

So perhaps people decided that the amount they are getting paid for the amount of work they are doing is fair. As they aren't necessarily doing more work, yet are still being more productive.

08:34pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18374 posts
Tell us more about the reasons for this rule before going on toll please.


Oh hey, I forgot about how you just ignore stuff when it doesn't follow your narrative and then just attempt to deflect to something that does over and over and over until people just give up. Seems to be working for you so far.

Read up on why the Goldwater rule and how psychiatric interviews aren't the be all and end all of diagnosis, nahh. Instead just attack, deflect, rant and ramble. You're good at that.
08:38pm 27/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2494 posts
Jesus Vash, Now you link to two charts which don't show the company tax rate and you link it to a drop in personal income tax rates which coincides with an increase in the overall share of the tax burden paid for by income tax.

IE income tax rates dropped, but more tax share was collected by taxing personal income.

If you had a point it is utterly lost on me.

What do you propose my narrative in relation to trump is Toll?
09:58pm 27/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1285 posts
133 pages in the second thread.....

Its definitely time for an intermission break.








10:23pm 27/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3255 posts

Ah you're right Pete, it's just Seoul and surrounds.

South Korea's capital city, Seoul, is a so-called megacity with a whopping 25.6 million residents living in the greater metropolitan area. It also happens to be within direct firing range of thousands of pieces of North Korean artillery already lined up along the border, also known as the demilitarized zone. Around 70 percent of North Korea's ground forces are within 90 miles of the DMZ, presumably ready to move south at a moment's notice.

Simulations of a large-scale artillery fight between the North and South produce pretty bleak results. One war game convened by the Atlantic back in 2005 predicted that a North Korean attack would kill 100,000 people in Seoul in the first few days alone. Others put the estimate even higher. A war game mentioned by the National Interest predicted Seoul could be hit by over half-a-million shells in under an hour. Those results don't bode well for one of Washington's closest allies, or for the tens of millions of people living in Seoul.

As if that were not enough, North Korea has a robust chemical weapons program. South Korea's Ministry of Defense estimates that its northern neighbor has between 2,500 and 5,000 metric tons of chemical weapons, including sarin and VX nerve agents.


It looks like all the military analysis on war with NK is basically a real fubar, with massive losses for South Korea and Japan, but a eventual win for the US and it's allies (presuming it doesn't escalate to include China and Russia which is then WW3 territory), and a fairly terrible aftermath.

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/4/19/15355494/north-korea-nuclear-threat-missiles-weapons
12:43am 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38907 posts
A lot of these analyses seem to assume South Korea is expected to sit there and wait to be saved by the USA. But they have a population twice that of North Korea and vastly better equipped armed forces and have lived in a hair trigger environment with madmen above them for decades. I suspect they follow the "speak softly but carry a big stick" school.

It's all a bit of a s****how. Can't we all just get along?
01:30am 28/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3256 posts

Ah, on the contrary I think those analyses assume full South Korean and Japanese engagement. However it seems a lot of the North Korean, and US forces stationed in North Korea, would be wiped out in the early exchanges due to the artillery / missile / chemical weapon setup the North has. And they expect some kind of ballistic missile attacks on Japan. So it'd be additional forces engaging after that, and in a right mess, as it seems they think the North would target the South's nuclear power plants, and even launch nukes.

https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2.png

North v South is a interesting comparison: https://southfront.org/north-korea-vs-south-korea-comparison-of-military-capabilities-what-would-new-war-in-korea-look-like/

You'd have to hope all their equipment being pretty old would be a big detractor in their combat ability.

I was totes wondering about what South Korea might have up their sleeves. I even imagined a hair brained scheme where they evacuate the whole of Seoul overnight or a few days or something. If the Ruskies could relocate their entire wartime industrial manufacturing from the eastern front to Siberia or thereabouts back in the 40's, surely something like that is poss now. Or maybe they have crazy tunnel networks or something. But if they did, wouldn't we of heard about it?


04:17am 28/04/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3257 posts
Here you go trog, we're not so different!

05:03am 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38910 posts
I was totes wondering about what South Korea might have up their sleeves.
yeh, that's kind of what I mean. I think South Korea are a little more subtle & classy about displays of their military power. I don't think they've sat there for decades with ALL of them playing Starcraft though.

I wish I knew some Koreans who lived there so I could actually just f*****g ask them what's going on because if I've learned anything from living overseas for 3 years is that not being on the ground is a /totally/ different experience.
05:06am 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38911 posts
That video did not change my perception of North Korea :P
05:12am 28/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2495 posts
I don't think they've sat there for decades with ALL of them playing Starcraft though.


Maybe that is their secret plan. A whole generation of generals with sick micro.
06:58am 28/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5281 posts


Always words of wisdom from this man.
"We can't go around threatening international force when we're so close to destroying ourselves"
Interventions need to stop. Far too much at stake nowadays.

North Korea's only interest is preventing American invasion.
07:26am 28/04/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16721 posts
wtf Vash what motivation would the US have of invading NK in 2017.

That last chart can simply be explained that productivity has increased along with the advent of personal computer systems that can often allow a person to do much more, with similar effort and time.

Automation is scary.
08:05am 28/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2496 posts
Say what you will, but Kim Jung Un has really cracked down on obesity.
08:09am 28/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2497 posts
Jesus its impossible to take that clown seriously anymore. under a minute and he is factually wrong.

the 1994 framework solved the nuclear question and that wascally Gdubbya ruined it. Meanwhile in the real world

Joel S. Wit, State Department Coordinator for implementation of the Agreed Framework (1995-2000)[29] during the Clinton administration, stated that "we did know about the DPRK cheating on the highly-enriched uranium front starting in 1998."


So they probably never stopped.

How do you "not quite live up to" your obligation not to build nukes. You're either building them or you're not.

08:32am 28/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5282 posts
wtf Vash what motivation would the US have of invading NK in 2017.


The same motivation the U.S has for all it's military presence in the world. regional control & pumping the industrial military complex.
What was Bush's motivation for invading Iraq? Certainly not for WMDs.
08:36am 28/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2498 posts
08:46am 28/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12730 posts
The UN released a report last week showing North Korea had mastered Solid Fuel in their Missiles. This means they dont have to fuel their Missiles before launch. Its far more stable and lifts their Ballistic Missile program in to the big time.

http://warisboring.com/north-koreas-solid-fuel-missiles-are-scarier-than-another-nuclear-test/

I think this ends with Kim Jr being assassinated. He is young and would have no long term supporters inside the inner sanctum that actually run the Country.
I still dont think we will see a War.
NK were going to test a Nuke, they didnt, they blinked.

I have a cunning plan, buy off the NK leadership. Give them big bags of money and immunity from any prosecutions in a "World Court" they could live in China.
China to administer NK with a view to unification.

There could be no American Troops allowed in NK, psychologically the NK people would be devastated, many would fear a genocide, mass suicides, a situation similar to that which faced America when Japan surrendered. Perhaps even worse would be what happens when the NK people find out the Truth.

Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of any criticism of Chinas island fortress expansion lately ? its disappeared off the news cycle.
"ok China its going to be like this, America will let you have that island fortress only if you get NK sorted"

01:11pm 28/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2052 posts
Surely cia wouldn't do another leader assassination? Or do you mean an inside job?

Unification of Korea would be good, not sure if China or Japan would like this as a unified Korea would be a massive power in the region due to combined economies.
02:40pm 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38912 posts

The UN released a report last week showing North Korea had mastered Solid Fuel in their Missiles. This means they dont have to fuel their Missiles before launch. Its far more stable and lifts their Ballistic Missile program in to the big time.

http://warisboring.com/north-koreas-solid-fuel-missiles-are-scarier-than-another-nuclear-test/
"The UN released a report"

link to thing that purportedly backs up statement about UN report that doesn't mention the UN report

no link provided to UN report or anything that even quotes it, or evidence that there is even such a report

I'm not saying there is no report but this kind of comment just makes it look like you're writing to a narrative. Why not link the report?! Why link something right after it that looks like it's backing up your comment but doesn't?! Are you a Russian disinformation agent? That would explain soooo many things.
06:39pm 28/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25814 posts
Just reading faceman's posts is a complete waste of time. Responding to them is something I can't even imagine myself doing it's so pointless.
06:46pm 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38913 posts
That implies that responding to anyone here has a point :D
06:49pm 28/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12731 posts
It takes several hours to fuel older Missiles and satellites spot the activity.
Solid Fuel Missiles can be launched in minutes.
NK have done five Nuke Tests, maybe something else has spooked the Americans.

This is the UN report.
http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2017/150
37. Rapid technological developments have taken place over a short period, resulting in significant progress towards an operational submarine-launched ballistic missile system. The shift from liquid- to a solid-fuel engine for the KN-11 is a major technological development, affording greater stability, quicker preparation and longer
fuel storage.

page 19 go a bit further and it explains where NKs Nukes might be heading.
NK Subs in International waters, carrying Nuke missiles ?


07:22pm 28/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38914 posts
I actually found that report when I was searching for references but couldn't find the word 'solid' in it so assumed it wasn't it - turns out Firefox PDF preview will download the whole doc but doesn't "load" it or something so search doesn't work.

So the ones that have been blowing up on the launch pad in the news recently, are they solid fuel or the older ones? edit: sounds like they think it was the new one but aren't sure warning piece of s*** auto playing video so I didn't get through the whole article
07:38pm 28/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1286 posts
Is NK is the new ISIS?
09:43pm 28/04/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13696 posts
Is NK is the new ISIS?


you're thinking of the far left
03:27am 29/04/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40562 posts
firefox, ewwwwwwww
06:15am 29/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12732 posts
A Ballistic Missile test today
KN-17 from a Sub.
Its one helluva game of Poker.

10:59am 29/04/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7631 posts
I think it's time to dust off my old Team America DVD
11:11am 29/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38915 posts
A Ballistic Missile test today
KN-17 from a Sub.
Its one helluva game of Poker.

yeh but one of the players appears to be nothin' but bluff
06:19pm 29/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12733 posts
They arent testing their guidance systems ?
Just demonstrating that they can use Solid Fuel ?
None have failed at launch.
70 miles in to the sky.

I was reading about their Satellite launch last year.
They claimed it was for Agricultural assistance to study NK land.
The Satellite did continual passes over America, not once over NK.
I dunno, choosing targets ?

Bonus Comment:
Fee increases for Uni ?
hang on is a Uni Debt a Good Debt or a Bad Debt ?
06:44pm 29/04/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38916 posts
but "The KN-17 is a single-stage, liquid-fueled missile -- not the three-stage, solid-fuel missile that North Korea successfully tested back in February, which caused more concern among Pentagon officials." (fox news reference and all)

I'll be honest, it is just hard for me to take the threat of N Korea seriously because they're such a pack of bumbling cartoon villian-esque buffoons. I mean assassinating a brother at an airport and all this posturing when they're basically a third world country with a few borrowed tricks from 1960s Russian and Chinese weapons? Come on. The one US carrier group parked off the coast probably has enough firepower to flatten the entire country several times over if they do anything stupid and that's ignoring whatever surprises S Korea has up their sleeve.

The whole thing just reeks of threat drama. Can't we just go back to being scared of the inconsequential statistically harmless threat of Islamic terrorism? Or even better, other forms of right wing extremist terror?!
07:24pm 29/04/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25817 posts
The thing is that if NK do something stupid and get wiped out there is an even bigger problem - the tens of millions of refugees that will all of a sudden have nowhere to go and no-one who wants them.
08:01pm 29/04/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12734 posts
The plume from the missile will reveal what it is, according to that pdf, page 19
It wouldnt be much chop if it was an older Missile.



08:59pm 29/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2499 posts
Can't we just go back to being scared of the inconsequential statistically harmless threat of Islamic terrorism? Or even better, other forms of right wing extremist terror?!


quick link to an article which says there have been more "right wing" terror deaths since 12 September 2001, doesn't define right wing terror, doesn't control for the trillions of dollars poured into preventing one and not the other, and then say that Islamic profiles are discredited (without detailing which profiles are and why) and the whole phenomena is driven by US imperialism.
11:01am 30/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5283 posts
Those trillions of dollars were really put to good use in Iraq.

Oh U.S Imperialism has no part in this whatsoever. No siree. The world police are protecting us by invading countries and creating more terrorism & refugees. Derp.
11:45am 30/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2053 posts

More right wing terrorism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/machete-attack-at-kentucky-transylvania-university/

Will the right wing community publicly condemn this attack?


12:25pm 30/04/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2500 posts
I expect they probably already have sir redhat. But interestingly, nobody was killed, and this will count as an "event" in exactly the same way 9/11 does, the stats that the CATO document refers to treat these kinds of events as indistinguishable.

When will you condemn antifa's actions at Berkley? Getting an unequivocal condemnation of political violence from the left wing is like pulling teeth (punching "nazis" anyone).

For example, trog just linked to an article which lays zero blame at the hands of Islamic doctrine for Islamic terrorism, and tries to make the utterly facile point that if you exclude most murders done in the name of Islam, most murders aren't done in the name of Islam.
12:37pm 30/04/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2054 posts

Punching Nazis is fine, I am not sure what happened at Berkeley.

I was being a bit facetious with that comment as the murdoch rags always are asking about when muslim leaders will publicly condemn an attack.

Why is Scott Ludlam so dreamy?
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2017/04/29/scott-ludlam-and-the-appeal-the-australian-greens/14933880004563

“THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BE WORKING REALLY STRONGLY FOR CLIMATE STABILITY, ECONOMIC JUSTICE, LESS VIOLENCE IN THE WORLD, AND A WORLD IN WHICH EVERYONE CAN GROW UP WITH SOME MEASURE OF EQUALITY AND OPPORTUNITY – I DON’T THINK THEY’RE RADICAL NOTIONS AT ALL.”


05:47pm 30/04/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1291 posts
11:56pm 30/04/17 Permalink
Vash
5284 posts
Why is Scott Ludlam so dreamy?


Because he's a green :)

Punching Nazis is fine, I am not sure what happened at Berkeley.


According to PP that makes you a terrorist.
08:51am 01/05/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1091 posts
09:53am 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2501 posts
According to PP that makes you a terrorist.


Only because it is vash, only because it is.

there is also the problem that the people struggling with this think anyone to the right of Elizabeth Warren is a nazi.

Nazi's have a constitutional right to march through Jewish neighborhoods in the US Vash. Expressing reprehensible views is constitutionally protected in the US, and threatening violence to intimidate someone out of their (even reprehensible) political views is the definition of terrorism.

Punching "Nazis" is wrong, and anyone who thinks otherwise has failed to think through the consequences.

But lets take it from another perspective, if the dude redhat linked to is a terrorist (and there is a reasonable case to be made he is) explain to me the meaningful difference between what he did and punching a "Nazi".

Tell us more about how NK is a capitalist state and the US needs to invade, but not actually invade, to get everyone on the same page as them (which is capitalism).

maybe you can link to a video of captain numb nuts Chomsky saying black is white and up is down.
10:43am 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5285 posts
Once again people like you don't learn from history. If you allow an ideology like Nazism to spread it's message, it becomes a larger force. More people agree with its message over time as the media blames 'immigants' or 'moslems' for the people's problems.

So PP, if people fail to suppress the Nazi movement, i think you fail to see the consequences of that.

Also, I guess the U.S is a terrorist organisation for spreading it's political influence over much of the world with violence.
11:07am 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2502 posts
oh so we should punch Nazi's because the US is at risk of becoming a Nazi state.

And the US is a terrorist organisation. Well done.

11:34am 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5286 posts
You'd be going full retard if you thought the risk wasn't there. And since you love being literal, then you should definitely think of the U.S as a terrorist organsation. Especially if you think punching a Nazi is terrorism.
11:38am 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2503 posts
Well there is the issue that the US is a sovereign state and so would be excluded from the typical definition of terrorism, but you know these are just details you needn't concern yourself with.

there is a risk the US will become a nazi state unless you punch "Nazis".

Ok the men in white coats are coming Vash.
11:49am 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5287 posts
terrorism - the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.


I don't see any mention of sovereignty in the definition. The U.S has invaded countries unlawfully. It has used violence & intimidation, and against civilians.

btw, i dont think the U.S is a terrorist organisation. I'm just pointing out that it's silly to be too literal.
12:23pm 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2504 posts
ah well actually, see the unlawful part?

International law is created between states, and it is assumed (since about 1640) that states are able to use violence.

So actually the definition does incorporate a key concept of sovereignty, but don't worry, these are details, you're not good with those.
12:27pm 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5288 posts
As i said, the U.S has invaded unlawfully in the past. Which includes breaking international law.
12:31pm 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2505 posts
oh yes? which countries and why Vash?

You can try to argue it all you want. Terrorism is not conducted by States. All the treaties surrounding it, and the actual laws preventing it, assume states don't conduct terrorism.

Invading countries is an act of War not terrorism. War is conducted between states. Terrorism conducted by non-state actors.

Which is why a group of private citizens running around thinking that the US is about to become a Nazi state so therefore they are allowed to attack people in the street, counts as terrorism and invading Iraq doesn't.

The mere fact of illegality in an invasion, doesn't not magically transmute the act into terrorism. This is because fundamentally states are able to define when the use of violence is authorized whereas private individuals are not (and this is the key distinction, you are apparently unable to grasp).

You, as per usual, do not know what you are talking about.
12:53pm 01/05/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9423 posts
The definition and misuse of the term terrorism has become so broad and blatantly used emotionally that it's getting to a point where a majority of people who use it can be seen as distorting facts and use it for political gain themselves. Once upon a time we could have a basic assault, robbery or attack on another and now they call it 'terrorism' to inflate the charges and severity and make people have an emotional response to allow them to get away with more far-reaching action as a response.
01:30pm 01/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2506 posts
I wouldn't disagree that the definition has broadened, but it has always been linked to politically motivated violence.

Punching Nazis because they are Nazis strikes me as straightforward example. particularly when they are constitutionally entitled to their speech, this is something the SCOTUS has been very very clear on.

Assault is still Assault, it is the addition of the political aspect that changes it.

I don't see what is so confusing about the claim, that dude who was menacing anyone who wasn't a republican was called a terrorist, and (provided the facts are as reported) I don't see a strong reason not to call it terrorism.

I can't remember a time when people thought it was OK to punch on because of a political disagreement.

I am prepared to have my mind changed, but what would you call hitting someone with the objective of intimidating them out of a political belief?
01:46pm 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5290 posts
I can't remember a time when people thought it was OK to punch on because of a political disagreement.


I sure can.
Happens all the time at local pubs.
Infact people have a good laugh about it all.

Unfortunately Nazi ideology is abit different to the usual lib & lab disagreements over a few beers.
04:44pm 01/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38917 posts
The thing is that if NK do something stupid and get wiped out there is an even bigger problem - the tens of millions of refugees that will all of a sudden have nowhere to go and no-one who wants them.
It's hard to know how much of a problem that will be I guess. They're not in the Middle East so the region is way more stable. Maybe wiping out the top echelon of NK will pave the way for revolution and democracy. But I suspect, sadly, you are right & what is more likely is fragmentation and civil war.
06:33pm 01/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38918 posts
The definition and misuse of the term terrorism has become so broad and blatantly used emotionally that it's getting to a point where a majority of people who use it can be seen as distorting facts and use it for political gain themselves. Once upon a time we could have a basic assault, robbery or attack on another and now they call it 'terrorism' to inflate the charges and severity and make people have an emotional response to allow them to get away with more far-reaching action as a response.
Yup. In the immortal words of Chris Rock, whatever happened to crazy?
06:35pm 01/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5291 posts
01:00pm 02/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12736 posts
This is beyond belief
Outgoing Human Rights Commission president Gillian Triggs, who defended widely condemned 18C actions against Queensland university students and the late cartoonist Bill Leak, is to receive a “free speech prize” from a civil liberties group. Liberty Victoria has bestowed Professor Triggs with its Voltaire Award for “her courageous stand on people’s rights, especially free speech.”

News of the award drew an angry comment from Tony Abbott, who claimed Professor Triggs was the “absolute arch enemy of free speech in this country” and said it represented “a warped sense of humour.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/gillian-triggs-to-receive-free-speech-prize/news-story/710f028f13648b58aa9f342b216b30f1

A Boy pretending to be a Girl is also getting the youth gong.



09:21pm 03/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2507 posts
here is a quite excellent article on politicized media.

This blog is well worth reading, he is a really balanced thoughtful dude.
01:06pm 04/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2055 posts
So uni fees eh?

Why not charge everyone who got a free degree first. Instead of some grad earning less than 50K?
05:02pm 04/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5295 posts
Those damn leaners trying to get a degree. They're only the future of the country and all.

06:12pm 04/05/17 Permalink
taggs
6478 posts
That was an interesting read pp.
08:01pm 04/05/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13700 posts
sure was
11:10am 05/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38923 posts
Macron looking like he's going to s*** it in. Everyone I know pretty happy right meow. I was in France yesterday & decided to come back before the election in case it turned into chaos but now I wish I'd stayed as I reckon it's going to be an epic party in Paris tonight!
04:26am 08/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7634 posts
Yep, silly Le Pen wanted to leave the EU... gg Le Pen
07:13am 08/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2056 posts
Some Frenchies I know voted just to not have le pen in.

https://i.imgur.com/riZbOY4_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&amp;shape=thumb&amp;fidelity=high
07:38am 08/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12740 posts
The EU limps on...
That Macron guy sure seems close to his Mum.

Meanwhile in Australia the One Nation wrecking ball visits The ALP
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/c0d161ac37bd655cfe4f56fc4ffef071

"If it aint White, it aint Right" - Sam Thaiday

Think thats bad ?
Wait til you see ALP member for China Sammy D putting down Western Sydney homes.

Prime Minister Brian Trunbull has nothing to fear from The ALP.
12:46pm 08/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5303 posts
All the alt righties butt hurt over this election result. What about our new world order!?
Now they think France is going to fall to Islam /groan
08:33pm 08/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7635 posts
cheese eating surrender monkeys

https://s13.postimg.org/6qhjhvh07/18342153_449172728748610_4304192679564809044_n.jpg







last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 22:30:15 08/May/17
10:28pm 08/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40573 posts
That Macron guy sure seems close to his Mum.


wow, facey killing it on the posts lately!

hahahaha
06:31am 09/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2508 posts
yeah well played faceman
11:04am 09/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12744 posts
I have to say this is shaping up as the best Labor Budget in years.
Plenty of handouts
The fact that we've almost overtaken Kazakhstan in Maths and Science means theres lots of handouts to Schools Billions over ten years
Theres even a bit of Dole Bludger bashing to keep the Right happy.

Even Low Income people will get a bonus $75 to help soften the blow of hundred dollar price rises in Electricity (cant wait for the Gas handouts in two years)

and finally some changes to Negative Gearing are... *Just Kidding*
06:34pm 09/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38928 posts
I can't find a good summary of the budget yet; anyone found one? Maybe just too early.
07:38pm 09/05/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1296 posts
Faceman is like our own personal Laurie Oaks with a hint of Joe Rogan.
07:53pm 09/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7637 posts
and finally some changes to Negative Gearing are... *Just Kidding*


Yep, I came to the conclusion many years ago that the Lib muppets will shut hospitals, close schools and run this country into the ground before they make even the slightest change to the worlds most generous property investor tax rort... I'm yet to be proven wrong.
08:20pm 09/05/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1297 posts
Yep, I came to the conclusion many years ago that


This is the problem facing progress...ppl are so stubborn, ppl have to add to what they know... not many ppl are free to discard what they have learnt.
08:48pm 09/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40578 posts
sigh, increases to medicare :(
05:18am 10/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18376 posts
Credit where credit is due,

This budget is surprisingly pretty good, at least compared to the previous decade.

The increased tax for NDIS, totally a subtle Slap by Turnbull to the Labor government more than anything else I bet. He most be loving that one.

Drug testing simply for being on welfare? That's bulls*** though. If you really want to test them then at least wait until they've shown good reason such as repeated failure to comply with job-seeking requirements (which are scientifically shown to be detrimental anyway...)

Not touching negative gearing? I guess that's an sweet emotionally charged area ripe for Election time shenanigans and leaving it until then... Stupid political games at the expense of the country.
09:46am 10/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25833 posts
In other news, Trump is using the office of the POTUS to intimidate witnesses and to fire the person investigating him.
11:28am 10/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5308 posts
Meanwhile T_D are chanting REEEs, pepes and keks with their glorious god emperor for such a move.

When Trump is impeached it will be pretty amusing witnessing the tears, considering how much they go on about liberal tears.
11:39am 10/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12746 posts
12:33pm 10/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12746 posts
12:33pm 10/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21248 posts
sigh, increases to medicare :(


the welfare you love so much has to come from somewhere matey.
12:34pm 10/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2512 posts
In other news, Trump is using the office of the POTUS to intimidate witnesses and to fire the person investigating him.


Guess he isn't a republican stooge that cost Hildog the election then.
12:50pm 10/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25834 posts
It doesn't rule that out.
03:00pm 10/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2513 posts
so the person who conducted a "bogus" investigation into Hillary to help the republicans could also be an investigative attack dog snapping at the heals of the POTUS in need of being sacked lest he uncover the horrible truth?
03:03pm 10/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25835 posts
When it comes to Trump any level of treachery and corruption is possible and it doesn't even really need to make any sense. Maybe he did Trump's bidding before, now Trump wants him to impede the investigation into his Russian ties, Comey won't or can't do it, so Trump fires him.
03:55pm 10/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2514 posts
yeah ok.

Could also be that Comey has been running his piehole in ways that are frankly a disgrace to the office.

I doubt the sacking of Comey will have any particular import for the Russian affair, particularly as he said at the outset that is was a counter-intelligence investigation and not a criminal one. So they are not investigating Trump for impropriety, they are looking into Russia attempting to influence the election. There may or may not be a connection there. So far the best we've seen is a bizarre story about hiring hookers to piss on a bed the Obamas slept in. and you have to overlook it is Putin's geopolitical interest to cast doubt over US elections because it lets him do the whataboutery dance for his own rigged elections, IE Putin doesn't need trump to have a reason to f*** with the States.

The timing is pretty bad, but the Dems have been calling for him to be sacked since the election, the speed with which they now claim the sacking of someone *who they want sacked* is "Nixon rising" makes my neck hurt. John Podesta of "use the word password as your email password when your the chair of the DNC" fame was calling for comey to be sacked less than 8 hours ago. Now he says the sacking is a coup.

But yeah it could also be the lap dog (who has been a demonstrably terrible lap dog) refused orders. that's not impossible. In the same way its not impossible the moon is made out of cheese.
04:23pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40580 posts
the welfare you love so much has to come from somewhere matey.


i prefer it comes from people who can afford it (ie people getting mad hookups through old boys) and businesses. The people who should be paying more tax, but dont.
05:40pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40582 posts
Lolz high earners (ie politicians) get a tax cut out of this budget
06:13pm 10/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12749 posts
WTF ?
Drug Tests for the Dole ?
Pot is now Legal in many places in the developed World.
How embarrassing for Australia.

Crazy Cat Lady Lambie claims some members of Parliament use Drugs.
How about we test them too ?
or what about Breath Tests for Politicians before they get to vote for Legislation in the chamber ?

07:08pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40583 posts
yer, i got no issues with durg and alcohol testing politicians if they feel its necessary to test dole recipients.

fair is fair.

not sure that the league players are leaving any durgs for anyone else though.
07:14pm 10/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7639 posts
Housing Affordability

AHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA HA HA HAHA HAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA AH AH AH AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHA HA HAHAHAHAH HAHHHHHAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAAAHHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAAHHAAHAHAAAAAAA HAHAAAA AHAHAAHAHAAAAAHAAA

08:30pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5309 posts
Murdoch media being cute again
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_bG22pUMAA2PLw.jpg

Could you imagine these front pages if Labor introduced a new tax?
09:04pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1094 posts
NT News just don't give a f*** about the budget. They've got far more exciting news for the front page.
09:43pm 10/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38932 posts
I feel like the only time I ever see the NT News cover it has a croc attack on it
10:34pm 10/05/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1095 posts
trog: Oh, you're a daily reader?
10:56pm 10/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12751 posts
01:44am 12/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5312 posts

Big banks chucking a hissy over the new tax. Suck it up sunshines. Absorb it with some of those neat billions in profits a quarter.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/banks-warn-on-unintended-consequences-of-new-tax-hit-20170511-gw2cg3.html

Also pretty damn surprised the Coalition would be the one to do it.


08:25am 12/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21253 posts
they will just pass it on, pretty much just a direct tax on everyone using a bank
08:39am 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2516 posts
I actually think that tax is designed pretty well.

Just refinance with the bendigo bank or something. You have to have over $100b under management to attract it (or something like that), so there is a case to be made it helps competition.
10:36am 12/05/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4009 posts
Yeah bank tax is fine, the big four are among the most profitable in the world, if they don't want to take the hit then people can move banks.

How much is drug testing people on the dole going to cost though? That seems like an overly expensive exercise. Sure drugs can be a problem but can you really afford a problematic drug addiction on the dole in the first place?
10:56am 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2517 posts
I can see the dole bludger bashing appeal of it, but I agree it seems like a pointless and needlessly intrusive exercise.
11:04am 12/05/17 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1851 posts
I can see the dole bludger bashing appeal of it, but I agree it seems like a pointless and needlessly intrusive exercise.


Not to mention expensive - I heard they're testing sewage to determine "hot-spots" for the testing...

How many millions will be spent on these weed smoker witch hunts exactly?

One starts to wonder who on the Liberals is going to be making a profit somehow...
12:29pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18377 posts

Of the hundreds of people I treated when I was an addiction medicine specialist, one really stands out in my memory. She was a young mother with two energetic children, who used to turn my office into a jungle gym. By the time we met, her heroin addiction had already robbed her of so much. About the only things she had left were her kids and the government support that helped her to take care of them while she received treatment at our clinic.

...

I’m grateful that after a long and difficult recovery, with many stumbles along the way, she is now able to hold down full-time employment and give her kids the kind of loving, stable home that they deserve. It was her face that flashed in my mind this week when I heard the government’s proposal to randomly drug test people on income support and tie their benefits to their drug use. If this policy was in place then, this young mother might not have turned her life around.

Frankly, she might be dead.



Taken from The Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/11/when-i-heard-about-welfare-drug-testing-i-thought-of-a-young-mother-i-once-treated?CMP=share_btn_tw

Tough love doesn't work. It creates people with f*** all empathy, but OK self-esteem that causes all sorts of socially destructive activities. It was good enough for them, so it's good enough for everyone. Except it wasn't actually good enough for them, they just believe it was, it's all they have ever known.
01:53pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2518 posts
she might not be toll.

dead that is to say. she may have turned her life around never the less. an emotional counter factual isn't an argument.

F***en the guardian.
02:04pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2059 posts

Yeah, the pubs are full in Martin Place and Pitt St every lunch, should we breathalyse finance workers too?

http://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/cocaine-dependent-liberal-staffer-says-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-well-overdue/


06:29pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40589 posts
drug testing the poorest in society is f*****g retarded.
06:38pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2060 posts
drug testing the poorest in society is f*****g retarded.

If only there was some kind of social experiment on decriminalising drugs on a major scale?
07:16pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2519 posts
07:25pm 12/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38935 posts

Yeah, the pubs are full in Martin Place and Pitt St every lunch, should we breathalyse finance workers too?

http://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/cocaine-dependent-liberal-staffer-says-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-well-overdue/


as far as I can tell London would shut down if they started alcohol testing people that worked in the city. I live & work across from a pub and every day I look out and see the suits there quaffing pints
07:57pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2520 posts
omg thats a similar thing to the budget.
08:30pm 12/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38936 posts
NYTimes on the NBN: How Australia Bungled Its $36 Billion High-Speed Internet Rollout. Lots of good shoutouts to local Brisbane companies!@#
08:46pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2521 posts
omg there are businesses in Brisbane who don't want to pay for broadband. F*** me dead. Dude did you get blown before posting that?
09:39pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5313 posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Binge


Excellent example of what happens when hard drugs are marketed to the ill with minimal regulation, en masse.

Also interesting how Alcohol use per capita during prohibition was 5 times higher than it is now.

Yep the drug testing thing is some real sad s***. especially testing sewerage for hotzones? Jesus.
As Senator Lambie knows, and many others who have been on welfare, it's not a desirable place to be and drug use is a coping mechanism for a feeling of hopelessness in these people.
What should be done, instead of cutting off payments, is getting the people sent to rehab or drug addiction counselling (depending on the drug in use)
Cutting off payments to a welfare dependent drug addict is just going to send them to the streets.
09:47pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2522 posts
oh so drugs should be banned then vash. I mean litterally the only time abuse happens is when someone has a deep psychological need to satisfy. Which totes explains ciggies.

I don't know a single person who "does" tabbaco who doesn't rock back and forth reaching for a pseudo mother's tit. the chemical addiction is totes and completely explainable by their abandonment issues.

f*** you are a dumb c***.
09:55pm 12/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5314 posts
Decriminalisation is not legalising drugs, FYI. Cigarettes continue to be smoked by people who have poor stress coping strategies. There's a reason they continue smoking while fully aware of the detriment to health, and it's alot more than craving a hit.

Also, for a business in Brisbane to afford broadband in an area with perhaps HFC or only copper option available, which both have very poor upload speeds, they'd have to choose something like T3 @ $3000 a month. Not exactly affordable for a small games developer, PP.
10:03pm 12/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38937 posts
Also, for a business in Brisbane to afford broadband in an area with perhaps HFC or only copper option available, which both have very poor upload speeds, they'd have to choose something like T3 @ $3000 a month.
The article cites an example of one company paying $1k/mo for 100mbit. I'd guess that's probably only feasible for most areas close to the city, at least in BNE.
10:51pm 12/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2523 posts
Cigarettes continue to be smoked by people who have poor stress coping strategies. There's a reason they continue smoking while fully aware of the detriment to health, and it's alot more than craving a hit.


You know for someone who likes to talk about tolerance and understanding of groups you sure do like to rely very very heavily on stereotypes. You really are the shallowest thinker I have ever encountered.

Also, for a business in Brisbane to afford broadband in an area with perhaps HFC or only copper option available, which both have very poor upload speeds, they'd have to choose something like T3 @ $3000 a month. Not exactly affordable for a small games developer, PP.


So what? The only concorde allowing me to fly between london and new york in under 4 hours used to cost over $10000 a seat. Not exactly affordable.
07:37am 13/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5316 posts
Heh thats funny coming from you PP. Considering you have a very shallow view of the drug problem.
People get addicted & stay addicted to drugs because they're addictive... That's about as shallow thinking as it gets my naive friend.

Some people are genetically predisposed to addiction, and most people have quit cigarettes upon learning the health detriments & increasing costs. Those who cannot, generally have more severe withdrawal symptoms, due to already having a deficit of dopamine release even prior to using the drug. Nicotine makes that even worse since in the long term it reduces the brain's ability to release its own dopamine.

Dopamine smooths out anxiety, stress and all kinds of mental crap that a person is dealing with.

So when people tackle the psychological side of addiction, its much easier to kick it.

So what? The only concorde allowing me to fly between london and new york in under 4 hours used to cost over $10000 a seat. Not exactly affordable.


Most of the western world can already get that concorde from London to NY far cheaper than us already. It's an economic handbrake. thanks LNP.
09:34am 13/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2524 posts
Yes people get addicted to addictive substances because those substances are addictive.

There is nothing "Naive" about that Vash, its just medically the case. Some substances will make you chemically addicted to them if you take them and others won't.

Nicotine is one of those substances. The idea that the only people addicted to smoking are those self medicating psychological issues is moronic (and a baseless stereotype).

That doesn't mean people don't become reliant on things for for non-chemcial reasons, but it is the case that specifically addictive drugs will make you chemically addicted to them if you take enough.

You don't have a counter argument for that Vash, you have a five minute animated video which appeals to your idiotic level of thinking.

Most of the western world can already get that concorde from London to NY far cheaper than us already. It's an economic handbrake. thanks LNP.


It would appear the point has sailed straight over your noggin. shocking I know.
10:27am 13/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12752 posts
07:30pm 13/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5317 posts
^Jesus was a socialist!~&

PP, people get addicted to what is mostly seen as non-addictive. Video games, reddit, porn.
Certain people will cling onto a drug that releases dopamine no matter what it is. If it is in tune with what their brain is responsive to.
And guess what, even things that aren't drugs can release so much dopamine for you that you become addicted.

What causes a dopamine deficit? Psychological issues, environmental, abandonment issues and lots of others.

Chemical drug addiction is only a very small part of the addiction process.
09:03pm 13/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2525 posts
Vash just because the term "addiction" gets thrown around a lot does not mean that people are actually addicted to s***.

Tasty food releases dopamine, but I am yet to hear of chronic apple abuse.

The chemical effect additive drugs have on the brain is the focus of all the medical literature I've read. I'm not a doctor so clearly I don't have a deep understanding of it (but even a surface level reading demonstrates you don't either), but the wiki article very clearly defines addictive substances as those which play on dopamine neural pathways, and other forms of addiction are so called to the extent the mirror the chemical induced effects of addictive drugs.

It is simply unarguable that if you smoke you will become addicted to nicotine. It isn't to do with dopamine deficits or mummy issues or what ever. The drug nicotine will get you hooked if you take enough of it.

Chemical drug addiction is plainly a key part of the process and to the extent the other issues are involved my suspicion would be on how effectively people are able to break addiction.

From the wiki article on addiction

There are a range of genetic and environmental risk factors for developing an addiction that vary across the population.[1][27] Roughly half of an individual's risk for developing an addiction is derived from genetics, while the other half is derived from the environment.[1] However, even in individuals with a relatively low genetic loading, exposure to sufficiently high doses of an addictive drug for a long period of time (e.g., weeks–months) can result in an addiction.[1] In other words, anyone can become an addict under the right circumstances.


IE some people due to a range of factors can become addicted to something more easily, but the nature of an addictive drug is such that anyone taking a sufficiently large dose will become addicted. So it is simply not the case that if you fix people's psychological issues addiction will become a thing of the past.

You don't know what you're talking about, again.
07:49am 14/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5320 posts
There are a range of genetic and environmental risk factors for developing an addiction that vary across the population.[


Did you miss something from your own quote? I never denied that drugs can be addictive on their own. I simply said that most drug addiction is caused by psychological problems.
It's a complicated problem, one that is definitely not as simple as "drugs are bad and should be banned, and drug users should be thrown in jail" as people on the right are restricted to thinking.
It's a health problem, and only the left seem to understand this. As well as many other problems firmly placed in reality.
09:03am 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2526 posts
Did you miss something from your own quote?

no, no I didn't. those risk factors are indicators of an enhanced vulnerability to the chemical effects, which strengthens my argument and weakens yours. these people who are very likely to become addicts, don't become addicted to milk. they get addicted to substances which have very specific effects on brain chemistry, and the thing that separates them as "high risk" is their vulnerability to those effects, so actually if you think about it, the risk factors demonstrate the primacy of the chemical addiction. but then logic has never been a strong suit of yours.

I never denied that drugs can be addictive on their own. I simply said that most drug addiction is caused by psychological problems.


This is straightforward contradiction.

Do you have any basis *whatsoever* to make the claim most smokers have psychological issues they are attempting to deal with by smoking? because it is the case that the vast majority of smokers are addicted to nicotine.

It's a complicated problem, one that is definitely not as simple as "drugs are bad and should be banned, and drug users should be thrown in jail" as people on the right are restricted to thinking.
It's a health problem, and only the left seem to understand this. As well as many other problems firmly placed in reality.


Yeah and there is the real thing you want to push. the left wing understands and the right wing doesn't. what a sad little man you are.

If heroin were fully legalised tomorrow (and magically socially acceptable as well), you would find in a years time large numbers of people with no particular psychological problems addicted to it, because it is addictive. does it mean everyone will be a homeless bum turning tricks for another hit? almost certainly not, but they will be addicted.

you are firmly not placed in reality me old mucker, if you are unable to appreciate this.

The video on addiction you linked too is was a farce. Pointing to Vietnam vets as a picture of successful reintegration into society after trauma is f*****g laughable. You only have to ignore, you know, reality to be making that case. Then it moves to medical use of opioids and conveniently overlooks the carefully designed drug regimen used along side the opioids specifically to address the addictive risk they present.

trying to draw an analogy between people who use a pain management drug course specifically designed to manage the addiction risk and people scoring smack on the streets to make the case that *everything we think we know about addiction is wrong and it isn't the chemicals* is f*****g retarded.
09:42am 14/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12754 posts
I could get Heroin in a couple of hours PP, prolly less than an hour.
Why arent I an Addict ?
I have Pot within arms reach, why arent I stoned ?
I have Booze in the Fridge, why arent I drunk ?
Drug Addiction is Narcissism, people fall in love with who they become on Drugs.

You are a Nanny State wowser like Tanaka Khan.
What other things would you like to have the State protect you from ?
Climate Change ? rofl
The Russians ?
Fast Food ?
Sugar ?

12:49pm 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2527 posts
So do you use a lot of Heroin Faceman? Because that probably has something to do with it.

But moreover, thank you for eloquently demonstrating the banality of this point:

the left wing understands and the right wing doesn't


Have you seen a single policy suggestion in my comments faceman?

policy should be informed by science wherever possible, and it is unequivocal that certain substances are addictive and others are not. moreover your list acknowledges it.

Why aren't you listing things like milk, apples, bread or Vegemite as things you aren't addicted to more or less remarkably?

and why are heroin detox programs long on methadone and short on drum circles?
02:13pm 14/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40593 posts
Tasty food releases dopamine, but I am yet to hear of chronic apple abuse.


i dont see a lot of apple abuse, but i see a f***ton of sausage roll abuse.

check out dem fatties
03:07pm 14/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25837 posts
Also gambling addiction.
03:08pm 14/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40594 posts
GAMBLOR
03:13pm 14/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12755 posts
it is unequivocal that certain substances are addictive and others are not.


Its not easy to become a Drug Addict.
It takes a lot of hard work to destroy yourself.

Heroin isnt walking around infecting people with Addictions.
Are you telling me if I waived a baggy of Heroin in front of you you would be compelled to turn into a Drug Addict ?

Its not easy to become a Drug Addict.
It requires a lot of very poor decisions and people who do not deal with problems in their lives are the most at risk because they are the ones who need to escape the prisons of their minds the most.

03:18pm 14/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40595 posts
Its not easy to become a Drug Addict.

yer it is, you just have to want to have a good time all the time.

that aint so hard.

just takes a bit of application.
03:24pm 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2528 posts
Jesus H Christ faceman.

No waiving a baggy doesn't instantly turn you into an addict, but neither is it the case that Heroin is a perfectly safe drug to use with no side effects unless you have a soul crushing story to share.

and unlike sausage rolls it is quite easy to accidentally kill yourself with heroin.

Just because certain activities share addictive qualities in common with addictive substances *does not mean* that certain drugs do not have a strongly chemical addictive quality which makes them more dangerous to use than other substances.

This is not controversial.
03:25pm 14/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12756 posts
You are describing the Dose, who decides the Dose ?
How many people died last year due to Heroin use ?
Subtract from that number those who died due to accidental overdose or suicide.

There isnt an epidemic of Heroin deaths apart from those caused by the flow-on effects of Prohibition. I think you have a romanticised Hollywood idea of what Addiction is without understanding what goes on in the mind. How do you explain other Addictions like Gambling that are not a substance ?
Obesity ?
Rapists
pedophiles
serial killers
anorexics

Destructive people will just use whatever is available.
You want to blame the Drug, the Gun, the short skirt.

03:58pm 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2529 posts
I didn't say there was [an epidemic of heroin deaths] Faceman, but you can't seriously be suggesting that consuming heroin is exactly as safe as eating a sausage roll.

I don't have a romanticized view from Hollywood, you're the one talking about serial killers ffs. Heroin is chemically addictive, when you can find a single medical doctor willing to refute that then there is something further to discuss.

The fact that people have a range of other health and psychological issues *says literally nothing* about the fact that heroin is chemically addictive.

There is nothing difficult about getting addicted to smoking. It is simply a matter of smoking enough smokes. If heroin was as available and socially acceptable as smoking, there would be nothing difficult about getting addicted to it either.

But more importantly what do you or vash for that matter thinks follows from that? I was addicted to smoking and my life didn't fall apart, and I am sure there are people addicted to heroin who can hold down a job. Doesn't change the fact they are chemically addicted to something.
04:09pm 14/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12757 posts
I think Society romanticises the Victim.
"oh that poor Girl has Anorexia, damn that disease."
"oh that person is Alcoholic, damn the disease"
they are not diseases, its stupid people choosing to continually do the same thing over and over and declaring themselves helpless victims.

Its much easier to blame Pot or Booze when people destroy themselves rather than laying responsibility on the people who make poor choices in their lives. Then Government decides to rescue us from the horror by Taxes or Laws.

get a load of this Woman being Triggered by a Flag
Its a choice.




04:43pm 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2530 posts
well thank you for that.

Here is a recipe I enjoy
05:56pm 14/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5321 posts
I tried a bunch of smokes when i was younger, never got addicted. My grandma has been on morphine for months, she didnt get addicted to heroin.

Many people play video games casually without becoming addicted. Many people use amphetamines daily without abusing it or becoming addicted.
Many people uses benzos to sleep without becoming addicted.

I think Society romanticises the Victim.


Faceman this is completely wrong. Anorexia & long term Alcoholism are caused by real mental illnesses, and those people need help.
Same with most drug addicts. Handing the problem to the justice system will make people like PP money but it doesn't help solve the problem.
06:03pm 14/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2531 posts
Handing the problem to the justice system will make people like PP money but it doesn't help solve the problem.


Oh yes how exactly moron.

did granny only take morphine? or was there a gradual scale back designed by someone who knew what they were talking about?

I guess cause you smoked half a f** once and didn't get addicted that whole "cigarettes are addictive" label on the packets is a bunch of baloney.

top shelf s*** moron.
07:00pm 14/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12758 posts
did granny only take morphine? or was there a gradual scale back designed by someone who knew what they were talking about?


you mean as in the way someone who actually knows the strength of the Dose can control how much they use safely ?

All Drugs are dangerous, its the dose that kills.
If you abuse a Drug it will have a negative effect on your Life but should all of Society be banned from using that Drug because some might misuse it ?
Nanny State.
07:18pm 14/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2061 posts


Here is a recipe I enjoy


That looks pretty tasty.

Looks like Best Korea is going to get some freedom soon.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-14/north-korea-fires-unidentified-projectile-south-korean-military/8524684
08:26pm 14/05/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1303 posts
Herring salad recipe bookmarked...

I knew this thread would come in handy one day.
12:53am 15/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38938 posts
If you abuse a Drug it will have a negative effect on your Life but should all of Society be banned from using that Drug because some might misuse it ?
Nanny State.
I'm curious to know if you think regulated alcohol is also nanny state
01:20am 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2532 posts
Herring salad recipe bookmarked...

I knew this thread would come in handy one day.


You're welcome.
08:18am 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5322 posts


Oh yes how exactly moron.

did granny only take morphine? or was there a gradual scale back designed by someone who knew what they were talking about?

I guess cause you smoked half a f** once and didn't get addicted that whole "cigarettes are addictive" label on the packets is a bunch of baloney.

top shelf s*** moron.


Addiction vs chemical dependence. Addiction is psychological craving for a drug or experience that changes your habits based on use, damaging lives & relationships.
Many Drugs that are non-addictive, cause chemical dependence as well, which require a gradual reduction of dose.

So, Grandma was not addicted to morphine, otherwise she would have continued to seek it once it had passed its use for pain relief.
10:44am 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2533 posts
So, Grandma was not addicted to morphine, otherwise she would have continued to seek it once it had passed its use for pain relief.


Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the medical professionals managing dosage risks. literally the only reason she didn't become addicted is she didn't have a sob story.

Dude get a grip. You are not going to find a single doctor who is willing to agree with you that morphine is addictive only when the patient has underlying psychological issues.

and the fact that this risk was professionally managed to a non-addicted out come doesn't change that.

Hence my comment that comparing clinical use of a morphine or heroin to street or recreational use is moronic. especially moronic if you then draw the conclusion that the substance itself is only a minor risk in the equation.

When you can find me a single doctor who is willing to prescribe morphine intravenously for a headache as a first option you'll have the ghost of a point.
03:07pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5323 posts
Hence my comment that comparing clinical use of a morphine or heroin to street or recreational use is moronic. especially moronic if you then draw the conclusion that the substance itself is only a minor risk in the equation.


There is little difference between medical grade Morphine & street Heroin. Actually im pretty sure hospital Morphine is the stronger version.
Just because it's applied in a medical setting, or prescribed (plenty of strong opiates prescribed outside hospitals) does not mean the person will not become addicted at a later date.
A person with psychological problems will remember how the drug made them feel, which many of them seem to describe as 'normal' rather than someone who already feels normal would not care to seek out that unnatural high.

People get addicted when they're looking to escape emotional pain. see my previous point on activities that aren't drugs, that can be just as addictive.


that morphine is addictive only when the patient has underlying psychological issues.


No one would make the claim that the *only* reason people become addicted is due to psychological issues, but it is a huge factor. You'll find plenty of papers regarding risk factors for addiction based on what i've been saying.
03:22pm 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2534 posts
Vash this is getting tedious.

The psychological risk factors all point toward an increased sensitivity to brain chemistry which is induced by the drug.

The fact that the brain chemistry can be induced by non-pharmaceutical means *does not mean* that the particular drugs are not addictive and that addiction is purely suffered psychologically.

There is little difference between medical grade Morphine & street Heroin. Actually im pretty sure hospital Morphine is the stronger version


Dude it is the doctor writing the prescription that is the part you are over looking. Morphine administered in a hospital is likely to be purer, but it is also radically less likely to be given in unsafe dosages (with the addictive does being considered as well as other risks) , because you know the doctors who know what they are f*****g doing.

Anyone can become addicted to an addictive drug, because that's what an addictive drug is. Just because some people take carefully considered doses and don't become addicts means that they haven't taken a large enough dose to get addicted nothing more nothing less.

The fact that dangerous dosage varies to person to person also doesn't address this.

If it were otherwise people with massively elevated psychological risk should theoretically be able to get a addicted to virtually anything, and that simply isn't the case. you don't find people addicted to sitting in their car in a car park.

I was addicted to smoking, but there is zero chance of me becoming a poker machine addict. I find them tedious beyond belief. The addictive drug nicotine on the other hand hooked me.

Considering the vast majority of addicts in our society are almost certainly accounted for by smokers, I'd say the drug is pretty f*****g important to the process.
04:02pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16742 posts
Tasty food releases dopamine, but I am yet to hear of chronic apple abuse.

Obesity epidemic thingy.
04:32pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5324 posts
Dude it is the doctor writing the prescription that is the part you are over looking.


Irrelevant. Oxycodone epidemic is a thing.
Also a constant ramping dose of Morphine at max dose for months on end should have caused addiction in Nan, it didn't.

I was addicted to smoking, but there is zero chance of me becoming a poker machine addict. I find them tedious beyond belief. The addictive drug nicotine on the other hand hooked me.


Same line of reasoning some people enjoy a certain hobby or food, and others do not. Your brain is responsive to Nicotine's dopamine release. Mine was not. People find the vice that melds with them.

The fact that the brain chemistry can be induced by non-pharmaceutical means *does not mean* that the particular drugs are not addictive and that addiction is purely suffered psychologically.


Addiction is caused mostly by psychological problems. Again, because it can be kicked off by many things that are not drugs.
Society demonises drug use yet you'll see people glorify Alcoholism as a badge of Honor. Alcohol can be as addictive as Morphine in alot of people.

Compulsive gambling for example causes the same dopamine release as many hard drugs. But for someone like you, it doesn't. Just like for me with Nicotine.

It's that compulsive need to fill a hole in one's life that leads to addiction.
04:37pm 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2535 posts
Also a constant ramping dose of Morphine at max dose for months on end should have caused addiction in Nan, it didn't.


gee I wonder what that max dose business is.

It's that compulsive need to fill a hole in one's life that leads to addiction.


No it isn't. a compulsive need to do something *is* addiction. You're essentially saying addiction causes itself.

I doubt many smokers have some psychological issue that are addressing by smoking. And you have provided zero evidence that is the case.
05:00pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5325 posts

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/teaching-packets/neurobiology-drug-addiction/section-iii-action-heroin-morphine/10-addiction-vs-dependence

Thus, it is possible to be dependent on morphine, without being addicted to morphine.


Two different brain regions determine addiction & dependency. A person being treated with Morphine, or a smoker, who uses the drug for awhile then stops, will of course experience withdrawal symptoms.

Drugs can cause dependency. Addiction is the psychological hole you're trying to fill.

You can't become dependent on Gambling, but you can become addicted to it. So with that you could probably figure out that most people who continue to smoke despite the negative health consequences have a psychological problem.
05:20pm 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2536 posts
You *really* need to stop quoting the first google string that pops up without reading the document.

from the same document

Addiction is a state in which an organism engages in a compulsive behavior, even when faced with negative consequences.


IE addiction can't be caused by a compulsive need to do something, because it is a compulsive need to do something.

A major feature of addiction is the loss of control in limiting intake of the addictive substance.


Its almost like some substances have a particular effect which people become addicted to or something.

So with that you could probably figure out that most people who continue to smoke despite the negative health consequences have a psychological problem.


You have literally no basis to make that claim.

Here is a simple thought experiment for you Vash.

Of the set of people who have gambled what percentage have become addicted.

and of the set of people who have smoked what percentage have become addicted.

If the percentage of addicted smokers is waaaay higher(which is almost certainly the case) than the percentage of addicted gamblers, you might reach the conclusion that nicotine is playing some important role.

The fact that gambling can effect brain chemistry and for some people can become addictive, does not establish that nicotine or morphine in and of itself is not addictive. and the fact that you Nan didn't become addicted also doesn't change that.

It isn't "demonizing" drugs to point out that some of them are addictive, and it is simply not the case that only high risk people will become addicted to them.
06:21pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5326 posts
Im not sure how that contradicts what im saying. Drugs can be addictive. Yep we both know that. That part of the document doesn't mention the further complexities of the cause of Addiction, only the result.

I doubt you'd find a survey showing the amount of people who tried smoking and didn't get addicted. There's also the subjective view on how many cigarettes a day is actually addiction, some people seem to enjoy it rather than need to use it.
Such as social smokers, just like social drinkers.

And i dont believe i have stated at any point that those drugs are not addictive. My point is they can be as addictive as non drug activities, and they should all be all treated as mental health problems.

If gambling isn't a good example for you, how about smartphone addiction, or Facebook? Porn? Sugar?

Countless non drug examples of addiction that hook people in via the same reward pathways as Nicotine & other addictive drugs. Again, people are filling a hole. As that very informative 5 minute video details, people will latch onto something when things arent going well in life or they suffer some mental illness.
06:57pm 15/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38940 posts
There is little difference between medical grade Morphine & street Heroin. Actually im pretty sure hospital Morphine is the stronger version.
I find this hard to believe. Casual search tells me "Triangulating data from three forensic laboratories reveals an average UK purity for heroin at 43%." Is medical-grade 100% though?
07:41pm 15/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12759 posts
I'm curious to know if you think regulated alcohol is also nanny state


Unregulated Alcohol kills people in the 3rd World.
As a Conservative I have to admit that this regulation is a good idea that delivers a quality product with a verifiable dosage.

A major problem with Heroin is its unknown ingredients.

What Vash and I believe is that many Drugs are very dangerous.
It takes Intent, a choice, an uncontrollable desire/lust to become an Addict.
One can become Intoxicated, but repetitive intoxication is a choice.

I enjoy a drink from time to time (and posting on QGL) but for me I can enjoy drinking two nights a week, anymore than that and I dont enjoy it or rather I need to drink a lot more to get the same buzz and feel worse the next day.
A reasoned mind says thats a bad idea, a person who has an underlying psychological issue might just start drinking again to avoid a hangover and eventually it might become every day.

I dont think you can be a sane Heroin Addict, you can be a sane Heroin user though (not something I would choose) To become an Addict there is something that needs to be driving you to Addiction to overcome your sane reasoned mind.

07:47pm 15/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38941 posts
Unregulated Alcohol kills people in the 3rd World.
it kills people in the first world too!
What Vash and I believe is that many Drugs are very dangerous.
yeh so it makes sense to me that, as long as people want to keep taking them, they are made available in the safest and most controlled manner possible.

We can't stop people wanting to have them - and I'm not convinced we should because freedom, right? Literally everything else we've tried in the war on drugs has been more or less a staggering failure.

I get what you're saying about it being a "choice" although I disagree in some cases. I think it's a bit flippant to just write off the power of addictive substances as just "bad choices"; it trivialises a complex issue that touches on socio-economics & physiology. A family member of mine died from heroin abuse; she came from a good background, well off family, all that stuff. None of the usual things you'd associate with heroin addicts. I think heroin must just be really f*****g awesome for some people and they simply can't get past it.
08:23pm 15/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2537 posts
My point is they can be as addictive as non drug activities


Yes and this is the part that simply is not true.

What does it mean to say "as addictive"?

Too me someone with a massively high risk of getting addicted to stuff is self evidently the wrong metric. the fact that people can get addicted to stuff plainly does not entail that all things are equally addictive.

The metric is of something being more or less addictive is its effect on otherwise healthy people.

lets accept sugar or smartphones or whatever, they all act on the same brain chemistry I understand this, but they do it more or less effectively.

Unless you have compelling evidence otherwise I simply refuse to believe if you gave 1000 people a smartphone (or sugar, or porn, or gambling, or alcohol) and 1000 people heroin exactly as many people would walk away addicts from both groups. I think you would see substantially more Heroin addicts than any others that I mentioned.

IE Heroin is more effective at inducing the brain chemistry associated with addiction than smartphones.

And the argument that all or even most addiction stems from self medication of a preexisting psychological condition is plainly false, because nicotine would easily account for most legal drug addiction and you have yet to provide any reason to suppose that most smokers are self medicating.

As it relates to illegal drugs such as heroin, hardcore abuse probably is associated with with psychological issues, and I accept that it being illegal probably has a strong effect on that association. But the fact remains Heroin is a strongly addictive drug and probably more so then any "behavioral" addiction your going to be able to point to. and the flip side of it's illegality is that you are not able to point a reasonably comparable sample size with gambling.
09:07pm 15/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5327 posts
she came from a good background, well off family, all that stuff. None of the usual things you'd associate with heroin addicts. I think heroin must just be really f*****g awesome for some people and they simply can't get past it.


Yep ive read a few case studies like this. Generally the person has an underlying depression or some other disorder that no one knew about.
There is simply no other reason for a person to seek out these drugs, they're doing it to self medicate something.
Drugs will feel excessively good for certain people.

Here's another Dr Salopsky lecture that shows the highest dopamine boost comes from intermittent expectation of reward. So this is why Gaming or Gambling can be extremely addictive and life damaging, just as much as very addictive drugs. And this spreads into things like social media, mobile apps etc.
Another 5 min video PP, you love those.



This shows that the chemical dependence doesn't always lead to the addiction. Addiction to things that aren't drugs cause the exact same behavioral & lifestyle problems seen in hard drugs.
07:49am 16/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2538 posts
oh my word you tedious dolt.

I don't know what you think that video showed. It didn't address the point at all.

For the final time, the fact that some people can get addicted to gambling or gaming or what ever does not mean that those things are equally as addictive as hard drugs.

In the video he talks about dopamine being a driving factor in completing a degree and working at career progression, does that mean now going to work is a sign of addiction?

until you provide some good reason to think that there is no on average difference in resultant addiction between exposure to gambling and exposure to heroin, this:

So this is why Gaming or Gambling can be extremely addictive and life damaging, just as much as very addictive drugs.


is a meaningless statement.
09:29am 16/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5328 posts
No study can make that comparison yet, because we simply can't monitor dopamine levels in a live human brain yet.
We can compare mice levels between drugs but there's no rat porn or gambling that I know of.
So we look at behavior. Can Gambling be just as addictive heroin? Absolutely. You'd be silly to discount it with the above information.

What about those old everquest players, sacrificing marriage, job, everything just to get their gaming fix. Sounds alot like what are heroin addict does to continue using.
09:43am 16/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2539 posts
this means:
No study can make that comparison yet,


you saying this:
Can Gambling be just as addictive heroin? Absolutely.

is you talking out of your ass. But I don't accept that you directly need to test brain dopamine levels to make an assessment of a substance addictiveness. You could make a reasonable assumption about it from the number of addicts compared to the general using population.

the fact that some people can get addicted to gambling or gaming or what ever does not mean that those things are equally as addictive as hard drugs.


I am not saying people don't get addicted to gambling. I am saying there is no good reason to think gambling is as addictive as Heroin. it isn't possible to put that claim in plainer English.

and for accusing me of having a naive view of addiction you're the one who seems to think anything less than nakedly suicidal levels of addiction don't seem to constitute addiction.

Let me give you an example.

The late great Christopher Hitchens was by any reasonable standard addicted to alcohol. He openly stated he drank a significant amount daily, and his wife described him as a high functioning alcoholic. There is an interview out there with him, in which he says, he will have had a drink by 1pm on any normal day. He said he could go for days without a drink if he wanted to, but if it became apparent he couldn't get a drink on any particular day he would be angry (perhaps upset would be a better term).

ultimately he died of cancer related strongly to tobacco and alcohol use.

Now he was able to carry on a full time job and maintain a considerable social circle, and be a public intellectual. It isn't clear by your talk you consider that addiction proper. But I don't think there is any particular reason not to call him an addict of both alcohol and nicotine.

so then the question becomes, if heroin were as socially acceptable as smoking or alcohol, would you see more or less addiction of heroin then other acknowledged addictions? That is the measure of "addictiveness", not the fact that some people are particularly adept at self-destruction.
10:00am 16/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5329 posts
So Hitchens was a functioning alcoholic, like many functioning heroin, coke & meth users, and casual gamblers, gamers & whatever else there is that has potential to ruin your life.
The level of the psychological hole you're trying to fill determines how much the addiction works its way into your life. With that i'll end it since we're just heading in circles now.
10:23am 16/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2540 posts
The level of the psychological hole you're trying to fill determines how much the addiction works its way into your life.


No please continue offering baseless assertions.
10:31am 16/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18380 posts

I don't accept that you directly need to test brain dopamine levels to make an assessment of a substance addictiveness.


That's because it isn't dopamine that is the biological marker for chemical addiction. That would be deltaFosB, even then it takes more than that for addiction to take place. As people in hospitals who take s*** loads of morphine only rarely develop addiction when they leave.
There is significant involvement with the environment the person lives in, particularly the social aspects.

As such, non-chemical addictions can be just as pervasive as chemical addiction when it comes to damaging a persons life, and in some ways can be harder to stop than a chemical addiction alone.

Vash, you need to read up on Rat Park and the research surrounding it.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 20:10:35 16/May/17
08:09pm 16/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5330 posts
Rat park is the specific research I'm referring to. It's mentioned in that addiction video.
The psychological side of addiction is important, which is what rat park is based on.
I know about deltafosb, but that's getting abit technical. There's a chart somewhere showing what activities and drugs activate deltafosb.
08:16pm 16/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18381 posts
It's not so simple, different individual make-ups also influence how sensitive a person is to addiction. For some high impact activities may not trigger the addiction pathway, where for others it may.

That's why you can't just go on biological markers as counting for addiction. In the end addiction is a social construct, it's when a person engages in activities that the general society deems as inappropriate and destructive. Usually it also needs to involve a level of self-awareness in wanting to stop or reduce, but not being able to.
However people need others to bounce their perception of self off, in other words you can't assess your own behaviour in a meaningful way without having others around and thus the motivational want to change will be minimal without others, addiction doesn't exist to the isolated person, they are just living. So you need others to decide if you are addicted or not, or more accurately the perception of what others might think.

Non chemical addiction is every bit as real as chemical addiction. Don't focus too hard on the underlying biology of a specific biochemical process (that is only inferred as to what it does).

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:11:58 16/May/17
09:10pm 16/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2541 posts
Interestingly if you go to the wiki page for rat park there appears to be trouble in paradise

Further studies failed to reproduce the original experiment's results. One of those studies found that both caged and "park" rats showed a decreased preference for morphine, suggesting a genetic difference.


Oh dear. from one of the failed replications.

These data indicate that while social isolation can influence levels of heroin self-administration, isolation is not a necessary condition for heroin or heroin or cocaine injections to be reinforcing.


The five minute video was misleading about the nature of a complex issue. Imagine my surprise.
10:10pm 16/05/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
709 posts
I find this hard to believe. Casual search tells me "Triangulating data from three forensic laboratories reveals an average UK purity for heroin at 43%." Is medical-grade 100% though?

Heroin and Morphine are both opiates but have slightly different chemical structures, or rather very similar chemical structures. They're both drugs used in the medical field. Purity refers to how much of the drug you're getting in X amount. AFAIK no drug in tablet/powder form is 100% pure, there is always filler or binder or other products required for absorption. The difference between paracetamol from coles and from your backyard junkie is you know you're ingesting exactly 500mg/tablet vs whatever the guy cut it with.

Too long didn't read, "medical grade" is dumb term. Vash has it wrong way around, heroin is much stronger because it can crosses the blood brain barrier a lot easier.
11:52pm 16/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5331 posts
Even more to my point, PP. Thanks for the link. Which I mentioned, Genetic differences also create psychological problems, as well as environmental.

Medical grade Morphine is more pure, street Heroin is very commonly cut. But you're right, the chemical structure shows heroin to be more pure. Medical grade as in, produced by pharmaceutical companies rather than produced in the black market.
This is why people OD and possibly die if they suddenly get a very potent batch.
In hospitals they apply the drug slowly to reduce the chances of addiction, as speed of application is also a predictor.
That's why cigarettes are more addictive than NRT lozenges.

So that's the reason i think drugs should be decriminalised and given by government in a clinic safely, and direct people into therapy to figure out the psychological problem.
01:53am 17/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40596 posts
i like brain ice cream.
06:08am 17/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18382 posts

Interestingly if you go to the wiki page for rat park there appears to be trouble in paradise

Further studies failed to reproduce the original experiment's results. One of those studies found that both caged and "park" rats showed a decreased preference for morphine, suggesting a genetic difference.


Oh dear. from one of the failed replications.


If you go past wiki and look elsewhere, you'll find that there also studies that replicate similar findings as the original.


Effects of chronic nicotine administration on locomotion depend on rat sex and housing condition.


We could probably cherry pick research articles all day, the bottom line is addiction is far more complicated than simply, ingest chemical - get addicted and very, very likely has a significant social component.

Also, the whole point of Rat Park was mostly to show that the cage environment can have significant outcomes to the experiment and conclusions based on observed behaviour should have that kept in mind. In many research papers that I've read, such conditions were rarely discussed.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:22:51 17/May/17
08:21am 17/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18383 posts

Medical grade Morphine is more pure, street Heroin is very commonly cut. But you're right, the chemical structure shows heroin to be more pure.


What? How does a chemical structure show something to be pure or not? I think you've miss-communicated what you mean.
08:52am 17/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5332 posts


What? How does a chemical structure show something to be pure or not? I think you've miss-communicated what you mean.


Yeah i was typing on my phone, i meant that the chemical structure shows Heroin to be more potent. Similar with amphetamine > methamphetamine. Same drug but meth is more potent because it is more efficient at hitting the brain faster & for longer. Something to do with the additional methyl group, but i dont fully understand it yet.
09:09am 17/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5333 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/could-human-connection-end-the-war-on-drugs/8528354

This article is good timing. There definitely seems to be a correlation between the rise of mental illness & increased use of OTC opiates like codeine.
09:44am 17/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2542 posts
Even more to my point, PP.


Cuts directly against your point actually. but nevermind


Toll failed replication points to the rat park experiment "throwing *everything* we know about addiction out the window" being at least a questionable claim. For example was it ever really considered the case that environmental concerns play no role? The fact that Heroin is prescribeable (and has been since long before the experiment was conducted) by a doctor under certain situations and not by the general public seems to suggest otherwise.

I am not saying

1. environmental factors play no role or an unimportant role
2. you just take a drug and days later you're a heroin zombie.
3. prohibition is an effective way to manage the drugs, I would be fully supportive of lifting prohibition and allowing a tightly regulated market to form. (and a fully medical approach to addiction).
4. that non-chemical addiction cannot be dangerous or non-pervasive.

what I am saying, is that if you want to say the chemical itself plays only a minimal role I think the burden of proof is on you. and literally nothing vash has linked to, changes that.

I am also saying that comments like these:

The level of the psychological hole you're trying to fill determines how much the addiction works its way into your life.


Offer absolutely no advance whatsoever on the take drug become heroin zombie point of view. and are arguably less nuanced than the chemical claims.

If you want to make the claim that the drug is only minimally important you need to have some cogent explanation why only certain drugs have addictive qualities and only certain activities have addictive qualities.

I am also saying that comparing medically administered morphine to street or recreational use to make a broad claim about the necessity of psychological issues is overlooking a major elephant in the room ie the medical professionals explicitly managing dosage.

I am also saying that pointing to non-chemical addictions and saying hey look people can be self destructive non-chemically does literally nothing to establish that a highly illegal drug carries the same or similar risks as that activity.

It isn't news that people can be self destructive, the concern behind the ban on these drugs is that they can create self-destructive behavior in otherwise healthy people.

Too me it is a no brainer that if a person was to start using heroin or cocaine recreationally with no particular psychological issues, and no particularly dangerous environmental risks could start to become dangerously addicted simply in virtue of having taken the drug.

For example in all of Vash's waffle, the possibility that prolonged drug use can cause mental illness has not been seriously entertained, so instantly his claim about the depth of psychological issues being the cause of dangerous abuse is in trouble.

I am happy to be corrected on any of that, but nothing pointed to so far does.
10:06am 17/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5334 posts
What's more likely PP? The user, unbeknownst to themselves, might be suffering depression, anxiety and are looking for relief, and seeks it out via street drugs.
Or a person happy with how their life is going, decides hey lets try drugs, gets hooked and then they become depressed & anxious. The latter sure happens (probably more from binge drinking than anything), but i would say considering the statistics coming out on mental health nowadays, and the increasing stressors of modern life, its more likely the former.

There's the example of soldiers during the Vietnam war (mentioned in the 5min video) self injecting heroin for most of the war, and upon returning home to family, the addiction quickly dissipated.
11:07am 17/05/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18384 posts

Yeah i was typing on my phone, i meant that the chemical structure shows Heroin to be more potent.


Except the chemical structure of heroine is actually not more potent. It's effectively a prodrug of morphine. What makes it used is that it crosses the blood-brain barrier very quickly and easily as heroine and then once in the brain it is then rapidly deacetylated into a couple of compounds and soon after to morphine, bypassing 1st pass metabolism.
So it is essentially the same as a much higher dose of morphine .. well with the addition of a much more rapid onset of effect, which plays a significant role in addiction, along with other factors.


I am also saying that comparing medically administered morphine to street or recreational use to make a broad claim about the necessity of psychological issues is overlooking a major elephant in the room ie the medical professionals explicitly managing dosage.


I think you'll find that a great deal of people taking drugs recreationally and as self-administered medication attempt to control dosage. Casually browsing drug forums shows people concerned about dosage levels and trying to control for it.
However, the nature of unregulated street markets means dosage cannot be effectively controlled. Is that what are meaning about explicitly managing dosage?
Access to regulated dosage may alter the course of addiction for many people, there is little evidence either way besides weakly correlated data from populations that have had legalised drug use and a corresponding regulated market (if there is even anything like this available).

It's difficult to ascertain the true safety of recreational drug usage as their illegal and taboo nature causes free data about the issue to be suppressed, potentially scewing safety data to the 'dangerous' side due to factors that illuminate a persons drug use. Whilst people who are doing it with no issues to their wellbeing may not be measured at all.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 13:12:00 17/May/17
01:04pm 17/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12763 posts
Hey everybody, lets catch up on how things are going in the Socialist Paradise of Venezuela ?
Here’s the legacy of Venezuela’s experiment with socialism: daily riots and protests that have resulted in at least 40 deaths in recent weeks at the hands of government security forces.
Inflation estimated at 720 percent.

Shortages of basic foods and medicines. An average weight loss among Venezuelans of 19 pounds, which had nothing to do with the South Beach diet. Newborn babies deposited in dresser drawers because hospitals have no beds. Zoo animals hunted down and butchered for food by the ravenous population.

Finally, this week, and only at the urging of the United States, the United Nations is considering the desperate situation in what was once South America’s most prosperous country, before socialism sank its fangs in, sucking the economy dry.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/05/19/venezuela-incredible-legacy-experiment-with-socialism.html

come on Vash, it doesnt work, inevitably the Cash Cow (in this case Oil) gets tipped over and the Government runs out of money and turns on its own people, happens every time.
Though i have to say, most of our population could do with dropping 20 pounds.

The Labor-Lite Budget is taking us towards that^
03:14pm 20/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5335 posts

State controlled economies are bad news. I think Democratic Socialism, which is a fully democratic both in business & in governance, could work.
There are many flavors of Socialism just as there are with Capitalism.
When people think Socialism they think Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea & the former USSR.
Those countries are all about state control, no hint of democracy, and if there are elections they're just smoke & mirrors.

So yes, the Socialism in existence now, i agree, doesn't work. Also i think no form of Socialism will match the growth in technology Capitalism has provided. I think we've just about taken all the fruit from the tree and now we need to change the system so we don't f*** ourselves up more so (Climate change, environmental destruction, for example)

The profit incentive has been useful for economic growth, but growth can't continue forever unless there are a s***load more earths within reach to extract resources from.

edit:
Could be wrong on the technology thing.. the USSR apparently were quite innovative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#.C2.A0Soviet_Union


06:55pm 20/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38952 posts
who are you and what have you done with vash
01:13am 21/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5336 posts
My stance hasnt changed Trog, eventually full space communism would be nice but, we need those fusion reactors & replicators first.

03:53pm 21/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7645 posts
If you bought smashed avo on toast from a café you don't deserve a house, you lazy bums!

http://www.smashedavoproperty.com/




https://s12.postimg.org/n906jo1r1/smashedavonohouse.jpg





last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 18:57:13 21/May/17
06:48pm 21/05/17 Permalink
Zenmaster
Queensland
29 posts
years later,

I though my involvement here with you guys would mean more that it did.
10:45pm 21/05/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9430 posts
Communism and Socialism are like Agile - both of them get sold to people on the basis of "Hey that sounds great, we should do that", but then they roll it out and someone in charge says "but I don't like this particular aspect of it so we're not going to do that, and I'm going to change this", and then half the time you're left with a worse mess than you were in to begin with. That doesn't mean it can't work - sometimes it does. But they're susceptible to someone coming along and tweaking things, while still calling it "Socialism", "Communism" or "Agile" - and then it gets a bad rap.
05:58am 22/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25842 posts
infi: I don't really know any Trump supporters in real life so I am just wondering - is the general consensus among them that Trump is still winning and that he is awesome? I know you no longer comment in here for some mysterious reason so how about one blink for yes and two blinks for no.
08:21pm 22/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38953 posts
infi: I don't really know any Trump supporters in real life so I am just wondering - is the general consensus among them that Trump is still winning and that he is awesome? I know you no longer comment in here for some mysterious reason so how about one blink for yes and two blinks for no.
still widely supported according to some polls but slight slips lately.

Starting to think infi is right and that literally the only thing that will turn them off is if he raises taxes, despite how much other stuff is burning down around them
09:12pm 22/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25843 posts
Yeah I knew that but it's a different thing for someone to actually say the words "yeah everything is fine Trump is winning 11th dimensional chess" in an environment where they will be challenged. Just wondering whether it's still physically possible to say that unironically.
09:43pm 22/05/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9433 posts
Why would they care about an election being rigged if it results in their candidate getting elected? Why would they care about Russians getting intelligence if them having that intelligence doesn't directly and negatively effect them? Ultimately these people won't care until something bad happens that does wrong to them personally.
11:02am 23/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5339 posts
Communism and Socialism are like Agile - both of them get sold to people on the basis of "Hey that sounds great, we should do that", but then they roll it out and someone in charge says "but I don't like this particular aspect of it so we're not going to do that, and I'm going to change this", and then half the time you're left with a worse mess than you were in to begin with. That doesn't mean it can't work - sometimes it does. But they're susceptible to someone coming along and tweaking things, while still calling it "Socialism", "Communism" or "Agile" - and then it gets a bad rap.



You could replace most of your mention of Socialism & Communism with Capitalism ;)
It has changed immensely over the last century, with plenty of failings in various countries of Asia, Latin America & Africa.

Socialism isn't a system that is set in stone, there are many ways to go about it as with Capitalist economies. It's just unfortunate all we've seen so far are one party states who want full control over the economy rather than the people controlling it.
05:32pm 23/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2543 posts
Starting to think infi is right and that literally the only thing that will turn them off is if he raises taxes, despite how much other stuff is burning down around them


What is going wrong with Trump, I mean specifically?
06:01pm 23/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12768 posts
07:32pm 23/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5340 posts
All i take from that Faceman, is the Saudis probably believe Trump is far more easily impressed & manipulated than Obama was.
08:02pm 23/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12769 posts
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/dealbook/saudi-arabia-to-invest-20-billion-in-infrastructure-mostly-in-us.html?_r=0

Saudis to invest $20 billion in US Infrastructure
on top of $110 billion in Arms deals = massive amounts of jobs

How is that terrible ?

oh right, The Russians are controlling him.
08:16pm 23/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5341 posts
Funding the military industrial complex sounds terrible to me. But to each his own.
08:19pm 23/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2544 posts
So nothing then hey trog? No actual complaints to substantiate "everything burning down around them".
08:44am 24/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5342 posts
So nothing then hey trog? No actual complaints to substantiate "everything burning down around them".


Health policy & how it's being received in the heartland. Russian investigation. Cutting funding to many vital social programs while pumping up defence budgets. (Should be called Attack Budgets)

And climate change policy which is something the U.S needed to be a leader on. While his policies aren't doing anything right now to indicate 'everything is burning down' they will eventually.

It's a fun time to not be an American right now.
10:08am 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2545 posts
I will wait and see what happens in relation with russia. The more time that passes, the more I see very specific news outlets hyperventilating about it and the less I see verifiable facts.

Literally everything else in your list is what he was elected *to do*.

But Trogy is a big boy, I'm sure he is capable of articulating non-banal superficial points for himself.
10:45am 24/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5343 posts
Oh yes. Trump was elected to implement all those policies. Or it could be because the only other choice was a corrupt Clinton.
And his lowest of all time approval rating for a recently elected President probably indicates people don't like what he's doing.
11:10am 24/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21258 posts
Porno, out of curiosity if you had to vote in the last US election - how would you have voted?
12:41pm 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2546 posts
Hilary.
12:41pm 24/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12770 posts
because she believes in that climate changey thing ?

Lets put Vash and PornoPete to the Test
Choose a button

CHOOSE ONE !


http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg35/ggb777/Trump Science_zpsefq3ghfv.jpg
12:55pm 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2547 posts
No and no.
01:05pm 24/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38954 posts

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/dealbook/saudi-arabia-to-invest-20-billion-in-infrastructure-mostly-in-us.html?_r=0

Saudis to invest $20 billion in US Infrastructure
on top of $110 billion in Arms deals = massive amounts of jobs

How is that terrible ?

oh right, The Russians are controlling him.
ahah yeh what could possibly go wrong with exporting vast amounts of modern arms to a nation that (at the very least) tolerates third world religious extremist fundamentalism and is in many ways totally ideologically opposed to everything the US stands for. I wonder if those advocating invading Iran know they'd be facing off against the fighters from Top Gun. Of course maybe the NSA back door everything now so it's all part of a cunning trojan horse plan!

How Americans resolve their cognitive dissonance about Saudi Arabia I will never know but I find it hard to see positive stuff about any western nation's relationship with that country (let alone if it involves exporting more weapons to them) while it continues as a theocratic oligarchy - except that hilarious orb meme of course.
05:26pm 24/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2062 posts
05:52pm 24/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25845 posts
https://whatthef***justhappenedtoday.com/archive/

A handy day by day archive of news surrounding the Trump administration that also features many of his f*** ups.
05:52pm 24/05/17 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19094 posts
Bonus trump image:


lol that's a damn good shop.
05:57pm 24/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5344 posts
https://whatthef***justhappenedtoday.com/archive/

A handy day by day archive of news surrounding the Trump administration that also features many of his f*** ups.


He was elected to do all those things. All is fine. Move along.
06:00pm 24/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38955 posts


lol that's a damn good shop.
ahah it legit took me a few seconds to see what was going on in that photo
06:05pm 24/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38956 posts
fpot ^ there's also this new 2 trillion dollar budget maths error but i'm waiting for the dust to settle on that one to see how real it is
06:35pm 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2548 posts
A handy day by day archive of news surrounding the Trump administration that also features many of his f*** ups.


Reads more like a catalogue of failed journalism to me. but hey what are you gonna do.

The first six entries were the "anonymous source close to trump says Russia says you smell, and you all look like jerks" flavor.

I therefore stopped reading.

So other than reds under every bed, do you have an actual complaint, or is it the usual he's republican therefore he is evil routine?
08:34pm 24/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25846 posts
1/ Donald Trump has named only 29 of his 660 executive department appointments, the Partnership for Public Service said. (NY Times)

2/ Trump boasted his inauguration would have an “unbelievable, perhaps record-setting turnout.” But aerial shots of the National Mall from Obama’s 2009 inauguration and today show that isn’t likely. (Vox)

3/ All references to climate change have been deleted from the White House website. The only mention of climate on Trump’s new website is under his “America First Energy Plan” page, in which he vows to destroy Obama’s Climate Action Plan, which is a government-wide plan to reduce carbon emissions and address climate change. (Motherboard)

4/ New poll shows Obamacare is more popular than Donald Trump. Fox News finds that 50% of voters feel favorably about the Affordable Care Act compared to Donald Trump, whom 42% view favorably. President Obama received an approval rating of 60%. (Vox)

5/ There’s no record Trump has resigned from his companies. To transfer control of his companies, the president has to submit filings in Florida, Delaware and New York. We spoke to officials in each of those states. (ProPublica)

1/ Photos comparing Trump’s inauguration crowd to the Women’s March (CNN)
Those are the first six entries so I am not really sure what you were reading.

It's a completely dry portrayal of the news stories surrounding Trump from inauguration day till now. To me it paints a picture of an incredibly dishonest and dangerous man who has been given a huge amount of power. All the reprehensible, incompetent, bizarre and banal things his administration have done are in that link. It's really hard to pick out the worst thing and say "this is how he's burning the country down" because it's all just so consistently terrible. It's his constant lies and double standards mixed with his white supremacy and ineptness that makes him such a threat. He doesn't give a f*** if people think he is a liar, but more dangerously, he doesn't care about the consequences of them. The USA is officially a joke now. How can democracy (in the USA) be respected when it allows someone like Trump to be elected?

I really hope nothing too dramatic terrorist-wise happens in the USA while he's in office. It'd be like plonking Mr Bean in front of a peak hour Mitchell Johnson. Maybe Russia were heavily involved in the election result, and he can be removed and years from now Americans can say see it wasn't our fault he got elected, we weren't that stupid.
09:12pm 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2549 posts
Well I'm reading what comes up when you follow the link, I read the entries for days 124 back to 118. Its nothing but Russian nonsense. But thank you for neatly demonstrating my point. I like how the "completely dry portrayal" is entitled "what the f*** just happened". screams balanced curation of trump related headlines to me.

Photos comparing Trump’s inauguration crowd to the Women’s March (CNN)


Is evidence of a hollow, broken media, not failing democracy and I would lump literally every single thing in your list in that same category.

the climate change stuff on the white house website was fake news.

But wait a contender emerges...

his white supremacy


Tell me more about this please. Is there anything you won't believe about Trump at this point? Anonymous sources close to trump say he gets an enema of alien rocket fuel each morning shipped from area 51, which gives him the ability to telepathically communicate with Putin. I report, you decide.

Speaking of which.

Maybe Russia were heavily involved in the election result, and he can be removed and years from now Americans can say see it wasn't our fault he got elected, we weren't that stupid.


How exactly? so far as I can see the limit of Russia's involvement was state sponsored hacking of the DNC, which revealed outright corruption in the convention process (there may or may not have been money given to the trump campaign, but the odds of ever tying Putin or trump personally to a payment I think are currently zero). The game was to call the legitimacy of the election into question, so well done for walking straight into their desired outcome. But either way the American people still voted for trump.

I take it from trog's post referring to yours he is suffering a bit of TDS as well.
09:58pm 24/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25847 posts
If the list is unbalanced feel free to balance it.

Trump is a white supremacist. That's why Bannon, one of the founders of white supremacist weekly, is his right-hand man. Those two would go full facist (for our protection of course) if they could. Their baby steps towards that are what's causing all the chaos as the system designed to prevent fascism occurring pushes back. It will win, but the USA will be forever damaged.

If/When a significant terrorist attack occurs in the USA watch what happens. It's what they're both waiting for. A dangerous lunatic and a calculating psychopath will be in charge and they're primary purpose won't be the safety of the nation but on more power for them and f*** you.
10:29pm 24/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25848 posts
PROS for Trump going full fascist:

- protestors can simply be arrested
- no more media to make him look stupid
- himself and his friends people he finds useful are immune from prosecution
- so much money that money will become meaningless to him but the continued freedom to acquire more
- no nations will stand up to them
- he'll be able to make every brilliant thought that comes into his head a reality
etc

CONS for Trump going full fascist:

- people will complain for a while about it but see point one in the PROS
10:43pm 24/05/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12164 posts
Yeah you're not far off. I think he is going to play the brutal reality of climate change to his advantage and say that he always warned everyone about the effects of climate change. He changes his position to suit the news of the day and then says that he always felt that way, because he is a compulsive and pathological liar, a narcissist interested only in his own ascendancy and what will give him power and control over other people. He does this by giving his approval of other people when they bend to his will and then tells us all what great respect he has for them.

Trump is not stupid, when it appears that way it is pure showmanship. It doesn't matter what he says on any given day because people with narcissistic personalities do not care or accept any consequences for their behaviour, they rewrite history and keep everyone guessing about what they will do next. He is surrounding himself with like-minded authoritarians, including Putin and Netanyahu. But of course they are great people, great people and they're going to have great success and get a lot done. Just you wait and see what they're going to accomplish.
11:02pm 24/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2550 posts
yeah so calling everyone you don't like a white supremacist is childish fpot. The list is unbalanced because it just obviously is. If your actual attitude is that the list represents reality, well then, anonymous sources close to trump say fpot is an idiot. as a result I see no reason to go and provide "balance" to an article claiming to be news while comparing photos.

so this

Yeah I knew that but it's a different thing for someone to actually say the words "yeah everything is fine Trump is winning 11th dimensional chess" in an environment where they will be challenged.


Is reading pretty funny right now. Trump is winning at breaking your brain. in all 69 dimensions. But hey I'm sure you'd have really taken infi to task with a zinger about white supremacy.

Trump has every excuse he needs to go full fascist with NK and it hasn't happened. Oddly enough the promised nuclear winter when Pyongyang called trump farty pants hasn't happened either. I guess its a 200D chess move we can't see at the moment.

His presidency will be erratic but on balance not much different to anyone since Regan. I'll bet $100 bucks right now. And if the media don't get their f*****g act together he will cruise to a second term.

He is surrounding himself with like-minded authoritarians, including Putin


So when he bombed Putin friendly forces in Syria was that getting Putin closer in 500D Chess or was it just a red line like everyone said it was?
07:53am 25/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21259 posts
500D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!
07:59am 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5345 posts
It's funny PP thinks it's the media who need to get their act together.
09:41am 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2551 posts
It's funny you think you've ever produced an insightful post Vash, but here we are.
10:40am 25/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25851 posts
So Trump is simply erratic, all the hoo-hah surrounding his actions is a fabrication by the media, and you're trying to gaslight me into thinking I am wrong? That's a pretty compelling position you hold there.

My favourite Trump moment of late? When he told President Rodrigo Duterte that he is doing a great job policing drugs in his country. Policies like this -

On September 30, 2016, Duterte appeared to compare the killings of suspected drug addicts to the Holocaust saying: "Hitler massacred three million Jews. Now, there are 3 million drug addicts. ... I'd be happy to slaughter them."


Among many other murderous statements.

Simply erratic behaviour that.
02:26pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5347 posts
It was funny when Trump tried to get one step ahead of the leakers & leaked something himself, while his staff were saying the reports weren't true.
They really have no idea what they're doing.
04:19pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2552 posts
and you're trying to gaslight me into thinking I am wrong?


Gaslighting you?

Dude you're at 12 could use you at 6.

Trump is erratic, not mentally ill erratic, just winging it erratic. That is the criticism. That fact alone is enough to say no presidenting for you. Hence despite her many flaws, I still think Hilary would have been a solid single term president.

You however, have variously accused him of being hitler, a white supremacist, a rape *advocate* (as in for or in favour of rape), a Russian spy/puppet, a master planner of sinister deeds waiting to leap on the slightest opening to implement his dastardly plan to hold power forever while simultaneously accusing him of being so erratic he has a mental illness, and god knows what else.

and to accuse me of "gaslighting you" (or to deliberately try to make you misjudge your own memory in an abusive relationship) is the kind of broken hysterics trump is bringing out in you. Not sober reasonable people.

and if you are Really presenting comparing photos of event attendance as "balanced news" as opposed to the scribblings of a three year old then maybe you need to have your memory adjusted.

get a grip.
04:47pm 25/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25852 posts
being hitler
no
a white supremacist
yes
a rape *advocate*
no. I accused him of condoning sexual assault when he said he liked to sexually assault women by grabbing their pussys and kissing them uninvited.
a Russian spy/puppet
no, but I think it's a possibility because of the circumstantial evidence and it would make a whole lot of things make sense.
a master planner of sinister deeds waiting to leap on the slightest opening to implement his dastardly plan to hold power forever while simultaneously accusing him of being so erratic he has a mental illness, and god knows what else.
this is an example of you using hyperbole to make something reasonable (I think Trump and his inner circle are only interested in their own power and wealth and wouldn't balk at being opportunistic about it) seem unreasonable. Why are you doing that?

I never used the word balanced, you did. And I invite you again to attempt to make that list look balanced by posting about all the good things Trump has done since he has taken office. Even if 10% of the things about Trump are accurate, it still paints a picture of someone who can be accurately described as burning down the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.

So how about how he praised the guy who said he'd like to slaughter three million drug addicts? That would be condoning genocide wouldn't it?
04:59pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5348 posts
not mentally ill erratic


Prominent psychologists & psychiatrists say otherwise.

Trump himself has not shown too much on the white supremacy front, but they sure do cheer behind him. That has to worry you alitte bit doesn't it?
And, someone can be in favour of rape by not declaring so (Grab em' by the pussy anyone?)

The Russian investigation is ongoing, and the evidence sure is piling up.

You got your head in the sand, PP.
05:02pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2553 posts
Dude I will go and find the quote if you want me to RE rape advocate.

You have not posted a single plausible reason to consider trump, or bannon for that matter, a white supremacist.

Why are you doing that?


well there's this

PROS for Trump going full fascist:


but more generally if you want to claim that Trump is planing on establishing the fourth riech the burden of proof is on you. Obviously. There is nothing remotely approaching evidence that Trump is planning some kind of coup. There is nothing particularly showing he will be anymore corrupt than other presidents in recent history, and I mean that sincerely. The Clinton foundation as close as I can see is a flatout money pit for pay to play access to the Clinton's. What has trump done that is more corrupt than that? Specifically.

If you are saying he will line his pockets, well ok, but why throw in all the other crap you *always* do. If you are saying his opportunistic, well then it falls to you to say why he is especially so, because so far as I can tell opportunism comes with the territory of being a politician.

as for "balanced" lets recap how this conversation took place.

You said infi should state if he still thinks trump is winning.
Trog said his polls are consistent despite "everything burning down around them"
I said what does "everything burning down around them mean"
You post a link to a flagrantly partisan list of innuendo and rumor as a reason to think "everything is burning down around them".
I point out your list is innuendo and rumor.
You say I'm "gaslighting you".


burning down the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.


Which ones. Specifically. Because as far as I can see all of his foreign policy so far as played out roughly in accordance with US foreign policy objectives since roughly the 50's.

Case in point. North Korea. What has happened and how has trump done anything that can reasonably be described as
burning down the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.


NK should have tighter sanctions on it. They f*****g use the ground up corpses of their political prisoners as fertilizer for vegetable gardens for the ones that haven't died yet (and i don't mean Duterte running their mouth, they actually do it). The idea of a regime that far off the map having Nukes *absolutely* justifies military intervention. This has been US policy since at least 1990, across both sides of the isle. Trump says all of this and people here and in the media lost their f*****g minds. Vox went so far as to publish an opinion piece saying "actually NK's economy is doing pretty well".

Do you think SK or Japan are going to tolerate a nuclear armed NK? At the end of the day armed conflict may well not be up to Trump.

So enough with the hysterics already.
05:28pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2554 posts
Prominent psychologists & psychiatrists say otherwise.


Yeah in violation of their professional code of ethics, which the APA has elaborated on in relation to trump to say don't f*****g do it. We've been over this Vash. At length. When you can produce someone who is more credible than the president of the APA saying the goldwater rule should be repealed you can talk about it again.

The Russian investigation is ongoing, and the evidence sure is piling up.


Anonymous sources blabbing to the NYT and WAPO who appear to have collectively engaged "credulous moron" mode are pilling up. strong to call that "evidence".
05:49pm 25/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38957 posts
Trump is not stupid, when it appears that way it is pure showmanship. It doesn't matter what he says on any given day because people with narcissistic personalities do not care or accept any consequences for their behaviour, they rewrite history and keep everyone guessing about what they will do next. He is surrounding himself with like-minded authoritarians, including Putin and Netanyahu. But of course they are great people, great people and they're going to have great success and get a lot done. Just you wait and see what they're going to accomplish.
I don't think that means he isn't stupid. I agree with the rest of it but I think it's perfectly possible, even easy, to do all that stuff if you're rich as s*** and just a blustery windbag.

Douglas Adams keeps writing blog posts about him being the Master Persuader; I find them really interesting and in some cases compelling - but I keep coming back to the fact that his behaviour mostly is still indistinguishable from that of a foolish rich liar used to getting their own way all the time.

The only way those of us at this great remove can judge his intellect is through his words (obviously terrible) and actions. I think the jury is still out on the actions part because it's still early days but he's struggling to get the stuff he said he would done. But this is not unusual for almost any politician (also it's not unusual for them, or anyone, to be stupid and blustery)
06:14pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5349 posts
Oh okay PP. So we shouldn't regard anything mental health experts say. Gotcha.

And anonymous sources is literally how the media works you dummy. It's how you force a government to be somewhat transparent.
06:52pm 25/05/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7647 posts
Politics is just theatre. It's the stuff going on behind the stage that matters.
06:53pm 25/05/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12165 posts
06:55pm 25/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25853 posts
07:23pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2555 posts
Oh okay PP. So we shouldn't regard anything mental health experts say. Gotcha.


Actually by taking those reports seriously you are disregarding what the professional body for mental health experts say, which is made up of .... wait for it.... mental health experts, the most respected experts in their field no less. but you can take the word of doctor nick seriously if you want to jackass.


And anonymous sources is literally how the media works you dummy. It's how you force a government to be somewhat transparent.


Er actually anonymous sources are the least preferred method of reporting for professional journalists, precisely because anonymity is antithetical to credibility. But just you dunning Kruger along little buddy.
07:30pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5350 posts


Er actually anonymous sources are the least preferred method of reporting for professional journalists, precisely because anonymity is antithetical to credibility. But just you dunning Kruger along little buddy.


I have yet to see a mental health professional claim Trump is mentally healthy. Weird how some of them have come out to warn about him regardless of the chance of losing credibility within their profession.

Without anonymous reporting, There would be no way to source information from within government that they don't want the public to see. which isn't really good for democracy.
08:22pm 25/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25854 posts
What the f***? Without anonymous reporting journalism doesn't exist. It's probably the most important tool available to keep powerful corporations/governments in check. It's why journalists will never give up their sources, ever.

edit: like I get it, a person could be an anonymous source and feed a journalist bulls*** for a myriad of reasons, and I am sure it has happened a bunch of times with Trump. But look at the volume of things that have been leaked in that link you're so desperate to ignore. At least some of it (I reckon very little of it personally) is bulls***. But these aren't isolated reports of Trump doing terrible things. They keep coming thick and fast and like I said, if even a fraction of it is true, then we have an extraordinarily twisted man as the most powerful person in the world. That puts everything at threat. The credibility and stability of the US government, freedom of speech, the very air we are breathing. It's all in danger because somehow this guy got elected. There is nothing good about it, and there is no hope there will be. It's all bad and I commend you for wanting to seem like the calmest person in the room about it but you seem to be ignoring a lot of things to achieve that.

edit2:
the rule forbids psychoanalyzing people from afar *full-stop*. a bunch of mental health professionals declaring trump mentally healthy would also be breaking the goldwater rule
I wonder if this rule can be ignored if the person will never be in a position to be psychoanalysed or assessed for mental competence. If the best people can possibly do is psychoanalyze him from afar, then why shouldn't they do that?actually read it and it appears to cover this exact thing
08:44pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2556 posts

I have yet to see a mental health professional claim Trump is mentally healthy. Weird how some of them have come out to warn about him regardless of the chance of losing credibility within their profession.


just endless depths of idiocy with you. like abyssal plain depths of failure to able to think.

the rule forbids psychoanalyzing people from afar *full-stop*. a bunch of mental health professionals declaring trump mentally healthy would also be breaking the goldwater rule. IE the ones doing their job and upholding their ethical duties (the vast majority of them i might add) don't comment on Trump's mental health, period.


Without anonymous reporting, There would be no way to source information from within government that they don't want the public to see. which isn't really good for democracy.


You're an idiot. whistleblower protection is in place for exactly this reason. Anonymous leaking can make it impossible to govern. Why don't you ask Ms Gillard what she thinks about "anonymous sources" (ie that piece of s*** Rudd) and their essentiality to democracy.

edit1.
Fpot again with the hysterics.

here is the NYtimes view on it.

https://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/new-york-times-anoymous-sources-policy-public-editor/

Although the policy does not ban anonymity, it is intended to significantly reduce what Mr. Purdy characterized as an overreliance on unnamed sources.


edit2

actually read it and it appears to cover this exact thing


Yeah I know.
08:49pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5351 posts
That whistleblower protection really worked well for Snowden didn't it?

The multiple psychologists & psychiatrists firmly stated that they didn't need to have a personal consultation with Trump to declare he isn't mentally well. If there were any uncertainty in that regard im sure they would be requesting as such before making such claims.
09:06pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2557 posts
you mean Snowden who didn't avail himself of the protection and instead got himself debriefed by the KGB? That snowden? Yes that went swimmingly for democracy. giving putin's spys insight into the prism program was a real "win" for democracy.

he multiple psychologists & psychiatrists firmly stated that they didn't need to have a personal consultation with Trump to declare he isn't mentally well.


Yeah and they broke the professional code of ethics to do it. the president of the APA has said unequivocally this is the case.

When you get your research added to the DSM-5 I'll take your opinion of Mental Health professional ethics on board.
09:13pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5352 posts
Oh so Snowden is a KGB spy yet the Russian investigation into Trump has no credibility?
Looks like you pick and choose which evidence suits your world view before thinking its credible.

Even more reason to believe these mental health experts if they were willing to break code of ethics to reveal such things.
09:17pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2558 posts
No, Snowden was debriefed by the KGB. but don't worry. Carry on buddy.

Even more reason to believe these mental health experts if they were willing to break code of ethics to reveal such things.


Literally the opposite is true. If they are willing to break their code of ethics they are *by definition* bad mental health experts.
09:23pm 25/05/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12166 posts
You don't need to be a mental health professional to see that Trump has a deeply narcissistic personality, and that his behaviour is the result of it.
09:40pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5353 posts
Regardless of how Snowden was debriefed, what he revealed was vitally important to government constituents, and the world. You're pretty naive if you think if he chose to remain in the U.S that he would have whistleblower protection.

I dont think breaking the code of ethics discounts mental health diagnosis, PP. It's pretty obvious to many that he isn't of stable mind. You don't really need a medical degree to figure that out.
09:44pm 25/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2559 posts
You don't need to be a mental health professional to see that Trump has a deeply narcissistic personality, and that his behaviour is the result of it.


No, but the broader question of whether it rises to the level of a dangerous illness is different to what you are talking about, and *no-one* who has not examined him in person is qualified to make that call. More importantly anyone who is making that call should have their "diagnosis" instantly disregarded.


Vash the point with snowden is that he didn't use whistleblower protection so using him as an example of it failing is a non-sequitur. engage brain then type.

I don't think breaking the code of ethics discounts mental health diagnosis, PP. It's pretty obvious to many that he isn't of stable mind. You don't really need a medical degree to figure that out.


Actually you dimwit the ethical rule exists precisely because remote mental health diagnosis *is almost always wrong*, so actually yeah, breaking the code is actually an iron clad reason to discount the diagnosis.
09:57pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5354 posts
and *no-one* who has not examined him in person is qualified to make that call.


I think mental health professionals are more qualified to make that call than you, regardless of any rules broken.
For example; in court if a defendant is not cooperative with a mental health analysis the doctor can still make a diagnosis just based on their actions & personality. Trump likely wouldn't undergo any one on one consultation, there is more than enough evidence out in the open for them to make a diagnosis.
10:23pm 25/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25856 posts
KGB haven't existed since 1991.
10:29pm 25/05/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3265 posts
The KGB didn't go anywhere, they just rebranded to the FSB. The Russians always excelled at spycraft. Their recent 'hybrid warfare' shenanigans show they're still pretty ace at it too. Although Putin is old school KGB, so it's hardly surprising.
06:24am 26/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2560 posts
oh so you'd like to debate expert opinion in a court would you?

that's funny.

I think mental health professionals are more qualified to make that call than you, regardless of any rules broken.


For the final time jackass, the rule was created and is enforced by mental health professionals. Mental health professionals have made that call and guess what. the call mental health professionals made is: If you haven't examined someone in person you can't psychoanalyze them.

It's pretty obvious to many that he isn't of stable mind. You don't really need a medical degree to figure that out.


Yeah so actually you do, and this is *exactly* the dunning kruger effect. Good to see you are living up to your reputation as the physical embodiment of it.

You are as wrong as it is possible to be on the subject Vash. Just drop it.
08:36am 26/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2063 posts

Privatising is always the best thing to do for the public.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/we-were-told-it-was-all-over-careers-australia-collapses-leaving-15000-students-in-limbo-20170526-gwdmc6.html

Business is bleating about a skills shortage and now thanks to privatisation of tertiary education we have this mess.


06:44pm 26/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12773 posts
mental health professionals


We all know where the Mental Health issues are in relation to Trump.
Its Liberals suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.

How is it these, and I use this term very loosely "professional" Mental Health experts not able to see the abnormal psychological issues being displayed by most of those opposed to Trump ?

http://assets.thepoliticalinsider.com.s3.amazonaws.com/content/uploads/2017/02/TrumpDerangementSyndrome.jpg

06:58pm 26/05/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4600 posts
he may or may not be a head case but for now at least, Americans are still more than willing to overlook his proclivities and give him a mandate as just shown in the Montana by election, and will no doubt be shown in the Georgia one in a few weeks

which says more about the mediocrity of the Democratic alternative than anything else
07:25pm 26/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5355 posts
Political opposition isn't a mental illness, faceman. Trump on the other hand, there are plenty of signs. You can always rely on conservative cartoons for a good dose of dumb.
07:28pm 26/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38962 posts
he may or may not be a head case but for now at least, Americans are still more than willing to overlook his proclivities and give him a mandate as just shown in the Montana by election, and will no doubt be shown in the Georgia one in a few weeks

which says more about the mediocrity of the Democratic alternative than anything else
those deep red welfare states are unlikely to change any time soon. They are, ironically, often the ones that are the "most socialist" in the sense that they consume way more federal funding than the other states (Montana is in the top 10 IIRC though I think Kentucky or Kansas is the worse).

It is more important to see what happens in the swing states like Ohio as they are a better barometer for what is going to happen in the election because of the EC; the buffer for the Republicans is nowhere near as great there.
08:00pm 26/05/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4601 posts
the kind of rusted-on supporters who will vote for the Republican even after he kicks a reporter's ass

though it is largely a postal vote there
09:09pm 26/05/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12167 posts
You may be right about the mental illness aspect of Trump's narcissistic personality PornoPete:

The psychiatrist who defined narcissistic personality disorder says President Trump may be a "world-class narcissist," but claims that the president is mentally ill is an insult to those who truly are.


http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/319838-doctor-who-defined-narcissistic-personality-disorder-calling

People with personalities like Trump who are functional and can accomplish things are the dangerous ones. Personal achievement is their mantra, at the expense of meaningful relationships with those around them. They are only interested in other people if they make them look good. I don't know why you would admire someone like that, unless you are someone who is easily led.

‘Somebody high in self-esteem values individual achievement, but they also value their relationships and caring for others,’ she says. ‘Narcissists are missing that piece about valuing, caring and their relationships, so they tend to lack empathy, they have poor relationship skills. That's one of the biggest differences, those communal and caring traits tend to be high in most people with self-esteem but not among those who are high in narcissism.’


http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/young-people-today-are-more-narcissistic-than-ever/5457236
11:49pm 26/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5357 posts
There are different degrees of mentally ill, dais. While Trump maybe a functional mentally ill person, i doubt the diagnosis would be insulting to people with more severe mental disorders.
12:01am 27/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2561 posts
You may be right about the mental illness aspect of Trump's narcissistic personality PornoPete:


You're welcome.

I don't know why you would admire someone like that, unless you are someone who is easily led.


Who said anything about admiration? My point *the whole time* is that the media have demonstrably lost their s*** over trump. the left wing of politics have demonstrably lost their s*** over trump. zero coherent political opposition has emerged.

exhibit A
Political opposition isn't a mental illness, faceman.


if you think anything that has happened in the media or politics since his election is "opposition" you're a moron.

Breathless hysterical accusations of white supremacy will see him reelected. If you doubt that, despite "everything that has happened" what is happening to his polling numbers? Bupkis, he is holding steady at rates that won him the election.

here is a mental illness epitaph worth considering.

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

So far as I can see, the democrats and most of the media have hitched their wagon to a strategy that will not hurt trump and will destroy their reputations. I see no evidence of it changing.

For example if you consider Melania trump not holding hands with Donald trump "news", you have lost your mind. but the *majority* of the worlds media chose to focus on it.

Or his talk at nato. Everyone is talking about how he pushed past some pm, meanwhile him taking the rest of the organization to task over failure to pay up has taken a second seat. again, if you are focused on milliseconds of footage over the policy result of the talks, a comparison between you and a dog chasing a ball someone pretended to throw is entirely apt. the mainstream media is closer to the dog than a functional adult human being from what I've seen so far.

Now as for trump being dangerous. well maybe, he is clearly reckless, but he will be capable of doing real damage only if the media and his political opponents don't hold him to account. So far so mind bendingly terrible on that front.

trumps opponents so far are hell bent on convincing the electorate that they have just elected satan himself. As long as that goes on, trump will be fine and the media will continue to trash its reputation. Which I might add is becoming hard to do, trust in media has literally never been lower, and it isn't difficult to see why.


There are different degrees of mentally ill, dais. While Trump maybe a functional mentally ill person, i doubt the diagnosis would be insulting to people with more severe mental disorders.


Please continue making a fool of yourself.
09:04am 27/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25858 posts
Except it's perfectly possible to comment on both. If a five year old child was on stage for something and pushed past someone to get to the front they'd be pulled from the stage and reprimanded because a five year old should know better than to do that. Seems the President of the United States doesn't, and is in fact so mentally fragile that he needs to be at the front otherwise he won't seem important enough :(

He also made a posturing stupid speech about NATO but that's kind of old because he made similar comments when he last met Merkel and it was pretty much just a doubling down on dumb which really dumb people like to do because to admit to doing something dumb would make it real and that's a reality they're constantly running from. Imagine being in the group of real leaders trying to stifle your laughter.

I didn't see much on proper news about the hand holding thing apart from a haha caption on a video. I feel sorry for Melania, she must be stuck in a truly miserable situation. Trapped in a loveless marriage with a deeply misogynistic white supremacist. That's gotta suck.
08:11pm 27/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21261 posts
Wiping her tears away with $100 bills
08:36pm 27/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25859 posts
I have never heard of anyone who is rich yet unhappy.
08:53pm 27/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5358 posts
That notch guy apparently
08:56pm 27/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12774 posts
I was impressed with his ballsy move.
A bunch of Pussies are running The EU in to the ground arent payin' their Bar Tabs and are terrified of Putin. ...then a badaass mutherf***** goes all GoT and pushes the girly boys outta the way.

Leader of The Free World comin' thru'

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0IyeMK6G2Gr1Gm3e/giphy.gif


11:24pm 27/05/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4602 posts
even the guy himself (prime minister of Montenegro) said don't worry about it
02:18am 28/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25860 posts
I'm sure he wasn't overly bothered. Even if he was though he was just being a pro about it. It's the difference between being a man and being a giant insecure man baby I guess.
02:35am 28/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2562 posts
Except it's perfectly possible to comment on both.


Except clearly its not. you have now in one post engaged in arm chair psychiatrics and impugning a personal relationship you know less than nothing about [based on milliseconds of footage], and managed to slip this in somehow:

He also made a posturing stupid speech about NATO but that's kind of old because he made similar comments when he last met Merkel and it was pretty much just a doubling down on dumb which really dumb people like to do because to admit to doing something dumb would make it real and that's a reality they're constantly running from. Imagine being in the group of real leaders trying to stifle your laughter.


Cutting analysis, truly fpot. Your mind is like a laser guided razor getting to the core of the issue.

Never mind that NATO does have a problem with members free riding on US military strength. The US is totally with in its rights to demand the other members of, how did you phrase it? oh thats right.

the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.
Pay the amount of money they *agreed* to pay into the
the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.


remind me again, cause I don't think I get it, how is demanding that members pay the amount those members agreed to pay into
the institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2
reasonably describable as the *US* or *Donald Trump* burning down said institutions or "dumb". Seems to me it's Merkel who is pushing the envelope not trump. Germany is the wealthiest nation in Europe they don't have a good reason not to pay their way.

I didn't see much on proper news about the hand holding thing apart from a haha caption on a video. I feel sorry for Melania, she must be stuck in a truly miserable situation. Trapped in a loveless marriage with a deeply misogynistic white supremacist. That's gotta suck.


But way to really stick it to trump. I mean really wow.
09:09am 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5359 posts
Are you capable of any kind of criticisms of Trump? Or you're just one of those annoying anti circle jerk types?

Especially:

Porno, out of curiosity if you had to vote in the last US election - how would you have voted?
Hilary


Doesn't seem likely
12:52pm 28/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2563 posts
It's not like you can go an read my verbatim opinion on election night or anything is it vash?
07:37pm 28/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12775 posts
Holy Cow hes gonna do it

U.S. President Donald Trump has informed multiple individuals, including EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt, that he intends to remove the United States from the Paris Climate Agreement, according several sources. On Saturday night, Axios reported the news based on “three sources with direct knowledge.”


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/27/report-trump-tells-allies-he-plans-to-remove-u-s-from-paris-climate-agreement/

The War on Coal is over
A New World Order is forming.
07:47pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5361 posts
It's not like you can go an read my verbatim opinion on election night or anything is it vash?


Yeah ok, one tid bit of criticism on election night, now let's not do anything about criticising what he's actually *doing*
If you're truly of a neutral viewpoint as you seem to try to uphold, then you can see Trump's administration is in chaos, regardless of identifying as leftist, centrist, or on the right.
07:52pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5362 posts
Cool Faceman. I guess you, being of a typical anti science perspective, can't see that ignoring climate change is bad? And you won't see PP criticising Trump on this either.
08:00pm 28/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2564 posts
Yeah ok, one tid bit of criticism on election night


Yeah the "tid bit" just happens to be not voting for him. You're a f*****g retard. I think I'll refer to you as Train Wreck of Humanity from now on.

Trog can tell you more about what that means.
08:48pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5363 posts


Yeah the "tid bit" just happens to be not voting for him. You're a f*****g retard. I think I'll refer to you as Train Wreck of Humanity from now on.

Trog can tell you more about what that means.


Still waiting for the criticism of his policies, PP.

Too funny you refer to me as such instead of Trump. I guess we now know what kind of person you are.
09:16pm 28/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2565 posts
No I think it fits TWH.

Still waiting for the criticism of his policies


again my criticism in on the record TWH. But your policy complaints seem thin on the ground TWH. so far he is a "nazi" "white supremacist" with a mental disability. that isn't policy criticism so much as the scribblings of a retard. But hey you are what you are TWH.

I guess we now know what kind of person you are.


Keep in mind reality is diametrically opposed to your specific perception of TWH. so I'll take that as iron clad proof I'm a well adjust adult.
09:30pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5364 posts
You're free to refer to me however you'd like, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

But at least we know where you stand. Someone who doesn't seem bothered by Trump's problematic policies and defends him tells me all i need.
09:44pm 28/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25861 posts
It was a posturing speech because who really cares if some nations aren't buying enough guns when Trump is destroying the credibility of the US government by using it as his own little get rich quicker scheme for himself and all his buddies? What do you think is more of a threat - a slightly less developed military in a handful of European nations, or a country that will pretend climate change doesn't exist and will actively dismantle the countermeasures that have been put in place?

It was just a another blustery pile of dreck to appeal to the hurr durr hoo-rah crowd so they can get themselves all moist about how mighty and powerful the US military is... not like those guys over there who choose to spend their money on something that may actually help the world in a meaningful way.
10:29pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4603 posts
and there you have it - if the continuing Russian influence over the US government doesn't faze you, and you see his prevaricating and obstruction of justice as a bit of theatre then this should make you wake up

we don't have time for this potential roundhouse kick to Earth's balls so that energy billionaires can get even more rich and the trucker hat constituency might get a temporary reprieve on having to change their moribund jobs
10:58pm 28/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5365 posts
According to PP it's all a media circus.
Look right here please. All is well.

Yep Insom, we should be taking Trump's policies *very* seriously. The fact this is all whatever according to many people is abit of a worry. I guess the human ego triumphs all.
11:12pm 28/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25865 posts
01:10am 29/05/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4604 posts
well facey's source is breitbart, it should be taken with a grain massive salt avalanche
01:35am 29/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2566 posts
It was a posturing speech because who really cares if some nations aren't buying enough guns when Trump is destroying the credibility of the US government by using it as his own little get rich quicker scheme for himself and all his buddies? What do you think is more of a threat - a slightly less developed military in a handful of European nations, or a country that will pretend climate change doesn't exist and will actively dismantle the countermeasures that have been put in place?

It was just a another blustery pile of dreck to appeal to the hurr durr hoo-rah crowd so they can get themselves all moist about how mighty and powerful the US military is... not like those guys over there who choose to spend their money on something that may actually help the world in a meaningful way.


Any time you want to post something of substance, don't feel like I'm stopping you.

NATO has been a corner stone of military stability since WW2 and is based on the principle of *collective* defense. An attack against one is an attack against all. If the US is the only one who can actually defend themselves then it is not *collective* defense it is countries like Germany outsourcing their own security.

You can't have it both ways fpot. NATO is one of the primary of these so called
institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.


countries refusing to live up to their voluntarily assumed obligations is therefore either a big deal worth pursing or NATO isn't an
institutions that have brought stability and security to the western world since at least WW2.


And now suddenly I take it brietbart isn't white supremacy weekly when the news article suits you.

Get A Grip.

Yep Insom, we should be taking Trump's policies *very* seriously.


Yeah well anytime you want to do that TWH.
07:04am 29/05/17 Permalink
mongie
Brisbane, Queensland
7731 posts
LOL at the software company who don't want to pay for internets. $1000 for 100Mb business internet is normal. You'd pay similar amounts all over the world.

This NBN/"Australia has s***** internet" thing has gotten old.


PS: The NYTimes article is trash.
07:51am 29/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25866 posts
And now suddenly I take it brietbart isn't white supremacy weekly when the news article suits you.
What?

When I said Trump is destroying the institutions keeping the world safe did you seriously think I meant military build-up? Do you really think the US is the only nation capable of defending itself against attack? Do you really think Germany couldn't defend itself? And nice job not answering my question about what the bigger threat is - Trump reality denying climate change or some military percentage spending thing in Europe.

There's a type of poster who comes up occasionally in the SA forums Trump thread. They'll say they're not a Trump supporter, yet when faced with the tough questions they'll just deflect. They say they'd vote for Hillary, yet will defend Trump's most indefensible positions. When it's all said and done and the jig is finally up they just fade away and stop posting. I've always wondered whether they're paid shills, or just cowards who support Trump's ideology yet have enough self-awareness to know how abhorrent it is.
05:01pm 29/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38965 posts
This NBN/"Australia has s***** internet" thing has gotten old.
hey what kind of Internet do you have?

my mate just got NBN installed and while he gets good speeds downloading, he is dropping packets all the time so it is almost useless for gaming, which is what he wanted it for. btw he didn't want NBN, he was forced onto it
PS: The NYTimes article is trash.
it's trash if you believe Australia doesn't have an Internet problem
$1000 for 100Mb business internet is normal. You'd pay similar amounts all over the world.
wat

maybe for a dedicated line that was specifically run for you (which I think is what they got). But in other places "all over the world" you can get normal lines that are used for business for much cheaper. Providers here that have fibre rolled out are around 100 pounds (I still dont' know how to do the symbol) for a "business" line (which afaik is 100% the exact same physical infrastructure as you'd get on a civilian one but it comes with a dedicated IP).

This is Europe though where they actually invested in infrastructure; if you're talking about Australia and the USA though I agree $1k is not an unusual price. In any case arguing about anecdotes is kind of boring and completely not the issue.

The question though and the ENTIRE F*****G POINT OF THE ARTICLE isn't "is it unusual?", it's "is it unusual for a country that has dropped squillions of dollars rolling out a national broadband network that we were promised would revolutionise our digital industries to still have costs of upwards of 30k a year to get 100mbit Internet to a business in a capital city"


edit: I will add the huge and perhaps obvious disclaimer that I am heavily biased in this discussion as another Australia technology business stooge that also got f*** all out of the deployment of the NBN so far. You can refer back to my previous comments pre-NBN (however many billion years ago) about why I thought it was a terrible idea because it sounded like it would have zero benefit to businesses based on (amongst other things) their deployment strategy :)

I would otherwise agree that the problem of "o no the sloes Internets" would be uninteresting (as someone that has always lived in an area with decent Internet so I've never had to suffer) BUT we now live in this post-NBN world where we should be expecting more.
06:00pm 29/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38966 posts
we don't have time for this potential roundhouse kick to Earth's balls so that energy billionaires can get even more rich and the trucker hat constituency might get a temporary reprieve on having to change their moribund jobs
it's almost hard to care about the coal industry now though because it feels like the desperate flailing of an industry that knows their time is up because there are commercially better alternatives. We just had a day here in the UK where coal provided 1.4% of the total power supply. 1.4%! Sure, it was a total outlier, but the fact that is even possible for a day blows my f*****g mind.
06:20pm 29/05/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40614 posts
we don't have time for this potential roundhouse kick to Earth's balls so that energy billionaires can get even more rich and the trucker hat constituency might get a temporary reprieve on having to change their moribund jobs


heh, what an excellent comment! had to work hard to find something of worth in this thread.

also

"£"
06:48pm 29/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2567 posts
when I said Trump is destroying the institutions keeping the world safe did you seriously think I meant military build-up?


no I assumed you meant the institutions which have maintained security and NATO is the daddy of them all. Do seriously think NATO is something other than a critically important organization responsible for global security? demanding the member nations pay what was agreed is not a military build-up, it is sustaining military capability which you don't seem to appreciate is largely responsible for the security of the western world.

Do you really think the US is the only nation capable of defending itself against attack?

no, but the specific issue fpot is whether countries are failing to live up to their obligations and effectively outsourcing defense to the US. This has been a source of tension within NATO for decades. Trump is just airing it, and I don't see a good reason why he shouldn't. I'm all ears as to why that is a terrible notion, but I suspect you don't have an answer.

Do you really think Germany couldn't defend itself?

Do I really think a country which imports most of its energy from the most likely and powerful aggressor, and doesn't spend it's obligations under NATO. No not really. do you? if so why?

And nice job not answering my question about what the bigger threat is - Trump reality denying climate change or some military percentage spending thing in Europe.

Do I think the corner stone alliance preventing Russian and terrorist aggression getting its s*** together, ahem, trumps the paris accords. In a word yes. I don't particularly care about trumps position on climate change. It'd be nice if something got done, but I'm not holding my breath, under any president I might add. I haven't picked apart the Paris accords so I don't really know what was put in place institutionally to see off climate change (and I KNOW you don't either, I KNOW you are pissing your pants because an important topic to you isn't being addressed as much as you'd like and that is the sum total and depth of your criticism).

Don't post a tweet of trump saying its a hoax. Demonstrate policy changes, and tie them specifically to climate change. I *do not give a f**** what trump says on twitter.



There's a type of poster who comes up occasionally in the SA forums Trump thread. They'll say they're not a Trump supporter, yet when faced with the tough questions they'll just deflect. They say they'd vote for Hillary, yet will defend Trump's most indefensible positions. When it's all said and done and the jig is finally up they just fade away and stop posting. I've always wondered whether they're paid shills, or just cowards who support Trump's ideology yet have enough self-awareness to know how abhorrent it is.


Well it's a good thing I've been posting here at least as long as you then isn't it. There's a type poster who when faced with the bald faced fact that satan hasn't been elected to the white house, will resort to any general negative news and slide into full chicken little mode. They will lecture about lack of self-awareness and how dumb people are while being pathologically unable to answer specific policy questions, even in basic detail, and why trump is wrong on them.

But here we are.
06:51pm 29/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25867 posts
I think NATO is important. I don't think the issues Trump has brought up are critically important to it's capabilities. Does anyone else except Trump and co. think it is?

It is not a terrible notion for Trump to bring up. It's just hard to take seriously that he cares about the well-being of things that aren't him when he will simultaneously ignore an actual threat like climate change.

Germany can defend themselves because they're one of richest countries in the world and are on the top 20 Military Strength Index list.

You can make an argument that NATO's existence itself may rival action against climate change, but that's not the question I asked. I asked if the lack of spending Trump is bleating about rivals it. So that's one flat out ignore of the question, and now a bulls*** deflective answer. Trump's stance on climate change is a matter of public record. He believes it's a hoax and won't be taking any measures to prevent it.

Saying Germany can't defend itself against an attack is a ridiculous claim, and your second deflection of my question is truly pathetic especially when you're such an insufferable little twat when you think someone is ignoring you. wahhh wahh trog isn't answering me maybe if I mention it five posts in a row he'll notice me. You know what Pete? I think you're a Trump supporter but you're just too cowardly to come out and admit it.

So give me the standard douchebag playbook response - that the points you raise are too hard for me to deal with and I am copping out under the shadow of your enormous and overpowering intellect, because while your wait and see and what if approach was sort of reasonable at first it is starting to become absurd.
07:37pm 29/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12778 posts
Coals time is up ?
Coal usage has been increasing and will be increasing for decades to come.

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAaeAAAAJGFlNWEyYWM1LTM3OTItNDRkNi05ZjdiLTZiNzdlY2Q5NjY3Yw.png

Coal, oil and gas meet around 80% of the world’s energy needs and have done so for the last 25 years. Coal use has been rapidly increasing, and may well overtake oil. And that has happened despite massive investments and subsidies in renewables and hydro.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/coal-inconvenient-necessity-why-you-should-consider-investment-eames

God Bless Coal
and God Bless President Trump and The New World Order


07:44pm 29/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2568 posts
I think NATO is important. I don't think the issues Trump has brought up are critically important to it's capabilities. Does anyone else except Trump and co. think it is?


They are because its capabilities are founded very heavily on US capability.


Germany can defend themselves because they're one of richest countries in the world and are on the top 20 Military Strength Index list.


in position 18 after military giants like Poland and Australia. Australian Geo-political strategy is based on US involvement. So if we can't defend ourselves without US help and we don't buy virtually all our oil from a likely aggressor (who happens to be nearly ten times more powerful according to your list), No it is not a ridiculous claim that absent the safety NATO provides that Germany can't defend itself. Germany relies on collective defense because having an independently powerful military is still a politically tricky subject in the country.

I asked if the lack of spending Trump is bleating about rivals it. So that's one flat out ignore of the question, and now a bulls*** deflective answer. Trump's stance on climate change is a matter of public record. He believes it's a hoax and won't be taking any measures to prevent it.


The funding question cuts directly to NATO's viability so I would rate it as a valid question to its future existence. So actually it was a direct answer to your question. Putting aside the fact that I was talking about how the talks were covered in the media, and you introduced a red herring to the topic with OMG climate change is way important. I'll spell it out to you again, I view concrete policy outcomes about the equity of NATO's funding arrangements as *much more* important than donald trumps views on climate change, action about climate change, or climate change as a general non-descript threat frankly. I tried to tie it to something concrete but you s*** your pants. You don't have a specific complaint. You are just wailing. Again. For example:

It's just hard to take seriously that he cares about the well-being of things that aren't him when he will simultaneously ignore an actual threat like climate change.


So like I was saying, when asked for concrete examples to be actually upset about you go to this. Then you complain I'm deflecting.

that the points you raise are too hard for me to deal with and I am copping out under the shadow of your enormous and overpowering intellect


If the shoe fits fpot, if the shoe fits.

You claim you used to argue in detail, but I've seen virtually no evidence of it. Whenever you're pushed you never actually come back with a well structured argument. In relation to trump you appear to think that you not liking him means something to anyone other than yourself.

You can call me a trump supporter all you want. I'm not and it doesn't change the fact that you have failed to ever express a reason for disliking trump other than the most superficial s*** imaginable. You never talk about a policy he has adopted. It's always he is a white supremacist rape supporter who displays insufficient concern about climate change for you tastes. Therefore eeeeevvviiiillll.
09:18pm 29/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38967 posts
God Bless Coal
and God Bless President Trump and The New World Order
I definitely recommend you make your investment decisions based on that graph and that article. Just don't look at the recent data!
11:42pm 29/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21263 posts
God Bless Coal


what is wrong with you.
07:57am 30/05/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16746 posts
Pete:

America certainly has shouldered the majority burden of global security post WW2 and the rest of the West has enjoyed significantly lower defence spending because of this. Its called 'Pax Americana' for a reason.

But this has hardly been a free ride. America has called the shots and the rest of us have largely towed the line and fought where she led. Vietnam, Korea, both the Iraq wars and Afghanistan were American objectives either supported or forgiven by her allies. The use of the USD as the global currency has been described as a massive loan to the United States and has been unchallenged by the West. Meanwhile the Russians and the Chinese have been arguing for a global basket of currencies for a long time now, and relatively recently stopped trading in USD between themselves.

Trump needs to be very careful here, for the sake of America and the world. Calling in the bill may also result in the loss of hegemony which could be quite risky.
08:10am 30/05/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2065 posts
06:05pm 30/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25868 posts
Again, you don't answer the question. Does anyone think that European defense spending is a major issue except for Trump, his cronies, or you?

Reckon there's much chance those countries above Germany will be invading anytime soon? What sort of military conflict do you propose is a realistic possibility that Germany can't defend herself from? Give me a quick scenario.

Climate change is a done thing. Its causes and effects are well documented. The consequences of ignoring it and the reasons certain governments do so is known. It is because more money now and who gives a f*** about later. You asking me to post something substantial about it is a deflective tactic - we're both well aware of what's going on. The only difference is you don't seem to care for some reason. Almost like you're willing to ignore it for some greater purpose. Certain things, climate change denial being one of them, allow a giant red line to be drawn through someone's name. Everytime they prattle about safety and security it brings their motives into question, because if they're not taking action against it, how can they possibly care about safety and security? A concrete example is one you already know about - Trump signalling his intention to leave the Paris Agreement. You do remember he's only been in for 130 days right? He does f*** things up amazingly quickly, but producing a chargesheet specifically targeting climate change isn't possible yet. The fact that he's on record denying it and the recent news about leaving the Paris Agreement should be enough for any reasonable person to see what the future holds.

So just out of curiosity, why do you not give a f*** what he tweets? They are literally his own words published directly onto the internet. Unless of course the person he's hired to do it doesn't know how to spell, which I find unlikely. I know crazy tweets from the POTUS is kind of a new thing, and new things tend to be treated with skepticism, but they're just so telling. Like the time he defended Ryan for the Healthcare bill f*** up in public but then tweeted to watch Fox News at a certain time. The thing on Fox News was some talking head SLAMMING Ryan and putting the blame soley on him. What a backstabbing cowardly thing to do. Plus you know, all the other 100s of crazy things he has tweeted.
08:02pm 30/05/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3267 posts
Without getting too involved I'd just chip in to say I think you're way off the mark on the military realities here fpot.

There's no way Germany could defend themselves from a serious invasion, especially from the likes of Russia. Germany in particular is famous for the incapability of their armed forces, admittedly that was kind of intentional due to the political issues of Germany having a capable military.

None of the EU countries could defend themselves. All of the NATO member countries, and others like Australia, structure their defence forces entirely around pivotal US involvement, and have been for decades. Not many have the force projection or logistical capabilities that the US has, to mention a couple of key things, which would make fighting a sustained war extremely difficult if not impossible for them.

I'd be inclined to agree with Hog, these countries have paid for this arrangement in a myriad of other ways, not to mention it was actually one of the initial objectives of the arrangement, so as to prevent EU military build-up post WW2. Although I also think they should all pay their 2%, and I'm kind of pro a serious EU armed forces. I don't think Trump's approach here is the right one.

edit:

Everyone thinks European (and NATO) defence spending is an issue, it's been a bone of contention for ages, they all rely on the US way too heavily. The reality of long-term military conflict between great powers, or the need for a robust great power balance system, as the world returns to that of a multipolar world order instead of a unipolar one - is widely discussed and acknowledged I think. As is the very real threat of more European based conflict with Russia. I mean, earlier this year Putin was on record saying that they could take five NATO capitals in a matter of days. Admittedly all Eastern European countries, but also all members of NATO and many bordering Germany. One of Putin's well known goals is the dissolution of NATO and Europe so that Russia can reclaim some previous USSR countries and start to build a new USSR of sorts, in addition to, and in support of, disrupting the current international world order. If you doubt the veracity of that Russian threat, just go check out some local news in Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
08:36pm 30/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2569 posts
Which question do you want answered fpot. Do I think NATO trumps climate change or are concerns limited to trump over funding. the answers are yes and no respectively.

Does anyone think that European defense spending is a major issue except for Trump, his cronies, or you?


Does Barak Obama count? . funny how the guardian's opinion changes with the winds innit, probably explains why they want to focus of gaffs. Pretty sure Bernie sanders has a fact check on him somewhere about spending too much on NATO as well.

The Americans for at least the last decade have been making increasing noises that they no longer consider not meeting spending obligations acceptable. So yeah it is a complaint that runs beyond trump and his "cronies". I can't be bothered to look them up buy I have also read interviews with US generals complaining about the risk of having extra countries join, who don't meet the spending requirements and consequently stretch American forces thinner.

They have never complained about shouldering the lions share, the funding arrangements have always been based on percentage of GDP, so seeing as the US has a larger GPD than the European union (so larger again that the remaining NATO alliance) it is has always been predicated on them spending more. The issue is that even that agreement isn't being upheld. The Germans have acknowledged and implemented a plan to meet the commitment by 2024. but of all NATO members 4 meet the spending requirements.

It is an issue within the organisation that needs to get dealt with, and how that gets handled will have immediate and profound consequences for global security. You can go look up david frum for more information about how the geo-politics of that are likely to play out. additionally information sharing has profound consequences for policing terrorism.

in terms of a direct threat Germany couldn't face down, the answer is Russia. Russia would snap Germany like a twig, but for NATO. How likely that is to take place, who knows? But I can tell you it certainly will not happen as long as NATO is a thing. NATO not in the picture, more likely. In case you haven't noticed Russia has been rather aggressive in the five years. If you think they don't have contingencies on how to invade Germany I think you're naive. However, as hogfather points out, NATO's influence extends beyond Europe. Therefore how the organisation conducts itself has ramifications beyond just defense of the members. Not having to worry about self defense as much allows for force projection the member states would not otherwise be capable of. For example the Netherlands peacekeeping the in Balkans in the 90's. It didn't go flawlessly but they wouldn't have been there at all without the safety collective defence brings. But it all hinges on the US's unique ability to deploy massive power globally.

In respect of climate change, yes I am willing to place many things ahead of it, because they represent achievable progress or regress. With respect to climate change I actually think the policy territory plays out in more complex ways than you are describing. I refer you to the Greens sinking a carbon trade scheme for nakedly ideological reasons. Not really possible to claim they don't think climate change is real and it was done for profit. I'm happy for you to go into more depth in relation to paris, but so far as Im aware they agreed to limit warming to 2 degrees, but provided no framework on how to actually achieve that.

But moreover, in terms things to worry about, NATO not operating smoothly has the potential to take lives right now. I refer to how Libya has played out as an example of the relationship breaking down and costing lives.

You do remember he's only been in for 130 days right?


Yeah, I do. Are you sure you do? he has released the America First plan or whatever it was called. There is policy you could go look up and complain about. But you don't and that's my point.

In respect of twitter, I don't give a f*** what he says because nothing seems to end up playing out as stated on twitter. But further there is virtually nothing he hasn't contradicted himself on. to give an example in term of foreign policy trump has tweeted all sorts of crazy s***, but standard US policy seems to be actually being implemented.

a specific example, on twitter he called the Saudi prince a big d*******, but then he was over their groveling just this week. (which I agree with trog is scandalous, but not one limited to trump, they have all done it since carter).

You can engage *again* in speculating about deep personality insight if you like, but I don't anyone has had any great success in predicting outcomes based on the strength of these so called insights.
08:58pm 30/05/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25869 posts
What are the chances of Germany facing a serious invasion let alone a serious invasion from Russia? Not zero but low. Which is why NATO is important as a deterrent to keep the chances low and combat against it should Germany (or any NATO country) ever come under threat. My question is, are the spending issues raised by Trump a serious threat to the capabilities and integrity of NATO in carrying out the things I have just mentioned? I've been criticised for not producing something concrete on climate change (discussed ad nauseum for over a decade and outside loony conspiracy circles a settled topic) yet am still waiting on something concrete for the question I have asked.

Or maybe I am underestimating Russia. They do seem to be very busy lately getting up in everyone's s***.
09:06pm 30/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2570 posts
Again, you don't answer the question. Does anyone think that European defense spending is a major issue except for Trump, his cronies, or you?


Funny how when I say Barak Obama and Bernie complained about the funding the question changes isn't it.

My question is, are the spending issues raised by Trump a serious threat to the capabilities and integrity of NATO in carrying out the things I have just mentioned?


It can't really be that difficult to wrap you're head around fpot.

Germany being invaded by Russia is a remote possibility because NATO exists. But more importantly the ability of Germany to do anything about Russia doing stuff in Eastern Europe is the real question. They annexed crimea without any serious opposition in Europe, and it is of note that Ukraine was angling for membership in NATO. So actually Russian aggression in Eastern Europe is a very real and present danger. Germany and the rest of Europe didn't go putin too hard because he just turns off the gas. If NATO isn't functioning well or the US withdraws because various countries are taking the piss Russian aggression may well get worse. this all totally standard European geo-politics fpot. (read your post after typing this Viper).

The funding issue cuts against US involvement in NATO.

Without the US NATO is a hollow shell.

This is an issue the *Germans* themselves have acknowledged.

but further the problem is more widespread than simply Germany. NATO has changed in focus and membership dramatically in the last 30 years, and the umbrella of protection has spread much faster than funding to ensure the umbrella actually stays up in a storm.

These are the specifics of the concerns being addressed.
09:47pm 30/05/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16747 posts
Without the US NATO is a hollow shell.

When has Article V been invoked since 1949?
10:02pm 30/05/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38968 posts
Everyone thinks European (and NATO) defence spending is an issue, it's been a bone of contention for ages, they all rely on the US way too heavily.
You think the rest of the world relies on it, wait til you see how much the US military-industrial complex (ugh it's so hard to write that phrase and not feel like a tinfoil hat wearing hippy alarmist) relies on it! Part of the reason that they've been able to justify so much spending is their requirement as being defender of the planet. I legit think that there would be as much (if not more) pressure internally from their contractors to stay part of NATO to continue justifying their reeedonkulous defence spending. Lockheed Martin (one company) employs something like 2x as many as the entire coal industry (I have/had a mate that worked there doing crazy scary s*** like it was just a normal office job. f*****g weird)
10:06pm 30/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5367 posts
God bless this new world order indeed, Faceman.

Just a lil reminder

http://i.imgur.com/EiO1br9.png

But lets not pay attention to what our world leaders think, that isn't important at all. /facepalm

Climate change is only the #1 issue humanity will face this century, unless nuclear war hits first, or whatever else.
11:10pm 30/05/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3268 posts

Yeah don't mean to be condescending, but this European geopolitics is indeed pretty standard fair and awfully serialz for them. Russia is defo a clear and present danger, just ask the Ukrainians (they're still fighting)! Obviously much less of a concern or news in places like Aus.

imo Putin's Russia is one of the greatest risks to global peace & prosperity at the moment (for sure a critical strategic threat to the EU), along with China's rise to great power or vying super power status (although they've taken a very positive diplomatic stance of late), and climate change of course.

Aha, no question there trog, I'm sure you're right. A colleague of mine met a 3 or 4 star US general recently and he was telling him (my pal) all about how procurement in the US military is fubar. The general was saying he has to sign off multi-million dollar orders with no real idea of their practical effectiveness or benefit. In a way all the NATO members paying their share and pulling their weight militarily might allow the US to start to reform their military, who knows. Their military industrial complex is a nightmare and needs reform imo.

Interestingly the only time Article V has ever been invoked was by the US on 11th September 2001.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5


12:27am 31/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2571 posts
When has Article V been invoked since 1949?


I'm not sure I understand how the US invoking Article V is a rebuttal to NATO being over reliant US military power. But when you consider the 60 years of NATO and one use of article 5 and compare that to the 60 years before that, suddenly it ain't look so bad. 'pax americana' beats the s*** out of anything we'd tried to that point.

I legit think that there would be as much (if not more) pressure internally from their contractors to stay part of NATO to continue justifying their reeedonkulous defence spending.


You could well be right, but that strikes me as a different question. How the US elects to spend to defend itself is a matter for the US. I'm not here to say its done wisely or effectively (though it is worth noting US military capability is without question the most advanced on the planet), US strategy since WW2 has been to be capable of beating the next two most powerful countries in a war at the same time, so it is very likely they will be spending massively for the foreseeable future. but that doesn't mean there isn't a gap between what the US public wants to spend and what is required to keep NATO an effective force (NATO includes basically all of Europe and North America now). Either way the concern with NATO funding is the 25 or so countries that can't defend themselves but heighten the risk the US could get dragged into a war.

I don't think it is an unreasonable complaint.

I agree hogfather it is serious stuff, and that trump needs to walk a line (and here's hoping he forest gumps his way through), so you'd think it could warrant some serious appraisal of what is going on rather then the buzzfeed list of gifs action its received so far.
07:44am 31/05/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21264 posts
Or maybe I am underestimating Russia. They do seem to be very busy lately getting up in everyone's s***.


Everyone seems to have forgotten that a couple of years ago Russia just invaded and took a chunk of the Ukraine, just because it could and no one stopped it.

Putin is a maniac.
08:03am 31/05/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12779 posts
Kathy Griffin decapitates Trump ?
American Liberals are a disgrace.

http://storage.torontosun.com/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297959378790_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=420x

dont expect any condemnation because:
Climate Change
The Russians
Trump is gonna push the button
The White Supremacists
Bruce Jenner is a Woman
Sugar
White Privilege
Black Lives Matter
Climate Change (again)
Gay Marriage
Hillary got more votes
Islamophobia


https://i.imgflip.com/w8eir.jpg



12:10pm 31/05/17 Permalink
Vash
5368 posts
Kathy Griffin decapitates Trump ? American Liberals are a disgrace.


Except that many liberals have said she is a disgrace. Don't get stuck in thinking that when one American Liberal does something dumb, then all of them are thinking she did the right thing.

If the left thought all Trump supporters were white supremacists and were capable of going on a black murdering spree at any moment, well civil war wouldn't be too far off.
10:31pm 31/05/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2572 posts
I think Kathy Griffin is fine.


But when you say TWH that "many liberals" what do you mean exactly? one liberal, two liberals or twenty liberals?
Because "magnanimous in defeat" isn't leaping to mind with the left and trump.

If your views on gun control are representative, I'm not to worried about a "civil war".
11:15pm 01/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5369 posts


spicy
11:56pm 01/06/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4013 posts
Which one is Kathy Griffin? I can't tell oranges apart.
12:23am 02/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2066 posts
Kathy Griffin decapitates Trump ?
American Liberals are a disgrace.


It's free speech you snowflake.
09:06am 02/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6485 posts
If the left thought all Trump supporters were white supremacists and were capable of going on a black murdering spree at any moment, well civil war wouldn't be too far off.


lol
11:07am 02/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12782 posts
Free Speech doesnt protect you from criticism.

I wish I had art skillz, I would draw Trump holding a smoking Earth by some chimney stacks.

"The Paris accord would undermine our economy, hamstring our workers, weaken our sovereignty, impose unacceptable legal risk, and put us as a permanent disadvantage to the other countries of the world.” Read more at

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/06/02/04/56/trump-to-pull-out-of-paris-accord-climate-agreement-breaking-ranks-with-190-countries#OGpFiqV8B0icOkkg.99

SO why did we sign on to this ?
We didnt even get a choice, it was Labor and Labor-Lite who decided we were in.
12:07pm 02/06/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12174 posts
Because we have this thing called science.
02:57pm 02/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3269 posts
If the left thought all Trump supporters were white supremacists and were capable of going on a black murdering spree at any moment, well civil war wouldn't be too far off.


I also thought this was lol, as that's exactly what a lot of the left touted.

I'm enjoying Macron's shenanigans. Calling out Putin's hacking and propaganda to his face, and now a straight up dig at Trump.

06:12pm 02/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5370 posts
Funny how the French president does a better speech in English than the U.S president does.

I haven't seen any indication the left thinks Trump supporters would want to murder blacks. But i could be wrong.
06:21pm 02/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12783 posts
Is there really a problem because the Paris solution appears to do very little

">https://www.facebook.com/CraigKellyMP/photos/a.117937578400885.1073741828.117871478407495/717569955104308/?type=3&theater'/>

last edited by FaceMan at 18:44:19 02/Jun/17
06:42pm 02/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38971 posts
I also thought this was lol, as that's exactly what a lot of the left touted.
"a lot"? I never saw that particular (asinine) position until now. even my hardcore democrat-supporting family don't think Trump or his supporters are racists (edit: outside of a few edge cases)

as an unrelated aside it is disturbing how often people are caught up in the "some [right|left] wing person said [x] and therefore [x] is the position of the [right|left] wing" mentality

every time I see this kind of thing now, especially in the context of the US (and also Australia but less so) it makes me wonder how we can try to re-introduce nuance into discussions and all I can come up with is we should delete Twitter. (edit: and in light of the stereotypical post above, Facebook)

How else can we fix it?
06:48pm 02/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3270 posts
Yeah so I suppose I mean all of the commentary and criticism indicating all Trump voters to be racist and/or sexist in some way, not necessarily wanting to 'murder black people' per say. I haven't gone back and looked but I'm sure it was a line that Vash and fpot were tacitly towing also. I saw a lot of that in a lot of media coverage all over the place back just after the election.
07:09pm 02/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5371 posts
Also notice the language that "lefties heads are exploding everywhere" as if to think anyone who thinks action on climate change is a good idea, is a dirty leftie, when 77% of Australians support action on it. Are all 77 percent of those people leftists? Don't think so.
I think the numbers are similar in the states.

It's just another case of people voting against their own interests because they're not engaged in politics enough.
07:14pm 02/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12784 posts
when 77% of Australians support action on it.


But the Action is virtually nothing.
That Agreement is pointless gibberish.

What is it you are fighting for Vash ?
to lower the Temperature by 0.1 of a degree 100 years from now ?
Thats f*****g stupid... TO THE MAX

Can you understand my point ?
That Agreement goes nowhere near solving a problem that we are told will end life on this Planet.


07:50pm 02/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5372 posts
So the solution is to not use it? And im not sure how accurate those forecasts are, but i haven't looked into it much.
Even if the impact is minimal, the changes promote economies to move away from fossil fuels. There's heaps of jobs & economic activity that comes with a green economy. Trump doesn't seem to understand that.
That was the entire idea behind a carbon tax.
08:40pm 02/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38972 posts
to lower the Temperature by 0.1 of a degree 100 years from now ?
Thats f*****g stupid... TO THE MAX
nah. amazingly (!!) it is more complicated than that. you need to compare it (for starters) against what happens if we do nothing. You can't just say "0.1 degree" and pretend that is insignificant because a) there are a billion other variables that need to be taken into consideration and b) that represents a staggering mind boggling change in the amount of energy planet wide anyway.

However! I agree that looking at timescales of 100 years is kinda impossible. But I guess that's why the Paris thingy doesn't talk about :D

I predict a Scott Adams post talking about how this is a brilliant Trump decision because he's created another scenario where he can't lose though
09:01pm 02/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25873 posts
Well you don't necessarily have to be racist to be a Trump supporter. It's quite possible you could be prejudiced against one of the other groups he promotes hate against. Poor people, the disabled, women. You could also just be dumb I suppose and actually believe the Make America Great again thing.

But there is of course the people who apparently voted for him out of desperation. If you literally don't have enough money to eat and provide for your family you're prone to do anything. I am just a bit confused what part of his campaign gave people the idea he gave a s*** about that sort of thing. Did I miss something in between when he was making fun of of the disabled journalist who wrote stuff he didn't like, inciting the crowd to beat up a protester and calling for the arrest and imprisonment of his political opponents?
09:02pm 02/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2573 posts
Yeah see viper, you don't have to be racist, you could also be sexist if you voted for trump. but you're definitely a bigot of some kind if you voted for trump.

I guess when Hilary was talking about deplorables she meant in terms of personal hygiene.
09:35pm 02/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38973 posts
But there is of course the people who apparently voted for him out of desperation.
I think that numbers pales into comparison with:

- Republicans who will only /ever/ vote Republican (the bulk, I suspect)
- Swinging voters who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton and so voted Republican or didn't vote at all
11:18pm 02/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25874 posts
but you're definitely a bigot of some kind if you voted for trump.
Well I did say two other things. I gotta be honest, if you aren't them, how can you have voted for Trump and not be bigoted in some way? I'll be fair, if you can describe a good scenario I'll say I'm wrong which I strongly suspect I am. Just describe the thought process for me, please.

- Republicans who will only /ever/ vote Republican (the bulk, I suspect)
This is a pretty good one. People who vote Republican no matter what. Never really understood the mindset though. Seems to me if this happens enough some sort of critical mass will be reached and democracy will die.
11:19pm 02/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12785 posts
it is more complicated than that. you need to compare it (for starters) against what happens if we do nothing.


you mean like this ?

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/343356821c1d36f7f50c140eae8ad3f1?width=650

http://www.lomborg.com/press-release-research-reveals-negligible-impact-of-paris-climate-promises



11:47pm 02/06/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1306 posts
This is... by far.....the best political thread I have read all week.

You guys are really starting to click now.
12:39am 03/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38974 posts
Never really understood the mindset though.
Me either until I lived there for a bit and realised that infi's seemingly completely bizarre comment (about the only thing Trump could do to put him offside in his eyes was raise taxes) is probably pretty close to the mark. But remember a lot of these people also grow up believing in skybeards so their critical thinking faculties are largely outsourced to anyone that will tell them, with any sort of confidence, what they should be doing with their lives.

edit: I should add I know a few Republican voters that are able to clearly articulate why they vote Republican (tho I haven't had the opportunity to ask them if they voted Trump). They legit believe in what I think are the "pure" Republican ideals - small government, efficient markets solving problems, civil liberties, states rights. Talk to these people for ten minutes and you'll see what is great about the Republican party. They are equally disgusted with people like Trump who embody the old boy's club that talks the talk but never, ever walks the walk. They are literally the Will Mcavoy types - ideologically they seem to find themselves unable to vote for Democrats so they close their eyes and think of England (or whatever) when they get to the polling booth.
01:46am 03/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38975 posts
you mean like this ?
well I already agreed looking at it from a timeline of a 100 years is pointless

but no, I don't think that information is useful either. I am not married to the Paris thing but I think it is a useful political motivator and unifier that will help spread investment into renewables. Again as I said above I think we might almost have already passed the market-driven watershed point where government intervention might not even be required (although I think market intervention in coal might be enough to f*** up all the gains that have been made in renewables).

I am not one of these people that wants to stop using your beloved coal immediately because I recognise that a) it's cheap and b) it's reliable. But once we have a slight increase of homes and businesses in Australia with solar on their roof (ignoring dedicated renewables, etc) coal is going to become next to completely f*****g worthless. The power demand drop in peak times - for Australia, when the sun is out which, having lived in the northern hemisphere for almost 4 years, it practically is all the time by comparison - will be yuuuge.

There will always be a place for coal though. But like the copper phone network I see it as a backup when the new s*** is busted.
02:12am 03/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38977 posts
03:01am 03/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5373 posts

UK election is looking interesting. Thought Mays would have this one in the bag.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/uk-election-theresa-mays-early-election-gamble-looks-set-to-backfire-20170602-gwiulk.html


08:35am 03/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2574 posts
"a lot"? I never saw that particular (asinine) position until now. even my hardcore democrat-supporting family don't think Trump or his supporters are racists (edit: outside of a few edge cases)


I think we've read all we need to. You can either be bigoted or dumb.

Well you don't necessarily have to be racist to be a Trump supporter. It's quite possible you could be prejudiced against one of the other groups he promotes hate against. Poor people, the disabled, women. You could also just be dumb I suppose and actually believe the Make America Great again thing.
Me either until I lived there for a bit and realised that infi's seemingly completely bizarre comment (about the only thing Trump could do to put him offside in his eyes was raise taxes) is probably pretty close to the mark. But remember a lot of these people also grow up believing in skybeards so their critical thinking faculties are largely outsourced to anyone that will tell them, with any sort of confidence, what they should be doing with their lives.


I note you didn't refer to your rusted on democrat family members as having outsourced their critical faculties. Though if you're rusted on voter by definition you have. You also bemoan the lack of nuance in public debate, pretty f*****g funny really to be calling people dumb and then score an own goal like that in two posts. Be the change trog, be the change.

So yeah I think we have all we need to prove Vash's comment lol. thanks for coming.

I'll be fair, if you can describe a good scenario I'll say I'm wrong which I strongly suspect I am.


You feel Americas trade arrangements are undermining your particular industry, and the economic recovery never seems to turn up. Then Trump promises to pull out of said trade agreements, and he did.

I don't know exactly why, but the idea that the three key states moved because of bigotry primarily when they were all Obama states both times is retarded. It also puts the wind to trogs idea of unthinking god lovers. A bunch of people changed their vote for the first time many decades, and their prior voting record (if that is the standard we are going to use to ascribe it) proves they aren't bigoted.
08:57am 03/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6486 posts
Well you don't necessarily have to be racist to be a Trump supporter. It's quite possible you could be prejudiced against one of the other groups he promotes hate against.


lol

I should add I know a few Republican voters that are able to clearly articulate why they vote Republican (tho I haven't had the opportunity to ask them if they voted Trump). They legit believe in what I think are the "pure" Republican ideals - small government, efficient markets solving problems, civil liberties, states rights. Talk to these people for ten minutes and you'll see what is great about the Republican party. They are equally disgusted with people like Trump who embody the old boy's club that talks the talk but never, ever walks the walk. They are literally the Will Mcavoy types - ideologically they seem to find themselves unable to vote for Democrats so they close their eyes and think of England (or whatever) when they get to the polling booth.


Respect. I don't always agree with you but wish more people could approach this sort of stuff as maturely as you do. This election was a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea for principled conservatives and libertarians. The fact that there was an open sc seat probably got many of them to hold their nose but I suspect that won't be the case in 2020 and the way things are going they won't turn out again.
09:01am 03/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2575 posts
Difficult to refer to trog as being mature in relation to this, when he doesn't think left wing folks think it was bigoted to vote for trump in the middle of a thread full of left wing folks saying you have to have been bigoted to vote for trump, then has to edit a post to make mention that principled republicanism is even possible.

Personally it stinks of a slightly more articulate tribalism to me.
09:30am 03/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38978 posts
I don't always agree with you
what! how dare you!

I would be interested to know about what though especially if it's economics-related. I am still only discovering "economics" as a thing with any sort of level of detail. So I would be very interested if I am saying things that are counter to x years of standard knowledge in the area, for example.
06:31pm 03/06/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12175 posts
This bloke speaks the truth:

06:58pm 03/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2068 posts
No need to go vegan, just don't eat f*****g beef and sheeps.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8G4wzBVUAAHH_t.jpg
07:18pm 03/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5374 posts
I've reduced my beef intake since i saw that climate doco.
I don't think asking people to eat less beef or buy this certain 'climate approved' product is going to work. We need legislation, perhaps create incentives for people to eat lab grown meat instead.
07:43pm 03/06/17 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12176 posts
It seems there are some misleading statistics in that video I posted, maybe he doesn't speak the truth after all. But the fact remains that we can all reduce our carbon footprint by changing our diet, and improve our health at the same time.
10:31pm 03/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12786 posts
Give up Meat ?
Excuse me WTF are you doing ?

You know thats how those Commies gained power last century
Low Protein Diets (often no Food at all)

11:45pm 03/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38979 posts
You know thats how those Commies gained power last century
I think you might be mistaking cause and effect there :D
12:22am 04/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40618 posts
im not giving up meat, its delicious!
06:40am 04/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12788 posts

Economics Lesson #1
The Laffer Curve




12:27pm 04/06/17 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
2702 posts
You can take my meat from my cold dead hands.

We could try and eat human meat, there are plenty of humans around. Plus it would reduce the carbon footprint because those people who get eaten will not be around. Question is, who gets eaten?

Next thing you know, there will be sustainably sourced human meat and free range human meat at wholefoods lol.

I'm kidding though. Meat grown in a vat at a lab does not sound too appealing but I would give it a go, if it's pretty much the same thing.
06:11pm 04/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7650 posts
Cheap flights to London
06:22pm 04/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38981 posts
On the meat thing: I started doing "Vegetarian Tuesdays" a few years ago as an experiment. The goals were vague but basically wanted to decrease my meat intake (particularly red meat), primarily for environmental reasons, and wanted to try to eat more varied foods.

After I discovered that vegetarian curries were particularly delicious I have since changed my eating habits massively. I still love a steak but my vegetarian intake is probably closer to 50%-70% now (whereas before it was basically when I ate cereal).

If you are like I was & used to basically be a meat & two veg eater for every meal I'd encourage you to try a single vegetarian day per week just to try new foods. I am still surprised by how much my eating habits have changed as a result. I notice it especially when I'm back visiting my parents & I eat my previous usual meals that seem by comparison to be all meat, all the time.
06:26pm 04/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12789 posts
We could try and eat human meat, there are plenty of humans around. Plus it would reduce the carbon footprint because those people who get eaten will not be around. Question is, who gets eaten?


The Herbivores - greens voters
Trog on Tuesdays
06:48pm 04/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5375 posts
Meat grown in a vat at a lab does not sound too appealing but I would give it a go, if it's pretty much the same thing.


Apparently it tastes the same, and It would probably be better for you too. Considering the stuff they put into cattle nowadays. Also, we need to reduce our use of anti biotics in animals, so if we consume less meat, we would see a reduction in anti biotic resistance, and less emissions from meat production. win-win.
07:02pm 04/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3271 posts
Yeah I think the all Trump voters must be bigots of some kind conclusion went out the window when it turned out that a bunch of swing states that voted for Obama twice voted for Trump. It seems to me we all underestimated how bad its really got in those rust belt places - they need jobs, money and food for realz, whatever the cost.

I've seen the bio meat too and it looks great to me, I'm all for it as I agree we need to reduce the environmental, and the inhumane, impact of the meat industry, but I do love eating meat. The bio meat is supposedly indistinguishable from the real thing and better all round, sounds like a win! I also reduced my meat intake a couple years back, mainly to be healthier as too much meat is unhealthy, but also for environmental and inhumane aspects.



lol at the laffer curve, more like let's talk about some outdated Republican favoured economic theories that have never really been shown to work very well. Another classic from the Reaganomics bag of voodoo economics, like the other favourite, trickle down theory. All these ever really seem to do is benefit big business and the wealthy.

N. Gregory Mankiw, a Harvard University economist who was chairman of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers under the younger Mr. Bush, said tax cut supporters exaggerate the possible growth benefits while opponents overemphasize the budgetary cost. “A reasonable rule of thumb, in my judgment, is that about one-third of the cost of tax cuts is recouped via faster economic growth,” he said.
Arthur Laffer’s Theory on Tax Cuts Comes to Life Once More
08:45pm 04/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38983 posts
I'd never heard of the Laffer curve so I googled "laffer curve noahpinion" to see what my favourite economist thinks of it and at a glance (it's quite technical!) he seems to agree with Viper.
07:36pm 05/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6487 posts
The Laffer curve is a legimate economic concept in that all taxes distort economic activity to varying degrees and there is a theoretical revenue maximising real tax rate that if you increase rates beyond or decrease rates below you will lower the total tax revenue received.

It's also plausible that there would be a divergence between the short term and long term Laffer peak.

I don't think the US or aus for that matter currently sit on the downward sloping portion of the curve so tax cuts are unlikely to be self-funding. But I also don't think the purpose of government is to maximise taxation revenue.
10:13pm 05/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38984 posts
Yup, but (if I understand Noahpinion correctly) everyone that cites the Laffer peak as a reason to lower taxes turns out to end up doing so and then being massively short on revenue.

But when you say downward sloping portion - I assume you mean the right hand side (I see both sides as downward sloping from the middle which I guess probably makes me a pessimist)? Without knowing anything about it other than what I've read in the last 24 hours I imagine the right side to be way steeper than it is presented in the graphs in the video (i.e., once you pass the peak, the returns diminish very very quickly as people move to alternate economies, bitcoin, blah blah)
10:57pm 05/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6488 posts
Downward sloping in a mathematical sense. If tax rate is on x axis and revenue is on y axis as is normally presented (though Art Laffer drew it other way round when he conceptualised it in 1974 I believe) then left of peak the curve have a positive slope and right of peak has negative slope.
09:11am 06/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12790 posts
Andrew Bolt has been attacked at a book launch earlier today in Melbourne.
Bolt punched one of them in the face and kicked another in the wheels
Plus masked Left-wing protesters attack me outside a Melbourne book launch. Police are now looking for a Left-wing fascist with a big bruise on his face and another between his legs. They also want to speak to a tubbier protester once he’s stopped running.
We’ll show the video tonight.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/on-tonight-i-punch-leftwing-protesters-who-attacked-me-now-help-me-catch-him/news-story/15a86aaad07fa657625769affbcf9e73

The Left in this Country are becoming more violent and out of control.
Typical of The Lefty thugs they wore head coverings.


03:30pm 06/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5376 posts
One person attacking Bolt isn't 'out of control'
It's pretty typical to wear head coverings during any riot/protest. It's not unique to leftist protestors.

People i know who goto protests now wear face coverings because of certain right-wing groups threatening their life & families on frequent occasion.
06:57pm 06/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2069 posts

The Left in this Country are becoming more violent and out of control.
Typical of The Lefty thugs they wore head coverings.

"The Left" is an autonomous collective of peace.

You could replace "The Left" with Reclaim Australia and it would read exactly the same. Who is "The Left"?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/dancing-policeman-terrorists-would-smile/news-story/8fea2d37e1536fe3c178fa2af8a72bc4

Does "The Right" think a dancing police is the end of western civilisation? Is Andrew Bolt the leader of The Right?
07:39pm 06/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38985 posts
^ I missed that story, what is the deal ?
05:46pm 07/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2576 posts
Sam dastyari was stripped of his shadow cabinet position for taking inappropriate donations from wealthy Chinese folks.

He has claimed he was helping the donors with their citizenship applications.
06:47pm 07/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2365 posts

^ I missed that story, what is the deal ?
http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/four-corners/NC1704H017S00
06:51pm 07/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38987 posts
"The Adobe Flash player plug-in is required to watch video on the iview website. If you are using a smart TV please check the applications section of your device for the ABC iview application." goddammit abc! spend my tax dollars better!@#
07:27pm 07/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2070 posts
"The Adobe Flash player plug-in is required to watch video on the iview website. If you are using a smart TV please check the applications section of your device for the ABC iview application." goddammit abc! spend my tax dollars better!@#


Can you not use chrome?

Also lols at bolt being "attacked". He got sprayed with glitter. I am sure he looked fabulous fighting back against the glitter nazis.
11:40pm 07/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12792 posts
Bolt deserves a Bravery Award for fighting off Political Terrorists.
01:13am 08/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38988 posts
Can you not use chrome?
I disabled Flash a couple years ago everywhere

Fortunately the ABC has a transcript for weirdos like me!

I wasn't sure how I missed this whole story as it seems like BIG NEWZ but then I realised it's because I stopped reading the news after the London attacks because it's too f*****g boring to read the same factless idle speculation and fear from everywhere and I decided to not give them my clicks
02:23am 08/06/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
722 posts
I hate Left and Right terminology. To this day, either out of pure hatred or just idiocy I have not bothered to remember what each means. As trog has been trying to say over and over again in this thread, there are more nuances to people than these two diatomic terms.

Stop using those terms please.
11:56am 08/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12793 posts
01:08pm 08/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38989 posts
I find this Bolt thing to be too weird. Apparently the alleged attackers posted the video of them getting their ass kicked by Bolt. Why would they do that? If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd say it's was all a setup because wtf?
05:35pm 08/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38990 posts
bbl I have to go and vote in the UK election!! Who do I vote for to make my pounds worth more in AUD?! Isn't it weird that I can vote here and EU citizens who have lived here for decades can't?! DEMOCRACY IS CRAZY
05:37pm 08/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2071 posts
>Corbyn will never run
>Corbyn will never get elected by the Labour members
>Corbyn will never find any frontbenchers
>Corbyn will never hold on to power
>Corbyn will never win re-election
>Corbyn will never win re-election with an increased majority
>Corbyn will never bring the party out of debt
>Corbyn will never sing the national anthem
>Corbyn will never come back from 25%
>Corbyn will never prevent the LibDems from becoming the new opposition
>Corbyn will never support Article 50
>Corbyn will never support a GE in 2017
>Corbyn will never support Trident
>Corbyn will never support hard Brexit
>Corbyn will never abolish tuition fees
>Corbyn will never fully cost his manifesto
>Corbyn will never breach 30%
>Corbyn will never win over the working class
>Corbyn will never win over Liberals
>Corbyn will never win over Conservatives
>Corbyn will never win over lost UKIP voters
>Corbyn will never bring his party ahead in approval ratings
>Corbyn will never gain after Manchester
>Corbyn will never rally the North
>Corbyn will never close the gap to 5%
>Corbyn will never breach 40%
YOU ARE HERE
>Corbyn will never breach 50%
>Corbyn will never win the general election
>Corbyn will never be PM
>Corbyn will never reverse tax and spending cuts
>Corbyn will never establish a National Education Service
>Corbyn will never renationalise the rails without compensation
>Corbyn will never federalise the UK
>Corbyn will never get a good Brexit deal
>Corbyn will never dismantle the EU
>Corbyn will never abolish the monarchy
>Corbyn will never declare himself Chairman
>Corbyn will never send the Tory press to the gulags
06:23pm 08/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38991 posts
^^ haha

but maybe there should also be a "Corbyn will never condemn the IRA" on that list. That seems to be one of the biggest bugbears about him atm
08:13pm 08/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3272 posts
I dare say it'll probs be a tory win, although maybe a much lower majority then they had probably expected at the outset.

Might be the Lib Dems for you then trog! I agree with most of what the Economist had to say. The middle has fallen out of British politics
12:16am 09/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38992 posts
Might be the Lib Dems for you then trog!
They are a lost cause in my electorate (or as I discovered they are called here, constituency) but otherwise I was very tempted. One of my colleagues is a big supporter of them and has me convinced they're possibly going places & I like the looks of lots of their policies.

I'm avoiding the news for the next ~12 hours so I don't have to get caught up in the hype but I look forward to seeing the result. I would say the feeling on the ground here is not that it's a total lockin for the tories. But as usual I'm surrounded with pinko liberal latte-sipping lefty birkenstock-wearing socialist mask-wearing conservative-bashing smashed avo-eating immigrant-loving HIPPIES so I acknowledge I am in a pretty f*****g big filter bubble.
12:43am 09/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3273 posts
Yeah pool old Lib Dems and Greens are f***ed, so it's a tactical vote for May or Corbyn really.

Did you do one of these? http://www.whogetsmyvoteuk.com/

I got Lib Dems and Greens!
01:53am 09/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12794 posts
12:19pm 09/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21273 posts
pinko liberal latte-sipping lefty birkenstock-wearing socialist mask-wearing conservative-bashing smashed avo-eating immigrant-loving HIPPIES
12:33pm 09/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2072 posts
04:06pm 09/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38993 posts
Yeah pool old Lib Dems and Greens are f***ed, so it's a tactical vote for May or Corbyn really.

Did you do one of these? http://www.whogetsmyvoteuk.com/

I got Lib Dems and Greens!
yep and ditto :) I also did this which gave me Labor (as you'd expect because it's basically a "how to NOT vote Conservative the most effective way in your constituency" guide). BBC also had an interesting voting tool where you do a quiz about your constituency which was really interesting - things like average age, number of immigrants, etc, employed by public sector, etc.

Everyone seems happy with the result but literally nothing brought me more joy this morning than learning about Lord Buckethead and seeing this photo:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/a2006043d9399a5100e953a971352c1325a64c2f/0_216_4500_2700/master/4500.jpg?w=620&amp;q=55&amp;auto=format&amp;usm=12&amp;fit=max&amp;s=2d80419b516abe081e1bf2b50c4d36f1
05:49pm 09/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2073 posts
Corbyn is the most popular Labour leader since Blair.

What happened to UKIP? lel.

It is amazing someone who got no airtime, was slagged off by the majority of the media has run such a successful campaign. Mobilising young people is something that our major parties won't be doing going into the next election.
06:12pm 09/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38994 posts
turnout quite high amongst 18-25yos apparently (but still only 70something percent which I think is weird. this is just what happens when you don't offer democracy sausages)
06:17pm 09/06/17 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
2703 posts
I think it's weird that UK doesn't not have compulsory voting. The risk May took was calculated.....too bad she sucks at math though lol.

Lord Buckethead seems like a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything.
09:15pm 09/06/17 Permalink
taggs
6489 posts
I think most people get really s***ted off when they see politicians blatantly do things for cynical, opportunistic reasons like calling an early election purely because the polls look like they happen to be going your way.

Wouldn't be surprised if that was a serious influence.
07:44am 10/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12796 posts
I think The NHS played a role, The Conservatives are underfunding it, apparently it can take 3 weeks to see a Dr ? is that true ?

Pressure will be on to turn around Brexit, hopefully Boris the black knight takes over. Its kind of weird how such a Commie like Corbyn can do so well, there is really nobody like him in our current ALP.

That crazy greens woman Lee Rhiannon would be similar.
10:42am 10/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2074 posts
Its kind of weird how such a Commie like Corbyn can do so well, there is really nobody like him in our current ALP.

So weird how he ran on a platform of governing for the many, not the few.

Albo the people's champ is like Corbyn.
02:13pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5377 posts
Bring on the new world order of people like them as our world leaders.

http://i.imgur.com/NDC5H7Q.jpg
05:21pm 10/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25877 posts
Heh, Trump's actually going to be stupid enough to lie under oath isn't he?
05:52pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5327 posts
I'm almost certain he will (if he does at all) fpot
08:53pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3274 posts
Corbyn is hardly a commie, although he's certainly hard left.

I think the result was a rejection of May's a) lack of communication about her plans, b) her seemingly hard brexit tact (48% don't want to brexit at all!) and c) a bunch of the classical tory f*** the poor aspects of her manifesto (they have indeed been gutting the NHS). Not to mention no-one voted for her, and Cameron's tory party only won because labour was a shambles with Ed Miliband. I knew many a reluctant tory voter in that general election. I'd also say that the general state of things re: growing wealth inequality and wage disparity is what's driving this hard left / socialist popularity.

Corbyn was able to somewhat motivate a youth vote and coalesce an anti-tory voter coalition of sorts, but not enough to get anywhere close to a majority, which shows he's still not got much broad appeal. There needs to be a new centrist movement to recapture the middle, imo. Could be the lib dems if they hadn't been destroyed, maybe a new party like France did.

Vox has a good little write up: 3 winners and 4 losers from the stunning UK election

+1 for Trump lying under oath and nailing his coffin for impeachment! I watched a bit of the Comey hearing and thought it was great.
08:55pm 10/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7652 posts
Yeah Corbyn sounds like he puts ideology first and common sense second, and May hasn't been much chop either.

Why can't we have "centrist" leader in modern politics?
09:57pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2075 posts

Centrist was the neoliberal experiment that has now come to an end.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/paul-keating-says-neoliberalism-is-at-a-dead-end-after-sally-mcmanus-speech-20170329-gv9cto.html

It has failed the working class and now action is required. Not more radical centrist bulls***.


10:06pm 10/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3275 posts
Corbyn is, above all else, authentic. I think that really resonates.

I'd agree neoliberalism has failed in many areas and caused a lot of our woes, however it also did a bunch of great things, you can't argue against the benefits of liberal markets and globalism, despite the solvable negatives we've since discovered.

Neoliberalism is not equal to centralism. When I say centralism I mean the middle ground, a reasonable, rational mix of centre-left and centre-right policies that appeal to, and can work for, the majority of people. That's in respect to the right v left political spectrum. It certainly doesn't have to contain overtly neoliberal policies, the policy can be anything per say. Democracy requires consensus and consensus requires compromise. You won't get that with an ever increasing ideological divide, ergo, we need more centralism.

If you fancy a good read of neoliberalim's death knell, I liked this article: Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
10:32pm 10/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7653 posts
Not more radical centrist bulls***.


oxymoron ++
10:12am 11/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3276 posts
This is what I'm talking about, France leading the way!

Emmanuel Macron’s party looks set to sweep into power

A second revolution is underway in France. On the back of the remarkable election in May of Mr Macron, who had never before run for election to any office, La République en Marche! (LRM), a movement he founded just 14 months ago, looks set to secure a parliamentary majority at the two-round legislative election, on June 11th and 18th (see chart).
The Macron parliamentary revolution is not only about upsetting the old party balance, which has dominated France for 60 years, in favour of a new radical centre. It is also changing the face of French politics. Fully 251 of the 525 candidates LRM is fielding, which it selected from among 19,000 online applicants, have never run for elected office before, according to Le Monde, a newspaper. Half are women; the average age is 47. Like Mr Bonnell, some are entrepreneurs. There are also many teachers, civil servants and doctors, 11 farmers, two firemen, a hairdresser, an ex-professional golfer, a theologian, a mathematician and a female fighter pilot. This astonishing democratic experiment is both refreshing, and a gamble.
12:46am 12/06/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4606 posts
there's going to be no far-centre movement taking Australian poltics by storm, even if there's some rich d******* like Clive Palmer to pay the significant cost of setting a new national party up
02:40am 12/06/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21274 posts
Heh, Trump's actually going to be stupid enough to lie under oath isn't he?


if it is just his word against the other guys, which is what it sounds like - then of course he will lie

the things Comey is claiming that Trump said sound EXACTLY like something an egotist like Trump would say
07:57am 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12799 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
Cant wait for the next one.

America is becoming Great Again.

Meanwhile Conservatism in Australia takes a step backwards with The Labor-Lite Liberal Party re-introducing Labors Great Big New Tax on Electricity.

http://wp.failure.at/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/facepalm_triple.jpg
12:11pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2577 posts
Corbyn is hardly a commie, although he's certainly hard left.


His director of strategy, seamus milne, is a stalinist and Thomas Piketty resigned as an economic advisor to him.

He has probably learned, as all communists have, to tart his language up. I wouldn't be surprise behind closed doors if he is an outright commie.

if sanders and corbyn represent the new left, the left is in serious trouble.

He made up some ground against a terrible campaign in an election that was called pretty cynically. But lets keep in mind that while the conservatives lost seats, they picked up 4% or so in national vote. Corbyn came no where near forming government.

And if you are looking for Corbyn to bail you out of brexit you don't know Corbyn. The dude is a life long brexiteer. Keep this list of feckless cowardice and incompetence in mind when ever you discuss him.
03:56pm 12/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38999 posts
So the "Trump is finished" story was yet another load of Bulls***.
What story exactly? the one made of straw that you just erected in that sentence or another one

aside from your paid Russian troll-esque propaganda, what signs are there that America is becoming great again? (genuine question because there is a lot of "Trump is the badz" noise in the worldwide news so it's easily possible I have missed some positive economic wins that are the direct result of his policies and I would be genuinely interested to see how he's going)

(edited to fix broken quote tags, what a noob)
05:44pm 12/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12800 posts
All the Liberals were tuning in to hear Comey sink Trump
and it didnt happen.
Comey delivered a great big Nothing Burger.
I have to say Comey appears to be incompetent, possibly a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

on to the Winning !
$ 100 billion a year not going to The UN Climate slush fund
The end of the War on Coal
The end of the ludicrous Clean Energy regulations
Billions of infrastructure funding from Saudis
Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis
Approving the Keystone pipeline

The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
Manufacturing Index at highest in 30 years
NATO welfare countries contributions to increase by 10 billion a year
Trump added 300 000 jobs in his first month.

He is the most Winning President ever just as he predicted.
The Media campaign against him is hilarious.
If he gets those Tax Cuts through America will move beyond Great.
a New World Order is forming and Australia is out chasing the Climate Unicorn.

The President also pointed out numerous times that the MSM (Main Stream Media) reports only on a made up Russia conspiracy story and ignores these accomplishments. These actions are making the majority of Americans aware of the tremendous bias in the media in the US and abroad. This too is another major Trump accomplishment. Winning, Winning, Winning!

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/04/draft-complete-list-of-president-trumps-accomplishments-in-his-first-100-days/

06:31pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18393 posts

Billions of dollars in Weapons contracts with Saudis


I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.
08:37pm 12/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2578 posts
I'm not so sure that should be counted as a win.


+1
08:41pm 12/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3278 posts
Yeah I agree with you re: Corbyn Pete.

None of those things really sound like wins to me.
09:55pm 12/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25880 posts
Anyone see the video of the cabinet meeting where Trump spoke a bit about how great he was and then kept the camera in there as they went around the table recording 'praise' from the people sitting there? Truly bizarre stuff. Not really sure whether he's surrounded by mindless sycophants or whether they were under orders.

07:06pm 13/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39006 posts
do people not remember where the phrase "winning" came from? why would people use it in a non-ironic sense?

also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance about arming countries in the Middle East they are massively ideologically opposed to and constantly one bad intel report away from invading. Last I checked that group was still mad at the thought of having to go up against their own planes from Top Gun when they invaded Iran!
The Stock Market surge - why would it surge if Trump is bad for America ?
you picked the wrong weekend to brag about how great the US markets are going, but yeh the stock market is indeed going up! like it has been since 2008.
07:15pm 13/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12801 posts
Bolt claims there is an emergency meeting of the Liberal Party on right now.
has been going for 3 hours.
I think the Finkle Report could be the end of Trunbull.

that video lol I was gonna post it.
Trump trolls the Media Part 23
What a genius.



07:41pm 13/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7655 posts
This country is stuffed!

Boony for PM



10:25pm 13/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13702 posts
It's a pretty sad indictment of the poverty of your own intellect when you think buffoonery that is truly akin to behaviour you'd expect from a reality TV show, is excused as 'trolling' - and in the next breath, even praised as 'genius'. I wonder if the bar for alleging genius has ever been lower
02:21am 14/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12802 posts
Well, it was above Hillary Clinton.
02:32am 14/06/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13703 posts
Hillary Clinton wasn't a great candidate, but still... no

Hillary Clinton would at least have not debased the office beyond the usual realm of political perfidy. Donald Trump's redeeming qualities are appreciable or even perceivable largely only by people who tend to hold positions not grounded in reason. See most of the list you posted earlier for a resounding example.
02:50am 14/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40621 posts
05:25am 14/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3279 posts
Relax guys, Rodman's got this.
06:56am 14/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25882 posts
also I'd be interested in hearing how the average Trump-loving conservative resolves their cognitive dissonance
The same way it is always resolved - selective ignorance.
05:34pm 14/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7656 posts
I'm really getting sick of all the extremism on both sides
08:01pm 14/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2367 posts
US President Donald Trump is being investigated by special counsel Robert Mueller for possible obstruction of justice, the Washington Post has reported.
Aww poor Faceman his god is heading for impeachment
10:21am 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12803 posts
can i get a side order of Freedom Fries with that new Nothing Burger HJ ?

Crazy Lefty Socialist Sanders Supporter tries to murder Republicans.
What do you expect with Celebrities doing decapitations, knifings of Trump in plays, the frenzy in the Media ?

Trump is the President.
Make America Great Again or get outta the way.
12:33pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25883 posts
The day Trump is impeached and removed from office will almost be as sweet as when the Blues win the Origin 3-0 this year.
04:53pm 15/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2579 posts
The odds of trump being impeached by a republican house are almost nothing.
07:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25884 posts
Luckily the odds of the Blues winning 3-0 are much higher.
07:55pm 15/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
778 posts
I don't personally like that we are heading further socialist like some of northern Europe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCT5JZpW0AApFa3.jpg

The Greens and other Communists are Trump Triggered, and can't get past what a person says and how his hair looks. The disgruntled millennials who can't find a house to buy because we live in an expensive country lapping up the Greens and other Communists propaganda is folly. Joining the Trump Hate ban wagon... it has hardly anything to do with us. They should support the person they voted in. They all cheat. Did people really want Hillary? Wake up. Bernie was never going to make it, just like the leader of the Greens, and Pauline will never be PM. That's it millennials, keep encouraging people to flood in for the welfare. We/you need more welfare... and at the same time blame government for low low-end wages, and lack of housing. Do you really think Obama is any more genuine than Trump because Obama comes across so calm and PC? He's a politician, they are all full of s***.

The prices on housing going through the roof is a good thing. It's when the houses are worth hardly anything... like the economic failure that is USA... that we are in trouble.

If this place is so crap, catch a plane and move to another country. I like it here, and I like seeing some 'right' representation to combat policy based on 'feels'.
09:23pm 15/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25885 posts
Cool parody post bro but do you mind linking to where you got it from?

edit: I found this funny

https://image.ibb.co/hBbFA5/DCW2_Epy_Uw_AEl5di.jpg
free image hosting websites
09:29pm 15/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12804 posts
11:14pm 15/06/17 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2368 posts
I'm looking forward to the "Communications Over Various Feeds Electronically For Engagement" Act
06:34pm 16/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
39010 posts
If you are interested in more detail about the ongoing legal s****how in the US at the moment I found this 100-post Twitter thing really interesting. There was a followup today about some of the predictions in it coming true.
08:50pm 16/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2580 posts
got to 18 and stopped reading. Could use some accurate detail.

He claims the Steele dossier has been "partly confirmed" and it alleges trump committed treason. Well f*** that is damning, just for context It also alleges trump hired prostitutes to piss on a bed Michelle Obama slept on.

About the only confirmed in that document is some jackass private eye called steele wrote it.
09:44pm 16/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
779 posts
http://www.haanhealth.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/psychologist1.jpg

"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.
01:32am 17/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5378 posts
"Triggered By Trump" is a contagious condition that is contracted without direct contact. Patients with a dependence on government funding may present with acute symptoms. Mostly psychosomatic. Administer sedative, remove sim card from patients iphone, and show patient map of world. Explain how Mr Trump is not coming to get them. Suggest they leave light on in their bedroom at night if they get scared.


Cute. Could be accurate if you thought Trump was a disaster just based on his personality, but all you need to do is look at policy, and his policies affect all of us. Climate change isn't this little issue that will go away.
Unless you're the kind of person that loves shifting your problems under a rug.

As usual Chomsky is right, the conversation has been very well magnified to the us vs them mentality. Policy is just not important enough to discuss, and if you do dare, it ends up being, what about Obama or Hilary, or how precious liberals are. How boring.
01:46am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
780 posts
I'm very familiar with his policies:

https://www.politiplatform.com/trump

his policies affect all of us


Go on enlighten me. There are numbers, so it's really easy to list the ones that
affect all of us


I can see 146. Tell me about
all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

Do not despair. Even if you identify symptoms of having Trumphobia, it's not all that bad. It could be worse, you could be one of the many who vote for the Australian Greens without reading their policies from the source, but because they seem so much more honest and'nice'.

https://greens.org.au/policies/social-justice

A more equitable distribution of resources should eliminate poverty.


Currently 30% of our income tax goes to Welfare. Clearly that is not enough for the Greens.

Immigration must be non-discriminatory on the grounds of nationality, ethnicity, religion, language, gender, disability, sexuality, age or socioeconomic background.


Insanity, right there.

The development of networks, materials and programs that increase community understanding of the causes and benefits of migration.


There are benefits of migration, however these are diluted when including socioeconomic background in Policy. Tell me the economic benefit. It's pure 'feels' with additional cost.
10:38am 17/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12806 posts
Nmag first of all he doesnt believe in God, oops I mean Climate Change.
and then he doesnt believe in Russians Change
and he doesnt believe in Transgender Sex Change (reversed bathroom law)
and he supports Israels security concerns
and hes Rich, very Rich.

and worst of all... he doesnt listen to The UN

Trump refuses to believe in Left Wing sacred cows
Its almost like hes a Conservative.

and Hillary got more votes.

and hes Hitler.

10:52am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
781 posts
Nah we have moved past 'perception' and are basing comments on his policies. Go ahead, list some of the 146 that drive your Trumphobia.
10:58am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25886 posts
Just out of curiosity, why do you think it isn't worth commenting about something if it doesn't affect you?

The USA is without a doubt the most powerful and influential nation in the world. Trump's behaviour at the very best is highly questionable and the whole Russia thing could turn out to be one of the biggest and most damaging political scandals of all time. Only a fool or a hardcore apologist would say that his actions won't have global effects. You say go read a map, I'd suggest you go read a history book.

But one has already been mentioned in any case. It's a thing that doesn't just affect everybody but will affect everybody body till the end of time.
11:04am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
782 posts

I think it's great to comment on it, however we are saturated in news about his hair and tweets and how he shakes hands etc. It enrages people who really have little idea about his Policies or read transcripts of speeches, but instead read a clickbait hate heading and continue to spiral into this Trumphobia, while there are things much closer to home to deal with. Trump and his antics are a distraction from more important things going on right here... and too much of it is about feels.

His hair is no more than left wing circle jerking content. It cements the left, and further conditions people to ignore policy, or what actually happens, and increase the feel factor. No room for feels in business, unless you work in marketing or HR.

We need to be objective about where our news comes from and how it is manipulated. Here is and example, ABC News website has being showing snippets of this on going saga: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-11/china-communist-party-seeks-news-influence-australia-deals/8607754 When you read ABC news, look where they place articles. ABC took the London fire, broke it into about 4 articles that pushed this important article down their news stream. Each time content is written about this subject, it's pretty much shoved down, down, down the news feed. This is no accident. The push by communist China in this country is a concern, however ABC is a government institution housing employees, and loved by people who are voting for communism with their Green votes.

When you read ABC News, or TheGuardian, have a good look at the articles they are promoting with top billing, and where they place the articles that demonstrate clear evidence that not discriminating on socioeconomic grounds comes with consequences. Have a good look at the other "Opinion" articles some of the witter produce. Look for facts in these articles. Many of the writters, and the promoters of these articles are far more "divisive" than trump and his antics, or his actual policies.


11:20am 17/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25887 posts
Well I agree about the hair and handshakes. They're of little importance but they're fun to laugh about. Kind of funny that an apparent master of the deal can't even execute a proper handshake don't you agree? I reckon his tweets are important for reasons I've already mentioned. Not so much amusing mistakes like covfefe, more the way he is trying to neutralise the media by claiming it's all fake news and conditioning his followers to consider himself the only reliable source of information, using it to intimidate witnesses and so forth.
11:35am 17/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
783 posts
There's that word again. "All".

We can't have intelligent conversations when we include absolutes, that are exaggerations. They might feel good when writing them, but they are generally false. In a proper competitive debate, teams lose points after getting teared apart for throwing around "all" incorrectly.

A great deal of news is 'fake'. I've written media releases for things before, and it can be the most simple subject without any controversy. You give it to a journalist, they will twist the article to introduce controversy, to engage with people's 'feels", it sells advertising space and drives the 'discussion', but it's often rubbish. It's very common, and it's lame. Once you see the article in the paper, you wonder about the integrity of many Journalists. After doing this many times you start to realise there is a strong pattern.

We have a great deal of stupid people in our world, many of them don't read details or consider where the source of the news is coming from. They read click bait headings and throw a comment down. You see it often on FB. Then replies under the comment (which has 100 likes) pointing factually, that the article content is contrary to what the 100 like comment states. The 100 like comment reflects the clickbait heading. This is very common. It's easy to underestimate how many stupid people there are. If you want more stupid people, support the Greens policy regarding "or socioeconomic background" on migration.

Remember all the hype about FPS driving people to be violent. Who believes that playing FPS is a major multiple contributing factor. Lets not even get into chicken and the egg type cause/symptom topic.

In the 1970's and early 1980's we had news articles about how playing Dungeons and Dragons can kill you.
11:59am 17/06/17 Permalink