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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38594 posts
One of the few (only?) economists who writes stuff I understand wrote this interesting summary of Steve Bannon (Trump appointee)
07:59pm 21/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38595 posts
Can we not agree there are issues with some who identify with this faith? I believe in stronger screening for everyone including myself as a New Zealander.
This is Australia, are Australian people not allowed to protect their identity and way of life for their kids and their kids after that.
Patterns are in everything, why can we not observe patterns and use those observations to better predict outcomes if it happens to involve the word muslim?
Everyone else we can(which i believe should be the case) but Muslims are untouchable.
I don't think anyone is arguing that (I am not). I actually think we already have those screening processes in place (even PornoPete acknowledged above that he thinks most ISIS types will be caught by our current immigration controls).

Most of this discussion stems from the fact that we have s***** processes for dealing with people who enter the country illegally by boat or by plane. They end up in crappy mandatory detention facilities which seem to be really terrible places and horrible things happen.

I, and I think most Australians (except for the real a******* who basically think those people can go f*** themselves), would prefer if we dealt with these people as if they were actual humans and not sub-human trash.

We can have strong borders (we already do, really) but still treat people that come here a little better than we do. I am not necessarily opposed to mandatory detention or stronger filtering on source countries, but it needs to be done quickly and humanely and for reasons that are consistent and manageable.
08:06pm 21/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25563 posts
I have to say, Vash and fpot, are you not becoming somewhat like the caricatures of extreme opinion you so despise? I'd ease up a bit and try to have some more reasoned debate. Democracy requires consensus, consensus requires compromise, and compromise requires discussion with common ground init.
Democracy also requires its participants to show some responsibility when voting. To employ some critical thinking skills in an effort to decide what will be best for the country and themselves when casting their vote.

For someone to vote for Trump, Abbott or Hanson shows a flagrant disregard for those responsibilities. If you're willing to live up to those responsibilities and you're being truly honest with yourselves you'd never vote for those three people and the parties they lead. That's why I can't help but chuckle when people say the democrats are disrespecting democracy by rioting/protesting.

Now I feel I am saying this a lot lately but... I did used to post differently. I would see someone post something I know to be untrue, I would then go and find solid evidence indicating so and I'd post it for them. I guess I was a bit naive. I thought to myself 'well surely after seeing this fairly convincing evidence they will change their mind because who actually wants to be wrong? Who wants to be misinformed and fall for really obvious ploys by those in charge?'. Seems plenty of people do. Why though?

The conclusion I came to was because they are racist. But there seems to be a fair bit of opposition to that so perhaps it is something more benign. Susceptible to fear mongering tactics, accepting of easy answers with no substance, eagerness to blame various social problems on something else rather than greed. Either way, those are not good traits to possess. If you're not willing to even try to overcome them then you're a worthless piece of s*** imo.

And so years pass by and I can only really be bothered being a bit of a prick about things to be honest. The other option of course is not to post but where's the fun in that?

That's what you meant when you said caricature of extreme opinions right? That I can be a d*** about things? Because I honestly don't think any of my opinions are even close to extreme.
08:14pm 21/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12505 posts
Universal Healthcare is not Free Healthcare.
Taxpayers are picking up the tab.
Obamacare was unfunded Unfunded Left Wing spending
when does that ever happen ? SAID NOBODY EVER

Is Society healthier today than it was 20 years ago ?
I would suggest Universal Healthcare encourages people to not care about their Health because if they get sick someone else will pay for it.

What is the reward for taking pride in your appearance ?
Tax increases.
Medicare Levy Surcharge
Then you get robbed blind by Private Cover.

Im not opposed to Universal Healthcare but personal responsibility has to be part of the system. It has to be affordable or one day it wont be there.
08:16pm 21/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21081 posts
A few here seem to "not opposed to health care" yet seemed to be against america introducing it

The money comes from taxes, that is how it is done.
08:25pm 21/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38596 posts
And so years pass by and I can only really be bothered being a bit of a prick about things to be honest. The other option of course is not to post but where's the fun in that?
We need new techniques to communicate evidence-based information to people that have pre-defined biases against what it shows. I have no idea how to do this, but I know how you feel - it is wearying to the extreme.
Is Society healthier today than it was 20 years ago ?
I would suggest Universal Healthcare encourages people to not care about their Health because if they get sick someone else will pay for it.
This is why America, the western country with the most expensive healthcare per capita & (until very recently) no real availability of insurance for most of the population, is renowned for their fit, athletic and health populace that goes out of their way to look after themselves
Is Society healthier today than it was 20 years ago ?
well. yes. yes it is. Life expectancy is longer, generally (except in the US, right?)
08:37pm 21/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3139 posts
Fair enough fpot, maybe I am a touch naive in that regard. Yeah by caricature I mean being a d***. I see what you're saying though, but I do think there a lot of people who voted for Trump who aren't racist or sexist, and the problem of the militant left plying that brush to everyone and shouting everyone down with claims of racism/sexism is a real one. I mention this, being a left-leaning chap, because I don't believe it's helping the cause and has in-fact played a part in the hard right resurgence we're seeing now. Moreover, the way forward isn't further divide and increased hatred, it's somehow finding a centralist path forward together. What trog said ^^

That's a fascinating article on Bannon, trog. It sounds like Bannon has some Christianish delusions though, I'm not sure the Catholic Church really successfully defended Europe from Islam through the middle ages, it was more because Islam got decimated by Genghis Khan coming from the other side. It's arguable if that hadn't happened then Islam would have conquered Europe too!
09:02pm 21/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4911 posts

Im not opposed to Universal Healthcare but personal responsibility has to be part of the system. It has to be affordable or one day it wont be there.


Yeah well, its affordable because everyone is in on it.
Healthcare should not be for profit.
Only now are people realising it once they break free from right wing thinking.
09:41pm 21/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12507 posts
Just as many unhealthy people in America as here.
We have a better Health System thats delivering similar outcomes.
That has to change.

How about Britain ? they are too fat too.
The British NHS is buckling too under the weight of Lifestyle Illnesses.

Dont worry though, you'll all be looked after.
We will just cut a few more slices off the Magic Pudding to pay for it all.
People werent even prepared to pay $5 to see a GP

One day they will be paying a lot more than that.

keeping people alive for longer ?
That is also something that is eventually going to need to be addressed.

10:06pm 21/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23441 posts


Yeah well, its affordable because everyone is in on it.
Healthcare should not be for profit.
Only now are people realising it once they break free from right wing thinking.


Healthcare is very much for profit. Pharmaceutical companies use the Australian governmemnt as a piggy bank, private hospitals, doctors, allied health, specialists, and pharmacies all make outrageous fortunes off the taxpayer and enjoy markets which are highly regulated with high barriers to entry. Healthcare labour workforce is highly unionised and commands higher than market pay rises due to restrictive work practices.

You show just how foolish you are by making that naive statement. Healthcare is "affordable" to low income people because as per usual high income earners are paying large amounts of their income in tax to underwrite a grossly inefficient system, all the while vested interests wrote their own cheques.
10:17pm 21/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38597 posts
Just as many unhealthy people in America as here.
We have a better Health System thats delivering similar outcomes.
That has to change.
How do you want it to change? Are you saying you want it to become more like America where it's a) more expensive b) harder to get covered c) more confusing and d) ultimately results in a lower life expectancy?

I am interesting in how you & infi would like to see healthcare change. I agree there is a lot of waste in the current system (several of my immediate family are in healthcare and also agree with this). Somewhat ironically much of the waste in healthcare seems to be in failed IT programmes (from what my dad says everything done by Qld Health is a total trainwreck).

edit: I agree healthcare needs to have profit in there somewhere, especially if the govt is paying for it - providers should be competing actively to provide services at better prices. I think it's tough though as a big part of healthcare is about location.
10:37pm 21/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23442 posts
everytime you spend someone else's money there is waste. people spend there own money more wisely. medicare should be means tested and available only for the poorest people. health insurance pricing should be deregulated and the medicare surcharge removed. (with higher participation inn health insurance there would be more competition and no need for a govt rebate).

i would also tender out all public health operations on a dutch auction of approved suppliers.
10:47pm 21/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4550 posts
why would deregulated (i.e. higher) insurance premiums lead to more participation?

I think we're pretty settled on a society where I don't have to look at the bank balance before deciding to go to the hospital or not
10:51pm 21/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4912 posts
So they should.
If you compared the price that Americans pay for pharmaceuticals, with Australians, you'd be shocked.
Capitalism gone mad.
10:52pm 21/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38598 posts
everytime you spend someone else's money there is waste. people spend there own money more wisely. medicare should be means tested and available only for the poorest people. health insurance pricing should be deregulated and the medicare surcharge removed. (with higher participation inn health insurance there would be more competition and no need for a govt rebate).
The very obviously unsaid implication here is that people above a certain income line should be paying a compulsory health insurance figure (if they want health insurance). Is that what you are advocating?
10:53pm 21/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23443 posts
why would deregulated (i.e. higher) insurance premiums lead to more participation?

I think we're pretty settled on a society where I don't have to look at the bank balance before deciding to go to the hospital or not


home and car insurance prices are not regulated....

The very obviously unsaid implication here is that people above a certain poverty line should be paying a compulsory health insurance figure (if they want health insurance). Is that what you are advocating?


they may wish to pay cash for their operations, that's their choice. it may be that every operation over the means tested limit carries an excess. there needs to be a price signal in healthcare.
10:54pm 21/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38599 posts
they may wish to pay cash for their operations, that's their choice. it may be that every operation over the means tested limit carries an excess. there needs to be a price signal in healthcare.
Outside of the US, do you know any other nations that have implemented such a system successfully (and I guess by "successful" I mean with generally first world quality healthcare outcomes, respectable longevity figures, low price per capita?
11:22pm 21/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3141 posts
02:41am 22/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21082 posts
it is clear infi and faceman have never needed the public health system on a serious level

i see myself going broke and probably needing a bank loan under infi's scheme just to stay alive the last few years because i am sure i would have means tested above the line to get public health care admittedly i didn't have private health when i got sick but even with insurance that s*** is RIDICULOUSLY expensive still
09:07am 22/11/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9336 posts
Im not opposed to Universal Healthcare but personal responsibility has to be part of the system. It has to be affordable or one day it wont be there.

I don't think you understand the 'responsibility' part of healthcare.

Healthcare is there to ensure people can get better after a drunk driver plows through a red light when they're just driving normally and legally. It's there for when your employer tells you that equipment has been checked and is okay to use, and you end up on the floor. It's there for when someones boss insists they have to be at work, so they get on the crowded train carrying that illness that you react to in a far worse way than they do. It's there for when your four-year-old child slips in the playground fracturing their arm, or neck. It's there because you discover that your parents were the carrier for a gene they didn't even know anything about, and only begins to affect you as an adult in a way that stops you being able to even walk or remember simple tasks without medication that no pharmeceutical company can be bothered researching because it only affects one in 600,000 people and isn't profitable.

The 'personal responsibility' line is a total bulls*** way of simply saying "why should I have to pay for someone else getting sick?" - which even for most of these people throwing it around is fine - until they're struck with something they can't afford to pay for treatment of.

People get sick. They have accidents, they do stupid s***. This should just be factored in to life and we should put money aside to cover this fact. We shouldn't be getting bogged down in "well you shouldn't have been doing that in the first place" - that's just you being a selfish a******.
10:04am 22/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23444 posts
it is clear infi and faceman have never needed the public health system on a serious level


i have paid for private healh insurance since I left the nest. means testing medicare would increase volume and competition in private health activity.

Outside of the US, do you know any other nations that have implemented such a system successfully (and I guess by "successful" I mean with generally first world quality healthcare outcomes, respectable longevity figures, low price per capita?


no, but it doesn't mean it can't work. market driven systems with a safety net reduce govt intervention. i am looking for a system which provides even better care outcomes and is even better value for the taxpayer than the current public health system.

The very obviously unsaid implication here is that people above a certain income line should be paying a compulsory health insurance figure (if they want health insurance).


that is the mean testing component, I guess.
10:15am 22/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12508 posts
I dont think INFI and I have blamed sick people.
The problem is in the way Universal Healthcare is provided.
Its not about the people who genuinely need it.
Its about those who treat it as an all you can eat Buffet.

For instance just some of the Medicare abusers:
Motorbike riders
Food abusers
Drug abusers
Smokers

Taxpayers are picking up the bill for self inflicted Medical issues.
Every time one of these people get served someone like paveway has to wait a bit longer.

You buy a Motorbike - you lose your Medicare coverage.
You refuse to lose weight - you lose your Medicare coverage
Some kind of self responsibility has to become part of Medicare.
You want the freedom to eat/drink yourself to death ?
Medical care associated with your Lifestyle will not be funded by Taxpayers.

Means Testing should be done for everything that comes from Government.

Do you guys understand that everything has a cost.
If costs keep increasing eventually YOU will pay for all of the inefficiencies in the system, YOU are right now. Meanwhile Medical Companies that provide services to the government are making monstrous profits.
Health Insurance Companies are making huge profits.

Some kind of competition would improve Medicare for everyone.
Its not FREE

01:03pm 22/11/16 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1827 posts
I dont think INFI and I have blamed sick people.
The problem is in the way Universal Healthcare is provided.
Its not about the people who genuinely need it.
Its about those who treat it as an all you can eat Buffet.

For instance just some of the Medicare abusers:
Motorbike riders
Food abusers
Drug abusers
Smokers


If you have a shorter life expectancy, wouldn't that LOWER your usage of healthcare?

I mean, if you die at 40, that's another 40-60 years you won't be sucking pension or being old and stuff.

So technically, others being a smoker or a motorbike rider is actually saving you money.
01:11pm 22/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23446 posts
i don't support removing support for anyone from the health system but i think if they can pay for it they should.

i like this quote from the Mises Institute

Since the early 1900s, medical special interests have been lobbying politicians to reduce competition. By the 1980s, the U.S. was restricting the supply of physicians, hospitals, insurance and pharmaceuticals, while subsidizing demand. Since then, the U.S. has been trying to control high costs by moving toward something perhaps best described by the House Budget Committee: “In too many areas of the economy - especially energy, housing, finance, and health care – free enterprise has given way to government control in “partnership” with a few large or politically well-connected companies”
01:14pm 22/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21083 posts
facey drawing that line is no where near as easy as you make it sound

and there will always be people that don't fit the Yes / No categories for a million different reasons

private health insurance companies keep making huge profits because they are c****, infi's ideal model of health care would require a HUGE shake up of private health insurance system and not just the cost of premiums each year but what they cover and all the extra little bulls*** they DON'T cover when you go through the private system.
01:19pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4913 posts
lol faceman. Such authoritarian policy.
Competition doesn't work when it comes to healthcare. They charge you a fee to hold your f*****g baby in the states for christs sake.
Look at how much they charge for medication in a market like the states, with so much competition.
01:47pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9337 posts
Showing yourself as a complete idiot now. What percentage of motorbike accidents are the riders fault?

The problem here is driver education and attitudes, not people riding motorbikes. You want to fix the problem with road trauma involving motorbikes? Then increase road infringements and penalties, and driver education. The number one killer on our roads is impatience.
01:56pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4551 posts
the idea of higher Medicare contributions from smokers and chronic overeaters isn't entirely ridiculous, but I wonder how you implement a system that is essentially based upon a voluntary yes/no question without widespread fraud
02:01pm 22/11/16 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1828 posts
the idea of higher Medicare contributions from smokers and chronic overeaters isn't entirely ridiculous, but I wonder how you implement a system that is essentially based upon a voluntary yes/no question without widespread fraud


I could see it possibly working, overeating and smoking tend to have physical markers that you can't easily get around.

Smokers will have stains and smells, over-eaters will likely be larger.

Don't bump the prices up UNLESS they make no effort to change it.

For ex
- A smoker is sick after his doctor has been telling him to quit for years. Charge him the higher rate, since he chose to ignore the doctors advice?

- A large woman (who is large because she eats and not because she has medical issues) who doesn't meet their weight targets could be charged more etc.

Make it about a motivation rather than a straight up punishment (even though it's still a punishment, but a deserved one at that point)

Personally, I still think my previous point makes sense, so I don't think it needs to be changed like that tbh.
02:09pm 22/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21084 posts
the idea of higher Medicare contributions from smokers and chronic overeaters isn't entirely ridiculous


i actually agree with the smoking one because smoking is so ridiculously stupid it isn't funny.

but the flip side is this thinking leads to a slippery slope

Showing yourself as a complete idiot now. What percentage of motorbike accidents are the riders fault?

The problem here is driver education and attitudes, not people riding motorbikes. You want to fix the problem with road trauma involving motorbikes? Then increase road infringements and penalties, and driver education. The number one killer on our roads is impatience.


it doesn't matter if it is the fairy god mothers fault, fact is your risk of dying or getting mangled riding a bike is a lot bigger.
02:13pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4914 posts
The cost on society for addictions & unhealthy habits is large, even discounting the medicare part.
Better off reducing use of harmful drugs, and unhealthy eating habits with education, and regulation on food.
Which is what we're doing, but there's still more to do. I like the sugar tax idea. Decriminalization of drugs worked in Portugal.

Make wearing motorcycle gear mandatory, and increase awareness to drivers. Charging people based on their individual actions is so dumb only a conservative could come up with it.
02:18pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3142 posts
Isn't smoking already incorporated? My dad wasn't able to get surgery on his knee's done until he quit smoking, which he did.
05:39pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1952 posts


it doesn't matter if it is the fairy god mothers fault, fact is your risk of dying or getting mangled riding a bike is a lot bigger.


What about all the pollution cars cause and the associated cost of the healthcare system? That's causing much more deaths than bikes are.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydneysiders-choking-on-the-air-they-breathe-20140801-zzf7p.html

Sydney's air kills more people than traffic accidents. Last year the NSW road toll was 339.

07:24pm 22/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25564 posts
So how about that Dutton guy? I'd quote him but I don't want to reproduce racism so hopefully you all know what I am talking about.
09:55pm 22/11/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40370 posts
i blame pave for getting sick through no fault of his own
09:58pm 22/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38601 posts
i don't support removing support for anyone from the health system but i think if they can pay for it they should.
FWIW, I pay for my health care in Australia. I don't know how to use Medicare to get rebates and my health care needs have, fortunately, been infrequent enough that it's never bugged me to pay for it myself. (Outside of a few things my private cover has taken care of.)
i actually agree with the smoking one because smoking is so ridiculously stupid it isn't funny.
cigarette taxes are huge ; I don't know if it pays for itself but I'm happy to tax those things and have the money go into health care. I also think a tax on sugary stuff is probably not a terrible thing considering how much new info has shown the health risks of it
11:56pm 22/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2141 posts
Glad to see you're thinking about what you post fpot. Good for you.
12:02am 23/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3143 posts
The NYT is live tweeting their interview with Trump, it's pretty great: https://twitter.com/maggieNYT
05:33am 23/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21086 posts
cigarette taxes are huge ; I don't know if it pays for itself but I'm happy to tax those things and have the money go into health care.


that is true, just keep increasing that tax as they will keep paying it
09:02am 23/11/16 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2341 posts
cigarette taxes are huge ; I don't know if it pays for itself but I'm happy to tax those things and have the money go into health care. I also think a tax on sugary stuff is probably not a terrible thing considering how much new info has shown the health risks of it
that is true, just keep increasing that tax as they will keep paying it


In China the cost of a pack of Cigarettes (25's) is $2.30, in Australia it's $28.90, brand dependant. That's $10519 per year at one pack per day.
10:30am 23/11/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6161 posts
Trog:
Most of this discussion stems from the fact that we have s***** processes for dealing with people who enter the country illegally by boat or by plane. They end up in crappy mandatory detention facilities which seem to be really terrible places and horrible things happen.
I, and I think most Australians (except for the real a******* who basically think those people can go f*** themselves), would prefer if we dealt with these people as if they were actual humans and not sub-human trash.
We can have strong borders (we already do, really) but still treat people that come here a little better than we do. I am not necessarily opposed to mandatory detention or stronger filtering on source countries, but it needs to be done quickly and humanely and for reasons that are consistent and manageable.


Ok great, I believe we are on the same page and I believe most people are in this respect, I was taken off gaurd with Vash's post declaring everyone leaning Trumps way supports horrible environments and treatment of our fellow man and woman. Far from it, it angers me that people are living in fear and left with no choice but to flee their homes, but i don't think letting them straight in is a financially viable long term plan, and doing so doesn't help the majority still in the situation these fleed from.

I would prefer to send them back ASAP after looking into why they are fleeing their home in the first place and helping them help themselves perhaps by providing short term security with long term plan for defensive training(perhaps weapons), farm supplies, to help them secure their own village. Ultimately help them stand on their own two feet and regaining their self respect from doing so. Obviously this isn't as easy as it sounds regarding working with local governing/military bodies but those in the neccessary positions need to research and plan to do so. Anything else i believe is hugely inefficient and only benefits those brave and lucky enough to attempt the boat journey and what appears on the other side. I think giving people a very generous ongoing package(more so than vets who fought for our way of life) hurts the hosts financial situation and encourages more to do so without fixing the cause of the issue in the first place.

I'm sure this reflects the thoughts of most but felt I needed to refute the assumption that those leaning Trumps way want people tortured and pay to keep them for no ultimate benefit of anyone.
It will cost less in the long run in my opinion to help those truely in need while helping to counter any possible false claims of illegal immigration worthy hardship.

I believe this was the very nature of being for the UN?
12:10pm 23/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4915 posts

http://deepbrendog.blogspot.com.au/2016/11/its-economics-stupid.html

a good blog piece on why everything this government is doing is going to stifle economic growth.
12:21pm 23/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23448 posts
http://deepbrendog.blogspot.com.au/2016/11/its-economics-stupid.html

a good blog piece on why everything this government is doing is going to stifle economic growth.


a garbage post filled with keynesian helicopter-money nonsense. the taxpayer is entitled to thrifty value-for-money spending decisions. i honestly wonder at people who think throwing money onto the street is sensible economics. building infrastructure, education and productivity is how to grow an economy.
01:50pm 23/11/16 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1829 posts


a garbage post filled with keynesian helicopter-money nonsense. the taxpayer is entitled to thrifty value-for-money spending decisions. i honestly wonder at people who think throwing money onto the street is sensible economics. building infrastructure, education and productivity is how to grow an economy.


I agree, feel free to ask the Libs why they're wasting so much money on an inferior NBN...
01:55pm 23/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25565 posts
a garbage post filled with keynesian helicopter-money nonsense. the taxpayer is entitled to thrifty value-for-money spending decisions. i honestly wonder at people who think throwing money onto the street is sensible economics. building infrastructure, education and productivity is how to grow an economy.
Another Reason You Are Dumb is whenever someone posts something rather substantial that runs against your pre-existing world view is that all you can ever manage is a one line rebuttal. If it is nonsense as you say surely you're able to use your great intellect to pick it apart really easily?
02:01pm 23/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25566 posts
I would prefer to send them back ASAP after looking into why they are fleeing their home in the first place and helping them help themselves perhaps by providing short term security with long term plan for defensive training(perhaps weapons), farm supplies, to help them secure their own village. Ultimately help them stand on their own two feet and regaining their self respect from doing so. Obviously this isn't as easy as it sounds regarding working with local governing/military bodies but those in the neccessary positions need to research and plan to do so. Anything else i believe is hugely inefficient and only benefits those brave and lucky enough to attempt the boat journey and what appears on the other side. I think giving people a very generous ongoing package(more so than vets who fought for our way of life) hurts the hosts financial situation and encourages more to do so without fixing the cause of the issue in the first place.
So you think it is more efficient to arm, train and feed a large group of people in a hostile enemy controlled environment than it is to resettle them here?

You do realise not all asylum seekers come from little mud hut villages right? Many come from metropolitan centres. They're fleeing from corrupt regimes that have armies consisting of trained armed soldiers, tanks, aircraft even. It would be a massive cost and a massive time investment that may even be an impossibility.

Have you even considered the possibility that maybe these people don't want to 'secure their own village'? That they just want to be somewhere peaceful where they can live normal lives?

I'm starting to think you might be a bit dumb.
02:18pm 23/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23449 posts
Another Reason You Are Dumb is whenever someone posts something rather substantial that runs against your pre-existing world view is that all you can ever manage is a one line rebuttal. If it is nonsense as you say surely you're able to use your great intellect to pick it apart really easily?


hey, it's helicopter money, also known as the magic pudding - a fatally flawed undergraduate level economic theory (his graphs looked pretty). would you do it with your money? no.
02:24pm 23/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4916 posts
So very flawed that it worked wonders in 2008.
And won wayne swan treasurer of the year.
02:58pm 23/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2142 posts
So very flawed that it worked wonders in 2008.


You mean during an emergency and so probably not a viable basis for general policy? You mean like that?

whenever someone posts something rather substantial that runs against your pre-existing world view


Yeah but its an obscure blog post by someone who doesn't offer credentials in their profile and there could be trouble in paradise:

Now imagine that I put an extra $1000 in Malcolm Turnbull's bank account. Malcolm Turnbull is one of our country's richest men. Does he spend any of it? How much of that $1000 does he save? My guess is that he will save more of that $1000 than you, perhaps keeping it in a Mossack Fonseca bank account for future investment in a speculative Russian mining venture.


Not sure that's "substantial" some much as childish and banal.
05:25pm 23/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4917 posts
You mean during an emergency and so probably not a viable basis for general policy? You mean like that?


An example of economic stimulus required during a GFC, which conservatives were against. It would have been a disaster if the LNP were in Government then. Considering that, conservative thinking on stimulus is about cutting spending & taxes on the rich, can you imagine what effect that would have had on the economy in the aftermath of the GFC?

Not sure that's "substantial" some much as childish and banal.


How's that childish & banal when it's pretty much on the money?
Provide more disposable income for the lower & middle class, they consume more, then business & the economy grows. You don't give tax cuts, or more money to people who are already at the top of the pyramid.
That is if you want an economy to grow, and aren't just looking after your wealthy mates.
06:39pm 23/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23450 posts
My primary criticisms of the article are twofold:

1. Increased money supply from government stimulus without a growth in population or productivity leads to inflation.

2. The article is a response to increasing government tax take, not improving the economy which requires reform such as taxation, industrial relations and trade reform. (Or try cutting expenditure...)

The more I re-read it the more amateurish it is. Increasing money supply/velocity is a basic and short-term economic trick which inevitably rips off the lowest earners whose wages suffer the most from inflation.

It's predictable Vash would latch onto first year economic Fabianism like this.
07:00pm 23/11/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6162 posts
hmm my previous post/s was unclear, my thoughts are not blanket rules I'd like set but rather describe the desired outcomes.
if the desired outcome is found to be unviable in each particular case then other options need to be pursued, one of which is settlement here.

Fpot, not sure why you take points so literal, do we not have desired outcomes and expectations that you work towards, which change and evolve depending on viability.
I think it is fairly obvious I am not an expert on relocating boat loads of people but surely that would be our ultimate goal first and foremost, then pursue alternate humane options as required.

Do refugees only matter if they are luckly enough to make it to our shores? Why simply reward those who make it here and ignore those who are unable to flee?
Personally your one mindedness here staggers me but note I respect others have their own opinions and the likelyhood of knowing information i may not, I find it interesting you believe you have the higher moral ground.

Yes i do believe helping people ensure they have a safe environment in their own lands will ultimately be cheaper for us and a better outcome for all than settling the growing numbers making the journey. In this world of drones and high tech warefare should we not act to help those who cannot help themselves? Do you believe none of them would love to stay in their own country with their family and friends, their lands, their home if they could?
I understand there is quite a number attempting the journey to most western countries across the world however this is a drop in the ocean compared to those who as yet remain.

Settling those who arrive and will then continue to arrive is such a inefficient way to deal with the real issues at hand, bringing financial strain on the host both short and long term with no bigger picture results.


The below ABC article discusses Germanys situation where they let in 1 million refugees most of which now are struggling to find a job as bussinesses who were vocally in favour are not hiring saying they don't have the required skills and don't speak the language. 1 million refugees, again a small drop in the ocean of those wanting a better life. How many millions could australia take in and don't forget support before ecconomic collapse? The world? not enough unfortunately.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-03/germany's-open-door-refugee-problems-12-months-on/7811116

I understand you want to help as I believe we all do but we should be smart about it and put together a plan that is sustainable for everybody.
07:14pm 23/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38602 posts
providing short term security with long term plan for defensive training(perhaps weapons)
Sending arms to the mid east - what could possibly go wrong!

edit:
Settling those who arrive and will then continue to arrive is such a inefficient way to deal with the real issues at hand, bringing financial strain on the host both short and long term with no bigger picture results.
It sounds like you are proposing another trillion dollar war in the Middle East. I agree it would be nice if we could waltz into Syria and make it a paradise but we tried that s*** in Afghanistan and Iraq with results that I will describe euphemistically as "mixed".

A quick Google tells me it cost between $10b and $15b for our military adventures in the Middle East. I would rather spend twice that on a humanitarian solution (i.e., housing, educating, integrating) than on a programme to export shrapnel and high explosive to the Middle East yet again. I'd rather take the people that think their s***** countries suck so badly they're prepared to risk life and limb to leave them in search for a better life.

But! I totally appreciate that we can't take everyone. I also appreciate we simply don't WANT to take just anyone. There needs to be some sort of controls on who is allowed in. Our existing Border Security guys seem to do a pretty good job of this.
07:39pm 23/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4918 posts

1. Increased money supply from government stimulus without a growth in population or productivity leads to inflation.


Considering inflation is lower than the RBA would like, clearly more stimulus is required along with more disposable income for people to buy stuff.


2. The article is a response to increasing government tax take, not improving the economy which requires reform such as taxation, industrial relations and trade reform. (Or try cutting expenditure...)


Yes, tax reform should be on the cards. We should be taxing more from mining, banks, and sugar taxes (to reduce obesity & put the money to medicare) and ensuring multinationals are paying tax instead of dodging it.

Considering these industries have alot of money to lobby government, it probably won't happen. In which case, get money out of politics & let's get a federal ICAC going.
The only parties worth voting for are ones that supports such a thing.
08:53pm 23/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23451 posts
Considering inflation is lower than the RBA would like, clearly more stimulus is required along with more disposable income for people to buy stuff.


People will spend their OWN money when they are ready to do so. It is not up to government to recklessly spend money on frivolous consumption which private persons would not otherwise do. That is called waste. It is so easy to spend other people's money. You're great at it Vash, but that's not nation-building - it's just a giveaway.
09:18pm 23/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38604 posts
They are trying to trigger more stimulus by constantly lowering interest rates. Which seems to me to have had one effect: create a massive pricing bubble in housing and (if what I'm seeing in the news is true) a huge oversupply of apartments as the market has attempted to respond to this ham-fisted finger on the scales.

I don't quite get "economics" but I agree with infi that stimulus seems like a bad idea because it f**** up the ability of the market to respond.
09:26pm 23/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4919 posts
Infi, you realise this system requires people to spend money on useless stuff, right? When people are not buying, the economy dies, recessions aren't far off.
People will buy things that the Government or Media convinces them to. As unfortunate as that is, that's Capitalism for you.

So if you want a strong economy, get people consuming. Lowering taxes to businesses is all well and good but is pointless without a large cashed up population.
09:58pm 23/11/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6163 posts
I agree, I was referring to small arms weaponry, even so sending weapons isn't the correct answer but rather an option, voiced to encourage further thought and consideration to the core issues as has been my primary goal in this thread. It is my hope and belief that given genuine thought by those holding positions of power and the surrounding advisors, a solution is acheivable.
To clarify I am opposed to sending our troops in to other nations, I would insist firstly productive discusions of reason with all allies and the UN towards this end then showing a firm united front to agressive governence . What is the UN for if nothing else? This is laughable, but it shouldn't be, if the corruption( or whatever it is that makes these bodies like the UN almost useless) is removed from our own governance first then we can move forward.

There is no one answer to suit all the locations refugees come from, the various lands are quite different and will require different solutions.
Again I stress we should strive to fix the core issues in these locations injoint efforts with the UN and allies, taking in refugees should not be the primary response and at no point should anybody be treated inhumanely.

I'm not sure exactly the best solution regarding enabling people to help themselves though wouldn't assume I would, given the complexities of the various national relationships we are not privy too though I'm hoping those that are privy will work towards this end.

i guess at the end of the day I'm happy to help people to help themselves but opposed to providing the end game on a silver platter with generous financial rewards.


Lowering taxes to bussinesses is about encouraging local production and labour. Less money leaving a country the stronger that country will be financially.
Trump looks like he might take it a bit further and tax bussinesses that produce off shore. Great for the US in my opinion and makes sense.


I'm quite happy this has turned into a rather good discussion even Vash and Fpot have calmed down a touch :P
12:51am 24/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4552 posts
I do feel strongly that we in advanced economies have a responsibility to help raise up the developing world rather than (or in addition to) simply moving them over here

it seems sometimes that the only thing we send is death from above ("what, they have bigger d****? bomb them!")

so can we stop picking sides in these internecine squabbles please and pouring more fuel on the fire
01:01am 24/11/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6164 posts
I agree Insom, which is why i feel evidence of the atrocities should be discussed with the governments of those lands and work together to solve them there.
If said government/military bodies are not willing to address the human rights issues then firm action from the UN and allies is the last resort but must be an option.
01:17pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38606 posts
like, say, human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia? or Pakistan? I would like to stop doing business with those places but I fear we make too much money out of it
07:38pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38607 posts
I mean I guess if we are concerned about human rights abuses though we should make sure we've got our own house in order with respect to mandatory detention too :)
07:46pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4920 posts
I do feel strongly that we in advanced economies have a responsibility to help raise up the developing world rather than (or in addition to) simply moving them over here

it seems sometimes that the only thing we send is death from above ("what, they have bigger d****? bomb them!")

so can we stop picking sides in these internecine squabbles please and pouring more fuel on the fire


That would be ideal, but when our system requires a vast amount of exploitable economies, Africa will remain in poverty for a long time, and they're trapped in a feedback loop of poverty due to western or asian ownership of their businesses, extracting wealth from those countries. This is another reason more regulation & socialist policy would help them drastically, ensuring their businesses remain owned by locals, money made from exports & local production provided to the people instead of foreigners looking to get more rich than they already are.
It's a pretty s*** situation when alot of people have to rely on charity to survive. Trump types are the ones who would buy business in poor countries to make more money, they wouldn't give a s***. "It's business"

And apparently it's being a SJW to care about the poor!
07:54pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4921 posts
Here's quite an accurate comment on reddit, when it comes to the Coalition trying to kill the public sector:

The usual Coalition pipeline:
-Appoint useless managers
-Accuse organisation of inefficiency due to useless managers
-Cut funds citing incompetency
-Have us pay for their mates to do the job instead
The NBN, Centrelink outsourcing to Job Search Agencies, the CSIRO...it is endless.
http://i.imgur.com/3G2GhSQ.jpg

Love ya chomsky
08:20pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23452 posts
LOL you think defunding caused a systemically dysfunctional public service...

National public expenditure has increased by two thirds since 2008.

Public policy is fundamentally about no care no responsibility. That's why it will never deliver superior outcomes.

SJWs don't care about the poor. They care about token minority groups, white guilt and reverse discrimination.
08:28pm 24/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12510 posts
Vash its not exploiting people to pay them what a product is worth.
If they want more money for that product then they have to compete with other people producing that product.

When you go to the evil Capitalist Shop do you buy the most expensive products with your money ?
you dont ?
please explain why you dont ?

I had this very discussion with a guy a few weeks back.
He was complaining that we dont pay Bangers enough money for the Clothes they make. I said to him how much were they making before Clothes started being manufactured there ?

People invested capital in Bangerland to produce products and created massive amounts of jobs. That is a huge win for that Country.

08:35pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4922 posts

Public policy is fundamentally about no care no responsibility. That's why it will never deliver superior outcomes.


When you have countless private entities providing shocking service & poor outcomes, but are still operating, that shows this logic is flawed.
Private can provide superior outcomes. So can public.

lack of funding sure is hurting Centrelink, CSIRO, NBN, ABC...
And considering spending is still increasing with these cuts, just where is the money going with the Coalition in government?

Norway is doing quite well with alot of welfare spending & with a strong public sector. Gee i wonder why their economy isnt tanking ;) This is why we should have nationalised the mines, imagine the wealth provided to the community instead of hoarded by a select few.
08:58pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4923 posts
Vash its not exploiting people to pay them what a product is worth.
If they want more money for that product then they have to compete with other people producing that product.

When you go to the evil Capitalist Shop do you buy the most expensive products with your money ?
you dont ?
please explain why you dont ?

I had this very discussion with a guy a few weeks back.
He was complaining that we dont pay Bangers enough money for the Clothes they make. I said to him how much were they making before Clothes started being manufactured there ?

People invested capital in Bangerland to produce products and created massive amounts of jobs. That is a huge win for that Country.



Okay. You tell me why a shirt made by Gucci @ $2000 is worth more than a tshirt made in a sweatshop in Bangledesh for 50 cents.
I would rather buy local. Because i know, most products are made as cheap as possible, and that exploits poor economies.
You could rationalise it by saying, they are less poor than before, the west has created a job for them, to create a shirt for us.
But guess what, that Gucci shirt was also made in the same country, or perhaps China. For 50 cents. Then, a company in the west has added a 1000% profit margin, barely any of that wealth is going back to the manufacturer.
Capitalism creates a brand, a desire for something greater than it actually is.
09:08pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38608 posts
Public policy is fundamentally about no care no responsibility. That's why it will never deliver superior outcomes.
It is NOT fundamentally about that at all.

"No care no responsibility" might be the unintended side effect from those in our society that are too lazy or whatever. That is a shame but it is the cost of having such a programme and it must be borne because the alternative, in most cases, sucks way more.

"Public policy" is about a lot of things but what I assume you're talking about is the part of it dedicated to helping those who can't help themselves.

And as we see in healthcare, public policy healthcare actually delivers superior outcomes all the time when compared to (say) private healthcare like in the United States. Lower costs and better health outcomes. It is actually a pretty cold hard fact so it puzzles me that you would attempt to go down this path.
09:12pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38609 posts
Okay. You tell me why a shirt made by Gucci @ $2000 is worth more than a tshirt made in a sweatshop in Bangledesh for 50 cents.
It's worth what people will pay for it

that is how markets work; there is nothing wrong with that
09:15pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4924 posts
It's worth what people will pay for it

that is how markets work; there is nothing wrong with that


There is something wrong with that. The only people who can afford something so expensive are ones that live within a wealthy economy.
A person can work as hard & smart within a market of Bangladesh vs someone working as "smartly" as someone in Australia. The wealth gained will be drastically different. We all need to be on a level playing field. Certain conditions are reinforcing this.
09:28pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23453 posts
That's great trog. You can go public and I will go private!
09:32pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38610 posts
There is something wrong with that. The only people who can afford something so expensive are ones that live within a wealthy economy.
Even in a "wealthy economy" there are many people who can't afford that. Luxuries will exist until we move into a post-scarcity economy and it's not realistic to pretend otherwise.

The differences between economies will get smoothed out as technology improves, assuming those s***** third world countries can break out of their cycle of despots and dictators and religious extremism that keep their people submissive. This is already happening in markets like China and India (I've spoken to tech people who no longer outsource to these markets because they've grown too expensive, which basically just means there are people willing to do it for basically nothing in other countries where the competition hasn't evolved to that point yet).

I am encouraged that things in these countries are gradually improving. I don't think it will happen in the Middle East soon because they are slaves to religion and the oligarchy. But they have bigger problems.

In the meantime if people are dead set pants on head crazy enough to want to buy a $2000 shirt, more power to them
09:33pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38611 posts
That's great trog. You can go public and I will go private!
I assume you mean "you'll go private with your cushy private insurance heavily buoyed by the amazing public health system in Australia", and not "you'll go private in the United States which is actually much closer to the institution that you think you are describing"

"Going private" in the US would be basically your only option. Even WITH many Obamacare plans you might end up with a copay that is a percentage of the total. My partner's copay with her employer was 20%. "Going private" means most people get wiped out financially in the kind of market you're talking about.

But nice bon mot
09:36pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4925 posts
That's great trog. You can go public and I will go private!


Of course you would. Because you have the wealth to do so. Lucky you!
While i could afford private, i choose Public because i support public healthcare, and private hospitals are a cesspool of profit driven parasites on society. Healtcare should not be for profit.
Like the USA model... Oh you can't afford your vital medication that keeps you alive, and we don't cover that in our policy. Sorry.
09:42pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23454 posts


Of course you would. Because you have the wealth to do so. Lucky you!
While i could afford private, i choose Public because i support public healthcare, and private hospitals are a cesspool of profit driven parasites on society. Healtcare should not be for profit.
Like the USA model... Oh you can't afford your vital medication that keeps you alive, and we don't cover that in our policy. Sorry.


as I demonstrated above health care is completely for profit.
09:44pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4926 posts
Yes, and it shouldn't be. If you think it should be for profit, you're missing some sort of empathy for your fellow man.
Certain conditions cause people to lose jobs, and unable to afford healthcare. The Americans sure seem to be missing something here, at least on the republican side.
Their response would be, oh well, should have tried harder!
09:50pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38613 posts
What does "health care is completely for profit" even mean?

My dad works for the public health system and is paid a salary. Is that for profit?
09:54pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4927 posts
Public hospitals only need enough funding to meet demand.

Private spends alot of its profits on lucrative features in its rooms. about the only advantage is has over public. They can charge excessive fees to insurance companies because they'll know they will pay it.

Some patients in the states have to create a case, or write to a hospital to convince them of their desperation in being unable to pay the bill. Just shows how much they gouge with pricing.
10:00pm 24/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12511 posts
While i could afford private, i choose Public because i support public healthcare,


So a poor person has to wait longer for Healthcare because well-to-do Vash believes in Universal Healthcare.

The definitive American Liberal.
10:09pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23455 posts
What does "health care is completely for profit" even mean?

My dad works for the public health system and is paid a salary. Is that for profit?


Sooo if a private hospital delivers surgery and therapies for profit = bad, but if a public hospital delivers the same services for the same cost by way of bloated staffing, inefficient ordering and unionised salaries = good?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256_nqlyaa.png

Both are profit/greed driven systems - it's just that different people are receiving the profit and vested interests in each situation are gaming for their own benefit.... When will it become apparent that all systems are greed driven!!


Which over time has the best chance of delivering greater efficiency, a private sector competitive market or the public sector bureaucracy?

The problem with the health system is that the political machine that controls the funding is also "public sector" i.e. not driven by efficient outcomes but more by taking directors from vested interests (big pharma, trade unions, AMA) who then slap the politicians on the back when they get favourable outcomes.

While health is publicly funded in an open purse strings style - health doesn't really have a chance to become efficient in Australia - the private sector will cream profits and public system will cream inefficiencies into individual back pockets. The Mises Institute paper I linked to above describes American private sector gaming of healthcare in detail.
10:11pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4928 posts


So a poor person has to wait longer for Healthcare because well-to-do Vash believes in Universal Healthcare.

The definitive American Liberal.


You're truly an idiot...
My tax pays for medicare, giving more funding to public. I have never been admitted to hospital.
A person on private pays less to medicare.
10:12pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23456 posts


You're truly an idiot...
My tax pays for medicare, giving more funding to public. I have never been admitted to hospital.
A person on private pays less to medicare.


Do you pay medicare surcharge Vash? i.e. do you earn over $90k?
10:20pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38614 posts
Which over time has the best chance of delivering greater efficiency, a private sector competitive market or the public sector bureaucracy?
A public sector bureaucracy is the answer borne out by literally all the available evidence in every case around the world that I am aware of (and you, as far as I'm aware, as you weren't able to provide any examples to the contrary when I asked you earlier.

This seems like one of those cases where a capitalist would rail against someone extolling the virtues of socialism or communism. You're describing a hypothetical in which it sure would be nice if the free market worked to create efficient solutions to health care. But in reality, what actually happens is people f*** it all up because they're jerks. (I hope the irony of this is not lost on anyone.)

I note you didn't answer my extremely simple and to-the-point-question but just raised another really boring strawman
10:25pm 24/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4929 posts


Do you pay medicare surcharge Vash? i.e. do you earn over $90k?


Yep, though not every financial year, depends on the OT.
10:28pm 24/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23457 posts
I note you didn't answer my extremely simple and to-the-point-question but just raised another really boring strawman


I even bolded it for you. You didn't read my response. Very concerning, you have blinkers on thinking of profit in a conventional manner. It's not unusual though because it's the way most vested interests like unions and peak bodies force their bloat and corruption onto the taxpayer. Henry Hazlittt explores the many frauds of the rent seeker in his book.

A public sector bureaucracy is the answer borne out by literally all the available evidence in every case around the world that I am aware of (and you, as far as I'm aware, as you weren't able to provide any examples to the contrary when I asked you earlier.


read the mises institute article I linked to and you will find the astronomical rise in health care costs in the US commences around the start of the 80s exactly when a number of anti-competitive legislative measures in the US were passed by Congress.

The US doesn't have a competitive private health-care system - it is controlled by vested interests and politicians. Unsurprising.

While health is publicly funded in an open purse strings style - health doesn't really have a chance to become efficient in Australia - the private sector will cream profits and public system will cream inefficiencies into individual back pockets. The Mises Institute paper I linked to above describes American private sector gaming of healthcare in detail.


Oh wow I spelt it out for you again. I am convinced you didnt even read my response.... Nevertheless I will keep trying.
10:47pm 24/11/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6165 posts

like, say, human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia? or Pakistan? I would like to stop doing business with those places but I fear we make too much money out of it

I mean I guess if we are concerned about human rights abuses though we should make sure we've got our own house in order with respect to mandatory detention too :)

Spot on I completely agree, NOW we are starting to discuss some of the real issues in the world, high level corruption. Also a good option you mentioned when leaning on governments to stop abuses in their country or if refusing to let others help them if required. A united front across the world threatening to stop trade/business with countries refusing to address ongoing abuses in their country.

This then brings us to the high level corruption fight. How do we the people address this?
I cannot see how huge corruption isn't why the world is as bad as it is and continues to get worse, why help a select few countries but leave others completely alone.
Human greed is a great driver and motivator, makes sense those with high levels of greed do well fighting their way to the top.

Corruption is what we need to be discussing, getting offended and creating movements about not wasting time and money making irrational noise about the symptoms and some of the left blindingly assuming racism and hate and some on the right also making blanket statements while not taking the time to look into the core underlying goals.


Regarding privatising public entities I strongly oppose. I believe the government should own the core infrastructure power, electricity, post office, roads, highways etc. with private companies welcome to compete as resellers of the infrastructure adding bells and whistles or as complete competitors of their own superior products. People should always have a reliable but cheap alternative to fall back on which is likely to be without the bells and whistles of the private sector. For example public = a phone line and ADSL speeds that is reliable but private sector includes virtual answering machines, high call volume packages, ADSL2/NBN speeds, higher bandwidth quotas etc.

Public sector is cheap with no marketing budget what so ever focusing solely on efficient and reliable service to private companies and perhaps directly to the public. Private companies compete through low reseller fees, and providing add ons.

I see the simple solution is making people responsible for the entities and their performance like they would in the private sector. Hire a CEO like you would a high end company, yes pay should be similar to the private sector but reliable and affordable needs to be the mandate, this is achieved through efficiency, simple solutions and smart planning. Subsidy by the government if required during poor performance periods which is WHY we pay tax in the first place.


50 years ago governments owned and ran everything comfortably with reasonable tax rates and prices. Now days we pay for water and electricity has been going through the roof for some time.
Yes times are different but with Australias 2016/2017 budget showing $197b in income tax revenue with $157b in welfare and security outgoings, scary to think about. I think we need to have a harder look at who's getting it, I'm talking about people cheating the system making careers of it. These can be people both at the lower end of the scale cheating centerlink and those at the high end using entities like governments or the UN as puppets for their own agendas.

EDIT: source for aus budget
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-03/budget-2016-sliced-diced-interactive/7363834#spending/breakdown/2017/other-purposes
10:56pm 24/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38615 posts
I even bolded it for you. You didn't read my response.
you pasted me something from an Ayn Rand novel.
Very concerning, you have blinkers on thinking of profit in a conventional manner.
I was asking /you/ a question to try to establish how you think about it.

I already know people engage in "rational self interest". I'm just trying to figure out what your definition of a "for profit health system" is
The US doesn't have a competitive private health-care system - it is controlled by vested interests and politicians. Unsurprising.
I don't disagree; my position is that the kind of market you envisage is purely theoretical and I don't think is possible for it to exist, for the same reasons that it doesn't and can't exist in US.

I think the efficiency gains you get from a single system outweigh the "damage" caused by bloat.
12:46am 25/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1953 posts

Our healthcare system is relatively efficient.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient

I am sure some kind of capitalist utopia could beat it though.


06:59am 26/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7529 posts
09:25am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4930 posts
Infi will chime in and say its somehow the Government's fault, even though Healthcare in the states is firmly in the hands of the private sector.

Australian healthcare in the top #5.
Damn socialist policies being so inefficient!@&*
09:33am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4931 posts
Yep, silly dumb greens

https://www.crikey.com.au/2016/11/25/greens-drive-regular-aussies-into-the-arms-of-pauline-hanson/


Yet what the people want isn't always the smartest way to go. Australian birthrates are down. So you need to increase immigration to offset that.
Hanson & the far right want to drop immigration, so they will have to find a way to get people having kids, much more often.

Perhaps some ads like in Denmark?

09:40am 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23458 posts

@trog

So you accept people act in rational self-interest yet you characterize me stating that exact point it as "pasting something from an Ayn Rand novel".... you are not making any sense

My definition of for profit health system is that at every step of the vertical supply chain there are people and businesses operating for profit. It is really dense to suggest that because a hospital is operated by government the economy around the hospital suddenly becomes not for profit. Especially when you have big pharma, medical suppliers, AMA surgeons and specialists, all making absolute fortunes (and unionised workers bargaining obscene wage increases and limiting work practices) suggesting public health is not for profit is not accurate, it's just not concentrating the profit in a company with shareholders.

my position is that the kind of market you envisage is purely theoretical and I don't think is possible for it to exist, for the same reasons that it doesn't and can't exist in US.


despite both America and Australia having legislation specifically designed to outlaw anti-competitive conduct, you think I am idealistic to expect either government to regulate their respective health systems without permitting cozy uncompetitive arrangements. A single cronyist payer will deliver more efficiency than a free market....?

https://mises.org/blog/how-government-regulations-made-healthcare-so-expensive

the article that i posted (that you did not read) cites 11 different anti-competitive legislative arrangements passed by Congress starting in 1910 and demonstrates how health care costs started to skyrocket in the 1970s.

all it takes to make america great again (and Australia to health system too) is the remove the anti-competitive legislation passed restricting supply. It is completely insane to legalise supply restricting practices which drive up prices then suggest a single payer (govt) pay all the astronomical bills!

edit: my optometrist dutifully contacts me for an eye check up every six months (even though I don't need it) because it is bulk billed by medicare. i don't go because I know my eyes are fine but this unlimited over-servicing of the community is cost the taxpayer billions more than it has to. the amount of overservicing (and overmedication) i see by GPs in the aged care industry is outrageous - it is a cash cow. that is why every consultation needs a co-payment. healthcare is not for amusement and social company, it is for necessary patients.

@vash you will note Denmark is not importing incompatible cultures as a solution?
10:50am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4932 posts
you'll have to eventually concede that sometimes doing things publicly is better than private. And the proof is already there comparing the American, Australian & UK systems.

Your optometrist is smart. He is doing preventative healthcare, saving the taxpayer in the long run too. That's why regular GP visits is smart too.

Do you service your car, or wait for it to develop a problem then pay huge amounts to fix it?


you will note Denmark is not importing incompatible cultures as a solution?


We have a cool community of Muslims living in Sydney. I go there for work quite often. Seems compatible to me.
Only the xenophobics drive past and go, "fkn muslims this place is a s***hole, i feel unsafe. "
11:18am 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23460 posts
Do you service your car, or wait for it to develop a problem then pay huge amounts to fix it?


A car service prevents wear and tear. An eye test does no such thing you fool. I don't get my car tested every 6 months - I wait for some indication of "sickness". Lol what a fail.

The taxpayer does not win from overservicing, the only winners are suppliers.

We have a cool community of Muslims living in Sydney. I go there for work quite often. Seems compatible to me.
Only the xenophobics drive past and go, "fkn muslims this place is a s***hole, i feel unsafe. "


But Denmark! It's socialist and so cool!

@sir redhat your bloomberg article supports my suggestion that government regulation is the problem not the solution.
11:24am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4933 posts
Seriously? You cannot detect every illness you may have.
Same as you cannot detect every problem your car has, unless you've had the proper training.

Hence, brake discs/pads get checked, oil leaks etc. If these remain unchecked, your car will likely die.
You don't get regular blood tests? If your cholesterol remains too high, you may die.
If your eye develops signs of a problem undetectable to yourself, you may go blind.

It's up to you of course how important your health is. But to the taxpayer, its important for everyone to get checkups so they don't have to go on disability benefits for the rest of their life due to going blind.
11:37am 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23461 posts
There are all sorts of indicators in cars and humans for illness or wear and tear. Yes there are a range of preventative health procedures that I agree are wise to undertake. I am talking about overservicing and unnecessary consumption of services which adds nothing to community health but makes the health industry very rich. That is why services need a price signal because free services are consumed to exhaustion.
11:45am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4934 posts
Not always.
Loose bolts on your car can cause all sorts of big issues, same with oil leaks. Almost undetectable.
Same with high cholesterol or other blood markers that only regular checkups can catch.
11:53am 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4935 posts
11:59am 26/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12513 posts
Transgender does not exist.
There is no legitimate Medical Evidence.
Really, this is somewhat like Climate Change.
People just nod their head and agree its happening.

I would suggest the Boy had many problems in his life besides being Gay even though he was 13 ? isnt that kind of young to be Out ?
oh wait we arent in the world of evidence we are in the world of the head nodding. It must be Climate Change, no hes Gay, no hes Trans, no hes CIS, no its something but White Privilege is to blame.

I have stepped in several times seeing people bullied.
It is abhorrent to anyone who has a strong belief in Freedom.
If you are watching someone being bullied and you dont intervene You are part of that bullying. If my kid is being beaten with a fence post hes out of that School.

and finally, the reason our Health System is doing well is because it is.....
wait for it....
Its Funded.
With the Budget Emergency that is going to change.
Universal Healthcare is not Free.

You have to understand how a Medical Centre operates.
Its not a Food Kitchen its a business.
The Patient is like a field of Minerals.
He must be mined to make money.
Every Test your Dr sends you to make money for the Medical Center.

Of course there is a benefit to testing but you have to understand its a Business, its not a charity. Someone is always making money. That is Universal Healthcare.

hey Vash diod you see Safe Schools Roze Ward bullying that Trump supporter recently ?
12:54pm 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4936 posts

Frankly replying to you would be a waste of time, Faceman.
So heres some evidence for you to ignore, just like any not so bright conservative.

Transsexual gene identified

and more here
http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/dz1g4/call_out_for_links_statistics_resources/


01:12pm 26/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12515 posts
So you are claiming there is a Gene Test for Transgender ?
and that story is from 2008 ?

How would you explain people who say they are Transgender but years later change their mind ?

Ive been to Reddit a few times.
It is somewhere to the Left of The ABC, the greens.
lets see what we have there:
Brains Scans ? very popular in Reefer Madness research

Hormones dont turn a Male Brain into a Female Brain.
That is completely ludicrous.

You can not tell a Male Brain from a Female Brain
At least not physically but there is one killer piece of evidence
Male Brain Cells have a Y chromosome, Females Brains do not.
Yet Female Brains function fine.

You see Men are Men because its in their Genes.
Its not about what kind of Jeans they wear.

Transgender is, I think Fashion.
like BlackFace make-up
Its not really a black person.
04:32pm 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4937 posts
You've gotta be trolling. k.
04:35pm 26/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25567 posts
It must suck to be scientifically illiterate but surely it is possible to overcome it.
05:11pm 26/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12516 posts
Such popular delusions are characterized by a false belief unsupported by any scientific or empirical evidence and have a contagious quality that overrides rational thinking and even common sense. This all-too-human tendency to suspend individual critical judgment and go along with the crowd is greatly facilitated by social media.

Most important, however, the cause has received the imprimatur of “experts.” The very people who should know better have bought into the hysteria. Just as “mental health professionals” a generation ago supported the child abuse delusions, and even participated in prosecuting the unjustly accused, so too have they fueled the fire of the transgender delusion.


http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/psychiatry-professor-transgenderism-is-merely-mass-hysteria-and-junk-science?utm_source=COTR&utm_medium=COTR&utm_campaign=COTR
05:15pm 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23463 posts
transgender is so hot right now.
05:27pm 26/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25568 posts
Just like climate change, it shouldn't be. It's only social conservatives scared of things they don't think are normal who are creating noise about it.
05:31pm 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23464 posts
And fashion magazines and news networks and social media. It is super red hot. Get a new d*** or a new set of tits and the media goes crazy.

It's the in thing at every university as well. If you're not queer there's no way you can be cool.

Just genetics though... Haha
05:37pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2143 posts
Do you know much about transgender fpot?
05:48pm 26/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25569 posts
What answer will induce the least amount of of excruciating circular argumentation from you?
06:08pm 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4938 posts
infi, maybe, just maybe people are more comfortable coming out the closet now because society is finally evolving beyond gays being the devil? Now trans is becoming less of a taboo, this has nothing to do with fashion statements. The media promoting it is great too, so people are less likely to be bullied.
I know its hard to grasp things being different from your old fashioned ways.

Look out fpot, PP is trying for another gotcha moment.
06:21pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2144 posts
I've never given you a circular argument. We can discuss how an image may have inherent properties or not, or if the intention behind the image matters again if you'd like. But it's not circular reasoning.

Just wondering what these comments are based on:

It's only social conservatives scared of things they don't think are normal who are creating noise about it.
It must suck to be scientifically illiterate but surely it is possible to overcome it.


your own detailed scientific knowledge of the subject no doubt.
06:25pm 26/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2145 posts
Not like its difficult for a gotcha with you vash. You don't post much else.
06:26pm 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23465 posts
infi, maybe, just maybe people are more comfortable coming out the closet now because society is finally evolving beyond gays being the devil? Now trans is becoming less of a taboo, this has nothing to do with fashion statements. The media promoting it is great too, so people are less likely to be bullied.
I know its hard to grasp things being different from your old fashioned ways.

Look out fpot, PP is trying for another gotcha moment.


Like a great movie twist we had 35 genders all along.
06:32pm 26/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12517 posts
Climate Change Hysteria could fit the above I posted.

The common theme in both is Far Left Ideology and the reshaping of Society to suit it. You might not understand something but you can easily determine what it is by the Ideologies that embrace it.

Roze Ward and her Safe Schools program, she is an anti-Capitalist, Marxist.
Is she fighting Bullying ?
or is she using Bullying as a way of implementing Far Left Ideology into our Education System.

07:23pm 26/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7530 posts
Hanson & the far right want to drop immigration, so they will have to find a way to get people having kids, much more often.


That's true but it doesn't answer the question of why the birth rate is so low in the first place.

The average punter is pissed off and both the far right and the watermelons are ignoring the great uneducated lower and middle classes who see their standard of living dropping - same thing caused Trump and Brexit.

Both sides need to connect and compromise with the middle class or these groups like One Nation will only grow in power, sadly.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 20:26:59 26/Nov/16
08:17pm 26/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38617 posts
And fashion magazines and news networks and social media.
as I've said before... Twitter problems. Vocal conservative d**** and left wing nutjobs making it into a much bigger problem than it actually is in reality.

who gives a s***? what possible impact is this going to have on your life? I can understand pants on head crazy religionists caring but how could it affect anyone else in any way aside from just being irritating (note: I find a lot of it irritating, like the pronoun issue).
08:58pm 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23466 posts
as I've said before... Twitter problems. Vocal conservative d**** and left wing nutjobs making it into a much bigger problem than it actually is in reality.

who gives a s***? what possible impact is this going to have on your life? I can understand pants on head crazy religionists caring but how could it affect anyone else in any way aside from just being irritating (note: I find a lot of it irritating, like the pronoun issue).


the reason it matters is if someone tries to do this they will be prosecuted.

http://i.imgur.com/3hN4zGh.png
09:38pm 26/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4939 posts
Cool prejudice there infi.
So if the person is qualified for the job, you wont hire them just because they were born a different way than you're used to?
10:09pm 26/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23467 posts
That's not my opinion It's a post from imgur. But now they are being harassed for thinking bizarre gender identifications are just weird.

There's no way I could present staff with gender identity dysmorphia to my customers. They could be ok in back office jobs.

And that's why these really boring antics matter trog.

My best activities coordinator is gay he acts like a queen but he knows it.
10:32pm 26/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38618 posts
I don't read fashion magazines so I guess I'm missing all the stories about all these prosecutions that are happening

I sympathise heavily with the right of the employer to decide who they want to employ for whatever reason they want, but I also recognise that this might need to be balanced against the rights of those that might often be discriminated against. I am not sure I can come down entirely on the side of the employer although to me it seems like the simplest and easiest solution (which generally I prefer).

I am not sure how many actual cases it would take where an employee suing an employer for these sorts of discriminations for me to go "wow this is a widespread and serious problem" but so far I don't think we're there yet. So I feel comfortable not taking it seriously. Perhaps I am wrong and it is much more common than I think, in which case I imagine there are many resources devoted to looking at it.
11:28pm 26/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1954 posts

Climate Change Hysteria could fit the above I posted.

The common theme in both is Far Left Ideology and the reshaping of Society to suit it. You might not understand something but you can easily determine what it is by the Ideologies that embrace it.

Roze Ward and her Safe Schools program, she is an anti-Capitalist, Marxist.
Is she fighting Bullying ?
or is she using Bullying as a way of implementing Far Left Ideology into our Education System.



Safe schools program totally unneeded. We need more chaplains to just pray the gay away.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-25/mother-blames-schoolyard-bullies-for-13-year-old's-suicide/8059336
10:43am 27/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12519 posts
Replacing one Ideology with another.

I dont support Chaplains either.
Jesus and Allah wont protect you from Bullies.


01:08pm 27/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1955 posts

It is not an ideology despite how much you think cultural marxism is an actual thing.

Speaking of bullies, it's time for brandis to go.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-27/greens-call-for-parliamentary-inquiry-into-brandis-secret-deal/8060862

Federal ICAC when?


02:04pm 27/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4941 posts
Federal ICAC when?


As soon as more people start voting greens. They also know drugs should be decriminalized, war on drugs is an utter failure etc etc.
04:53pm 27/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7531 posts
^ Sadly, the Greens are committing a slow suicide.

They need to get back to their core environmental policies.
08:08pm 27/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38619 posts
Replacing one Ideology with another.
teaching those to be tolerant, and to not tolerate intolerance? yeh I guess that's an ideology

let me guess, what you want to replace with is not an ideology but something different
10:06pm 27/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12521 posts
we cant teach Tolerance without Safe Schools ?
Roze Ward and her qualifications and where Safe Schools comes from

http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/dumb-sodomy-cash/

That doesnt sound like a Tolerant person.






11:00pm 27/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4942 posts
^ Sadly, the Greens are committing a slow suicide.

They need to get back to their core environmental policies.


That tends to happen when a political force is making sound logical decisions. Parties seem to need to remain in the crazy camp to receive a robust number of votes.
Their new drug policy is dead on where we need to go. And i think the only party to support a federal ICAC? Can only make our democracy stronger.
11:26pm 27/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38620 posts
we cant teach Tolerance without Safe Schools ?
Roze Ward and her qualifications and where Safe Schools comes from

http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2016/03/dumb-sodomy-cash/

That doesnt sound like a Tolerant person.
Yeh I was mostly trying to point out the irony of complaining about replacing something with another ideology when it's clear that you have your own ideology that you'd happily put in there

also f*** me at the train wrecks of humanity that post in the comments on that website. never read the comments! also hahah at their attempted Socratic dialog about global warming
12:56am 28/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25570 posts
Indistinguishable from right-wing satire.
01:03am 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2146 posts
also f*** me at the train wrecks of humanity that post in the comments on that website.


I take it you did stop to read the actual article though right?

This academic concentration on feminist theory and cultural studies, rather than on medicine and psychology, was reflected in the construction of the Safe Schools campaign, which quite avoided consultation with child psychiatrists and paediatricians, and other professionals who possess expert medical knowledge of sexuality and gender-identity issues.


Given the kind of damage bullying does is psychological seems difficult to maintain there is no ideological bent on the program when it eschews Child Psychiatrists and Paediatricians. Seems like a program like that is destined to leave the actual harm done by bullying unaddressed. We sure will know a lot about marcuse and foucault though. Here is another interesting article about treating childhood gender disphoria. I think we can both take an educated guess at which camp ward falls in.

Keep in mind Roz Ward herself isn't a psychologist. She is a gender theorist, and a poorly qualified one at that, master of arts phulees. Interesting choice, given that bullying does psychological harm.

Gender theorists recently discovered that breast feeding isn't "natural but in fact gendered". Life saving (totally not ideologically driven) work I'm sure you'll agree.

Gender theorists are also:

Merging feminist postcolonial science studies and feminist political ecology, the feminist glaciology framework generates robust analysis of gender, power, and epistemologies in dynamic social-ecological systems, thereby leading to more just and equitable science and human-ice interactions.
Glaciology is in fact a gendered science (who knew right, thank god "totally devoid of an ideological slant" gender theorists are here to tell us.).

I'd take a wander through real peer review before talking about ideology (or the lack of it) and gender theory.

teaching those to be tolerant, and to not tolerate intolerance? yeh I guess that's an ideology


Pretty sure you're going to be able to get 99.999999% of the population on board with "bullying is bad". If there is objection, could be worth looking into why, rather than waffling about tolerance.
07:26am 28/11/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1035 posts
Gender theorists like that should be getting their degrees at the same "colleges" and "universities" that give out degrees in astrology and naturopathy, not at actual places of higher learning.
09:27am 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38622 posts
Yeh I was mostly trying to point out the irony of complaining about replacing something - oh wait, I already said that.
Gender theorists recently discovered that breast feeding isn't "natural but in fact gendered". Life saving (totally not ideologically driven) work I'm sure you'll agree.
edit: that is pretty f*****g funny tho. Total strawman though but pretty hilarious
07:47pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38623 posts
^ Sadly, the Greens are committing a slow suicide.

They need to get back to their core environmental policies.
I actually think they should move away from them! I think the only future they really have is to become a more well-rounded party that is not a single issue. At the moment the general impression of them (purely anecdotally at least in my experience) seems to be that they're just scruffy hippy treehuggers with no real sound economic policies (... arguable).

I think they're quite excellent in a lot of other areas though - technical and privacy and civil liberty kind of stuff. But even I don't agree with all their environmental policies. I think they could take a less hardline view but they'd risk alienating their "base", for whatever that's worth.
07:59pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2147 posts
Yeah, would be a strawman if the field wasn't rife with this exact kind of "research". But it is. again it is worth checking real peer review. Both of those articles are peer reviewed, please keep that in mind before writing it off as a strawman. having worked for a peer reviewed journal that means both papers were read and approved by multiple gender scholars, ideally from other universities.

Peer Review is supposed to keep nonsense like that from seeing the light of day. Clearly in gender theory it is failing. Badly.

*edit*
Which begs the question, what place does it have in a junior high school anti bullying program?
08:00pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38625 posts
Yeh I deleted that point scoring thing (almost) immediately afterwards because I realised it was hypocritical as f***. Sorry!
08:47pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2148 posts
In the interests of charity, I'll direct you to these three articles which serve as part of the basis of my skeptisim for safe schools and most other politically correct safety measures (including how we discuss Islam). My view is that these things are all loosely connected, and I don't pretend offer particularly simple or complete analysis.
But then what was it John Stewart said about bulls*** mountain "our problems are stratified and the solutions simplified". Safe Schools falls squarely in that bracket imo (LGBT bullying is a matter of imminent life and death, all we have to do to stop is use the correct pronouns and don't use the word "gay" such that it carries a negative connotation).

Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science
Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science Part II
Donald Trump and the Failure of Mainstream Social Science Part III
09:01pm 28/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38627 posts
I don't know anything about Safe Schools other than it seems like a good idea in theory

I'll read those links later when I have some more time (a violation of my current policy to not click on anything that has the word 'Trump' in it because zzzzz) - but glancing at their opening statements I'm already lost. It seems to open with the premise that all these "social scientists" (obviously from the title they're going to be the target) are sitting around literally dumbfounded and shellshocked that their science is broken because the polls were wrong. e.g.
The reason, I suggest, is that the social sciences have fostered an environment where certain beliefs are held above scientific inquiry, thus making them unchallengeable. Consequently, scientists are unable to adjust their models of human behaviour when they make poor predictions, forcing the scientists instead into a position of surprise, perplexity, and moral condemnation.
This reads, at a glance, like an anti-science article trying to paste (edit: paint!) all scientists with a very very VERY broad brush. But what else would you expect from an economist :) edit: ducks from taggs
09:38pm 28/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2149 posts
There are three articles. I'll wait for the considered opinion.
09:44pm 28/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4553 posts
Roze Ward and her qualifications and where Safe Schools comes from

I was wondering whether this classist jibber-jabber was for real, then I realised it was Quadrant
07:07pm 29/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4943 posts
There are three articles. I'll wait for the considered opinion.


Having read the first article & then the comments, i didn't bother with the remaining two articles. More stupid conservative talk of anti progressive thinking.
The entire cause of Trump & the rise of the right is because of neoliberalism & establishment oppression of wealth equality.
The people are being fooled into thinking that the left are the cause of their problems. The problem, is caused by centrists & the right, policies that cause wealth to dry up from the lower & middle classes.
The blame is being deflected onto political correctness, cultural marxism, socialists, .. pure stupidity. Look at the establishment, who want their taxes to be lowered, and for wealth to continue to flow to them. Republican & right wingers alike ensure this continues. Trump & other neolibs have played you all for fools.
09:04pm 29/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23469 posts
The three articles are spot on. The problem with academic leftist research is that it is charged with moral judgement and Joe Average is sick of being judged by academics and commentators who are no better than them. There is really only two ways Joe Average can manifest their dissatisfaction with these preaching institutions: 1) do not associate with them and 2) reject political structures supporting them.

Safe Schools is an excellent example of morally charged intervention - if you don't like/accept trans queer people you are a bad person. An anti-bullying campaign in general would have been far more constructive. This then takes the isolationist outlook away from trans and encourages them to be considered like every other person, instead of this IM QUEER IM SPECIAL I NEED A PROGRAM.

That is exactly what mainstrream Australia is sick of. And "progressives" don't realise that the more they use value charged language the more mainstream disinterested people will rail against their causes. As with all sales, high pressure tactics don't work, the slow burn is best. And now the US has a highly skilled businessman and negotiator in the top seat the high pressure leftist bullying tactics will crash and burn dismally. Trump has a rhetoric which connects directly with the voters and unashamedly rejects political correctness.

It is refreshing to see the liberal elites have the door shut in the face of their agenda of special interests.
09:45pm 29/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4944 posts
Those special interests are bred by the selfish financial interests of centrists & the right.
Hilary isn't a leftist, far from it. It's hilarious if people actually think this is true. She's a champion of wall street, not far off Trump.

If you actually want to kill off this style of corporate style politics, you need to either vote far left, or far right. It's unfortunate that people seem to be fast to vote for nationalist policy, Pauline hanson / Trump types.
This just leads to further inequality & targeting minorities instead of the real enemy, the establishment. Trump is just another establishment stooge.
10:06pm 29/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2150 posts
Having read the first article & then the comments, i didn't bother with the remaining two articles.


Guess we are still waiting for the considered opinion then champ.
11:29pm 29/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4945 posts


Guess we are still waiting for the considered opinion then champ.


That would be like giving an opinion on the thoughts of Malcolm roberts. Waste of time.
11:59pm 29/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2151 posts
Yeah except, like trump, he is an elected law maker. Like it or not his opinion matters now. My word you are a case study in the damage political tribalism does to minds. I've never seen someone openly parade their naked ignorance on so much as a badge of civic virtue.

More stupid conservative talk of anti progressive thinking.


Yeah except the guy who wrote it isn't a conservative. It's a problem Jonathan Haidt has been talking about for a while now. Again not a conservative.

The entire cause of Trump & the rise of the right is because of neoliberalism & establishment oppression of wealth equality.


It just wasn't. We have known for a while trump isn't getting huge working class support.

He won Michigan but lost Detroit (or motor city) in a landslide (Hillary won Detroit by 66%) and lost Flint the big centers of industrial decline in the state. So try again little fella.
07:51am 30/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7532 posts
08:57am 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2152 posts
09:43am 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4946 posts
Yeah except, like trump, he is an elected law maker. Like it or not his opinion matters now. My word you are a case study in the damage political tribalism does to minds. I've never seen someone openly parade their naked ignorance on so much as a badge of civic virtue.



It just wasn't. We have known for a while trump isn't getting huge working class support.

He won Michigan but lost Detroit (or motor city) in a landslide (Hillary won Detroit by 66%) and lost Flint the big centers of industrial decline in the state. So try again little fella.


Of course, his opinions matter. That's the problem. When people so adamantly anti science are elected, there are some big problems with the flow of information that influence people's voting choices.
Same deal with Trump. Extremely dangerous for the world when we need to be tackling climate change right now.
this isn't about opinions or debate anymore. It's settled & done.
He has enough support of the lower & middle classes, or he wouldn't have been elected.
11:55am 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2153 posts
He has enough support of the lower & middle classes, or he wouldn't have been elected.


yeah so those hard stats I just provided which completely undermine the claim its neo-liberalism's fault say otherwise. and you talk about "anti-science" Jesus.

The median (ie most common not mean) trump voter has an annual income around the $70k mark (some states it was as high as $99k). US average is $60k.

That's hardly poverty.

its something like less than 14% of his support came from people with incomes under $50k.

Hillary's base had a lower median income, so this statement:

Hilary isn't a leftist, far from it. It's hilarious if people actually think this is true. She's a champion of wall street, not far off Trump.


If the election was solely (or even mostly) about railing about corporatism/neo-liberalism, makes no sense, measured against what we know about who voted for Hillary. Doubly so when you consider she won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes.

The people most hurt by your version of neo-liberalism voted for the champion of wall street. compelling analysis vash, truly.

The same pattern emerges in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania (Hillary crushed Pittsburgh the big steel city with a 16 point margin) and Ohio nytimes result map here

a working class revolution simply does not explain this election on its own, and I strongly doubt it explains much at all.

When people so adamantly anti science are elected, there are some big problems with the flow of information that influence people's voting choices.


Or they are acting in their own rational self interest and you just don't know what it is.
01:10pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4947 posts

those hard stats I just provided which completely undermine the claim its neo-liberalism's fault say otherwise. and you talk about "anti-science" Jesus.


I dont see a correlation between that article & discounting the cause being neoliberalism. All it's saying is that the voters were majority middle class whites. Clinton is pretty close to Trump on the political spectrum. Both are neoliberals in the sense of being paid off, looking after big business & the wealthy instead of working people. Then you got the neolib controlled congress for much of Obama's presidency. Obama was limited by much of what he could do.
Now if Sanders was the nominee, things would have been very different. One of the more honest & true anti establishment politician the states almost had the opportunity to vote for.
I suppose it has to get much worse before it'll get better, but it sure is a s***** time for it when we almost reached a unified agreement on climate action, and where we really need to get global economic activity going again.

So it seems the election was very much about anti establishment politics, and people were fooled into thinking Trump was the one to "drain the swamp" when really he's just moving the swamp into his backyard.
Here's hoping Sanders will still be fit enough by 2020, then the USA might finally have a taste of what makes Australia great.

Also, it seems people are confused what the left is. Clinton & the liberals of the states are closer to the LNP of Australia on the political spectrum.
The states need a stronger union movement, a political party that works for the people instead of big business. Because a business party won't allow a leftist like Sanders to be nominee.

http://i.imgur.com/M7kc4Fh.png
02:12pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2154 posts
Oh good an unsourced picture.

which places Trump to the left of Hillary.

I dont see a correlation between that article & discounting the cause being neoliberalism. All it's saying is that the voters were majority middle class whites. Clinton is pretty close to Trump on the political spectrum. Both are neoliberals in the sense of being paid off, looking after big business & the wealthy instead of working people.


You appear to be confusing neo-liberalism with corruption. with that said I'm not convinced you even know what the term means.

The correlation you're not seeing is the fact that the jobs everyone is talking about belong to the working class not the middle class. China is taking manufacturing jobs by and large not services jobs. Cities with large working class populations in the three key states voted for Clinton. Trump framed himself continually as an anti-neo-liberal. He is talking about an isolationist foreign policy and talking about ripping up free trade deals. These are the opposite of neo-liberalism. neo-liberalism is about integrated internationalism and free trade. The only thing you could say has even a wif of neo-liberalism about it is his tax platform.

The people who stand to get the most out of free trade etc IE people in the upper wage demographics (who face relatively low threat to their employment and will get cheaper goods) voted for Trump. The people most likely to be hurt by that voted for Hillary.

Either 100 million people have just voted against their self interest, or the cause is something else. The industrial decline caused by neo-liberalism argument does not stack up when you consider who is voting for whom. Even the anti-wall street argument doesn't really float because cities which were hit hard by sub-prime (see Cleveland Ohio for example) voted for a candidate who's wall street connections are undeniable.

One final point, if Clinton is a wall street shill so was Obama. There aren't huge discrepancies in their donor lists. Obama absolutely consulted with wall street when it came to economic policy.
03:11pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4948 posts
Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism)[1] refers primarily to the 20th century resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2]:7 These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The implementation of neoliberal policies and the acceptance of neoliberal economic theories in the 1970s are seen by some academics as the root of financialization, with the financial crisis of 2007–08 as one of the ultimate results.


copy pasta from wiki.
If you look at a few of these, it definitely describes Trump. He is pro privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation & reductions in government spending.
Clinton would seem to be far less so, but she is still firmly on the right side of the camp.

The source above is from politicalcompass.org.

It's true Obama is pretty much a status quo liberal, but at least did quite alot to move policy away from neoliberalism. Even Clinton had planned to stop private prisons, surprisingly.
03:39pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4949 posts

Looks like basic income is to be discussed in Australia.
http://apo.org.au/resource/basic-income-radical-idea-enters-mainstream

Fantastic idea for the coming automation age.


03:41pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2155 posts
So the picture you posted you don't agree with, you place Trump to the right of Clinton?

He is pro privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation & reductions in government spending.


You cannot be serious. His platform is literally the opposite of this. He is about to massively increase government spending on infrastructure. he is talking about increased spending for hospitals and schools. He wants to increase protectionism to repatriate jobs. he also want to expand the military.

That just isn't a privatization, fiscally austere policy program right there. You are a talking out your ass.
03:55pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4950 posts
he is doing what classic neolibs do. Sell off public assets, spend the cash on infrastructure, in a quick splash of stimulus, & increase spending on military, in the long run, it will be a cut in expenditure, and lead to smaller government.
The picture i posted gives you an idea where Clinton is on the spectrum, it isn't 100% accurate. She is not a leftist, is what im saying.
04:01pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2156 posts
Neo liberals or classic conservatives (does Hillary fall into this camp too) Vash?

What public asset sales is he talking about? I've not heard of any.

His policy platform has been infrastructure spending, better medical care for veterans, and withdrawing from international trade agreements.

There is almost nothing that is neo-liberal about that.

Every single conservative party has been stridently against stimulus. What are you talking about?
04:06pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4951 posts
okay you can pick the policies that aren't neoliberal, i can pick the policies that are neoliberal. You said the only thing that was neolib was his tax platform.
How do you think he is going to afford to not drastically decrease spending with his tax platform?
He is pro privitisation if he has no interest in making prisons public. Profit incentives ensure those prisons remain full.
He is repealing Obamacare, a public based insurance scheme, reverting to private insurance.

And who knows what's to come. to afford what he wants to do, he's going to have to sell something. Or go back on his word with tax policy.
04:11pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2157 posts
So we are back to neo-liberal now?

He is going to attempt to fund his infrastructure spending through debt really obviously. Which is an anti-neoliberal double whammy.

I don't understand what you're talking about with prisons. They aren't public now, so if maintaining the status quo is the measure Obama is a neo liberal with respect to prisons.

Obamacare regulates private health insurers it isn't a public insurance policy, so again I don't see how this privatising things. They are already private. Public input is managed through tax subsides, so the awful awful private health insurers get tax credits for taking on higher risk.

But winding it back if the election was all about a backlash to neo-liberalism how did this (not quite) obvious neo-liberal get elected again?

I'm getting the distinct impression neo-liberal means Vash doesn't like it.
04:24pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4952 posts

He is going to attempt to fund his infrastructure spending through debt really obviously. Which is an anti-neoliberal double whammy.


Mmm, i dont think that's obvious at all. Then again who knows with Trump, he says one thing and will do another depending who is his audience. Likely he will go further into debt then look for things to sell for when he realises he doesn't have the revenue or raise taxes again, or go back on his policy platform. and i guess none of the members of the LNP are neoliberal because their spending is at GFC levels?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/18/us-government-private-prisons-use-justice-department
Obama wanted to end private prisons, and started ramping it back.

Its obvious trump is pro privatization. Where is his solution for health? Is he going for universal health care which much of the world enjoys?
Obama im sure would have liked to do more with health, but obviously held back by congress.


But winding it back if the election was all about a backlash to neo-liberalism how did this obvious neo-liberal get elected again?


Like i said, he played everyone for fools. All these promises of making "America great again". Cute slogan. Making America great again would involve getting some of that wealth out of the establishment's hands.
Most people don't know s*** about politics so they'll go for the guy with the most charisma. That's the only way neoliberals get elected.
04:47pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2158 posts
He has explicitly stated he is prepared to fund infrastructure through debt.
Likely he will go further into debt then look for things to sell for when he realises he doesn't have the revenue or raise taxes again.

so it isn't obvious he will use debt, but it is likely he will, and then sell the projects for profits somehow? yes the clarity of thought is simply astonishing vash.

Obama announces ending private prisons two months before an election he is constitutionally barred from running in? Well you really have a clincher there. you sure showed me.

Like i said, he played everyone for fools. All these promises of making "America great again". Cute slogan. Making America great again would involve getting some of that wealth out of the establishment's hands.
Most people don't know s*** about politics so they'll go for the guy with the most charisma. That's the only way neoliberals get elected.


Not you though right, you're plugged into reality, you can see through it all. Trump was so charismatic he was the least popular candidate in US political history.

AAAAnd now we are in open conspiracy theory territory.

That post, where you present a well reasoned coherent argument, it is out there Vash.

I WANT TO BELIEVE
05:01pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4953 posts
Are you a Trump supporter PP?
06:11pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2159 posts
Just because I found fault with:

"Trump won because he convinced a bunch of people who benefit from neo-liberalism (but hate it) he was actually anti-neo-liberalism (while being obviously neo-liberal) and so got them to vote against their own self interest in a devilish plan to implement a neo-liberal agenda by using his outstanding charisma (by which you mean his unprecedentedly low approval rating)"

as an explanation for the election result doesn't mean I like him.
06:42pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1956 posts
ahaha, the pinup boy of the LNP hard right.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cyf1bepUcAAXt4r.jpg

Is he the new party whip?
07:42pm 30/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38631 posts
The three articles are spot on. The problem with academic leftist research is that it is charged with moral judgement and Joe Average is sick of being judged by academics and commentators who are no better than them. There is really only two ways Joe Average can manifest their dissatisfaction with these preaching institutions: 1) do not associate with them and 2) reject political structures supporting them.

Safe Schools is an excellent example of morally charged intervention - if you don't like/accept trans queer people you are a bad person. An anti-bullying campaign in general would have been far more constructive. This then takes the isolationist outlook away from trans and encourages them to be considered like every other person, instead of this IM QUEER IM SPECIAL I NEED A PROGRAM.

That is exactly what mainstrream Australia is sick of. And "progressives" don't realise that the more they use value charged language the more mainstream disinterested people will rail against their causes. As with all sales, high pressure tactics don't work, the slow burn is best. And now the US has a highly skilled businessman and negotiator in the top seat the high pressure leftist bullying tactics will crash and burn dismally. Trump has a rhetoric which connects directly with the voters and unashamedly rejects political correctness.

It is refreshing to see the liberal elites have the door shut in the face of their agenda of special interests.
I've tried to reply to this a few times but haven't been able to press submit. Is this genuinely what /you/ think or are you just interpreting on behalf of "mainstream" Australia?
07:56pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3148 posts
There's certainly some interesting opinion pieces on neoliberalism, I enjoyed this one: The death of neoliberalism and the crisis in western politics

No doubt Pete was captain of his debate club at school, amiright!? I see what he's getting at though, if we are to resolve and improve upon these Trump-like scenarios, the first step is correctly understanding the cause init. That's getting more difficult by the day as Trump looks to be normalising this whole 'post-truth' type era we seem to be in now, and delusion on the far left defo doesn't help it either. I've already mentioned I agree with the views that the militant left has significantly contributed to these problems.

Given we're seeing a rise of right-wing populism throughout many countries, especially the US, UK and Europe, it's a pretty serious concern - France's upcoming election will be another bellwether.
09:26pm 30/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23470 posts
The "post-truth" descriptor is so value-laden and preachy - what a perfect way to alienate voters by claiming they got their choice of leader wrong because they are not interested in the truth. I hope the liberal Left keep using "post-truth" so they can keep losing elections and we can be spared their preaching (yet enjoy their tasty tears).

Is this genuinely what /you/ think or are you just interpreting on behalf of "mainstream" Australia?


yes and yes
09:43pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4955 posts

I've already mentioned I agree with the views that the militant left has significantly contributed to these problems.


Simply not true. There's no such thing as a militant left in western politics. Unless you call progressive policy, pro science agendas, militant.
I find it strange the right finds glory only in defeating liberals rather than their excitement at implementing their policies.
r/the_donald is a cesspool of humanity full of keks and pepes & going on about liberal tears, bullying anyone who is against them.
09:56pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3149 posts

Good on you for creating your own truth infi, you're excelling at what that article is describing.

This is good: Trump understands what many miss: people don't make decisions based on facts

As is this, Trump's politifact scorecard.

https://s22.postimg.org/3w96w68j5/Trump_Politifact.png

Link: http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

Likewise to you Vash for not being able to accept any views other than your own.

Gotta love politics hey! ;)


09:58pm 30/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23471 posts


Simply not true. There's no such thing as a militant left in western politics. Unless you call progressive policy, pro science agendas, militant.
I find it strange the right finds glory only in defeating liberals rather than their excitement at implementing their policies.
r/the_donald is a cesspool of humanity full of keks and pepes & going on about liberal tears, bullying anyone who is against them.


Getting rid of political correctness and progressive bullying is a conservative policy.
10:16pm 30/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25572 posts
Gotta say that post-truth stuff really strikes a chord with me. I really don't understand how certain people can say certain things and get away with them. Reading some of those Trump things from viper's link... how does a person like that get in charge? Because this person promises them certain things, and it is worth overlooking those terrible things for the hope of them ever happening? One example of something they'd be overlooking; Trump mocking a disabled person because this person said things about him he didn't like. Is that not the worst kind of bullying? What sort of piece of s*** hypocrite would compromise like that? And that's one tiny example out of literally hundreds.

The funny thing infi is that a lot of progressive bullying as you put it occurs not because people break political correctness protocol, but because they're simply incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Once all avenues of discussion have been exhausted and you're walking through your own footmarks there's pretty much nothing to do but say whatadumbc***. Then you start to wonder why is this person suchadumbc*** and you start to notice certain areas they tend to be dumb in. Guess which areas you're dumb in?

Political-correctness being some sort of problem that needs to be quashed by a lying sexual predator AT ALL COSTS is just another strawman in the endless fields of strawmen you have created in a place I like to call Strawmania.
10:57pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3150 posts
11:09pm 30/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23472 posts
Law and order, and the economy. That's nothing new.

Immigration is the big X factor which has caught a lot of leaders off their guard.
11:37pm 30/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4956 posts

i don't see political correctness or progressive bullying on that list. Infact, it seems moral decline, which is something progressive policy tackles, is something alot of people are concerned with.
Interesting that Australia worries about unemployment, when it isn't that high.
And of course, the USA is scared of terrorists.

And check this, what a surprise. Cutting employee benefits just boosts business profit, doesn't lead to increased jobs.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/30/penalty-rate-cuts-would-boost-retailer-profits-rather-than-jobs-study-suggests


11:44pm 30/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2160 posts
i don't see political correctness or progressive bullying on that list. Infact, it seems moral decline, which is something progressive policy tackles, is something alot of people are concerned with.


You really are the gift that keeps on giving. Either that are you are approaching god level troll.

I'm sure the average Chinese person in china is worried about a lack of progressive policy implementation when they talk about "Moral Decline". "Moral Decline" is an archetypal conservative concern.

Viper, this is the thing that I think we have a big problem with. I think there are many people like vash, and people who are much much worse than vash. Convinced utterly, with dubious credibility, of their moral superiority.

the brexit debate, was dominated by morally charged language from the remain side. So was Hillary's campaign.

If you aren't reading that together with Trump's factual inaccuracy I think you are doing it really wrong.

The two other things you need to keep in mind when thinking about "post-truth".
1. the mainstream media is having a crisis of credibility/trust. Google it. Nobody gives a f*** what CNN etc say anymore so this would be your first pit stop in a search for truth. Difficult to establish the facts when your stuck in the liar's paradox.
2. the mainstream media are industrial grade fine purveyors of the fake-news they now rile against.
07:00am 01/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4957 posts
I'd rather this "moral superiority" thinking rampant than a chance of another uprising of a right wing nationalist like hitler.
Sure you can be all about ignoring evidence, then cherry pick a couple policies on the left that may not be based on evidence, but hey, that's the side i choose because it overwhelmingly is pro science, pro evidence, and actually cares about people without money.
Or we can ignore climate science, keep flowing wealth to a small group of elites, not prepare for the coming automation age.. ignore the rights of the LGBTI crew.
No f**** given about asylum seeker conditions.

Then the right, and people like you come out and say, lol, politcal correctness is rampant!@!& moral superiority crowd!@! Give me a break. You're the problem, for deflecting the debate onto political correctness & moral superiority, instead of attacking the policies themselves.

But i suppose climate change is made up by NASA, because that's the kind of "I want to believe" thinking that manifests from the far right.
09:12am 01/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4958 posts
look at this retarded s***

A bunch of bong-sniffing, dole-bludging, moss-munching, glue-guzzling, K-Mart Castros are again vandalising Parliament. And stopping other opinions being heard.
These grubs should be made to pay for their damage and have the book thrown at them.
As the Greens support their action, then the Greens should stump up the money.


LNP turds throwing out all the usual stereotypes instead of attacking the message their sending.
Typical right wing tactics. Attack the character of the person instead of the message. Then throw in some political correctness crying as well.
01:02pm 01/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2161 posts
Nice one vash, you had a brain explosion but you can't quote mine me so you are attacking a hypothetical conservative.

admin's can I have another vash please? I think I've broken this one.

But I hope everyone saw what happened there. Moral condescension tends to evoke very polarized responses. Vash just try and take a moment to think about what you did in response to my post, where I didn't even call you immoral, just not morally superior, and then think about the kind of response your sermonizing might provoke in someone who disagrees you. Then attempt to extrapolate to the election.

I'd rather this "moral superiority" thinking rampant than a chance of another uprising of a right wing nationalist like hitler.

On that note, I'm going to invoke Godwin's law. This conversation is over vash.
01:38pm 01/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4959 posts
Gee really got me there PP. One day you'll get there.
02:08pm 01/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21096 posts
02:47pm 01/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23473 posts
He has explicitly stated he is prepared to fund infrastructure through debt.


This is a very good policy for America, compared to the Fed spraying helicopter money out buying toxic assets - because the American taxpayer actually gets something in return.

America's roads, highways and bridges are crumbling and rusting. But interest rates will rise, so now is the time to fix if you can.
02:49pm 01/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3152 posts

I think the Chinese concern for moral decline is somewhat different to our version, given that the value of life there is so low people literally walk around people dying in the street. Gender fluidity might be a bit further down their list!

Yeah I agree the left v right 'moral fracture' is a key factor in this thing, and the backlash against the militant left's rabid holier than thou admonishing is legit. Along with the deepening anti-establishment sentiment and the disadvantages of globalism that a bunch of people are experiencing. It's a strange thing though, as the surveys show that people don't disagree on the progressive issues, especially the majority in the US. They voted positively down ballot on a bunch of those issues.

Rejection of main stream media is a misnomer as more often than not the people who so loudly champion that rejection get their news from 'alternative news' sources that are actually just fake news. This is a yuuuuge issue, the information wars will be a big thing.

Trump's infrastructure plan would be great if it wasn't basically a privatisation scam. It's interesting to me that a lot of the private sector industries in the US are essentially big government funded corporate welfare states, their military procurement industry is great example, which are mostly driven by anti-social/welfare Republicans.

First, Trump’s plan is not really an infrastructure plan. It’s a tax-cut plan for utility-industry and construction-sector investors, and a massive corporate welfare plan for contractors. The Trump plan doesn’t directly fund new roads, bridges, water systems or airports, as did Hillary Clinton’s 2016 infrastructure proposal. Instead, Trump’s plan provides tax breaks to private-sector investors who back profitable construction projects. These projects (such as electrical grid modernization or energy pipeline expansion) might already be planned or even underway. There’s no requirement that the tax breaks be used for incremental or otherwise expanded construction efforts; they could all go just to fatten the pockets of investors in previously planned projects.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-big-infrastructure-plan-its-a-trap/2016/11/18/5b1d109c-adae-11e6-8b45-f8e493f06fcd_story.html?utm_term=.b9dc23826e50
04:59pm 01/12/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6167 posts
haha I have to say PPete I'm impressed you kept discussions with him that long, I don't know how you persevered.

Vash you are very entertaining i had the popcorn out soaking up the nuggets of wonderment.
05:14pm 01/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2162 posts
I think the Chinese concern for moral decline is somewhat different to our version, given that the value of life there is so low people literally walk around people dying in the street. Gender fluidity might be a bit further down their list!


If moral decline in China doesn't mean something like "traditional values are being eroded by modern decadence" I will be *extremely* surprised. The point I was making was vash was so wrapped up in his own moral code he said more of my moral code is the answer to that.

Yeah I agree the left v right 'moral fracture' is a key factor in this thing, and the backlash against the militant left's rabid holier than thou admonishing is legit. Along with the deepening anti-establishment sentiment and the disadvantages of globalism that a bunch of people are experiencing. It's a strange thing though, as the surveys show that people don't disagree on the progressive issues, especially the majority in the US. They voted positively down ballot on a bunch of those issues.


Not that strange though when you think about it, if everyone is more or less in agreement, the holier than thou attitude is likely to have a more pronounced effect. Taking gay marriage as an example, I know that it hurt Hillary to decry people who are against it, because she was until quite recently. Same with Obama. Further I think it hurt her with people who are for gay marriage. Like the smoker who just quit, but haaates cigarettes.

Rejection of main stream media is a misnomer as more often than not the people who so loudly champion that rejection get their news from 'alternative news' sources that are actually just fake news. This is a yuuuuge issue, the information wars will be a big thing.


Yeah, I'm skeptical about that, Gallup has been tracking it a while now, and while in the wake of trump I fully appreciate the irony of referring to polls, I don't really see an alternative. It appears to be tanking to me.

anecdotally didn't jeff zucker say something like "if we made a mistake it was we gave trump too much air time". There is an unmistakable wiff of elitism in there. The implication is the unwashed masses if exposed won't be able to control themselves.

As I said earlier I don't claim to have a full explanation or even fully understand what happened.

But I am confident that the post-truth stuff is missing the mark. If only because Trump was so obviously inconsistent throughout the campaign, the idea people have been duped strikes me as implausible on its face. I remain to be convinced people are voting on the strength of his policies. I can't remember where I read it but his supporters appear to be taking him seriously, but not literally. So then the question becomes what are they taking seriously about him?

The more plausible explanation is there are rational reasons (perhaps even guided from false assumptions but equally maybe not) I, and the liberal media at least don't properly understand. The Guardian really don't get it. At all. I haven't read a persuasive article on trump there yet. large amounts of moral hectoring though.

France's upcoming election will be another bellwether.


This is the concern for me. If Le Penn wins and a "frexit" happens I think it is curtains for the EU.

The thing that has worried me about Trump (and I lump the rise of Jeremy Corbyn (its a talk for another day but what he is doing to UK labour is reprehensible) and Bernie Sanders squarely in that box) and Brexit is the distinct "watch it all burn" feeling I get from it all. FWIW I think Hillary really was the most qualified person to have ever run for the job. I think she would have been a good president. But she was also as a result probably the most establishment candidate ever to have run (and consider her embrace of identity politics in that for a second). That's the truth the post-truth talk isn't dealing with. Considering everything else irrelevant is different from believing obvious lies.

Anywho, thanks for the articles. Good chat.
08:24pm 01/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23475 posts
And Geert Wilders in Netherlands.
09:06pm 01/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4960 posts
Hilary maybe qualified, but that doesn't mean she would be a good president.
Bernie would have made America great again thats for sure.
11:04pm 01/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38635 posts
the brexit debate, was dominated by morally charged language from the remain side.
Hmm. Here's the actual voting guide I have here from the Brexit vote. I don't know how to quantify the moral charginess of these positions but I kinda think they're roughly equivalent.

FWIW from the point of view of someone living in London I don't think there was morally charged language from the Remainers, but maybe it was different outside of the city.
02:43am 02/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3153 posts

Yeah perhaps the case for China, they have a real interesting dilemma with the growing middle class and trying to transition into a consumer economy whilst being an oppressive authoritarian state. I don't know much about it but the disregard for human life and common decency I've seen news of there is horrific.

I think what you're talking about there Pete is essentially the anti-establishment / status quo vibe. When you look at the obscene wealth inequality it's not really that surprising, that's what Bernie tapped into as well. One could almost think we're heading towards revolution territory, and it will be televised!

I think post-truth covers all of that in a way, as it's essentially about making decisions on emotion rather than agreed fact, or moreover making your own facts within your own worldview (what is an agreed fact or objective truth?) - it's firmly into philosophy territory but I've had conversations with pro Brexit and Trump people who flat reject objective truth like that.

It will be deeply depressing if the EU collapses. I like this Noah chap that Trog mentioned, and I agree with him that one of the biggest threats of our age now, apart from climate change, is another great power war: http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.co.za/2016/11/the-real-danger.html

Jeez louise, I don't know what coverage you were watching then Trog. The leavers were tarnished with a pretty hefty bigot/racist/xenophobic or stupid brush from superior remaininers by most accounts. The overall coverage and national discussion was pretty bad I thought, similar to the US election but it didn't descend quite as badly as that did. I have friends that are leavers and remainers, and it's all been rather horrible and bitter tbh.

One thing to remember is that London really isn't very representative of the rest of the UK at all!

Interesting thoughts from Bernie.


05:06am 02/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38637 posts
Jeez louise, I don't know what coverage you were watching then Trog. The leavers were tarnished with a pretty hefty bigot/racist/xenophobic or stupid brush from superior remaininers by most accounts. The overall coverage and national discussion was pretty bad I thought, similar to the US election but it didn't descend quite as badly as that did. I have friends that are leavers and remainers, and it's all been rather horrible and bitter tbh.
I don't have a TV and I only read the occasional thing on the BBC about it. I voted Remain but never felt too emotionally invested in the outcome as I don't plan to be here forever, so I didn't follow it too closely.

When you say "by most accounts" though, it sounds like you're talking about stuff you heard, rather than stuff you witnessed...?
05:35am 02/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3154 posts
Yeah I am totes emotionally invested in Brexit, I lived in London for 10 years and it's like my 2nd home (I'm a British citizen, dual with Aus), my business and a lot of friends / pseudo family are there. I voted remain (by post from Cape Town) and am in favour of the EU*. I consumed pretty much all the coverage available across multiple mainstream and alternative media outlets, not to mention partaking in many a bitter debate with various friends and colleagues.

I think there were a couple of strong themes that were established in the national discourse, the first being that negative reaction to immigration must be racist/xenophobic, and the second being the stupid working class not fully understanding the impact of a Brexit yet voting for it anyway - actually this might be best epitomised by Gove's infamous 'the British people are sick of experts' quote. Both of these themes are turning out to be far more complicated when trying to ascertain the real reasons for the result.

*But then I'm in favour of a single world government, or rather a Star Trek style future of humanity, this is one of my favourite videos that sums up a lot of my world view:

05:56am 02/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38638 posts
I consumed pretty much all the coverage available across multiple mainstream and alternative media outlets, not to mention partaking in many a bitter debate with various friends and colleagues.
Yeh, it's pretty easy to imagine you getting exposed to more extreme viewpoints more commonly. I had many discussions with London-based friends (mostly imports but a few actual British people, of which as far as I can tell there are barely any in London) and they were all pretty casual. I personally think my experience embodies the typical person who lives in London; they weren't going to be online reading vitriol from Leave f***wits and abusing them, because they genuinely didn't think it was likely.
Both of these themes are turning out to be far more complicated when trying to ascertain the real reasons for the result.
I subscribe to Agent K's theory: "People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Markets bucked up here today on the news that the UK might start pay for access to the EU single market. I thought this was f*****g hilarious.
06:37am 02/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2163 posts
The economics must be playing some role, I accept that. But I'm not sure what and I don't think it is the driving force. If I had to place it, I would say it is exacerbating cultural concerns. (for example, Hillary roped in Jay Z and Katy Perry. I think that was a huge mistake, and a ham fisted way to appeal to the common person. The issue was they all go on to talk about privilege. The multi-millionaires chastising ordinary people about their "privilege".) If income inequality is really driving it, I think you need to explain both Hollende and Corbyn's terrible polling numbers. I think the answer lies in cultural concerns, which is why I'm skeptical on Bernie being a better option than Hillary. The first 15 minutes of the second debate trump is regarded to have won (I disagree, I thought it was a mess, but its seems most folks thought he won). All he did was say to hillary if ya coulda, ya woulda. That applies a fortiori to Bernie. Add to that his membership of the communist party when he was a uni student. That's all she wrote folks. TBH I think Joe Biden would have been the best bet. He is able to channel that earthy wisdom speak. I think his gaffe prone nature may have actually been an asset this time around. Plus he is from Scranton. Plus he is Obama's VP and Obama's approval is pretty good.

I think post-truth covers all of that in a way, as it's essentially about making decisions on emotion rather than agreed fact, or moreover making your own facts within your own worldview (what is an agreed fact or objective truth?) - it's firmly into philosophy territory but I've had conversations with pro Brexit and Trump people who flat reject objective truth like that.


I really don't think this is accurate. What part of Hillary is an institutional player is not an objective truth?

When you look at the obscene wealth inequality it's not really that surprising, that's what Bernie tapped into as well. One could almost think we're heading towards revolution territory, and it will be televised!


I also reject the wealth inequality argument. Firstly, when we talk of post truth this talk of the 1% is right at the top of my list.

Income distribution is skewed in the US, but lets not mince words they narrowly avoided a depression. Wage growth was always going to take a little while to get going when you account for the inflationary effect of trillion's of dollars of bonds being issued. Wage growth has been picking up this year with Obama using standard economic techniques. You'd also need to explain the growth of something similar here where income distribution is much more equitable.

The other big thing that makes no sense from a income distribution point is that people on the higher end of the curve voted for Trump (ie the people it is skewed in favour of), while people on the lower end voted for Hillary.

It's also interesting that China's economy is going pretty well, and they are having concerns about Moral Decline.

Boris Johnson spoke at length about not having to leave the common market. I think most people for the most part accept that open economies produce more wealth for more people. I'm also pretty confident people accept that manufacturing has gone to Asia and it isn't coming back. The only way to compete with Asia is through productivity gains which tend to eliminate the need for labour.

the other reason I think the neo-liberal argument is missing the point, is the presence of the immigration confounding variable. The EU is a neo-liberal project. It is working for the free movement of capital and labour.

So free trade and free movement of people tend to stalk the land together, and as such I think are easily conflated or ignored in favour of the other.

Immigration has been a continuous theme in both trumps and the brexit rhetoric. and as you point out yourself, seems to be trog's experience and it was certainly mine, London is an English city by pure force of geography. It is radically different in terms of culture from the rest of the country.

So while it is true most of its money is generated through free trade (and thus may explain the brexit vote), it is also true that the population of london, by and large hold different values altered by high immigration.(which probably also explains the brexit vote, a bunch of immigrants aren't likely to vote to kick themselves out). *edit* put another way, London achieved its integration of immigrants (which it does very well in my view) at the expense of culturally isolating itself from the rest of the country, that doesn't lend itself to a stable outcome.

It shouldn't need to be stated, but I am a pro-immigration guy, because I see it as a net benefit, but there is a research into what it does to social cohesion. This body of research is almost never referred to in the mainstream media, and never mentioned by labor or the greens or the libs really.

So it does not follow, that the "post-truth" we are talking about is subjective and emotional. I think we are talking about objective truths (largely) unacknowledged by the media, academic and political classes.

When you look at Hollende's approval, what do you propose is killing it? He is a left wing socialist, his economic policies should be a workers paradise, but he enjoys an approval rating of about 4%. Paris and Nice happened on his tenure though.

here is another example of manipulation of facts which don't fit into post truth well. It's the project so I accept it's not "news" per se, but Carrie Bickmore and Waleed Aly have both gotten golden logies so their mainstream appeal is undeniable.

The project had a 10 minute discussion showing this photo complete with Carrie crying, saying it could be her son. And it's a heartbreaking image to be sure.
http://static.reuters.com/resources/media/global/assets/images/20150903/20150902_163244720150903003956.jpg

But so is this one and they have never shown it.
https://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Nice-Attack-Casulaty-Doll-Reuters.jpg

I think we both know why. Once elicits sympathy for Muslims, the other not so much. One was killed in a tragic accident, the other was murdered celebrating the anniversary of "liberte, egalite, fraternite". Ironically enough the rest of that is "ou la mort".

Whether you like it or not, people, not unjustifiably, are connecting the two (as in mass middle-eastern immigration and a rise in terror acts) and most of the mainstream media and nearly all left wing politicians refuse to acknowledged it. Obama won't use the word Islamic terrorism.

tell me this doesn't ring at least a little true:
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder231/65533231.jpg

When they released the Orlando 911 calls, they edited out the dudes pledge to islamic state. Why? To what end? To spare the feelings of Muslims? Just after one perpetrated the worst mass shooting in US history? In an attempt to conceal what everyone already knew anyway?
If that is not a public relations catastrophe, it'll do till one turns up. Contrast it with the coverage dylan roof gets for example. Slightly less worried about upsetting/marginalising southern white Americans with that guy aren't we?

My point is that immigration requires culture shock. It is unavoidable, and when you point it out the left especially have that racism charge loaded on a hair trigger. either that or they plain refuse to have the conversation (because you're racist). and I think this refusal to acknowledge it or to call people who do racist, is a primary driving force in what we are seeing.

I would refer you again to the SPLC calling Maajid Nawaz and anti Muslim extremist.

Meanwhile here is a guardian piece comparing young white men voting for Trump (exercising their democratic constitutionally enshrined right) to young Muslim men traveling to Raqqa to kill people. Makes no mention that Trump improved the republican black vote, and Hispanic vote. Funny that.
09:26am 02/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2164 posts
10:04am 02/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4961 posts
holy wall of text...write a blog or something.

In other news, this martin big pharma guy, what a nice chap.
Another example of neoliberalist madness. Without regulations on medicine prices, people die. Is that the kind of society we want to live in?
If you cant afford it, too bad.
11:44am 02/12/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6168 posts
My point is that immigration requires culture shock. It is unavoidable, and when you point it out the left especially have that racism charge loaded on a hair trigger. either that or they plain refuse to have the conversation (because you're racist). and I think this refusal to acknowledge it or to call people who do racist, is a primary driving force in what we are seeing.

Agreed, calm thorough discussion is required looking for the causes not the symptoms, i think some are starting to open up to discussions but it took electing Trump to get there.
Lets hope productive discussions can be had and i agree with Bernie Sanders it's up to the people to demand better by the media/news outlets like not watching s*** like the project.
12:53pm 02/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7533 posts
I thinks its time for the aliens to take us over
08:21pm 02/12/16 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14864 posts
So, bets on what greens will agree to next despite it hurting their voter base?
08:13am 03/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23476 posts
greens love higher taxes
12:03pm 03/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4964 posts

We'll need higher taxes on business for this
http://www.businessinsider.com/stephen-hawking-ai-automation-middle-class-jobs-most-dangerous-moment-humanity-2016-12?r=UK&IR=T

Stephen Hawking: Automation and AI is going to decimate middle class jobs


This is way different to the industrial / digital age.


03:04pm 03/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38640 posts
yes and yes
Am I understanding right? You think it's OK for people to discriminate against other people based on something arbitrary like their sexual orientation? And it's OK for people to tolerate and/or even spread these attitudes in our schools?
11:02pm 03/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23477 posts
Am I understanding right? You think it's OK for people to discriminate against other people based on something arbitrary like their sexual orientation? And it's OK for people to tolerate and/or even spread these attitudes in our schools?


I specifically said it is not ok to bully and that is what the Safe Schools program should promote - living in society requires courtesy and respect. that being said there is no requirement to indulge people's identifications and there is no requirement to be friends or associate with people one does not want to. We are all free.

I identify as an attack helicopter but I don't expect people to refer to me as an attack helicopter.
11:46pm 03/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12523 posts
you sound like Rowan Dean* there Attack Helicopter, and i pay respects to the traditional copyright holders of your early prototypes models.

Mark Latham, Ross Cameron & Rowan Dean* will front yet another Political commentary show on SKY News, Outsiders on Sunday mornings.






This show will be so far Right that a cardboard cut-out of Ayn Rand will be the token Lefty on the Panel.

Vash I challenge you to watch this show...
with Triggers disabled and without a Safe Space.

Faceman Shrugged.

01:31am 04/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25573 posts
I specifically said it is not ok to bully and that is what the Safe Schools program should promote
Expect you say things a lot and you're a bit of a dishonest person and it's hard to know whether you actually mean it or not.

You've made a fair few sarcastic and belittling comments in regards to trans-people in this thread and even posted an image suggesting you wouldn't hire them or at the most hide them somewhere in the back. If a trans-person happened to read that how do you think it would make them feel? You say you're against bullying and people should be courteous in the exact same thread where you have displayed the antithesis of that very behaviour.

edit: even this

I identify as an attack helicopter but I don't expect people to refer to me as an attack helicopter.


Is a dumb as s*** comment equivelent to the we shouldn't allow gay marriage because then people would marry their dogs. In the very post where you try and suggest bullying is bad and we should be courteous.
05:24pm 04/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38641 posts
Apropos of nothing, I wish there was a browser extension that ran everything people typed through a logical fallacy tester so they could check it before they hit submit; I wonder if machine learning could do that

In other news, Dan Rather made this great post about "post-truth" where he incredibly politely points out how reality works. I thought of [edit: typo] it when I again tried and failed to reply to infi's post but it touches on deconstruction of the term "liberal elites" that seems to be a popular term of condescension.
08:58pm 04/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23478 posts
You've made a fair few sarcastic and belittling comments in regards to trans-people in this thread and even posted an image suggesting you wouldn't hire them or at the most hide them somewhere in the back. If a trans-person happened to read that how do you think it would make them feel? You say you're against bullying and people should be courteous in the exact same thread where you have displayed the antithesis of that very behaviour.


People are free to do whatever they want (short of physically harming others), but they are not entitled to expect OTHER people to indulge their personal identity fantasies. (How DARE you quesiton my identity as an attack helicopter.) I don't care if you are trans or a Brony or a Democrat - your money is the same colour and if you talk nice to me I'll talk nice to you.

When groups begin to advocate entitled behaviour or positive discrimination you can be damn sure I will not be so polite. Just get on with your damn life and stop making a show about it.

trog: the problem with Dan Rather's article is that he reduces every public policy question to relying in experts - however experts f*** up all the time, experts are not elected and have no accountability, experts have agendas of their own which include government funding. If you have a blind reliance in experts you will also then have a blind reliance in a socialist autocratic government controlled by a set of administrators you trust 100%.

Furthermore, many areas of public policy relate to society's mores and morality. "Experts" in these situations just tout their own agenda - they are advocates.

Voters can get a range of views and make up their own minds based on their own priorities instead of sub-contracting the responsibilities of citizenship and governance to experts. You would be a damn fool to ignore a doctor about your medical condition - but about public policy issues, their opinion is just the same as everyone else's . Dan Rather sounds like a typical plutocrat - exactly what constitutional democracies are intended to prevent.
09:19pm 04/12/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16574 posts
trog: the problem with Dan Rather's article is that he reduces every public policy question to relying in experts - however experts f*** up all the time, experts are not elected and have no accountability, experts have agendas of their own which include government funding. If you have a blind reliance in experts you will also then have a blind reliance in a socialist autocratic government controlled by a set of administrators you trust 100%.

This is a silly remark. Experts are sometimes wrong, because humans, but expert opinion (by f*****g definition) should be highly regarded. You should always ask yourself if a person giving you advice on any matter is actually qualified to do so. The nightmare of Government is actually unqualified persons providing poor advice to naive politicians.

What a completely loopy comment all round. Well done once again.
10:25pm 04/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23479 posts

This is a silly remark. Experts are sometimes wrong, because humans, but expert opinion (by f*****g definition) should be highly regarded. You should always ask yourself if a person giving you advice on any matter is actually qualified to do so. The nightmare of Government is actually unqualified persons providing poor advice to naive politicians.

What a completely loopy comment all round. Well done once again.


so to use a local example. in 1995 Wayne Goss went to an election with the platform of the "Koala Highway". It was probably a good idea for urban planning but Goss lost a lot of seats in the affected area and ultimately the election after the Mundingburra by-election in 1996.

So is the Koala Highway the kind of thing that urban planner bureaucrats should be given autocratic power over? In a democracy, government is accountable to the people.

It's fine taking advice from urban planners (experts) but at the end of the day, the people decide the future of their electorate. Blindly accepting the advice of bureaucrats could transform your community into something never foreseen.

There is a clear distinction between taking the advice and making the decision.
11:13pm 04/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4965 posts
http://i.imgur.com/DiNU60U.jpg

Posted around Melbourne uni. Obviously to try to "trigger" people.. If its real though :/
12:42am 05/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25574 posts
Once upon a time an expert was wrong. Because of this we should now disregard the opinion of all experts and consider them being an expert a negative because an expert may be wrong again.

Now, since we're disregarding the opinion of experts, whose opinion are we regarding? Ourselves I guess. Mighty noble and all, but running an entire country is kind of complicated and there is no one person out there including you (when I say you I am referring to me, the correct answer, is you) that has all the know-how to do so. How to fix this conundrum.

I know. I will consider the opinion of experts! Of course I just won't blindly listen to the first one I hear from, but will listen to a few and form an opinion from that. The reason I do this is because it is indeed possible for them to have their own vested interests, their own hidden agendas. Fortunately I know how think critically and when processing this new information will be able to have some idea how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Would really suck if I didn't know how to critically think. Then I'd pretty much be forced to rely on my gut instinct. On what I think sounds right and best melds with my own world view. People'd think I'm a real dummy.
02:59am 05/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21097 posts
so to use a local example. in 1995 Wayne Goss went to an election with the platform of the "Koala Highway". It was probably a good idea for urban planning but Goss lost a lot of seats in the affected area and ultimately the election after the Mundingburra by-election in 1996.

So is the Koala Highway the kind of thing that urban planner bureaucrats should be given autocratic power over? In a democracy, government is accountable to the people.

It's fine taking advice from urban planners (experts) but at the end of the day, the people decide the future of their electorate. Blindly accepting the advice of bureaucrats could transform your community into something never foreseen.

There is a clear distinction between taking the advice and making the decision.


as a result of "letting the people decide the future of their electorate" koalas are pretty much f***ed, there is no saving them now

there is certain s*** like this that the people shouldn't be allowed to decided because they will only look out for their best interest in this case the potential to sell off their land to property developers.

this is pretty much liberal party MO - f*** the environment, money
09:38am 05/12/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1036 posts
Actual experts are a valuable resource. Just need to be careful to ensure that before giving them the opinion forming weight of "expert" that they actually *are* an expert about the topic.

For example, naturopaths might study for 6 years at university or something but I'm sorry that doesn't make them an expert at s*** to do with medicine. A chiropractor might have a good understanding of human anatomy, especially the skeletal system, but again doesn't mean they have a clue about actual medical issues despite any claims to the contrary.

11:06am 05/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12524 posts
Whores make the best Experts
or is it Experts make the best Whores ?

LOL Italy has decided The EU is deaderer than a dead Dingo's donger.
Globalism has become Toxic to the Electorate.

there is certain s*** like this that the people shouldn't be allowed to decide


Democracy never gets it wrong.
There is not one time in all of the history of legitimate Democracies where the People voted the wrong way. Its impossible.

Democracy is above all Experts.


last edited by FaceMan at 13:36:51 05/Dec/16
01:33pm 05/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4967 posts
Haha faceman.. Maybe Germany voting in Hitler got it wrong?
Democracy is rigged, even your Trumpites said it, yet they still won... so is it rigged or not? Or only when your side doesnt win?
01:38pm 05/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12525 posts
Germany voting for Hitler was the right thing to do at the time and Germany became a Superpower. Who wouldnt vote for that ?
Make Germany Great Again, and he did.

As long as The Peoples votes are not interfered with Democracy isnt rigged.
The Media is rigged, Globalism is rigged, Crony Capitalism is rigged,
Political Partys are rigged, Democracy is the only thing they cant rig.
02:09pm 05/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4968 posts
Aren't you forgetting about a certain genocide during that period, Faceman?

Democracy is manipulated via the media, and has been for decades. If you were a rich businessman, and owner of multiple businesses, how would you control the flow of information & policy, to benefit your business? You'd donate to political parties, buy up media companies, and have meetings with politicians behind the scenes, secure deals.

This is why Unions were created, so people actually had a chance at spreading a message against the rich business owners, and to the people. But guess what happened? The media now has people believing Unions are evil, and unions are now on the decline, as well as wage growth.
Profit & productivity are on the rise, wage growth on the decline. Why is that?
02:29pm 05/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21098 posts

the problem is that unions actually are total d**** a lot of the time, it isn't all just media lies

ie. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/cfmeu-boss-michael-ravbar-to-be-served-federal-court-summons-over-crane-company-claims/news-story/69da41e4be2eebbb03dacbcce3f24939

LABOR powerbroker and CFMEU state secretary ­Michael Ravbar allegedly led a vindictive campaign against a non-unionised crane company and disrupted a $1.5 billion project in the process.

The Courier-Mail can ­reveal Mr Ravbar will be served a Federal Court summons amid claims he was behind relentless attacks against a Queensland company that refused to sign an enterprise bargaining agreement modelled on ones used by the union.


federal court summons


02:33pm 05/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4969 posts
No doubt there is corruption in Unions, but the thing that's going on at the moment is the rampant corruption within business & government, and they don't have any interest in tackling corruption within, such as royal commissions into banks, or a Federal ICAC.
Now we've had a union royal commission, time to see what's going on with the banks & LNP Federal government?
02:50pm 05/12/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1037 posts
Thought experiment using Faceman's utopia of unrestricted democracy:

There are 100 people. There is a "Garden of Eden" or some other prize that people want. They might be able to share it and live good lives together or maybe there's only enough of it to support a few people.

The 100 people have a vote to decide if the group should kill/expel/whatever a group of 49 of those people so that the remainder have can have more of that prize to themselves. The 51 people decide "yeah, more for me!" and vote to evict/kill/whatever the other 49.

There are now 51 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 26 of them vote to kick out the other 25.

There are now 26 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 14 of them vote to kick out the other 12.

There are now 14 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 8 of them vote to kick out the other 6.

There are now 8 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 5 of them vote to kick out the other 3.

There are now 5 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 3 of them vote to kick out the other 2.

There are now 3 people. They decide the prize isn't big enough for so many people. 2 of them vote to kick out the other 1.

There are now 2 people. There's no way to get a majority so they're forced to share the prize (I guess until they eat the wrong apple and some higher power kicks them both out).

Obviously that's an example taken to the extremes.

But it shows that a simple democracy is *not* a good idea. Better is a system that holds some rights of the individual as inviolate and saves the rest for democratic decision.
04:19pm 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38642 posts
(I guess until they eat the wrong apple and some higher power kicks them both out).
ahahah
Obviously that's an example taken to the extremes.
I dunno how extreme it is - it looks like a pretty common prisoner's dilemma
Better is a system that holds some rights of the individual as inviolate and saves the rest for democratic decision.
Literally exactly the model of the Constitution of the United States which Australian conservatives love to hold up as the shining beacon of perfection, right up until the point that it conflicts with their narrative
09:20pm 05/12/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6169 posts
uh oh new ground for me Vash, I agree with your point there about corruption in the media steering democracy.
I have no doubt corruption exists everywhere we need to be open to everything we see and hear and think for ourselves.
Which is why i have found peoples reaction to the election so funny. Every politician lies to get in and hardly delivers 50% of their promises.
Trump said a lot of s*** no doubt and still does but I believe he wants to focus on America and it's people(those already there) and attempt to get it back on it's feet.
Even tho it's not my country i respect that and wish Australia did the same.

I think a big issue these days people seem to pick a side and blindly believe and support that side.

I don't support any side 100% or usually even 70% but you need to pick a side that appears to support your most important concerns, I want people to have freedom but want those oppressing other peoples freedoms to be crushed, including people attempting to force others into or out of the Muslim faith even though i disagree with its ideology in general, at the end of the day if they are not forcing others into it and disrespecting those who have taken them in and supporting them i have no problem. Do what you want as long as you aren't hurting or abusing others.

Burning the countries flag should be dealt with harshly such as a 5-10 year prison sentence.
Again I'm a kiwi but cannot believe how disrespectful and disgusting it is for anyone to burn Australia's flag or the US etc to the men and women who have fought for their country and for the people, people who have let them into their country, supporting them financially and then getting further demands. aaaarrrgh!

Ultimately I hate bullies and ungrateful people of any kind, whether at school, at work, on the street or in your family.
I was never bullied myself but always got angry and usually stepped in when i saw it happening to others.
09:24pm 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38643 posts
People are free to do whatever they want (short of physically harming others), but they are not entitled to expect OTHER people to indulge their personal identity fantasies. (How DARE you quesiton my identity as an attack helicopter.) I don't care if you are trans or a Brony or a Democrat - your money is the same colour and if you talk nice to me I'll talk nice to you.
The dismissive and sneeringly condensing way you talk about the sexual orientation of others is kind of weird, especially as I genuinely don't think you have any problems with homosexuals. But your flippant dismissal of it being a choice looks identical to typical refusal to acknowledge that sexuality is not a choice. What right do you have to tell people how their sexuality works? What right do you have to tell people that they can't pick and choose? What line is too weird to cross?

I know, I know, tax dollars enabling them. But tax dollars occasionally /need/ to support minorities - even when some of those minorities are genuine f***wits! That is the occasional price of ensuring actual liberty for everyone, especially in times of social change. And like it or not society has changed in the last couple of decades; we might as well just get used to it and move on. AND, it's only going to get worse as technology gets better. Imagine a world in which gender fluidity is ultimate; where people can take a pill and then a few days later they've flipped sexes?! It's sci fi now but it seems totally inevitable to me.

(I know you don't care much about religion but I bet if you started talking to other people in your political circles about dropping similar taxpayer funded protection for religious groups many of them would lose their s***. If you want to worry about taxpayer-funded protection rackets I feel like organised religion would be a much more productive low-hanging delicious fruity target. It is hard for me to take "conservative" outrage seriously about this kind of thing when they demonstrate a completely different level of tolerance for their own pet moral causes. )
When groups begin to advocate entitled behaviour or positive discrimination you can be damn sure I will not be so polite. Just get on with your damn life and stop making a show about it.
[below is copied and pasted from one of my drafts to your earlier post because it seems appropriate here]

This almost makes me wish the Internet had existed back when women were trying to get the vote, or when we were trying to abolish slavery, or when we were trying to decouple religion from government, and those other times where minorities had to fight for their civil liberties, just so we could look back on the comments from "Joe Average" to find out how desperately they tried to rationalise why they didn't want disadvantaged group X to get whatever advantage it was perceived they were getting.

Except obviously that would be terrible beyond words.
trog: the problem with Dan Rather's article is that he reduces every public policy question to relying in experts - however experts f*** up all the time, experts are not elected and have no accountability, experts have agendas of their own which include government funding. If you have a blind reliance in experts you will also then have a blind reliance in a socialist autocratic government controlled by a set of administrators you trust 100%.
This is just another slippery slope; noone is saying you should have a "blind reliance on experts". The vast majority of scientists will cheerfully admit the limitations of their knowledge, unlike basically every politician, out of some misguided (but obviously successful) instinct that blathering on about s*** you know nothing about from the gut is a more appropriate substitute.

But there are some things that are just not up for debate in the scientific realm. Deferring to scientific opinion is, because of attitudes like this, being seen as some sort of capitulation to these "west coast liberal elites", instead of what it actually is - making decisions based on informed opinion and evidence. That is, to me at least, Dan Rather's point, and any attempt to argue otherwise is just dissembling as part of the War on Knowledge.

You are worried about people pushing agendas. The War on Knowledge is simply the best vehicle for unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals. We're in a period of literally unprecedented peace, wealth and health for most of the planet, largely because we as a species have embraced the power of science. People are very happy to pretend experts aren't a thing while they're cramming their opinions into a computer they carry in their pocket that is part of a worldwide communications network.
Furthermore, many areas of public policy relate to society's mores and morality. "Experts" in these situations just tout their own agenda - they are advocates.
True "experts" (now I'm doing it! although not sarcastically, illustratively) in the social sciences do not base their comments on an agenda. I'd say it's rare that they even give a s***; they are just studying it. Cherry picking a handful of studies on gender issues that are arguably stupid doesn't invalidate the entire scientific establishment.

But some experts are actually experts because they've spent half their life (or more) learning what they know about a subject. It is quite possible that if they have an agenda, it is based on their knowledge and experience (see: previously referenced lead in gasoline), and not (for example) some horrible "liberal elite" plot to destroy businesses or "morality" because of some sense of misguided hippy ideals.
09:33pm 05/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25576 posts
Burning the countries flag should be dealt with harshly such as a 5-10 year prison sentence.
Now if I could just stop you for a second. Is this a thing you have just typed on an internet forum in an exasperated state of nationalism or is it something you actually believe? If you had a 5-10 year prison sentence yes/no button in front of you and an unlimited amount of time to think about it, what would you push?

Don't you find it kind of ironic how you will lament people of muslim faith pushing their religion onto others when you're so eager to push your nationalism on people? I've given you the out to say you were just exaggerating and I know you'll take it, but you've suggested a life ruining prison term for someone burning a piece of cloth with some patterns on it. That's insane and dumb.
10:19pm 05/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38644 posts
10:45pm 05/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4972 posts
There's a question on politicalcompass that covers it.. I think you lot should jump on and do it, see where you stand.
"No one chooses his or her country of birth, so it's foolish to be proud of it."
Agree/Disagree etc.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
11:14pm 05/12/16 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1831 posts
There's a question on politicalcompass that covers it.. I think you lot should jump on and do it, see where you stand.
"No one chooses his or her country of birth, so it's foolish to be proud of it."
Agree/Disagree etc.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test


Never actually done one of those before, but wasn't really surprised by the results:

Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -4.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Apparently I'm not too far off Ghandi :P
12:14am 06/12/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6170 posts
fpot: You're right i haven't spent time thinking about it but surely some form of punishment is warranted, it isn't just a flag it represents the country and the people that fought for it
I don't believe you can set a hard and fast rule for anything, incidents should be allowed consideration in their own individual cercumstances.
I believe the law should be a guidline providing the power of common sense to those enforcing a safe environment to the people rather than a hard and fast set of rules based on technicalities.

While i believe harsh punishment for burning the flag is fair I'm not blind to the fact that i may be alone in my thinking and thus completely wrong or even delusional. I am open to discussion and thoughts on the matter as I'm sure most of us are, I guess the trouble with posting online is thoughts, points and statements of discussion come across as hard stances and statements of facts.


Vash i took the test you posted. I'm a little surprised i'm that far left i thought I'd be a bit more central, interesting thanks for the link.

Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.59
03:15am 06/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25579 posts
surely some form of punishment is warranted
Public nuisance sounds about right.
03:18am 06/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38647 posts
Vash i took the test you posted. I'm a little surprised i'm that far left i thought I'd be a bit more central
heh pretty sure this is the most common response for things like that. I do wonder if there is a way to test the bias in the questions a little more effectively to try to neutralise any effect there
Public nuisance sounds about right.
What if I'm burning the flag in the privacy of my own home?!

I think it's a d*** move to burn the flag but I think it's much much much more important to have the liberty to do so.
03:47am 06/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4975 posts

Looks like you're in the leftie lib camp, f**les ;) pretty much dead on Nicola Sturgeon.




Amazon just started the death of the supermarket checkout. Once all supermarkets adopt this kind of system, think of the job losses there, which were already beginning to disappear with self checkout.
Pretty soon there wont even be shelf packers, robotics can completely automate the entire food supply chain from farm/factory to automated trucks, to automated shelf packers.
Might only need a couple employees per supermarket.
No truck drivers
No taxis

I wonder what solution free market lovers would come up for this.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/21/408234543/will-your-job-be-done-by-a-machine


06:35am 06/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2166 posts
True "experts" (now I'm doing it! although not sarcastically, illustratively) in the social sciences do not base their comments on an agenda. I'd say it's rare that they even give a s***; they are just studying it. Cherry picking a handful of studies on gender issues that are arguably stupid doesn't invalidate the entire scientific establishment.

But some experts are actually experts because they've spent half their life (or more) learning what they know about a subject. It is quite possible that if they have an agenda, it is based on their knowledge and experience (see: previously referenced lead in gasoline), and not (for example) some horrible "liberal elite" plot to destroy businesses or "morality" because of some sense of misguided hippy ideals.


Except that just is not true Trog. The concept that gender, and even biological sex are "social constructs" is widely accepted in gender theory and has purchase in the broader social sciences.

Again I'd invite you to look at real peer review. But also google replication crisis in psychology. Those true experts live in Scotland I guess.

but here is a study that is enjoying success in replication.

High intelligence people and experts can be more susceptible to ad hoc rationalization. or rationalization of ones prejudices.


You can't say this with a straight face:

You are worried about people pushing agendas. The War on Knowledge is simply the best vehicle for unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals. We're in a period of literally unprecedented peace, wealth and health for most of the planet, largely because we as a species have embraced the power of science. People are very happy to pretend experts aren't a thing while they're cramming their opinions into a computer they carry in their pocket that is part of a worldwide communications network.


And have even remotely looked into it. I wouldn't even disagree really, just who you identify as the people doing this
unqualified people to push agendas based on their morals.


Gender theorist can't explain why most women are females and most men are males.

Gender theorists discover menstruation isn't natural but in fact gendered.

Gender theorists discover laws of science are a colonial construct.

Gender theorists discover gender is an invention of western colonialism.

I can go all day buddy. These are peer reviewed trog so far by posting six articles we have gotten approval from at least 24 leading gender scholars. some of those papers have been cited over 100 times. What number would you accept is no longer cherry picking.

So in relation to safe schools this:
But your flippant dismissal of it being a choice looks identical to typical refusal to acknowledge that sexuality is not a choice

Bears almost no relationship to anything scientific. As such one may be rightly skeptical about it's therapeutic value.

Apropos of nothing, I wish there was a browser extension that ran everything people typed through a logical fallacy tester so they could check it before they hit submit; I wonder if machine learning could do that


I wonder if a post comparing expert advice on cell phone batteries and medical advice to accepting expert advice on sociology in an opinion about post-truth would have made it past that?

The economist seems to think otherwise. I'd say it a pretty good bet if you think you theory is sooooo complicated the general public can't grasp it but it is still in their interests, it's more likely your wrong. In relation to the EU and brexit, the UK voted to go in, did they understand their interests then or not?

But secondly if you're not even willing to attempt to be persuasive, which the remain camp were not, you got a problem in a democracy.
08:03am 06/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9340 posts
But it shows that a simple democracy is *not* a good idea. Better is a system that holds some rights of the individual as inviolate and saves the rest for democratic decision.

Sometimes what's popular is not right, and sometimes what's right is not popular.
10:07am 06/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21099 posts
Civil Engineers have a
1.9%
chance of being automated.


woot
03:45pm 06/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2167 posts
Here you go trog.

Gender scholars discover computers are actually men in drag pretending to be women.

7/28

Experts, true blue Scottish experts.
07:29am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2168 posts
Gender scholars discover Israeli sperm banks are a Zionist plot.

8/32
07:31am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2169 posts
Gender scholars discover women lie about not being oppressed.

9/36
07:33am 07/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18270 posts

Gender theorist can't explain why most women are females and most men are males.



The Imprinted Brain Theory is certainly a contender for partially explaining this, extensions to the theory may build on this aspect.
Unfortunately, the same theory plays into the hands of evolutionary psychology that is often misinterpreted by some terribly misinformed men's groups, aka Red Pill And Friends.

refusal to acknowledge that sexuality is not a choice


That's still debatable. Sexual motivation, as with any highly complex human behaviour, is very difficult to pin down anything as specific as sexuality being a choice or not. Chances are it is a bit of a choice, and a bit not.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 11:47:00 07/Dec/16
11:45am 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2170 posts
red pill and friends are not designing mandatory "anti bullying" classes.

Don't talk to me about a non-problem when I'm talking about an actual one.
12:08pm 07/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18271 posts
God DAMN IT. I did it again, took too long to edit and lost my entire post.

TLDR version: The Imprinted Brain Theory has political ramifications in that people who suffer from the opposite of Asperger's Syndrome, best encompassed by Schizotypal personality disorder, and remain high functioning should be excellent in interpersonal communications due to hypermentalization. Their impairment isn't severe enough to start causing interpersonal relation issues at least not on relatively superficial level.
This means that such people would have an affity for certain professions, such as CEO's and Politicians.
With Austism spectrum, it is shown that there can often be a strong tendency to be extra-proficient at STEM's. With psychotic spectrum, the theory predicts the opposite should hold true, that there should be weaker than normal proficiencies in the STEM fields.
This implies that some politicians, particularly those that have extraordinary people skills and seem to gain political power with ease despite having little knowledge and skill in any area other than interpersonal relations, will likely have some level of impairment in understanding the fundamentals of STEM's. Also due to the psychotic traits such people should suffer from, they can have abnormally strong ego's, feelings of self-importance, narcissistic qualities, etc. Enough to be a problem, but not enough to cause deficiency in their career, in some careers it may even be an advantage, aka politics.
This people would be far too prone to dismiss scientific evidence that conflicts with their own beliefs, opinions, and goals as they literally cannot, or have a limited ability to, grasp the various technical underpinnings of how the science relates to their potential policy.
Trump is a great example. Abbott too I suspect.
Due to the nature of psychotic traits and having self-awareness of this limitation would be .. well limited. Strong ego'd people would also be resistant to accepting this possibility. To them, their belief of that Climate Change is not a thing, actually makes much more 'logical' sense than the scientific boffen ample evidence. In the same way an autistic person may not be able to comprehend the system as a whole, the psychotic spectrum person may not be able to comprehend the components that make up the system as a whole.
Never before in human history has 1 single person had the power to influence so many others not just nationally, but internationally.

12:21pm 07/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18272 posts

Don't talk to me about a non-problem when I'm talking about an actual one.


You invalidating D*** Bag. You won't win over people to your arguments if you devalue them, you'd probably just get the opposite of your desires out of defiance.
Much like how you may be feeling at this jab at you.

12:23pm 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2172 posts
You won't win over people to your arguments if you devalue them


Kinda my point.
12:38pm 07/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12528 posts
The Truth doesnt need to win over people.
Bulls*** does.

The Truth doesnt demand you Believe in it.
anything that requires you to Believe in it is no different to Religion.

12:54pm 07/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9341 posts
01:07pm 07/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12530 posts
No wonder we are sliding down the rankings
School has become all about What To Think rather than How To Think:

HUNDREDS of Victorian ­primary and high schools teachers will wear pro-refugee T-shirts in classrooms as part of a national push to close offshore detention camps. Organisers say school-based action will shine a light on refugees’ plight, but the state Opposition has criticised it as “political indoctrination”.

Up to 500 teachers at 30 Victorian schools will don T-shirts emblazoned with “Teachers for Refugees — Close the Camps, Bring them Here” and hold “informal discussions” in class from Monday in a stance backed by the education union

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/victorian-teachers-to-wear-prorefugee-shirts-in-class/news-story/7fb7e1a89a8f5df228a13e789b25a068

01:49pm 07/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9342 posts
That's actually incredibly f***ed up :/
08:50pm 07/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38649 posts
I can go all day buddy. These are peer reviewed trog so far by posting six articles we have gotten approval from at least 24 leading gender scholars. some of those papers have been cited over 100 times. What number would you accept is no longer cherry picking.
Anyone can write a paper about anything. Almost anyone can get a paper published in a journal, too (which is why we have impact factors). Citations are basically retweets; they are not a measure of any sort of scientific accuracy - articles might have citations because they're being torn to shreds by other articles.

Part of being a politician or creating policy should be about identifying and embracing experts in their chosen fields, not outright rejecting them. You can cherry pick papers all day and throw them at me but it won't affect the fact that there are experts in certain fields whose opinions are worth more than others.

I've just realised I'm sitting here trying to convince someone that experts are a thing and we should pay attention to them, so I'm going to stop now. You can let a small handful of gender-based nutbaggery shake your faith in the scientific process if you want.

In any case; I'm not replying (or reading) the rest of your post; I was replying to infi - I actually enjoy swapping posts with him (and, amazingly, Faceman) because I feel like they are at least working from within a narrative. Your posts have recently just taken on an inflammatory, point-scoring tone and I find I don't enjoy replying to them even when you drop such obvious low-hanging fruit like an opportunity to explain your misconceptions about how the scientific world actually works.

Rather than continue how about, the next time I'm in Australia I buy you a beer out at UQ and we sit down with a bunch of my social science PhD buddies out there and I can watch you have a conversation with actual experts about how science works? They are much better positioned to explain it than I am.
08:51pm 07/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2180 posts
I've just realised I'm sitting here trying to convince someone that experts are a thing and we should pay attention to them.


That is not what I am discussing trog. I am discussing when you might consider taking expert advice and when you might not. and when insistence on relying on them may be a cop out, or even damaging. or more broadly when they might undermine their own ability to give persuasive advice.

one good touch stone is willingness to explain specialist knowledge (which is something someone like Neil Degrasse Tyson is rightly celebrated for). Hence your post to Dan Rather is such a large non-sequitur it makes one wonder who is playing the point scoring game, you are so keen to accuse me of. I don't know about you but biased medical advice isn't one of the things I noticed on the campaign trail. Didn't notice the chemistry of batteries being a hot button topic either. But in terms of economic theory, this must always be balanced against the fact physicists explained the mechanics of the Higgs boson and convinced Thatcher to spend money on CERN.

I point this all out as a time when a party founded by actual nazi's only getting 46% of a popular vote is something to celebrate. Apropos of nothing naturally.

I actually enjoy swapping posts with him (and, amazingly, Faceman) because I feel like they are at least working from within a narrative.


What does that even mean? I can't see what it means outside of an ability on your behalf to intellectually compartmentalize them being preferable to not being able to.

Either way I'd welcome your correction of my:

misconceptions about how the scientific world actually works.


and I would be deeply interested to hear your Social Science PhD buddies views on the influence of Foucault and Derrida and the use of impenetrable language in social sciences. If you have an email address to pm with an introduction I genuinely would be very very interested.
09:31pm 07/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23482 posts
I've just realised I'm sitting here trying to convince someone that experts are a thing and we should pay attention to them,


it's irrefutable that there are experts. (there are experts in warhammer too). but it does not follow that their opinions should unfailingly dictate political policy. experts quite often have a virtual obsession with their area of expertise lacking the greater context of competing societal interests. they also have a vested interested (in terms of personal fame and funding, regardless of their altrustic intentions) to have their views accepted and implemented.

politics is about horse trading - it always will be - and experts are one special interest. if engineers' expert advice were to be fully observed then the national speed limit would be 50kph. politicians have to reflect the will of the people - not the will of experts.
10:57pm 07/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38652 posts
politicians have to reflect the will of the people - not the will of experts.
They can reflect the will of the people on matters of choice and opinion, but not on matters of fact and reality. Politicians are elected to lead; sometimes they have the choice of doing what the people want, but sometimes they need to make hard choices - often at the expense of their careers - to do something that is necessary. (It might interest you to know that I was taught this lesson by a mate whose father was a senior Liberal party member; until that point I used to think Internet voting / direct democracy was the best thing we could aim for.)

In any case, for every "export" that wants their "opinion" to unfailingly dictate political policy, how far would we have to go to find some complete amateur who feels the exact same way??!! The only way to look at those decisions (imho) is as [I think] you do - through the frame of civil liberties. But the moral calculus involved is complicated as f***.
12:31am 08/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9343 posts
Anyone can write a paper about anything. Almost anyone can get a paper published in a journal, too (which is why we have impact factors).

07:58am 08/12/16 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2342 posts

This will melt any neoliberal brain;

Why 'living within our means' is a great con

When the Government tells you that a social safety net for our most disadvantaged is a drain on the economy, it wants you to believe it can run out of the currency it creates. It implies that the Government is just like a household, which can only spend what it earns, while in practice it is closer to the truth to say that households can only earn if the Government spends.

"If the non-government sector wants to save dollars overall, then the Government has to be in deficit a dollar. It's not an opinion. It's national accounting."

For you to be able to save money, you must be in surplus, and that means somebody else must be in deficit. Suggesting otherwise is one of the greatest deceptions Australian voters have ever been sold.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-08/the-great-living-within-our-means-con/8064268

Standing by for the infi brain fart


09:21pm 08/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7535 posts
Interesting that Hillary won 54% of the popular vote but still lost

10:43pm 08/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38655 posts
Interesting that Hillary won 54% of the popular vote but still lost
The interesting thing to me is learning about the Electoral College and how it works. This is the first time I've ever really paid attention to it.

The TLDR is not all votes in the US are equal. The vote of someone in California is not technically worth as much as the vote of someone in, say, Ohio, because of the way the Electoral College votes work.

It actually makes sense I think.

At least one elector has decided he's not going to vote for Trump. I think Moore might be on to something but I feel like the EC votes will still come in for Trump. But I guess it's important to note that part of being "for" the EC system is acknowledging the fact that the EC might ultimately not "let" a candidate win.
10:51pm 08/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18277 posts

experts quite often have a virtual obsession with their area of expertise lacking the greater context of competing societal interests. they also have a vested interested (in terms of personal fame and funding, regardless of their altrustic intentions) to have their views accepted and implemented.


Holy s*** Infi, Project more!
10:54pm 08/12/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1038 posts
The EC makes sense only in the context of the USA being a Union of States rather than just a nation of citizens.

Irrespective of who wins the popular vote or the EC or whatever in any year, the EC is not a very democratic system precisely because it devalues the vote of some people and increases that of others.

It's just Sir Joh's gerrymandered Queensland all over again.

So *what* that States with jack s*** people might not get as much attention if they removed the EC? Each person's vote would be worth something and people in every State would have a reason to vote, not just those in the "battleground" States.
12:34am 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38656 posts
The EC makes sense only in the context of the USA being a Union of States rather than just a nation of citizens.
Yeh but literally almost /everything/ about the US only makes sense in the context of it being a Union of States. I didn't quite grasp exactly how big a deal this was until I lived there. It's basically Europe!

this slashdot thread I thought was really interesting. I am not convinced the EC is a great idea but the case made for it is based on it being a Union and in that context, it makes sense.

All that said - pretty much everything about the union I think has been totally f***ed by (I hate that I'm going to say this) the military industrial complex. The amount of federal taxes that the average taxpayer has to pay that goes straight into defence the military is way out of wack with reality.

I suspect if the EC decides to bounce Trump (staggeringly unlikely, surely) everyone bemoaning the EC will suddenly be like "well, yes, that's what it's supposed to do, well done those people" :)

I'm not saying I agree with it, I just can see why the system is the way it is & why Americans tolerate it. Having lived in the midwest & I've experienced first hand what it's like to be in a "flyover state" from people I visited on the east/west coasts. The smaller states have a massive inferiority complex & will be loathe to give up any rights.
09:27am 09/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23484 posts
Standing by for the infi brain fart


zimbabwe spends all the currency it creates. the writer is a financial drop kick.

The EC makes sense only in the context of the USA being a Union of States rather than just a nation of citizens.


and australia's constitutional amendments require a mjaority of states to pass. this stops the tyranny of populous states overt smaller states.
10:02am 09/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1959 posts

Why does the government want us to pay more for electricity and have a dirtier more polluting system?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-06/csiro-backs-emissions-trading-scheme-to-reduce-power-prices/8094498


Introduction of a carbon emissions trading scheme could save households $216 per year
ENA says there should be greater emphasis on feeding solar and battery power back into the grid
CSIRO is calling for a clearer climate change policy from the Federal Government
The CSIRO and Energy Networks Australia (ENA) have spent two years analysing the future of Australia's electricity system.


10:27am 09/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23485 posts
the economic modeling works well in the computer. the idea of economic stimulus sounded good on paper too. be wary of economists touting magic bean solutions.

this is not an environmental question but a microeconomic question about trying to predict how all the payers would compete in a traded carbon environment - and inevitably it will be corruptly. but consumers will pay.
10:37am 09/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1960 posts

Externallities aren't even taken into consideration like health benefits of moving to clean electricity and not digging up coal.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/sydney-air-pollution-exceeds-national-standards-nsw-environmental-protection-authority-report-shows-20151230-glwzck.html


11:23am 09/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4987 posts
01:25pm 09/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3161 posts
Interesting points Pete! Will have to mull all that over for a while tbh. Definitely quite contradictory in the case of the EU and neoliberalism which is interesting. I guess the post-truth I'm referring to is all the fake news and false equivalence of non-issues, rather than the Hillary being part of the establishment one. Things like the emails scandal, Benghazi, corruption, for example.

Great to see that Austria rejected the far right populism in their election (I suspect that really came down to prevailing institutional memory of the Nazis though). However, the referendum overturn in Italy is a bit concerning. Admittedly it sounded like the reforms weren't that great an idea, not sure why Renzi staked his whole platform on it. Now there's right-wing populist elements that may take over instead, and they've got a potential banking crisis. Things are looking troublesome for Italy. Then there's the French and Dutch elections next year.

RE: HurricanJim's article, I was also thinking this as Zimbabwe is next door. If a government can't run out of money, how do you explain Zimbabwe?

Seems like Aus is heading for some economic decline in general.

The EC made sense in 1708 or whatever, I don't really think it make much sense anymore. There's no real reason for those smaller less populated states to have a greater say than the other states now. Hillary Clinton won by almost 3m votes, and lost those few swing states by something like a 100,000 vote margin. And as Moore says, pretty much 54% of the country didn't vote for Trump. How exactly is that a fair representative democracy? The US would do well to move closer to federalisation rather than sticking with the union of states vibe imo.

I like that Political Compass site. Some of those questions are tough! It's amazing to me how far away the main political parties in most countries are from where I, and I presume most peeps, plot (in the left/libertarian square). Most parties seem to be in the top right, right/authoritarian square, even Labour. Though I suppose voting itself is a touch authoritarian.

I'm also just off old mate Ghandi, Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.36

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-3.88&soc=-4.36
08:57pm 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38658 posts
If a government can't run out of money, how do you explain Zimbabwe?
Well... from the other side, if a government /can/ run out of money, how do you explain the United States?! :)

Zimbabwe ran out of money because it's a failed state though, right? At least economically speaking. Noone will fund their debt because it seems like a terrible bet. But people are still happy to play the long game with the US despite their ludicrous debt levels because they're probably not going to implode any time soon. Different countries have /significantly/ different access to credit depending on a number of factors (their economy, their political situation, etc).

To me it seems completely reasonable to say that you can run out of "money". To say that it's "literally impossible" like that article says is true to the extent that it's "literally impossible' the government could stop printing cash, but it's quite possible that cash would become totally worthless on the international stage and then we'd end up like Zimbabwe, right?

I mean it seems /practically/ impossible that this would happen, but not literally. WHERE'S TAGGS!
10:10pm 09/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3163 posts
Yeah I'm not sure. That sounds reasonable. If a country is unlikely to become a failed state, like Australia, that kind of makes sense that it shouldn't really be a concern. But wouldn't the long-term implications detriment the economy? The other thing I thought about is that a currency can get so devalued that the money is worthless, like what happened in the great depression and during WW2. Some economic insight from taggs would be great!
10:35pm 09/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38659 posts
But wouldn't the long-term implications detriment the economy?
I would guess that the detriment would mainly come about only if there started to be doubt the debt would be repaid - but before that happens I think there are several fairly large warning signals along the way (drop in credit rating for the country, devaluation of currency as you point out). I guess "good" countries will respond to those signals and react to save their economies.

(related: there is a great near-future scifi-ish Neal Stephenson book called Interface) in which the United States decides they are going to just write off all their debt. This irritates all the many powerful organisations that are owed staggering amounts of money so they conspire in a plot to take over the presidency to reverse this policy so they get their money back. It is pretty awesome.)
10:45pm 09/12/16 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2343 posts
zimbabwe spends all the currency it creates. the writer is a financial drop kick.


and there it is.
10:48pm 09/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4988 posts
It's interesting how leftist people are without realising it.
See, the media & establishment need to have you convinced the left is an evil force, when the opposite is true.
12:15am 10/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38660 posts
Like with the extreme right, I think it's more the extreme left that do a good enough job of making people think the rest of their side is weird
04:44am 10/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3164 posts
Oh cool, I'll check that out trog, thanks! I actually read Snow Crash just recently, first Neal Stephenson book I've ever read, was brilliant. I've been meaning to read Seveneves too.
07:28am 10/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23486 posts
Well... from the other side, if a government /can/ run out of money, how do you explain the United States?! :)


money is paper. it has no inherent worth. it's worth is derived from the value of the country that issues it: productivity, natural resources, rules of law, fiscal responsibility, military strength and projection. All these issues combine together to give the receiver of the money a level of confidence in the paper issued.

America can keep issuing money because it rates highly and Zimbabwe is broke because it rates lowly. America is an industrial and military powerhouse and will be for the foreseeable future - it also controls oil flows throughout the world with its military.

No currency can avoid the laws of gravity though and America is trying hard to break its currency through massive budget deficits and declining productivity. The US needs to recreate its infrastructure revolutions of the past e.g. the railways and the Interstate, instead of giving its taxpayer funds away on porkbarreling and welfare.

I wonder when HurricaineJim is down the pub with empty pockets, will his bartender allow him to keep issuing IOU's (written on his drink coaster of course!) and accept them as payment. No because HJ can offer no value.
10:24am 10/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4989 posts

No currency can avoid the laws of gravity though and America is trying hard to break its currency through massive budget deficits and declining productivity. The US needs to recreate its infrastructure revolutions of the past e.g. the railways and the Interstate, instead of giving its taxpayer funds away on porkbarreling and welfare.


U.S Productivity is increasing.


http://i.imgur.com/3tsPZYR.jpg

They need to increase tax on big business, and then increase infrastructure spending along with increasing minimum wage. Profits are up, wages & hours worked have flat lined.
Business won't create jobs unless a majority of people have money & confidence to spend it.

http://i.imgur.com/c7s9dPs.png

Tax cuts to business simply won't have enough impact when the lower & middle classes are being squeezed.
12:05pm 10/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12532 posts
It's interesting how leftist people are without realising it.

See, the media & establishment need to have you convinced the left is an evil force, when the opposite is true.


Leftist views tend to focus on Idealism.
Idealism is easy.

I came across this recently:
Basic contrasts between Conservatives and Liberals/Leftys defined by Christian Walker seem plausible.
"At the core of it, Conservatives base their ideology on what they see as reason
and logic and it is individualistic by nature, whereas a liberal's ideology is based on emotion and ideals and is collective* by nature.

A liberal/Lefty is interested in curing society's ills by social engineering.
A conservative is interested in curing society's ills by individuals exercising
their own choices to better themselves. Because of this, conservatives view
centralized power with deep suspicion. Liberals on the other hand see
centralized power as an opportunity to affect great change for good."






last edited by FaceMan at 13:11:21 10/Dec/16
01:10pm 10/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4990 posts
At the core of it, Conservatives base their ideology on what they see as reason
and logic


lol
02:19pm 10/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3165 posts
Interesting read.

The country may feel divided, but a meticulous data analysis reveals that Trump and Clinton supporters aren't as different as they may seem.

Escape Your Echo Chamber And Understand What Really Makes Trump Supporters Tick
11:51pm 12/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38663 posts
more NBN fun with news of a new NBN tax. Surreal.
12:51am 13/12/16 Permalink
f**les
Brisbane, Queensland
6171 posts
the nbn gets worse and worse, i can't believe they are only taxing compeititors
11:11am 13/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12534 posts
Ohhh Mr Magoo you've done it again...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-12/turnbull-faces-liberal-revolt-over-republican-movement-speech/8113578

WTF was the Power Station Carbon Tax rubbish last week ?
What WILL he do next ?


12:44pm 13/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9346 posts
I've noticed a significant drop in NBN performance in the last fornight. I used to get a constant 14ms ping to the Overwatch servers. Now the best I can manage is a constant 15ms. WTF is going on? :/
01:32pm 13/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2184 posts
Well... from the other side, if a government /can/ run out of money, how do you explain the United States?! :)


Not quite from the other side though is it. USD transactions account for 60% of global GDP. being the worlds reserve currency has it's benefits. IE purely domestic assessments maybe apt to mislead RE strength of the dollar.

Just a thought.

Apropos of nothing, maybe an inflammatory one that doesn't fit inside a narrative particularly well.
05:33pm 13/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12535 posts
Prime Minister Peter Dutton

http://edge.alluremedia.com.au/uploads/businessinsider/2016/05/Dutton-410x231.jpg

a Faceman Prophecy for 2017
12:31am 14/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21102 posts
they will pick someone else if they knife him

julie bishop has a fair bit of support i think
02:11pm 14/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3166 posts
Good ol' Denzel.


06:21pm 14/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38665 posts
Not quite from the other side though is it
Yes well that's why I had the smiley face and then went on to explain the difference between Zimbabwe and the United States in my own post not two lines away from the line you quoted
it's worth is derived from the value of the country that issues it:
Yes well that's why I had the smiley face and then went on to explain the difference between Zimbabwe and the United States in my own post not two lines away from the line you quoted

if I was an actual troll this would be too easy, but I'm really just trying to write interesting things. The question of the staggering US debt isn't just coming to light in my witty banter; there has been much news this year of places like China getting out of the US debt market. I don't follow it that closely but there has also been talk of what the Trump presidency means (history would indicate probably way more debt). So while they're no Zimbabwe (obviously, right?) the question is how wide that money tap will be opened from now on.
08:22pm 14/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38666 posts
The US needs to recreate its infrastructure revolutions of the past e.g. the railways and the Interstate, instead of giving its taxpayer funds away on porkbarreling and welfare.
I (probably obviously) completely agree with this - but what I find interesting now is so do a lot of Americans (well, at least anecdotally, perhaps not evident from the recent election).

I was very interested to talk to many Americans and hear how they wish there was more spending on things like roads & rail for example (especially in the midwest which has basically no rail). (Obviously everyone wants more spending on healthcare too.)

There is also a push in many tech areas in a push to government provided broadband/fibre services as an infrastructure project because they're completely sick of private monopolies.

A lot of people still haven't resolved their cognitive dissonance between small govt/free market/capitalist approaches to problems and the fact that in many cases in the US they have just been spectacular failures for consumers, but watching the increasing push towards more large-scale government projects like this has been really interesting.
08:38pm 14/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23495 posts
I don't follow it that closely but there has also been talk of what the Trump presidency means (history would indicate probably way more debt). So while they're no Zimbabwe (obviously, right?) the question is how wide that money tap will be opened from now on.


I'm curious as to what history you're referring to.

There is also a push in many tech areas in a push to government provided broadband/fibre services as an infrastructure project because they're completely sick of private monopolies.


It's all well and good to wish for a govt provided service and then discover it's utterly ineffective - when really the govt should stay the hell out and instead bust open monopolies using their anti-trust laws.

A lot of people still haven't resolved their cognitive dissonance between small govt/free market/capitalist approaches to problems and the fact that in many cases in the US they have just been spectacular failures for consumers, but watching the increasing push towards more large-scale government projects like this has been really interesting.


I think Western liberal democracy has reached the point that dependence on govt to deliver essential services has become so ingrained that any attempt to wind that back would result in civil disturbance. However in relation to commodified consumer needs, I doubt the govt could have developed cars, food and mobile phones better than the market has done.

The role of small govt libertarians in modern government is to reduce the growth in bureaucracy (business red tape and regulation of our personal lives) and govt waste through pork barreling and crony capitalism - and get back to taxes for services and infrastructure, and stay the hell out of the rest which is otherwise just Big Brother poking his nose in.
09:04pm 14/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38668 posts
I'm curious as to what history you're referring to.
Republican presidents that pitched small government and then went on to spend zillions (i.e., Reagan, I guess). But I mean, really, any president except Clinton, right?

It'd be great to think Trump will be different but who f*****g knows what he's going to do. It's basically popcorn time.
It's all well and good to wish for a govt provided service and then discover it's utterly ineffective - when really the govt should stay the hell out and instead bust open monopolies using their anti-trust laws.
I agree this would be a better starting point for most places in the US but due to the power of money in politics there it seems completely unworkable. The companies that have monopolies know they do because the laws are in their favour and they pay to stay that way. It seems to be impossible to effect change in this regard and it doesn't seem to be getting better.
10:10pm 14/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21104 posts
i think infi has pork on the brain
08:41am 15/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1964 posts

When is the war on cars going to start?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-15/should-we-be-most-concerned-about-cars-planes-or-terrorists/8122956

"As far as what your fear is, if you're just a random person living in the United States even in 9/11 — the worst terrorist attacks in the history of of the United States — your chance of being killed in a car accident were higher than if you were killed by terrorists," he said.


06:12pm 15/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23496 posts
According to Leonardo in Before the Flood, we need to start a war against cows.
06:17pm 15/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25581 posts
According to Leonardo in Before the Flood, we need to start a war against cows.
Land clearance and resources used for raising livestock are a large concern when it comes to fighting climate change.
06:27pm 15/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38669 posts
When is the war on cars going to start?
yesterday
07:51pm 15/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12536 posts
I wouldnt be too concerned about that Global Warming stuff anymore.

http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/12/14/fake-news-alert-climate-scientists-save-data-from-donald-trump/

Reuters news service examined the memo, which contains 74 questions, including a request for a list of all department employees and contractors who attended the annual global climate talks hosted by the United Nations within the last five years, and a list of the professional affiliations.

The missive also requested a list of all department employees or contractors who have attended any meetings on the social cost of carbon, and for a list of all publications written by Energy Department employees over the last three years.

The memo also asked for the names of the 20 top salaried employees at the department’s labs, and a list of all websites maintained or contributed to by lab staff during work hours.”


Holy S*** !




07:58pm 15/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4991 posts
Dutton discussing the real important stuff

"Happy Holidays" suits our constitution more appropriately, we are a secular country after all.

The Anti PC crowd seem to dig in on conservative positions, and label any changes as giving in to Muslims, or political correctness. The dumb doesn't let up.
08:00pm 15/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1965 posts
yesterday


That's a war on drivers, not cars.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmpgFQgIYAAyJLB.jpg

Self driving cars will still take up a lot of space and require pedestrians to be 2nd class.
09:40pm 15/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21105 posts
because they are second class
08:04am 16/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12537 posts
The brainwashing of our little children continues...

A SYDNEY public school has transformed its nine-year-old students into political activists, having them launch a petition against child refugees in detention.

Helensburgh Public School is being investigated by the NSW Department of Education after the petition from its Year 3 students, who said they were “heartbroken” after learning about “trapped” children “with no certainly and little hope” living in “detention-like conditions”, was sent to politicians.


Hey Teachers
Leave them kids alone !
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/teachers-preaching-politics-at-captive-students/news-story/b406653b99a76ce8e984cefe9c15b898

Peter Dutton needs to get angry about this too.
That Kedron School thats trying to remove Christmas from Australia is near me.
Godless Commies in the Education system.



01:01pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1966 posts
Imagine teaching children that keeping other children in detention is horrible?

If only they followed the teachings of baby jeebus and learnt that there's a place for all children and that's not necessarily not in concentration camps.
01:28pm 16/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23497 posts
Sickening that those poor kids are having a political agenda rammed down their throat at the age of 8.
01:54pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4992 posts
Sickening that fighting climate change or caring about refugee kids is considered a political agenda.
What's next? Teaching kids to learn to care for the environment or plant trees is a greenie leftie politically motivated move?
03:58pm 16/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23498 posts
Mandatory detention is government policy and also approved by the vast majority of Australians so what gives teachers the right to force feed fringe beliefs to their students? Parents should have to approve all political activities in school.

Bill Shorten says school children should be writing to Santa instead of sending political messages to MPs amid revelations Year 3 students at a Sydney public school launched a petition against child asylum-seekers in detention.
article
04:09pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4993 posts
Same with planting trees or fighting climate change is government policy. So if students are taught that, is it a political agenda?
To any reasonable person with morals, having innocent kids in detention is extremely undesirable, so why is this topic hush hush if taught to kids?
04:17pm 16/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23499 posts
Same with planting trees or fighting climate change is government policy. So if students are taught that, is it a political agenda?
To any reasonable person with morals, having innocent kids in detention is extremely undesirable, so why is this topic hush hush if taught to kids?


it is a political agenda. teachers are paid to deliver the national curriculum, not personal political opinions.
04:19pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4994 posts
They are also paid to instill good values & morals into children. This would seem to be an appropriate topic to teach our kids on not what to do, same as with teaching them that fighting climate change is what we all need to be doing.
04:23pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1967 posts
What's next? Teaching kids to learn to care for the environment or plant trees is a greenie leftie politically motivated move?


Don't forget looking after each other and not bullying, it's all cultural marxism!
05:12pm 16/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23500 posts
What part of the curriculum does protesting mandatory detention cover?

Would it be acceptable to protest in support of mandatory detention?
05:18pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4995 posts
Is the curriculum meant to be something that must be adhered to with no deviation?
Many schools will swap things up and have their own style of teaching. If a school is telling kids that putting kids into detention is bad, and then they feel compelled to write to the Government to have that changed, that's fine with me.
I don't think teaching kids that putting innocent kids into jails is OK is something that matches Australian values.
05:38pm 16/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23501 posts
That is leftist hypocrisy summarised nicely into a single post.

"You can say anything you like folks as long as you agree with my leftist ideology."
05:43pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4996 posts
I wonder how that would go down, a teacher was caught telling kids that the Government is going to remove innocent refugee kids from detention. and we should continue to keep them there.
I dont think those kids would be compelled to write to Government to ensure kids stay in jail.. Maybe if they were brought up by Nazis?
05:53pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2185 posts
Yes third grade students were "compelled" by their own deep understanding of the issues, to mail the letter to the MP the teacher left on their desk. their concerns to their local MP.

oh look a nazi reference.
07:34pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9348 posts
I'm sure these third grade students were presented with the facts for both sides of the arguments and were capable of making a reasoned and considered decision based on all evidence presented. Wait, no, the other thing.
07:44pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4997 posts
You don't need a deep understanding of an issue to know that innocent kids in detention = bad.
Kids of that age certainly can feel compelled knowing innocent kids their age are in detention.
07:44pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2186 posts
Yeah could be that. Could also be their teacher lent on them.
07:47pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3168 posts
The irony is too much, given how many conservative teachers / schools insist on teaching conservative ideology.

Oh noes, some kids with a shred of empathy think it's bad that we imprison other children indefinitely. This just in, climate change is bad, caring for the environment is important, maybe the oil barons are more interested in making money than being decent human beings, the sky is blue.
07:47pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2187 posts
I think you can draw a subtle distinction between "today's class is letter writing to the local MP about my pet issue" and religious education. When the kids are compelled to write to their MPS on the evils of abortion we can re-examine. But for the record I don't think state schools should have RE.

As an anecdote, I remember very clearly when I was in about grade three joking about how I wanted to vote for bob hawke and not joh. Not because we were having a detailed political discussion but because we had just found out our teacher was joh's daughter.

Anyway a kid overheard and said he was going to dob on us. I can remember being very worried I was going to get in trouble, but the teacher not only didn't tell me off, but assembled the class and told everyone dobbing on someone for who they vote for was very very bad and the kid who dobbed got in trouble.

different time I guess.

I am stridently against refugee policy, and I find that inappropriate.
07:57pm 16/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12538 posts
I wonder if the Teachers told the kids that the Teachers Union gives money to The ALP who support Mandatory Detention ?

08:36pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3169 posts
Fair point Pete, being bipartisan is good, though upholding human rights seems like a decent thing to be teaching kids about, it's not their fault the current government is on the wrong side of that.

Just saw this on the facebooks, lol.

09:21pm 16/12/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9349 posts
Be careful with the claims around what others think on whether kids should be held in detention. There's a vast difference between whether they should be there at all in good conditions, versus in the conditions that are claimed to exist along with the claimed treatment people are experiencing.
09:23pm 16/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2188 posts
I absolutely agree RE mandatory detention and Human rights, but I also have an appreciation for the fiendish complexity of the issues.

I also find it a stretch to believe that an 8 year old knew they had a local MP, much less that they could write to them about political grievances.

There is a line between teaching children and exploiting their natural credulity to further a political goal. I find the later the more likely in this case, and to be in poor taste.
09:30pm 16/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25582 posts
I'd much prefer if they used a fictional example. A simple story along the lines of some rich monarch having desperate people come to them for help. The rich monarch could be indirectly responsible for the suffering of the people requesting help. Then instead of providing help, which would have a minimal impact on the kingdom, the monarch instead punishes them for *reasons*. I am not imaginative enough to come up with a reason that would easily fit into any sort of coherent narrative so they might need to hire George R. R. Martin to come up with something there.

Then when the children grow up hopefully this very simple story will resound in their minds. When they see both governments implementing things like it in real life they will be able to recognise how it is a bad thing to torture and imprison people for being brown when all they were ever after was a bit of help.
10:20pm 16/12/16 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1222 posts
Can you stop being such a f*****g yawn-smith fpot.

Jesus Christ..
11:01pm 16/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12539 posts
The Parents of the kids keep them in detention because they wont go home.
But people like Vash and fpot and the ABC keep giving them false hope that they may get to come here.
Its not going to happen.

The Debate is Over.
11:42pm 16/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12540 posts
Teaching our kids What To Think.

http://i.imgur.com/LeD8aIh.jpg
02:08am 17/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4998 posts
Gee i wonder what newspaper that is?
Let's just sweep this under the rug, we dont want our children knowing what we do to refugee kids. It's the conservative way.
04:06am 17/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2189 posts
Gee i wonder what newspaper that is?


The Age. No wait, the Guardian.
10:05am 17/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23502 posts
Great, now in addition to pervert teachers we have to worry about political activists.
10:29am 17/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25583 posts
People who think torturing people because they're brown are as bad as pedophiles.
02:12pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Vash
4999 posts
Fpot, this is a matter of national security and maintaining our sovereignty. We cannot allow a handful of brown kids to enter our country unlawfully. So we will keep them in detention despite self harm.
Oh btw, that reported self harm is for attention. people burning themselves is a ploy to get into Australia! /s
03:03pm 17/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23503 posts
Pedophiles are far worse than political activists but they both must be kept clear from impressionable children.
03:13pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5000 posts
Just like we should keep Chaplains away from impressionable children? At what point does it become political activism vs just basic human decency?
04:18pm 17/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2190 posts
At what point does it become political activism vs just basic human decency?


what does that even mean Vash?
05:01pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5001 posts
Stated earlier, not in relation to chaplains, but fighting climate change (is a political agenda to some) is a subject taught in schools. As well as treating your fellow man with respect.
So wheres the reactionary response to that?
Why are refugees so bad to people like infi?
05:43pm 17/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23504 posts
Refugees are most welcome provided
i) they are genuine refugees - economic migrants can do the paperwork in their home country
ii) are subject to security and ID verification;
iii) assimilate to our culture and accept our values; and
iv) learn english
v) don't form enclaves
vi) fit in.
vii) get a job.

The safe haven Australia is providing refugees is admirable, and Tony Abbott's resettlement policy has saved many lives.

The hypocrisy of teachers spouting detention policy is plain to see when they would not tolerate opposing views being promoted.
06:25pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1968 posts
Great, now in addition to pervert teachers we have to worry about political activists.


They're being taught modern history, like when I was in primary school we were taught there were people from yugoslavia coming here because of a terrible war.

I would have been sad as a child if these people were imprisoned just because they were escaping war also.

This is not political. It's being a real human bean.

06:27pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18278 posts

I'm sure these third grade students were presented with the facts for both sides of the arguments and were capable of making a reasoned and considered decision based on all evidence presented. Wait, no, the other thing.


You'd be surprised at what children, even younger than that, can reason out. I'm fairly certain, most kids would find it odd to have other children locked up for doing nothing wrong, for listening to their parents.
At least the kids I've talked to about similar stuff have said as much. Including my own, one of my daughters who just finished grade 1 seems to have an emotional understanding that eclipses some of the people on this forum.
11:48pm 17/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12541 posts
Children dont need to be hearing stuff like that.

Children should be hearing about Alice in Wonderland
Not Muhammad in Detention.

11:56pm 17/12/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18279 posts
iii) assimilate to our culture and accept our values; and
iv) learn english
iv) don't form enclaves
vi) fit in.
vii) get a job.

I've met few migrants that can't speak English. I've met some that have dodgy English, but s*** they can speak two languages, I can only speak one. So they are doing far better than I in that regard.

Anyway, those points you listed. It's hard to fit in and get a job when you have seriously discriminatory people such as yourself, infi (Oh you can disguise it however you like, you don't fool us all though. Covert racism is still racism, even if you don't get in trouble for it).
So what will they do then? I know from personal experience that if you don't fit into the common group, you are forced to fit outside it. This often means grouping up with other ostracized people. THE VERY THING YOU DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN.

Does that even occur to you at all? I see you do it elsewhere to, support policies that lead to the very situation you DON'T want because you seem to lack an understanding of the social sciences.
Supporting this sort of detention and vilification of People Not Like Us puts up incredible resistance to a person integrating into society. You point a finger at them YOU ARE DIFFERENT! and then seem surprised when they listen to you, see themselves as different and act that way. THEN YOU WANT TO PUNISH them FOR SOMETHING YOU DID.
You are effectively Gas Lighting them. As with truly deluded people you won't perceive it that way at all, instead you will rationalize it in all sorts of creative ways.



last edited by Tollaz0r! at 00:03:03 18/Dec/16
12:00am 18/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23505 posts
if they speak english, fit, get a job, accept aussie culture how are they different?
12:13am 18/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12542 posts
Maybe learning a reasonable level of English could be part of joining this great Country ?
Free English lessons ?
pay them to attend.

Why wouldnt you want to learn the Language ?

Senator Hanson will on Sunday unveil the first of One Nation's 36 candidates for the state poll, expected to be called next year, where the party has its best chance of winning seats in two decades.

"This is going to be the biggest test for One Nation since 1998,'' Ms Hanson told the Courier-Mail. Recent polls have shown support for the party in double digits state-wide, with its support strongest in regional and rural seats, including Lockyer in the state's southwest, which Senator Hanson herself nearly won in 2015.


http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/12/17/one-nation-reveal-queensland-state-candidates

One Nation will be the Minority partner in an LNP Government next QLD Election.
The silent majority are lurking...

12:22am 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2191 posts
You'd be surprised at what children, even younger than that, can reason out. I'm fairly certain, most kids would find it odd to have other children locked up for doing nothing wrong, for listening to their parents.
At least the kids I've talked to about similar stuff have said as much. Including my own, one of my daughters who just finished grade 1 seems to have an emotional understanding that eclipses some of the people on this forum.


I'm sure they were just given the facts and as a free act of "basic human decency" put on a show at a trump rally. They just objectively get it. You'd be surprised at what children can reason out and all.
11:34am 18/12/16 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5294 posts
Lol Pete...

Having read the last few posts I could just imagine Vash's kids (if he ever has any) doing that exact same thing for Labor or the Greens. Not sure how the chant/song would go but I'm sure it would be along the lines of "give us all a basic income so us kids and Dad never have to work another day and can spend all day arguing on message boards instead!"

I want my boys going to school and learning English, Math, Science, humanities, a language and getting in some exercise through team sports. Learning how to treat others with respect and patience and how to work to time frames and work in groups with others who have different ideas.

A political agenda or any personal views one way or the other should not be imparted upon them. School should be a safe space for facts and students should know what they're receiving is a fact not a point of view. At the same time I am not in support of school chaplains or religion in school at all for the exact same reason.

If you want children starting to debate these sorts of things, that is fine, but it should be when they've developed the ability to think critically, perhaps years 11 and 12.
12:24pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5002 posts
That's another Murdoch bit of silliness fade2black, that Labor & greens voters are welfare dependent bludging hippies.
Infact you'll find that many leftist voters are highly educated, in high paying jobs, and enjoy passing on critical thinking skills to their kids.
12:53pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2192 posts
01:01pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5003 posts
I don't get your trump rally comparison PP. How's kids singing & dancing in front of a crowd related to kids caring for their fellow humans?
01:38pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2193 posts
How is kids writing to parliament "caring for their fellow humans"?

I'm sure you can string the point together if you try.
01:50pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5004 posts
I dunno, seems simple to me. Kids hear other kids are jailed, wants to set them free. Teacher tells them how they could help.
Theres the possibility that they were forced to draw about it & forward to MPs, but seems unlikely to me.
02:02pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2194 posts
Kids hear America needs to be made great again and want to help. Campaign manager tells them how.

Totally how it went down.
02:10pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5005 posts
Cool, i suppose there wasn't any outrage from the right on that if it actually happened eh?
02:13pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2195 posts
What does that have to do with anything?
02:20pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5006 posts
If it happened in schools. They'd certainly be quiet about that one over in the Trump camp.
Yet i still fail to see what it has to do with kids wanting to help release other kids.
02:33pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2196 posts
way to not answer the question.

the Trump kids just want to help all American kids live in a great America. that's just all they want to do.
02:36pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5007 posts
Im not sure what your point is here. Kids can be taught to sing & dance political slogans, yeah alright. And?
02:44pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2197 posts
So the Trump kids might just be parroting what they have been told to say? Maybe their song and dance doesn't reflect a considered political position?
02:55pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5008 posts
Certainly a possibility. Considering the kids of the school in question actually went to the effort of drawing out their concerns instead of pre filled letters, i would say they weren't told exactly what to say about it.
While a performance of singing & dancing is more choreographed.
03:19pm 18/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7536 posts
Allah Akbar!

The prophet will smiling down from heaven on this thread
03:31pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2198 posts
Yes the Trump kids *might* have been exploited. just one option of many.

In addition to the drawings they cannily send a letter mentioning "detention-like" conditions to MPs. Expert use of a weasel word that one, these 8 years olds are really something and that drip of raw human emotion has got them writing at the level of a legally aware adult. They go on to mention our foreign aid arrangements.

Just basic human decency to send a letter which strongly implies, but doesn't actually state kids are in mandatory off-shore detention. And suggests increased foreign aid might have a knock on effect for refugee flows.

8 year old children. Yeah you were saying something about critical thinking skills.

Interesting that they draw children behind bars when there aren't any children in off-shore detention camps, they have all been moved to community based detention on the mainland
*edit* or nauru *edit*. Wonder where they got that impression from.
03:43pm 18/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12543 posts
Hollywood Liberals are at it again
This time they are appealing to Mr Ashley McMillan to change his vote away from Trump in the Electoral College and hopefully others will follow...
Problem is Ashley McMillan is a Woman

ohhhhhh Hollywood Liberals.... you've done it again




Why would anyone care what some actors think about anything ?
all they do is read other peoples lines
they didnt even bother to research who they were talking to

Idealism is easy.
04:46pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5295 posts
Vash: Murdoch has nothing to do with it. You're pro welfare and so far left of center you can't see even see the line down the middle. Deflect all you want that's the truth.

If you were capable of critical thinking, as you claim, you'd have been able to figure out the point I was driving towards. To dumb it down for you:

Children in year 3 are not capable of critical thinking. They are young and impressionable and are therefore not able to form their own opinions around those given by others. Hence why at this age the information they receive in schools should be limited to FACTS.

I did some quick googling on children and critical thinking and their seemed to be a lot pointing to research by someone named Piaget that states children aren't fully capable of using logic to solve problems until they're 11+ so basically ready for senior school.

Personally I want my children to be able to form their own opinions from life experiences and information presented to them. Not because an agenda or particular point of view was forced on them at a young age. There are far too many people who only vole Labor or LNP because that is what their parents voted. Many probably don't even understand the policies of the two parties.
05:32pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5009 posts
Pro welfare means left voters are bludging hippies, how?
I never said kids can critical think. The important thing is ensuring kids have a neutral position and aren't taught what to think.
teach them to be a good person & the rest will follow.
So i agree with you there. And i dont think this happened because kids are impressionable. Even if facts were provided, the kids still might want to take action?
as before, would it be wrong if kids wanted to write to government to do more on climate change? I dont think it would be.
Present facts. Climate change is a fact, though they would not have enough understanding as to figure out if our actions are enough. So they need abit of guidance for that.
Refugee kids? Present the facts. Might also find that what society thinks of refugees is largely a false perception based on distorted facts and sensationalised media reporting, after abit of reading.
07:23pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2199 posts
The kids were just given the facts and wrote a letter clearly written by an adult.

what planet do you live on.

A teacher abused their position to make an appeal to emotion in a bog standard political petition. That's the whole story.
08:04pm 18/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12544 posts
The important thing is ensuring kids have a neutral position and aren't taught what to think.


Much of what you say Vash is repeating what others have told You to Think.
You dont seem to be able to defend what you say other than using buzz words.

I wonder if those Teachers explained that when we had open borders many children drowned at sea. Wouldnt kids agree that a policy that prevents kids drowning at sea would be a good outcome ?

Refugees in Detention are not the real problem.
They are the final stage of the real problem.
To solve the problem of people getting on boats to be smuggled here Labor + Coalition had to make it clear that if they do that they will not be allowed in to this Country.

That policy prevents kids ending up in Detention and prevents drownings at sea.

08:16pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5010 posts
Does kids dying at sea mean that having kids in detention is the right thing to do, at this moment? We can analyse the best course of action all we want, and how previous ideas were just as bad, or worse.
But looking at the facts of the situation now, kids are in detention, and they shouldn't be there. And people have the ability to make a change on that.

So i suppose that all topics that are politically sensitive should stay out of schools? Do we still consider climate change politically sensitive?
Faceman would think so.
08:32pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2200 posts
there 100 kids in community based detention on Nauru.

That is not the same as or anything like jail. The ASRC advocates for community based detention as the default option for refugee processing Vash.

We can analyse the best course of action all we want


Adults can, children can't.

you really do live for the facile equivocation don't you. Climate change shouldn't be taught in schools because a teacher abused their position to engage in a explicitly political act on an unrelated issue.

But the short answer to your question is even if you had educated third graders on a complex issue properly (which is probably not possible) a responsible teacher should reject their advance to participate in a petition.

The responsible thing to do would be to send the kid home to their parents and let them do it in their own time. Teachers have absolutely no right to help kids engage politically in the absence of parental permission, and even with that permission should treat with extreme caution.

Jesus H Christ it isn't that hard.
08:48pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5011 posts

Climate change shouldn't be taught in schools because a teacher abused their position to engage in a explicitly political act on an unrelated issue.


Hang on, many reactionaries would consider informing kids on climate change a political act. Because it's a U.N & NASA conspiracy. So we should stop that right now.
I wonder how they would react if the kids were told the facts of the situation, then the kids wanted to convince their conservative parents to write to Government. I bet you'd still be getting a flood of calls to Hadley & another daily telegraph front page.

But yes, i actually agree with you there, a petition shouldn't have been done without parents permission, considering the many political standings of parents.
My main point is that there are currently political sensitive topics taught to kids from both sides of the political spectrum. I have no problem with kids being told about refugee kids, but the petition should have been handled differently.
09:04pm 18/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2201 posts
Has anyone here said teaching the facts is wrong at any point? Climate change is taught in schools, so your hypothetical should be pretty easy to test vash.

The objection is centered on the extremely unlikely possibility that just teaching the "facts" is what happened in this case (given the principle of the school is a self acknowledged activist), and a petition obviously written at a level far beyond third grade was the "organic result".

But yes, i actually agree with you there, a petition shouldn't have been done without parents permission, considering the many political standings of parents.


Ok good.
09:50pm 18/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25584 posts
That is not the same as or anything like jail.
I'd rather be in jail than Nauru.
10:10pm 18/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5012 posts
That hypothetical i meant was in reference to refugee kids instead of climate change. Same situation, but with the kids going to their conservative parents instead of the teacher submitting the petition. Considering the smallsies that cause outrage phonecalls to Hadley and a cascade there on, it wouldn't surprise me.

I'd rather be in Jail too, fpot. At least you have a timeframe of getting out.
10:14pm 18/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7539 posts
I'd rather be in jail than Nauru.


bit of a silly comment

Nauru might be a s*** hole but at least you won't get shanked or anally raped in the shower.

12:54am 19/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25585 posts
Nah, you'll just be murdered by the locals or die of an easily treatable infection instead.
01:03am 19/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2202 posts
Both of those things happened on manus island fpot and were as a direct result of neglect in the camps not community based detention.

You and vash need to make up your mind. Which is it? is detention for children wrong or not.

Life on nauru is all sunshine and lollipops but it isn't detention.

and is that only for the children there as part of the program or would life in jail be better for the native children as well? Cause any time you want to adopt you could put your money where your mouth is.

I don't like the situation, but it is an improvement on what it was.

The kids drew pictures of children behind bars, unless they are going down an experimental route where the bars are a prison for the mind (again impressive for third graders with dropping naplan scores) their teacher lied to them.
07:47am 19/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5013 posts

Nah, they cant leave. It's a prison. It's wrong.
You can sugarcoat it all you want.

In other news, Labor is blamed yet again for the current economic woes. Lol.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/dec/19/scott-morrison-prepares-ground-for-budget-deterioration-blaming-labor?CMP=soc_567


08:22pm 19/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2203 posts
You can sugarcoat it all you want.


Yeah or you could go all tub girl on a public forum.

They don't live behind bars in a jail cell so if by prison you mean "not a prison" I guess you're right. Freedom of international movement isn't something minors enjoy as a right.

I'm sure the people who have to stay in the detention camps would beg to differ as to whether it's an improvement or not.
01:24pm 20/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12545 posts
Trump got through the Electoral College
Its really happening.

That Truck Terrorism is scary stuff.
We dont have Guns available so some nutter could try that in Australia.
12:21am 21/12/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21108 posts
we should be able to carry RPG's to stop rogue trucks

what has the world come to when you can't carry a RPG on the off chance you come across a terrorist driving a truck
01:24pm 21/12/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1969 posts
we should be able to carry RPG's to stop rogue trucks

what has the world come to when you can't carry a RPG on the off chance you come across a terrorist driving a truck


When will people learn open carry RPG is the safest way to live?
01:39pm 21/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12547 posts
the greens = not far enough Left

Internal tensions within the Greens have boiled over, with members of the hard-left of the party grouped around NSW Senator Lee Rhiannon forming their own faction dedicated to the "fight to bring about the end of capitalism".

The formation of the group calling itself "Left Renewal" is an escalation of an ongoing battle between the so-called eastern bloc of the Greens and the group they dismiss as "tree Tories".


http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/hardleft-faction-forms-inside-greens-aiming-to-end-capitalism-20161222-gtghf9.html

have a read of the crazy in that article
02:34am 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5014 posts
When something is crazy to faceman, that usually means its rational ;)
Capitalism wont be around forever. Even Marx said Capitalism has its uses, but once you reach post scarcity, and technology starts taking all the jobs, you have to move away from the status quo.
02:46am 23/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38671 posts
That actually sounds like the best possible outcome for the Greens, just like it would have been better for the Republicans if the Tea Partiers had f***ed off into their own party
03:00am 23/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7540 posts
An Asian lady has just joined One Nation.

08:27am 23/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23507 posts
Capitalism is simply competition. It has existed since the dawn of civilization e.g. The Silk Road. Suggesting capitalism can be destroyed is like suggesting we no longer need gravity. It demonstrates how hopeless the loony left really are.
09:40am 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5015 posts
Let me know when you come up with a way to keep Capitalism afloat when the private capital owners no longer require Labor.
You'd be silly to think this is just another step that will create more jobs than lost, like the industrial age or the digital age.

The left is prepared for alternatives if the need arises. We could float it abit with basic income, but private owners wont like the taxation.
10:19am 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2204 posts
That actually sounds like the best possible outcome for the Greens, just like it would have been better for the Republicans if the Tea Partiers had f***ed off into their own party


o_0

They are talking about creating a formal faction inside the green party not a new stand alone party. Factional infighting in a party with 10 elected parliamentarians sounds like an unmitigated disaster. It worked a treat for PUP and One Nation is going swimmingly.


Even Marx said Capitalism has its uses


Read any yet Vash?
11:38am 23/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23508 posts
You know what creates the wealth to fund welfare/basic income? Capitalism. You really have no clue.
12:50pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5016 posts
Actually, workers create the wealth, not Capitalism.
So what happens when the system in place has extracted & exploited the wealth created by the worker, and uses this capital to automate most private businesses?
01:09pm 23/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23509 posts
you think workers spontaneously design equipment, save capital to buy equipment, manage cashflow, organise the logistic of business, set prices and execute transactions? you live in a dream
01:17pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2205 posts
Workers are the sole source of wealth, but they can be excluded from wealth creation.

Carry on.
01:26pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5017 posts
They do actually... Business employs workers to do all those things.
But hey you didn't answer my question! Capitalism isn't the end game. Technology will make it obsolete, because capitalism relies on jerbs & growth.
01:32pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2206 posts
Your question doesn't understand what capitalism is, because you don't.

Capitalism is about sending goods and services to the person who values them the most. Jobs and growth are incidental to it.

Explain how technology will make that redundant? Even in a post scarcity world the distribution of goods and services will not be exactly equal because people don't value all things equally, as long as humans have different preferences, you will need a system to mediate how they get what they want which doesn't involve hitting each other over the head. Enter capitalism.
01:42pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5018 posts
Yeah, and Capitalism can't survive when the majority have no jobs, and the capital owners have found a way to automate their businesses.
So we have to look at alternatives, obviously, because it's just a matter of time.
01:56pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2207 posts
why can't capitalism survive when a majority have no jobs?

How does that follow from capitalism allocating resources according to who values them most?

Surely you can see that is a non-sequitur.

As long as different people value different things differently you will have room for capitalism.
02:12pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5019 posts
Well, if most people have no jobs, they are unable to obtain resources, in the form of food & shelter. The distribution of capital has failed, so, the system has failed. Heavily regulated, Capitalism may stay afloat for abit longer. All depends if the wealthy give enough crumbs to keep the riots at bay.
If we take full advantage of post scarcity with a community controlled means of production, everyone can live comfortably, instead of a select few.
02:21pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2208 posts
Well, if most people have no jobs, they are unable to obtain resources, in the form of food & shelter.


That does not answer the question vash. Will they still be able to place a value on food & shelter? Then there is still room for capitalism.

The distribution of capital has failed, so, the system has failed.


You mean it might fail if robots take all the jobs at some hypothetical later date.
02:39pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5020 posts
Sure, heavily regulated capitalism there is room. Like i said, depends on the crumbs.
02:54pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2209 posts
Are you really not understanding it?

How, exactly will allocating resources based on who values them most end when most people are jobless?
03:13pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2210 posts
You mean one alternative which has been comprehensively demonstrated to be a monstrous failure, and the the single greatest crime against humanity in the 20th century.


Have you read any of those? Like a single one?
03:51pm 23/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23510 posts
You are obsessed with fairy tales
04:03pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5022 posts
Yes Einstein, and many other prominent intellectuals are also obsessed with fairy tales. Think outside the box abit, society shapes how we think afterall. Capitalism can't be threatened can it ;)
04:10pm 23/12/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2211 posts
Yeah I wouldn't go roping Einstein into your cause just yet.

And if they think marxism is a viable alternative to capitalism they are obsessed with fairy tales.

You are not blowing anyone's mind with outside the box thinking vash. It is completely uncontroversially in the box. Totally un-radical and utterly reactionary.


I take it you haven't read a single one of them.
04:21pm 23/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23511 posts
The ideas you are promoting do not exist in the real world, vash. It's like suggesting everyone should be a millionaire.
05:02pm 23/12/16 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1833 posts
07:07pm 23/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7542 posts
is it blocked via vpn?

I use extratorrent and that seems blocked as well
07:35pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1042 posts
Switched from Telstra DNS to Google DNS. Fixed.
08:05pm 23/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38672 posts
I assume Tor works fine too, and would also assume it's perfectly adequate for downloading of .torrent files?
08:21pm 23/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7543 posts
took me about 5mins to find a suitable proxy site without a vpn - lol what's the point?
09:48pm 23/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5023 posts

Yeah i switched to Google DNS a few days ago. Works a treat.
Notice how Foxtel increased their fees days after this ruling? Coincidence, i think not.

also heh

http://www.tonyabbottandthequestforthesuppositoryofwisdom.com.au/A_Christmas_Carol/


10:12pm 23/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12548 posts
Vash betrayed...
Greens Leader Richard Di Natale claimed that this new faction did not speak for the majority of the Greens, declaring their ideas far too radical and interesting: “Let me be very clear, we are a left-wing party,” Di Natale told The Backburner.

“But we are not rooting for the overthrow of capitalism. That would be silly and excellent.


http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2016/12/23/greens-deny-plans-overthrow-capitalism-rendering-them-pointless

02:33am 24/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38674 posts
took me about 5mins to find a suitable proxy site without a vpn - lol what's the point?
I wouldn't recommend using random proxy servers. Do the Google DNS trick or use Tor.
03:07am 24/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5024 posts
No betrayal at all. I know what the greens are. They are the best option for floating capitalism, for the benefit of all.
When push comes to shove i'll go for the socialist alliance :)
03:27am 24/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7545 posts
took me about 5mins to find a suitable proxy site without a vpn - lol what's the point?
I wouldn't recommend using random proxy servers. Do the Google DNS trick or use Tor.


Ta mate.

I was just pointing out that if a non IT pleb like me could find a working proxy that fast, it seems rather pointless.
10:37am 24/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7546 posts
“There’s no more Left or Right, there are Nationalists and Globalists.
That’s the great demarcation line that determines the fate of the world today.”
– Marine Le Pen
10:58am 25/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5026 posts

http://uk.businessinsider.com/nobel-economist-angus-deaton-on-how-robotics-threatens-jobs-2016-12?r=US&IR=T

A Nobel Prize-winning economist has warned that the rise in robotics and automation could destroy millions of jobs across the world. Angus Deaton, who won the Nobel Prize last year for his work on health, wealth, and inequality, told the Financial Times he believes robots are a much greater threat to employment in the US than globalisation.


Nationalism or Globalism wont solve the coming crisis.
11:02am 25/12/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4556 posts
it'll just lead to new jobs, for example robot programmer
11:44am 25/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23513 posts
Spot on insom. Luddites...
01:11pm 25/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5027 posts
Yeah robot programmers and technicians will replace the millions of lost jobs. I dont think so, but hopefully im wrong.
01:29pm 25/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12550 posts
Im not worried about Robots apart from the TransHuman Robots that will Identify as Humans and will want to be treated the same as Humans.
No doubt Human Privilege will keep'em down.

If Boys can grow up to be Girls why cant Robots grow up to be Human ?
01:51pm 25/12/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4558 posts
why indeed


last edited by Jim at 05:48:40 11/Jan/17
02:17pm 25/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25587 posts
Yeah robot programmers and technicians will replace the millions of lost jobs. I dont think so, but hopefully im wrong.
You are, because eventually robots will manufacture and program themselves.
03:33pm 25/12/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12551 posts
Obama backstabbed Israel at The UN.
The Democrats will pay a heavy price for this.

Christmas Comment: WTF is going on with Rail in this State ?
Labor has no problem adding thousands to the QLD Health payroll but they got no Traindrivers ?
They spent all that money building a new network but forgot the Drivers ?
what is this ?
Yes, Minister ?

Pauline Hanson will make the Trains run on time.
A One Nation tsunami is coming.
12:47am 28/12/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4559 posts
wow, the US actually had the balls for once to leave Israel hanging at the UN

the dems already have little to lose thanks to president-elect pussy grabber
02:35am 28/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38677 posts
If Boys can grow up to be Girls why cant Robots grow up to be Human ?
we've just spent 6000+ years complaining about completely fictional deities taking out their wrath on their human creations so I wonder if perhaps our first instinct if we create our own life forms should not be to just treat them like s***?
03:27am 28/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7550 posts
Pauline can't even speak properly
11:30am 28/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5028 posts
Pauline can't even speak properly


Neither can trump.. Probably why people vote for them. They aren't career politicians, but that certainly doesn't mean they'd be better.

This is the kind of leader we need

05:42am 29/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7551 posts
erm I disagree mate.

Trump can speak his crazy brain farts quite clearly. Pauline on the other hand has that bogan with a speech impediment thing going on.
10:56am 29/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23514 posts
Di Natale is articulate, unfortunately he is backing the losing horse. Trump knows what is required to build a successful America.
01:39pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25588 posts
Trump knows what is required to build a successful America.
His business record indicates otherwise.

Spoiler:
All it shows is that he knows how to build a successful Trump
03:11pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25589 posts
Also yet another death in custody at Manus. Good thing that person didn't drown at sea.
04:24pm 29/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23515 posts
it's a tragedy. thankfully the detainees numbers are shrinking quickly and assuming we dont go back to the open door policy which saw so many innconent people die at sea, the detention population should be nominal very soon. this gives far more potency to our legitimate refugee program.
04:57pm 29/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25590 posts
Yes, instead of innocent people dying at sea they instead die in detention, or even better, die or become imprisoned somewhere else. So much potency for our refugee program I am literally overdosing on it.
05:29pm 29/12/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38679 posts
Interesting perspective on housing market
10:13pm 29/12/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23516 posts
House prices are no longer a function of value but rather of how much people are prepared to pay. That in turn is determined by how much banks are willing to lend.


actually, blame Basel banking rules. Residential owner occupied mortgages have the second lowest capital weighting behind government bonds, which means banks can make virtually unlimited profits for f*** all capital allocation. The only risk they need to avoid is the bad debts.

The removal of housing prices from reality is almost total. Most investment advisers will tell you that the price of an asset is dependent on the income that asset generates.


except rental investors are also competing with consumers who have a very large income generating ability in comparison to the rent of a rental property (paying for their property over 30 years, the investor will need capital gains or will quit the negatively geared property). These two streams of buyers competing for the same properties will continue to drive up prices while supported by record low interest rates.

Rising interest rates - if it ever arrives - will cause the property market to contract. I have just fixed a chunk amount of debt for 5 years but that is more of a risk management strategy given rates are so low. I don't actually think rates will go anywhere for at least 2-3 years.

The market is already cooling (a report for my suburb (Carindale) showed negative growth for the last quarter, but trendy spots will always have strong demand, and that is what the media is focusing on. Once this latest wave of unit developments start sitting on the market, it will get down to who the bank starts foreclosing/forcing sales on first. then the avalanche begins. Some units I am lending revolving finance are on sold 2/7 and now the project owner just has to sit and wait for the fish to bite, or for the loans to run out and then quit the stock.
10:28pm 29/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7552 posts
Yep the unit glut in Brisbane is insane
12:30am 30/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7553 posts
Yes, instead of innocent people dying at sea they instead die in detention, or even better, die or become imprisoned somewhere else. So much potency for our refugee program I am literally overdosing on it.


The mathematics says we should focus on the bigger problem

https://s30.postimg.org/7gridyskh/slide_13.jpg


12:39am 30/12/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7554 posts





last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 02:24:04 30/Dec/16
02:20am 30/12/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25591 posts


The mathematics says we should focus on the bigger problem
I submit that it's possible to take action against poverty and at the same time not lock people up in concentration camps for *reasons*
02:43pm 30/12/16 Permalink
Vash
5029 posts


those crazy liberals, it's just business!@&!@&
08:19pm 01/01/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1044 posts
It's still sickly amusing (maybe not the right word) whenever I see Ana on the Young Turks.

It's like a Jewish host of a tv show called "The Nazis".

08:45pm 01/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12556 posts
The Hollywood Liberals havent made any videos on Obamas backstab on Israel.
Putins response ?
invite the children of US Diplomats to the Kremlin for Christmas.
PWND

The Dumocrats are trying to organize a celebrity concert for the same day as Trumps Inauguration to steal away the TV audience.

That Inauguration is going to be hilarious.



10:49pm 01/01/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3969 posts
Yeah Putin is so classy what with his Veto into the investigation of MH17 where the Russians murdered 27 Australians.
PWND

Trumps Putin pandering is really going to alienate him from America's long term allies, including most of the US.
11:35pm 01/01/17 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
311 posts
Yeah robot programmers and technicians will replace the millions of lost jobs. I dont think so, but hopefully im wrong.


Improvements in technology is the only source of economic growth - ie increased production while maintaining the same amount of labour. Every dollar saved by removing obsolete employees is a dollar spent on new investment and thus new employment. Meanwhile the former mode of employment (now obsolete) and associated production has become more productive relative to the amount of labour required.

And that's why capitlism is a perfect system that will never crash and burn and destroy the world and its climate. Anyone who says otherwise is an over-qualified climate scientist who probably just needs a good root.
12:24am 02/01/17 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
312 posts
On another note, I'm disappointed to come on here and struggle to see anything mentioned about the claremont serial killer. For decades he's been a hardcore PC gamer with a hardcore PC and he worked in telecommunications.

Someone here knows him and has 'played' with him. In fact, chances are he's been a regular on AG (and prob GA... which isnt saying much).

If you know something, say something. It's your gamer duty.

(I'm also glad to have a break from accusations... at least for now. Seriously the peeps at a cafe I worked at back in the day (shortly after the third murder) actually bought me a multi-purpose kitchen utensil as a new years present/joke that had 'serial killer' engraved on it...

True story. The utensil even had a very shiny cork-screw attached. Fortunately for them herion was still relatively cheap at that time.)

Yay for WA police. The most believable in the world!
12:26am 02/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4562 posts
It's still sickly amusing (maybe not the right word) whenever I see Ana on the Young Turks.

It's like a Jewish host of a tv show called "The Nazis".

it's okay, they're taking it back!
12:59am 02/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4563 posts

That Inauguration is going to be hilarious.
https://flyingmonk.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/trump.jpg
02:35am 02/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38680 posts
On another note, I'm disappointed to come on here and struggle to see anything mentioned about the claremont serial killer. For decades he's been a hardcore PC gamer with a hardcore PC and he worked in telecommunications.
I'd never even heard about it until a week or so ago
09:04pm 02/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1227 posts
Im just saying.. Are you Ben cousins?
01:03am 03/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12559 posts
3 victims is SAWFT
I like Serial Killers that dont get caught.

TWO federal government MPs, Cory Bernardi and George Christensen, are set to attend a $150-a-head dinner to help an anti-Islam organisation fund a defamation case. The two Liberal Party politicians will attend the Q Society’s function in Melbourne next month, with Senator Bernardi listed to give a speech.


http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/coalition-mps-cory-bernardi-and-george-christensen-to-speak-at-antiislam-group-dinner/news-story/5e47bedd65548f3d314d562101c4c437

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3749406312fd1567070b583a70a9bf58

Defending Freedom of Speech by having no Pro-Islam/Halaal speakers.


12:07pm 03/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4565 posts
of course George Criscosen would make an appearance
07:28pm 03/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38681 posts
I broke my no news.com.au link policy and clicked on that and was not disappointed about what a piece of s*** article it was. No mention is made of why there's a lawsuit or what Q Society is.

I started looking into it and it seems like the sort of weirdness that you'd imagine a news.com.au article would write about with no explanation at all; a bunch of claims are made with zero evidence in a couple of Youtube videos (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVPngzSE94o claims "In most Australian abattoirs Muslim males only are employed as slaughterers."), but the gist of it is it's a bunch of people that are sad that Halal certification is costing true blue Aussies more money for their meat than they'd otherwise have to pay if it was just regular old non-religion bulls*** meat.

They are also sad that people that provide Halal certification are making a bunch of money off the process. I would love to hear their thoughts about the money made by the Catholic church, or scientology, or ... etc etc in Australia. I am sure they are very consistent.

This seems like a classic case of the market working exactly as these people would otherwise want (i.e., meat manufacturers know they can make more money by selling halal stuff). I feel like their 2nd goal " Insist on clear labelling " is actually a win-win though ; I feel like both "sides" would be equally happy with this scenario (except possible the meat manufacturers, stuck with another dumb regulatory requirement).
10:14pm 03/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38682 posts
I have come to the massively belated realisation that it's not so much the policies of these people that I object to in many cases. I think strong immigration controls are good. I think (simple!!) regulations showing things that are important to consumers about where their food comes from are good (not convinced religious bulls*** is a burden industry should have to bear though, happy for the market to sort that out, meat manufacturers that want to try to capture the white rage market can print "proudly non-halal" stickers on their produce).

It's actually just the fact that so many people espousing these policies are just total trainwrecks of humanity doing it for the worst possible reasons
10:26pm 03/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38684 posts
I found this article kinda interesting: What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class.

There's a bit that is a bit weird though and it stuck out because I read the exact same sentiment in an SMH article around the same time - it outright says the entire Democratic/progressive policy structure is based around transgender bathrooms, while summarising the Republic strategy in the most positive way possible:
Republicans have one: Unleash American business. Democrats? They remain obsessed with cultural issues. I fully understand why transgender bathrooms are important, but I also understand why progressives’ obsession with prioritizing cultural issues infuriates many Americans whose chief concerns are economic.
11:02pm 03/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12560 posts
Should Food come with Religious markings ?

I dont like Halaal labeling but its currently voluntary and it doesnt spoil the product. Capitalism 101 sell more product - add the label.



01:33am 04/01/17 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2139 posts
Gosh. I've been away for nearly 18 months and this thread is still going.
01:52am 04/01/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1970 posts

Should Food come with Religious markings ?

I dont like Halaal labeling but its currently voluntary and it doesnt spoil the product. Capitalism 101 sell more product - add the label.


Do you get miffed about Jews having their own food labels?

edit: Also Finland is trailing basic income and it is supported by both sides of politics there.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/03/finland-trials-basic-income-for-unemployed?CMP=share_btn_tw
08:33am 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2212 posts
so not basic income then?
11:30am 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2213 posts
Does this count as fake news?

Here is an interesting point of view on it.

There's a bit that is a bit weird though and it stuck out because I read the exact same sentiment in an SMH article around the same time - it outright says the entire Democratic/progressive policy structure is based around transgender bathrooms, while summarising the Republic strategy in the most positive way possible:


It doesn't though does it trog. It addresses the more general issue of prioritization of cultural issues over the economic. Transgender bathrooms is just the most prominent example this election cycle.

you used to be cool/able to read.
12:07pm 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2214 posts
the article that is super friendly to the republican working class describes white working class males thusly:

Manly dignity is a big deal for working-class men, and they’re not feeling that they have it. Trump promises a world free of political correctness and a return to an earlier era, when men were men and women knew their place. It’s comfort food for high-school-educated guys who could have been my father-in-law if they’d been born 30 years earlier. Today they feel like losers — or did until they met Trump.


Looking forward to Trump 2020. The lack of self-awareness is simply astonishing.
12:19pm 04/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12561 posts
Do you get miffed about Jews having their own food labels?


Reinforcing imaginary concepts bothers me.
We cover up cigarette labeling because it encourages smoking
But we put Religious labeling on Food products, doesnt that encourage belief in imaginary beings that control our lives ?


12:57pm 04/01/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3970 posts
You believe in a lot of imaginary stuff tho Faceman
02:07pm 04/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23517 posts
For the record trog: Having toured an abbatoir (many years ago) I learned that the first cut must be by a Muslim "priest" (they don't have priests in the Christian sense), for the beast to be considered halal. So the beast is stunned by pneumatic bolt and then its throat cut by the Muslim. Then it is bled out before going onto the chain.

What a fantastic make work scheme.

Finland will scrap the pilot without a doubt. Free money is annoying to people who work.
05:25pm 04/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18281 posts
I work. People who get free money don't really bother me. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean everyone else mustn't like it either.
07:19pm 04/01/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1971 posts
Free money is annoying to people who work.


Are you talking about people with investment properties?
07:36pm 04/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2215 posts
capital appreciation and a payment for existing are not the same thing.

Finland isn't trialing basic income.

Basic income is a set amount of money for *every* citizen. You can't judge the inflationary effects without doing that.

It would also be interesting to see how willing they are to give "basic income" to an unlimited number of recent immigrants.
08:14pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38685 posts
For the record trog: Having toured an abbatoir (many years ago) I learned that the first cut must be by a Muslim "priest" (they don't have priests in the Christian sense), for the beast to be considered halal. So the beast is stunned by pneumatic bolt and then its throat cut by the Muslim. Then it is bled out before going onto the chain.

What a fantastic make work scheme.

Finland will scrap the pilot without a doubt. Free money is annoying to people who work.
hey don't get me wrong, I of course think halal food is magic make believe. But if magic make believe is generating more money for meat producers then it's the free market at work, right?! [issues of animal rights aside which are probably very relevant to many people, although even as someone that eats mostly vegetarian now I find it hard to worry too much about, sorry animal people]

edit: wait, I just realised - can't people who care about this halal certification that much to the point that they're prepared to organise an entire conference about it, just eat more bacon? if I could justify, politically, eating more bacon, I would leap at the opportunity.
09:07pm 04/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23518 posts
hey don't get me wrong, I of course think halal food is magic make believe. But if magic make believe is generating more money for meat producers then it's the free market at work, right?! [issues of animal rights aside which are probably very relevant to many people, although even as someone that eats mostly vegetarian now I find it hard to worry too much about, sorry animal people]

edit: wait, I just realised - can't people who care about this halal certification that much to the point that they're prepared to organise an entire conference about it, just eat more bacon? if I could justify, politically, eating more bacon, I would leap at the opportunity.


i personally dislike halal because i don't like any religious bulls*** being foisted on me, even if it is a bulls*** certification on snags I buy. On another level I don't like that halal certification is generating revenue for a religion. I generally despise religion in all its forms but I find Islam with its bulls*** oppressive rules worse than most.

You are correct, I do ignore it. But if I was a political decision-maker I would piss it off, and Australia would not give a single f***.
09:32pm 04/01/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3971 posts
Honestly if you are buying sausages that aren't using pork fat then you are buying s*** sausages anyway and you obviously support gastronomic terrorism.

Plus at least you know you are giving money to some certification group that may be associated with a religion. I thought you'd be happy with ways to identify things like that. Do you think all businesses that are owned by religious organizations like Mormons or JW's should have to disclose that information as you hand over money to them? Hell most employees of a lot of those businesses don't even know they are owned by religious organizations.
10:03pm 04/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23519 posts
Honestly if you are buying sausages that aren't using pork fat then you are buying s*** sausages anyway and you obviously support gastronomic terrorism.

Plus at least you know you are giving money to some certification group that may be associated with a religion. I thought you'd be happy with ways to identify things like that. Do you think all businesses that are owned by religious organizations like Mormons or JW's should have to disclose that information as you hand over money to them? Hell most employees of a lot of those businesses don't even know they are owned by religious organizations.


to clarify, many charities run businesses especially in aged care, childcare, community care, hospitals, charities and fundraising that generate revenue for their organisations - they do a fantastic job for society - far better than the govt.. but this halal certification adds no value to society, it doesn't help people to know what food is safe, it helps you know what food has been blessed. honestly, that s*** is crazy, and i don't get why aussies have tolerated it creeping into our society.

from a libertarian POV live and let live I guess but it make me mad when people buy something certified by god, allah or kim kardashian, what a waste of money.
10:37pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38686 posts
Honestly if you are buying sausages that aren't using pork fat then you are buying s*** sausages anyway and you obviously support gastronomic terrorism.
this is true.

Occasionally I like a lamb or beef sausage to mix things up. I have been going to town on bangers & mash since moving to London. Was in Wales over Xmas and found a place that made sausages that tasted /just/ like the cheap pork ones you get from woolies. It was like a little taste of home (for like 3x the price).
from a libertarian POV live and let live I guess but it make me mad when people buy something certified by god
the best part is though it's certified by some dude that seems to be making a fortune out of doing it! Religion still seems to be the best way to make a s***load of money if you have zero morals
11:00pm 04/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38687 posts
Speaking of libertarian stuff: Legal marijuana sales in US 'bigger than dot-com boom'.

Some things missing from the article that I'd /love/ to know:
- estimate of how this has impacted the previously-illegal suppliers of marijuana
- estimate of how many "new" mj smokers there are now as a result of legalisation
01:33am 05/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4566 posts
You are correct, I do ignore it. But if I was a political decision-maker I would piss it off, and Australia would not give a single f***.

having to put up with an extra sticker on meat products is possibly the non-est of non-issues

if it is a genuine concern that the cost of halal certification is being foisted upon everyone, perhaps a little market segmentation could be applied - all the meat still comes from the same abattoir, but only certain portions are marked as 'mulim friendly' and are slightly more expensive
03:01am 05/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18282 posts

they do a fantastic job for society - far better than the govt.. but this halal certification adds no value to society


Are you aware that many Islamic churches support their local communities, just like many other well established religious practitioners in Australia such as the Salvation Army and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?


i don't get why aussies have tolerated it creeping into our society.


Unless you're a devote Christian (and its derivatives) it means nothing to most people that aren't Islamic. A Christian isn't supposed to eat food that has been sacrificed to an idol.
It's actually an Act Of Witness to stand against Halal as you are doing.

It's kind of ironic that you detest religious activities so much, yet you're stance on Halal is pretty much an Act Of Witness as you don't seem to care that much about the factual issues. As you pointed out above, you're OK with Jews and stuff doing their religious things because they do stuff for the community. However, you're not OK with exactly the same thing from Islamic stuff because it's Islam...


if it is a genuine concern that the cost of halal certification is being foisted upon everyone, perhaps a little market segmentation could be applied


I believe several companies have stated that the cost of halal certification isn't being passed on, as it isn't all that expensive and well worth the price in order to open up their product to a huge market.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 10:06:39 05/Jan/17
10:04am 05/01/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9360 posts
That was painful to read.

Grammar - it's the difference between knowing your s*** and knowing you're s***.
10:11am 05/01/17 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
625 posts
Halal certification is dumb, but so are all other forms of certification. There's a whole market place of companies that certify goods, yet they only exist because consumers are dumb even to think the certification actually matters.
05:49pm 05/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23523 posts
Are you aware that many Islamic churches support their local communities, just like many other well established religious practitioners in Australia such as the Salvation Army and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?


pls read what i write and not what you imagine, PLEASE.

but this halal certification adds no value to society


I made no mention of the wider religion, charitable acts are wonderful for society and far more effective than the welfare state, despite Islam's oppressive and medieval take on society.

It's kind of ironic that you detest religious activities so much, yet you're stance on Halal is pretty much an Act Of Witness as you don't seem to care that much about the factual issues.


people start to feel strange in their own country when foreign practices take control. Act of Witness, I am not a theoologist, stop being so obscure.

I believe several companies have stated that the cost of halal certification isn't being passed on,


oh ok then thanks food manufacturers for being so straight up with us and in turn avoiding an uncomfortable debate *WINK*
06:12pm 05/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38690 posts
having to put up with an extra sticker on meat products is possibly the non-est of non-issues
well it is for the people who are responsible for doing it IF they're required by law to suddenly start doing it. They have to order the stickers, find a way to put them on, have QA&compliance to make sure they're being put on & stay on through the product lifecycle, etc.

If it's voluntary then they'll do it if it makes them more money. I think regulation saying they must put a sticker on there so people can avoid buying Halal meat as a protest measure is kind of dumb.
10:24pm 05/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1231 posts
I would larf if the stickers were made from pig and beer.
10:28pm 05/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4567 posts
If it's voluntary then they'll do it if it makes them more money. I think regulation saying they must put a sticker on there so people can avoid buying Halal meat as a protest measure is kind of dumb.

so dumb that it hadn't even occurred to me as a valid objection, but yes I suppose there is a small faction that would reject halal meat at any price because it's got demons in it

that must be what pisses George Christensen off so much, a burger that he can't eat
12:54am 06/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1234 posts
Pretty sure absolutely everyone here would eat Halal meat....lol.

It might actually taste yummier.

Imagine if hordes of oka yobo people smashed through the safeway turnstyles every morning to snap up the halal meat whilst the muslims were praying.

and then posted youtubes of it being fed to the dog.
01:18am 06/01/17 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1835 posts
Pretty sure absolutely everyone here would eat Halal meat....lol.

It might actually taste yummier.

Imagine if hordes of oka yobo people smashed through the safeway turnstyles every morning to snap up the halal meat whilst the muslims were praying.

and then posted youtubes of it being fed to the dog.



That would take intelligence :P

Something I've not seen from anyone arguing against halaal so far.

I'm very much in the camp of "If they think it'll help their profits, go crazy. I'll buy whatever is cheaper (given same quality)."

I thought consumer choice was the whole point. Simply chose not to partake instead of whining about it. If there's no market, then they won't sell.

If there is, capitalism worked.
12:46pm 06/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25595 posts
So the Russian interference in the US election is certainly turning out to be a thing.
03:01pm 07/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23526 posts
There's no evidence, and Wikileaks says Russia was not the source, but it's still a thing....

CIA couldn't possibly have an alternative agenda. I watch Homeland, so I know these things.
04:31pm 07/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4568 posts
Trump's rejoinder of "nup didn't happen nuh uh" is pretty compelling
04:35pm 07/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12565 posts
“The DNC had several meetings with representatives of the FBI’s Cyber Division and its Washington (D.C.) Field Office, the Department of Justice’s National Security Division, and U.S. Attorney’s Offices, and it responded to a variety of requests for cooperation, but the FBI never requested access to the DNC’s computer servers,” DNC deputy communications director Eric Walker told BuzzFeed in an email. According to one intelligence official who spoke to the publication, no U.S. intelligence agency has performed its own forensics analysis on the hacked servers.


http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/312767-fbi-never-examined-hacked-dnc-servers-report

Its definitely The Russians or Co2 Emissions


05:08pm 07/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2216 posts
There's no evidence, and Wikileaks says Russia was not the source, but it's still a thing....


Assange is a stooge, and he can say that without denying Russian involvement, merely that the hackers (not even the hackers really just the people who handed the s*** to him) themselves aren't Russian. Could still be paid and authorized by Russia.

I don't really see a strong need to investigate the hacked servers, the data got out pretty clearly. Seems much more important to determine whose hands the data went through.


Even Trump is accepting Russia was involved now.

I seriously doubt it changed the outcome.
06:27pm 07/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12566 posts
You accept that all Countries carry out espionage against allies and enemies ?

If Russia had been spreading fake information or lies that might be of concern.
PP are you against the Democrats dirty tricks against even its own Bernie Sanders being made public ?

The real crime here is the incompetence of the DNC and how they lost the Election to a reality TV star.
07:30pm 07/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1240 posts
He is indeed...a reality TV star...that is true.


Gotta give him that
09:32pm 07/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23527 posts

I seriously doubt it changed the outcome.


The rhetoric keeps insisting that the Russians hacked the election. There is no evidence offered aside from "trust us". A series of leaks exposed the fundamental corruption of the DNC. There is no national security breach, it was a political party which fell victim to a phishing attack.

I am far more concerned that one of the horses in the US two horse race is corrupt to the core and tried to rig the election as best they could.

Maybe there will be some evidence one day of Russian involvement. tbh they did american democracy a favour exposing party corruption.
10:00pm 07/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38693 posts

I like this post about the alleged Russia hack from someone in the infosec community: http://blog.erratasec.com/2017/01/dear-obama-from-infosec.html

From what I've read most infosec people are totally happy to believe it was Russia but totally unprepared to do so based on the s***** evidence that has been presented by the govt so far


10:20pm 07/01/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4569 posts
I am far more concerned that one of the horses in the US two horse race is corrupt to the core and tried to rig the election as best they could.

probably both horses, but I'm sure when the hacked RNC emails are leaked we can see for sure

they will be leaked, right
11:34pm 07/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2217 posts

This is the declassified report the cia etc put forward.

https://www.scribd.com/document/335886606/US-Intelligence-report-on-Russia-s-role-in-DNC-hacks#from_embed

There is little direct evidence of hacking, I'm happy to admit that. Who knows why they are withholding more information, perhaps they don't want certain Russian hackers to know the CIA etc know they are Russian assets.

Putin had the means and the motivation, and s*** got released through people with strong ties to Russian intelligence.

More over, Trump, is accepting their involvement. I'll happily accept that the Dems are overly upset. But that is hardly surprising. Trump accepting it, based on the classified stuff, is pretty damning, because it casts illegitimacy over his presidency. He was flat out rejecting it few weeks back.

My reading of it is, Russia shouldn't be doing that s***, but it wouldn't have been a problem if the Dem's kept their house in order. Wikileaks dumped thousands of emails and the most we got was they were feeding questions to Hillary ahead of time. Hardly Watergate, but still unacceptable.

The issue for me at least is why would anyone be surprised the Dems moved to prevent a populist takeover of their party by Sanders? I'm not sure they are which is why she recovered in the polls. If there was any event which really irretrievably hurt her in my view it was Comey, too close to the election to be recovered from, and if you'll recall he said there was nothing in it in the end. Anthony "Carlos Danger" Weiner got another media spotlight thought. Always entertaining. A man named Weiner has a problem with sending d*** pics? Common.

Not that it matters, but I'd still back Hillary over Trump, Sanders or any others who looked like they had a shot at this election. Politics and corruption are inseparable, all of them, with out exception have some dirt on them. The way Trump is talking of structuring his businesses, it is only a matter of time until a corruption scandal hits.

If Russia had been spreading fake information or lies that might be of concern.


Russia is never not doing that. It's called RT.
09:27am 08/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12567 posts
Russia is never not doing that. It's called RT.


You believe that some News Networks are more honest and truthful than others ?
Never fall in love with a Whore.



10:01pm 08/01/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1047 posts
11:00am 09/01/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9362 posts
They still haven't given any specifics at all on *what* the Russians are accused of breaking in to and releasing. Just vague "info was released via Wikileaks...". Nothing concrete that can be proven.
01:29pm 09/01/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21117 posts
Trump is going to be fun, more fun that George W Bush

George was funny in that cringey way because whenever he spoke off script he would just get lost in what he was trying to say or just completely f*** it up.

Trump is just going to shoot from the hip and then be repeatedly forced to eat s*** when he is found out to be wrong.
03:49pm 09/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25596 posts

Trump is just going to shoot from the hip and then be repeatedly forced to eat s*** when he is found out to be wrong.
No he won't. He just flat out denies he is wrong. Even when faced with overwhelming proof he'll continue to do this. His loyal followers do the same. You may notice this tactic being employed by certain members of this forum.

So once four or god forbid eight years of these denials of reality are over we will be left with whatevers left after he's feathered his own and all his mate's nests. It's not going to be funny. It's going to be terrible and real people are going to experience real suffering as a result.
03:55pm 09/01/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13680 posts


You believe that some News Networks are more honest and truthful than others ?
Never fall in love with a Whore.





this response seems like a strawman. porno pete didn't make any claims as to the integrity of other news outlets, he simply replied to your comment "If Russia had been spreading fake information or lies that might be of concern." with a specific example of them doing just that

nevertheless, yes - it's absolutely demonstrable that some news networks are more honest and truthful than others
04:52am 10/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12569 posts
Im kind of shocked that people actually defend the Media.

You believe in a lot of imaginary stuff tho Faceman

...and people tell me I believe in imaginary stuff.
05:22pm 10/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1242 posts
#Ilovefaceman

Hes so dreamy.
06:35pm 10/01/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7556 posts
#facey<3merylstreep
09:02pm 10/01/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13687 posts
seems like another strawman faceman

it's not that I'm explicitly defending the media - I'm saying your assertion that all media outlets are equally dishonest is not only an illogical response in the context of porno pete's comment, but it's demonstrably false. do you understand the difference?
09:52pm 10/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2222 posts
be less of an idiot faceman. Putin "you're never ex KGB" clearly engages in disinformation routinely. Because it's what he is. He has zero redeeming features. and keep in mind any WWIII scenario will end better for the USA than Russia. Putin doesn't want confrontation, and to be frank, Obama was wrong to let him have Crimea. We should have pushed them out of that.

Infi, I accept that the Russian hacking is a convenient excuse. I currently enjoy a post limiter
(i assume from trog "school the employee of a peer reviewed journal on the purpose of peer review" is responsible for that. You used to be cool man. FYI if you point to my links as confusion about science, one of us is, but it isn't me. gender studies is literally the opposite of science.)
for pointing out the democrats obvious and undressed, and currently doubling and tripling down on, failures in this election.

If you respect anything the father of liberalism, john stuart mill, had to say, you can see that this election result is bad. Total control by one side, as we can see from the press (in the left direction), is a fundamentally bad thing.

I mention comey, purely because he did real damage, that was manifestly unfair, with in days of the election. with that said, Hillary won the lotto and couldn't capitalize. She ran against the least electable opponent in US history and lost. I am yet to see even a semblance of self reflection.

If the current trend on the left of identity bulls*** does not end, enjoy 8 years of trump a*******.

FPOT you knowingly nod your head at protestors of the outcome of free and fair elections. You are disaster of a human being, i didn't say you were being lazy RE: the cartoons. I was saying your moral compass is broken and talking about refugees will not change that, no matter how sympathetic. Your opinion, if you believe these d*******s represent anything beyond narcissism, is worth less than nothing.

You like labor. Reconcile bob hawke saying the electorate can be trusted to get the big decisions right, and these protests. tell me how, in spite of massively increased university graduation, the electorate was more informed then than today.

I look forward to A) smug condensation (cause your a moral tribalist (which isn't moral)) B) retarded (yeah I went there) mental gymnastics.
03:34pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1973 posts

rofl, snouts in the trough. The sad part is they're going to be doing so much arse covering for the next 2 weeks instead of talking about actual policy.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/01/pox-parliamentary-privileges-entitlements/

There's a spectre over Bronny, the spectre of socialism.

My god, she thinks that she is some sort of helicopter using free market queen who was brought down by socialism. This is the liberal party.


03:37pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25597 posts
It's kind of funny how over the weeks/months you've gone from well typed posts which actually bring up good points to barely comprehensible whining dribble that's almost impossible to parse. I can barely even understand what you're saying to me, or even why you're saying it. Knowingly nod my head at protesters? What d*******s and what narcissism? What the f*** are you talking about? I guess you think my moral compass is broken because I posted a picture of a racist cartoon? I remember that. That's the moment when I first thought this guy is losing his mind over an internet forum discussion. You've been circling the drain ever since.

For the record, I don't support Labor. What gave you that idea?
03:49pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2223 posts
If you're willing to live up to those responsibilities and you're being truly honest with yourselves you'd never vote for those three people and the parties they lead. That's why I can't help but chuckle when people say the democrats are disrespecting democracy by rioting/protesting.


Ring a bell sweet cheeks? They are disrespecting democracy. End of story. The time for persuasion (which is the essence of democracy) has passed.

That's the moment when I first thought this guy is losing his mind over an internet forum discussion.


Maybe that is the case, but equally, that is the moment this I thought this guy is addicted to being offended on other people's behalf (which has zero to do with being moral). And is willing to propagate "racist" material to prove mealy mouthed points.

You are a moral weakling. happy to pile on but unwilling to support you own point of view.

enjoying option A then.
04:37pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5031 posts

If the current trend on the left of identity bulls*** does not end, enjoy 8 years of trump a*******.


What a dumb comment. First you say that Trump was the least electable candidate in U.S history, then say this?
It's little to do with "the left of identity" and more to do with how corrupt Clinton was. Trump should be gone by the next election if the democrats get their s*** together.

Also, apparently everything that is against the view of Trump supporters is fake news. Scary times. I guess this is what happens when your education system sucks.
04:47pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2224 posts
read any Marx yet Vash?
04:53pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25598 posts
Oh no, crazy internet ranter #3412 has just accused me of being a moral crusader because I think racism is bad and that asylum seekers shouldn't be tortured. Time to reevaluate my life. I am a disaster of a human being.
05:01pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5032 posts
And apparently thinks that democracy is some well lubricated machine that is always the will of the people and the result should be accepted, so everyone settle down now and stop protesting the result.
It's like saying noone should protest any decision made by a Government because they were democratically elected.
05:11pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2225 posts
Oh no the moral high ground has been surrendered to hyperbole.

welcome to the train wreck. you'll walk the "high road" though fpot. Comfortably predicted your response, just keep that in mind.

That's a no then Vash.
05:15pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25599 posts
If you start reading some stuff Vash you too will be able to regurgitate esoteric knowledge without actually having any understanding of it when you get stuck in an argument. It's a very effective tool.
05:22pm 11/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2226 posts
Yes because actual knowledge of the things you talk about is clearly a terrible thing. and by "esoteric" you mean the foundational text of the philosophy he espouses as the panacea to all modern woes.
05:27pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5033 posts
06:42pm 11/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12571 posts
And apparently thinks that democracy is some well lubricated machine that is always the will of the people and the result should be accepted, so everyone settle down now and stop protesting the result.


Thats what happens in a Liberal Democracy.
How are Elections run in Vashland ?

08:42pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5034 posts


Thats what happens in a Liberal Democracy.
How are Elections run in Vashland ?



Well if you agreed with that deus ex video i posted, you'd know we don't live in a liberal democracy. we live in a plutocracy.
08:45pm 11/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5036 posts

Many of us recognize robotic automation as an inevitably disruptive force. However, in a classic example of optimism bias, while approximately two-thirds of Americans believe that robots will inevitably perform most of the work currently done by human beings during the next 50 years, about 80% also believe their current jobs will either “definitely” or “probably” exist in their current form within the same timeframe.

Somehow, we believe our livelihoods will be safe. They’re not: every commercial sector will be affected by robotic automation in the next several years.

For example, Australian company Fastbrick Robotics has developed a robot, the Hadrian X, that can lay 1,000 standard bricks in one hour – a task that would take two human bricklayers the better part of a day or longer to complete.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/11/robots-jobs-employees-artificial-intelligence

It's coming
11:13pm 11/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25600 posts
Anyone see Trump's dummy spit? This petulant little toff is POTUS lol

Maybe this will be funny.
08:55am 12/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5037 posts
satirists will be out of the job.

http://i.imgur.com/lqF3m0n.jpg
10:01am 12/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23530 posts
If you respect anything the father of liberalism, john stuart mill, had to say, you can see that this election result is bad. Total control by one side, as we can see from the press (in the left direction), is a fundamentally bad thing.


the election result is the will of the people. JSM would say personal liberties must be protected however the democratic process must also be respected for general law making. i have never bought into the "hostile senate is a good thing" argument.

Oh no, crazy internet ranter #3412 has just accused me of being a moral crusader because I think racism is bad


the irony of calling someone else a crazy ranter when you advocate unlimited refugee intake.

It's little to do with "the left of identity" and more to do with how corrupt Clinton was. Trump should be gone by the next election if the democrats get their s*** together.


Clinton was a s***** candidate no doubt, but Trump was always going to ruin any Democrat. The flyover states are sick to death of being treated like s*** and told to suck it up on political correctness bulls*** at the expensive of safety and economic opportunity for their own families. It is going to be a great 8 years for the US. Meryl Streep summarised quite nicely in 5 minutes why the Democrats lost.

And apparently thinks that democracy is some well lubricated machine that is always the will of the people and the result should be accepted, so everyone settle down now and stop protesting the result.


yeah get out there with your whistle and drums, that will win middle america over (including all the blacks and women that voted Trump).

How are Elections run in Vashland ?


There are no elections in communist societies, just starvation and mass execution.
12:16pm 12/01/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21124 posts
yah i thought vash land was communism, no elections
12:33pm 12/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5038 posts
Nay, democratic socialism kthx. There are plenty of Capitalist countries that are dictatorships, and have no elections.
01:06pm 12/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12574 posts
Should be easy to name one ?
01:27pm 12/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5039 posts
China. And don't let the name of the governing party fool you, it is a fully capitalist society.
The economic system has little to do with democracy. Though, Socialism would help ensure a more solid form of democracy as it would be less likely to be tainted by wealthy interests.
The hard part is getting to that point, as the wealthy class ensure the status quo remains to further their interests.
02:18pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2227 posts
the election result is the will of the people. JSM would say personal liberties must be protected however the democratic process must also be respected for general law making. i have never bought into the "hostile senate is a good thing" argument.


What I am more driving at is that the left has gotten so poor at persuading, more than the hostile senate. I am a firm believer in the hostile senate however.

I notice the CNN story is falling apart. Good to see they aren't that much better than buzzfeed after all. This whole "fake news" thing hey.
07:20pm 12/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23531 posts
China. And don't let the name of the governing party fool you, it is a fully capitalist society.
The economic system has little to do with democracy. Though, Socialism would help ensure a more solid form of democracy as it would be less likely to be tainted by wealthy interests.
The hard part is getting to that point, as the wealthy class ensure the status quo remains to further their interests.


Yeah except that little thing about there being no private property over there and all business decisions requiring government approval and there being no actual rule of law. Nice try.
07:37pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25601 posts
the irony of calling someone else a crazy ranter when you advocate unlimited refugee intake.
You'd accuse me of this every time you'd hit rock bottom in a refugee argument. After every lie you repeated was debunked you'd bring this up. And every time I would say no, and explain my actual view on the subject. Then you'd stop posting for a while until a new thing came up and you were confident enough to start posting again.

And here it is again. Strangely just appearing out of the blue this time, though.

It's hard for the left to persuade hard right-wingers because the left only has the truth at their disposal. When people are willing to cling to any lie no matter how fantastic and implausible it may be that they'll defend it to the death then you're really up against something when it comes to changing their mind. How do you reason people out of situations they haven't reasoned themselves into? You can't. It's impossible.

We'll just have to wait till things get so bad that a change is essential. Like what happened with Abbott. Did infi learn from his mistakes then? Nope, he doubled down on his dumb and suggested that the LDP, a more extreme version of Abbott's failed policies, was the way to go. When Trump fails, will he suggest a more extreme version of Trump, or will he learn from his mistakes?
08:23pm 12/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5040 posts



Yeah except that little thing about there being no private property over there and all business decisions requiring government approval and there being no actual rule of law. Nice try.


It's called state capitalism.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gadyepstein/2010/08/31/the-winners-and-losers-in-chinese-capitalism/#799d39d555f2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism#People.27s_Republic_of_China
08:41pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2228 posts
It's hard for the left to persuade hard right-wingers because the left only has the truth at their disposal. When people are willing to cling to any lie no matter how fantastic and implausible it may be that they'll defend it to the death then you're really up against something when it comes to changing their mind. How do you reason people out of situations they haven't reasoned themselves into? You can't. It's impossible.


Vash quite likes communism. Just sayin.

more over the idea you have to persuade hard right-wingers is a fallacy. the vast majority of the electorate in Australia and the US aren't hard left or right. This election is a failure to persuade ordinary people of no strong political leanings. or at least be more persuasive than the pussy grabber.
08:49pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25602 posts
If you cast a vote for Trump or Hanson it could be argued you've instantly qualified for immediate hard-right wing status.
09:23pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2229 posts
So the millions of people who must have voted for Obama (and voted trump this time) became immediate hard-right wingers?
09:45pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25604 posts
Not following you sorry.

edit: makes sense now that you've edited.

Well, why not? How can you possibly describe yourself as a rational human being if you've cast a vote for Donald Trump? I guess they've either instantly converted, or they're stupid enough to believe his lies so they're well on the road to becoming one. What other explanations are there?
10:03pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2230 posts
Hilary being disturbed at their lack of faith?

I don't know pick a reason. For example I don't give a s*** about pussy grabbing. even a little. Hence I like bill clinton.

What ever it is they didn't suddenly join the KKK.
10:20pm 12/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25605 posts
You really don't care that the POTUS is an advocate of sexual assault? I guess caring about that is just another symptom of my addiction to being offended on other's behalf.

You make constant references to others using hyperbole yet you make the KKK comment. If you're going to be a pedantic little priss about the arguments others use on such a regular basis, you should probably also try to curtail your own bulls*** a little bit.
10:29pm 12/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2231 posts
You make constant references to others using hyperbole yet you make the KKK comment.
You really don't care that the POTUS is an advocate of sexual assault?

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I don't care that he said when you're famous women let you touch them in a private conversation leaked precisely because people like you would get your panties in a scrunch. Not quite the same thing. When trump comes out and says "I Donald Trump support sexual assault, its just the best thing eva" we can talk about advocating for sexual assault.

Lets get something extremely clear.

I guess caring about that


You care about saying you care. nothing more.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark that you've donated 0 dollars and 0 minutes of your time to women's rape charities (probably in your life, and definitely since those tapes were released).
I take it your cash and time donations to the UNHCR run to the same total.

You'll call some racist and sexist on message board though. I hear Martin Luther King had a similar problem.

Seeing as you said anyone who voted for trump in a two horse race where not voting for Hilary (either by abstaining or voting for a third party) is practically the same as voting for trump makes you a "hard-right winger", the door to hyperbole was left wide open.
07:33am 13/01/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21125 posts
fpot i have voted for both sides of politics at various levels over the years, does that mean i am instant hard left or right depending on who i vote for?

that is pretty much what you are saying

you are forgetting that sometimes in some elections people vote a way so they are specifically not voting for a person. they don't necessarily care who they are voting for, just as long as they are not voting for that specific person

like the land slide election against Campbell Newman, people wanted anyone but Campbell back. that does not mean they are hard lefties because they voted that way.

at least here Hanson isn't in one of the major parties so she can never lead the country, thang kod.
09:22am 13/01/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1975 posts

at least here Hanson isn't in one of the major parties so she can never lead the country, thang kod.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-government/pauline-hansons-gamechanging-plan-to-win-queensland-election/news-story/0a60256f0836e49063da341485fec0fb

Pauline is calling all QLD racists...

Since it gets discussed a bit on this board, there's some good points put forward for and against basic income here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/12/debate-should-we-be-fighting-for-a-universal-basic-income-in-australia?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
09:40am 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25606 posts
Holy s*** Pete you're a bit of a dumb c*** aren't you?

Donald Trump saying he is famous enough to grab people by their genitals and they won't do anything about it because he's famous is textbook sexual assault my drain spiraling friend. Are you suggesting that the owner's of the genitals he has grabbed all liked it? If he was still just the boss' son acting as a host of some s***** reality TV show this would barely register on my care scale, but the actual reason I care is that he has just been elected POTUS. Why is this a hard thing for you to understand (pls see my opening sentence)?

You're not a hard-right winger if you've voted for the republican party or the LNP at some point in the past. But Trump is different to every leader of the republican party that I know of (post WW2 at least). If you vote for the current republican party that he leads then you're either a hard-right winger or stupid enough to believe his lies. Same if you've voted One Nation. What other explanation is there if that's hyperbole?

For the record I have a fortnightly donation of $40 to both UNHCR and Amnesty. Nothing regular to women's rape charities though. I guess I could change one of the current ones so I can meet forum ranter Pete's high standards of caring but I am happy with them. Bringing up someone's donation record as some sort of argument against whether they really care is a trite tactic I'd expect to see from my infis and broolstorycos. You remember broolstoryco? I had almost forgotten him but you're making memories flood back for some reason.
01:23pm 13/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23532 posts
fpot could be a life-coach in victimhood, it's hilarious.

- have you been wronged?
- do you feel wronged that you haven't yet been wronged?
- have you been wronged in a trivial way but need support in justifiably feeling outraged at being wronged?
- have you yet to be wronged but need help in learning to identify if you have been wronged?

I CAN HELP YOU BECOME A PROFESSIONAL VICTIM

I donate to Wikipedia and Red Cross every year fpot haha
01:32pm 13/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12575 posts
Basic Income is Feudalism.
Nobody DESERVES an Income, talk about the age of entitlement !
This is just backdoor Communism, Communism wearing a Disguise - again

Once Government is giving you money you become dependent on upon it.
We should be moving away from that scenario, not towards it.

Havent we already witnessed Basic Income ?
Government assistance to Aboriginals in outback communities ?
hows that going ?

01:37pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5041 posts
Infi seems to think that caring about others is being a professional victim. How very strange.
What happened to you as a child?
02:27pm 13/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23533 posts
I was taught to get over it.
02:46pm 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25607 posts
As a white male from a privileged 'impossible to fail' upbringing I believe victims of sexual assault, racism and indefinite imprisonment in inhumane camps should just get over it.
02:57pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5042 posts
Very interesting perspective infi. So if your local minister was reported to sexually assault women, you wouldn't change your mind with your vote, or how you spend your money if they had a business you regularly dealt with?
Now if you don't care about that, it says alot about you as a person.

If you do care, then you should definitely care about a man who is about to become the most powerful person in the world condoning such things.

Oh i'm probably being a SJW now. whoops.
03:18pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1049 posts
feudalism
noun
the dominant social system in medieval Europe, in which the nobility held lands from the Crown in exchange for military service, and vassals were in turn tenants of the nobles, while the peasants (villeins or serfs) were obliged to live on their lord's land and give him homage, labour, and a share of the produce, notionally in exchange for military protection.


How on earth is that the same thing as a universal basic income?
04:07pm 13/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23535 posts
Sexual assault is a crime Vash. Victimhood is about contriving outrage over trivial matters.

Trump does not condone sexual assault. I have never heard him say he condones sexual assault. You may try to put words into his mouth or read into to but the voters are smarter than that.
04:21pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5043 posts
A person doesn't have to say they condone sexual assault, to actually condone it.
His true character is obvious to most people before he even said what he did. No need to put words in his mouth, because he said it all himself.

His comments certainly aren't trivial, especially for a person that is about to become president.
04:34pm 13/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25608 posts
It's almost as though Trump is aware of the fact that if he literally says 'I condone sexual assault' he will (probably) be outcast by all of his backers.

Unfortunately for him he is, like you, not really that bright and unable to maintain the charade at all times. I'd post the transcript to the conversation but you'll just reality deny it in any case but the context is clear - Trump believes that he can kiss and grab women because he is famous and powerful. Even if the person being kissed/grabbed doesn't like it they will let him do it due to his fame and power. A man who is willing to abuse this power in such a damaging and self-indulgent way has just been elected as POTUS. Are you beginning to understand yet?
04:57pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2232 posts
Gee its like red meat to a dog innit.

Actually fpot, he is describing a text book he said she said.

Here is what he said.
Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything


here is the law in victoria.
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) A intentionally touches another person (B); and

(b) the touching is sexual; and

(c) B does not consent to the touching; and

(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents to the touching.


I think I'm on the verge of spotting the problem with it being definitely for certain no doubt sexual assault.. Are you? It's certainly possible it could end in sexual assault, but not definite. Consent and enjoyment are not synonymous. Presumably prostitutes frequently consent to sex they are less than enthusiastic for.

I could be cheap and point out you actually said and hold you to: saying you'll grab genitals counts. I could even play your game and speculate about your inner world. You know like how you're ready to jump on the slightest hint of a negative story, because it just "speaks" volumes.

Donald Trump saying (the elements of sexual assault minus one) ... is textbook sexual assault


But on top of it not being clear, I assume, because it's between two people in private, he is exaggerating for effect. As evidenced by the fact he didn't immediately step off the bus and grab Arianne Zucker's genitals.

I further assume the thrust of his comments, rather than the literal panty scruncher interpretation, is that his fame gets him laid. Which is obviously false because Mick Jagger was notoriously condemned to celibacy once the Stones took off.

but you know I'm just a dumb c***. with an opinion supported by more than my feels. I think I'll continue not caring in the slightest.

The worst any sane person would say about it is that it is vulgar (and it would be better if president was not vulgar). taking at as a tacit admission is, well, a little bit simple in my book.

But Trump is different to every leader of the republican party that I know of (post WW2 at least). If you vote for the current republican party that he leads then you're either a hard-right winger or stupid enough to believe his lies


oh so not being a hard-right winger is suddenly an option. maybe they believe he'll rip up nafta. Maybe they don't like Hilary. It's not like she doesn't have serious shortcomings. who knows. But as far as them being unpersuadable, a good starting point might have been not calling them deplorable. Just free wheelin here.

You view Trump as uniquely dangerous, and it is not an unreasonable opinion, but it is just your opinion. Equally, he is different and the US has a robust system of checks and balances, so rolling the dice is not totally unreasonable either.

thank you for your contribution to the UNHCR they do great work, but I was right wasn't I.

Bringing up charitable works is a trite argument but so is calling people racist sexist or hard right wingers from a position of smug moral condescension. So any time you want to lift the bar...
07:22pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5044 posts
Trump presumes every woman he is going to see will let him grab their pussy. Gee, we really should take him on his word for that one!
Maybe there are women out there too scared to come out about being raped, because of his level of wealth & power.
He has been accused of rape multiple times, but i suppose that's fake news eh?
07:59pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2233 posts
I hear if you scrunch panties hard enough you can fit them in your mouth vash.

upgraded from sexual assault now too.

I take it the withdrawal of the accusations are fake news eh?
08:28pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5045 posts

Considering the blind worship of Trump, the rape accusers fear for their lives as they receive death threats from Trump supporters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/donald-trump-rape-case_us_581a31a5e4b0c43e6c1d9834

It's all fake news folks. Trump can't do anything wrong.


08:35pm 13/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12577 posts
lol fpot is so convinced he is privledged that he will believe anything and blame himself for being white.
what a wanker. I bet he has a hipster beard too.

Rukh its like the middle ages when you had the Ruling Class who provided land and prtection to peasants who grew food and paid taxes to them in return for being allowed to work the land, to exist, its serfdom, 90% of society in the Middle Ages in Europe was peasants, 10% were fabulously wealthy and there was no means to move up because you couldnt own anything that built wealth because it would belong to your masters. If you cant aquire wealth how can you hold on to it ?

Private property would end up being shared or be controlled by groups, collectivization. You wouldnt be able to climb out of poverty because you could never build assets, how could you borrow money ?
Basic Income is basically life under Communism.

It would also be AWESOME for stacking in migrants to developed countries.
They wouldnt need jobs. You could bring in huge numbers.
I think it would create massive slums where nobody worked. Worse than what has happened in some European cities. That alone would create a nightmare.

If everyone gets the same amount of money then nobody is ahead ?
No Political Party will ever get elected promising to lower the Basic Income.
That can only end one way.

08:40pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3177 posts

You could make the Trump / famous / sexual assault allegory about most famous people, it's a pretty well known phenomenon that has been happening forever. There are celebrities who have killed people and are still famous. Agreed it's not great in an elected official. Though there have been far worse, look at Silvio Berlusconi.

I'm afraid to say that you seem to be exemplifying what's wrong with the militant left fpot, which has definitely contributed to the current 'culture wars' sadly leaning in favour of the right wing / conservatives.

You're also factually incorrect on a range of points you've made, for example there's proven statistics on a vast number of demographics and states that all voted for Obama twice who have now voted for Trump. I don't think those people really become racists or advocates of sexual assault overnight, nor does their vote for Trump show support for racism or sexual assault. It's more complex and multi-faceted then that, it's really not as black and white or clear cut as you contend, I don't think. Given the far left's love of tolerating ambiguity on certain topics, it's surprising you aren't prepared to understand that.

I'd suggest checking out this link which is a good collection of articles about the election results: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/25/the-media-blew-overall-yes-but-there-were-noteworthy-exceptions-and-here-they-are.html

Tbh, I've found all of Pete's posts to be pretty clear and understandable, the only criticism could be a drop in attention to detail in grammar and capitalisation, etc. To be expected in fierce internet debatez no doubt.

The election result isn't really the will of the people though is it, Hillary won the popular vote by 2m+ or something, and more people didn't vote than voted. So really Trump is like a 30 or 40% overall minority or something. It's an astonishing result.


08:43pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2234 posts
The allegations aren’t entirely implausible on their face


You know its a good news story when this is the opening gambit. Nothing says news like slightly implausible. Unverified.

Forget the communist manifesto, did you read that or was it the first link from googling "trump rape"

edit

I think this needs to be expanded on a little.

the link to vashes huffpo story

the title of the story.

Donald Trump Is Accused Of Raping A 13-Year-Old. Why Haven't The Media Covered It?


it goes on to say (but only after giving the unverifiable details) that the two main reasons are that people who have propagated it have been attacked, and second the accuser is anonymous and so can't be verified.

literally the only verifiable fact in the entire story is

This story has been updated to note the cancellation of the press conference and the dismissal of the suit.


I note this editors note

editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.


actually vash. If I had to pick a story that exemplified fake news. Yeah this would be it. The headline couldn't be further from the truth. They published unverifiable accounts of a pedophilic rape.

the only fact in the entire piece is that the lawyers were instructed to dismiss the case, which is included as editors note after first publishing at the bottom of the page.

That is a catastrophically bad news article you utter dunce.
08:46pm 13/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23536 posts
A man who is willing to abuse this power in such a damaging and self-indulgent way has just been elected as POTUS. Are you beginning to understand yet?


I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion to make at all. But I can see how you would try to conflate the two.

Private property would end up being shared or be controlled by groups, collectivization. You wouldnt be able to climb out of poverty because you could never build assets, how could you borrow money ?
Basic Income is basically life under Communism.


everyone gets to be equally miserable.

The election result isn't really the will of the people though is it, Hillary won the popular vote by 2m+ or something, and more people didn't vote than voted.


Same thing can happen in aus, but hey that's politics. I like the US system even better because it has fantastic checks and balances for non-metropolitan states - prevents the US from becoming a smug-centric government.

The allegations aren’t entirely implausible on their face


what has that got to do with anything?
10:20pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2235 posts
what has that got to do with anything?


can't tell if serious.
10:38pm 13/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23537 posts


can't tell if serious.


what has the plausibility of an allegation got to do with anything? it gets down to the facts.
11:14pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2236 posts
You are literally an alien.

I just want to talk about the facts.

Do you find it hard to breath our sweet free air. Martian.
11:19pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5046 posts
Duhhh PP, like i said, She withdrew because she was threatened by Trump supporters.
Who knows what other threats she received from Trump's lawyers.

Go have a good lengthy read on Trump's personality, his comments over his career, and it's pretty easy to profile his character and what kind of manipulative behavior he would be up to, away from the public's eye.
11:49pm 13/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2237 posts
yeah could be that or it could be she wasn't willing to swear the veracity of accusations.


and it's pretty easy to baselessly speculate on his character and what kind of manipulative behavior he would be up to, away from the public's eye, because I disagree with him politically.


Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
11:58pm 13/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5047 posts
I dont even need to look at his policies, he could be a raging leftie and would still be an awful choice of leader just based on his character.
So its more than politics.

Also, you rarely see people of this character on the left spectrum. Far too common on the right unfortunately.
12:11am 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25609 posts
Yeah I don't think Trump saying they let you do anything is any indication of consent. But okay, let's just go with vulgar then. It's not preferable for the person running a country to not be vulgar, it is essential.These are not baseless speculations being made against him. They're based off the things he has said when he's standing behind a podium, things he has said to the press and things he has said before he was a presidential candidate. He has gone to an effort to put his personality out there and has given people plenty of basis to safely say he is a complete piece of s***.

I don't think those people really become racists or advocates of sexual assault overnight, nor does their vote for Trump show support for racism or sexual assault.
I never said this. I said (twice) that if you've cast a vote for Trump then it could be argued you've been swayed over to the hard-right side of politics or you've fallen for his lies. I'm at work I'll read your link later when I'm back home.
01:11pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18284 posts
He has gone to an effort to put his personality out there and has given people plenty of basis to safely say he is a complete piece of s***.


You got it a bit wrong there fpot. He hasn't gone to effort. Trump is always acting as Trump, surely even when alone. He isn't being Trump, he is acting Trump, always. There is a different, a pathological semi-psychotic difference.

When he says s*** like 'I didn't grope that women' or whatever, he very likely 100% believes it. Regardless of the evidence put before him, everyone else has it wrong. He knows he didn't do it, therefor every piece of factual evidence is some sort attack on his character by media, etc. That's what he perceives.

It's also exactly what he says.

The guy literally has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, probably a combination of the Unprincipled and Elitist types if you care to distinguish types, at a minimum. He likely has some form of Anti-Social Personality Disorder along with it.

I cannot understand how people can't see what seems to be blatantly obvious. Or perhaps that is part of the reason people voted for him, they know he is that above, he doesn't hide that fact at all. In a way, he can always be trusted to be Donald Trump and do whatever Donald Trump wants to do. He is essentially transparent, which is a far cry from the typical highly obfuscated politicians such as Hillary Clinton.


When his 4th year is up and it's voting time if the polls don't favour a 2nd term for him he is going to go off his already highly unstable trolley. He has executive power to do quite a lot, he can launch a f***en Nuke in about 5 minuets and several people have to mutiny to stop that from happening. Real honest mutiny, I think that is punishable by death in the US Army isn't it?

This guy, he has had, allegedly, paranoid mini-psychotic episodes. I lean on the side of that being true. He can launch nukes on a whim!

The people of America handed a Blatant Narcissist one of the most powerful position on the planet, the duck's nuts of everything a Narcissist could want.. what will snap in this guys head when those people decide to take away that play toy from him, he will never be able to attain such heights again... surely he will do whatever he can to grip onto that position. I wouldn't put it past him to attempt to start a wart just so he try push an executive order through granting him an extended presidential term.
04:51pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2238 posts
He can launch nukes on a whim!

I personally am predicting a fallout 4 situation on January 22nd. been great known yall

Hey toll you could borrow Vash's panties

it could look something like this

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSg51N48YSn9fmO1I67LypYT6adZmXxDQsDV1Lwa5A0Ery_eSASJkMjowNx

but with panties.
05:50pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25610 posts
Toll is someone who always treats people with respect yet here you are acting like a smug condescending s***. The exact thing you accuse me of. Which I admit I probably can be but only to dumb obnoxious c**** that deserve it.
06:18pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2239 posts
I thought you'd enjoy fpot.
06:20pm 14/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23538 posts
Toll is someone who always treats people with respect yet here you are acting like a smug condescending s***. The exact thing you accuse me of. Which I admit I probably can be. But only to dumb obnoxious c**** that deserve it.


I haven't even seen Buzzfeed predict Armageddon yet, so that deserves a Chicken Little award - and to be ridiculed. The God Emperor will do no such thing.
06:20pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2240 posts
I also managed to avoid calling him racist or sexist. It was hard, I'll write a paper about the confrontation with my own demons later.

was hard fpot. The struggle is real.
06:46pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25611 posts
You act as though I label every second person that way. The only people I have labelled racist are brool who was literally an apologist for Anders Breivik - a mass murdering white supremacist. The other is of course infi which is based off openly racist comments he has made in the past (middle eastern people are savage and deserve savage treatment was a comment he made in regards to detainees in Gitmo) and his rabid support of Australia's offshore detention program. I guess with a bit of convincing you could get him a downgrade to a hopelessly gullible victim of the media's demonisation of middle-eastern people but I really don't think that's the case. I don't really recall calling anyone a sexist except perhaps brool but again, he really was the complete package when it came to human excrement.

Just seems a bit odd that you'd lambast me for something and then do the exact same thing to a person who totally doesn't deserve it. You do that quite a bit actually.
07:30pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2241 posts
I didn't do the same thing. you like to make judgments about deep character flaws.

I did something quite different. I pointed out fears of nuclear Apocalypse are plainly absurd. maybe a little like attending parties where children are handed out like fleshlights.

But anyway.

just to clarify, what do you term hard-right winger? is a hard-right wing person racist. for example.

and so when you say I remind you of brool, what do you mean exactly. Not racism i take it because you have disavowed that. not sexism because you've disavowed that too.

because you are obviously far above guilt by association in your own mind.
07:42pm 14/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12579 posts
come on guys stop 18c'ing fpot
You are using words that offend him.



07:44pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25612 posts
A hard-right winger is quite simply one who supports hard-right wing policies. I don't really need to explain that one to you do I? They can be racist but not always. Definitely seems to come with the territory to me.

It was only that particular post I replied to and it was only in a rather superficial way. The big hahahahaha before you're reply. Nothing really major and I do apologise for associating you with that complete c*** to be quite honest.
07:55pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2242 posts
Name a hard-right winger who isn't racist. And just for completeness, name a hard-left winger who is.

Thank you for not associating me with an anders brevik apologist.
08:02pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5048 posts
Trumpites thought Hillary would cause WW3, yet some of the comments coming out from Trump's staff, i think it's pretty obvious the risk is larger with him.
Oh, pointing that out suddenly Armageddon will come January 22nd. The dumb doesn't let up.

You guys should head on over to r/The_Donald. You'd fit right in.
08:11pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25613 posts
You know I've been sitting here thinking and I can't really think of any hard-right people who aren't racist - personally or publically. Note that doesn't mean I think that all people who support right-wing politics are racist or even just generally c***y.

I've known heaps of people who claim to be left-wing and yet will still openly use racial slurs and engage in racist behaviour. Can't really think of any good public figures to name, though.
08:16pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2243 posts
Vash you literally owe the ausgamers community an apology.

Fpot I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you are making me work for it man. you know heaps of people who "claim" to be left wing.

Let me give you leg up. Francesca Ramsey is hard left wing and openly racist.

Marco Rubio is probably what you'd call hard-right wing and is not racist.
08:25pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25614 posts
Never heard of the first person but apparently she is some sort of youtube comedian. Care to save me trawling through what is sure to be utter garbage and posting an example?

Knew Marco Rubio's name but know nothing about him. I'll just take your word on that one.

So what was the point of that?

What I meant by the people I know is that they'll post things on facebook that are clearly left-wing initiatives but when I see them socially they will act in a manner that directly contradicts their facebook behaviour. Not really sure what's wrong with using that as an example.
08:33pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2244 posts
Francesca Ramsey has literally said she doesn't want a mixed race baby.

Oh and that black people literally cannot be racist. If I were being cheap, I could note that you hate racism but didn't bring up recent events in Chicago.

The point of the exercise was for you to demonstrate that you truly hold the concepts of "hard-right winger" and "racist" distinctly, by showing you are capable of recognizing racism in a someone the opposite of hard-right winger. It would show, inter alia, you don't use hard-right winger as shorthand for "evil".

they will act in a manner that directly contradicts their facebook behaviour.


Yeah social media is like that. some people struggle to keep just their social media ducks in a row.
08:41pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18285 posts

I pointed out fears of nuclear Apocalypse are plainly absurd.


Why are they absurd?

A full blown narcissist has a significant pervasive personality disorder, one capable of distorting their perception of reality in major ways and escalates with distress/stress. He has shown clear examples of classic narcissistic rage on various perceived character slights. He's impulsive, particularly when he is a raging state of mind and he literally wont give a single f*** about the consequences during that time, or who the f*** he is talking to as in his mind. He perceives himself as better/more important/worth more/superior than every single person alive on the planet. Speaking to a leader of a powerful nation? Nahh he wont give a f*** who they are if they piss him off. If they hit a solid nerve, a narcissistic scare, he'll let rip.
Just wait and see.
The dude is meant to be learning how to president, attending security meetings, getting up to speed. Instead he spends his time raging on twitter at people/events that make fun of him.

So yeah, I'm concerned a person like he has executive power to launch a nuke in less than 5 mins. You'd be foolish not to be really.

I'm not the only one who sees Trump in this way. There are professional, high level psychological profilers who's job is to profile various major players in the world, usually foreign nation leaders, several of them have seen the same thing as I do in Trump.

How many people in a psychotic state have you dealt with PronoPete? Even in a mild state they can have very warped perceptions on events that transpire that defy logic and they cannot be reasoned with at all. Not until they come to the understanding that their reality is warped and should be questioned.

I think PornoPete, that you simply can't believe that a person with such a disorder could possibly become president, that surely the system would stop such people before they got that far. Therefor words such as mine are bollocks.
Except, people like this can be extremely charismatic, can have an extremely
good understanding of human interaction and pervasive power. A Psychotic Savant if you will. Similar to an Autistic Savant that has extraordinary mechanistic abilities, a Psychotic savant can have extraordinary social abilities.




last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:04:31 14/Jan/17
09:00pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25615 posts
Gotta be honest here and say I had no idea what you were talking about when it came to Chicago. Googling brings up stuff about the police being a bunch of jackbooted racist thugs. How did that even make the news or was it something else?

Toll: without knowing the specifics I feel the idea that Trump could single handedly launch a nuke in a fit of anger to be a bit of a myth. There's enough sane people who are above all pragmatic behind the scenes who would never let something like that happen.
09:05pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5049 posts
Toll get out of here with your logic. I will now attack your character with panties, you SJW.
09:05pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2245 posts
They are absurd, because I take it he is going to rage on twitter rather than use the dialing wand on the apocalypse.

they are absurd, because of the two candidates, he was the one most conciliatory toward the other major player in a nuclear war.

And because it falls to person saying: someone doesn't understand the consequence of f*****g nuclear war, to go beyond arm chair diagnoses based on selectively edited media appearances.

*edit*

Fpot add "facebook live stream" to your search terms

*/edit*
09:06pm 14/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38696 posts
Yeah social media is like that. some people struggle to keep just their social media ducks in a row.
PEOPLE are like that. It has nothing to do with social media. People happily walk around with contradictory thought processes in their head & think nothing of it, ever. When they are called out on it, their brain works furiously and often creatively to find ways to resolve this cognitive dissonance.

My favourite examples are often on the Daily Show when they go to a Republican convention to interview random people, and point out something that the candidate said that is (for example) directly opposed to standard Republican principles or something that the interviewee had literally just said.

It is certainly most noticeably on social media but the flip side is that it means people that exhibit these weird inconsistencies can be more easily called out. But of course it doesn't work on Trump :)
09:09pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2246 posts
maybe one explanation is that human people don't fit neatly into ideological boxes, hence ideological purity tests are a little bit oppressive.



Preach it brother.
09:30pm 14/01/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38697 posts
concur. people like simple labels like "left" & "right" because it helps neatly put people into the category of "The Other" (i.e., people who disagree with me on whatever we're talking about right now). I've always hated the whole left and right thing and cringe every time I use one of those terms myself
09:59pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18286 posts

And because it falls to person saying: someone doesn't understand the consequence of f*****g nuclear war, to go beyond arm chair diagnoses based on selectively edited media appearances.


Selectively? Dude, there are repeating examples over and over and over and over. There is so much footage of this guy, so many observations, biographies written by people who had to be around him almost 24/7. It's practically all there to see.

The whole point of the nuclear football is for the Commander in Chief of the US Army to be able to respond to a threat with maximum force if necessary. The idea is that if nukes need to be used they probably need to be used very quickly and there is no time for the senate to get involved. The guy who holds the football's sole job is to assist the Command In Chief to enter the data for a strike, he is not to judge, advise, etc. Only assist in entering those codes. Once they are entered it sets off a chain of events where no single person can prevent the launch, it has to be multiple army personnel committing an act of treason, mutiny, to prevent it.
The President of the USA is the Command and Chief of the Army, he/she cannot declare war on a nation via executive order, however they still have ultimate control of the army and can command the army to invade a country, or throw nukes at it or whatever-the-f*** they want. It's effectively declaring war, just not legally and the senate can eventually over-rule it I think.

Now I never said anything about not understanding the consequences of a nuclear war. I said during a extreme reactionary semi-psychotic (or even psychotic) state consequences of actions are simply not considered, they mean nothing. It has nothing to do with logic and understanding and everything to do with amygdala hijack, an almost total state of control given to the emotional processes almost exclusively. Logical processes are just an adjunct to assist the extreme fear based response reaching goals.


Poke the bear hard enough and in the right places and he's gunna blow. Losing his presidency is a big poke.
10:17pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2247 posts
Selectively? Dude, there are repeating examples over and over and over and over.

of trump not understanding the consequences of nuclear war.

So in three sentences (of thirty words or less) or less direct me to hard evidence Trump does not understand the consequences of starting a nuclear war.

or would be likely, in a fit of rage, to do something worse than make meryl streep a bit sad.

I want to be polite toll. But I am going to be forced to start mocking you.

let me give you a starting point. The US has never executed someone for mutiny. the idea that someone might be executed for refusing a nuclear strike from someone having a (undetected) psychotic episode is (at the risk of offending people) borderline retarded.
10:31pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5050 posts
Look at that ego on PP. I dont agree with you so im going to be forced to mock you! Look out toll.

You don't have hard evidence! So the worries about trump are completely unfounded!
10:38pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2248 posts
So the worries about trump (ending the world) are completely unfounded!


I don't know what your parents did to you, but it should probably be illegal.
10:42pm 14/01/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21128 posts
I agree with toll, he is almost certainly a narcissist. If you can't see that you must be pretty blind. A simple example is his twitter rage at nick kyrgios, that little narcissist inside couldn't ignore it that some no name tennis player wore a shirt and he had to make a dumb twitter comment to feel better, he is about to become the president but that was obviously quite important to him.

Do i think he will launch nukes because of his narcissism? Probably not. Will he do something more drastic than twitter posts at people hacking on him? Remains to be seen, i think in the right situation, probably. I would love to see him get in a biff.

Do i think it is going to make for some good tv when he cracks it and says or does some stupid s*** when someone or something pisses him off? Ab-so-f*****g-lutely
10:45pm 14/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23539 posts
Obama expelled Russian diplomats (potentially triggering who knows what next) because they "allegedly" hacked the DNC. And you are worried about Trump...

The Donald will not fall for smoke and mirrors intelligence shenanigans like that.

And FFS who in politics is not a narcissist - it's part of the job description. You're going to need to try a new angle.
10:49pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25616 posts
Launching a nuke would only mean the end of the world if he nuked another country with nukes. Which he wouldn't.

edit:
And FFS who in politics is not a narcissist
I know you probably think this was a real edgy truthbomb, but all it does is further reinforce the fact you're a complete knob who only sees in black and white. There's an obvious gradient involved when you talk about narcissism, and Trump is obviously on the dark side of it.
10:51pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2249 posts
I'm pretty confident Narcissism is likely to be a reoccurring theme in most politicians. Neither did I deny Trump is one.

It isn't a small jump from raging on twitter to ordering a world ending nuclear strike.

He might just stop at sending Rosie O'Donnell to gitmo.

Do i think it is going to make for some good tv when he cracks it and says or does some stupid s*** when someone or something pisses him off? Ab-so-f*****g-lutely

amen.

Launching a nuke would only mean the end of the world if he nuked another country with nukes. Which he wouldn't.


I like to think of it like this.

10:52pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5051 posts
because they "allegedly" hacked the DNC.


Yeah i would love to see the juice if Trump's emails were hacked. They're all corrupt as hell. The Democrats just had their blinds open for all to see for a moment in time.
You'd be ignorant to think Trump is really the beacon of hope to drain the political swamp.
10:53pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2250 posts
was it a montessori school, or were you denied fluoride?
11:01pm 14/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23540 posts
but all it does is further reinforce the fact you're a complete knob who only sees in black and white.


like alleging someone who burns people on twitter will launch a nuclear strike if they get really mad hahaha
11:04pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5052 posts
ooh hes attacking my education now. Try harder PP. What's next, more panties?
11:05pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2251 posts
so no fluoride then?
more panties

only if you can get them out of your mouth.
11:08pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5053 posts
Or how about have i read marx yet? You're a buffoon.
11:10pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2252 posts



If you’ve been anywhere near Facebook or Twitter in the past several months, you’re probably aware that there is a case working its way through the courts that accuses vash of raping a 13-year-old girl in 1994.

On Wednesday, the woman, who remains anonymous, was slated to appear at a press conference with her new attorney, Lisa Bloom, the daughter of Gloria Allred. Bloom wrote a column about the case in The Huffington Post last summer.

For months, people have wondered why this case isn’t getting more ― or, really, any ― attention in the press, even now that vash faces an actual court date: a Dec. 16 status conference with the judge.

The allegations aren’t entirely implausible on their face. The accuser says vash raped her repeatedly at parties thrown by since-convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, who was widely known to throw wild parties with young women and girls. Epstein was convicted in 2008 of soliciting an underage girl for prostitution and served a small portion of an 18-year sentence.

In a New York magazine profile of Epstein before he went to prison, and long before vash ran for president, vash acknowledged that he knows Epstein. “I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,’’ vash says in the story. “He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it ― Jeffrey enjoys his social life.”

The lawsuit against vash includes affidavits from two anonymous women who say they were witnesses. Yet there’s been little coverage of the case. As one of the media outlets that has not published much about it, I can say there are two main reasons we shied away.
The accuser is anonymous.

The accuser in this case is anonymous, and the suit is filed under a pseudonym in New York. A previous case filed in California used the name “Katie Johnson.” To accuse someone in print of forcibly raping a child is about as serious a charge as can be made. To do that with an anonymous accuser would be an extraordinary step, putting the journalist’s reputation on the line.

One senior national reporter who has covered both campaigns said that the anonymity was the main stumbling block. “If it’s something that’s this damaging to a candidate, you better be sure, and she’s anonymous,” the reporter said, asking for anonymity to talk openly about the decision-making process. “Look, if she came out and she would do an interview, that would be different, but she’s an anonymous plaintiff.”

To go forward with an anonymous source shifts responsibility for the veracity of the claims from the accuser to the reporter. If the person is named and on record, the reporter can argue that he or she is merely reporting what the person is saying, and people are free to believe her or not. But giving anonymity says something different to an audience. It suggests, I, as a journalist, have investigated this person and these charges, and find them sufficiently credible to bring them forward without a name attached. Especially in the wake of the Rolling Stone fiasco, that requires an extreme amount of confidence in the source.

And the way the case rolled out did not inspire that confidence.
The accuser’s public backers have been savaged in the press.

One of the leading organizers of the effort to get the press to pay attention to this case is Steve Baer, an outspoken Republican donor. Baer last made news when his effort to out an alleged affair between Reps. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) and Renee Ellmers (R-N.C.) contributed to McCarthy dropping his bid to become House speaker. Baer’s style is to liberally cc and bcc an endless stream of powerful people, and it usually has the effect of getting none of them to listen.

When I wrote to him Monday night, for instance, to say I was going to write a story on why the media were avoiding the child rape story, he replied and cc’ed Washington Post Executive Editor Marty Baron, along with a host of other media figures.

And Baer, in fact, is among the more credible advocates the accuser has going for her.

The accuser initially filed the case on her own behalf in California, but it was tossed for not stating an articulable violation of her civil rights. The case has since been refiled in New York, under the representation of a patent lawyer named Thomas Meagher. A patent lawyer handling the case hasn’t inspired the most confidence. (He didn’t respond to a request for comment.)

The least credible backer has to be a man who may or may not be named Al Taylor, but is more likely named Norm Lubow, and was apparently a former producer for “The Jerry Springer Show.”

Media outlets that have tried to get in touch with Johnson have had extreme difficulty doing so. The Daily Beast did a deep dive into the case and the people supporting the accuser in July, and came to a devastating conclusion: “Far from derailing the vash train, Katie Johnson and her supporters seem to be in an out-of-control clown car whose wheels just came off,” wrote Brandy Zadrozny.

The Guardian and Jezebel also looked into the situation and came up with equally unfavorable takes. A writer who actually talked to Johnson came away confused about what to make of the allegations. It’s unclear if anybody has managed to speak to Tiffany Doe or Joan Doe, the two witnesses cited in the case. “Jezebel, The Guardian and The Daily Beast effectively poisoned the well on Katie’s credibility,” Baer lamented to HuffPost, accurately.

If you’re still struggling to understand why the story didn’t get more coverage, imagine for a moment that you’re a reporter thinking about spending weeks looking into it. Then go read the Daily Beast article. Still ready to go down that rabbit hole?

But as the reality of the court date increasingly dawns on the press, coupled with vash’s own admission that he sexually assaults women, the case is getting harder to ignore. Baer said that two media outlets have recently done interviews with Johnson, and stories could pop at any minute.

Erik Wemple, a media reporter at The Washington Post, said he hasn’t talked to many journalists about their decision to shy away from the story. “I can’t cover everything,” he said. “Around the spring, the Washington Post was getting hammered for assigning two dozen reporters to investigate vash. I wrote a piece wondering whether that was anywhere near enough. It wasn’t, as it turns out.”

In some ways, given the role of Facebook in disseminating news, it matters less this cycle than any other previous one that the media have largely ignored the case. Open platforms, too, have helped the story circulate. The story that Bloom published on HuffPost’s contributor platform has been shared on Facebook 140,000 times. The piece has been viewed 5,221,475 times since June.

With Bloom’s planned press conference on Wednesday, things might have changed.

But Johnson’s appearance was canceled at the last minute because Bloom said her client had received threats and was afraid of appearing in public.

On Friday evening, Bloom announced that her client had instructed her to dismiss the lawsuit.

This story has been updated to note the cancellation of the press conference and the dismissal of the suit.

Editor’s note: vash regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.


I can't confirm any of that of course. I was just posting what I couldn't confirm to explain why I couldn't confirm what I was posting.
11:14pm 14/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23541 posts
I KNEW IT. This has to be REAL NEWS.
11:17pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5054 posts
doublepost
11:22pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5055 posts
11:22pm 14/01/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25617 posts
like alleging someone who burns people on twitter will launch a nuclear strike if they get really mad hahaha
You're much worse than that. Dull, predictable and lame are three words I'd use to describe your thinking. At least toll shows some imagination in his thinking. It can often lead you to wrong conclusions (such as this case Spoiler:
I HOPE TO F*****G GOD
) but to be completely unable to use it is really going to cost you at some point in your life.

toll I hope you're not stressing over this. Trump, like all presidents, is the sum of the people working for him. There's an army of people just as narcissistic as he is who stand to lose big if he red buttons someone. They won't ever let that happen. Unfortunately they're also big enough c**** to get such a reprehensible POS elected in the first place, so they'll f*** up things in their own way. Hopefully it stays local as possible.
11:41pm 14/01/17 Permalink
Vash
5056 posts
Considering how close we got to nuclear armageddon during the cold war, when the leaders were well composed, it's pretty funny people think there's nothing to worry about.
Imagine if Trump was confronted with such a difficult diplomatic situation. Considering this little brain fart during a debate

11:50pm 14/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2253 posts
yeah Nikita Khrushchev was a portrait of reasonability. (its ok if you have to look that up vash.)
11:59pm 14/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12580 posts
The President doesnt push a red button.

Winners win because they choose Winners to work with them.
The President is going to surround himself with some of the best minds to help him reach such a decision. A Leader that ignores his team in the room and wants to Nuke would be stopped.

For instance here is General James N. Mattis
Trumps very important Secretary of Defense:

http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1b/d8/98/1bd898a8ac04595ba6afbb9507e4ebb5.jpg


There is nothing to worry about.

12:48am 15/01/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3179 posts
Yeah you only need to study the detail of the Cuban Missile Crisis to realise how depressingly close we came to all out nuclear war, and how it could have happened by accident from any number of miscalculations by either side, quite easily. Furthermore there were parties on both sides intent on going to nuclear war, despite the irrationality of it. Of course Khrushchev was not famed for his reasonability, however it was his desire to avoid a nuclear war that helped keep them back from the brink and avoid it all together. Many historians theorised this was because he had just lived through WW2 and desired peace.

It's one of Robert McNamara's eleven lessons, which came specifically from his time in that crisis: 'Rationality will not save us'. Defo recommend watching his documentary The Fog of War (98% on the Rotten Tommatoes). I wouldn't be so quick to put your faith in the rationality of various people and systems. Check out the first 20 minutes for a great bit on the Cuban crisis.

Fog Of War Eleven Lessons From The Life Of Robert S. Mcnamara from DCTV on Vimeo.



I personally think the risk of nuclear war is much higher than before, not to mention more conflict and possibly a great power conflict, that is the real danger of our time now. We've got two superpower potentials (and defo wannabes) starting to test the US global dominance and ideally wanting to break out of it, Trump really isn't the leader you wanted for this period, essentially a bucketload of uncertainty into a fragile complex system. Though admittedly if there was any time to fight a conventional war with Russia and China, it's now, as the US could probably win. From what I've seen on the military feeds the gist of their plan was to stay ahead militarily and try to win diplomatically for the next 20-30 years, during which they were predicting another Russian collapse or upheaval, and a significant China decline for a bunch of socioeconomic reasons. Resulting in no need to fight any actual wars, and continued dominance.

Some kind of conflict like that would all spiral out of some minor scenario, like Russian aggression in the Baltics testing NATO. I don't think Trump would just have a fit and launch nukes tbh.

It was reassuring to see all of Trump's defence picks, including Mattis, distance themselves pretty significantly from his foreign policy rhetoric in their cabinet hearings, they were all far more in line with the current policy.

The doomsday clock has us a 3 minutes to minute: http://thebulletin.org/timeline

I will say, it's astonishing to me that some right wing / conservatives now side with Putin on some of these things, like somehow imagining Clinton would be more likely to start WW3, it literally boggles the mind.
02:27am 15/01/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21129 posts
And FFS who in politics is not a narcissist - it's part of the job description.


Absolutely - Tony Abbott, Kevin Rudd both clearly also on the narcissism scale.

But trump is clearly something else on the scale of political narcissism.

07:17am 15/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23542 posts
Trump really isn't the leader you wanted for this period,


yeah you need someone more like Obama who lets other countries violate sovereignty and annex territory
09:45am 15/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18288 posts

toll I hope you're not stressing over this. Trump, like all presidents, is the sum of the people working for him. There's an army of people just as narcissistic as he is who stand to lose big if he red buttons someone. They won't ever let that happen.


Oh I'm not stressing, what happens will happen. It would take a couple significant strongly stressful events to put him in that extremely distressed state, much more distressed than getting mocked on CNN. The threat of Losing his presidency, if done in a way that is utterly humiliating may be on that level.

What's more likely to happen is that he will continuously shoot his mouth off impulsively, impulsively flex his power muscles with aggressive maneuvering of military forces just because he wants to show how awesomely great and super smart he is, pissing off foreign countries and damaging international relations and destabilizing the world in general.

These psychotic personality disorders interest me a great deal. It's so fascinating what the mind is capable of doing to itself when distressed enough and the various outcomes of that.


And FFS who in politics is not a narcissist - it's part of the job description.


There is a difference of a person having narcissistic traits, of which many politicians have as it seems to be advantageous in that industry (as well as CEO's and other high level positions) to someone having a full blown personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder on the psychotic spectrum. A lot of randoms on the internet say s*** like 'my ex was a narcissist' when they actually may have only traits, not the actual disorder.
Much like Autistic Spectrum Disorders, psychotic disorders seem to be on a spectrum but symptoms that tend be the opposite of autistic symptoms in many ways and can lead to significant impairment to the point of even resembling that of autistic impairment.
Just like Autistic spectrum disorders have high functioning sufferers (High functioning Autism and/or Asperger's Syndrome for example) psychotic spectrum disorders also have high functioning sufferers.
Then you have the savants, a high functioning psychotic savant can appear to be very capable socially.

Normally a person who sufferers from a psychotic personality disorder is quite self destructive in a variety of ways, limiting the damage they do to others. They tend to be highly unaware of their self and how their actions impact the world. This leads to having significantly impaired reasoning and continually misinterpreting cause and effect and miss-assigning too much meaning to poorly unrelated information. Interestingly it seems that the higher level suffers tend to be much more self-aware than low-level suffers and this somewhat mitigates this incorrect meaning assignment effect.
Untreated, they are often too impulsive in a variety of situations to maintain a stable life and retain close-to-normal functionality. The higher level suffers can contain their impulsive actions better and are better able to function in society, although will often appear eccentric. Socio-economic situations will modulate the severity of impact such disorders have on a persons life. Sadly, these disorders seem to have a strong hereditary component and run in families. As such family wealth of sufferers tend to be lower, limiting their chances of having a happy healthier, treated life.

A high level psychotic savant though, they can do a significantly better job of functioning in society, to the point of out-performing neurotypical people in social arenas. They seem to have a knack for getting their way, getting people to agree with them, getting people to believe whatever they want, etc. The archtypical high level Sociopaths/psychopaths that are able to pose as normal healthy, highly charismatic people are an example. Most people labeled as sociopaths/psychopaths are quite self-destructive and have significant difficulties in learning from mistakes. The savant though, they learn from their social mistakes very well and learn to be hyper astute in dealing with people. .. until they are not.

Narcissists are highly self-centered, this is the defining feature that when combined with other core psychotic symptoms, labels them with the disorder when sever enough. A person with similar core psychotic symptoms but has a poor sense of self may instead present with borderline personality disorder. A person with similar symptoms but with significantly greater impairment in assigning meaning to external sources will attract schizophrenia type labels.

I'm fairly certain that Trump has the narcissistic personality disorder and is very high functioning nearing a savant level, however he clearly has distortions of perception or is extremely talented in convincing people of his lies in such a way that he can absurdly deny clearly factual events and blatantly get away with it, often, on mass. His massive family wealth has allowed him to get away with living untreated and unchallenged, significantly strengthening his delusions of grandeur and allowing his mind to better distort his reality to compensate for his massive internal insecurities. The guy is certainly on the psychotic spectrum and possibly totally unaware of it.
11:20am 15/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18289 posts

The President doesnt push a red button.


It's a metaphor silly.

No, he has a computer system near-by, always, carried by a highly trained soldier commanded to aid the president in using the computer to launch a nuclear strike if and when the president deems it necessary.

That is essentially a big red button.


A Leader that ignores his team in the room and wants to Nuke would be stopped.


This is something you believe, because surely how could it be possible to not have that? I mean that's how the world must work .. surely?
Except it certainly doesn't have to at all. There are clear examples of this sort of problem in history.
Adolf Hitler for instance, he was also on the psychotic spectrum and look what he got away with. But surely people like that would be stopped right? ....
In many cases they probably do, however some can and do slip through the cracks and they can cause massive, massive damage just as Hitler did. Trump is in a position to do a similar thing, but instead has access to much more destructive power than Hitler had.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 11:25:42 15/Jan/17
11:22am 15/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2254 posts
Adolf Hitler


Thanks for the doco Viper, but It is hardly painting Khrushchev in a positive light. He was willing to play chicken with nukes until he was offered something he could sell politically in the USSR?

He was a certainly an improvement on Stalin (but lets just reflect on where that bar is set), and less belligerent than Brezhnev. But for the great lover of peace, starting a nuclear arms race and parking 100 of em 90 miles from the US mainland under the control of a lunatic, was, shall we say, a "flawed" strategy.

*edit* Finished it Viper. really a great recommendation, the dude had a keen intellect. The world could use more statespeople of that quality.

The point that the world is an unstable state currently and trump not being the ideal man for the job is well made.

But toll is making the claim that we are a bad poll result or putin calling him farty pants from the end of the world, and that the orders will make it the whole way down the chain of command because not following the order will end in execution. Which is, to put it lightly, utterly hysterical.
11:53am 15/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23543 posts
You just have to roll your eyes and then life goes on. Histrionics is also a mental disorder.
12:52pm 15/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18290 posts

But toll is making the claim that we are a bad poll result or putin calling him farty pants from the end of the world, and that the orders will make it the whole way down the chain of command because not following the order will end in execution. Which is, to put it lightly, utterly hysterical.


It takes multiple people in seperate areas to commit an act of treason to stop the order, do you not know how the system works at all PornoPete and just shooting off your mouth in an overly emotional defense of an insecurity that you may be wrong?

Also, I didn't claim that is all it takes to set him off to that level, I pointed out that a person that is in one of the most powerful positions on the planet has documented cases of erratic behaviour, extreme over-reactionary outbursts, impulsive behaviour, utter disregard for rules and regulations if he can get away with it, etc. That he has shown that simple mockery, that all presidents receive, is enough to attract his anger and react impulsively at all hours of the day instead of doing his official duties (because that sort of stuff is boring and he is super smart and doesn't have to worry about it, just because it's expected of him, pfft f*** the rules, they don't apply to me, Trump the greatest man alive).

You haven't actually given any reason to dispute what I've said except using what is essentially name calling techniques? So please PornoPete, if you are just going to reply with inane memes then don't bother hey.

The reference to Hitler was due to Faceman disputing that psychotic individuals couldn't possibly be a leader of a powerful nation, that they would be stopped before that happened, when the facts are it's happened in history, multiple times, with Hitler being a recent example.


04:06pm 15/01/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2256 posts


too far?
04:58pm 15/01/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12581 posts
The reference to Hitler was due to Faceman disputing that psychotic individuals couldn't possibly be a leader of a powerful nation, that they would be stopped before that happened


Why didnt Saddam use his Chemical arsenal against America in the first War ?
Why didnt Saddam use Scuds with Chemical Warheads on Israel ?
No matter how crazy you are no Leader wants to have their Country wiped off the map.

Thats why they call it Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)
Do you seriously believe Trump is going to do that ?
*giggles*
06:42pm 15/01/17 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23546 posts
But that's too sensible and cannot create a sensational end of the world headline. Nuclear disaster sounds better.
07:19pm 15/01/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1246 posts
Histrionics....nice find facey.
07:19pm 15/01/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3180 posts
In the grander context, but of course Pete, just saying in the context of nuclear war Khrushchev didn't want to do it and that rationality helped avoid it. The fact that he needed to push that brinkmanship so far so as to be able to get a deal to sell to the hardliners in Russia to accept not going to nuclear war is an example of how the systems can push us towards war rather than from it.

Mutiny to stop a nuclear strike isn't unheard of, it happened during the Cuban missile crisis on the Russian side. A captain of a submarine ordered a nuclear torpedo strike but one of the senior officers refused to do it.

Thank you Vasili Arkhipov, the man who stopped nuclear war
09:03pm 15/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18291 posts

Do you seriously believe Trump is going to do that ?


When in a rational state of mind? Hell no. When someone is in a psychotic state of mind though? Who the f*** knows what they will do.

Do you think our systems are so perfect that a person who has potential to have a psychotic episode is 100% guaranteed to not be in a position to do such things?

Do you think that in the closing months of the WW2 that Hitler would not have launched nukes when he was assured his power was being taken away? A man who committed suicide rather than face that? Imagine the s*** going through that dudes head.. he was an example of a person in a psychotic state of mind.

Here, have a read of this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/the-mind-of-donald-trump/480771/

It's a good read regardless of what you think. Well written articles are a joy.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 07:29:42 16/Jan/17
07:22am 16/01/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18292 posts
Since I probably haven't been clear, what I write is among the worst case scenario's. That Trump has a psychotic break and unleashes destruction on scale unseen. I'm sure many of you have witnessed at least one person go on a self-destructive binge, often causing damage to those around them in the process.
S***, I've experienced it, and that was mild.

What is much more likely to happen is a repeated pattern of stress induced minor psychotic episodes