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BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1329 posts


You say chime in but the story is from 2011. It would interesting to hear his opinion on this as opposed to talk back generally.



I'm sure in 2015 he will be like "oh yeh i love QandA, its awesome"
02:24pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17683 posts
Good Ol David Leyonhjlm will set this place right again.

This is how a Liberal should be, not like Tonez.
02:27pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25166 posts
Politics have changed dramatically since then so it's possible. The problems Labor experienced seem almost quaint compared to the absolute nonsense that is going on now.

Kind of reminds me of the start of Breaking Bad compared to what happens in the final seasons. When the drama is happening in season one you're thinking to yourself this is pretty nasty. When you're into the later seasons you look back and almost laugh at how inconsequential it all was. School halls and pink batts compared to torturing asylum seekers in concentration camps (Labor started this I know but the LNP escalated it) and rampant science denialism.
02:33pm 26/06/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1727 posts
I'm sure in 2015 he will be like "oh yeh i love QandA, its awesome"


who can tell, maybe in 2020 you can quotemine him over it.
02:34pm 26/06/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1330 posts
Good Ol David Leyonhjlm will set this place right again.

This is how a Liberal should be, not like Tonez.


Well, the LDP is a real Liberal party. The coalition are anything but Liberal now.
02:38pm 26/06/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1728 posts
Well, the LDP is a real Liberal party. The coalition are anything but Liberal now.


you heard it here first folks.
02:40pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22701 posts
So again you're saying you're unable to produce anything substantial to back up your opinion and instead will just continue to drone on with your usual whiney dross?

By the way I don't have an opinion on QANDA because I don't watch it.


I don't either. Awesome.
02:44pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25167 posts
Then uhhh, how do you know all these things you're saying? What the f***?
02:54pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22704 posts
Then uhhh, how do you know all these things you're saying? What the f***?


you can read the lineup each week on their website on the internet.
03:00pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25170 posts
So you've established that the show is a joke and rubbish and that the host is bias and froth froth froth just by reading the guest lineup? What a virile and robust critical thinker you are.
03:26pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1770 posts

Non paywalled article about the LDP:

http://www.3aw.com.au/news/senator-leyonjhelm-declares-war-on-the-nanny-state-with-parliamentary-inquiry-20150626-ghyaf8.html

And the senator has bicycle helmets firmly set in his sights.

"It really annoys me that I have to put a helmet on otherwise some police officer somewhere is going to book me, and it's going to cost me money," he said.

"It's my head and I'm not hurting anyone else."


I think there's a lot that progressive parties could be working with him on. Gay marriage, helmet freedom laws, decriminalising drugs etc.

Helmet laws are so f*****g dumb in this country. Maybe we're smarter than the entire world? I don't think so.


03:29pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22707 posts
So you've established that the show is a joke and rubbish and that the host is bias and froth froth froth just by reading the guest lineup? What a virile and robust critical thinker you are.


the media reports every week summarising what transpires on the show are helpful.
03:30pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25171 posts
Hey, they wouldn't happen to be media reports produced by News Corp where a pattern of bias and utterly terrible journalism has been solidly established, would it?
03:37pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22708 posts
03:44pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25172 posts
There is absolutely no evidence of any bias or unbalanced discussion on QANDA in that article. Care to point it out to me?
03:53pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22709 posts
i am just saying that each week, there is coverage in many media outlets. i don't need to watch it to know what goes on in the show each week.
03:58pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25173 posts
I guess you're right - reading second hand accounts will give you a basic overview of what happened in the show. You have an incredibly strong opinion of the show and have accused the host of bias. For a reasonable person to develop such an opinion one would think they'd have to watch the show plenty to gather the evidence for such an opinion.

This is another example of you caught out being dumb, and as always, very entertaining to watch you fret and flounder for your last five or so posts where you make up some weak bulls*** as you go along to try and get out of it.
04:05pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39511 posts
Helmet laws are so f*****g dumb in this country. Maybe we're smarter than the entire world? I don't think so.


lolz, thank f*** for mandatory helmet laws.

04:12pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22710 posts
I used to watch it and stopped, I had high hopes for it when it was announced but it's "lefty lynch mob" mentality was frustrating. I am not going to obtain a transcript of every episode and collate quotes to satisfy your desire for an academic paper. The show is dissatisfying as it has a predetermined agenda every week to promote left-wing policy and to criticise the current government.

The Bolt Report is far more balanced. He always has equal coverage from both sides of the political spectrum and they discuss matters in a respectful manner - not the hated-filled vitriol you get from leftist guests on QANDA. QANDA reminds me of the discussions forums that would be held by the Student Union back in uni days, lots of disrespect and shouting others down.

It's amusing how you assess anything you disagree with as dumb. fpot the "dumb judge". now that's a laugh!
04:15pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25174 posts
The Bolt Report is far more balanced
Yeah, just be quiet and sit down you wretched little clown.

I honestly don't know what to think about helmet laws. For children I guess it is a no brainer. I remember Ha posted some pretty solid evidence against the effectiveness of helmets preventing death in bicycle accidents.
04:19pm 26/06/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38119 posts
not the hated-filled vitriol you get from leftist guests on QANDA
is there an example of some of this "hate-filled vitriol" from "leftist" guests I can see somewhere?
04:59pm 26/06/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38120 posts
"It's my head and I'm not hurting anyone else."
spoken like someone who doesn't understand who pays for his healthcare
05:07pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17684 posts
You can also gather a strong opinion on topics and events based on the views of trusted people, although you would have to be more open to questioning those opinions if presented with even a small amount reasonable evidence against it.

I don't watch QANDA much at all, from the snippets that I have seen it did seem quite left biased.
However it is certainly no-where near as bad as Tonez makes it out to be 'heads should roll' What a goose. I wonder if he meant that as a pun due to the content he felt totally betrayed by. Thank god this guy and his friends don't have the power to detain or denounce people arbitrarily....
05:08pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17685 posts

spoken like someone who doesn't understand who pays for his healthcare


To be fair, I'm pretty Mr Leyonhjlm would have private health care with hospital cover, so he kind of does pay for his healthcare.
05:09pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4533 posts
Bolt report more balanced? Hahahahahhahahaha
05:19pm 26/06/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38121 posts


To be fair, I'm pretty Mr Leyonhjlm would have private health care with hospital cover, so he kind of does pay for his healthcare.
oh was it that guy that said it? the bloke that hates wind farms because reasons?
05:49pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6763 posts
oh was it that guy that said it? the bloke that hates wind farms because reasons?


No, no, not that guy. You're thinking of the guy that has doubts that Aboriginal people were here in Australia first.
06:04pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25176 posts
I thought you were talking about the guy who proposed a budget with a $250 million shortfall and said because of the measures he has taken people will simply give that money away to fill the gap.
06:09pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
295 posts
Seems like we're reaching a point where a community forum that allows the scrutinising and direct questioning of the political, religious, whatever establishment is considered leftist - a political device in its own right.

It's also fair to say that conservative or right wing or authoritarian governments hate that s***, so maybe the haters have a point.

If that's true then I'd rather be a leftist. Frankly these right wing arguments aren't very good, but that would also be the point.

The real pity is that the net effect is an even more polarised community... so who really wins.

F*** all this s***.
07:01pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22712 posts
is there an example of some of this "hate-filled vitriol" from "leftist" guests I can see somewhere?


great question!

john howard has shoe thrown at him by audience member



Abbott called a "tit": Link.protestors disrupt QANDA: link.

on a tangent, university protestors physically threaten Julie Bishop. article.

why is the left always shouting down and abusing those they disagree with?

Leftist guests are frequently using snide remarks, as does Tony Jones, all backed by an applauding audience not really there to enjoy civilised discussion but to enjoy the occasional zinger and take a few cheap shots at the Coalition guest foolish enough to turn up, all it appears now to be orchestrated by the Q&A producers. So much for spontaneous.
07:34pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17688 posts

oh was it that guy that said it? the bloke that hates wind farms because reasons?


Yeah, the dude is pretty emotionally invested in wind farms causing people to be sick. I don't think he will back out of that one anytime soon.
He also wants guns.

He is actually a Liberal person for the most part, unlike the Liberals who are much more about making rich people rich.
07:55pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6764 posts
john howard has shoe thrown at him by audience member


That wasn't leftist, you can see quite clearly he threw both his left and right shoe at Howard.

Abbott called a "tit"

Malcolm Fraser once gave a similar character assessment of Tony Abbott on the same show.
Also, I'm sure Malcolm Turnbull would love to tell us what he thinks of Tony Abbott, but he can't comment on operational matters or something.
07:58pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4396 posts
"reality has a well-known left bias"
08:10pm 26/06/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38122 posts
Abbott called a "tit": Link
not sure if I think calling someone a 'tit' is hate filled vitriol (the rest of the article appears to be about her wishing people didn't hate jews or muslims)
09:23pm 26/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22717 posts
listen to any episode germaine greer is in (and they seem to keep inviting her back). i really wished i had catalogued all the bulls*** Q&A guests came up with over the the first few seasons for you to review but instead I gave up and stopped watching.
09:31pm 26/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25177 posts
How is the protest their fault?
09:50pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4534 posts
Maybe the Abbott government really are just s***.
That's the problem here. This left vs right stuff. It's dumb. This government is the worst we've ever had, thats a fact.
10:49pm 26/06/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1771 posts
spoken like someone who doesn't understand who pays for his healthcare


Trog I think you have travelled a bit? Why have mandatory helmets for bicycles if you are not a part of the lycra brigade?

Why do I need a helmet to go to the shops at 10kph on quiet streets?
12:27am 27/06/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38123 posts

Why do I need a helmet to go to the shops at 10kph on quiet streets?
here's my rationale - putting on a helmet is such a tiny, tiny effort and has the potential to save you from serious injury or possibly even death. I think while other taxpayers are responsible for paying for your healthcare, citizens have a duty to try to act in a way as to minimise their burden on the system. I think putting on a helmet is a low cost, low effort, low stress mechanism for reducing risk (yes, I'm aware there is research that it may or may not reduce it a lot, but all the evidence says it does provide some benefit; how much is an argument for academics).

I just see it as the same kind of thing as seatbelts.

In the US I'm happy for people to not wear helmets (where I am even motorcyclists don't wear helmets) because they pay for their own healthcare (I wear a helmet when I ride) and assume the burden of financial risk (largely) themselves.

I would add that in other countries I have been in where bike riding is a bigger deal (i.e., european ones) there is a MASSIVELY different culture towards bikes. In the Netherlands bike riders can never be at fault, which makes drivers a lot more careful. (Interestingly this came up in Melbourne recently but it looks like it's unlikely to get adopted in similar form: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-25/laws-drivers-responsible-cyclist-crashes-unlikely-vicroads/6571766 ).

That kind of culture - bikes as first class citizens - is significantly different than the climate here in Australia (and in the US) where bikes seem to be seen largely as an annoyance. (edit: by drivers)

I'm not going to lose my s*** about it because I do see the civil liberties argument. But it's just such an easy thing to do.
10:09am 27/06/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9016 posts
not sure if I think calling someone a 'tit' is hate filled vitriol (the rest of the article appears to be about her wishing people didn't hate jews or muslims)

In the case of TA, would it matter?

Trog I think you have travelled a bit? Why have mandatory helmets for bicycles if you are not a part of the lycra brigade?

Why do I need a helmet to go to the shops at 10kph on quiet streets?

A few reasons.
  1. Low-speed incidents have just as much chance of serious injury as many high-speed accidents.

  2. I've always got annoyed when parents allow their kids to ride their bike in their own street because they're close to home, so they think they're somehow safer. The ground isn't any softer just because you're within 500m of home

  3. Given the risk versus reward - that is, permanent head injury of a serious nature, with an actual lower reduction in death - that is, they're not AS likely to reduce death in an accident (they'll reduce it, but an accident that's going to kill you is still highly likely to kill you), but a massive reduction in rates of serious head injury, why would you not wear a helmet

  4. How the hell is it that arduous that the simnple act of wearing a helmet is such a bloody problem??!



I just don't get why you would ride a bike without a helmet. When I go riding there's three things I never go riding without: Gloves, Glasses, Helmet. And yes, glasses, even though my vision is now super awesome after surgery. Why would you even do it?
10:16am 27/06/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1772 posts

A helmet could greatly increase your chances of not having brain damage in a car crash, why isn't this mandatory? Why are you not wearing a helmet in a car to help save the taxpayer money?
http://www.monash.edu/miri/research/reports/atsb160.html

The total annual benefit in terms of reduced Harm are estimated to be about $123 million for padding of the upper interior of the passenger compartment. The estimated benefit for protective headwear (in the form of a helmet) is between $380 million (assuming a fully airbag equipped fleet) and $500 million (assuming no vehicles with airbags).


I commute by running home from work sometimes at about 10kph. Should I be wearing a helmet for that also?

Low-speed incidents have just as much chance of serious injury as many high-speed accidents.


Source? If I am having a crash at >20kph I doubt I am going head first over the bars.


11:06am 27/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39519 posts
I'm not going to lose my s*** about it because I do see the civil liberties argument. But it's just such an easy thing to do.


thats right, you'd have to be a complete idiot to not wear a helmet, especially when there are no negatives to wearing a helmet.

raven, i wouldnt even both with tardhat, hes got no actual decent arguments for not wearing helmets.

thats because there arent any.

i am thankful that my country forces idiots who would otherwise be too stupid to wear helmets, to wear helmets.

if they dont like it, f*** off riding bikes, go drive a car.
11:35am 27/06/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1729 posts
listen to any episode germaine greer is in (and they seem to keep inviting her back).


allowing Greer to talk is not the same as endorsing what Greer says. It's not possible to have an opinion show where everyone holds the same opinion.

The word for that is echo chamber.

Howard getting a shoe thrown at him is the most piss poor example of bias I think I've heard of.

The protestors were denounced *on air* by Tony Jones as undemocratic.


You've been reading the Australian so long you've forgotten how to engage your own brain if you cite these as evidence of 'bias'.

That would be like saying the ABC has bias toward the LNP for giving a platform for Joe Hockey for his hate the poor education cuts.
01:11pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17694 posts

thats because there arent any.


Helmets are bulky and a pain in the arse to carry around when not riding your bike, that is one reason.

IIRC, I also thought it was dumb to not wear helmets, however looking into the stats of countries with mandatory helmet laws vs those without, there really wasn't that much difference in accident outcomes.. I think.
01:31pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39521 posts
all that matters with helmets.

am i safer riding my bike wearing a helmet or not? (yes i am)

case closed.
02:13pm 27/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22720 posts
allowing Greer to talk is not the same as endorsing what Greer says.


that's strange, because generally speaking broadcasters (and publishers) are held liable for comments published by them. (in non-political matters it can constitute defamation.)

repeatedly inviting also indicates tacit approval of their comments. I wonder if Q&A will invite their terrorist friend back?

it's is not creating an echo chamber to only invite guests (and insist on conduct) which is not rude or insulting. the govt ministers are as much to blame for agreeing to go on. As Keating said, nothing good can come of Q&A. It's a lynch mob that will only be happy with blood.
02:47pm 27/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25178 posts
I like the way infi still hasn't produced any evidence of bias or hateful vitriol yet is still prattling away about like an idiot.
03:40pm 27/06/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22721 posts
I like the way infi still hasn't produced any evidence of bias or hateful vitriol yet is still prattling away about like an idiot.


The bias is every week. Every week left wing guests outnumber right wings guests. Every week.
03:52pm 27/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25179 posts
I wonder if Q&A will invite their terrorist friend back?
You know what's funny? That man has never been convicted of a terrorist offence. Which means not only can you produce no evidence to back up your whiney rants, you're also resorting to hyperbole and dishonesty to compensate. You have no integrity, no critical thinking skills. You're dumb, you're racist. Nothing more than a sheltered little daddy's boy who has no idea how the real world works. A complete and utter failure as a human being. F*** it must suck to be you.
04:10pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4537 posts


The bias is every week. Every week left wing guests outnumber right wings guests. Every week.


I wonder why.. because more intellectuals are left wing. This show is intellectually stimulating. Not like right wing dominated shows.
04:41pm 27/06/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
566 posts
Bicycle helmets protect yer brains if you have a difficulty comprehending that then you probably don't need a helmet any way.
05:08pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17697 posts


am i safer riding my bike wearing a helmet or not? (yes i am)



The dude isn't so much saying that it is safer or not, he is advocating that is should be the choice of the rider and not a mandatory thing.
05:35pm 27/06/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11770 posts
because more intellectuals are left wing


As soon as an Intellectual puts on a Political hat they cease to be an Intellectual. Politics unites the stupid, a Political Ideology that only appealed to Intellectuals would never succeed and has never existed.
06:23pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4539 posts
Intellectuals understand that left wing is the superior ideology. The right promises reward for hard work.
That doesn't work nowadays, perhaps the conservative mindset was ideal during the industrial revolution.

Nowadays, we're moving so much to automation, we *need* more socialist policy. Jobs are going to drop rapidly in the coming decades, and the population continues to grow.
So you need to remove all welfare and introduce a basic income, increase high end taxes everywhere to pay for this.

If we don't, look forward to many countries becoming slum wastelands with crime through the roof.
06:26pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17699 posts

Intellectuals understand that left wing is the superior ideology. The right promises reward for hard work.


What a biased statement.

There are intellectuals that are also on the far Right. Don't be silly. I'm assuming you are referring to the research that suggested that the left sides tends to have smarter people. 'Tends to' being the important part.

Being an intellectual, Vash, I'm sure you have read through a lot of philosophical arguments for a range of systems of governance. In doing so, you would have, or should have, noticed that there are plenty of wise people advocating the various systems and the aspects of each system (such as being extreme left, right, center, etc).

Notice I said wise in that sentence above. The governance of people requires as much wisdom as intelligence, perhaps more. Just because someone is intelligent, it doesn't mean they are wise.
06:52pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4540 posts
I don't claim to be an intellectual, i just identify with them.
But the way society is going we need to move more to the left.
07:11pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4541 posts
08:53pm 27/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25180 posts
Pope is pretty much right on the money most of the time.
08:59pm 27/06/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25181 posts
The bias is every week. Every week left wing guests outnumber right wings guests. Every week.
I had a quick look at the figures. Out of the most frequent guests in the show there have been 157 who you could reasonably identify as right-wing, and there have been 149 you could reasonably identify as being left-wing. Germaine Greer has been on there nine times compared to Pyne and Turnbull's 21 each.

source

Have you got anything compelling to contend that instead of froth froth froth?
09:09pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39524 posts
The dude isn't so much saying that it is safer or not, he is advocating that is should be the choice of the rider and not a mandatory thing.


i dont want idiots clogging up my hospitals.

sometimes people need help making the right decision (like with smoking or seat belts)
09:42pm 27/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4542 posts


This is all they could come up with?
The anti tones ads will be fantastic, they should just use that john oliver episode.

and with that, i think it's early election time.
09:48pm 27/06/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7209 posts
10:10pm 27/06/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7210 posts
Bull S***ten makes Tony Abbott look good.
10:12pm 27/06/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20839 posts
Yeah, no he doesn't. Trust me, as someone doesn't sit fitmly in either camp.

You are just a liberal supporter.
07:04am 28/06/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1730 posts
that's strange, because generally speaking broadcasters (and publishers) are held liable for comments published by them


You are such a liar. That only happens when the publisher has direct editorial control and you know it. That is simply not the case for a show like QANDA, hence all the difference between news and opinion.

Again you've been reading so much of the Australian that you can't understand that personal and corporate opinion can differ.
10:56am 28/06/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
300 posts
Maybe we need a right-wing QandA to help balance things. It would have to be fundamentally conservative and supportive of the status quo, so probably not so much focus on the Q and more about ministers and powerful people sitting around and explaining how awesome everything is.
11:50am 28/06/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7211 posts
Yeah, no he doesn't. Trust me, as someone doesn't sit fitmly in either camp.

You are just a liberal supporter.


erm no.

I don't like Bull S***ten. If they blade him and put Albo in they might have a chance.

12:10pm 28/06/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20840 posts
There isn't anyone or anything making tone abet look good
05:04pm 28/06/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1773 posts
i dont want idiots clogging up my hospitals.

sometimes people need help making the right decision (like with smoking or seat belts)


I love this excuse. Why don't you wear a helmet when you're in a car or at cricket?
06:41pm 28/06/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4941 posts


erm no.

I don't like Bull S***ten. If they blade him and put Albo in they might have a chance.




The fact that Shorten can string a sentence together already puts him ahead of abbott. Abbott is nothing but a mug.
06:45pm 28/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17704 posts
The Greens are actually doing something about their dodgy economic credentials. Lets see how this pans out.

04:43pm 29/06/15 Permalink
Vash
4545 posts
They were always less dodgy than the liberal economic credentials, huehuehue.
The greens follow the Norway model. Which works.
Nationalise your resource companies, invest the profit into the country instead of to Rineharts and foreigners.
05:01pm 29/06/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7212 posts
lol

09:48pm 29/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39530 posts
I love this excuse. Why don't you wear a helmet when you're in a car or at cricket?


quite simple my good man, i just plan not to have an accident in the car or not to get hit when playing cricket, so i dont need a helmet.

also, our wise wise country has decreed that those things do not require me to wear a helmet, so i dont.

luckily for me and everyone else dangerous activities like riding a bike, require a helmet by law.

its common sense matey.
07:32am 30/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17706 posts
I'd like to think Spook is taking this piss with that post..
10:04am 30/06/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39532 posts
yer, im using redhats idiot posts/emails against himself.

he actually said to me that he plans "not to crash" when riding his bike so he doesnt need to wear a helmet.
10:18am 30/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17709 posts
The Dutch know how to make their government do useful stuff for citizens, at least sometimes:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/24/dutch-government-ordered-cut-carbon-emissions-landmark-ruling
08:52pm 30/06/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2238 posts

The Dutch know how to make their government do useful stuff for citizens, at least sometimes:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/24/dutch-government-ordered-cut-carbon-emissions-landmark-ruling


I did post a link to this 6 days ago.....
09:51pm 30/06/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17712 posts
Yeah, but noone cares about your links HJim
08:43am 01/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2239 posts
Yeah, but noone cares about your links HJim


You think that they care about yours?


Interesting
09:45am 01/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38129 posts
I love this excuse. Why don't you wear a helmet when you're in a car or at cricket?
because the risk profile is completely different. It is worth noting that when you're in a car there exists a safety mechanism which you are required by law to partake of - seat belts. Wearing a seatbelt is one of the more effective methods of stopping a bunch of common injuries in cars.

At cricket, if you're a player there are any number of safety devices that many of the players wear. I suspect they don't need to legislate wearing a box while facing a fast bowler these days. (If you mean as a spectator the risk profile is so staggeringly low - you're probably way more likely to get punched in the head by a drunk idiot or fall off the stands trying to get to a beach ball than hit by the ball in the stands.)
11:41am 01/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17713 posts

You think that they care about yours?


Interesting



No :(



Jokes man, but you hit right back in the feels. Not cool.
12:24pm 01/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
568 posts
As the sun sets over Greece i guess we can expect a flotilla of financial refugee's,Melbourne is supposed to be the Athens of the south so i guess the Greeks will pack their bags and head for Oakleigh.
12:55pm 01/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1775 posts
because the risk profile is completely different. It is worth noting that when you're in a car there exists a safety mechanism which you are required by law to partake of - seat belts. Wearing a seatbelt is one of the more effective methods of stopping a bunch of common injuries in cars.

At cricket, if you're a player there are any number of safety devices that many of the players wear. I suspect they don't need to legislate wearing a box while facing a fast bowler these days. (If you mean as a spectator the risk profile is so staggeringly low - you're probably way more likely to get punched in the head by a drunk idiot or fall off the stands trying to get to a beach ball than hit by the ball in the stands.)


Look, I used to think the same way and thought what sort of idiot wouldn't just wear a helmet considering it's an easy thing to do.

Then a couple of my friends were anti-helmet (not spook) so I started looking into it.

There's a whole heap of other externalities involved other than, "just wear a helmet even if it saves your life once every million kms it's worth it." One of the biggest reasons is that it discourages cycling due to perceived danger and inconvenience. More people cycling would make cycling way more safer than just helmet laws can. The other thing is more people using active transport will have a bigger effect on our health system due to most of our country being overweight than a couple of people with cracked noggins.

Start here, there's stats and actual published studies and a whole list of reasons why mandatory helmet laws are silly.
http://helmetfreedom.org/
12:59pm 01/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
570 posts
You can crack your brain box that is just bones you get a sore head if the brain has turbulence the electrical connections get smashed and you turn into a vegetable then you wont even be able to wonder why you didn't use brain protection.
01:08pm 01/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1776 posts
You can crack your brain box that is just bones you get a sore head if the brain has turbulence the electrical connections get smashed and you turn into a vegetable then you wont even be able to wonder why you didn't use brain protection.


I should have worn a helmet before reading this post.
02:06pm 01/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39537 posts
because the risk profile is completely different. It is worth noting that when you're in a car there exists a safety mechanism which you are required by law to partake of - seat belts. Wearing a seatbelt is one of the more effective methods of stopping a bunch of common injuries in cars.


agree.

but also pointing out that people are stupid and a large percentage of people wouldnt wear seatbelts if it wasnt the law. (ie murica)
07:39pm 01/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7213 posts
no no no! its all f*****g LIES!

10:47pm 01/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11777 posts
FFS just get the Gay Marriage Bill done.

Abetz sounded like a fuddy duddy today declaring Cabinet Ministers should leave the front bench if they support Gay Marriage. Me thinks he doth protest too much.

I suspect the next Election will be very close, best to get this done now and all the other fuddy duddys will have got over it by then.



08:15pm 02/07/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
303 posts
FFS just get the Gay Marriage Bill done.

Abetz sounded like a fuddy duddy today declaring Cabinet Ministers should leave the front bench if they support Gay Marriage. Me thinks he doth protest too much.

I suspect the next Election will be very close, best to get this done now and all the other fuddy duddys will have got over it by then.


Sounds like you're pretty keen for the Libs to give themselves the best possible chance of winning the next election... not that you sit firmly in their camp or anything, it's just very frustrating for you when they don't win.

Makes sense.
12:29pm 03/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
572 posts
T Abbott ,out of the mouth of babes:


01:08pm 03/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9022 posts
Aw crap, you know that thing that's doing the rounds in the news about a Victorian High School?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/christian-sex-education-program-at-fairhills-high-school-tells-schoolgirls-that-too-much-sex-will-break-their-chemical-bond-20150702-gi3o7g.html

Yeah... I went there :/
The acting principle? Yeah, I had him for a couple of classes. Bets I know a certain handful of teachers that were involved in this bulls*** too - one of them, well... look, I don't consider myself a violent person, and there's a lot of people who treated me like s*** in High School. But there's one particular teacher which if there were anyone in the world I was going to be tried for murder of, it'll be him if I ever see the d*** around again. And I'd put serious money on him being involved in this, allowing the church to be involved in the school.
02:14pm 03/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
574 posts
Tony Abbott is against gay marriage,being gay is a genetic disorder like downs syndrome or dwarfism, its ok for downy's and dwarfs to get married, so why discriminate against gays?

Iff any one should be disqualified from marriage it should be dwarfs on the grounds that an unborn normal human baby would be to huge for a dwarf woman and after it was born there would be no way she could hold the baby it would be like trying to hold a huge sack of potatoes.

It's these glaring inconsistencies that need to be hammered out.
04:42am 06/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9024 posts
Okay, first up, there's no evidence that suggest there's a gene that dictates peoples sexual orientation. While it's stronly suspected there's a genetic disposition, no evidence has yet been found, including in twin studies.

Furthermore, calling it a "disorder"? I look forward we discover the gene responsible for being an a******.

The fact that some people have to consider it genetic and something you're born in to just shows the wild intolerance of society. Currently all evidence points to sexual orientation being nurture not nature - and yet there's a lot of people going around harping on like that's somehow not okay.
07:39am 06/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38139 posts
OK so Greece! How about that no vote! AUD dropped like a cent overnight on the news. I will be interested to see what impact it has on the local markets.
09:46am 06/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25195 posts
http://i.imgur.com/VE8ZUy3.png

This is what happens when you ask dumb people hard questions.
06:00pm 07/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22756 posts
This is a standard political strategy in the current 24/7 political cycle - all politicians do it. Politicians know they only get one shot each day to get a 15 second spot on the nightly news so they ensure that every time they are in front of the media they are spruiking the message of the day, which goes out to their members from the members secretariat (a taxpayer funded strategy unit for government MPs) at 6.30am by SMS each morning. If politicians only say one thing a day it cuts down on the gaffes and gotcha moments. It cuts out all spontaneity and ensures the script is executed in accordance with what the focus groups said they want to hear the night before.
07:00pm 07/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25196 posts
The apologist is strong in this one.

He couldn't have possibly anticipated that he was going to be asked that question and therefore it is completely okay that he just rambled on for a bit instead of answering it properly.

edit: just to expand a bit on that. What you said is probably true. Even if it is he is showing such a complete lack of guile and tact with his response. It's just a bunch of nonsensical garbage that means absolutely nothing. Hence the 'this is what happens when you ask dumb people hard questions'.
07:18pm 07/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2244 posts
His wife must be so confused at dinner. "Tony what would you like for dinner", "Margret, look, the important thing to do is whatever we can to build a strong and prosperous meal, and again I get back to the grocery code of conduct."
09:05pm 07/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4555 posts
hahaah
09:47pm 07/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17716 posts
Wtf, the man is supposed to be a Rhodes scholar ffs. That answer is total s***. Really, it doesn't answer the question for starters, doesn't give any incite into the nature of the question, from which I am forced to conclude the his party (being the leader) has not really prepared for this issue. He should be f*****g worried, his party has no real skill to tackle any problems that do arise, as evident by his nonsense answer.
11:16pm 07/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25197 posts
ftr, he was at some sort of grocery conference thing. Gives some context to his answer but it still makes no sense.
11:17pm 07/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17717 posts
If our country doesn't wake up and start producing real leaders and real parties instead of the two massively corrupted,media whore garbage piles we are going to tank hard.
11:19pm 07/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2709 posts
What economic links does Aus have to Greece? Sure there's a big Greek heritage in the population... but is there much trade?

I'd be more worried about China's massive stock market crash as well as their inevitable trend of decreasing raw materials imports from Aus - that'll be a serious blow to the Aus economy.

Aus has it super sweet by all standards, but it's not impervious to damage, and I agree with Tol that the political leadership on both sides has and continues to be pretty abysmal. This is kind of concerning with the potentially rather turbulent economic times ahead (not to mention conflict in the South China Sea).

Also, lol: Greeks apologise with huge horse
04:37am 08/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39560 posts
thang kodness for kevin (and wayne) during the gfc, or we could be in a greece situation right now!
06:28am 08/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2245 posts
What economic links does Aus have to Greece? Sure there's a big Greek heritage in the population... but is there much trade?
08:36am 08/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4556 posts
this AWU Royal commission is funny stuff. The Coalition has created this corruption perception of unions, when corporations & the coalition themselves are far more corrupt.

Man a federal ICAC would be so f*****g sweet. The amount of coalition MPs that would resign would be magnificent.
Just like the NSW ICAC, Coalition MPs fell over all over the place
12:05pm 08/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11789 posts
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-07/hsu-ex-head-kathy-jacksons-trial-proceeds-despite-non-attendance/6600688

Have a read of of Kathy Jacksons free money Fund.
Craig Thompson...
Shortens deal that stabbed those low-paid workers in the back...
Must be gut wrenching to pay Union dues to Reps like that.



12:18pm 08/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4560 posts


But when asked whether he would boycott Jones' show, he said he would not. It was all about the numbers.

"I am certainly not going to ignore an audience of half a million people in Sydney," Mr Abbott said.


unless it's the Q&A audience

Joe Hockey, then the shadow treasurer, agreed.


heh...heheh...hehehehe
We won't boycott Jones, he's our ally! despite Jones being a disgusting human being. They're all a happy bunch o c****.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/the-height-of-arrogance-when-tony-abbott-and-joe-hockey-opposed-boycotts-20150708-gi7hxf.html
06:21pm 08/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22763 posts
QANDA is a flawed concept if it vets audience members, knows about their terrorist and misogynist tendencies, and allows them on to speak in any case.

As Paul Keating said, QANDA is a waste of time. No good can come of it.
06:49pm 08/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4561 posts
It's an open public forum. To question intellectuals and politicans about various topics.
It's an excellent show, it doesn't discriminate, and let's any average person to put questions directly to their government members. Nothing else does that.

The episode with slavoj zizek was fantastic.
06:52pm 08/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25209 posts
QANDA is a flawed concept if it vets audience members, knows about their terrorist and misogynist tendencies, and allows them on to speak in any case.
How do Zaky's misogynist tweets compare to to the misogynist comments made by Tony Abbott the Prime Minister of Australia?

Also I see you're still prattling away with no evidence to back up your claims.
01:11pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4564 posts
Maybe that's why tones stopped appearing, to save us from his misogynist and discriminatory views. Heh.
02:08pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17718 posts
Lol info just ignores that Tony is a misogynist and known bully. That sort of thing only applies when it suits his not so liberal agenda.
06:47pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2712 posts
lol hogfather!

The fact that Q&A allowed that to happen, and the resounding public response was to disagree with that dude, is great! Removing that kind of independent critique and public discussion would be stripping one of the fundamental pillars of a functioning free democracy (not to mention further oppressing your minorities as they have even less avenues for output, which does legitimately lead to home-grown terrorism). The point is to be able to ask, and answer, the questions - not have censorship so there's no questions.

As John Howard says rather well (whilst skirting the question he was asked!):

07:13pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22766 posts
So QANDA wants him on too?
07:18pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22767 posts
How do Zaky's misogynist tweets compare to to the misogynist comments made by Tony Abbott the Prime Minister of Australia?

Also I see you're still prattling away with no evidence to back up your claims.


You compare any of Abbott's foot in mouth comments with a guy who condones gang rape and refuses to retract his statements. Right....
07:20pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2713 posts
Point is you can have anyone on infi, and have the debate - that's what public discourse is about - regardless of the individuals beliefs or crimes. If you had a guy on arguing in favour of gang rape, and they debated it, and everyone disagreed with him and agreed that gang rape was wrong - that's great! A poor example as we all know gang rape is wrong, but it's very relevant for the many dubious topics relevant at the moment, like the torture of asylum seekers or home-grown terrorists.
07:32pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22768 posts
I will stick with respectable people talking in a respectable manner. S*** they wouldn't have that terrorist sympathizer on JJJ I bet. They can send the riff raff down to the uni refec.
07:47pm 09/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25212 posts


You compare any of Abbott's foot in mouth comments with a guy who condones gang rape and refuses to retract his statements. Right....
More apologist comments. Will they ever stop.

I think the disparity in the severity of the comments is pretty comparable to the status of the two people in question. One a worthless dumb ass and the other a worthless dumb ass who is the Prime Minister of Australia. The point was that you seemed to object to misogynist comments from one person yet will fall over yourself to apologise for the other. I was just wondering if you could please explain that.
08:00pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22771 posts
I don't find any of Abbott's allegedly misogynist (I don't think they are nor does the Australian public) in the same league as supporting the gang rape of a woman. The fact that you do indicates just how warped your sensibility is.
08:31pm 09/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25213 posts
I pretty clearly explained how the comments are different and gave my reasoning for why I am comparing them. You're doing that thing where something is too hard for you to answer so instead you'll keep repeating dumb things in an effort to bore me out. The true mark of a dumb coward.

You don't think Abbott has made misogynist comments? Interesting, because he quite clearly has and I think any reasonable person would agree with me.

I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever dominate or even approach equal representation in a large number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities and interests are different for physiological reasons.

Abortion is the easy way out. It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations.

The problem with the Australian practice of abortion is that an objectively grave matter has been reduced to a question of the mother’s convenience

I want to make it clear that I do not judge or condemn any woman who has had an abortion, but every abortion is a tragedy and up to 100,000 abortions a year is this generation's legacy of unutterable shame.

I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak.


There are heaps more. Check out his wikiquote page - it's also full of science denying and other nuttery. I didn't post them all as I'm on my phone and copy pasting is a pain. I know you're easily confused so I'll just let you know each quote is a stand alone quote, they're separated by linebreaks.

Are you going to go to the next level in apologist posts and try to tell me those quotes are not of a misogynist nature? Or is this the bit where you check out of the thread for a while for just long enough so you can continue on with your rehashed bulls***?

edit: they're in the same league because some comments are coming from a nobody and the others are coming from Minister for Women Prime Minister of Australia Tony Abbott. I'd expect a child to understand this.
08:47pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22772 posts
They are not misogynist comments. He is perfectly entitled to his personal opinion on those matters. The public policies which liberate women remain in effect under his government. None of those quotes indicate a dislike of women. His deputy and chief of staff are women. The suggestion is just absurd.
08:53pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2714 posts
I don't find Abbott's misogynist comments, and they are definitely misogynist, to be in the same misogyny league as gang rape comments - they are on decidedly different sides of the misogynist scale.

It can be interpreted as worse as he's the Prime Minister, and it's a poor state of affairs that our Prime Minister is so misogynistic (whether overtly or not), but I don't think it's directly comparable in the way you're indicating fpot.

Also why bother with the personal attacks and character assassination? If you can't debate/agree the point then agree to disagree innit.

edit: that's a pretty interesting view infi, they are pretty sexist/misogynist comments by most accounts and obviously his personal view impacts his public policies.
08:59pm 09/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25214 posts
It's actually your denials that are absurd. Every single position you take is absurd. From your support of asylum seeker torture, your rabid opposable to QANDA, your climate change denialism, your support for the government to be an autocratic powerhouse when it comes to squashing people you feel are beneath you compared to your infantile whinging when it comes to how they deal with you. You're never able to back up a single thing you say. Ever. The reason for that is you allow yourself to be lead by people who are able to tap into your racist, bigoted personality. I weep for your child. Being raised by you, they're destined to fail as a human being.

edit: they're obviously not comparable in isolation. Do you not understand how Minister for Women Tony Abbott should be held to a much higher standard than random mouthy d******* though?
09:03pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
997 posts
I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever dominate or even approach equal representation in a large number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities and interests are different for physiological reasons.


fpot: What are your issues with that quote of Abbott's? Is it the word large? Or something else?
09:20pm 09/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22773 posts
fpot you are entitled to your view of the world. it's always amusing to read/see how the other half think - it gives me an insight into the leftist superior mindset. and i thank you for that.
09:20pm 09/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25215 posts


fpot: What are your issues with that quote of Abbott's? Is it the word large? Or something else?
What areas will women never be able to match males in due to physiological reasons?

Sport that requires strength and endurance played at the highest level is one I can think of. What else can you think of? Ethics in game journalism perhaps? (lol)

fpot you are entitled to your view of the world. it's always amusing to read/see how the other half think - it gives me an insight into the leftist superior mindset. and i thank you for that.
The funny thing is not being a dumb racist s*** heel with no ability to think critically does make me superior to you and does actually make me feel good about myself. And I thank you for that.
09:28pm 09/07/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
998 posts
What areas will women never be able to match males in due to physiological reasons?

Sport that requires strength and endurance played at the highest level is one I can think of. What else can you think of? Ethics in game journalism perhaps? (lol)


He mentioned ability, aptitude and *interest* for physiological reasons.
Here's some more where they won't *ON AVERAGE* be matching males any time soon *because of physiological reasons*:
* Physically intensive military roles.
* In fact a lot of roles in general that require a certain level of muscular, especially upper body strength.
* As you said, a lot of sports.

Women and men also have different interests that have been shown to be somewhat based in physiology, not just sociology. Men are drawn to certain roles more than women and women are drawn to other roles more than men.
And one role that is a woman's alone (until we get artificial wombs etc) is carrying a pregnancy to term.

The simple fact of the matter is, fpot, that *physiologically* on average far more women choose roles that involve them raising and nurturing a family and far more men than women choose roles that involve them providing for that family in the workplace. Sure, there's some sociological element to this, but given that it's practically impossible to find any society (of humans) that involves the reverse on average, it's pretty damned clear it's based on physiological differences. We're a sexually dimorphic species.

So, given the population of men and women are roughly equal, and given that a large proportion of women will be spending at least some time out of the workforce having kids (and often they choose to spend most of their lives out of the workforce) then the actual pool of candidates for a lot of jobs has more men than women.

So it's only to be expected that in certain jobs, especially either physically demanding ones or ones that involve a huge time investment and dedication to a company are going to see a higher proportion of men than women.

It's pretty simple math.

I hate Tony Abbott with a passion, but there was nothing misogynistic about what he said in that quote. It was a simple statement of fact.

It would only have been misogynistic if he had added something like: "And that shows that men are better than women" or "And that's why we shouldn't allow women in these professions".

So long as each individual person is free to choose their own path in life according to their own individual abilities and interests then we're living in a just and fair society. Just because when people are classified into groups that differences emerge does not indicate an unfair or unjust society.

Seriously fpot, we're both lefties, but my point is backed by logic and science. Yours is just based on feels and authoritarian nonsense.
12:18am 10/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4566 posts
"And that's why we shouldn't allow women in these professions".


He doesn't need to say that to show he believes that. Hence, the lack of women in the LNP, and his utter lack of disrespect for Julia gillard.
12:29am 10/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2715 posts
Most of your argument, Rukh, has been proven to be more a result of outright (pre-feminism (say first-wave circa 60's)) and more subtle (post-feminism, again circa 60's) regulatory oppression and societal pressure, rather than actual choices based on unconditioned preference. This has been similarly noted for race and ethnic inequalities.

So your argument isn't really on the money I don't think, especially on the math once you take into account the historical timeline of regulatory and/or societal constructs and their impact on a individual's perceived preference. Not so much a statement of fact, though it could have been many years ago, and it is a reflection of the results of both regulatory and societal sexism and female oppression. It's a well trodden defence by many on the more pro-male side of this particular debate. I dare say it's no basis for the gender equality we're working towards though. No offence!

I say give fathers paternity leave that equals the mothers, it's arguable that's better for families anyway, and it would negate the undue emphasis on women leaving the workforce for pregnancy. Sure it costs the business, but why penalise women alone for the act of child rearing?
01:46am 10/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25216 posts
That sure was a lot of words that amount to nothing more than men work the jobs and women raise the babies because history says so. I saw a lot of sciency sounding words but not a lot of science. About 80% of it needs a citation required tag on it.

I found your historical argument to be particularly on the nose. Do I need to go through the literally countless examples of things that have changed throughout the course of time that were once regarded as unalienable fact? I don't think I do, but perhaps you should ponder on some of the more obvious examples.

One question about your logic. I've observed you literally raging about how violence against women is given so much focus compared to violence against men. The obvious reason women gain more attention is because they are more physically at risk. How come your so willing to ignore that fact when you're raging against the white ribboned machine, yet willing to hang it from the highest mast when you're trying to make your point up there?
02:06am 10/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2716 posts

To get back on topic, Aus is a bit f***ed really, economically speaking.

Of Clowns and Treasurers - Joe Hockey and the myth of Coalition economic management

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/july/1435672800/richard-denniss/clowns-and-treasurers


07:30am 10/07/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
999 posts
fpot and Viper: No, sorry, but there's research done by actual scientists not gender studies ideologues, that shows a difference in interests in even newborns. And that even in more "equal" societies like those of Norway and Sweden, that often women are *more* likely to choose traditionally female roles than in less "equal" and poorer societies where choosing a "male" role is more required to help support a family.

The evidence is pretty clear that men as a whole preference some types of work and women as a whole preference others. And it's a pattern that is *EVERYWHERE ON EARTH*. And over hundreds of thousands of years it's lead to differences in the male and female physiologies.

And like a lot of idiots in the feminist movement you're seeing what the situation is and claiming it's "SEXISM!", "PATRIARCHY!", "OPPRESSION!" when it's just the result of natural evolution.

I have no problem acknowledging reality. And accepting that groups can make different choices.

But because I'm *not* a traditionalist-conservative, I'm all for the rights of individual men and women to choose how they want to live their lives. If a woman wants to apply to join the SAS? She should be allowed to apply and be treated the same as any other applicant. If a man wants to stay at home and raise the kids while his partner works? I'm all for giving him the same level of support as is given to women that choose that role.

I'm also against those people that say things like: "You're a man therefore you must choose such and such a role or not do such and such" and the same for women.

But attacking people simply for pointing out what is f*****g obvious and backed by evidence because it's inconvenient to your worldview is creationist level ignorance and unworthy of anyone with a rational brain.

There is nothing factually wrong with that quote of Tony Abbott's. He's said plenty of other things that are complete falsehoods or stupid. But that quote wasn't one of them. It was factual. That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to pursue their dreams or lessen any sociological barriers to those dreams. We absolutely can afford to. But denying reality is stupid.

But then, I actually give a f*** about reality.






10:03am 10/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17719 posts
To be fair the way Tonez and the ALP treated Gillard is the same way they would treat any opposition leader. Attack them in any way avaliable, they didnt hold back just because she was a woman.

It would be nice to have a political party that could campaign on their merits and not have the dominant strategy of attacking the other guys, and a public that demands that level of skill.

10:37am 10/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22775 posts
But attacking people simply for pointing out what is f*****g obvious and backed by evidence because it's inconvenient to your worldview is creationist level ignorance and unworthy of anyone with a rational brain.


That is what the leftist superior mob does best. If you do not agree you will be abused.
11:27am 10/07/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1000 posts
infi: It's certainly what the authoritarian left do (and the authoritarian right).

Whenever dogma is given more weight that reality there's a problem.
12:22pm 10/07/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4947 posts
To be fair fpot the military is another one cant match males although only in certain branches. Its pretty obvious they have been trying to make it so they can match men though because standards for physical tests have been falling since i left in 92.

I have a couple of mates that i was in with and who are now WO1's and they paint a pretty sad picture of the way standards have been adjusted down to cater to women. Aparently standards dont mean s*** when you are trying to be all highly enlightened and progressive.
12:33pm 10/07/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2026 posts
01:50pm 10/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25218 posts
fpot and Viper: No, sorry, but there's research done by actual scientists not gender studies ideologues, that shows a difference in interests in even newborns
Then post it.

By the way, you're sounding a lot like brool atm. He's a very rational brain.

edit:
To be fair fpot the military is another one cant match males although only in certain branches.
Yep I'd pay that one too.

So that's sport and military, and only in specific areas of sport and military.

edit2: sorry for all the edits but I just woke up and haven't coffeed yet. Where in my post did I attack you Rukh? I attacked you're argument and the way you presented it only. Ironically, you're the one who attacked me, accusing me of abandoning logic and science and instead resorting to feels and authoritarian leftism or some nonsense.
03:44pm 10/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2717 posts
Fair enough Rukh, please post some of this evidence and I'l check it out.

Most of the stuff I've seen shows that infant human beings can be conditioned to believe/like/preference pretty much anything, regardless of their gender or genetic makeup. It's also inexplicably true that we've had whole generations of societal and regulatory oppression of women which still influences what current generations of women think they prefer. Likewise for races and ethnic minorities. You'd be a tad hard pressed to find adults in our current generation that aren't still affected in some way by this influence. Maybe in the next generation (if we continue with equality) you could and would be able to see it. It's an easy out, and crutch of the right wing to attack the left with, to disregard this as nonsense and 'just how things are'.

By the way I don't think I've abused anyone in this thread, infi / Rukh!

The matching on physical strength is an interesting one, you could pay the military or sports ones, but then theres examples of women who can match the males.. or can match the skill/output required, just in a different way to brute strength - so not directly comparable. Some Fat Bastard cites a good one.
06:00pm 10/07/15 Permalink
justrev
Melbourne, Victoria
537 posts
a lot more money, energy and experience has been put into training males for sport than females.
I agree not all sports would suit the female frame, but some sports definitely would have more female representatives if an equal effort were put into training and support.
Motor racing and cricket are two I think would be on the list.
06:19pm 10/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4568 posts
heh the pope is a leftie. good on him
11:39pm 10/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1233 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Abusive
Send Private Message
12:53am 11/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25228 posts
Seeing as though Paul Keating's opinion holds so much weight around here.

http://i.imgur.com/4KGy4cH.jpg
04:22pm 12/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22786 posts
Keating's judgement here is so far off Tonez actually won. That's a bit awkward. Keating is a toff like Rudd, a lecturing schoolboy. Head in the clouds and still prattling on long after his time. Poor Keating. Australia didn't deserve him!

Redhat brings the abuse.
07:27pm 12/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25229 posts
Abbott was elected on a platform of lies and dishonesty that appealed to dumb racist people, such as yourself.

In case it isn't obvious, these are infi's tactics to keep his little fantasy bubble intact -

1) hold utterly reprehensible and indefensible views and be very vocal about them
2) when these views are proven to be wrong with evidence, resort to an endless stream of logical fallacies (strawmen are his favourite)
3) when this is pointed out and the argument has gone full circle he simply starts repeating the same dumb things like nothing ever happened
4) finally when there is nothing to say to him except "holy f*** I can't believe how dumb you are" he will play the victim card and have a bloo bloo bloo about all the abuse he is copping

So what do you do in real life when you're face to face with someone with your stupidity laid on the table and nowhere to hide? Oh I know, you leave your high paying job in the public sector and instead go and work for daddy. When you're in daddy's office and you're the owner's son it doesn't matter how dumb you are does it?

See this is why you're a complete piece of s***, and why I have no qualms about giving you the abuse you deserve. People bring it up like it's a negative, and the option to simply ignore you is a valid one I suppose. I'm not going to lie and pretend I am doing this for some noble reason. It's because I actually do get pleasure from doing it. If you were dumb in some sort of harmless way I'd be a prick, but you're a malicious hateful piece of garbage, and you'd be doing nothing but eating s*** your whole life if you weren't so well protected.
07:56pm 12/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25230 posts
In other gronk related news the LNP acting on advice from its team of witch doctors have cut funding to wind power. I read a comment that it was actually a smart move because other countries have found that wind isn't the way to go and this will allow them to focus on solar.

Abbott government extends renewable energy investment ban to solar power

Utterly bizarre. What could be the reason for this?

http://i.imgur.com/F8AgBI5.png

oh
09:07pm 12/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2723 posts
I wonder how long it'll take to repair the considerable damage the Abbott government is doing. Bit of a shame that the two party system is now so polarised and ineffectual lately. The policy action swings so far between the extremes every term - basically we get nowhere fast.
05:33am 13/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39591 posts
coalition are trying to f*** up solar power now as well.

i can honestly not fathom how anyone can be against wind power.
07:44am 13/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7226 posts
Bull S***ten needs to step aside.
08:14am 13/07/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20866 posts
i can honestly not fathom how anyone can be against wind power.


i can, when you loyalty is to coal mining and big business it is easy to see why he is against wind and solar power

he is a pathetic piece of s***
10:54am 13/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38154 posts
The entire Q&A "debate" is utterly bizarre. It hinges on the notion that radicals, extremists, f***wits and criminals shouldn't be allowed to have a voice in a debate. This is stupid.

Sure, you want to minimise exposure to those kind of elements. Radical and/or extreme views are often completely useless. But, and here's the important thing, sometimes they are not, and radical views are important and need to be heard. There are many examples of views and ideas that are radical completely reshaping our society.

Of course, many of them (probably even most of them) are useless, counter-productive, antagonistic, or just plain dumb. Arguably clownshoes that was on Q&A fits into one of these categories. However, it's important that even ridiculous opinions are brought into the discussion from side to side, just in case.

If they turn out to be good (e.g., "we should maybe think differently about slavery", or "maybe we should wash our hands before delivering babies", or "maybe gay people should be allowed to get married", or (coming soon) "maybe all religions should be tax exempt because they're useless woo"), then those crazy opinions could turn out to be the first step in sweeping social changes which will improve the quality of life of everyone.

Sure, many of them will turn out to be bad. But only letting people that you agree with into the conversation is just creating another filter bubble. Having people with contrary ideas - even if they're dumb ideas from anti-social clownshoes jerks - is an important part of the process, if only so the spotlight can be shone on them to really highlight how big a trainwreck of a human they are, or whatever.
11:18am 13/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1735 posts
Keating is a toff like Rudd, a lecturing schoolboy.

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is the same Keating, son of a boilermaker, who left school at 15 and never went to uni?

ahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

Keating is the archetypal self made man you should be queuing up to suck his d***.
12:26pm 13/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25231 posts
Loving the irony of infi's misinformed tirade against Keating coupled with the extra irony of infi putting him on a pedestal just a few posts ago when he was talking about his QANDA stuff.

Keep delivering infi.
01:08pm 13/07/15 Permalink
Reverend
Gold Coast, Queensland
1966 posts

Keating my favorite prime minister ever just no bulls*** in the man, and i love how he deals with journalists comments like go away maggot , 10/10
01:40pm 13/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
580 posts
Tony Abbott puts up two bills, if they are defeated it would be a trigger to call an election.

So now we see whether Billy boy has any guts to defeat the bills or will T Abbott have an on the road to "Damascus" moment not put the bill's up and chicken out.
02:02pm 13/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4569 posts
Keating is the man. A better PM than Abbott could ever be.
Also, there's been a few defeats in the senate that can trigger a double dissolution. The government hasn't got the balls to do it though
03:05pm 13/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38158 posts
So many of those memes are made by people who have no idea how to get their point across. So much of the gamergate s*** was like this. I have no idea what side that meme is pushing. Are they agreeing that the Pope is dangerous? I know people who probably would agree with that who are not rabid Fox watchers; as the head of an insidious organisation that is based on fiction, has squillions of dollars and is responsible for all sorts of nefarious activiities it's not exactly a hard sell.

Or are they saying that the Pope is not dangerous and it's ridiculous of Fox to call him that?

The second last line is an attack on some Christian group (the "phone conservatives"). But then it ends with a call to action against Fox news? IT IS A SMORGASBOARD OF FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE
04:43pm 13/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22787 posts

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is the same Keating, son of a boilermaker, who left school at 15 and never went to uni?

ahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

Keating is the archetypal self made man you should be queuing up to suck his d***.


It's not reflected in his esoteric persona, and endless yearning for recognition of his unappreciated talents.
Its like the ALP keeps electing Rudd types intentionally.
He despised the people he was supposed to represent.
04:59pm 13/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2248 posts
So many of those memes are made by people who have no idea how to get their point across. So much of the gamergate s*** was like this. I have no idea what side that meme is pushing. Are they agreeing that the Pope is dangerous? I know people who probably would agree with that who are not rabid Fox watchers; as the head of an insidious organisation that is based on fiction, has squillions of dollars and is responsible for all sorts of nefarious activiities it's not exactly a hard sell.

Or are they saying that the Pope is not dangerous and it's ridiculous of Fox to call him that?

The second last line is an attack on some Christian group (the "phone conservatives"). But then it ends with a call to action against Fox news? IT IS A SMORGASBOARD OF FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE


What is the message you get with this one then;

https://scontent-nrt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/p526x296/11693946_969162106451235_8506309563240078565_n.png?oh=b1b2385eb3d3b021496afa2ea7f6cdd0&oe=560EA7A1
05:23pm 13/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22788 posts
I get the message that Albanese is intentionally misrepresenting his opponent. The ALP supporting expanded government programs. So what else is new?
05:41pm 13/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22789 posts
coalition are trying to f*** up solar power now as well.

i can honestly not fathom how anyone can be against wind power.


I can, it isn't cheap and in fact costs a lot of taxpayer money.
05:45pm 13/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39593 posts
change the legislation then!?

surely we should be focusing on and encouraging renewable energy sources!?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/10/denmark-wind-windfarm-power-exceed-electricity-demand

(not wanting to a lame europe fancier like redhat, but im sure australia coudl be doing so much more with wind, yet our government goes out of its way to stop it?)
05:56pm 13/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11804 posts
Once the Pope converted to Global Warming he then met with the Marxist Queen Naomi Klein last week.
then this comes out...

Pope Francis delivered a fiery denunciation of modern capitalism on Thursday night, calling the “unfettered pursuit of money” the “dung of the devil” and accusing world leaders of “cowardice” for refusing to defend the earth from exploitation.

Speaking to grassroots organizers in Bolivia, the Pope called on the poor and disenfranchised to rise up against “new colonialism,” including corporations, loan agencies, free trade treaties, austerity measures, and “the monopolizing of the communications media.”


http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/07/world/pope-mass-ecuador-quito/index.html?sr=tw070915popedungdevil10pVODtopPhoto

The Pope is now somewhere to the Left of Vash.

Whats next for Global Warming ? They gonna sign up ISIS ?
06:00pm 13/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4570 posts
Pope is spot on there. Capitalism is temporary as we realise that we're just F*****g ourselves with such a system reliant on unlimited resources.
Bring socialism, distribute resources to all equally based on what the environment can sustain, instead of an elite few.
Or just f*** it up and find another planet to consume.
06:59pm 13/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7227 posts
Are they agreeing that the Pope is dangerous? I know people who probably would agree with that who are not rabid Fox watchers; as the head of an insidious organisation that is based on fiction, has squillions of dollars and is responsible for all sorts of nefarious activiities it's not exactly a hard sell.


BIGOT!


lol ;)
07:16pm 13/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25232 posts
Hey infi what does esoteric persona mean?
07:55pm 13/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1736 posts
He despised the people he was supposed to represent.


Based on what exactly?

He bought about required economic reform, created the NTA and did it while leaving unions with meaningful bargaining power. I don't think you can really accuse of ignoring his roots.

I don't think there is any meaningful comparison of personality types between Rudd and Keating, other than at the extreme broad brush strokes. Liking the lime light is a pre-requisite of being a politician there isn't one among them that could credibly claim the virtue of humility.
09:22pm 13/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4571 posts
Also worth noting that the CEFC has been making money for the government, i.e. adding to the treasury coffers, not depleting them.
It is now completely transparent that Abbott is working for corporate interests and against the national interest.


A worthy post spotted on reddit.
I wish infi/brool type people would look beyond the slogans :(
11:50pm 13/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38160 posts
I can, it isn't cheap and in fact costs a lot of taxpayer money.
hahah unlike coal?!

One argument that I heard that I do think justifies the cut to wind and solar that has just been announced is that private industry is already massively investing in solar technologies. This does seem to be true - there are commercial entities now building sustainable businesses based on the current generation of wind and solar tech.

Of course if our state-run power companies didn't have their head up their asses they'd have been deploying solar en masse in Qld, at least in the last few years. I've seen they're starting to try to do it - there's those (pretty good!) ads from Origin or whoever about the guys stealing electricity off other rooves. I think they see the writing on the wall - if they don't own the solar infrastructure, someone else is going to.
09:44am 14/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9035 posts
That would be a fair comment to make if they weren't already giving massive subsidies to the well-established coal, oil and gas industries.
10:22am 14/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38161 posts
That would be a fair comment to make if they weren't already giving massive subsidies to the well-established coal, oil and gas industries.
I don't think they're talking about stopping subsidies for solar/wind/etc. They're just talking about specific investments into certain aspects of renewables (e.g., "let's build a wind farm"). I believe (but am not sure) that subsidies are arranged differently.

I would like to see some investment in different areas - e.g., let's build a solar tower thingy, let's try a new novel type of wind turbine to see if it's more efficient, lets test this new kind of solar cell.

This is all based on the fact that I think the mandate of the CEFC is to invest in new and emerging clean energy technologies. Wind and solar are established and proven - you could say it's actually a feather in the cap of wind/solar that they're already so awesome we can just start deploying them now!

(Arguably it is a stupid thing to do by the Liberal party at this point when they seem to have a clear anti-anything-but-coal agenda - it goes without saying that it just makes them look more bumpkin than ever and they definitely should have approached it differently. )
11:11am 14/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9036 posts
We should be investing in Thorium power.

Hundreds if not thousands of high-tech jobs, an abundance of thorium in the ground, it's clean and produces almost no waste - and what waste it does generate barely hangs around compared to plutonium or uranium based nuclear.

If the Coal industry are so scared of it eating in to their profits, why not just re-tool? We don't need great big open cut mines and burning massive amounts of coal.

Also, thorium plants could be used to generate so much power we could have nearby cheap desalination plants, generation billions of litres of potable water suitable for agriculture. But no, let's just wait for the next drought.
11:32am 14/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22790 posts
hahah unlike coal?!


The subsidies given to coal industry are based on the diesel tax paid for use on private roads. Farmers get it too. Why should diesel tax be paid for travel on roads constructed by private operators on private property? Diesel tax is for road maintenance and development - a user pays tax. So it is not "costing" taxpayers because the tax should never have been levied on those taxpayers. To the best of my knowledge, this is the primary source of alleged taxpayer support.

One argument that I heard that I do think justifies the cut to wind and solar that has just been announced is that private industry is already massively investing in solar technologies. This does seem to be true - there are commercial entities now building sustainable businesses based on the current generation of wind and solar tech.


if solar and wind was viable then excluding them from CEFC investment wouldn't matter.

Arguably it is a stupid thing to do by the Liberal party at this point when they seem to have a clear anti-anything-but-coal agenda - it goes without saying that it just makes them look more bumpkin than ever and they definitely should have approached it differently.


weird observation to make when they specifically said they want the CEFC to be used for emerging technology.

Also worth noting that the CEFC has been making money for the government, i.e. adding to the treasury coffers, not depleting them.


that's awesome, what's the point of this observation though? i would love to see how many "dividends" the CEFC has added to Treasury coffers. I willw ager there are none and that the surplus has been gobbled up by public servants.
12:41pm 14/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38163 posts
The subsidies given to coal industry are based on the diesel tax paid for use on private roads. Farmers get it too. Why should diesel tax be paid for travel on roads constructed by private operators on private property? Diesel tax is for road maintenance and development - a user pays tax. So it is not "costing" taxpayers because the tax should never have been levied on those taxpayers. To the best of my knowledge, this is the primary source of alleged taxpayer support.
I would have thought you'd be against any form of subsidies as a general policy...?
if solar and wind was viable then excluding them from CEFC investment wouldn't matter.
Yeh - that is my point, and (I believe) the point of the government.
weird observation to make when they specifically said they want the CEFC to be used for emerging technology.
I mean purely from a political point of view. Just gives people more dirt to flick at them.
12:59pm 14/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22791 posts
I would have thought you'd be against any form of subsidies as a general policy...?


I am against taxpayers paying tax they shouldn't have to pay. we are not talking about a subsidy, it is a rebate for tax paid.
01:06pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4572 posts
Wind and solar are not as profitable as fossil fuels. When you have a government that receives donations from the mining industry, you have to question their credibility.
Renewables are essential for our energy future, not counting the effects of climate change, and the risk of harming prime arable land that is in short supply.
Denmark has hit 120 percent Renewables. I have to wonder how our once progressive country has gone downhill so fast. The answer can only be, Tony Abbott
05:19pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39595 posts
tone plz
07:15pm 14/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25233 posts
Nah the adults are back in charge and it's a new golden age. Open for business!

Remember when people were actually seriously saying this?
07:19pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4573 posts
08:34pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1781 posts
09:24pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10514 posts
I am against taxpayers paying tax they shouldn't have to pay. we are not talking about a subsidy, it is a rebate for tax paid.

Are you intentionally retarded?

Money in versus money out ... rebate = subsidy

You claim to value liberty and economics, all I see is valuing the Liberal Party.
09:46pm 14/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22792 posts
The diesel fuel tax rebate is for farmers and miners because their vehicles do not operate on public roads (which the tax is used to maintain) - thus they should not be levied the tax, thus they are entitled to a refund. They are not being subsidised because they should never have paid the tax in the first place. This very simple concept confuses you Obes and for that I am sad.
09:53pm 14/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38164 posts
This very simple concept confuses you Obes and for that I am sad.
It is /not/ a very simple concept at all!

Taxes on fossil fuels are, or should be, about dealing with externalities (amongst other things). The answer to the question "Why should diesel tax be paid for travel on roads constructed by private operators on private property?" is completely and utterly obvious to anyone that knows what an externality is. If you don't believe in externalities then fair enough - you can assign subsidies at random or to whoever you care to assign them to at your discretion.

Even in the situation where the diesel was manufactured by those private operators on their private property by their own privately owned equipment, it still would be a ludicrous position to take, because (amongst other reasons) CO2 goes into the atmosphere which we all share.
10:39pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4574 posts
Infi, being a Liberal voter, wouldn't subscribe to the idea of CO2 going into the atmosphere having any bearing at all.
10:59pm 14/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22793 posts
Taxes on fossil fuels are, or should be, about dealing with externalities (amongst other things).


Except that fuel taxes have always been about road maintenance and development. If you want to rewrite the narrative now and tell the voters these taxes will not be spent on roads anymore feel free...
11:15pm 14/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2728 posts
You guys will love this Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments.
03:08am 15/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38168 posts
Except that fuel taxes have always been about road maintenance and development. If you want to rewrite the narrative now and tell the voters these taxes will not be spent on roads anymore feel free...
Yes! Because now we are quite confident that burning fuel is bad for the planet, so adding more tax to help deal with that and shift us to alternative energy sources makes sense (to me). At least we've fixed the fuel index pricing thingy which is a start.
03:56pm 15/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
584 posts
I must say that i am yet to be convinced that a "carbon tax" is going to reduce the out put of carbon dioxide i mean i am not a scientist so i am not in a position to explain how tax is good for the environment.

I am glad we have professor Trog available to express his confident and well researched scientific knowledge.
04:18pm 15/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4575 posts
Well it does, or did. As soon as the carbon tax was abolished, our emissions sharply increased.
04:47pm 15/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22796 posts
Yes! Because now we are quite confident that burning fuel is bad for the planet, so adding more tax to help deal with that and shift us to alternative energy sources makes sense (to me). At least we've fixed the fuel index pricing thingy which is a start.


So when our highways fall into disrepair you will just propose nothing be done (or do you suppose the money will be taken from elsewhere??). We do know that the fuel taxes collected will be funding Clean Energy bureaucracy. I enjoy seeing where these fantasies lead, inside people's heads. A continued degradation of our highways would surely end in civil disturbance (rioting).
06:35pm 15/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25234 posts
So when our highways fall into disrepair you will just propose nothing be done (or do you suppose the money will be taken from elsewhere??)
What sort of argument is this called again?
06:42pm 15/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22797 posts
What sort of argument is this called again?


it is a question. trog has suggested removing all fuel tax from funding roads. what is the alternative?
06:51pm 15/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11809 posts
http://i.imgur.com/NemD3Et.jpg



last edited by FaceMan at 18:54:23 15/Jul/15
06:51pm 15/07/15 Permalink
justrev
Melbourne, Victoria
543 posts
OO chocolate's on sale, thanks for the heads up faceman
07:00pm 15/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1737 posts
trog has suggested removing all fuel tax from funding roads. what is the alternative?


You have to be kidding. He is saying, like totally, the exact opposite of this. your posts are nearly one after the other. You deserved to be nuked from here on.

Because now we are quite confident that burning fuel is bad for the planet, so adding more tax to help deal with that and shift us to alternative energy sources makes sense (to me). At least we've fixed the fuel index pricing thingy which is a start.
07:10pm 15/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25235 posts
it is a question. trog has suggested removing all fuel tax from funding roads. what is the alternative?
heh, wow.

So infi, just so we're clear - would you still describe climate science as religious dogma and do you still believe it to be a left-wing wealth distribution conspiracy?
07:16pm 15/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22798 posts
You have to be kidding. He is saying, like totally, the exact opposite of this. your posts are nearly one after the other. You deserved to be nuked from here on.


I put the proposition:

Except that fuel taxes have always been about road maintenance and development. If you want to rewrite the narrative now and tell the voters these taxes will not be spent on roads anymore feel free...


to which trog replied

Yes!
HE REPLIED YES. why be so obtuse? you should be nuked from here on for blatant trolling.

climate change to me is an uncertain proposition and i don't believe it should be a basis for raising the cost of living. there are plenty of economic incentives already for people to reduce waste and save power because doing this lowers costs.
07:35pm 15/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25236 posts
Hey infi. There was some text following that Yes! and it had some pretty important stuff in it. Maybe you should read it because to not to would be obtuse.

climate change to me is an uncertain proposition and i don't believe it should be a basis for raising the cost of living. there are plenty of economic incentives already for people to reduce waste and save power because doing this lowers costs.
Well congratulations, you're an idiot, because it is not an uncertain proposition.
07:45pm 15/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22799 posts
Hey infi. There was some text following that Yes! and it had some pretty important stuff in it. Maybe you should read it because to not to would be obtuse.
yes, in addition trog, supported adding more taxes. we shall be all taxed to s***.

Well congratulations, you're an idiot, because it is not an uncertain proposition.


i guess the voters will be the judge of that.
07:51pm 15/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25237 posts
Here's the reality that is too hard for you accept.

Climate change is a real thing. It is happening now. When the full effects of it hit we are going to look back at this time and in particular people like you and curse the fact that you ever slithered from your mother's filth. You know those big events in history, that when looked back in hindsight seem so avoidable if only there weren't people with their heads up their arses pretending they weren't going to happen because they might have to sacrifice something to stop it? This has the potential to be one of the biggest. The right-wing knows it's most rabid supporters are pretty much dumb across the board. They knew a disinformation campaign would be very effective. They were right (no pun intended!)

Even if it was uncertain. Even if it was 50/50, it would still be worth taking drastic action. We're only playing with one dollar here. Once we lose that dollar we're f***ed. It's amazing the standard of proof (ie. tabloid Murdoch bulls***) you'll accept when it comes to believing all your dumb s*** compared to the absolute abundance of highly credible evidence you'll ignore when it doesn't conform to your dumb little world.

What is actually wrong with you? How did you get like this? I started posting all that daddy's boy s*** as a half-joke. Just something to rile you up. But it's true isn't it? You live in a cosy little world where you've been spoon fed life by heinous pieces of s***, haven't you? What is it with people like that. Reminds me of the Bob Dylan line... helpless like a rich man's child.

i guess the voters will be the judge of that.
Well no, voters don't judge reality. They will give a pretty accurate summary of how dumb we are as a nation and how effective the LNP et al disinformation campaign was.
08:03pm 15/07/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10515 posts
Climate Change is real. BUT Our climate is a dynamic system.

A percentage we can control.
Another percentage we can't control.

Climate change is a complicated topic.

Resources are not limitless. Thus mined energy is not limitless.
09:19pm 15/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38169 posts
yes, in addition trog, supported adding more taxes. we shall be all taxed to s***.
Options are: a) be taxed to s*** b) let everyone do whatever they want regardless of the cost to anyone else.

Failure to tax the utilisation of limited resources (that pollute) is basically how tragedy of the commons occurs.

(As a slightly related aside: from what I've read, the majority of road upkeep is needed because of the larger trucks and transports, which do a disproportionate amount of damage (based on the fuel they consume) to the roads, simply because they are massively heavier than regular civilian vehicles. I have read convincing arguments that indicate that there should be significantly higher taxes or rego or whatever on these vehicles because without them road maintenance costs would be significantly lower, and the fuel tax does not scale appropriately. I haven't looked into this in great detail though but it seems reasonable on the surface.)
09:41pm 15/07/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4950 posts


i guess the voters will be the judge of that.


Yeah voters being such good judges is how this country ended up with a dumbs*** like abbott leading the nation.
09:47pm 15/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38170 posts
So when our highways fall into disrepair you will just propose nothing be done (or do you suppose the money will be taken from elsewhere??). We do know that the fuel taxes collected will be funding Clean Energy bureaucracy. I enjoy seeing where these fantasies lead, inside people's heads. A continued degradation of our highways would surely end in civil disturbance (rioting).
and
trog has suggested removing all fuel tax from funding roads. what is the alternative?
I have no idea where you got this from. What made you think I said anything about stopping road maintenance? In any case, I said "adding more tax".

But see my above post (which I wrote before seeing these comments). It's not clear to me at the moment that a fuel tax is fair in the sense that at the moment many civilian motorists are subsidising the roads for shipping companies. (It's almost like this is an extremely complicated situation and there are a billion variables.)

To be clear, I never said, nor am advocating, removing taxes on fuel. Quite the opposite. I'm saying we should tax it more, and taxes on fuel should be considered to be funding for dealing with the externalities. (FWIW the fact that the tax on fuel goes to road maintenance is something that was done a billion years ago; it is possible to change how specific revenue generated from specific taxes is spent. )
09:49pm 15/07/15 Permalink
Audi
Perth, Western Australia
813 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
Send Private Message
09:52pm 15/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4576 posts
01:40am 16/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38172 posts
01:14pm 16/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1782 posts

It is nice that CGT is in there also. All income should be treated equally.

edit: also, lulz at people complaining about the ABC running a bus being a waste of taxpayers money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-16/bronwyn-bishop-agrees-pay-back-helicopter-flight/6623900


01:23pm 16/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9038 posts
I had a random thought this morning, how great would it be if the RBA decided to start refusing to lend money to banks for investment property - for funds on which the security is offered in this way. Banks would then have to source this money from other sources, which means the interest rates would likely be drastically higher. This would be great news for owner occupiers/buyers, as they'd be able to borrow decent amounts of money on the low interest rates, whereas investors wouldn't be able to afford to borrow as much - which consequentially would cause house prices to lower even further. This would be all round great for first home buyers.

I still definitely think though that negative gearing should cease to be offered on all purchases that aren't a new construction after a certain introduction date, and that over time negative gearing should only be available on commercial (not residential) property.
02:17pm 16/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7231 posts
If Hockey won't allow the review on Negative Gearing on Property then it is my opinion that he is corrupt and is not focused on the economic consequences of rampant property speculation.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/07/bozo-joe-lies-again-on-super-negative-gearing/

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 20:43:57 16/Jul/15
08:37pm 16/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9039 posts
Not actually changing anything is one thing, but not even allowing a review is certainly corrupt as hell.
08:51am 17/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17724 posts
Liberal and Labor are massively corrupted partied, it's systemic. Neither should be voted for and we should all be working on letting as many people know that as possible. It's the only way Australia will truly move forward.
09:44am 17/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
586 posts
We do have extradition laws that allow US citizens to be shipped back to Australia , i wonder if Mrs Depp the notorious dog smuggler will be rounded up by US marshals to face court in Australia?

Any one attempting to smuggle dogs into Australia will face a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in jail - for a first offence - under tough dog laws proposed by the Coalition.
09:59am 17/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2249 posts
and for the friday meme;

http://i57.tinypic.com/r040lk.jpg
09:29pm 17/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
588 posts
^ lol i don't have the skills so i am waiting for the B Bishop photo shop of her looking out of a helicopter with word balloon's "just going to the shops for a minute "etc etc etc.
08:47am 18/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4579 posts
Bishop standing firm. Seems the libs live under different rules than the rest of us. Disgusting.

Abbott in 2012:

'In court documents lodged yesterday, there are further serious allegations regarding potentially criminal misuse of taxpayer funds and breaches of entitlements.

"For any parliamentarian, let alone the Speaker, these would be very serious allegations.

"Against the Speaker, such allegations go to the integrity of the highest parliamentary office in the House of Representatives.

"While Mr Slipper is entitled to the presumption of innocence, these allegations unquestionably have the potential to damage the reputation of the office of Speaker and the standing of the Parliament.

"It is therefore incumbent on the Prime Minister, who used her numbers to install Mr Slipper as Speaker late last year, to require him to stand aside until these matters are concluded before the courts.

"The Australian Federal Police must immediately investigate these new allegations relating to criminal misuse of taxpayer funded entitlements.'

Abbott in 2015:

'I don't think it's appropriate to stand aside simply because the finance department might be having a look at something.'
05:28pm 18/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39603 posts
she would have seen nothing wrong with what she was doing.

they do live in a different world to the rest of us
06:21pm 18/07/15 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7386 posts
So I went looking for information on the petrol and diesel excises and road funding, and unfortunately the only decent source is from 2000. But guess what? It suggests that the excises don't fund roads.
Road Funding and Hypothecation

Over the period 1926 to 1959, the revenue from petrol excise was formally hypothecated for Commonwealth roads grants to the States. It is often argued that all or more of the revenue that the Federal (and State) governments raise by way of taxes and charges on motorists should be returned to motorists as increased spending on roads. In particular, it is argued that some or all revenue from petrol and diesel excises should be hypothecated for spending on roads. For example, the Australian Automobile Association has noted that it:

... continues to express the serious concern of the motoring public over the 'decoupling' of motorists' taxes from government spending on roads and transport facilities. Increasingly, motorists are a general target for taxation-receiving little in return for what they pay.

Such arguments usually have two separate but related elements. The first is the level of spending on roads. The House of Representatives Standing Committee on Communications, Transport and Microeconomic Reform in its 1997 report, Planning not Patching, addressed the level of Federal spending on roads. This issue is not discussed here.

The second element is how road expenditure should be financed. As noted, during the period 1926 to 1959, the Commonwealth hypothecated petrol excise to fund road grants to the States. In 1957, the Commonwealth introduced excise for diesel used on-road to remedy the anomaly of taxing petrol but not diesel. Revenue from diesel excise was used to fund road construction and maintenance. Hypothecation of petrol and diesel excises was discontinued in 1959 partly on the grounds that the practice of designating the proceeds of a tax to a particular purpose was deemed to be unsound from a public finance policy perspective. Rather, receipts should be paid into a common fund from which expenditures can be made for purposes deemed desirable. During the period 1959 to 1982, petrol and diesel excises were seen as a general revenue measure with rates raised to meet budgetary needs.

In 1982, the Fraser Government imposed a surcharge on petrol and diesel excises to provide grants to the States for road construction under the Australian Bicentennial Road Development Trust Fund Act 1982 (ABRD Act). The Australian Land Transport (Financial Assistance) Act 1985 (ALT Act) continued hypothecation. But unlike the ABRD Act, the ALT Act hypothecated a proportion of existing excise rather then imposing additional excise. The Australian Land Transport Development Act 1988 (ALTD Act)-which replaced the ABRD and ALT Acts-still contains provision for hypothecation. But the Department of Transport and Regional Development discontinued the practice of hypothecating a proportion of fuel excise to roads partly because hypothecation had no effect on funding levels.

Even though hypothecation has been discontinued, the impression remains that the level of Commonwealth spending on roads is linked to revenue from petrol and diesel excises. In fact, Commonwealth spending on roads is considerably less than revenue.
07:19pm 18/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22801 posts
The origial rationale for fuel excise was to fund roads. As was the rationale for extending the excise to on-road use of diesel. The exclusion of off'-road use of diesel supports this rationale. If fuel excise is simply a revenue raising (or climate change prevention lol) measure then all fuel would attract an excise. The voters should have that proposition put to them.

The Carbon tax was snuck into law without it on the electoral policy platform.

But then again if the purpose is revenue raising, then all fuel sources (renewable or not) would be taxed. So it is important to get the political narrative behind the purpose of the tax clear so the voters know why they are being taxed and they can then decide if they agree..

The price shock of the recent oil spike and the GFC did far more to curb carbon consumption than a carbon tax or fuel excise ever would.

@trog, i am trying to reconcile your response to my proposition:

If you want to rewrite the narrative now and tell the voters these taxes will not be spent on roads anymore feel free...


trog:

Yes! Because now we are quite confident that burning fuel is bad for the planet, so adding more tax to help deal with that and shift us to alternative energy sources makes sense (to me).


i read from this that you were in favour or rewriting the rationale using fuel tax to fund roads. And furthermore adding to the Australian taxpayer burden (and thus the overall size of govt, unless you are proposing tax reductions elsewhere).

one thing fuel and road haters (typically mass transit high speed rail types) fail to remember is that we will always need roads. when we invent hover cars maybe not so much but while rubber hits the ground we will always need roads. and well-funded roads reduce fatalities and increase productivity. so if we are not funding roads with fuel excise, or we in fact stop using fuel, have a think about how roads will be funded.
07:45pm 18/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4580 posts
AFP have refused to investigate Bishop?
Slipper was investigated..

This country is f***ed.
10:39pm 18/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38175 posts
i read from this that you were in favour or rewriting the rationale using fuel tax to fund roads. And furthermore adding to the Australian taxpayer burden (and thus the overall size of govt, unless you are proposing tax reductions elsewhere).
Yes, but I do not believe that increasing tax requires an increase in "the size of government"; that seems to be a popular libertarian meme in the USA particularly. I can see why it is seductive but it's just typical anti-big-government bulls*** (I am not pro big government)
one thing fuel and road haters (typically mass transit high speed rail types) fail to remember is that we will always need roads. when we invent hover cars maybe not so much but while rubber hits the ground we will always need roads. and well-funded roads reduce fatalities and increase productivity. so if we are not funding roads with fuel excise, or we in fact stop using fuel, have a think about how roads will be funded.
This has nothing to do with anything but I can see why you'd drop the strawman that high speed rail is bad because it aligns so neatly with the Liberal party's message. No idea why you'd do it in a conversation with people that actually are in the habit of tearing terrible positions apart for sport though.
11:23pm 18/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22803 posts
Yes, but I do not believe that increasing tax requires an increase in "the size of government"; that seems to be a popular libertarian meme in the USA particularly. I can see why it is seductive but it's just typical anti-big-government bulls*** (I am not pro big government)


so what happens with the more taxes collected? why collect them if not to spend them?

This has nothing to do with anything but I can see why you'd drop the strawman that high speed rail is bad because it aligns so neatly with the Liberal party's message. No idea why you'd do it in a conversation with people that actually are in the habit of tearing terrible positions apart for sport though.


you just stated

If you want to rewrite the narrative now and tell the voters these taxes will not be spent on roads anymore feel free...

>>Yes! Because now we are quite confident that burning fuel is bad for the planet, so adding more tax to help deal with that and shift us to alternative energy sources makes sense (to me).


if you are suggesting that fuel taxes not be spent on roads then how should roads be maintained? it is no strawman because it is your direct quote.
11:35pm 18/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25240 posts
Holy f*** you're dumb.
12:28am 19/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1739 posts
fight fight fight!

Infi those two sentences are obviously compatible. So obviously so, it shouldn't need to be pointed out.

A punative tax on fuel use that doesn't contribute directly to roads being built is not equivalent to all tax collected in association with road usage must now never be used for road maintenance.

obviously, like really really really obviously. The later option being an insane strawman and the only option that makes those statement incompatible. For a start we know 10km of tarmac isn't the only cost associated with 10km of road, that must be paid by someone unless you are an outright climate science denier.

you might want to talk to someone about your straw addiction.
02:36pm 19/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38176 posts
so what happens with the more taxes collected? why collect them if not to spend them?
I am not saying not to spend them - you're putting words in my mouth to make it seem like I'm advocating a massive pork barrel project at the expense of the taxpayer. Contrary to popular small government groupthink, it is possible for government to collect revenue and spend it wisely, on (for example) things that are not helicopter rides to party fundraisers.

There is a direct analogy that can be made to the private sector - a company that has a good year and increases their revenue does not need to then go and blow it on randomly increasing headcount or whatever. They can return it to the shareholders. Similarly, government can spend money on things that improve the quality of life of citizens without necessarily becoming a huge bloated monstrosity. Of course there are examples of profligate waste (see: helicopter rides). The size of the entity may wax or wane but it doesn't really matter - what matters is outcomes.

Anyway, let's just stipulate that the above is true. I'm basically just saying extra more taxes collected on those that burn more petrol could go into any number of projects that help reduce our dependency on fossil fuels. It could go to the Clean Energy Finance Corp where it could be used to directly fund more energy research, carbon sequestration plants, funding for electric charging stations to help build out our charging network... whatever. What matters though is that we accept that burning fossil fuels has these externalities and we start dealing with them.
if you are suggesting that fuel taxes not be spent on roads then how should roads be maintained?
the bit you quoted literally says "adding more tax"; I am not proposing we suddenly stop maintaining roads.
it is no strawman because it is your direct quote.
the strawman is bringing up high speed rail and saying I'm making the conversation about letting the roads generate into a Mad Max-esque unmaintained desert wasteland
03:55pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17726 posts
I read somewhere that party leaders and officials should be held accountable for the spending of people within their party. For example, Abbott should be held responsible for Bishops choice of flying a chopper and should be fined the amount it cost to use the chopper.

There is obviously no reason why a chopper should have been used over road transport, it wasn't an emergency. It was fraud plain and simple, Bishop is only sorry for it because she was caught.

However pointing the finger to a particular party member or party is completely missing the point, retarded s*** like hiring a chopper for a simple trip shouldn't be possible or acceptable under the current guidelines and rules, the laws obviously need addressing.

Good luck with that though, both Liberal and Labor or corrupt as s*** and wont go after their own perks.

05:24pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4581 posts
Gillard was driven in a ford to Geelong as prime minister.
Abbott changes gov vehicles to BMW, and used his private jet to meet up with a mining magnate in Melbourne.
Then you got bishop... 88k europe trip, helicopter to geelong..
Typical LNP entitlement attitude.

The Labor travel rort pales in comparison.
05:30pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17727 posts
Liberals only upped the anti, if people didn't find out Labor would have followed suit.

Labor are just as bad, you are still a thief you steel $50 or $50000, it's just how far you think you can go without getting caught.
05:38pm 19/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25242 posts
Transfield: Nauru detention centre operator receives dozens of sexual and other abuse allegations/

The company responsible for running the Nauru detention centre has revealed it has received dozens of allegations of sexual and other abuse at the facility.

Transfield Services told a Senate inquiry it received 67 allegations of child abuse up until May this year and 30 of them were against detention centre staff.

Thirty-three asylum seekers allege they have been raped or sexually assaulted at the centre and another five claim they have been asked for sexual favours in exchange for contraband.

Transfield said all allegations had been referred to the Immigration Department.

The answers were provided "on notice" to the Senate Select Committee on the Recent Allegations relating to Conditions and Circumstances at the Regional Processing Centre in Nauru which held its hearing in Canberra in May.

The inquiry's first witnesses were from Transfield, but many questions from senators failed to elicit direct responses, with Transfield managers taking them "on notice" to be answered later.

The company won a 20-month $1.2 billion tender from the Australian Government to manage the facility in February 2014.


I haven't seen it mentioned here, but everyone knows about the Border Force Act right? It makes it punishable by imprisonment for people to report on sexual abuse allegations. Here's a link to an article about it.

clicky

How can this be considered to be anything but 100% evil? Not only is the government turning a blind eye towards abuse allegations, they're now actively trying to suppress them from coming out by threatening people with prison. How is this not the worst thing ever done by an Australian government since they attempted genocide against indigenous Australians? How is it not one of the worst things done by any modern western government?
06:34pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9041 posts
Liberals only upped the anti, if people didn't find out Labor would have followed suit.

Yeah - anti-workers rights, anti-unions, anti-healthcare, anti-public transport, anti-gay... wait you meant ante?
06:54pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4582 posts
Yep its frightening. This government is scary, and whats even more scary on top of that, people don't care.
People aren't engaged in politics enough, and they get away with so much.
08:07pm 19/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17728 posts

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but everyone knows about the Border Force Act right? It makes it punishable by imprisonment for people to report on sexual abuse allegations. Here's a link to an article about it.


Good thing that doctors, nurses, etc are just ignoring it and speaking out anyway. They wrote an open letter to the government daring them to bring the case forward in court, Abbott knows he aint got s*** and wont do it. He was just doing his usual bullying tactic.
08:29pm 19/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7235 posts
You forgot anti-fairness
09:37am 20/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7238 posts
08:17pm 20/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2251 posts
10:35pm 20/07/15 Permalink
Vash
4583 posts
So glad this mud is sticking to Bishop, especially after the millions wasted on the union royal commission.
The LNP can't win elections legitimately.
They hunt via royal commissions, propaganda via News Corp, under the guise of free press because it's a private corporation.

The only true independent media outlet is the ABC and the guardian.

They scrutinise government regardless of their political preference.
The right takes criticism as bias, which is pretty crazy.

Though certainly interesting that the right is helping the mud stick to bishop, when they've ignored so many atrocities by this government.
10:27am 21/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17730 posts
https://scontent-nrt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11707684_10153180976163800_6102847695938045529_n.jpg?oh=dd0ef8b512954f011141a323cf220fc2&oe=56101A41

Says a lot really, considering how Abbott and friends treated Slipper. What a s*** government we currently have, easily amongst the worst in Australian History. Must feel good to have voted these clowns in, particularly with lots of people saying how crap they will be.
11:22am 21/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
417 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Dumb
Send Private Message
11:29am 21/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25250 posts
The scary thing is it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'll be re-elected. Can you imagine another term with these muppets at the helm?
11:44am 21/07/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4400 posts
apparently Abbott has told Bishop to stay out of trouble from now on

it's got to be against some kind of convention for a prime minister to discipline a speaker publicly

put Malcolm in already
10:51pm 21/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11815 posts
How about The big GST sell we are currently being brainwashed into accepting.
Abbot said no change to GST and anyway, it can only be done with all the Premiers... then he cuts the money to the States, suddenly the States need more revenue, more GST.

...
1. It is at first denied that any radical new plan exists;

2. it is then conceded that it exists but ministers swear blind that it is not even on the political agenda;

3. it is then noted that it might well be on the agenda but is not a serious proposition;

4. it is later conceded that it is a serious proposition but that it will never be implemented;

5. after that it is acknowledged that it will be implemented but in such diluted form that it will make no difference to the lives of ordinary people;

6. at some point it is finally recognised that it has made such a difference, but it was always known that it would and voters were told so from the outset.

...I think we are at #4
10:53pm 21/07/15 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3776 posts
yeah the GST thing has me seriously concerned. When the GST first came in it replaced sales tax which varied from product to product so the impact of GST differed depending on what you were buying, some things got dearer, some things got cheaper. But now they are talking about raising it to 15% which means everything will cost 5% more, practically raising the cost of living by 5% overnight.

They made a big deal about how the carbon tax made electricity bills dearer and yet they are now turning around and want to increase them by 5%, along with everything else.

Talk of raising the GST needs to be a death flag for any political party.
11:56pm 21/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17734 posts

Talk of raising the GST needs to be a death flag for any political party.


No it doesn't. It should be considered.

An increase to the tax free threshold should also coincide with a hike in GST to compensate low income earners, and a slight increase in middle income tax % so middle to higher income earners don't get a free ride.
07:27am 22/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39616 posts
raise the medicare levy
07:40am 22/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1784 posts
GST needs to be raised to cover medical expenses due to our aging population.

Super taxes and CGT don't need to be fixed though. Huh.

Well played baby boomers, well played...
07:48am 22/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17735 posts
Taxes and welfare payments need to be completely revised into a much simpler system. Negative Tax is probably one of the easiest ways. Median income = 0% tax, increase the tax as your earn more, decrease the tax as you earn less. So someone on 1/2 median wage gets taxed at -35% or whatever. That is their welfare payment.
10:23am 22/07/15 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3777 posts


No it doesn't. It should be considered.

An increase to the tax free threshold should also coincide with a hike in GST to compensate low income earners, and a slight increase in middle income tax % so middle to higher income earners don't get a free ride.
Raising the tax free threshold doesn't do much for people who already live below it, all it does is put further pressure on their already precarious economic situation.
12:44pm 22/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17737 posts

Raising the tax free threshold doesn't do much for people who already live below it, all it does is put further pressure on their already precarious economic situation.


Well f***, somebody has to pay for their living GST is among the fairer of taxes, at least it captures higher income earners more as well as business spending. Can't easily ship GST over to Singapore for example.

Increasing the threshold will help those that are actually earning a living though, the other option is to slightly increase the threshold and pump up welfare payments to counter the GST increase. However if this was done then also lower income tax rates.
01:45pm 22/07/15 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
193 posts
GST needs to be raised to cover medical expenses due to our aging population.

Super taxes and CGT don't need to be fixed though. Huh.

Well played baby boomers, well played...

F*** our aging population. We need a 2 tier healthcare system. One of us and one of those old f*****s who have no insurance and no savings and arent paying for the current system.

We also need to put a cap on life extending procedures on anyone past 80. If you're in bed 24/7 what;s the point in staying alive? Seriously time to go masterblaster.

The above comments are just crazy ideas about aging pop and are by no means a reflection of my current state of mind.
04:04pm 22/07/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7240 posts
Another great big tax...
04:17pm 22/07/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1785 posts

F*****g hilarious. Every time anyone tried to suggest tax reform, the libs were like we have a spending problem not a revenue problem.

Now it's like lets just relax and look into regressive taxes.

How about starting with all those f*****g suggestions we had a paid inquiry into by one of the howard gov's senior tax advisors?

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/finalreport.aspx?doc=html/publications/papers/final_report_part_1/chapter_12.htm

The arguments for these reforms are literally laid out for the politicians to go to the public with in the report. Jesus titty f*****g christ I feel like it's the muppet show come to canberra, I can only imagine how Ken Henry feels.


09:49pm 22/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
591 posts
Tony Abbott
Commonwealth Star might need updating “to be a seven-pointed star rather than a six-pointed star”.
http://s1.picofile.com/file/7107864187/3_resize.jpg
Now children! pay attention, Unky Tony is going to count to potato.
04:01pm 23/07/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10517 posts
Faceman, Tax is about inputs and outputs.

Currently both sides look at the inputs (TAXES).

Neither side want to tell the population a hard truth ... you are going to die. It's a fact. No seriously, we are all going to die! When/why/How are all artifacts of a truth ... you are going to die!

So there is a table/graph/relationship.

Age at death vs. Money spent treating random conditions that are going to kill you!

We could just change what "we the people" are willing to pay for. Is a patient in the the communal sense capable of ever paying back the community investment into their condition? ... A question too far and I am not sure why? Should anyone over 60 get heart/lung surgery on the public purse? (I say no)

Why can someone on the public purse claim "no blood products" ... even on heart surgery ... i.e. JWs... And cause the costs start to go crazy!
10:04pm 23/07/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2253 posts
We could just change what "we the people" are willing to pay for. Is a patient in the the communal sense capable of ever paying back the community investment into their condition? ... A question too far and I am not sure why? Should anyone over 60 get heart/lung surgery on the public purse? (I say no)

Why can someone on the public purse claim "no blood products" ... even on heart surgery ... i.e. JWs... And cause the costs start to go crazy!


What did they contribute during their working life?

Why bother with any major surgery, cancer, resetting bones etc just kill them and let the living get on with it. Would it be cheaper to supply 9mm?

When you get a cold can I come over and fix it for you?
10:18pm 23/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
594 posts
A guy has been arrested here in Australia for joining (he never actually left Australia) a foreign army to fight the bad guys,i am perplexed this is like being arrested for trying to join the Foreign Legion.

Maybe it's illegal for Australians to go join any army overseas.
12:02pm 28/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1741 posts
The legislation says that you are naughty (well really naughty, life imprisonment naughty) if you are thinking of fighting with a declared organisation.

I'd be surprised if the Foreign Legion is a declared organisation. By all accounts the Assad regime isn't declared, so you can go fight the good fight against IS if you want, you just have to pick the right team. In this case the right team is almost certainly guilty of serious war crimes.
12:18pm 28/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17756 posts
^^ makes no sense
03:00pm 28/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
596 posts
I dunno PP arresting people who want to help others regardless of their political religious or war standing especially in a time of relative peace is the short end of the straw who's next on the list Dr's without borders nurses charities all of whom see that there are human beings in need even if they are in a war zone.

Soon people will be arrested for walking down the street where bikers or any other group the Government brands as undesirable in short i have my outrage hat on how dare the government stop an Australian from going to war for a cause that in their eyes is just and humane.

The German Government had the same attitude when they went after the French resistance the Abbott Government is repeating history going after people who history will remember as people who tried to make a difference.
03:40pm 28/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1742 posts
I wasn't expressing approval of the law. I thought the quip about being able to legally fight for Assad fairly clearly conveyed my attitude but evidently not.

I think Nazi parallels are a little dramatic for laws designed to prevent people making probably the worst mistake of their life.
03:59pm 28/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17757 posts


I think Nazi parallels are a little dramatic for laws designed to prevent people making probably the worst mistake of their life.


It's part of the overall context though, with other laws and views the PM and his party have expressed, it's easy for people to make the comparison.
06:17pm 28/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25256 posts
RE: the LNP both major parties asylum seeker policy.

http://i.imgur.com/GCoqbK6.png
06:19pm 28/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11819 posts
Daylight Savings is back on the agenda.
South Australia is moving to EST
Only Australia will be doing the summer time warp. (and WA)

Its time.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-28/time-zone-shift-to-est-favoured-by-sa-gov/6653614

06:20pm 28/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11820 posts
Only Australia will be doing the summer time warp. (and WA)


oops i meant QLD.
08:01pm 28/07/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1002 posts
oops i meant QLD.


Same thing.
08:54pm 28/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
598 posts
Are we living in dictatorship ? i think we might be, the latest example, divorce apparently and i didn't know this The federal Government gets some sort of divorce tax which T Abbott and his henchmen went to the parliament with the idea of raising up to an outrageous amount, needless to say the bill was rejected by every one in parliament.

Not to be put off our dictator waited till every ones back was turned and brought the bill in any way and now the bill is being challenged in the courts.
12:45pm 29/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1746 posts
I'm not totally sure that something being voted down, and when an abuse of democratic process occurs, the courts stepping in is a great example of imminent dictatorship.

Maybe that's just me.

When Abbott tables an "enabling act" I'll start to worry about a hitleresque take over.
12:51pm 29/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17760 posts
many customers, staff, and constituents do not know how to properly express themselves but it does not mean their opinion is any less meritorious, and they should be allowed their say.

leaders who shut down criticism with sanctions go broke or lose government. those consequences dont really matter here as this forum doesn't seem important to its owners. (fun place to swing by and drop a ban every now and then if things are quite.)


Like having ISIS supporters appear on Q&A and then baring any MP from going on the show, lolz
07:19pm 29/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22814 posts
a criminal and rape supporter, not interested in genuine comment but grandstanding. LOL
07:23pm 29/07/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25263 posts
a criminal and rape supporter, not interested in genuine comment but grandstanding. LOL
I too found Scott Morrison's appearance distasteful.
07:26pm 29/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17761 posts

a criminal and rape supporter, not interested in genuine comment but grandstandin

...

many customers, staff, and constituents do not know how to properly express themselves but it does not mean their opinion is any less meritorious, and they should be allowed their say.



Unless infi doesn't like them lolz
07:47pm 29/07/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10520 posts
We are leaderless.
Neither side has a view, opinion or call to arms worth looking at.
They are all self serving serpents on a 24 hour news cycle.

I was in Philadelphia (home of Rocky, oh and the Declaration of Liberty and US Constitution) when the US supreme court legalized same sex marriage. We are the last civilized place in the world that has not legalized gay marriage!!!!

Once upon a time we were the radical progressives. We were the first real country to give women the vote (sure NZ beat us but they are all but a state of Australia).

At least in America every second term, they get a leader (President can't get a 3rd term ... FDR is the only exception!)

Here we have news.com and 2 conservative parties that tell us legalizing gay marriage will lead to bestiality (... slippery slope argument ... really?)
08:01pm 29/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38199 posts
At least in America every second term, they get a leader (President can't get a 3rd term ... FDR is the only exception!)
Doesn't make any difference though; they are still just figureheads of the party and everything they want to do is stymied by the fact that the political system here has been reduced to a completely ineffective two party system. There is no subtelty to politics.

I thought this recent slashdot comment summarised things well:
I think the biggest problem is that a two party system completely dumbs down the whole process of government and removes nuance. If you're pro-gun, you pretty much have to be a Republican and if you're pro-gay, you pretty much have to be a Democrat.

Remove the winner-take-all election contents and rather divide districts such that they elect several representatives from each district. This eventually leads to choices that don't exist along party lines and you can find a candidate that more closely represents your views (e.g., pro-gun, pro-gay, anti-abortion, pro-immigration, etc.) that has a reasonable chance at election.
The scariest fate I can imagine for Australia is one where there's just the Liberals and Labor. Fortunately our political system seems more innately resistant to the effects of the two party system. But it's one of the reasons why I built that voting thing a while back.

I just hope Australians turn out to be better than Americans at democracy and we see more people voting independents and smaller parties.

At least Bernie Sanders looks like the goods for the US. Dude needs a haircut advisor though.
01:18am 30/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38208 posts

This article about Uber is pretty interesting: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-30/lack-of-taxi-competition-costing-40-million-a-year-report-says/6659610

I thought this bit is worth highlighting:

The 69-year-old bought a taxi licence with her husband 20 years ago in the hope of funding a comfortable retirement, but that now looks unlikely.

"This time last year we could have sold it for $560,000 and now nobody is interested in buying them," she said.

"We've advertised it for sale and got nothing. No response whatsoever."

Ms Hall said she blamed Uber for disrupting the industry and frightening potential investors.

"Why would anybody buy into something that has such an uncertainty to it? Every business has risk but this is ridiculous risk," she said.
It is an interesting side of the Uber debate. I don't think the government owes people a guarantee that their investment is going to pay off but certainly by failing to enforce a fair playing field - which is entirely 100% their obligation while the laws are as they are in Qld - is not appropriate.

I was recently in BNE and got Ubers basically everywhere. I was in town one night and saw a taxi rank near the Vic that was as long as I've ever seen it. Then I walked around the corner and got an Uber, and felt a lot of guilt until I got home and realised it cost me probably half of what a cab would have paid. I did get a couple taxis while I was there too to try to balance things out but it's clear that as long as Uber is tolerated, the value of the taxi license is pretty close to zero.

I am not sure how they can transition these licenses over in a fair way, short of having the government pay these people off, which does not seem particularly appropriate. I haven't seen any transition plans; wondering if anyone else has?


11:27pm 30/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
603 posts
What an odd observation 'the government paying them off" coming from the land of free enterprise, when all the corner shops disappeared because of the influx of Coles and Woolies no one expected the Government to buy off Cole and Woolworth's.

The only reason Uber is a thorn in the Governments side is that Taxis have to pay a license fee of $20,000 +/- and uber basically do as they please at half the price.
11:57pm 30/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38209 posts
What an odd observation 'the government paying them off" coming from the land of free enterprise
that is not an observation, nor something I said, so not sure why it's in quotes
The only reason Uber is a thorn in the Governments side is that Taxis have to pay a license fee of $20,000 +/- and uber basically do as they please at half the price.
"As of October 2014, standard Taxi Licences are selling at around $525,000.00 plus Stamp Duty (approximately $17,700.00 based on a purchase price of $525,000.00) plus GST if applicable" (source). It is not a mere $20,000 license fee; as noted in the article I quoted these are massive major life investments for many people that probably came at the expense of buying property.
12:05am 31/07/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
604 posts
Ahh well, remote controlled cars are almost here so i guess we will resume this conversation when their are Johnny cabs available.

And you did say "short of having the government pay these people off,"
12:49am 31/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17767 posts

It is an interesting side of the Uber debate. I don't think the government owes people a guarantee that their investment is going to pay off but certainly by failing to enforce a fair playing field - which is entirely 100% their obligation while the laws are as they are in Qld - is not appropriate.



It could be argued that the fair playing field was destroyed when taxi regulation was implemented. By implementing the regulations it created these $500,000 taxi licenses, effectively locking out people from the industry that couldn't afford the exorbitant fees.

Now Uber has come along and managed to disrupt this regulation and have now made the field fair. Unfortunately for the taxi license holders, their unfair rules are no longer applicable.

In other words, people paid for a taxi license to get access to the unfair playing field they perceived as a 'safe' investment. Turns out their business decision was wrong. If you protect taxi licenses because they are considered investments, does that mean you have to protect every other possible investment? How come the government doesn't make sure my stock purchases only return a positive income?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 10:08:37 31/Jul/15
10:06am 31/07/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38213 posts
If you protect taxi licenses because they are considered investments, does that mean you have to protect every other possible investment?
The investment was sold based on the knowledge that the government was going to regulate the industry. They have been able to do this relatively easily in the pre-Uber days, so it's never been an issue before. Now there is a new entrant in the market that is not operating according to the rules that the government promised when those licenses were sold.
11:04am 31/07/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17768 posts

The investment was sold based on the knowledge that the government was going to regulate the industry. They have been able to do this relatively easily in the pre-Uber days, so it's never been an issue before. Now there is a new entrant in the market that is not operating according to the rules that the government promised when those licenses were sold.


They are operating according to the rules, the rules as they are don't apply to their service.
Uber is considered a disruptive strategy, by it's very nature governments generally don't have the foresight to pre-regulate these technologies/strategies.

Every investment has risks, and disruptive technologies/strategies is one of these risks. They don't happen often, but they can happen. It's a bit unfair to protect one business from this risk, but ignore others.
Again, I bought my Stocks in X business because it was a solid business that has never had an issue before, operating within government regulations. Why should I be allowed to lose money on that if another Business comes along that simply destroys X's market share if Taxi's are given that same treatment?

It's not like Uber came out of nowhere, it's been building up. It hit international markets before Australia, the savvy business owner should be keeping tabs on the ecology of their business strategy. People had plenty of time to bail, they still can, perhaps they wont get the premium price they wanted on their license.
11:24am 31/07/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1754 posts
But trog those people who bought in didn't buy their license from government.

They might have bought with the expectation that the market was going to remain as it was, but that's just risk.

There is no way for us to be able have a system like uber and for taxi licences to remain as valuable as they are (or more correctly were).

It happened to the Luddites, it happened to liverpool port when the steam boat transition happened, it happened to the music industry and to journalists.

Should the government compensate channel 9 for the fact that their terrestrial broadcast licence is clearly worth less now than in the 80's?

they might be more able to take the hit than mum and pop taxi owners but the principle remains the same.
11:34am 31/07/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22821 posts
12:48pm 31/07/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39630 posts
yup, i got no issues with this either.

its sad for people who get caught out, but life isnt fair.
01:14pm 31/07/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2745 posts

I'm not sure it's the government's responsibility to ensure random people's random choice of investments for retirement retain value over long periods of time, the market doesn't work that way and exerting that much control on the market would probably have other adverse affects.

Those people should have a) not hedged their bets on a taxi license investment or at the very least b) monitored the market of their investment, noted any changes/trends and adjusted their investments accordingly. That's the risk management innit.

The taxi industry in many countries has long been in need of a shake up, it's expensive and has a poor quality of service. I like that Uber is disrupting it through decent competition and reducing prices, increasing quality and providing jobs. I do think it's a shame they didn't include the existing taxi drivers in that endeavour, surely existing taxi drivers could also be Uber drivers?

As some have mentioned, similar things have happened in other previously over-regulated stagnant industries. It's necessary and for the most part has mostly good outcomes. Progress!

In other news, the best way to cut global emissions is a carbon tax! Thanks Abbott!

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21660124-wind-and-solar-energy-are-increasingly-competitive-lot-has-change-they-can-make?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fpe%2Fed%2FPuffsOfHope


08:28pm 31/07/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11833 posts
04:40pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39635 posts
bronny has done the honorable thing for a horrible out of touch politician and resigned.

hopefully the afp will still get involved and investigate her incredible greed.

last edited by Spook at 17:10:55 02/Aug/15
05:01pm 02/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22824 posts
she had to go. snout in the trough is never a good look.
05:14pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17774 posts

she had to go. snout in the trough is never a good look.


Just like Tonez and his family haha


From her Resignation Letter:

I have not taken this decision lightly, however it is because of my love and respect for the institution of Parliament and the Australian people that I have resigned as Speaker



What s***, she happily stole (oh, sorry she did it within the rules, morality aside) money from the public purse to pay for her shenanigans time and time again. Finally she is busted for it enough to quite. She has no respect for the institution of Parliament.

She can't even resign without lying. Worst Speaker in Australian history, to go along with one of the worst governments.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 17:46:29 02/Aug/15
05:40pm 02/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22825 posts
huh?
05:44pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17775 posts
Oh you forgot about his daughter being gifted that design degree scholarship. You won't count that though.
05:47pm 02/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22826 posts
Oh you forgot about his daughter being gifted that design degree scholarship. You won't count that though.


what has that got to do with travel entitlements...
05:59pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17776 posts
Oh, so when you say snouts in the trough you actually mean travel entitlements, my mistake. To be fair, it's easily confused.
06:22pm 02/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25270 posts
But infi I thought the adults were back in charge and the age of entitlement was over?
06:55pm 02/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22827 posts
it is, and bronywn is gone. $6,000 chopper rides don't cut it. the system has worked, abbott has lead from the front.
07:18pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17777 posts

the system has worked, abbott has lead from the front.


Only because people kept on finding out more. He even said he doesn't think she did anything wrong, he didn't care the first time she was busted, nor the second I think, but it just kept coming.

Unless you call that the system, where a 'leader' will only do something when it threatens his political party, nothing else. Remember Peter Slipper and how Abbott was frothing to have him investigated, not Bishop tho...

So I wouldn't be giving Abbott any credit whatsoever.
07:24pm 02/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22828 posts
it's a big deal to sack a Speaker. Abbott acted when the right amount of discontent was swirling.

Slipper dealt with Cabcharges in a dishonest fashion. Criminal conduct.

Bronwyn, did what everyone in Parliament does to a matter of degree: she combined personal and parliamentary business to enjoy taxpayer funded private travel. It's dodgy, Wayne Swan took a private taxpayer funded charter to the NRL grand final which he no doubt stated was official business.

MPs wanted her to get busted but wont be too happy about the review of travel entitlements as they all like to enjoy it.
07:40pm 02/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25271 posts
Yes, after Abbott used every weasel tactic in the book to evade the truth he did eventually accept her resignation. Point was that it happened and the adults were meant to be back in charge and the age of entitlement was meant to be over.

What about Abbott's daughter getting the scholarship in extremely shady circumstances which would have had you drowning in your own froth had it happened under Labor? Nothing was done about that apart from prosecuting the whistle-blower. And then later on she was able to enter her painting of Abbott late in an art competition after he intervened. Or are you just going to cherry pick what entitlement means in your own little truth evading endeavour?
08:42pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10528 posts
There was no leadership to be seen here. She resigned after it became beyond a joke.

The party should still be on Tony ass about the complete lack of leadership on the issue.
09:35pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17778 posts

The party should still be on Tony ass about the complete lack of leadership on the issue.


Lol except there are gullible people like infi still around as a potential voter.

Also


Abbott acted when the right amount of discontent was swirling.


Exactly as I said, he only cared when it became a threat to his political position. He doesn't give a s*** about Australians, he doesn't care about political integrity. He isn't an adult in charge, he is nothing more than a child bickering with his friends. Our entire political system at the moment is children pointing the fingers at each other 'mummy he did it' , 'AWww but they all did it, so shhh'

Whatever. Liberal is a joke, Labor is a joke.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:54:38 02/Aug/15
09:52pm 02/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2746 posts
Giant douches or turd sandwiches, make your choice!



Can't find any better versions, soz.
06:21am 03/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17782 posts

Tony Abbott ✔@TonyAbbottMHR

The Speaker's resignation reflects a government that is in chaos. The Govt has lost its way, lost its majority and now lost its speaker.
4:41 PM - 23 Nov 2011


Hahah haha.. hahahahahahah


Yeah That Tonez has shown real leadership. fkn lol
10:02pm 03/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38214 posts
They are operating according to the rules, the rules as they are don't apply to their service.
Uber is considered a disruptive strategy, by it's very nature governments generally don't have the foresight to pre-regulate these technologies/strategies.
The rules 100% should apply! It sounds like you've been drinking the Uber kool-aid - it is a taxi company. You request a car, they come to get you and take you to your destination. All that s*** about "ride sharing" is bulls*** (although some cities do have a "share" option in Uber; I noticed it in LA recently).
Again, I bought my Stocks in X business because it was a solid business that has never had an issue before, operating within government regulations. Why should I be allowed to lose money on that if another Business comes along that simply destroys X's market share if Taxi's are given that same treatment?
because Other Business is breaking the law

That's all it comes down to - Uber is breaking the laws in almost every region it is running. Where it has not been explicitly granted a method to operate (like it has here where I am currently in Columbus), it is typically violating a number of city laws about unlicensed car services.

This is not really up for debate; it's a simple matter of fact. I don't want to sound like I'm pro-taxi/anti-Uber, but I think there is a valid case for those people complaining who made an investment when the government guaranteed they'd protect it by stopping other actors from breaking the laws.
Those people should have a) not hedged their bets on a taxi license investment or at the very least b) monitored the market of their investment, noted any changes/trends and adjusted their investments accordingly. That's the risk management innit.
I don't disagree, but the state of affairs AS THEY STAND RIGHT NOW, is that Uber is an unlicensed taxi company and they are operating illegally. The compact taxi license owners have with the government basically says we'll play by the rules as long as you make sure everyone else plays by the rules. The market has to be fair otherwise it will degenerate into chaos.

Again I do think the industry needs to be changed. I think a p2p license like we have here in Columbus is a perfectly valid solution, although I think Australian p2p drivers should have to have more insurance. S***, Uber prices in Brisbane could go up by 50% and it'd still be significantly cheaper than a taxi.
11:27pm 03/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38215 posts
Bishop should be getting investigated for criminal misuse of taxpayer funds. You can argue "oh it was within the rules" all you want, but at the end of the day these people are not children. They are entrusted with high powers and strong discretionary spending so they can serve the citizens of Australia. There should not need to be a 30,000 page document that details how and when their funding can be used.

I am 100% in support of government officials being able to charter a helicopter if they need to. But it must be a dire need.

I've also read comments indicating that Bishop will now get some ridiculously high government pension as well as, most ironically, an ongoing travel allowance?
11:35pm 03/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2255 posts
I am 100% in support of government officials being able to charter a helicopter if they need to. But it must be a dire need.


And in what universe would a politician have a dire need that isn't covered by proper planning?

I've also read comments indicating that Bishop will now get some ridiculously high government pension as well as, most ironically, an ongoing travel allowance?


Indeed she will. Because all politicians are highly protective of their entitlements. Jellyfish Joe is protective of his living away from home allowance which is paid to his wife who owns the property he rents ($125k per year) is just a small example. If the words poor or seniors are mention then there is no entitlement..
12:04am 04/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38217 posts
And in what universe would a politician have a dire need that isn't covered by proper planning?
War, is the obvious one that comes to mind. A natural disaster.
12:30am 04/08/15 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7959 posts
in other news - if we want to save the world we need the mericans to elect Bernie Sanders

then we need a Bernie clone in Aust
12:54am 04/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17784 posts
Turns out they are indeed breaking the law. Uber drivers seem to be getting fined for it, however Uber is picking up the tab. So, the laws are being followed, they are just either inadequate to prevent Uber from operating or they should be scrapped to allow companies like uber to operate free of fines.


If laws are supposed to be a reflection of the communities will, and the community as a whole is happy with an uber-like service, should the laws be changed to deregulated the taxi industry?
08:51am 04/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38218 posts
Turns out they are indeed breaking the law. Uber drivers seem to be getting fined for it, however Uber is picking up the tab. So, the laws are being followed, they are just either inadequate to prevent Uber from operating or they should be scrapped to allow companies like uber to operate free of fines.
Yeh. They are cherry picking people to fine. Last I checked we (govt of Qld) had fined Uber like $1.4m. I love the idea of taking all that phat US VC money and bringing it into the country via fines.

Clearly they can stop it more or less instantly - a handful of cops with phones would be enough to shut down Uber and hand out punishing fines for a few days until they get the message. Hell, every transgressor is not only listed on a map, but they'll come to you if you press a button. So I don't buy that it's hard to enforce the laws, which is something I think taxi drivers also have a fair claim to be whining about.
09:28am 04/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1757 posts
that sounds like textbook entrapment.
10:09am 04/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9051 posts
I don't think you understand what entrapment is.
10:13am 04/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1758 posts
why is it not entrapment?

The officer by definition would be commissioning the offence by using the platform.

*edit*, thanks for pointing that out Raven. The case in Australia for entrapment is Ridgeway v R (1995). Dude was allowed to pass through customs with a large amount of heroin by arrangement with the AFP.

the AFP was found to have engaged in both improper and illegal conduct and so evidence of street sale and importation had to be excluded from the prosecution. the result of that was the guys conviction was overturned.

Given that ordering an Uber is illegal in Victoria, as is being an uber driver, using the platform would entail the officer in question breaking the law in order to get someone else to break the law.

The court would probably be unwilling to exercise its discretion because the stakes are so low, but I would argue it for certain. Especially seeing as the police could just demand Uber hand over records, and sue that way.

There is no need to engage illegal activity when there is a metre perfect record of every single crime.
10:22am 04/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2256 posts
And in what universe would a politician have a dire need that isn't covered by proper planning?
War, is the obvious one that comes to mind. A natural disaster.


War is covered by the ADF, and in any case, politicians are not a priority. They do not have a dire need. Politicians aren't needed at a natural disaster they don't have a "dire need" to be there. They are needed in their offices cutting through the inertia that can occur. In both of these cases they attend due to "political/publicity needs".
11:26am 04/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38220 posts
They are needed in their offices cutting through the inertia that can occur.
Yes, I agree. Sadly, not all emergencies occur when they're already in their offices!
11:55am 04/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9052 posts
An officer committing an offence doesn't make anything entrapment. The litmus test is whether a normal, reasonable and honest person would have behaved in that way and/or broken that law when placed in the position in which they find themselves - for example, an officer placing someone in a position where they feel their life is in danger and a person would reasonably be expected to violate laws to remove themselves from that position - that would be entrapment.

An officer leaving a car parked on the street with the keys in the ignition and having the person steal it because it was there is not something a reasonable person would do, and is not entrapment. The same applies for Uber. It's not entrapment because noone's forcing you to operate as a driver, you do that entirely on your own undertaking.
01:18pm 04/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1759 posts
With respect,

I argued that Uber drivers (just the drivers) would be able to argue entrapment in my criminal law exam last year (which was literally on the legality of Uber) and came in the 90th percentile for the subject.

I'm going to take my lecturer's opinion on what constitutes entrapment over yours.

Officers committing an offence to enforce the law is one of the *key* indicators of entrapment. Creating an opportunity to break the law, is not entrapment. Breaking the law to create the opportunity is. Certainly it isn't a requirement that life or limb be in danger. I don't see how Ridgeway's life was in danger, certainly the police involved were saying quite the opposite; that the import would be risk free.

The police don't have any right *whatsoever* to break the law. Doubly so when they can quite legally obtain information that would enable prosecution.
01:57pm 04/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11834 posts
Finally a Left Wing Superhero rises to fight against evil Right Wing philosophies

02:12pm 04/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
611 posts
Breaking the law is a matter of opinion and upheld at the discretion of the police.

This criminal activity is carried out and under the very noses of the police, the police ignore this behavior, so do they have the right to in effect to break the law by not upholding the law?

In Australia.

It is illegal to walk on the right hand side of a footpath..
02:17pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17786 posts
The point still stands though, the laws are supposed to be a reflection on the will of the community. If it is the communities will that Uber be allowed, perhaps the laws should be changed to allow it.

It means cheaper transport for everyone and better efficiency of moving people around. It allows for a lower barrier of entry for competing services, keeping downward pressure on prices. Each driver should be responsible for paying their taxes and collecting GST from passengers.
As for safety, I'm sure Uber has a rather large database now of their safety records. Does it ACTUALLY make it anymore/less safe to regulate the crap out of the industry?
03:38pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4584 posts

Let's hope the media picks this one up.

http://www.phonytonyabbott.com/blog/tony-abbott-and-his-extravagant-expenses

http://www.phonytonyabbott.com/sites/default/files/uploads/150602_10152443778795615_1355940842_n_smaller.jpg

How can an opposition leader's expenses come so close to the then PM, Gillard?

Removal of the overseas travel makes it alot more interesting:

http://www.phonytonyabbott.com/sites/default/files/uploads/expenses-2011-1-0_thumbs-v2.jpg

Now we know why Abbott tried to slip this one under the rug.


04:21pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17787 posts
Office Administration Costs? $202,000 up from the previous $8,241. What sort of admin is that lol
05:30pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2749 posts
Yeah the immediate thought is what kind of administration is his office doing!? $200k!?! Likewise office facilities at $150k!? Does he work in a spa retreat?

Fair dos Trog, I see your points. I guess the people like Uber as it's giving them easy, high quality and cost-effective travel, so there's not much popular opinion for upholding the existing laws (or pity for the taxi drivers (who seem old, grumpy and unionised)). The mob is fickle!

Uber may well collapse, either from the illegal operations due to avoiding the taxi licenses/regulation, or because they are employing all their staff as contractors and many governments are starting to see this as disguised employment (so illegal and liable for all employment taxes/etc). They are racking up huge costs in fines from both of those avenues, not to mention perhaps being prohibited from operating.

I'm actually a bit surprised they are still being funded so heavily, the VC's must be betting on just paying it as operating costs or the laws changing in their favour in the near future.
06:12pm 04/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11835 posts
WHat really annoys me is Members that hire their Family as Staff.
That should be banned.

06:54pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2752 posts

Uber takes legal action over meaning of taxi in GST fight - http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/uber-tells-federal-court-it-is-not-a-taxi-company-and-should-not-pay-tax-20150804-gir69t.html

A legal case lodged this week by Uber and designed to cement drivers' GST-free status in Australia comes down to eight words - "ride-sourcing drivers do not supply taxi travel".


07:14pm 04/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2257 posts

Uber takes legal action over meaning of taxi in GST fight - http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/uber-tells-federal-court-it-is-not-a-taxi-company-and-should-not-pay-tax-20150804-gir69t.html




Hmm taking the ATO to court....that will turn a profit....
11:09pm 04/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38222 posts
I'm going to take my lecturer's opinion on what constitutes entrapment over yours.
It's an interesting point and not one I considered. I guess though you could argue that by running the Uber app in driver mode you might've already committed the crime?

it should be noted in France they just arrested the Uber execs, which I thought was a pretty funny way of shutting down the service.
The point still stands though, the laws are supposed to be a reflection on the will of the community. If it is the communities will that Uber be allowed, perhaps the laws should be changed to allow it.

It means cheaper transport for everyone and better efficiency of moving people around. It allows for a lower barrier of entry for competing services, keeping downward pressure on prices. Each driver should be responsible for paying their taxes and collecting GST from passengers.
The argument against that is that back in the bad old days of unregulated taxis, they were much less safe. Maybe society has matured so this is less of a concern. Certainly I've been to countries where you are strongly warned not to get in an unlicensed cab.

As you note I think whether or not Uber is safer than a taxi is an interesting point - when I was in BNE I was surprised to see many taxis had an entire thing painted on the side now basically claiming that unlicensed cabs are unsafe (thought I had a photo but don't seem to - maybe someone could get one? They were yellow cabs). Which I thought was a bit of a stretch with no data.
11:57pm 04/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39642 posts
yer, they had billboards in brisbane as well saying if you getting in car without the number plate starting with T you were risking your life.

i guess they forgot about all the cabbies having a fiddle with their passengers who had passed out after a big nite.
06:13am 05/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1760 posts
I guess though you could argue that by running the Uber app in driver mode you might've already committed the crime?


This argument would stack up better if wasn't an offence to order an Uber through the platform. There are several reasons, but from an insurance point of view, the average driver won't be covered from when they accept a job to when they set the passenger down, so the police by ordering (to enforce) are directly contributing to under insured drivers on our roads.

It obviously could be argued that they would have just picked someone else up and be uninsured, the point is that the police generating insurance problems is a pretty bad look. Imagine if someone had an accident and a third party wasn't covered. The point is driven home even more considering that one the stated policy goals of the ride sharing legislation in Victoria is to prevent uninsured drivers. If enforcing the law contributes directly to the undermining of a policy goal, its a pretty bad policing technique, and one of the exact issues the Ridgeway case was concerned with (a large amount of heroin that wasn't in Australia was imported to prevent large amounts of heroin being imported, similarly inducing drivers to drive without insurance to prevent drivers driving without insurance).

Having gone through the driver sign up process for the exam, Uber themselves make it very unclear if driving for them is illegal or not.

In Melbourne they have UberX and Uber Black. Uber Black isn't illegal at all, so the legality gets murky. The point is that UberX drivers for the most part have been spun a story. The Platform owners however have no excuse, last I checked Uber was valued at $17b or something insane. There is no excuse for them to fail at compliance, so they should be rightly investigated by the police. Smashing drivers is petty and not really dealing with the problem which is the facilitation.

As a point of practicality however, they are in negotiations to reform the legislation, so the business sense of paying a lawyer to get someone out of a $1500 fine probably doesn't stack up. It would probably help negotiations to just eat the fines, which it appears they are doing.
07:37am 05/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38224 posts
The Platform owners however have no excuse, last I checked Uber was valued at $17b or something insane.
That valuation is only so high because - so far - it seems that legislators will cave before Uber does and find ways of legitimising their operations. It will rapidly spiral downwards if a few more cities take a Parisian-esque hardline approach to it. Plenty of cities are pushing back though it seems not very hard because the reality of the situation is that most people think taxis suck and are relieved beyond words to have a better option.
08:40am 05/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1761 posts
The valuation point was only to show that they have the resources to be compliant if they wanted to be.

I agree with you when you say they haven't had to bother because public opinion of taxis is so low strict enforcement becomes politically tricky.
08:57am 05/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38225 posts
The valuation point was only to show that they have the resources to be compliant if they wanted to be.
weerrlll, being compliant to the old way of doing things is against everything they're claiming to be - a middleman provider that is "disruptive" and doesn't have to comply with these old crusty regulations.

Further, it is explicitly by NOT being compliant that they can justify their lower prices and so on. They don't want to lose any of their VC war chest paying for things that they're telling the VCs they don't have to pay for which is why they'll make so much money. (Also as an aside, their valuation has very little to do with how much money they actually have - you want to look at their capital raising figures, which are probably on TechCrunch or something; the valuation is just a function of that.)

But yeh, to get back to your point, maybe enforcement is a little more difficult than I think it is, but it's certainly not impossible and as evidenced by the $1m+ fines Qld has already handed out, it's clearly highly lucrative. The Qld government needs to stop pussyd***ing around and make up their minds - step up their game on enforcement, or rejig the legislation (which I think is going to be the long term outcome, and those with existing taxi licenses are basically boned). Either way the current uncertainty is bad for everyone.
09:19am 05/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17789 posts

Plenty of cities are pushing back though it seems not very hard because the reality of the situation is that most people think taxis suck and are relieved beyond words to have a better option.


It does seem to highlight the power of business lobbying. If the people in general are happy about something, then you must think the pressure on law makers must be coming from something other than the general people. The obvious candidate would be the business owners. Why are the pollies listening to a relative few compared to the many.

We have seen examples of Taxi companies in Australia dumping large amounts of money in front of pollies, I'm sure the same applies in other countries too.
09:50am 05/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17790 posts
Valuations also tend to include how much the company could be worth in x years. They have been known to be woefully incorrect in the past (both up and down). As a general rule of thumb, the more hyped a company the more likely it is overvalued.
09:52am 05/08/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16164 posts
The Platform owners however have no excuse, last I checked Uber was valued at $17b or something insane.

51B at the end of July, which is really just getting silly.
10:04am 05/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1762 posts
I'm inclined to think that a large part of their disruption is the cashless transaction, the convenience of the app, as well as the very strong focus on customer service.

Don't forget Uber Black in Victoria, at least, is compliant.

But yes it's undeniable they are branding themselves as larrikin new comers.
11:12am 05/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2258 posts

In other news;

Bronwyn Bishop would retire on a taxpayer-funded salary of $225,000 plus 10 free domestic return flights per year, if she were to take the Prime Minister's hint and quit Parliament at the next election.
http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/bronwyn-bishop-would-retire-on-a-salary-of-dollar225000-a-year-plus-free-flights/ar-BBlplUa?ocid=mailsignout


04:11pm 05/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39644 posts
standard fare for any politician isnt it?

the biggest rort of all.
04:14pm 05/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25274 posts
Bronwyn Bishop would retire on a taxpayer-funded salary of $225,000 plus 10 free domestic return flights per year, if she were to take the Prime Minister's hint and quit Parliament at the next election.
The age of entitlement is over.
04:43pm 05/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17792 posts

The age of entitlement is over.


fpot, we all know he meant the age of entitlement for dole bludgers and the needy is over. The age of Pollies Entitlements is remaining as strong.

Tonez is internally pissed at Biship because now the Pollies have to make a token effort to reduce their travel expenditures for a little while.
04:46pm 05/08/15 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
219 posts
I can understand politicians getting good salaries but what's the deal with their retirements? Why do they get such lucrative deals for life? Is this standard practice in government departments. Work 15 years get 150k/year for life?
04:49pm 05/08/15 Permalink
taggs
6395 posts
Valuations also tend to include how much the company could be worth in x years.


By definition a valuation is the present value of the expected future cash flows, in this case to equity.

So you're sort of confusing the concept there. The valuation does not include how much the company could be worth in the future as that will be determined by the aggregate expectations of future cash flows at that point in time discounted by a discount rate that reflects the risk of those cash flows. Obviously different investors have different views on both the potential cash flows and risk of thise cash flows so the market cap will reflect the aggregate of these.

But it does take into aggregate expectations of future cash flows discounted to today (yet to occur so uncertain) which is what I think you meant.
05:57pm 05/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2754 posts
This is why there's budget deficits and nothing gets done, everyone works 5 hour days and is on phat salaries with no fear of firing, public sector innit.
06:00pm 05/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17793 posts

But it does take into aggregate expectations of future cash flows discounted to today (yet to occur so uncertain) which is what I think you meant.


Yes, thank you for the correction.
06:36pm 05/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25275 posts
08:49pm 05/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4585 posts
Why are people of faith usually the biggest a*******?
09:52pm 05/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2259 posts
I can understand politicians getting good salaries but what's the deal with their retirements? Why do they get such lucrative deals for life? Is this standard practice in government departments. Work 15 years get 150k/year for life?


Because much like their salaries, their entitlements are managed by themselves. The Constitution provides for their payment under section 48 so;

Commonwealth legislation allows for payment of the annual allowance as described in the Constitution. The Remuneration and Allowances Act 1990 as consolidated, sets out the annual allowance (base salary) payable to senators and members of the House of Representatives for the purposes of Section 48 of the Constitution.


To over simplify it, the employees decide what they get paid and what their entitlements are.


You now have permission to riot
11:31pm 05/08/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7252 posts
11:55pm 05/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
615 posts
Australian federal government departments are paying Microsoft $14.4 million to continue to support their use of XP. The Department of Finance recently signed off on two one-year contracts for ongoing "custom support" for Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 to service the departments of Defence, Immigration and Border Protection, and the Australian Taxation Office.


I guess their are no IT people available to point the Federal government in the right direction so here goes "Dear Mr Abbott in the interest of saving the tax payer millions and to bring the government into a more safe and secure world i will simply say Red Hat."

https://vinzzgod.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/linux-trainer.gif
01:53am 06/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9054 posts
Sigh, this again? No.

Linux is not cheaper in a commercial environment. It's been done to death.
09:50am 06/08/15 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6542 posts
I can understand politicians getting good salaries but what's the deal with their retirements? Why do they get such lucrative deals for life? Is this standard practice in government departments. Work 15 years get 150k/year for life?


Hey, if you pass this through for me, when you eventually get voted out for it I'll give you this cushie job for 300k a year!
12:06pm 06/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25276 posts
http://i.imgur.com/SYjU4fx.jpg

Achievements of the Abbott Government To Date

There's literally too much stuff in there to quote.

Adults Back In Charge. New Golden Age.
02:38pm 06/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39647 posts
lolz linux in business (or government)

thats hi-larious!
03:38pm 06/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25277 posts
As someone who doesn't know a single thing about Linux, why is it a bad idea?
03:49pm 06/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
616 posts
I can't see how using Linux is more expensive than paying Microsoft $14 mill for XP, red-hat does cost but if the Government had a single server (man im pullin this out of my arse) one server to rule them all so to speak that would be about $3000 then again normal Linux is free.

I expect that as time goes by when the rest of the world is on W10 the Government will find that they can't communicate with other machines in the same way that W98 , ME struggled with XP.
04:31pm 06/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38226 posts
As someone who doesn't know a single thing about Linux, why is it a bad idea?
The only reason it is bad is because they can't run Office, around which much of the world turns. It's kind of a chicken and egg problem - need more people to switch to open document formats so more people are comfortable switching.

Google Docs has done a lot to help break that up. LibreOffice/OpenOffice are pretty good but aren't yet compatible enough for all purposes.

I think it's too hard to tell if it's more expensive or not; certainly it's easier now than it ever has been. The entire city of Munich, Germany switched over to Linux over a decade ago; they've actually got their own Linux distribution called LiMux. They claim to have saved EUR10m as a result (though MS have published a "study" which claims they've lost money, though there's a lot of criticism about their methodology and assumptions).

Basically avoiding to have to continue to pay windows licensing fees etc and keeping hardware longer will probably save a lot of money. But it has to be a long term project; if you try it for a year it'll probably cost more in the short term.

The cost savings are only part of it though - in the wake of the NSA stuff I expect to see more countries move away from Windows, especially given the hella invasive default Windows 10 settings.
I can't see how using Linux is more expensive than paying Microsoft $14 mill for XP, red-hat does cost but if the Government had a single server (man im pullin this out of my arse) one server to rule them all so to speak that would be about $3000 then again normal Linux is free.
It should be noted that there are very few Linux distributions that are supported for as long as XP. Even the LTS (long term support) releases of Ubuntu are only supported for (iirc) 3 years. Sure, it's open source so you can just "fix it all yourself" right?!

edit: disclaimer: I think our governments should switch to open source as a simple matter of principle, but I also fully support them paying to keep older versions of software running. The cost of large scale enterprise migration to new Windows versions - especially from XP - will be huge. But if you don't break the chain at some point you're vendor-locked forever.
11:59pm 06/08/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10531 posts
Google apps is way better than Office.

Not sure why you think Linux has such short support lifecycles.

Ubuntu LTS is 5 years.
Centos is 10 years.
e.g. Centos 7: full support until Q4 2020, maintenance updates until 30 June 2024

Paid ones have even longer cycles.
SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 12, General support until 31 Oct 2024, extended support until 31 Oct 2027
Redhat is over 11 years
09:19pm 07/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2756 posts
Google Docs is okay for simplistic stuff, but there's no way in hell it's better than the full-featured desktop or the new browser-based MS Office!

MS Office rules, and the new browser-based cloud apps are great.

I feel a lot of the time rather simplistic anti-MS and/or pro opensource sentiment drives these kinds of debates, rather than the right tool for the job.
10:33pm 07/08/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10533 posts
lols...

I have had to write custom apps for both platforms over the last 15 years.
Google apps kicks the living s*** out of Office. Google Apps Script is insane.
It has insanely high levels of integration (except for Presentations ... it's the ugly step child).

Google apps is an entirely different way of thinking.
10:51pm 07/08/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10534 posts
eg. Every year I have to onboard 300+ users.

MS and AD ... You can't write a script in Excel to do that for you. Off to powershell you go. And do battle with all those annoying plugins and security questions. Command lines are definitely the future!...

Google Apps and a Google Domain ... write a script. Winning!
10:56pm 07/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38228 posts
Not sure why you think Linux has such short support lifecycles.
I just meant compared to Windows. Imagine trying to get a modern Linux application to run on a five year old version of Debian that has only had security patches. I don't have mad lunix sysadmin skillz but I know my way around and I often struggle to get new software to run on a VPS that's only a couple years old because it turns into a dependency mess as the developers assume you're running the latest version because why wouldn't you!

Say what you want about Microsoft, they bring new meaning to the words long term support. Almost every application written for any version of Windows you can simply just run and it will work. It is a staggering achievement and viewed in this light the idea of the government spending a few more million dollars on what is already no doubt a multi-million dollar investment makes total sense to me.

Of course this is much less of a problem in the enterprise anyway especially if you're fixing your application platform early on. I don't know if I agree if GDocs is "better" but I certainly think it's more than adequate for the vast vast majority of users.
11:55pm 07/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2757 posts
Fair dos from a sys admin perspective Obes, I'm talking from a advanced user perspective. Google excel can't match MS excel for some of my financial forecasting and similar complex spreadsheets.
12:04am 08/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39654 posts
yer obes, i dont think clients care two hoots for your ease of scripting with a product that wont do what they want. (ie excel)
06:24am 08/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17800 posts

Of course this is much less of a problem in the enterprise


http://i.imgur.com/6CYz7.jpg
07:29am 08/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17801 posts

"If we get to the stage where the rules are such that projects like this can be endlessly frustrated, that's dangerous for our country and it's tragic for the wider world," he said.

"So we've got to get these projects right...but once they are fully complying with high environmental standards, let them go ahead.


Except Tonez, it's not fully complying to the standards. You know what is tragic for the world? Having you as PM...
08:50am 08/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11847 posts
Labor is trying to ban double shots of Alcohol at Clubs/Bars.

Queensland, last drinks and lock-outs are coming.
Labor will push ahead with its plan to tackle alcohol-fuelled violence,
first mooted in January last year, which will see a 1am lockout introduced into pubs and clubs, no shots after midnight and a 3am closing time.

Repeat offenders will find themselves banned from entertainment precincts across the state.

Attorney-General Yvette D'Ath said police would be granted the power to breathalyse disorderly or drunk revellers
"so they have the evidence they need to prosecute licensees, managers and patrons who are breaching the Liquor Act".
"We'll back these laws up with intelligence-led policing and increased liquor licensing inspections as well as education and awareness campaigns," she said.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/lockouts-and-3am-closing-time-served-up-20150326-1m8rwn.html#ixzz3iEEOXu9p

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE ! ! !

last edited by FaceMan at 23:09:35 08/Aug/15
11:08pm 08/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38231 posts
I really don't get why alcohol fuelled violence is such a big deal. If it's that common surely the police can just stand around after 1am in a few hotspots and just start arresting people and throwing them in jail to get them off the streets.

Trying to think how many actual fights I've ever seen while out boozing and pretty sure I could count them on one hand with fingers to spare, but that's probably selection bias based on where I go.
12:28am 09/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25291 posts
ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE ALERT

I worked in pubs as security for years at many different venues. In my opinion alcohol fuelled violence is pretty rampant. The thing is though it usually seems to come from the same people. We'd be forcefully evicting the same people over and over. What really causes it is the disconnect between the security teams, whose objective is to keep the place as safe as possible and assist in RSA, and management who are interested in short term profits and the appearance of looking cool. On one hand we'd be evicting and refusing entry, on the other bartenders (under the instruction of management) would be getting people absolutely blind. To be fair, most of the time, even in cases of when we kicked out their mates, management would have our back. But it was their overall philosophy in how they dealt out the service.

Have you seen the alcohol related death statistics trog? It's pretty compelling.
12:34am 09/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38232 posts
I have not, but I have seen stories like yours above. I just don't get why if it's the same people getting evicted over and over these people are not in jail? Like, assault is assault, right? Why are the police not dragged in immediately? I guess it's not security's job to hold these guys, just to get them out of the establishment.
12:48am 09/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25292 posts
Because it is not a good thing to have police attend your club/pub. In the eyes of management it gives the venue a bad reputation because of the police attention.

The main reason it is the same people getting evicted is because of their friendship with management or money. This is only speculation, but I think management's objective was to have them in, empty their wallets and then rely on the security team to get them out should they need to. We had a very physically good team (not me) and they weren't kicked out literally 100% of the time so I guess it seemed the economically viable option for them.

You're foolish or faced with an extreme situation (witnessed rape,murder) if you hold someone as a security guard. When someone is in your custody they're your responsibility. If they get attacked, or hit by a car, or struck by lightning your entire life is f***ed so you'd be crazy to hold someone for something like assault. It's only very seldom that we'd hold someone for the police. I think it may have only happened once and we stalled him rather then held him really.

In my experience, there are people who simply aren't compatible with being in licensed venues. It's not strictly the alcoholics. Some just sit and be quiet and drink till they're asked to leave, which they do peacefully. There are just some violent, anti-social people who don't know how to party, who don't know how to control themselves. Because of $$$$$ management don't manage them properly and they create a massive problem which has demanded the sort of draconian action we see today.
01:01am 09/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38234 posts
Yeh fair enough; totally take the point about security holding people & agree it's not a good idea or their responsibility. I do think places that regularly have problems should have access to some sort of police liaison that they can call on.

I would imagine that it would be a short-term hit to their reputation though - once it becomes clear that it's not a place you can go without actually getting arrested for being a f***wit maybe it'd bounce back. Compared to the reputation that they'd get if they became known as being a place where people punch on regularly and THEN someone gets killed in a brawl, that would be much worse.

I certainly saw a few people get carted out of the RE into police cars and it didn't seem to impact the RE's business!
01:29am 09/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
617 posts
In an effort to curb alcohol fueled violence in the Aboriginal (dry communities ) T Abbott has banned Vegemite ! next fresh fruit will be banned as well as corn and barley.

T Abbott has got to get some credit for trying to help i suppose..
10:28am 09/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11848 posts
pre-loading is a part of the problem
Meth too
there is a bit of an underground culture of Steroid abuse
Some ppl just seem to like the attention of fighting and tend to lose a lot and so travel with a lot of their friends.

I had this mate years ago and he'd get blind and start giving s*** to badass dudes, he'd say to me. "ur gonna back me up right ?"
Id say "no man you start something ur on your own"
and he really sucked at fighting and obviously he was too drunk to even be competitive in a fight.

I feel sorry for the sportsmen, they get so many ppl trying to start s*** with them and of course they attract the girls and inevitable some guy suffers and ego meltdown + too drunk.



11:43am 09/08/15 Permalink
Deviouz
Melbourne, Victoria
444 posts
02:40pm 09/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39656 posts
^^like^^
02:52pm 09/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38239 posts
haahha that is epic
05:45am 10/08/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7254 posts
Once again we have an upcoming election with no one to vote for.

douche and turd, part deux

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/08/the-abbottalypse-simmers/

“In February he asked for time,” as he pleaded for his job in the party room, says one Liberal MP. “He asked many of us for six months.” It’s been six months, a deadline that expired this week.

“The reality is that nothing’s changed and nothing’s improved. He asked some people to give him to the end of the year. Well, we aren’t quite there yet.

“This government is doing some good things. But there isn’t anyone who thinks this is a good government.” The Abbott government is approaching an existential moment. The existential question: What is the point of the Abbott government?

…The reform phobia “boils down to Tony and Joe having no capacity to project a vision or an economic narrative,” the minister despairs. “They are useless advocates. Tony’s just a wrecker.”

…”The government has become a preservation society to get Abbott from week to week” is the acid summary of one Coalition MP.

…As one of his ministers put it this week:

“Some people say we can’t win an election with him. That’s not true,” because while it’s hard to name any convincing purpose for the Abbott government it’s just as hard to name one for Bill Shorten’s opposition.

“But what’s the point of winning another election with Abbott?”


last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 09:00:28 10/Aug/15
08:58am 10/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1767 posts
“They are useless advocates. Tony’s just a wrecker.”


I'd like to know who that was. I'm willing to bet it's Turnbull, but I wouldn't bet my house.

Channeling Keating y0.

11:30am 10/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17816 posts
I will give Tonez a nod for following through, at least with a token effort, with entitlement reforms for pollies. Lets see if it becomes one of those reviews that cost lots to perform and then the advice gets totally ignored.
07:24am 11/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2260 posts
I will give Tonez a nod for following through, at least with a token effort, with entitlement reforms for pollies. Lets see if it becomes one of those reviews that cost lots to perform and then the advice gets totally ignored.


What like the last entitlements review from 5 years ago that was ignored?

You already know that a "review" is simply a way of putting off what must be done. After 6 months Abbott will call an election and this review will be brushed aside.
08:42am 11/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9058 posts
Google Docs is okay for simplistic stuff, but there's no way in hell it's better than the full-featured desktop or the new browser-based MS Office!


Google Docs lacks the level of revision history functionality to be useful for anything serious. Style templates also need a lot of work.
09:53am 11/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17819 posts

You already know that a "review" is simply a way of putting off what must be done. After 6 months Abbott will call an election and this review will be brushed aside.


The process has to be started and you can't fault a person for starting the process. In this case its what Tony does after the review, that's when we can release the hounds.
09:55am 11/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2261 posts


The process has to be started and you can't fault a person for starting the process. In this case its what Tony does after the review, that's when we can release the hounds.


Except that there already has been a review none of the proposals have been accepted because it would mean they lose most of their "entitlements".
02:51pm 11/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11852 posts
The Union line has to be broken up at Port of Brisbane.

The reason for the picket line ?
The workers were sacked via SMS
So what ?

The solution is to invite the workers into a demountable and tell them they are sacked ???

As long as the Workers are paid their entitlements under the Award what does the Union have to do with it ???

Workers stay = unafordable Business closes = they lose their jobs

Sounds like a job for IMPOTENT RAGE
06:14pm 11/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17822 posts
Because it was a bastard way of doing it. In glad they are protesting, I don't think our society needs people being laid off work in such a manner.
Do it properly, face to face , or don't do it at all .
06:58pm 11/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11853 posts
I dunno, its not exactly great news, is it ?
Apparently they knew something was coming, there was some kind of review.

Its funny how text is seen as aggressive.
Sometimes humour is lost in text.
People seem to get offended much more by a written opinion than they do a verbal opinion... SMS Message in this case.

How would you feel if your Boss SMS'd you that you'd been promoted to a BOSS ?

..........ATTN: You are now the fascist bully boy Boss.......
10:43pm 11/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17825 posts
It was a text message during the very early hours of the morning.

Personally I think it's pretty poor form to use a text message for any major event, unless it was willingly agreed to prior by all parties involved. Good or Bad.

The warfies would have much less public support if the business fired them in a more honourable way, face to face. IMO, it's in the best interests of the company to lay people off in the most honourable way possible. It at least makes the people remaining more supportive of the situation and retain some loyalty to the business and work better.

I dunno about you, if I dislike the place where I work and their business practices I tend to have less energy about it and cant work my best. Then I move on.
07:41am 12/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39670 posts
coalition still not interested in same sex marriage or living in current times, still happy to live in the 1950s.
08:25am 12/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22843 posts
Personally I think it's pretty poor form to use a text message for any major event


unless it's a bushfire or flood. or breaking up. then its ok.
08:30am 12/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17826 posts

unless it's a bushfire or flood. or breaking up. then its ok.


lol, what pissant breaks up over text.
Yeah I'll accept emergency responses as a reason to txt.
09:25am 12/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4592 posts


I'd like to know who that was. I'm willing to bet it's Turnbull, but I wouldn't bet my house.

Channeling Keating y0.




Ah Whitlam, Keating, Hawke. The men who made this country great.

Imagine how s*** it would be if the LNP continued to push on it's USA esque policies of mass privatization, without opposition.
The IPA list is basically what the Abbott government wants. Turning us into the USA, a s***** place where the poor and middle class everyday, more of the wealth trickles to the top elite.
Down on your luck? too bad.. you didn't work hard enough. Onto the streets for you.
The reality is, no matter how hard you work, you can still be stuck in a rut. Becoming rich is generally more luck based than "hard work"
01:56pm 12/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1787 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-11/climate-change-what-top-15-emitters-are-promising/6686548

Australia punching well above it's weight in polluting. At least we are good at some things.
02:12pm 12/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25296 posts
unless it's a bushfire or flood. or breaking up. then its ok.
Bushfire and flood is broadcasting an emergency situation to as many people as possible efficiently as possible so it's okay. Breaking up via SMS is just as sucky as firing someone over SMS.

I know toll already addressed this but holy f*** you just said another really dumb thing infi.
02:34pm 12/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22844 posts
if there's no work then there's no work, i honestly don't know what people expect. to be kept on while there is no work? that's called sticking one's head in the sand.

these guys would get texts when they have to work extra shifts so they can get texts when there is no work.

it's not f*****g dumb, it's BUSINESS. would they rather turn up and just see the gates shut. these guys would be pissed off if the company held a wake with free f***en keg.
02:47pm 12/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25297 posts
haha, now you're doubling down on the dumb like you always do. Gonna triple down?
02:59pm 12/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17827 posts

if there's no work then there's no work, i honestly don't know what people expect


That's pretty out of touch. People expect to be treated with respect.

Do you honestly think that texting someone at 1:00am in the morning that they no longer have work and their belongings, still at the workplace, will be couriered to them shows respect? I think it shows the opposite.

Yeah, A business has to do it's thing and hiring/firing of people it part of that process.
Do you want to work at a business where they don't respect you as an employee? I don't, solid workers who respect themselves wouldn't. So you risk your business getting left with low self-respect staff. That's not a solid foundation for a business.

These guys are using what bit of power they have to tell these employers that what they did was not acceptable. Perhaps they will think of doing it in a manner that shows respect to the people they are about to fire next time.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:04:09 12/Aug/15
03:02pm 12/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4593 posts
So typical of the right. When it comes to business, decency goes out the window it would seem.
03:14pm 12/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2762 posts
China to spend trillions on green tech

Not still hedging our economic bets on coal exports to China are we?
12:43am 13/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17828 posts
Keating knew it, the government must know it. The only conclusion I can bring is that the current government is being corrupt and taking money too keep coal going, OR they are simply incompetent and think that supporting and expanding the coal industry whilst shunning renewables is the way forward for Australia. Either way, it's a s*** government.
07:15am 13/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2262 posts
Ah Whitlam, Keating, Hawke. The men who made this country great.


No politician made this country great. The people did that.

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11863471_564660857006706_4039290679531297427_n.jpg?oh=7c36ef24bc31d7c8d7af3f805ad91d78&oe=563A8476
09:01am 13/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1768 posts
mean while, the Liberal party takes an unpopular political position on Wednesday,

On Thursday ISIS must be bombed and have h4x0r3d all our base.

Your newsspeak is showing.

Unbelievably clumsy news cycle management and the news media just gobbles the s*** up. My kingdom for a competent professional in any aspect of Australian politics.
10:57am 13/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1788 posts

mean while, the Liberal party takes an unpopular political position on Wednesday,

On Thursday ISIS must be bombed and have h4x0r3d all our base.

Your newsspeak is showing.

Unbelievably clumsy news cycle management and the news media just gobbles the s*** up. My kingdom for a competent professional in any aspect of Australian politics.


Which ones can we check off? I count about 5. You could probably throw in number 2 and 12 as a result of if they took the actions pete mentioned.
http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/12/same-sex-marriage-tony-abbott-wears-liberals-anger-over-free-vote-failure
“Unlike members oppose I don’t run a Stalinist party,” Abbott said, attempting to criticise the Labor party for expelling backbench dissidents.


mmmmm right.........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia

Under Lenin's leadership, openly gay people were allowed to serve in government. In 1933, the Soviet government, under the leadership of Joseph Stalin, recriminalised homosexual activity with punishments of up to five years' hard labor.

11:04am 13/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25298 posts
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
Our wonderful offshore concentration camps accommodate this one quite nicely.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
We have this one covered with a rampant misogynist naming himself Minister for Women, one woman in the cabinet and the LNP bravely saving the family institution from the perils of same-sex marriage.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.
http://i.imgur.com/RdN26nK.jpg
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Fossil fuels anyone?

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
https://newmatilda.com/2015/06/02/art-being-george-brandis-how-destroy-sector-without-even-really-trying. Amongst other things like disinformation campaigns against the work climate scientists are performing.
03:25pm 13/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25299 posts
Ready for some Australian journalism?

WHEN SHARKS ARE EATING PEOPLE, IT'S TIME TO CULL

HUMAN cullers. Leg maulers. Life destroyers. Great white sharks. This year, the NSW north coast has had six gut-wrenching attacks, one which saw much-loved local Tadashi Nakahara lose his life at just 41 following an attack at Shelly Beach.

Former boxer Craig Ison, 51, an affable larrikin, would have died if his fighting instincts didn’t kick in at Evans Head two weeks ago, and Matt Lee, 32, is fighting infection in the Gold Coast University Hospital after both his legs were mauled in an attack at Lighthouse Beach, Ballina last month.

These surfers were doing nothing more than enjoying the beauty and tranquillity of the ocean. Why should they be punished for that? These men did not enter the water with spears, nor did they paddle out with the intention of harming marine life. They wanted to enjoy the peacefulness of the ocean but instead they were given a life sentence.

What if you were at the beach with your son or daughter, your partner or your mother, and one of these sharks thought your loved one looked a tasty morsel and took them down in a murderous attack? Would that be OK? How would you feel then?

Would you still be keen to cuddle up to a great white at night?

These surfers were doing nothing more than enjoying the beauty and tranquillity of the ocean. Why should they be punished for that?

At least five great whites — some more than 5m long — have made their home along the north coast and are routinely stalking the surf break.

These predators have been spotted within 50m of the shore, lurking, ready to say hello and take you as an afternoon snack, if you so happen to be in the water.

The ocean is our domain and sharks have no place destroying lives and livelihoods; these predators are lurking out there ready to cull humans and we as a community must find a permanent solution.

Tourism is slowing. The people are not coming. Surfers are not surfing. If this continues into summer, the seaside towns of Lennox Head and Evans Head, even Ballina, will be no more.

We won’t have to worry about sharks because there will be no one living on the coast. The shark will have won.

We are not all the size, nor do we have the adeptness of the revered Mick Fanning, who could fight off his attacker in South Africa.

We don’t all have a lifetime of boxing prowess like Craig Ison. Most of us couldn’t fight our way out of a paper bag. It’s time to act.

Great whites should no longer be a protective species; sharks do not treat humans as a protected species.

We must legalise the killing of the sharks that kill us.
04:37pm 13/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38244 posts
Keating knew it, the government must know it. The only conclusion I can bring is that the current government is being corrupt and taking money too keep coal going, OR they are simply incompetent and think that supporting and expanding the coal industry whilst shunning renewables is the way forward for Australia. Either way, it's a s*** government.
Never attribute to malice, etc. I mean, except for Bishop, and all the others that have been abusing the spirit of the entitlements.
Ready for some Australian journalism?
that is just clickbait s***, written entirely to be outrageous so people will share. What piece of s*** wrote that and what pieces of s*** published it.
12:26am 14/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
619 posts
20 rank-and-file Liberal party members have torn up their membership tickets in the last 24 hours it seems T Abbott has gone the full retard and thrown any resemblance to the Liberal party core values out the window.

And this is why, just about every statement in the We believe document has been abused by T Abbott and the members of the liberal party that still believe in core values have begun the great Liberal party exodus.

We Believe:(The Liberal party).

In the inalienable rights and freedoms of all peoples
(Unless you want same sex marraiage).



https://www.liberal.org.au/our-beliefs
01:12am 14/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17830 posts
Look at David Leyonhjelm, he is pretty much the definition of what Liberals should be. He has some crappy policies and some I agree with, they all genuinely come down to his true Liberal political position.
Tonez and friends aren't even close to that, I'm not sure how infi and many other staunch Liberal voteres thought he was when they voted for him (tonez).
06:25am 14/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39676 posts
saw last nite that the dock workers have been ordered back to work by aussie courts.

i can totally dig there is no work and they need to downsize, happens all the time.

how hard would it have been to do it propperly and not via text?
07:21am 14/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38245 posts
Look at David Leyonhjelm, he is pretty much the definition of what Liberals should be. He has some crappy policies and some I agree with, they all genuinely come down to his true Liberal political position.
Except for his crazy anti-windfarm weirdness and his willingness to take money from tobacco companies and then push their agenda, I agree that one or two of the things he has said in the past have not been terrible.
07:35am 14/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39677 posts
i really struggle to understand how australia can be so anti windfarm :*(
07:47am 14/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1769 posts
Lest I be accused of conspiracy theories and in defense of some Australian journalism, Laura Tingle at the fin review writes:

It has been a noisy, out-of-control week in Canberra: the Liberal Party has imploded over same-sex marriage, the government has announced a farcical climate change policy, the credibility of its trade union royal commission has been shredded. But in the hallowed space of the cabinet room, and even in the Parliament, it's been much quieter.

Ministers reflect on the painfully thin agenda before the cabinet: thin in subject matter as well as substantive submissions. Parliament has not been overwhelmed by major legislation to debate.

A meeting of the National Security Committee of the cabinet has, however, recently asked for a list of national-security-related things that could be announced weekly between now and the election.


This government has been the most naked abuser of low political strategy in living memory. I still think it was worth getting rid of Rudd, but the list of blunders and gross incompetence is simply unforgivable.

Greg Hunt whining that the Qld coal mine was shut down because of a legal technicality is a prime example. The technicality was he had to read the environmental submissions. Considering the mine was going to run for 30 years, JUST READING ENVIRONMENTAL SUBMISSIONS, WHEN YOU'RE THE F*****G ENVIRONMENT MINISTER isn't exactly a huge ask. To say then that its environmentalism "run mad" demonstrates the attitude of a petulant child who has been caught out.
08:03am 14/08/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2042 posts
^ spot on Pete.
08:28am 14/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9060 posts
Look, until some kind of law is passed that requires people wishing to serve office to pass a screening exam that prevents them having some kind of psychological disorder, and belief in religion is placed on that list, we're going to end up with crap like this.

The reality is stupid people will stick by their own.

It just s**** me to tears that religion is so common - and, as a result, so is all this hatred, bigotry and vilification of people who want to be a certain way - and yet we can't see it for what it is, a serious mental illness that poses a very real danger to others.
09:42am 14/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17831 posts

a serious mental illness that poses a very real danger to others.


My belief that a God doesn't exist is different than yours that does, therefor you have a mental illness. Lolz.

10:13am 14/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1789 posts
i really struggle to understand how australia can be so anti windfarm :*(


I struggle to understand how a sunburnt country has hydro from melting snow as it's biggest renewable source.
11:02am 14/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17832 posts

I struggle to understand how a sunburnt country has hydro from melting snow as it's biggest renewable source.


A country with ample amounts of Silica, skilled workers and scientific education ... We should have been the worlds capital for Solar Panel Technology..
01:18pm 14/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25300 posts
An Australian doctor has been brought to tears by the abuse and trauma he witnessed in Nauru's immigration detention centre.

Paediatrician Dr David Isaacs is one of several doctors, workers and guards turned whistleblowers exposing what they say is a culture of cover up, rape, self harm and abuse on Nauru, in defiance of laws that could land them in prison.

Our Government is abusing children in our name

"I saw a six-year-old girl who tried to hang herself with a fence tie and had marks around her neck. I've never seen a child self-harm of that age before," Dr Isaacs told ABC's 7.30.

'These are people, ordinary people and we're treating them with with incredible cruelty' : Paediatrician Dr David Isaacs spoke publicly of the trauma suffered by Nauru detainees on 7.30.

"After five days, I went home and had nightmares. I didn't expect that.

"I didn't expect to be so, um, traumatised by these people's trauma. These are people, ordinary people and we're treating them with, um - sorry, we're treating them with incredible cruelty," he said, clearly shaken and upset.

"It's child abuse. Putting children in detention is child abuse. So, our Government is abusing children in our name," he said.

Asylum seekers on their first day in the compound in Nauru.

Alanna Myc***, a nurse who worked with Dr Isaacs on Nauru recounted the confronting ordeal of a mother in detention.

"We'd seen that she'd been raped there. She was offered more time in the showers for sexual favours," she said.

7.30 also aired hidden camera footage of detention centre guards joking about shooting a detainee.

Detention centre operators Transfield and Wilson Security have told the Senate inquiry investigating allegations of abuse that staff are trained to report abuse, including through a special hotline.

But a whistleblower told the program that he was never told about the hotline.

The Senate inquiry is expected to demand children be removed from detention as part of its key recommendations, according to 7.30.

The inquiry is also expected to recommend mandatory reporting of sexual abuse, and for the Immigration Department and Federal Police to conduct a full audit of all allegations.
No doubt some kind of left-wing conspiracy to discredit Operation Sovereign Borders.
02:49pm 14/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2263 posts

The whole Trade Union witch hunt by the obviously compromised Trade Union Royal Commissioner Dyson Heydon who stated;

It is fundamental to the administration of justice that the judge be neutral. It is for this reason that the appearance of departure from neutrality is a ground of disqualification because the rule is concerned with the appearance of bias, and not the actuality, it is the perception of the hypothetical observer that provides the yardstick.


his words right here: http://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/judgment-summaries/2011/hca2-2011-02-09.pdf

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMRqNNvU8AAYU8n.jpg

Indeed he should be hoisted on his own petard
04:03pm 14/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9061 posts
My belief that a God doesn't exist is different than yours that does, therefor you have a mental illness. Lolz.


It's utterly ridiculous what we allow to be accepted under the guise of 'tolerance'.

We have a very specific standard that's accepted and used when it comes to evidence in trials. But ask a religious person to provide any amount of proof whatsoever to support their claims that their particular god exists, and virtually all of it would be dismissed in any legal sense.

Yet we need to be seen as "tolerant of others beliefs" and understanding.

F*** that, your brain doesn't function properly. It's that simple.
04:08pm 14/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17835 posts

But ask a religious person to provide any amount of proof whatsoever to support their claims that their particular god exists, and virtually all of it would be dismissed in any legal sense.


Legalities and logic have very little impact in matters of spiritual belief. Religion is a method that many, many, many (way more than who don't I suspect) use to help guide themselves on personal matters.

Just because YOU don't believe doesn't make it any more or less true. It's as simple as that.

I never said I was religious buddy..


F*** that, your brain doesn't function properly. It's that simple.


Actually it could be argued that a person who has no religious/spiritual component has a defective brain. But you know, you must be right, because you are superior after all.

I will grant you that basing new laws on matters of religion shouldn't be done, however most of our Western laws are based on religious views so it would be kind of hard to separate it all completely.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 16:22:14 14/Aug/15
04:19pm 14/08/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7256 posts
07:29pm 14/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17836 posts
You have proof of that? Probably not.
07:51pm 14/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4596 posts
we're told many lies as we grow up. like the economic credentials of the liberals.
08:10pm 14/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
620 posts
lol Raven speaking of evidence in trials in this context could be if you sink and drown you're innocent if you float then you're a witch or even dare i mention it the Spanish inquisition.

Asking a religious person to justify their beliefs is the same as getting a straight answer from a politician.
09:01pm 14/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2764 posts
Humans are totes a blank sheet at birth, they can become anything.

The oatmeal said it best: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
04:16pm 15/08/15 Permalink
Jim
UK
13662 posts
the position of a strict atheist is arguably questionable in the context of our current body of knowledge. agnosticism is probably more sensible, at least for now :)
07:56pm 15/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2765 posts
Yeah I'm definitely in the agnostic camp now. Anything's possible.. but the organised religions we currently know and love.. no way jose! They are literally just evil corporations.
08:19pm 15/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17837 posts
Oatmeal was going so well, until he said 'keep it to yourself'. So he is allowed to not keep his opinion about things to himself, but other people have to? Yeah ok.
08:51pm 15/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11858 posts

Its always weird when sports champs, often from the 3rd World thank God for their victories.

God may not exist but you cant deny, God motivates people to do extraordinary things. Id rather be challenging an Atheist than a Religious opponent.
11:22pm 15/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
621 posts
FaceMan you would make a great politician, talk about having a bob each way i think you may have pulled off a Bushism.
12:43am 17/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9063 posts
Agnosticism is just hedging your bets despite all available evidence. I also could win the lottery... but right now the odds are pretty stacked against me, and everyone else who will play it.
09:57am 17/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25303 posts
I also could win the lottery... but right now the odds are pretty stacked against me, and everyone else who will play it.
It's still worthwhile buying a ticket though.
02:31pm 17/08/15 Permalink
Jim
UK
13663 posts
Agnosticism is just hedging your bets despite all available evidence. I also could win the lottery... but right now the odds are pretty stacked against me, and everyone else who will play it.

You're not describing agnosticism - you're maybe describing the way some people incorrectly use the claim of being agnostic

The key is belief vs knowledge
02:33pm 17/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17843 posts
Religion requires faith and belief in that faith. Not proof. If there was proof there would not be any faith. This is why you cannot use logic to disprove religion and why religious people won't listen to you trying to apply logic to it.
They don't care, as they have faith.

Most religious people are fine upstanding citizens, a few are nutjobs.
02:37pm 17/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25304 posts
Dyson Heydon, the royal commissioner under mounting pressure to quit over his links to the Liberal Party, was on a panel that awarded a young Tony Abbott a life-changing scholarship to Oxford University.

Mr Heydon was part of the seven-member Rhodes Trust selection committee in NSW that in 1980 handed the prestigious Rhodes scholarship to the future prime minister, then a 23 year-old student politician at Sydney University.
According to documents seen by Fairfax Media at the NSW state archives on Monday, the selection committee was chaired by former NSW Governor, Sir Roden Cutler and "Professor JD Heydon" was a member.

The emergence of the Rhodes scholarship connection sets the personal relationship between Mr Abbott and his hand-picked judge to lead the trade union royal commission back decades.
Mr Abbott is under pressure to sack the commissioner after it was revealed he had been lined up to speak at a Liberal fundraiser before abruptly cancelling his appearance last week.

The Labor Party claims the royal commission is now fatally compromised and the union movement is considering legal action amid claims of "political bias" towards the government by Mr Heydon.
Fairfax Media submitted detailed questions about his involvement on the Rhodes selection committee in 1980 and whether he personally backed Mr Abbott, but a spokesman for the royal commissioner did not answer any of them, saying only that Mr Heydon had "no comment".
Mr Abbott was asked about his scholarship selection on Monday but said he could not recall whether Mr Heydon was on the committee. "That's a long time ago and the idea that I gather is being peddled that somehow he and I cooked up a conspiracy 34 years ago against the Labor Party is absurd," he said.

In his book Battlelines, Mr Abbott wrote: "As much, I'm sure, through my role in student politics as through academic or sporting prowess, I was chosen as a NSW Rhodes Scholar at the end of 1980."
It is possible that Mr Abbott had a personal relationship with Mr Heydon who became the youngest ever dean of the university's law school in 1978, at age 34. Mr Abbott studied law.
According to a source familiar with the selection process going back decades, there are "multiple interviews" with the committee before a Rhodes scholar is chosen.
Mr Heydon was the Rhodes scholar for NSW in 1964 when he was 21.

He was appointed to the High Court by the Howard government in 2003.
According to Battlelines, Mr Abbott joined the Sydney University Liberal Club in 1977 before becoming president of the Sydney University Representative Council.
His Rhodes selection, three years after Malcolm Turnbull had been bestowed the honour in 1977-78, was reported in the Sydney Morning Herald on November 22, 1980.
"A leading Sydney University student politician who wants to see student bodies scrapped has been named Rhodes Scholar for 1981. Mr Abbott, 23, a law student, has taken a strong line against such bodies using money on 'extreme causes'," the paper reported.

In his 2012 essay Political Animal, journalist David Marr, recounts how Mr Abbott "impressed a panel of worthies chaired by the governor of NSW, Sir Roden Cutler".

"For Anglophiles and rugby players, the Rho­des was died-and-gone-to-heaven time. Winners must be scholars fond of sport who display "moral force of character and instincts to lead". The award to Abbott came as a surprise, particularly to those who had seen him up close on the SRC. One jibe at the time was, 'second-grade footballer, third-rate academic and fourth-class politician.'," Marr wrote.

According to the list, the 1980 panel included Michael Birt, a former vice-chancellor of the University of NSW, war veteran Harold "Jack" D***inson, who was appointed chair the NSW Public Service Board in 1971. Academic Alice Erh-Soon Tay was also a member.
03:15pm 17/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1770 posts
That report reads a bit tin foil hatty.

Heydon sits on a panel, but doesn't have the sole discretion, in which abbott gets selected as a rhodes scholar, (they don't provide how he voted).

35 years later, the 'mates' conspire to bring down bill shorten?

That sounds like its clutching at straws to me.
03:47pm 17/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25305 posts
I don't think so at all. As the article says, it sets a personal relationship between the two. Surely after everything we've seen it's now been established that the LNP are capable of literally anything when it comes to dishonesty and corruption and the subsequent concealment.

Bringing down Bill Shorten you'd assume would be Abbott's #1 priority. His only hope is that the Labor dump him so he can use that to win the next election. Why wouldn't he use every underhanded trick in the book to achieve that goal? Also, remember that Heydon himself said this -

It is fundamental to the administration of justice that the judge be neutral. It is for this reason that the appearance of departure from neutrality is a ground of disqualification because the rule is concerned with the appearance of bias, and not the actuality, it is the perception of the hypothetical observer that provides the yardstick.
04:14pm 17/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17844 posts
Look to be fair, the article points more to a 'boys-club' mentality that very much exists.

Private schools like Marist College are prestigious not because they offer superior education (research shows they are about the same as state schools) but because they have their graduates as part of that boys club. It opens up connections that would otherwise be closed off.

I'd wager that the situation with Abbott and Heydon was more coincidental than anything. That being said, it should have been disclosed as a potential conflict of interest if it wasn't.

04:52pm 17/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1791 posts
Surely you'd remember if you were on a panel that gave a rhodes scholarship to the PM of australia?

It's so murky.
07:55pm 17/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2766 posts
Yeah you get a lot of that in the UK, they all went to Eaton.

I'd say its more coincidences and same networks a lot of the time, rather then intentional conspiracy. Though they know each other and probably want to help each out (who doesn't want to help their friends and acquaintances?) which is why impartiality is important.
08:39pm 17/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1771 posts
Remember yes, but best buddies out to get the union movement? I doubt it.

I'll concede it looks bad, but I don't know how bad it actually is. I went to UQ and never met the dean of my school. I've met the dean of my current school on three occasions.

The dean of Sydney law school sitting on the panel which decides if a Sydney law student goes to oxford, is hardly surprising.

So I don't think it really does set a "personal" relationship as I'd understand the term. Acquaintances might be a better word, which is still not great for apprehended bias, but in terms of actual bias I think there is still work to be done.

Finally I would point out that to the extent the commission is a stitch up (and I've no doubt that calling for it in the first place was deeply politically motivated, after all this has to be seen against the background of NSW Libs reducing the powers of ICAC, and the feds refusing to set even a defanged ICAC up. I don't think Tone cares one whit about corruption.), I'd say it is tones track record which is undermining the perception of independence.
08:27am 18/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22847 posts
That report reads a bit tin foil hatty.

Heydon sits on a panel, but doesn't have the sole discretion, in which abbott gets selected as a rhodes scholar, (they don't provide how he voted).

35 years later, the 'mates' conspire to bring down bill shorten?

That sounds like its clutching at straws to me.


to me it sound like the ultimate long con. it's a conspiracy that goes all the way to the top. i recommend buying the movie rights.
09:31am 18/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2264 posts


to me it sound like the ultimate long con. it's a conspiracy that goes all the way to the top. i recommend buying the movie rights.


Well you would but the fact that Heydon stated "It is for this reason that the appearance of departure from neutrality is a ground of disqualification because the rule is concerned with the appearance of bias, and not the actuality, it is the perception of the hypothetical observer that provides the yardstick." that he has no choice but to hand back his letters patent as Royal Commissioner. The fact that the Royal Commission is a LNP witch hunt only adds to it. If there is a suspicion of illegality being conducted or condoned by unions then it is the police who should investigate and act.
10:20am 18/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25306 posts


to me it sound like the ultimate long con. it's a conspiracy that goes all the way to the top. i recommend buying the movie rights.
So are you just resorting to stumbling in with the occasional apologist post now or can we look forward to seeing some more full time dumb in the near future?
06:43pm 18/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
12616 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
Send Private Message
06:47pm 18/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8847 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
Send Private Message
08:21pm 18/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1792 posts

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/aug/18/coalition-to-remove-green-groups-right-to-challenge-after-carmichael-setback

What a bunch of c****.

I really hope this gets squashed in the senate, surely sanity will prevail.
08:54am 19/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17846 posts
Those amendments were put in place for a reason, the very reason being that Common Law was inadequate to deal with environmental issues.
This government absolutely knows that, that's why they want to repeal the amendments.
09:42am 19/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
623 posts
Prime Minister Tony Abbott has said government frontbenchers who go rogue and vote for a same sex marriage bill would be sacked.
http://static.gamesradar.com/images/totalfilm/n/new-red-band-trailer-for-the-dictator-102361-470-75.jpg

Another excellent day in the life of our great leader,i wonder if T Abbott overcompensates in his behavior because of his small stature?
11:38am 19/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1793 posts

Basic income has been bandied about in this thread from time to time, the Finns are seriously considering it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33977636?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


07:50am 21/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38251 posts

GST to be applied to international purchases above $1000: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-21/gst-to-be-applied-to-all-products-services-sold-by-vendors/6715582?section=business

"What it effectively means is that we're going to have taxation officials travel around the world and visiting these companies and asking them to register for GST purposes."
this is dumb as f***


12:16am 22/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22852 posts
f*****g retarded yet all premiers agreed. more bureaucracy
08:01am 22/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17854 posts
Dear International Businesses,

Please pay GST on your big items, or else you can't sell into Aus.

Thanks Government of Australia (The Real Tonez).

........

Dear Government of Australia,

We decline to pay foreign taxes, we will stop shipping out products to Australia. Lets see how your population enjoys that. Looking forward to speaking to the new Government next election.

- International Business


....


Dear Our Government,

Thank you for adding GST to international purchases as we discussed. Now I can continue to rip off our fellow Australia's with high prices without fear of new business models interfering with my trick.
I will further donate money.

- Harvey Norman.



last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:20:41 22/Aug/15
08:17am 22/08/15 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1695 posts
He said further work was needed to estimate how much tax would be raised, but said revenue would outweigh enforcement costs and compliance would rise over time.


... he doesn't know how much money will be raised but knows it will be more than how much it costs to enforce it.

Didn't one of the other governments here already check and find it would cost a lot more than it would actually bring in?
12:57pm 22/08/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38253 posts
f*****g retarded yet all premiers agreed. more bureaucracy
My favourite part is how I assume this decision was made because we had that period of the really strong Aussie dollar, which motivated a lot more people to shop overseas. Now thanks to the unceasing assault on the value of the dollar by the Reserve Bank, the dollar sucks and buying overseas is no longer an attractive proposition.
11:42pm 22/08/15 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
18744 posts
this is dumb as f***


oh ffs these politicians are retarded.

Didn't one of the other governments here already check and find it would cost a lot more than it would actually bring in?


right here.

In its analysis the Productivity Commission estimated that ‘with current parcel volumes and processing costs, removal of the LVT would generate revenue of around $600 million at a cost of well over $2 billion borne by businesses consumers and government’


12:28am 23/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
628 posts
Mr Hockey says the government is "committed to reducing income taxes"(Must repair economy).
When? he says he will take Personal income tax cuts to the next election.

These are probably not the same income tax cuts that he promised prior to the 2013 election and then got confused when he raised income tax and petrol tax.
12:52am 24/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17866 posts
Look Zaraq, running an economy is tough business. Sometimes when you have to go forwards, you need to go backwards. I think Mr Hockey, our greatest treasure, is doing a fine job. What you should be afraid of is terrorists, lets talk about that.

- Tony Abbott.

07:02am 24/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
629 posts
Why? you thinking of taxing terrorists
07:58am 24/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17868 posts
Haha, no Zaraq, nobody is saying that. What we are saying, trying to say, is that Australia needs to have a dynamic economy and to make that happen we need to make sure we keep Australia's boarders, your boarders, strong. We have to make sure that we are safe and secure so that we can prosper economically.

- Tony Abbott


Also I read this on ABC comments kind of funny:


From economic emergency to essential generosity.


Yup, this Government.

08:13am 24/08/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7260 posts
The thing that I like about Tonez and Slop is that they are totally predictable, no surprises really. Look after big business, boomers, top income earners, keep everyone hooked on fear and f*** the rest.
08:47am 24/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17869 posts
It was predicted long ago that they would turn towards hope for this election, ie giving out stuff to people. So predictable.

10:18am 24/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
631 posts
China has a dynamic economy as you're new treasurer and in the interests of all Australians i say we adopt the Chinese principles and pay every one $5.00 a day.

Look forward to that after the next election.
10:36am 24/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25314 posts
“We all know back in the 60s Aboriginal people didn’t have much money, they didn’t always receive the respect they deserve but they were in the real economy and they did have pride.

Then of course the welfare economy came in and that has done untold damage to a couple of generations to Aboriginal people. All the serious leaders of Indigenous Australia know that sit-down money has been poison, all of them know that chronic welfare dependency can lead to very serious personal dysfunction."
08:05pm 24/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17873 posts
So we as a nation, need to move forward. We need to stop giving hand outs and end this welfare expectation. With the money saved we will introduce new legislation that will push our economy forward, we will spend Australia's tax dollars, your tax dollars, creating jobs. Jobs that you can all work in, even the women.

We propose to give cash incentives to businesses with proven track records of bringing this nation forward. Industries like Coal, Iron, free to air TV and Paper News Papers. By stimulating the building of more mines and more good television we will create more jobs and that is good for everyone.

So please, this coming election, vote with pride. Vote Liberal.

Liberals: Ending the welfare nation, one mine at a time.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 22:08:30 24/Aug/15
10:06pm 24/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2772 posts
The general political retardation in Aus is getting mind boggling. :(
06:39pm 25/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11868 posts
Gayby Baby ?
11:31am 26/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
634 posts
Joe Hockey is supporting another bash at an Australian republic . Joe Hockey already smoke cigars clearly the front runner for president of Australia "Well may we say god save the president for nothing will save the Queen"
05:14pm 26/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25319 posts
lol 'Border Force' officers are performing brown people checks in Melbourne today. I feel much safer already!
12:01pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1794 posts
the federal government's new paramilitary unit


Is this really warranted? Do we really need jack boots on the ground in our cities? Are they going to be carrying assault rifles like in other countries?

How many warning signs of facism do we need?
12:25pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25320 posts
yeah nice niave comment mate. guess youve never heard of a thing called a death cult before? there here mate and there on the streets. our white boys in blue are just keeping us safe you on team australia or what?
12:45pm 28/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22857 posts
They are enforcing jaywalking and bike helmet laws.
12:51pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25321 posts
12:57pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17881 posts
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11952027_10207439883499404_7512415374988323529_n.jpg?oh=f469db410c9679046060fd80926a4979&oe=563A6096


This government is easily in the top 3 worst governments in Australian History.

Divide the nation more you f***tards.
01:24pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17882 posts
Apparently 60%+ of Australia's rich made their fortunes through political connections, compared to Americas 1%.

We are about as corrupt as Columbia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-26/frijters-foster-battlers-and-plutocrats/6725118

These pollies will do anything to keep their snouts dirty. This is why Australia will struggle economically in the future.
01:29pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1795 posts
They are enforcing jaywalking and bike helmet laws.


F***, they are totally targetting me.
01:30pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25322 posts
02:14pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25323 posts
The operation has been cancelled.

What an absolute s****torm of a f*** up.
02:56pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4603 posts
This government... just wow.
03:00pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17883 posts
There was probably no legal requirement for a person to actually stop and show papers without an arrest or something similar to that.
03:43pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25324 posts
heh, the LDP.
04:33pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4604 posts
LDP, haha. Australian republicans?
Free market for all!

http://i.imgur.com/yjjWweZ.jpg
04:44pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1796 posts
I completely agree with everything the LDP had to say on this topic.

LDP are not completely retarded, most of their social policy is awesome.
Even if you don't agree with their economic policies they have a clear set of policies and principles.

Unlike the LNP who just do the bidding of Murdoch's hate rags and the IPA.
05:00pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Xeper
Cairns, Queensland
15 posts
ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE ALERT

I worked in pubs as security for years at many different venues. In my opinion alcohol fuelled violence is pretty rampant. The thing is though it usually seems to come from the same people. We'd be forcefully evicting the same people over and over. What really causes it is the disconnect between the security teams, whose objective is to keep the place as safe as possible and assist in RSA, and management who are interested in short term profits and the appearance of looking cool. On one hand we'd be evicting and refusing entry, on the other bartenders (under the instruction of management) would be getting people absolutely blind. To be fair, most of the time, even in cases of when we kicked out their mates, management would have our back. But it was their overall philosophy in how they dealt out the service.

Have you seen the alcohol related death statistics trog? It's pretty compelling.


The entire industry is corrupt and run by uneducated unskilled clueless muppets who are either part of criminal enterprises or just plain deads****. The entire club scene is a joke in this country and an embarrassment to the civilized world. It has no culture or substance just petty s*** full of useless c**** who cant handle their drink and the governments of our country will regulate this s*** until it is so tight it will no longer be feasible to even consider investing in this business of getting a RSA license paid with using drug money gonna open a club now then fail after feeding over priced piss to morons and manchilds.
05:03pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4605 posts
The IPA, LNP & Murdoch are all about free market though, as is the LDP
05:04pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1797 posts

The IPA, LNP & Murdoch are all about free market though, as is the LDP


We're not talking about the free market though.

Also, LNP, Murdoch are not about the free market.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/08/strayan-billionaires-drive-banana-republic/
05:17pm 28/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1773 posts
whats with names, its like they are playing from the bush jr playbook or something

operation sovereign borders

operation fortitude

looking forward to operation enduring free sovereign boners
05:29pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17884 posts
Hopefully this is the tipping point that wakes Australian's up to the s*** this government has been getting away with.


The IPA, LNP & Murdoch are all about free market though, as is the LDP


Actually Murdoch, Rineheart, and friends are all about Market regulation. I have come to the conclusion that market regulation is a tool used by the rich to get richer with unfair advantages. This is due to the inevitable corruption of politics with our current system.

Market regulation would be an excellent thing, if governments were unable to be corrupted and twist regulation in favour of very rich lobby interests.

It is my strong belief that ALL government actions, documents, goings on, everything, is to be easily accessible open knowledge. Nothing is to be allowed to be hidden away. An Open Source Government if you will.
The only exception is during military operations at war time.
It's the only way we can have a relatively corrupt free government.

Only then, should we allow regulation to be a thing.

07:54pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39708 posts
pretty sure cyclists who dont wear helmets should be treated as worst of the worst criminals for their drain on the health system
08:07pm 28/08/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11870 posts
WTF were the Border Force supposed to be doing ?
Demanding to see the ID of people who didnt look Australian ?

What ?
08:18pm 28/08/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22859 posts
pretty sure cyclists who dont wear helmets should be treated as worst of the worst criminals for their drain on the health system


i'd love to see some stats on that given europe thinks you're wrong.

big business thrives on regulation and barriers to entry. it is a way of slowing down small nimble competitors who want to break in. employment regulation is a prime example. the giant unions cosy up with big construction and mining employers (to name some select industries) and use their cartel behaviour to shut out small players.

the more laws, the higher compliance costs, and this can then only be funded by conglomerates that can divide the cost across much larger turnover. but for some reason all these silly laws make aussies sleep well at night. it must be an inferiority complex.
08:19pm 28/08/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2268 posts
08:52pm 28/08/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2776 posts
Not even shocked to see this border police bulls***, so typical of the government, but so depressing though! This government is literally driving Australia into a quasi fascist/nationalist state, not to mention on a path of economic ruin.
11:03pm 28/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25325 posts
I have to ask a question. At one point I was naive. I thought Labor was the social government and the Liberals were the fiscally responsible government. From what I can see, Labor are from from socially progressive, and the LNP are far from fiscally responsible. Has it always been this way? Were the LNP always like this? At the moment the LNP are almost comic book evil. Everything they do seems to hurt someone or arguably everyone. Labor are also a f*****g joke and playing the role of LNP lite.

I never became politically active until I saw what was happening to asylum seekers. Has that issue alone thrown politics into turmoil or has the bulls*** always run this thick?
02:01am 29/08/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
636 posts
fpot have you forgotten "The children overboard" and "Reds under the beds" "The yellow peril" and now its "Operation Fortitude" manufactured distractions and the absolute master of this technique was John Howard whenever his prospects began to falter an catastrophe would magically appear just in time to take the heat away from himself .

The media seem to be in cahoots with this little arrangement eg John Howard says " dole bludgers " and the commercial TV unable to find real dole bludger's got some payed actors.

T Abbott is trying to be a J Howard clone and failing in a catastrophic fashion if he was not the leader of Australia you could find his antics humorous instead i feel embarrassed watching other world leaders shaking their heads in disbelief.
05:20am 29/08/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4404 posts
like the protestors, I'm not sure what operation fortitude even is, but I'm against it
12:42pm 30/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25326 posts
Those stupid protestors.
02:39pm 30/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25327 posts
Australia's $55 million operation to resettle hundreds of refugees from the tiny Pacific island of Nauru to Cambodia appears to have collapsed in a diplomatic embarrassment for the Abbott Government.

A senior Cambodian official says the impoverished nation has no plans to receive any more than four refugees who arrived in Phnom Penh in June, and indicated it did not want any.

"We don't have any plans to import more refugees from Nauru to Cambodia," Interior Ministry spokesman Khieu Sopheak told the Cambodia Daily.

Refugees at Kuala Lumpur airport on their way to Cambodia from Nauru.
Refugees at Kuala Lumpur airport on their way to Cambodia from Nauru. Photo: Kevin Ponniah
"I think the less we receive the better," he said.

Under a controversial agreement with Australia the Cambodian regime has the right to decide how many refugees are resettled from Nauru.

The regime will pocket an additional $40 million in development aid from Australian taxpayers, no matter how many arrive in the country.

Additional operational costs, including providing health and education training for the first arrivals, has already topped a staggering $15 million, a Senate committee in Canberra has been told.

The Abbott government has a policy not to comment publicly on the Cambodian operation that has been condemned by Cambodian opposition parties, human rights and refugee advocate groups.

The first group of an Iranian couple, Iranian man and Rohingya man from Myanmar have been living in an Australian-funded luxury villa in a Phnom Penh suburb since they were on June 4 whisked through Phnom Penh airport to one of the world's poorest nations, where about 18 percent of the country's 15 million people survive on less than $1.22 a day.

Mr Khieu Sopheak told the Cambodia Daily the four were "enjoying their life" in Cambodia.

But they have not spoken publicly since their arrival, shielded by officials from the International Organisation for Migration which received an undisclosed amount of money from Australia for taking care of the group.

The four are receiving benefits that millions of Cambodians can only dream about, including their own "case manager", accommodation, training, help finding work, language tuition and health insurance.

Some had their applications for refugee status fast-tracked when they agreed to take a one-way flight to Cambodia.

However, refugee advocates say attempts to convince hundreds more refugees on Nauru to take-up the offer in June, July and August failed to obtain any more applicants.

A shipping container on the island was set-up as a "Cambodian Information Hub" and refugees and asylum seekers were told they should take-up the offer because they would not be allowed to live in Australia.

Australia's foreign minister Julie Bishop said in Malaysia earlier in August that Australia expected more refugees to resettle in Cambodia under the agreement.

Since Australia's then Immigration Minister Scott Morrison signed the deal with Cambodia in a champagne-sipping ceremony in September last year the Abbott government has moved closer to the regime of strongman prime minister Hun Sen, despite his crackdown on opposition figures, dissidents and non-government-organisations in the country.

Cambodia's foreign minister Hor Namhong is scheduled to be welcomed in Canberra in September ahead of a scheduled visit by Mr Hun Sen in December.

For more than 30 years Mr Hun Sen, a former commander of the murderous Khmer Rouge in the 1970s, has used persecution, violence, repression and corruption to remain in power, human rights groups say.

Mr Hun Sen and about 20 of his closest associates have amassed billions of dollars in personal wealth, prompting Cambodia to be ranked near the bottom of Transparency International's index of 175 nations.

Billions of dollars in foreign development has rarely trickled down poor Cambodians, observers in the country say.

Groups including the Cambodian Centre for Human Rights and Cambodian League for Promotion of Defence and Human Rights have told the United Nations they are "deeply concerned" about systematic human rights violations in Cambodia as the regime in Phnom Penh has restricted freedom of expression, peaceful assembly and association and limited the political opposition's ability to meaningful engage in policy making.

"There has been an increase in the use of lethal and other excessive force against peaceful protests and occasionally violent social unrest, as well as instances of judicial harassment and unwarranted legal attacks against human rights defenders, community activists, trade unionist and political opposition members and their supporters," the groups told the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council on August 20.

The UN refugee agency has refused to play any role in the resettlement scheme, saying it was "deeply concerned" at the precedent set by Cambodia's agreement with Australia.
04:58pm 30/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17886 posts
Just take him and Morrsion to court already.
06:23pm 30/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25329 posts
Get a load of this pile of apologist drivel from convicted racist and champion of the people Andrew Bolt.

MY God, how can Prime Minister Tony Abbott survive against this crazed army of professional hysterics shrieking over fake “scandals”?

Take the latest example — this lunatic outrage on Friday over an operation in Melbourne by the Australian Border Force.

Note from the start: this operation against illegal immigrants never took place. And was never going to take place as the media described.

Yet there was Labor leader Bill Shorten warning that Abbott planned to make us “live in a police state”, with his ABF allegedly “acting like a drag net on the streets”, demanding people produce their papers.

Then there was independent MP Andrew Wilkie, claiming “Joseph Stalin would be proud of Tony Abbott”.

Buffoon MP Clive Palmer warned, “we saw what Gestapo powers did in Germany in 1930s”, so the ABF should be scrapped before it “destroys Australia’s way of life”.

The Greens shouted “racist”, of course, suggesting our border authority could be “stopping people with certain skin colours”.

And sickest of all, former independent MP Tony Windsor claimed the ABF was part of a plot by a government secretly hoping to provoke Muslims into murdering fellow Australians.

“I’ve got no doubt that some of these people in Abbott’s Government hope that something goes wrong domestically, so that they can fool the Muslims into doing something so that they can say that we’re the only ones that can protect you,” ranted Windsor, unchallenged by his ABC interviewer.

“Well, I think that’s an extraordinary agenda to go to an election with,” Windsor said.

Well, it would be extraordinary were it true, but the only extraordinary thing is that the ABC reports these bat-crazy hallucinations about government terrorism plots, gulags and swastikas without question.

But nothing now is too mad for such people if it helps destroy the AbbottAbbottAbbott monster.

And so Fairfax writers frothed over the “police-state theatrics” of “stormtroopers” and “paramilitary types” wanting to “randomly intercept citizens in Melbourne for visa checks” in their “uniformed insanity”.

Excuse me, but are paranoiacs now running the ABC? Are fantasists editing the Fairfax newspapers?

Are liars leading Labor?

Oops, scratch that last question. I know the answer.

No, the ABF was never going to have a “drag net on the streets”, stopping strangers to demand their papers. Who carries visa papers, anyway?

It, instead, planned to tag along with a Victoria Police operation against anti-social behaviour at public transport hubs in Melbourne. The deal was if police happened across, say, some visa overstayer or foreign student working illegally as a cabbie, they would ask the ADF to take over.

And there’s plenty of such checking to do, with an estimated 60,000 people here without a valid visa, and more working when they shouldn’t.

Isn’t this cracking down on illegal workers exactly what Labor says it wants, now it’s running its slimy scare campaign about Chinese workers stealing your job?


But the trouble is the ABF regional commander for Victoria and Tasmania this time approved a gung-ho press release, warning his officers would speak with “any individual we cross paths with”.

Bang. The usual few dozen socialist protesters, who loaf around Melbourne when most taxpayers are working, rushed to Flinders St station to holler abuse, call Abbott a Nazi and — in their usual jackboot way — block innocent motorists.

Social media activists took up the bogus scandal, and the ABC even promoted this Social Alternative rabble as the authentic voice of middle Melbourne, defending our liberties rather than just sabotaging a standard policing operation, which was promptly cancelled.

Fact is, as the red-faced ABF admitted, the press release was “poorly worded” and there was never going to be a papers-please dragnet.

The bemused Prime Minister, who’d actually known nothing of this operation he allegedly masterminded to goad Muslims into killing, added: “We will never be in the business of stopping people randomly in the street to check on their visa details.

“That’s just not something that would ever happen in this country.”


MP Andrew Wilkie said “Joseph Stalin would be proud of Tony Abbott”.
Yet so many politicians and journalists of the Left seem hungry to believe we indeed have a Kirribilli Hitler, presiding over stormtroopers.

Take Peter Hartcher, political correspondent of Fairfax’s Sydney Morning Herald, who in May falsely claimed Abbott had a possible “homophobic moment” when he allegedly snubbed the gay partner of our ambassador to France. (In fact, far from snubbing him, Abbott took him to dinner.)

Hartcher was at it again on Friday, falsely claiming “the Prime Minister, without consulting his Cabinet, decided to launch Friday’s ham-fisted assault on Australians’ freedom of movement” — until his paper issued a grovelling correction admitting Abbott had known nothing about this “assault” Hartcher claimed he’d personally ordered.

What is it with these people?

Is Australia so boringly decent they must invent monsters to slay? Is that why they invent a global warming apocalypse that refuses to come, “stolen generations” no one can properly name, and an Aboriginal genocide that never happened?

Is that why so many Abbott “scandals” — like the latest few — are pure inventions?

Just a week ago, Fairfax journalists turned the Liberal candidate for next month’s by-election in Canning, former SAS captain Andrew Hastie, into a suspected war criminal despite him having been nowhere near the scene of a (non) crime over which he was completely cleared.

Then journalists such as Ray Martin claimed Abbott probably tricked the US into asking Australia to fight in Syria, not because Islamic State is a genuine threat but because more war was “important for the Canning by-election”.

Yet this confected fury actually flatters Abbott.

Labor and the media wouldn’t need to invent these scandals if the Financial Review’s Laura Tingle were right — Abbott really did lead a team of such “sheer stupidity” and “craven” decision making that “the Coalition’s reputation for good government (could) become likened in history to that of Whitlam’s”.

These haters wouldn’t need to invent fake scandals if Abbott had real scandals of the kind the Rudd and Gillard governments routinely produced, and which his critics have wiped from their memory.

But that’s the Left’s problem, isn’t it? Abbott has not actually let in 50,000 undocumented illegal immigrants as Labor did.

He has not wasted untold billions on trash such as free insulation, an insanely expensive broadband scheme, a dud Grocery Watch stunt or overpriced school halls.

Nor has he killed overnight a major export such as cattle to Indonesia.

He has not hit Australia with a damaging carbon tax or a mining tax that raised almost no money.

He has not protected corrupt union officials as Labor does to this shameful day.

And he sure hasn’t tried to intimidate media critics by proposing a state-appointed supercop to police all private media outlets and even blogs.

Now that was a true mark of the totalitarian, but where were Abbott’s critics when Labor tried that stunt?

Where were the Shortens and the Greens?

Yes, forgiving in themselves the sinister traits they only invent in Abbott.
ughhhhhhh. So dumb it's painful.
07:41am 31/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17887 posts
I think that article needs more "quotation marks"

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/dr evil laser-thumb.jpg
07:56am 31/08/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9071 posts
pretty sure cyclists who dont wear helmets should be treated as worst of the worst criminals for their drain on the health system

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97682/WRI/fillion.gif
09:34am 31/08/15 Permalink
Vash
4606 posts
how on earth does Bolt have his own show?
10:49am 31/08/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1774 posts
Is Australia so boringly decent they must invent monsters to slay? Is that why they invent a global warming apocalypse that refuses to come, “stolen generations” no one can properly name, and an Aboriginal genocide that never happened?


What the hell does that sentence have to do with anything. I think he needs to zip up, it's rude to leave your prejudice hanging out like that.

also
He has not wasted untold billions on trash such as free insulation, an insanely expensive broadband scheme, a dud Grocery Watch stunt or overpriced school halls.
woops maybe they have.
11:23am 31/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17888 posts
Glad this current government has stopped the waste by practically giving $50 million to a highly corrupt Cambodian government to take in a mighty 4 refugees.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/31/cambodia-has-no-plans-to-take-more-nauru-refugees-in-55m-australia-deal?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I guess corruption runs in the family haha
12:27pm 31/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25330 posts
So apparently Transfield have been retained as security providers at our concentration camps and they're also taking over the welfare role Save the Children were providing.

I guess that's one way to stop the child rape allegations.
04:21pm 31/08/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25331 posts
how on earth does Bolt have his own show?
Because providing confirmation bias to people with terrible opinions is a very lucrative business.

The whole reason Bolt and Murdoch media exist is so dumb racists can see their views put up in lights. To them it legitimises their racism. I doubt anyone remembers, but infi once let slip that he believes the middle-eastern culture is savage, and that the savage treatment they received at Gitmo was justified for that reason. He spent literally years lying about it. Denying it ever happened when it was all online in black and white. Some racists out there are proud of it and will be completely open. Most are cowardly little men and women who instead instead speak in dog whistles and innuendo (except for when they occasionally f*** up). This is the target audience of Bolt et al. It is the only reason he exists in a public sense.

Imagine how else they could have spent that $50 million. They could have used it to upgrade their concentration camps to something that isn't a living hell. Instead they put it in the hands of a violent and corrupt regime.
07:12pm 31/08/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17889 posts

"I think regardless of what Tony Abbott does, Fairfax will say it's bad," he told the ABC's AM program.

...

Mr Dutton accused some journalists of over-stepping their responsibilities, adding Fairfax was "being helped by the ABC".



Ha hahahahaha have a cry you don't care when Murdoc runs his pro-Liberal / Anti-Labor s***.
08:17am 01/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1798 posts
They don't complain when news corpse photo shops labor in nazi uniform, yet when the liberals impose fascist policies and the media rightfully reports on it they're calling out bias.

What
10:23am 01/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25332 posts
'AUSTRALIA NEEDS TONY' front page is still the winner.
10:57am 01/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11872 posts
Labor better vote for the China FTA.
That would be an Election winner for Abbott.

Surely SlushFund Shorten cant stuff that up ?

10:27pm 01/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
640 posts
I am not an accountant so this clock is pretty baffling,i wonder if this enormous debt is going to bite us on the arse?

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/clocks
07:05am 02/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22861 posts
only if interest rates go up
09:47am 02/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25333 posts
The Australian Border Force removed about 30 detainees from the Maribyrnong Detention Centre in a raid early on Friday that a witness described as "brutal and intimidating".

A refugee advocate speculated the raid was undertaken to make way for any visa defaulters nabbed in the Melbourne CBD in the infamously cancelled Operation Fortitude.

But that claim was emphatically denied by an Immigration Department spokesman who said the operation was a routine search for unauthorised and illicit contraband.

"The Department can confirm a number of detainees were recently transferred within the detention network, as part of a pre-planned move," said the spokesman.

"The searches conducted at the MIDC on Friday were not linked to the transfers. For operational and security reasons we cannot comment further."

According to one source, a team of up to 70 officers from the ABF, its dog squad and Serco Emergency Response Team swooped on the centre at 2.30am.

They are believed to have woken the detainees, handcuffed them and put them on buses bound for chartered flights.

The men, some of whom are asylum seekers, were then taken to an undisclosed location.

Fairfax Media understands they were en route to Yongah Hill Detention Centre, north-east of Perth, and Christmas Island Detention Centre.

The ABF officers and Serco ERT team then continued to search each of the remaining 90 detainees –including 10 women – and their rooms until 5.30pm on Friday.

The source, who did not want to be named, said there were "distressing scenes" at the centre, with the men "screaming" while being forcibly removed.

The detainees were "terrified" of being taken to Christmas Island as they would be cut off from their friends and family, he said.

"There is an atmosphere of fear and intimidation at the centre now," he said.

"One of the detainees said 'we are treated like dogs'."

Asylum Seeker Resource Centre detention rights advocate Pamela Curr said the families and friends of the detainees had been unable to find out where the men were taken.
"We have got people contacting us now, asking us to find their loved ones who have been moved effectively to a secret prison," Ms Curr said.

"We have gone from secret on-board matters to secret in-detention centre matters where people are being moved from detention centre to detention centre in the middle of the night and their family members are not allowed to know where they are going."

She believed the government removed the detainees in a bid to "make room" ahead of the cancelled Operation Fortitude, she said.

"This was the day they announced the visa inspection program in Melbourne," Ms Curr said. "What they would have been doing is clearing out the Maribyrnong Detention Centre with hopes that they could pick up visa anomalies and whack them into detention.

"We don't know that [for sure] but it is the most logical explanation."

However, a spokesman for the Department of Immigration and Border Protection said the raid was conducted to ensure the safety of the centre and "stamp out criminal behaviour".

Similar operations would continue on an ongoing basis, he said.

"The key message is we have a zero tolerance to illegal behaviour in our centres," the spokesman said.

"A variety of contraband items were seized during the operation, including drug paraphernalia and a homemade tattoo gun."

When asked if any criminal charges had been laid, the spokesman said "detainees found in possession of illegal contraband may face criminal charges".

The raid followed "success of Operation Safe Centres in March earlier this year" and was conducted to ensure the "safety and good order of our Immigration Detention facilities centres, while identifying detainees who are doing the wrong thing", he said.

However, a source told Fairfax Media the officers found only "two glass smoking pipes", "Iphones" and "trolleys upon trolleys of extra linen" and extra mattresses that the detainees had amassed during their stay at the centre.

"No drugs were found," he said.

"In a search lasting all day, almost 80 officers searching 90 detainees and all they find is a tattoo gun and a couple of glass bongs?"

"It was an overkill."
12:43pm 02/09/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2777 posts
Looks like the US Fed is probably going to raise interest rates! Will be interesting.

Aus still way off the line, the world is moving on without us:

That’s not a future of strong economic growth. That is not a future where freedom and human rights are on the move. Any leader willing to take a gamble on a future like that, any
so-called leader who does not take this issue seriously or treats it like a joke, is not fit to lead. On this issue, of all issues, there is such a thing as being too late. That moment is almost upon us.

-
06:56pm 02/09/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38255 posts
only if interest rates go up
ahah what are the chances of that happening EVER though!?!? basically nothing.
11:30pm 02/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
642 posts
Tony Abbott explains:
ISIS is worse than Hitler because Hitler hid what he was doing away from the public where as ISIS do their killing in plane sight,poor stupid Tony has fallen foul of Godwin's law
02:10pm 03/09/15 Permalink
IncrEdible_vEgetable
Brisbane, Queensland
2650 posts
Is Australia so boringly decent they must invent monsters to slay? Is that why they invent a global warming apocalypse that refuses to come, “stolen generations” no one can properly name, and an Aboriginal genocide that never happened?


What a c***.

02:30pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9077 posts
Thanks to the housing crisis, people investing in massive housing loans/mortgages, and the governments unwillingness to ever do anything that would stop them getting re-elected when it comes to what's right, we can have reasonable confidence they'll do everything they can to keep interest rates low.

While what's best for the country is 16% interest rates to correct the problem, that'd just result in so many mortgage defaults and bankruptcies it's not funny :(
02:31pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17894 posts

While what's best for the country is 16% interest rates to correct the problem


Which means high savings interest rates too 12-14%. Which would make our Aussie dollar the carry trade of choice for the entire world. Which would make it shoot way above parity with USD, which would destroy our tourism, education and exports sector.

We could buy some nice TV's though.. if you still have a job.
05:40pm 03/09/15 Permalink
taggs
6399 posts
The government has very little influence on interest rates and a 16% cash rate would be f*****g retarded.

It's funny when you Dunning-Kruger the s*** out of a topic Raven because you always get called out for how stupid your comment was but never think about changing your behavior or even acknowledge that you have no idea what you're on about.
05:48pm 03/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1782 posts
Oh be nice taggs, the core of the point is there. This government does have an interest in keeping interest rates low, not withstanding their (in)ability to change it, and even a 4-6% cash rate would probably have an effect on the default rate.

I will admit I have only a loose grasp of the concepts.
05:52pm 03/09/15 Permalink
taggs
6400 posts
a 4-6% cash rate would probably have an effect on the default rate.


It probably would, all else being equal.

And nah, sorry but he didn't say higher interest rates would be best for the country (a very defensible claim though still there's still strong arguments you could make against it particularly in the short term).

He made a very specific claim that was just all kinds of stupid and he should be, and was, called out for it. I don't tell people what bike they should ride because I don't have a clue and he shouldn't tell people what interest rates should be because he doesn't have a clue.
06:08pm 03/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1784 posts
fair enough.
06:16pm 03/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22865 posts
The likelihood of high interest rates in this environment is zero. Interest rates rise when inflation rises. The FED has been pumping monopoly money into America for seven years with virtually nil inflation. This shows how weak the US has been. Similar strategies in EU and Japan have also not resulted in inflation.

Government spending will only ever have a small impact on inflation. If private borrowers are nervous then the market will contract regardless of how cheap money is.

In Australia we are now also seeing a legacy of high existing consumer/private debt so banks are also nervous about over lending. If rates go from 4% to 6% that's a 50% increase in servicing costs which would send many private borrowers to the wall.

12% would destroy Australia's economy. Obliterate it.
07:56pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2044 posts
I've always liked the number 6.023 x 10^26. Dunno why, just have.
08:52pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9078 posts
Nah, a 16% rate would be great for those of us with cash assets and in, say, the education sector. We pretty much get a free ride through recessions :)

Would have been better to have not already bought a home as then house prices would be low too - hell, practically almost "buy outright"

But yes, 16% isn't really great for everything else - just makes things awesome for people who don't own homes/mortgages who are in the market to buy. High interest rates = low servicability of loans = low demand = housing prices crash, so if you've been saving, scooooore.
09:03pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1799 posts

http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-gst-increase-would-be-efficient-way-to-raise-tax-20150903-gjeg6m.html

Soooo, GST hike?

Isn't that a great big tax on everything? Instead of polluters paying it or miners, now everyone pays more. Yayyyy

Liberals are f*****g hopeless.
10:01pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2045 posts
Liberals are f*****g hopeless.
This current lot are the new benchmark.
10:47pm 03/09/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10541 posts
To tar all liberals with the same brush would be unfair.

Julia Bishop has proven to be effective and can communicate. I'd vote for her.
Malcolm is swoon worthy. I'd vote for him.

The current 2 leaders (both sides) are under-performing accidents that are being protected by a "we aren't the Kevin/Julia/Kevin" problem... I'd vote for my pet cat before either of Shorten/Abbott ... lets keep the hamster on the wheel!

Abbott is one of the worst PM's ever. In any country on the planet. Yup East Africa is doing better.

Temperamental, ineffectual, incapable of international politics ... How the hell did he get a Rhodes scholarship (that's right the guy he is using investigation ... conflict of what ? ... oh it's ok he doesn't understand email ...)

I am waiting for eat da poo poo
11:36pm 03/09/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38258 posts
Which means high savings interest rates too 12-14%. Which would make our Aussie dollar the carry trade of choice for the entire world. Which would make it shoot way above parity with USD, which would destroy our tourism, education and exports sector.
Well, our economy didn't collapse when the Australian dollar was super high a few years back, right? We had stuff that people wanted at the time.

On the tourism topic - after being in the US for a while and talking to a s***load of Americans about Australia, I don't think the value of the dollar impacts their decisions too much. I mean I'm sure it has some effect but many Americans seem to have never even left the country - or if they have, it's to places like Mexico or the Bahamas or the Caribbean where the US dollar is accepted anyway - so the concept that their money is not all that matters is totally foreign to them. The biggest common obstacle for Americans to come to Australia seems to be that it is just so so so far away.

The FED has been pumping monopoly money into America for seven years with virtually nil inflation. This shows how weak the US has been. Similar strategies in EU and Japan have also not resulted in inflation.
My uncle (who has been a magic finance dude his whole life) was talking about this recently and how he can't see how the US dollar is going to stay as high as it is.

I've been watching "the economys" much more closely while I've been overseas and have been fascinated by its movements and spasms. But it seems making predictions is a suckers game because there's just too many variables.
12:26am 04/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
645 posts
Obes: Malcolm is swoon worthy.
???????? my gf finds Hugh Jackman swoonable not old man Turnbull perhaps yer some sort of ugly old sea hag or yer peering at life through perpetual beer goggles.

Of course the other option is yer gay and just fancy ye olden day guy's.
05:54am 04/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25335 posts
07:51am 04/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
646 posts

New York Times:
re T Abbott.

His policies have been inhumane, of dubious legality
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/03/opinion/australias-brutal-treatment-of-migrants.html?_r=1


09:34am 04/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9081 posts
And what are going to do about it?

Honestly.

Yeah, that's right. F*** all.

Not too far off 50% of still going to vote for him at the next election. You think he's the problem? Look around. Even once he is out of power, noone's going to take him to task over it. We jump up and down but ultimately we'll just elect someone only slightly worse.
10:20am 04/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17897 posts

Nah, a 16% rate would be great for those of us with cash assets and in, say, the education sector.


Education, particularly Tertiary rely on a great deal of international students, they bring in about 2.5x the amount a domestic student does, when the $ is high the international numbers drop off dramatically, which really affects operating budgets of university schools.
Also, universities tend to have a fair bit of investment in real estate, so it would really hurt them.


Well, our economy didn't collapse when the Australian dollar was super high a few years back, right?


That was about parity with USD, and our interest rates where only a few %'s higher, to have them 10+% higher would bring in heaps of cash pushing our $ way up. UQ had to some pretty heavy budgeting during that high $ period, and the pressure has started to come off now with the $ returning to normal levels. We have way more to spend now.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 11:11:41 04/Sep/15
11:09am 04/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9172 posts
MY God, how can Prime Minister Tony Abbott survive against this crazed army of professional hysterics shrieking over fake “scandals”?


I love how Bolt is criticizing the protesters for not being aware of a reversal which didn't exist yet until they caused it. F*****g impossible nut.

As if they shouldn't have taken the official Border Force press release at its word, and yet should have taken the subsequent reactionary official Border Force press release which didn't exist yet at its word. Literally impossible causality-defying standards to meet.

The literally said that they would be talking to everybody they came across in the streets, and that people committing visa fraud were going to be found out, on a night where other departments were doing arrests of people with outstanding warrants and fare evasions. It's only later when they reversed that and said that they would now not be talking to everybody they came across, literally reversed their position, and almost certainly only in response to those critics.

There's just no way for the coalition and its pet projects to be wrong for him, even if he has to factor in time travel and double standards in believing press releases. It's like when they use some fact from climate scientists in an effort to disprove climate scientists. Of course he threw some of that in there, along with a lot of other conspiracy bulls***.

Then the particular irony of him lamenting how protesters don't have real jobs when his whole life has been writing protest blogs and columns and acting as a self-assigned expert on everything, without having ever actually had a real job.
02:18pm 04/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1800 posts
And what are going to do about it?

Honestly.

Yeah, that's right. F*** all.

Not too far off 50% of still going to vote for him at the next election. You think he's the problem? Look around. Even once he is out of power, noone's going to take him to task over it. We jump up and down but ultimately we'll just elect someone only slightly worse.


Shorten is terrible, the fact that Albo wasn't put in charge of labor after the people elected him speaks volumes on the party.

Albo is the people's champion, Plibersek might get a leadership run down the line also. Unfortunately for the time being they both have to tow the line with regards to horrible refugee policies because if labor don't look cohesive going into the next election, they'll look like a joke again.

Can Richard DiNatale offer a credible alternative for moderate left leaning voters? I suspect with Scott Ludlam's dreamy hair backing him he can. They managed to pickup safe National party seats in the NSW election.

Another couple of minor parties and independents in the house of reps would be great for democracy. It will be hilarious if Rupert's idea for a snap election means even more horse trading with the minor parties.
05:12pm 04/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11875 posts
Shorten wont defeat Abbott.
That attack ads from the Coalition will bury him.

Albo is a credible alternative but Labor has got to stand for something.
Its got to get the Union thugs out and it has to be an alternative to the Greens.
its risks having Labor voters say "whats the difference between Labor and the Greens ? Ill vote Greens"

There only difference really is Stop The Boats.
A Labor supporter not happy about that policy might vote Greens.

06:56pm 04/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22868 posts
On the contrary, I think Abbott is toast. Either will get rolled before election or lose it.

A lot of his behaviour has turned middle Australia off. Plus sticking by Hockey is not a good look.
08:08pm 04/09/15 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1697 posts
On the contrary, I think Abbott is toast. Either will get rolled before election or lose it.

A lot of his behaviour has turned middle Australia off. Plus sticking by Hockey is not a good look.


Not just sticking by Hockey but also Bronwyn Bishop when she was not passing the sniff test for her helicopter ride and other things she did.
11:18pm 04/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1801 posts

Julia Bishop has proven to be effective and can communicate. I'd vote for her.


You'd vote for a Lawyer who defended people who didn't want to pay out asbestos claims?
12:36am 05/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
648 posts
I find T Abbots survival as the leader of this country baffling:

T Abbott has made his many captains calls nearly all of which have blown up in his face, then his fixation with the Hitler regime as a means of describing his feelings creates an uneasy sensation that our great leader has lost his marbles.

Tony Abbott say's : ISIS worse than Nazis,job losses under labor a holocaust,Bill Shorten is like Joseph Goebbels, Australia has more morals than Nazi Germany.

He then says any body who talks about the goings on at detention centers will be prosecuted.
04:26am 05/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17898 posts
This isn't funny. This is basically what our current policy on towing back the boats is doing, just shifting the problem elsewhere. It would have to be among Australia's biggest shames.

https://scontent.fbne1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/11952043_10153122052811305_5867563461189852186_n.jpg?oh=4ebbe2d4fba06bd905dd726d0f8661b3&oe=56635FB8

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:15:06 05/Sep/15
08:13am 05/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17899 posts

You'd vote for a Lawyer who defended people who didn't want to pay out asbestos claims?


It's not fair to be angry at a criminal defence lawyer, everyone has the right to a fair trail and you need lawyers acting as defence as best they can for that. They are important to our legal system.
08:19am 05/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1802 posts
I completely agree criminal lawyers are important, Julie Bishop was a commercial litigation lawyer.

I am sure they also are important since corporations are people, but then to go on and serve in the public interest?

Yeah right.
10:23am 05/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1793 posts
the parties have a right to representation in civil litigation as well Redhat.

The claims of the victims need to be tested just as much as the claims of the company.
10:27am 05/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11879 posts
How tough must it be to be a Solicitor representing a pedo ?
We cant have a Legal System unless the Rights of all are respected no matter how terrible they may be.

Hopefully there is some kind of Justice in the next life.

11:35am 05/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7265 posts
I dunno if the ISIS is worse than the Nazi's but they are just as bad.

It's a race to see who is the bigger evil bunch of c****, whoever wins we lose.

Master Race vs Master Faith
02:34pm 05/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2271 posts
Hopefully there is some kind of Justice in the next life.



Keep Dreaming
08:20pm 05/09/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2779 posts
Australia's list of most shameful things done is ever increasing (it's almost like it's snowballing), it's pretty depressing honestly, especially being out of the country looking in.

Both parties are a joke, how can we get new blood through all the parties?
10:43pm 05/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
650 posts
Refreshing the political party's with new stock is an arresting contemplation at the moment we are seeing the last of the 1950's guys the next in line would have to be people born in the 70's and 80's which would bring a different mind set .

I think the sense of community that was brought about by the regrowth after the war is beginning to fade, it will be interesting to see how a teck savvy group of individuals run the country as opposed to the present government that seems to do all its calculations with an abacus and a slide rule.
04:11am 06/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11887 posts
Bolt Vs the Greens leader today was entertaining.
DiNatale looked more like an Opposition Leader than that Union guy.
least he had the balls to take on Bolt.

Labor had better watch out for the Greens.
03:17pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Vash
4607 posts
Yep, greens have my vote.
03:42pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2782 posts
Man, Turkey and Lebanon have both taken over 1 million refugees from Syria, while Europe's getting hundreds of thousands now.

Europe's getting on the welcome refugees with open arms train despite initial resistance, cheering crowds with donated goods greet them in Germany, whilst there's grass roots movements in many euro countries offering to house refugees, and self-run aid donations.

How many boat people was Aus getting per year? 10-30 thousand a year? And we tow them back to where they came from or put them in concentration camps!? I've even seen some right wing media swirling in Aus/NZ on the Facebooks saying the drowned boy was fake, and all the refugees are fake, and the civil war in Syria ain't that bad!

What a world we live in.
04:44pm 06/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25337 posts
Imagine that. Instead of a years long fear and disinformation campaign efforts were instead focussed on

a) taking in as many refugees as possible
b) ensuring their journey here is safe
c) setting them up so they can benefit from our prosperous society

Instead vast amounts of money were spent on a campaign of lies to make people believe asylum seekers are an economic threat. Then even more money was spent on concentration camps where they're held indefinitely in inhumane conditions. More people have died at Manus Island than have been resettled. Maybe Abbott should be looking at himself when he makes Nazi comparisons.
04:50pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1005 posts
The Greens have had my vote for a while though thanks to Senator Waters and her ilk I've been sorely tempted to vote for someone else.
06:51pm 06/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25338 posts
dem wimmin been annoying yer by speakin too loudly?
06:59pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1006 posts
Really fpot?

Going the ad hominim route? Surely you can do better than that. Logical fallacies are weak.

I'm not a fan of hypocrites. I'm a supporter of equality. Senator Waters, from her words and actions is a hypocrite and not a supporter of equality. That's why she's losing my support.

But please, tell me fpot where I have *ever* said anything that would indicate that I consider men to be superior to women (or the reverse) or that women should "stay in the kitchen" etc. etc.? Please enlighten me.

Because all I have seen so far from you indicates an ignorance about this sort of stuff and that you jump to conclusions. In this regard you're no better than the conservatives on this forum.

I'm a progressive. I'm pro-social justice. I'm pro-equality. I'm pro-fairness. And that's why I can't agree with people like Ms. Waters.

07:10pm 06/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25339 posts
Because of this buggy forum I can't actually bring up your old posts. But you do remember the last time you posted in this thread don't you? It was a bizarre little rant about how women were naturally nurturing and gravitated towards those roles and how men were the opposite. This is obvious bulls*** and you were called out on it. You started accusing people of succumbing to their feels and abandoning science and logic. You said there were actual studies done by actual scientists that proved you right. Myself and viper both asked you to post them but you mysteriously stopped posting. Funny that. There's also the thing where you actually think gamersgate was about ethics in games journalism (I chuckle when I write that) which is almost descending into Poe's Law territory. Basically you acted exactly like infi and brool do when their beliefs are questioned - giant rants with heaps of scare quotes with no evidence to back it up.

But please. Do point out the problems with what Larissa Waters and wimmin of her ilk have said. It will make for good reading I reckon.
07:20pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9083 posts
07:35pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1007 posts
Regarding biologically evolved gender roles: I stand by my comments.

Here's the sniff test for it: Name a single human culture where the majority of the hunting or fighting (of other tribes or groups etc) is done by females and where the majority of the caring for the kids is done by the males. Can you name even one? And I don't just mean from the "connected" world. I also include those tribes in remote locations that haven't ever been under the evil control of the "Patriarchy".

The fact of the matter is that evolution has a tendency to cause some specialization. Certain birds or insects might be found that have an appendage that seems to magically be just the right length to reach into a particular type of flower. Unlike what the creationists might claim, this comes about because of natural selection. Those creatures that had a longer appendage were better able to feed off that flower giving them an advantage food wise which in turn gives them an increased chance of surviving and passing on their genes.

Similarly with humans, the reproductive "bottleneck" is the female. Humans usually only have one baby at a time (that requires comparatively a LOT of care and attention post birth) and the gestation period is 9 months. Furthermore females have a limited window of fertility. Males on the other hand have a larger window of fertility and no "gestation" period.

So, given evolution, what do you think is more likely? Either
a) Despite the physical differences between males and females (which I seriously hope you're not going to dispute) that there's absolutely zero psychological differences between the sexes, or
b) There are on average some psychological differences between the sexes just like there are physical differences?

I can provide a simple thought simulation to show how, for example, males end up being the main fighters. It comes down however to the fact that females the the reproductive bottleneck. Biologically speaking, males *are* more disposable than females in terms of propagation of the species.

Traditional "gender roles" do tend to arise from biological pressures and specializations.

However, *despite* what the biological pressures are, I believe that we are all individuals and that in a society that is passed the point of subsistence like we're in, that we can afford to treat people equally.

So I'm *against* enforced gender roles. I fully support women choosing traditionally "male" roles. I fully support men choosing traditionally "female" roles. The sex of someone is irrelevant to me when it comes to what they choose to do in life. I fully support people, irrespective of sex, being paid the same for the same work. I fully support people, irrespective of sex, developing computer games. I fully support people, irrespective of sex, playing computer games. I fully support people, irrespective of sex, writing about computer games.

As for what you and Viper came up with, I got sidetracked. Tracking down studies is something I've done before (especially for the Domestic Violence debate), but it's still not a trivial task to find, collate and present the results from studies (especially when, in my experience people instantly ignore it all).

And again with GamerGate...it has ALWAYS been about a lack of ethics in gaming journalism. From Zoe Quinn getting rave reviews from her friends for her game (along with the collaboration to demonize anyone that pointed out the conflict of interest) through to the multiple bomb threats called in against GamerGate meets and multitude of death threats and doxxing against pro-GG supporters.

What issues do I have with Senator Waters? I follow her Facebook page (and that of the Greens). I've seen her argue that each woman should be paid more superannuation than a man for the same job due to the *average* difference across the genders in superannuation and income. I've seen her talk over and over about female victims of DV (often with "women and their children") and not once about male victims of DV. I've seen her argue time after time for special treatment for women compared to men. There's a word for what she advocates. Sexism. She is pro-sexual discrimination. She claims to support equality but her actions and words say otherwise. That's hypocritical.

Now I don't support the ALP or the LNP either. It's not like any of those parties are better than the others on this area, though at least the Greens are better on some others (or at least they mesh better with my position).

But supporting a party that is anti-science, anti-fact and is sexist? No, that's not easy for me to do.

09:05pm 06/09/15 Permalink
HerbalLizard
6277 posts
I did enjoy watching bolt, have the look like someone shat in his mouth.
09:14pm 06/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25340 posts
Unless I see some blue underlined text I am not reading your giant walls of yawn.
09:17pm 06/09/15 Permalink
HerbalLizard
6278 posts
???? Ohhh wall o text
09:29pm 06/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
652 posts
Rukh: Those creatures that had a longer appendage were better.

sn*****.

I wonder if T Abott will fall on his sword if the liberals lose the canning by election ?
10:08pm 06/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9084 posts
Hi fpot, I made these just for you.

First, there's this one.

Then, if that's not enough, Here's another one.

Enjoy.
11:44am 07/09/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38262 posts
And again with GamerGate...it has ALWAYS been about a lack of ethics in gaming journalism.
everyone says this but 99.9% of stuff I've read about gamergate has had nothing at all to do with games journalism. I still don't know what it means to be "pro gamergate" or "anti gamergate" because as a movement, it has failed miserably
11:33pm 07/09/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4408 posts
as I understood it, the "pro" camp is the one that believes gamergate (i.e. collusion in games journalism) is a real thing

the "anti" side is the one about sexism in gaming culture - it does seem that this side has managed to co-opt and define the term more successfully, however it may have started
01:06am 08/09/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2783 posts
Gamergate looked pretty much like a whole lot of immaturity, sexism and misogyny, under the guise of supposed corruption in game journalism. Sadly if there was any game journalism corruption to be highlighted, it got way lost under the horrendous torrents of frothing abuse that spewed forth from the movement at large.

In other news: Germany expects more than 800,000 asylum-seekers in 2015 alone - four times the 2014 figure.
09:26pm 08/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9086 posts
At a certain point when you have all these refugees flooding across borders, perhaps it's time to say "You know what, Syria? We're taking this land from your country - forcibly. These people are going to get their own state, which they control."

I mean seriously, when you've got somewhere around 1 million + refugees - that's enough people to build a city state on.
07:45am 09/09/15 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38264 posts
At a certain point when you have all these refugees flooding across borders, perhaps it's time to say "You know what, Syria? We're taking this land from your country - forcibly. These people are going to get their own state, which they control."

I mean seriously, when you've got somewhere around 1 million + refugees - that's enough people to build a city state on.
It's kind of ironic people now are all like "wtf are all these refugees? we need to do something about Syria?!?!" but back in the day when they were civil warring and citizens were getting blown up by their douchebag government everyone was all like "nah f*** those guys we don't need another Iraq". Pity you can't A/B test reality!
08:53am 09/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9087 posts
Heh. Previously to do damage to other countries, you'd fire weapons and march troops towards them. It seems now countries are getting just as effective causing damage to other countries by f*****g up their own countries, and having people flow out of their own countries in to remote countries.

But that's a "refugee problem".

I never understood this attitude of "we shouldn't get involved in other peoples problems". It's like being the neighbour who watches as the husband beats the s*** out of the wife, but goes "I shouldn't get involved, it's none of my business". Maybe he calls the cops and maybe they investigate, but ultimately there's no hard evidence other than one persons claim against the other. And the neighbour, well, really he's just staying out of it because if the husband knows he's the one who called in the cops, he'll start lobbing bricks over the fence; or that if we marched over there we'd get a knife to the stomach.

But then on scale a window becomes a city, and a brick becomes a rather large explosive.
09:08am 09/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11892 posts
"I shouldn't get involved, it's none of my business"


Because the next day the Wife is back with the Husband and they both now hate you and are now making threats towards you and your Family.

We shouldnt get involved in Civil Wars.

We should be applying pressure to those who are financing the Holocaust Death Cult from Hell.
12:12pm 09/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2272 posts
Holocaust Death Cult from Hell.


I'm certain you could have included carbon tax in that.
04:19pm 09/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7266 posts
I think we should let every refugee come to Australia. Just think of all the jobs that would be created building hospitals, farms, power stations, factories and houses.
07:44pm 09/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25343 posts
Why can't we build these things now?
07:51pm 09/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11893 posts
Because we are under a Budget Emergency

yet we can splash out $800 million cleaning up the mess made by Saudi Arabia and Qatar and Israel and also fund novelty air strikes.



08:13pm 09/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25344 posts
08:43pm 09/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
658 posts
Budget emergency ! what the hell is that?

Lf it's an emergency We understand drains in your area have malfunctioned sucking in people and whatnot.
08:49pm 09/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1796 posts
Gamergate looked pretty much like a whole lot of immaturity, sexism and misogyny, under the guise of supposed corruption in game journalism.


David Pakman has an interesting take on it. It's worthwhile to note that the Society of Professional Journalists did its ethics conference about gamergate this year. The guy in the interview is a 35 year veteran and he seems to think gamergate exposed issues needing to be addressed. So I think talk of guises may be misplaced.

youtube interview.

The whole thing confuses me a bit. It's undeniable that some extreme s*** was done in its name. I find the idea of corruption in the indie game scene to be a fairly unimportant matter. I also think that some bizarre s*** has been said about gaming in recent years.

One interesting point about gamergate, which is really only tangentially related, is the suitability of twitter for anything over and above sharing pictures of cats. It seems reasonable to assume that a good percentage of the "harassment" taking place was actually suffering from the following:

tone and text based communication
10:10am 10/09/15 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9088 posts
yet we can splash out $800 million cleaning up the mess made by Saudi Arabia and Qatar and Israel and also fund novelty air strikes.


Novelty air strikes?

Yeah, cos they're so much more appealing when played to to slap-stick sound effects and Yackety Sax.
12:03pm 10/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2273 posts
Why is Abbot a dead man walking

Was it justice, was it Karma?
Was it Murdoch, was it Palmer?
Was it lying and conceit?
Was it backbenchers fear of defeat?
Was it Mathias and Joe’s cigars?
Was it because we’ve stopped making cars?
Was it climate change denial?
Was it putting Julia on trial?
Was it the daughter’s scholarship prize?
Was it debt and deficit lies?
Was it removing the Carbon Tax?
Was it trying to give the RET the axe?
Was it cutting Foreign aid?
Was it being so retrograde?
Was it the Minister for Women joke?
Was it all the promises broke?
Was it Brandis’s bigots rights?
Was it prancing around in lycra tights?
Was it cutting the SBS and the ABC?
Was it costing more for university?
Was it imposing a GP tax?
Was it the disregard of facts?
Was it the ridiculous Dames and Knights?
Was it the threats and talk of fights?
Was it Joe’s “lifters and leaners”?
Was it cutting the pay of parliament’s cleaners?
Was it punishing pensioners and the unemployed?
Was it the total moral void?
Was it the embarrassing G20 address?
Was it the ongoing budget mess?
Was it the book-launch travel rort?
Was it knighting the Queen’s consort?
Was it use of the sham inquiry stunt?
Was it the weasel words of Hunt?
Was it the 800 Million given to News?
Was it longer unemployment queues?
Was it a budget most unfair?
Was it too much body hair?
Was it nobbling the NBN?
Was it lying again and again?
Was it exploiting terrorist threats?
Was it job applications of Eric Abetz?
Was it the sex worker wink?
Was it being too slow to think?
Was it Joe’s “poor people don’t drive”
Was it the polls taking a dive?
Was it the surprises and constant excuses?
Was it asylum seeker abuses?
Was it the work of Peta and the IPA?
Was it repeating slogans day after day?
Was it the dog whistle of “Team Australia”?
Was it the pungent smell of failure?
Was it wimping Putin’s shirt front?
Was it because Christopher Pyne is a pain?
Was it Arthur’s memory at ICAC?
Was it giving Mr Burns the sack?
Was it ever declining polls?
Was it funding Internet trolls?
Was it Newman’s election loss?
Was it the submarine double cross?
Was it saying the “Adults are in charge”?
Was it making the deficit more large?
Was it the whole damn useless crew?
Was it the ties of bogus blue?
Was it the hubris and the swagger?
Was it Malcolm and Julie’s dagger?
Was it saying he would change?
Was it becoming even more deranged?
Was it eating an onion raw?
Was it the data-retention law?
Was it exploiting Dr Karl?
Was it frequent smirking snarls?
Was it the daughter’s low rent at Kirribilli?
Was it “Fixer” Pyne being silly?
Was it acting like a bar room yob?
Was it offering Bjorn Lomborg a job?
Was it saying “I suppose we must grieve”
Was it the constant attempts to deceive?
Was it ditching his gold plated PPL mess?
Was it then making Labor’s PPL less?
Was it saying the deficit is no longer trouble?
Was it increasing your own deficit double?
Was it a second budget based on deception?
Was it threatening to call an early election?
Was it trying to get Gillian Triggs out?
Was it Dutton acting like a Brussel sprout?
Was it “get a good job that pays good money”
Was it laughing at things that just weren’t funny?
Was it all the talk of double dipping?
Was it cabinet leaks a constant dripping?
Was it denying marriage equality?
Was it Brandis reading poetry ?
Was it paying people smugglers to turn around?
Was it the dead cat bounce the polls have found?
Was it saying how much he hated wind farms?
Was it lying each day without any qualms?
Was it Brandis controlling the Arts?
Was it the emission of smelly brain farts?
Was it the false outrage at QandA?
Was it telling ministers to stay away?
Was it Bishop’s ride in a chopper?
Was it cos Abbott did nothing to stop her?
Was it Shorten’s conference revival?
Was it party room fears for their own survival?
Was it because we never got the 550 bucks?
Was it that increasing the GST sucks?
Was it Dyson being a party pooper?
Was it trying to nobble industry super?
Was it wanting to bomb in Syria?
Was it the Border Force hysteria?
Was it saying that Nazis are better than ISIS?
Was it trying to score from the refugee crisis?
07:42pm 10/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22873 posts
the person who wrote that should get a job and hobby.
08:14pm 10/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9175 posts
Funny, what was the only 'job' Abbott had before becoming a politician? Oh right, writing opinion columns about everybody else, yet you were harping on about how he should lead the country.

You know nothing about whoever made that list infi, and I bet you've put in more time typing s*** up for political's sake. Such a copout when you just don't want to hear what somebody is saying, just make up negative s*** about them.
09:24pm 10/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17915 posts
Nerf,

Come on, we know that the guy that wrote that obviously works at the ABC. Probably one of the guys that writes a column about political stuff.

Since writing about politics isn't really a job and shouldn't be anyones Hobby, infi would be right.
06:59am 11/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1803 posts
That s*** writes itself tbh
07:14am 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25345 posts
I like that poem because it shows there have been so many Abbott f*** ups that you can rhyme them.
07:20am 11/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1797 posts
Pretty Savage. Pretty Accurate.
07:47am 11/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2274 posts
10:04am 11/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1804 posts

Hooray. Horrible nanny state laws are being looked at in a senate enquiry.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/senate-nanny-state-inquiry-begins/6766740?WT.mc_id=Innovation_News|Drugs,PornographyAndBicycleHelmetsUnderSenateMicroscopeAsDavidLeyonhjelms%22NannyState%22InquiryBegins_FBP|abc

Personally I look forward to the day I can 420 blaze it while riding without a helmet.


10:34am 11/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17916 posts

Personally I look forward to the day I can 420 blaze it while riding without a helmet.


Then drown as your tripped out brain stacks it into an unfenced pool, while the owners were out playing Airsoft on their friends farm.
11:06am 11/09/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2046 posts
I would like the state government to remove stamp duties.
12:37pm 11/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1805 posts

Wow.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/dutton-overheard-joking-about-sea-levels-in-pacific-islands/6768324

I thought they didn't believe in climate change? Now they're making jokes and laughing about other pacific nations who will cop the brunt of rising sea levels.


01:09pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22874 posts
I would like the state government to remove stamp duties.


and payroll tax
03:51pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25346 posts

Wow.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/dutton-overheard-joking-about-sea-levels-in-pacific-islands/6768324

I thought they didn't believe in climate change? Now they're making jokes and laughing about other pacific nations who will cop the brunt of rising sea levels.
Easy there dude it's just a joke. Not like they're building they've built concentration camps where government sanctioned torture and government ignored child rape is occurring or anything!
04:23pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22876 posts
Not like they're building they've built concentration camps where government sanctioned torture and government ignored child rape is occurring or anything!


closing them actually.
04:45pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25347 posts


closing them actually.
link?

Even if they're closed tomorrow it doesn't make what I said wrong - they were still built in the first place.
05:32pm 11/09/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39733 posts
Personally I look forward to the day I can 420 blaze it while riding without a helmet.


the day australia gives up on it citizens and abolishes mhl is the day i leave for a more sensible country.
05:42pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22877 posts

link?

Even if they're closed tomorrow it doesn't make what I said wrong - they were still built in the first place.
http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/asylum-seekers-government-to-reveal-budget-saving-from-detention-centre-closures/story-fni0cx12-1227333486734
05:43pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25348 posts
Nope nothing in that article whatsoever about Manus and Nauru being closed. You're lying again.
05:58pm 11/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11895 posts
Channel 10 News tonight interviewed survivors of the sinking that drowned Aylan Kurdi, the toddler whose tragic picture is discussed below. It turns out the boy’s father was the people smuggler in charge of the boat, which he overloaded.



http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/aylan-kurdi-drowned-boys-father-accused-of-being-people-smuggler-in-charge-of-boat-that-crashed/story-fnii5s3x-1227523270638

oops
06:07pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22878 posts
Whilst the smuggling industry is closed eventually manus and nauru will close too. No clients, no detention centres.

The key is to not reward human trafficking. It saves lives and saves taxpayer funds.
06:15pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25349 posts
Blah blah blah. The same s*** you've been saying for years because you're a well trained LNP doggy. Good boy.
06:23pm 11/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7270 posts
Perhaps we should start a legitimate shipping service from Indonesia for genuine and economic refugees.

* Using proper boats would ensure no drownings at sea.

* We could charge the economic refugees whatever they were paying the dodgey people smugglers as a trip/processing fee.

* Genuine refugees fleeing from perpetual war zones like the middle-east would be given free passage as long as they had all their id's etc.

This would stop the drownings; shut down people smugglers; eliminate the need for detention centres.
06:56pm 11/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
661 posts
You're Majesty i am an explorer not a refugee transporter fck you Cook ,if i say transport refugees on yore damned boat that's what you will do.

http://travelsix.com.au/images/Madame-Tussaud-Darling-Harbour-Wax-Museum-captain-cook-james-cook1.jpg
07:32pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22879 posts
Perhaps we should start a legitimate shipping service from Indonesia for genuine and economic refugees.

* Using proper boats would ensure no drownings at sea.

* We could charge the economic refugees whatever they were paying the dodgey people smugglers as a trip/processing fee.

* Genuine refugees fleeing from perpetual war zones like the middle-east would be given free passage as long as they had all their id's etc.

This would stop the drownings; shut down people smugglers; eliminate the need for detention centres.


What volume limit would place on it? Our customer base would be quite large.
07:38pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22880 posts
Nope nothing in that article whatsoever about Manus and Nauru being closed. You're lying again.


where did i say they closed nauru and manus? you collectively referred to concentration camps and i replied that they are in the process of being closed as evidenced by the falling cost in the 2015 budget.... and the fact the centres are being shut down due to lack of detainees. you have your blinkers on... :s

if it was up to fpot and the socialist alliance we would roll out the red carpet and open up the cheque book, more children washing up on Christmas island. so sad.

the government could comply perfectly with the Refugee convention and yet still provide proper resettlement to legitimate refugees by legislating an offence of commissioning or paying or travelling on a people smuggler operation. criminals would automatically be excluded from the operation of the Convention. a further disincentive to use people smugglers would exist because even if an offender made the migration zone they would be charged with the offense of using a people smuggling service within Australia.

It is important to close these detention facilities as it is tough living and should only be for the security risks which need to be evaluated.
08:53pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25350 posts
Holy s***. I actually remember when I took the time to respond to your rabid dishonest frothfests. It's because once upon a time I thought you were just a regular dumb person who had been misled.

Now I know you're really nothing more than a drone. A worthless little shill trained how to think and what to say. Nothing anyone says to you will ever make a difference. You don't know how to process new information. All that resides in your brain cavity is a festering pile of s*** that occasionally escapes out your mouth.

Gonna complain about how you're being abused again princess? Here's how to make it stop. Learn how to think critically. Strive to be more than a well trained little doggy. Don't be a dumb racist coward. Good luck.
09:14pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22881 posts
If you thought critically, it would be patently obvious that Australia cannot roll out the red carpet with zero negative consequences. Do gooders rarely consider the practical consequences of their demands.

We are already the number one per capita country for resettling refugees in the world. $50b in deficit, pensioners cannot meet the costs of living and yet fpot and the socialist alliance are falling over themselves to bring in more arrivals 80% of which remain on benefits 5 years later.

I am thankful both the major parties (and most Australian voters) understand this dynamic and are not influenced by the noisy minority.
09:36pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25351 posts
bolt comments.txt
09:42pm 11/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22882 posts
And you have no answers for it except "lets spend even more money accepting and housing hundreds of thousands of refugees". Screw australia's citizens.

Not that you even have any idea of how many you would accept. Because those details are not interesting or within your comprehension.
09:58pm 11/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25352 posts
I think I've answered the questions in your last post a dozen times now.

So I've noticed you've been pretty tame in this thread for a while now but wow you're back with a vengeance today aren't you? Bringing back all your years old lies and dumbisms with renewed vigour. Good for you.
10:08pm 11/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
662 posts
Something i didn't know: Tony Abbott emigrated from england to Sydney with his parents in 1960.

Our Prime minister is a british stooge,he is not even an oooorstralian!
07:09am 12/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1798 posts
"lets spend even more money accepting and housing hundreds of thousands of refugees"


This line would have an ounce of purchase if it didn't cost $54 million to relocate 4 refugees to Cambodia under the current arrangements link.

We are witnessing the biggest migration event since the 2nd world war infi. Spending some money to avert a human rights crisis is a distinct possibility. The idea that it saves lives is bollocks anyway.

Bangladeshis are turning up in the med so instead of drowning in Torres straight they are drowning on Greece's doorstep.

If the people are genuine refugees our policies do *nothing* but shift the problem elsewhere. They don't save lives full stop.
09:02am 12/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7271 posts
lol population control

03:23pm 12/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11897 posts
A few ppl here must be excited about Jeremy Corbyn becoming the Leader of the British Labor Party. He is genuine far Left Labor and its difficult to think of anyone from Labor here that would support him. Several sitting members of Labors Cabinet have since resigned.

He was put forward as a bit of a joke candidate but a groundswell of support from young Socialist groups signing up new members led to him thrashing the other players.

He wants to nationalise Industries like the Railways and Electricity/Gas, abolish Uni fees, get rid of Nukes, stop support for all Wars, bring in more Refugees, and is anti-Israel! end Austerity and massively increase Government spending.

Could it spread to Australia ?
11:13am 13/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7272 posts
I hope so
01:11pm 13/09/15 Permalink
HerbalLizard
6282 posts
A few ppl here must be excited about Jeremy Corbyn becoming the Leader of the British Labor Party. He is genuine far Left Labor and its difficult to think of anyone from Labor here that would support him. Several sitting members of Labors Cabinet have since resigned.

He was put forward as a bit of a joke candidate but a groundswell of support from young Socialist groups signing up new members led to him thrashing the other players.

He wants to nationalise Industries like the Railways and Electricity/Gas, abolish Uni fees, get rid of Nukes, stop support for all Wars, bring in more Refugees, and is anti-Israel! end Austerity and massively increase Government spending.

Could it spread to Australia ?
And every night since, Abbott secretly cries for the motherland
06:37pm 13/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11899 posts
haha the Turnbull for Leader media masturbation has started again.

Turnbull will never lead the Liberal Party.
Not today, not next week, not ever.

08:38pm 13/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1799 posts
If you say so. wanna bet 20 bucks? Lets call it 10 years. If Turnbull hasn't led the liberal party between now and 2025 you owe me 20 bucks.
09:01am 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17917 posts

If Turnbull hasn't led the liberal party between now and 2025 you owe me 20 bucks.


Adjusted for inflation of course.
10:32am 14/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
663 posts
Any of you scalawags that wasted you're formative years hacking want a job? the Federal government is hiring hackers..

https://www.dto.gov.au/#op-77855-ethical-hacker
12:49pm 14/09/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25353 posts
There's a doings a transpiring.
03:57pm 14/09/15 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1723 posts
ABC just posted:

‪#‎BREAKING‬: Malcolm Turnbull has met with Prime Minister Tony Abbott to request a ballot for the party leadership.
04:01pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4409 posts
oh yeah it's on

if "the c***roach" is making a move too then there's definitely something substantial there
04:01pm 14/09/15 Permalink
wilk0r
Melbourne, Victoria
2 posts
04:15pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Vash
4608 posts
04:25pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Creepy
USA
2464 posts
Australia, where if you don't like the PM you can just whine enough and the party will replace it for you without even having to go out and vote.
04:32pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17918 posts
The Game of Canberra.

Brace yourselves, a challenge is coming.
04:33pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17919 posts

Australia, where if you don't like the PM you can just whine enough and the party will replace it for you without even having to go out and vote.


Australia, where the democratic process involves voting for MP's who form a party and select their own leader.
04:34pm 14/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11901 posts
jesus those dumb clowns.

Why have Elections ?
The Media can just keep making up rumours till some fat-head thinks he has the numbers. is this going to happen all the time now ?

This is going to destroy the Liberal Party if Turnbull wins.
He is hated beyond belief by hardcore Liberals.

I can not believe he has the numbers.
He wont win.

Australia, where the democratic process involves voting for MP's who form a party and select their own leader.


The Party selects a Leader before Elections
not after them
although that appears to be the new method.
Now the Coalition cant say they are any better than Labor.

Well thats going to be the end of Labor because theres no way Shorten could beat Turnbull hes more Left Wing than Shorten.

I AM OUTRAGED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im going to make some angry phone calls to all the local Liberals.



last edited by FaceMan at 17:35:53 14/Sep/15
05:30pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39739 posts
lols, liberals cant win wiht tone
06:37pm 14/09/15 Permalink
BladeRunner
Queensland
2172 posts
I kinda want Tony Abbott to win because he will loose at the next election but on the other hand.....old Mal is far more competent I feel. Tony is our George Bush.
06:41pm 14/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11902 posts
Hockey just put the boot in to Turnbull and basically called him Liar saying he hasnt talked about the Economy in Coalition meetings at all.

I dont think Turnbull can do it.


http://i.imgur.com/0SLbHVw.jpg

06:45pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39740 posts
big joe will probably get the boot if mal gets in
06:54pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17921 posts
Australia needs Tony to get outed.

Hopefully this will happen tonight.

If it doesn't, another 12 months of fail after fail after fail, after embarrassment, after fail, etc.
06:55pm 14/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22883 posts
Jeff Kennett described Turnbull as the Kevin Rudd of the Liberal Party. Such an accurate description. It's all about Malcolm.

Very tempting and seductive to put a silver-tongued narcissist in power, but you eventually get bitten.
06:58pm 14/09/15 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11915 posts
Australia needs Tony to get outed.


Next Sunday Telegraph headline?
06:58pm 14/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9176 posts
Very tempting and seductive to put a silver-tongued narcissist in power, but you eventually get bitten.


I love how you respond to the person who is actually a) self-made wealthy instead of relying on favours, b) isn't on the news every day doing stupid s*** like eating onions and talking about beating up russian leaders, c) accepts science.

All the antithesis of what you're about.
07:10pm 14/09/15 Permalink
d0mino
Melbourne, Victoria
5442 posts
I like Malcolm. I would vote for him.
07:19pm 14/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7273 posts
Very bad news for Bull S***ten if Malcolm gets in.
07:28pm 14/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2275 posts
Very bad news for Bull S***ten if Malcolm gets in.


I can see the Greens making a move in the lower house next election to oust both the LNP and Labor...

Truss said the Coalition agreement is with Tones, does that mean if Mal gets the call that the Nats will split with the Libs or are they chickens***.
07:40pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4410 posts

The Media can just keep making up rumours till some fat-head thinks he has the numbers. is this going to happen all the time now ?


i agree with all of this in principle, however in this case tony is s*** and malcolm isn't, so go malcolm
07:50pm 14/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11903 posts
Turnbull doesnt have the big factions.
Hes betting on a lot of undecided/Maybees

For Abbott:
Andrews
Fryberg
Hockey
Dutton
Corban
Hunt
and prolly most important Scott Morrison

Turnbull camp:
Turnbull and Bishop and nervous backbenchers




07:51pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Vash
4609 posts

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...bs/BN/0708/praa

The Parliamentary Retiring Allowances Act 1948
s.19A period of service for Prime Minister to attain eligibility reduced from three years (1952) to two years. Additional retiring allowance for Prime Minister ranged from 2000 per annum for two years aggregate service to 3000 per annum for six years aggregate service and over. New benefit to widow of deceased Prime Minister: rate equalled one-half of the Prime Minister s retiring allowance per annum, payable until remarriage.

Tony Abbott became PM on September 18th, 2015.

4 Days until Abbott is eligible for the retirement benefits. Haha f*** yes, i hope Turnbull gets in so Abbott gets double f***ed
07:54pm 14/09/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22884 posts


I love how you respond to the person who is actually a) self-made wealthy instead of relying on favours, b) isn't on the news every day doing stupid s*** like eating onions and talking about beating up russian leaders, c) accepts science.

All the antithesis of what you're about.


Malcolm is a snake in the grass, virtually identical to Rudd in every way. Loves backgrounding journos and destabilising Cabinet. Is not loyal to his leader. Speaks out publicly against Cabinet policy. Everything is about Malcolm. He should have stayed in business where he could do what he wants. The Libs will regret electing Turnbull. I wont be voting for him.

He calls a spill the week before a very important by-election. Can you get any more self-centred?

And I am strongly in favour of all of the things you have stated above.
08:02pm 14/09/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7274 posts
08:38pm 14/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1800 posts
The Party selects a Leader before Elections
not after them


No it doesn't

For Abbott:
Andrews
Fryberg
Hockey
Dutton
Corban
Hunt
and prolly most important Scott Morrison


The only person in that list who isn't an outright failure in their portfolio is Morrison and he is hardly a success.

If that is who you are saying is abbotts camp, then good riddance to bad rubbish.

Is not loyal to his leader. Speaks out publicly against Cabinet policy.

Abbott's cabinet produced policy?
08:44pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4411 posts
Turnbull camp:
Turnbull and Bishop and nervous backbenchers

don't forget Wyatt Boy
09:08pm 14/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9177 posts
Malcolm is a snake in the grass, virtually identical to Rudd in every way. Loves backgrounding journos and destabilising Cabinet. Is not loyal to his leader. Speaks out publicly against Cabinet policy. Everything is about Malcolm. He should have stayed in business where he could do what he wants. The Libs will regret electing Turnbull. I wont be voting for him.

He calls a spill the week before a very important by-election. Can you get any more self-centred?

And I am strongly in favour of all of the things you have stated above.

I'm aware of the hilarious panic the frothing Murdoch media outlets been nurturing towards Turnbull for years. Abbott took the leadership from Turnbull with a knife it the back first, over acceptance of science, just lol.
09:13pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10542 posts
haha the Turnbull for Leader media masturbation has started again.

Turnbull will never lead the Liberal Party.
Not today, not next week, not ever.


Lol Faceman ... he was the leader and he got defeated on 1 vote by denying science. So by definition your comment is wrong already...
09:44pm 14/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9178 posts
Haha check out the tears of Murdoch's propaganda machine.

http://i.imgur.com/UkxkQcU.jpg
09:51pm 14/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9179 posts

Malcolm Turnbull is Australia's PM. Faceman is wrong once again. One-term Tone didn't even make it one term.

https://twitter.com/abcnews/status/643391081946742784


09:55pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17922 posts

haha the Turnbull for Leader media masturbation has started again.

Turnbull will never lead the Liberal Party.
Not today, not next week, not ever.


lol almost 24 hours exactly. Faceman is no prophet.
09:56pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Vash
4610 posts
this is f*****g awesome. im so happy
09:57pm 14/09/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
664 posts
I hope T Abbott remains the leader it's the only way that weirdo Shorten (Bill Shorten reminds me of the news reader in Jibber and Jabber) will come close to getting over the line at the next election.

Bill Shorten is associated with the Australian workers union and he has the look of the smiling assassin i find him as creepy as hell every time he smiles,i hope he falls by the way side asap.

Now that Malcolm Turnbull is the leader Labor with B Shorten have no chance at the next election.
10:03pm 14/09/15 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
18750 posts
cya tones.

#putoutyouronions

10:03pm 14/09/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2276 posts
One thing to come of all of this is how wrong Faceman is.

Malcolm Turnbull is Australia's PM. Faceman is wrong once again. One-term Tone didn't even make it one term.



Indeed, One-Term Tone was an overestimation.
10:04pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2784 posts
Wowzers! I'm not up on the details but everything I've seen Turnball say has been reasonable and made sense. I see Bishop is backing him and people seem to like her, so could be a goer!

I like his comments about a return to cabinet and open government. Abbott and his main ministers are a joke of incompetence, no transparency, bad policies and stupid slogans.
10:12pm 14/09/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11904 posts
...anyone but that Traitor

I can not believe theyve gone with him.
Turnbull isnt a Conservative hes a Turnbull.

MALCOLM Turnbull wanted to become Kim Beazley's shadow finance minister during the second term of the Howard Government.

The Sunday Telegraph has confirmed Mr Turnbull approached at least six senior ALP figures, including former Prime Minister Bob Hawke, actively seeking their endorsement to join the ALP at the time of the republic referendum.


This will not stand
Turnbull has to go.
10:12pm 14/09/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9180 posts
Most of Australia right now (butthurt climate science denial conspiratards exempted):

10:13pm 14/09/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1801 posts
haha the Turnbull for Leader media masturbation has started again.

Turnbull will never lead the Liberal Party.
Not today, not next week, not ever.


So about that 20 bucks Faceman...

Turnbull isnt a Conservative hes a Turnbull.


Turnbull is a conservative. He wants to occupy the center which is about as conservative as it gets. Abbott is the fringe dweller by a societal standard, not Turnbull. If Abbott is representative of the LNP then the LNP needs a f*****g reality check.

Pretty funny really. Abbott must be getting a look in for the shortest ever term.
10:17pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17923 posts
There were shorter.

He would certainly be regarded as one of Australia's worst performing Prime Ministers.


Malcom Turnball + Julie Bishop will make a formidable pair. Shorten doesn't stand a chance. Nothing Labor have will stand a chance, they have done pretty much nothing for the past 2-3 years, clawing at Tonez at best.

10:27pm 14/09/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1806 posts
haha the Turnbull for Leader media masturbation has started again.

Turnbull will never lead the Liberal Party.
Not today, not next week, not ever.



lols facey!

Bill Shorten must be hating it, Labor should just axe him and put in Albo.