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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6505 posts
Not sure about NSW ALP victory Pave. They had some pretty deep corruption and while a few things have come out against LNP it's no-where near to the extent that the ALP stuff (still) is.
They also didn't go anywhere near as crazy as QLDs LNP, so it will be a lot closer and I think they will hold power in NSW.

Federally though, c**** f***ed.
09:14pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1896 posts

Labor has no solution
Shortens solution is more debt he said the same thing on the Project the other night, his solution is to spend more money.

At some point the public has to grow up and understand that there are three solutions:
Increase Taxes
Decrease Services
Sell off Assets

The LNPs pitch was too brutal for a Society addicted to sugar-hit handouts.

You really are being hyprocritical about debt and deficits.

http://www.crikey.com.au/.../coalition-on-track-to.../

Coalition on track to double Labor’s debt and deficit
----------------------------------------------------------------------

First, it shows that the Abbott government is on track to double the debt left by Labor — by about Christmas next year. Second, it confirms budget deficits will also double those projected under Labor over the next four years. The third item implicit in the document — although not exactly spelled out — is that Australia’s debt is not “spiralling out of control” and never was. Fourth, this was a timely release of finance data — within the month — for the first time since the May figures.

Coalition on track to double Labor’s debt and deficit –


and to add insult to injury to the LNP lie they're always the better managers of the economy and debt/deficit. In WA the state debt was $3.5billion before Colin Barnett and now after the greatest mining boom in WA history are 500% more or $20billion in debt. Go figure.
09:25pm 06/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20410 posts
There are ways to pay the debt back without f*****g the working man or destroying our geat health care system, this isn't news to anyone and has been listed in these threads all the time.

The three groups of people that got nailed the most that last budget and it was students, lower income earners and pensioners like seriously of all the groups of people to pick on, they choose those groups to pay the debt back with. I am not saying they get off completely scott free either.

The libs need to stop protecting big business so much and i am not saying they need to screw big business into the ground but some f*****g balance would be nice. Then you have some d******* treasurer making generalised condescending comments about those exact groups and how they spend their money, is it any wonder everyone hates this government.

The debt doesn't need to be paid back in one term.
09:33pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1897 posts
^ Hear hear Pave.
09:39pm 06/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24859 posts
They also need to stop the torture and refoulement of children for the crime of being brown.

edit: and adults
09:47pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4356 posts
They also need to stop the torture and refoulement of children for the crime of being brown.

edit: and adults

what we need is a 'control group' of white boat people to test this theory

I nominate poms
10:31pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15841 posts
what we need is a 'control group' of white boat people to test this theory

I nominate poms

White people fleeing persecution don't get on boats, they are warmly greeted and helped settle elsewhere.

See: White landowners fleeing South Africa.
10:40pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6660 posts
The libs need to stop protecting big business so much


Tone is having enough trouble with support from internal party colleagues at the moment, you want his core constituency to turn on him as well?
Harsh.
10:55pm 06/02/15 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1686 posts


Tone is having enough trouble with support from internal party colleagues at the moment, you want his core constituency to turn on him as well?
Harsh.

Would be funny though.
11:46pm 06/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24860 posts
So the reserve bank lowered its rates, which apparently means the economy is slowing. I thought axing the carbon tax was meant to make the economy better?
12:47am 07/02/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4910 posts
Burn baby burn
12:54am 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22300 posts
So the reserve bank lowered its rates, which apparently means the economy is slowing. I thought axing the carbon tax was meant to make the economy better?

Many countries are lowering rates. The global economy is slowing.

http://www.propertyobserver.com.au/images/2015/01/30/zoe-jan-30-onem.jpg
12:57am 07/02/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6661 posts

Would be funny though.


No doubt. :D
All I can think of is that the business of running this great country can't be too hard if evidently there's so much time for navel gazing on both sides of politics.
02:28am 07/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20411 posts
heh those crazy ruskies +6.5%
09:01am 07/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4295 posts
Guess all those countries need to start applying cuts to get their economies going again /s
11:19am 07/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2123 posts
Labor has no solution
Shortens solution is more debt he said the same thing on the Project the other night, his solution is to spend more money.

At some point the public has to grow up and understand that there are three solutions:
Increase Taxes
Decrease Services
Sell off Assets

The LNPs pitch was too brutal for a Society addicted to sugar-hit handouts.



You just joined the infi school of economic d*******s



There is a fourth way: print money. Ask Hurricane Jim.


No, printing money would incur additional costs. Just to inform you of modern 21st Century methods, it's an electronic ledger entry.

How does it feel to have Faceman in your daisy chain of economic d*******s.
11:23am 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22302 posts
"Printing money" is the common pejorative term for all magic-pudding free money strategies. Your "magical computer money" falls neatly into that category.

Free money, created on a computer. No hard work required. Let's give everyone a billion Hurricane dollars. It's that easy.... what a moron.
11:33am 07/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7073 posts
When China sneezes, Australia catches a cold.
11:56am 07/02/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14348 posts
I just love how gun hoe we are about coal when its pretty clear it won't be around forever. Why have we not bothered to invest in renewable energies? Surely the Liberal parties sees potential in ripping people off through that avenue as well?
12:41pm 07/02/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
440 posts
I think the solar panel rebate thingy is still going.

Also that sneezing comparison is flawed China is so polluted just about every Chinese person would be sneezing 24/7 which would equate to the whole of Australia suffering from the flue.
01:02pm 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22304 posts
I think the solar panel rebate thingy is still going.


it sure is i have just this week installed solar across my businesses and at home.
01:05pm 07/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2124 posts
"Printing money" is the common pejorative term for all magic-pudding free money strategies. Your "magical computer money" falls neatly into that category.

Free money, created on a computer. No hard work required. Let's give everyone a billion Hurricane dollars. It's that easy.... what a moron.


Nothing to do with magic, it's how the system works. You being in denial is where the work is d*******.


So lets prove you're in denial.

You're an employer, you have employees at the old peoples home. Do you pay them in cash? When the residents pay you do they hand over cash? When you pay bills, like the solar system purchases you made, did you hand over cash? What "ballpark" figure of cash usage do you have in a week? What "ballpark' figure amount do you transact that involves transfers. Do you process cheques at all? Do you or an employee do a bank run on a daily basis to deposit money?

If any of these payments doesn't involve actually physical money isn't it just a few ledger entries, whether in ink or electronic? When your bank actually does these ledger transfers do you think they move actual money from one place to the other? When they move the transactions between banks is it electronically or are our roads flooded with armoured cars moving tons of cash between vaults? When you do see an armoured car do they need a forklift to move the cash?

Do you think all monies held by the "big four banks" are held as cash? Or is a substantial sum only ledger entries? Are these ledger entries magic'd into existence?
05:07pm 07/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4297 posts
money is debt.
06:11pm 07/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11539 posts
Hurricane Jim is the Wayne Swann of VashLand.
07:24pm 07/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1178 posts
If you don't borrow more money to fund and expand the welfare state you are an incredibly selfish horrible person who is ATTACKING the poor.
08:38pm 07/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24861 posts
You do realise how absurd it is for a perpetually unemployed basement boy to whinge about a welfare state strawman don't you? Of course you don't.
08:42pm 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22305 posts
It's not even necessary to borrow money. Just print billions of Hurricane Dollars. They are like the vouchers you get in the entertainment book but you can fund whole countries with them.
08:59pm 07/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24862 posts
What makes paper money worthless, yet gold valuable? Honest question.

My guess is because gold is finite and naturally limited by it's rarity. Reason I ask is that they seem equally worthless to me in a practical sense.
09:05pm 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22306 posts
Gold has been valuable since the beginning of time due to its durability, relative rarity and beauty.

Hurricane Dollars have been around since the beginning of currency. Emperors, kings and other sovereigns have tried to pay debts to lenders and citizens by shaving gold off standard size coins or by creating new classes of currency for thousands of years. Moving from gold backed currency to paper based "fiat" currency meant there no longer needed to be any form of gold wealth behind each unit of currency created.

And just as Hurricane Jim has suggested, sovereigns would use their new unbacked currency to try and pay soliders or lenders for their wars and other government expenditure.

People (especially lenders) aren't stupid though and eventually any sovereign trying to print their own currency without a corresponding increase in actual productivity went broke or severely impaired their economy. Hurricane Jim is just the latest in a long line of con artists who wants to piss on poor wage earners and small business people and tell them its raining.
09:37pm 07/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24863 posts
Still not really getting it. Say you have a vault full of cash and a vault full of gold roughly the same value as the cash. What makes the gold more tangibly valuable than the cash? You did mention rarity, but if controls are in place regulating how much money is printed shouldn't that take care of that problem? Steel is more durable (except against tarnishing but it makes up for that in strength imo) than gold and you can just paint it a gold colour to get the beauty. Just personally I see gold as arbitrarily valuable as cash and I've never really seen a compelling argument otherwise.

I do get that if you go nuts printing money you're going to f*** yourself with inflation.
10:02pm 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22307 posts

You did mention rarity, but if controls are in place regulating how much money is printed shouldn't that take care of that problem?


because governments and sovereigns can't help themselves - it's so alluring, a simple easy fix to all government spending problems. as Hurricane Jim said, it's free and miraculous right?. they just never tell wage earners they are gonna get f***ed up the ass.

gold cannot be copied infinitely. it takes time and capital for it to be extracted. furthermore, resource markets reinforce this inherent value by the way it is stockpiled by government to back their own economies. Hurricane Dollars are in plentiful supply in every banana republic around the world.

http://www.futuresmag.com/2014/08/28/top-gold-reserves-by-country-2014-edition
10:08pm 07/02/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
443 posts
.
What makes paper money worthless, yet gold valuable? Honest question.


If i offered you a million rubles or a bar of gold on the one hand you would be a millionaire but you could only by a loaf of bread on the other hand your gold bar will as a general rule maintain its value or even.gain in value.
11:20pm 07/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1900 posts
.

If i offered you a million rubles or a bar of gold on the one hand you would be a millionaire but you could only by a loaf of bread on the other hand your gold bar will gain in value and as a general rule maintain its value or even gain in value.
Up until late 20th century Gold had a fixed price per ounce of IIRC $35.00USD which made it almost not worth mining.

Also at the peak in the last decade gold reached over $1800USD an ounce and now it's down to around $1250USD. Meaning you're statement is truly full of bollocks about gold as a minmum maintains it's value or at best increases. It actually goes up and down like any other precious metal. In other words you're so wrong it isn't funny.
11:25pm 07/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22308 posts
Also at the peak in the last decade gold reached over $1800USD an ounce and now it's down to around $1250USD. Meaning you're statement is truly full of bollocks about gold as a minmum maintains it's value or at best increases. It actually goes up and down like any other precious metal. In other words you're so wrong it isn't funny.


governments, banks and traders don't really want to rely on gold to pay for their transactions because it is heavy and inconvenient to carry around. it is much better for society when a government is responsible and its currency stable. they know that the prices they paid for essential goods will more or less be the same tomorrow and next month. citizens dont want to be bothered by a government buying up large amounts of everyday commodities with funny money to give to their soliders or public servants. traders will know that this flood of Hurricane Dollars means that someone has been printing and they will start increasing their prices. unfortunately the poor joe on main street, his wages have not gone up and so he goes hungry.

following the GFC, there was massive amounts of money printing allover the world. this is when the value of gold started to really climb. gold as a stand alone investment is not a very good plan, but it is a "hedge" i.e. when other markets are falling (currencies, stocks, real estate), gold will be climbing because it is the ultimate safe haven: it is liquid (easily sold), transportable (although this is difficult, real estate is not transportable) and real (i.e. not subject to government rule changes).

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/The-Price-Of-Gold.png
11:50pm 07/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1612 posts

Good thing we sold our gold off back when the best treasurer ever was in charge.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/reserve-banks-gold-sale-cost-us-5bn/story-e6frg6nf-1225985231872

The RBA's sales pushed the world gold price down to an 11-year low, returning just $2.4bn for the gold that was sold via a single broker engaged without a tender.

The same amount of gold would be worth about $7.4bn today.

The decision to sell the reserves was approved by then RBA governor Ian Macfarlane and then treasurer Peter Costello.


Clearly the Liberals are economic wizards! We can trust them to balance the budget.


10:11am 08/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4299 posts


This explains the rort of money, only need to watch the first 20 mins
11:24am 08/02/15 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2621 posts
Why do people have such a hard on for a surplus. IIRC we have only had a surplus a handful of times in this countries history. And our economy has gone along just fine. I feel this surplus idea was cooked up by Howard to justify selling off state assets.

As long as the state is investing in decent infrastructure what's the problem? Labor had good policies there (NBN, Gonski, etc) while LNP have literally nothing. Roads? Great! Hell in Vic here they f***ed us over with the East West link. Like two months before the election they signed all these contracts to bind the state to make the toll road, and now if we break the contract we have to pay 1.1billion in compensation.

That was reckless and selfish of the LNP. Public opinion was against the toll road and a main part of the election was that toll road. I have no idea how this makes the LNP anything but economically retarded.
11:40am 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22310 posts
As long as the state is investing in decent infrastructure what's the problem?


how do you think government spending is paid for? do they just issue as many Hurricane Dollars as needed? government spends dollars it obtains from its citizens. you can't spend something you don't have.
12:19pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4300 posts
Infi do you obtain business loans? Do you have credit cards? A mortgage?
Same principle. Borrowing money is the norm to obtain capital. Use said capital to pay back the debt.
The country has plenty enough revenue and room for more taxation on big business to continue our "welfare state" as you put it.
12:35pm 08/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11540 posts
How can you post that video and still think like that ?

If every Country did what you want to do what do you think would happen when they wanted to trade ?

The World must have some kind of mutually agreeable currency to trade in.
Hurricane dollars have no value in InfiLand.
You would have to convince Infi that your Dollar is worth something.
It may as well be toilet paper.

12:49pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4301 posts
Because that's how this system operates. Theres no such thing as money existing without debt, as that video shows.
So i'll live by this system until something better comes along.
01:03pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16911 posts

Same principle. Borrowing money is the norm to obtain capital.


I would argue that borrowing money is the norm to obtain capital that is used to build an income with a level of risk.
The more money you borrow, the greater that risk and in turn the potential amount of income should compensate for that risk.
The more your country borrows, the greater the risk that you f*** up.


This implies that it is OK to have s*** loads of debt, provided that the income you generate from that debt is quite high. Also, generally when your risk is high the income you get is choppy as hell, it moves around a lot. Sometimes you get lots, sometimes you are in negative.

So the question you must ask, is the amount of debt a country in, worth the risk that they generate negative income for too long and screw up the country for many years to come?

To answer that you need to know all the sorts of things the country has invested that debt into and how well that is paying off and how likely it is to fail.

The NBN for instance is very expensive, we are dumping ALOT of money into, borrowed money. The payoff is so far in the future that it has a lot of inherent risk to it, modelling suggests it will pay itself off.

Borrowing money to fund welfare again does have a certain amount of return. Those on welfare can get a leg up to earn money later on and pay taxes, probably more than the total amount of welfare spent on them. There is a risk involved that X amount of people don't get off welfare and never pay it back. So while it is OK to borrow money to pay for welfare you want to manage the risk of no-payback to make it net positive.

I'm rambling, it makes sense in my head, but probably not enough to write it down.
01:29pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16912 posts
Other countries will look at your country and assess it's general level of economy, the risk's they are taking and their current debt level. If they see a country to be throwing money around in a very risky way and generally making poor economical decisions (high debt, high risk, low payback) they will value your currency quite badly. Oh and it's not just other countries, it's also mega-rich institutions.
01:30pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4302 posts
The NBN was a sound investment as we know our copper is pretty poor quality, it's basically the replacement of the phone line. There's no budget emergency in Australia. A surplus is nice, but not necessary at all for a healthy economy.

Infi/brool love to parrot the LNP line that we're in a s***load of debt, we simply are not. We chose to go into debt to prevent a potential economic crisis in 2008. That investment was definitely worth the risk.
Do nothing, and see what happens? Or pump money into the economy, I'd always choose the latter.
01:53pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1553 posts
The more money you borrow, the greater that risk


Thats pretty much the nub of the whole problem. The issue with debt for government, is that they take a risk on money which is coercively taken from people.

The tax base *must* give up their money but have only the most marginal say in the risks that get taken with it.

The trouble is that cohesive society is impossible without doing it. Even the most minimal government will still have to coerce money to offer services. Even infi wouldn't be able to get by without some basic notion of contract enforceability.

I'd agree that achieving surplus year in year out is an insane economic goal to be working towards. It pretty much means you've coerced more money then you needed to. Doesn't follow from that prudent debt management isn't a desirable policy goal.
02:04pm 08/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1179 posts
I'm flying back from Sydney, just attended a conference that Tony Sheppard(comminisioner of audit) was speaking at. Holy s*** Australja is screwed.

He whipped out the cold hard facts and figures eg; Australia''s 15 most expensive gov programs are growing by 6.9% each year despite GDP growth etc being way lower than that. It's even more depressing that the current gov has ignored him and labor don't acknowledge the problem exists.

He is also touched on how retarded European countries are where the population think austerity is some sort of optional thing you can vote on and if you vote against it things can just continue on and a magic pudding exists that will fund the state. This is how Australians think now and he said that Australia is in real trouble, even if the government immediately followed what his independent panel recommended, it would take a decade to reach a surplus and many decades to pay off the debt
02:41pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22311 posts
Australia''s 15 most expensive gov programs are growing by 6.9% each year despite GDP growth etc being way lower than that.


That's Australia's problem which Vash cannot comprehend. Whilst our public debt may be relatively low the fact is that it is growing rapidly to fund welfare and social programs and there is no strategy to stop the debt growing from the ALP. The current government whilst making modest cuts have had key planks of their budget blocked and so the spending continues.

Australians expect their handouts/freebies and screw the budget to get them. This is the way Australia has become, in the Italian/Greek/Spain model. Now we just need to elect an extreme left government and walk away from all of our debt obligations and all our problems will be solved?
02:48pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1554 posts
I think the solar panel rebate thingy is still going.


it sure is i have just this week installed solar across my businesses and at home.
Australians expect their handouts/freebies and screw the budget to get them.


some people might view it a tad hypocritical if you availed yourself of that sweet sweet government titty infi.
02:57pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22312 posts
it's legal isn't it? i (and my organisations) have paid the taxes. everyone is able to organise themselves within the legal frameworks to legitimately minimise their tax obligations and access available benefits. there is no ethics in taxation returns.

why would i leave the money with the government, they will just waste it on some other boondoggle.
03:02pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1555 posts
I didn't suggest it was illegal or, if you read carefully, you actually took the rebate (though I think that inference may now be ligit).

However a rebate is pretty clear cut case of a government handout. The money is no longer available to fix our budget crisis that much is certain. I hope you enjoy your solar panels as we inevitably become Greece, assured in the knowledge there was nothing you could do.
03:07pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22313 posts
i did everything i was legally obligated to do, taxation is not about charity or morality. the tax laws for all taxpayers must be fixed and solar rebates scrapped. in the meantime, i suggest you get your solar system in.
03:12pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1556 posts
I might direct counsel to the following statement
Australians expect their handouts/freebies and screw the budget to get them.


Gees it'd suck if we became Greece cause no one went beyond their minimum legal obligations. Just awful.
03:13pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22314 posts
Are you suggesting taxpayers should donate to the government?
03:15pm 08/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7075 posts
It's like the negative gearing rort on property investing.

Morally, everyone knows it's not a good idea long term as it is artificially pumping up the price of basic housing and rents. But, seeing that everyone else is doing it ... f***'em!
Get your snout in the trough like everyone else... I know I would if I could afford too.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 15:40:28 08/Feb/15
03:38pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1557 posts
Are you suggesting taxpayers should donate to the government?


Are you suggesting people shouldn't claim their entitlements?

cause this:
Australians expect their handouts/freebies and screw the budget to get them.


Kinda looks you are.
03:57pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22315 posts
I am suggesting everyone is entitled to access benefits that are currently available under the law. It is the law that needs to change, instead of accusing anyone who ever accessed a solar rebate or childcare rebate of being selfish.

Kinda looks you are.


I hold no expectation of a rebate. And I would not have batted an eyelid if they cancelled it.

- Put a $7 price signal on medicare to stop people going to the doctors unnecessarily;
- Ask Uni students to pay for half their uni degree, and allow them to put the whole bill on a govt loan;
- Means test childcare rebate, maternity leave
etc etc etc

and the whole world loses its mind.
04:18pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1558 posts
I didn't accuse of you being selfish infi.

I just said that if you took the rebate, one might see it as hypocritical (as distinct from selfish) to say that people going to the doctor and claiming their medicare entitlements are doing it to:
screw the budget to get them.


I for one commend your decisive leadership on entering the renewable energy sector at a time of such uncertainty.

Just be shame if we became Greece is all.
04:29pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16913 posts

I am suggesting everyone is entitled to access benefits that are currently available under the law. It is the law that needs to change, instead of accusing anyone who ever accessed a solar rebate or childcare rebate of being selfish.


So why do you talk down on people that receive 'handouts' as you put it, those on welfare? They are just doing exactly what you are doing.

So I take it, from this point onwards you will no longer talk down on people that receive welfare?
04:49pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16914 posts

- Put a $7 price signal on medicare to stop people going to the doctors unnecessarily;


What do you claim as an unnecessary visit to the doctor? Does the entire population need to have a basic understanding on physiology so they can deem if a trip to the doctor is necessary or not?

Call it a 'price signal', it is a doctor tax.
04:53pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22316 posts
I don't talk down people who use welfare. I talk down our welfare state.
05:00pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1559 posts
except for those s*** eating c**** that do it just to f*** the budget up. Screw those guys AMIRITE
05:05pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16915 posts
Yeah, I think you do. If I remember, I'll point it out when you do it.
05:12pm 08/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2125 posts



how do you think government spending is paid for? do they just issue as many Hurricane Dollars as needed? government spends dollars it obtains from its citizens. you can't spend something you don't have.


Complete and utter bulls***.



That's Australia's problem which Vash cannot comprehend. Whilst our public debt may be relatively low the fact is that it is growing rapidly to fund welfare and social programs and there is no strategy to stop the debt growing from the ALP. The current government whilst making modest cuts have had key planks of their budget blocked and so the spending continues.

Australians expect their handouts/freebies and screw the budget to get them. This is the way Australia has become, in the Italian/Greek/Spain model. Now we just need to elect an extreme left government and walk away from all of our debt obligations and all our problems will be solved?


What is the difference between Italy/Greece/Spain and Australia..



Three of them joined the Euro and now have German/France in charge. The other doesn't.

This is where infi fails with everything he speaks about economics...he just doesn't understand where the money comes from or how it is generated.

This will allow you understand how it all works. Just replace US for Australia as our system is the same, with different names. I'd suggest you only read up to section III (pg 97) as it's his politics after that.

http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
05:25pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22317 posts


Complete and utter bulls***.


so then we don't need any taxes at all? government can just pay for everything with Hurricane Dollars. Cool.

except for those s*** eating c**** that do it just to f*** the budget up. Screw those guys AMIRITE


i like it when people try to imply that Aussies don't enjoy a good handout.
05:33pm 08/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2126 posts
so then we don't need any taxes at all? government can just pay for everything with Hurricane Dollars. Cool.


Federal government spending is in no case operationally constrained by revenues, meaning that there is no “solvency risk.” In other words, the federal government can always make any and all payments in its own currency, no matter how large the deficit is, or how few taxes it collects.

Taxation is the method a government uses to curb demand


Or yeah d******* you're totally full of s***
05:39pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4911 posts
Call me crazy but isnt selling off profitable public assets kind of contrary to a government b****ing oh no the sky is falling we cant fund stuff? If youre worried about future revenue why would you sell off anything that will make you money going forward?

If i wanted to get a quick buck i wouldnt sell the car i need to get to work.
05:41pm 08/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24864 posts
Nothing quite like watching infi fret and flounder (and lie) when his hypocrisy is pointed out. Except maybe for watching brool pretend that he has actually left his basement.
05:48pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22318 posts
there's no need to lie, when i'm right. lying takes too much effort. 100% proud and legal. we don't know anything about fpot, just a seagull.
05:51pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
234 posts
It seems easy for people to attack so-called 'welfare', meaning something usually funded by the government or public wealth. But why not try and justify the ridiculous wealth of a few? Let's say, the top 1.5%.

When you break it all down it's actually pretty simple - the reason why we accept such concentrations of wealth is that it must ultimately be beneficial for all in society.

I happen to distantly know a successful corporate lawyer on about $1000p/h, so tomorrow I'm going to thank him for being born into a very wealthy and stable home that could support him through his top level uni degree, as well as being born with an intelligence level slightly above average, and also for being raised as a sociopath (he's a corporate lawyer after all- let's not be too PC here).

and then I'm going to thank my landlord for the exponential increase in value of the property i pay half my wage just to be allowed to reside in temporarily, as well as the other 43 properties that he has allowed to increase in value.

Remember, such increases are only made possible by a relative increase in homelessness, so it's not like my landlord has done nothing while his wealth increased exponentially, he's had to endure the misery of others.
06:10pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16916 posts

make any and all payments in its own currency, no matter how large the deficit is, or how few taxes it collects.


With the exception being that if you continue to make your payments by printing more and more cash, you Hurricane $'s will be worth less and less. This then causes your entire population's buying power to be reduced, in effect you make them work more for the same, or work the same for less.

So yes, we can let the deficit go on, and we can watch as the buying power of our AUD reduces further. On top of that, we get to watch as our access for cheap credit gets reduced, further causing our future to have to work harder for less.


At least it makes our labor cheaper on international standards, that will help employment wise. Infi must be happy with that part.





raised as a sociopath


It's debatable if being a sociopath is nurture or nature.
06:26pm 08/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24865 posts
I don't talk down people who use welfare.
That's a recent lie. A historical lie is where you spent months maybe even a year denying you called the middle-eastern culture savage even when it was typed out in blue and white on this very forum. You're a liar and a bad one at that.
06:29pm 08/02/15 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2622 posts


how do you think government spending is paid for? do they just issue as many Hurricane Dollars as needed? government spends dollars it obtains from its citizens. you can't spend something you don't have.


Do you understand that a budget and economy of a state is not the same as a household budget? Having a deficit isn't bad. Like I said, most of this country's history has been in a deficit. It is only really since Howard that people have a hardon for surplus.

Generally a deficit is fine. If a country's economy is stable (like ours was) it is an indication that it is investing in to infrastructure.

However infi, you are impossible to discuss this stuff with. You love your libertarian ideas that would not work in the real world.
06:31pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22319 posts
At least it makes our labor cheaper on international standards, that will help employment wise. Infi must be happy with that part.


no because it still isn't making our internal economy efficient. labor regulation harms productivity and letting the currency devalue in response just lowers our standard of living.

That's a recent lie. A historical lie is where you spent months maybe even a year denying you called the middle-eastern culture savage even when it was typed out in blue and white on this very forum. You're a liar and a bad one at that.


nope and nope. people are entitled to access welfare in the rules prescribed. it is the rules of our welfare state which needs to change.

i have never made reference to the middle east being cultural savages. i have made reference to the act of executing a local afghan police officer by RPG as an act of savages.

nice try deflecting from the issues though!

Generally a deficit is fine.


why is it fine? is it ok to borrow money to fund operating expenses?
06:36pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4303 posts
Capitalism embraces psychopaths such as infi unfortunately.

Mentioned in this great Q&A episode.

06:40pm 08/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24867 posts
i have never made reference to the middle east being cultural savages
hehe, man you're pathetic. I'm not even going to bother posting the quote. Everyone knows you're a liar now I don't need to prove anything.
06:56pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1615 posts
How about we get rid of negative gearing?

FFS.

Not being able to afford housing is ridiculous.

Labour costs would go down if our housing wasn't so f*****g ridiculous and we could compete in the export market.
07:33pm 08/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7076 posts
^ Won't happen.

Too many Mum and Dad investors with their snouts in the trough.

Both sides of Politics are spineless when it comes to Negative Gearing. Also, most pollies have an Investment Property or three.

I lost all respect for that Xenophone tool when it was made public that the c*** had 4-5 Investment Properties while he was wailing that First Home Buyers should be able to use their superannuation for a First Home deposit!!!



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:24:09 08/Feb/15
09:21pm 08/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16917 posts
There is an argument that negative gearing helps keep rent prices down, at least in part.
To abolish negative gearing may lead to an increase in rent prices. Do you want to hit the poorer end of town again?
09:29pm 08/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2127 posts

With the exception being that if you continue to make your payments by printing more and more cash, you Hurricane $'s will be worth less and less. This then causes your entire population's buying power to be reduced, in effect you make them work more for the same, or work the same for less.

So yes, we can let the deficit go on, and we can watch as the buying power of our AUD reduces further. On top of that, we get to watch as our access for cheap credit gets reduced, further causing our future to have to work harder for less.


At least it makes our labor cheaper on international standards, that will help employment wise. Infi must be happy with that part.


Increasing the flow of money into the economy causes demand therefore increasing GDP and inflation. The federal government taxes to regulate what economists call "aggregate demand" which is a fancy word for "spending power". In short, that means that if the economy is too hot, then raising taxes will cool it down, and if it's too cold, likewise, cutting taxes will warm it up. Taxes aren't about getting money to spend, they are about regulating our spending power to make sure we don't have too much and cause inflation, or too little which causes unemployment and recessions.

It doesn't devalue the currency. Remember before Abbott got in our Dollar was where? Wasn't there a MASSIVE DEFICIT then? The RBA's Monetary policy decisions are expressed in terms of a target for the cash rate, which is the overnight money market interest rate. In other words what interest banks can charge each other. So with high interest rate you end up with a high dollar when compared to other countries such as the USA who went into recession following the GFC. Now that the US economy is recovering and our interest rate is going down net result lower exchange rate.

Of course a lower exchange rate is good if you actually manufacture something for export but Australia is mostly a primary producer for export, no value adding.

http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Please do take some time and read the above PDF. It's quite an easy read though for some bloody hard to comprehend.
09:30pm 08/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2128 posts
There is an argument that negative gearing helps keep rent prices down, at least in part.
To abolish negative gearing may lead to an increase in rent prices. Do you want to hit the poorer end of town again?


The poor don't rent those properties.
09:35pm 08/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7077 posts
There is an argument that negative gearing helps keep rent prices down, at least in part.
To abolish negative gearing may lead to an increase in rent prices. Do you want to hit the poorer end of town again?


Poor people have to rent because Property Investors outbid them for basic homes and apartments.

10:26pm 08/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22321 posts
Please do take some time and read the above PDF. It's quite an easy read though for some bloody hard to comprehend.


I read the booklet. This guy's writings are straight out Voodoo Economics.

Fact:
Federal government spending is in no case operationally constrained by revenues, meaning that there is no “solvency risk.” In other words, the federal government can always make any and all payments in its own currency, no matter how large the deficit is, or how few taxes it collects.


The only people obligated to accept sovereign currency as payment are local residents and lenders who bought bonds in the sovereign currency.

When a currency becomes extremely devalued due to hyper-inflation (Argentina) or unstable sovereign risk (Russia) - local residents and local currency lenders are obligated to accept this worthless paper. However lenders and manufacturers are not stupid.

Sellers of goods create a secondary market which only accepts a stable currency like US dollars as payment. This is also common in Zimbabwe. All foreign workers expect to be paid in the stable currency. Anyone with any bargaining power will refuse to accept the worthless local paper. Pushing paper on a string does not make the government wealthier - it's just paper backed by nothing.

So in order for the Banana republic to get money to buy foreign goods they issue higher interest rates on their bonds which is like chasing ones own tail because the inflation will inevitably be higher than the interest rate. The only way the Banana republic will stabilise their currency is to produce something in turn which is desirable to other countries and makes them want to obtain some Hurricane dollars.

A government borrowing in its own currency need never default on its debts;


Smart lenders will only lend in their own or a third party stable currency. When the Banana republic issuing Hurricane dollars goes to repay their international loans they will have to issue many times more Hurricane dollars than when they originally borrowed because what foreign lender wants Hurricane dollars anyway.

Suggesting free handouts of money to all and sundry. If everyone was given an iPhone or a Bentley, they would no longer be cool. And neither would free money - it would be worthless.

Warren Mosler is either a con-artist or a fool. His book reads like a One Nation policy manual.
11:22pm 08/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1560 posts
couldn't help myself

i like it when people try to imply that Aussies don't enjoy a good handout.

I think the solar panel rebate thingy is still going.

it sure is i have just this week installed solar across my businesses and at home.
08:10am 09/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16918 posts

It doesn't devalue the currency. Remember before Abbott got in our Dollar was where? Wasn't there a MASSIVE DEFICIT then?


That was a temporary spike in the AUD, mostly due to our relatively high interest rates compared to the rest of the world allowing for a tidy Carry Trade with a relatively stable currency that well and truly signaled when the carry trade wold come to a close, our reserve bank is nice like that. So you can understand why the reserve bank was saying our dollar is way overvalued, a few clicks of the interest rate dial by the reserve bank has brought it back down to normal levels, probably with a bit more to go.

There was no-way our dollar would stay that high for long, it was a prime example of a short trade in the AUD/USD that would be hard to lose money on.



08:46am 09/02/15 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2487 posts
61 votes for - 39 against.
09:23am 09/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7078 posts
The real reason why we are where we are:

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/02/fault-paul-kelly/
09:30am 09/02/15 Permalink
Arpey
New South Wales
99 posts
61 votes for - 39 against.

GG Libs, you managed to back down from saving your government.

Enjoy the landslide Labor victory at the next election unless you can engineer a war.
09:54am 09/02/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14351 posts

GG Libs, you managed to back down from saving your government.

Enjoy the landslide Labor victory at the next election unless you can engineer a war.

This is a far better outcome. The public hate him, 40% of his party hate him, and he has no where to go now. One more f*** up and he's gone, easily.
11:05am 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15846 posts
GG Libs, you managed to back down from saving your government.

Enjoy the landslide Labor victory at the next election unless you can engineer a war.

2/3 the back bench voted for a spill. Ministers and whips had to toe the line, basically.

Tone is officially f***ed, the spill didn't happen but he can't survive the implicit vote of no confidence from his party that just happened, anything over 20 votes was going to spear him, and he copped 39 for spill.

Its just a question of how and when.
11:07am 09/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1616 posts
Tone vs no one.

39 votes for no one.

So many lols.
11:11am 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15847 posts
inorite lolol
11:38am 09/02/15 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2488 posts
Tone vs no one.

39 votes for no one.

So many lols.


Not really. Turnbull wasn't going to prematurely put his hand up and risk losing his job. He played a good hand - let the spill go ahead without a clear leader, watch the results. The spill was likely to go in Abbott's favor but demonstrate the dire straights he is in.

Now all he needs to do is wait for a couple more slip ups - NSW state election results, the next budget or Abbotts next bats*** idea - and the backbench will do the rest.
11:41am 09/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20420 posts
we should knight the queen
11:53am 09/02/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6663 posts
Can't the queen just knight her own god-damn self? Do we have to do everything?
12:14pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15848 posts
Not really.

I think the lol was that 39 Liberal MPs voted against Tone when there is nobody else to vote for..
12:14pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22322 posts
The top order should be Blokes and Sheilas and the first two recipients should be Boonie and Ita Butrose.

They were voting for a spill of positions and everyone knew Malcolm was ringing around.
12:17pm 09/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2129 posts
Suggesting free handouts of money to all and sundry. If everyone was given an iPhone or a Bentley, they would no longer be cool. And neither would free money - it would be worthless.


When or where have I ever suggested free handouts of money?

Warren Mosler is either a con-artist or a fool.


Who has made millions over a long time legally and who figured out that, for the most part, that politicians know as much about economics as you do

His book reads like a One Nation policy manual.


You've read their policy manual?
12:59pm 09/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1180 posts
The the top order should be called Dazza and Sharons, and should only be given to Aussies, no bloody foreigners mate. What has he ever done for Aussie mate? A patron of over 800 charities for the past 62 years, he does s*** all mate.
01:00pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1561 posts
A patron of over 800 charities for the past 62 years, he does s*** all mate.


Oh the lols don't ever have to end.
01:05pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15849 posts
Christ ... he just defended the Knighthood, didn't he?
01:08pm 09/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20421 posts
he just defended the Australian knighthood of a British prince

haha lols
01:10pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22323 posts
Warren Mosler is either a con-artist or a fool.


Who has made millions over a long time legally and who figured out that, for the most part, that politicians know as much about economics as you do


i don't know why you worship this quack but if you google around, the criticism of his pre-school level economic theory is plentiful.
01:13pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1562 posts
Fpot its time to come clean man. Brool is a sock puppet isn't he. I won't be angry, just impressed.
01:21pm 09/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20422 posts
i'd bow down and praise you are the master if that were true Fpot
01:26pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22324 posts
brool is an intelligent computer program which has passed the Turing Test.
01:46pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1563 posts
brool has passed the Turing Test.


Adjusted for accuracy
01:54pm 09/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11543 posts
The Party decided that Nobody was a better choice than Turnbull.
Its time for Turnbull to go back on to Q&A and talk about himself to those who care.

01:59pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15851 posts

In other news, do we have a f*****g QLD Gubment yet or wot?

I see that the ABC has the ALP at 44? http://www.abc.net.au/news/qld-election-2015/results/

So with the indie already declared for them, if this is true they won't need to dance for Katter?


02:18pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22325 posts
Of the 44 one is Ferny Grove which is in dispute.
02:25pm 09/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24870 posts
Fpot its time to come clean man. Brool is a sock puppet isn't he. I won't be angry, just impressed.
Nah but sometimes I find myself on my knees thanking god we have access to him and his dementia. We should all be thankful really. He's a true one of a kind gronk.
02:37pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15852 posts
Of the 44 one is Ferny Grove which is in dispute.

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

- The result will be declared shortly. It looks like Mark Furner will win.
- If so, he will be sworn in with the other Members, and the ALP will have 44 members + the support of an independent.

There is a pending potential by election however, which will be determined by a court case AFTER the result is declared by the AEC. The Member for Ferny Grove will take a seat in the House though.

If the ALP has the support of 45 sworn in members, why shouldn't the Governor issue the writs? Am I missing something? What will the House do when it sits if its still in caretaker mode?
02:51pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22326 posts
it would be silly to appoint a government knowing full well that a by-election is very likely to be ordered and a very real possibility of the seat outcome changing. Better to leave the caretaker government in place before they get all their shiny new cabinet appointments and stationery knocked out.
02:59pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15853 posts
I don't know about silly, what's the law?

S*** matters. Should an unresolved legal matter delay the appointment of a Government that has the requisite seats?
03:11pm 09/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20423 posts
ALP would be keen as to get in knowing there was a bi-election, give the voters more reason just to vote labor in and be done with it
03:15pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22327 posts
I don't know about silly, what's the law?

S*** matters. Should an unresolved legal matter delay the appointment of a Government that has the requisite seats?


the law is that the governor decides.... afaik
03:15pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1564 posts
the law is that the governor decides.... afaik


Pretty sure this is right.
03:17pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22328 posts


the law is that the governor decides.... afaik


to clarify

seciton 15 of the Queensland Constitution Act 2001 says

15 Summoning, proroguing and dissolving the Legislative Assembly

(1) The Governor may summon the Legislative Assembly in the Sovereign’s name by instrument under the Public Seal of the State.


It is a general power.
03:26pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2742 posts
ALP would be keen as to get in knowing there was a bi-election, give the voters more reason just to vote labor in and be done with it

Bi-elections rarely favour the government in power.

Also considering many of their cabinet would have never been in politics before or have been out of the game for at least 3 years so they won't be doing a whole lot soon until they all get settled in and come up with a plan.

last edited by Dodgymon at 15:44:23 09/Feb/15
03:41pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
923 posts
There is precedent for it. The ABC's Antony Green listed it on his blog.
And yes, the person that the ECQ returns as the winner of Ferny Grove will take the seat and be treated the same as every other member while challenges are heard until such time as a by-election is called etc.
03:48pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2743 posts
Also a sad day for Team Turnbul. Tone is going to get removed and I was hoping it would sooner rather than later. It is impossible for him to turn the ship around as he isn't capable (he's no Howard).
03:53pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1565 posts
well its interesting that the remora of LNP politics mathias cormann drew parallels between now and july 2001 this morning. I think a fair assessment would be that Abbott would have been kissed on the d*** by a fairy if another tampa situation occurred. Particularly so, as he made it a campaign issue to ensure another tampa couldn't happen.
04:00pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15855 posts

There is precedent for it. The ABC's Antony Green listed it on his blog.
And yes, the person that the ECQ returns as the winner of Ferny Grove will take the seat and be treated the same as every other member while challenges are heard until such time as a by-election is called etc.

This seems reasonable to me. A sitting Government is not brought down by legal proceedings against a Member until a legal result is achieved.

Same deal should apply, would would be silly is leaving the state in caretaker mode for possibly months when there is a legal and valid majority Government sitting in the House.

Nice link btw http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2015/02/the-impact-of-ferny-grove-on-forming-government-in-queensland.html#more
the mere fact that a losing candidate was disqualified – or committed irregularities not affecting the result – is not ground for invalidating an election

Bi-election is not a foregone conclusion, some pretty analysis of the election results will be required and argued, so it won't be resolved quickly.
05:13pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1567 posts
I think the better analysis hoggy would be that the "sitting Government" is campbells. If it takes months for labor to get the numbers then it takes months.

I am saying this:

Infi's analysis is correct.

Appointing a government that doesn't incontrovertibly have the peoples consent would be the wrong move.
05:17pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1568 posts
I still find it hysterical that he will take government handouts while bemoaning the federal budgetary position.
05:19pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15856 posts
Pete - the sitting Government is in caretaker mode. This isn't a particularly useful state to leave the place in for likely months while the legal eagles battle it out!

It needs to be legally argued whether the result is valid, but the result is known and will be declared by the ECQ and the Member sworn in. If you read the article I posted (thanks Rukh) you'll see that a bi-election is not a foregone conclusion. The challenger needs to demonstrate that the outcome was prejudiced, not just that the candidate was not fit to stand.

The precedent (Australia and nation-wide) is clearly to proceed with the appointment of Government based on the Members present and to deal with challenges to this after the fact.

Also: surely we have the power to check this s*** properly in 2015 before the election?
05:26pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22329 posts
I still find it hysterical that he will take government handouts while bemoaning the federal budgetary position.


Because every person is entitled to conduct themselves lawfully. Should people philosophically opposed to certain government policies be morally obligated to refrain from claiming childcare rebate, private health insurance rebate, paid maternity leave, family tax b anything else on the go?

I don't even know what you are suggesting the alternative conduct should be... just don't claim it... to be honourable?
05:27pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1569 posts
Hoggy I don't deny that uncertainty doesn't flow from an inconclusive ballot. Merely that Campbell's caretaker status is not an affront to democracy. We of the legal trade know our place, better I might say than most.

Yes we can't get on. No you can't blame that on the LNP. Democracy is a messy affair, we all knew that going in.
05:30pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15857 posts
Its not about being obliged to do anything infi, its about the in-congruence.

You don't get a free pass to rage about waste and people being addicted to handouts and then spruik them without raising eyebrows and being called on it. Your philosophical position and your actions are in conflict, how you resolve that dissonance (acting directly contrary to your apparently strongly held convictions) is up to you, but people are entitled to remark on it because its real.
Hoggy I don't deny that uncertainty doesn't flow from an inconclusive ballot. Merely that Campbell's caretaker status is not an affront to democracy.

Never said it was, just that the convention and precedent re. the issue seems to be clear?

Although thinking about it from the perspective of good democracy, Campbell was dismissed by his own electorate! He won't even be a Member when the House is sworn in o.O I think it would be a lesser evil to appoint the new House's Government than leave Newman as Premier indefinitely after he was so very thoroughly dismissed from office...
05:32pm 09/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1570 posts
infi:

My position is absolutely clear. Take your entitlements. Take them without any ethical dilemma. I really do hope you enjoy your solar panels.

You don't get to then say other people are doing it to f*** up the budgetary position.

IF AND ONLY IF you ethical position is entirely independent of where the legal balance currently lies you are entitled to be critical of others taking different entitlements.

by taking the solar rebate your're not IN PRINCIPLE opposed to government handouts, merely when certain idiosyncratic preconditions are met are you upset about them. A solar rebate is in no way tied to your contribution to the economy. It is a clear cut incontrovertible case of you taking a government handout, the threshold for inclusion is eligibility for payment of income tax.

Enjoy your solar panels. you did good, you weren't selfish. It was a display of the entrepreneurial spirit that made Australia, nay the western world, great. maybe you will make money maybe you won't.

Get in there son. I'll be right behind you.
05:39pm 09/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24871 posts
There's also that time infi was gifted an extremely lucrative deal that benefited his dad's aged care business while his known to be corrupt mate Santo Santoro was aged care minister. I still bemoan the fact I'll never get to hear the angry phone call your corrupt mate Santo gave you after you said you'd 'hit the jackpot' on social media.

edit: of course I only keep bringing this up because there aren't any articles floating around out there about me being a morally bankrupt, corrupt, government handout accepting s***bird. That's a thing infi has actually proposed.
05:58pm 09/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24872 posts
I don't even know what you are suggesting the alternative conduct should be... just don't claim it... to be honourable?
Isn't this one of the basic tenants of your lolbertarianism? That government rules and regulations can practically be abolished and that taxes can be drastically cut because in a free market system people will act honourably and safely and will make up the tax shortfall through voluntary donations?
06:30pm 09/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22330 posts
Isn't this one of the basic tenants of your lolbertarianism? That government rules and regulations can practically be abolished and that taxes can be drastically cut because in a free market system people will act honourably and safely and will make up the tax shortfall through voluntary donations?


yes, when the tax impost is negligible and individuals are free to organise themselves away from govt regulation or interference. that will never happen any time soon in the Nanny State.

when one's hard earned dollars are being siphoned away through state sanctioned theft, it is one's duty to recover as much of it as possible through the laws of the land.

p.s. falsely accusing an individual by name of illegal behaviour is defamatory and could get you sued. luckily you're a nobody with no money and not worth suing.
06:53pm 09/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24873 posts
lolbertarian.txt. Old skool.

p.s. falsely accusing an individual by name of illegal behaviour is defamatory and could get you sued. luckily you're a nobody with no money and not worth suing.
You know who isn't a nobody and does have money? The news organisations that accused you. The reason you didn't take any action against them is because you want as little attention as possible because the allegations are true. You're a slimy, dishonest piece of s*** and you're capable of much worse than what the newspapers printed about you.

edit:
p.s. falsely accusing an individual by name of illegal behaviour is defamatory
Also in writing isn't it libel?
07:06pm 09/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2130 posts


i don't know why you worship this quack but if you google around, the criticism of his pre-school level economic theory is plentiful.


I get my references from Economics Professors like Bill Mitchell.
07:32pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4306 posts
Just learned that Whitlam had planned to Nationalise our mines. to think i already thought he was a great PM, he may have been our best ever.
The money this country would have made a year if we went through with that would be over $100B a year.
Stupid right leaning people who are completely retarded at economics.
09:51pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
924 posts
Much like how every citizen in Norway is effectively rich because they nationalised their oil industry. And in return they enjoy a very high standard of living (albeit with not much in the way of beaches ;)
11:11pm 09/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4308 posts
We'd literally be a more awesome version of Norway if we adopted their policies.
11:13pm 09/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11545 posts
Alan Jones on Q&A tonight was awesome.

12:23am 10/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1903 posts
Alan Jones on Q&A tonight was awesome.

Did he finally own up to all the kiddy fiddling he did while teaching in Queensland? I guess that would of been awesome.
01:45am 10/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4309 posts
Corinne Grant was far better imo, she's on the ball.
02:16am 10/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1181 posts
Alan DOESNT even try to hide his left wing bias these days it's so funny to watch
02:23am 10/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1904 posts
Alan DOESNT even try to hide his left wing bias these days it's so funny to watch
Does your mum know you've been sniffing petrol again?
02:37am 10/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16919 posts

Should people philosophically opposed to certain government policies be morally obligated to refrain from claiming childcare rebate, private health insurance rebate, paid maternity leave, family tax b anything else on the go?


If those philosophical/moral judgements deem that it is bad for the economy and that people as a whole are causing it to happen then yes, people of integrity should certainly not take the handouts even though it is offered to them.



08:20am 10/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16920 posts
I suppose I should probably point out, in case it isn't obvious, that a man of upstanding integrity will starve and go broke before he compromises his core philosophies. Greed and Fear are probably the two most dangerous emotions to any persons moral fiber.
It's OK to buckle under those emotions, we are all human.

However, I thoroughly detest how MP's have the 'honorable' honorific in their title when they are clearly anything but.
08:40am 10/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7081 posts
10:02am 11/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16925 posts
See if you look back over this thread many people have said the issue with the attempted budget reforms is not that cuts are being made, it's that they are clearly not fairly spread through the economy. It is clear the less financially stable are hit the hardest.

Does the government not see that? I think they do. This what I believe the current government believes about their current budget options:

Poor people, students and pensioners don't really do anything direct for the economy, so if we mostly hit them up for the savings we need it shouldn't hurt our economy too much. We can get to surplus on the backs of those that struggle, so that those who don't can continue doing economy stuff.

They seem to have no regard for the long term social implications of hitting up the poor, students and pensioners. Make poor people struggle more? Crime will go up and settle in. Requiring more police, which in 10 years time will cost us much more. People going to the doctors less? Disease rates will go up, requiring more healthcare costs in 10 years.
Smash the pensioners? They will have less to give when they die, it will make people who are moving towards retirement save harder, less spending in economy. That will hurt over time.

However all this stuff (plus much more) wont become apparent until 10 years or so, on which things can be blamed on whatever government is in power at that time.
If trickle down economy happens, trickle up economy happens too.
10:39am 11/02/15 Permalink
zaraq
Adelaide, South Australia
447 posts
Tollaz0r!:
Poor people, students and pensioners don't really do anything direct for the economy,


In 2015 the number of people on the DSP 800,000.

One in twenty working-age Australians.

The DSP is $776.70 / fortnight.

= $612,360,000 is injected back into the economy every fortnight, their may be some room for saveing a few shekles unlikely as that is.

Go ahead and hit the disabled .
http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/printcollector/fullsize/1625401.jpg.
This is what you get.
Then you would get Sir Bob Geldof starting help the Ozzies Band Aid and Drs without borders and the United nations doing food drops.
Would you take any of these financial refugees into you're place for a feed?
12:58pm 11/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11546 posts
The rich get richer
the poor get the picture

The problem is the Middle Class wont let Government take away their handouts so Government goes after the poor. If YOU are Middle Class and taking handouts from Government YOU are to blame for the attacks on the poor/students/medicare. Only the poor need money from Government, are YOU poor ?

Im alright jack
keep your hands off my stack!
01:56pm 11/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1572 posts
WTF are you taking about faceman.

Tone said no cuts to welfare. Tone cuts welfare. People voting for someone who said he wouldn't cut welfare are to blame when he cuts welfare.
02:03pm 11/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16930 posts

= $612,360,000 is injected back into the economy every fortnight


Less the cost of administering it. I wonder how much it costs the government overall to give $612,360,000 to people. Also a portion of that money would be going overseas through on-line purchases.
04:24pm 11/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16931 posts
I also wonder how much can be saved if we just said f*** it, everyone have a basic income and nothing else.
04:26pm 11/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20430 posts
I also wonder how much can be saved if we just said f*** it, everyone have a basic income and nothing else


so then we could all just like quit work and go and learn about the arts and s***?
04:30pm 11/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1182 posts
Tone said no cuts to welfare. Tone cuts welfare.


No, no he didn't. I love when people try to makeup false "promises" The current government made it very clear they would make cuts to welfare.

I'm still waiting for them though..........
04:32pm 11/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16932 posts

so then we could all just like quit work and go and learn about the arts and s***?


Yeah if you want to live on a tiny amount, sure go ahead. Free's up jobs for people that want to earn more.
07:26pm 11/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4312 posts
Clive Palmer was surprising on Wednesday's Hack program..
Guy just got more of my respect.
01:57am 12/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16938 posts
Meanwhile in QLD. LNP trying to yoink the election is offering stuff to KAP, among them:


Some of what is on offer also corresponds with KAP policy, such as introducing a bill to mandate ethanol in fuel and refusing any new mine operation that seeks to use a 100 per cent fly-in, fly-out workforce.


There will be quite a few people that will be very upset to have ethanol in their fuel.
05:46pm 12/02/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14378 posts
Don't Labor have enough to form now with the independent? I know Ferny is up in the air but its very doubtful if it goes to by-election that LNP will win it. Surely they can at least install a government so we "have" one.

Also, another day another hilarious Abbott misstep. Man just can't stop being a buffoon.
05:54pm 12/02/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4361 posts
There will be quite a few people that will be very upset to have ethanol in their fuel.

f*** it let's just put wine in the car
06:12pm 12/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2132 posts

Don't Labor have enough to form now with the independent? I know Ferny is up in the air but its very doubtful if it goes to by-election that LNP will win it. Surely they can at least install a government so we "have" one.


Not all seats have been officially declared. In the case of Ferny, having been declared yesterday as Labor, the court might decide that even with all PUP and the Independent preferences the LNP would still lose by 188 votes. Of course there could be a problem with the courts as the judge will probably be Justice Carmody.

Also, another day another hilarious Abbott misstep. Man just can't stop being a buffoon.


"Abbott's policies have been all over the map, and the lack of coherence has often made the prime minister seem ill-informed and incapable of understanding complex policy issues"

"But a country that for decades has punched above its weight on nearly every international issue surely can do much better for a prime minister than Tony Abbott." -

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/us-think-tank-asks-is-tony-abbott-the-most-incompetent-leader-of-any-industrialised-democracy-20150211-13cda6.html

On another note:- James Ashby is up for $3 million in costs after an adverse judgement by the Federal Court in the Peter Slipper matter

https://independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/james-ashbys-3m-costs-conundrum,7364
06:15pm 12/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4315 posts
Wow, tones is blaming Labor for the unemployment rate?
Considering its risen this much only when the libs have been in, 2002 and now..
The budget is hurting the economy, and it still hasn't sunk through the libs thick skulls.
10:02pm 12/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22337 posts
yeah we're only borrowing $60b a year to pay for wealfre and social programs. really tough budgetary measures there. need more stimulus.
10:06pm 12/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1619 posts
yeah we're only borrowing $60b a year to pay for wealfre and social programs. really tough budgetary measures there. need more stimulus.


How about fixing tax?

Super concessions for the rich
Negative gearing for the rich
Car leasing for the rich
Capital gains for the rich
No tax on fuel for the rich

Fun fact unemployment hasn't been this high since tone was minister for employment.
11:06pm 12/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16939 posts

yeah we're only borrowing $60b a year to pay for wealfre and social programs


Don't forget those miner fuel subsidies. Why don't you go on about that as much as you do non-business welfare?
11:11pm 12/02/15 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10621 posts
Super concessions for the rich
Negative gearing for the rich
Car leasing for the rich
Capital gains for the rich
No tax on fuel for the rich



you missed the important one that everyone eventually seeks.


true internet anonymity.


let's just forget this and move on folks
11:50pm 12/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22338 posts
Don't forget those miner fuel subsidies. Why don't you go on about that as much as you do non-business welfare?


The cash welfare benefits paid in 2014 was about $120b and growing. The miner diesel rebate is about $2.4b.

It is a subsidy that should be cut. But those welfare numbers are enormous.
12:02am 13/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4316 posts
Welfare is a necessity for a healthy society. Our budget deficit is minuscule so a few adjustments to rich concessions will reign it in.
12:04am 13/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10359 posts
infi ... at some point will you stop being Russell Jnr and just become Russell ?

Mining Tax ... yeah lets take the brake off Gina and a bunch of Indians (Adani)... The trickle down from them will be awesome ... yeah sure

Gp-copayment ... yeah lets punch elderly and families. They are to blame. Lets not spend millions on some one we are increasing from 1 to 5 years life span.

Joe Hockey claiming the RBA dropped interest rates as a sign of the LNP competence... um no ... wee LNP know about money yeah!!!

I know lets blame Labor. Marcia Labor Marcia!
Lets blame labor for a hostile senate.

Amazingly Labor with a minority lower and hostile upper house and party room that was a Dexter episode... got way more done. How the f*** did anyone ever get the NDI up ... And we survived GFC with no recession.
LNP can't pass a budget!

Got a hostile senate? GROW A F*****G PAIR ...

Double Dissolution! It is in our constitution (unlike free speech) to prevent a lack of supply. How many triggers have the current government got? What a bunch of gutless finger pointing pussies. Despite the fact that 2 of my favorite pollies are in their team... Grow a f*****g pair!

In 30 years ... The question will be who was Australia's worst Prime Minister? McMahon or Abbott. Right now? McMahon seems competent in orders of magnatude.

Dinosaurs (and there are many on both sides on the forum) need to stop voting for a party out of duty as if the party grey men had a soul that gives a s*** about anyone other than themselves.

Because both major parties are corrupt beyond belief ... you know like when party member with influence get government grants when other projects were far better placed to produce timely outcomes...


"zomg you want labor".

No ... there is no one of leadership quality in Labor that I have seen ... I'd vote Zenaphon over the options at the moment and I am diametrically opposed to his view of the world ...


At least he can talk on the camera with out Peta having hand up his cracker (or a chicken dance) and is more honest than a second hand car sales man on the last day of the month, and he doesn't owe any one in any union (or the AMA ... Australia's most powerful industrial body (legal jumbo for union) and an LNP contributer ...)

Bring on people crossing the floor regularly and representing their constituents.
12:06am 13/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7082 posts
The mining boom is over ~ politicians and the people need to realize that.
08:41am 13/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16941 posts
Just gunna leave these here.

Chart 1: Trends in per cent of working age population receiving income support payments, Australia, 1976–2012

http://insidestory.org.au/cache/image.d5ac8c6a45f9d972438556b76dd97a5a

Chart 3: Changes in numbers of people receiving income support payments, Australia, 1996–2012

http://insidestory.org.au/cache/image.8ee11220c0f42c8a711e17767b07b34c

Chart 4: Change in number of persons sixteen and over by age, Australia, 1996–2013

http://insidestory.org.au/cache/image.57749ddfe229d1c09d09538c4d564e11


Interestingly our Pension payments, are currently the most expensive they will be for a little while, after that it will calm down. We don't have an endless supply of baby boomers..

edit: D'oh, they don't include the Titles

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:50:21 13/Feb/15
08:42am 13/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1620 posts
What about how there's not even enough jobs for everyone who would want to work?

Let's not take care of those lazy a*******s.

Edit : you know what reduces welfare? People working.

The liberal party promised more jobs, but all they've done is punished those looking for work.
09:48am 13/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22339 posts
Where do we get more jobs from? We must need more stimulus.
10:20am 13/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1621 posts
Maybe some more tax breaks for the "job creators" for some trickle down?
10:37am 13/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15870 posts
I find it curious that the Government has not managed to get its policy through the Senate, and literally blames the ALP for this.

http://i.imgur.com/MF2g8G6.png

The Government needs to convince 6 Senators that their legislation is solid. There are 18 (!) crossbenchers, 8 excluding the Greens. A Senate majority is actually an unlikely thing for most Australian Governments, and the need to work with crossbench Senators is a normal and regular part of Tone's "horse trading". Labor did this with the Carbon Tax - they copped a f*****g hiding for it, but it shored up the support of the Greens in the Senate and established the basis for securing their legislative agenda.

Howard did it when he courted the Democrats and got the GST through.

The fact is that instead of reviewing policy to make it palatable to the political environment, the Government has stuck its hands in its ears and declared 'la la la la this is the only way we can fix the budget the debt is not our fault it you won't do what we say'. The fact is that there is no mandate for the policies they are trying to implement as they are actually directly contrary to statements made prior to the election. The fact is that Tone threatened a double dissolution to get their agenda through, and backed down when the Coalition's support collapsed.

Surely legislative impotence is the literal definition of bad Government?
11:45am 13/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15871 posts
A trillion dollar debt is indeed an emergency.

The potential for a trillion dollar debt is a problem.
12:48pm 13/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22340 posts
01:55pm 13/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4318 posts
Haha it's hilarious they absolve all responsibility for the debt increasing simply because it originated from a Labor government trying to save the economy. Funny how they're quiet about the necessity of that.
Yet here we are again, unemployment rising, no mining boom to make the libs look good this time. Double deficit, Hockey parroting on about we have to pass the budget in this form, there is no alternative, hahaha bulls***.
Nothing left to sell, well, besides medibank & grids.
Let's blow money on roads, infrastructure of the 21st century!@&^ Nah, that was the NBN in Labor form.
Let's blow money on submarines, oh Labor did nothing for 6 years!@& Guess what, Domestic infrastructure spending is far more important than Defence spending in peace time.
06:45am 14/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
38913 posts
need more stimulus.


best idea in this thread!
07:04am 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16947 posts

Let's blow money on submarines, oh Labor did nothing for 6 years!@& Guess what, Domestic infrastructure spending is far more important than Defence spending in peace time.


Peace time...


You really think it is a nice stable peace time at the moment? Russia f*****g invaded Ukraine dude, they got the s*** sanctioned out of them. They cut off gas supply to the east (ps the east really needs that gas). They are warning the yanks to top arming the Ukrainians.
The Middle East has a large army running amok.
China is being really pushy in the SEA seas.
Japan is building up their army of killer robots.

How long do you think it takes to build a stack of submarines and have them manned by fully trained soldiers? If wait until 'peace time' is over, it's too f*****g late.

I know it's all love and ponies in Vashland, however the world is in a pretty unstable place, it won't take much for it to tip over and go full retard.
09:12am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4320 posts
The fact that Russia is doing what it likes just reinforces the political climate in the world today is much much different. I don't think we'll see a war with a superpower anytime soon.
And if there is, a small submarine fleet will do nothing, we'd be better off investing in a missle defense system..

Now if things got tense with Indonesia, sure, a submarine fleet would be handy. But noone is going to hit us unless it's a world war, and f*** experiencing WW3 with today's technology.
09:17am 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16948 posts

And if there is, a small submarine fleet will do nothing, we'd be better off investing in a missle defense system..


You have no idea of the power of submarines it seems. We are surrounded by ocean. If anyone is invading this country they have to bring their people here by boat.

They can't move their boats over to here whilst we have the mere threat of invisible underwater missile platforms that could be anywhere. Well they could try, but they will probably lose a lot of boats.

Australia is of huge strategic important for any SEA conflict.

You can't ignore your military dude. The Pope said we were already in WW3 lol.
09:23am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4321 posts
The pope says many silly things, as religious people do.

Submarines are important, perhaps in the old world.. For a conflict to being with us it's going to be from a superpower. Subs aren't going to stop long range nukes.
09:29am 14/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20442 posts
Please stahhhhhhp talk vash

You are doing my head in
09:44am 14/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2134 posts
How long do you think it takes to build a stack of submarines and have them manned by fully trained soldiers?


Well the answer would be never as submarines aren't manned by soldiers.

Submarines are important, perhaps in the old world.. For a conflict to being with us it's going to be from a superpower. Subs aren't going to stop long range nukes.


Nothing will stop ICBMs, and by the same token nothing in the ADF could stop a nuke. So by your logic we don't need what we have because it can't stop a nuke.

I'm still trying to get my head around the USA nuking us because they are the only superpower left. By definition a superpower is characterised by its unparalleled ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale. Russia, China and India are not superpowers.

Funnily enough, any conventional attack against Australia would require massive materiel support. The tyranny of distance we suffer from works both ways.
10:38am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4322 posts
Ok if you want to get technical.. A country, or countries that have the capability of attacking Australia and NATO along with it. I don't believe anyone would partake in such a thing. The only ones capable are nuclear states, Russia, China. It simply wouldn't happen. There's no soviet union anymore.
The subs are a huge waste of money, and Labor was smart to spend money elsewhere.
10:52am 14/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1575 posts
I wouldn't take as read a war with Australia means a war with NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, might not be to interested in setting up shop in the south pacific.
11:02am 14/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20443 posts
this is just getting more awkward
11:04am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4324 posts
We're also allied with NATO...Hence why i said along with NATO.
11:08am 14/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2135 posts
The only ones capable are nuclear states, Russia, China. It simply wouldn't happen. There's no soviet union anymore.
The subs are a huge waste of money, and Labor was smart to spend money elsewhere.


Pakistan, India, North Korea and Israel are also nuclear states but why target us when the USA is within range.

No, the subs aren't a waste. Tactically, Strategically and Economically (if they are built here) they are money well spent. The F-35 is a waste of money, firstly because of no competitive tender, secondly because they don't meet any specific role with any superiority, thirdly because the designs have been stolen and already countered, fourthly because they are bloody expensive (more than twice the cost of their nearest rival, Eurofighter Typhoon), fifthly because they are badly broken in many unrelated areas (engines, fuel, no software to fire the gun), lastly because Howard is not a good and proper judge of military hardware and he decided to buy them.
11:08am 14/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22341 posts
Building the subs here is a complete waste of money. I hope the submarine company is closed down. They are the Holden of the sea.
11:10am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4325 posts
F35s were definitely a waste.

Infi the hater of jobs, just like the LNP.
Stop the waste. stop the jobs.

If the subs are to be built, they should be built here.
11:13am 14/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1576 posts
We're also allied with NATO...Hence why i said along with NATO.

No we aren't? NATO *is* an alliance, if we aren't in it we aren't allied with it.
If I'm wrong though I'm sure Albania will come running to our aid. Maybe Luxembourg.

If we wanted someone to help us wouldn't we invoke ANZUS or whatever that one is called.

They are the Holden of the sea.

I don't think you could do better than a submersible XR8. Un-australian to say otherwise.
11:18am 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4326 posts
Heh you're saying the UK / USA wouldn't come to our aid? They're in NATO.. Among many other members of it would come to aid
11:22am 14/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22344 posts
SO other countries should maintain their defence systems and come to our aid when we need defence while we defund our own defence system. You are a complete idiot.
11:49am 14/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1577 posts
Heh you're saying the UK / USA wouldn't come to our aid? They're in NATO.. Among many other members of it would come to aid


Like they came to Ukraine's aid? Oh Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

It's ok to be ignorant about stuff, man. If the USA and UK came to our aid it would because of defense arrangements we have with them specifically, such as the ANSUZ treaty. NATO has nothing to do with it.
12:05pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16949 posts

Building the subs here is a complete waste of money. I hope the submarine company is closed down. They are the Holden of the sea.


I partially agree. By letting the Japanese build them we save a lot of money. However we are then forced to be continual allies with Japan as we will be reliant on them for the maintenance of subs and training of sub crew. They aren't going to share all their secrets in the building.

That being said. Japan is pretty balls deep in Western economy/culture (with their own spin of course) and I can't see them becoming an enemy of Australia/US seeing as China is not their friend, and they are still pissed with the South Koreans.

So I don't think the reliance of Japan for our subs will actually turn out to be a bad thing. Unless Japan gets occupied in the future, if that happens we are probably boned anyway.


Well the answer would be never as submarines aren't manned by soldiers.


When I typed that I backspaced soldiers as I knew it was worng, but then I was like 'wtf are they called, submariners? maybe, soldiers will do, people will understand what I mean'. HAhaha

Vash, did you not learn about WW2? The USA did sweet f*** all for their allies until late in the war.
However you are right, Aus will require aid if a big nation believes it's time to occupy us we can't hold them off indefinitely. We will however need to stall the enemy long enough for aid to arrive.

The hardest part with taking a nation is getting a foothold inside it, once you do get a foothold things start getting MUCH harder for defense. The idea is we delay long enough so they don't get that foot hold. Subs are vital.
It seems our military leaders, the ones who reallllllly know their s***, also agree.



12:15pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16950 posts
The US/UK will come to our aid, we are in a major strategic position for attack/defense of SEA. If Aus got occupied or had to deal with constant incoming threats, much of SEA would be locked off from Allied free movement.
12:16pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4327 posts
Not buying subs is not defunding defence...

NATO has many members that would come to Australia's aid. Regardless of your technicalities of existing treaties.

Also, this in reply to the retardness of the telegraph's $1 trillion figure:

http://i.imgur.com/F8kTlq6.png
12:17pm 14/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22346 posts
that makes an assumption of continued economic growth. debt grows irregardless. there is no source for the calculation supplied.
12:23pm 14/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1578 posts
NATO has many members that would come to Australia's aid.

Other than the US and the UK, who we have our own collective security treaties with, who would come?

I'm pretty sure you know sweet f*** all about our defensive arrangements with Europe, and exactly what impact that has on the decision to get submarines.

I'm not suggesting I have an answer, but then I'm not the one claiming they are categorically a waste of money.
12:29pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4328 posts
And that's an assumption that smarter budget measures won't be passed anytime leading up to 2037. If austerity continues, growth will continue to slow.
12:33pm 14/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11549 posts
Our only enemy could be Indonesia.
It is cheaper to build schools, pursue friendship with Indonesia than waste money on toys.

I think Australia would benefit far more with a vast Drone based Military which would be a halluva lot cheaper.

12:39pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1622 posts

The tax base needs to be fixed to fix the deficit.

Joe won't bother with this though, the libs have their snouts in the trough.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/business/tax-haven-explosion-puts-hole-in-corporate-tax-20150213-13dnh8.html

As the parliamentary inquiry into corporate tax avoidance looms, lobbying by vested interests has been furious, commensurate with the size of the dollars at stake.
Among recent developments, the "big four" accounting firms – the architects and promoters of profit shifting – lifted their collective contribution to political parties, mostly the Liberal Party, by almost 20 per cent last year to $551,498.
PricewaterhouseCoopers and KPMG were the most enthusiastic, collectively doubling their "contribution to the democratic process" during 2013-14.
Moreover, the push to shut down proposals for greater tax transparency proceeds apace. In its submission to the inquiry, peak accounting body CPA Australia has called for the government to abandon plans for increased disclosure. Incredibly, its argument is that disclosure leads to uninformed public comment.
"Accordingly, to review taxpayers based predominantly on information they disclose will inevitably continue to lead to uninformed public comment," CPA said. "This could be both unfair and damaging to company reputations and their businesses, where companies complied fully with their legal obligations but are perceived by some commentators to have paid insufficient tax."


This is mind boggling stuff from the CPA; "don't share information about companies dodging tax because the public is too stupid to understand our bean counting witchcraft."


12:40pm 14/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20444 posts
Dude you used NATO because you didn't really now what it meant, just accept it stop trying to twist it.

Our alliance with the poms and the yanks does not mean we are part of NATO or allied with the rest of NATO countries
12:40pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15874 posts
hahah infi said irregardless

big words r hard yo
01:02pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16951 posts

Not buying subs is not defunding defence...


So you instead advocate spending money on an ineffective military, instead of spending the money on something that has tremendous strategic use???

It's a lot harder to stop a missile fired from a sub than it is one fired from land, the distances involved are considerably different. You don't have to arc the missile as high from a sub to hit your target, that makes anti-missiles defenses much harder to be successful. You also have to worry about torpedoes. You also have to worry about them just being around following you and reporting on your exact movements.

A well placed sub can also disrupt communications between enemy ships and home. They can cause issues with your supply route as they can get in behind your lines much easier than anything else.

It's dumb to think we shouldn't have subs, as many as we can afford.
01:17pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16952 posts

I think Australia would benefit far more with a vast Drone based Military which would be a halluva lot cheaper.


Japan is doing that, I'm sure if we bought subs off them they'll probably be willing to sell us a stack of drones too.

We have a drone focused regiment (or whatever it is called) in Darwin don't we?
01:19pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16953 posts
Not only that, but I'm sure part of our defense strategy is based on what equipment our allies have and are/willing to send our way in times of trouble.
01:22pm 14/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15875 posts
Pretty sure most of our defense strategy is 'be an island'.
10:02am 15/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7087 posts
Yeah drones are way cheaper ... until Skynet becomes self-aware.

10:17am 15/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2136 posts


Japan is doing that, I'm sure if we bought subs off them they'll probably be willing to sell us a stack of drones too.

We have a drone focused regiment (or whatever it is called) in Darwin don't we?


Actually the 20th Surveillance and Target Acquisition Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery is based in Enoggera. They operate ScanEagles and the RQ-7 Shadow which uses the Wankel rotary engine the same design used in the Mazda RX-8. We have UAVs which are like over sized R/C models.

The RAAF is considering purchasing MQ-4C Tritons to supplement maritime surveillance. They are also unarmed.

Not only that, but I'm sure part of our defense strategy is based on what equipment our allies have and are/willing to send our way in times of trouble.


One of the things to come out of WWII was that the Western allies didn't have weapons of the same standard. For example the 75mm gun fitted to British made tanks is different to the 75mm fitted to the M4 Sherman series, USA used 30.06 Ammo, British .303.

When NATO was formed as a defence against the Soviet Bloc was to standardise ammunition. This was called, strangely enough, "NATO Standard" today it's called "STANAG" because the USA is anally obsessed about creating acronyms. Australia being a western democracy was an early adopter of "NATO Standard" mostly because the USA was closer than Britian and, in any case, the Brits were also a part of NATO. Despite the fact that British weaponry such as the QF 25pr was much better than the 105mm M2A1 (more accurate, longer range) and the .303 better than the 7.62mm (more accurate, longer range).

Every NATO nation uses STANAG which is at about 1300 different agreements. Therefore we can buy rifles from USA (M16 and M4 series), Brit (L-85), French (FAMAS), Austria (Styer), German (G36) and find they all fire the same bullet. A STANAG Magazine will fit into all those rifles.

Standardisation is a key to logistics success in any military operation.
01:01pm 15/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1185 posts
The funniest thing is that Vash thinks a 1 trillion dollar debt is completely fine. There's no consequences for growing endless debt and deficit. Just keep racking it up to fund welfare programs for the middle class or as Vash and his other Greeny communist far left types like to call them "the desperately poor"
01:19pm 15/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22348 posts
Hang on, $1trillion deficit and no defence force.
01:22pm 15/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4331 posts


the only issue is corporate welfare
01:32pm 15/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1186 posts
"The only issue"

But hang on, you actively support corporate welfare for the renewable energy sector. Also corporate welfare barely makes up any of our huge deficit so no, it isn't the only issue.

You are a Hypocrite. Everything you stand for has completely been debunked and deemed a failure in history and your desperate attempts at promoting it as some sort of utopian "it will fix everything" is a joke.

Why hasn't the mods nuked his "communism is awesome" posts as "dumb" yet?
07:07pm 15/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24886 posts
"The only issue"

But hang on, you actively support corporate welfare for the renewable energy sector. Also corporate welfare barely makes up any of our huge deficit so no, it isn't the only issue.

You are a Hypocrite. Everything you stand for has completely been debunked and deemed a failure in history and your desperate attempts at promoting it as some sort of utopian "it will fix everything" is a joke.

Why hasn't the mods nuked his "communism is awesome" posts as "dumb" yet?
froth harder bro.
07:39pm 15/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22350 posts
froth harder bro.


another worthless, content free comment.

The cost of the diesel rebate in mining is $2.4b. (Keeping in mind it is only a rebate for fuel excise and not for the cost of fuel itself.) The current Australian budget deficit is approx $60b. Brool's post is completely accurate.
09:03pm 15/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24888 posts
Not really, he should have said haven't, not hasn't.

Watching you two cheerlead for each other is something quite special, though.
10:38pm 15/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1401 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Disruptive
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11:45pm 15/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2137 posts
It's even funner that there's a very very very small number of people that think Tony Abbott is not brain dead even when the rest of the planet knows he's a vacuous amoeba.


Firstly, what did an amoeba do to you to be insulted so much.

Secondly, I've heard Tones blames Labor for the Eidsvold earthquakes.
08:55am 16/02/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4912 posts
that makes an assumption of continued economic growth. debt grows irregardless. there is no source for the calculation supplied.


I am sorry for this but i just cant help myself. Irregardless isnt a f*****g word, the use of it is like putting a giant neon sign over your head saying total dumbs***. Youve really disapointed me infi as it used to be only the dumbest of americans tbat used it.
10:20am 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16954 posts
Taipan, since we are being pedantic. Irregardless is a word, a really poor one as the ir- is redundant due to the -less.

Anyway, for a word to be a word people just have to use it.
10:47am 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22351 posts
I am sorry for this but i just cant help myself. Irregardless isnt a f*****g word, the use of it is like putting a giant neon sign over your head saying total dumbs***. Youve really disapointed me infi as it used to be only the dumbest of americans tbat used it.


A word is a word if it is used in the lexicon. Just like "dumbs***". If the user and the listener both understand the point being made then the point is moot so shut ya piehole. Try discussing the issue instead of some nitpicky issue like blue ties.
11:00am 16/02/15 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6508 posts
You've also has an apostrophe in it and you miss-spelled 'that.'
11:02am 16/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15881 posts
Taipan, since we are being pedantic. Irregardless is a word, a really poor one as the ir- is redundant due to the -less.

Anyway, for a word to be a word people just have to use it.

Its a non-standard word at dictionary.com. What's the definition of a non-standard word at dictionary.com?
Usage note
A term labeled Nonstandard in this dictionary is one that is thought to be characteristic of the speech of persons with little education—a term that is often regarded as a marker of low social status.

Next thing you'll be saying that 'supposably' is OK too!
11:27am 16/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2138 posts
Well isn't this a turn of events, infis losing his language skills which is a sign of the early onset of alzheimer's. I'm just wondering if he'll overcharge himself like his residents.

oh and a meme bringing it back on topic;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10689929_10205335788865610_2102989922313099208_n.jpg?oh=ea1770614da2b705005801f767388e7a&oe=554BB824&__gda__=1435230299_2bfcf6e5044d0cf4fb460fddeb9a4a5a
12:20pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16955 posts
Oxford Dictionary has it as a word.
02:36pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15882 posts
http://i.imgur.com/fUFLiYs.png

Its listed as an informal usage of the word regardless.

Even a huffpo article supporting irregardless' word status notes:

One commenter, the same who said, "Irregardless is not a word," noted rather aptly, "There is absolutely no value to 'irregardless' except to recognize people who didn't study." Exactly. There is nothing wrong with its ability to communicate; it's only the word's metacommunication--that is, what it communicates about its user--that is problematic. To put it a different way, the problem with irregardless is entirely social: If you use it, you'll be thought of as uneducated, even though everyone can understand you just fine.


Its the fact that the word was used when attempting to persuade people as an authority on a subject that is drawing ridicule. It doesn't matter if its in a dictionary or not; using it is like being a VB.Net programmer, a (perhaps unfair, mind you!) tell that will draw immediate judgement. Its the sort of word we can expect to show up in a vetted news.com.au article.
03:23pm 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22352 posts
Would you like to start a spelling and grammar thread? Are there any other singular words you would like to tie yourself in knots over, at the expense of substantial discussion?
03:44pm 16/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8492 posts
This post has been removed.
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04:03pm 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22354 posts
hey it's not me that thinks money for social programs and handouts is unlimited irregardless of demand from very needy people or the country's financial position .
04:06pm 16/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8493 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
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04:19pm 16/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
985 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
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04:25pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4333 posts
hey it's not me that thinks money for social programs and handouts is unlimited irregardless of demand from very needy people or the country's financial position .


Noone thinks that, you're just being obtuse as usual.
Apply appropriate taxation to super profits, cut subsidies, bang, budget in the green.
04:35pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16957 posts
I suspect our countries financial position is at the mercy of our big neighbors. If they all continue to devalue their currencies we will be forced to do the same. All we can really do is reduce interest rates further. When we hit ultra-ultra low interest rates and can't cut back much further, then we will have a real budget emergency. QE Australia anyone?
05:06pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16958 posts
Thinking about it a little bit, wouldn't it actually be doing our economy a disservice to run on a budget surplus as that would make our currency seem 'safer' and encourage people to pile in for a stable currency forcing our $ up. If we are left with a high value currency and all our neighbors are low, do we also get to shoulder their unemployment?

So wouldn't it be better, for the time being, to run in deficit in order to not have to reduce interests lower and lower too often? Or have I got this totally wrong?
05:23pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4335 posts
The budget surplus obsession is what's made our political landscape such a s***fest.
As is evident with every libtard you talk to, all they can say is we have to fix labor's mess.

The fact is, the debt is miniscule compared in the OECD. I support methods to a surplus only to shutup these idiots, there are many ways to reduce the deficit growing rather than cutting from "dole bludgers" which is a myth in itself.

But yes, going for a surplus is harmful to the economy because to get there, you have to make sacrifices to infrastructure spending, which is a necessity for growing the economy.
The government needs to spend to stimulate the economy, and reign in debt growth via taxation on super profits or super concessions / negative gearing which are fat bits of wealth that would not harm the economy to cut from, especially considering the concentration of wealth in the Sydney property market.

The logic of cutting taxes to big business to stimulate job growth is ludicrous, and back to the trickle down economics myth. Fair enough cutting taxes to small business, they are the big job creators.

The super profit companies (mining, banks) do not create jobs from tax cuts, it simply gets sent to a small amount of investors, who then reinvest into property/more shares, concentrating wealth into a minority. There's no incentive to create jobs for these corporations, all that matters is increasing the bottom line figure for the shareholder.
You want more wealth to the population as a whole to stimulate an economy.

We need to get more of the wealth staying here in Australia, rather than sent offshore.
05:43pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16959 posts
In Denmark, they have negative interest on the bonds. People PAY Denmark to lend Denmark money :/
05:51pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16960 posts

nd reign in debt growth via taxation on super profits or super concessions / negative gearing


Buying doing this you risk injecting considerable uncertainty into the market through removing negative gearing. Taxing super profits means there is less money from super accounts to buy Australian debt, which in turn drives our bond rates up. From what I understand this then makes our future interest on debt cost more.
So to take the tax them more and remove negative gearing approach, it could actually cost Australia more in the long run.
05:57pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4336 posts
Uncertainty for who? The property investors? The problem is there's too much property investment going on. Housing affordability is at all time lows.
By doing this our debt will be less, so the interest rate increase is moot.
06:05pm 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22355 posts
In Denmark, they have negative interest on the bonds. People PAY Denmark to lend Denmark money :/


they are trying to stimulate domestic spending. More accurately, Denmark is charging bank depositors for storing their savings.

But yes, going for a surplus is harmful to the economy because to get there, you have to make sacrifices to infrastructure spending, which is a necessity for growing the economy.


It is about resource allocation. Private individuals are competing with the Australian government for the same concrete and railroad sleepers and utility trucks and most importantly labour. If the government takes up slack through "stimulus projects" how can wage rates and contractor rates be allowed to deflate, thus making more projects viable... This is exactly what the mining boom caused and you are now advocating the government to trigger one intentionally.

The government constantly inflating the cost of goods by consuming to excess is not a good solution because private sector projects are shelved - private investors cannot complete against projects with marginal return on investment. It is good to make an economy choose priorities. Demanding everything at once is another symptom of magic pudding economics.

The logic of cutting taxes to big business to stimulate job growth is ludicrous, and back to the trickle down economics myth. Fair enough cutting taxes to small business, they are the big job creators.


a private individual will be more careful in spending their money than the government. it's not so much about trickle down, it is about efficiency resource allocation. building overpriced boondoggles is not good government. isn't it better to create jobs that last a generation or more because the company is viable rather than temporary jobs based on stimulus?

The property investors? The problem is there's too much property investment going on. Housing affordability is at all time lows.


the best policy I have heard yet is this initiative from Abbott to clamp down on illegal residential property purchases by foreign investors. after watching that 4 corners episode on Chinese gambling I an convinced there must be billions of dollars of dirty Chinese money being laundered into Australia and specifically into the Australian property market.

blah blah blah blah. You're dumb and boring.


another content free post from someone with nothing to contribute.
06:28pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16961 posts
Uncertainty to the conglomeration of money holders. Do you know how a government gets money to spend on stuff that puts them into debt? They issue bonds.
The more uncertainty and perceived risk of the country in general means a higher interest rate on bond is demanded (it is also compared to other countries bonds), otherwise nothing buys your countries bonds and your country will find it very hard to get money to pay for stuff like welfare.


By taxing the s*** out of everything and removing negative gearing you drive off a significant portion of your international (and national) investors. All that money is now gone from your country and put to use elsewhere. Now your tax revenues are wayyyy lower, but your expenditures are still the same and your currency is going down. Uh oh, now we are heading into some really significant budget problems, very quickly will it spiral out of control.
The world starts to react and has serious concerns with your ability to pay your debts, your bonds. So now people are going to start asking for some serious yields in order to buy your bonds. The cost to borrow money for your country is ratcheting up really quickly.
But hay, houses are cheaper. Only, there is more unemployment due to capital flight. Eventually it will level out and companies will start setting up shop for your low paid workers, it's going to have to get pretty low pay to compete with places like China. In the meantime though, your country has had to pay hefty fees for borrowing money. So you get to do much less, spending much more.

Is that what you want for Vashland?
06:39pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16962 posts

The government constantly inflating the cost of goods by consuming to excess is not a good solution because private sector projects are shelved - private investors cannot complete against projects with marginal return on investment. It is good to make an economy choose priorities. Demanding everything at once is another symptom of magic pudding economics.


America is getting away with though. Japan once showed the world how to do QE. Then America decided, pfft child's play watch us!
06:43pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4337 posts
You say such things as if its a definite, that increasing taxes on super profits will drive away investors in droves? Pure speculation there.
Carbon & Mining taxes were good things, they didn't drive away investors, and now Hockey has doubled the deficit by cutting such taxes, for no benefit.
06:51pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16963 posts

You say such things as if its a definite, that increasing taxes on super profits will drive away investors in droves? Pure speculation there.


It will certainly reduce super profits and in turn will reduce investment into them. This will of course mean super funds will have less money to invest into things. Less investment = less growth = less future revenue.
I though you wanted more investment to sper economic growth?
Taxing super profits probably wont hurt too much, I don't think it will all that beneficial either.

Removing negative gearing though, that will smash our economy into the ground. We have far too much $ invested in real estate. The best you can do is slowly tapering it off.
06:56pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4338 posts
Tax it appropriately to solve the deficit growth, not to the extent of damaging investment. Which a level of broad taxation would not among multiple areas.
07:00pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4913 posts
You've also has an apostrophe in it and you miss-spelled 'that.'


Yeah no s*** sherlock but since i am on my mobile i couldnt be f***ed d***ing around with it.
07:10pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16964 posts

Tax it appropriately to solve the deficit growth, not to the extent of damaging investment. Which a level of broad taxation would not among multiple areas.


Here is the issue, how do you decide what is appropriate? I think the current level is appropriate, infi thinks it should be lower and you think it should be higher. You want to raid the future, to pay for now, do you think that is wise?
07:14pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4339 posts
Appropriate to stop the deficit growth, which would not require much. The damage you're saying this will do is overstated.
We've just removed taxes that were benefiting the budget. You seem to think increasing taxation will cause hysterics and massive future issues. I think thats hyperbole.
The biggest damage is resolving the deficit via the methods the government are doing now, which we're seeing throughout the economy.

Taxing super profits among other things will have lesser impact.
07:17pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16965 posts

The damage you're saying this will do is overstated.


But Vash, that is pure speculation!

Taxing superannuation more will mean people looking to retire in the future, including you and I, will have less available to us. This will push more people into requiring government supported aged pensions in the future because their isn't enough.
So again, you are essentially raiding the future, for the present.

How about we figure out a way to pay our budget requirements without raiding the future?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 19:48:47 16/Feb/15
07:39pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4340 posts
Im not saying tax super, i mean super profits (banks, mining)
Super concessions in the sense of, the government doubling your contribution needs to be cut, not increased taxation on actual super.
07:55pm 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22356 posts
America is getting away with though. Japan once showed the world how to do QE. Then America decided, pfft child's play watch us!


and neither are any further advanced than if they had done nothing. japan is still rooted (primarily due to an ingrained culture of consumer restraint) and america is just commencing recovery six years after their recession started i.e. about normal recovery time.

real jobs (from real investment capital) and real productivity (not productivity faked through inflation) is what grows an economy. government stimulus programs actual harm both objectives.
08:50pm 16/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1187 posts
One of the ABC's most acclaimed journalists, Sarah Ferguson, was so hostile towards Treasurer Joe Hockey in an interview last year that she breached the broadcaster's bias guidelines, an ABC-commissioned editorial review has found
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/sarah-ferguson-interview-with-joe-hockey-breached-abc-bias-guidelines-review-20150216-13gbmj.html

Well, at least they are self punishing. That's a good thing right?
11:04pm 16/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16966 posts

Im not saying tax super, i mean super profits (banks, mining)


Oh, but then the majority of Australians have a significant portion of their actual super tied to these companies and their profits. So you are still taxing (albeit indirectly) peoples super.


and neither are any further advanced than if they had done nothing.

..

government stimulus programs actual harm both objectives.


I thought, infi, that you believed in trickle down economics? QE has is considered to have made the richest end of the market much richer, whilst having little to no effect on the low end of town. With trickle down economics, wouldn't the rich getting richer mean more jobs and whatnot? Seems not.
11:50pm 16/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22357 posts
I thought, infi, that you believed in trickle down economics? QE has is considered to have made the richest end of the market much richer, whilst having little to no effect on the low end of town. With trickle down economics, wouldn't the rich getting richer mean more jobs and whatnot? Seems not.


The rich have indeed gotten richer because they got paid for toxic assets. QE in the US destroyed the concept of moral hazard (people who make bad investment decisions should lose their money). Trickle down economics works when proper risk and asset allocations mechanics are in effect i.e. very minimal government intervention, and govt isn't bailing out every poor decision or ailing industry.
12:09am 17/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2139 posts
The rich have indeed gotten richer because they got paid for toxic assets. QE in the US destroyed the concept of moral hazard (people who make bad investment decisions should lose their money). Trickle down economics works when proper risk and asset allocations mechanics are in effect i.e. very minimal government intervention, and govt isn't bailing out every poor decision or ailing industry.


Show one case proving trickle down works.......


The rich only get richer with trickle down as it's a Necon maskirovka.
09:52am 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16967 posts

(people who make bad investment decisions should lose their money)


A good portion of the US QE program went into the stock market and good assets. I'm not sure if you noticed but the US stock mart went up pretty strongly, goods were made and sold and services were provided. Profits increased. These I would not call bad investment decisions.



The rich have indeed gotten richer because they got paid for toxic assets.


Some did, but certainly not all. Most of the money from QE went into higher risk profit making adventures where the rich benefited the most by far.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 10:11:09 17/Feb/15
10:09am 17/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22358 posts
Show one case proving trickle down works.......


everyone has wifi and toilets in their homes. actually we have wifi and toilets in steel tubes that fly around in the air. thank capitalism for that you nimrod.

show one case.... you are obtuse beyond belief.

A good portion of the US QE program went into the stock market and good assets. I'm not sure if you noticed but the US stock mart went up pretty strongly, goods were made and sold and services were provided. Profits increased. These I would not call bad investment decisions.


and the money that trickled down into the stock market came into existence via the purchase of toxic assets. QE bonds were used to purchase toxic assets directly. Banks then reinvested their laundered money in the stock market. That's trickle down right there for you. A corrupted trickle down.
10:19am 17/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1188 posts
Why do you bother infi? The "communism is our saviour" duo will never understand, they live in a fantasy land.
10:46am 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16968 posts
You are forgetting the part where bond purchases were a less attractive investment due to the fed buying it. Instead that money went into the stock market and it didn't go into s*** companies that didn't make anything.

So that is non-toxic. QE is a mixed bag. In end trickle down or not, the rich get rich faster than the poor get rich. Proof is the widening poverty-rich gap. This means that eventually your family lineage will also be poor infi, as I doubt your family wealth is increasing at a faster rate than top 1%.
11:00am 17/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2140 posts
everyone has wifi and toilets in their homes. actually we have wifi and toilets in steel tubes that fly around in the air. thank capitalism for that you nimrod.

show one case.... you are obtuse beyond belief.


Stating wifi and toilets are trickle down is only what they do. Neither are a result of the "trickle down" you refer to. Or is it you're a d******* ad INFInitum.
02:38pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16969 posts
It's actually that you have two differing opinions on what Trickle Down actually is.

Perhaps you should state what you mean. I can sort of see from Infi's example of what he believes trickle down to be.

I believe trickle down only partially works, the poor must get richer at the same rate as the rich in order to sustain a healthy country. So a poor person with $5 can, at the end of the day have $5.5 (super good returns eh), whilst a person with $5,000,000 can have $5,500,000 if they invest in a similar way. However due a massive range of systems in place, the poor person cannot reliably increase their wealth at the same speed as the rich person.
One could even say the poor person has to work twice as hard for the same return, through no fault of their own.

This problem is only getting worse. The poorer people are having to work harder and harder for less and less. Meanwhile their standard of living is increasing, the trickle down. Eventually though, it will surly come to a halt, where the increase in standard of living is more than offset by the increase burden of work if it isn't already there.

At this point, the people will become very unruly.

03:31pm 17/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2141 posts
It's actually that you have two differing opinions on what Trickle Down actually is.

Perhaps you should state what you mean.


I mean Reaganomics, Thatcherism or Horse and Sparrow theory which is the idea that tax breaks or other economic benefits provided to businesses and upper income levels will inevitably benefit poorer members of society by improving the economy as a whole. When it actually slows job growth, raises income inequality, and the inability in raising living standards across all income brackets rather than at the top only.

The Rich are Greedy, I know because I am. Trickle up works because the poor - low - middle are better off before the rich get hold of it.



[Horse and Sparrow definition]

'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.'
06:35pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16972 posts
I wonder if it possible to overhaul the income tax system and welfare system in one hit by doing the following:

1. Scrap All tax rebates/subsidies.
2. Scrap all welfare.
2. Set a Tax Neutral point of the median income for full-time equivalent of all Australians, so around $70,000 or whatever it is, once every 3 years.
3. Set a flat tax of 25%.
4. Your taxable income is your income - the median (70,000 in this case). That means everyone earning under 70,000 has a negative tax rate and receives money from the government instead of giving. This is their welfare.

This makes it so welfare is directly tied to the overall income of all Australians. It locks in 'trickle down' in that if the rich get richer and their incomes increase, then the total welfare going out also increases.

I haven't crunched the numbers at all to see if it actually works out, there would be significant savings in cost of distributing, administering and policing all the different welfare systems in place.
07:12pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16973 posts
In the meantime it wont be long it seems to see what happens when you don't pay your debts. Greece has a couple weeks left of cash before it stalls.
07:59pm 17/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2142 posts

2. Scrap all welfare.


So the unemployed are forced onto the street, aged pensioners who don't have any super are forced to starve, youth are forced to depend on their parents or become homeless.

You want rioting it's a good way to start it.
08:16pm 17/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2143 posts
In the meantime it wont be long it seems to see what happens when you don't pay your debts. Greece has a couple weeks left of cash before it stalls.


Two things may happen, either Greece will be forced to kowtow to the EU and the euro with the austerity or they'll say f*** you and go back to the drachma, making the euro illegal currency in Greece.

I think they need to get out and stay out of the euro because it was an act of stupidity to enter it in the first place.
08:23pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16974 posts

So the unemployed are forced onto the street, aged pensioners who don't have any super are forced to starve, youth are forced to depend on their parents or become homeless.

You want rioting it's a good way to start it.


Huh? They get an income that is their negative tax rate. Newstart is currently about $250 a week. 25% of 70,000 is about $330 a week. So those earning NO income will get the full negative tax break possible, which will always be capped at 0. The maximum income someone can earn has no cap.

So everyone currently on newstart will actually be better off.
08:27pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4341 posts
Interesting idea, though if unemployment rose would that lower welfare for everyone?

I've been reading up more on basic income recently. We'll need something like this, or other ideas into the future when robotics take over lots of jobs.

For the funding of it:
"The affordability of a basic income proposal relies on many factors such as the costs of any public services it replaces, tax increases required, and less tangible auxiliary effects on government revenue and/or spending (for example a successful basic income scheme may reduce crime, thereby reducing required expenditure on policing and justice.)
Specific, though informal, measurements were made by Pascal J. for Canada who concluded that a 2004 taxable basic income benefit of $7800 per adult could be afforded without any tax increases by replacing welfare, unemployment, and core old-age services."
10:15pm 17/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1189 posts


So the unemployed are forced onto the street, aged pensioners who don't have any super are forced to starve, youth are forced to depend on their parents or become homeless.

You want rioting it's a good way to start it.


People survived perfectly well before the invention of the modern welfare state.

Nice hyperbole and a perfect example of people thinking they can't survive without government and its handouts. It's why we have out of control government spending.
10:27pm 17/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24894 posts
HurricaneJim has described scenarios that already exist that would only be further exacerbated by welfare cuts and you describe it as hyperbole? The thing is, people didn't survive perfectly well before the introduction of welfare. That's why it was introduced. Hell, if you didn't have the support of your mum you'd be homeless yourself. That's what amazes me about you. You're so steeped in your own self-loathing that you seem to actively campaign against your own interests.

The mistake frothing at the mouth lolbertarians always make is to accuse the non-believers of being dependent on welfare themselves and therefore desperate to preserve it. They just can't fathom thinking about things that don't at least indirectly serve their own interests. Yet they're always the ones most reliant on welfare themselves, be it brool who is dependent on the government to keep him paid and his mother to keep him fed, or infi who would pretty much be brool if it wasn't for being in possession of an impossible to fail doesn't matter how much of f*** up you are parachute into his father's family business.
10:43pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1912 posts


People survived perfectly well before the invention of the modern welfare state.
No they f*****g didn't. Life expectency was half, infant mortality was extraordinarily high, malnutrition was rife with the underclass. The poor and underprivileged lived in rat and disease infested hovels. Life was absolutely appalling for the poor, underprivileged and lower classes.

Nice hyperbole and a perfect example of people thinking they can't survive without government and its handouts. It's why we have out of control government spending.
Perfect example of ignorance, stupidity, poor education other than the fact you're just a total f***head.

People like you Brool make me sick. You're a putrid excuse for a human being.
10:44pm 17/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
8204 posts
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11:28pm 17/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11554 posts
Government should be building roads, laying pipes, pickin up the garbage.
Government is too big.
It costs a lot of money for a big government, a smaller government is a lot cheaper for us.

Too much Government in Australia.
The Government is not your Friend.
Its a moocher, its that friend that never brings a bag, he leaves before his shout at the Bar, its that friend that wont hit on the ugly chick so you can get the hotty.
Thats Government.
11:58pm 17/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22359 posts
I think of government more as that guy that hangs around the esky offering you rum from that other guy's rum bottle.

https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10689929_10155255653450515_5467478062430852579_n.png?oh=b6b089a97e02b1889cdf04189554b97f&oe=558A44A2
12:06am 18/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1403 posts
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12:19am 18/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2144 posts
11:59am 18/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11555 posts
If Renewable Energy is so lucrative why does it need Government assistance ?
12:54pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16981 posts

If Renewable Energy is so lucrative why does it need Government assistance ?


It doesn't. Solar Choice is looking to build a 2GW solar system in QLD without government funding.

Government funding would certainly help attract more of such adventures that may otherwise get built in another country.
01:03pm 18/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1190 posts
Joe Hockey's quote was directed at foreign and domestic private investment. But of course the Labor froth page creates a meme and takes it out of context pretending it's the governments job to "invest" in things.

Governments corporate welfare to the Renewable Industry is well recorded, it's why the industry does well an the Greens hold it up saying "SEE! SEE!, ITS GOOD!"
01:17pm 18/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22360 posts
It doesn't. Solar Choice is looking to build a 2GW solar system in QLD without government funding.


then why did Hurricane Jim just post a "meme" alleging that? Either solar investment has "collapsed" (see the extreme wording I used there?) due to uncertainty around solar subsidies OR solar is viable in its own right and investment would proceed irregardless.

It can't be both.
01:25pm 18/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8498 posts
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01:48pm 18/02/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9018 posts

If Renewable Energy is so lucrative why does it need Government assistance ?

The poster is referring to the fact that the libs are outright sabotaging the sector, with:

Regulations making Australia one of the hardest places in the world to build wind farms, while moaning about how they can't knock down existing ones and they find them 'offensive'.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/southern-crossroads/2013/may/29/1

Cutting funding to just about anything which would advance Australia's competitive in renewable tech, such as the clean energy startups loan program which was looking to make a positive return for the government and which coal billionaire Palmer of all people stepped in to block the coalition on cutting, purely on ideological grounds (while they of course found new money to give to subsidize mining exploration losses, without any argument for why that industry over any others).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-11/coalition-confirms-plans-to-axe-clean-energy-bank-despite-pleas/4952096

Stoking unscientific fears about 'windfarm illness', ordering more reviews when the international scientific community has more than put it behind them, ironically finding money to spend in science when it's for generating fear and uncertainty about what they're outright trying to blatantly sabotage the advance of.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/government-to-seek-independent-review-of-the-health-impact-of-wind-farms-despite-earlier-findings-20140126-31gz4.html

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/when-lobbyists-blow-in-rate-of-wind-farm-illness-rises-20130315-2g5te.html

Ensuring that they're taking as long as possible to leave things hanging on what Australia's approach and laws on these issues will be, leaving investment right now to be too risky for anybody to start anything with as much uncertainty as they can manage, while sending messages such as the PM saying "climate science is absolute crap" "coal is good for humanity", and the treasurer lamenting multiple times not being able to destroy clean energy startups.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/renewable-investment-dives-in-australia-bucking-global-trend-20150109-12kqhk.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-12/ret-clean-energy-sector-uninvestable-analyst-says/6013090

etc etc.

Take your cheap rhetoric and blow it out your ass.
01:53pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1914 posts
Joe Hockey's quote was directed at foreign and domestic private investment. But of course the Labor froth page creates a meme and takes it out of context pretending it's the governments job to "invest" in things.

Governments corporate welfare to the Renewable Industry is well recorded, it's why the industry does well an the Greens hold it up saying "SEE! SEE!, ITS GOOD!"
Then you must just hate the mining sector for being propped up by the government. Take what Newman was gonna do for Adani as a fine example.


is viable in its own right and investment would proceed irregardless.

It can't be both.
Then the mining sector should be assessed in the same manner and under the same criteria as they've done with car manufacturing and the renewable energy industry. Why haven't they and why is it not universally applied? Why can't mining stand on it's own two feet without subsidy?
02:19pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16982 posts
Pretty sure infi has been against mining corporate welfare, he just doesn't speak up much about it because it doesn't fit in with his bash Labor approach.

Also


Either solar investment has "collapsed" (see the extreme wording I used there?)

You don't get to make fun of extreme words since you totally accepted and propagated the Budget 'Emergency'.

Investment can collapse to stable levels.

I'm waiting for the inevitable forced electricity grid connection. Telsa is about to begin production of their 'Super' Battery, an affordable battery for house-hold electricity storage. It is similar to the one they have in their cars. I could almost go off-grid as it is, the battery costs don't make purchasing a bigger solar system worth it, that and I get the 44cent feed in tariff (FAIL LABOR, waayyyy too high a tariff).

02:58pm 18/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22361 posts
Then the mining sector should be assessed in the same manner and under the same criteria as they've done with car manufacturing and the renewable energy industry. Why haven't they and why is it not universally applied? Why can't mining stand on it's own two feet without subsidy?


fine by me, they are making mega bucks.
03:02pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16983 posts
Also, notice how the QLD gubberment reduced the newer feed-in tariff but left the 44ccent one alone.I totally be they didn't reduce it because most of the MP's have a nice income coming from that high tariff.
03:12pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
2105 posts
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03:26pm 18/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11541 posts
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04:16pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4914 posts
If Renewable Energy is so lucrative why does it need Government assistance ?


Using that logic mining companies must be the most unprofitable businesses in the entire country.
04:40pm 18/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22362 posts
Governments all over the world are obsessed with giving subsidies to industry. Don't think Australia is alone. America and the EU (and any other major exporting economy you can think of) are far worse than Aus.
05:15pm 18/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8500 posts
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05:23pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1624 posts

Who is looking forward to buying a house late march/early april?

http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/senate/economics/affordable_housing_2013

On 12 December 2013, the Senate referred an inquiry into affordable housing to the Senate Economics References Committee for inquiry and report by 26 June 2014.

On 17 June 2014, the Senate granted an extension to the committee to report by
27 November 2014. On 2 October 2014, the committee was granted a further extension to report by the first sitting day in March 2015.


I know I am, all will be revealed and they will take action on unaffordable housing in australia.



lol jks, lets maintain the status quo and give egregious tax lurks to our property owning overlords.


09:01pm 18/02/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
6067 posts
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09:33pm 18/02/15 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2750 posts
Also, notice how the QLD gubberment reduced the newer feed-in tariff but left the 44ccent one alone.I totally be they didn't reduce it because most of the MP's have a nice income coming from that high tariff.


They only did this because the Labor gubberment locked it in until 2028 or some s***. They can't touch it without opening themselves up for lawsuits.

You can't entice people to invest in solar and take it away because of how popular it was.

The 44cent rebate is unfair but also so is 0c. Most providers don't actually give you a feed in rebate anymore which is bulls***. You have to shop around and the most you can get now is 8 cents per kwh.
10:00pm 18/02/15 Permalink
dewb
Brisbane, Queensland
2560 posts
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12:40pm 19/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24899 posts
David Hicks = innocent. Good thing they kept him locked up and tortured for so long.
01:39pm 19/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1191 posts
Lol @ David Hicks apologists who love to pretend he was a completely innocent person and was just randomly arrested using his not guilty verdict on that one charge to say "Look! see! not a terrorist!" Couldn't be further from the truth.

Hicks was found not guilty of the charge "providing material support to terrorism" and that was only on a technicality. An appeals court ruled that material support was not a legally viable war crime for the special wartime court at Guantanamo known as a military commission.

David Hicks IS a terrorist supporter and lover. He has been training and fighting with terrorist groups since 1999.

- Kosovo Liberation Army against Serbian forces in 1999
- Trained with terror group Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan
- Joined al-Qaeda in Afghanistan

Hell, he was captured alongside the Taliban while guarding a tank and handed over to the U.S. Numerous letters he sent home were intercepted where he described his paramilitary training and boasted about repeated meetings with Osama bin Laden.

Some of the Letters.
“I have met Osama bin Laden about 20 times he is a lovely brother. The only reason the West call him the most wanted terrorist is because he got the money to take action. If it is my time that is called to martyrdom I will always fight for Islam.”
“I learnt about weapons such as ballistic missiles, surface-to-surface and shoulder-fired missiles, anti-aircraft and anti-tank rockets, rapid-fire heavy and light machineguns, pistols, AK47s, mines and explosives.



It's Comedy gold that he claims he was just in Afghanistan for a "holiday" F*****G LOL. The funniest thing is that the left will actually believe this. He is a hero to them.
02:08pm 19/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20468 posts
was he actually innocent though?

the photo of him with the RPG launcher didn't help his case, not that i ever did any serious reading into it
02:15pm 19/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22364 posts
He just got mixed up with wrong crowd. He didn't even know it was a tank.
02:47pm 19/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20469 posts
maybe he was just waiting for a mate?
02:48pm 19/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2145 posts
I cheerfully await the litigation his case.

In the mean time it looks like Ashby will not only lose $3m in costs but also be charged with perjury. To top it all off Pine and Brough might get "attempting to pervert the cause of justice" charges as well. Then there is the Kathy Jackson saga...

and a bar chart meme;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11002602_10153145704161528_3642493562998143155_n.jpg?oh=42cbbb43b99e76dd930672a4d90c8671&oe=55971D2D&__gda__=1431266632_86607a3a2d45bd125e397081c7a0c13a
04:38pm 19/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
912 posts
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04:58pm 19/02/15 Permalink
danthepirate
Brisbane, Queensland
162 posts
The 44cent rebate is unfair but also so is 0c. Most providers don't actually give you a feed in rebate anymore which is bulls***. You have to shop around and the most you can get now is 8 cents per kwh.


Best feed in rate you can get is 12c from click. They have higher rates but you end up well ahead. I worked out that if you get a 4kw system for $4900 (which we did), on the click plan, using 3.5kwh per day of solar, we would be ahead (compared with leaving the money on our house loan) after 7 years.

In reality, we will use more than that of solar per day and it is likely that electricity rates will go up in the future reducing the payback period. The other thing is that while the 44c rate was still available, the cost of solar was a lot higher. It is only because the cost of solar is reduced that it still is a good option with the reduced feed in rates and rebates.
05:04pm 19/02/15 Permalink
dewb
Brisbane, Queensland
4787 posts
so dank
05:27pm 19/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2146 posts
The information in that graph is completely false, nice try. Of course you wouldn't research the information to see if its actually true.


T. Bourke Shop G29 Centro Roselands, Roselands NSW 2196 is the person who did the research and published it. Now where it your named source?
05:38pm 19/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16988 posts

The other thing is that while the 44c rate was still available, the cost of solar was a lot higher.


We bought a 1.5kW for about $3000 ages ago and bought a 3kW inverter. We have since upgraded to a 4kW system, using the same inverter size to keep our 44cent tariff. We are capped at max production of 3.1kW's, however we have some panels on east and west facing roof and capture a lot of morning and afternoon. Our effective rate averages around a 4.1kW system.
07:18pm 19/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4343 posts
07:22pm 19/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
38954 posts
haha, its funny coz its true.
08:06pm 19/02/15 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7368 posts
and a bar chart meme;
More like a bad chart meme. If you're going to graph percentages, the y axis should start at 0.
08:49pm 19/02/15 Permalink
Jayman
Brisbane, Queensland
901 posts
More like a bad chart meme. If you're going to graph percentages, the y axis should start at 0.


I see more and more GPU benchmarks and the like doing this as well. They like to make a difference so small you probably wouldn't notice seem twice as good.
09:05pm 19/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22365 posts
More like a bad chart meme. If you're going to graph percentages, the y axis should start at 0.


nor does it include the spending of earlier years
09:10pm 19/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2147 posts
More like a bad chart meme. If you're going to graph percentages, the y axis should start at 0.


I see more and more GPU benchmarks and the like like this as well. They like to make a difference so small you probably wouldn't notice seem twice as good.


Yeah, nup only because the chart clearly shows that all the debt from 2013/14 onwards has been generated by the LNP. You see when you take government you also take all the responsibility.
09:14pm 19/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22366 posts


Yeah, nup only because the chart clearly shows that all the debt from 2013/14 onwards has been generated by the LNP. You see when you take government you also take all the responsibility.


Otherwise known as the "hospital pass".
09:23pm 19/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1582 posts
maybe he was just waiting for a mate?


This is what he was doing for reals.

Glad to see Brool is also an expert on american anti terror laws as well. Gees for someone who knows so much why do you have so little.
09:45pm 19/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2148 posts


Otherwise known as the "hospital pass".


Well I'll refer you to the Mad as Hell vid Vash posted above for what the LNP has been doing since the election. All the senior people in the LNP aren't leaders they don't know how to govern they just oppose. Unfortunately for Labor, they should have elected either Albanese or Plibersek as leader {although I do have a soft spot for Penny Wong), Bill Shorten is just a bit mushy for my liking.
11:32pm 19/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
913 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Complaining about post removal
Send Private Message
12:41am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1583 posts
Hicks was found not guilty of the charge "providing material support to terrorism" and that was only on a technicality.


How do you know any of that? The judgment was only handed down in the last few days, I seriously doubt you have the brains to figure out where to find the judgement. What actually happened was the US government wasn't able to bring charges because there was no law against providing material support to terrorism when they caught him. found not guilty is a pretty big difference to there was no crime to be charged with.

Not really a technicality, but carry on.

At the end of the day David Hicks is a piece of s***

At the end of the day you don't know s*** about him and quoting wiki doesn't change that. I might add you obviously struggle with the word "allegedly".

As far as I can see, you think lefty green f*** love him so you hate him, that's as far as you've reasoned it, but you attempt make out like you've got an understanding of the facts, when you obviously don't
07:35am 20/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
16991 posts
Dude was busted doing dodgy s***, there is no doubt. However it was his detainment and what surrounded, that was the issue.
08:41am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1584 posts
Yeah but tol the issue is that he was detained because of his *legal* dodgy s***. You can't separate them.
08:57am 20/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22368 posts
Yeah but tol the issue is that he was detained because of his *legal* dodgy s***. You can't separate them.


Keep in mind that offences did not exist for providing material assistance to terrorist organisations at the time of September 11 and this was all new territory for US and Australia.

The guy is scumbag and a terrorist. He wanted to harm Australia and our soldiers. It's just a shame our defence forces didn't get to blow his head off.
09:37am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1585 posts
What part of my sentence doesn't say like exactly this:
Keep in mind that offences did not exist


Even if he was a terrorist as you suggest (and this is far from clear) nothing he had done was a crime in either Australia or the US, hence at least in the US, his detention was unconstitutional.

the *entire* issue is his detention and torture while not having committed a crime. Him being a nice guy isn't relevant.
09:47am 20/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22369 posts
What part of my sentence doesn't say like exactly this:


Even if he was a terrorist as you suggest (and this is far from clear) nothing he had done was a crime in either Australia or the US, hence at least in the US, his detention was unconstitutional.

the *entire* issue is his detention and torture while not having committed a crime. Him being a nice guy isn't relevant.


he was detained as an enemy combatant.
09:51am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1586 posts
he was detained as an enemy combatant.


And then charged with a non-existent crime. You can't detain people for that. his detention as an enemy combatant would almost certainly have ended when he was transferred to cuba. I don't know, but I seriously doubt 'enemy combatants' get charged with things under the standard laws of war.
09:54am 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1194 posts
How do you know any of that? The judgment was only handed down in the last few days


Welcome to 2015 where we have the internet and the 24 hour news cycle. I don't need to wait days for a telegraph to come through to find out info.

I seriously doubt you have the brains to figure out where to find the judgement.


Sorry to shock you, bu i do. I'm surprised that you think its hard to find the verdict, especially when every single major media outlet is covering it.

At the end of the day you don't know s*** about him and quoting wiki doesn't change that. I might add you obviously struggle with the word "allegedly".


At the end of the day i do, and so does most other people. His activities are well recorded and noted and he can't get away from it despite his desperate attempts. He is trying the whole "look im not guilty on this 1 charge, so that means iv never been involved in terrorism" trick.

Luckily it isn't working.



As far as I can see, you think lefty green f*** love him so you hate him, that's as far as you've reasoned it, but you attempt make out like you've got an understanding of the facts, when you obviously don't


No, just no.I love how you try to sneak in these subtle insults in your post trying to mimic fpot's fail trolling, nice try. I think i'v made it pretty clear why i think he is a piece of s***, and i think it should be pretty clear to you why he is.
11:14am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1587 posts
so where is the judgement brool?

Which court was it heard in?

Who was the Justice that made the Ruling?

What was the exact reasoning of the Justice?

*edit*
Even if you go and find out now, I don't believe you had any idea of the facts the court considered relevant, or had read and here I mean cast your eyeballs over every line of all 11 pages of the judgement, as opposed to parrot the daily mail's third hand interpretation of the judgement.
11:22am 20/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15886 posts
Huh?

If he was detained as an enemy combatant, then was he not a prisoner of war, and protected by Article 4?
11:27am 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1588 posts
no he wasn't hoggy, my suspicion turned out to be correct 'unlawful enemy combatant' turns out to be a bit of a legal unicorn made up by bush etc, to neither have to observe the Geneva convention nor charge with a domestic crime. source
11:30am 20/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2149 posts

so where is the judgement brool?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-19/david-hicks-wins-appeal-against-terrorism-conviction/6144340 bottom of the page.

Which court was it heard in?


United States Court of Military Commission

Who was the Justice that made the Ruling?


Chief Judge Krauss, Deputy Chief Judge Silliman and Judge Webber

What was the exact reasoning of the Justice?


After wading through consideration of waiver and whether Hicks could. They made the decision that the previous judge had erred as to waivers. Hicks case depends on the Al Bahlul case where they found that his case was an "ex post facto violation" of the offense of providing material support to terrorism.

Basically, you can't be tried for a crime that didn't exist at the time. Hicks was detained in 2001, the US law was enacted in 2006.
12:50pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1589 posts
just to tighten that up hurricane, The People offered two arguments:

1. They were entitled to rely on his waiver
2. Hicks could be compelled to specifically perform his pre-trial agreement (ie his 'contractual promise' not to appeal)

It follows that the people offer no argument to the validity of his conviction. Therefore conceding his conviction is wrong.

But thank you for ruining my attempt to make Brool look like a d***.

Also, Silliman J is the relevant judgement, the other two justices concurred.
12:56pm 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1195 posts


But thank you for ruining my attempt to make Brool look like a d***.



How were you going to make me look like a d***? As i have previously said, all the information is a quick google search away as HJ just demonstrated, so im not sure why you are pretending the information is super secret hard to find. My post in response was going to be a lot like HJ's.

I'm also not sure why you are trying to be a d*** by attempting to make me look like a d*** nor why you keep including these insults in your post.
02:12pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1590 posts
So I like the way your post answers exactly zero of my questions.

I never said the information was hard to find, a key principle of justice is that it be open, just that you, specifically you, didn't know where to look.

thank you for confirming you've not read it.

we can now dismiss your opinion.
02:23pm 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1196 posts
So I like the way your post answers exactly zero of my questions.


HJ answered them and posted a link to an ABC news article once again confirming the information is only a quick google search away.

never said the information was hard to find


You were implying it was despite me noting that you can easily go to any major news outlet for the information via a google search.

just that you, specifically you, didn't know where to look.


Lol what? I'm the one posting the information and telling you that you can go to any media outlet and get the information or do a quick google search.


You seem to have a screw loose Pete.
02:32pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1591 posts
so to draw this back to the point.

had you, when you were saying Hicks was a piece s*** who got off on a technicality, read the actual judgement?

the answer appears to be no. Nothing you've typed suggests otherwise.

my actual implication, for the record, was that despite the simplicity of looking up the case, you hadn't, but felt qualified to forward an opinion on it.

A state of affairs comprehensively to now be proven true.

to be clear, pointing to any other post's ease of obtainment, doesn't add any weight to the claim you were "informed" when you made your statement.

to put this in gamer terms you've lost little man.
03:08pm 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1197 posts

so to draw this back to the point.

had you, when you were saying Hicks was a piece s*** who got off on a technicality, read the actual judgement?
YES. hence this post http://www.ausgamers.com/forums/general/thread.php/3488653?p=056#post3501297

I didn't make up all that stuff off the top of my head, i was clearly reading my information from somewhere. I'v told you at least 5 times now that this information IS FREELY AVAILABLE via a quick Google search(Which HurricaneJim demonstrated also). You just don't seem to understand.

You are being extremely obtuse or just plain trolling
03:18pm 20/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22371 posts
it's not that hicks got off on a technicality, its just that the entire foreign terrorist situation had not until after 2001 been contemplated by lawmakers.

objectively, hicks is a piece of s*** who wanted to kill americans and australians. legally, there was no law against doing that from afghanistan because hwas not a member of a national army.

defending hicks as a good person is stupid. he is a scumbag who wanted to kill aussies. he should still be rotting in gitmo or preferably be dust ground into a road in afghanistan somewhere.
03:22pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1592 posts
You post a broken link as evidence you've read a judgment you obviously haven't.

Have you read david hicks appeal judgment yes or no?
03:22pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1593 posts
it's not that hicks got off on a technicality
Hicks was found not guilty of the charge "providing material support to terrorism" and that was only on a technicality.
03:26pm 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1198 posts
defending hicks as a good person is stupid. he is scumbag who wanted to kill aussies. he should still be rotting in gitmo or preferably be dust ground into a road in afghanistan somewhere.


+1
03:30pm 20/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1594 posts
so the answer is no then brool.

You, as usual, have no idea what you are talking about, but feel justified in forwarding your opinion.

Why am I not, in any way, shocked?

Here is why Brool < Vash

at the very least Vash has a tangential correlation with reality, you don't. I assume that's why his posts stand and yours don't.

You don't even pretend to have any idea what you're talking about and complain when your opinion isn't taken seriously.

you've claimed expertise over areas as diverse as macro economics, versus international criminal law.

Even if I grant you: you work in a factory making s***, which i don't. You've zero comprehension of what makes current law.
03:41pm 20/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10367 posts
Infi is amazingly not completely off the rudder here.

Hicks was a nutbag who was doing bad stuff. We should have locked him up for being a nutbag before he got that far, and helped him to be the gardener he claims he wants to be!

What infi won't agree with ...
What America did was really f***ed up. You can't make law up in hindsight, oh and randomly torture people. America declared it was a war, then the war laws should apply. Torture methods being used were explicitly banned under conventions both the US and Australia had agreed to. But wait it's not a war ... it's some other thing ... lets use the word terror to make it all ok

By ignoring those conventions, as the "world police" so can everyone else. It's a precedent. ISIS/ISIL can do whatever there can't be a war crime trial to bring anyone to justice because the good guys dun f***ed up and acted like the bad guys. In fact ISIS have probably been less f***ed up than some of the enhanced interrogation techniques that got employed by the US

You also can't lock people up indefinitely... like they did with Muslims that anyone said might be bad (including making false claims about your neighbor, because they held awesome parties or whatever you do in the dunes) you know like people who illegal enter via boat... but people who overstay after coming on a plane ... they are fine!

Can we please get a statesman for a PM, and can we get a government with a backbone.

And death to the grey men and people like Credlin (grey man * 10, in a dress)
09:20pm 20/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1199 posts
obes, he was just on a holiday mate.

http://i.imgur.com/r5Qffpd.jpg
09:32pm 20/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22373 posts
What infi won't agree with ...
What America did was really f***ed up. You can't make law up in hindsight, oh and randomly torture people.


I agree and disagree, respectively. The Nuremburg war crime trials established that war criminals can be held accountable for war cries on the basis that the crimes are objectively offensive. There was no law against what the Nazis did because it was war but they soon made laws up and charged them.

I don't have a problem with making an act criminal when it is objectively offensive, and that would extend to fighting for a declared terrorist organisation or an organisation which has explicit values which include harming the country of the citizen's origin or their ally. That is what the overseas fighters legislation before the Australian parliament is all about.

What Hicks did was inherently offensive to Australian and American society and he ought to have known that either of those governments would want to punish him for his actions. One cannot join an army intent on destroying a particular country and then expect that country to give them a parade.

Torture on the other hand is a mater of degree. I definitely don't think there is an obligation to make an enemy combatant comfortable. Short periods of sleep deprivation and light immersion and extended periods of interrogation can all be used legitimately to weaken the resolve of people who otherwise would give the questioner nothing. Prisoner humiliation (Abu Graib), and physical torture like waterboarding or hosing or standing for extended periods of time is unacceptable.

The US could have made life a lot easier for themselves by preparing the retrospective criminal legislation quickly and holding the hearings quickly just like Nuremburg. Interrogation is ok (including making a captive uncomfortable) but torture is not.

If a terrorist group does not want to wear a uniform, should their captured soldiers be entitled to protection of the Geneva convention? When the national government knows full well the terrorist org will not respect those same rules? It is an interesting ethical debate.
09:49pm 20/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2150 posts
I agree and disagree, respectively. The Nuremburg war crime trials established that war criminals can be held accountable for war cries on the basis that the crimes are objectively offensive. There was no law against what the Nazis did because it was war but they soon made laws up and charged them.


Except for the fact that the Nuremberg Trials ignored the principle Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali ( "[There exists] no crime [and] no punishment without a pre-existing penal law [appertaining]"), in article 19 The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence." and in article 21 Art.21 "The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof.". It's interesting to note that the Nullum crimen principle had been part of the Bavarian Criminal Code since 1813 and just so happens to be the jurisdiction where the Nuremberg Trials were located.

The term "objectively offensive" only relates to harassment aka bullying. To that extent justice is only served when the guilty are punished in a way that carefully and conscientiously considers their criminal errors according to the provisions of valid law at the time of the offense. Your whole premise is a sanctimonious fraud.


What Hicks did was inherently offensive to Australian and American society and he ought to have known that either of those governments would want to punish him for his actions. One cannot join an army intent on destroying a particular country and then expect that country to give them a parade.


What Hicks did was not illegal. What was done to him is illegal.

Torture on the other hand is a mater of degree. I definitely don't think there is an obligation to make an enemy combatant comfortable. Short periods of sleep deprivation and light immersion and extended periods of interrogation can all be used legitimately to weaken the resolve of people who otherwise would give the questioner nothing. Prisoner humiliation (Abu Graib), and physical torture like waterboarding or hosing or standing for extended periods of time is unacceptable.

The US could have made life a lot easier for themselves by preparing the retrospective criminal legislation quickly and holding the hearings quickly just like Nuremburg. Interrogation is ok (including making a captive uncomfortable) but torture is not.


Torture is torture, there is no degree. In our democracy we do not torture.

If a terrorist group does not want to wear a uniform, should their captured soldiers be entitled to protection of the Geneva convention? When the national government knows full well the terrorist org will not respect those same rules? It is an interesting ethical debate.


Yes, they are defined as irregular militia.

It's not a choice justifying a decision because someone else doesn't. It's a standard enacted, expected and maintained regardless of what a terrorist organisation does or doesn't do. What we do defines us to others.





I apologise for my lack of use of irregardless in this post.
12:24am 21/02/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
235 posts
There was no law against what the Nazis did
~ Infi

Yes there was. There really, really was. In fact, that's one of the reasons why the trials were held in Germany... that's where Nuremberg is.

'Crimes against humanity' and 'war crimes' were not invented at Nuremberg, and the Geneva conventions go back a fair while into the 19th century.

There is nothing stopping the US from applying the Convention to captured terrorists. Not wearing a uniform or claiming "they started it" is not a good reason... and certainly not an ethical reason because then it would be an ethical reason to not act ethically.

Uniform or not, they are called al qaeda - a terrorist organisation that commits acts of war based upon the shared principles of individuals. In fact, they were so well organised that the US had to conquer 2 countries just to take them on.

And now we have this so-called 'Islamic State', which has bureaucratic control of a territory and even sometimes wears a uniform. These top fellows must be worth of the protection of the Geneva Convention!

But even if it is just random individuals who happen to want the same thing in blowing up parts of the US, not having a uniform or representing a recognised state are technicalities. POW treatment is based on principles that will make us all happy, and principles always trump technicalities.

There was no law against what the Nazis did
~ Infi

you need to put about 400% more effort into learning stuff.
01:27am 21/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7093 posts
The Pascoemeter says 'Scary Joe' is the boy who cried wolf.



08:54am 21/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24900 posts
There was no law against what the Nazis did
There is no law against murder genocide.
10:12am 21/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1595 posts
defending hicks as a good person is stupid. he is scumbag who wanted to kill aussies.


Nobody is saying hicks is a particularly nice person, though I'd park him the naive idiot camp rather than the nazi super killer camp.

He went an awfully long way away from any aussies for someone bent on killing them.

The statement of facts from the case has him selling all his al qaeda kit and being apprehended by the northern alliance in a taxi trying to leave the war zone.

Hardly the actions of a frothing zealot trying to kill as many aussies as he could.

Anywho, like I have repeatedly said, I'm not saying Hicks is a nice guy or otherwise, it's not relevant. What is relevant is that the crime he was charged with didn't exist when he did the acts, and the elements of the crime don't strike me as something especially dangerous to our way of life. On those grounds, it is difficult to justify a retrospective law, and his six year detainment without charge in a principled way. Saying he said scary s*** in a foreign country and stood beside a tank for a week, isn't enough in my books. Comparing it to the Nuremberg trials is a tad absurd.
11:33am 21/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20471 posts
An investigative report by the Weekend Australian today reveals shocking developments from within Prime Minister Tony Abbott's office, as the report claims Abbott proposed a go-it-alone invasion of Iraq in November, with a suggestion to deploy 3500 Australian military troops to confront the Islamic State.


http://www.pedestrian.tv/news/arts-and-culture/report-reveals-tony-abbott-suggested-a-solo-austra/ab72fdc7-babf-41f7-84da-ee887b87dec9.htm
11:40am 21/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1596 posts
He's a worry.
11:53am 21/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24901 posts
Is there anything else to do right now in this thread except laugh at the hilarious incompetence of the current government and to make fun of the complete idiots who voted them in?
12:09pm 21/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1200 posts
It's from the Australian thus it's a MURDOCH media conspiracy.
03:34pm 21/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22376 posts


An investigative report by the Weekend Australian today reveals shocking developments from within Prime Minister Tony Abbott's office, as the report claims Abbott proposed a go-it-alone invasion of Iraq in November, with a suggestion to deploy 3500 Australian military troops to confront the Islamic State.



pfffft. come back when there is some evidence. i heard a report pave guzzles alien semen.
04:07pm 21/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4344 posts
06:26pm 21/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24902 posts



pfffft. come back when there is some evidence. i heard a report pave guzzles alien semen.
When you post one of your infi-isms and someone asks for evidence - rargle gargle it's a well known fact you're an idiot for not knowing it froth froth froth.

When someone posts something completely credible that hurts your ridiculously extreme right wing ideals - where's the evidence? I need to see it! Which in itself is fair enough - except that when it's posted you'll either completely ignore it or come up with some asinine bulls*** that in your mind dismisses it.

You're a joke.
07:37pm 21/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22379 posts
The Defence chiefs denied that it was ever discussed. But lets go with the UNSOURCED rumour.
07:52pm 21/02/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20474 posts
i heard a report pave guzzles alien semen.


I cannot confirm nor deny these reports
08:02pm 21/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24903 posts
Either it's true, or it isn't and there people within the party willing to make up sensational lies because *reasons*. Kind of reminds me of the time you said the adults are back in charge and predicted a new golden age. You dummy.
08:06pm 21/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22380 posts


I cannot confirm nor deny these reports


at least get someone to come out in support of you.
08:12pm 21/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4357 posts
http://i.imgur.com/cggJMPp.png

Courtesy of Simon Hackett. The "smart bad people" part.. You don't have to be that smart to use a VPN. The word will spread among crims to use VPNs in light of metadata and it'll be useless for catching crims/terrorists.
10:50am 23/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1202 posts
I think it's time to start educating the population on how to use a VPN.
11:08am 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17009 posts
Plot Twist: Yanis Varoufakis, the current Finance Minister for Greece, previously worked at Valve as Economist in Residence (whatever that means).

Apparently he is tinkering with the idea of using a bitcoin like system as a supplement to the current currency system.
11:23am 23/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22386 posts
Use whatever system you want. Money is worth nothing if there is no wealth behind it.
11:39am 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17010 posts
Yeah, Varoufakis believes exactly that infi. He doesn't believe a cyptocurrency will ever be a industrial strength country powering currency, however he does see it as a cheaper way to do certain transactions that are particularly relevant to struggling euro nations .. such as Greece.

He seems like quite the interesting fellow.
11:46am 23/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1203 posts
Plot Twist: Yanis Varoufakis, the current Finance Minister for Greece, previously worked at Valve as Economist in Residence (whatever that means).

Apparently he is tinkering with the idea of using a bitcoin like system as a supplement to the current currency system.


He did a lot of work with TF2's in-game trading and economy. He wrote a valve blog while working for the company which was a pretty interesting read.

http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/

He's definitely not a far-left wing socialist/communist like the rest of the government he is a part of which would be pretty relieving for Greeks.
11:47am 23/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10369 posts
The answer is to ban VPNs and SSL ... actually lets make it a crime to encrypt anything. What could possibly go wrong?
01:59pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17025 posts
If aren't committing a crime then you must not have anything to hide. Therefor if you are hiding something we must consider it a crime. Say YES! to outlawing Encryption!

02:21pm 23/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2151 posts
If aren't committing a crime then you must not have anything to hide. Therefor if you are hiding something we must consider it a crime. Say YES! to outlawing Encryption!



So would that relate to all secrecy or just private.....
04:00pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17028 posts
All secrecy. Encryption can only be used by the government and the military. Why, you got something to hide Jim of the Hurricanes? I ammend my idea, now if people are hiding that they are hiding something that should be considered a Crime against Australia. We are in an Era of Terrorism, we can't let people like HurricaneJim hide their suspicious activity behind fancy computer metadatas and interthings.
Everyone must have transparent data, except for any Liberal Government!
06:10pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4369 posts
police state here we come.

http://i.imgur.com/48Umf3I.png
06:51pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1916 posts
^ F***! Abbott would be the worst knob we've ever had as a PM. This is the worst government since federation. Even worse than Billy McMahon and his government.
07:08pm 23/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24908 posts
Is it the worst democratically elected government ever?
07:19pm 23/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2152 posts
^ F***! Abbott would be the worst knob we've ever had as a PM. This is the worst government since federation. Even worse than Billy McMahon and his government.


Ok SFB just don't bust a valve over it.....ok sick joke but still...


All secrecy. Encryption can only be used by the government and the military. Why, you got something to hide Jim of the Hurricanes? I ammend my idea, now if people are hiding that they are hiding something that should be considered a Crime against Australia. We are in an Era of Terrorism, we can't let people like HurricaneJim hide their suspicious activity behind fancy computer metadatas and interthings.
Everyone must have transparent data, except for any Liberal Government!


even with transdatametas u can't toch tis;

07:24pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1917 posts
Ok SFB just don't bust a valve over it.
Tis hard not to when we have such a d******* government and PM. Don't worry I'll take my medication and turn on the TV and watch Time Team and calm down.
07:41pm 23/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22389 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds - boats are stopped, carbon tax gone, plan to stop the debt (which was blocked by Labor). They could have cut harder on welfare but you can't win em all.

Here's hoping they start addressing workplace regulation, privatise the ABC and Australia Post, and shut down the Human Rights Commission next. Repeal section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act would be a bonus.

No more Anti-terror or snooping laws thanks.
07:51pm 23/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24909 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds - boats are stopped, carbon tax gone, plan to stop the debt (which was blocked by Labor). They could have cut harder on welfare but you can't win em all.

Here's hoping they start addressing workplace regulation, privatise the ABC and Australia Post, and shut down the Human Rights Commission next. Repeal section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act would be a bonus.

No more Anti-terror or snooping laws thanks.
Poe's law.

Spoiler:
As in, if someone wanted to be funny and do a really good impersonation of a dumb racist who is completely devoid of a clue they would write exactly what you did
08:05pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1918 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds
Yeah yeah, go and steal some old ladies milk money as I know it would make you happy.
08:08pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17029 posts

which was blocked by Labor


It was blocked by more than labor. It was blocked by the f*****g Senate. Thankfully so, the idea this government tried to put across where incredibly unfair and potentially detrimental to the economy.


08:09pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17030 posts
I seriously question Joe Hockey's aptitude for being a federal treasurer, what qualifications and experience does he actually have that would give him a firm grasp of national and international economics? I know he has a wife that may have experience in that, does he ask her what to do? (lol wouldn't Tonez love that)
08:14pm 23/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1600 posts
Why do I get the feeling that the 18C stuff and the hate speech stuff is some kind of bazzaro far right wing agenda to make sure they can say what ever they want about non-whites, while at the same time branding speech (likely to becoming from non-whites) directed against them as hate speech.

Most of the s*** Abbott says could be hate speech if you replaced "isil/isis" with "australia."
09:59pm 23/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10371 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds - ... carbon tax gone ...


Because our billionaire miners need a tax break (I probably pay more tax than most of them). Does Santoros have some mining shares?
10:41pm 23/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2153 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds - boats are stopped, carbon tax gone, plan to stop the debt (which was blocked by Labor). They could have cut harder on welfare but you can't win em all.


Yeah, cause $36bn in superannuation tax concessions for the rich and $10bn subsidies for mining magnates wasn't in the budget that they could have cut. Instead they still go on about a budget crisis whilst attempting to building roads that no one will use. Pay $11bn for the copper wire we used to own and have an NBN that is no longer classified as broadband.

Sometimes the good even gets better...if the question is taken on notice.
11:28pm 23/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1208 posts
I'm pretty happy with Feds - boats are stopped, carbon tax gone, plan to stop the debt (which was blocked by Labor). They could have cut harder on welfare but you can't win em all.

Here's hoping they start addressing workplace regulation, privatise the ABC and Australia Post, and shut down the Human Rights Commission next. Repeal section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act would be a bonus.

No more Anti-terror or snooping laws thanks.


I think the Feds have done pretty s***, but for real reasons not "omg Tony abbott has multiple flags behind him WORST PRIME NINISTER EVER"

They have increased spending, increased taxes, back down on 18C, planning data retention and various other privacy breaking and authoritarian laws all in the name of terrorism.

They have been a let down so far. I won't be voting for them again, a new party will have to save us from the debt and deficit disaster.
11:33pm 23/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11568 posts
Two weeks ago the Coalition trailed 43-57;
today’s Newspoll show a tightening to 47-53 per cent.

But Mr Shorten took a big personal hit, with the percentage of people satisfied with the way he was doing his job as Opposition Leader falling to a record low of 35 per cent, down from 42 per cent.
Those dissatisfied rose to 49 per cent.

http://www.news.com.au/national/newspoll-abbott-government-primary-vote-rises-bill-shortens-personal-approval-rating-drops-to-new-low/story-e6frfkp9-1227236241859

Looks like the Adults are back in control.
No more stupid s***.

11:50pm 23/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1209 posts
shorten is wooden and robotic when he speaks, and it's painful to watch him try. It's obvious he's been getting speech training.
11:53pm 23/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24912 posts


I think the Feds have done pretty s***, but for real reasons not "omg Tony abbott has multiple flags behind him WORST PRIME NINISTER EVER"

They have increased spending, increased taxes, back down on 18C, planning data retention and various other privacy breaking and authoritarian laws all in the name of terrorism.

They have been a let down so far. I won't be voting for them again, a new party will have to save us from the debt and deficit disaster.
This is a metaphor for your life isn't it? The amount of frothing you subjected us to with the LNP and then their inevitable failure which in turn is your failure too. Then instead of learning from your mistakes you just double down with even more failure. You've been doing this your whole life haven't you?
12:11am 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1210 posts
No no no, you are suppose to write your usual tired old "you live in a basement" etc etc troll. I personally preferred the "OMG DOORRR" trolling.
12:20am 24/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10375 posts
Shorten is a useless phallic object. But so is Abbott.

Pugilist but real world ignorant d*** or Union D*** (who has LNP relatives)... what an awesome choice! Grey or Grey... I know Grey! But not that grey!
12:22am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4371 posts
Scott Ludlam for PM
12:27am 24/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24913 posts
No no no, you are suppose to write your usual tired old "you live in a basement" etc etc troll. I personally preferred the "OMG DOORRR" trolling.
What makes the whole basement thing tired? As long as you keep making your absurd posts that only a basement dwelling misanthrope could make they'll continue to stay fresh. I know they get to you because you're starting to make up lies about attending conferences and bumping into people on the street and I think you may have even mentioned your made up job again recently.

Which brings me to another point. Well a question really. Why do you post? Do you actually think anything you ever say has any merit? I guess you do. But if you're being honest with yourself, do you think it might be your narcissistic personality disorder fooling you into thinking that way? Because I'm here to tell you with the utmost certainty that you speak nothing but total garbage. Every single post you make just makes you look dumber and dumber. More and more worthless. All you're doing is delivering schadenfreude. It's gotten to the stage where I'll see you as the last poster and I know I'll have some stupid s*** I can laugh at. So thanks.
12:52am 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1211 posts
Most of your posts are off-topic and consist of you attenpting to psycho-analysis people(to no avail)

I'm surprised you didn't get into the psychology field instead of being a Paul Blart mall cop.
01:31am 24/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24914 posts
See trying to make fun of me for being gainfully employed when you're not is tired.

I've never claimed to be any sort of expert. I just comment on what I see in your posts. I don't think I'm that far off base personally. Again I'll ask - why do you post? It hurts your position and it hurts you. Want to know why I think you post? Because you are in fact a basement dwelling loser, and no one ever pays any attention to you in real life. People pay attention here though. Only because you are so extraordinarily f***ed up that it's impossible not to. You're willing to settle for negative attention because you know it's the only attention you'll ever receive from now until you die alone without a single person giving a f*** let alone noticing.
01:48am 24/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1919 posts
Shorten is a useless phallic object.

Union D***
So which is it: fighting for workers rights and the betterment of those less well off or fighting to keep the majority of a nation's wealth in a handful of the population by exploiting everyone else do you find the better ideal to hold?

shorten is wooden and robotic when he speaks, and it's painful to watch him try. It's obvious he's been getting speech training.
As opposed to the monkey we have now leading the country that can't string a sentence together. Please point to one individual in government that without first lying can articulate coherently anything that resembles intelligent thought.
02:16am 24/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10376 posts
SFB unions might be good. Unfortunately there is a lot of people involved with unions who are as useful as 4 sided wheels.
08:36am 24/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7100 posts
Can we all just agree that Tonez and Kingslayer are both s***.

Both sides need to change leaders for the good of the country.
08:43am 24/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
38987 posts
saw clive this morning saying australias debt if a furphy, not worth getting worked up about.

what would clive know about money anyway.
08:43am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4376 posts
The debt was nothing to worry about under Labor, they had revenue streams sorted. Wayne swan is a smart bloke.
The libs don't know what to do with debt, they've killed confidence, cut taxes and them blame Labor for not passing saving measures. Well, shouldn't have cut that mining / carbon tax eh
08:54am 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22392 posts
$13b in yearly interest payments. We could fund the boondoggle NBN in 4 years without Labor's debt.

It is the yearly cost of the NDIS.

That is what happens when financial derelicts go on a cash splash - we can't have nice things.
09:59am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4377 posts
That's the thing, if you try to keep a surplus you're not going to be able to invest in actual 21st century infrastructure like the NBN. The libs call roads, infrastructure of the 21st century. lol to that.
10:19am 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17036 posts

Labor's debt


Mmm, it's not Labor's debt, it's Australia's Debt. Both major governments have had a significant hand in its making. As you would know, having a debt is quite normal for any 1st world country.
I'm also pretty sure you would understand that as long as a country's growth is outpacing it's inflation it has room to run at a deficit. Ideally you want that deficit to be no faster than the rate of growth.
This is why America can pump money out with QE and still retain a strong currency, they are growing faster than the devaluation of their money printing making a net positive for the their currency.

So stop spreading misinformation about 'Labors' Debt, when it is Australia's, it is just as much Liberal's as Labor's.

If Australia's debt and deficit was a real problem, our bond market would reflect that, and it doesn't.


10:21am 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22393 posts
so what have we actually invested with Labor's 300bn of debt? I am very interested to hear this.
10:23am 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17037 posts

so what have we actually invested with Labor's 300bn of debt?


Australia's 300bn of debt? Well the health and wellbeing of our people is one of those investments and I think a pretty good one. That will pay itself off in the long run.
10:24am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4378 posts
We invested in the NBN, and insurance in ensuring Australia didn't have a recession during the GFC. The alternative was to not spend any money, and see what happens. Not the kind of risk to take when the world's financial markets were going down the s******.

Considering the minimal debt, it was a worthy expense. Now we just need to put the mining & carbon taxes back in, cut some concessions and we're all sweet.

Hockey has doubled the deficit, cut taxes, doesn't want to touch concessions or corporate welfare, nor chase multi national corporation tax evasions like he said he would. Instead, pushing cuts to the less well off. Poor form.
10:31am 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17039 posts
That's possibly because Hockey doesn't actually know how to be a treasurer for a nation. He has Bach degree in Arts and Law, so not really relevant to running the economy of a country. He did work as a banking and finance Lawyer, so I guess he has had some exposure of economics. Maybe that's why he is treasurer, it's the closest the Libs have got for the job?
10:40am 24/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11569 posts
We invested in the NBN, and insurance in ensuring Australia didn't have a recession during the GFC. The alternative was to not spend any money, and see what happens.


Shorten has respond to questions about the Debt by declaring he will spend more.

It does appear that Federal Labors answer to any financial problem is to spend more. And when there isnt a problem Labor still wants to increase Taxes and spend more.
11:27am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4380 posts
Well that's actually a good thing. Spending is better than austerity measures. increase taxation to accommodate that extra spending, instead of cutting taxes and increasing spending like hockey does. The kind of spending hockey is doing is not benefiting the economy either.
11:36am 24/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2154 posts
so what have we actually invested with Labor's 300bn of debt? I am very interested to hear this.


Please show us where this 300bn of debt is? Or stop spreading lies of this d******* fantasy.

Here is what the MYEFO stated;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/linkableblob/5967924/data/myedo-chart-four-data.png

Now cut $36bn of superannuation tax subsidies for the rich and $10 of subsides for the mining magnates and what to you have?

Very pissed off rich people and a budget with a minuscule deficit.
11:43am 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1212 posts
Please point to one individual in government that without first lying can articulate coherently anything that resembles intelligent thought.


Julie Bishop
Malcolm Turnbull
Cheistopher Pyne.

In opposition:
Anthony Albanese
11:47am 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4382 posts
And that's how Labor went to s***. They were a good government, but the rich declared war via advertising propaganda & the media, leading to the knifing from the propaganda's effects on the polls.
11:47am 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22394 posts
Please show us where this 300bn of debt is? Or stop spreading lies of this d******* fantasy.


I'll take option A thanks :D

According to the 2014-15 budget, Australia's interest-bearing liabilities in the year to June 2014 are expected to reach $358 billion. About 97 per cent of these liabilities are Commonwealth Government Securities (CGS). These are Treasury bonds, Treasury indexed bonds and Treasury notes.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/joe-hockey-one-billion-a-month-interest-fact-check/5478480

you're a real derp
11:48am 24/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2155 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/joe-hockey-one-billion-a-month-interest-fact-check/5478480

you're a real derp


Yep, cherrypick d******* and while you're at it how come it went from $600bn to $300bn in 12 pages of this thread. A CGS is a projection of debt and not due for anywhere up to 10 years.
12:18pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17044 posts
I find it quite interesting that the debt rate increased markedly since about ... oohh 2008/2009. Now labor was in power at that point, only just. Liberals had a long run before that.

What other big event happened during that time that would have any impact on a country's debt status.. hmm I'm no expert but Murdoch press tells me there was something called a Global Financial Crisis, who's affects we are still feeling today. Now, from what I understand most major countries around the globe have markedly increased debt levels since that time.

It seems to me that any competent government in power during that time would have been forced to scale up debt during that time and the following years afterwards. Labor just happened to be the government in power at the time, I can tell you know, that if Liberal were in power we would be in a very similar position and that is the cold hard truth of the matter, and infi, you know it.
12:28pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1213 posts
Lmao, I can't believe HJ just tried to pretend that the governments debt DIDNT exist.

He just went full Labor. Never go full Labor.
12:28pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17045 posts
Well he does have a bit of a point, the type of debt of a government bond isn't the same as a mortgage debt.
You don't slowly pay off a bond,you pay interest on it, then when maturity comes you pay the cash value of it to the holder. So a $20,000,000 bond now is worth, in 10 years, roughly $17,000,000 of today's cash at a tiny 1.5% annual inflation rate. Unless it is a indexed bond. Is that correct?

Now, there is no reason why you can't issue new bonds to cover the payout, in full or part, of an old bond. Provided that your country's growth rate allows for it. I believe this is one of the major drawbacks of a recession. It means your bond payments can get more expensive and issuing new bonds to cover old bonds is a far more expensive endevour.

So our countries debt levels of $350,000,000 isn't really that big of a deal, as the global market seems to indicate. It is more than serviceable.

Could it possibly be one of these tricky d***y tactics the current government uses where it blows something way out of proportion in an attempt to gain political advantage? Ohh I think so.

12:39pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17046 posts
Since we are all looking at Australia's debt and hence Australia's bond status. Please take not that during the years of 2025-2035 we have low levels of bond repayments due. About half our current rate.

That gives us room to issue more bonds that mature around those times when some of our current bonds mature in the next 3 years or so. Isn't that handy, that means we get into MORE debt without it actually being any more of a drain on our economy than it already is. Hot damn.

Alternatively we can skimp on our current budget, tighten the reins, drag our economy down, make poor people suffer some more (lets just do it for laughs eh), increase our future public health burden by reducing health spending now, make sure we grow that cycle of poverty just so we can say 'haaayy look we have slightly less bond interest payments for a couple of years, yayyyy'

01:05pm 24/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1601 posts
Well large numbers devoid of context are hardly tricky d***y. It's close to lying by omission.
01:08pm 24/02/15 Permalink
taggs
6377 posts
A CGS is a projection of debt and not due for anywhere up to 10 years.


lol
01:30pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17047 posts
Don't forget that around 2025-2035 Baby Boomer ages will be hitting the 80's and 90's, this means that our age pension costs will start to significantly reduce around this time.
01:32pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17048 posts
Taggs, welcome back, please take some time to school us all, myself in particular. It would be muchly appreciated.

01:33pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22395 posts



Yep, cherrypick d******* and while you're at it how come it went from $600bn to $300bn in 12 pages of this thread. A CGS is a projection of debt and not due for anywhere up to 10 years.


hey you asked for evidence of $300b of government debt and I supplied it. no need to get mad.
01:40pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1215 posts
People get mad when they are supplied with the inconvenient truth.
01:42pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17049 posts
About $110Billion of that debt will be gone by the end of 2017, new debt will come online, but of the current ~$350, $110billion of it will be done.
01:46pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1216 posts
I love how you are trying to imply that government debt is going to decrease.

As we all know, the current government has increased spending and there is projected deficits for the next decade.

The latest report is that we will have 1 trillion in debt in just 20 years because both parties have no intention of cutting spending and infact have plans to increase it.
01:50pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17050 posts

I love how you are trying to imply that government debt is going to decrease.


O no, I haven't said our debt will decrease. I have said that it is OK for it to increase.

Yeah projected deficits for the next 12 years, 2015 now 12 years is 2027, around the time the baby boomers are .. retiring from life. I also showed there was room in our future bond requirements for new bonds to be issued.

A serious question is, will Australia enter into a significant recession during the next 10-20 years? Of course that is pretty hard to answer. Is Australia's current debt levels acceptable if we were to hit a 5-10 year recession?
01:56pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1217 posts
Yeh 1 trillion in debt is fine, no need to cut debt or reduce over spending at all.

Is Australia's current debt levels acceptable if we were to hit a 5-10 year recession?


No way.
02:07pm 24/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1602 posts
Yeh 1 trillion in debt is fine, no need to cut debt or reduce over spending at all.


In 20 years, why exactly wouldn't that amount of debt be fine in 20 years?
02:58pm 24/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2156 posts
Well he does have a bit of a point, the type of debt of a government bond isn't the same as a mortgage debt.
You don't slowly pay off a bond,you pay interest on it, then when maturity comes you pay the cash value of it to the holder. So a $20,000,000 bond now is worth, in 10 years, roughly $17,000,000 of today's cash at a tiny 1.5% annual inflation rate. Unless it is a indexed bond. Is that correct?

Now, there is no reason why you can't issue new bonds to cover the payout, in full or part, of an old bond. Provided that your country's growth rate allows for it. I believe this is one of the major drawbacks of a recession. It means your bond payments can get more expensive and issuing new bonds to cover old bonds is a far more expensive endevour.

So our countries debt levels of $350,000,000 isn't really that big of a deal, as the global market seems to indicate. It is more than serviceable.

Could it possibly be one of these tricky d***y tactics the current government uses where it blows something way out of proportion in an attempt to gain political advantage? Ohh I think so.



Correct.
Since we are all looking at Australia's debt and hence Australia's bond status. Please take not that during the years of 2025-2035 we have low levels of bond repayments due. About half our current rate.

That gives us room to issue more bonds that mature around those times when some of our current bonds mature in the next 3 years or so. Isn't that handy, that means we get into MORE debt without it actually being any more of a drain on our economy than it already is. Hot damn.

Alternatively we can skimp on our current budget, tighten the reins, drag our economy down, make poor people suffer some more (lets just do it for laughs eh), increase our future public health burden by reducing health spending now, make sure we grow that cycle of poverty just so we can say 'haaayy look we have slightly less bond interest payments for a couple of years, yayyyy'



Yep, you got it. infi and brool don't even have it by the tail...


O no, I haven't said our debt will decrease. I have said that it is OK for it to increase.

Yeah projected deficits for the next 12 years, 2015 now 12 years is 2027, around the time the baby boomers are .. retiring from life. I also showed there was room in our future bond requirements for new bonds to be issued.


When all the boomers are dead, including me btw, there won't be as much spent on welfare in the budget. Except that the LNP haven't thought forward about what is actually required to keep the economy out of recession.

A serious question is, will Australia enter into a significant recession during the next 10-20 years? Of course that is pretty hard to answer. Is Australia's current debt levels acceptable if we were to hit a 5-10 year recession?


Yes we will because one side of politics is still stuck in the 20th Century. All they do is dig up things and build roads. They have idea of what the future is bringing because conservatives aren't forward thinkers.
03:31pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17051 posts
Brool, it's best to look at our Net debt interest repayments as a % of GDP.

Which is at the moment about 1%, in 2019 they are expected to be ... about 1%.

They once got as high as ~3% back in 1988. So yeah $1 Trillion in debt sounds like a lot, however the debt repayments on that isn't really a great deal higher than what it currently is, it may go up to 3% again.
03:41pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17052 posts
Brool, is it too much of a hit to the ego to accept you've been hoodwinked by this current government?

What you should be focusing on is this:

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Egan_Soos_08.png

Private Household debt is at an incredibly high level. It is this debt, this private debt, that is what is choking Australia at the moment. This is why spending is low, this is why interest rate drops are NOT manifesting increased spending.

Our houses are incredibly expensive.

If you want to 'fix' the budget you need greater tax revenue. You accept we can't just increase taxes, so we need people to spend. If we need people to spend we need to get a hold on the housing situation.

Roads are NOT going to do s*** for spending, they are not going to make houses more affordable. They are NOT going to reduce household debt.

Enter high speed rail, allowing land further out from city centers to be used as viable places for residence. Increase the supply and keep a steady demand and what happens? Prices drop, or what would be best they hit a steady state and don't appreciate much, allow wages growth to bring housing to a more affordable level. Since we have room for higher public debt, it may be a good idea to start building it now. This also translates into more jobs and helps with the increasing unemployment, with the ultimate goal of unlocking all the wealth caught up in super expensive housing. We do have to be careful though, if we do that we may end up driving the Aussie $ up and hurting our export businesses like mining and agriculture.

Once you do that, and people start spending more, THEN you will see an increase in tax revenue and budget surpluses.

On a side note when the baby boomers start ascending, their properties will partially be sold off by the inheritors, at least I hope, increasing the supply of housing at the time.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:57:39 24/Feb/15
03:55pm 24/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11571 posts
Theres too many kinds of Debt.

I demand a consolidated/everything debt and it has to be a Graph.
03:55pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22396 posts
i am not interested in what the debt markets think. debt markets (like credit card companies) are always looking to expand your limit. they know that, at the end of the day, a country with many riches and guns to take wealth from its citizens will always have the capacity to repay its debts.

$350b of debt has been accrued for no lasting benefit (aside from some overpriced school halls) due to successive multiple budget deficits. we now also have a $1b/month interest bill that could be used for delivering services to our citizens on a sustainable basis.

by the logic of referring to what debt markets think, we could run debt to $700b and have A $2b/month interest bill? it doesn't not mean that incurring that debt is a good idea. spend $700b on a fun time and have a $24b/year interest bill??? what happens when/if interest rates go up? instead of being our own country the markets will have us by the balls.

pissing money away is now economic wizardry apparently.

Private Household debt is at an incredibly high level. It is this debt, this private debt, that is what is choking Australia at the moment.


personal debt is acquired by a person through their free choice and assessment of their personal risk. it also chops up the specific risk of default into a million bite sized pieces - that's why banks love creaming the home loan market. if personal debt was a problem banks would have bad debts due to default and borrowers would be filing for bankruptcy and downsizing their obligations - neither of which is occurring. (maybe aussies like to have it all).
03:55pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17053 posts

we now also have a $1b/month interest bill that could be used for delivering services to our citizens on a sustainable basis.


That actually reads:


we now also have a 1% of GDP /month interest Bill...


03:59pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1626 posts
what happens when/if interest rates go up? instead of being our own country the markets will have us by the balls.

lol

Hey guys our gov borrows money the way you do from a retail bank.
04:03pm 24/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1603 posts
infi, the virtue of the programs the money is spent on, and the serviceability of the debt are distinct issues and you know they are.

The precise thing that everyone is getting shirty about is the needless running together of the two issues by abbott and hockey et al.

If we can service the debt, then emergency cuts are unjustified, end of discussion.

Each program's virtue is a separate debate, which the "debt and deficit emergency" do no inform at all.
04:04pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17054 posts


personal debt is acquired by a person through their free choice and assessment of their personal risk. it also chops up the specific risk of default into a million bite sized pieces - that's why banks love creaming the home loan market. if personal debt was a problem banks would have bad debts due to default and borrowers would be filing for bankruptcy and downsizing their obligations - neither of which is occurring. (maybe aussies like to have it all).


So you don't accept that incredibly high levels of household debt translates into low spending, which means less money flowing through the economy which means lower tax revenues?

I never said personal mortgage debt was an individual problem, individually it's fine. Collectively though, it's putting significant pressure on our tax revenue. The head of the RBA said it himself, lowering interest rates is not translating into the increased spending he wants to see.

You cannot separate the economy into two discrete section private and public and have them operate independently of each other.

Do you dispute the fact that our current public debt to GDP rate is about 1%? Do you dispute that, despite the deficit, it will remain at 1% at least until 2019? Do you dispute that even operating at 2-3% it is within the safety margins of our country?

Do you dispute that high levels of household debt is translating into low spending and low tax revenues for Australia?

Do you dispute that building roads will not translate into reducing household debt?
04:07pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22397 posts

lol

Hey guys our gov borrows money the way you do from a retail bank.


of course they do ya gronk. bonds are auctioned and the rates fluctuate. countries that underperform have the value of their bonds slashed to represent an increase in yield.

infi, the virtue of the programs the money is spent on, and the serviceability of the debt are distinct issues and you know they are.

The precise thing that everyone is getting shirty about is the needless running together of the two issues by abbott and hockey et al.


the point is the debt resulted from pure waste and we have got to get out of the habit of letting labor defile our budget for a spendathon each time they get into office. the debt our country worked so hard to repay was completely avoidable. yet economists want to talk up how getting into debt is a good thing. vash types who want to sign up to more welfare programs love to hear that.

Do you dispute the fact that our current public debt to GDP rate is about 1%? Do you dispute that, despite the deficit, it will remain at 1% at least until 2019? Do you dispute that even operating at 2-3% it is within the safety margins of our country?


there is no NEED to incur the debt. it is the result of lazy budget balancing habits.

Do you dispute that high levels of household debt is translating into low spending and low tax revenues for Australia?


private individuals are choosing to allocate more of their disposable income to house mortgages. they value that product more. houses are just another consumer item and servicing the mortgage is economic activity.

on the other hand REPAYMENT of a mortgage represents a reduction in money velocity as the money created through the mortgage is repais. that is the necessary fluctuation of fractional reserve lending. every loan created must later disappear.

Do you dispute that building roads will not translate into reducing household debt?


if the roads are built from taxes then the money spent by taxpayers is going back to taxpayers (minus the ever-present government inefficiency dividend), if it is spent from deficit/debt then it will be repaid another day instead (plus plus plus all the interest incurred on that amount of debt).
04:11pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15896 posts
the debt our country worked so hard to repay was completely avoidable

Why is it so hard for the Coalition to get the budget under control without resorting to increased revenue? If the problem is a spendathon, why has the net budget position worsened since the Coalition took office? Why has the Abbott Government repealed the debt ceiling?
04:18pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22398 posts

Why is it so hard for the Coalition to get the budget under control without resorting to increased revenue? If the problem is a spendathon, why has the net budget position worsened since the Coalition took office?


new spending programs (Gonski, NDIS), climbing welfare obligations (most specifically Aged pension), declining tax payer base, falling resource revenue stream due to fall in commodities prices.

sensibility dictates one cuts their suit from the cloth they have. but nah, debt is easy. at least the cost for refugee detention centres is falling.
04:22pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17055 posts
Interesting you skipped the 1% part.


if the roads are built from taxes then the money spent by taxpayers is going back to taxpayers


But you just before said wasted spending is silly. If more roads isn't really going to do anything for the economy then you should be against it. But you seem to be OK with it now because spending tax money for tax payers is OK?

BTW, you are indirectly creating two classes of people 1: Tax payers 2: Those who don't pay tax. You are also arguing for spending tax money on tax payers and ignoring non-tax payers. I guess you really do think the poor are not worth the governments time?
04:27pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17056 posts
Also do you dispute that alleviating high private debt levels would not lead towards a stronger economy?
04:29pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22399 posts
Interesting you skipped the 1% part.


it's a restatement of the same figure in a different format, it doesn't change the figure.

why did you leave out the second part of my sentence?

(minus the ever-present government inefficiency dividend)


government spending is inherently wasteful, some of it is necessary however.

BTW, you are indirectly creating two classes of people 1: Tax payers 2: Those who don't pay tax. You are also arguing for spending tax money on tax payers and ignoring non-tax payers. I guess you really do think the poor are not worth the governments time?


i am doing no such thing. i simply don't support incurring debt on a good time just because it is affordable.
04:31pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17057 posts

sensibility dictates one cuts their suit from the cloth they have. but nah, debt is easy.


Unless you had a way of acquiring relatively cheap debt, that can be used to facilitate the growth of your wealth in the long terms of that cheap debt's life. It would seem pretty silly to me to cut your spending down and having a strong negative effect on your economy, just so you don't have to go into a little extra debt that you can easily afford...
04:33pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17058 posts
So I've made my case, how about you start pumping out something other than political rhetoric to show how our current and future budget will cripple Australia in the long term? When it will cause us to breach our debt safety margins, when it will cause our bond market to get prohibitively expensive, when it will crash our economy?

Can you do that?
04:35pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1920 posts

Solar power set to become cheapest source of energy over next decade, German think tank says
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-24/solar-track-becoming-cheapest-energy-source-agora-energiewende/6251322

"That is still only 6 per cent of our electricity production, but still it is already 6 per cent, and we've seen how that already impacts on our electricity system in the sense that we don't need peak power of gas-fired power plants in the summer anymore."
"Obviously this is a threat to all those that are betting on coal, but there has always been structural changes, major structural changes to economies," he said.

"Those that were building railroads weren't happy about cars either, but in the end the cars came because the technology was better suited to the needs of the 20th century."

04:59pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17059 posts

it's a restatement of the same figure in a different format


Cool, so can you show me mathematically how a 1 is the same as 1:100? Cheers.
05:04pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22400 posts
So I've made my case, how about you start pumping out something other than political rhetoric to show how our current and future budget will cripple Australia in the long term? When it will cause us to breach our debt safety margins, when it will cause our bond market to get prohibitively expensive, when it will crash our economy?


Borrowing money to maintain operating deficits is not good fiscal management. That is my view of budget management. I don't think sending $1b/month to overseas lenders is good management. I would rather not blow the money on a good time and have the extra $1b month for the budget.

The Australian bond market will not crash, there will be no calamity. That does not excuse wasteful spending and failing to cut expenditure in the face of falling revenues.
05:10pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17060 posts

Borrowing money to maintain operating deficits is not good fiscal management. That is my view of budget management. I don't think sending $1b/month to overseas lenders is good management. I would rather not blow the money on a good time and have the extra $1b month for the budget.

The Australian bond market will not crash, there will be no calamity. That does not excuse wasteful spending and failing to cut expenditure in the face of falling revenues.


So No, you have no compelling reason to go against national fiscal norms and damage Australia's economy other than an ideological belief. Why didn't you just say so from the start.

Well, that's all done now. Back to Tony Bashing.
05:13pm 24/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22401 posts
Cool, so can you show me mathematically how a 1 is the same as 1:100? Cheers.
we now also have a $1b/month interest bill that could be used for delivering services to our citizens on a sustainable basis.

That actually reads:

we now also have a 1% of GDP /month interest Bill...


you are confused by your own rambling. i stated a fact. you chose to restate it and now want me to explain your restatement? do it yourself. you are demonstrating your descent into instanitty
05:15pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1218 posts
This is the problem: Peoole aren't getting that there is no reason for us to be in debt in the first place. There's no reason to be ramping up spending and over spending.
05:19pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17061 posts
Oh fair enough, in that case yes they are the same. PS that $1billion/month interest bill is sustainable on our current average growth rate ;)


05:20pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17062 posts

Peoole aren't getting that there is no reason for us to be in debt in the first place. There's no reason to be ramping up spending and over spending.


People get that, some people don't get that countries can operate more efficiently by using debt. There are plenty of reasons.
05:21pm 24/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1219 posts
Sorry, but there's nothing efficient about ramping up spending to 26% of GDP and running $50 billion yearly deficits for nothing.

Im not sure why you are olaying the Devils advocate Toll, I know that you know government spending is out of control and the budget position currently means big trouble in the next decade, especially if we hit an economic road bump.
05:38pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17063 posts


Sorry, but there's nothing efficient about ramping up spending to 26% of GDP and running $50 billion yearly deficits for nothing.


You're right, thankfully in Australia's case it's not for nothing. No, I do not believe our budget position means big trouble in the next decade. I accept it requires monitoring and any further spending and cuts have to be scrutinized. It would be terrible to cut our spending and send Australia into recession for example, a short term budget surplus for long term recession is very bad fiscal policy for example.
06:16pm 24/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1604 posts
the point is the debt resulted from pure waste and we have got to get out of the habit of letting labor defile our budget for a spendathon each time they get into office. the debt our country worked so hard to repay was completely avoidable. yet economists want to talk up how getting into debt is a good thing. vash types who want to sign up to more welfare programs love to hear that.


Why did you do exactly what I told you not to.

"Budget emergency" not some amorphous concept of "waste" is what was used to justify cuts to education, health etc.

So in fact no, waste isn't the point, like at all. False emergency talk is the issue. If we cut out centralized health education and social security completely, there would still be some of that 350b (probably a lot) floating around. Australia has never been debt free, only ever free of net debt. Conflating the two is disingenuous.

A Government will *always* have to borrow money, that is a fact of life. Nobody here is seriously suggesting that payg income would be enough to cover expenses week to week now or ever. The shortfall will have to borrowed.

Over and above you don't agree with what labor spent the money on, by what measure was the money "wasted". Just saying it was doesn't make it so, and potentially having a gross debt of 1T in 20 years time offers exactly zero meaningful information to that discussion.

False urgency to an important decision is a classic d******* salesman technique which apparently nobody is buying anymore.
06:48pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17064 posts

False urgency to an important decision is a classic d******* salesman technique which apparently nobody is buying anymore.


Doesn't stop Tone'z from trying. He has hit the Fear The Terrorist button again.

Fear The boat people. Fear Labor.
Fear the Budget. Fear Labor.
Fear the terrorists. Fear Labor.
Fear Wind Energy. Fear Labor.
Fear the Terrorists again. Fear Labor.

This is literally what the current government is doing, still.

F*** running a country based on fear, that is how you lose your civil liberties.
07:02pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4384 posts
You missed fear the human rights commission. Pretty spot on though. This government is absolutely disgraceful
08:46pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1627 posts
RE: Bill Shorten, Bill was supposed to be furniture because tone was supposed to have at least 2 terms, no one expected the sudden demise of tone.

The labor people wanted albo as the leader but the caucus installed Bill, he was meant to just be a caretaker.
09:46pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17066 posts
Well, you should field your A team for every match!
10:19pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17068 posts
Aww, it seems we wont get to see a pseudo-vash-land in operation. Greece is conforming.
10:29pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1628 posts
Well, you should field your A team for every match!


Do you even Aurelius or Machiavelli?
10:43pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17069 posts
pfft, I putin.
10:51pm 24/02/15 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10635 posts
so what have we actually invested with Labor's 300bn of debt? I am very interested to hear this.



broken promises probably. Still - I just need to 'do business' the way that I do it and know that future generations of my family will have a market that is permissible when they become adults.


*this* is why people don't vote Liberal. Liberal voters are using tech now as it's an everyday expectation to be online at all times. They get pissed when they can't put their son/daughter into a comfy-yet-educational experience as the company can't afford to carry that dead weight anymore to pay back previous family obligations.

*this* is why people pause when they consider voting Labor... Labour sprukes NBN.. yet they don't do enough to assist the Australian people why it is a major fed project.


'Family Obligations" and the wiring of those new systems have changed. And this is the future of Australian politics. I've never been happier to prove my father wrong, though at the same time I've watched Liberal friends who were effective be retrenched when they shouldn't have been at Queensland Health. I've lost some good friends along the way I am sorry to say. Few people take the time anymore to rock up to your house knowing that you're a hermit and say 'Happy Birthday"... followed by and the things I did wrong last year which I only listen to because I trust that judgement. It's hard to find good people they say


Future generations will decide the world we will live in ( also some corporate interests ).

It's not about the children though - I still don't know why that pops up on forums... it's about the systems and whether they are effective at the time and can endure.



I may or may not have put this poetically.


Look after your crew chaps

last edited by koopz at 23:38:43 24/Feb/15
11:30pm 24/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11575 posts
If Shorten isnt good enough to be PM
Who is in Labor???

Do you hate Abbott enough to put the backstabber of PMs on the Throne ?
11:53pm 24/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1921 posts
backstabber of PMs on the Throne ?
You do know the libs have a prior record for doing exactly this e.g. Gorton vs McMahon. I guess you being too young to know that Facie. That's what's so funny about all this current LNP indignation and hypocrisy on the subject.

Oh and BTW what was all that scurrying before the Libs lost the federal election to Labor in 2007 with the mass attack on Howard to stand down and quit office before that election yet he didn't cause Costello was awfully gutless. Everyone's imagination? I guess it's easy to forget when you possess a high degree of double standards, much like the criticism of the supposed Gillard lie (which it wasn't but whatever), when Howard lied prior to an election (core and non-core promises) and we all know know the biggest of all liars prior to an election was Tony Abbott. Seems the Libs actually have far greater form than Labor. Funny that people like infi and yourself can actually make the statements you do considering the evidence available.
12:07am 25/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1629 posts

Do you hate Abbott enough to put the backstabber of PMs on the Throne ?


Do you like libs enough to elect tone?

Faec pls
12:57am 25/02/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6673 posts
and we all know know the biggest of all liars prior to an election was Tony Abbott.


Heh, yep let's not forget the time Kerry O'Brien called Abbott on his BS back in 2010.
I guess many of the 2013 pre-election promises weren't carefully scripted enough.

01:28am 25/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1922 posts
Much like this one Daz.

01:44am 25/02/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15898 posts
OK so welfare is under review.

I personally think its a good idea to tidy up the system into 5 payments and encourage (whip or carrot as needed) able bodied persons into work. Well, if we're going to have a system where a general expectation of work is a thing. I've raised basic income in a diff thread so I'm not interested in that here; lets just roll with 'people should work if they can' maybe?

My problem is that I just don't find myself trusting the current Government not to disguise kicking the poor and the sick in the guts with legitimate reform and rort hunting. I would be a lot more comfortable with the notion of 'everyone paying their share' of budget reform if concessions for wealthier citizens via super and negative gearing were also being tabled for review. But almost everything so far seems to be targeted at the middle-low spectrum of the country.

I get that amendments here will have the biggest benefit because of the scale of the costs, but it feels unfair for the budget to be fixed by the poor and those still seeking to become financially stable - it feels like an inequitable approach, given that we basically got here due to tax cuts and concessions that tended to strongly benefit higher tax payers? Unless I'm missing something of course, and there ARE changes targetted at wealthier Australians.
01:03pm 25/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1607 posts
One thing it would be nice to see, is an honest appraisal of everyone in the system.

Dole Bludging certainly offends tender sensibilities, but I don't see anyone grandstanding over things like this.

What a shock, that government subsidies are abused *systematically* by small business and job seeker agencies.

Strangely however I don't see anyone saying sarina russo (hypothetically speaking) etc are giant c**** ripping this country apart.
01:25pm 25/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11576 posts
Who here wants to hire a person with a Disability that can only work a little over 10 hours a week ?

Such people are a risky option, likely to be unavailable often, a risk to co-workers, and unlikely to be a long term option.
What Employer would choose that person over a healthy worker ?

There is no reasonable expectation that they would find work.
01:32pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17072 posts
Pornopete, no grandstanding probably because it isn't easy to politicize it to gain support. When you are trying to tell the nation that you intend to push more people into looking for work (those dirty bludgers) it doesn't help if you also tell them the system to used to find them work is totally ass.

Since they have previously gone full tilt on the budget emergency aspect, then followed it up with leaners taking all our tax monies lets put them to work, they can't then policy block themselves by saying the job seeking system is busted. That's a problem for another government, or one that can be exploited later.

I have absolutely no faith that the current government or the opposition have Australia's interest above their own political career interests.

01:48pm 25/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1220 posts
We have a delusional person running the HRC. She should be fired immediately.

http://i.imgur.com/BxLVNny.jpg
02:34pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17074 posts

After examining the history, Triggs concluded that, in her opinion, it did not appear that it was necessary to detain Basikbasik in an immigration detention centre. She found that the Government had not considered whether, if Basikbasik was released into the community (as many asylum seekers are), an appropriate plan for mitigating the risk he might present could be put in place. In the absence of that consideration, his ongoing detention was arbitrary and therefore in breach of his human rights.


She's just doing her job dude. However you should totally let your judgement be dictated by a single article. It's pretty f*****g obvious that the current government has the s**** with her and is doing what it does best, attacking people's creditability and attempting to bully their way through parliament.

And you fall for it every single time.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:13:00 25/Feb/15
03:09pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4387 posts
We have a delusional person running the HRC. She should be fired immediately.


Was he convicted of that? why is he in a detention center and not jail? Smells fishy.
03:13pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17075 posts
He did go to jail. He served his time. However because he is a refugee Brool thinks he doesn't deserve normal treatment of a human being and we can ignore his rights anyway we want. He essentially wants to punish a person twice for the same crime.

However, Brool doesn't care about this guy, he never did. What he does care about is joining the lynching squad to get rid of Gillian Triggs as has the very recent campaign is directing him to do. Pitty the community is rallying for her, yet another bungled strategic move by our current government.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:16:24 25/Feb/15
03:14pm 25/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1608 posts
Don't feed the troll. The idea a former Dean of Sydney Law School isn't qualified to be a human rights legal officer is absurd beyond conception.

Brool is draggin his knuckles again.
03:22pm 25/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
940 posts
This post has been removed.
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03:24pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17076 posts
Yup, you are just a shill Brool. Or you just let the papers push your mind around like a puppet. Either way, waste of time.
03:33pm 25/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2157 posts
Yup, you are just a shill Brool. Or you just let the papers push your mind around like a puppet. Either way, waste of time.


If I were someone like Faceplantthingy with his conspiracy theories I'd probably think the Brool is an illegal alien trying to throw off the bloodhounds. Or just covering up that Abbott lied in Parliament today.
06:17pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17077 posts
< quote>
"Well, I don't know what Shorten QC is trying to establish here, but all he is establishing is he is not interested in the real issues that concern the Australian people - yet again Canberra insider nonsense that's all this is," Mr Abbott said.


That coming from Abbott? Fkn lol!
06:26pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17078 posts

There were pretty heavy questions regarding the welfare of the people in detention centers, it makes sense to me that the human rights commission investigated.


So what was our governments response? A report comes out that is against our political agendas, therefore it must be partisan.
Then attack the person who is responsible for the report, hopefully that will damage the credibility of the report, at the very least it will distract peoples attention away from the damning report and bring it onto a person.


The chair of the hearing, LNP Senator Ian MacDonald also told the hearing that he had not "bothered" to read the report into children in detention, because it was too partisan.


So Senator Ian MacDonald didn't bother to read and came to the conclusion t was too partisan.. Way to go, judge a book by its cover, if you even did that.
07:25pm 25/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22404 posts
Number of children in detention increases under Labor = no report from HRC

Number of children in detention decreases under Coalition = report from HRC

WAT?
07:29pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17079 posts
Because the health and well being of children doesn't deteriorate over time. No ifni, it isn't just about a number. You really need to accept that this current government and the previous one too have treated asylum seekers woefully and it is highly shameful of our Country.

Of course you wont accept it, you will follow the rhetoric and ignore the report, factual as it is.
07:37pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17080 posts
You know what would have been infinatly better?

If Tony and the Liberals accepted the report. All they had to do was say, 'We accept that children may have been treated poorly whilst in detention. As it stands we have dramatically reduced the number of children in detention and actively pursing the matter further. Thank you for the report Professor Triggs.'


There, done.
That's how an adult would have handled it.

If you really wanted to satisfy your Labor-bashing addiction you could even throw in a Labor-dig there as well.






07:48pm 25/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22405 posts
Where was the outrage for Labor's policy? Was the HRC busy?
07:57pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17081 posts
It's in the report actually infi. They are laying a portion of the blame on Labor as well dude, perhaps you should read it.
It's understandable that the reports timing was unfortunate for Liberals, that it came out around halfway through their term, and not halfway through Labors. Not that it would have made a difference to the election results either way.

So Liberals butthurt over it is greatly exaggerated and their response is disgraceful. The report clearly explains it's position.

As I said, all the current government had to do was accept it and move on.
08:03pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4388 posts
Actually children spent less time in detention under Labor, there were more yes, but the issue is the kids under the coalition have been in detention too long.
It's a travesty their playing politics over this.

Turnbull responded as a prime minister should. Abbott is not fit to be PM.
08:25pm 25/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2158 posts
It's in the report actually infi. They are laying a portion of the blame on Labor as well dude, perhaps you should read it.
It's understandable that the reports timing was unfortunate for Liberals, that it came out around halfway through their term, and not halfway through Labors. Not that it would have made a difference to the election results either way.

So Liberals butthurt over it is greatly exaggerated and their response is disgraceful. The report clearly explains it's position.

As I said, all the current government had to do was accept it and move on.


Correct again Toll.

Turnbull responded as a prime minister should. Abbott is not fit to be PM.


Indeed I noticed how Turnbull positioned himself on this. Showing he isn't rabid as the Abbott crew, distancing himself from the right and setting himself as the natural leader come the real spill.
08:45pm 25/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8519 posts
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08:51pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17082 posts
I also noted how Turnbull handled it. I can't fathom how Tony has the lead, what is going on behind closed doors to make that happen.
08:51pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10378 posts
Infi did you read the report?

I would suggest it was more critical of labor than the current government. A good report finds areas of improvement and doesn't tickle your gooch.

If Scott Morrison (who I detest) had still been at the helm of that discussion I think we have seen a very different outcome. He may have even worked out a way to get children out of these camps? Probably by doing something detestable but still probably better outcome than leaving them there.

Seriously our 'boat' people problem is nothing compared to the rest of the civilized world (particularly Spain (because of Ceuta), Italy (not sure why), UK (because of the Commonwealth and Gibraltar), the US because of Mexico, Cuba and well the whole area) and we carry on like we are being over run.

We don't have a government currently, we have an opposition that has the most seats. No leader, and the leader in waiting does not have the backing of his party because he is too centrist.
They need to stop blaming people.
They need to stop doing nothing.
They need to pass a budget!
They need to find a leader who represent their party, or become the party their real leader represents.


Westminster system is bollocks.
08:52pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1630 posts
08:53pm 25/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
12228 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
Send Private Message
09:08pm 25/02/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
8520 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
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09:27pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17083 posts

The most important thing is at least the current government is doing something to reduce the number of children in detention.


Actually I would say the most important thing would be to treat the children in detention in such a way that it doesn't have significant impact on their mental wellbeing. Reducing the numbers in detention or making sure the process to assess them is very quick would be a close 2nd.

edit: As an aside, if you wanted to politicise the report the correct way would have been to accept it as I said and then put it away knowing you are reducing children numbers.
Then if Labor brings it up, you can point out how the report is quite scathing of them whilst showing that you have reduced the numbers of children in detention. Labor would shoot back saying that the conditions are appalling and you can fire back saying that is due to the policies labor introduced that the Liberals are winding back (due to a successful boat people policy). The net result would have been in Liberals favour I'm sure.

Except Tony screwed it up, again.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:42:58 25/Feb/15
09:38pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17084 posts
In otherwords the ends do not always justify the means.
09:38pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17085 posts
Just took this line out of the report which may help give some people an understand of why the report wasn't done beforehand.


However, prior to 2014, no consistent child-specific mental health assessment tool has been applied
during the years that children have been detained in Australian detention centres.


This report seems to have been running since around February-March 2014 yeah?
09:59pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10379 posts
Tollaz0r! just gained a whole heap of wow points from me for your edit. You nailed it.
Succinctness and the ability to dilute complicate issues for easy consumption is exceptionally rare.

The difference between a leader and a opposition politician.
edit: As an aside, if you wanted to politicise the report the correct way would have been to accept it as I said and then put it away knowing you are reducing children numbers.
Then if Labor brings it up, you can point out how the report is quite scathing of them whilst showing that you have reduced the numbers of children in detention. Labor would shoot back saying that the conditions are appalling and you can fire back saying that is due to the policies labor introduced that the Liberals are winding back (due to a successful boat people policy). The net result would have been in Liberals favour I'm sure.


Your edit suggests to me you should consider a career in politics, real outcomes and controlling opinion...
10:07pm 25/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
12229 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Yawn
Send Private Message
10:26pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10380 posts
my post is factual...

Every post you have ever made is political.

"activities aimed at improving someone's status or increasing power within an organization."
11:03pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1924 posts
a leader
Abbott displays none of that.
11:54pm 25/02/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6678 posts
Except Tony screwed it up, again.


George Brandis screwed up more by allegedly trying to induce a president with impeccable credentials to abandon the HRC for a plum job elsewhere.

Tone's left with egg on his face, while the AG's conduct was appalling at best and quite possibly criminal.
While I doubt Senator Brandis has any decency left to do so, it's he himself that should be made to resign.
12:12am 26/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39000 posts
tone plz.

lolz.

also scott morrison is probably one of the biggest c**** ive ever seen in politics.

who the f*** would elect such a c***?
07:21am 26/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1609 posts
Where was the outrage for Labor's policy? Was the HRC busy?


Right here actually. Also the HRC doesn't do "outrage" it would be unprofessional. First page of the report, so hard to find the Libs must use those glasses they were for tickling each others a******* instead of reading.

Commission decision to conduct an Inquiry

By July 2013, the number of children detained reached 1,992.

As the federal election was imminent, I decided to await the outcome of the election, and any government changes in asylum seeker policy, before considering launching an Inquiry. By February this year, it became apparent that there had been a slowing down of the release of children. Over the first six months of the new Coalition Government the numbers of children in detention remained relatively constant. Not only were over 1000 children held in detention by February 2014, but also they were being held for longer periods than in the past, with no pathway to resettlement.

In these circumstances, I decided to exercise the Commission’s powers under the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986 (Cth) to hold a National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention.


Brandis and Abbott have disgraced themselves by their approach to this. Again Abbott and his ability to feel threatened is legendary. The Children, and the people pointing out their rights are being violated are out to get him and his government. Take a day off gees.

The net result would have been in Liberals favour I'm sure.


As for this, if labor had half a brain they would point out that under the libs sexual assault of children has gone up. Pretty hard to come back from that.
07:52am 26/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1631 posts
tone plz.

lolz.

also scott morrison is probably one of the biggest c**** ive ever seen in politics.

who the f*** would elect such a c***?


Have you seen Chris Pyne?
08:07am 26/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4390 posts
holy f*** this government is clueless

http://i.imgur.com/En26kXF.png
01:19pm 26/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1222 posts
Which part of his tweet was incorrect?

Qantas itself has said that the removal of the Carbon Tax is one of the reasons it is now back into profit. It has saved Qantas $59 million this year alone and It paid $106 million the year previous.

It seems you are the one who is clueless.
03:04pm 26/02/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22408 posts
holy s*** gillian triggs is paid $400,000. what a complete waste of taxpayer money. a human rights commissioner should be paid less than an MP (which is presently around $180,000).
03:21pm 26/02/15 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
1223 posts
That's a lot of money.
03:24pm 26/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1610 posts
Tony Abbott debasing himself and his office as a result of her work:

Priceless.
03:37pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14454 posts
holy s*** gillian triggs is paid $400,000. what a complete waste of taxpayer money. a human rights commissioner should be paid less than an MP (which is presently around $180,000).

The entire payroll for ministers and higher ups is just backwards. Yeah sure, pay the people running things a higher amount than the underlings, but not ridiculous sums like that, especially with their super's taken care of.
03:45pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17093 posts

holy s*** gillian triggs is paid $400,000. what a complete waste of taxpayer money.


Yeah that is pretty absurdly high.
03:57pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17096 posts

The factors that helped drive the return to profit included a $374 million benefit from cost-cutting, $208 million from reduced depreciation, $162 million from increased revenue per seat kilometre, $59 million from the removal of the carbon tax and $33 million from lower fuel prices.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-back-in-the-black-with-367m-profit-20150226-13oo45.html#ixzz3SpDD9Tfv



So, yeah the removing the carbon taxed helped increase QAN's profit by about 7% according to those numbers. Keep in mind that even with the carbon tax in place, Qantas would still have posted an impressive turnaround profit.
04:14pm 26/02/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1611 posts
It's high but as infi pointed out your bog standard MP or senator gets 200k, remember that includes this guy or this one.

It's on par with other senior legal officers, the justices of the high court get around that. Unlike, Muir or Lambie, to get there you actually do have to be at the peak of your profession.
04:15pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17097 posts
Christopher Pyne is also wrong by saying it is one of the main reasons. In fact that is a bit insulting to Qantas management that orchestrated a $2 billion transformation program that has allowed Qantas to move back into profitable business.


"The decisive factor in our best half-year result for four years was our complete focus on the Qantas transformation program," Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said.

"Our financial position is significantly stronger because of the actions we've taken, and we are giving Qantas a solid foundation for growth in earnings."


04:25pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Vash
4391 posts
What toll said.. Haha keep up the good work
04:27pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17098 posts
ABC's The drum seems to agree with me with what the Gov should have done with the report:


But as I say we welcome this report, we appreciate the firm reminder it offers of the risks children confront in detention ... and we take it as a validation of the policies of this Government, policies that have, as I say, reduced the number of children in detention from nearly 1500 when we took office to just 126 now.


Part of a mockup Transcript which is quite well written. Liberals should hire the writer.
04:29pm 26/02/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2160 posts


So, yeah the removing the carbon taxed helped increase QAN's profit by about 7% according to those numbers. Keep in mind that even with the carbon tax in place, Qantas would still have posted an impressive turnaround profit.


You all seem to forget that QANTAS passed on the carbon price to the customer, effectively costing them nothing. Then after it was repealed they kept charging it and they still do because the repeal didn't change the costs QANTAS incur every time they land in Europe because Australia has now no carbon price nor carbon trading scheme.

So tell me Toll have you received your $500 after the carbon price repeal?
04:52pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17099 posts
I dunno, maybe. Fuel is cheaper, some of that is attributable to carbon tax I'm sure. I don't actually pay for electricity anymore, however I suppose there are some sort of savings there too. Not sure it would add up to $500 though.
04:59pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1632 posts
lol, albo is awesome.

1 word press release.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-vc99cUUAArJng.jpg
05:30pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1633 posts
Meanwhile #libspill2 is trending on twitter. Surely they will wait until after their next terrible budget to axe tone and joe?
08:40pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39010 posts
tones gotta go, hes got less than a clue.

08:45pm 26/02/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7102 posts
Tonez has just redeemed himself by cracking down on foreign investment into residential real estate.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/02/property-spruikers-flip-foreign-buyer-crash-alert/
09:31pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1634 posts

Tonez has just redeemed himself by cracking down on foreign investment into residential real estate.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/02/property-spruikers-flip-foreign-buyer-crash-alert/


This will only work if they actually can start investigating and effectively prosecuting foreign buyers.

The real problems are negative gearing, stamp duty and capital gains being taxed at a different rate to actual income.
10:37pm 26/02/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39013 posts
u sure hate negative gearing matey.

i cant help but think if you dint live in such a horrible city (sydney), you could actually afford to buy nice property and then you could negative gear yourself.

more talk of back benchers wanting tone gone.

this is so delicious, either tone stays and the libs lose horribly, or the libs look like complete gooses and replace tone.

i just hope it all works out best for australia.
08:05am 27/02/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11586 posts
TONY Abbott is staging an unlikely recovery in the polls even as speculation about his leadership rumbles on.

A FAIRFAX-IPSOS poll published on Sunday puts the coalition almost neck-and-neck with Labor in two-party terms at 49-51.


http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/abbott-clawing-back-ground-ipsos-poll/story-e6frfku9-1227243781714

suck it down Turnbull.
09:44pm 01/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17119 posts

The Senate has passed a motion declaring George Brandis "unfit to hold the office of Attorney-General" over the Government's criticism of Gillian Triggs, following the release of her damning report into children in detention.


HAHAAHAHA Pwned.
02:54pm 02/03/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6684 posts
Heh, somewhat petty. Although at the very least there's now an example for Tony Abbott of what a blatantly partisan & politicised exercise actually does look like.
04:25pm 02/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1637 posts

I'll be away for a while..travelling OS.

So here is a flag pole poll meme;



Can someone overlay tones approval rating?
06:31pm 03/03/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11593 posts
Wuts doin with the Palmer Family Party
yesterday they were going to abstain on everything til Abbott got the boot
Today they changed their mind.

and his Dinosaur burnt down LOL


06:48pm 03/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1933 posts
and his Dinosaur burnt down
Poor dinosaur.
07:24pm 03/03/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14482 posts
Heh, so stamps are going up to a $1 now because snail mail is outdated. Who would have thought with the rise of email and express postage people would still use snail mail?
08:07pm 03/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10387 posts
Wuts doin with the Palmer Family Party
yesterday they were going to abstain on everything til Abbott got the boot
Today they changed their mind.


Explain why a party re-evaluating their position on a regular basis is a bad thing?

09:54pm 03/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17131 posts

Heh, so stamps are going up to a $1 now because snail mail is outdated. Who would have thought with the rise of email and express postage people would still use snail mail?


Not only do you get to pay more for postal service, but the service is going to be slower too!
10:27am 04/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22429 posts
Moving a piece of paper physically costs way more than email. Who woulda thunk it.
12:41pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15915 posts
I'm ok with losing same-day delivery and stamps costing more. Whatever it takes for the reliable postage service to continue, we do still NEED it but it doesn't need to be what it was, and we shouldn't pay taxes to prop up an absurdly high mail service level in the 21st century.
12:47pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39077 posts
this will not be good for my bizness.
01:02pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15916 posts
That's OK by me, because my tax dollars shouldn't subsidise your bizness. I pay enough f*****g tax.
03:04pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4409 posts
Just like how our taxes shouldn't subsidise mining/rich super concessions/rich pensioners
04:40pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15918 posts
Just like how our taxes shouldn't subsidise mining/rich super concessions/rich pensioners

Yeh I'm cool with that too, cut the f***en lot.

But somehow it FEELS like you are excusing taxpayer subsidy for post by pointing this out. Is that what you are doing? If not, why even bring it up, porkchop?
05:24pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1934 posts
I think hence forth impregnate the frontal lobe with an email transceiver all new borns. Physical mail would be history in a generation. Just sayin'.
06:26pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14489 posts

Seriously, can LNP actually do anything without f*****g it up?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-04/lnp-to-host-womens-day-function-in-men-only-venue/6280820


06:43pm 04/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
12249 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Dumb
Send Private Message
06:56pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Reverend Evil
Wynnum, Queensland
22162 posts
For s**** and giggles. How does someone become elected into the community?

If I wanted to start a life in politics. Where would I go?
10:55pm 04/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20510 posts
You could either run as an independent, i think pretty much anyone can do that

Or you go and suck ass and put in a heap of campaigning work with your preferred policital party to get noticed enough that you get pre-selected by that party to run for a seat, that is how you do it if you are a nobody working from the ground up
10:59pm 04/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22431 posts
For s**** and giggles. How does someone become elected into the community?

If I wanted to start a life in politics. Where would I go?


join either of the political parties and start attending meetings, once you know your local branch members then run for pre-selection.
11:02pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Reverend Evil
Wynnum, Queensland
22163 posts
Interesting. I'm going to train hard and then come down like a tonne of bricks on whoever is around this area.
11:04pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Reverend Evil
Wynnum, Queensland
22164 posts
And the hilarious thing will be. There will be a huge scandal with me and saying I like drugs. And I'll just admit it straight up and the news stations will be all like WTF to we say now?? Because we always try and drag people thru the mud to get ratings. But it's not going to werk this time. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
11:13pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1935 posts
I vote Rev.
11:28pm 04/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22433 posts

And the hilarious thing will be. There will be a huge scandal with me and saying I like drugs. And I'll just admit it straight up and the news stations will be all like WTF to we say now?? Because we always try and drag people thru the mud to get ratings. But it's not going to werk this time. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah


hey that's par for the course. you should end up in a cushy GOC job.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/former-alp-candidate-daniel-cheverton-joins-queensland-investment-corporation/story-fnihsrf2-1227247037480
11:55pm 04/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4411 posts
I think it was the deputy leader of the ALP's husband was a former heroin dealer, or was it cocaine?
Meh, i reckon Abbott's sexual harassment history is worse.
12:00am 05/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17142 posts
My Local Councillors get paid $120,000 or there abouts, the Mayor gets aobut $220,000.

No s***, reading the committee meetings these guys pretty much just vote yes to any recommendations that get thrown at them. They recently passed the buck of a highly controversial to DTMR, they wiped their hands clean of it and at the same time removed all negotiating power they had for their local community. The decision now rests with state government. They get paid s*** loads to sit down at meetings and do nothing but vote yes. lol They have secretaries too that do most of the paper work for them.


If you wanted to look at getting into politics, try starting with your local Councillors, super cushy job it seems.
10:08am 05/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1936 posts
Whoever fixes this up gets my vote. Wynnum near golf course, 1.5 ks from exchange.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/4189995630.png
04:16pm 05/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15925 posts
Are you stuck on a ADSL1 port?
04:23pm 05/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1937 posts
Nope ADSL2+. It's up and down all the time. My fixed line is out at present. Mobile coverage is so s***house too so I can't call Optus on the mobile in the house for the service call, no coverage. Have to go outside. Have to work out how to call Optus and be inside at the same time.
04:50pm 05/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15926 posts
That's gonna be awks then cos it means your copper is rotten if you only 1.5ks to the exchange.

NBN-lite will not probably go that good :(
05:24pm 05/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17151 posts
You should have two copper cables going to you house, 1 is a backup. An ex-telstra (telecom) friend was telling me that they used to just switch people over from one line to another in the case of a fault instead of fixing it lol.
06:05pm 05/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10392 posts
ey that's par for the course. you should end up in a cushy GOC job.

Completely different to getting a contract for providing beds for old people from someone who you have a link to, and denying someone who is bed ready...

Quack?
09:35pm 05/03/15 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1688 posts
You should have two copper cables going to you house, 1 is a backup. An ex-telstra (telecom) friend was telling me that they used to just switch people over from one line to another in the case of a fault instead of fixing it lol.


I think the real trouble is that the copper has been around so long that most people have already USED the spare copper.


That's gonna be awks then cos it means your copper is rotten if you only 1.5ks to the exchange.

NBN-lite will not probably go that good :(


Or AT ALL. From what I've understood, the frequencies used will be significantly higher and even small copper defects could cause interruptions to the service.

With that copper, the only NBN you'll be getting with the lib's plan is satellite / wireless. (If your copper doesn't meet the minimum standard, they won't replace it or run a fibre. They'll force you onto NBN wireless or satellite and say "there you go, we got you your 25Mbps minimum")
07:44am 06/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
238 posts

http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2015/03/05/intergeneration-report-recommends-killing-all-baby-boomers
A telephone poll of voters aged 50 to 69 has revealed a comfortable majority support their own deaths, with most surveyed unable to believe how long it took the measure to be introduced.


I find that article unbelievable - there's no way an entire generation of narcissists, which the baby boomers are, would agree to their own deaths, no matter how perfectly logical the move may be.

and btw Hockey saying that we're all going to have to become more productive is just another way of saying we're all gonna have to be paid less. But that's just for people who actually work for a living - the rich should continue getting even more and more money for nothing of course. Anything less just wouldn't make sense. It's all perfect Hockonomics.
02:36pm 06/03/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1615 posts
05:18pm 06/03/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24938 posts
Maybe they should have put comedy or something in the url to make it more obvious.
06:17pm 06/03/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9030 posts
Whoever fixes this up gets my vote. Wynnum near golf course, 1.5 ks from exchange.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/4189995630.png

Got a service connected yesterday, just over 1k from the exchange in an area I've always had great connections in, now connecting at similar speeds. Everything about my new unit is evil. Phone call to iiNet also dropped out due to rubbish reception in this little dip.

Could really use a solid fibre optic connection right now instead of all the rubbish which looks to be involved with getting this old copper debugged.

Otherwise I hope there's another flood to get me out of this lease.
06:55pm 06/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17154 posts
When I bought my house, a good internet connection was on the list of must haves.
09:15am 07/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22434 posts
When I bought my house, a good internet connection was on the list of must haves.


word to your mother.
09:24am 07/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20515 posts
I only roll taxpayer funded gold plated fibre connections when i bought my house
09:38am 07/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39099 posts
When I bought my house, a good internet connection was on the list of must haves.


snap, was even when i rented too.
11:27am 07/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1639 posts

JTFC get these retards out of government now.


http://m.smh.com.au/comment/education-minister-christopher-pyne-heads-for-brave-new-world-20150306-13w7q2.html

Australia, the dumb country. I guess it is in their interest to discourage academics, unis are socialist breeding grounds.


01:15pm 07/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7107 posts
Hockey has just said that first home buyers should be allowed to use their super-annuation to get into the great aussie housing ponzi bubble.

The man is a corrupt stooge for the property lobby and a buffoon. He should be sacked immediately.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 15:06:49 07/Mar/15
03:05pm 07/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15931 posts
When I bought my house, a good internet connection was on the list of must haves.

When I bought my house that meant 6mbit.

LOL f*** Cairns.
03:31pm 07/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22435 posts
Hockey has just said that first home buyers should be allowed to use their super-annuation to get into the great aussie housing ponzi bubble.

The man is a corrupt stooge for the property lobby and a buffoon. He should be sacked immediately.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 15:06:49 07/Mar/15


So home buyers can plough their super which is for their retirement into inflating the housing industry?This problem is on the supply side. We need more dwellings constructed.
04:40pm 07/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22437 posts
There is a bill for the funding. It's just linked to other legislation. Decisions....
06:46pm 07/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17156 posts
Such a stupid situation to be in. Both sides of government failing to figure out how to compromise and our high tech infrastructure is stuck in the middle.
07:13pm 07/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10393 posts
It will be a good day when Australians realize our political system is broken and both major parties are corrupt and inept.

Crossing the floor to represent your voters should be common place. It's non-existent. It helps keep their own party in check.The grey folk can't direct policy because all of a sudden the entire government backbench might cross the floor... Good times in my opinion.

The last 3 idiot leaders think they got elected and get a mandate from the voters... no we do not have direct election, and the head of state is a Pommie Queen. We vote for our local member. We hope our local member is smart enough to elect in the party room a prime minister (p.s. not in the constitution anywhere!) who is not a moron.

09:26pm 07/03/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9032 posts
How exactly is it both parties' fault? The coalition (education minister??) is holding the funding and value for money on all previous spending hostage unless he gets his way on an unrelated issue, seems pretty clear cut that one party is to blame unless you believe that negotiating to the demands of terrorists is a responsibility put on those peripheral to a hostage mess and a good precedent to make.
08:16am 08/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17160 posts
The current government had a plan, they executed their plan poorly. The opposition wont budge on their stance. Whilst our country can afford debt, there is no reason to let a budget deficit grow uncontrolled. So because Labor wont budge, and Liberal wont budge, it's both governments fault.
09:35am 08/03/15 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9033 posts
But the current gov is holding an unrelated important thing hostage to getting their way on something else, it's not about people not budging, it's about the very stock definition of terrorism tactics and brings back the question of whether you should negotiate with hostage takers or are guilty yourself for not giving them what they want.

The coalition should never have held that important economic sector's stability hostage in the first place, just as much as somebody shouldn't be robbing a house or drunk driving in the first place. It's not a question of what the other party is doing, whether not budging or not, they need not even exist in the equation.

And why the hell is the education minister even able to hold hostage the stability of the R&D industry anyway? Shouldn't that be the role of the science minister or whoever they gave that 'not very important role' to? (The minister for industry or something?)
09:49am 08/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1640 posts
F*****g hell, super for houses, really?
10:04am 08/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17162 posts
Well it isn't such a bad idea. If you own your house completely by the time you retire you save significant money in mortgage/rent.
03:22pm 08/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20519 posts
Young people's super pays for old people's negative gearing
03:38pm 08/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1641 posts
Well it isn't such a bad idea. If you own your house completely by the time you retire you save significant money in mortgage/rent.


It is the worst idea ever. Median house prices will be at 1mil in sydney in 18 months. If you think this is good, you're either an investor or retarded.
05:17pm 08/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17163 posts
I suppose you're right it's better that those people keep plugging money into super, where about 60% goes into somebody else's real-estate. That way we can keep them locked out of home ownership and have them hang around and rent those houses peoples super is invested in. woot.
09:13pm 08/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1642 posts
Letting people buy housing with super will just drive house prices up and support the current problem. I am ok with renting currently, a house 4 houses down from where i'm living sold for 1.1 million. It is a 2 bedroom place. I pay 600 a week rent, that's much better than having all my money servicing a million dollar mortgage.

There's so many other ways to fix housing affordability.

Release more land, abolish stamp duty, negative gearing only for new properties, make capital gains taxed at teh same rate as income.
09:34pm 08/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4417 posts
http://i.imgur.com/JrLI5ZJ.jpg

And Pyne sees the U.S model as desirable.
10:07pm 08/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17164 posts
Letting people buy a primary residence with super means they directly get involved with their long term financial situation. They will buy a house the suits their budget, no $1mil first homes. This means the money will spread far more evenly across australia, within travelling distance of where they work instead of super funds investing and concentrating only in the strong market areas like sydney, making your rent $600.
12:16am 09/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1942 posts
^ Pyne is a total tosser.
12:40am 09/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
241 posts
Maybe having a house to live in is better than having a bank account that you have very limited control over.

But unless the increase in property values drops below the increase in wage levels over the long term nothing will change. After all, an increase in property value is due to a relative decrease in affordability. So there will always be fewer and fewer property owners so long as housing is driven by investment (and eventually it has to peak and collapse). For housing to be driven by actual home ownership, property value has to be tied to wage levels.

Also Sydney went up by 12.2% last year compared to perth's 1.2%.... that's a huge swing from perth and they reckon it's due to rezoning close to the city.. and there's definitely heaps of units going up everywhere. Maybe sydney needs to wake the f*** up.

Perth is awesome. If you don't like it I'll glass ya.

and melbourne is full hipster tossers. Seriously, go f*** yourself, melbourne.
12:37pm 09/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22444 posts
how could the solution to limited housing supply possibly be unlocking access to one's super?

that is simply enabling workers to use their retirement savings to pay EVEN MORE for an asset which can also go down in value.

House prices don't always go up. A private residence should be treated as is a consumer item, not an investment.
12:51pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39116 posts
surely we should continue to buy houses the old fashioned way, saving our money, not going on holidays and then buying something within our means?
01:13pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4419 posts
I agree with infi for once. The lunacy of housing as an investment is as crazy as having healthcare as a primary private institution like the U.S. and private prisons.
Profit over the wellbeing of people.

I have an investment property purely so i can actually have a place to live eventually.
There needs to be much more government intervention for first home buyers. The stamp duty waiving of new dwellings, and first home bonus is not enough. they need to waive stamp duty on existing dwellings as well for first homer buyers, increase the bonus using the money they're making from investors stamp duty.

The incentives sure has created a boom for new apartments but it's not helping affordability. Since new apartments at the moment are going for 550k for a 1 bedroom, 25km from Sydney CBD. Insane.
02:57pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1643 posts

Sure spook, I'll carefully save my pennies like the good old fashioned way and hopefully in a few years I'll have a deposit for a lovely fire damaged home for $790K.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-22/st-peters-house-badly-damaged-by-fire-goes-to-auction/5911476

Nothing is broken with real estate, just suck it up and live within your means in a place gutted by fire to get on the ladder!


03:06pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10394 posts
how could the solution to limited housing supply possibly be unlocking access to one's super?

that is simply enabling workers to use their retirement savings to pay EVEN MORE for an asset which can also go down in value.

House prices don't always go up. A private residence should be treated as is a consumer item, not an investment.


WTF ... infi said something I agree with?
03:34pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
242 posts
Property prices have never gone down. Minor fluctuations are meaningless.

The last time they went down was the great depression. ie economic collapse, so it's not really something to hope for. We've since largely revolutionised our economy... twice (pretty much for a full 360).

But if you go back 40-50 years, besides wages being a lot higher relative to property prices, there was more government support and your interest rate wasn't necessarily higher because you had less money.

These days the poorer you are, the more it costs you to borrow money. It doesn't make sense.
08:52pm 09/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7108 posts
The Parrot talks some sense

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/93956
09:29pm 09/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22445 posts
Property prices have never gone down. Minor fluctuations are meaningless.

The last time they went down was the great depression. ie economic collapse, so it's not really something to hope for. We've since largely revolutionised our economy... twice (pretty much for a full 360).


You better let japan, USA, Portugal, Spain and Ireland know (and France post the millionaires' tax).
09:38pm 09/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7109 posts
I agree with the Lizard on this issue.

I have never expected the Liberals to believe in much but as a conservative party you would expect them to believe in thrift. But the Liberal Party of Australia does not even believe in thrift.


http://www.watoday.com.au/comment/hockey-plans-to-smash-a-worldclass-superannuation-system-20150309-13z1gc.html

This current LNP govt has some very schizophrenic ideas. That's not to say Labor are just as dodgy or confused about their own core principles.

09:44pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17171 posts
They aren't confused by their core principle: Get elected.

They are confused with what the people are willing to vote for/against.
10:49pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1944 posts
This current LNP govt has some very schizophrenic ideas.
Some, you said some, I'm not quite sure the number sits at some, more like many.

That's not to say Labor are just as dodgy or confused about their own core principles.
Always the disclaimer. Here's something, Labor are not in government.
11:00pm 09/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
244 posts


You better let japan, USA, Portugal, Spain and Ireland know (and France post the millionaires' tax).


The property market is driven by investment. If values are not going up, no one will invest (and no one is investing). If this is the case, it means the market has crashed, and with it being a core industry it has a serious and broad economic impact.

If property is no longer driven by investment it means it has collapsed.

Aggregate US land prices

1975-1998 values trend upward with some minor fluctuations along the way. Very suddenly, between 1998 and 2007, values quadruple. They then crash and drop to around the 1998 levels (due to free market marketeers and their childish financial gambling selling risk that is literally like a game of hot potato), and now today (or 2014 Q1) are at around 2002 levels.

It doesn't matter at what point between 1975 and 2015 you by a house. If you plan to live in it and so own it for 50 odd years, it'll be worth much, much more than when you first bought. Even if the market crashes, it's still worthwhile.

So workers won't lose out by having more money to help finance a home. Sure they could wait a bit for the market to cool a bit and MAYBE prices and interest rates will drop slightly (or in sydney's case, crash), but they're still better off having access to that money if they're really keen to own a home. Even $50k in super will save about $100k in interest paid to the bank over the course of the loan.. actually it'll probably be quite a bit more than that.

So your claimed fear for the poor workers is either disingenuous or ignorant.. probably a bit of both. I recommend spending some time reflecting on why you feel the need to communicate at all.
04:00pm 10/03/15 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1617 posts
That reads a bit word salady Roonee.

I don't understand how you can say that workers won't be forced to sell up in a major economic downturn and lose their money. It's what happened in virtually every case infi pointed out.
04:30pm 10/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39124 posts
Sure spook, I'll carefully save my pennies like the good old fashioned way and hopefully in a few years I'll have a deposit for a lovely fire damaged home for $790K.


u should see what you can get in brisbane for that sort of money.

i would imagine it would be a house mostly undamaged by fire.
04:34pm 10/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10397 posts
A house that you live in, is not an investment. It's not even really a form of savings... it might be in the long term ... maybe (a lifetime of rent vs a life time of mortgage ? the math on that would suck)
It is a dwelling, everybody needs one (even couch surfers)

The only way it can increase or decrease in value is if you move from market to another , location to location, or owner occupied to rental ... or die.

You can spend money and or time on it and it may or may not improve it's saleability or price, but given that you have locked that money or time into the dwelling again you have to move out of that market, because honestly the house price is moving with the market.. and you need to live in something.

When a housing market crashes, even that is irrelevant ... unless you can no longer service your loan, or are forced to move.

05:12pm 10/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
245 posts
That reads a bit word salady Roonee.

I don't understand how you can say that workers won't be forced to sell up in a major economic downturn and lose their money. It's what happened in virtually every case infi pointed out.


Never said that.

But put that with what infi said and it becomes a fear that our beloved treasurer is encouraging workers to buy property when we're about to experience a "major economic downturn." Hockey is an ignorant, short-sighted, sheltered rich brat but he's not a sociopath deliberately trying to rob workers of life savings... not deliberately.

In all the cases mentioned there was a highly predatory financial system that inflated property values enormously.

What's happening in our case is that working people are being allowed the use of real money (super accounts) to help them buy a home.

Having said that, I wouldn't be buying property in sydney right now... and if you happen to own something for investment purposes, sell now. You've got maybe 3 weeks before it all falls to s***.
02:35pm 11/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4421 posts
sell now. You've got maybe 3 weeks before it all falls to s***.


Heh, been hearing this for years...You don't buy an investment property like you do shares. In it for the long run. The only thing that would cause a housing crash is a nasty recession. Don't see indiciation of that happening in 3 weeks.
Even the 2008 crisis didn't hurt housing much. You'd need a 1930s recession, unlikely though possible.
03:35pm 11/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22449 posts
and if you happen to own something for investment purposes, sell now. You've got maybe 3 weeks before it all falls to s***.


i just sold 60% of my shares, against my broker's advice. s***'s gettin too hoot.
06:11pm 11/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2167 posts
Even the 2008 crisis didn't hurt housing much. You'd need a 1930s recession, unlikely though possible.


We weren't exposed to anything in 2008 that would have affected us.

I was talking to some of my associates in Singapore over the weekend who are concerned that our $ is dropping too low, the RBA has no where to go with rates, and the Federal Government hasn't got a handle on the economy. In essence we are teetering on the brink of a recession and the LNP are oblivious.
08:42pm 11/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1645 posts

Heh, been hearing this for years...You don't buy an investment property like you do shares. In it for the long run. The only thing that would cause a housing crash is a nasty recession. Don't see indiciation of that happening in 3 weeks.
Even the 2008 crisis didn't hurt housing much. You'd need a 1930s recession, unlikely though possible.
http://www.propertyobserver.com.au/forward-planning/advice-and-hot-topics/title-tattle/40896-cba-boss-ian-narev-lists-paddington-terrace.html

Maybe something is about to happen. Yellow bank head has listed his property in Sydney.

20-30% dip would be nice.
09:50pm 11/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17177 posts

i just sold 60% of my shares, against my broker's advice. s***'s gettin too hoot.


Aussie shares or international?
09:58pm 11/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17178 posts
If Sydney tanks that hard it would hit national confidence and hurt the rest of the market.

There has been fairly strong buying support for AUD at it's current levels, suggests it is going to consolidate here. I can't see it getting too much lower very easily, RBA still wants it at around 70cents. Carry trade has come to an end, our interest rates are too low for the risks involved.
10:02pm 11/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22450 posts


Aussie shares or international?


aussie only, america is on the rebound
11:42pm 11/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7110 posts
Tony Jones gives RE industry lacky aka "Ponzi" Joe Hockey a good kick in the balls for his retarded super for FHB's brain fart.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4195936.htm
08:56am 13/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
247 posts
Good ol' Barrie C. this morning pointed out that there's no actual legislation or anything being proposed for the whole using super thing, it's just something that the media and random suckers like me are talking about.

Put that together with what Hockey did last week in forcing some chinese billionaire to sell their newly bought mansion because it wasn't properly reported as a foreign purchase or whatever it was, which was an isolated case with no follow-up clamp down or legislation or anything to go with it...

and I get the feeling we're being distracted from something. It's as if Hockey thinks he can change the public's view of himself and the current government with just a few meaningless words and acts.

Such arrogance. He hasn't learnt anything from the barrage of criticism and failed policies of the last 6 months. Maybe this corrupt North Sydney Forum needs to stop blowing smoke up his rectum before he'll learn some humility and start doing his job properly.
01:17pm 13/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17200 posts

and I get the feeling we're being distracted from something. It's as if Hockey thinks he can change the public's view of himself and the current government with just a few meaningless words and acts.


It's pretty obvious that the current government has drastically altered their strategy in an attempt of damage control. There must have been a bit of a back-room meeting with ol-mate Tonez, he has been told to shape up or get out I suspect. Sudden policy turn-arounds on a range of issues in such a short time.
01:30pm 13/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1646 posts
I think they're actually just idiots and use public outrage as a sounding board to what horrible policy they can get away with.
02:28pm 13/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4426 posts
04:09pm 13/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2170 posts
Next Monday Four Corners reveals leaked communications, top secret decisions and interventions from outside the Liberal Party intended to shore up Tony Abbott's leadership.
https://scontent-nrt.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11024782_10152778842100954_7756133546673189412_n.jpg?oh=c6735aab0c309b2b6d3ee86f203074e9&amp;oe=558C00A8
07:29pm 13/03/15 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
248 posts

The myth of Coalition economic management

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-12/dunlop-the-myth-of-coalition-economic-management/6308704




Interesting stuff. I always thought there must be more to good economic management than f*****g everyone over with budget cuts... most of which they failed to implement. It seems that Hockey will maintain his 'I know better than everyone' attitude right up till he gets sacked with abbott.

I wonder how hard it would be to sneak a potato sack into parliament house? F*** eggs, that guy needs a good sacking.

But yeah, the probable reason why the Howard years had the highest tax to gdp rate of all time was because it's when they introduced the GST, plus mining, construction and consumer confidence were all going through the roof. Then Kevin '07 came along and 6 months later everything fell to s***.

Also it's possible that the reason why the tax to gdp rate tended to be higher under the coalition was because the economy improved under them... which is something certainly not happening under the current government.

Abbott, Hockey, Pyne all don't have a bloody clue what they're doing, but they're convinced that they do. Frankly I think they border on meglomania and personality disorder. Julie and Scotty seem pretty solid though, at least as far as conservative politicians go.
11:54pm 13/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2171 posts
11:17am 14/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4429 posts
already did, well something similar released by the greens. that would certainly solve our age of entitlement and budget problems.
12:57pm 14/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1647 posts

http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-shocks-as-he-eats-a-raw-onion-whole-20150313-143syz.html

Our PM ate an onion skin on.

Surely we've reached peak tonepls. He cannot say or do anything dumber than this.
03:15pm 14/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20533 posts
He sure is a weird dude
03:40pm 14/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7112 posts
Hockey = idiot

10:11pm 14/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22455 posts
redflag = socialists. that infographic is advocating theft
10:47pm 14/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1959 posts
^ good clip slaps. Lots to think about. If only we had visionary leaders and politicians in government. It's a pity we don't.
10:48pm 14/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1960 posts
redflag = socialists. that infographic is advocating theft
WTF? You're so full of it. Half of those items are benfits over and above their earnings

Removing concessions to landlords is not theft.
Recovering tax that's being avoided by multi-nationals is not theft.
Removing Superannuation tax concessions for a minority where not enjoyed by everyone else is not theft.
Removing subsidies to private bus and train companies is not theft.
Removing subsidies to private health insurance companies is not theft.
Removing subsidies to mining is not theft.

How the f*** do you have the audacity to suggest that taking back money given to individuals/companies not directly earnt through their endeavours is stealing. Now you are being a total f***en tosser. Your ilk are thieving from this generation and the next to satisfy your personal greed for today. Don't bother, whatever you reply with I couldn't give one flying f*** about. Greedy f***en c@#$.
11:02pm 14/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22456 posts

increase tax on the rich, on companies - it's magic like clicking ones fingers

increase the tax on private health insurance (sure they pay medicare levy as well but f*** them right)

increase super tax (sure they dont ask for a pension but f*** them right)

cancel funding to private schools, (sure they don't consume taxpayer funded public school positions but f*** them right).

increase tax on the highest earners even though only the top 25% of taxpayer's pay any tax at all - just throw another stone on their chest cos f*** them right

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/no-the-rich-dont-pay-a-fair-share-of-tax-they-pay-all-of-it/story-e6frgd0x-1226841174461

reclaim a tax refund Nerws Corp won in court under the rules of our land!?

socialists have the grandest ideas about spending OTHER people's money. what happens when the donkey (top 25%) taxpayers get jack of it? or should they just shutup and cop it at gunpoint.

Removing subsidies to private bus and train companies is not theft.


public transport consumes vast amounts of taxpayer funds but you want to squib on a private operator trying to do it more efficiently... or do you want the price of the tickets to go up?
11:53pm 14/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1961 posts
socialists
You're a joke. No one, except Vash, is suggesting socialism. Such a typical d*** with all your phoney f***ed up labeling as if for some god forsaken reason in your tiny narrow mindedness thinks it means something and makes you appear intelligent, sorry to break it to you but it doesn't one bit.
12:01am 15/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22457 posts
redflag, newspaper of socialist alternative


www.reflag.org.au, the authors of the silly infographic - that's right it is not a "meme" lol

I didn't label anyone, they labeled themselves. any other false accusations you care to make?
12:29am 15/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39145 posts
redflag = socialists. that infographic is advocating theft


DONT TAX THE RICH, TAX THE POOR!!
06:43am 15/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4432 posts
people speak of socialism as if it's a bad thing, except that's exactly the kind of policy that's made this country great. Universal health, education, welfare are socialist policies. If you want to get all neo liberal, cut all that as per the IPA, kill the ACCC, and just let the free market do its thing as the wealth shifts further to the 1%.
But apparently its theft to allow fair distribution of wealth instead of it concentrating to a small amount of the population, because they "earned" it. when they actually made that wealth via exploiting the poor.
09:15am 15/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17223 posts
It's pretty obvious there needs to be a balance between socialism and liberalism. To go too far in either direction is dangerous for the country.
You can't be too cranky that there are people like Infi, when there are also people like Vash, they are just balancing each other out.
09:50am 15/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4433 posts
I disagree that it's dangerous for things go too far for the left. We can't let the poor get too comfortable now can we?
09:52am 15/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17224 posts
Well the more socialism available the less incentive there is to innovate and better your position. There needs to be enough to provide a safety net, but not enough to be so comfortable that you don't even bother.

It also costs the country a great deal of money, money that could be used building infrastructure and other things to make the country greater. How many communes have you visited Vash? For real? I've been to a couple, the people are nice to be sure, quite a socialist setting. Except it is also pretty boring, the standard of living is pretty poor.
10:01am 15/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4434 posts
It isn't about spending other peoples money as infi puts it, it's about allowing access to wealth that would otherwise be impossible to access for a majority of the population.
Increasing incomes to CPI, to not do so is theft. Inflation increases, pay doesn't increase. we've lost income.
How crazy is it we have to negotiate for pay rises to barely reach 3% when that would only maintain our current incomes?

All these concessions to the wealthy is also theft from the taxpayer. To remove these isn't taking money, nor theft. If anything, more concessions to the less well off is desirable so they are able to spend more money in the economy.
To be leftist, is to have a stronger economy as more people have money to spend, making the economy, and the country stronger, and able to afford more infrastructure.
10:13am 15/03/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11604 posts
02:18pm 15/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17225 posts

How crazy is it we have to negotiate for pay rises to barely reach 3% when that would only maintain our current incomes?


You individually or as a group? My group currently beats CPI. If I was doing individually eventually I would go to another job that is willing to pay me better. I've done it before and I'll do it again.

Also the fact those most industry EBA's do at least me CPI, suggests that it is balanced. It takes effort to erode our financial positions and takes effort to increase it. Global circumstances are always going to make it easier to push it one way or the other depending on boom/bust cycles.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:16:46 15/Mar/15
03:13pm 15/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22458 posts
Easier just to tax a bit more from rich people and hand it around. F*** negotiating for it.

Also this is a terrifying read.

http://www.challengeofchange.gov.au/
09:05pm 15/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4437 posts
09:06pm 15/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17227 posts
Dr Karl, who arrived by boat and who's dad was a refugee smuggler.
09:30pm 15/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10408 posts
Easier just to tax a bit more from rich people and hand it around. F*** negotiating for it.


Let's assume there is a minimum amount of money required to live.
Then let's assume there is a minimum amount of money that is required to resolve most peoples wants.

Then there are people who buy Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.
Ironically I probably pay more tax a year than people who own the previously mentioned vehicles due tax laws that let multi-national billion dollar a year companies to pay less than Australian Companies. Meanwhile we have a dumb arse government that is trying to workout how to smash the bottom 5%... A government that infi, you, have previously been a paid up member in, have received interesting/questioned by the media benefit of party. But you don't like them ... You'd do 50 shades of grey with Tones in a second.
10:59pm 15/03/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14525 posts
I feel like Pyne is dipping into crazy town the longer these deregulation fees stay off the boards. Who in their right mind would hold science jobs as hostage when we are already struggling to put people in jobs? Oh, that's right, Liberal.
11:11pm 15/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22459 posts


Let's assume there is a minimum amount of money required to live.
Then let's assume there is a minimum amount of money that is required to resolve most peoples wants.

Then there are people who buy Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.
Ironically I probably pay more tax a year than people who own the previously mentioned vehicles due tax laws that let multi-national billion dollar a year companies to pay less than Australian Companies. Meanwhile we have a dumb arse government that is trying to workout how to smash the bottom 5%... A government that infi, you, have previously been a paid up member in, have received interesting/questioned by the media benefit of party. But you don't like them ... You'd do 50 shades of grey with Tones in a second.


if you are paying net tax Obes then you are a member of the exclusive 25% club. Just be assured that the Socialist Alliance Vash types will hit you up for a lot more if they get the reins.
12:25am 16/03/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14527 posts

We all knew these reforms wouldn't go through, but it is hilarious seeing the entire Upper House bar Liberal actually fight for jobs, while Liberal are soul bent on killing said jobs because no one wants to play nice with their immoral strategies. But hey, science is so yesterday, right?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-16/governments-bid-to-deregulate-universities-looks-set-to-fail/6321384


08:01am 16/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17229 posts
The Liberals are damaging one of our nations greatest assets and looking to smash it more. Who needs scientists and researchers right, what good did it ever do this country!
08:42am 16/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2172 posts
The Liberals are damaging one of our nations greatest assets and looking to smash it more. Who needs scientists and researchers right, what good did it ever do this country!


Its not what they did for the country, its what they did to conservative politics (sorry JFK).

The recent breakthrough with alzheimers by scientists directly threatens the retirement home industry, by potentially allowing residents to have a greater ability to scrutinise the cost of living there.
09:56am 16/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22460 posts
They can scrutinize the cost of living right now. Just go to www.myagedcare.gov.au.

The Alzheimers breakthrough is awesome.
10:20am 16/03/15 Permalink
taggs
6379 posts
Then there are people who buy Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and Aston Martin's.
Ironically I probably pay more tax a year than people who own the previously mentioned vehicles due tax laws that let multi-national billion dollar a year companies to pay less than Australian Companies.


lol
01:02pm 16/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1649 posts

You can't make this s*** up.

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/foreign-ownership-dominates-mining-industry-rba

The RBA said most estimates suggested four fifths of Australian mining operations were effectively owned by foreign interests.


Wahhhhh don't tax mining super profits, you are taxing the poor people trying to save for their retirements. What a f*****g waste.


07:55pm 16/03/15 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14532 posts
Shhh, you'll wake the mining giants. The last thing Liberal want is people to hear the truth.
07:58pm 16/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2173 posts
Shhh, you'll wake the mining giants. The last thing Liberal want is people to hear the truth.


Well then just a reminder;

https://scontent-nrt.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11024782_10152778842100954_7756133546673189412_n.jpg?oh=c6735aab0c309b2b6d3ee86f203074e9&amp;oe=558C00A8
08:09pm 16/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1962 posts
In Indonesia if a foreign mining company wishes to open up a mine the Indonesian government requires 49% shareholding and from what happend with Batu Hijau (a Newmont Copper/Gold Mine) after an agreed amount of time the Indonesian Government insists on majority ownership of a minimum 51%. Not one foreign company has declined to mine and yet in Australia our LNP faithful decry "Sovereign Risk" at the mere thought of a Super Profits mining tax which Rio and BHPB accepted. Mind boggles. I await infi and Faceman's bulls*** about something they know nothing about, Mining.

Just remember all the new Oil and Gas ventures offshore in WA are operating under a Rent Resources Tax (in essence similar to the MRRT) and it hasn't stopped one iota of foreign investment but again we'll hear more BS from infi how that's not the same and an MRRT will be "Sovereign Risk". It will be so funny I'll fall off my chair laughing at their wankerismic objections.
08:10pm 16/03/15 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11606 posts
You make it too costly to be here and they will go somewhere else in the World.
They arent a Charity, they arent Slaves.

The WA examples are Companies that can afford to pay a bit more.
...for the moment.






02:49am 17/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22464 posts
Just remember all the new Oil and Gas ventures offshore in WA are operating under a Rent Resources Tax (in essence similar to the MRRT) and it hasn't stopped one iota of foreign investment but again we'll hear more BS from infi how that's not the same and an MRRT will be "Sovereign Risk". It will be so funny I'll fall off my chair laughing at their wankerismic objections.


we are shutting down the coal industry so it won't really matter.
01:56pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17235 posts
Are we?


Mining companies eyeing off the massive untapped resources of Queensland's Galilee Basin insist the global downturn in the price of coal will prove no impediment to their future plans.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-15/mining-companies-still-upbeat-about-the-future-of-galilee-coal/6316880
02:31pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17236 posts
Wow Pyne is on another planet lol, and he's a front bencher.

Also:

I've fixed it.

You'll find out in the budget.

I want it to be a surprise for you. (seriously wtf)

This is all political speech for. "As yet we haven't found a source for this fix, we just threw a pile of cash at it and we will maybe balance it from something else later or we hope people will just forget."



last edited by Tollaz0r! at 14:36:39 17/Mar/15
02:34pm 17/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20547 posts
I saw the interview with pyne this morning on sunrise

My god what a little weasel f****tick c*** he is, i have never wanted to punch my the tv so badly
04:10pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1651 posts
I saw the interview with pyne this morning on sunrise

My god what a little weasel f****tick c*** he is, i have never wanted to punch my the tv so badly


I am telling you he is the bad guy from billy maddison.

04:25pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1963 posts
You make it too costly to be here and they will go somewhere else in the World.
They arent a Charity, they arent Slaves.

The WA examples are Companies that can afford to pay a bit more.
...for the moment
I'm going to educate you seeing how you have shown you know nothing of the mining industry in Australia.

Australia and Australians are the most productive miners in the world, a fact. For instance we produce iron ore per tonne at the lowest cost per tonne throughout the world. We beat hands down even Chinese iron ore miners whom have one the of the lowest wages per worker than anywhere in the world with the worst safety record on the planet. Overall the Chinese iron ore mines are closing and the iron ore mining industry in China is collapsing due to the fact they cannot compete with our Australian operations at the cost we produce. This makes your statement null and void and somewhat shows a large degree of ignorance and a belief , in many instances, you think you know what you're talking about when clearly you don't.

Now don't you nor infi go on about the majority of job losses in the industry is due to production costs. It is so far from the truth the mind boggles how you would even come to such a conclusion. The majority of job losses is due to the end of the EPCM phase ( Engineering, Procurement, Construction Management) i.e. the end of construction and handover of new large mines or expansion of existing mining operations in Australia to cater for greater and future growth. I'm just flabbergasted at how you could even arrive at your conclusions which it is evident you both possess an extreme lack of understanding of the Australian mining industry and yet you come on here and sprout absolute bulls*** as if you have have an idea. Shameful really.

we are shutting down the coal industry so it won't really matter.
What an absolutely glib statement and as a whole factually incorrect. I wouldn't have expected less from an ardent, uninformed troll like yourself infi. Again I'm amazed how easy you display your stupidity. I'll give you a hint as to why you are pretty good at showing hypocrisy and stupidity of the highest order, Adani, GVK/Hanc*** and the Galilee Basin.

Now even if you want to take this a couple of steps further, where we have experienced job losses due to cost of production vs commodity price the effect is not isolated to Australia. Every Coal miner in the world has suffered this impact/effect, not Australia alone and to suggest we are the only ones due to high costs and unionism is a disgrace on your part. Let's not even consider the fact that demand has been slipping for quite sometime so I'm truly amazed you haven't even had the decency to be truthful in your rhetoric of "disgusting high wages, bad unionism and lazy Australians is causing closures in Australia".

I wonder sometimes infi if you don't realise just how much a troll you are. You really should just stick to what you know, ripping off old people who are too senile to know they're being ripped off. But then I've come to the conclusion you have no interest in anything else but you're own selfish greed. As long as the policies of government benefit you and you alone you don't give two s**** about anybody else.
06:04pm 17/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22467 posts
We are moving to solar and renewables? Or are we sticking with coal. I never can tell.

So is it renewables that create the jobs or coal?

As renewables become more viable coal will be worth less and mines less profitable. Coal is the vast majority of Australia's mining industry.

It's a great industry to milk but the government is finding out now just how big the hole in mining revenue is going to become.

SFB putting the thesaurus into overtime today. You must have a lot of time on your hands.
06:29pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4439 posts
interesting post SFB. Makes sense thinking of it that way, we are more efficient regardless of wages/overheads.
06:52pm 17/03/15 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24943 posts
Wow, a you've got too much time on your hands style comeback. That's pretty lame even for you infi.

So what's the deal here. With Brool gone are you the last insane babbling idiot left or what?
07:53pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1964 posts
Coal is the vast majority of Australia's mining industry.
Again you are wrong. Coal would represent no more than a thrid of mining activity overall in Australia. Iron Ore, Gold, Copper, Zinc, Lead, and other heavy metals would equate to 2/3rds of our mining effort. BTW Australia is the second highest Gold producer in the world. Funny you didn't know that but then I expected you to know f*** all about mining.


It's a great industry to milk but the government is finding out now just how big the hole in mining revenue is going to become.
Another complete wank of a statement. I'm not even going to dignify this remark with a rebuttal, it truly isn't worth talking to someone who has bugger all idea. Let me just say it's only an LNP government that wouldn't have the balls in how to improve the budget bottom line with the mining industry without affecting it's prosperity.

SFB putting the thesaurus into overtime today. You must have a lot of time on your hands.
Oh gee, me thinks you need a better playbook. BTW c*** breath I like how you completely sideswipe any admittance your out of your depth re: Mining, Renewables and whatever s*** you talk about and I love how you babble on with other nonsense as a rouse to negate the fact you look like a complete goose. Please stick to grannies and grandpas, they'll never know you know f*** all about half the s*** you say.

interesting post SFB. Makes sense thinking of it that way, we are more efficient regardless of wages/overheads.
Absolutely Vash and this is why people like infi and Faceman should just STFU and stop looking like complete f***wits about costs of production in a field they know zero about. If they want to ply their trade in BS, do it on something no one else knows about cause then they might get away with it..
09:00pm 17/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20549 posts
The majority of job losses is due to the end of the EPCM phase ( Engineering, Procurement, Construction Management) i.e. the end of construction and handover of new large mines or expansion of existing mining operations in Australia to cater for greater and future growth.


To expand for some that might not get where that leads i assume that is handover to actual mining staff which takes far less people than during the EPCM phase?
09:22pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1965 posts


To expand for some that might not get where that leads i assume that is handover to actual mining staff which takes far less people than during the EPCM phase?
Spot on Pave.
09:44pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10409 posts

We are moving to solar and renewables? Or are we sticking with coal. I never can tell.

So is it renewables that create the jobs or coal?

Argumentum ad lapidem?


As renewables become more viable coal will be worth less and mines less profitable. Coal is the vast majority of Australia's mining industry.

Onus probandi?


SFB putting the thesaurus into overtime today. You must have a lot of time on your hands.

Argumentum ad hominem?

Wheel of Fallacy!
10:00pm 17/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17238 posts
Well well, Hockey got pwned on Q&A. So badly in fact, he started channeling Kevin Rudd, his greatest nightmare.
07:33am 18/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20552 posts
Abbott insulting the irish too, i didn't even know that was possible - but the big man has the skills
11:24am 18/03/15 Permalink
Vash
4440 posts
Heh literally everyday he says something ultimately dumb. Heading to a Greece style crisis? Really? Just really? Doing good work for business and consumer confidence right there mate.
11:46am 18/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1652 posts
Maybe they could look for some savings by not "educating" the public on their terrible "reforms"?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAVgO1vVAAArQes.jpg
11:49am 18/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17239 posts
This Trans-Pacific Partnership is starting to scare me. It's bulls*** that it is being done in secret. It is bulls*** that we, The People of Australia, wont seem to have a say in it. From leaked reports it doesn't seem very fair for Australia at all.
12:01pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17240 posts
Because people are kidnapping Gina all the time.
12:40pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15946 posts
So The Coalition is going to send the F*** University Students In The Bum Act 2015 back to the Senate unchanged? Given that the rejection was seen as a failboat from an impotent Government first time, sending it back is screaming DD election.

Which to me makes no sense politically given the state of the 2PP and generally stinky tone? What the f*** is going on here, team?
12:58pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1653 posts
Kidnap fears if large private companies publish tax details, says Coalition

Can't Make This S*** Up.


Gina kidnapping vehicle.

http://www.heromachinery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Rough-terrain-Crane.png

The TPP is indeed very scary Toll. It is a massive concern for pushing up the cost of medicines which will be a problem with our aging population.

Both of the major parties are just as much to blame for it being shrouded in secrecy.

Hopefully there are more leaks.
01:11pm 18/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2174 posts
Both of the major parties are just as much to blame for it being shrouded in secrecy.

Hopefully there are more leaks.


Actually, Labor refused to be part of the TPP if ISDS provisions remained and they had cut any ever-greening of patents for pharmaceuticals.
03:02pm 18/03/15 Permalink
nings
Gold Coast, Queensland
196 posts
The windows on that crane need blacking out as the site of Gina's face is considered an OH&s breach.
05:03pm 18/03/15 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2175 posts
The windows on that crane need blacking out as the site of Gina's face is considered an OH&s breach.


She would be on the hook not in the cabin.....
08:14pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15950 posts
I think he means that it would be unsafe for the operator to see the Rino.
08:23pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6692 posts
So The Coalition is going to send the F*** University Students In The Bum Act 2015 back to the Senate unchanged?


Don't you all understand?! Christopher Pyne is trying to get a good deal for students.
When universities can set their own fees they'll immediately drop them savagely due to the competitive market forces involved in attracting students through the door.

...either that or universities will be incentivised to extract as much money as they can out of students, fees will skyrocket to the level cashed up international students can pay, and we'll create a crippling student debt problem in a generation's time. Kind of like the one the United States is trying to deal with right now.

One or the other, I guess.
08:35pm 18/03/15 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20555 posts
Such a terrible f*****g idea, what is wrong with these c**** seriously
08:52pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1966 posts
I'm sure the primary driver for this legislation is Gina. She has an acute streak of insecurity and she finds enormous comfort in secrecy in all that she does. Look at her fight with her children and the way she behaved with anyone reporting about her like journalists (whom she sues) and Channel 9 (whom she sues). Now wait for inif to come on in and rant and rave about some nonsense re: "you all hate rich people and are seriously just jealous" which in fact is nothing of the sort but it will be his standard modus operandi whenever anyone has a go at rich people even if they are mighty f***wits and it's warranted.
09:07pm 18/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7114 posts
F*** YEAH! Me little mulim mate on the The Project sticks it our jelly back pollies.



email Sloppy and tell him to make sure the 'end of entitlement is over' for Negatively Geared property investors as well! F*****' cigar chompin hypocrite that he is.
10:24pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10413 posts
I have no problem with privatized education...

Please stop making me pay tax and providing education for free at any level.
I walk to work, so f*** the roads.
Got a rain tank, f*** the water.
I poo in random paper bags so f*** sewage...

Bring on the zombies.
10:27pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1968 posts
^ PMSL.
11:03pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10416 posts
Do you need a man nappy?
11:26pm 18/03/15 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1969 posts
Always have my incontinence pads a ready. Alas my prostrate often hinders such trivial bodily functions hence a good post can often leave one relieved. BTW I did laugh with no other reason other than I enjoyed your sarcasm immensely.
12:15am 19/03/15 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
39167 posts
hurry up election so we can throw these out of touch clowns out and move on with our country :(
06:29am 19/03/15 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7115 posts
^ Yeah but I can't see Kingslayer and his mates being much better.

Whoever wins we lose.
08:24am 19/03/15 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1654 posts
08:31am 19/03/15 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
17242 posts
This annoys me:


"A double dissolution is an option you have, it's not an option you invoke if you're behind, if you think you're going to lose.


The double dissolution is there in case the senate denies the government of getting bills passed, so it hits up the polls to get a mandate to do it. Fair enough. So they use a double dissolution to basically enact the will of the people.

If you are afraid of losing government with a double dissolution it means you kind of have the opposite of a mandate, you are trying to pass bills that are NOT the will of the people. If it is against the will of the people then You Are Doing It Wrong.

In other words, if the government is willing to use the mandate excuse (which they liberally do) then they should also be accepting when the opposite is true and drop/change their policies. That's the point of a Democracy, for better or for worse.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 08:50:45 19/Mar/15
08:49am 19/03/15 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
22471 posts
uni deregulation won't be successful while the government loans back the courses because this will inflate uni costs just as medicare has done to healthcare.

the true costs of products are only reflected in transparent pricing where the consumer feels the direct cost e.g. private schooling and childcare are very competitive. the price signal incentivises people to source out the best value for money provider.