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Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any progre...
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
597 posts
However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.


So it's not at all almost the exact opposite. Besides, I'm not the one making the claim that the "consensus" is the end of the argument. The burden of proof is on the claimant and the argument from authority is not an argument.
08:36am 17/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26363 posts
Kind of sick of hearing you being wrong about climate change and how scientific consensus works. Why don't you tell us your thoughts on Donald Trump and the deep state conspiracy attempting to undermine him instead?
12:54pm 17/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3149 posts
Hey dazed why don't you ask fpot to explain Russian collusion.

Personally I think a three country strike on Russian assets in Syria was exactly what Putin was trying to achieve by "electing" Trump.
01:12pm 17/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39563 posts
So it's not at all almost the exact opposite.
Not sure you read that quote right; it's the difference between a consensus and cherry picking "the opinion of a person or institution". Here is another definition that explains it better than I probably can.
Besides, I'm not the one making the claim that the "consensus" is the end of the argument.
The "argument" never ends though; science is a process. But there is a practical point at which you can say "there's no point in arguing about this any more because the currently available evidence, data and analysis is comprehensive enough to have formed a theory". That's pretty much where we are now.
The burden of proof is on the claimant and the argument from authority is not an argument.
yes that is why scientists have spent the last couple decades gathering data and analysing it and why the vast vast majority of them agree that something is going on here. their proof is the megatons of papers that have been published on the topic.

if you don't believe the specifics on scientific grounds then it's either that you disbelieve their data or you think their analysis is wrong. You've either done the work yourself and disagree based on one of these two areas - or you're deferring to an authority that does. I don't really have the energy to debate this topic again but I'd be interested in knowing why you think what you think, just out of morbid curiosity.
03:32pm 17/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3150 posts
It involves denial, dismissal, unwarranted doubt or contrarian views contradicting the scientific opinion on climate change, including the extent to which it is caused by humans, its impacts on nature and human society, or the potential of adaptation to global warming by human actions
. But there is a practical point at which you can say "there's no point in arguing about this any more because the currently available evidence, data and analysis is comprehensive enough to have formed a theory". That's pretty much where we are now.


Seems doubtful to me that you could say there is consensus beyond "human activity releasing certain chemicals into the atmosphere is strongly correlated with a general trend of rising temperatures measured globally supporting a causal inference"

Vash quote includes a lot more than though.

And let's not pretend he actually believes that. It's a safe bet he actually means the entire greens policy suite is supported by the aforementioned unassailable consensus.

So actually, when you talk about deferring to authority it is very easy to slip into the authority fallacy. It is exactly how vash is using it.
06:10pm 17/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
598 posts
Kind of sick of hearing you being wrong about climate change and how scientific consensus works. Why don't you tell us your thoughts on Donald Trump and the deep state conspiracy attempting to undermine him instead?


Your arguments are never more nuanced, complex or thought-out than "you're wrong" so I'll pass.

So actually, when you talk about deferring to authority it is very easy to slip into the authority fallacy. It is exactly how vash is using it.


This is what I was saying. I'm not getting into the climate change debate ever again, except for pointing out the broken logic of people supporting the golden idol of "scientific consensus".
08:50am 18/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39564 posts
I'm not getting into the climate change debate ever again
yeh I'm with you on that
except for pointing out the broken logic of people supporting the golden idol of "scientific consensus".
... as long as you remember almost literally everything else in your life around you that keeps you alive, ensures you're productive, allows you to type words on a magic box and have them transmitted around the world in a tiny amount of time and appearing on everyone's screen... all that stuff is done because of scientific consensus. it is not perfect, but it improves over time with new evidence and new data, and it's the best thing we have to inform us about the universe around us so that we can make informed decisions
09:01am 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3151 posts
as long as you remember almost literally everything else in your life around you that keeps you alive, ensures you're productive, allows you to type words on a magic box and have them transmitted around the world in a tiny amount of time and appearing on everyone's screen... all that stuff is done because of scientific consensus. it is not perfect, but it improves over time with new evidence and new data, and it's the best thing we have to inform us about the universe around us so that we can make informed decisions


Gee I wonder if trog realises how big a red herring this is.

There is a massive difference between understanding science's role in developing technology, and claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.
10:52am 18/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
917 posts
claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.
Not trolling but what do you even mean? I can't understand your point.
05:40pm 18/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
985 posts
Apparently there is scientific consensus that is loosely related so the theory is still open for debate.

I think my reset option #2 was simpler. What did you think of option 2?

Do you agree the cycle would just start again, because that's what humans and other animals and even plants tend to do?
05:53pm 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3152 posts
Not trolling but what do you even mean? I can't understand your point.


I don't feel it is especially complicated.

The scientific consensus on climate change is on a fairly narrow set of facts. Such as some human activity is a cause of climate change. So unless you're stating I believe human activity is a cause of climate change, if you cite the scientific consensus on climate change, you're performing a combination of a red herring and an appeal to authority. Specifically a fallacious appeal to authority.

Take an opinion, for example we should end coal fired power generation.

The global scientific consensus does not extend to that opinion. Ar5 of the IPCC explicitly makes a point of not endorsing specific policies because they quote "involve value judgements of a non scientific nature".

It follows that literally any political position almost certainly cannot appeal to the scientific consensus on climate change to support its argument, except for the utterly banal point that climate change is real.

Or to make a less controversial example, there is a scientific consensus that light affects certain chemicals in ways that cause us to experience colour which in turn allows for the creation of paint. You explain to me how that fact justifies painting a cat and not a dog.

or to put it in a suitably condescending c*** phrasing. I hate that you paint cats and not dogs, I hope you realise the scientific consensus on paint enables you to paint at all.
08:01pm 18/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2216 posts
Gee I wonder if trog realises how big a red herring this is.

There is a massive difference between understanding science's role in developing technology, and claiming opinion on a subject is incontrovertible because there is a scientific consensus loosely related but you can't even describe.


Is there a massive difference between coal fired power plants contributing to climate change and painting cats or dogs?
10:55pm 18/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3153 posts
That feeling when you mistake a red herring because you committed a straw man.

I don't think you understand what a scientific consensus is. That's ok. But I hope you realise that a scientific consensus allows you to write dreary logical fallacies on the internet.

It makes modern life possible don't you know.

Try replacing cats and dogs with banning gas powerplants or banning coal powerplants.
07:02am 19/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39566 posts
seems like a lot of effort and expense when a single page with "why bother" written in crayon would do the job
10:55am 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3154 posts
seems like a lot of effort and expense when a single page with "why bother" written in crayon would do the job


It funny that you block people who talk to you exactly as you talk to others.

I don't think you're giving enough respect to the scientific consensus on crayons here.
11:08am 19/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
918 posts

I don't feel it is especially complicated.
The scientific consensus on climate change is on a fairly narrow set of facts. Such as some human activity is a cause of climate change. So unless you're stating I believe human activity is a cause of climate change, if you cite the scientific consensus on climate change, you're performing a combination of a red herring and an appeal to authority. Specifically a fallacious appeal to authority.

Just gonna concentrate on this first paragraph because the rest doesn't really add anything. This is a really dumb argument to put forward. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, the current scientific consensus on climate change is based on few facts and does not take into account the whole picture... But you still think they're wrong.

You are arguing against the collective knowledge of several thousand people who have spent the majority of their adult life studying the climate. If you had 1001 plumbers telling you "don't dig there, it's a bad idea" yet you still think they're wrong? They haven't investigating ever facet of the problem, for what reason? If they could they would.

What a dumb argument.
11:57am 19/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24049 posts
You are arguing against the collective knowledge of several thousand people who have spent the majority of their adult life studying the climate. If you had 1001 plumbers telling you "don't dig there, it's a bad idea" yet you still think they're wrong? They haven't investigating ever facet of the problem, for what reason? If they could they would.


in global macro economics they call this "everyone being on one side of the boat". it's a classic opportunity to get squeezed, and typically the person who holds the other view makes a fortune because instead of being 99% right forecasters are generally less than 50% right. risk management means to have appropriately sized risks in either camp, and not betting the house (by say disabling your economic growth) on a strongly held view.
12:09pm 19/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26364 posts
Human caused climate change is a certainty. Not a near certainty, not a strong possibility, a certainty. Let's pretend for a moment though that it was a 50/50 proposition. Do you think taking measures to prevent it would be a worthy step despite the disruption to economic growth compared to pretending it doesn't exist and the catastrophe that would (will) entail?
12:21pm 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3155 posts

Just gonna concentrate on this first paragraph because the rest doesn't really add anything. This is a really dumb argument to put forward. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct, the current scientific consensus on climate change is based on few facts and does not take into account the whole picture... But you still think they're wrong.


I don't think it's possible for you to have misunderstood more profoundly.

The consensus is about certain facts in the natural world.

It does not tell you what you should do.

The IPCC explicitly make this statement.

The fact that coal powerplants contribute to climate change does not without more justify turning them all off. This is because there are a range of other considerations and options which the climate science is silent on.

Acknowledgeing these other important factors absolutely does not run against the scientific consensus on climate change. It is the opinion of The scientific community which forms the IPCC. They freely acknowledge other factors may trump their input. Nothing about that says climate science is wrong.

I am directly quoting from their report my emphasis

Natural, technical, and social sciences can provide essential information and evidence needed for decisions on what constitutes "dangerous anthropogenic interference" with the climate system. At the same time, such decisions are value judgments determined through socio-political processes, taking into account considerations such as development, equity, and sustainability, as well as uncertainties and risk. Scientific evidence helps to reduce uncertainty and increase knowledge, and can serve as an input for considering precautionary measures.1 Decisions are based on risk assessment, and lead to risk management choices by decision makers, about actions and policies


I don't know how to make it clearer to you.

The scientific consensus doesn't without a broad range of other considerations justify a particular policy. The peak body representing climate scientists is very clear on this point.

So call it a dumb argument if you want. It's the argument made by the 1000 plumbers you're talking about.
12:31pm 19/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24050 posts
appropriately sized measures, yes. a carbon tax, reducing the standard of living and funding larger bureaucracy, is not an appropriately sized measure actively . encouraging energy efficiency and allowing the natural evolution of alternative energy sources is.

i think it is far more important for major emitters to make significant reductions, than to expect minnows to start first. it is technological innovation which will pave the way for less energy usage and investment which delivers financial returns.
12:36pm 19/04/18 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
919 posts

Ahaha the IPCC is a bureaucratic s***hole on the same level as the WHO and UN. It is a juggernaut whose movements and results are more akin to a sloth on a highway. Continuing this analogy, if IPCC is a sloth, global warming is a jaguar. We are so f***ed.

FYI that quote is from a report 11 years ago, which itself is quoting a 2001 report.

You are also ignoring a very important note, scientists have shifted from "we can stop climate change" to "we're f***ed, how do we manage the situation?". This is evident all the way back nearly 20 years ago. Everytime you claim I am appealing to authority, you quote IPCC.... nice appeal to authority. Also quoting a tiny bit of a IPCC summary of another IPCC report is itself a red herring. Let's go see what the IPCC says...


The reason for incorporating other non-scientific factors:

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/vol4/index.php?idp=7

The climate change issue is part of the larger challenge of sustainable development. As a result, climate policies can be more effective when consistently embedded within broader strategies designed to make national and regional development paths more sustainable. This occurs because the impact of climate variability and change, climate policy responses, and associated socio-economic development will affect the ability of countries to achieve sustainable development goals. Conversely, the pursuit of those goals will in turn affect the opportunities for, and success of, climate policies. In particular, the socio-economic and technological characteristics of different development paths will strongly affect emissions, the rate and magnitude of climate change, climate change impacts, the capability to adapt, and the capacity to mitigate.


The scientific consensus is not "loosely related", it directly drives the actions required to deviate from the path of destruction. Other factors are incorporated into decision making to increase the effect of the outcome.

info: f*** you for putting profits first.
01:49pm 19/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26365 posts
encouraging energy efficiency and allowing the natural evolution of alternative energy sources is.
This sounds suspiciously like do nothing and hope everything turns out fine to me, which in the context of the 50/50 scenario I gave you is not so bad I guess.

The reality is that climate change is real, it's too late to stop it and now the only goal is to minimise the damage it causes - do you still think the do nothing and hope approach is still appropriate?
02:11pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
986 posts
I keep telling you guys #2, the reset option is the way.

We can have a revolution with placards and everything. Cumon, lets do it this Saturday at about lunch time.

Maybe we could discuss option #3 Candle vigil, with thoughts and prayers for our dieing planet.

We could link arms and sing kum-by-yah and have a peaceful protest of love. Maybe we do that at night, cause the candles look better in the dark.

#2 will be the most fun.

https://mdrtresourcezone.blob.core.windows.net/web-site/image/_asset/e6385eacfc1c42e7aea3a77d00e72b82/reset button.jpg
04:18pm 19/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3156 posts
In the paragraph directly above the one you quote. My emphasis.

The basis for determining what constitutes "dangerous anthropogenic interference" will vary among regions -- depending both on the local nature and consequences of climate change impacts, and also on the adaptive capacity available to cope with climate change -- and depends upon mitigative capacity, since the magnitude and the rate of change are both important. There is no universally applicable best set of policies; rather, it is important to consider both the robustness of different policy measures against a range of possible future worlds, and the degree to which such climate-specific policies can be integrated with broader sustainable development policies.


They repeatedly state concerns beyond climate change mitigation can and should be incorporated into policy. You say it yourself when you talk about making them effective. If you destroy people's standard of living in the process you will not get the political will necessary to make a change. I really don't understand how you don't understand this.

FYI that quote is from a report 11 years ago, which itself is quoting a 2001 report.


The issue of policy matters beyond climate change is in the 2014 report. Its like there is no real doubt among the experts on this point.

This is evident all the way back nearly 20 years ago. Everytime you claim I am appealing to authority, you quote IPCC.... nice appeal to authority. Also quoting a tiny bit of a IPCC summary of another IPCC report is itself a red herring. Let's go see what the IPCC says...


See this is you misunderstanding the point profoundly. But it's pretty funny to be chastised about climate science for agreeing with what the peak body on climate science says about how to develop policy.

If you can provide a better source for a synthesis of the state of the research I'm all ears.

The authority fallacy happens when you claim the scientific consensus supports your opinion when it doesn't. Given what they state they have consensus on the range of policies that could unequivocally supported by the consensus is correspondingly narrow.
05:34pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2217 posts
I keep telling you guys #2, the reset option is the way.

We can have a revolution with placards and everything. Cumon, lets do it this Saturday at about lunch time.

Maybe we could discuss option #3 Candle vigil, with thoughts and prayers for our dieing planet.

We could link arms and sing kum-by-yah and have a peaceful protest of love. Maybe we do that at night, cause the candles look better in the dark.

#2 will be the most fun.


The reset option happened after the world wars, it's discussed in the Pickety book i mentioned earlier. There was less inequality after war. I don't think he had data for the french revolution.

Given that war and revolution would be the very last options on the table don't you think wealth taxes would be the most sensible way forward?
09:46pm 19/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39567 posts
This sounds suspiciously like do nothing and hope everything turns out fine to me, which in the context of the 50/50 scenario I gave you is not so bad I guess.

The reality is that climate change is real, it's too late to stop it and now the only goal is to minimise the damage it causes - do you still think the do nothing and hope approach is still appropriate?
the important thing is to make sure that under no circumstances we tax anyone no matter how badly they're taking advantage of externalities to be profitable at the expense of everyone else
11:13pm 19/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
987 posts
don't you think wealth taxes would be the most sensible way forward?


I think if super rich people started pumping out more children and educating them, while the super poor stopped breeding completely, things would start getting more sensible.

The savings would provide such an abundance of wealth that even the poorest would have a quantum leap in living standards. The super rich could hire the super poor as help around the house. The super rich could house and feed all the poor. You would need a good way to deal with the help if they were lazy though. Maybe military for a couple years would help motivate them?

Also, "#2 Reset" is inevitable. One day a meteor will wipe us out, and then the cycle will start again.
08:10pm 20/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5770 posts
Nmag you need to be more subtle with the trolling. Learn from PP.
08:38pm 20/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26367 posts
Yeah paraphrasing Russian Twitter bots worked very well for PP maybe you should give that a crack.
08:59pm 20/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3157 posts
Yeah paraphrasing Russian Twitter bots worked very well for PP maybe you should give that a crack.


Glorious. Everything that doesn't fit into my uninformed world view (which is slightly less mature than a 13 year old's) is "Russian bots".

Makes sense he identifies high school student political thought.
09:34pm 20/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
988 posts
Many social liberal ideals are very suitable for young single lifestyle, but become a lot less relatable after people get into their 30s, get married, and have kids - now the thought of "family values" or "protecting the children" is a lot more relevant. Having children is a strong predictor of more right-wing social views.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-generally-as-citizens-become-more-right-wing-as-we-grow-older

As I could explain it, eventually the penny drops that the people who are committing crimes that put you and your family at risk are most likely scum that are being funded through welfare by their victims. Also as you get wiser you realise there are people who suffer from "laziness" and the same people tend to want to blame others. You start to notice that losers are less likely to accept responsibility for their own poor state of affairs, more likely to blame or despise the successful, and are very quick at finding excuses and convincing each other than 'someone else is to blame'. You start to wonder if these people had put more effort into competitive team sport they might be better adjusted at understanding that achievement comes with effort and lazy players go on the bench, or do not get selected for the team.

So then you start to wonder.. why are we supporting losers so much? And you realise that if we did not, crime would go through the roof.
11:51am 21/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7846 posts
05:48pm 21/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39571 posts
never heard of that person but she sounds like a WILD CARD
10:00am 22/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7847 posts
Lol Scott Morrison said we didn't need a Banking Royal Commission.

11:26am 22/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2218 posts
05:24pm 22/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3158 posts
Is that really how you summarise that video?
05:38pm 22/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7848 posts
Kelly O'Liar

06:59pm 22/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2219 posts
Is that really how you summarise that video?

Yep i summarised it in 1 sentence because I am a big brain man. Please defend the video, instead of just posting some contrarian s***.
09:46pm 22/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3159 posts
If that "big brain" of yours reached Bill shorten was the cause of the delay based on Morrison's words in that video you may need to see a doctor cause it ain't grey matter taking up the space.

The question was should he apologize for questioning the need for a commission at all.

The answer to that is still no. Bill wanted the commission as payback for the union Commission, in the hope it would be equally embarrassing for the libs.

His comments about shorten are precise.

If Billy Boy was serious he should have able to put forward draft terms of reference.
07:40am 23/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24051 posts
I saw this and immediately thought of the Socialist nuts on QGL.

https://i.imgur.com/cFkiXnN.jpg
07:21pm 23/04/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13748 posts
none of those are real socialism - we've never tried the version of socialism I'm a proponent of
10:36am 24/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
989 posts

This website will provide insight into how to cope with infi's image regarding 'fictional country'.

https://circuitglobe.com/difference-between-short-circuit-and-overload.html


01:30pm 24/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
599 posts
none of those are real socialism - we've never tried the version of socialism I'm a proponent of


Yes that's because it is only possible in a fantasy universe.
04:19pm 24/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39574 posts
06:07pm 24/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26370 posts
Someone somewhere in a fantasy universe is describing our universe as a fantasy universe.
07:30pm 24/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3160 posts
speaking of fantasy universes

It's unbecoming to masturbate to your idea of a libertarian argument in public trog. Please keep your fantasies to yourself.
07:56pm 24/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24052 posts
speaking of fantasy universes


an edgy yet ignorant attempt to poke fun at actual libertarian philosophy. i had to bleach my eyes.

Someone somewhere in a fantasy universe is describing our universe as a fantasy universe.


meta, incomprehensible.
08:49pm 24/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39575 posts
the ironing is delicious
09:11pm 24/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2221 posts
Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?

China's ruling party says they're communist. So obviously they completely are. Checkmate capitalists.
09:50pm 24/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3161 posts
the ironing is delicious


for who.

Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?


Wow, that "big brain" of yours thought that was a point or something. I get how your summary managed to not capture a single thing Morrison said now. You also need to like talk with Vash. He seems to think the name is not that important.
10:14pm 24/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24053 posts
China's ruling party says they're communist. So obviously they completely are. Checkmate capitalists.


oh that's brilliance.
10:17pm 24/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5771 posts
Why do the anti communist/socialist arguments always bring up Venezuela but not China?


It's interesting isn't it. A state controlled economy, with market elements (just like Venezuela) has an economy growing faster than the libertarian paradise that is the USA, yet they're very quiet about China.
12:07am 25/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6550 posts



It's interesting isn't it. A state controlled economy, with market elements (just like Venezuela) has an economy growing faster than the libertarian paradise that is the USA, yet they're very quiet about China.
literally the first econ 101 on the subject i could google

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solow%E2%80%93Swan_model

Just in case that was hard to understand and just to make clear why literally every historically underdeveloped economy has outgrown developed economies in absolute growth terms on an avg basis when opened up to market forces edit: or even when not (see Paul Samuelson's famous (repeatedly wrong over decades) forecasts in the geeky econ community as a prime example) AND they haven't been retarded by terrible governance, s***** dictators or other dumb ass s*** (i.e. % yoy over time for a prolonged basis).

Mathematically a high growth rate off a low base.... f*** me why am i posting in this thread. f***
04:08am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3162 posts
the ironing is delicious

for who.


TFW we aren't saying Venezuela is model to follow that's a strawman, and then Vash happens. The ironing is truly very good at this place troggles

pointing to the amazing GDP growth of a country that can get economic growth just by providing enough food (because they don't at the moment). Ah you can't buy this kind of entertainment.
08:36am 25/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7849 posts
China is a polluted, over populated hell hole. Where most human beings are reduced to rice powered robots so the world can have cheap s***.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 10:39:01 25/Apr/18
10:36am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3163 posts
China is a polluted, over populated hell hole.


No see China is a workers paradise where everyone lives perfect lives and walks around in a softly perfumed bubble. Which is why anti-communists are backed into such a corner.

redhat got confused when Deng started talking about the colour of cats didn't you big brains. It's ok. he was being "metaphorical". It's a trap for young players.
10:51am 25/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24054 posts
pointing to the amazing GDP growth of a country that can get economic growth just by providing enough food (because they don't at the moment).


and has bank debt 2.5x that of USA. I thought the US government economy was f***ed until I started reading about China. Luckily for the Chinese government, if the citizens start to get antsy they can just shoot them or crush them with tanks.

I honestly can't believe Vash now refers to China as the socialist paradise.

Finland ends basic income experiment.
10:58am 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5772 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.
11:56am 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3164 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.


haha jesus, it's like watching a three-year-old, but with a shorter attention span.

Why would China surpassing the US economically be a thorn in the side of an anti-communist?

Serious question redhat, does vash ever make you facepalm? He produces a never-ending stream of illiterate nonsense. Surely it must upset you to see your best arguments mauled so badly.
12:18pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
990 posts
Chinese are brainwashed by the state from birth. Listening to someone from China supporting communism is like listening to a door-to-door Joseph Smith follower.

One day in the lunch room at this place I once worked, this ex Chinese woman asks me what I think about communism, and then proceeds to explain that it works quite well in China. I did't make any comment, but I did have some thoughts about what I'd like to say to her. She was some low paid office admin idiot. I couldn't believe she came out with her comments.

There should have been some phone number I can ring to report we have a treasonous spy from China working here and needs to be returned to a national with a political environment more aligned with her views.
02:57pm 25/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39576 posts
When did i say it was a Socialist paradise? Economically, they're going to surpass the U.S in the not too distant future. Funny all the strawmans coming out from all corners after that one.
who gives a s*** if they don't have a democracy and all their wealthy citizens are desperately trying to offshore their wealth by buying real estate outside of the country

I wouldn't take America's GDP as an indicator of how great it is and I don't recommend doing it for China either
03:08pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5773 posts
Yes all horrid things. But you dont hear China as a failed Socialist or Communist experiment do you? It's economic might is on display for all.
03:59pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3165 posts
But you dont hear China as a failed Socialist or Communist experiment do you? It's economic might is on display for all.


Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?
05:02pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2223 posts
Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?

Yeah it's completely a free market. hahahahahahhahhahahhahahhhahahhahah
07:32pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3166 posts
Yeah it's completely a free market. hahahahahahhahhahahhahahhhahahhahah


You don't know what the Shanghai free trade zone is, do you redhat?

The simple fact is their increase in wealth is directly attributable to the amount of socialism they drop, and they are dropping more by the day.

Venture capital is going gangbusters in China redhat. Hardly a socialist enterprise I'm sure you'll agree.
08:45pm 25/04/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7850 posts
China is now more of a "capitalize the profits for a few and socialize the losses for the masses" type of deal.
09:20pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2224 posts


You don't know what the Shanghai free trade zone is, do you redhat?

The simple fact is their increase in wealth is directly attributable to the amount of socialism they drop, and they are dropping more by the day.

Venture capital is going gangbusters in China redhat. Hardly a socialist enterprise I'm sure you'll agree.


Correlation = causation, more news from the intellectual giant known as porno pete.

Yeah I don't know anything about shanghai trade zones, seems pretty specific if we're discussing china as a whole. Have you actually read anything? What do you read in your spare time with regards to economic policy I'd like to know.
09:27pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3167 posts

Correlation = causation, more news from the intellectual giant known as porno pete.


haha good one redhat. Guess the 40 years of starvation and economic stagnation before deng were only "correlated" with socialism.

Have you actually read anything? What do you read in your spare time with regards to the economic policy I'd like to know.


Ah yeah so I studied WTO law, how to set up companies in China, the Australia China BIT, the basic contract law of China, and dabbled in Chinese bankruptcy scenarios as part of my degree. so I've literally read thousands of pages on how to do business in China. I also worked for a company that did a lot of business in China. Let's just say economic liberalisation in China came up a bit (as in continuously, and is continuously credited with its turn around in poverty).

I'm pretty comfortable with the CCP 30-year trend of trying liberal economic experiments, and those experiments being deployed to the entire nation. The Shanghai free trade zone being one of the more recent, and a full-blown attempt deregulated trade. It is an experiment and if they like the outcome they'll expand it. Given the rumblings out of their securities regulator about establishing institutional investors, it sounds like they like it so far.

I recently listened to a talk by peter thiel about access to venture capital in China which is where that venture capital comment came from. given he is a venture capitalist with a few billion to his name he probably knows what he is talking about.

What do you read redhat?
09:55pm 25/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5774 posts
Venezuela also has free trade zones, and a large private industry. But the country's economy is collapsing, because of Socialism right? And because China is succeeding, it's because of Capitalism now. Heh.
10:19pm 25/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3168 posts
Venezuela also has free trade zones, and a large private industry. But the country's economy is collapsing, because of Socialism right? And because China is succeeding, it's because of Capitalism now. Heh.


Please try and pack more dumb into a couple of sentences. I was definitely hanging my hat on a single liberal economic experiment in the case of China, and not the four decades of successive trade liberalisation the free trade zone is an example of. What a f*****g idiot.


Anywho

speaking of fantasy universes


infi's meme was definitely attacking a crude rendition of people's actual beliefs. It's not like people would insist that socialism makes china and venezuela awesome or anything.
10:31pm 25/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
600 posts
speaking of fantasy universes


My favourite part is where trog thinks I want absolute anarcho-capitalism. My second-favourite part is where you need to make an absurd story to debunk a fantasy libertarian state whereas you just have to look at the last 12 months in any communist country to see far worse.
08:06am 26/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24056 posts
it was written by a second year lit student who has a beret and a mac.
08:41am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39577 posts
My favourite part is where trog thinks I want absolute anarcho-capitalism.
You've been too careful (or gutless?!) to say what you actually want; remember this conversation started (continued?) because you posted a long boring video about how capitalism is the only thing that ever did anything good for humanity. So what do you want? If you want the continuation of what we have now except with the slider favoured towards capitalism instead of socialism, then woohoo, you're almost exactly the same as me except tilted slightly in the opposite direction. How different we are!
My second-favourite part is where you need to make an absurd story
I assume you know I didn't make it but it's hard to tell and words mean things and facts matter so just want to make sure we're all on the same page
you just have to look at the last 12 months in any communist country to see far worse.
wat, strawman, we haven't been talking about communism
08:49am 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
601 posts
...capitalism is the only thing that ever did anything good for humanity


Nope. Strawman irony below VVV

wat, strawman, we haven't been talking about communism


Communism could be seen as the extreme of socialism as anarcho-capitalism is to libertarianism. I don't know if you're pretending you don't get this basic stuff or you actually don't get it.
09:24am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39578 posts
Nope. Strawman irony below VVV
I made this claim earlier and you didn't call it out as a strawman then. It's not, anyway, but it's possible I misinterpreted the video because I only skipped through it. Maybe you can summarise the video and point out what I misunderstand?
Communism could be seen as the extreme of socialism as anarcho-capitalism is to libertarianism. I don't know if you're pretending you don't get this basic stuff or you actually don't get it.
Speaking of basic stuff, are we talking about "your favourite part" - what you want, or what you don't want? maybe you could pick a conversational thread and run with it instead of deflecting or changing the topic when you're called out on it again and again and again and again
10:20am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39579 posts
it was written by a second year lit student who has a beret and a mac.
man that article (which is a piece of comedic satire) really touched a nerve amongst some of us didn't it. I'm going to POST IT AGAIN AND AGAIN
10:21am 26/04/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13750 posts
^ here in the UK we consider that sort of trolling to be a hate crime
catch yerself on trog (if that's even your real name)
10:39am 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39581 posts
^ here in the UK we consider that sort of trolling to be a hate crime
I'm already worried I'm tripping over 18C rules here
10:41am 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
602 posts
I am not going into what I believe. I'd prefer people put their feet in their mouth and troll that.
11:45am 26/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24057 posts
I'm already worried I'm tripping over 18C rules here


it's sad that thought is policed so heavily in Australia.

The article is cringey - like a uni assignment designed to impress his leftist professor. And I doubt it influenced a single person - the real test of satire.
05:20pm 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
603 posts
08:23pm 26/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26373 posts
So you've gone from a 'I am the dark and mysterious internet smart maens none shall ever know the deep complexities that swirl within me' to 'complex legal/medical issues are socialism's fault' while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro, that's one for the future scholars to figure out as they sift through the ruins of the Ausgamers forum. Who was this man? Was he the benevolent saviour of the alt-right subterfuging his way to the very top of the forum with his bastardised Shapiro and Posobiec regurgatite? Or was he just another scared loney little boy bleating his sad howls into the black hole of the internet, the last thing on earth that will tolerate him?
09:11pm 26/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5775 posts
Behold, the glory of socialism


Surely you linked the wrong article. Or would you care to explain how that has anything to do with Socialism...?
09:17pm 26/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3169 posts
while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro,


It's funny someone who links to crikey and the guardian calls out someone's source.

man that article (which is a piece of comedic satire) really touched a nerve amongst some of us didn't it.


so the blow by blow

infi posts meme which accurately reflects vash's and apparently a few others views on socialism.

Trog, deciding it was a strawman, posts a story which is a strawman of infis views (subtext "see I can strawman you too").

Vash promptly confirms infi's meme is accurate.

Trog gets sad that people point out that the strawman is asymmetrical and claims infi is super upset over his post.
09:52pm 26/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
604 posts
So you've gone from a 'I am the dark and mysterious internet smart maens none shall ever know the deep complexities that swirl within me' to 'complex legal/medical issues are socialism's fault' while citing the daily f*****g wire of all places. No-one's got you figured out bro, that's one for the future scholars to figure out as they sift through the ruins of the Ausgamers forum. Who was this man? Was he the benevolent saviour of the alt-right subterfuging his way to the very top of the forum with his bastardised Shapiro and Posobiec regurgatite? Or was he just another scared loney little boy bleating his sad howls into the black hole of the internet, the last thing on earth that will tolerate him?


Can anyone else hear some buzzing around here?
09:57pm 26/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
991 posts
Literally because they stopped trying to run their economy in the communist style. How is the level of stupidity possible?


Oh Vash I think we struck gold on this page. Shall we give it to Trog so he can divide it out evenly?

and this

China is now more of a "capitalize the profits for a few and socialize the losses for the masses" type of deal.


Maybe if Trog did divide up the gold evenly and handed it out, someone would like to take a small bit extra cause human nature?

Not in Vashland where it rains fairy glitter, and unicorns run wild.

Where is fpot hasn't replied to my true anecdote? He asked for more of them.
10:24pm 26/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39582 posts
it's sad that thought is policed so heavily in Australia.
You are confusing 'thought' with 'speech', but with that correction, I'm still not sure I disagree
The article is cringey - like a uni assignment designed to impress his leftist professor. And I doubt it influenced a single person - the real test of satire.
you seem influenced as f***! so is the dude that wrote non-libertarian version (who explains in a postscript that he simply cannot understand why libertarians are the target of so many jokes). IT'S A FUNNY PIECE OF WRITING DUDE, not a critical analysis.
09:39am 27/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39583 posts
Behold, the glory of socialism
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters

tldr: the state was not involved
09:45am 27/04/18 Permalink
Vash
5776 posts
Even if the state was involved, it has nothing to do with Socialism. Dazed chose his name well.
10:09am 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
605 posts
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters

tldr: the state was not involved


Are you legitimately claiming that the court's application of legislation is "the state was not involved"? Wow.

By the way, did you read the thread in your second link? It's hard to argue against socialists when they don't even know they are socialists.
10:22am 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26374 posts
I guess Ronny Jackson won't be taking up that rather ahem... rewarding position after all.
12:35pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3170 posts
You seem influenced as f***! so is the dude that wrote non-libertarian version (who explains in a postscript that he simply cannot understand why libertarians are the target of so many jokes). IT'S A FUNNY PIECE OF WRITING DUDE, not a critical analysis.


Gee saying the "funny" piece of writing isn't very funny, and written in the style of an unwashed under grad with pretensions of being "the people's poet" is really striking a nerve with poor old trog.
02:05pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24058 posts
i am lost as to how one could think it was funny. did you think it was funny trog? was it entertaining to you? did it contribute to discourse?
02:21pm 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26375 posts
An image of a politician from the in power party threatening the peace and love party with death - a hilarious image unfairly treated by the fun police.

A piece of satire whose accuracy is confirmed by the gushing tears of the extreme lolbertarians in this very thread - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
02:26pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3171 posts
piece of satire whose accuracy is confirmed by the gushing tears of the extreme lolbertarians in this very thread - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


Seems like trog is the only one crying until now.
02:37pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24059 posts
i was feeling confused about the point of the "satire".
02:41pm 27/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26376 posts
That's because you're one of the dumbest people alive and without a hint of self-awareness.
02:56pm 27/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
992 posts
Check out these commies marching in Beijing:

https://i.imgur.com/pCGsYf4.jpg
03:05pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3172 posts
Watch fpot go
03:15pm 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
606 posts
I reckon fpot is only this angry on the internet. I reckon in real life he's a big sweetie.
05:56pm 27/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24060 posts
It's an outlet. It's hard when you know you're the smartest person in the room but no one acknowledges it.
06:03pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3173 posts
FYI one of those silly American talking heads had a similar hot take on this and was disassembled on the twitters tldr: the state was not involved


See the trouble with Twitter is that bots reign supreme (so I'm told, you can paraphrase russian ones). Poor old trog got played by the secret barrister.

She says omg the department of health isn't a party to the proceeding haugh haugh haugh the government (in the narrow sense of the executive) wasn't involved, dummies.

But the applicant is the "Alder Hey Children's NHS Foundation Trust". Which is the Adler Hey Children's Hospital division of the NHS Foundation Trust.

You can google who controls the National Health Service Foundation Trust. I don't want to ruin the surprise.

tldr: the state was not involved


tldr: trog is as wrong as its possible to get, thanks to Twitter. Those bots. They'll gecha.
06:46pm 27/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6553 posts
Probably could have stopped reading when someone claiming to be a barrister used the word legislative as a noun, tbh.

But the general argument that unless the party to a legal proceeding is a minister on behalf of the crown then you aren't dealing with the government is just silly.
08:16pm 27/04/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39585 posts
Probably could have stopped reading when someone claiming to be a barrister used the word legislative as a noun, tbh.
Are you talking about the 2nd post in that Secret Barrister thread? if I go back with my anal English reading pants on I can see what you mean but you can just read it as an adjective and move on with your life and then think about the rest of the comments independently of minor lapses
But the general argument that unless the party to a legal proceeding is a minister on behalf of the crown then you aren't dealing with the government is just silly.
well, that wasn't the claim made by whatshisface earlier - it was about 'socialism'. edit: my comment was mostly about noting that blaming "socialism" broadly on the actions of a few doctors/administrators is full on moronic, right?

Re: my comment though: I guess I distinguish between "the state" and "the government", which I would concede might just be semantics, but given in the UK something like 15% of the population work for "the government" in some form or another it's kind of inevitable that at some point you're going to cross paths with THE MAN. Obviously "the government" is involved in many things, like if you have to drive somewhere, but the level of their agency in certain decisions actually matters

edit #2: I';ll be honest, I read the twitter thing and took it as way more authoritative than the blogspam that whatshisname posted. it's quite possible that dude is way off in his interpretation but maybe there's a link or something that looks at it in more detail than his misuse of grammar?
08:31pm 27/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3174 posts
Dude the simple fact is the hospital as an agent of the state sued to be allowed to turn off life support to the kid. All the "doctors not the state" were called as expert witnesses for the state.

The state far from being not involved was balls deep in it. And I mean in the exact narrow sense the barrister said it didn't. One post in and getting the law wrong is not a good look, unless the point is to rely on an absurd technicality to look the big man in front of your target audience. Seems like mission accomplished.

The rest of the argument is saying that the best interests of the child as determined by experts (specifically state experts) trump the wishes of the parents is the law of the land. Which it maybe but that is where the philosophical argument kicks in.

That's the tldr.

The "barrister" lied by omission.

You bought it cause it played to your ideological preferences. In exactly the same way dazed did I might add.

And as far as socialism maybe a crude short hand, it is still the case that the state argued it knew better than the parents what was best for the child. There is a real question about the limits of the state to intrude into private lives there. And as much as you're calling dazeds shorthand moronic you've hardly covered yourself in glory.
08:50pm 27/04/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
607 posts
Post limited again just like I was a decade ago even though my posts weren't deleted. Weird moderating.
12:08am 29/04/18 Permalink
taggs
6554 posts
Are you talking about the 2nd post in that Secret Barrister thread? if I go back with my anal English reading pants on I can see what you mean but you can just read it as an adjective and move on with your life and then think about the rest of the comments independently of minor lapses


Yeah I know it sounds petty as f*** to a layperson (which i also am fwiw) but as someone who deals with lawyers every day as part of my job and knows first hand how pedantic many (but not all omg let's not generalise) can be I just actually can't picture in my mind's eye a barrister, i.e. someone who literally is paid thousands of dollars an hour to be very particular about language, makes that mistake. But tbh let's ignore that cause it's a nothing thing. (edit: irony of writing such a long para about something so petty not lost on me)

Sorry, to be fair I was lashing out at the dumb twitter post because this whole situation seems so f*****g stupid and it feel so gross that it's becoming a political rallying point for both the left and right. I can sort of get my head around the state refusing to treat a patient (though that is an ethical question with a lot of hairs that i haven't thought through). What I can't get my head around is the state forcibly stopping a family from leaving the country to receive treatment that the state isn't willing to offer. If that's getting this situation wrong I'm honestly interested in the counter argument is.
12:43am 29/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26378 posts
On my phone at work but the position of the NHS was that treatment wasn't possible and that travel to Italy would only cause undue suffering for no benefit. Can't easily find any details on what treatment Italy was offering or how effective it might have been. Alfie has sadly passed away.
01:01am 29/04/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3175 posts
I don't think it is a nothing thing taggs. I think the following two things are closely linked. It isn't a small mistake. The idea that the NHS of the UK *isn't the government* or the state (which is a distinction without a difference in this case) is so wrong a layperson nudged will instantly see the problem.

But tbh let's ignore that cause it's a nothing thing
Sorry, to be fair I was lashing out at the dumb twitter post because this whole situation seems so f*****g stupid and it feel so gross that it's becoming a political rallying point for both the left and right


The mistake, if it was one, is part of the political rallying. So desperate to paint the otherside as knuckle dragging morons for seeing anything at all worth raising a eyebrow about, this so called barrister is willing to obscure the fact the NHS is plainly and obviously part of the executive government. Let's not forget in any other circumstances we'd be hearing about how amazing the NHS is and how dumb Republican Americans are for not wanting it. All of a sudden the NHS isn't the government, oh and Republican Americans are dumb for thinking it is. What utter twaddle.

On my phone at work but the position of the NHS was that treatment wasn't possible and that travel to Italy would only cause undue suffering for no benefit. Can't easily find any details on what treatment Italy was offering or how effective it might have been. Alfie has sadly passed away.


On what planet is that anyone's call but the parents. Climb down in 10, 9....
09:35am 29/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24061 posts
What I can't get my head around is the state forcibly stopping a family from leaving the country to receive treatment that the state isn't willing to offer.


I would expect that behaviour in Russia or China, but England....

parents should (where the State has cut a patient loose) be entitled to pursue any further viable treatment options they want. And if they want to leave the country then why would the government care?
12:42pm 29/04/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26379 posts
To steer the conversation towards a controversial issue that we actually may all agree on - legalising cannabis - total no brainer at this point don't you think? I accept that it's quite a dramatic change and that certain pollies will need to be against it before they get a sense of the temperature but here's hoping the multiple real world examples of it being a success count for something.
03:41pm 30/04/18 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1121 posts
Make it subject to similar restrictions as smoking cigarettes (in terms of where you can't do it to avoid second hand smoke etc.) and realistic/scientifically backed restrictions similar to alcohol (for things like driving) then yeah, should tote(lly) (heh) be legal.
06:39pm 30/04/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24062 posts
I just bought into a legal weed farm in Queensland. Let's hope for a 40 bagger.

Cann Group is about to be taken over for $500m.
08:18pm 30/04/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
993 posts
ABC news website:

South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program.


Story sits at bottom of all other stories at 5:30 pm peak time. Story is not about "why" South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program, but instead about wether Trump could actually be in the running to get one. Well nice left wing play there ABC.

I think the important part in the wall of text they wrote is:

South Korean President Moon Jae-in reckons Donald Trump should get a peace prize for trying to end the standoff with North Korea over its nuclear weapons program.


These perceptions seem to conflict with the vibe of ABC's story covering Trumps remarks last week about helping out with the NK conflict. Maybe if they asked South Korean President Moon Jae-in for his thoughts before vomiting their left wing bias TDS rubbish, they might be reporting the news more 'accurately' and bias free. It's a concern. Tax payers pay for the junk that comes out of the ABC. If you follow some of the ABC facebook pages, you really start to wonder WTF these people think they are, to push an agenda that is more left than our population votes.

We won't see this on Media Watch, because, they too exhibit bias.
05:46pm 01/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5778 posts
04:01pm 02/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24063 posts
people don't want to pay for stuff and tax the rich instead, i am stunned!
04:05pm 02/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
608 posts

Seems like more people are left leaning than you think Nmag.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/strong-support-for-free-health-education-and-for-taxing-rich-more-poll-20180502-p4zcsj.html




If you take anything from that article other than people generally don't know what they are talking about then I don't know what to tell you. The level of self-contradiction in those statistics is mind boggling.
04:16pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13751 posts

Seems like more people are left leaning than you think Nmag.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/strong-support-for-free-health-education-and-for-taxing-rich-more-poll-20180502-p4zcsj.html




This comment doesn't follow from nmag's - he said "push an agenda that is more left than our population votes", which doesn't make any claim as to how many people are left-leaning, it only states that the abc push an agenda which is further left than the population votes - which is demonstrably true.

To spell it out simply: if you had 99% of the population voting slightly left of centre for example, nmag's statement could still be true if the abc's general agenda was substantially further left than those voters
04:16pm 02/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3176 posts
, it only states that the abc push an agenda which is further left than the population votes - which is demonstrably true.


Spoken like a Russian bot Jim. If that is your real handle.
06:17pm 02/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24064 posts
Jim's programming has definitely changed lately.
06:41pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
994 posts
07:45pm 02/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13752 posts
каждый по своим потребностям, но от каждого по способностям
11:20am 03/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3177 posts
Soixante-Huitard
12:06pm 03/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3386 posts
I came across this dashboard for 'monitoring Russian influence activity on Twitter': https://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/ which I thought was interesting. This is also a interesting tool: https://botcheck.me/

I also saw somewhere that Twitter had updated their Russian propaganda linked bot count to around 50,000. Facebook had a couple hundred accounts it closed as they were Russian linked.

And the largest Black Lives Matter page on FB was a scam being run by some Australians!? The largest Black Lives Matter page on Facebook was a scam

I'm not sure we can be so sure that internet propaganda scamming isn't having an effect? Perhaps not as great an effect as some allude to I suppose.

Then in other news I was reading this about Macron today, seems like he might just be getting on a positive track! Measuring Macron - Is France’s leader rebooting the economy?

If Macron does well, might it (a new moderate centre party) become a viable model for the UK, Aus and maybe even the US? Hard to imagine in the US but I could see it in the UK (the Lib Dems were kind of that before they got demolished). Not sure about Aus.
12:58am 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3178 posts
I'm not sure we can be so sure that internet propaganda scamming isn't having an effect? Perhaps not as great an effect as some allude to I suppose.


But what is the effect? Seems to me the odds of someone who buys the Russian bot theory being an unthinking tribal moron go way up. Look at the people who use the term in this thread.

If you've seen the actual content and still believe, it removes all doubt. If you look at the ads Russia placed and think it changed someone's vote for either Trump, or Bernie I might add, you are without a shadow of doubt a tribal idiot who receives propaganda in place of newsand are too dumb to know it.

You stand a better than 80% chance of thinking people who watch fox news are idiots while uncritically reading the guardian.
the prosecution rests
07:38am 04/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41080 posts
lols, that blacklivesmatter facey page sounded like it could have been a nice little earner!
09:35am 04/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
995 posts

Dear Mr Minista,

We the peeps charged with the responsibility to provide service do not like transparency or being held to account for the effectiveness of the services we provide. Facts are dangerous boss.

Labor's education spokesman Jihad Dib, former principal of Punchbowl Boys School, is in support of Mr Stokes' call and said the test had put enormous pressure on families.


It is also providing transparency regarding comparative performance regarding our rich cultural diversities. My fellow communist and socialist supporters also oppose this because facts are dangerous.

not useful as it did not take into account any differences between different schools and communities


People who I identity with are getting a raw deal from this transparency. Facts are bad mkay. Also, we found some kids are getting an advantage because their parents give a crap enough to try and make up for the ineffectiveness of the services we provide. Please stop the transparency and the facts.

Labor's education spokesman Jihad Dib, former principal of Punchbowl Boys School, is in support of Mr Stokes' call and said the test had put enormous pressure on families. "Because of the high stakes nature of it, the tutoring industry has absolutely exploded," he said. "I know stories where parents are working two or three jobs just to pay for their kids to get tutoring. "And kids as young as nine are not getting put into weekend sports just so they can go to cram schools or tutoring centres."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-04/demands-for-naplan-to-be-dumped-in-nsw/9725934

https://i.imgur.com/gF411mk.jpg
09:58am 04/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13753 posts
I wish more news outlets were like https://www.theknifemedia.com/
11:34am 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3179 posts
It'd be nicer if the knife didn't have to exist and you could rely on people who call themselves journalists to do what it says on the tin.
12:20pm 04/05/18 Permalink
Jim
UK
13754 posts
hah :(
01:45pm 04/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24065 posts
great site, Jim.
02:34pm 04/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3387 posts
I get your point there Pete, but from what I've seen it has had some real world effect. I came across these the other night which they're linking as precursors to the supposed election meddling.

Hysteria over Jade Helm exercise in Texas was fueled by Russians, former CIA director says

A former director of the CIA and NSA said Wednesday that hysteria in Texas over a 2015 U.S. military training exercise called Jade Helm was fueled by Russians wanting to dominate “the information space,” and that Texas Gov. Greg Abbott's decision to send the Texas State Guard to monitor the operation gave them proof of the power of such misinformation campaigns.

Michael Hayden, speaking on MSNBC’s Morning Joe podcast, chalked up peoples’ fear over Jade Helm 15 to “Russian bots and the American alt-right media [that] convinced many Texans [Jade Helm] was an Obama plan to round up political dissidents.”

Abbott ordered the State Guard to monitor the federal exercise soon after news broke of the operation. Hayden said that move gave Russians the go-ahead to continue — and possibly expand — their efforts to spread fear.


And, A Russian Facebook page organized a protest in Texas. A different Russian page launched the counterprotest.

Last year, two Russian Facebook pages organized dueling rallies in front of the Islamic Da’wah Center of Houston, according to information released by U.S. Sen. Richard Burr, a North Carolina Republican.

Heart of Texas, a Russian-controlled Facebook group that promoted Texas secession, leaned into an image of the state as a land of guns and barbecue and amassed hundreds of thousands of followers. One of their ads on Facebook announced a noon rally on May 21, 2016 to “Stop Islamification of Texas.”

A separate Russian-sponsored group, United Muslims of America, advertised a “Save Islamic Knowledge” rally for the same place and time.
05:22pm 04/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26381 posts
There's two reasons to downplay the influence of Russian operatives on social media. If you're in panicky denial mode because you're slowly realising the talking points you've been frothing about for years are all based on a lie, or you're in on the scam. What I mean by that is that you're happy with the discord they're sowing because if it helps hard-right political figures get into power it can only be a good thing.

edit: imagine for a second it turns out that it isn't the Russian but instead a rogue AI of unknown origin posing as Russian operatives!@@@! That protest and counter-protest is totally something an AI would do.
05:53pm 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3180 posts
Yeah ok but I reiterate my question what is the effect?

Russia pouring fuel on a pre-existing dumpster fire doesn't seem to me to say much of anything of the actual underlying causes of division.

People don't need much help in that department.

Moreover, the example you provide is a perfect example of why the Russian business is overblown and people who tout it fall into one of two categories.

The Russians don't give a toss about Trump or Clinton. They want to hurt America. That's it. That's the whole motive. And there is a hundred year history of form on that. the evidence you provide neatly demonstrates this. The goal is chaos.

Therefore if you really believe it swayed the election you are a useful idiot. The outrage about Hillary being robbed was and is the point.

But let's not kid ourselves that most left-leaning people haven't managed to convince themselves the US has elected literally Hitler and stands on the precipice of a descent into fascism, quite independently of any Russian help.

That's category 1.

Category 2 know what I'm saying is true and are willing to exploit it anyway.

Do you think the Democrats aren't loving every second of Mueller? I'll say it again he is not going to show collusion.

But they'll pour fuel on that all the way to November anyway.

The point is that Russia is at best a distraction from much bigger and deeper problems which are driving the zeitgeist. For example, an interesting question to do with Russia might be: isn't interesting it happened in conjunction with the rise activist clickbait s***rags like vox?

/Edit/ see fpots post viper. I rest my f*****g case. He's so f*****g dumb he doesn't realise Russian bots pump out his talking points too. God damn, I'm good.
06:19pm 04/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39589 posts
08:14pm 04/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26382 posts
In future news, craft beer brewers keep prices the same because only s*** beer decreases in value.
08:40pm 04/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3181 posts
I thought I might give a better example for you Viper. or at least a more concrete one.

This is Michael Moore

http://thehill.com/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_small_article/public/blogs/michaelmoore_0.jpg?itok=N5JHP1Wp

He is a fat, lying, hypocritical propagandist.

Michy hates capitalism. This is Michy's million dollar home.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/NiGCX3RL9Nx7cQYwnlAATgrSEq8=/0x600/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4471725/MM26.0.jpg

Michael Moore was a pioneer of the "the spirit of the book is true" (ie the defence of fire and fury being essentially fact-free) "documentary" making.

This Is Michael Moore out the front of trump tower looking sad and making a banal uniformed point about immigration (but I think we both know he's sad cause they ran out of taco bowls).

https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.11242949.1450452716!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpg

Michael Moore received universal praise for his letter which accompanied that photo. His letter does not engage with a single one of the policy issues that the temporary travel ban was put in place to deal with or how they might better be addressed. It waxes lyrical about the nation of immigrants platitudes that we have all heard from the usual suspects for over a decade now. It refuses to accept there may actually be hard choices in immigration policy and happily calls anyone who disagrees racist.

This is Micheal Moore at a rally organised by Russians.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/02/20/16/4968383B00000578-5413699-image-m-13_1519142788004.jpg

Do you think fpot, vash, phooks, trog or anyone even vaguely left-leaning will ever say this

What I mean by that is that you're happy with the discord they're sowing because if it helps hard-right political figures get into power it can only be a good thing.


about his participation in that rally? Or do you think some sort of Moore discusses real issues apologia would be the outcome? Even more interesting do you think it is an important fact that Russians organised the rally he attended? if so why? My thoughts are Moore is a fat lying hypocritical propagandist who'd be saying his bulls*** to anyone who'll listen regardless of who organised and that is the real problem.

Is it possible (or insert iron clad certainty) that his brand of activism (the don't include facts which hurt your plea [or generally for that matter] to emotion kind) takes a lions share of responsibility for the current political climate? Could it be that 18 long years of calling Republicans inhuman monsters may have just had a little bit more to do with election of someone who doesn't care if you call him racist or sexist than 16 Russians (the grand total Mueller was able to indict after 18 months of investigation) who'll never see the inside of a courtroom? I'm just spit ballin here.
06:04pm 06/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24066 posts
It's because he really cares.
07:57am 07/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26384 posts
One thing I am sure we can all agree on in regards to the Russian collusion thing is that trump seems incredibly resistant to blackmail. Russian intelligence would probably have a tough time getting to such a brilliant man so that's one point for the trump is clean crew I guess!
08:48am 07/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3182 posts
It's because he really cares.


I'd be disappointed too. I hear the taco bowls at Trump Tower really are very good.
12:08pm 07/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
996 posts
When you sell media it's good to introduce as a much controversy as possible. You can have a panel of global experts, and the media will find opposition to the panel and give the minority opinion a disproportionate amount of air time, in the minorities favour. Media love minorities.

"Here we have Mr Tool from outback Australia who says Trump looked at him funny one day through the TV. Mr Tool says..." blah blah 3 paragraphs.
01:52pm 07/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3183 posts
Mueller's crack team of crack prosecutors known for cracking skills have asked for a 6 week adjournment because they claim they failed to serve process on a company correctly who was in court to hear the request for the adjournment.

The point of service is to alert the other side they have to attend court. Nothing says slam dunk prosecution like saying you need 6 weeks to tell the person standing beside you court they need to attend court.
06:23pm 08/05/18 Permalink
funky
Canada
1931 posts
isn't the knife media a sort of front for/allied with that NXIVM cult? I had a quick look at that site and it reminded me of an article i read, after a re-google of things i think this is the article i found when i was randomly reading on NXIVM -https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/05/the-knife-of-aristotle-isnt-just-a-fake-fake-news.html, another i found - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/987715294377533440.html

a quick googling suggests that at least some of the people listed on the knife media's staff page are connected to NXIVM / Keith Raniere - http://ivynevares.com/about/

no idea how credible this guy is (or the other sites, to be honest, but there does seem to be some defined links with screenshots etc), but his website seems dedicated to Raniere/NXIVM and he connects a bunch of the Knife media people to being NXIVM coaches - https://frankreport.com/2016/02/06/media-watchdog-knife-of-aristotle-filled-with-nxivm-coaches/

anyway, the mention of that site pinged my memory so i thought i'd check it out again, interesting that it portrays itself as a site to cut through the slant but also appears to be populated with people with people associated with an indicted sex cult. interesting!
10:56am 09/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
609 posts
11:36am 09/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
997 posts

My review of ABC news today.

At about 9:30 am this morning this headline on http://www.abc.net.au/news/

"Donald Trump may have put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

was

"Donald Trump has put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

So I read it, and the detail was like "If this happens, then this might happen, and if that does happen, this might happen, and if that happen, there is a chance of this other thing happening, which could put the Middle East on a path to disaster"

Even professional journalists suffer TDS, rage with a blurt, and then wind it back as it seems like gross exaggeration, scare mongering and clearly politically biased.

Iran deal: Donald Trump may have put the Middle East on a path to disaster By Middle East Correspondent Matt Brown Updated about an hour ago
Quoted at 6pm.

In better news, written by the obviously communist and socialist Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/08/abc-funding-slashed-by-84m-in-budget-to-help-broadcaster-live-within-their-means

Hooraayyyy! ABC cut by $84m
06:05pm 09/05/18 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14889 posts
We are outraged that the ABC are not being biased and saying we, the Liberal government are the best that Australia has ever seen and that Turnbull does not actually poo. Despicable scum need to be taught a lesson despite the huge amount of positives that ABC has through national home grown comedy, music and arts schemes and the amount of equal ground journalism conducted on a say in day out basis.

But also here Foxtel have $30M last year because we know you love rimming us hard.
11:13pm 11/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7853 posts
^ Agree with everything except for the non bias journalism. I watch the Drum most nights and the bias is sickening.
08:21am 12/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
998 posts
JJJ staff work hard at filling as much air time as possible with articles centred on the concerns of left wing voters. Did you miss the "Move the date" campaign for the JJJ Top 100? My understanding is they justified it by "polling their listeners".
03:34pm 12/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5779 posts
Reality has a left wing bias
03:48pm 12/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3184 posts
Reality has a left wing bias


Jesus that is one of the dumbest quotes of all time.

The ABC's coverage of pulling out of the Iran deal has been a joke. There has been no analysis at all of the major faults with the deal (a big one being it doesn't stop them getting nukes it just slows them down). They just talk about how the US is isolated now. That's a laugh.

You watch the Euro's change their tune when their companies start getting hit with sanctions.

The idea that Trump could have put the middle east a path to war is pretty funny by pulling out of the deal. As contrasted with what exactly? that stuff going on in Syria seems a bit like a war.
04:32pm 12/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39590 posts
^ Agree with everything except for the non bias journalism. I watch the Drum most nights and the bias is sickening.
what do you think their bias is towards?
08:10pm 13/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
999 posts

They are clearly biased to the left.

This weeks assessment:

ABC has been particularly a-political in the last few days. Good work ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-14/naplan-tests-are-valuable-and-cis-report-backs-testing/9757552

Their article today, regarding this report, appears to conflict with some of the rubbish ABC has been giving air to. Rubbish that would agree with public sector education union... the teachers who don't like transparency and facts.


10:45am 14/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9599 posts
Biased? Or is that just the way same grounding ends up being?
02:32pm 14/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26390 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.
06:41am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3185 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.


Lol that's like totes definitely what happened and fpot is definitely not providing an anti-insight. Must have been while Israel was treating people like chattel in their concentration camps trying to raise satan with child sacrifices and re-introducing jim crow on brown people.

I heard also that they give Palestinians aids by clawing out their eyes and getting aids infected zombies to piss in the empty sockets. That was article 5 of the skyes picot accord which fpot definitely knows exists and its role in the middle east.

Lol, I'm politically engaged like fpot.
06:53am 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26391 posts
And like, the President of the United States hasn't even mentioned it even though he's partly responsible. Instead he's whining about fake news and congratulating Israel on their big day. Welcome to 2018 mother f*****s. And unless that wretched waste of life above me there is apologising for being such an obtuse little d*** and begging forgiveness for how he could be so f*****g stupid, there's an army of people, some real some not, willing to defend him no matter what he does or what he says. He is a god who can do no wrong.
07:19am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3186 posts
I know right. I'm so politically informed I know moving an embassy is the "cause" the people innocenly throwing Molotov c***tails and launching rockets at Israeli civilians and soliders for five weeks. That's a valid use of the word "cause" for totes reals. Hamas didn't cause anything by threating to tear down a border fence and kill everyone. It was Trump. I've noticed a strange rash around my a****** recently. Probs Trump caused it in a tots fash move.

I'm so good at spotting fascists I know that the fascists definitely Arent the Hamas acolytes literally flying Nazi flags. It's definitely the person who won his election (and definitely not to the group violently disposing of the PA in Gaza openly committed to the genocide of all jews, and who are unable to provide drinking water but mysteriously always have money for rockets to launch at Jews.)

Look at how good I am at political. Way better than you chattel jim crow owning sons of b****** who lack any self awareness.

I'm like totes informed. I read it in the guardian and vox. Then I saw a Russian bot disagree with me only further proving my knowing of the politics is perfect.

Haha post limit increased. Still worth it. Fpot gets sad when you point out his vacuous non-opinions are vacuous non-opinions. To the person who limited me. Feel free to step through why I should be post limited for pointing out saying Trump is responsible for "murdered" Palestinians is a profoundly stupid thing to say. It's is a sad excuse for thought and respresents the nub of the current political climate, my tone echos his for that reason. It should be stridently paid out. You're welcome.
07:56am 15/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24068 posts
that was woke af
10:21am 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3187 posts
Turns out talking to fpot like he talks to everyone else is one of fpots buttons.
11:46am 15/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9600 posts
lol Israeli security forces murdered dozens of people and the stance of the totally not fascist US government is that it was the murdered people's fault.


I know, right. I should totally be able to start a riot on the border with modified flags bearing the swastika, and fly kites over the line of soldiers to drop explosives on to them, and expect to not get shot. It's completely unreasonable for explosives to be retaliated to with bullets.
02:00pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3188 posts
Careful Raven.

You've clearly been listening to Russian bots to express such an opinion.
02:57pm 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26393 posts
I know, right. I should totally be able to start a riot on the border with modified flags bearing the swastika, and fly kites over the line of soldiers to drop explosives on to them, and expect to not get shot. It's completely unreasonable for explosives to be retaliated to with bullets.
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.
04:13pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3189 posts
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.


Wow.

There will be no context around that baldfaced stupidity.

Don't expect to see the number of protesters in attendance or how many people were shot, as opposed to injured by exposure to tear gas any of that.

The picture quite deliberately being painted and diametrically opposed to reality is Isreali soliders went on a cold blooded killing spree.

Oh and it's trumps fault that they did.
04:22pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5780 posts
I wonder how many of those 1400 injured were using explosives.

edit: is it 2700 now? :/
04:49pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
41084 posts
good to see Tone now wants Australia to move its embassy to the big J.
06:29pm 15/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26394 posts
He knows his audience.
06:58pm 15/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7854 posts
guys guys! what would happen if Hamas stopped being terrorist karnts and a publically elected government allowed the Palestinians to accept the two state solution?
07:00pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3190 posts
Turnbull is laying the blame on Hamas.

Julie Bishop and bill shorten have said Isreal has an unequivocal right to defend itself.

I'm sure they were informed by the alt right as well. Or Russian bots.

It's almost like fpot is wrong. Again.


Slaps. Nothing would happen because Isreal us the root of all evil according to someone who like really hates Nazis
07:08pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5781 posts
guys guys! what would happen if Hamas stopped being terrorist karnts and a publically elected government allowed the Palestinians to accept the two state solution?


What if the people of Palestine don't want that, and would prefer to have some of their land back?

Im sure we've all seen this.

https://i.imgur.com/bJyIuam.jpg
08:09pm 15/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3191 posts
Vash will be able to tell you who made that map and the significance of 1949 and 1968.

He'll be able to tell you when he says they want "their" land back who governed the entire area on that map prior to 1948.

He'll be able to tell you who rejected the deal for Jerusalem to be an internationally governed city state.

He'll be able to say who keeps rejecting peace deals. He'll be able to tell you all this from his own extensive knowledge of the history of the conflict.

He isn't posting BDS propaganda memes because the were posted on a socialist alliance Facebook feed.
08:36pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1000 posts
Pull everyone out of the middle east. Give Israel the option to form a new place in USA somewhere. They can take their wall and even a mountain if necessary. It can be done.

Some will move, some will stay. Then let the region sort itself out. I'd stand well back while this happens. Puts some bets on centre bet and watch it play out.

Make sure most the worlds journalists go over there to get close to the action for the best footage of the mass carnage that will eventually lead to world peace.

The USA economy might not cope without enough war though.
09:02pm 15/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5782 posts
Give Israel the option to form a new place in USA somewhere.


lol
07:24am 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3192 posts
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers, otherwise I'd be running the risk of supporting the literal slaughter of dozens and the indiscriminate wounding of thousands of people.


Hamas now claiming at least 10 of those killed were members of their interior ministry. link

If I was to claim the IDF was murdering people at Trumps behest I'd want to be sure what was obviously a terrorist run riot at a border with an express goal of causing innocent casualties wasn't that. Otherwise I'd run the risk of obscenely grandstanding on the dead to virtue signal about Trump.

So dear admins. Now that fpot is indisputably factually wrong and baselessly accusing people of the most repulsive crimes and has demonstrated he is willing to stand on the bodies of those killed to take a factually wrong swipe at Trump I look forward to a similar post limit being implemented on him and mine being lifted.
07:27am 16/05/18 Permalink
funky
Canada
1932 posts
Interestingly NMag, that was sort of a proposal in the 40's - Slattery Report - Jewish European Refugees to Alaska

last edited by funky at 09:15:15 16/May/18
09:14am 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9601 posts
I mean we could probably do the same and give them a nice chunk of land in the Northern Territory if we really wanted - problem is, they don't want to, both sides are f*****g bats*** crazy and see it as some kind of religious right to be specifically there, so they'll never go for it.
12:53pm 16/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26396 posts
01:01pm 16/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
610 posts
With all this talk of historical land rights, I think it pertinent to demand the return of Istanbul to the Glorious Holy Roman Empire. #MakeIstanbulConstantinopleAgain
02:13pm 16/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26397 posts
Nice strawman.
02:20pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9602 posts
With all this talk of historical land rights, I think it pertinent to demand the return of Istanbul to the Glorious Holy Roman Empire. #MakeIstanbulConstantinopleAgain


Pft, what about Mauritania, Gaul, even Britania? Hadrian drew a line in the sand and the Northen brits invaded while the empire needed protecting.
03:52pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1001 posts
I think the Palestinians are rightly pissed off, and that out mainstream media tends to try and pull our heart strings for Israel. On this topic I'd say ABC and SBS are probably more objective with their reporting. Through our education system, mainstream media, documentaries, the entertainment industry, american movies, Hollywood.. we tend to get a flavour. It's almost as if the Jewish world has a great deal of influence over how these things are communicated. Some might regard it as "information warfare".

I recommend finding opposing views to mainstream and consider them. Watch a video of religion spreading and changing in Europe. It's like someone dumped the Jews right in the middle of the Muslim heartland, like trying to treat a continually expanding and contracting problem. They can both make religious claims about the land, but if we just agreed that there is no magical intervening being then the case of moving the Jews out is easy. Then they can claim they were there thousandths of year ago.. well stiff s***. I probbaly had decedents thousands of years ago in Europe and I'm not claiming that land under the banner of Atheism.
06:50pm 16/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9603 posts
If they agreed there was no magical intervening being would they still be Jews? Hell, would there still be a need to move them out since there's no being for the other side to claim insists they be driven in to the ocean?
07:03pm 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3193 posts
It's like someone dumped the Jews right in the middle of the Muslim heartland, like trying to treat a continually expanding and contracting problem.


Its nothing like that at all.

They can both make religious claims about the land, but if we just agreed that there is no magical intervening being then the case of moving the Jews out is easy.


No it isn't.

Then they can claim they were there thousandths of year ago.. well stiff s***


They don't claim that. They claim they have been there for thousands of years and they have. Jeruselum has had a continuous Jewish population for at least the last 5000 years. they've been in Jerusalem for nearly double the time Italians have been in Rome. the region more broadly probably more like 10,000 years. Not they were there and came back. They have been there the whole time. they have as strong a claim to the land as any people have to any land anywhere.
08:05pm 16/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7855 posts
My prophet is George Carlin.



08:08pm 16/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3194 posts
Here little dose of reality from the 2014 war in Gaza.

When Hamas’s leaders surveyed their assets before this summer’s round of fighting, they knew that among those assets was the international press. The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)


There is simply no question Hamas routinely use human shields and attack civilian populations. It is their MO and has been from the start.

The idea the media biased in favour of Israel is nothing short of delusional. the AP didn't report Hamas rockets being fired beside their office while condemning Israel for falsely claiming they were responding to Hamas firing from civilian populated areas.

The idea that Hamas (or their supporters) are underdogs held down by an oppressor and they want a reasonable solution is also nothing short of delusional.

This coverage is the source of comments like this
If I were to use this argument I'd want to be pretty certain that the 58 killed and 2700 wounded were all a serious threat to elite soldiers,


Which is so dumb it's close to anti-thought.
10:15pm 16/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
611 posts


What if the people of Palestine don't want that, and would prefer to have some of their land back?

Im sure we've all seen this.

https://i.imgur.com/bJyIuam.jpg
http://www.winnipegjewishreview.com/userFiles/images/img2_3866.jpg

See how pretty maps are meaningless when you fail to understand history and its context?
09:05am 17/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1002 posts
I think we are seeing exaggeration from both sides of the argument. I believe most of this statement:

The Land of Israel has come under the sway of various empires and has been home to a variety of ethnicities, but was predominantly Jewish from roughly 1,000 years before the Common Era (BCE) until the 3rd century of the Common Era (CE).[1] The adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire in the 4th century led to a Greco-Roman Christian majority which lasted until the 7th century when the area was conquered by the Arab Muslim Empires. It gradually became predominantly Moslem until the Crusades between 1096 and 1291, when it was the focal point of conflict between Christianity and Islam. From the 13th century it was mainly Moslem with Arabic as the dominant language and was first part of the Syrian province of the Mamluk Sultanate and then part of the Ottoman Empire until the British conquest in 1917. A Jewish national movement, Zionism, emerged in the late-19th century (partially in response to growing anti-Semitism) and Aliyah (Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel) increased. After World War I, Ottoman territories in the Levant came under British and French control and the League of Nations granted the British a Mandate to rule Palestine which was to be turned into a Jewish National Home. A rival Arab nationalism also claimed rights over the former Ottoman territories and sought to prevent Jewish migration into Palestine, leading to growing Arab–Jewish tensions. Israeli independence in 1948 was marked by massive migration of Jews from Europe, a Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries to Israel, and of Arabs from Israel, followed by the Arab–Israeli conflict.[2] About 43% of the world's Jews live in Israel today, the largest Jewish community in the world.[


1000 BC - 300 AD predominately Jewish. That's ancient history. In our modern history, like in the last 100 years the Jews flocked there after Israel being formed.

Watch the video of religion pulsing and shifting around Europe, and tell me again how dumb I am for stating it's like Israel was set up right in the middle of Muslim heart land. We haven't even got to oil yet, we still just on religion. Israel is an aggressive strategic outpost for the West.

https://youtu.be/AvFl6UBZLv4
09:54am 17/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3195 posts
Nmag there is a difference between predominantly Jewish, and a Jewish community being present, there are a few people in the bible before david. Jews have been a minority where ever they are for the vast majority of recorded history.

Archaeological evidence of Hebrew speaking people goes back at least 10000 in the areas in and around Israel. There has been a Jewish presence in Jersuleum since its founding in 3000 BCE. we are now in 2018 AD. You can run the numbers yourself.

Muslims had not controlled the land around Israel and Palestine for nearly 30 years prior to the formation of Israel. Local Muslims hadn't controlled the land for like 400 year before that, the Ottomans ruled it out of modern Turkey. The reason for Israel to exist is that Jews have been living there continuously for thousands of years, and the ottomans track record on the Jews was utterly wretched. even during mandate Palestine ethnic violence between jews and muslims/arabs was common. It is just not true that a bunch of jews were dumped on a bunch of unsuspecting Muslims in their "heartland" in a European "here you deal with it" scenario.

As for a wave of immigration after the formation of Israel, whats your point? The claim to the land doesn't stand or fall with that. But even if it was a point, remind me again why the Jews wanted to leave Europe after WW2. You managed to overlook all the Arab countries expelling jews as well. Where were they supposed to go?
12:31pm 17/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26399 posts
Today, in another totally not fascist move by the democratically elected US government, the President of the United States appointed Gina Haspel as CIA director. Gina Haspel is famous for torturing people to death and then destroying the evidence (but but but her destroyed torture tapes!).

People on twitter, some real some not, are saying it's a great decision. We need people in important places capable of being able to make the big decisions, like forcing food up someone's ass when they refuse to eat. It's for national security and I was just following orders.
01:21pm 18/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3196 posts
Oh I was confused. See when you celebrated North Korea pulling out of talks I thought you must like torture. Cause they do a s***load of it. I mean some people might think cheering a regime like that to score the most banal of points would make squealing like a stuck pig now abit hypocritical.

Some might also think the zero times you've ever mentioned extra judicial killing by drone strike authorised by the CIA under Obama might also makes this sudden concern about torture a bit hypocritical.

That's not the moral high ground you're standing on chum.
02:18pm 18/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1003 posts
in the last 100 years the Jews flocked there after Israel being formed


It's valid. You may have missed the video of the pulsing Muslim heartland with Israel plonked in the middle of it.
11:12pm 18/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7856 posts
Equality of ....

08:28am 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26400 posts
I've seen this Jordan Peterson pop up on certain twitters. Seems to be the darling of insufferable red pilled virgins from what I can see.

And another school shooting in the US. Some white guy. Probably some incel angry because a girl said no to him. Probably a big fan of trump. Business as usual.
12:34pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7857 posts
^ completely wrong

His whole point is he encourages free speech based on facts. Not this red/blue pill, right vs left identity politics bulls***.

He has been adopted by some right wing nutter utube channels but if you have a broad look at his other comments he doesn't identify with any real group and uses facts based on research to form his independent views.

He rips this b**** a new one when she tries to pigeon hole him.





last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 13:20:52 19/May/18
01:12pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26401 posts
Sure it is.
01:16pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7858 posts
More pigeonhole ripping

01:23pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26402 posts
I don't think anyone watches your dumb videos mate.
01:30pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7859 posts
^ Really, come on mate
01:34pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26403 posts
If you go to the effort of typing a brief description in the most non-bias terms possible people might. No description no click is a policy I hold and I'm sure others do too.

I just saw your edit on the first dumb video. It's obvious you get very excited when a b**** gets told what's what. Completely normal behaviour you seem very well adjusted.
01:37pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Vash
5783 posts
That second video doesn't seem like he ripped into her at all. Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life. He basically comes down to, life is hard, dont worry about the wordly problems and just work on cleaning your room.
03:12pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3197 posts
^ Really, come on mate
.

Did you honestly expect any different.


I just saw your edit on the first dumb video. It's obvious you get very excited when a b**** gets told what's what. Completely normal behaviour you seem very well adjusted.


Look at how long it took to default to "you don't agree with me therefore you are a bigot".

Is there some compelling reason fpot doesn't get consistently banned and nuked?

This is as deep as he ever goes.
04:29pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7860 posts
fpot is the forum PC Principal. I'm glad he's here to put me in my place... I was getting out of control.

Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life.


Interesting opinion Vash, I didn't get that impression at all.
04:45pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1004 posts
fpot is easily triggered. He has nightmares about Donald Trump coming to the Gold Coast to get him whens he's sleep.

It could be attributed to confirmation bias and an inability to recognise that a lot of journalists and the entertainment industry who deliver his Trump-hate-news-feeds have more reason to hate on Trump than fpot does. It sells papers, and journalists and the entertainment industry can earn credibility and money easily by going with the Trump hate angle on a naive market that want more trump hate articles.
06:09pm 19/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26404 posts
The irony of being deemed 'triggered' by a ponce so fragile that he's up to his third, fourth, fifth, tenth account is not lost on me. Brave enough to say who you really are yet or are you still building up to it?
06:30pm 19/05/18 Permalink
Jim
13755 posts
That second video doesn't seem like he ripped into her at all. Peterson seems to promote a way of thinking that if you're not successful academically then you're a failure at life. He basically comes down to, life is hard, dont worry about the wordly problems and just work on cleaning your room.


Sure, if the only thing you bothered to read or view about Jordan Peterson were disingenuous or ignorant hit pieces. Jordan Peterson has plenty of flaws but what leftists claim they are, usually aint one of them.



And those types of videos are usually ridiculous because instead of showing context and allowing the nuances of an issue to be shown to the viewer, they show short snips that probably just somehow gratified the bias of the video creator. They are generally anti-intellectual wastes of time, probably even clickbait for youtube views in a lot of cases.
07:13pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3198 posts
fpot is the forum PC Principal. I'm glad he's here to put me in my place... I was getting out of control.


Aren't we all. If there is one thing I've taken from your posts it's how much you obviously hate women. I take it mostly from the aggressive typeset you use.

I just know deep down you prefer Helvetica and that means you are a nazi Russian bot who hates women.
08:24pm 19/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7861 posts
Yes thank skydaddy for fpot!

He looked deep into my soul and diagnosed my mental deficiency. I'm now in therapy. I'll keep the forum posted with my progress!
09:27pm 19/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3199 posts
Yes you'll need three hail metoos, and four vivalaresistances.

You must wear a pussy hat for the next week to appease the vengeful and knowing fpot.
09:13am 20/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26405 posts
Three posts and you're still talking about it. Sensitive much? I'm sorry for bringing it up mate I won't shame you for enjoying your b****** getting told videos anymore.
12:26pm 20/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3200 posts
Yeah slaps do you feel ashamed for failing to walk the highroad like fpot.

This fpot being mature.

All it is is fpot can flail around like an utter retard and if you object to his banal thoughtless insults you're immature.
01:46pm 20/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26406 posts
I have a honest question for parents on here - if you lived in the USA what would your thoughts be about the situation and what would your approach be if your kid went to an at risk school? I honestly don't know what I'd do, but I know what I'd think. I'd feel completely checkmated by it. While the NRA exists nothing will get done. If the gun problem isn't solved by this school shooting or maybe the next one in a couple of months then it proves (if it hasn't been already) that this is an insurmountable problem. I point out Parkland in particular because it was the first one where the victims were able to muster a voice and actually break through a little. Seemed new to me and for a second there I thought it might work. I feel this most recent (at time of typing) shooting is going to be spun in a way that makes their approach seem ineffective so MORE GUNS ARE NEEDED. The only thing to do is convert schools into fortresses and if you can find a better example of once hypothesized dystopia becoming real-life dystopia then be on the lookout for replicants.
08:46pm 20/05/18 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7862 posts
I've given up on 'Merica with regards to guns. Guns are just so ingrained into their culture that I reckon there could be a massacre once a month and the NRA and gun nuts still would not give one millimetre of ground to rational Gun Control laws.

And then there is the issue of actually implementing gun control in a country of 350 million people and 270 million firearms.
10:25pm 20/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3201 posts
and the NRA and gun nuts still would not give one millimetre of ground to rational Gun Control laws.


A starting position might be to recognise "gun nuts" are exercising a constitutionally enshrined right.

Another position to adopt might be to specifically say what "common sense gun control" looks like.

Yet another position might be recognise that the kids calling Marco Rubio a murderer who accepts Blood money makes for tv fpot can flick that bean to but is fundamentally dishonest and flatout counter productive.

After that town Hall and the utterly cynical "March for our lives" the NRA registered a surge in membership and polling for gun control started to swing toward the NRA position.

To make this point crystal clear. Fpot's thought that having school kids scream like, well children, at elected representatives would be effective was obviously retarded. It's demonstrably pushed changes to gun laws further away.

But I note he hasn't changed his attitude or approach. You might draw some uncharitable conclusions from that.
08:05am 21/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
612 posts
If anti-gun zealots ever used some statistically backed arguments instead of a fanatical commitment to virtue signalling they might be considered. It has nothing to do with whether or not a 2nd Amendment organisation exists. Start by answering the question of gun crime in Chicago.
12:26pm 21/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39592 posts
If anti-gun zealots
rhetoric to try to frame everyone that is anti-gun as a wild crazy haired hippy "zealot"
ever used some statistically backed arguments
attempt to use "science" to defend point while simultaneous not making one AND adding no evidence or data of their own
instead of a fanatical commitment to virtue signalling
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling", a phrase which you can attach to literally anything and of course is always negative, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to use the term objectively without virtue signalling of your own
they might be considered
you have to pretend and hand-wave pretty hard to ignore the vast volumes of insightful thought that has been published on this topic in the last few decades that carefully addresses all of these criteria and still have not been considered
It has nothing to do with whether or not a 2nd Amendment organisation exists
attempt to disregard one of the most interesting issues in the gun debate
Start by answering the question of gun crime in Chicago.
please ignore the massive problem of school shooting caused by easy access to guns and instead solve this other huge problem which is in no small way affected by easy access to guns

master class trolling
01:01pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9605 posts
what would your approach be if your kid went to an at risk school?


What is considered an 'at risk' school? *Any* school?
01:43pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26407 posts
I thought about omitting the at risk part but I left it in because I assumed there'd be at least some schools in the USA that could be considered safe and that some parents might not actually need to worry about their kids being murdered on a daily basis.
01:50pm 21/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3202 posts
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling", a phrase which you can attach to literally anything and of course is always negative, despite the fact that it's almost impossible to use the term objectively without virtue signalling of your own


Virtue Signalling is the act of public displays of loyalty to a given political point of view, with the goal of "signalling" your conformance with given groups political mores, rather than a good faith argument about complex moral issues. For example this in response to the slavish demonising the NRA.
attempt to disregard one of the most interesting issues in the gun debate


What is the most interesting part of the NRA's involvement exactly? the fact they are a useful shorthand for assigning blame for a complex problem? That is interesting, but I doubt it's what he meant.

attempt to use "science" to defend point while simultaneous not making one AND adding no evidence or data of their own
not engago in three two one

If trog engages at all, the response is going to include something like "it left a bad taste in my mouth arguing when there are dead kids", in a genuflection which definitely isn't this:

you have to pretend and hand-wave pretty hard to ignore the vast volumes of insightful thought that has been published on this topic in the last few decades that carefully addresses all of these criteria and still have not been considered


For example, it's going to be amazing when the fact the shooter in Texas wasn't legally able to buy the gun he used gets addressed. Which is definitely going to happen instead of a few posts of variations on won't someone think of the children.

instead solve this other huge problem which is in no small way affected by easy access to guns

There is definitely going to be some reflection about Chicago implementing gun control and how effective it was.

*edit*
03:48pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26408 posts
attempt to re-frame the context of stopping school children getting shot as "virtue signalling"
It's pretty much a classic endgame argument for toxic bad faith arguers. Once every argument of theirs has been debunked, once every apologist road has been worn to the point it can no longer be walked they revert to the you're just pretending to care argument. It's at that point they break, because once that argument has been used there's no going back and they have to either admit they were wrong about something (which for them is impossible) or doggedly stick to it even though it's obviously not true. It's how trainwrecks of humanity are born.
04:20pm 21/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3203 posts
Once every argument of theirs has been debunked


Heh

not engago in three two one


See its when the "debunking" step gets routinely skipped, the odds of virtue signalling start increasing.
05:18pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1005 posts
fpot, the Americans have got serious issues. I think far worse than us. The gun issue is just an indication of what a messed up nation they are. Their pride demonstrated in their eagles, flags and general nationalism around their branding is evidence of how deluded and proud they are. They are very proud of their crap nation, and generally don't like outsiders providing guidance on how they might do things better. Many of them struggle with the concept that their nation is not as good as they try to brainwash themselves to believe.

Firearms
African american racial issues
Indigenous Indian issues
Sharing a border with Mexico
Their obsession with "Made in USA"
They like to do manufacturing, however are a little less accommodating of the shift to a global market where we buy "Made in China" more and more.
Obesity
Crime in general
Being involved in so many wars
Evangelism
Massive cars

I'm sure you could list some 'green' issues they have, and most likely comment on how they got into a situation where their President would be either be Sanders, another Clinton, or Donald Trump.

The place is bewildering.

To use a quote from an American tourist visiting overseas "Oh yeah the countries overseas were great, but so many immigrants"

So many of their issues come from refusing to realise they are more messed up than they think. Delusion.
06:13pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9606 posts
It's so incredibly true. Many examples of it you can see without even having to go over there: Just look at any online forum. Reddit is a great example - anyone who tells an American that the way they do things has other better ways of being done gets downvoted to oblivion, on nearly any topic.

When you actually go there, it's a f*****g bizarre place. I can barely think of a time I've felt unsafe walking around anywhere in Melbourne late at night. Yet in the majority of cities I've visited in the US, it's very much a case of needing to be really cautious of everyone you come across.

Their obsession with nationalism is cult-like; their brainwashing with religion worse. As a foreigner you go to a hockey or basketball match and you suddenly wonder what the f*** you got in to, when it comes to the way they treat the national anthem and war vets. The latter is utterly insane in the way it comes up - you'd think they were gladiators of ancient times, with the way they're made out to be worshiped.

Don't get me started on cars and transport. The entitlement. Holy f***. The mere idea that anyone needs something of the ridiculous size and destructive power of an F250 for everyday use - why!? Oh right, because "freedom".
08:19pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24069 posts
risk management means taking reasonable steps to mitigate the risk. given the guns are going nowhere I would expect my child to be protected at the places she is in care.

I am very curious to hear a proposed gun control solution. the shooter used a shotgun and a revolver. no assault weapons involved.

America is born out of guns, guns are protected by the second amendment. controls such as backgrounds checks and licensing already exist. unless an amendment to the constitution occurs, nothing in the regulatory sphere will change this.

mass shootings are an american phenomenon due to their culture, not due to the guns. My personal view is the US is on the cutting edge of many late 20th/21st century issues: breakdown of the family, social media/fame/narcissism bug , internet's contribution to removal of real person interactions, have it now - inability to delay gratification, medication of society. There are so many "American" issues all converging on a young populace not yet equipped to handle the stress they are capable of causing.

Sapiens are used to leading a very slow existence which until the last 100 years was the case. Our latest technologies compound this anxious pressure exponentially. America is the epicentre of them. And guns like amplifiers on a sound stage make the small vibrations a millions times more powerful. The shootings are a symptom of a very sick national culture. Remember: black on black is the number one gun homicide category.

School shootings are a distinct phenomenon. The shooters want to exert power, they want to be famous, they feel powerless, isolated, rejected. Grab a gun and teach all the haters a lesson. I found Sandy Hook the saddest, what type of monster would you have to be to do that in a primary school. America is culturally and economically sinking.
08:49pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9607 posts
I am very curious to hear a proposed gun control solution. the shooter used a shotgun and a revolver. no assault weapons involved.


Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.

Who's going to want to sell a gun to someone they can't be 100% certain isn't going to use it for a legal purpose? It doesn't violate any 2nd amendment rights as you still have the right to own one - it's just someone needs to be willing to provide the firearm to begin with.
09:35pm 21/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39594 posts
great post infi, I agree pretty much completely
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.
there are a zillion guns already out there, what would be the point?
09:54pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26410 posts
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold. 
I really like this idea. Not saying it's problem free and ready to be implemented but it's good.
09:56pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24070 posts
Sure: Make gun sellers responsible for the actions and uses of any gun sold.


Guess we make car dealers (or even second hand car sellers) responsible for DUI killers too.
10:00pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26411 posts
You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.
10:04pm 21/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24071 posts
You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.


how so? if we are blaming the tools....
10:13pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26412 posts
There's some fundamental differences between guns and cars you have forgotten to consider.
10:46pm 21/05/18 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3388 posts
I get your points in the previous comments, Pete. I'm not sure I agree the 'it was already an issue the Russians are just adding to it' point negates the fact that these actions have been taken and they have had an effect, which is what you seemed to be refuting? I think the information wars topic is quite an interesting one and a real challenge for our future. State propaganda or political extremes aside, it can have real impact to society as a whole, no? Take the anti-vaxxer movement for example. I totes agree the election tampering outrage is hypocritical (and sensationalised), even existing issues aside, the US have been doing this s*** to everyone else for decades.

I agree with this:

My personal view is the US is on the cutting edge of many late 20th/21st century issues: breakdown of the family, social media/fame/narcissism bug , internet's contribution to removal of real person interactions, have it now - inability to delay gratification, medication of society. There are so many "American" issues all converging on a young populace not yet equipped to handle the stress they are capable of causing.


I think it goes deeper too, I think their blend of individualism & capitalism contributes to a lot of these, and other, socioeconomic issues. Like their incarceration rates & prison problems, healthcare, non-existent work benefits, deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty, etc.

I mean, there's plenty of other developed Western countries sitting on the same 20th/21st century nexus, but they don't seem to have quite as many deep-seeded issues as the US. Most of those countries seem to have more socialistic principles built into their societies than America does.

Also agree with this:

Their obsession with nationalism is cult-like; their brainwashing with religion worse.


I think their militarism has actually gotten pretty extreme when you think about it. Gotta support the troops! No matter what.

I don't know what I'd do re: fpots question. What could you do? Are there any safe schools? I feel like if you have enough money then you don't have any problems in America, but you need a lot of money. Sandyhook absolutely blew me away. America really is a very bizarre place, I've taken it off my 'places I'd live' list.
10:47pm 21/05/18 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
26413 posts

https://imgur.com/dCVaboF.jpghttps://imgur.com/6OiWH3E.jpg

Completely normal. Same may describe it as slightly erratic. Now I wonder, I've noticed trump fans seem to be the calm rational types who think things through carefully. After reading this, do you think the next time they see a brown skinned person with a tattoo that they'll think hello fellow human being or dem's one of those animals mah president was talking about?

edit: and just in case like me you at first thought someone was taking the piss because surely he wouldn't double down like that - https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/need-know-violent-animals-ms-13/
03:59am 22/05/18 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9608 posts
there are a zillion guns already out there, what would be the point?

Your response is pretty much a perfect example of why things will never improve: "Oh, but that only helps the situation from getting worse, it doesn't solve it. We'll only take a solution that will solve it completely, with no flaws at all".
07:47am 22/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39595 posts
I don't think that idea stops it getting worse, I think it actively makes it /worse/, by setting a precedent where someone that is more or less totally detached from the problem and has almost no power to stop things happening is suddenly at the apex of responsibility.

I have a whole huge post I wrote for the other gun thread when this thing last happened 16 nanoseconds ago but it's on my other PC. It's mostly a collection of reasons why I think things will never improve, now that I think about it, but it does have some ideas.
08:14am 22/05/18 Permalink
dazedandconfused
Sydney, New South Wales
613 posts
I would argue the point trog but you like to hand out 10 hour post limits on people you disagree with. If you have a great way of making a point, waiting 10 hours while the argument has moved about 16 miles from where you left it, and then re-injecting yourself whilst somehow keeping the original context I'm all ears.

Meanwhile fpot makes posts like this

You had to go and spoil your good post with a really s*** dumbism. Damn.


and proceeds with impunity because he happens to follow the same fantasy ideology you do. What a sad sheltered little lefty bubble you live in. My theory is relatively confirmed that its not that lefties are bad people, its just that they don't have the intellectual courage or capacity to a) see why censorship is wrong and b) are too afraid to engage with people who disagree because they secretly know they haven't actually looked it up.
09:04am 22/05/18 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
24072 posts
I have a whole huge post I wrote for the other gun thread when this thing last happened 16 nanoseconds ago but it's on my other PC.


Get OneDrive ffs
09:50am 22/05/18 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39596 posts
Get OneDrive ffs
yeh I have no idea why it's not in my Dropbox. I think it's because I write a lot of sensitive work stuff & don't like cloud-ifying it without encrypting it first so I default to keeping things locally.
01:08pm 22/05/18 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
3204 posts
I get your points in the previous comments, Pete. I'm not sure I agree the 'it was already an issue the Russians are just adding to it' point negates the fact that these actions have been taken and they have had an effect, which is what you seemed to be refuting? I think the information wars topic is quite an interesting one and a real challenge for our future. State propaganda or political extremes aside, it can have real impact to society as a whole, no? Take the anti-vaxxer movement for example. I totes agree the election tampering outrage is hypocritical (and sensationalised), even existing issues p0aside, the US have been doing this s*** to everyone else for decades.


I am not disputing the Russian tried to do s***. I am disputing there was any effect worth discussing. I don't think there was for three reasons.

1 social media may have huge reach but it consistently polls terribly as a reliable news source (see pew attitudes in media series). There is no reason or at least very limited reason to suspect there is a broad effect in the information wars. to the contrary, the evidence suggests most people don't take social media seriously for political issues.

2 every example I've been shown has an alternative explanation grounded in garden-variety polarisation.

3 what would a solution that didn't trample legitimate expression look like.

Taken together there is a limited reason to accept there is an effect, much less an adequate description of what the effect is. The 3rd one is important. Really really important. Because all the social media companies run “trust and safety” policies that are f*****g useless. If we were to run off an start looking for Russian witches to censor, I'd want the evidence to pretty damn compelling. If the evidence was a mixed bag, I'd start looking more closely at the people asking for censorship.

I have no doubt Russia tried. I seriously doubt they had much success.

on a side point, I'm not sure the anti-vaxxer movement really does the work you want it to. They are a noisy but tiny minority. A quick google tells me Australian vaccination rates are generally in the 90% area and have been for ages. You can find communities with lower rates, but generally, nobody is listening to anti-vaxxers.

I might add there is an interesting meta point there with antivaxxers. Social media distorts perceptions in strange ways. Seemingly large numbers can get involved in stuff very quickly, but the numbers while they sound large can actually be pretty small when placed in their true context.

For example you might find a page on Facebook which has even hundreds of thousands of followers. Which sounds like a big number. And in some contexts it is. In the Facebook context it is close to immeasurably small.

I remember listening to a Ricky Gervais bit recently talking about how easy it is to get 100,000 signatures on a petition, and that being important because when a petition gets that many signatures it has to go before parliament.

He praises this as a positive development. But I'm less certain. My view is that if the 100,000 signatures have not come from UK residents I don't see a valid reason to chew up parliaments time with it.

My point is that pre social media 100,000 signatures was a significant number of signatures. Now it isn't and the bar for what should be considered significant should adjusted accordingly. More broadly the way in which we judge significance on hot button issues floating around social media needs to reflect this context properly.
10:05pm 22/05/18 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
1006 posts
09:30pm 23/05/18 Permalink
system
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09:30pm 23/05/18 Permalink
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