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Vash
4808 posts
Of course not. Because they're reversing the freeze?
Could it be just that they did it temporarily for some savings, before it affected GPs from being able to cover the cost?

The LNP dismantling goes far beyond a temporary rebate freeze.
06:45pm 06/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1991 posts
They temporarily introduced a freeze which went beyond an election they were almost certainly going to lose?

The LNP dismantling goes far beyond a temporary rebate freeze.


so is there some reason you chose to focus on a freeze introduced by labor?

certainly the money jordies is talking about is centred on the savings from the freeze.

So why is freeze introduced by labor the centre piece of an argument for liberal privatisation?

That makes, literally, no sense.
06:46pm 06/07/16 Permalink
Vash
4809 posts
Hmm let's see.. 8 months rebate freeze vs 4 years.. I wonder which is worse? Along with all the other cuts to Medicare?

Really clasping at straws there PP.
06:52pm 06/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1992 posts
So 4 years of rebate freeze == privatising medicare?

But 8 months, over which you'll definitely lose government is....

yeah straws is what im clasping at.
07:07pm 06/07/16 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
14840 posts
Wasn't it a short term fix while they tried to move Medicare rebate off the CPI? Labor places it on eight months freeze, coalition belittled them about that freeze yet when in power they change it to four years instead and also try to introduce GP co-payments.

Seems like Liberals are looking far worse for Medicare than Labor was.
08:08pm 06/07/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
20990 posts
So then because there is some truth to tinkering with medicare, an outright lie becomes a legitimate campaign technique?

Surely you can see where this is going?


I know exactly where you are going, i was just making the connection as to how a blatant scare campaign like that could have been so successful

Updated numbers:

ALP: 71
Coalition: 74
Greens: 1
Katter: 1
Xenophon: 1
Indie: 2
Undecided: 0

Looks like we might have a minority government, malcolm is going to love this
08:11pm 06/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1993 posts
Wasn't it a short term fix while they tried to move Medicare rebate off the CPI? Labor places it on eight months freeze, coalition belittled them about that freeze yet when in power they change it to four years instead and also try to introduce GP co-payments.

Seems like Liberals are looking far worse for Medicare than Labor was.


I'm sorry but the claim isn't that you can reasonably freeze the medicare rebate. It's that freezing the medicare rebate represents privatising medicare.

The policy was introduced by labor. Merely continued by liberal.

If the argument is that freezing the rebate is the same as privatising medicare then privatising medicare is labor's policy.
08:17pm 06/07/16 Permalink
Vash
4810 posts
09:16pm 06/07/16 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4992 posts
The AMA disagree Vash.

Jordies can muster all the undergrad rage he wants. He is still factually wrong.

f*** me enough with the giving corporations s*** is evil routine.

I would be utterly unsurprised to find out jordies have an incorporated production company which will benefit from the first round of tax cuts. The big four banks *will not get a tax cut under turnbull until after 2020*. Sort of shoots a big. Fatal. Game over hole in the f*****g argument.


Yeah because nothing the libs say is ever subject to change
06:06am 07/07/16 Permalink
taggs
6446 posts
Yeah because nothing the libs politicians say is ever subject to change
08:07am 07/07/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16456 posts
Its f*****g obvious that the Coalition has Medicare near the top of its list of reforms (ie, saving money).

Abbot's co-payments. Extending the index freeze. The 'back end payment processing privatisation' idea they floated a while back. What else does Medicare DO other than back end payments to doctors?! Its literally the system's job description...

It f*****g s**** me that health is the front line for our Government's budget repair measures. Get f***ed. Cutting Universal Health Care should be the LAST (THE ABSOLUTE F*****G LAST) resort.

"hey dudes we need to fix budget yo"
"OK, lets make the sick people pay more lolol"

What the actual f***? Get f***ed. I honestly can't think of a more poorly-targetted approach to fixing the structural issues on the budget.

I used to be a swinging voter but the 'no changes to medicare' followed by LOTS OF ATTEMPTED F*****G CHANGES has cost them my vote for a decade or so. Lying f***wits.

(Im out of this thread again Ive had my spray)
12:21pm 07/07/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9248 posts
They don't care. They're people who can afford alternative health care provisions - private and the like, and are in generally healthy enough (as a result of wealth) to have a lower reliance on healthcare.

To them, public healthcare is seen as an unnecessary expense, in addition to not benefiting them.
12:29pm 07/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1994 posts
What else does Medicare DO other than back end payments to doctors?! Its literally the system's job description...


I'd have thought the job was to fund medical assistance. It doesn't follow the means by which those fund are delivered must also be government owned. Doctors surgeries tend to be private businesses after all.

I expect its a bit like myki or go cards in Brisbane.
02:35pm 07/07/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2112 posts
Thank heavens Tony Abbott is not Prime Minister nor Joe Hockey Treasurer. If anything it was always going to be a plus no matter what else happened.
05:23pm 07/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12247 posts
KAtters joined the Malcolm Turnbull Party
But he wont support them if they crack down on Unions

THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE DD

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/32018286.jpg




06:43pm 07/07/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7452 posts
Arguing to gift tens-of-billions of dollars of taxpayer money to foreign owners/shareholders, in the belief that it would magically lead to a slew of new investment and jobs, was never going to resonate with the Australian people, who care about everyday issues that affect them directly.
08:04pm 07/07/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23263 posts
i agree with that assessment slaps
08:52pm 07/07/16 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10615 posts
The 2 parties are more closely aligned on most topics of substance than they are to any other party. In fact libs and labor are closer, than libs and nats.
If they worked together to have a bi partisan approach on the key issues. We might get some stability.

Our system is stupid.
09:13pm 07/07/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1883 posts
The 2 party system is stupid in the lower house. So is the senate. Why does every state get 12 senators?

A hung parliament will be great for policy, it means they can't just pass any crazy legislation they want.

Heaps of other western democracies don't have a 2 party system.
09:19am 08/07/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9249 posts
The easiest solution I'd like to see is to limit the number of candidates any party can nominate for election - it could be to 50%, maybe 33%. That is, you can only have candidates affiliated to your party run for election in X% of states. Some of the might not even get elected.

The result would be for parties to align along issues, rather than completely outright always supporting each other, and give voters the ability to know that a party can run on a platform radically different so as to not need two parties very similar to each other on the majority of issues.

Frankly, the senate should be independents only. Let parties do all the group work and investigation to write initial laws. They pass it, then pass it to the senate, where 76 independent individuals would check over what's been passed up to them.

The current system where the same party gets to approve their own laws would be like having a separate team of police reporting to the same boss act as judges after arresting people.
09:47am 08/07/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23264 posts
The senate rarely ever sees the government hold a majority. Howard had to negotiate both the GST and the sale of Telstra.
09:52am 08/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12248 posts
I wonder why Katter supports the CFMEU ?

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2016/07/kattercfmeuturnbull-coalition-government-if-there-is-any-hint-of-union-bashing-all-bets-are-off-.html?asset_id=6a0177444b0c2e970d01bb091c1253970d

No Union bashing - not as long as the money keeps flowing to the Katter Party.
What a phoney





12:08pm 08/07/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1884 posts
Katter is an agrarian socialist. Why would you expect him to bash unions facey?
12:17pm 08/07/16 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1534 posts
OFFICALLY ... Liberals forms in... Labor defeated.
04:32pm 10/07/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23268 posts
hey facey, you and I both predicted Coalition loss of 10 seats. 13 is pretty close!
08:40pm 10/07/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7453 posts
ha ha sucked-in greens
09:21pm 10/07/16 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4009 posts
sLaps_Forehead you seem like some kind of token vote mule lackey or slack jaw, hard to tell without pics

it's like cheering for a winning team just because they're having a win, haha sucked in looooooooooser! sucked in Greens! sucked in Labour because Liberal sucked iiiiinnnnnnn



politics is for losers anyway though, so it's no great irony


10:21pm 10/07/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7454 posts

holy s*** trillion, you seem really offended by my immature "sucked in greens" post.

r u are a greens fanboi?
11:32pm 10/07/16 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4010 posts
if it means i don't have to pay tax? then sure
09:18am 11/07/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23269 posts
I cant see a leadership change any time soon because the small L liberals would be too proud to go back to Abbott. It would be an admission if their error in judgement.

Malcolm repulses me. Hiding in his waterfront mansion on election night till 11.30pm. What a creep.
12:34pm 14/07/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2116 posts
too proud to go back to Abbott. It would be an admission if their error in judgement.
WTF??? are you insane. Removing Abbott was an error in judgement? Wow! The bulk of the country wanted Abbott gone. He was an absolute crazy in Office.
01:27pm 14/07/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9256 posts
WTF??? are you insane. Removing Abbott was an error in judgement? Wow! The bulk of the country wanted Abbott gone. He was an absolute crazy in Office.


Unfortunately you should see how popular he is within his own electorate. There are crazy people out there, some of them in high concentrations.
01:44pm 14/07/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2117 posts
Unfortunately you should see how popular he is within his own electorate. There are crazy people out there, some of them in high concentrations.
Apparently.
03:32pm 14/07/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25454 posts
Malcolm repulses me. Hiding in his waterfront mansion on election night till 11.30pm. What a creep.
Remember that time you said a dumb racist thing on here and spent months and hundreds of words trying to make believe that it didn't actually happen? My point is you're a complete coward yourself, and it's really funny watching you accuse people of being cowardly.
03:36pm 14/07/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1886 posts

I am sure not just conservatives would love tone back at the helm but also the nations comedy writers.

Pretty good wrap up here on just how s*** tones was and how deluded conservatives are.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/opinion/peter-van-onselen-tony-abbott-backers-must-face-facts-about-malcolm-turnbulls-leadership/news-story/d7a72e636fa21356bbb785d45c4789de


03:39pm 14/07/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23270 posts
Remember that time you said a dumb racist thing on here and spent months and hundreds of words trying to make believe that it didn't actually happen? My point is you're a complete coward yourself, and it's really funny watching you accuse people of being cowardly.


selective quotation to prove your own crusade doesn't in fact prove anything. hiding in your mansion, while your unpaid party workers commiserate proves a lot.

you recalling dumb statements is a lol and a half.
03:48pm 14/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1997 posts
Unfortunately you should see how popular he is within his own electorate.


Does he enjoy high personal popularity or does he just sit in an ultra safe liberal seat?

That former Australian idol twat polled like 11% in Warringah

Even after two party swing of 3.7% he holds the seat by a margin of 11% or so.

David Feeney held Batman, but I doubt its due to his magnetic personality.
05:06pm 14/07/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9257 posts
What you've said is the very reason I believe party names should not be printed on ballot papers. If a person does not know who a candidate is, even enough to recognise the party they're affiliated to, why are they voting for that person? Australia needs to move away from this toxic methodology of supporting parties not individual representatives.
11:00am 15/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1998 posts
Yeah a parliament of individuals sounds good in theory.

I think it practise it would be very difficult for a leadership vision form under those circumstances.

And as anti-democratic as it sounds I'm fine with the ALA or rise up being crowded out by brand recognition. It follows, I can't be too miffed when the science party or the pirate party or the greens get f***ed by the same system.

the two party system has its obvious flaws. Literally the only value David Feeney provides is party discipline, he is an objectively terrible candidate. Much like Abbott in my view.

But lets not mince words, does anyone really think Glenn Lazarus or Ricky Muir or Jackie Lambie or Pauline Hanson have the requisite legal and economic knowledge to be making country shaping decisions? Ricky Muir bemoaned making hard decisions early in the set. What the f*** did he think he was signing up for?

David Feeney has the redeeming quality he'll do what he is told by Penny Wong et al.

A parliament of individuals will ensure people like Hanson have a louder voice, not just the micro parties you agree with.

TL;DR I agree in principle, but think in practice it would be a fiasco.
11:19am 15/07/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9258 posts
A good well-rounded parliament doesn't require everyone to be a lawyer or economist. This is how we get in to this problem of people who appear to us IT people as being complete idiots when they attempt to make policy around issues they have no understanding of whatsoever.

We need these people in parliament because they represent the normal people they're supposed to be there to support the needs and wants of. If your parliament consists soley of lawyers, economists and accountants, then you have a parliament poorly equipped to deal with all the issues society will face.
11:29am 15/07/16 Permalink
taggs
6449 posts
Funny when you say people look like idiots to you IT types when not two and four posts earlier you were proposing frankly pretty stupid and oversimplified solutions to complex problems that would have significant unintended consequences.

Everyone commenting on and everything to do with politics needs a healthy dose of humility and self-doubt.

But then again you work in IT so are obviously some sort of hyper-rational ubermensch with powers of logic and foresight beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals.
11:39am 15/07/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1999 posts
Yes I understand that, but I didn't say they weren't lawyers and economists therefore they can't be legislators.

I said they didn't have the required legal and economic knowledge to make for good ultimate legal and economic decision makers (which are the primary functions of legislators). I'd agree that multi-disciplinary folks would make for great parliamentarians. But are you really going to sit there and say what we really need in parliament is more jackie lambies?

Parliament's job is writing laws. Seems like a grasp of legal knowledge and concepts is going to come up.

Abolishing the party system would all almost certainly remove experts of any ilk, and see the rise of small minded and small concerned local populists.

I direct your attention to hanson and xenophon doing so well. Or an australian idol host in Warringah.

People don't seem to vote by and large perfectly rationally, largely because on most issues they can't, I know I don't. A brand allows boring experts to get past while being poor campaigners.

Clearly party politics comes with the downside that people who can play the internal game well get ahead.

But there is strong reason to believe that game would be stacked even more in favour of those types in a party-less system.
11:57am 15/07/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2118 posts
Everyone commenting on and everything to do with politics needs a healthy dose of humility and self-doubt.
Totally agree.
04:50pm 15/07/16 Permalink
The Nerfatar
Brisbane, Queensland
9372 posts
I don't think the loudest and most confident people in this thread are IT people.
07:01pm 15/07/16 Permalink
taggs
6450 posts
Don't disagree but I didn't say that either.
07:10pm 15/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12257 posts
Looks like the Global Warming Party is going backwards

As of yesterday counting in the Senate revealed a swing against the Greens of almost one per cent. It stands to lose possibly three Senate spots… Its dream of a lower house crusade was also crushed. They couldn’t even win the seat of Batman from the bumbling Labor frontbencher David Feeney…

Backing Malcolm Turnbull’s Senate voting reforms may come to be seen as a grave error of judgement by the Greens on a par with the Democrats support for GST in 2001 HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

A JWS post-election poll, first revealed two weeks ago in the Daily Telegraph confirmed ... almost a third of all people who admitted voting Greens – which assumes there are a lot more who are too ashamed to admit they did – did so only as a protest against another party.

Since the 2010 election, the Greens have lost more than a third of their Senate vote.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/greens_dying_at_last/

Is about time The ABC stopped treating the Greens as a real Party and stopped giving them airtime to promote their goofy policies like;
Global Warming,
Renewable Energy,
Start the Boats- Refugee policies,
Safe Schools,
Defending Islam,
and Commie Crap from The UN.

I guess the knives will be out for DiNatale.
Who will take over ?
Who cares






07:14pm 15/07/16 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10616 posts
Everyone commenting on and everything to do with politics needs a healthy dose of humility and self-doubt.

Except for you?
11:21pm 16/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12284 posts
uh oh Rudd and Turnbull the Dynamic Duo of Q&A are no longer friends.
Hes prolly not too popular with Bishop now either.

Is there anyone that Turnbull hasnt backstabbed to be PM ?




06:52pm 30/07/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7470 posts
Rudd is bats*** crazy

Malcolm did the UN a favour
06:55pm 30/07/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1889 posts
Global Warming,
Renewable Energy


Yeah f*****g wack jobs those greens are wanting this s*** addressed in government. Those bunch of loonies!
08:08pm 30/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12285 posts
The Greens vote was down 1% swing away

http://i.makeagif.com/media/6-13-2016/effr82.gif



10:35pm 30/07/16 Permalink
Vash
4823 posts


yes please explain why Australian voters are so dumb? Oh yeah, they vote for these kind of people.
11:20pm 30/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12287 posts
Hmmm... I wonder how things are going in the Socialist Utopia of Venezuela ?

A new decree establishing that any employee in Venezuela can be effectively made to work in the country’s fields as a way to fight the current food crisis is unlawful and effectively amounts to forced labour, said Amnesty International… The decree, officially published earlier this week, establishes that people working in public and private companies can be called upon to join state-sponsored organizations specialized in the production of food. They will be made to work in the new companies temporarily for a minimum of 60 days after which their “contracts” will be automatically renewed for an extra 60-day period or they will be allowed to go back to their original jobs.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/07/venezuela-new-regime-effectively-amounts-to-forced-labour/

Just imagine The Greens in charge of the Economy
Nothing that comes out of that freak show benefits this country.
If you want to wreck Australia Vote Greens

I get the feeling The Greens hate Australia.
It makes you wonder the same about those who vote for them.
Senate results will be out Thursday
It will be a bad day for The Greens.





12:26pm 31/07/16 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2327 posts
It will be a worse day for the person who decided to DD.
03:37pm 31/07/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12289 posts
Its so sad when Bro-Love comes to an end.
How prophetic are the final words from Rudd:

12:32pm 01/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12299 posts
Malcolm Turnbull confronts a swollen Senate crossbench of 11 members – three more than the last parliament – after Pauline Hanson’s One Nation Party emerged as the fourth largest upper-house voting bloc. The populist right-wing party snared four seats after preferences were allocated today - comprising two in Queensland, one in Western Australia and one in NSW – followed by the Nick Xenophon Team’s three and independents Jacqui Lambie of Tasmania, Derryn Hinch of Victoria, Family First senator Bob Day of South Australia and Liberal Democrat senator David Leyonhjelm.

The Coalition has secured 30 seats in its own right and therefore needs nine of the 11 crossbenchers to pass any laws opposed by both the ALP and the Greens. The Labor opposition has won 26 seats (up one) and the Greens won nine (down one). They will need three crossbenchers to block legislation, or five to pass its own motions.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hanson_gains_third_seat/

Greens only lost 1 seat Labor up 1
David Leyonhjelm held on too.

So Turnbulls list of accomplishments since becoming PM ?
Making the Senate problem worse.
What else has Turnbull achieved ? seriously ?

Ohhh Mr Magoo... you've done it again

12:45pm 04/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25464 posts
01:57pm 04/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23286 posts
faceman: he won the election!
02:06pm 04/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3029 posts
Didn't Rudd retire from politics? I seem to recall a teary resignation in parliament not too long ago.
06:26pm 04/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38438 posts
Hmmm... I wonder how things are going in the Socialist Utopia of Venezuela ?


https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/07/venezuela-new-regime-effectively-amounts-to-forced-labour/

Just imagine The Greens in charge of the Economy
Nothing that comes out of that freak show benefits this country.
If you want to wreck Australia Vote Greens

I get the feeling The Greens hate Australia.
It makes you wonder the same about those who vote for them.
Senate results will be out Thursday
It will be a bad day for The Greens.
can you really compare third world economic outcomes based on their system of government though? like, is it productive or meaningful in any way? wouldn't it make more sense to look at socialist first world countries where corruption and general s***tiness are not in the same order of magnitude?

I voted Greens because I sincerely believe the best outcome for Australia is to have more than two parties. I don't agree with all their policies (e.g., nuclear) but I agree with most of them. Like most Australians who do various voting tests I scored very high for Greens on policy-base polling.

Your - and everyone elses - whining about the Greens is just the most strawman thing ever. Their presence in politics is, in practical terms, largely insignificant, but when you throw the SOCIALIST! scareword around it sure does make a nice talking point to distract everyone about the complete ineffectiveness and fecklessness of the two major parties!
08:23pm 04/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2015 posts
I don't understand your first paragraph.
09:47pm 04/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23287 posts
there are no socialist first world countries. socialism sends any potentially wealthy countries broke/into poverty.
09:52pm 04/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3030 posts
I suppose it depends on how you define socialism, some of the most successful developed countries in the world are very socialistic in their welfare and financial regulations whilst still having essentially free market economies, e.g. Denmark, Finland, Germany, Canada, New Zealand, even Australia to some extent. Would that be social democracy?

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving collective bargaining arrangements, a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.


I'd say the apparent examples of socialism we have, e.g. Cuba and Venezuela, are perhaps not great examples because their socialist elements were overshadowed by their authoritarian dictatorships and all sorts of related horribleness. A lot of their issues come from that rather than socialism itself.

It seems the key aspect of socialism which has repeatedly failed is the centralised economic planning / control (e.g. no free market), though having said that, there's an interesting argument to be had about China. As whilst they have opened their market, it is still primarily centrally controlled, and was entirely controlled prior to that.

I think I'm for social democracy, or something like it, the good bits of socialism with the good bits of capitalism.
11:02pm 04/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38439 posts
there are no socialist first world countries. socialism sends any potentially wealthy countries broke/into poverty.
there are no capitalist first world countries either though, right? they all have some form of "socialism" about them.
11:40pm 04/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4826 posts

Yeah, the anti socialist lot seem to forget that corruption & totalitarian dictatorships aren't exclusive to socialist economies.
The greens advocate more social programs as seen in many countries in Europe, progressive policy is the way ahead.
Green energy, higher taxes on products that costs society in the long run (cigs,alcohol) , tax polluters.
We should implement basic income (for the inevitable automation age) Scrap all welfare to implement the latter.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/dec/18/incomes-scheme-transforms-lives-poor

Contrary to what sceptics predicted the basic incomes model created more economic activity and work


12:26am 05/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2016 posts
Vash you are a f*****g moron.

Capitalist socieites haven't eliminated all corruption, therefore I can equivicate between that and forced labour camps in Venezuela.

Trog. You can absolutely draw conclusions about socialism from Venezuela. Every Marxist thought it was the best thing since sliced bread three years ago. 1 year ago they were suppressing news of commodity shortages. What happened in Venezuela has all been according to a very well defined playbook of consequences of socialism. Socialism isn't any and all wealth redistribution. Socialism is a philosophy that says that wealth isn't created by allocating capital in the market. I'll highlight the important bit for RE denmark.

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving collective bargaining arrangements, a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.


If you think socialism is so great how about you and term reorganise mammoth media as a workers coop. Until then you are a hypocritical labour rapist.
06:55am 05/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25465 posts
I think the point he was trying to illustrate was that by using Venezuela as some sort of example of what may happen should the Greens achieve any real power is incredibly silly. Yet it's the sort of brain dead fear mongering the slow witted deal in regularly which then spreads to more even slower witted people.
07:43am 05/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23288 posts
I think I'm for social democracy, or something like it, the good bits of socialism with the good bits of capitalism.


Social democracy is not socialism by any means. It is capitalism with a welfare state. Socialism is about how resources are manufactured and allocated. Is it better for the state or the free market to do this?

In Venezuela they have now reached the point where people can be directed into forced labor!

Why is it that every serious attempt at socialiism ends in totalitarianism? Have you ever asked yourself that Vash? The Greens won't write it in the policy manifesto because like a Scientologist if you knew their core beliefs up front it would frighten the s*** out of you. The Greens are university grade socialists. They want to strangle the goose that lays the golden eggs and then keep getting the golden eggs too.
08:06am 05/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2017 posts
Yet it's the sort of brain dead fear mongering the slow witted deal in regularly which then spreads to more even slower witted people.


Well then why do people like to use that exact strawman when referring to all the "benefits" socialism brings.

As I said, any and all wealth redistribution isn't socialism.

Socialism is a very particular philosophy about where wealth is generated and the inherently oppressive nature of capital, (not capitalists or capitalism, all capital is oppressive therefore if you have some you're evil by definition nothing you can do, just evil).

If it is fear mongering to refer to social welfare programs as socialism, equally it is cherry picking to say social welfare is a benefit of socialism. different spins on the same strawman. So seeing as we want to play the rhetorical fallacy game I thought I'd throw in hyperbole for s**** and gigs.

As for the greens. We probably wouldn't end up like Venezula, but I suspect they would be utterly incompetent boobs.

Trog talks about agreeing with their policies, but the policies I read are wiffle. Their Tax paper is ten pages of nothing. Just fashionable puffery about banks are evil and corporations take profits offshore. They close non-descript loop holes to recover unknown lost tax revenue.

It's certainly not a policy with any clear guidance on how to it should be implemented. The benefits of knowing you'll never wield executive power I guess.

Anyway, be the change you want to see in the world trog.

*edit* On a side note it's great to see Rudd out there doing the hard yards to justify Turnbull's decision. How people ever thought he was anything other than a ruthless narcissist really is quite beyond me.
08:26am 05/08/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9277 posts
> I voted Greens because I sincerely believe the best outcome for Australia is to have more than two parties. I don't agree with all their policies (e.g., nuclear) but I agree with most of them. Like most Australians who do various voting tests I scored very high for Greens on policy-base polling.

I too think the best thing for us is to have more than two parties - and would love to see laws introduced to ensure no party may on its own hold a majority. To ensure that issues are swung on a case-by-case basis, not always being Party X is choice 1 through 10, Party Y is choices 20 through 29. We need to have times when there's a swing, where's it's not all the way Party X or Y wants.

Unfortunately I don't see the Greens as being an even remotely viable alternative. We need a better alternative that has strong support in volume.
09:31am 05/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1893 posts
There's a spectre over Ausgamers, the spectre of socialism.

State based socialism is just one type which where it has been implemented is not far off fascism. That's what happens when the state also has a monopoly on violence too.

The state doesn't have to own the means of production, power, etc, communities can.

eg. Social anarchism shares many ideals with libertarians.
10:16am 05/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23289 posts
Aside from a university textbook, please show me where these exist? I would be fascinated to study them...
11:39am 05/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1894 posts
Aside from a university textbook, please show me where these exist? I would be fascinated to study them...


Same place pure capitalism exists and not the protectionist/crony capitalism we have in place today. :P
11:46am 05/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2018 posts
protectionist/crony capitalism


Oh good so you should fine with the tpp then right. I mean protectionism is so bad and all.
11:52am 05/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38440 posts
Well then why do people like to use that exact strawman when referring to all the "benefits" socialism brings.

As I said, any and all wealth redistribution isn't socialism.
I completely agree. The problem is the word socialism has become hopelessly confused thanks to people using it to describe (say) completely normal western style social programmes that they hate because they're captialist extremists. So they use it as a boogeyman to hark back unto the days of THE REDS and emotionally charge it in a black/white context.

I consider myself a capitalist socialist: I believe in a regulated free market where people can strive to make as much money as they want while simultaneously paying lots of tax to provide the best civilisation and society possible for them and their countrymen!

The problem is the rest of us norms then use it casually to describe the success of "socialist" policies (like building roads, public healthcare, NASA, social security etc, for which it is not really an appropriate term.
As for the greens. We probably wouldn't end up like Venezula, but I suspect they would be utterly incompetent boobs.
I would not surprise me at all if this was the case - but as it's the situation we're ALREADY IN I at least think it would be an interesting experiment!
Anyway, be the change you want to see in the world trog.
When I return to Australia I hope to get a little more involved. At the moment I'm still recovering from two years of living in fear in the US - and the perpetual world-destruction that might result from a Trump presidency - and now am dealing with the trainwreck that is the UK politics!
05:24pm 05/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2019 posts
so you don't consider yourself a socialist at all really.

I also think you need a new "T" key on your keyboard.

I would not surprise me at all if this was the case - but as it's the situation we're ALREADY IN I at least think it would be an interesting experiment!


A fascinating experiment for certain. but what if the experiment is a failure?

How many millions of lives are you willing to bet against proven improved living standards? The system as it stands allowed for this conversation in this form. Do you think a change would allow for it? I remain to be convinced.

*edit*The current "situation" allows me to live my life more or less as I see fit. I've no reason to rock the boat.

I suspect you've little reason to as well.

*/edit*
05:35pm 05/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38441 posts
so you don't consider yourself a socialist at all really.
no, but that's kind of my point - when people in western societies these days describe themselves as "socialists", they mean in the Bernie Sanders sense - not in the Venezuela sense.
I also think you need a new "T" key on your keyboard.
I missed this reference..?
A fascinating experiment for certain. but what if the experiment is a failure?

How many millions of lives are you willing to bet against proven improved living standards? The system as it stands allowed for this conversation in this form. Do you think a change would allow for it? I remain to be convinced.
I guess I am not imagine some sort of apocalypse happening if the Greens get in (or even if they just win a few more seats), which is what many people seem to think will happen, I guess because reasons?

I don't imagine Labor or Liberal or their supporters going anywhere; I just see a more moderate government that better represents the views of the electorate - not some Green Fourth Reich that decides to mulch the bodies of all the titans of industry and use it to fertilise their marijuana fields or whatever.

edit: to be clear I just see it as an extension of what happened in the last few years as Greens & independents have had their various impacts on the governmental process - just more so. I don't imagine them getting into power and then having an unrestricted free hand to do whatever they want; that's not how our political system works, right?!
I suspect you've little reason to as well.
and yet, here were are! I'm quite comfortable too (living on the other side of the planet) but I want to rock the living s*** out of the boat! I want to sink the boat and replace it with an electric boat made of hemp and powered by solar!!
06:09pm 05/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3031 posts
What's the general feeling about Trump v Clinton where you are trog? It seems like Clinton's going to win in a majority, but then you never know!
06:23pm 05/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38442 posts
What's the general feeling about Trump v Clinton where you are trog? It seems like Clinton's going to win in a majority, but then you never know!
I'm in London now, not the US. But where I was in the US (Columbus, OH) it was a bit of a liberal bastion in an otherwise fairly red area so it was kind of hard to tell. I know a few Republicans who are horrified by Trump but more horrified by Clinton/Democrats.

As if often said these days, each of the candidates happens to be running against the only candidate they could hope to beat. It's a weird situation.
06:27pm 05/08/16 Permalink
funky
Canada
1900 posts
the prevailing sentiment i can gather about trump vs clinton is that the republicans could have picked pretty much anyone else and beaten her. a different dem candidate (elizabeth warren perhaps?) would be solidly trouncing trump given that most of the problems people are screaming about with clinton revolved around 'lying' 'bengazi' 'emails' 'just gonna be like obama again' etc. again i live in the socialist republic of canada, so it might have a slight slant on it here, but you can imagine the level of media attention being given it here
01:19am 06/08/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2130 posts
Donald Trump = Dumb C!@#
02:08am 06/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12300 posts
Elizabeth Warren or as Trump calls her Pocahontas is a credible candidate but her Native American story is a disaster.

Now Bill leak is being hounded by the Social Justice Warriors who are carpet bombing advertisers who use The Australian.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/aug/05/bill-leaks-indigenous-cartoon-prompts-suncorp-to-cancel-ads-in-the-australian

I guess Suncorp and I are about to part ways.

FREE BILL LEAK

That 18c rubbish has to go, it spreading like a plague upon our Rights and Freedoms. There is no special Human right to not be offended or insulted.
It is Ludicrous.

Cultural Marxism.
02:47am 06/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38443 posts
the prevailing sentiment i can gather about trump vs clinton is that the republicans could have picked pretty much anyone else and beaten her.
well it speaks volumes about the rest of the Republican candidates that Trump was more or less easily able to get the nomination. It was a clown car show from the get go.
Now Bill leak is being hounded by the Social Justice Warriors who are carpet bombing advertisers who use The Australian.
I guess Suncorp and I are about to part ways.
Reading Leak's comments about it, I kind of get where he's coming from. Australians, sadly, seem pretty good (myself included) at turning a blind eye to most of the stuff that happens in those kind of communities. (Comments like this are made non-stop about black populations in the US, fwiw, though maybe not in the newspaper)
03:37am 06/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7472 posts
Trump wont win. The majority of seppo's are not that stupid.
10:26am 06/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2020 posts
I guess I am not imagine some sort of apocalypse happening if the Greens get in (or even if they just win a few more seats), which is what many people seem to think will happen, I guess because reasons?


The greens have demonstrated themselves repeatedly to be unable to compromise on key policy points. Their voting against the carbon tax comes to mind.

That kind of mentality is exceedingly dangerous to have in power.

Anyway, I was more referring the the idea that the current system is a total failure. On any objective measure it clearly provides the best living standards human kind has ever known.

The idea that we should seek change for changes sake has always been a curious one to me. and I don't think you really mean it.

Lets not forget one nation are now a party likely to be able to have their say as well. I doubt you'll sign up for their change just for changes sake.
11:15am 06/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12301 posts
Trump will win for one reason.
In the Primarys Republican turnout was massive, smashed records.
Democrat turnout was an all time low in the majority of Primarys and down a lot everywhere else.

People are prepared to go and vote for Trump because they are sick of it all.
People are not prepared to go out and vote for Clinton because she is an appalling person that has no redeeming qualities, she is perceived as a liar and untrustworthy.

If you think thats shocking wait till the next QLD Election, Hanson is polling at 20% and will decide who is the next Premier.

How about that One Nation guy - he got 78 first preference votes and he made the Senate. So much for Mr Magoos Senate reforms.
Ohhh Mr Magoo, youve done it again.


11:39am 06/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23290 posts
i thought Trump was going to win up until the last week but when he paid that Muslim military family out that was like his Mark Latham handshake moment. I don't know if he can recover from the last week.
12:16pm 06/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7473 posts
06:16pm 06/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38444 posts
That kind of mentality is exceedingly dangerous to have in power.
I mean you keep saying this kind of stuff like it only applies to the Greens, when the track record of the other parties, especially the Liberals (because they've been in power most recently) is littered with failures to compromise (e.g., NBN, almost anything ole "stop the boats" Tony ever said, gay marriage).

The Greens, like all the parties, compromise when it suits their political goals.
Anyway, I was more referring the the idea that the current system is a total failure. On any objective measure it clearly provides the best living standards human kind has ever known.
I don't think it's a total failure, just that the current political climate of A vs B means almost nothing productive can ever get done because everyone is always at loggerheads with each other. Every issue is boiled down to a black-vs-white false dichotomy. This is way more of a problem in the US - there is a growing independents movement but it's pushing against all the money in the world trying to stop them. Seeing it happen more and more in Australia is really depressing.

The idea that we should seek change for changes sake has always been a curious one to me. and I don't think you really mean it.
a) that's not what I'm saying b) yes I do. Of course I do. Who wouldn't?! Change happens regardless of whether or not you want it and if our society does not display adaptability we will fail.

Of course we should be seeking change to make things better. You want to keep living in an Australia where our political elite is sitting on its hands trying to pretend that whether or not gay people can get married is some huge massive conundrum?!#
07:40pm 06/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38445 posts
i thought Trump was going to win up until the last week but when he paid that Muslim military family out that was like his Mark Latham handshake moment. I don't know if he can recover from the last week.
I saw a poll that showed a staggering drop for his ratings but i can't find it now. Be interesting to see if he can bluster his way out
07:43pm 06/08/16 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4067 posts
nope, only by playing it down and hoping it never gets spoken of again could he hope that would blow over like his combover falling the over way across his mellon

i don't know how much more ignorant or obnoxious he could ever get after making a statement like that, it's worse than an awkward handshake gaffe it just goes to show what kind of a liar he would be if he were elected for no other reason than self empowerment, which is by the way what his whole campaign has pretty much been about anyway, not that he isn't self promoting himself with that TV show he had either, he's just a parasitic business bully who happens to have gotten that way by screwing over a lot of naive people, which is also very much what he's doing with his campaign.

he's a ruthless businessman, he shouldn't even be considered as a presidential candidate and if it weren't for his apparent fame and the earlier comments he would make that people liked because they seemed to speak a truth that they felt had been missing from politicians, and i guess having enough money to fund a campaign to gain momentum until he got endorsed by the republican party? he's not a legal professional, he doesn't really have any interest other than getting into power so he can influence things that a guy like that should have no place influencing.

Republicans voters are known for not being the sharpest dummies though, and on mass that only amplifies to be a much louder and worse noise. Imagine if he actually is able to get enough of these people out to vote for him who otherwise wouldn't have, in much the same way that the grass roots campaigners were able to lift the numbers for the Democratic vote for Obama back in '08

that would be the worst case scenario. surely it won't happen
08:44pm 06/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4827 posts
our politicans really do represent us as a society. If people like Hanson & trump hold such views as they do, and are elected, i guess that means there's something seriously wrong with society.
Cognitive dissonance, fact ignorance, fascism & racism. All very casual nowadays, and they justify it by saying "lol too much political correctness nowadays!@^"

We have to fight the rise of fascism before its too late.
12:20am 07/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12304 posts
The Right of the People to Criticize and Ridicule(to bear Trolls) shall not be infringed.

12:56am 07/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2021 posts
You want to keep living in an Australia where our political elite is sitting on its hands trying to pretend that whether or not gay people can get married is some huge massive conundrum?!#


*edit* to be clear I an not making the case for liberal government. I'm making the case against the greens being large enough to wield executive power.*/edit*
Well do you really want to suggest that this is a problem that needs to be addressed lest society as we know fall apart?

I've no problem with it, but as a policy framework your going to have to work a bit harder.

The major parties between the two of them have continued to see economic growth for nearly the longest period on record. Oh and they don't seem to be opposed to gay marriage in principle. The plebiscite is a compromise position. I don't particularly like the compromise, they should just legislate it, but the issue is if you accept government has the ability to legislate it, then they are perfectly within their rights to say no gay marriage. The Libs could have adopted that and probably would have gotten elected anyway.

Things like gay marriage being something people want to have a high faluten argument over is a sign of how well society is travelling not the other way around. I can tell you right now barry from south sudan doesn't give a f***.

Important policy for example like Tax is a vacuum over in greens land.

in an election being fought over tax rates for corporations their policy document didn't articulate one rate, either for the GST the Corporate Tax rate or the PAYG scale.

also would you care to explain how the NBN is a comparable policy failure to voting against the carbon tax?

You've stated you're against the NBN so a compromised cheaper system seems like it should be up your ally.

but lets compare with the carbon tax. Their reasoning was literally that the tax wasn't set high enough so they voted to have nothing at all.

Quite a different situation.

But if the best you can muster is the current major parties have the same faults the greens do why the f*** would I want increased power for a new party with all the same faults?

a) that's not what I'm saying b) yes I do. Of course I do. Who wouldn't?! Change happens regardless of whether or not you want it and if our society does not display adaptability we will fail.


a) Seems like its exactly what your saying because b) how the f*** could you possible mean it if you weren't?

Evolutionary change happens with out political input. There is no particular reason to seek out people with vague ideas on how to change s***. S*** will change vaguely on its own just fine.


i guess that means there's something seriously wrong with society.
Cognitive dissonance, fact ignorance, fascism & racism.


You have raised lack of self awareness to Olympian levels, you really have.
07:57am 07/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23291 posts


You have raised lack of self awareness to Olympian levels, you really have.


Vash as a typical SJW doesn't like people with different opinions having a voice.
08:12am 07/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4828 posts
When those opinions involve the rise of Nazi like mindsets, well, i dont think those are the kind of voices we want in this country.
It's becoming all too common "Throw a nuke on the middle east, thatll sort it out" Or Ban Muslims. These are the kind of people voting for Hanson & Trump.
Fascism needs to stay in the early 1900s.
01:16pm 07/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7474 posts
But isn't sharia law in some countries a type of fascism? Religious fascism?
01:20pm 07/08/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2131 posts
But isn't sharia law in some countries a type of fascism? Religious fascism?
Yes. Luckily it's such a minority among the majority global Islamic population and correct me if I'm wrong zero implementation in any political/legal system in the West.
07:39pm 07/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7475 posts
funny thing is when you read about the dude who invented Islam .. Mohammed. He seemed like a less successful medieval version of Hitler.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 20:38:50 07/Aug/16
08:37pm 07/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3032 posts

Politicians are elected by real people so we really do get what we deserve, they are a reflection of society. Though it seems that varying minority groups have very loud voices, amplified by the media, so the real question is where do the silent majority stand? Probably somewhere in the middle I'd say.

Many have said now that Trump isn't really facist, the comparisons to fascism aren't entirely right I don't think.

Donald Trump is not a fascist. "Fascism" has been an all-purpose insult for many years now, but it has a real definition, and according to scholars of historical fascism, Trump doesn't qualify. Rather, he's a right-wing populist, or perhaps an "apartheid liberal" in the words of Roger Griffin, author of The Nature of Fascism. He doesn't want to overthrow the existing democratic system. He doesn't want to scrap the Constitution. He doesn't romanticize violence itself as a vital cleansing agent of society. He's simply a racist who wants to keep the current system but deny its benefits to groups he's interested in oppressing.


Link: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism

I'm not sure trog or I are arguing for an overthrow of the existing capitalist system (though perhaps Vash is! ;)), or rejecting the good it's done and that it's basically the best system so far. I think we're arguing that there's genuine issues with unbridled capitalism around the 'social good' aspect that need to be resolved through reasonable socialistic regulation. Examples being climate change, poverty, immigration, exploitation, etc.

We're not really seeing those issues being realistically addressed by the labour or liberal parties. Whilst the greens are trying, though sadly lacking in other key areas as Pete says.
08:54pm 07/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12305 posts
Canberra has just passed 18c on steroids:


Thursday's changes to the Discrimination Act also added disability to the list, so it is now illegal to vilify someone because of disability, religion, race, sexuality, gender identity, and HIV/AIDS status. Vilification can include social media posts, actions in a workplace and wearing clothes, signs or flags that would incite hatred, contempt, ridicule or revulsion.


http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-parliament-passes-religious-vilification-laws-20160804-gqlagu.html

Criminalizing Criticism


http://www.bruceonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Free-speech-Orwell-650.jpg

12:42pm 08/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23292 posts
Codifying thought crime.
12:52pm 08/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1895 posts
I like it how you guys are always quoting socialist writers.

If you're done with Orwell, you should start reading Zola.
01:09pm 08/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23293 posts
Orwell does not satisfactorily explain how socialism in his mind can deliver liberty, moreover his books typify the end result of absolute power in the hands of the government.

To that end I have always suspected he held onto socialism as a purist ideology, like Vash does.
01:46pm 08/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38446 posts
I've no problem with it, but as a policy framework your going to have to work a bit harder.
I think you're confused about what I'm saying, or I'm not saying it well. I'm not really interested in debating how good or bad the Greens are or nitpicking their policies.

My hypothesis is simple: I think Australians will be better off with more than two major parties. Who the third is doesn't really matter (well, obviously with some exceptions). I don't want the Greens to be the sole party in power; I want them there to bring Balance To The Force.

If you don't believe that (I can only guess you don't as you appear to be very angry about it for some reason) then that's fine - I don't know if it's true which is why it's just a hypothesis that I'd like to test. But after two years in the US and seeing what real two party politics looks like, I'll be doing what I can to avoid it.

The Greens most closely match the broad wishful thinking I do - if you're just irritated at me because I'm using the Greens as an example I'd be just as happy to replace them with the Sex Party or the Pirate Party or the Grow All The Marijuana Party or whatever you prefer - because by the time they get to the point that they're a big enough force to be at the same level as the current two parties, their policies and processes will have matured, by necessity, to be less radical and smoother around the edges.
Evolutionary change happens with out political input. There is no particular reason to seek out people with vague ideas on how to change s***. S*** will change vaguely on its own just fine.
It is precisely /because/ of evolutionary change that you need to have political change. If your political and legal frameworks are not keeping up with the pace of evolution then they'll (at best) fall apart and become useless and (at worst) actually obstruct citizens and the economy.

There are several examples I can think of where change has happened without political input but the fact that our political systems are dragging behind is causing no end of drama. Gay marriage is one (it's obvious and inevitable that it's going to be a thing but the knuckledraggers are just making this painful for everyone). Uber I think is another - it's obvious that the re-centralisation of certain services has caused havoc amongst service provides (arguably this is a local issue and not a federal one but it's just an example of the political machinery not keeping up with technological change). Healthcare and education are getting better but there is still an odd acceptance at government level for woo that should not be tolerated.
07:30pm 08/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38447 posts
I'm not sure trog or I are arguing for an overthrow of the existing capitalist system (though perhaps Vash is! ;)), or rejecting the good it's done and that it's basically the best system so far. I think we're arguing that there's genuine issues with unbridled capitalism around the 'social good' aspect that need to be resolved through reasonable socialistic regulation. Examples being climate change, poverty, immigration, exploitation, etc.
I most definitely am not. I think capitalism is the worst form of building an economy except for all the other ones that have been tried.

But it's just seems blindingly obvious that the amazing part of Western society isn't the capitalist part - it's the "socialist" part that has allowed people to build these awesome capitalist structures. It's the taxes that paid for the road networks and the communications and power grids. It's the healthcare and the social services. It's clean water that literally comes out of a magic fountain in your house. It's sewage systems that keep cities clean and reduce disease. It's having a reliable financial system that create a solid and regulated base to keep the playing field fair for commerce.

I don't believe in pure capitalism any more than I believe in pure socialism. Neither of them are workable. As with almost anything else in life (except for maths and evidence-backed science of course :) the right answer is moderation.
07:38pm 08/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2022 posts
Well if you don't want to discuss their policies that's really your deal.

However, I would point out that

it's the "socialist" part that has allowed people to build these awesome capitalist structures

Yes and no, and the "socialist" structures were uniformly implemented by Labor, so you're not making a particularly strong case for another party. Seems like there is a party on it.

and secondly, looking at their policies and how they attempt to go about implementing them gives insight in the hypothetical you want me to entertain. And I'm saying to you, they provide solid evidence that a third party would be likely to slow down reform rather than speed it up.

Anyway I'm happy to leave it at that.
08:16pm 08/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12306 posts
The Australian Bureau of Statistics, which delivers the Census, has secretly discussed how to use personal data from the survey to create 'new products'. The bombshell revelation comes after national backlash directed at the Bureau [ABS] over new rules on personal data collection and retention in this year's highly controversial Census, which will be conducted on Tuesday, August 9.

According to The Daily Telegraph confidential ABS documents reveal it wants to link names and addresses to census data for the creation of the 'new products' and that destroying names 'precludes the ability for meeting a business need'. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3728821/Cenus-2016-government-wants-match-names-addresses-sell-new-products.html#ixzz4GkQIC8Oy


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3728821/Cenus-2016-government-wants-match-names-addresses-sell-new-products.html

Thats it, Im out, Im not filling it in.
Lets go to Court.



11:39pm 08/08/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9279 posts
Trump wont win. The majority of seppo's are not that stupid.


Here's the thing that should terrify you more than Trump being president: That there is somewhere in the region of 45-50 *million* Americans who would vote for him.
09:49am 09/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12308 posts
I dont get whats so important about our street number and our name.
Anyone want to explain what societal benefit there is in those two bits of info ?
being done on line makes all that information searchable in seconds.

At some point maybe 12 months from now government will decide to open up the data, it could be very a rewarding database combining it with the equally invasive My Health Record.




06:49pm 09/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25466 posts
The Nauru Files Australia runs concentration camps where we send people declared by the government as undesirable. In these concentration camps they are tortured and sexually abused by the people who are meant to be caring for them. Many members of the Australian public don't care and will actually act as apologists for this behaviour because these people have brown skin. Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton facilitated these conditions but will never face justice, again, because these people have brown skin.

I've been talking about this for years and years now. To be fair I think it is only the hardcore racists on this board who will still turn a blind eye to it, so that's something. I just can't really see how you can give what is going on even a cursory glance and not be outraged about it. Infact unless you are at least slightly outraged by this then you're pretty much a complete c***.
06:50pm 10/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23295 posts
No doubt the government can do a better job in protecting the safety of asylum seekers. Regardless of the irregular arrival status, criminal behaviour is not acceptable. Offenders should be prosecuted and contractors should be terminated.

The offshore processing policy is necessary to deter boat arrivals and the loss of life at sea, as can be seen by the stark reduction in numbers of arrivals since it has been re-introduced.
09:00pm 10/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25467 posts
Concentration camp conditions must be improved! Only then can we find the right torture/appearing not to condone torture balance required to make it a success in stopping some boats for some reason!
09:43pm 10/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3034 posts
Utterly shameful, makes me sad to be an Australian.
01:58am 11/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38452 posts
The offshore processing policy is necessary to deter boat arrivals and the loss of life at sea, as can be seen by the stark reduction in numbers of arrivals since it has been re-introduced.
literally anyone can stop immigration by basically torturing people that arrive on your shores trying to immigrate

is the tiny fraction of illegal immigration that occurs when people actually make it to shore by boat worth it? I'm embarrassed to be Australian as a result of it so I'll say no
04:55am 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2024 posts
Ohhh we can agree trog, we can agree. What fun!
09:33am 11/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1896 posts

Those Nauru files are completely disturbing and Dutton is a f*****g dunce.

Offshore detention is just another privatisation/outsourcing failure in the many that should be essential human services run by a government.

https://theconversation.com/people-have-lost-faith-in-privatisation-and-its-easy-to-see-why-63198


04:01pm 11/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23297 posts

Those Nauru files are completely disturbing and Dutton is a f*****g dunce.

Offshore detention is just another privatisation/outsourcing failure in the many that should be essential human services run by a government.

https://theconversation.com/people-have-lost-faith-in-privatisation-and-its-easy-to-see-why-63198




as a government contractor, i can confidently say, in almost every instance where a privatisation arrangement fails it is due to a lack of GOVERNANCE.

if the government had monitors regularly checking (or even better living at) the detention centre, these things wouldn't happen. lazy owners/ministers will get burnt, internal and external audit processes are essential to success.

government running services is a recipe for inefficiency and even worse neglect. *cough* every state child protection agency *cough*
04:10pm 11/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38453 posts
Ohhh we can agree trog, we can agree. What fun!
THE GREENS WOULD FIX IT!@! (did I ruin it?! :)
05:44pm 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2025 posts
MAYBE!
05:53pm 11/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4830 posts
lol @ infi logic.
Government running services a recipe for inefficiency & neglect. Privitisation of Detention shows signs of inefficiency & neglect, Government's fault.
Please tell us how this is resolved without Government running it?

The only way to have full transparency is with Government running it. And hopefully people have some humanity in them and vote for parties that actually care about what happens to people in Detention.
Unfortunately, far too many right wing people live in Australia and choose to turn a blind eye to the treatment of brown people. Cos f*** off we're full, right? they're all Economic refugees right?
Build the wall, blah blah blah right wingers are idiots.
05:56pm 11/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25469 posts
The only way to have full transparency is with Government running it.
Not this government.
06:44pm 11/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3037 posts

It's amazing what gets up people's grills, isn't it? The census website going down is apparently a national calamity demanding urgent action. But children in Australia's care being assaulted and abused in offshore detention camps? No biggie. Move along.

The vastly divergent reactions to the census fiasco and the Guardian's publication of 2000 incident reports from Nauru are a fascinating study of the politics of this country, which appears to care more about an inconvenient IT bungle than systemic abuse of children and refugees.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/this-country-cares-more-about-a-computer-cockup-than-the-abuse-of-refugees-20160811-gqpxif.html
07:02pm 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2026 posts
That strikes me as a long bow to draw viper.
07:29pm 11/08/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25471 posts
I don't think so. Anyone who has been following these events from the start have known it is dodgy as f***. Credible allegations of sexual assault have been around for ages now. No one really cares.

But this census bungle? It's exploded everywhere. It's all I've seen on the news lately, easily eclipsing the Olympics and the latest from Nauru.

What I find rather telling is how child sexual abuse is a thing universally maligned by pretty much everyone except the perpetrators of it. It seems we can add the LNP and white supremacists to that list.
08:16pm 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2027 posts
Yeah but this

Credible allegations of sexual assault have been around for ages now


Is why drawing an inference of people's concern based on the disparate responses is at least unreliable and probably faulty. The fact that nobody is surprised about *more* evidence, but are shocked that there is a real risk deeply personal information has been stolen doesn't really convey any deeper knowledge of how people are ranking the importance of the events.

One is new the other is old. I think is about as powerful an explanation you can find in it.

Given the author of the piece hasn't written anything else about asylum seeker abuse, I guess, using that logic, I can conclude he doesn't care about the issue. After all child abuse is the worst crime there is, his failure to write on exclusively on the topic, or at least a single other article on the issue, I read as his psychopathic apathy toward it.

Anyway, I've volunteered in the area and studied the law surrounding it in detail. I wasn't particularly shocked by the Guardian revelations and was quite surprised by the census. I guess I must implicitly condone it then.
08:53pm 11/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3038 posts
I had to look up that idiom, thanks Pete!

Yeah, it's subjective, but I do think it's an interesting, if rather anecdotal, temperature read of Australian political culture that I'm inclined to agree with.

I've been inundated with coverage about the census bungle from every media outlet, social media platform, and friends. I've not seen the Nauru Files leak mentioned anywhere much at all. If this had happened in the UK you'd be sure it'd be front page news with public inquiries getting setup immediately.

Why so outraged by a government agency botching an IT project (this is literally one of the most common things ever!), whilst very little outrage for horrendous things done to other humans beings in our name. Is it because they is brown? Or because it's a complex problem with no easy answers? I think it's easier to just not think too much about Nauru and the refugee problem, rather than confront the horrible reality of it. It doesn't help that the LNP have gone to huge, authoritarian-esque efforts, to hide everything to do with the details of operation Sovereign Borders. It's becoming pretty clear why they've done that!

To avoid having to delve back into the left v right debate on immigration. I think it's safe to say it probably would have been possible to execute this detention process solution without the inhumane treatment, torture and abuse! Those last bits really weren't, nor are they, at all necessary. Let alone the fact that it's just morally wrong.
08:56pm 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2028 posts
I guess my circles differ (obviously so I guess).

I have seen the guardian stuff all over my facebook.

public inquiries getting setup immediately.

We did, Gillian Triggs reported on this last year. You can read it here.

If the leaks merely confirm the content of the report, which appears it is the case, I'm not sure its a valid criticism to judge people for not being up in arms for stuff they already knew about.

Dutton is already out about suggesting they cynically self-harm. It's a very well worn script at this stage.

Therefore I don't think the Guardian confirming what a government report already stated failing to spark a fresh round of outrage is a particularly damning outcome.

I mean the census thread is trucking along ok. Are you particularly willing to ascribe the casual racism to everyone posting in that thread rather than this one?
09:21pm 11/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3039 posts
I take your logic point in relation to the article itself (false equivalence and all that), I guess I'm extrapolating it to a wider view and sentiment.

It doesn't seem to me that the previous, and new (guardian) stories about this issue have gotten much traction with the Aus media or public. The fact that Dutton is out doing a 'well-worn' script with no further indignation or action from anyone kind of attests to that. The LNP government has largely ignored the AHRC's, and other institutions, reports about this. They've not changed their policy.

If everyone already knows about it, does that mean they just don't care enough to make it a significant political issue? Why is that? I'm posing the questions as to the reasons for these discrepancies in public attention and demand, not specifically ascribing casual racism to everyone, think you're jumping the gun there a bit.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpirVjNUAAQmojn.jpg:large

Is it really?
09:54pm 11/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2029 posts
The fact that the policy is still in place is certainly puzzling. However before talking about what Australia thinks, it's worth considering that the policy needs a surprisingly low approval rating to make it into law. Turnbull held on to government by the skin of his teeth, and lets not forget how rarely a first term government gets the flick in Australian politics (I think you have to go back to Chifley). I have my doubts Shorten could have prosecuted the policy without significant rumblings from his back bench.

So the facts are the LNP had a primary vote of just under 42%. Of the people who voted LNP I doubt you'd find 80% approval of the policy as it currently stands, particularly in light of the ongoing concerns about institutional child abuse. I would refer you to the NT child prisoner abuse two weeks ago that had a royal commission set up later that day.

The fact that Dutton is out doing a 'well-worn' script with no further indignation or action from anyone kind of attests to that.

The point would follow if Dutton could appeal to some high level of personal approval, but I don't think he can. In fact he gets roundly criticised every time he makes these comments.

The LNP government has largely ignored the AHRC's, and other institutions, reports about this. They've not changed their policy.


Surely that sort of means you should leave your criticism at the LNP's door. Australia's human rights commissioner delivered a scathing assessment of the policy. Last I heard Professor Triggs has the final word on Australia's human rights commitments. The LNP's obscene response to her, did result in a political cost. So when gauging Australia's feelings about the issue, it might be a bit more complex then displaying equal outrage about the issue of the week.

I might point out in addition that the Australian Bar Association and the Law Council of Australia (Australia's peak legal bodies) are ongoing vocal critics of the policy, and the Australian Barrister John Griffin QC acted for the applicants in the PNG manus island constitutional case (ie fought to have the centre found unconstitutional).

If the author wishes to cast churlish aspersions about Australia's collective conscience based on a facile equivocation that is his right. I'll exercise mine to call him a pompous, inconsistent buffoon.

*edit* an addendum regarding calling the census issue "an IT bungle"
The census screwing up isn't just any other IT crash is it? The census is a critical policy planning instrument. It's findings will have wide ranging policy implications for the entire Australian population.

There are serious concerns of data being stolen, in the first year it was made identifiable. That isn't a small deal. But additionally, part of the point is to get as many people to complete the form in as smaller time frame as possible. That's impossible now.

The census being screwed up isn't trivial.

let me make the point another way. Spared of the author's pontifications was Senator Hanson Young. She is the Greens immigration spokeswoman and yet she found time on Tuesday to advertise her civil disobedience. By the author's logic she callously prioritised political grandstanding with the census over the known troubles on Nauru. Or his logic is faulty, could be that too.

Acknowledging the one doesn't entail denying the other.
10:04am 12/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1897 posts
Wilson Security staff pictured with Pauline Hanson at white supremacist rally in 2015.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpnKagoUsAE6yK4.jpg
11:04am 12/08/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2132 posts
^ They all look like meatheads.

I remember going to the shop with a threepence and buying a chocolate Paddle Pop for two pence and paying 2 pence to catch a Tram from Carina to Brisbane Town.

My first car was a 1966 Valiant 225 Slant 6 with 3 on the tree.

When a kid I used to steal WW2 Aeroplane and Tank models from Myers at Coorparoo then come home and build them. I had around 30 planes and 20 tanks with all the infantry for all sides.

In my day people bought tallies not stubbies.

On a Sunday night we'd buy tallies from the pub before closing at 6:00pm and head over to a mates place to either play euchre, 21, 31, ricketty kate or guts.

Our elder brothers were serving in Vietnam.

Many of our fathers, mothers, uncles, aunties, grandfathers and grandmothers fought in WW2 or Korea or both and plenty from WW1 were still alive.
06:30pm 12/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2042 posts

If worker coops were common, that would drastically reduce the amount of people able to get rich off the fruit of other people.


Looking forward to some metal gymnastics about this coop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Goulburn_Co-operative

It's almost like Vash is a dumbf*** ideologue who has his reflection in faceman.
Worker's coops are going to save us from exploitation. Just give control to the workers, exploitation will be a thing of the past. Hurrah 1917. Or maybe not.
07:02pm 16/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4833 posts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_of_Lehman_Brothers

businesses & government fail regardless of the system in use, common sense. Oh no, surely its because its a cooperative, that drove the company to take advantage of farmers.
If you read my post correctly, you would notice i said, reduce, not eradicate. Because it's impossible to eradicate greed, especially when our culture promotes greed.
If anything, Capitalist ideology made this cooperative as corrupt as any other private business.
10:55pm 16/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23311 posts
that's why the competitive world of capitalism is best placed to solve corruption. market failures are invariably caused by corruption and opaque governmment practices, the best protection racket is government sponsored and suppresses the free market. Lehman bros is a great example of this, thanks Vash.

Like they said in the Big Short - not a single person went to jail for the GFC. Where's the moral hazard?
11:29pm 16/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12327 posts
Orwellian developments in London:

The office of London’s first Muslim mayor has secured millions of pounds to fund a police “online hate crime hub” to work in “partnership with social media providers” to criminalise “trolls” who “target… individuals and communities.”

The London mayor’s office for policing and crime (Mopac) will spend £1,730,726 of taxpayer’s money policing speech online after applying for a huge grant from the Home Office Police Innovation Fund (PIF), it was announced in a statement. “The purpose of this programme is to strengthen the police and community response to this growing crime type” is was announced, and will “involv[e] a dedicated police team” backed by “volunteers”.


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/16/london-mayor-to-set-up-police-online-hate-crime-hub-in-partnership-with-social-media-firms/

18c on steroids
These Laws are akin to anti-Blasphemy Laws in uncivillized Cultures.
They dont represent Liberal Democracies.
Rather something more darker.


12:04am 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2044 posts
Oh fun look at it squirm.

corporations are evil, works coops will prevent exploitation.

workers coop is exploitative.

Oh its a capitalist workers coop. need to get me some of them Scottish workers coops, it'll work then.

The ownership structure didn't eradicate, it didn't even reduce Vash. Your argument was that structure will have some fundamental impact on the ability to exploit. Turns out that's false. Because obviously it's false.

You're a dopey little twerp, who spouts s*** he knows nothing about.
08:27am 17/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4834 posts
Infi, you realise they bailed out the banks, and noone was jailed from the mass of corruption that caused the GFC? Another inherent Capitalism flaw. The people with the money run democracy.

Conservatives think greed is inherently human, it actually isn't. We become that way from the environment & culture that has formed from the system we are required to survive in.

Coops operating within a Capitalist economy are susceptible.

http://www.workers.org/2006/us/greedy-0223/
11:05am 17/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23312 posts
Infi, you realise they bailed out the banks, and noone was jailed from the mass of corruption that caused the GFC? Another inherent Capitalism flaw. The people with the money run democracy.


a government controlled racket with no moral hazard. this is what happens when the government gets involved with business. it is criminal that certain enterprises can be bailed out but that is the power of the State and its monopoly control over currency and use of force.

capitalism is about what can i do for my felllow human, because I need to do something in order to receive money/goods from them. it is the philosophy of cooperation and reciprocity.

socialist/welfare states are about "what's in it for me", the sense of entitlement, and there being no requirement for reciprocity because I am going to get it anyway because the government said so, so i don't need you.

we need to eliminate government interference and entitlement, and get back to people acting for the benefit of others (in order to benefit themselves). self-interest is the most powerful interest (as we can see from every socialist government ever created eventually spiralling into corruption), so it is best to harness it in an environment of healthy level competition.

everyone is susceptible, so the best thing to do is keep competition sharp, instead of letting competitors cosy up to government. you think the solution is really instead to let government control the entire market? really?
11:43am 17/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4835 posts
Government is required to ensure the market doesn't become corrupt, which it would naturally do in a Laissez-faire arrangement. The market rejects climate change, it lobbies Government to ensure there are no controls on the market to reduce emissions.
Hence, the LNP & abolition of the carbon tax.

Species dying in a habitat that is proposed for mining, no government control would have the environment harmed even more than it is. Business lobbies Government to ensure they can get approvals despite environmental damage.

So, the only way to ensure Business doesn't have the power to do these sort of things is to reduce the power of money & desire for profit.
Or, we can just keep going as we are and enjoy a couple 100 years of nice consumerism, increasing wealth gaps, environmental destruction. The market proves it's unable to accommodate the increasing need to cut back on consuming & emissions. Because both those things are what fuel the market.
12:15pm 17/08/16 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
2136 posts
Infi dude, you really are a clod.
12:17pm 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2045 posts
Conservatives think greed is inherently human, it actually isn't.


What utter tosh. A scientific basis for solidarity. F*** you people live in a fantasy land.

Putting aside you don't understand what happened in the GFC, Greed is why food shortages happen in Venezuela.

Government's thinking they can boss market prices around is the real problem. Something socialists such as yourself are simply incapable of grasping.

And lets look some more commie science while we're at it.

The market proves it's unable to accommodate the increasing need to cut back on consuming & emissions. Because both those things are what fuel the market.


How? Just saying it doesn't make it so. An introduction of a price on carbon is a market solution to climate change.

Such an a grade dummy.
12:42pm 17/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4836 posts
Yes PP, a market based solution the market rejected.
12:54pm 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2046 posts
No it hasn't, I love how we are now talking about climate change because your theory about workers coops is clearly false.

Pathologically incapable of staying on topic.
01:04pm 17/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12328 posts
Lol the two diametrically opposed Ideologues are together on Global Warming.
So who joined who ?
02:06pm 17/08/16 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18254 posts

The market proves it's unable to accommodate the increasing need to cut back on consuming & emissions. Because both those things are what fuel the market.


The market, a free market, is totally responsive to the demands of the people.

If people want to cut back on consuming and emissions, then the market will respond. If the people don't want to ... then it responds.

Besides... the market is providing such things as the people do want it. The government has retarded up the transition by getting in the way.
The government allows unscrupulous business people to set up artificial market barriers, like Taxi's vs Uber.

It's often due to the involvement of the government that leads to corruption.
02:51pm 17/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38461 posts
The market, a free market, is totally responsive to the demands of the people.
It is in theory, but it sure doesn't work like that in practice (just like extreme communism/socialism). There are various things that get in the way; tragedy of the commons is probably the worst but collusion between businesses is also a problem. (i.e., greed, which I agree is definitely an inherent human trait).

There are things that regulations simply need to exist for and be enforced for. Sometimes the market cannot or will not solve problems that they need to solve. My favourite example of this is the lead-in-petrol debacle; Bill Bryson's book "A Short History of Nearly Everything" covers this story and it is fascinating (the whole book is highly recommended), but basically we all nearly ended up in a world where everyone had epic and constant lead poisoning because of the amazing efforts of a handful of individuals and their corporations to deny evidence in the interests of profits.

The problem with emissions is that it is a massive externality and is not capture by anything in the market. ; I do not believe an introduction on a carbon price is market-driven because the market wasn't the one that introduced it as a cost. I am not convinced carbon trading is a good idea yet but neither am I even remotely certain it's a bad one.

One thing the market IS doing to respond to people's concerns about emissions is introducing emissions-free vehicles; given everyone I talk to about cars (admittedly not many) wants a Tesla I think this strategy is working better.
06:29pm 17/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38462 posts
Orwellian developments in London:
I'd like to hear your comments on the recent decision here in London to imprison Anjem Choudary? Because I feel like your attempts to resolve that cognitive dissonance would be worth watching.
06:30pm 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2047 posts
The problem with emissions is that it is a massive externality and is not capture by anything in the market. ; I do not believe an introduction on a carbon price is market-driven because the market wasn't the one that introduced it as a cost. I am not convinced carbon trading is a good idea yet but neither am I even remotely certain it's a bad one.


Can you explain this further?

An externality by definition sits in a relationship with market price.

An externality is something that is a cost of production but not incorporated in the market price. It seems by definition the market introduced the cost, because the cost is bought about by the market transaction. It just isn't borne by the parties to the transaction. I don't really see how the market didn't introduce the cost, its more a question of who's paying it.

So far as I'm aware the major obstacle to emissions trading has been securing china's involvement. But the good news is they are launching an ETS next year.
06:58pm 17/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38463 posts
An externality by definition sits in a relationship with market price.
This is true but I think it hides the most important part, which (to me) is that in many cases the externality has no /monetary/ relationship whatsoever with the market price. So while what you're saying is completely true (e.g., in the case of gas prices, the externality is carbon emissions and they're clearly in a relationship), it is almost impossible to come up with a price relationship (e.g., there is no practical way to measure the true cost of 1m^3 of carbon emissions).
I don't really see how the market didn't introduce the cost, its more a question of who's paying it.

So far as I'm aware the major obstacle to emissions trading has been securing china's involvement. But the good news is they are launching an ETS next year.
I would argue that one of the entire points of a true "free market economy" is that those costs and who pays them evolves naturally as the market finds a way to make money off it. It's been a zillion years since we had cars and noone has figured out a way to make money buying their emissions.

It's going to take a worldwide effort spearheaded by governments and international agreements to make it happen. The only thing that has actually /introduced/ the cost is this effort - otherwise we would have persisted for years in dumping emissions into the atmosphere like we have done since the first time we burned coal for warmth.

If there was a real, natural market to be had in emissions trading China's involvement wouldn't need to be "secured" - they would have been all over it (and, presumably, perfected it long ago).

This is, incidentally, exactly what happened with something that truly was a free market thing: BitCoin. China is now well-known amongst the BitCoin community (as I understand it) for having a huge amount of miners and traders. In fact I can point you towards several interesting stories written by "free market" BitCoin people whining about Chinese miners taking over the scene and f*****g it up for the rest of them, in the absolute classic sort of way you'd expect from one of those free market people who actually really don't want a free market :)

FWIW: I believe in the "freeish market". I think it should be mostly free with as few regulations as possible to keep an even playing field for everyone. I think there needs to be a constant back-and-forth between the market and the regulators with both sides pushing back at each other to find the best middle ground so the interests of the citizens are respected but there's enough competition to create sound market prices. Regulations need to constantly evolve with technology and social change.

belated edit: I don't think what I'm saying is particularly radical or outlandish. It basically is the situation we have now that has worked pretty successfully to create the bulk of western society. I don't think there's much evidence to support the claim that a "free-er" market is better - OR that a more tightly regulated market is better. As with basically everything it's about moderation.
07:28pm 17/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38465 posts
Speaking of interesting free market thingies - is anyone keeping up with what is going on with milk in Australia? I've seen a few reports about milk processors raising prices which is causing grief to dairy farmers. I know there's weird stuff in this industry but it sounds like dairy farmers are being strongarmed on price somehow but I don't really understand the mechanism (i.e., why can't they just sell to someone else, or refuse to sell at prices that are too low). Are there just too many dairy farmers or what?
09:26pm 17/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23313 posts
they can refuse to sell but then their cows go unmilked and get sick. so they gotta sell the milk, and there is more milk than can be sold.
09:33pm 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2048 posts
I think the broad strokes are the coop I linked to struck a deal with dairy farmers.

It allowed them to retroactively adjust the price they were paying for the year. In essence it shifted the commodity price risk from the coop to the farmers themselves.

Apparently there is a global downturn in dairy prices. So the farmers now have to repay the additional money.

It's a d*** move. We moved to Great Ocean Road milk to help out.

Would you mind linking the bit coin stuff? Sounds interesting.

It's been a zillion years since we had cars and noone has figured out a way to make money buying their emissions.

I think this sort of misses the point of an externality. We've had cotton mills for gillion years and nobody has found a use for the soot in the chimney. It's just a cost of doing business.

The way to make money from emissions is to sell cars that properly reflect their cost of operation.
09:33pm 17/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38466 posts
The way to make money from emissions is to sell cars that properly reflect their cost of operation
yeh but my point is, this is not possible with this type of externality - unlike soot in the chimney, which can be easily priced to get rid of it (s*** you could sell it as fertilizer!) there's no way to reflect the cost of the emissions. (I don't think soot is an externality though - the emissions are, but I'd argue the soot has no outside impact on anyone else.)

If you believe climate scientists (and why wouldn't you!) the true cost of them is, like, infinity. It is spread over the entire world over decades/centuries. This is what happened with the tetraethyllead thing though: vested interests tried very hard to rely on this exact same externality effect to hide the costs of their product. They almost got away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling scientists and their annoying efforts to save the human race.

There was no way to price this externality in. You can't put a price on the cost of ever-so-slightly lead poisoning the entire population of the planet. There /are/ some things that are just fundamentally unsolvable by the market and this is where regulations have to step in.

(I'm actually fkn amazed that a) this only happened ~50 years ago and b) 50 years ago a scientist was able to convince the government that some dumb thing a corporation wanted to do was dangerous for humanity and should be stopped.)

Maybe an emissions trading market will help here; I'm not sure. But it's not a market solution; it's a market-based regulatory solution.

I'll have to dig around for the BitCoin things; several of them were just comments from jaded speculators on Slashdot but they were really interesting. A lot of them were based on this article from one of the BitCoin devs from a few months ago where he highlighted that China was taking control of the network. It only gets a cursory mention but IIRC it was one of the first times this was really brought to the attention of a lot of people so it caused some wailing and gnashing of teeth. (There are technical arguments that this is not a fault of decentralised currencies and a limitation of BitCoin specifically - one that was identified in the first release paper about it.)
10:29pm 17/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2049 posts
I don't think soot is an externality though - the emissions are, but I'd argue the soot has no outside impact on anyone else.


You can find 18th century English legal cases which say different. The common law concept of nuisance is the relevant law.

yeh but my point is, this is not possible with this type of externality


Well one way you might do it, is come to agreement on how many parts per million the atmosphere can safely hold, and then divide that up into a series of permits....

I think we might have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the article I'll take a look.
07:00am 18/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38467 posts
Well one way you might do it, is come to agreement on how many parts per million the atmosphere can safely hold, and then divide that up into a series of permits....
Right but this is regulatory!! It hasn't evolved out of the market because someone has seen it as a potential profit centre. It is being /made/ a profit centre by the massive cooperation of giant regulatory authorities. The corporations are only on board because they're being coerced into it, but in some cases they'll be happy to do it because it /will/ be a profit centre for them.

So I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on unless you think that an emissions market is the free market in action - I am claiming it is not because it is driven by regulators.
07:31pm 18/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23314 posts
Right but this is regulatory!! It hasn't evolved out of the market because someone has seen it as a potential profit centre. It is being /made/ a profit centre by the massive cooperation of giant regulatory authorities. The corporations are only on board because they're being coerced into it, but in some cases they'll be happy to do it because it /will/ be a profit centre for them.

So I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on unless you think that an emissions market is the free market in action - I am claiming it is not because it is driven by regulators.


You can be sure such that such a regulatory regime (like superannuation) will make banks and other parasites very rich.

The market will evolve on its own to reward clean producers. As clean technologies continue to lower production cost they will outstrip non-renewable. People pay more for brand clothes, cars and milk. They will go for brand energy inevitably. Christ look at the hype around hybrid vehicles.

Use of recycled paper in toilet paper and packaging product is a given. Why would they do this?

The challenge is to improve efficiency and affordability.
07:43pm 18/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2050 posts
It's been done largely contractually until now...
08:07pm 18/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38468 posts
You can be sure such that such a regulatory regime (like superannuation) will make banks and other parasites very rich.
Yup. And brokers. This is a big concern I think; all the f*****g middlemen that will find a way to insert them into the process to leech value.

BUT, maybe it doesn't matter, right? If the net result is decreasing carbon emissions by increasing their cost a little bit, then that is the result that they want - a market-driven economy to drive down emissions. What happens internally is almost irrelevant if emissions go down.
08:09pm 18/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2051 posts
Well not really if you feel the market is inherently incapable of responding.

The argument I'm responding to is that the market can't deal with carbon pricing.

I think that is fundamentally false.

I think the largest barrier to that has been a refusal to deal in carbon from the worlds largest economies. ie government has been a big show stopper rather then enabler.

You can buy offsets for plane tickets, but they all dabble in the EUETS. You're not allowed to trade in carbon in China (though this is about to change). While that has been the case large corporate emitters have been unwilling to take on the risk the carbon has been worthless.

But that is changing. So I reject the analysis that it can only be responded to by regulation (at least in the sense of government regulation). You can't blame a market for failing when it isn't allowed to form.

On top of this despite regulatory road blocks the market is responding.

You mentioned Telsa cars. A big selling point of theirs is, they don't need to deal in this market. Musk points it out at every launch.

How is that the market not responding to demand to reduce carbon?
08:17pm 18/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38469 posts
The argument I'm responding to is that the market can't deal with carbon pricing.

I think that is fundamentally false.
OK, well that's not the argument I'm making, so I'm happy to agree with you on that point. The market will be forced through regulation to deal with market pricing; if they can't deal with it they will collapse, so presumably they're working with regulators to make sure that won't happen.
On top of this despite regulatory road blocks the market is responding.
This market exists because it was created by regulation. It's not allowed to form in one corner of the world because of a different type of regulation that apparently is about to change. So I don't see what problem the free market is solving here.
You mentioned Telsa cars. A big selling point of theirs is they don't need to deal in this market. Musk point's it out at every launch.

How is that the market not responding to demand to reduce carbon?
That is the market responding but it's not clear yet by any stretch of the imagine to know if it will solve the problem. If it does it might be in part due to the subsidies being provided to the electric car industry anyway so does that still count as the free market if the hand of the government is on the scales?!@#
08:41pm 18/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2052 posts
Well I suppose we can agree after all.

but not quite.

It's not allowed to form in one corner of the world because of a different type of regulation that apparently is about to change. So I don't see what problem the free market is solving here.


It's not allowed where fully a quarter of overall emissions come from is not a fly in the ointment it's a show stopper.

But about to change.

Telsa cars by themselves aren't going to solve the problem, nor did I suggest they would. The point I was making, which I suppose isn't rebutting you were making but Vash was, is that market is in some sense fundamentally rejecting the idea of dealing in carbon.

Carbon trading does have a proven effect on overall emissions. Pretty much the only things you need to get trading going is and agreed cap and for governments a) to allow trading and b) to enforce trading contracts. Then it becomes a commodity like any other and demand will set the price.

This has been a major sticking point until now, precisely because one (very large) corner of the world refused to be involved.
09:07pm 18/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3045 posts
I take your points on Nauru and the census there Pete, appreciate your thoughts.

I'll stick to my view that Nauru isn't getting the level of public or media attention I think it should be though. It's depressing to see the government's position is to try to discredit the allegations and make vague remarks about investigating.

Thought this episode of QandA was pretty entertaining! http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4499754.htm

I would of thought the carbon / emissions cost has evolved from the market, as it's always been there, it's just existed as a hidden cost previously. Putting costs on it recognises it as a visible cost so that it can be properly accounted for in the market. I'm not sure that equates to being a heavy handed regulatory solution trying to control the market needlessly, it's just making our interpretation of the market more accurate.

Likewise I wouldn't agree that the market has rejected the idea on the basis of a selection of countries not getting on board (or draw parallels there to different markets like bitcoin). I'd say that reluctance was largely influenced by powerful lobbying from vested interests who would see large cost impact from emissions costs being used. For governments where those interested industries contribute significantly to national GDP, that's a legitimate concern. From that view it's regulation or vested interest preventing the market from adopting it, not the market itself.

I mean isn't that along the lines of why Aus repealed it's carbon tax? Lobbying from coal and similar industries? I'm not sure.

China's fossil fuel industry is pretty big, it seems reasonable they couldn't throw it all away or add significant costs very quickly. Although isn't it the case that they're working towards that now? They've signed up to the accords, have rapidly decreasing coal usage, one of the fastest growing renewables sector and are looking at costing emissions now I thought. So China is essentially getting on board.
11:12pm 18/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38471 posts
Now this is some pretty amazing news: the US to phase out the use of for-profit prisons.
05:02am 19/08/16 Permalink
taggs
6451 posts
US privately run prisons are generally pretty bad as they are paid on taking demand risk so they are incentivised to increase numbers. This doesn't happen in UK or Aus.

In the UK there is evidence that privately run prisons outperform the public sector in terms of recidivism, operational cost, public safety, etc.

I haven't seen any equivalent analysis made public in Australia but having experience in the industry I do know that privately run correctional centres (at least in the state I have experience with) do perform very well relative to the public sector on both cost and inmate outcome measures. In fact the public sector is riddled with issues such as poor operational culture, IR issues, obselete management practices and systems, etc.

My understanding is that in the US privately run facilities dont necessarily have particularly good outcomes but not that familiar with the sector over there.

Not sure a simplistic public = good, private = bad is the right approach if the objective is the welfare of inmates and the outcomes to society.
07:23am 19/08/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9289 posts
If you're going to encourage privately run prisons, than a KPI has to be that the rate of re-offending is reduced. Fees should only be paid to prisons - or penalties awarded to prisons - if a person re-offends and ends up charged with an offence after leaving the system. Otherwise there's just an incentive to take on prisoners, and what easier way is there than bring people with a record back in front of a court?
09:35am 19/08/16 Permalink
taggs
6452 posts
Demand risk and KPIs re: recidivism are two separate issues, Raven.

But all recent private correctional facility deals in UK, Aus and NZ (e.g. Ravenhall (Vic), Wiri (NZ), etc) that I am aware of have all included KPIs around recidivism with payments linked to beating state benchmarks.
09:49am 19/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3047 posts
I was well shocked by that announcement, it's great to see though. Sounds like the private prisons in the US are pretty bad, maybe they're only targeted on making a profit or something. It's shown in Oliver's video that they advertise to investors on the basis of having high recidivism!

John Oliver's special on it:

05:29pm 19/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38472 posts
As usual I will bring up Norway whose prisons are the envy of the world! Well at least the prisoners not in Norweigan prisons. Here is a great deep dive. I suspect it's like anything else though; in some places private facilities will beat public and vice versa.
05:33pm 19/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3048 posts
This is what happens when you don't have any socialistic controls on your capitalism! It's f***ed in the US, but in a bunch of the other western countries where they have social policies it's working well.
05:36pm 19/08/16 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10622 posts
If only trog ever had a real job.

Norway is not something the rest of the world can emulate.
It's a western country very much in the 1%.
That has one of the highest taxation rates in the world.

Tax vs GDP .... Australia 25%, Norway? 43%!!!! Nearly double the tax.
Imagine halving your pay and twice the GST... Yeah that's Norway.
07:07pm 20/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1900 posts
If only trog ever had a real job.

Norway is not something the rest of the world can emulate.
It's a western country very much in the 1%.
That has one of the highest taxation rates in the world.

Tax vs GDP .... Australia 25%, Norway? 43%!!!! Nearly double the tax.
Imagine halving your pay and twice the GST... Yeah that's Norway.


Imagine having to pay 8x your household income to buy a place to live, yeah thats australia.
10:25pm 20/08/16 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4091 posts
the amount of tax the Norwegian govt would collect on the natural gas industry there is why, not that their GST is actually double

It would almost be the same as the govt here having a 47% mining tax on the coal mining industry alone in Australia, and don't think they're not trying
09:34am 21/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2053 posts
Probably still useful to look at a successful prison system to see areas we could improve on, short of outright replication obes.

Reckon you'll find house price to income ratios in Norway are comparable to Australia Redhat.
04:55pm 21/08/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40264 posts
Imagine having to pay 8x your household income to buy a place to live, yeah thats australia.


lolz, thats sydney bro

enjoy your walkability!
05:06pm 21/08/16 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5291 posts
Anyone else see this in Brisbane?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/west-end-residents-take-development-opposition-to-the-streets-20160821-gqxkap.html

"Where the developers don't call the shots, but where we as local residents, in conversations with architects and town planners, we make the decisions for the future of that site.


Owner wants to redevelop site they own, have submitted plans and gotten approved by Council with the State Government reviewing the planning and only requesting a bus stop location out front of the site. The regional plan (state government) also identifies this area for increased residential density. BCC Greens Councillor though believes the owner of the land should have no say in how its developed, even after going through all the appropriate approvals...

What really gets me is that this is just off a bus corridor that has a bus every 5-10 minutes and is 1.2km walk from the Brisbane CBD (top of the Mall). This is the ideal area to densify to combat urban sprawl, road congestion and reduce emissions by promoting more green travel. Yet its a greens councillor who is so opposed to the idea of densification.

BTW 150 is less than 2% of the West End population (source: 2011 census) so clearly this is a huge issue to the majority of residents.

Figured Spook would have thoughts on this given he works in the area, as do I.
10:38pm 21/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7481 posts
Horrible digusting, rascist, big titted lady... whoops sorry I'm meant bigoted lady.

12:24am 22/08/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4495 posts
oh yeah fade that West End protest is total bollocks

I'm all for keeping certain character areas like Boundary St itself largely untouched but this is an example of commercial and light industrial property in the area that will come up for renewal, what do they expect, a park?
12:59am 22/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3051 posts
Thought this was a pretty interesting read.

The death of neoliberalism and the crisis in western politics

The effect of the financial crisis was to undermine faith and trust in the competence of the governing elites. It marked the beginnings of a wider political crisis. But the causes of this political crisis, glaringly evident on both sides of the Atlantic, are much deeper than simply the financial crisis and the virtually stillborn recovery of the last decade. They go to the heart of the neoliberal project that dates from the late 70s and the political rise of Reagan and Thatcher, and embraced at its core the idea of a global free market in goods, services and capital.
07:17am 22/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1901 posts
Reckon you'll find house price to income ratios in Norway are comparable to Australia Redhat.

Luckily there's data! http://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/ Norway is not comparable at all.

Thought this was a pretty interesting read.

The death of neoliberalism and the crisis in western politics



Good read, this bit was pretty funny.
Or, as Francis F**uyama writes in a recent excellent essay in Foreign Affairs: “‘Populism’ is the label that political elites attach to policies supported by ordinary citizens that they don’t like.” Populism is a movement against the status quo. It represents the beginnings of something new, though it is generally much clearer about what it is against than what it is for. It can be progressive or reactionary, but more usually both.
07:40am 22/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2054 posts
Luckily there's data! http://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/ Norway is not comparable at all.


You're kidding right?

Here is the graph for income:house price ratio from your source.

http://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/images/pricetoincome.jpg

Unless I'm much mistaken Norway and Australia are literally beside each other. Seems at least a little bit comparable. You might even say virtually identical.

Confusing Austria with Australia certainly is a trap for young players.
08:15am 22/08/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40265 posts
west end is certainly going bunta. thing is they are struggling to fill the units that are there now. would be a great time to rent something in that area now.
09:28am 22/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1902 posts
Confusing Austria with Australia certainly is a trap for young players.


haha! I just looked at the first graph, my bad.

The aussie cities are definitely more disparate. Melbourne and Sydney are up there with hong kong, NYC etc.
09:46am 22/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2056 posts
Well fair enough.

Melbourne and Sydney are certainly expensive to buy.
10:11am 22/08/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1027 posts
PornoPete: That graph shows the relative *change* in house prices compared to incomes in the last 6 years, not the actual costs of housing in those countries relative to income.

So two countries are next to one another on that graph if they didn't change in the last 6 years even if one has a significantly different house price to income ratio than the other country.
10:32am 22/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2057 posts
Good point but if you look at the RBA data, they seem to suggest its comparable as well. So six year growth moving in tandem is probably in keeping with the underlying data.

Here is the RBA report and if you look at the graph Norway has an disposable income to house price ratio of around 3.7 and Australia is about 4. page 19 has the relevant data.

edit the data in that bulletin is old but the ABS seems to think we are still tracking around 4.

If the ratio was comparable in 2010, and growth since then is comparable, it would seem to follow they are still comparable in raw figures.
10:50am 22/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12334 posts
The RSPCA goes Full Misogyny

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/12dc437908715a8265a8bcc304d84e9a?width=650

Julia Gillard Doggy chew toy

“A soft toy of the former prime minister can be fun and empowering for young girls to break through the glass ceiling, but for these to be sold as a chew toy is extremely offensive,” Ms Carey said.

Emily’s List is a financial political support network for Labor women, and Ms Carey said the sale of the dolls as a chew toy sent an inappropriate message to the public.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/julia-gillard-objectified-as-dog-chew-toy-by-rspca-queensland/news-story/4bbf5cc0f8dd67525e5bb850cbd23335

http://31.media.tumblr.com/65cb36c0b2a6caf6cb95d0d9a26f556b/tumblr_n6nfaxuw3N1tddk4lo1_500.gif
12:14pm 22/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1903 posts

PornoPete: That graph shows the relative *change* in house prices compared to incomes in the last 6 years, not the actual costs of housing in those countries relative to income.

So two countries are next to one another on that graph if they didn't change in the last 6 years even if one has a significantly different house price to income ratio than the other country.


Here's more up to date figures from Australia, not sure about Norway.
http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnists/rba-loses-credibility-as-housing-boom-continues-20160821-gqxkyd
02:56pm 22/08/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2058 posts
Those figures are quite different from the ABS for the same period.

I'd be interested to know why.

Either way I think your claim that the ratio between the two countries is incomparable is unfounded and on any figures Australia's ratio isn't 8.
04:43pm 22/08/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7482 posts
DEY TERRK OWER JERBZZZ



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 20:19:38 22/Aug/16
08:18pm 22/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12336 posts
At least The Malcolm Turnbul Liberal Party doesnt Wibble-Wobble
The Malcolm Turnbul Liberal Party doesnt Wibble
The Malcolm Turnbul Liberal Party doesnt Wobble
The Malcolm Turnbul Liberal Party doesnt do much at all

Although its working very hard to prevent Gay Marriage happening because when it comes to Innovation, Marriage is the kind of CHange that Turnbull doesnt believe is happening, thats right, hes a Same-Sex Marriage Denier.

P.S. - The Science of Gay is Settled.

P.P.S - Not that theres anything wrong with that.
12:16am 24/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4837 posts


The politics of deus ex applied to RL. Skip to 23m
12:46am 26/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12339 posts
Finally a post by Vash that I agree with^

Also have to say I agree with The Greens *shocks* *Gasps*
The Gay Marriage Plebiscite is stupid.
Even if 100% of people vote Yes it has no influence on Parliament.
It will still be up to Politicians how they vote.
Politicians vote to get re-elected.

Fact is the Church Groups are better organised and will hammer Conservative Electoral Offices. I have doubts the Plebiscite will pass because even though its fashionably cool to support Gay Marriage most people still do not accept Gay relationships.

They Vote
They pay Taxes
They deserve exactly the same Rights.

02:21pm 26/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23324 posts
That's exactly what the Christian lobby groups are hoping for.

Liberal politicians are too gutless to actually make their own decision on this because they know their voters will harass them.

$180m what a waste.
03:40pm 26/08/16 Permalink
taggs
6453 posts
I reckon the plebiscite would probably get up pretty convincingly.

I think it was probably silly for the libs to back themselves into a corner with it but was probably the only viable compromise internally.

I think human rights shouldn't be subject to the whims of democracy (hence the concept of bills of rights). So on one hand I get where the Greens are coming from. But politics is the art of the possible and if they're confident they'll win I don't see why they don't just compromise and back the plebiscite. It would get the result they want and surely that's the key issue. A cynic mighy suggest that one reason for the ALP/greens to block would be so that they can legislate it when Turnbull loses the next election and claim the credit.

Having said that I think marriage should be a matter of contract law between consenting adults and the government should have no part in it. Seems like that would keep most people happy and we could abolish a bunch of useless legislation.

What a f*****g mess, eh. Wouldn't be surprised if both sides dig in and refuse to compromise managing to piss everyone off except their own hardliners.
04:02pm 26/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38479 posts
That's exactly what the Christian lobby groups are hoping for.

Liberal politicians are too gutless to actually make their own decision on this because they know their voters will harass them.

$180m what a waste.
agree completely, the whole thing seems ludicrous
06:38pm 26/08/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3059 posts
That Deus Ex video is incredible.
01:27am 27/08/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4500 posts
Having said that I think marriage should be a matter of contract law between consenting adults and the government should have no part in it. Seems like that would keep most people happy and we could abolish a bunch of useless legislation.

well yeah, ultimately the reason we're even having this marriage equality debate is that there are laws discriminating against people based upon whether they are married

if marriage were disestablished and restored to a purely ceremonial status, and its legal function replaced with a contract between adults of any gender (or number), then presumably religious and other groups would not have to feel that an objectionable definition of marriage is being "imposed" upon them in any meaningful sense

it might make immigration matters a bit tricky
06:36am 27/08/16 Permalink
Vash
4840 posts
03:17pm 28/08/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1906 posts
http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/


What a strange game, the only way to win is not to pray.
04:37pm 28/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38482 posts
well yeah, ultimately the reason we're even having this marriage equality debate is that there are laws discriminating against people based upon whether they are married

if marriage were disestablished and restored to a purely ceremonial status, and its legal function replaced with a contract between adults of any gender (or number), then presumably religious and other groups would not have to feel that an objectionable definition of marriage is being "imposed" upon them in any meaningful sense
this x100000
it might make immigration matters a bit tricky
Marriage seems like a totally arbitrary way to deal with immigration issues to me.

In the last 2.5 years I've applied for visas in the US and UK. In the US being married would have made my life a billion times easier as I would have been able to latch on to my partner's visa - which only worked if I was married.

In the UK though, all I had to do was provide proof that we'd been in a "real" relationship for (at least) two years. If we'd been married, the process would have been basically the same - maybe a little bit easier but I'm basically on the same kind of visa.

Either way, these days marriage is considered more or less a disposable event, so when they're testing for your immigration eligibility based on relationship status, they're still going to want to verify the marriage is "real", so they might as well just open it to any sort of relationship.

I think the future is going to be limited-term marriage contracts but it depends on there still being some benefit to being married at all, which depends on what government perks they leave on being married. Filing a single tax return or whatever doesn't seem like a big enough deal to me though. What other government-created benefits are there?
07:27pm 28/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23326 posts
Congratulations, my love. I've decided to renew your contract.
07:40pm 28/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38483 posts
Congratulations, my love. I've decided to renew your contract.
Well, presumably you are not opposed to the idea of getting government out of the way when it comes to marriages, right?

In which case - if any formal recognition of the relationship is required at all - it would be a contract between two (or more) consenting adults. In which case the framework to govern these will be standard contract law. In which case the free market will evolve the best workable solution, and given almost every other contract between two parties is limited term, it seems like a fairly obvious end result, assuming we can convince humans to be open and honest about relationships (which I concede may not be possible but it's got to be better than making unrealistic promises to be with someone forever at the altar).

Again though, my question is: what actual tangible benefits do you get from the government by being married? I only know about filing joint tax returns, and the immigration things I noted above. I'd be (genuinely) interested to know what other things there are.
07:58pm 28/08/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23328 posts
Marriage is a cultural institution. it is like asking what's the legal benefit to having a 21st birthday party. People do it because they have always done it.

There are some quite substantial legal benefits in relation to succession and family law, however. Testamentary trusts (trusts embedded in a will to ensure assets of the deceased do not go to unintended persons) and deceased estates that otherwise do not provide for defactos or mistresses have a higher standard of proof to prove connection to the deceased.

Marriage previously was a commercial/status partnership and there was no requirement for love, romance or everlasting commitment. Just watch the Borgias. But the notions of union forever and love are now infused into this institution.

Do we really want more single mothers and absent fathers (or whatever of the 33 genders you associate with)? No fault divorce obviously enables people to leave unsatisfactory marriage but will society shift its expectation to it being inevitable or expected, not merely a temporary commercial partnership during which people have children and cohabit. Even with feminism since the 60s, romance and marriage forever has been non-negotiable in the Western world.

Not everyone is so flexible on the permanent commitment. As Tracey Jordan's wife on 30 Rock said in response to his infidelity and his anxiety about her leaving him: "I WILL WATCH YOU DIE TRACEY JORDAN."
08:25pm 28/08/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4501 posts
Congratulations, my love. I've decided to renew your contract.

until death do us part, subject to a 30-day cooling-off period

to my mind - joint tax returns and the like aren't so much an inducement for people to get married as a reflection of reality - household finances are often merged

as for the other sweeteners, come on, it's the current year - and people are still going to get married and/or breed as much as they ever have if they don't get paid to do it

Immigration seems trickier to me, or rather emigration to some other country where a spousal-type visa does indeed require some official documentary evidence. And it can be a somewhat politicised issue - in Canada (where I left after getting PR but keep up with immigration matters) they have recently stopped recognising marriage ceremonies conducted over phone - oh yes, this is an actual thing
09:17pm 28/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38484 posts
Marriage is a cultural institution. it is like asking what's the legal benefit to having a 21st birthday party. People do it because they have always done it.
Cool, well I'm glad I'm in the position of being able to challenge the status quo!!! But in this case there /are/ specific legal benefits to being married so that's what I'm asking about :)

The succession/family law points are good, I'd forgotten about them.
Do we really want more single mothers and absent fathers (or whatever of the 33 genders you associate with)? No fault divorce obviously enables people to leave unsatisfactory marriage but will society shift its expectation to it being inevitable or expected, not merely a temporary commercial partnership during which people have children and cohabit. Even with feminism since the 60s, romance and marriage forever has been non-negotiable in the Western world.
I'd argue society has /already/ shifted to thinking more of marriage being a disposable construct. A quick look for stats in Australia shows something like 120,000 marriages / year and 46,000 divorces!!! That is even more than I would have guessed.

If we're speculating about what would happen, we also need to consider that having contracts in place at the start of a relationship could actually lower the single mother/absent father rate. If your obligations are made clear up-front when you enter a relationship (e.g., if any children are the result of the relationship the father must provide financial support in the order of $y annually for a period of no less than x years), instead of being something that is only resolved after it's too late and the child already exists, involving long and bitter court disputes and further enriching lawyers. Prevention is better than cure!
Marriage previously was a commercial/status partnership and there was no requirement for love, romance or everlasting commitment. Just watch the Borgias. But the notions of union forever and love are now infused into this institution.
Right but it /is/ a legal and contractual arrangement, right? Something that many people only find out after things collapse and they discover they're on the hook for alimony. Qld's go get married information page is not exactly crammed with information that explains your rights and obligations once you're married.

I'm not saying tear down the institution of marriage or that people who get married are doomed. I just think we've moved on from Ye Olde Dayes and it'd be nice to have more options and more choices and more flexibility - more freedom - for those wanting to get into relationships that can be formally recognised by governments.
09:18pm 28/08/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38485 posts
Immigration seems trickier to me, or rather emigration to some other country where a spousal-type visa does indeed require some official documentary evidence. And it can be a somewhat politicised issue - in Canada (where I left after getting PR but keep up with immigration matters) they have recently stopped recognising marriage ceremonies conducted over phone - oh yes, this is an actual thing
In the UK, the process I had to go through meant showing evidence like shared expenses, photos of us together, lease with our names on it, etc. I probably went overboard and ending up handing over a wad of documents about two inches thick. (It was stressful as f***.)

If we'd been married, I would have had to do the exact same thing, but also provide a copy of the marriage certificate and presumably would include wedding photos. So the differences are minimal, at least in the UK.

For the US the marriage certificate seems to hold way more weight; you can be married for a very short period but they still seem to accept it (IIRC you still have to show some evidence of relationship).

(TBH I think the fundamental problem is letting people into the country based on who they're married or in a relationship with. I think many countries are revisiting their immigration policies and moving to frameworks that will make it easier for individuals to come in to the country based on their own merits; I think in the future as long you're from a first world country, don't have a criminal history and look remotely like you'll be a productive member of society it'll be much easier to move between first world countries and the marriage/relationship requirement might slowly fade away or at least become less of a driver for people getting married to move overseas.)
09:28pm 28/08/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12352 posts
Well The ABC really is Fantasy Island for the Far Left.

Check this out:








12:34pm 01/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23332 posts
The Left is happy for free speech as long as they agree with your message.

Free speech is about being able to say things which may insult or offend. That is exactly what it means to be free.
12:52pm 01/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25483 posts
I think you'll find you receive scorn not because the things you say insult or offend but because they're incredibly dumb and poorly thought out. Also what you say never really seems to make much sense when you reconcile it with reality. Then when it's explained to you you'll usually double down on the dumbness and/or respond with mindless rhetoric much like your latest post.

Basically the things you say are utterly worthless yet you're so earnest about it all and say it with such conviction, yet sometimes it is so bizarre if it wasn't coming from you I'd think it would have to be some sort of parody attempt.. The hardest thing about responding to you is deciding whether to call you dumb or simply laugh. hth.
01:22pm 01/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12353 posts
Im going to say something that may disturb fpot, maybe Infi feels the same way about Fpots rantings.

The difference is Infi doesnt want to silence fpot

Only those with a weak argument seek to create rules for discussions and those rules are designed to weaken their opponents arguments. Such rules infantilize discussions in to more simpler concepts that those without knowledge of the subject can relate too.
01:45pm 01/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23333 posts
i don't want to silence fpot because the community can assess the merit of his statements. SJWs are eventually smoked out with their constant victim searching, and complaints about government inaction.

Part of the standard SJW arsenal is to make accusatory and value-laden statements against those they disagree with. 'dumbness, worthless"

In the marketplace of ideas the cream rises to the top and there is no need to force your agenda, because if it has merit it will gain acceptance. SJW's force their agenda through screaming down peaceful meetings, personal insults, damaging property and injury of others (often they injure themselves in the process in order to garner footage that can be used to demonstrate "brutality"). SJWs act with a sense of moral superiority which thus gives them license to ignore civil expectations.

fpot if you find it hard deciding how to respond try going for the option that doesn't involve using value laden judgements of others, and demeaning the right to freedom of speech. if you truly believe the comment is worthless then why invest your energy in it? everyone is free to have their say.
02:05pm 01/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25484 posts
Have you ever noticed how the only people to positively assess the merit of your statements are lonely, maladjusted misanthropes? There's a reason for that.
02:54pm 01/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25485 posts
03:57pm 01/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2063 posts
What's the photo about fpot?
05:18pm 01/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25487 posts
It's a North Korean and a Cameroon flag on public display for Mediterranean theme day. It reminded me of
that video.
05:24pm 01/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2064 posts
oh ok. the Imgur title was "where woolies get their food from".

It's got multiple angles.
05:31pm 01/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38490 posts
i don't want to silence fpot because the community can assess the merit of his statements. SJWs are eventually smoked out with their constant victim searching, and complaints about government inaction.

Part of the standard SJW arsenal is to make accusatory and value-laden statements against those they disagree with. 'dumbness, worthless"

In the marketplace of ideas the cream rises to the top and there is no need to force your agenda, because if it has merit it will gain acceptance. SJW's force their agenda through screaming down peaceful meetings, personal insults, damaging property and injury of others (often they injure themselves in the process in order to garner footage that can be used to demonstrate "brutality"). SJWs act with a sense of moral superiority which thus gives them license to ignore civil expectations.

fpot if you find it hard deciding how to respond try going for the option that doesn't involve using value laden judgements of others, and demeaning the right to freedom of speech. if you truly believe the comment is worthless then why invest your energy in it? everyone is free to have their say.
As per my other comments, the use of that three letter acronym is a sign that rational debate has left the building and it has now turned into logical fallacy ad hominem territory in which someone attempts to cast an entire encyclopaedia of liberal thought into oblivion

The cream of ideas /has/ risen to the top; it's pretty clearly a last-ditch gasp to try to silence dissenting though and it just highlights the sheer desperation of conservatives.

This comment popped on Slashdot yesterday; I think it's really interesting because it's one of the places that has historically used "SJW" as a negative term - but it seems that it is already burning out and people are sick of "arguments" in which it is used.

I really like arguing/debating these kinds of topics but there's nowhere to go when you use easily destroyed logical fallacies (e.g., one of the rallying points around which the anti-sjw crowd gather is, for whatever dumb reason, Anita Sarkeesian. You can't talk about liberal types "forcing their agenda" without mentioning how conservative types have tried to silence her opinion through death threats, in at least one cases threatening a mass shooting at a university that she was going to talk at.

There are nutbag f***wit extremists on both sides and trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I don't think fpot's comments are particuarly helpful; I think his tolerance for trying to debate things in the face of obviously conflicting comments and inconsistencies is much lower than mine which probably makes him much cleverer than me. But I think yours are equally bad (if not worse), because you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing him of, by trying to paint an entire segment of the population with a single brush (erroneously, imo).
06:54pm 01/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38491 posts
Btw this "free speech" post from Popehat (btw, this post from yesterday is really good; even though it is mostly on the conservative side it ends with a very clear reminder to that same side that free speech is a double-edged sword.
07:12pm 01/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2065 posts
even though it is mostly on the conservative side it


I really didn't read that. In what sense was popehat's view conservative?

Good article though. It's a great blog for those issues.
07:35pm 01/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4503 posts
I'd agree that the usage of SJW is a signpost for possible s***lordery ahead

There is a kernel of some social justice movements that seems more concerned with ruining the careers or impugning the reputations of those they feel have wronged them, than effecting any real change for their communities - this is where the "social justice warrior" term applies and not to the whole group.

And there are equally nasty elements on the other side. Anita Sarkeesian is at best an amateur pop culture critic but her ideas deserve to be either upheld or rebutted on their own merits. The torrent of sexist abuse directed at her is completely out of proportion - sometimes I think teenage boys should have to get a licence to send anything on the net
08:07pm 01/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23335 posts
Just remember trog there are those who wish to silence other using the force of government and guns, and then there are those who wish for freedom.

Should people be sued and fined for speaking their mind?

SJWs in a nutshell are offended by what does not align with their world view. That is not fair or right.
08:15pm 01/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25488 posts
Just remember trog there are those who wish to silence other using the force of government and guns, and then there are those who wish for freedom
False dilemma logical fallacy.
Slander and defamation laws have existed for a long time. Being sued and fined for speaking your mind is not a precedent being set here. The only precedent being set is that being racist is now included. And that's what you're scared of. Because you're racist.
09:15pm 01/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23336 posts
Slander is not a thing, whereas defamation is. It is a cause of action for people who make false and malicious statements about other individuals (not corporations). It has nothing to do with political discourse.

You have been caught by your own hyperlinking unfortunately.

Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act makes it an offense to offend or insult others which is arbitrary and impossible to define. Relying on 18C means the government crushes debate instead of airing it. (One side gets aired - the one which is in fashion with SJWs).

alsoo trog: "trigger warnings"?! lmfao gimme a break. trigger warnings are not a thing. trigger warnings are an invention, they exist in universities and public service agencies.
11:08pm 01/09/16 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3933 posts
I thought SJW was Super Jehovah Witness.

You really do learn something new everyday!
12:39am 02/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38492 posts
There is a kernel of some social justice movements that seems more concerned with ruining the careers or impugning the reputations of those they feel have wronged them, than effecting any real change for their communities - this is where the "social justice warrior" term applies and not to the whole group.
Yeh. They are the tiniest fringe part of the movement (if they're even real and not just from a Russian troll factory). They just make such great clickbait for terrible news sites that don't do elementary journalism or statistics to measure impact. Hence my comment in the other thread that they're only relevant on Twitter because of the stupid echo chamber that Twitter is.
Should people be sued and fined for speaking their mind?
This is a question that's hard to answer in a few words. I recommend the rest of the Popehat blog for interesting discussion on free speech. Because even in America where their right to free speech is enshrined in the constitution, it's not that simple a question.

I don't know if I have a personal opinion on this yet. I want to favour the Popehat free speech thing, because I want to believe in it.

Earlier in the thread I asked Faceman the question about that Muslim preacher in London that was recently locked up for non-stop recruitment for ISIS. I would be very interested to know what you think about that. Should his speech be tolerated?
Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act makes it an offense to offend or insult others which is arbitrary and impossible to define. Relying on 18C means the government crushes debate instead of airing it. (One side gets aired - the one which is in fashion with SJWs).
I haven't followed 18C but it sounds dumb on the surface.
alsoo trog: "trigger warnings"?! lmfao gimme a break. trigger warnings are not a thing. trigger warnings are an invention, they exist in universities and public service agencies.
Lots of things are an invention that only live in universities or public service agencies. Doesn't mean they're bad ideas.

Trigger warnings sound dumb to me but I'm fortunate to not have had any massive trauma in my life. I can easily imagine a scenario in which they might be a big deal to some people. How many times have trigger warnings caused me grief though? I mean, zero, obviously, like for most people in the world. Are film classification things trigger warnings? Game classifications? They're just a quick message describing the type of content. Why would you lose sleep over it?
01:21am 02/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2066 posts
Yeh. They are the tiniest fringe part of the movement (if they're even real and not just from a Russian troll factory). They just make such great clickbait for terrible news sites that don't do elementary journalism or statistics to measure impact. Hence my comment in the other thread that they're only relevant on Twitter because of the stupid echo chamber that Twitter is.


But they aren't are they Trog.

You can look into shirt gate, or the Tim Hunt affair (Tim Hunt was vilified by such "terrible news sites" as the f*****g BBC) or the rotherham sex gang, or the forced child marriage which David Cameron spoke out against here. Further commentary here I draw your attention to allowing cultural sensitivity to get in the way of policy in the second last paragraph.

To make it clear I am not and have never suggested you support any of those outcomes, but it is simply not the case that PC Culture and the attendant censoriousness is confined to twitter.

And to revisit rotherham, to call a systematic refusal by multiple police departments to refuse to investigate, in multiple cities for fear of being called racists cherry picking is beyond absurd. That's like saying oh you're just cherry picking when you say the catholic church in Ballarat systematically failed to deal with paedophile priests for 25 years. Multiple cities, Multiple senior police officers and over a thousand victims. It's a big cherry.

PC Culture is a normative moral framework (much like the church claims for itself). It's ability to be particularly easily abused by cynics should be a cause for concern if you want to say trite truisms like "some political correctness is a good thing". Anything which claims moral normative status should have conceptual stops in place to prevent excess. It's safe to say that didn't happen.
07:43am 02/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12354 posts
Earlier in the thread I asked Faceman the question about that Muslim preacher in London that was recently locked up for non-stop recruitment for ISIS. I would be very interested to know what you think about that. Should his speech be tolerated?


Yes, the problems with these Hate Preachers is they are never "taken on" in public. Its the same problem with the Internet, where these Preachers can talk directly to young Men in their bedrooms.

Bad Ideas are defeated by better Ideas.
The free exchange of Information and Ideas can help people form their own conclusions.
If someone tells you that you can only read one book, get your information from one source, demand you dont listen to alternative views, these are signs you are being manipulated, Lied to, someones Ideology may be doing the thinking for you.




12:35pm 02/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23337 posts
Lots of things are an invention that only live in universities or public service agencies. Doesn't mean they're bad ideas.


In terms of social/cultural norms, I would love to see an example that exists only in a university or public agency, that is a good idea. I say this with genuine interested because I have existed inside both and could not leave fast enough.

Once again, the marketplace of ideas dictates that if a university/government agency had a good idea it would go mainstream, so of which have (e.g. diversity officers, workplace childcare). I hope to never see a trigger warning in mainstream workplaces.
12:53pm 02/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2067 posts
In terms of social/cultural norms, I would love to see an example that exists only in a university or public agency, that is a good idea


In theory at least the pursuit of pure blue sky thinking is something Universities bring uniquely to the table.

CERN is another example. They have produced enormously profound knowledge that won't have an obvious commercial application for years to come.

And sometimes they have unintended useful spinoffs. CERN for example produced Protonmail.
01:30pm 02/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2068 posts
and for trog again



Proof of his final claim

PC Culture is a censorious ass wipe claiming the most superficial morality.
02:00pm 02/09/16 Permalink
Vash
4841 posts
This is amusing people keep linking to anti-capitalists. Zizek is a good man.
06:07pm 02/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2069 posts
Have you read any of his books vash?

And consider if he thinks its bulls*** what understanding do you have? Less than zero.
06:11pm 02/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25489 posts
You have been caught by your own hyperlinking unfortunately.
How so?
06:53pm 02/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23338 posts
How so?


it's not a false dilemma because all western societies including have defamation laws and and it is universally accepted in civil law that individuals cannot say false or malicious things about other individuals. however that is not the issue here.

we are talking about legislation which makes it an offense to offend or insult. it's a law against hurt feelings and it's ridiculous. this law is what's offensive because it gives the government the power to fine and imprison based on a court's (oh how so contemporary) view of what is good and bad taste. And gives victim-obsessed litigants the ability to bully and intimidate people with abuse of legal process.

This law is yet another brilliant example of Australia's Nanny State culture far exceeding either the USA or the UK.
07:43pm 02/09/16 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1174 posts


I don't think fpot's comments are particuarly helpful;

I think his tolerance for trying to debate things in the face of obviously conflicting comments and inconsistencies is much lower than mine which probably makes him much cleverer than me. .


I personally would like to hear what fpot really thinks

I think it would be entertaining,.
11:41pm 02/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38493 posts
And to revisit rotherham, to call a systematic refusal by multiple police departments to refuse to investigate, in multiple cities for fear of being called racists cherry picking is beyond absurd. That's like saying oh you're just cherry picking when you say the catholic church in Ballarat systematically failed to deal with paedophile priests for 25 years. Multiple cities, Multiple senior police officers and over a thousand victims. It's a big cherry.
I can see what you're saying but I don't think that one particular incident is an example of "political correctness" breaking things. It's not evidence of a systemic widespread failure in our society that is the direct result of political correctness. From the casual reading I've done (maybe when I have plenty of spare time and want to read something that makes me want to kill myself and everyone around me, I'll read the full report) PC is cited as a factor . The first analysis I can find on the BBC (my go-to resource for s***-that-happens-in-the-UK now that I live here states: "[the police] .. either didn't believe what they were being told, played it down, or were too nervous to act. The failures, the report says, are blatant." It sounds like fear of racism was a factor (certain up-played in the press) but was it the main cause in this instance?

Even if it was, even if it was 100% the result of people not wanting to say bad things about people of different race (and I'm not sure what evidence it would take to convince me that the entire tragedy was based solely on that problem) - it's clearly not "systemic" in the context that you're trying to use it, because the same problem isn't happening in other areas. It was systemic within the localised system of Rotherham, maybe? But that problem is not happening all over. Well outside of the Catholic Church (which is a great example of something with a systemic failure though amirite :)

Proof of his final claim

PC Culture is a censorious ass wipe claiming the most superficial morality.
When you paint with that broad a brush you're going to include a lot of dumb s***.

Btw, I think that is dumb. You realise I agree with you that a bunch of this s*** is dumb, right? Why are you so angry with me? Because I'm not filled with vitriol and frothy rage about how dumb it is? Surely you can see the counterpoint that sometimes it's not dumb and that it's bad form to be an obnoxious "non-politically correct" jerk.
PC Culture is a normative moral framework
Yeh like libertarianism and capitalism and socialism and communism. i.e., "it's a great idea in theory"
07:13am 03/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38494 posts
Yes, the problems with these Hate Preachers is they are never "taken on" in public. Its the same problem with the Internet, where these Preachers can talk directly to young Men in their bedrooms.
This is arguably false; this happens quite regularly - have you not seen the photos of the rallies where there ends up being two sides (e.g., skinheads vs hippies) coming to blows and then the police come in and teargas everyone?
Bad Ideas are defeated by better Ideas.
This is arguably false as well, because at some point you end up talking to someone who won't believe in a better idea, because their magic book tells them what ideas are good and bad.

I note you didn't answer my question though. Do you support extremist preachers being taken out of public circulation? i.e., do you support silencing extremist viewpoints when there is strong evidence to show that they are literally being used to kill people?
If someone tells you that you can only read one book, get your information from one source, demand you dont listen to alternative views, these are signs you are being manipulated, Lied to, someones Ideology may be doing the thinking for you.
Yeh! Right! But what happens when you end up with groups of people that force others in their community to read their One Book and take it as, if you'll pardon the pun, gospel? And that book says,
go forth and kill those that disagree with these words"? Or "don't let gays marry because they're too fabulous and it will make your boring hetero wedding look lame". Or "here, child of mine, take this pill made of water and it will cure your cancer". Memes that basically leverage fundamental weaknesses literally wired into our brain to spread virally?!

Do you just throw your hands in the air and go "well free speech"? Or do you carefully consider it and put limits around certain kinds of speech and have regulatory authorities to try to help manage the ebb and flow of the constantly changing universe?!!

The latter is obviously the situation we are in now. I don't know if it's all that bad.

In an attempt to forestall these comments as me being some sort of massive political correctness warrior and the inevitable example from 1964 where once a Catholic was converted to atheism through a cunningly worded argument and thus I am an idiot (nothing shows how politically correct I am like my historical comments about religion), I'll point out that a) I've said I think 18C is dumb b) I've said I tend to favour US-style 1A free speech, though I'm not convinced it's perfect and c) I want more than anything to live in a society of ideas and critical thinking.
08:07am 03/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38495 posts
Once again, the marketplace of ideas dictates that if a university/government agency had a good idea it would go mainstream, so of which have (e.g. diversity officers, workplace childcare).
Well, this might blow your mind but I am not at all convinced that diversity quotas (assuming that is what you mean?) are a good thing. People should be hired on their merits and their appropriateness for the job.

On one hand I think removing gender/race/etc from the hiring process is OK though because it helps remove biases that might otherwise sway opinion. On the other hand as a business owner I think there are many things that are important to know about who you're hiring to make sure they're a good fit for your team.
I hope to never see a trigger warning in mainstream workplaces.
Me too. But here's a thought experiment for you:

Small company of, say, 20 people. A new hire comes up on the radar. It is revealed during the hiring process that they has suffered some form of trauma, possibly sexual abuse. They are still edgy and distraught from it and raise it during their interview, saying that they are often profoundly affected by certain types of comments and they'd prefer it if their coworkers knew about it so they could avoid that kind of discussion in their presence.

Is it staggeringly wrong or stupid of the HR person then to maybe take the team aside before this new hire comes in and explain the situation and maybe encourage them to try to be careful about what they say? Is it literally the dumbest thing they could do try to try encourage some empathy from their teammates about this person's fragile state?

Is that a trigger warning? I don't think it's that big an ask. Certainly if that happened in a workplace I was part of I would take it on board, try to moderate my behaviour where possible, and not feel like I was being browbeaten into becoming some sort of tolerance weirdo. I think most people would be the same, IRL.
08:22am 03/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2070 posts
Lets try another tack.

Would you or would you not accept that Ballarat and Ballarat alone would constitute systematic behaviour?

Because I fail to see how repeated behaviour over a sustained period isn't systematic. It strikes me as the definition.

from the BBC on the Jay report.

Professor Alexis Jay's report, commissioned by Rotherham Borough Council, said: "Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be 'giving oxygen' to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion.


The ones that didn't say that just denied there was a problem at all. Which as far as I'm concerned is a tacit admission they did the same. It went on from 1997 to 2016. That's 19 years trog.

I'd like you to articulate the relevant difference that makes ballarat systematic and Rotherham not.

And if a single city doesn't count, here is more light reading.

Derby sex gang
Oxford sex gang
Bristol sex gang
Telford sex gang
Peterborough sex abuse case
Banbury sex gang
Aylesbury sex gang
Keighley sex gang

You realise I agree with you that a bunch of this s*** is dumb, right? Why are you so angry with me?


The final point is an exercise in demonstrating it's manifest inability to deal with its own excesses. Surely you saw and understood the main thrust of the video. PC is inherently authoritarian. It's authoritarian because it demands respect, and that to my mind stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept.

You have repeated claimed that it is confined to twitter. not a real issue, can't be taken seriously. At least you admit it must have been a factor now. Progress of a kind.
08:22am 03/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12356 posts
This is arguably false; this happens quite regularly - have you not seen the photos of the rallies where there ends up being two sides (e.g., skinheads vs hippies) coming to blows and then the police come in and teargas everyone?


War begins when both sides stop talking.

Do you support extremist preachers being taken out of public circulation?


There is no Idea too dangerous to discuss.
The Idea of silencing him is worse than anything he could say.
I want to stop Hate Preachers brainwashing people inside Mosques.
If they want to talk about ISIS do it in public and prepare to be challenged.

But what happens when you end up with groups of people that force others in their community to read their One Book and take it as, if you'll pardon the pun, gospel? And that book says, go forth and kill those that disagree with these words"?


The only defense we have against that is Freedom of Speech.
What you are describing is Totalitarianism.
The absolute opposite of a Liberal Democracy.

Do you just throw your hands in the air and go "well free speech"? Or do you carefully consider it and put limits around certain kinds of speech and have regulatory authorities to try to help manage the ebb and flow of the constantly changing universe?!!


Freedom of Speech requires no extra rules.
If someones voice is not being heard others will step up and defend them.
Like we have seen with the dreaded 18c and those students.

Freedom of Speech is not something you demand for yourself
It is something your demand for all, for everyone.

12:12pm 03/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12357 posts
But what happens when you end up with groups of people that force others in their community to read their One Book and take it as, if you'll pardon the pun, gospel? And that book says, go forth and kill those that disagree with these words"?


If we burned all the Books would that protect us from Evil ?
Books are a little like Guns.
It is we who deliver our Righteousness through them.
Humans are not infallible.
We get it wrong but we can never reform if we dont tolerate those who would challenge us. Our Enemies often tell us the Truth about ourselves.


03:28pm 03/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38496 posts
Would you or would you not accept that Ballarat and Ballarat alone would constitute systematic behaviour?
I actually just wrote a whole response about this and then finally realised you're writing "systematic" and not "systemic". Woops!
The final point is an exercise in demonstrating it's manifest inability to deal with its own excesses. Surely you saw and understood the main thrust of the video.
Sorry I don't generally watch videos; they are too slow and boring. I'll happily read anything you want though.
PC is inherently authoritarian. It's authoritarian because it demands respect, and that to my mind stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept.
Well, I disagree. I think PC /can/ be authoritarian. In my world though it's just a suggested framework for not going out of your way to offend people just for the sake of being a d***, even if I agree with your right to do so because I believe in freedom of speech and the right to offend. Nothing I've said implies or even remotely suggests that I think we should have PC laws or require SJWs to enforce them (indeed I think extremist SJWs are just as douchenozzley as f***wits like that Milo guy, and are probably responsible for this whole anti-SJW pushback which has gone way over the top and lead to bulls*** like Gamergate and, well, this conversation).
You have repeated claimed that it is confined to twitter. not a real issue, can't be taken seriously. At least you admit it must have been a factor now. Progress of a kind.
Not sure where I admitted anything but if you're just in this to score points off me, boo. I stand by my comments that the PC debate on the Twittersphere is massively out of proportion with its impact IRL.

I cannot imagine you will ever convince me that "political correctness" it is the underlying cause of criminal sexual abuse. I could possibly concede it as a small factor in failure to investigate abuse, but I would note that the report (sigh, I read a bunch of it) they actually include measures to ensure to attempt to mitigate the risk of people being scared of being abused of racial profiling (which is not really even listed as a major factor, especially amongst all the other significant issues).

FWIW reading those reports and some of the other cases just makes me more convinced that their is an underlying systemic problem - because there's one common thread weaving through them all that is way more obvious, and it's a stone-age religion that has a strong history of treating women and children (and people) like property. Maybe we should concentrate on that problem first. Oops, that's not very PC of me!
08:19pm 03/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38497 posts
The Idea of silencing him is worse than anything he could say.
I want to stop Hate Preachers brainwashing people inside Mosques.
Wat? So people should be allowed to say whatever they want. Except when it's inside a mosque?
The only defense we have against that is Freedom of Speech.
What you are describing is Totalitarianism.
The absolute opposite of a Liberal Democracy.
What I am describing is literally the situation we have been living in for centuries. Even the USA, the last bastion of "true" free speech, places a lot of limits around speech. Is it really working out that badly?

You have just slippery sloped what I'm saying by comparing our modern western democratic society to the Third Reich (or those s***** third world middle eastern countries where you get thrown in jail for expressing an opinion about whether or not god exists).

Besides, I'm not really advocating an opinion here, I'm asking whether or not you think that preacher should have been thrown in jail.

So far I can only extrapolate from your responses. I guess the answer is "no, unless he was brainwashing people in a mosque", which is not particularly consistent.
Freedom of Speech requires no extra rules.
If someones voice is not being heard others will step up and defend them.
Well the unwritten addition you're missing here is "others will step up and defend them if their idea is good". I would note that, even in the US where Freedom of Speech is (etc etc), they still have a lot of extra rules about it. There are regularly court cases to decide whether things are protected speech or not. Again I would refer you to the Popehat blog if you're interested in the cutting edge of free speech law (I don't really bother reading about it in other countries because nowhere else has the same kind of amazing protections the US has on speech).
Freedom of Speech is not something you demand for yourself
It is something your demand for all, for everyone.
Well, I've been somewhat involved in running this forum since about 1999, which has enabled many people to express a variety of interesting opinions publicly without fear of recrimination (aside from being yelled at by fpot :) . So take from that what you will about how I feel about giving people the opportunity to have a voice.
08:30pm 03/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2071 posts
I stand by my comments that the PC debate on the Twittersphere is massively out of proportion with its impact IRL.


I didn't say it wasn't. But the PC debate informs real policy. Perhaps not by twitter extremists directly but you don't have to move the position that far from the extreme.

To give you another example.
here is fpot

The only precedent being set is that being racist is now included. And that's what you're scared of. Because you're racist.

Perhaps infi is racist, perhaps he isn't. I've never seen anything you'd call a slam dunk in favour of the proposition. But that sentiment is exactly what is expressed by folks in favour of 18C. You could only have an issue with it if your racist. The argument infi put forward say that the words "insult" and "offend" are too broad and as such will inevitably come down to the idiosyncrasies of the judge hearing the complaint, to make for good law. In a fascinating turn of events, the Australia Law Reform Commission said that the law should be reviewed for *exactly* this reason. Maybe the ALRC are racist to but I think its going to be an up hill battle to establish that.

fwiw I also think insult or offend is a bridge too far. I'm more comfortable with humiliate attracting legal sanction but even then its not hard to imagine situations ripe for abuse of process.

Returning to the Rotherham situation. Again I never said PC was a first order cause. However one might validly say the fact it contributed to in going for the length of time it did, it is strongly implicated in the later assaults.

Section 11 of the report deals with ethnicity. I'll quote the summary in full. It is a total catastrophe that was allowed to fester for 19 years.

Here is the summary
Issues of ethnicity related to child sexual exploitation have been discussed in other
reports, including the Home Affairs Select Committee report, and the report of the
Children’s Commissioner. Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s
social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected
perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE. In
the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that
messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were
to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared
to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be
interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public
discussion of the issues was ill judged.
There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as
elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the
Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage
women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming
forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem
in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were
ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of
the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar
abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly
on young white girls.
Both women and men from the community voiced strong concern that other than two
meetings in 2011, there had been no direct engagement with them about CSE over the
past 15 years, and this needed to be addressed urgently, rather than 'tiptoeing'
around the issue.


They insisted on deal with "traditional leaders" who also helped to sweep the information under the rug. Tell me everything there isn't a total predictable and straightforward application of PC.

because there's one common thread weaving through them all that is way more obvious, and it's a stone-age religion that has a strong history of treating women and children (and people) like property. Maybe we should concentrate on that problem first.


Well no kidding. Tell me how you propose to deal with that with out kicking political correctness to the kurb? I don't see any obvious way. You are going to straight up have to say of a minority group this part of your culture sucks and you can't have it anymore.

In my world though it's just a suggested framework for not going out of your way to offend people just for the sake of being a d***

Of course there is room for civility, but I don't really see what this has to do with PC. PC culture is balls deep in oppression narrative.
one working definition might be:
the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.


That changes it from just being polite in my view. Radically. And in terms of insulting people, ridicule can be an extremely effective rhetorical technique. One might even say critical in fights against ISIS type folks.

Edit: and as the rotherham example shows, insisting on behaving that way is counter productive. Everything about it achieved the exact opposite outcome that was intended.

The marginalised group was denied access to justice, further marginalising them. The racists over at EDL were given ammo they couldn't have hoped for in a 1000 years.
10:05pm 03/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12358 posts
Wat? So people should be allowed to say whatever they want. Except when it's inside a mosque?


Much and all as I want him to STFU I have to tolerate it if I believe what I say.
How do we counter that ?
Demonstrate outside in a peaceful manner ?

...Better Ideas.



last edited by FaceMan at 23:09:56 03/Sep/16
11:02pm 03/09/16 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1667 posts
I run a small business and that is not true what you just said about taxes FaceMan as you see it. Your arguement is basically just saying "trickle down".

And that has been proven not to work. Why do you keep saying it? Look at Europe? They tax the rich above the poor. the support massive social policy like welfare and they have less unemployment and business instability. The (aust) libs views are like 1950's America. It was nice for fat middle class and upper white males but it has to end.

The mining tax was a great idea and should of been ramped up not scaled back. The carbon tax was a great idea.

You just come across as the usual self entitled "i made it so everyone else can pull themselves up by their boot straps" (even when they got daddies monies like trump) lib that ever was.

boo you sir. boooo you!
12:36am 06/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12360 posts
quote what I said^ ?
Sam Dastyari ?

Isnt that the guy that said he was a Muslim to Hanson on Q&A but a week earlier told a Doco he was an Atheist ?

Spends lots of money ?????
gets a donation from a well connected Chinese Company

Asks questions on Australian Security viz China at an official inquiry

Proclaims the exact opposite of official ALP Policy on Chinas expansion

Then claims he Miss-spoke

I know who he is...

http://www.desktop4ipad.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Johnny-English-Reborn_RA_suave-500x500.jpg



last edited by FaceMan at 22:55:27 06/Sep/16
10:53pm 06/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23342 posts
Look at Europe? They tax the rich above the poor. the support massive social policy like welfare and they have less unemployment and business instability.


Eurozone unemployment is 10% #justsayin
12:31pm 07/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1908 posts

Eurozone unemployment is 10% #justsayin


The highest taxing countries actually have pretty good employment rates?

It's amazing how the right love free speech when you want to be a racist. Other times not so much.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cro8eq8VMAE9YKh.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cro8gcrUIAABXCa.jpg
06:33pm 08/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23345 posts
That is personal defamation which is a tort at civil law in most countries. The Chaser implied Kenny f**** dogs - which is a lie.
07:00pm 08/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12362 posts
Everyone at the ABC complained how that cartoon was Racist beyond belief
LateLine 7.30 Q& ABC online
but Press Council says NO

When are we going to see some kind of reform of The ABC ?
Its the Socialist Alliance TV Network funded by Taxpayers.
More than half the votes cast at the Election were Conservative/Right
There is nobody on the Right at The ABC

The ABC is pro-diversity as long as that doesnt include White or Right.


07:13pm 08/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1909 posts
Are you actually kidding? Off the top of my head there's Chris Berg from the IPA on the drum all the time and another guy from the ACU thats a pastor or something writing about how horrible it would be for the gays to be married.

You probably think that Peter van Onselen is from the left at the Oz.

That is personal defamation which is a tort at civil law in most countries. The Chaser implied Kenny f**** dogs - which is a lie.


But racist lies are fine right?
08:10pm 08/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38501 posts
Eurozone unemployment is 10% #justsayin
FWIW Euro unemployment is falling pretty quickly ; if it continues it'll be back to 2008 levels (below 7%) within a year or two. The trainwrecks that are Spain & Greece are also responsible for a big chunk of the high percentage but they're falling even rapidly than the average, too, so maybe they are even sorting their s*** out?!? (source: this awesome google chart
08:52pm 08/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23346 posts
But racist lies are fine right?


racist says you? or fpot?

FWIW Euro unemployment is falling pretty quickly


not really, America's unemployemnt rate fell AGES ago. maybe because they have a much less regulated labor market....

#juststayin
09:39pm 08/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25491 posts
racist says you? or fpot?
Says people who aren't racist.
10:25pm 08/09/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9302 posts
Says people who aren't racist.

Says people who aren't racist or says people who recite the phrase "I'm not a racist, but..."
11:01am 09/09/16 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1178 posts
Yep....its gonna be called he R-word if you guys dont stop it.
12:27am 10/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12364 posts
The moment Hillary lost the Presidency





Make America Great Again


03:14pm 11/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1910 posts

Despite Casino Mike trying to install Tone's sister as Mayor of Sydney by giving businesses 2 votes and people just one the good guys have won after all.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-11/nsw-council-elections-swings-against-liberals-baird-blamed/7834208



Thank god I don't have to incite riots tomorrow.

Also, lol @ friendly jordies "gogglebox loving audience" description of the telegraph readership.


06:18pm 11/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4505 posts
The moment Hillary lost the Presidency

to be fair she only insulted the car on the lawn people who weren't voting for her anyway
06:37pm 11/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2073 posts
Never a good idea to slag off the voters. Even in a low risk way
07:06am 12/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12365 posts
She is more like some kooky celebrity than someone about to lead the Free World.
Her Health is abysmal, is she going to make it to the Election ?
There is no way she is fit enough to debate Trump.

She cant travel in a Car, needs a van
She had an earpiece in at the recent commanders event
Numerous coughing fits, bizarre head shaking
She stumbled today getting in to her "Medi-Van"and had to be helped in by two staff, couple of hours later shes out waving to the crowd like nothings wrong.




is she having a Seizure ?



last edited by FaceMan at 12:49:15 12/Sep/16
12:47pm 12/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4506 posts
lol sorry, there's no way that bloviating ignoramus is going to win by default

Hilldog 2016
07:23pm 12/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38505 posts
not really, America's unemployemnt rate fell AGES ago. maybe because they have a much less regulated labor market...
yeh but it peaked far earlier and FAR faster than in Europe - maybe because they have a much less regulated labor market?!?
07:48pm 12/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23351 posts
yeh but it peaked far earlier and FAR faster than in Europe - maybe because they have a much less regulated labor market?!?


Because their market was the epicenter of the GFC.....
08:13pm 12/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2074 posts
Hilldog will crush him in the debates as well.

A handle on the facts help in the presidential debates more than in the primaries.

It's Hilliary's to lose.
08:53pm 12/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38506 posts
Because their market was the epicenter of the GFC.....
.... because of their near-total lack of regulations :D
05:43am 13/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23352 posts
.... because of their near-total lack of regulations :D


well, yes, there is that.
07:26am 13/09/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9306 posts
I don't know what's worse about the subprime mortgage collapse - that it was able to happen to begin with, or that despite everything that happens, no-one went to jail over it. That the government bailed out Freddie Mac to the tune of over $15b, and instead of placing the blame on people doing dodgy s***, basically blamed immigrants and poor people. And that 7 years on they're now just doing exactly the same thing with collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) just rebadged under another name - a 'Bespoke tranche opportunity' (BTO).
10:56am 13/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23353 posts
The problem for me was the bailouts and the ensuing stimulus.

I still love the analogy that the GFC was the massive hangover resulting from a booze-fueled party. The people who threw the party and trashed the house get no punishment. And the government prescribes more alcohol!

Government has completely corrupted the moral hazard; if you are too important or too big to fail you get a bailout. It is preferable to let failing companies die so new ones can sprout up. There will be some scratches and bruises but it is better than the cringeworthy economic policy applied by all major eocnomies. Printing money (helicopter money) and negative interest rates will not fix anything.
11:08am 13/09/16 Permalink
Vash
4842 posts
http://i.imgur.com/xNpoqfe.png

What's in the water up there QLD? First Faceman, now this guy.
02:54pm 14/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25493 posts
It is basic. The sun warms the earth’s surface. The surface, by contact, warms the moving, circulating atmosphere. That means the atmosphere cools the surface. How then can the atmosphere warm it? It cannot. That is why their computer models are wrong.
An actual thing an elected official said in Australia.

edit:

Government has completely corrupted the moral hazard; if you are too important or too big to fail you get a bailout. It is preferable to let failing companies die so new ones can sprout up. There will be some scratches and bruises but it is better than the cringeworthy economic policy applied by all major eocnomies. Printing money (helicopter money) and negative interest rates will not fix anything.
KInd of reminds me of this guy I know. Had a fairly privledged life. Went to fancy schools and was put through a prestigious law school. After he graduated he made it into the public sector in some sort of consultancy role or something. Problem is he is dumb as s***, and as soon as he left the comfy confines of the education system and into the real world he was exposed as such. Left that high paying job to go work for his father or something. Personally I reckon it would be fairer if instead of having that safety net to fall into that he actually be made to pay for his failures. Guess some people are too coddled to fail.
03:11pm 14/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2075 posts
That the government bailed out Freddie Mac to the tune of over $15b


They sort of had to with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. They were created by government to make risky loans. It's not the poor people's fault they were offered loans they couldn't properly afford. Those to institutions were designed to take larger risks. There is a broader question about the wisdom of making securities out of the assets they created. That seems more a failing of Lehman Bros types to me.
09:46pm 14/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1912 posts

http://www.vice.com/en_au/read/australias-immigration-policy-costs-us-almost-10-billion?utm_source=vicefblocalau

While it's long been known that offshore detention takes a psychological toll on refugees, it's also taken a financial one on Australian taxpayers—to the tune of almost $10 billion. According to a new report released today by Save the Children and UNICEF Australia, our current asylum seeker policies have cost us $9.6 billion since 2013, and will cost a further $5.7 billion over the next four years.


Imagine if we just spent that money on settling and processed them onshore and admitted the genuine refugees.

A lot of them would already be contributing to positively to society instead of developing mental problems with indefinite detention. You'd probably have spare change to setup other programs.

This is seriously f***ed up and history will not look on this period of time in Australia favorably.
11:22am 15/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23357 posts
That could become a nice little earner for the people smugglers.

We have just stopped people dying on the rocks at Christmas Island and you want to start it up again. Shame.
11:33am 15/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12367 posts
There should be more focus on the costs rather than make believe stories that come out of the greens, that whiney Burnside and the ABC of course.
Its unlikely much would change under Labor.

Super Tax got axed.
The first attempt to grab a piece of that massive pie might have failed but it wont be the last. You dont ever want to get between Government and a big bag of money.
They will come for our Super in the future.



01:02pm 15/09/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21018 posts
Hilldog will crush him in the debates as well.

A handle on the facts help in the presidential debates more than in the primaries.

It's Hilliary's to lose.


i dunno, he is very shouty

american's love shouty

She is more like some kooky celebrity than someone about to lead the Free World.
Her Health is abysmal, is she going to make it to the Election ?
There is no way she is fit enough to debate Trump.

She cant travel in a Car, needs a van
She had an earpiece in at the recent commanders event
Numerous coughing fits, bizarre head shaking
She stumbled today getting in to her "Medi-Van"and had to be helped in by two staff, couple of hours later shes out waving to the crowd like nothings wrong.


and in the end facey for all of your senseless rambling it turns out she has a chest infection / pneumonia

how dare she get sick and still try to power on with the job

i know you won't reply to this because you never reply to anyone's pointing out when you are utterly full of s***
01:23pm 15/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25494 posts
That could become a nice little earner for the people smugglers. We have just stopped people dying on the rocks at Christmas Island and you want to start it up again. Shame.
Pretending for a second that people smugglers are an actual issue and not a giant red herring no it wouldn't be. Remove the multibillion dollar costs of running concentration camps and the multimillion dollar costs of that absurb Cambodia deal and we can afford to provide safe passage. Yes yes, you're about to bleat away about being swamped by the brown migrant hordes but for those of us with basic understandings of push and pull factors and logistics this isn't a great concern.

You like the concentration camps because you enjoy seeing brown people suffer. I know this because you'll readily believe the web of flimsy lies the government has created for you despite the fact they make no sense and don't stand up to scrutiny. Because you're racist.
02:22pm 15/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12368 posts
She has to front up for the Debates and will have to stand their for at least an hour answering questions.
I dont see that happening.

Days since Hillary took questions at a press conference
http://www.tickcounter.com/countup/1449273600000/us-central/dhms/FFFFFF3B5998000000FF0000/Days_Since_Hillary's_Last_Press_Conference
285 days

Heres another view of her losing it at that 9/11 event



Couple of hours later shes out the front of her daughters address all smiles and waving to the Press but with big sunglasses on, she also seemed slimmer. suspicions are a Body Double is being used.

maybe she needs a new Goa'uld

Concentration Camp ? LOL
Things cant be too bad or they would go home.


05:49pm 15/09/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3068 posts
So you're telling me this lady had pneumonia yet was still campaigning, attending functions, and working to the max? Then had a little exhaustion collapse as a result?

Most of us stay home from work for a flu! I had pneumonia a year ago and literally couldn't get out of bed for about a week. I don't see how this makes her appear weak tbh.

Didn't she previously do a 11 hour hearing on the Benghazi trials which she was widely considered to perform very well in?

It doesn't matter what she does, everyone will still find a reason to criticise her, especially the Trumpians - it's rather depressing really.
07:05pm 15/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23358 posts
Pretending for a second that people smugglers are an actual issue and not a giant red herring no it wouldn't be. Remove the multibillion dollar costs of running concentration camps and the multimillion dollar costs of that absurb Cambodia deal and we can afford to provide safe passage. Yes yes, you're about to bleat away about being swamped by the brown migrant hordes but for those of us with basic understandings of push and pull factors and logistics this isn't a great concern.

You like the concentration camps because you enjoy seeing brown people suffer. I know this because you'll readily believe the web of flimsy lies the government has created for you despite the fact they make no sense and don't stand up to scrutiny. Because you're racist.


it's about having control of our borders. the quintessential definition of a sovereign country is one that has its borders under control.

when refugees and people smugglers dictate a country's intake, and not government policy then you know the tail is wagging the dog. it will inevitably cause serious civil disturbance and political consequences. so while fpot likes to think he is mr niceguy and that it would be better to hand all the taxpayer funds directly to the unverified refugees before riding off into the aussie sunset, the fact is that the money spent on these programs is in order to maintain law and order otherwise we will end up with tens of thousands of arrivals like under kevin 07.

i don't enjoy seeing people suffer, it is terrible that they are being abused by people smugglers taking advantage of their desperation. australia has a definite obligation to provide safe living conditions in mandatory detention, but i agree with mandatory detention and not being settled here if they come by boat.

it isn't racism, it's just maintaining law and order. if you want rafferty's rules go somewhere else - and the australian overwhelmingly public support it. stick your lame racism allegations up your jumper.
07:20pm 15/09/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7490 posts
Pretending for a second that people smugglers are an actual issue and not a giant red herring no it wouldn't be. Remove the multibillion dollar costs of running concentration camps and the multimillion dollar costs of that absurd Cambodia deal and we can afford to provide safe passage. Yes yes, you're about to bleat away about being swamped by the brown migrant hordes but for those of us with basic understandings of push and pull factors and logistics this isn't a great concern.

You like the concentration camps because you enjoy seeing brown people suffer. I know this because you'll readily believe the web of flimsy lies the government has created for you despite the fact they make no sense and don't stand up to scrutiny. Because you're racist.


F*** you fpot, you f***** racist hypocrite

You are always banging on about 'brown people' migrants and how we should be taking more of them. Well what about all of the 'black', 'yellow' and 'white' migrants who are trying to find refuge in Australia from war and tyranny. Why do you only want brown people here you racist f***?
07:29pm 15/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25495 posts
i don't enjoy seeing people suffer
Yeah you do, because they're a savage people, and savage treatment is all they understand.

edit:
You are always banging on about 'brown people' migrants and how we should be taking more of them. Well what about all of the 'black', 'yellow' and 'white' migrants who are trying to find refuge in Australia from war and tyranny. Why do you only want brown people here you racist f***?
Heh the 'it is you who is the real racist' routine. Very cute.
07:33pm 15/09/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40282 posts
reasonbly sure that was a joke brah
08:09pm 15/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25496 posts
Here's a real joke -

http://i.imgur.com/rWwqKAH.jpg
03:07pm 16/09/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3071 posts
I'm not sure saving people from drowning at sea to torture them in taxpayer funded detention centres is really a win.
05:51pm 16/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23360 posts
I'm not sure saving people from drowning at sea to torture them in taxpayer funded detention centres is really a win.


If your primary objective is border security and integrity it's a big win to also stop people dying in the process.

How anyone could wish for people smuggling to start up again is straight out sick.
06:13pm 16/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38508 posts
I'm not sure saving people from drowning at sea to torture them in taxpayer funded detention centres is really a win.
this is a simply f*****g excellent sentence
If your primary objective is border security and integrity it's a big win to also stop people dying in the process.
Yes but let's not create a false dichotomy where we pretend our two options are a) have people drown b) torture people in detention centres (and that one of those crappy piece of s*** options is better than the other).

It's not "stop the boats or Australia dies" as much as Abbott wanted us to believe that with his agonising and embarrassing catchphrase
07:00pm 16/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38509 posts
The problem for me was the bailouts and the ensuing stimulus.

I still love the analogy that the GFC was the massive hangover resulting from a booze-fueled party. The people who threw the party and trashed the house get no punishment. And the government prescribes more alcohol!

Government has completely corrupted the moral hazard; if you are too important or too big to fail you get a bailout. It is preferable to let failing companies die so new ones can sprout up. There will be some scratches and bruises but it is better than the cringeworthy economic policy applied by all major eocnomies. Printing money (helicopter money) and negative interest rates will not fix anything.
I agree with this but it's tough to argue that what they did was actually "bad", except from an internally consistent principled standpoint of course.

I find myself struggling to get too annoyed at what they did as much as I would have preferred for there to be no bailout because I think what they did probably forestalled a much bigger crisis. Not only that as far as I can tell the US government cleaned up from an ROI point of view, in terms of sheer dollars but also to demonstrate to their creditors that their economy is sound and will you please keep lending us more trillions.

I would like to think future bailouts will be much harder to get but I haven't seen much evidence of new regulation in the US stopping things from getting to that "too big to fail" point.

New idea: if your company becomes too big to fail, it is declared a national security risk and is nationalised.
07:04pm 16/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23361 posts
The government may have got their money back but the Reserve kept printing money and in turn delivering it by the truckload to the 1%.

Out of the GFC the ultra rich have been the biggest winners because it has inflated the real estate and stock markets stupendously.

So socialists who love big government dont have a lot to celebrate in this instance.
07:09pm 16/09/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9309 posts
I'm not so much annoyed that they bailed the banks out. That's a smart thing to do.

I'm thoroughly dumbfounded though that they protected the people responsible. Only a single person faced any kind of criminal prosecution whatsoever, and then no new regulations or laws were put in place to ensure the same behaviour couldn't continue. Not only that, but the bailout was made in such a way that it in no way restricted how they could use the money - the banks went and used to money in precisely the way noone wanted them to - paying each other out, and giving their own executives massive bonuses.

That this wasn't prevented is just insane.
07:16pm 16/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23362 posts
Yes but let's not create a false dichotomy where we pretend our two options are a) have people drown b) torture people in detention centres (and that one of those crappy piece of s*** options is better than the other).

It's not "stop the boats or Australia dies" as much as Abbott wanted us to believe that with his agonising and embarrassing catchphrase


Well if you subscribe to the theory that if a government doesn't control It's borders then it's not really a government (a theory which Australians overwhelmingly support) then it becomes the primary objective.

Indefinite detention is exacerbated by the sheer volume of arrivals and the often deliberate attempts by arrivals to obfuscate destroying or failing to bring suitable identifying documents.

Just yesterday the immigration department advised one third of current asylum seekers (10,000) would not meet the refugee test and now face indefinite uncertainty because there is no way to ascertain their home country.

This is what happens when Australia plays loose and fast border security policy.

The detention centres are not torture. That is a lame SJW hyperbole. They have food clothing and shelter and just can't leave when they want to because they are unverified security risks.

As with any Public service system it is f*****g hopeless, corrupt and error ridden so we just have to expose the weaknesses in the contractors and keep them honest because the detainees deserve to be safe while they are detained.
07:17pm 16/09/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40284 posts
conroy (d***) ninja quits.

good.
07:18pm 16/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25498 posts
Discounting all the absolute bulls*** that just spewed from your mouth, to actually see someone defending the concentration camps by uttering these words

They have food clothing and shelter


defies belief. It requires a special kind of focussed ignorance to speak those words earnestly.

Just because a large group of people say a terrible thing is okay doesn't make that thing not terrible. I learned that one when I was a child. Only someone blinded by wilful ignorance would put a single ounce of faith in what our immigration department says.

Watching you spiral down the rabbit hole using utterly bizarre logic to explain the government's action re asylum seekers is quite a treat. Would anyone else like to know why infi experiences a sudden crowding of the pants when he sees brown people suffer? It's because he's a spoiled racist brat.
08:42pm 16/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23363 posts
Discounting all the absolute bulls*** that just spewed from your mouth, to actually see someone defending the concentration camps by uttering these words



defies belief. It requires a special kind of focussed ignorance to speak those words earnestly.

Just because a large group of people say a terrible thing is okay doesn't make that thing not terrible. I learned that one when I was a child. Only someone blinded by wilful ignorance would put a single ounce of faith in what our immigration department says.

Watching you spiral down the rabbit hole using utterly bizarre logic to explain the government's action re asylum seekers is quite a treat. Would anyone else like to know why infi experiences a sudden crowding of the pants when he sees brown people suffer? It's because he's a spoiled racist brat.


As you stated at the start of your ranting comment, a very large number of people believe this public policy is good for Australia. So your personal insults are pointless - you would end up insulting millions of decent Australians. You just tried the failed Hillary "deplorables" strategy.

And nothing you or the greens write will ever change it. Secure borders are here to stay.
08:58pm 16/09/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7491 posts
I'm not sure saving people from drowning at sea to torture them in taxpayer funded detention centres is really a win.



hmm living in miserable conditions in a s***** detention centre for a few years or being dead?

that's a tough one

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 13:48:28 17/Sep/16
01:44pm 17/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38513 posts
Well if you subscribe to the theory that if a government doesn't control It's borders then it's not really a government (a theory which Australians overwhelmingly support) then it becomes the primary objective.
Hmm I'm not sure what logical fallacy here to complain about first - the strawman or the nirvana fallacy
Indefinite detention is exacerbated by the sheer volume of arrivals and the often deliberate attempts by arrivals to obfuscate destroying or failing to bring suitable identifying documents.

Just yesterday the immigration department advised one third of current asylum seekers (10,000) would not meet the refugee test and now face indefinite uncertainty because there is no way to ascertain their home country.

This is what happens when Australia plays loose and fast border security policy.
Well given that most asylum seekers arrive perfectly legally in the country this has nothing to do with how we treat other asylum seekers. It is a massive strawman!

Unless you're literally proposing we turn basically everyone back at the border or essentially make it impossible for anyone at all to come to Australia.

It is crazy to pretend that it's possible for a country to "protect it's borders" with 100% reliability.! That is the nirvana fallacy - there is no way to stop every remotely dangerous person from entering the country. You can try to stop EVERYONE entering the country (but of course you will almost certainly fail) but the cost of doing that would be massive because it would destroy so many industries. We can't just build a Trump-esque wall around the country because we're scared of the vanishingly tiny amount of bad apples.

I say this as someone that loves Border Security and loves watching dangerous/risky/dodgy people get busted by our Customs & immigration people btw. I think they do a staggering job considering the challenges.
The detention centres are not torture. That is a lame SJW hyperbole. They have food clothing and shelter and just can't leave when they want to because they are unverified security risks.
TRIGGER WORD DETECTED IGNORING SENTENCE
As with any Public service system it is f*****g hopeless, corrupt and error ridden so we just have to expose the weaknesses in the contractors and keep them honest because the detainees deserve to be safe while they are detained.
wait who is hopeless and corrupt here? the public service or the private contractors in their employ!?
09:30pm 17/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23364 posts
Hmm I'm not sure what logical fallacy here to complain about first - the strawman or the nirvana fallacy


i value border security very highly and I expecy the government to implement tough measures.

It is crazy to pretend that it's possible for a country to "protect it's borders" with 100% reliability.! That is the nirvana fallacy - there is no way to stop every remotely dangerous person from entering the country. You can try to stop EVERYONE entering the country (but of course you will almost certainly fail) but the cost of doing that would be massive because it would destroy so many industries. We can't just build a Trump-esque wall around the country because we're scared of the vanishingly tiny amount of bad apples.


since operation sovereign borders started all boats have been intercepted and re-directed. so yeah...

Unless you're literally proposing we turn basically everyone back at the border or essentially make it impossible for anyone at all to come to Australia.


that would be fine by me. proper border security means you don't come in until you are invited.

TRIGGER WORD DETECTED IGNORING SENTENCE


using a superficial reason to ignore substance. hmmm how very SJW. sorry for triggering you.

wait who is hopeless and corrupt here? the public service or the private contractors in their employ!?


being a public sector program - every operator at every level, is either hopeless or corrupt. (edit: left unchecked) i stated elsewhere that detention centres should have onsite inspectors which are not employed by the DoI. as a government contractor myself our industry has very strict 24/7 external auditing where sites can be inspected without notice.

the great news is that Tony Abbott's policy massively reduced the number of new arrivals and existing detainees so many centres are closing and I hope more close very soon. the less people who are in detention, the less contractors and stuff ups.
09:47pm 17/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38514 posts
since operation sovereign borders started all boats have been intercepted and re-directed. so yeah...
Right but the majority of "illegal" immigrants, or asylum seekers, or whatever, do not come by boat. So 'stopping the boats', while a no doubt a great achievement and one that will be sung in the halls of the Liberal Party for all eternity, hasn't really done anything to stop the problem you're talking about (i.e., protection of our sovereign borders).

I agree it's good that it is stopping deaths at the hands of unscrupulous people smuggling f***wits though!
that would be fine by me. proper border security means you don't come in until you are invited.
[pulls ejection handles]
12:10am 18/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2076 posts
Just yesterday the immigration department advised one third of current asylum seekers (10,000) would not meet the refugee test and now face indefinite uncertainty because there is no way to ascertain their home country.


I would need to research this more closely (and I can't be assed), but I would be wary of touting that stat. It almost certainly comes as a result of Australia tinkering with the real risk test for refugee status, in flagrant violation of the terms of the convention.

We adjusted the the real risk to some 50-50 test, which makes refugees only able to leave a situation when in it is a virtual certainty they are going to be killed, or in other words, probably until after it is too late. The reality of political persecution is that people want to leave, and more over should be entitled to leave, long before they *know* the men with guns are coming.

But even at that heightened standard more than 2/3rd qualify. Which is why this sentiment:

that would be fine by me. proper border security means you don't come in until you are invited


In relation to refugees is particularly wrong headed. And why the refugee convention specifically forbids punishing people for failure to conform with immigration regulation.
11:14am 18/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25499 posts
you would end up insulting millions of decent Australians
Here it is for you really simple.

Anyone who thinks that the current asylum seeker situation in Australia is even remotely a good thing is either -

a) a gullible fool who will believe anything they're told
b) a malignant racist c***

There is no option c.

edit: actually there is

c) a mixture of a and b
08:26pm 19/09/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9311 posts
Well given that most asylum seekers arrive perfectly legally in the country this has nothing to do with how we treat other asylum seekers. It is a massive strawman!


I wish people would stop spewing this.

A lot of them don't.

International law is completely and utterly clear that you have to claim asylum in the first country you pass through which accepts refugees and asylum can be claimed.

In an extremely large number of cases these people pass through Indonesia - which meets this criteria.

On that basis alone their request for asylum in Australia should be rejected if they're found to have passed through these countries.

This is why I keep saying we need a pool system, where a person would claim asylum in one of the member countries, and by requesting asylum at that point it a condition that they will *not* be placed in that country, but will be relocated to another country, at random, from within the pool.
09:24pm 19/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2077 posts
While there is little doubt forum shopping takes place. This:

In an extremely large number of cases these people pass through Indonesia - which meets this criteria.


Is inaccurate. Indonesia isn't a signatory of the convention. Refugees can never resettle there as a right, and there is no path to citizenship effectively leaving them stateless.

A pool would be great, but Indonesia has steadfastly refused to be part of one.

Edit
Here is the High commission's thoughts on the matter of first safe country.

Clear is a strong word for that.
09:46pm 19/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12377 posts
man I have had enough of hearing about Gay Marriage - and I support it.
Its like the Missus reminding you to Mow the Lawn
Just Do It








12:39am 21/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1914 posts
man I have had enough of hearing about Gay Marriage - and I support it.
Its like the Missus reminding you to Mow the Lawn
Just Do It


No no, first we need to give 10s of millions to advertising execs to run some ads about how letting the gays have the same rights will undo the space time fabric of society.
01:30pm 21/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2078 posts
No no, first we need to let folks cum on camera about how much they love gay relationships.

I also look forward to politicians who until literally the last election cycle opposed gay marriage talk about the damage it'll do to the children,

drowning at sea

suffering indescribable mental torture for a right exclusively exercised by adults.
02:05pm 21/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23366 posts
Here is the High commission's thoughts


let's listen to an unelected boffin. right....

leaders around the world are now seriously considering the australian border control model due to its success.

article.
03:58pm 21/09/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25500 posts
The Australian is paywalled dumbshoes. As a true bastion of journalistic integrity I am sure it was a worthwhile article and not just right-wing trash solely designed to fuel the confirmation bias of easily led numpties.
04:19pm 21/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12378 posts
The federal government is standing by Australia's non-discriminatory immigration policy, as a new poll shows almost half of voters want to ban Muslim immigration.

The poll found 60 per cent support for the Muslim immigration ban among coalition voters, 40 per cent from Labor and a surprising 34 per cent from Greens voters.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/09/21/13/34/poll-suggests-49-back-muslim-migrant-ban#SWcVSKyZOqe7sF3A.99

34% of greens voters support a ban on Muslim immigration.

QLD State Election is going to be a One Nation tsunami
06:28pm 21/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2079 posts
Not sure I follow you infi.

International law is exclusively developed by appointees and not elected officials.

Australia entered a treaty which gave rise specific obligations, public opinion doesn't alter the nature of the commitment and therefore your criticism that the UNHCR is insufficiently democratic is invalid.
09:12pm 21/09/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9312 posts
I'm sure the number would be much, much higher than represented in that article if broken down to the specific elements of various religions which people don't like. The treatment towards women, the attitudes towards non-Muslims, the refusal by some to denounce terrorism, the outcry for some to support religous-based laws and have one set of laws for themselves and another for everyone else.
09:47pm 21/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23367 posts
Not sure I follow you infi.


international law is developed by custom and practice, and by countries entering into treaties. the UNHCR can be ignored because it is unaccountable, it can give advice. the only consequence to a non-compliant country could be expulsion from the treaty which I suspect would require a vote of the other treaty members and has nothing to do with the unelected boffins.

the refugee treaty is a bad treaty because it impinges australia's border control. australia should withdraw from it. we are far kinder and humane than most of the treaty members anyways.
09:52pm 21/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2080 posts
and by countries entering into treaties.



The UNHCR is established by the refugee convention. Hence it is created by the treaty powers to determine the content of international law surrounding refugees.

I don't see how being unelected is particularly important to that work.

All treaties make inroads into sovereignty, it is in their inherent nature to do that. In fact I'd say most treaties make deeper inroads into our sovereignty.

I understand border control is something you endlessly talk about, but even at the height of the boats under Gillard we never went under around 95% regular arrivals. No serious person can argue that letting the refugees through is the same as no control over borders.
07:09pm 22/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1915 posts
11:32am 23/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12379 posts
Books that support Traditional Marriage are now too dangerous to print !

The Australian Marriage Forum announces: Yesterday, the publisher, Connor Court, was notified by the printer, McPherson's, in writing: "Due to the subject matter and content of your book, unfortunately I have been instructed by senior management not to proceed with printing this title."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/printer-bans-book-against-gay-marriage/news-story/bb6fe0c10a440aba4b51e6e9dc41532f

The Debate is over.

01:11pm 23/09/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38517 posts
I can only assume the irony of Bolt whining about a publisher choosing to exercise a right of freedom of speech is completely lost on Bolt and his supporters when it happens to be about gay marriage
07:12pm 23/09/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7493 posts
of course gays should be able to experience divorce as well, it's only fair
07:38pm 23/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4507 posts
non-story, just get someone else to print it

better yet do it yourself at officeworks I think there's a price break at 50 copies
09:43pm 24/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12385 posts
Trump is destroying Clinton and its only been 15 mins
She looks like a pretentious schoolgirl debating the Headmaster

uh oh hes started on her emails...
11:34am 27/09/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1028 posts
hahaha, Trump destroying Clinton?

I despise them both but come on... the only person Trump destroyed was himself.
01:05pm 27/09/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1916 posts

oooooh i can feel the bern

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/780577539458826240

Bernie Sanders ‏@BernieSanders 2 hours ago If Trump is concerned about companies going abroad maybe he should move his plants out of Bangladesh where workers are paid 30 cents an hour


01:33pm 27/09/16 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1669 posts
Early Polls Show Hillary Won First Debate. Convincingly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0Gamcd4p8
09:46pm 28/09/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21024 posts
Trump is destroying Clinton and its only been 15 mins


pretty much everything i have seen or read has said the opposite

but OK facey :)

they aren't even sure if trump will agree to another debate
12:58pm 29/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2081 posts
I stopped watching after the 30 minute mark. Hillary crushed it IMHO, but I don't know what that means in the current context.

117 policy contradictions in 20 policy areas should be a show stopper. But somehow trump carries on.
04:51pm 29/09/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7494 posts
gg Donald
06:37pm 29/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12390 posts
Rulez... CNN Clinton News Network rig their polls
That poll came from a Q&A styled audience where 26 % were Republicans 41% were Democrats and the rest "undecided"
Im pretty sure all of those were Democrats in disguise.

http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/270916poll2.jpg

Its hilarious how distorted the Media is on Trump even here in Australia.
Trump holds events that attract thousands of people HUUUUGE events
Clinton cant get 100 people to turn up to her events.
some are cancelled "coz she is ill" but its really because local Democrats wont turn up. The big sell on Clinton is failing.

Democrats wont turn up to vote for that horrible woman
the opposite is happening for Trump

http://i.imgur.com/TFGeHaJ.jpg






06:43pm 29/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4508 posts
hillary did a serviceable job in the debate, as usual trump hemmed and hawed and gave a firehose of bulls*** non-answers that sounded like a fever dream

And I think Secretary Clinton and myself would agree very much, when you look at what ISIS is doing with the Internet, they're beating us at our own game. ISIS. So we have to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is -- it is a huge problem. I have a son.

He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester, and certainly cyber is one of them.


of course he did nothing to put the trucker hat vote in jeopardy but there are plenty of Americans still on the fence, and Hilldog will get a modest bounce from the debate - but then there's bound to be an October surprise coming up
07:43pm 29/09/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3077 posts
Trump literally makes no sense at all at best, while continuously contradicting and lying at worst, this is even more astonishingly clear when you read his transcripts like the one Insom posted, it boggles the mind.
08:09pm 29/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23368 posts
he didnt delete 30,000 government emails stored on a private server, so he's got that going for him.
09:58pm 29/09/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4509 posts
he never had the chance
10:35am 30/09/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12391 posts
Shouldnt Wyatt Roy be facing jail for travelling to a War Zone ?
I know its illegal to go to Syria but NW Iraq is ISIS controlled.

I see hes also wearing a beard, wuts doin' with that ?
The first thing liberated victims of the Saudi Arabia sponsored ISIS do is shave off their beards.

12:54pm 30/09/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23369 posts
He is a foreign fighter.
12:58pm 30/09/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2082 posts
he didnt delete 30,000 government emails stored on a private server, so he's got that going for him.


Literally because he has never held public office before. Having a private server with a trump sticker on the side of it is totally the kind of thing he'd do.
08:22am 01/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7495 posts
When you think about the absurdity of this circus you realize how far 'merica has declined
08:42am 01/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7496 posts
Captain Backflip. Malcolm really is the right wing Liberals b****.

09:32am 01/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12392 posts

It is somewhat a load of ironing that Global Warming is blamed for the Storm that destroyed the future of Renewable Energy in this Country.


11:34pm 01/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38520 posts
It is somewhat a load of ironing that Global Warming is blamed for the Storm that destroyed the future of Renewable Energy in this Country.
haha I know right! "This is your future with reneweables people!@!#"

I thought this ABC article was particularly terribad.

I haven't read too much about it but it seems like a good rebuttal would be that even more renewables would help lead to an even more robust and decentralised grid. It sounds like the bulk of the problem was power lines going down in the storm (as usual).

Having solar and some batteries would make a staggering difference
01:05am 02/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4510 posts
article seems to conflate South Australia's price volatility with the event that happened on Wednesday

It is important to note that the Australian Energy Market Operator says the damage to the system was so catastrophic that it would have shut down no matter what the energy mix was in South Australia yesterday.

and there it is
10:43am 02/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38524 posts
Yeh, there was another followup article somewhere on the ABC (can't find it now unfortunately) basically highlighting that more renewables will actually lead to a more resilient distributed grid.

One thing interesting in that first article though was apparently the wind turbines don't work when it's too windy! I didn't know that. Anyone know what the deal is there?
09:27pm 02/10/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25504 posts
Search for 'wind turbine collapse' on youtube.
09:45pm 02/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12394 posts
Trog earlier this year when SA ran out of Electricity the Wind Turbines were drawing more power than they were producing.

Wind turbines in South Australia were using more power than they generated during the state’s electricity crisis, which has prompted major businesses to threaten shutdowns and smaller firms to consider moving interstate.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/business-blows-up-as-turbines-suck-more-power-than-they-generate/news-story/76f0fdb110c998fe959bfb343c1d370a

no wonder Bolt makes fun of this stuff.

02:49am 03/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2083 posts
I didn't know that. Anyone know what the deal is there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o

Reads like a combination of things, but the tl;dr version I think is that the fins can only take so much mechanical stress and spinning super fast can push them beyond their limit and they just fall apart.

So they all have breaks in them to prevent that happening. *edit* or they rotate them so the wind can't push them to dangerous speeds.
08:52pm 03/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38526 posts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o

Reads like a combination of things, but the tl;dr version I think is that the fins can only take so much mechanical stress and spinning super fast can push them beyond their limit and they just fall apart.

So they all have breaks in them to prevent that happening. *edit* or they rotate them so the wind can't push them to dangerous speeds.
Right, I guess that makes sense. I know f*** all about mechanical engineering but I guess I imagined they'd have gears or something that would allow them to simply increase and generate even more power in huge winds.

Trog earlier this year when SA ran out of Electricity the Wind Turbines were drawing more power than they were producing.
That article is a bit light on details. "While all wind farms in South Australia were producing about 189.72MW between 6am and 7am, by early afternoon the energy generation was in deficit as the turbines consumed more power than they created. By 2.20pm, energy generation by all wind farms was minus-2 MW." What happened after 2.20pm?! I'm no mathematician but even if it was running at -2MW for the next 24 hours (which seems unlikely) they'd still have a massive energy surplus.
09:30pm 05/10/16 Permalink
taggs
6454 posts
What happened after 2.20pm?! I'm no mathematician but even if it was running at -2MW for the next 24 hours (which seems unlikely) they'd still have a massive energy surplus.


That's not really how it works with electricity generation and distribution. Most transmission and distribution grids have veey little or no storage capacity because it's quite expensive. So having a surplus in one period doesn't really carry forward. So losing the generation from those wind farms without a seperate source to make up the lost supply is a material shock to the system.
09:19am 06/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1917 posts

What real leadership looks like.

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/782993862038085632

Remember when we priced pollution and emissions went down?

Don't worry though guys if we give money to polluters they will surely clean up their acts.


09:26am 06/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12399 posts
I was reading about the hipster Solar deal for the Sunshine Coast Council.
Jobs jobs jobs Green Jobs.
For China and Germany

Solar panels built in China
About 57,000 solar panels will be installed in the $48.5 million solar plant.

The frames to hold the solar panels were built in Germany.

Australia looks like a big dummy again.
Almost infinite reserves of Coal and Gas and we buy clunky crap from foreign countries that will deliver power if its not cloudy for a few hours a day.

$50 million + higher Electricity Bills + Rates increases
What a laff

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/sunshine-to-save-council-power-bill-as-485m-solar-plant-under-way-20161005-grvgra.html


01:58pm 06/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4511 posts
somewhat interestingly, if you look at the energy demand graph for South Australia you'll notice the demand in the middle of the day actually dips below that of about 4am in the morning, when usage is at its lowest - that's solar for you

of course the ideal would be renewables that can provide consistent load (tidal power?)
07:08pm 06/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38527 posts
I was reading about the hipster Solar deal for the Sunshine Coast Council.
You missed the best part - they built it in a flood plain?!


That's not really how it works with electricity generation and distribution. Most transmission and distribution grids have veey little or no storage capacity because it's quite expensive. So having a surplus in one period doesn't really carry forward. So losing the generation from those wind farms without a seperate source to make up the lost supply is a material shock to the system.
Actually one of the very very few things I know [an extremely tiny bit] about economics is about power generation & distribution (one of my best mates is an economist who used to work in precisely that industry in Australia!) But most renewables aren't really used for baseload generation so I don't know if I see this as a big problem. (Maybe it is in SA because they're over-dependent on renewables but that doesn't seeeeeem to be the case from what I've read.) So I'm talking really just from a TCO point of view - it just seems like complaining that during the night solar cells produce no power so therefore they're worthless.
08:01pm 06/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2084 posts
I know f*** all about mechanical engineering but I guess I imagined they'd have gears or something that would allow them to simply increase and generate even more power in huge winds.


They do, that video has a reddit about it somewhere, and it was gearbox failure that actually was the root cause, it actually wasn't particularly high windspeeds. But even with a gearbox there is going to be an upper limit. SA had some pretty big winds go through.

I'm hardly an expert on mechanical engineering, but I did used to work for a transmission design consultancy. While I was there a storm in QLD knocked out something similar up near moura. There were gusts recorded about 180km/h in a microcell or somesuch.

The point is blowing over 275kV transmission lines is serious wind, and I'd be surprised if wind turbines are designed to produce at those conditions.

The report is interesting. It doesn't say wind power was the cause but it does seem to suggest that such a high dependency on it delayed re-connection. But it also said that definitive cause was yet to be determined.

It's all speculation until the report is finalised.
08:55pm 06/10/16 Permalink
taggs
6455 posts
~40% of statewide generation ain't nothin'.

That's why SA imports a decent chunk of baseload from Vic and why when the connector goes down it's typically not good news for SA (price spikes and/or systemic issues).

What's TCO? Agree there are some very dumb arguments against renewables.
12:38pm 07/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23370 posts
~40% of statewide generation ain't nothin'.

That's why SA imports a decent chunk of baseload from Vic and why when the connector goes down it's typically not good news for SA (price spikes and/or systemic issues).

What's TCO? Agree there are some very dumb arguments against renewables.


So SA is renewable friendly because they import coal fired electricity from other states leaving their citizens exposed when the renewables fail.... Smh.
01:06pm 07/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12400 posts
Slaps what does it cost ?
Still relies on non-cloudy days
Where does the Electricity come from then ? = Blackouts

*Trigger Warning*

Households are exposed to a $41 billion capital cost for state government promises to embrace renewable energy, according to new federal analysis... The Queensland and Victorian governments would need to build the equivalent of 4800 wind turbines to meet their renewable energy targets under the scenario, which contradicts state claims the extra cost would amount to only “cents per week” for consumers.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/renewable-madness-will-cost-us-41bn/news-story/668d61d0b0a7b461cf09bd0cd04dd290

$500 million to build a 2nd Interconnector to SA
Who is going to pay for that ?
just to keep the lights on in SA
How are we going to keep the lights on in QLD with our Renewable targets ?

Everybody is gonna build interconnectors ?
Where will the Electricity come from ?

Can you imagine the next Election campaign ?
Who do you Trust to keep the lights on ?

Vote Labor to Stop The Lights.
01:39pm 07/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7499 posts
Slaps what does it cost ?
Still relies on non-cloudy days
Where does the Electricity come from then ? = Blackouts


Luv ya Facey

1. Cost = Probably a lot - but it's much better than a bunch of intermittent solar farms and wind farms. If you read the link it is a energy "STORAGE" system.

2. Relies on non-cloudy days: Yes, but as said before .. energy "STORAGE" system.

3. Electricity comes for free from the sun and wind and is stored in the ... you guessed it ... energy "STORAGE" system.


Are you moonlighting for the coal industry?
06:19pm 07/10/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25509 posts
Nah he's just dumb.
10:11pm 07/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12403 posts
How bout Rudd ?
a Tribe in a far away land heard the call
a great Spirit needed their help
The Spirit of Narcissism
So they beat their Drums
and the sound was heard everywhere
Make Kevin Dudd Sec Gen of the UN

Zulus ?
Yes he did.







12:29am 09/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7504 posts
11:09am 09/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23376 posts
deniro used to be cool, now his movie roles belong on /cringe/

bg deniro
11:26am 09/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7505 posts
He's right about Trump though... the whole thing is a farce... you couldn't make this s*** up
11:49am 09/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4513 posts
republicans are disendorsing Trump in droves over those lewd comments secretly recorded a decade ago

really guys? the last straw is this?

whatever, he's toast, Hilldog's only real threat now is if Trump steps down in favour of Mike Pence (unlikely) or there is a widespread campaign to "write in" Pence (extremely unlikely), or Wikileaks reveals Hillary did 9/11
07:28pm 09/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12405 posts
Media says Trump cant win #23

Trump said some lewd/crude/degrading comments ten years ago who cares ?
Hillarys Husband actually cheated on her in the Oval Office and with countless other women so Trumps comments cant really bother her. She enables that kind of behaviour from her predator husband.

This Debate should be hosted by Jerry Springer and include surprise guests from both their pasts.

hey everyone lets go snooping in DeNiros past
Robert De Niro threatened his on-off lover in bid to force her to abort his secret 'daughter' during his cocaine-fuelled 1980s wild years - and his 'method acting' inspired John Belushi to inject the drugs which killed him Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2810986/Robert-Niro-threatened-lover-bid-force-abort-secret-daughter-cocaine-fuelled-1980s-wild-years-method-acting-inspired-John-Belushi-inject-drugs-killed-him.html#ixzz4MZvp8WlZ Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


just another dumb hollywood Liberal hypocrite.
08:28pm 09/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23377 posts
yeah but de niro is saying words like from the lines in his cool movies, not his s*** movies. "he's a punk, a bozo."

I am enjoying this death match. flame on.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/10/01/20161008_bumper.jpg
09:25pm 09/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4515 posts
The Heimlich Maneuver from Barny Frank.

yeah because Barney Frank is gay... hur hur hur amirite????
09:55pm 09/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2089 posts
and his 'method acting' inspired John Belushi to inject the drugs which killed him Read more:


Oh yeah cause thats a thing. next you'll be saying kids who play video games kill people.
09:57pm 09/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7506 posts
10:32pm 09/10/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25510 posts
Hey guys, check out what this guy who puts wordy bumper stickers on the back of his pick up truck has to say.
11:16pm 09/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1918 posts
lols faceman on damage control.
07:07am 10/10/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40311 posts
baird backflip on doggies in nsw? disappointing.
08:22am 10/10/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16519 posts
Trump said some lewd/crude/degrading comments ten years ago who cares ?

Evangelical Christians, AKA half the GOP base.

Case in point: of all people, Glen Beck has disendorsed the Donald, If the consequence of standing against Trump and for principles is indeed the election of Hillary Clinton, so be it
09:48am 10/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1919 posts

baird backflip on doggies in nsw? disappointing.


That sucks, it would have been nice to have Wentworth park turned into a public space.

Oh yeah and also no more mass dog graves.
http://www.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/greyhound-owner-left-wondering-what-to-do-with-mass-grave-he-dug-last-week/

Casino mike has used up all his political capital.

Make sydney late again:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-09/lockout-laws-rally-sydney-130am/7916524?WT.ac=localnews_sydney
02:37pm 10/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23378 posts
the US debate was quite measured and interesting. Can't wait for the next one. I hope it gets juicier.
02:41pm 10/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12407 posts
I didnt think Trump could salvage it but after a very low key start he nailed the Witch. He was much better this time and targeted all of her weak points.

The look on her face when he was talking about her laughing about how she got that pedophile off - she had a blank look. Same with the talk about her husband.
She didnt even get emotional.

That is one cold Woman.

LMFAO he paraded the Clinton victims before the Roast, i mean Debate.
This is the best US Election ever.


07:51pm 10/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7507 posts
This is the best US Election ever.


You are a worry facey
08:28pm 10/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4516 posts
The look on her face when he was talking about her laughing about how she got that pedophile off - she had a blank look.

because it's a load of crap
Same with the talk about her husband.

probably best not to get worked up about it - the election is now hers to lose but she needs to stay on message and let Trump get these kinds of attacks over quickly
10:19pm 10/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12408 posts
This moment is somewhat like when the greens turned down Kevin-0-Tarzans ETS.
Whilst people mostly support it I dont think many people are going to spend their Vote on Gay Marriage largely because we are going to sick of hearing about it non-stop now til at least the next Election.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/32018286.jpg




12:16am 12/10/16 Permalink
funky
Canada
1901 posts
lol at faceman, because she didn't rise to bait she is 'cold'. guarantee if she had allowed herself to be trolled, she would have been classified as 'shrill' or 'crazy' or 'over-emotional' or something else like that.
07:37am 12/10/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9318 posts
You know what bothers me more about the US election than some of things we know about Trump? That he'll still get somewhere around 45% of the popular vote. There are still well over 45 million americans who will vote for this giant douche.

Turd Sandwich 2016!
09:33am 12/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2090 posts
Yeah but he is running as a republican. And its not like Hillary, whom I would support if I could vote and have from the outset, doesn't have serious flaws.

There isn't really anyone else to vote for. The third candidate doesn't appear to know much about the issues facing america so who are you left with?

The other thing that it is misleading that 43% of the vote, is less, often substantially so, than 43% of the population because voting is voluntary.
10:44am 12/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12411 posts
The War on Masculinity ?




02:12pm 12/10/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21042 posts
i saw that trump is going so well that apparently republican lawyers were looking for ways to have him replaced

lols
02:34pm 12/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12412 posts



Lizards have musty kind of smell, not like sulfur.
Just sayin'




last edited by FaceMan at 12:54:46 13/Oct/16
12:51pm 13/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1921 posts
01:17pm 13/10/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9320 posts
i saw that trump is going so well that apparently republican lawyers were looking for ways to have him replaced

lols


I would just love it if a US Senator could explain to us all how they see that a first-past-the-post system results in a candidate who would do a better job for the country.

Let me guess: The people can't be trusted to decide for themselves?
03:08pm 13/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4843 posts
10:00am 15/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2092 posts
He has a point about the greens. They love a good moral grandstand.
11:48am 15/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7510 posts
The Greens have gone feral ... real shame
01:14am 16/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12413 posts
Hillary is taking Debate Enhancing Drugs and should be Drug tested.

Trump addressed a rally in New Hampshire, seemingly basing his belief that Clinton had taken drugs on nothing more than his belief she was “energetic” at the start of their second debate and downbeat at its conclusion. “I don’t know what is going on with her,” the 70-year-old billionaire said as he unleashed his attack.

“We’re like athletes. They make them take a drug test. I think we should take a drug test prior to the debate. I think we should — why don’t we do that?” “At the beginning of her last debate she was all pumped up at the beginning and at the end if was, ‘Huh, take me down.’ She could barely reach her car. So I think we should take a drug test. Anyway, I’m willing to do it.”


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/trumps-latest-tailspin-we-should-take-a-drug-test-before-debate/news-story/ec5ae1bfd2af3ff9292ccf80caea26a3

https://grrrgraphics.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/hillary_sick_ben_garrison.jpg?w=640&h=504
01:04pm 16/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4517 posts
clearly shopped, where's the illuminati triangle?
02:40pm 16/10/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1030 posts
By the same logic Trump was on drugs in the first debate.

He started off on some sort of anti-psychotic medicine but it lost effect about 15 minutes into the debate.
03:19pm 16/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4844 posts
06:33pm 16/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7511 posts
12:57am 17/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12414 posts
Newspoll surveys since the July 2 federal election reveal support for One Nation in lower house seats has climbed to six per cent, up from 1.3 per cent on polling day. In Queensland the minor party is attracting 10 per cent of voters, up from 5.5 per cent in July. In NSW and Western Australia, One Nation's support is six per cent. Read more at


http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/10/17/06/23/one-nation-support-soars-since-election#WksdROg2floXdJ6y.99

A One Nation Tsunami is coming
Mr Magoo is wrecking Conservative Politics.
Right on cue, Senator Hanson upped the ante on the Turnbull government demanding the immediate family of convicted terrorists be stripped of their citizenship booted out of Australia.

"I don't want them here," she told the Seven Network on Monday.


If the Coaliton were way ahead of Labor they could absorb the anger on Islam but when they are falling further behind Labor, somethings gotta give.

Bonus Comment:
Theres some bad MDMA doing the rounds.
The solution is fairly simple.
Set up Pill testing at Schoolies otherwise teens are going to overdose or worse.



12:51pm 17/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1924 posts

Holy f***, exiling the whole family, literally 1800s punishment. That is f*****g amazing. Are public floggings next?

One Nation to provide free cabbage for patriots to throw at suspects before the trial in the town square.

Mike Baird has a better solution facey.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-premier-mike-baird-kills-off-stereosonic-pill-testing-20160301-gn81wz.html

"Don't do it. That is the best form of safety you can do. Don't take the pills and you'll be fine."


01:19pm 17/10/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21046 posts
Theres some bad MDMA doing the rounds.
The solution is fairly simple.
Set up Pill testing at Schoolies otherwise teens are going to overdose or worse.


do you know if it is MDMA or dingas or whatever?

no one seems to be able to say what it actually is

it sounds like whatever it is, is laced with some kind of 2C or something. it sounds like whatever it is is bring on halucinations and people are losing their s***. probably because they aren't expecting it (and are soft)
01:30pm 17/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23379 posts
sounds like bath salts from the severe hallucinations. (they may think they are getting ice)
01:33pm 17/10/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21048 posts
you are correct infi it is bath salts

but don't let that stop a good faceman s***fest
02:03pm 17/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7512 posts
Are the mdma/ice/bat salts halal certified?

** blatant faceman bait **
02:25pm 17/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4845 posts
If only we were like The Netherlands and had drug safety videos on the ABC.

Conservatives ruin all the fun.

06:24pm 17/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12416 posts
Clinton = 47 %
Trump = 43 %
Washington Post/ABC Poll

Like i said, the Public dont care.
The Medias screams and shrills of the end of Trump are Wrong again LOL
Celebrities = Public dont care what they think either
This is gonna be another Brexit

There is a story coming on Clintons sexuality Friday according to Matt Drudge



07:41pm 17/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4518 posts
that would be a great twofer, first female and first lesbian in the white house
09:07pm 17/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7513 posts
No muff too tough for Hillary
09:25pm 17/10/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9321 posts
If they're only on a visa, or permenant residents, and the others are only eligible to be here on account of the visa of another person, then sure that could make sense.

But stripping the citizenship of someone who is in themselves independently eligible?

Sigh. This woman.
11:49am 18/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12417 posts
Adelaides Festival of (Far Left) Dangerous Ideas

But, strangely, in the list of 71 speakers there is not one conservative. No right wingers, no libertarians, not even a token Liberal. Nothing at all. Every single speaker in the three-day line-up is a leftie. Is it the Festival of Ideas or the Festival of Groupthink? For heaven’s sake, even the Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney last month managed to get Andrew Bolt, even if they wanted to hold him up as some kind of evil villain.


http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/opinion/caleb-bond-rightwingers-snubbed-as-speakers-at-adelaide-festival-of-ideas-with-not-one-conservative-on-the-agenda/news-story/b1e5229f10371fc19b8125c993e37565

Why would anyone bother going ?
you could just watch ABC/24 and get the same thing for Free, funded by Taxpayers
Its not a Festival of Dangerous Ideas its an Aussie Communist Conference

wait...
word just in of a special guest appearance by a member of the Liberal Party

http://stopturnbull.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/chairman_mal_thumb.jpg


04:18pm 18/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2093 posts
Is it the Festival of Ideas or the Festival of Groupthink?


Groupthink and has been for years. You can tell because the most dangerous thing anyone ever says is that Marxism is a good idea. That person isn't a revolutionary thinker. They have a learning disability.

With that said I'm getting mixed signals from you Facey. Is Turnbull an evil Goldman Sachs shyster or mao reborn?
08:05pm 18/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12419 posts
Are you asking what Turnbull stands for ?
Thats what the Liberal Party faithful would like to know.
What does he stand for ?
What does he fight for ?
What has he accomplished ?
What are his plans for Australia ?
Hes Mr Magoo

He had to whore himself to so many Factional Pimps that hes paralyzed to do anything. I cant listen to him anymore, I change channel if I see him.

One Nation is going to gobble up more and more Right Wing votes and I predict some Liberals will join One Nation especially in QLD and WA.

Remember when I said The Adults were taking over...
I misspoke.
08:34pm 18/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2094 posts
I was rather clearly not asking that. I feel the question was clearly demarcated by the use of the "question mark".

As far as I can see Turnbull stands for a multicultural Australia with some free-marketeering thrown in and a general small l liberal attitude. Frankly it is refreshing to have a polly STFU about what they stand for.
09:07pm 18/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23380 posts
yeah principles in politics? Whats the point...
09:19pm 18/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4846 posts
Some of the smartest people i know are Socialists, or support Marxism.. Yet some of the stupidest i know support the opposite ideology. One nation voters, or Donald trump supporters.
I have yet to meet an intelligent One nation voter.


You can tell because the most dangerous thing anyone ever says is that Marxism is a good idea. That person isn't a revolutionary thinker. They have a learning disability.


Then why are you watching Zizek videos? Einstein surely had a learning disability too. Or charlie chaplain.
09:43pm 18/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2095 posts
read any marx yet vash?
10:21pm 18/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2096 posts
And infi there is a laaarge gap between the vast majority of politicians professed principles and the ones they live by.
10:23pm 18/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38539 posts
yeah principles in politics? Whats the point...
deeds > words
11:17pm 18/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4519 posts
well he did promise a traditional cabinet government and an end to captain's calls, although he probably didn't realise just how true that would be

thanks to his DD election brain fart, he's about a captain's call away from pissing off the Nationals and losing his majority, and ironically even more fringe party nutters in the Senate than before
12:49am 19/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12420 posts
He sold out on the issues he was undermining Abbott on.
Some of the smartest people i know are Socialists, or support Marxism..


The Debate is over.







12:50am 19/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4847 posts
He sold out on the issues he was undermining Abbott on.


The Debate is over.










i could show you certain right wing politicans saying NASA played with climate data & it's a U.N conspiracy... but you wouldn't believe that, would you Faceman?
The debate is over when evidence is presented, and barking about conspiracies will get you nowhere.

Left wing politics is all about evidence, scientific based policy. Right wing politics is entirely emotional & "i feel this is bad" in their guts. Or, will this make me more money? Not the kind of people you want in Government.
01:18am 19/10/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25512 posts
Right wing politics is entirely emotional & "i feel this is bad" in their guts. Or, will this make me more money? Not the kind of people you want in Government.
This is without a doubt true for some of the more vocal right-wing pundits on this board. But you forgot 'does it cause pain and unhappiness to people I feel are beneath me'.
04:10am 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2097 posts
Left wing politics is all about evidence, scientific based policy.


Oh my my word shut the f*** up. It just isn't. Leaving aside the number of lefties such as yourself who *still* think marxism might be a good idea (which in itself is categorical proof left wing politics has the same relationship with evidence as right wing), The Anti-vax and general natural medicine woo is allllll Left wing.

The big antivax towns all elect greens or labor. Or the greens scare campaign about CSG when Di Natalie set a methane seep on fire on the Condamine. Fire on water isn't natural, oh well how "evidenced" based of you senator.

That statement betrays nothing but moral tribalism. Which isn't moral.
07:20am 19/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23381 posts
deeds > words


EXACTLY. Talk is cheap, show me the money. I want conviction politicians who do what they say they were gonna do, and don't pander to minorities or the media spin cycle.
09:34am 19/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23382 posts
maybe he should persuade them or entice them. you have to have some goodwill to be able to demand something.
09:49am 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2099 posts
He got the savings. But more importantly seems to me demanding is inline with conviction.
10:01am 19/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23383 posts
He got the savings. But more importantly seems to me demanding is inline with conviction.


He got savings. I don't know if it's correct to call them "the savings". ALP have already agreed to many savings measures but instead of stamping his foot in the media (funnily enough just like Kevin used to do) he needs to persist convincing.

The Senate can't be strong-armed so I don't know who he thinks he is impressing.
10:11am 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2100 posts
They were spending measures that were on the books and he got them off.

Seems to me it is entirely appropriate to go to the press if Labor is opposing measures they previously supported. They can't make a resonable claim to "goodwill"

He also found $6B or so from the super changes. Which was negotiated.

Maybe he should try the tactics from the 2014 budget, that went swimmingly.
10:30am 19/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23384 posts
In what world does any rational individual believe they can say "do what I ask cos I said so" actually work? It is the hallmark sign of a narcissist.

Howard, the Man of Steel, always held quiet private meetings with people he needed to convince. He never embarrassed or bullied them in public. This is crisis negotiating 101.

Labor already passed the omnibus bill but these are not measures they have previously said they support.
10:41am 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2101 posts
Labor already passed the omnibus bill but these are not measures they have previously said they support.


They did though infi. Labor indicated support for about 6b of saving most of which were in the omnibus bill. That was the point of it.

Hence the time for closed door negotiation was over.

Anyway you are confusing me now.

Do you want someone who is a good negotiator or someone who has conviction and will do what they say they will do

because I don't see a significant difference between
I want conviction politicians who do what they say they were gonna do

and this
do what I ask cos I said so


Maybe it is in eyebrows.
11:02am 19/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23385 posts
Conviction is in the message sent to the voters. Malcolm had no message - he simply wanted the job. Literally, Malcolm's message for re-election was nothing. Internally, the campaign was roundly criticised for being aloof and irrelevant.

(Un)Luckily the one conviction issue keeping Malcolm honest at the moment is done so much to his chagrin - the gay marriage plebiscite. Whether you agree or not the Coalition took that policy to the election and are now being held to account by Conservative coalition members and church groups. Malcolm must be churning inside that his perceived conviction is repugnant to his own progressive nature haha.

The ultimate deal making requires flexibility, and obviously comes down to the ability to deliver a slightly diluted outcome or corrupted outcome. Refer John Howard - GST, Workplace Relations Act, Telstra, Anti-terror. When negotiating from a position of political power the ability to impose a more faithful policy is strengthened - border security is a good example. The politician with no conviction e.g. Kevin Rudd and climate change, mining tax is about as effective as a fart in the breeze.

Consistent convictions assist in communicating vision, and then ultimately in securing policy wins.
11:17am 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2102 posts
Ok sure but would consider abbott to be a conviction politician? because he had a notable scarcity on policy wins, and indeed his convictions seemed to lead him directly into dramatic policy blunders Knighthoods for sitting royals for example.

I think the criticism that someone just wants the job needs to be better fleshed out because there is no one in the game who wouldn't want it. My issue from the campaign was not the lack of a message I got the bizarre notion that they were focused on jobs and growth from somewhere. The issue was the inability to have a signature policy that would deliver the slogan, however there is a live question as to that even being possible in a complex modern economy.

Other than scrap the tax Abbott was always rather light on economic policy detail, and oppositions have been comically poor for detail as a matter of course since 1993, so it is a criticism that applies fairly broadly.

If Gillard wasn't so reviled, rightly or wrongly, do you think Abbott's 2013 platform would have won? Because I doubt it.
11:51am 19/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4848 posts



Oh my my word shut the f*** up. It just isn't. Leaving aside the number of lefties such as yourself who *still* think marxism might be a good idea (which in itself is categorical proof left wing politics has the same relationship with evidence as right wing), The Anti-vax and general natural medicine woo is allllll Left wing.

The big antivax towns all elect greens or labor. Or the greens scare campaign about CSG when Di Natalie set a methane seep on fire on the Condamine. Fire on water isn't natural, oh well how "evidenced" based of you senator.

That statement betrays nothing but moral tribalism. Which isn't moral.



The anti science crazies come from both sides of politics.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/conservatives_and_liberals_hold_anti_science_views_anti_vaxxers_are_a_bipartisan.html

At least though, on the left side, you generally see a much higher concentration of pro science policy.
On the right it's more about religious influence, and trickle down economics. Anti climate change. All that fun stupid stuff.
08:11pm 19/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2103 posts
That article is based for america and is focused exclusively on anti-vax. If you open it up to general natural medicine bulls*** I'll bet you it changes.

In australia for example the capital of all that nonsense is Byron and the Surrounding area. Are you really going to tell me Byron a hotbed of mercenary capitalism?

At least though, on the left side, you generally see a much higher concentration of pro science policy.

That is utterly unsubstantiated.

I take you've read as much about trickle down economics as you have Marx.
07:27am 20/10/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9323 posts
Pete, that was about the dumbest post I expect to read today. And it's not even 10am. And I haven't checked Reddit yet.
09:57am 20/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2104 posts
On what grounds Raven?

The fact that Richmond has the lowest Vaccination rate of any electorate in Australia and is overwhelming left leaning?
10:20am 20/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1926 posts

The fact that Richmond has the lowest Vaccination rate of any electorate in Australia and is overwhelming left leaning?


Turns out idiots are everywhere.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/rich-suburbs-have-low-immunisation-rates-research-shows-20140326-35iy3.html

Only about 80 per cent of five-year-old children in suburbs such as Manly, Paddington and Annandale are fully immunised against contagious diseases


Manly is Tonez seat and Paddington is Turnbulls. Annandale is Allbo I think.
11:50am 20/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12421 posts
Inquisitor Triggs needs to resign and join the greens or become an ABC Journo

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ca70dcf685f988236ff0386144b6527c?width=650


01:52pm 20/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4849 posts
Here's hoping that $50bn trickle down tax cut is blocked indefinitely.
Haven't conservatives learned yet?

Give tax cuts to small business & low to middle income earners, this will stimulate the economy *far* more.
04:10pm 20/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2105 posts
Manly is Tonez seat and Paddington is Turnbulls. Annandale is Allbo I think.
Mullumbimby is more like 50%.


have a vaccination rate here in Mullumbimby that equals that of the developing country of South Sudan, which is: under 50 per cent of kids aged five are fully vaccinated.
Turns out idiots are everywhere.


Yep, but there are more of them in the Richmond Electorate. They are the gold standard of vaccine denialism. Either way it supports the thesis that the left wing isn't inherently more respectful of science. Which is my claim.

If you want to go and see a real science love in, based on totally rational concerns go take a look at the Greens GMO policy page. To his credit, Di Natalie has since said the safety concerns are unjustified, but he is alone in the greens on that front.


Give tax cuts to small business & low to middle income earners, this will stimulate the economy *far* more.


The current corporate tax cut is structured to deliver to small business first.
06:37pm 20/10/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25513 posts
If you want to go and see a real science love in, based on totally rational concerns go take a look at the Greens GMO policy page.
Not sure if sarcastic but I just read that page and it seems fine to me. What's your problem with it?

I guess 2) is kind of s*****. I am of the belief there is very limited risk if any to human health from GMOs. However there is a real possibility of f*****g with ecosystems in a major way if something were to go wrong.
08:19pm 20/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2106 posts
So aside from the Human Health concerns being more or less baseless:

Living organisms such as plants, animals and micro-organisms are not inventions. Patents on life are unethical and against the public interest.


Patents on life already exist and have since at least the 80's, so if we were going to see some massive ethical fallout from it, I expect we would have seen it by now. But it also betrays they don't know about plant breeders rights, which are effectively the same thing and have existed since the '40s. Here is an interesting article on the benefit of giving people the ability to exert IP rights over life forms in the form of PBR's. the one about terminator technology and saving seed also demonstrates they don't understand agricultural business. Farmers have been breeding and refining plants separately from their crops for at least 150 years. *edit* sorry to make this crystal clear, most farmers don't save seed because of the genetic impact of cross pollination from less productive varieties. Most farmers buy entirely new seed every year because you can guarantee your planting the good stuff. See also Golden Rice. The patent on that specifically allows for it to be given for free to developing countries and to prevent imitators selling snake oil.


The Australian government must prohibit the use of 'terminator' technologies (Gene Use Restriction) that prevent seeds from germinating when planted.


This would be one of the most effective ways to address your concern about bio-diversity. Nobody is denying there are bio-diversity risks associated with GMO's but a blanket ban which is agenda item number one is totally inappropriate. There are horror stories of grossly irresponsible experimentation in mexico from the '90's, but the '90's called they want their risk management concerns back. But also see Farmers saving seed nonsense above.

Scientific evidence produced independently from the developers and proponents of the GMO must be undertaken and form the basis for assessing and licensing of GMOs. GMO assessments must be broad, independent and scientifically robust.


Independent scientific research does get conducted all the time.

Farmers and consumers have a right to grow and consume non-GMO foods.

Given virtually all crops are refined breeds of plants, which entails genetic modification, this is close to nonsensical. But more importantly there is exactly zero risk of GMO crops becoming mandatory.

and finally the enforced labeling only makes sense if you buy into the safety concerns which are bunkum.

All in all the whole document reeks of the naturalistic fallacy. *edit* sorry the appeal to nature fallacy.
08:43pm 20/10/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3087 posts
The anit-GMO movement is almost as nonsensically ridiculous as the anti-vax one. We gotta improve education.
01:27am 21/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4853 posts
Unfortunately, when it comes to politics, education doesnt seem to have an impact.
When people deny the overwhelming evidence presented on climate change, and the benefits of renewable energy, and then are fast to blame a state-wide blackout on renewables, shows that there are deeper problems than education.
GMO & vaccinations are a problem, but when you're facing a global ecological travesty that is Climate change, and the barking from the right deny it, you have to wonder the sanity of them.
01:32am 21/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2108 posts
Oh I disagree Vash.

RE Climate change, if it is the immediate impending disaster you say it is, the Greens nuclear policy also becomes difficult to justify. It certainly isn't particularly well supported by science.

As for climate change vs GMO's I'm of the opinion that the GMO situation is the more pressing issue. GMO's can deliver tangible results, and indeed can help mitigate the crop failure associated with climate change, now. The scare mongering around them is dangerous and denies developing nations access to nutrient rich hardy crops baselessly.

Climate change is just important to you, and for what its worth I support the switch to renewables, but GMO and Vaccine denial require refusing science that is at least as well supported as climate science. In fact the science backing up the efficacy of vaccines and GMO I'd wager is better supported than climate change, certainly both allow for practical technology based on accurate predictions.

The point is, as I stated rather clearly, the left's relationship with science is just as troubled as the right's. They just have their own stupid bugbears.
07:15am 21/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1927 posts
The point is, as I stated rather clearly, the left's relationship with science is just as troubled as the right's. They just have their own stupid bugbears.


Why do people in science and tech typically vote labor/greens then??
01:49pm 21/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2109 posts
Where do you take that from?

I know plenty of engineers and doctors who are life time liberal voters.

What ever the reason it isn't for the scientific literacy displayed in their GMO and Nuclear policies.
07:21pm 21/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12423 posts
What Falsifiable Evidence, that Human Co2 Emissions are having a significant effect on Climate/Temperature, convinces you PornoPete ?




07:32pm 21/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1928 posts

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/charts-show-the-political-bias-of-each-profession-2014-11

Engineers you might know are in construction or mining. That would explain a lot.

Even pharma which is all about da moneyyyy is left leaning. Medical researchers are somewhere between that and academia.

How many doctor doctors do you know? Because all the ones I know are left leaning. There's a couple of professors in science I know that are liberal voters but they're not common.
09:10pm 21/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2110 posts
I used to play soccer with 22 (Medical Doctors) of them while I was at uni. I'd say a solid 40% were libs.

Besides which when you exclude academics which clearly includes a lot of non-scientists the graph you showed me gets real centrist. for example Pharma (which is about making life saving drugs which also happen to be valuable) rates 2.8L on a scale of 10.

What ever the case might be the policies are right there for you to look at. a cursory investigation of the science surrounding GMO's blows the greens policy out of the water. Their nuclear rhetoric is equally absurd. Scott Ludlam talks about visiting F**ushima as visiting "the end of the world", where there wasn't a single human casualty mind. And the plant was hit by an earthquake and a tsunami.

If you want to deny left wing politics has a problem with science denial I think you'd need to address those policies rather then show some but not all science and tech industries are left leaning.

faceman I've no interest in discussing climate change with you.
09:40pm 21/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4520 posts
huh

isn't the science denialism, "climate change is absolute crap", fluoride is poison, pollution doesn't matter because jebus is returning in our lifetime, kind of thing squarely in the right wing camp?
10:39pm 21/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4855 posts

Nuclear power has its risks, F**ushima had no deaths because the whole area was evacuated and is now uninhabitable. Thats pretty serious business.
Then you got Chernobyl. Radioactive waste disposal.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-07/di-natale-breaks-greens-policy-on-genetically-modified-crops/7073086

When presented with evidence, it seems the Greens are able to change their position. Unlike the right wingers.


"The concerns are less around human health and much more around the application of the technology when it comes to giving farmers choice, ensuring that farmers are able to produce a non-GM product if they choose, making sure we don't use this technology simply to drive up the use of more herbicides and pesticides, which is not which is not good land management," he said.


Sounds reasonable enough to me. I suppose they'll be updating their policy page soon enough.

Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean its right, in regards to the patents on life thing. If i could be bothered bringing up all the crazy anti science stuff from the right, im sure you'd be inundated.


10:58pm 21/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38546 posts
What ever the case might be the policies are right there for you to look at. a cursory investigation of the science surrounding GMO's blows the greens policy out of the water.
I just read their policy page and it actually seems kinda mild to me. I don't think I'd say it's science-denialism really, almost the opposite. With the exception of principle #2 ("GMOs have not been proven safe to human health.") it all seems to be fairly reasonable and science-based and possibly #8 (mandatory labeling; I don't see this as a big deal one way or the other but we already address food contents & I think more info about the provenance of food in general is good and applicable even to non-GMO food - e.g., free range eggs, etc).

I disagree with them on nuclear but they are taking a principled stand, not a science-denying stand. I find it hard to nitpick on that one because it aligns cleanly with their overall vision of using more renewables which I think is pretty good.

But in general I agree with you that science denialism crosses all sorts of borders. People believe what they want to believe & will leap on any justification, rational or not, to support their viewpoint.
11:21pm 21/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38547 posts
Given virtually all crops are refined breeds of plants, which entails genetic modification, this is close to nonsensical. But more importantly there is exactly zero risk of GMO crops becoming mandatory.
Somewhat related aside: the Hugo-award winning science fiction novel "The Windup Girl" is a scary look at a possible future in which agritech companies have taken over the world and this exact scenario takes place!@#
11:24pm 21/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2111 posts
When presented with evidence, it seems the Greens are able to change their position. Unlike the right wingers.


I want you to go and read my post with both eyes vash. Di Natalie and only Di Natalie believes that.

making sure we don't use this technology simply to drive up the use of more herbicides and pesticides, which is not which is not good land management," he said.


That's retarded. GMOs are designed to use less herbicides and pesticides its one of their best known and strongest selling points. They're are also designed to require less water so you can release more flow back into rivers from irrigation. so even in the adjustment to human health he manages to be wrong.

from the same article
Federal Greens leader Richard Di Natale has partially broken with his party's policy, saying that he does not believe genetically modified crops pose a significant risk to human health.

The Greens oppose the use of genetically modified crops, arguing they pose significant risks to agricultural ecosystems and human health.



The greens operate by consensus decision making so Di Natale saying that doesn't entail a policy change, its been 10 months since he said that s***. If they didn't update it for the election they aren't going to, it's a website not stone tablets. So no the greens haven't changed their position.

Then you got Chernobyl.
Chernobyl is literally the science-deniers wet dream.

Keep in mind you can now grow crops safe for human consumption in F**ushima.

There have been three accidents in the history of nuclear power. And one them involved hitting the plant with an earthquake and tsunami. The risks around nuclear are well understood and well able to be managed as evidence by the fact that getting hit by multiple natural disasters didn't kill anyone.

If i could be bothered bringing up all the crazy anti science stuff from the right, im sure you'd be inundated.

Probably and it wouldn't undermine my point.

I don't think I'd say it's science-denialism really, almost the opposite


I linked to over 600 studies verifying bio-diversity risk management and human safety risks.

Scientific evidence produced independently from the developers and proponents of the GMO must be undertaken and form the basis for assessing and licensing of GMOs. GMO assessments must be broad, independent and scientifically robust.


I don't really understand how you could call that principle anything other than science denial. When they get to 700 will it count?

As I said in my post it is unserious to bleat about the bio-diversity risk and then outlaw terminator technology which was developed specifically to address the issue. and I would say science denying. You can't say there is a bio-diversity risk and then outlaw the scientific solution to it.

and keep in mind that on the strength of their principles (uniformed by the science) their solution is a total ban on GMO crops and to rip up existing crops until there is enough science, the 600 studies I linked to must not count.

A moratorium on the release of GMOs into the environment until there is an adequate scientific understanding of their long term impact on the environment, human and animal health. This includes the removal as far as possible of all GMOs from the Australian environment and food supply while the moratorium is in place.


I don't have a huge issue with the labeling either, but lets not mince words. They want it because they want people to be (mis)informed of the risks.

nuclear but they are taking a principled stand, not a science-denying stand.


a Principled stand that ignores the science is a principled science-denying stand. Christians have a principled stand on the miracles of Jesus trog.
The world should be free of nuclear weapons and the nuclear fuel chain.


That's the science denying bit. Reactors have a multitude of peaceful purposes and we can't have them without the fuel chain. As stated above the risks around storing Nuclear waste are well understood and absolutely capable of management. And lets not also forget that the vast majority of nuclear medicine doses are produced in reactors. So unless we plan on giving up nuclear medicine (which isn't going to happen) we are going to be participating in the nuclear fuel chain somewhere.

The use of nuclear weapons, nuclear accidents or attacks on reactors pose unacceptable risk of catastrophic consequences.

You have to deny the ability of engineers to manage those risks in order to hold that as a true statement. There have been three(3) accidents in 15,000 years of combined reactor operation. Again the discussion of weapons is just a straight appeal to emotion. Australia so far as I'm aware has zero intention of acquiring the weapons and so using them is a flat non-sequitur.

There is a strong link between the mining and export of uranium and nuclear weapons proliferation.

That is asserted with out any supporting evidence. The only potential case for this was the deal with India, and have you read anything about India exporting or losing control of weapons or weapons technology? I haven't.

Australia's reliance on the United States nuclear weapons 'umbrella' lends our bases, ports and infrastructure to the US nuclear war fighting apparatus, and is in conflict with our national sovereignty.

That just isn't even relevant. You might as well say nuclear arms, the billion dollar corporations and american imperialism are bad mmkay.

A principled, as distinct from hysterical, nuclear policy would have to draw a distinction between mining uranium, generating electricity and nuclear weapons, and not mention foreign policy at all. Mixing them like that is a confused mess and it is either because greens thinking on nuclear is a confused mess or because they are trying the muddy the waters, which is neither scientific nor principled.

Anyway:

But in general I agree with you that science denialism crosses all sorts of borders. People believe what they want to believe & will leap on any justification, rational or not, to support their viewpoint.


We are in perfect agreement here.
10:03am 22/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38548 posts
I don't really understand how you could call that principle anything other than science denial. When they get to 700 will it count?
That principle itself as written is (obviously?) the opposite of science denialism; it is specifcally about making evidence-based policy.

Whether or not they adhere to their principle is a different matter! ditto for the nuclear stuff.

I already said I disagree with their GMO & nuclear stances - probably for the same reasons you do

people take principled science-denying stands all the time for reasons I don't get or agree with (like vegans!) but I can still appreciate their stance and the reasons they want to take it
10:28pm 22/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12426 posts
12:26am 23/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2113 posts
That principle itself as written is (obviously?) the opposite of science denialism; it is specifcally about making evidence-based policy.


It is a corollary of that principle and principles one and two that broad based, scientifically robust research hasn't been undertaken, and that current policy isn't evidence based. They must be denying the existence, robustness or independence of the research I linked to.

people take principled science-denying stands all the time for reasons I don't get or agree with (like vegans!) but I can still appreciate their stance and the reasons they want to take it

I have not stated nor implied anything that that contradicts that statement.

The issue I was addressing was that left wing politics is purely evidenced based or acts as a salve to superstition. I think I have provided ample evidence that isn't the case.

However I would point out that a principled stance on something like nuclear policy which isn't rooted in scientific evidence is almost certainly dangerous. So the idea that some praise should follow from the fact their shambles is a principled shambles strikes me as odd.
09:31am 23/10/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3090 posts
08:32pm 23/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7515 posts
09:36pm 23/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4522 posts
10:13pm 23/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12429 posts
Someones head has to roll for the Trainline debacle.
Not enough drivers ?

didnt they screw something else up a while back delaying it ?
Signals or something.

07:30pm 24/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4857 posts

Fake Twitter Army That Trolls Renewable Energy Linked To Mining Lobby
https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/powerful-toot-army?utm_term=.meVVY6zkM#.cxv27noqv

Good ole Capitalism.
07:33pm 24/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12430 posts
03:02am 25/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23387 posts
Tony rated higher than Malcolm even after eating an onion.
08:55am 25/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1929 posts
People have wised up that it's pretty much the same s***house policies from the Abbott gov, they just put a ribbon on the pig to save the furniture for the last election.
06:26pm 25/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4858 posts
What's hilarious though is conservatives thinking Turnbull is some kind of undercover leftie. I'm not sure who convinced the public that he may have been the answer to the LNP's problems.
But here's hoping Tones comes back and calls an early election so we can get some sane policy going again with Labor & Greens.
07:08pm 25/10/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21057 posts
It would make for some enteraining tv if abbott knifed turnbull back, that would be GOLD jerry

Not as good as watching trump flail around lately claiming the polls are rigged, the election is rigged etc. Preemptively making excuses for his coming destruction in this election
07:36pm 25/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12431 posts
FFS what a bunch of Mr Magoos
The only one doing a decent job is Tony Abbott

seriously wtf has Brandis been doing ?
Barnaby got Hansard rewritten ?
Morrison is taking action on Housing by telling the States to fix it ?
Mr Magoo gets into a fight with Tony Abbott and manages to defeat himself
Sinodidis suggests Abbott might come back

Someone on Q&A attacked Hillary

THE HORROR...
THE HORROR...
THE HORRER...


12:28am 26/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4523 posts
holy crap, have you visited the website on that sign?

unpolished
07:50pm 26/10/16 Permalink
Vash
4859 posts
Hahah that site.
Click link below to view video
Hillary will start WW3


god trump voters are dumb.
07:52pm 26/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1930 posts

hahaha, Gillian Triggs gets an award for doing her job.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/10/27/triggs-honoured-human-rights-work

F*** this gov are useless.

House prices were fine before the election, now scomo says it's the greatest moral challenge of our time.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-24/morrison-calls-for-removal-of-red-tape-to-improve-housing-supply/7958608

He doesn't want to do anything about it except blame the states though.


03:26pm 27/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7516 posts
Emma owns this stooge

09:18pm 27/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1931 posts

At least the entire turnbull family isn't retarded.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-lucy-turnbulls-affordable-housing-plan-for-sydney-20161027-gsbxyd.html

This looks like some good policy. I wonder what pound of flesh developers are going to demand to do the right thing though?

The plans mean that when land is rezoned for higher densities, 5-10 per cent of the extra floor space will be slated for low income housing managed by community providers. The affordable housing targets would apply to land owned both by private property holders and the state government, Fairfax Media has learned.


08:55am 28/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2115 posts
Emma is a bad ass.
09:23am 28/10/16 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9324 posts
Bahaha, Angus Taylor, what a complete f*****g moron.

HOW does this guy buy the s*** he's trying to sell?
10:35am 28/10/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2116 posts
That was about the dumbest post I expect to read today. And it's not even 2pm. And I haven't checked Reddit yet.
01:26pm 28/10/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7517 posts
Ahh now I get it

07:03pm 28/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12433 posts
yep^

< < Trigger Alert > >

Climate Change the #1 concern at The ABC/greens/Labor Alliance ?
Wonder what the rest of the World really thinks about it all ?

Every year the UN runs a poll which surveys people’s greatest concerns across the world. It’s significant because the responses run into the millions and canvas the views of people from all countries, rich and poor.

So guess where ‘climate change’ comes on the global population’s list of priorities ?

Last

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/10/image_thumb100.png

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/10/26/un-poll-puts-climate-change-lowest-global-concerns/

Struggle St cant pay the Power Bills and the rest of the World couldnt care less
Wake Up Australia


07:40pm 28/10/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38549 posts
Climate Change the #1 concern at The ABC/greens/Labor Alliance ?
Wonder what the rest of the World really thinks about it all ?
Asking people what they think is important is different to knowing what is actually important

people didn't give a s*** about leaded gasoline either. this is kind of exactly why it's important to elect wise leaders and not populist a******* (in case we didn't learn that lesson in ww2)
08:10pm 28/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12434 posts
another Email Investigation ?
The FBI Director has rolled on Clinton

have the Elites quit Clinton ?


https://i.imgflip.com/146sfo.jpg






last edited by FaceMan at 01:54:45 30/Oct/16
01:53am 30/10/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1932 posts
Trump is with hildog.

10:53am 30/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12435 posts
KlintoNazis attack a black Homeless Woman who supports Trump







01:08pm 30/10/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4525 posts
I thought her sign telling "motherf*****s" to vote Trump and "f*** Mexico" was completely reasonable
01:53pm 30/10/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23391 posts
sad, they know the end is near.
05:05pm 30/10/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40348 posts
wow, how grossly fat is michael moore.

i cant take any fat people seriously.
06:26pm 30/10/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12440 posts
Wait a minute, are you telling me Labor and The Coalition are going to introduce a Bill that makes traveling to Australia by Boat and claiming Asylum, Illegal ?
But if you travel by Plane and demand Asylum - thats ok ?

Turnbull suffers from Ideological Bi-Polar Syndrome.

03:45pm 01/11/16 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12075 posts
08:22am 02/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1935 posts

Why is the member for warringah off to PNG?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-to-meet-png-leader-peter-oneill-in-latest-foreign-foray-20161102-gsg8ue.html

Normal duties for a backbencher? Probably on the taxpayers dime too.


11:25am 03/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12454 posts
Victory for Freedom of Speech !

One astonishing thing about the disgraceful attempt by a university staffer to sue students under the Racial Discrimination Act is that Gillian Triggs and her Human Rights Commission aided what was clearly a stupid and hopeless case.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/will-the-other-three-students-get-their-5000-back/news-story/147cf8da9a71fd0bd2ae55f9ac30b7cd

Three years, what a joke, what a waste of Taxpayers money.
That disgraceful Woman needs to step down or even better be sacked.
She is an Idiot.

Next on the Freedom Express, defending Bill Leak.

12:46pm 05/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23394 posts
now they need to repeal section 18C to prevent this disgraceful abuse of process.
05:32pm 05/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25527 posts
disgraceful

disgraceful

disgraceful
07:33pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4871 posts
Right wingers are astounding. They are so passionate about protecting their ability to spread their racist rhetoric. This whole Bill leak thing proves that quite well.
He broke the law, pure & simple.

Let's look at the comic again shall we?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/7689326-3x2-700x467.jpg

This assumes that Aboriginal communities are alcoholics, and that they don't care about their children enough to remember their names.
Yes this happens. Guess what, also happens in white communities.
Racism against black/indigenous is enforced moreso because they are an oppressed minority. 18C is a great law to prevent racists from spreading anti black messages like Bill Leak does.
Because we have to improve the conditions for Aboriginals, and the perception of them. Right wingers love to look at Aboriginal communities as a problem of their own doing.
Typical of conservative thinking, that individual responsibility is paramount. There are countless outside factors that come into play that affect Indigenous upbringing & their psychology.
Racism, like Bill Leak's comic, makes the problem worse, Aboriginals feel further isolated from the rest of Australia and cope with this in the form of Alcohol, and abuse their children, and that leads to a never ending feedback loop within the communities, of crime & hate.
If Bill Leak's made a comic in the context of increasing awareness of issues in Aboriginal communities, maybe it could be used for further involvement to resolve the issue. Instead, conservatives blame Aboriginals and their "lifestyle choices" and that's what this comic alludes to.
07:59pm 05/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25528 posts
You idiot, he is actually creating these fine and insightful comics because he cares so much about the plight of the aboriginal people. It is in fact you who is the real racist for getting in the way of all the caring that he's doing.
08:01pm 05/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23395 posts
Except indigenous folks have had countless billions thrown at their communities and this has resulted in amplification of the cartoonist's scenario, child rape, domestic violence, petrol, ice, weed and alcoholism all worse than before. That is the EXACT point he is making - when does individual accountability (and community leadership which doesn't need money strangely) commence instead of victimhood? never.
08:16pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4872 posts
No amount of money will fix this problem.
Aboriginals feel outcast from the rest of Australia, and their situation feels hopeless. This is when people turn to drugs & crime.

I feel we need some sort of program that tries to bring aboriginals into the rest of the community, rather than isolated & money thrown at them.
08:27pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
306 posts
I feel we need some sort of program that tries to bring aboriginals into the rest of the community, rather than isolated & money thrown at them.


Yes they need to be made to become more like us good white folk. An army of christain missionaries could help make them more civilised - that never fails!

If only they could be less black as well...
08:49pm 05/11/16 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12077 posts
A 40,000 year old pagan culture has been given 200 years to adjust to the utterly corrupt and advanced, technology driven society of the white man, after being raped, pillaged and completely destroyed by said white men.

Bill Leak is dancing on their graves and should be ashamed of himself.
08:55pm 05/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25529 posts
Except indigenous folks have had countless billions thrown at their communities and this has resulted in amplification of the cartoonist's scenario, child rape, domestic violence, petrol, ice, weed and alcoholism all worse than before.
It's almost as though money is not the solution to every problem in the world. But what is though? I know, shaming them in the country's worst right-wing rag!

This is where Leak's argument that he's trying to contribute to the debate in a positive manner fails . Even the most dimwitted of individuals realise that racist caricatures and stereotypes will instead make things worse. He has just drawn the cartoons to appeal to the dumb stooges who actually read the australian. They think it's 'deep'.
08:57pm 05/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23396 posts
So we cannot talk about the issue for fear of shaming now. OK. Waits another 200 years.
09:08pm 05/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25530 posts
You can talk about it all you want. You know what though champ? You're really not very bright, and it seems when you're faced with something even remotely complex you quickly recede into dumb strawmans and all sorts of logical fallacies. It kind of suggests to a reasonable observer that you don't really have much basis for all of your loathing of non-white people and that you're actually just a spoilt racist little brat.

I remember the first time we discussed indigenous issues, YEARS AGO, and you claimed their problems were borne from a culture of violence and posted some pamphlet about some leg spearing thing. You're literally seconds away from bringing up that same bulls*** again aren't you?
09:17pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4873 posts

A 40,000 year old pagan culture has been given 200 years to adjust to the utterly corrupt and advanced, technology driven society of the white man, after being raped, pillaged and completely destroyed by said white men.

Bill Leak is dancing on their graves and should be ashamed of himself.


Pretty much this. A very complex problem that conservatives can't grasp because they are all about individual responsibility. Pretty dumb in a community based society like Australia.
09:30pm 05/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25531 posts
Remember it was only 49 years ago that indigenous people were recognised as Australian citizens. infi would have voted no in that referendum.
09:36pm 05/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23397 posts
everyone is equal under the law.
09:44pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3110 posts
I think we can all agree throwing money at the problem hasn't worked, time for some different approaches at the least.
09:45pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
307 posts
everyone is equal under the law.


Bulls***. Under Noongar law, males cost a lot more than females; and it costs at least double as much for a half-caste (but the s*** they're willing to do... just wow! so confused and insecure ;). So the impact, or indeed the very nature of the law is determined by how much money you have.

Maybe you shoud get to know your own country a bit before making stupid, blanket statements, bub.
10:49pm 05/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23400 posts
it's a good troll and it makes a valid point 10/10
10:52pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
308 posts
I knew it, your real name is bub.
11:11pm 05/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4876 posts
im beginning to think all conservatives are trolls. they want to watch the world burn.
11:14pm 05/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12456 posts
Is there any other section of the Community that has had more Government assistance than Indigenous Australians ?
If ever there was an example of the folly of getting the Government to help you.
They dont need anymore help from Government

Aboriginal kids have the exact same rights as White, Red and Orange kids, to grow up in a Home without Domestic Abuse, Sexual Abuse and Drunken Violence. Unless you are directly addressing these problems you might as well be handing them the bottles of Booze

01:58am 06/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2118 posts
Remember it was only 49 years ago that indigenous people were recognised as Australian citizens.


This is inaccurate. If you are referring to the 1967 referendum they were not voting on citizenship. That referendum specifically addressed the issue of the federal parliament being able to make laws for aboriginal people and for aboriginal people being included in the census figures.
04:45pm 06/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2119 posts
Actually I might also add fpot, if the Bill leak cartoon is so offensive why are you and vash the only people to have posted it?

Surely propagating the pure evil in the cartoon is itself an act of racism.
07:51pm 06/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23401 posts
that is victimhood in a nutshell
08:15pm 06/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25532 posts
This is inaccurate. If you are referring to the 1967 referendum they were not voting on citizenship. That referendum specifically addressed the issue of the federal parliament being able to make laws for aboriginal people and for aboriginal people being included in the census figures.
Point taken. My point was though that institutionalised racism against indigenous people didn't end all that long ago.

Not sure what you mean about posting the cartoon. You do understand context right? The reason I posted it was because I believe it exhibits an absurd level of racism and the fact that it is okay for it to be posted in a national publication is quite a telling statement on where we are as a nation when it comes to addressing and recognising racism. Posting it on some backwater forum to a bunch of people who have likely already seen it doesn't seem like propagating it to me.
09:36pm 06/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2120 posts
I don't read the Australian so you posting it here was literally the first time I saw it. Regardless posting here means it is viewable in more rather than less places.

If it was as ubiquitous as you say, surely you could have just referred to the cartoon by name, it didn't need to be posted.

But if you are suggesting the context of the conversation makes it not racist why doesn't that work for leaks?
09:53pm 06/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25533 posts
Well I didn't see it at first in the australian either. I saw it on twitter or facebook or something. Who the f*** reads newspapers?

I reckon simply posting the cartoon is much easier than saying 'hey did everyone see that cartoon published in the australian with the 1950s caricatures in it?' someone going no and then me or someone else posting it anyway.

It's different because our motives are different. That cartoon is not an isolated thing. Bill Leak has done many more using the exact same style and carrying the exact same shallow message as the one I posted. His motives are to produce cartoons he thinks are edgy and that his readership think are deep and meaningful when all they're really doing is acting as confirmation bias. They're safe to post - people aren't ever going to view one and think you know what, I didn't think about this before but Bill Leak has changed my mind and those indigenous people sure are s***. However racist people will see them in a major newspaper and take it as some sort of vindication of their beliefs. It's the reason newspapers like the australian exist in the first place.
10:55pm 06/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2121 posts
It sounds like a naked double standard based on motivation knowledge you don't really have to me.

He drew it just after the NT youth detention thing on four corners. Seems like a comment on the broader context of that investigation to me.

I don't think it supposed to talk about aboriginal people as a class. Just those that are having issues with law enforcement in the NT.

It's certainly a jarring style but I think it is a stretch to say it is a hark back to master race eugenics.
07:01am 07/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23402 posts
And why is it racist to say that cartoon depicts all black Dads are negligent and disinterested. Leak is clearly referring to a subsection of black fathers (of which the Australian community is aware there is a clear category). It is not racist to refer to a specific problem. It would be racist to imply all black dads are deadbeats. Fpot just wants to see a white deadbeat dad in the cartoon for good measure ,although that would not have added anything to the topical discussion about black kids in detention.
08:17am 07/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12459 posts
It's different because our motives are different.


What if Bill Leak was a full blood Aboriginal and drew that cartoon ?
Would it then become a brave black man speaking out on problems affecting his people which are inevitable caused by White people who invaded 200 years ago.

Warren Mundine is an Aboriginal Father and he wasnt offended by the cartoon, he was offended by ignorant white people that are only interested in furthering their own agenda by using Aboriginal problems as a Political football.

02:28pm 07/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25534 posts
It sounds like a naked double standard based on motivation knowledge you don't really have to me.
I dunno. I've actually viewed many of his cartoons. Apparently you haven't?

I'm aware of the timing of its publication. In my view it was drawing attention to an obvious and long going problem (alcoholism and neglect in indigenous communities) while distracting from the less obvious problem (a culture of mistreatment and apathy of guards towards prisoners in youth detention facilities). Another reason I found it disingenuous.

See you're not interpreting it as speaking about indigenous people as a class because you're not a racist twat. However many people out there are, and many of those people read the australian because it's a safe space for them where their views are mainstreamed. In my opinion Bill Leak is completely aware of this and knows exactly what he is doing when he pens his dumb s*** and gets it published.
02:41pm 07/11/16 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12078 posts
ABC's 7.30 just had a story about 18C and an interview with Gillian Triggs.

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/7-30/NC1605H221S00
08:49pm 07/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12461 posts
Good Lord how did someone so disconnected from the real World ever get to a position like that ?

Her claim that the HRC is there to negotiate problems to prevent them going to court is a huge part of the problem.

It intimidated two students in to handing over $5000 (i think) as a settlement.
You have to confess that you "offended" some Clown or THEY DONT LET YOU OFF and when you confess they want you to pay a settlement

and then shes says "Oh most cases are confidential"
because victims are bullied into accepting ludicrous decisions because they cant afford the Legal Counsel, it was only that these other students were represented Pro-Bono.

There are dozens of these cases going on right now and the problem is increasing.

09:47pm 07/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4877 posts
Good Lord how did someone so disconnected from the real World ever get to a position like that ?


look in the mirror dear Delcon
10:51pm 07/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3113 posts
This is a pretty fascinating read.

The collective memory of America is short. Big government helped make America great but it was so successful its effect has become invisible. Anti-Washington hatred helps only the super-rich and puts progress at risk for millions living with wage stagnation and rising inequality.
The Big Con: what is really at stake in this US election

I dare say a rather short collective memory is behind the anti-vaccine movement too. Literally people forgot what it was like to have polio due to not having it then started questioning all the jabs! Amplified by falsified scaremongering.
05:45am 08/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2122 posts
She did say the bar for invoking an investigation is too low in the interview faceman.

However many people out there are, and many of those people read the australian because it's a safe space for them where their views are mainstreamed. In my opinion Bill Leak is completely aware of this and knows exactly what he is doing when he pens his dumb s*** and gets it published.


Ok sure, but here is where I think this reasoning breaks down.

You state
They're safe to post - people aren't ever going to view one and think you know what, I didn't think about this before but Bill Leak has changed my mind and those indigenous people sure are s***. However racist people will see them in a major newspaper and take it as some sort of vindication of their beliefs. It's the reason newspapers like the australian exist in the first place.


To me that says that you think people will come at it with their preconceived notions and it is bad that racists have theirs validated.

What I don't understand is how posting it here is any different. I also don't understand, given the lack of effect, how the author's (or poster's) motivation has much of anything to do with it.

You clearly think infi falls into that particular category of Australian reader. Why does posting it here not validate while in the Australian it does? I think the only real difference is audience size. You could make the argument the Australian lends authority, but then I'd direct your attention to the arab spring. And indeed the US election generally.

A large part of the US issue is people not trusting outlets like the Australian.

Put simply, if you think people won't change their minds, and it is a forgone conclusion a racist will find the image validating no matter what you say, why haven't you vicariously validated racism?
07:17am 08/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12466 posts
Its 1 am in Michigan
Trump is talking to 18 000 people.

This is going to be one helluva night.

DRAIN THE SWAMP
BUILD THAT WALL
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
04:47pm 08/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23405 posts
He has so much energy. Makes Hillary look like a pensioner.
05:03pm 08/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2123 posts
well who knows. But I'm willing to cop a bit of egg.

I'm saying Hillary with at least 290 electoral votes and beats trump by 3 points in the popular vote.

Nate Silver, three for three I reckon.
07:19pm 08/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12467 posts
More Republicans most ever turned out for the Primaries.
Worst turnout ever for the Democrats.

Polls may not be reflecting the fact that although Democrats might prefer Clinton they may not actually go out to vote for her, more Republicans will for Trump.

Clinton will prolly scrape in.
But this has been a crazy Election, anything could happen.

Maybe Ivanka will run in 2020
just keep Dad off Twitter.
07:45pm 08/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4527 posts
He has so much energy. Makes Hillary look like a pensioner.

who, Hitler? bazinga

nah, but the polls seem to have the hilldog by a nose, just depends which of the swing states she gets, if Florida is called early then it's OVAR
08:02pm 08/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23406 posts
yeah i think it would have been better for them to control his twitter earlier. he comes out with some classic zingers.
08:10pm 08/11/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1032 posts
He has so much energy. Makes Hillary look like a pensioner.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udNHsk57f24
09:20pm 08/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3116 posts

I'm also backing Silver's prediction, 3 for 3 baby! Linky: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast

I remember the media / polls calling it really close for Romney v Obama in 2012, and getting all hysteric about it, right up until the very end. Yet it wasn't close at all, turned out 332 to 206 on the electoral college and 51.1% to 47.2% on the popular vote.

Clinton needs a decisive victory though, ideally a good popular vote margin to show a public mandate of sorts, ottherwise it's going to be a s*** show.


12:13am 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12468 posts
12:31am 09/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4528 posts
Clinton needs a decisive victory though, ideally a good popular vote margin to show a public mandate of sorts

nay, to prevent Trump from throwing his toys out of the pram and saying it was rigged

it'd be nice for her to have a senate that actually lets her do anything but after the FBI shenanigans we'll have to see
02:36am 09/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25536 posts
Put simply, if you think people won't change their minds, and it is a forgone conclusion a racist will find the image validating no matter what you say, why haven't you vicariously validated racism?
Yeaaahhh I feel I am just going to be repeating myself if I respond to this. The reason I posted it was simply to say 'holy s*** look at how terrible this is and look at how terrible the australian must be for publishing it'. There was no real deep meaning or purpose to it.

Me posting it for those purposes is completely different from the idea popping into Leak's head, drawing it, and then the australian posting it. They did it for the reason I have already mentioned. To appeal to the knuckle draggers. I felt that was something that needed to be mentioned and the only way to really do that was to post the cartoon. I guess I could have written some words about how the australian is really nothing more than right-wing propaganda but that is a pretty hackneyed point. And you know what they say about pictures and words.
05:39am 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2124 posts
fpot you explicitly stated people's minds won't be changed by the cartoon.

If the cartoon is inherently racist which you again appear to believe, why does this forum, as opposed to the Australian, magically remove its hatefulness. <-you have never addressed this point except to say you motive was different. But motive is not as clear cut as you might like to make out.

The image is ambiguous in its meaning. You've already placed more than one interpretation on it. In those circumstances knowledge to true motivation is going to be difficult and probably impossible to establish. Only Leak knows for certain, and he is not likely to give a damning account of himself is he?

But lets examine the purity of your motivation for a second.

If you really believe that the image validates racist views already held and that the validation is a problem, I simply do not see how posting it here doesn't have the same or similar effect.

The broader point is the act of you posting it is probably enough to trigger HRC 18C jurisdiction. You could probably defend yourself as commenting, though the actual post is pretty thin on commentary, but you'd still have to go and run the argument. Given you state your belief that racists will be validated by the image it could be argued you have shown a callous indifference to the harm caused by racist imagery. This claim would be bolstered by the point that you now claim it isn't really necessary to point out the Australian is a racist publication, which adds a degree of vulgar wantonness to positing it.

And lets not forget Vash Posted this little gem

This assumes that Aboriginal communities are alcoholics, and that they don't care about their children enough to remember their names.
Yes this happens.


A valid reading of that sentence is that the assumption is true. *Entire* Aboriginal communities.
07:58am 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23407 posts
he was posting it to amplify his outrage, white self-loathing and support of minority victimhood. he wear these qualities like a badge. you should know that by now.
09:44am 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2125 posts
he was posting it to amplify his outrage, white self-loathing and support of minority victimhood. he wear these qualities like a badge. you should know that by now.


That's my point. If the image is inherently racist and therefore offensive to aboriginal folks, prioritising your right to display your (non-aboriginal) outrage by posting over the harm done by propagating it is racist.

Given that he has repeatedly stated the image is reasonably likely to be offensive to someone on the basis of their race, he has probably crossed the line set by 18C.

Gillain Triggs was kindly reported by Dais as saying the bar is currently too low.

Meanwhile Vash said the racist assumption of the cartoon was true. What he likes 18C so much he thought he'd show us how to break it?
10:37am 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23408 posts
would it be racist if the subject of the cartoon was a white male, VB in hand with Southern Cross tattoo on shoulder, displaying the exact or similar sentiment?

edit: This is why the cartoon hits a nerve

The number of indigenous children removed from their families is projected to triple in the next two decades unless high rates of ­parental neglect and abuse are ­reversed.

More than 15,000 indigenous children nationwide are sleeping away from their homes each night, a rate of removal almost 10 times that of non-indigenous kids, according to a report to be ­released today.

The skyrocketing rate of ­removal has meant that more than 35 per cent of all children in out-of-home care are now indigenous. In 1997, when the Bringing Them Home report into the ­Stolen Generations was released, that figure stood at just 20 per cent, or just under 3000 indigenous children in care.
10:44am 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2126 posts
That's more a question for fpot and vash.

My point is that if you accept an image is racist (particularly against a race you don't belong to) and then post it to show how outraged you are you are minimising the harm which by your own reasoning it does.

You minimise by demonstrating you care more about your opinion then the harm caused. Which in my view is a racist act.

For reasons stated above I'm not convinced that Leak's cartoon is. I see plausible non-racist interpretations and on the strength of that I think any knowledge claimed to Leak's actual intention is unlikely to be accurate.

Art generally is supposed to engage an audience and be filled in with the audience's interpretation. Therefore assuming the worst possible intention of the artist is disingenuous.

However, if you elect to go down that road, which fpot and vash clearly have, you need a plausible storey as to why your outrage trumps the victims of a racist cartoon. I haven't read one.

Also given their acceptance that the cartoon is racist, I don't see a good reason why 18C hasn't been satisfied by posting it.
11:20am 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2127 posts
12:18pm 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12469 posts
Not so fast PP
Its not over with Trump ahead in Florida.

Trump is doing better than expected
Clinton may not get to 270


THAT WOMAN is facing Defamation claims over the 7.30 interview.
She is a serial Truth Wibble-Wobbler
01:01pm 09/11/16 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3953 posts
I really don't understand how Americans vote, most of the senate states are 99-100% for one senator.
01:39pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16554 posts
NYT's prediction now has Trump to win o.O

http://i.imgur.com/uhNqJFL.png

fivethirtyeight still has Clinton taking the Whitehouse, but continues to narrow.
01:50pm 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12470 posts
HOLY S***
02:34pm 09/11/16 Permalink
notgreazy
Other International
591 posts

Its even worse now (much higher forecast for trump)
http://www.nytimes.com/elections/forecast/president

Overall:
http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/president

I gotta say the NY times page is really good and nicely presented


02:45pm 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12471 posts
TRUMP WINS FLORIDA North Carolina and Ohio look to be his too
he needed all of those if he was to win

he needs another 48 more Electoral College Votes.

03:09pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16555 posts
NYT has > 95% Trump victory now HOLY S***
03:24pm 09/11/16 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19018 posts
this is the darkest timeline.
03:38pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4878 posts
It's like pauline hanson just became PM. Sucks to be an American
03:54pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2128 posts
If she takes Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and flips new hampshire she is still gets there.
04:00pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1938 posts
Canadian citizenship site getting 503 errors.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/ENGLISH/citizenship/index.asp
04:02pm 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12473 posts
04:20pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23409 posts
Lul the sky will fall in! Let's flee the country. Churr
04:27pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4529 posts
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

hold on tight Trump voters, this presidency is gonna knock your house off its wheels
04:27pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2129 posts
remarkable!
04:29pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40361 posts
This is why u cant trust the general public with anything important
04:38pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3117 posts
Amazehorrifying.
05:26pm 09/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25537 posts
I think you're kinda pretty desperate to achieve your 'gotcha' moment against me Pete to the point where you'll just try to bore me out. We'll you've bored me out at least. I am perfectly comfortable with re-posting racist material in order to shine a light on it. You yourself said you hadn't seen it until Vash and myself posted it. Let's say a publication does post racist material, if it isn't replicated outside of that publication, how will people ever know about it?

Here I'll make you a deal - as soon as the australian stops posting flagrantly racist bulls***, I'll stop re-posting it.

Trump getting elected... what's the worst thing to happen before this? I honestly can't think of anything bar WW2 and surely I am wrong about that.

edit: Cultural Revolution? Rwandan genocide?
05:32pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2130 posts
Here is a better deal for you fpot.

Whining about and reposting racist cartoons is about as base level slacktivism as is possible to achieve.

There is no gotcha moment. You're just intellectually lazy with your moral compass. Which is fine. Just don't confuse in-group bias with actual moral clarity.
05:43pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2131 posts
edit: Cultural Revolution? Rwandan genocide?


Case in point.
05:45pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4879 posts
PP you're all about gotcha moments. Show your position in politics or be quiet. This "lol he's racist cos he posted a racist thing, but wait, the guy who made the racist thing aint racist" is pretty funny tho.
05:49pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16556 posts
this is the darkest timeline.

Berenstein Bears, that f*****g S symbol everyone draws as kids, Trump Presidency.

Its like they're not even trying to pretend its real anymore. Someone is making this s*** up as they go along Rick and Morty style.
05:49pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2132 posts
This "lol he's racist cos he posted a racist thing, but wait, the guy who made the racist thing aint racist" is pretty funny tho.


Gee you're good at not understanding things.
05:52pm 09/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25538 posts
Yeah okay. You know there used to be a time when I'd put a bit of effort into posting on this here forum but those days are well and truly over. I am really only interested in non-effort posts and the lowest hanging fruit so yeah I guess that does make me intellectually lazy as you say. I can easily live with internet forum people thinking that.

And for the record, I think this nomination easily has the potential to trum... overcome those two things I mentioned. Maybe not in body count (at least when it comes to the Cultural Revolution) but as far as long lasting irreparable harm goes to the integrity of a country that once actually was great.
05:57pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4880 posts
That's my point. If the image is inherently racist and therefore offensive to aboriginal folks, prioritising your right to display your (non-aboriginal) outrage by posting over the harm done by propagating it is racist.

You minimise by demonstrating you care more about your opinion then the harm caused. Which in my view is a racist act.


Only way it could be understood.

Also, posting it here, raising awareness of racial issues in our media, would further the cause of eliminating said racism.
The Australian is a disgraceful paper in the quality of its opinion pieces & cartoons. They complain constantly about our public broadcaster's bias, yet fail to look in the mirror of their own bias. They believe Aboriginal woes are caused by themselves, rather than induced by whites.
Pretty amusing coming from a paper that is entirely white.

They are basically a propaganda paper, operating at a loss, furthering the interests of the corporate overlords.
06:02pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23410 posts
Trump will be fine. The Republican House and Senate will support his great ideas (tax cuts, repeal Obamacare, border security) and block his bad ideas (building a wall, increasing tarrifs).

He won't be able to escape the constraints of the White House advisors, and Republican party are going to need to kiss some serious ass now.
06:06pm 09/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2133 posts
Only way it could be understood.


The way you understood it, because of the publication source. Which doesn't even begin to pass for thought.

Your ability to "identify" racism doesn't imply you're not.
06:21pm 09/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38564 posts
The Republican House and Senate will support his great ideas (tax cuts, repeal Obamacare, border security) and block his bad ideas (building a wall, increasing tarrifs).
Heh, only an Australian libertarian that has never lived in the United States and has (edit: I assume) been fortunate enough to not have any major health problems would think repealing Obamacare is one of his great ideas!

While I haven't met all the Americans, all the ones I have met think Obamacare is uniformly a good thing, with the exception of one or two people (one of them is a young Army guy who thinks he is invincible and has all his healthcare paid for by the federal government; the irony is of course lost on him completely).

I actually think keeping the tariffs would be better for America than ditching Obamacare. Maybe not in the dumb extremist way he proposed but certainly putting some pressure on Chinese manufacturing would be in the interests of the manufacturing capacity of the US. But I think Americans would literally lose their s*** if their $2 toaster from Walmart suddenly became $4.
06:36pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23411 posts
because the premiums are increasing at phenomenal rates. people can't plan their family budgets. and there is dwindling choice, as insurers stop offering plans.

They might want to try a universal health system of some other sort but the Affordable Care Act is a dud.
08:04pm 09/11/16 Permalink
nings
Gold Coast, Queensland
412 posts
A big victory for people power in America..
Too bad Americans appear to be retarded.
08:08pm 09/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21069 posts
Heh, only an Australian libertarian that has never lived in the United States and has (edit: I assume) been fortunate enough to not have any major health problems would think repealing Obamacare is one of his great ideas!


For reals

Ini why is that a good thing? Is it the way it is to be implemented or just the f*** welfare mentality? I am genuinely curious i have never read any of the details of it but how could it possibly be a bad thing?
08:27pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6166 posts
SO when do the 'deportation squads' (his words, not mine) start clearing out the immigrants and Muslims? When does NATO collapse? and the world becomes an even more destabalised place to live in?, when does Saudi Arabia introduce Nukes to the Middle East (always a good idea to have such weapons near raving fundamentalist radicals) Iran will likewise follow suit and well we know what they want to do with them...Israel get ready. Maybe Australia needs to go Nuclear, Japan will have to, South Korea will have to go Nuclear because of the Loony who lives above them in North Korea, a loony that Trump has praised mind you, China will get jumpy with all this happening around them.. If Trump is going to make NATO a 'user pay' model as he promised then we might as well increase our taxes and go Nuclear too, we need a deterrent and not having the USA backing us via NATO, means we are easy pickings. Do not kid yourself that some regimes do not view us as strategically well positioned and resource rich and hence, 'very appealing'.


When does the 20 million people with affordable health care lose it exactly? When do american women start being imprisoned for having an abortion?, Are women now happy that they have officially been recoognised as second rate citizens? When does Mike Pence start to introduce the amalgamation of Church and State in HIS fundamentals agenda? When do the good ol' lynchings start again in the deep South now that the KKK has been vindicated supporting a racist, bigoted, xenophobe, isolationist? When does Mexico start paying for that wall? When does he NUKE ISIS as he knows more than his military generals and will 'wipe them out and bomb them off the planet' (his words not mine.) The list goes on an on, denigrating the freedom of the press, threatening law suits on media if he doesn't like what they print about him (Ghadafi was good at that), threatening to imprison political opponents (one of Putin's favourite things to do other than have them murdered that is), failing to be transparent about his tax dealing with Russia...its a f*****g nightmare people.

America just announced itself to the world as probably the dumbest people on the planet. They have given a loaded machine gun to a monkey with a hair trigger. This is tantamount to the Australian people making Pauline Hanson our Prime Minister, that's how crazy this s*** it!

Putin must be rubbing his hand with glee, he now has an imbecile to manipulate in the White House.

Also, as a side not the Canadian Immigration website crashed tonight due to the number of inquires being hit from the USA. Seems a lot of people don't want to live in a Trump America?
08:31pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23412 posts
None of that will happen Chicken Little. The sky is not falling.
08:39pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3118 posts
You better hope none of that happens. Most of us are sweet summer children of a few decades of relative peace & prosperity created solely by America's hegemony and leadership in almost all things since the end of WW2. Losing that and returning to a multipolar geopolitical landscape, with several aggressive states vying for super power status, and the US no longer policing or backing up allies, isn't a great recipe for continued stability! In fact that's somewhat akin to the scenarios preceding both world wars.

WW3 legitimately just became more possible than it was before.
08:51pm 09/11/16 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3954 posts
Yeah the sky fell when Turnbull dumped Abbott.

Oh wait, no it was when Australia voted in Gillard, wait no when people had batts in their ceilings or some s***.

Either way the sky fell ages ago.
08:53pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6167 posts
None of that will happen Chicken Little. The sky is not falling.


Oh, what wait? He is not going to follow through on any of his campaign promises? this is Trump we are talking about here. The king of the stupid double down. How do you think his bigoted fan base are going to take it if he suddenly says he isn't going to deport the 11 million 'illegals">? Or he has changed his mind about allowing Muslims into the USA? OR he has changed his mind on the Wall? hmmm what then? They will flip their s***, its THESE 'policies' that got him elected.
09:02pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23413 posts
it's marketing. every politician promises the world. then the congress and senate bring them back to earth. just relax hey...
09:07pm 09/11/16 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21070 posts
And by the next election everyone that voted him in will hate him because he didn't nuke anyone or deploy the deporation squads
09:12pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4881 posts
And he's meant to be the protest vote, yet he is the embodiment of the entire problem with America & it's establishment politics.
09:19pm 09/11/16 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3955 posts
I like it how infi doesn't want some movie star telling him about the environment but is happy to have a reality TV star as POTUS
09:29pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23414 posts
hey Trump is a mirror. He is reflecting the sentiment of middle america. That's why he won.

Leo is NONE of those things.
09:33pm 09/11/16 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
12079 posts
vox.com - There’s no way around it: Donald Trump is going to be a disaster for the planet

This is happening. Donald Trump is going to be president of the United States.

And there’s no way around it: What he’s planning to do looks like an absolute disaster for the planet (and the people on it). Specifically, all the fragile but important progress the world has made on global warming over the past eight years is now in danger of being blown to hell.


Arnie is the Republican president America needs! Too bad he is not eligible.



last edited by dais at 22:37:09 09/Nov/16
10:35pm 09/11/16 Permalink
taggs
6459 posts
The best thing about US elections no matter the result is watching 1) everyone suddenly become an expert on US politics because they sat around watching election trackers and reading blogs instead of working for a day and 2) the collective meltdown of ~50% of society.

Wow did today deliver!
10:47pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4530 posts
hey buddy, I've been goofing off at work on 538 for months now

speaking of, they must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits
10:53pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6168 posts
hey Trump is a mirror. He is reflecting the sentiment of middle america. That's why he won.


That's basically true but the protest vote would have been a big part of the outcome. What I cant fathom is how an entire Nation will accept a person in power with both the legislatures in his Party, which will make him the most powerful President in several decades. How they can be ok with a man who has said the things he has said, put forward the 'policies' he has indicated like mass deportation, fining or imprisoning women who get an abortion, withdrawing from the Paris Accord, blatantly denying science. Claiming he is wiser than combat experienced generals, had to ask the question several times during an intelligence briefing, 'why don't we use Nuclear weapons, we make them don't we?" Would not rule out the use of a nuclear device on mainland Europe etc..etc..ALL his crazy promises and intentions are well recorded on video, it just astounds me that the majority of Americans are OK with that. What type of societies go full isolationist from the rest of the world and have a dictator like leader who threatens opponents and the press alike...not ones we all think are great surely?

To be honest, right now I personally think Trump would be s***ting himself. This s*** just got REAL and he knows has no clue. When his son approached Mike Pence and asked him if he wanted to be 'the most powerful V.P in History', Pence asked him what he would be doing. The son replied, 'You will be in charge of all domestic and foreign affairs!" Pence asked what Trump would be doing as that is pretty much the President's job description. The son replied, "He will be going around making America great again!" THAT'S the level of intelligence & experience the yanks have just given ultimate power to. wow.
10:53pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6169 posts
The best thing about US elections no matter the result is watching 1) everyone suddenly become an expert on US politics because they sat around watching election trackers and reading blogs instead of working for a day and 2) the collective meltdown of ~50% of society. Wow did today deliver!


Actually some people have lived there you know, where not all 15 yrs old ya know.
10:56pm 09/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23415 posts
Psycho: think of the campaign like haute couture fashion. It is very extreme in its messages because the candidates have a very short time (and limited sound bites on media) to get their message across.

What you get once in office is the off the rack fashion you buy in the stores. It is less extreme because that is what's affordable and practical. Election campaign policies just sound good on paper.

There is no way a wall will ever get built but it sounds pretty cool.

This campaign was fantastic - a cage fight to the death. Now everybody gets back to reality. Politics is the art of the possible.
11:08pm 09/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7521 posts
11:13pm 09/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38566 posts
because the premiums are increasing at phenomenal rates. people can't plan their family budgets. and there is dwindling choice, as insurers stop offering plans.
Yeh you know there sure seem to be a lot of people saying that but in my experience at least (in Ohio) it is not true. Maybe some states are deliberately trying to sabotage the ACA by massively jacking up the rates (or they just have f***ed exchanges because their whole system is hosed, which is probably way more likely) but the reality (in a state that is not at all a hippy blue state) is quite different.

When I arrived in the US, ACA was just signed in to law. I had more options at the time; the slightly cheaper non-ACA plan (which had a 100 page policy and was impossible to understand) or the ACA plan which was dead simple to understand but (IIRC) about $50 more per month.

By the time I left the US (2 years later) my premiums (remember this is for a non-ACA plan) had gone up from about $180/mo to $230/mo (IIRC). Looking now (1 year later) the equivalent plan on ACA I think is about $300 (I say I think because it's very hard to compare plans directly to non-ACA plans because of the simply staggering number of variables).

So it is more expensive but hardly gone up at a phenomenal rate. When I look at the increases for my private cover back in Australia it had gone up a fairly similar amount year on year.
11:23pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4531 posts
When do american women start being imprisoned for having an abortion?

on this and other civil rights matters I think they're safe for the time being, as he would have to get enough of his "pro-life justices" on the bench to roll back any existing precedents

mercifully he (probably) hasn't gained a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate (that is 60/100) so any attempt to appoint Ted Nugent or whoever to the vacancy will be met with resistance, and so on each time one of the old farts on the current bench makes way for a new nominee

then in two years time if the American people have any sense they take the Senate off him

at any rate it's one of many empty promises he made for his fundamentalist base
11:39pm 09/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3119 posts

I know you love a bit of Chomsky Pete! From 2010:

"The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen," Chomsky went on. "Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response. What are people supposed to think if someone says "I have got an answer, we have an enemy'? There it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority. We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation. Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force. And if it happens it will be more dangerous than Germany. The United States is the world power. Germany was powerful but had more powerful antagonists. I don't think all this is very far away."


Read more: http://chomsky-must-read.blogspot.co.za/2010/08/chomsky-usa-2010-weimar-quote.html#ixzz4PW060igc


11:47pm 09/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12475 posts
Clinton is due to speak in 20mins if you are awake
02:10am 10/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1939 posts
08:17am 10/11/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16557 posts
So less than 20% of Americans voted for their President.

That just seems wrong?
09:04am 10/11/16 Permalink
taggs
6460 posts
hey buddy, I've been goofing off at work on 538 for months now


Haha!

Thoughto be fair iirc Nate Silver has been one of the few consistently saying that this one was going to be closer than most people thought and that the dems shouldn't get complacent.
09:15am 10/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1940 posts
So less than 20% of Americans voted for their President.

That just seems wrong?


231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted for Clinton
25.5% voted for Trump
1.7% voted for Johnson
10:54am 10/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38567 posts


Haha!

Thoughto be fair iirc Nate Silver has been one of the few consistently saying that this one was going to be closer than most people thought and that the dems shouldn't get complacent.
there seems to be a lot of nerd rage about Nate Silver/538; my overwhelming memory is that they said it was going to be close, not that it was going to be a clinton romp in (unlike say NYT!)
11:10am 10/11/16 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16558 posts

there seems to be a lot of nerd rage about Nate Silver/538; my overwhelming memory is that they said it was going to be close, not that it was going to be a clinton romp in (unlike say NYT!)

The problem is that people assumed that this = clinton win:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo

28% is like rolling 7 or higher on 1d10, its hardly an amazingly outside shot!
11:32am 10/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4532 posts
old mate Nate was very cautious indeed

he was likely chastened by predicting Jeb Bush would be nominated and thinking Trump had practically no chance, although that theory was based upon party endorsements rather than polling
11:44am 10/11/16 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19019 posts
i just remembered that south park is out today. it should be a good one.
12:56pm 10/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12476 posts
Sir Redhats graph is interesting.

Thats exactly what I said would happen with Clinton, low turnout but look at the Republican turnout - that is the opposite of what I said would happen for Trump.

I think in that missing Republican vote there are Republicans, True Republicans who considered Trump to be a little like the way True Liberal Voters in Australia considered Turnbull - Not an Ideological Righty.

Also some Republicans maybe couldnt handle Trump the Troll.

He did do something I thought would have a huge effect, he stole possibly as high as 75% or more of the Media oxygen, Can any of you name two Clinton Policies ? One even ?

You could prolly name half a dozen of Trumps, because you heard them every day in the Media, dumb Liberals(USA) fell for it, The Media thought they were using Trump as their plaything, Fools like Jon Stewart and John Oliver who did more for Trump than anyone at FoxNews, they now know that their Servant was actually their Master.

The House
The Senate
The Presidency

God bless The Deplorables for they have inherited America.

01:27pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1033 posts
slapsForehead: amusingly I just finished watching that (the credits are still rolling) and then I saw the pic you posted.
02:01pm 10/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38569 posts



The problem is that people assumed that this = clinton win:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo

28% is like rolling 7 or higher on 1d10, its hardly an amazingly outside shot!
yeh interesting, I hadn't seen that, but you're spot on
04:32pm 10/11/16 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
38570 posts
Thats exactly what I said would happen with Clinton, low turnout but look at the Republican turnout - that is the opposite of what I said would happen for Trump.
Yeh. This graph is a bit misleanding because it doesn't start at zero but it's still interesting to see the bad democratic turnout numbers (although from a quick vetting of the numbers it looks like 2008 was a bumper year for Dem turnout).
04:43pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4533 posts
it seems a lot of complacent dems simply stayed home
05:26pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3120 posts
Wowzers, those turnout stats are astonishing.

So only about 56% of the electorate voted, Clinton won the popular vote, yet Trump won a few key battleground stats by the margins for the electoral college win.

All the bernie or bust bros, Harambe voters, and the dems that stayed home must be kicking themselves.

Now we're all stuck with Trump for 4 years!
05:46pm 10/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23416 posts
Who doesn't want lower taxes!? Wish we could do it here.
05:53pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4534 posts
not sure how either government could handle the drop in revenue
06:42pm 10/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23417 posts
just cut spending. go back to the start of 20th century. so many handouts to be reversed.
06:49pm 10/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12477 posts
I wonder if Black Americans stayed home ?

Gingrich as Sec of State would be a disaster he is a Fathead.
Id like to see Guliani given it.
Ben Carson deserves a post too.
Nothing for Palin

This is prolly the end of Global Warming.
Captain Planets movie seems to have been a failure.
He must be very angry.

07:24pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4535 posts
they're talking up Rudy for a senior cabinet position? and Newt? and Ben Carson? Christ on a bike, you have got to be kidding me
07:40pm 10/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12478 posts
is it time for The Left to stop lecturing us ?



07:40pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1941 posts
is it time for The Left to stop lecturing us ?


Shock jock complains about getting lectured, more news at 9.

Protip, Hillary is right wing when it comes to economic policy, trump is protectionist and more left.

I suspect he'll just tariff mexican imported goods and claim that's how they're paying for the wall.

Why couldn't we just feel the Bern?
08:19pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3122 posts
Steve was talking, she interrupted him in a fairly agitated manner, he made a point about the left's lecturing, yet he's the one who took the wrong tone? What a load of s***.
08:22pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4882 posts
Haha righties get so upset when they get burned. Hence why they invented the SJW term.
"Oh i can't win this argument, LOL SJW TEARS, TRIGGERED!"
08:51pm 10/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7522 posts
slapsForehead: amusingly I just finished watching that (the credits are still rolling) and then I saw the pic you posted.


Yeah Mike Judge's "Idiocracy" is a window into the future.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:42:00 10/Nov/16
09:39pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4883 posts
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw48AneVIAEVF3Z.jpg:large

Good ole keating.
One of the things thats kept Australia great is keeping the liberals in check with their horrid trump-like policies.
10:23pm 10/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7523 posts
^ Yeah but didn't Johnny Howard get rid of the guns?
10:57pm 10/11/16 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2134 posts
Viper I think this is the more compelling narative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_Apart_(book)

The trouble with Chomsky (gee for an intellectual to go to Hitler.) is that Trump is taking about the kind of s*** he wants. It is anti free trade and is selling an isolationist foreign policy.

On top of that unlike germany I think the US is war weary.
11:13pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4536 posts
I didn't get the sense that Keating was taking credit for cracking down on guns...
11:29pm 10/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4884 posts
Yeah, he was just stating what makes Australia great. We can credit Howard for the lack of guns. For the rest though, if the LNP had their way, we would be regressing to the USA level on the economy.

The wealth inequality of America was caused by the plutocracy, less regulation & less taxes will further entrench that.
11:53pm 10/11/16 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
2339 posts
09:17am 11/11/16 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1942 posts
Oooooooooooh 'member being flogged with a wet lettuce speech?

'member "all tip no iceberg"?

'member "desiccated little coconut"?

I member
10:00am 11/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12480 posts
It must have been a bad day for you HJ
Mine was a little better.

9/11 11/9





01:54pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4885 posts
04:14pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6170 posts
And so it begins...Trump Land

The disgusting rednecks are crawling out from under their rocks now, thinking they are back in charge. Hmm maybe they are?
06:35pm 11/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25539 posts
Hmm pretty sure you guys are overreacting. infi said everything would be fine.
07:35pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3126 posts
Interesting find Pete, I might add that to the reading list. That article actually argues against an American Hilter for similar reasons.

Trump's already started back pedalling and downright reversing a bunch of his more controversial statements and policies. Will be interesting to see who is cabinet is and what his actual policy plan will be.
08:20pm 11/11/16 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1211 posts
Hmm pretty sure you guys are overreacting. infi said everything would be fine.


It will be fine, Trump will be a great president and all the spastics that think they still have a choice will cry...somewhat
09:48pm 11/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23420 posts
Remember all the riots when Obama won?
09:55pm 11/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25540 posts
No because there was no reason to riot.
09:55pm 11/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23421 posts
"Reason" being Democrat candidate did not win. Triggered.
10:17pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4886 posts

There is plenty of reason to riot now. Trump is a fascist, and fascism has to be stamped down at all costs.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4teoxl/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/

Here's a nice summary.


10:26pm 11/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23422 posts
He is a politician voted in, according to the Constitution just like all those before him. How is not a fascist as much as it fits your lazy usage of the word.

Trump never insulted people who didn't vote for him. True to the elitist leftist attitude, if you don't agree which the liberal agenda you are "deplorable".

Losing liberal tears are the tastiest tears.
10:32pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4537 posts
yes, it's time to come together and unite as Americans with me as your great president, and please forget all the horrible things I said during my campaign
10:33pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4887 posts
Hitler was voted in too, Infi. The things Trump has said is a strong indication that he is a fascist. And we should take that very seriously.
10:38pm 11/11/16 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
23423 posts
Do you seriously think the USA people would tolerate a suspension of the rule of law? You come out with some idiotic statements.
10:43pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4888 posts
Considering what Trump supporters already tolerate with what Trump says, it would not surprise me one bit what he could get away with now. Hence, the riots.
10:46pm 11/11/16 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25541 posts
Trump never insulted people who didn't vote for him.
Yeah but he did advocate sexual assault, staunchly deny climate change despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, claimed Mexican immigrants were rapists, flagrantly lied the same way a toddler would lie (9/11 cheering), suggest banning all Muslims from the US and I could literally go on forever.

Obama was black.
11:27pm 11/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4889 posts
12:20am 12/11/16 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12481 posts
The only people being assaulted are the Trump supporters by the StormTroopers of The Left.





It would appear some Triggered Liberals are suffering Hallucinations

http://klfy.com/2016/11/10/lafayette-pd-ul-student-made-up-story-about-attack-stolen-hijab/

12:28am 12/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3127 posts

Trump is not a facist, nothing he is doing is fascism, you need to stop with that narrative.

You can roll with your Reddit experts if you like, but they're wrong. I'll take the political / social scientists and historians over them any day personally. There's a plethora of material on this from a variety of reputable publications, heres two good ones:

I asked 5 fascism experts whether Donald Trump is a fascist. Here's what they said.

I Know Fascists; Donald Trump Is No Fascist.

If you're going to harp on about it, then get it right, it's more akin to right-wing populism with authoritarianism undertones. If you're interested in digging into exactly what all that is and where it came from I'd defo recommend this great explanation on the alt-right by Vox.

I posted that Chomsky quote earlier, it's not really talking about fascism either, it does relate well to Trump in the sense that he's a populist demagogue. However it's also wrong for a few key reasons, which are explained in the link I included: Why There Won't Be An American Hitler.

Republicans decrying the democrats for protesting this result is pretty hypocritical given a) more people voted for Clinton, b) more people didn't vote than voted, and c) they did the same thing (though didn't hit the streets) and then basically denied Obama 8 years of co-operation at the expense of the country for the sake of the party.

Trump in 2012:

http://assets.lbc.co.uk/2016/45/donald-trump-tweets-2012-1478856552.jpg

Link: http://www.lbc.co.uk/politics/us-election/donald-trump/donald-trump-four-years-ago-v-now/


01:04am 12/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7524 posts
I doubt Trump could even spell the word 'fascism'. You guys give him to much credit.
01:15am 12/11/16 Permalink
Psycho
Brisbane, Queensland
6171 posts
Any person who doesn't find unwarranted violence or racism against any human being has issues, any person who doesn't see anything wrong with some of the tweets and post linked here about people already being persecuted because of their dress of faith or the colour of their skin, THEY have the issues. What surprises me is that NO ONE from the Trump camp has publicly denounced these incidents seeing as the word 'trump' is often written with them? A woman was grabbed in a Walmart by her headscarf and told that 'they are illegal now, go hang yourself with it' ANYONE who doesn't find that disgusting, THEY are the one with issues. If these behaviours don't 'trigger' you as a human being then you're not very humane then are you? And if you are proud of these deplorable behaviours then hang your sorry head in shame.

I wonder when the Jews will be targeted for wearing their yamulkes? Or the Catholics for displaying a cross or .........




last edited by Psycho at 01:17:10 12/Nov/16
01:15am 12/11/16 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7525 posts
The racist attacks I find very disturbing.

Please remember though, retarded attacks against religious headwear is not racism, it is bigotry. It irks me when people call attacks against one persons form of skydaddy worship (which is fine by me - although I am an atheist) as racism. As far as I am concerned, your belief in a skydaddy is your own personal choice, whereas the skin colour you are born with is not.

Being persecuted in public for your ethnic background is disgusting.
01:36am 12/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3128 posts
Another important thing to remember is that Trump was previously a New York democrat! Which is one of the reasons the Republican establishment rejected him, a democrat in republican clothing. Who knows where he's gonna go with it now. He's effectively destroyed both political parties and the establishment elite, it's astonishing.

The bigoted and racist attacks are shameful and depressing, there was a similar thing after Brexit, they are from a minority though, who feel they've been legitimised by the result. I don't think you can really make that conclusion though, given Clinton won the popular vote and almost half the electorate didn't vote.
01:44am 12/11/16 Permalink
Vash
4890 posts
racist attacks? pfft SJWs are triggered so easily!@&!
Trump definitely has the personality & fanbase to commit fascism. Especially with the s*** he spews at his rallies.

Trump is not a facist, nothing he is doing is fascism, you need to stop with that narrative.


One can only assume he is, going by what he says. The reddit link isn't an opinion piece like your blog, it is stating things he has said. and the things he has said is fascism based rhetoric.
01:51am 12/11/16 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3129 posts
The statements you are referring to are not consistent with the accepted definition of fascism, nor the statements or actions associated with fascism, that's what the articles I linked explain. So I'm afraid that's not really correct, Vash.

There are of course a bunch of similarities so the confusion is understandable. It might be worth mentioning that Hitler's fascism was blended with a range of concepts from totalitarianism and authoritarianism, which are the bits that have similarities to what Trump is doing I think. In some ways you could argue Nazi Germany was more of a totalitarian dictatorship than it was a fascist state.
01:56am 12/11/16 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1212 posts
f***en whatever

Im pumped...Im ready for a tsunami of s***c***,

bring it on..
02:10am 12/11/16 Permalink
HerbalLizard
6478 posts

f***en whatever

Im pumped...Im ready for a tsunami of s***c***,

bring it on..


High fives to this guy!
10:03am 12/11/16 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1034 posts
Psycho, you got a link to