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Viper119
Other International
3287 posts
Ahh... we seem to be massively downplaying the sheer scale of death directly attributable to communism. Also that WW2 era Soviet Russia was a truly horrific regime on par with the Nazis or perhaps even worse in some respects. I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting, but it is rather indirect in comparison.

According to a disturbingly pleasant graphic from Information is Beautiful entitled simply 20th Century Death, communism was the leading ideological cause of death between 1900 and 2000. The 94 million that perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe easily (and tragically) trump the 28 million that died under fascist regimes during the same period. During the century measured, more people died as a result of communism than from homicide (58 million) and genocide (30 million) put together. The combined death tolls of WWI (37 million) and WWII (66 million) exceed communism’s total by only 9 million.
Communism Killed 94M in 20th Century, Feels Need to Kill Again

According to Stéphane Courtois’s The Black Book of Communism, Communism is responsible for 100 million deaths, a number total that far exceeds Nazism, which left 16 million dead—and it eclipses the 20th century death tolls of lung cancer, diabetes, and homicides.

Mao’s estimated death toll ranges from 60 million to 80 million, which surpasses the lives claimed by World War I (37 million) and possibly World War II (66 million).

Courtois tabs Russian dictator Joseph Stalin’s death total at 20 million, though this number fluctuates from 10 to 60 million depending on the source.

In Ukraine, collectivization and soviet industrialization brought about the Holomodor, a famine that caused between 2.5 to 7.5 million deaths.

In Cambodia, Pol Pot—who was previously a member of the French Communist Party... During his reign from 1975-1979, about 1.5-2 million of a total population of 7 million Cambodians were killed

Another two million were murdered by communists in North Korea and Ethiopia.
Communism: The Leading Ideological Cause of Death in the 20th Century

Daniel Goldhagen argues that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type." Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions. Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total.
Mass killings under Communist regimes

Rather subjectively, I've been to a bunch of Eastern Europe and have a fair few friends from there. The lingering effects of communism I saw there were terrible, and none of my friends from there are pro-communist, they're all keen to progress to Western style social democratic capitalism as quickly as possible.

Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.
07:27pm 24/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2603 posts
I'll answer more fully later viper.

But my experience is the same. I have a bunch of polish friends and the less said about their opinion of communism the better.

I was actually softer on communism before I lived in Europe. People who actually lived under it left no room for error. It's f***ed. and people who think otherwise are dumb or evil.

*edit* please make a fool of yourself fpot by calling me racist again. Just be aware the principle mode of antisemitism in the world to day is to redirect the holocaust against non-jews. I'm being nice. I won't call you antisemitic. But know you are flirting with it when you say the Nazi's wanted to kill just anyone, */edit*
11:14pm 24/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18395 posts
What is the point of comparing various political systems to a death toll? Pretty much every government system ever created has at some point been involved with significant deaths, and probably will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe it's not a problem of government, maybe it's just because humans can be vicious little bastards when they feel scared. Every government, at least in modern history, has dabbled in fear-based campaigns. Unfortunately, it works well.
09:07am 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5406 posts
yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now


Not even close. We're still firmly in the right of center camp, and drifting further that way.
Here's hoping a new power is rising after the French & UK election results.
09:19am 25/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2604 posts
I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting


I don't. I think it will be rather difficult to plausibly attribute too many deaths to the idea trade and industry should be privately owned and run for profit. But even if you want to start attributing deaths to it, I think it becomes incumbent to offer a superior alternative. Because the hard facts are that capitalism easily provides the highest living standard for the most amount of people of any system we've ever tried. So what ever deaths are occurring under modern capitalism its a good bet they wouldn't have been saved by adopting a different system. And its a better bet the situation would have been much much worse under Marxism.

It doesn't save everyone, but that's not a claim it makes for itself. Unlike some other systems.


Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations
and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.


Well it all depends what you mean by neoliberal really. The free movement of labour and capital is pretty central to neoliberalism. So I don't really think you can have something like the EU without being neoliberal in some sense.

But more over my understanding of neoliberalism is not that reducing govt regulation etc is an end in itself. the idea is that a higher standard of living will be achieved to the extent the state does not get involved. And to be honest, I think that idea generally has legs. People operating in their own self interest will tend to do a better job of something then a bureaucracy.

It doesn't hold true for everything, but it does for a lot of things, and probably more things than not.

Medicine would be an example where self interested parties don't seem to do a great job. But it is true to say also that there is no lack of government intervention (even in the US), and I know doctors that do complain about how government health is run. My dad is a pharmacist and he complains all the time that the Australian PBS is incredibly wasteful, while acknowledging that something like it is necessary.

I also think it is important to say that while it is *clearly* an outrage someone should be excluded from adequate medical care for lack of money in a 1st world country, it is also true that there is a lot about health care that is not strictly speaking necessary in order for it to be delivered but that people would not generally be willing to do with out.

For example the personal relationship with your doctor is not medically necessary, but if you were forced to leave a GP you liked for no good reason you'd probably be pretty pissed off. And rightly so.

and it is areas of health care delivery like this, that centrally government run health care has a well earned reputation for stinking out loud.
04:15pm 25/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5407 posts
Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is abit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.
10:09am 26/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2605 posts
Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is a bit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.


Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.


So numberless deaths. yeah ok. powerful s*** as always vash.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism


Have you? let me give you the quick cap review vash. A famous person saying it wasn't true marxism, is someone saying it wasn't true marxism.
08:30pm 26/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5408 posts
Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.


Except you're forgetting the countless regions invaded by a coalition of said societies, and the democracies toppled by the CIA, and puppet dictators put in. It's all there to read, no conspiracy theories here. They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed alittle too Socialist.
So if you don't follow this coalition's way of doing things, you're an outsider & economically sanctioned, and perhaps invaded or toppled. This might be why certain states attempting Socialism had become so Authoritarian. To keep the USA from intervention in it. (Castro assassination attempts anyone?)

Might just be why North Korea is so Authoritarian & Militaristic as well. The USA aren't a nation of freedom & peace, and it will keep invading nations to sustain it's economy.
11:23am 27/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
810 posts

Have you checked out Pyongyang, and rest of NK on google maps?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@39.0279722,125.7692865,9948m/data=!3m1!1e3

"The Central Bureau of Statistics of North Korea conducted the most recent census in 2008, where the population reached 24 million inhabitants.[1] The population density is 199.54 inhabitants per square kilometre"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_North_Korea


10:14pm 27/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25910 posts
Got a link to that Facebook thing you were talking about? Or was that just more posturing bulls***?
10:25pm 27/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39047 posts
FAR more interesting good news: Non-believers by far Australia’s largest single ‘religious’ group:
After today’s release of Census data showing that non-believers make up 30.1% of the population – easily overtaking the previously-highest response “Catholic” for the first time in Census history – the Atheist Foundation of Australia says it is time to stop pandering to religious minorities and take religion out of politics.
12:05am 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5410 posts

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/rate-of-global-sea-level-rise-jumps-50-per-cent-in-two-decades-20170626-gwyu52.html

Meanwhile it's entirely hysteria over the Trump administration. No basis for that hysteria at all. 'Everything is fine'
11:53am 28/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12817 posts
It was launched in an effort to understand why an accelerated rate of sea-level rise, between 1993 and 2014, had not been accurately represented in data from altimeters [satellite instruments used to measure height or altitude], despite accelerating contributions from ice sheets.


Perhaps there is another reason why ?
What do you think PornoPete ?
01:06pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5411 posts


Perhaps there is another reason why ?
What do you think PornoPete ?


See this is the problem. You're looking to people who study law (which seems to be alot of politicians as well) instead of actual scientists & other experts.
It sounds like you believe what you want to believe.
02:44pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3289 posts
Merlins Beard! Merely half a scroll down from this:

This might be why certain states attempting Socialism had become so Authoritarian. To keep the USA from intervention in it. (Castro assassination attempts anyone?) Might just be why North Korea is so Authoritarian & Militaristic as well. The USA aren't a nation of freedom & peace, and it will keep invading nations to sustain it's economy.


It sounds like you believe what you want to believe Vash old bean! ;)

That religious census data is great to see, maybe we're turning the tide on the old man in the sky.
05:08pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5412 posts
It sounds like you believe what you want to believe Vash old bean! ;)


Naturally. I don't refute scientific consensus though. Many seem to of a certain political persuasion.
05:40pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2606 posts
Yes you do vash. Yes you do. nearly continually.

RE Census, it would be interesting to see if they calculate the effect putting it first had.
06:51pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5413 posts
Yes you do vash. Yes you do. nearly continually.


Yeah? Tell me three times i have.
07:33pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2607 posts
Everytime you say it wasn't true marxism.

This steaming pile of conspiracy theory.
Except you're forgetting the countless regions invaded by a coalition of said societies, and the democracies toppled by the CIA, and puppet dictators put in. It's all there to read, no conspiracy theories here. They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed alittle too Socialist.


When you post to a f*****g maoist (as in we should follow the teachings of mao zedong) website to tally deaths of capitalism.

But you do have the marxist approved attitude to climate change. Well done.
08:16pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25911 posts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

Not really what I'd call a conspiracy theory. In any case I don't really see how the things you listed can be classed as ignoring scientific consensus.
08:32pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5414 posts
There's no scientific consensus on Marxism, PP. I think there's been more criticism of Capitalism by prominent scientists than Marxism, actually. Einstein & Stephen Hawking, for example.

I have never said it's 'Not true Marxism' but rather 'Not true Socialism' which is a fact if you care to look deeper into how Government works in 'Socialist' countries. But no, since the Nazis have Socialist in their party name they are surely Socalists, and the same for North Korea & co. Also, the Chinese Communist Party are surely Communist.
Marxism isn't a system of it's own, it's a method of achieving Full Communism.

And if you don't know about the CIA disposing of leaders i believe you have your hand firmly in the sand once again.


as in we should follow the teachings of mao zedong


Noone said that, nor did the website's article. Do you care to address the death tolls or you're just doing your silly diversion tactics?

I'm beginning to doubt you have read anything of Marx at all, since you're incredibly ignorant of the subject.
08:44pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
153 posts
Anyone that doesn't accept the reality of climate change and our effects on the planet should be classed in the same category as anti-vaxxers,anti-fluoridation nutters and the flat earth society.
08:48pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2608 posts
Not really what I'd call a conspiracy theory.


Yeah, now all you need to do is establish that capitalism requires US support of the contras.

If you can't do that you could try calling me racist again fpot.

Noone said that, nor did the website's article.


yeah the website has mao in the URL and here is a quote from the ideology page numb nuts

Maoism-Third Worldism is an unofficial name for what is theorized as the fourth stage in the evolution of Marxist theory. There is no official title, but Maoism-Third Worldism is the most common one. The difficulty arises out of the vague beginnings of the ideology. As Mao Zedong fell to revisionism, just as Stalin had, Lin Biao gave a few ideas as to how the next stage could be formulated. He unfortunately died before any real concrete theory could be put forward. The most important work, representing a kind of foundation is “Long Live the Victory of People’s War”. In it he outlined a general stance of the First versus the Third World. Since then a group called the Maoist International Movement and several independent authors have contributed ideas.


Yeah its a maoist website jackass.
08:55pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25912 posts
Yeah, now all you need to do is establish that capitalism requires US support of the contras.
I could have sworn those goal posts were just over there a second ago!

When did I call you racist? I simply pointed out the fact that the first world is guilty of some pretty dastardly exploitation of the third world which tends to be ignored by everyone (including myself) in a rather f***ed up way.

You gonna mention some of the scientific consensus Vash ignores soon or you just gonna keep crying about things that didn't happen?
09:08pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5415 posts
Yeah its a maoist website jackass.


And how's that relevant to the death toll of Capitalism?
09:25pm 28/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2609 posts
I could have sworn those goal posts were just over there a second ago!


There is, earlier in this thread, a link to a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies do not go to war with each other. And this fact of closer economic ties underpins the EU.

That would of course require reading.

Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong. You've now responded with a link to the contra's. It's not my fault you couldn't divine the actual goal posts and made up your own buddy.

You've called me a nazi apologist fpot, so there was that thing about the nazi's being quite racist.

I simply pointed out the fact that the first world is guilty of some pretty dastardly exploitation of the third world which tends to be ignored by everyone (including myself) in a rather f***ed up way.


The third world is almost uniformly improved by adopting capitalism fpot. I have no idea what you suppose the relevance of that is to this discussion.

I don't particularly feel like teasing more out of him, but I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that his attitude toward nuclear power has absolutely no basis in fact, and there is a strong chance his attitude toward GMO's is the same.

And how's that relevant to the death toll of Capitalism?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA you need to stop talking about propaganda with a straight face vash.
09:30pm 28/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39048 posts
There's no scientific consensus on Marxism, PP. I think there's been more criticism of Capitalism by prominent scientists than Marxism, actually. Einstein & Stephen Hawking, for example.
windmills do not work that way
09:34pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5416 posts
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA you need to stop talking about propaganda with a straight face vash.


Oh ok, so you dispute those deaths ever happened? And they cannot be caused by Capitalism?
And why is that PP?
Why are deaths under 'Socialism' caused by Socialism, but deaths under Capitalism are not caused by Capitalism?
09:41pm 28/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25913 posts

Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong. You've now responded with a link to the contra's. It's not my fault you couldn't divine the actual goal posts and made up your own buddy.
He did, but that wasn't the part you quoted. You quoted the part about the US interfering with democratically elected governments and called it a conspiracy theory. It quite clearly isn't which I pointed out with the link about the contras. I guess if shifting the goal posts doesn't work the first time, just shift them again!

And I'm more than willing to admit that calling you a Nazi apologist was a total d*** move if you could start mentioning some of this continuously ignored scientific consensus. Did you mean he just engages in thinking that may be considered unscientific at times?
09:54pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5417 posts
Vash however responded that US requires war in order to maintain itself. I've linked to a consensus showing that is wrong.


Yeah Wikipedia isn't exactly a scientific consensus, and this also depends on your political perspective. But i'll roll with it. So why did the U.S invade Iraq? and continues to bash on the war drums for whom ever is the latest perceived enemy. Is North Korea next up for their dose of 'freedom'?
Look beyond the media rhetoric. North Korea isn't invading anyone, it's the U.S doing so.
10:14pm 28/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18396 posts
When hasn't America been at war with some country or part there-of?

Seriously. It's pretty much at war almost all the time. I'm not sure how you can say America doesn't require war, when in almost every year since America was created .. it has been at war.
S*** America even goes to war with itself when nobody else seems worthwhile.

America might not need to be at war, but we don't really know for sure do we. I mean they had a period there around 1935-1940 were they managed to not throw rocks at someone .. and well their economy also didn't go well during that time. 1941 comes around, Oh hey a war, lets go stick our toes in!

01:33am 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25914 posts
Well they were pretty staunch about their neutrality until that day which will live in infamy. There's no doubt WW2 had a lot to do with the USA becoming immensely powerful though and it seems they've been chasing that dragon ever since.
02:39am 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2610 posts
When hasn't America been at war with some country or part there-of?


Equally toll when doesn't America get in trouble for not intervening. loads of people have been saying there needs to be intervention in Syria.

I guess if shifting the goal posts doesn't work the first time, just shift them again!

Oh what complete bulls*** fpot. The conspiracy theory I was plainly drawing attention to is the claim that capitalism requires war. There is a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, therefore demonstrating quite clearly capitalism does not require war. The quote is a straight forward response and entails the claim capitalism requires war. The goal post haven't been moved at all fpot. The claim is capitalism requires war, and when pointing out that is obviously and demonstrably false and you can find hundreds of social scientists willing to sign up, the response was because the US has interfered in countries internal affairs it shows capitalism requires war.

and there is a field of study dedicated to the fact that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other.

In case you missed the 5000 posts, Vash rather plainly does not accept that empirical fact.

and lets not forget I also quoted this bit
They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed a little too Socialist.


Anyway if your happy defending someone who literally quotes maoist propaganda as someone who has a deep respect for science, keep on pluggin.
07:21am 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5418 posts
Heh.

There is a social science consensus that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, therefore demonstrating quite clearly capitalism does not require war


Noone is disputing those social scientists, PP. It does not refute the claim that Capitalism requires war. If that weren't the case, the USA wouldn't be further increasing their already immense military budget, and talking of the next nation to invade before their even finished up with a war they're already in.

Eisenhower warned how much power military industry would have over Government. How far the Republican party have fallen.

the response was because the US has interfered in countries internal affairs it shows capitalism requires war. and there is a field of study dedicated to the fact that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other.


'interfered in countries internal affairs' that's some nice politician language you got there.

Anyway if your happy defending someone who literally quotes maoist propaganda as someone who has a deep respect for science, keep on pluggin.


I didn't defend the maoist. So those death numbers are just propaganda eh?
09:15am 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2611 posts
didn't defend the maoist. So those death numbers are just propaganda eh?


You don't defend the maoist but you insist his numbers are accurate. coherence where for art thou.

but on the nub of your question, do I dispute "US Imperialism" has caused 350 million deaths in a sense comparable to socialism's 150 million. Yes. If for no other reason that figure represents more than triple the entire body count for both sides of both world wars. I'd say it comfortably outstrips all deaths of every war the US has ever been in. Combine that with the fact the guy claiming it loves arguably the greatest mass killer in history, Yeah its propaganda you imbecile.

Noone is disputing those social scientists, PP. It does not refute the claim that Capitalism requires war. If that weren't the case, the USA wouldn't be further increasing their already immense military budget, and talking of the next nation to invade before their even finished up with a war they're already in.


I rest my case fpot.

Riddle me this then vash. If capitalism requires war, why is capitalism becoming more ingrained in the global economy and wars reducing. If capitalism requires war, why do capitalist nations seek each other out and make agreements that basically rule war out. why would they, contrary to their self interest (as you cast it), reduce the range of people they could go to war with?
In short, why is it that as capitalism spreads the number of wars goes down? If it requires war this is a counter intuitive result to say the least.

Given the empirical claim of those social scientists that democratic capitalist societies don't go to war with each other, and the fact that war is becoming rarer and less lethal (stephen pinkers "the better angels of our nature" is an excellent resource on this claim) those social scientists credibly claim that the way to reduce war is for everyone to be democratic capitalists. you cannot possibly claim you agree with that.

So until you can construct a plausible empirical account of why they are wrong, you are in unambiguous climate change denier zone.
06:28pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25915 posts
Yeah well good you two talk that one out. Still reckon you were calling the CIA incursions a conspiracy theory and then changed your tune though but hey who cares.

In other circling the drain news, check out this video that even Goebbels would be proud of -

06:40pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25916 posts
Forget Cardinal Pell. Steve Smith scandal incoming!

https://image.ibb.co/kmF4hk/steve_smith_ummmm.png
07:15pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
811 posts
USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel. Politicians gain credit for going to war. Having an agreed enemy brings people together. Lot's of benefits of going to war. Maybe it would be more justified if the wars were fought on their own borders instead all over the world. It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.
07:28pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2612 posts
least you managed to avoid nazis this time fpot. Progress of a kind.
07:39pm 29/06/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25917 posts
Nah I mentioned Goebbels.
07:40pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2613 posts
You didn't call me him, still progress ;)
07:53pm 29/06/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12819 posts
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH dey callt me a nutzi

Walmart (WMT) is telling trucking companies that it will no longer do business with them if they continue moving goods for Amazon (AMZN).

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-28/it-begins-walmart-warns-truckers-it-will-no-longer-work-them-if-they-move-goods-amaz

This is how Capitalism does War.

08:07pm 29/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39049 posts
USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel.
and now they "protect" Saudi Arabia! what are the chances of that coming back to bite them in the ass, practically zero I bet
It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.
I actually disagree that it's in their culture. I spent two years in the US and have family that have lived there for 30+ years. Almost noone I know (all pinko liberals of course) remotely supports the US war efforts). Even in Ohio I only knew maybe one person I can think of that was "pro war" and it was because he was in the Army reserves and really wanted to go fight.

The problem is that it's in their ECONOMY. Despite not knowing many pro war people I know several that were in the military industrial complex - one of the PhDs I met at OSU graduated & then took a job working at Pratt & Whitney (almost certainly on military jet engines). Another mate was a buyer for Lockheed. Ohio had a big air force base with a huge research group) that was a big employer from the university (my girlfriend got to tour it, it sounded f*****g awesome, lots of cool future tech research projects going on). Each state has their own porkbarrel projects for military spending (OH IIRC was a big source of federal money for military jet engines).

So selling arms to total ideological enemies like Saudi Arabia - who in EVERY RESPECT literally everything about America would be opposed to, except they have metric f****hittonnes of money and are willing to spend it buying s*** to presumably go blow up their less wealthy but equally crappy neighbours - is important because it means their totally out-of-proportion-with-their-needs military spending can be justified to the very many citizens that depend on it for a job and their friends and family etc.
08:10pm 29/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7663 posts
Meanwhile in f***tard high house price straya

08:14pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5419 posts

USA has huge industry invested in supporting war, and protects Israel. Politicians gain credit for going to war. Having an agreed enemy brings people together. Lot's of benefits of going to war. Maybe it would be more justified if the wars were fought on their own borders instead all over the world. It's in their culture, like guns, flags and eagles.


Indeed. The U.S is all about Profit, Guns,War and more guns. Capitalism fuels war, and it loves it, and therefor, the people love it.

PP seems to love answering questions with more questions, so i think i'm wasting my time here.

On an end note, here's some documents that can't be interpreted as 'propaganda' and how the U.S conducts its foreign policy. It seems it loves to wage war on nations that don't fit neatly into it's own ideology. It even topples democratically elected leaders. How undemocratic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB437/docs/Doc%204%20-%20Kissinger%20to%20Nixon%20re%20Nov%206%20NSC%20meeting.pdf

Nixon's quote

http://i.imgur.com/B7lWcgE.jpghttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

CIA on Whitlam.

Could provide links all night on U.S Imperialism.
08:19pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2614 posts
I note how none of those things require capitalism to go to war, and are US related only and don't come anywhere near 350 million deaths.

you're a f*****g moron vash. A poster boy for why there should be propaganda, because it clearly works.

Most hysterically of all you think you've pwned me don't you.

The CIA got goff.

There you go fpot. put some flesh on the bones of that one.
08:29pm 29/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39050 posts

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH dey callt me a nutzi


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-28/it-begins-walmart-warns-truckers-it-will-no-longer-work-them-if-they-move-goods-amaz

This is how Capitalism does War.

well, that's how free market capitalism does war.

That sounds like it has massive potential to trip anti-competitive laws, surely. I mean, in a properly regulated market.
08:35pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5420 posts
Warfare comes in many forms, PP. You should know this.
The U.S doesn't just invade countries.

Also it's typical of you to attack the messenger rather than the message. The article on the maoist website is quite sound & logical regardless of the poster's beliefs.

The numbers also don't include the immense amount of deaths that occur when people die from unemployment or homelessness, or being unable to afford surgery or cancer treatments. Especially in the USA with lacking social welfare programs.

Marxists at least, would like to prevent the population from ever reaching that state. Such evil.

The CIA got goff.


And many others. But keep on trying champ.
08:48pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18397 posts

Equally toll when doesn't America get in trouble for not intervening. loads of people have been saying there needs to be intervention in Syria.


Doesn't change the fact that America has been at war with someone for most of it's existence as a nation. It's essentially country of war, sure they do lots of other stuff, but war is their most consistent year after year activity.
09:02pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2615 posts
oh so the CIA really did get goff.

Carry on.

Also it's typical of you to attack the messenger rather than the message


Naw that is adorable, why can't you just listen to the person who has a vested interest in making the US look as evil as possible when he is making the US as evil as possible.

The numbers also don't include the immense amount of deaths that occur when people die from unemployment or homelessness, or being unable to afford surgery or cancer treatments. Especially in the USA with lacking social welfare programs.


Yes alleviating death from poverty is something marxism can make a real claim to. In other, totally unrelated, news Venezuelans lost an average of 19lbs. The government said they are really cracking down on childhood obesity.
09:04pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2616 posts
Doesn't change the fact that America has been at war with someone for most of it's existence as a nation. It's essentially country of war, sure they do lots of other stuff, but war is their most consistent year after year activity.


I was going to respond to this, but I think now you need to take five minutes and think about what you've said.

Take this with you when you think. we live now in Pax Americana

the times we live in are, as an empirical fact, the most prosperous, most safe, least war like, most egalitarian times that have ever existed for human kind.

When you have some cogent rebuttal to that last sentence we can talk more Toll.
09:13pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5421 posts
Yes alleviating death from poverty is something marxism can make a real claim to


Indeed it can. Considering a poor country like Cuba, with all those economic sanctions, still provides universal health care & has little to no homelessness.
The richest country in the world, on the other hand...

Not to mention the countless lives saved by Marxist based policy that swept the world with the union movement & vast social policies, built into Capitalism.
09:22pm 29/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2617 posts
yep poverty is totally not a thing in Cuba. You're like a goldfish.

There is no talking point you have that hasn't been comprehensively destroyed vash.

but enough of Cuba having literally no poverty which is why they have cars from the 1950's.

Tell us more about the CIA and Goff. What really happened in '75.

Also tell us more about how voting for Trump is the result of "P R O P A G A N D A"
10:03pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5422 posts
Yes alleviating death from poverty


Since you seem to forget what you type, you said, death from poverty.
Not poverty itself.
Cubans aren't dying from poverty, they are fed and housed.
10:21pm 29/06/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2087 posts
Who here wants to see tone back at the helm before the next election? I know I do.
02:02pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40643 posts
tone plz
02:37pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
812 posts

I can't read all this Cuban stuff, but does Vash arguing that Cuba is a nice place to live?

Maybe it is, I'll check out the property prices.

This looks ok for 75k http://cuba.realigro.com/for-sale/house/la-havana-1/26742.html

http://media.realigro.com/annunci/img/106046.JPG

Couldn't find anything between 1 and 2 million. Must be sold out.


05:58pm 30/06/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7664 posts
If Tony Abbott comes back then this country is officially f***ed.

If Abbott was fair dinkum he would get behind a new candidate to roll Malcolm (which wouldn't be hard at the moment) and not run for PM again.
06:44pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5423 posts
Vash arguing that Cuba is a nice place to live?


In relative terms, yes.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with property prices there, Nmag. Property prices are generally low in poor countries.
06:48pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
813 posts

I'm not partial to holidays or living in 3rd world ghettos. I feel enriched already.

But it's just interesting to see what you can buy for what in various places. For example, Maine and Colorado look 'nice' to me.

Bourke NSW is not my cup of tea, but it's an option:

I wouldn't buy heritage listed but wow, looks great:

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-bourke-123276130

600k

https://i1.au.reastatic.net/456x342/37f9c03f71c60a2c609977b70034bbfce4b202e63b989071336a42461b6cf8fc/main.jpg

or

80k

https://i1.au.reastatic.net/456x342/9954e73ac8a1c1d29e22ecfaccfa199971714b40b8b27b8910bc4117fa036c0c/main.jpg

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-nsw-bourke-125671022

An actual house with land for 80k. Imagine Friday night in that street... wooo there be some parties going down there.

Isn't it interesting at all, the variances, the options.


08:42pm 30/06/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39052 posts


Since you seem to forget what you type, you said, death from poverty.
Not poverty itself.
Cubans aren't dying from poverty, they are fed and housed.
Everything I know about Cuba I know from the Big Picture

'fed and housed' for some definition of fed and housed
09:01pm 30/06/17 Permalink
Vash
5424 posts
The exact definition of fed & housed. No luxuries.
Free market economies would leave many of these people dead of poverty, as is the case in Africa.
10:19pm 30/06/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2618 posts
No no Vash

You're wrong about Cuba, you know as per usual. Cuba has had perennial issues with food security, here is a 2005 study showing 41% people in hospital were undernourished and 11% were severely undernourished. they're so well fed they have to be hospitalized.

The reality is if Cubans want to be 'housed and fed' they move to Miami.

Their agricultural sector was destroyed by the Castro regime, they have survived as long as they have by hand outs from Russia, which also suffered devastating famines as a result of idiot marxist ideas about agriculture.

But enough you being wrong, again.

Tell us more about how the CIA brought down Gough Whitlam.
01:33pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5425 posts
Interesting how Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the USA.
Why is that PP?

Such a poor devastated nation would surely have the streets littered with homeless & people dying of poverty, with a poor outcome on life expectancy.

But no. Also, you're forgetting the economic sanctions placed on the country, surely that impacts the ability of the Government to provide enough quality food for it's poorest. Perhaps why there's alot of malnutrition.

Marxism is so evil it's priority is ensuring the poorest are looked after.


Tell us more about how the CIA brought down Gough Whitlam.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Whitlam+CIA
01:48pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2619 posts
I'm not certain what you think that means Vash. North Korea's life expectancy is in the ball park. Guess that must mean food shortages aren't a thing in North Korea as well.

People can live for a long time at a subsistence level vash. Doesn't mean they don't have a large array of non-fatal health complications.

Also, you're forgetting the economic sanctions placed on the country


Who knew trying to import nukes from Russia would be one the USA's buttons right?

I can google a bunch of idiot conspiracy websites I'd like you to explain it. How did the CIA bring down Whitlam? Whats the true story. I thought it was as a result of being unable to secure supply through the senate and refusing to call an election. But apparently the CIA engineered that loophole in our constitution hey?
02:40pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5426 posts

North Korea's life expectancy is in the ball park.


Actually, No, it isn't in the ball park. Your argument that Marxism hasn't done anything to alleviate death from poverty is simply wrong, PP.
People aren't dying of poverty in Cuba. Their life expectancy is on par with the richest country in the world, and they have an almost 100% literacy rate.

On the Whitlam thing here's another article for you to ignore

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-16/gough-whitlam-ordered-asio-to-stop-talking-to-cia/6859734
02:59pm 01/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12821 posts
Whitlam was a Fiscal Conservative, like Rudd.

Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator Scott Pruitt is proceeding with a plan to conduct a debate among scientists within the agency to refine the government’s understanding of the climate change phenomenon.

“The administrator believes that we will be able to recruit the best in the fields which study climate and will organize a specific process in which these individuals … provide back-and-forth critique of specific new reports on climate science,” the source said.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/epas-scott-pruitt-hold-climate-change-debate-first-announced-breitbart-news-daily/

Thats not going to end well for one side.
03:21pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2620 posts
Marxism hasn't done anything to alleviate death from poverty vash. People still do starve to death in Marxist countries, and Cuba is reliant on food handouts, Ironically enough from the USA. They cannot grow their own food.

and they have an almost 100% literacy rate.


Ok great, what does that get them exactly? They aren't able to do anything with because most books are banned. Anything that isn't glory to the revolution is put on s*** list and you can get yourself killed reading it. The soviet union had a high literacy rate as well, and also reading the wrong books would get you killed as well. It's like it a pattern or something.

You're just wrong Vash. Marxism has exacerbated poverty where ever it has gone, and to the extent it provides food for everyone it is invariably not enough.

OMG the CIA had a well founded fear that ASIO was penetrated by the Soviets. Notice now absolutely nothing in that article gets you to "the CIA took down Gough Whitlam"

The amount you need to read article you link to.
03:26pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5427 posts
Oh we've just gone full circle. Heh. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also, The USA imports most of its food, too. Not like that isn't a common thing. As far as i know Cuba required most food aid during storms.

Notice now absolutely nothing in that article gets you to "the CIA took down Gough Whitlam"


There's that ignorance again.

Whitlam accused the CIA of having made financial contributions to his political opponents, and it was no secret that the US had serious concerns about the Whitlam administration. On November 9, 1975, a CIA operative in Washington named Ted Shackley, through an ASIO liaison officer, outlined American concerns about Whitlam and his government, which it cabled to ASIO and passed on to Whitlam. "Of course, Whitlam doesn't see this as a big concern at all," Dr Blaxland said. "He reads the cable and says, well, write back and explain that their concerns are misplaced." Two days later, the Governor General, Sir John Kerr, sacked Whitlam.


Could be he was sacked due to his antagonism with the CIA. Noone can say for sure (Except the CIA i guess) but it sure has basis.
03:42pm 01/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2621 posts
The USA imports most of its food, too

No it absolutely doesn't. Cuba, lives on the handouts of other countries Vash. The most food aid cuba required was during the 90's after the collapse of the soviet union. They have been having consistent food shortages for the last 50 years. You have to have been living under a rock not to know that.


Could be he was sacked due to his antagonism with the CIA

Yes literally the only thing going on was a memo from the CIA. There are no other reasons which completely explain what happened in '75.

You're in flat out conspiracy theory territory now vash.

Gough Whitlam was sacked to break a constitutional crisis. The CIA had nothing to do with it.
04:14pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13705 posts
Thats not going to end well for one side.


Either way, the scientific consensus will prevail. The consensus isn't honed or arrived at by non-scientists deciding on the outcome of a debate. It's arrived at by the overwhelming preponderance of the reputable scientific literature.
05:59pm 01/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12822 posts
Cuba much like North Korea has had to endure crippling sanctions.
How would Australia be doing if we faced similar sanctions ?

Australia has done very well indeed out of its support for America.
*cough* Pine Gap *cough*
08:45pm 01/07/17 Permalink
taggs
6492 posts
Considering a poor country like Cuba, with all those economic sanctions, still provides universal health care & has little to no homelessness.


Certainly not my experience when I was in Cuba about ten years ago there was plenty of homeless people in Havana. Less in the smaller cities but no more or less than anywhere else of comparable density.
09:46pm 01/07/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10628 posts
Jim science doesn't matter, ask Trump ... Or Turnbull/Abott

Those pesky science people are all left wing liars!!! You know how they lie by measuring stuff ... lies!

Meanwhile ice melt! Fake news.
12:30am 02/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21289 posts
Pretty sure the US produces most of it's food
08:07am 02/07/17 Permalink
Fade2Black
Brisbane, Queensland
5331 posts
The entire midwest of the USA is farm and grazing land Vash... dear god.. plus there is a reason part of LA is called Orange County.. most of the US consumption of fruit and veg is grown along the west coast..
09:47am 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2622 posts
Certainly not my experience when I was in Cuba about ten years ago there was plenty of homeless people in Havana.


CIA plants to undermine the appearance of the workers paradise.

Orange County


I thought it was a spray tan reference.
12:00pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5428 posts

The entire midwest of the USA is farm and grazing land Vash... dear god.. plus there is a reason part of LA is called Orange County.. most of the US consumption of fruit and veg is grown along the west coast..
http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-countries-importing-the-most-food-in-the-world.html

Yet imports the most food in the world.

I'm not saying Cuba is a Marxist paradise. I'm pointing out that it has done very well for how poor it is, relative to poor countries with free market economies.

And considering most social policies were created based off Marxism, it has definitely done more to alleviate poverty than Capitalism, if you look at much of Europe, and Australia.

Capitalism may provide immense wealth for some, but Marxism has allowed that wealth to increase the standards of living of larger amounts of the population rather than a concentrated few. Still needs to be way more done in this area though, especially in the states.
12:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2623 posts
Should it really need to be explained why being the largest importer of food is not the same thing as importing most of your food?

I'm pointing out that it has done very well for how poor it is, relative to poor countries with free market economies.


It simply hasn't though Vash. The standard of living is equally low for everyone there and hasn't progressed since the 1950's. In Africa where you have adequate rule of law to allow markets to form you invariably see the living standard rise. The biggest s***holes in Africa are the result of tinpot Marxist revolutionaries. Libya and Zimbabwe spring to mind.

Australia's wealth is predicated on a competitive capital market helping to create a diversified *private* economy, which is literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.

As for Europe, you need to account for the giant neo-liberal elephant in the room that is the European Union, and the European Central Bank. Again the opposite of Marxist thinking.
03:00pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5430 posts
It simply hasn't though Vash. The standard of living is equally low for everyone there and hasn't progressed since the 1950's.


Debatable. Their GDP growth has been constant except for a dip in the 90s.

Australia's wealth is predicated on a competitive capital market helping to create a diversified *private* economy, which is literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.


Yet it contains an immense amount of policy based on Marxist thinking too. A part of the reason why we have one of the highest standards of living, despite having a considerably weaker economy than the USA.
Our life expectancy is higher (due to universal healthcare) we have more opportunity to holiday, and have more rights in the workplace.

Opposite of Capitalist thinking, wouldn't you say?

Without Marxism, we'd have no weekends, no holidays, lower pay. No rights at work, less worker safety. Capitalism has only been shaped to success due to Marxism, and it will only continue to work if more Marxist policy is implemented, especially as technology replaces Labor.

Also, you'll see the class warfare thing is still alive & well today when you attempt to increase taxes on the rich. The wealthy will say thats class warfare.
Lower pay to the poor and they'll tell you it's good business.
03:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2624 posts
Debatable. Their GDP growth has been constant except for a dip in the 90s.


It really isn't.

Yet it contains an immense amount of policy based on Marxist thinking too. A part of the reason why we have one of the highest standards of living, despite having a considerably weaker economy than the USA.
Our life expectancy is higher (due to universal healthcare) we have more opportunity to holiday, and have more rights in the workplace.


No it isn't. For crying out loud Vash. Before the 1980's float of the dollar and deregulation of the banks, Australia was tied to the fortunes of wool and wheat commodity markets and inflation was up around 17% or something insane (which I might add hurts low income folks the most). Unions kept pushing for wage increases and it became an inflation feedback loop.

That was all broken by Paul Keating/Bob Hawke specifically by introducing an accord to stop the unions pushing for pay increases in exchange for tax cuts. And Keating in particular had to fight the Marxist unionists in the labor movement tooth and nail to do it. Just read his biography.

Universal health care is worthless if you can only pay for Panadol for everyone, the idea is predicated on an economy that can be taxed enough to pay for it. And in Australia that idea (an economy big enough to skim off) is predicated on private capital creating a diversified economy. It cuts against the core hypothesis of Marxism that capital is inherently oppressive. A proper universal health care system was opened up by giving more people access to capital not less.

Anyway, this is becoming a bit mark twain. Go recite the articles of faith dude. Short of God himself coming down and telling you Marxism is f***ed(and even then) you're going to continue wandering around in self inflicted ignorance.
04:19pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5431 posts
It really isn't.


Yeah nah. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gdp+per+capita+cuba

Oh so you mention unions now. Cool, we're making progress. Unions wouldn't exist without Socialists increasing class awareness.
And you certainly can't discount the immense benefit they've provided for us.

Universal health care has done *very* well in Cuba, considering how poor the country is, and it's lack of capital movement. they've been able to afford it. Looking at that life expectancy figure again...

you're going to continue wandering around in self inflicted ignorance.


Same could be said for you, noting the lack of criticisms of Trump, and any mention of the shortcomings of Capitalism. Surely you're capable of some critical analysis and not just political tribalism?

edit, also, relevant:

http://i.imgur.com/iisS2um.png
04:27pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2625 posts
Yeah nah.

their GDP per capita has increased at all therefore WINNING. You're delusional Vash.

Cool, we're making progress. Unions wouldn't exist without Socialists increasing class awareness.


Yes mentioned them to say that Keating had to fight them tooth and nail to actually achieve a positive outcome for workers. Honestly how are you possible?

Universal health care has done *very* well in Cuba, considering how poor the country is, and it's lack of capital movement. they've been able to afford it. Looking at that life expectancy figure again...


Universal health care in Cuba is ordinary at best vash. Really is amazing you don't make the link when the next part of the sentence is
considering how poor the country is

I wonder if Marxism plays a role there. Awesome how we aren't talking about Australia's health care arrangments


Same could be said for you, noting the lack of criticisms of Trump, and any mention of the shortcomings of Capitalism. Surely you're capable of some critical analysis and not just political tribalism?


There's that unintentional self-defeating humour again.
05:05pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5432 posts
their GDP per capita has increased at all therefore WINNING. You're delusional Vash.


Which is er, directly tied to increased standards of living you dolt.

Awesome how we aren't talking about Australia's health care arrangments


I thank Marxism for both Cuba's health outcomes and Australia's health outcomes.
Your point that it requires Capitalism to accumulate enough wealth to run a universal health system is wrong, PP. As i just pointed out, Cuba has managed to do it and matches life expectancy of the USA, which any well adjusted person would say is a good thing.

Yes mentioned them to say that Keating had to fight them tooth and nail to actually achieve a positive outcome for workers.


Ignoring them benefits again, lets cherry pick this onesie.

I wonder if Marxism plays a role there.


Nah. Otherwise we would have to blame Capitalism for any country that is poor under it, that wouldn't be smart would it?
05:14pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2626 posts
Which is er, directly tied to increased standards of living you dolt.


Yes Marxism would totally agree that increasing personal wealth is how to increase standards of living.

Your point that it requires Capitalism to accumulate enough wealth to run a universal health system is wrong, PP.


No it isn't. If you want to compare health outcomes between Australia and Cuba go right ahead. I know which system I'd prefer to use.

Australia's health care system actively punishes people who can afford private health care but don't pay for it. So Marxist. It's almost likes its predicated on living within means or something.

lets cherry pick this onesie.


Yes this one time happens to be the time we created open capital markets in Australia. I mean if you're just going to focus on the most all encompassing change in Australia's economic history since ww2, who can have a serious debate?

Otherwise we would have to blame Capitalism for any country that is poor under it, that wouldn't be smart would it?


o_0 if you say so Vash. We can sit down and do a country by country analysis of who has the best living standards and see how capitalism fairs if you'd like.

Don't think you're going to like the outcome.
05:21pm 02/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12824 posts
Universal Healthcare is only as good as the Economy that can afford it.
Stands to reason Cubas is not going to be too good.


05:32pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5433 posts
Yes Marxism would totally agree that increasing personal wealth is how to increase standards of living.


Oh so Marxism has never existed then, since all 'Socialist' countries allowed people personal wealth accumulation.

No it isn't. If you want to compare health outcomes between Australia and Cuba go right ahead. I know which system I'd prefer to use.


Thats the thing, i don't need to. They're both based on Marxist ideology, and ive been happy with outcomes of both countries considering the economic conditions. And with that, saving many people living in poverty from death.

Don't think you're going to like the outcome.


If you manage to find a country that is Laissez-faire Capitalism, sure.
Some even consider the #1 country to live in the world as Socialist, that being Norway. But you'd argue against that wouldn't you? You'd begin looking at the neoliberal policies within that society.

So, follow your own line of reasoning, and look at the Marxist policies within Capitalism and the benefits they've had. I've already acknowledged the usefulness of markets.
05:41pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2627 posts
Oh so Marxism has never existed then, since all 'Socialist' countries allowed people personal wealth accumulation.

You can't possibly be serious. Marxism is explicitly and profoundly against the accumulation of personal wealth (capital). You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


Thats the thing, i don't need to. They're both based on Marxist ideology, and ive been happy with outcomes of both countries considering the economic conditions. And with that, saving many people living in poverty from death.


You do, because Australia's health policy is not in any way Marxist. It actively encourages people to get private health cover, and is designed to get the private sector to do as much as possible. It is literally the opposite of Marxist.

If you manage to find a country that is Laissez-faire Capitalism, sure


You mean like the US.

I've already acknowledged the usefulness of markets.


Marxism is flatly and uncontroversially against markets. This is an admission you're not much of a Marxist.
06:05pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5434 posts
You can't possibly be serious


You laugh when i state a country isn't real Socialism. So now you're attempting to argue that Cuba isn't real Socialism.

You do, because Australia's health policy is not in any way Marxist. It actively encourages people to get private health cover, and is designed to get the private sector to do as much as possible. It is literally the opposite of Marxist.


Completely false. Private health is a luxury option in Australia, nowhere near a necessity. Public health is where most of the work is done.

You mean like the US.


As neoliberal the U.S is, it still isn't anywhere near Laissez-faire Capitalism.

This is an admission you're not much of a Marxist.


I see the benefits of both. Marx said Capitalism is great for development, and then we convert to Socialism & eventually Communism.
06:21pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2628 posts
Private health is a luxury option in Australia, nowhere near a necessity. Public health is where most of the work is done.


I think by completely false you mean exactly accurate. Why is the medicare levy greater than a private health insurance policy then vash?

You laugh when i state a country isn't real Socialism. So now you're attempting to argue that Cuba isn't real Socialism.


Cuba doesn't allow the accumulation of personal wealth. Castro confiscated all property when he came to power. That was sort of the whole thing.

You literally have no idea about Marxism if you think its ok with accumulating personal wealth.

As neoliberal the U.S is, it still isn't anywhere near Laissez-faire Capitalism.


Why not? Capitalism is not the absence of all law.

Marx said Capitalism is great for development, and then we convert to Socialism & eventually Communism.


You just have no idea do you.
06:33pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5435 posts
Why is the medicare levy greater than a private health insurance policy then vash?


Except it isn't. You have excesses and yearly limitations on private and other costs on top. Then you're forgetting many GPs bulk bill, the PBS keeps medicine cheap for all, and public hospitals do most of the work.
Private health has very little impact on Australian health outcomes. Private provides mostly optometry, dental & luxury hospital care.

I don't support private as i see it as another industry to grow and eventually convince Government to shrink the capabilities of public health.

Cuba doesn't allow the accumulation of personal wealth. Castro confiscated all property when he came to power. That was sort of the whole thing.


If you're being paid a wage you're accumulating wealth, PP. Marx both sees the benefit of this & eventually wants to see it as something that isnt required (Full communism)

You really haven't read any Marx at all, have you?

Why not? Capitalism is not the absence of all law.


Laissez-faire is a complete lack of regulation of the markets, which is pure Capitalism. No unions, or Marxist interventions. Certainly not a desirable system.
06:41pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2629 posts
Except it isn't.


Yeah it is. go to iselect and chose a policy for "tax purposes" you giant jackass.

Then you're forgetting many GPs bulk bill,


The laughs never have to stop. I know I can't walk down the street without tripping over a bulk billing GP.

If you're being paid a wage you're accumulating wealth, PP. Marx both sees the benefit of this & eventually wants to see it as something that isnt required (Full communism)


This is concrete ironclad proof that you can't possibly have read any Marx at all. He very clearly states that being paid a wage that never lets you get a capital asset are the precise conditions of servitude communism is designed to break.

I've honestly never encountered someone who so perfectly encompasses the concept in the Dunning–Kruger effect.

It is just perfection. You will talk about people being ignorant and then spout s*** like that. *the point* of Marx is the inability of the proletariat to convert their wages into capital assets.

Laissez-faire is a complete lack of regulation of the markets, which is pure Capitalism.


But markets require laws Vash.
07:26pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5436 posts
Yeah it is. go to iselect and chose a policy for "tax purposes" you giant jackass.


Aaand you're ignoring all the other costs on top. And the immense benefits public health provides for less cost.

He very clearly states that being paid a wage that never lets you get a capital asset are the precise conditions of servitude communism is designed to break.


They're still able to accumulate wealth, PP, and you said they aren't allowed to. Marxism is a road to Communism, and on the way there the idea is to get more value, or wealth, for your labor. Eventually currency won't be required.

But markets require laws Vash.


Probably, i dont know too much about Laissez-faire, but according to wiki: it's an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs, and subsidies.
Ayn Rand said, "The only action which a government can take to protect free competition is: Laissez-faire.

I think we can all disagree with that one (Except faceman, probably)
07:58pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2630 posts
Aaand you're ignoring all the other costs on top.


What are you even talking about Vash. Are you trying to say that private health insurance is actually provided for by the public or something? Its a clear cut case of trying to incentivize people paying for their own health care Vash. With the explicit goal of reducing the demand on the public system. Literally the opposite of Marxist thinking.

They're still able to accumulate wealth, PP, and you said they aren't allowed to


No they aren't Vash. Most property is owned by the state and they will not sell it. There was a huge round of confiscation of farm lands etc when Castro came to power. You cannot possibly not know this.

Marxism is a road to Communism, and on the way there the idea is to get more value, or wealth, for your labor.


It just isn't Vash. The idea is to make "wealth" redundant. You are literally talking about the opposite of the idea

Probably, i dont know too much about Laissez-faire


Clearly.
08:09pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5437 posts
This is getting abit tiring.

With the explicit goal of reducing the demand on the public system.


Yet public handles the majority of health outcomes in Australia. Try again.

No they aren't Vash

You cannot possibly not know this.


Money is wealth PP. And i do know this, and it isn't relevant to what you said.

It just isn't Vash. The idea is to make "wealth" redundant. You are literally talking about the opposite of the idea


Correct. Marxism is a road to making wealth redundant. That's the end goal. We're not there yet, not even close. So Marxists promote getting more wealth for the working classes until the correct material conditions are met to eliminate the need for wealth & the consumption economy.
08:29pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2631 posts
Yet public handles the majority of health outcomes in Australia. Try again.


Dude the public health system accounts for about 65% of all hospital beds, but most specialists try to work with private patients as much as possible. You don't have any figures to back that claim up, and I can point to a very specific health policy clearly aimed at getting people out of the public health system. Which cannot be justified in Marxist terms. Australia's health system is in no way Marxist.

This is becoming a case of you're not even wrong. The answers you're giving make no sense at all. It's not even clear you're talking about the same topic.

Money is wealth PP. And i do know this, and it isn't relevant to what you said.


How many Cuban billionaires are there vash? *edit* not counting the castro brothers */edit*

So Marxists promote getting more wealth for the working classes until the correct material conditions are met to eliminate the need for wealth & the consumption economy.


So Marxists are trying to make as many working class billionaires as possible right?
08:50pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5438 posts
but most specialists try to work with private patients as much as possible.


The best surgeons work both in public & private hospitals, where needed. Nothing to do with 'trying' to work with private patients. It's where the requirement is, and if the patient requires the specialist and is paying premium for private hospital access, then they should get it.
The point is, the public system handles majority of health issues, via GPs & public hospitals. Regardless of a person's wealth, which is based off Marxism.


How many Cuban billionaires are there vash?


How is this relevant at all? Money is wealth, PP, regardless of the amount of it. You said they weren't allowed wealth.

So Marxists are trying to make as many working class billionaires as possible right?


No. Just getting the full value of their labor.
09:31pm 02/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2632 posts
The point is, the public system handles majority of health issues, via GPs & public hospitals. Regardless of a person's wealth, which is based off Marxism.


Vash the ABS states that about 60% of Australians over the age of 18 have private health insurance. This is because of a range of policies designed to get people to pay for their own health care.

Availability of health care is not an especially Marxist idea, and Marxist principles do not get used to deliver healthcare in Australia. Just stop. You're wrong, and don't know what you're talking about.

How is this relevant at all? Money is wealth, PP, regardless of the amount of it. You said they weren't allowed wealth.


I said they aren't allowed to accumulate wealth Vash, If people are allowed to accumulate wealth you'd expect some people to become more wealthy than others. People get paid what the state determines they require to pay for basic necessities under the cuban system. It is a perverse definition of wealth to state people who never get more than they need to get by for the week are wealthy Vash.

No. Just getting the full value of their labor.


They can't get the full value of their labour by being paid according to Marx because all value is labour.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.
09:38pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5439 posts
Availability of health care is not an especially Marxist idea


Actually it is, PP. Universal health care is directly based off Socialist ideology.
So i think you should just stop now, you're clutching at straws at this point.

I said they aren't allowed to accumulate wealth Vash


Which is factually wrong no matter how you're spinning it. If they have an income they're accumulating wealth.

They can't get the full value of their labour by being paid according to Marx because all value is labour.


Under this system, that's correct. Socialists have been fighting for workers rights and have had great success over the last century. It doesn't mean they aren't Marxists by attempting to help people get more wage value for their productivity. They're bound by the limitations of the system.
10:23pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18398 posts

The biggest s***holes in Africa are the result of tinpot Marxist revolutionaries.


It's a bit more complicated than that. There are certainly people who amass power and do their best to take and do what they want, that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.
10:30pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18399 posts

I was going to respond to this, but I think now you need to take five minutes and think about what you've said.

Take this with you when you think. we live now in Pax Americana

the times we live in are, as an empirical fact, the most prosperous, most safe, least war like, most egalitarian times that have ever existed for human kind.

When you have some cogent rebuttal to that last sentence we can talk more Toll.


You're kind of like Infi, keep skipping over s***.

America has been at war almost every year since it become a nation. I never said anything about it being a good or bad thing. I never said it did or didn't lead to prosperity.

However, America has been at war a lot, a s*** load, almost every year. I can't help that America's prosperity involves being at war, at least in part.
10:34pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5440 posts


It's a bit more complicated than that. There are certainly people who amass power and do their best to take and do what they want, that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.


Yeah it's like PP thinks 'Marxist' leaders are immune from corruption, or something.
10:53pm 02/07/17 Permalink
baz
Victoria
1310 posts
I believe a new world order could be realised if Vash, Porno Pete and Toll could agree.
11:06pm 02/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5441 posts

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/jennifer-oriel/faithless-australians-may-lose-more-than-just-god/news-story/6a34b099a828ee3b5ccefbe52d2a20ee

Australia was created as a nation under God. Soon, it will fall. In the latest census, only 52 per cent of the population identified as Christian. Atheist groups are celebrating the decline of Christianity and the prospect of a nation without God, while cultural relativists are heralding a brave new world of multiculturalism.

Contrary to popular sentiment, the loss of Christian faith is not a cause for celebration or apathy. Christianity is the generative principle of the free world. Without it, liberal democracy will become hollow and the light of liberty will be put out.


Lol. The Australian is always good for a laugh.
02:27am 03/07/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13706 posts
^ Lol
In fact Christianity and other dogmatic ideologies are essentially the antitheses of liberalism
03:04am 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2633 posts
The lowest living standards in africa are very closely tied to Marxist governments Toll. I'm not going to argue it with you. The idea that power concentrated in the hands of a few is "not marxist" is fundamentally ignorant.
that's much closer to a liberalist society than marxist.
You're kind of like Infi, keep skipping over s***.

America has been at war almost every year since it become a nation. I never said anything about it being a good or bad thing. I never said it did or didn't lead to prosperity.

However, America has been at war a lot, a s*** load, almost every year. I can't help that America's prosperity involves being at war, at least in part.


You seem to be incapable of understanding what was being discussed. The fact that America has been involved in wars does not establish that capitalism requires war, or that America needs it. Next you'll be saying that they brought the war on terror on themselves or somes***.



Actually it is, PP. Universal health care is directly based off Socialist ideology.
So i think you should just stop now, you're clutching at straws at this point.


It just isn't Vash. Modern medicine has its roots in the French revolution and the enlightenment if anything. and more importantly Medicare was introduced by non-socialists in Australia. But lets not forget that what we were actually talking about which was whether or not Australia's medical system is Marxist. And considering a comfortable majority of Australian's pay for their own healthcare and government policy is geared to achieve this result, explain to me how you apply Marxist principles to get to that outcome. Marxist principles would lead you to have everyone under the government health system, not actively push people out.

Which is factually wrong no matter how you're spinning it. If they have an income they're accumulating wealth.


Oh my word you have no idea what you are talking about. It what sense is living a life of rationed austerity accumulating wealth Vash? They get paid exactly what they need to survive no more no less. Which means incidentally they are actually further divorced from the value of their labour because it doesn't matter if they are making something worthless or valuable they still get the same ration of food.

Accumulating wealth is the antitheses of Marxist thinking, you have absolutely no concept of what you are talking about. Wages prevented from becoming capital assets is *precisely* what identifies the proletariat from slaves and serfs according to Marx. So the fact hat Cuban workers get any money at all being indicative of "wealth" is something Marx himself straightforwardly contradicts.

Here is an idea, if its so awesome go live there Vash.

Socialists have been fighting for workers rights and have had great success over the last century. It doesn't mean they aren't Marxists by attempting to help people get more wage value for their productivity.


Yep and the greatest benefit workers got in Australia was abandoning that approach freeing up access to capital and taking pay cuts in exchange for tax cuts. Or in otherwords living standards in Australia were achieved by the labor party abandoning Marxist thinking and adopting free market thinking. And where that hasn't happened you can watch living standards stagnate or fall.
07:37am 03/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40655 posts
never have so many words (this thard), achieved so little (nothing).
08:01am 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2634 posts
Yeah it's like PP thinks 'Marxist' leaders are immune from corruption, or something.


F*** me you're train wreck of humanity. It's not Marxism's fault Marxism it can't deal with corruption.
08:02am 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12826 posts
" ...will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"



11:49am 03/07/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4021 posts
Tony Abbott is officially Rudd 2.0. A narcissistic sociopath doing more harm to his party than good for the sake of his own ego.
01:08pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2088 posts
Tone pls come back. We need you.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTByMVgCEAA7z2-.jpg
02:58pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5442 posts
The idea that power concentrated in the hands of a few is "not marxist" is fundamentally ignorant.


Except it goes against the very idea of Marxism. In the rest of your post, you're cherry picking things that are not Marxist, yet you're ignoring the fact that power concentrated in the hands of a few is fundamentally anti-Marxist.

Next you'll be saying that they brought the war on terror on themselves or somes***.


Well you'd have to be dumb to discount that, considering the amount of involvement they've had in the middle east... Family killed by Americans over the years are surely going to create radicals, don't you think?

Marxist principles would lead you to have everyone under the government health system, not actively push people out.


Marxists arent trying to push people away from a universal health system. That's the actions of political opponents. We live in a democracy, FYI.
Medicare was created by Whitlam, someone who believed in many Socialist policies.

Oh my word you have no idea what you are talking about.


Whole bunch of words that aren't even relevant. You know i was just pointing out that your statement is factually wrong, you could try to reword it if you like.

Yep and the greatest benefit workers got in Australia was abandoning that approach freeing up access to capital and taking pay cuts in exchange for tax cuts.


Debatable. I'd say the greatest benefit workers got was a stronger union movement and the benefits it provided over the last century. But to each his her own.

It's not Marxism's fault Marxism it can't deal with corruption.


Not sure what this word salad means.
03:01pm 03/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21292 posts
Tony Abbott is officially Rudd 2.0. A narcissistic sociopath doing more harm to his party than good for the sake of his own ego.


he is the literal f*****g embodiment of this saying:

you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
03:23pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5443 posts
I wouldn't put Rudd into the same basket as Abbott. Abbott is an actual trainwreck of humanity who had no good policy platform and is now doing exactly the thing that he said he wouldn't.

Rudd, at least, put forward really solid policies & infrastructure until it was wrecking-balled by the LNP. You also have to consider the campaign against Rudd when he was doing things to upset wealthy business interests. (Mining, Coal industries + News Corp)
His polls dived extremely quickly once those ads started popping up everywhere.

It's funny people think of the ABC as biased when you got front pages like what Sir Redhat just posted.
03:34pm 03/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39055 posts

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/jennifer-oriel/faithless-australians-may-lose-more-than-just-god/news-story/6a34b099a828ee3b5ccefbe52d2a20ee



Lol. The Australian is always good for a laugh.
when people complain the ABC does not have enough conservative opinion, is this legit the sort of thing they mean?
05:05pm 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12827 posts
The ABC is Taxpayer owned and should not be biased according to its Charter.
The Murdoch Media Conspiracy can say whatever they like just like Fairfax but we all know which the Public prefers.

Tony Abbott and his Onions of Wrath are not the solution to the Holocaust facing the Liberal Party next Election. Brian Trunbull, Backstabber Bishop, The Fixer and Bankrobber Morrison have to go. Only one man can save The Liberal Party and preserve our Liberal Democracy...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChfviRvUcAAiXsW.jpg

06:11pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5444 posts
we all know which the Public prefers.


Indeed. they prefer the ABC.
Just shows again, public institutions provide more reliable outcomes in certain industries.
Now if you believe certain people, public institutions only lead to Government propaganda & huge inefficiencies. Just look at Venezuela & Cuba!
06:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2635 posts
In the rest of your post, you're cherry picking things that are not Marxist, yet you're ignoring the fact that power concentrated in the hands of a few is fundamentally anti-Marxist.


Yes by cherry picking you mean showing that power becoming concentrated in the hands of a few every single time Marxism has ever been implemented.

But you fail to address why this happens and why it is baked into to Marxist Philosophy. Marxist Philosophy preaches democracy while simultaneously preaching the revolutionary over throw of the institutions which prevent democratic power becoming concentrated in the hands of a few. For example, you cannot get a doctrine of separation of powers out of marxist doctrine, and you can empirically observe that Marxist countries have no separation of powers, and so they aren't democracies. But this would be adult level thinking you needn't concern yourself with it.

Marxists arent trying to push people away from a universal health system.


You can't possibly be actually that bad at reading comprehension Vash. I know Marxists aren't trying to do that, that's *my point* which demonstrates that Australia's healthcare system *is not Marxist*.

Medicare was implemented by hawk and keating and they were free marketeers vash. It has been designed to work in tandem with the private sector since it began.

You know i was just pointing out that your statement is factually wrong, you could try to reword it if you like.


My statement is factually accurate Vash. Cuban's aren't allowed to accumulate wealth, they are rationed subsistence level commodities. Until 2009 buying and selling things between private parties was banned.

Not sure what this word salad means


It means as per usual, when someone points out marxist countries are rife with corruption, and Marxism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Marxism, you say, again, wasn't true marxism. Which was the substance on most of that post.

Well you'd have to be dumb to discount that, considering the amount of involvement they've had in the middle east


Oh so did they bring it on themselves.
06:48pm 03/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12828 posts
Indeed. they prefer the ABC.


Then why are my Taxes paying for it ?
According to you Vash it is more popular than its competition.
Privatize it so it can grow even bigger and sell the navel-gazing symbolic solutions of The Left, like Fairfax Media.

Fairfax shares have been smashed after it failed to entice private equity buyers to part with their cash to take over the media and real estate company.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-03/fairfax-proceeds-with-domain-spin-off-despite-lack-of-private-e/8672800

06:54pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2089 posts
07:14pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5445 posts
For example, you cannot get a doctrine of separation of powers out of marxist doctrine, and you can empirically observe that Marxist countries have no separation of powers, and so they aren't democracies


Sure you can. Marxism is all about separation of powers. The states that still exist with Marxist inspired Governments, have failed to transfer power to the people and have instead remained dictatorships.
Which is why they're referred to by both Chomsky & Orwell as state capitalists.
I simply observe the elements of these countries which are based off Marxism that have greatly benefited people, the downsides being the state capitalist elements (authoritarian, propaganda state TV, censorships, people have no control over production, etc)

I know Marxists aren't trying to do that, that's *my point* which demonstrates that Australia's healthcare system *is not Marxist*.


Uhm, that doesn't prove your point at all, PP.
We're just repeating ourselves here. Public health is based on Socialist ideology - fact. Our health system is superior to the richest country in the world, purely because of this.
The main reason it's being tainted by private institutions is due to political opposition and said private institutions pushing for it.
So by it having elements of private within the system, does not discount the majority of health outcomes social healthcare provides.

Also, again, Medicare was introduced by Whitlam, and taken away by the LNP and then reintroduced by Hawke. Do some reading before you post, already.

It means as per usual, when someone points out marxist countries are rife with corruption, and Marxism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Marxism, you say, again, wasn't true marxism.


By the same token, we can point out Capitalist countries rife with corruption, and Capitalism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Capitalism... you get the idea.

Oh so did they bring it on themselves.


Please tell us more how they didn't.
07:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39058 posts
Man I scanned the comments in that Australian article saying our country is doomed and at first was pleasantly surprised that they actually published a few athiest-ish comments. But the further down you scroll the more bizarre it gets. "It is notably strange how atheists seem to side with warrior Islamists, rather than pacifist Christians."

Someone at the Australian actually clicked 'publish' on that comment
07:22pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5446 posts
According to you Vash it is more popular than its competition. Privatize it so it can grow even bigger and sell the navel-gazing symbolic solutions of The Left, like Fairfax Media.


Why would they privatise it if it's working so well? It's the most trusted news source.

Maybe if it became privatised it would lose everything that made it special.
07:41pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2636 posts
The states that still exist with Marxist inspired Governments, have failed to transfer power to the people and have instead remained dictatorships.


you don't really get separation of powers do you vash?


Uhm, that doesn't prove your point at all, PP.


Oh the mere fact that it's policy structure can't be reconciled with marxist principles isn't a show stopper. Ok.

also, again, Medicare was introduced by Whitlam, and taken away by the LNP and then reintroduced by Hawke. Do some reading before you post, already.


Medibank was introduced by Whitlam Vash. Medicare is similar but with altered funding arrangements, specifically to bring government spending within around 25% of GDP IE consistent with free market thinking that excessive government spending distorts the market. It's a freemarket policy vash. You really need to do the basic reading on any subject before you post.

Public health is based on Socialist ideology - fact.

No it isn't. Public health funds predate Marxism Vash, again how about you do some reading.

By the same token, we can point out Capitalist countries rife with corruption, and Capitalism is demonstrably incapable of dealing with it, instead of accepting that is a really clear and obvious shortcoming of Capitalism... you get the idea.


False equivalence much?

Please tell us more how they didn't.


How the US didn't bring a deliberate attempt to kill as many civilians as possible on themselves. How about you explain how they did Vash? how about you start with US involvement in Sykes-picot.
07:42pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5447 posts

you don't really get separation of powers do you vash?


Sure i do. It simply works differently under Marxism. The goal being, decentralising power & giving it to councils run by the population instead of Government appointed judiciaries & lawmakers, and ultimately abolition of the state is pretty much the epitome of seperation of powers.

Oh the mere fact that it's policy structure can't be reconciled with marxist principles isn't a show stopper. Ok.


Except the very idea of an institution that provides a vital service to the entire population regardless of his or her wealth, is based on Marxism. But that isn't a show stopper for you either, is it.

Medibank was introduced by Whitlam Vash.


So Whitlam did introduce Medicare, albeit named differently. Thanks.

False equivalence much?


Actually, an almost exact equivalence.

deliberate attempt to kill as many civilians as possible on themselves. How about you explain how they did Vash?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+the+US+created+isis+and+al+qaeda
08:29pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2637 posts
The goal being, decentralising power & giving it to councils run by the population instead of Government appointed judiciaries & lawmakers, and ultimately abolition of the state is pretty much the epitome of seperation of powers.


It's the opposite of separation of powers vash. The idea is that you have separated institutions of government, which can't be unseated. But don't worry, paraphrasing the wiki entry sure is impressive.

Except the very idea of an institution that provides a vital service to the entire population regardless of his or her wealth, is based on Marxism


No it isn't vash. Public health funds started in Germany in the 1820's. They *predate* Karl Marx, came before, can't possibly be based on.

Medicare, is predicated on capital being allocated in a free market creating enough excess wealth to pay for it. It is literally the opposite of marxist thinking, it is straight up capital being liberating not oppressive. You seriously need to read some Marx.

So Whitlam did introduce Medicare, albeit named differently. Thanks.


Yes the only thing that changed for a funding system for health care was how it was funded. Please learn to read

Actually, an almost exact equivalence.


Yes regular elections versus 50 years of single leader. It's like I'm seeing double.

oh a let me google that for you. You don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash?
08:47pm 03/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5448 posts
The idea is that you have separated institutions of government, which can't be unseated.


Separation of powers isn't isolated to Government institutions, PP. You can separate powers via dismantling Government institutions & decentralizing power. There are many ways to go about this, and isn't unique to liberal democracy, as much as you've been misled to believe.

It is literally the opposite of marxist thinking, it is straight up capital being liberating not oppressive. You seriously need to read some Marx.


Not at all. Why do you think so many conservative commentators call public health, 'Socialist medicine'?
Yes, public healthcare uses capital, it has no choice but to in a Capitalist economy. The idea is based on Socialism, that is, a transitional system to provide healthcare for all until capital is no longer required.

Every Socialist has implemented it, and every libertarian has fought against it.

Yes the only thing that changed for a funding system for health care was how it was funded. Please learn to read


You're really struggling aren't you?

Yes regular elections versus 50 years of single leader. It's like I'm seeing double.


Mass corruption exists regardless of elections, PP. Are you really that naive?

oh a let me google that for you.


Yes, get reading.
10:01pm 03/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2638 posts
Separation of powers isn't isolated to Government institutions, PP.

Yes it is, that's the point of you utter utter moron.

The idea is based on Socialism, that is, a transitional system to provide healthcare for all until capital is no longer required


The only problem being that that day will never come will it vash. Marx said Capitalism would self destruct, here we are 170 years later and it's doing fine and Marxism is a conspiracy theory touted by idiots like you. The idea that capital is liberating is fundamentally contradictory of Marxism Vash. Again you have no f*****g idea what you're talking about do you.

But for the final time, Public Health Care is not a socialist idea Vash. Public Health Funds were started in Germany and required Employer contributions in around the 1820's. they predate Marxism.

You're really struggling aren't you?


Are you denying that Keating and Hawke altered the funding model before reintroducing it Vash? It is a matter of public record that they did. go and read.

Mass corruption exists regardless of elections, PP. Are you really that naive?


So corruption is comparably rife in the UK or US as in China or North Korea hey? Are you really that stupid? Actually we know the answer to that Vash.

Yes, get reading.


So you don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash, nor do you have any idea of the pivotal role it plays in geo politics in the region, and the fact that both Al-Qaeda and ISIS call for it to be repealed. It just easier to say the white devil the US caused all the worlds woes.

It's just sad to see how badly an education system can fail someone.
07:21am 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5449 posts
Yes it is, that's the point of you utter utter moron.


Are you seriously suggesting separation of powers cannot be done in other ways after abolition of the state?

Marx said Capitalism would self destruct, here we are 170 years later and it's doing fine


Is it PP? 170 years is a very short period of time in human history and for an economic system. Capitalism, in my view, is like a hard hitting drug, we're still on the high, and the comedown has yet to come. Though there are hints of disaster approaching considering the level of world debt.
Economies that rely on infinite growth & ultimate consumerism, it's just a matter of time until they fall over.

So corruption is comparably rife in the UK or US as in China or North Korea hey?


How about we look at say... Philippines, or Africa, or much of Latin America?
How about Mexico? Russia? Turkey?


So you don't know what Sykes-picot is do you Vash, nor do you have any idea of the pivotal role it plays in geo politics in the region


No i don't, and it isn't something i really care to read into. Reading plenty of accounts from experts on the region, and the actions of the West, it's pretty safe to say if the U.S did not initiate an invasion of Iraq and then following to other regions, ISIS would not exist.
It's nothing to do with skin color, PP. The U.S pushes its own interest internationally, regardless of laws. It's a nation that loves war.
You can choose to ignore the atrocities the U.S has committed. We all know you enjoy having your head in the sand (Trump criticism awaiting)
08:14am 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2639 posts
are you seriously suggesting separation of powers cannot be done in other ways after abolition of the state?

You're not even wrong here Vash. You clearly don't understand the concept buddy.

Is it PP?


Yes, yes it is doing absolutely fine, in fact it's never been as entrenched globally as it is now. Marxism not so much.

How about we look at say... Philippines, or Africa, or much of Latin America?
How about Mexico? Russia? Turkey?


Ok lets look at the Philippines as opposed to comparing the worlds second largest economy to the largest. I mean why anyone would make that comparison just out of thin air right?

According to transparency international China and the Philippines score 40 and 35 respectively. One is vying for super power status, the other is a third world country with incredibly weak governance institutions. so a totally sensible comparison there and china *barely* beats it.

As for Africa again why don't we look at Marxist revolutionary Mugabe's Zimbabwe, oh look at that it comes 174 in a list 176.

No i don't, and it isn't something i really care to read into


Imagine my shock. Please carry on explaining how the US brought 9/11 on themselves by invading Iraq in response to 9/11, those wascally white devils.

(Trump criticism awaiting)


IF you're waiting for me to lose my s*** the way you have Vash, it isn't going to happen. My criticisms are a matter of record, go look them up.
06:54pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5450 posts
Yes, yes it is doing absolutely fine


World debt of 325% of GDP is absolutely fine, and sustainable. Ok PP.

in fact it's never been as entrenched globally as it is now.


Quite worrying when much of the world is reliant on a system that is on it's last legs.

IF you're waiting for me to lose my s*** the way you have Vash, it isn't going to happen.


Yes because your head is firmly in the sand. You should be losing your s*** if you had any idea what impact climate change is going to have. But no, everything is fine, PP. Capitalism is running absolutely fine. Climate change is also nothing to worry about.
You're an absolute moron.


08:06pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2640 posts
Oh climate change thanks for that vash. and link to a chomsky video. Is there bulk discount on those things?

There is the incoherent clutching at straws we were all waiting for.

So to get this into perspective, the original discussion points were:

1. Australia's public health system isn't Marxist. (it's not)
2. Separation of powers is not encompassed in marxist doctrine. (It's not, plus now we know Vash doesn't understand this concept)
3. The US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves. (they didn't)

Now you're saying I've got my head in the sand because trump + climate change.

Please continue shouting catch phrases at me. They are a great substitute for genuine reasoning. You can hold the moral high ground without ever having to engage in self reflection.

What a pathetic sad excuse for a human being you are Vash.
08:24pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5451 posts
Oh climate change thanks for that vash. and link to a chomsky video


Yeah only the most important issue humanity will probably face. Just a minor little issue isn't it PP?
Chomsky is the one we should all be listening to, he's an encyclopedia in the flesh. It's hilarious you even attempt to discount him as a person worth listening to.

1. Australia's public health system isn't Marxist.


It is based on Marxism, yup. Even your conservative buddies say so.

2. Separation of powers is not encompassed in marxist doctrine. (It's not, plus now we know Vash doesn't understand this concept)


It is actually. Marxism's entire goal is decentralisation of power structures, and putting it into the hands of people, you know, separation of powers. You seem to be limited in thinking to liberal democracy which is understandable (since you haven't read Marx)

3. The US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves.


They did actually, but you can keep ignoring experts on that one, little buddy. Just like you do on every other single issue.
08:42pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2641 posts
keep trying vash you will get there one day.

You haven't read Marx so you don't know what a marxist policy is. Marxism doesn't advocate separation of powers, and you are continuing to demonstrate to the point that you should ashamed how little you understand the concept, and the US didn't bring 9/11 on themselves (the only actual event you can name happened after 9/11, truly champagne comedy).

You've already admitted your ignorance on every single one of these issues Vash.

Just because you adopt my phrasing doesn't mean we are on the same level, little buddy.

Chomsky is a discredited ass hat who indulges in flatout conspiracy theory. I get why you like him so much.

but you can keep ignoring experts on that one, little buddy. Just like you do on every other single issue.


Says the marxist who's never read Marx.
08:49pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5452 posts
You haven't read Marx so you don't know what a marxist policy is.


Says the guy that thinks Marxism is about gathering concentration of power. The absolute ignorance on display here is hilarious if not sad.

Chomsky is a discredited ass hat


Discredited by you, isn't discredited, PP.

But hey, let's just float on over to the real issues. How about we talk more about Climate change, PP? Maybe you need to learn how serious it is, and then you might finally realise how dangerous a Trump presidency is. Or you could just take Faceman's stance.
08:55pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2642 posts
Says the guy that thinks Marxism is about gathering concentration of power. The absolute ignorance on display here is hilarious if not sad.


It is really funny how obviously you do not understand the concept of separation of powers vash. Just keep digging little buddy. When you can point to a passage in a marx text which explicit discusses how the organization of power is to be separated you'll have a point. You haven't read them so I won't hold my breath. All the functions of government being localized is a totally different concept, and all of them being given to a local "council" (which is what happened in Russia and China) is concentrating power in a single institution. You simply do not understand the concept, and the more you type, the more blatent it is. You're a poster child for mandatory civics in schools.

How about we talk more about Climate change, PP? Maybe you need to learn how serious it is, and then you might finally realise how dangerous a Trump presidency is.


Dude the reason you have a boner for climate change is the same reason all marxists do. It's because you think it will finally bring about the end of capitalism. Its transparent as f*** and really pathetic. Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.

Anyway, it is entertaining watch someone wail about the influence of propaganda while simultaneously being the biggest repeatedly demonstrated victim of it.

Chomsky isn't discredited by me vash, when was the last time he influenced a policy? Nobody listens to him because he has been spouting the same s***e for the last 40 years. He is a joke, and literally the only reason you quote him is because I said he sucks balls.

I've got my hand up you're ass and I'm working you like a sock puppet.
09:25pm 04/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5453 posts
Look at this deflection right here

Dude the reason you have a boner for climate change is the same reason all marxists do.


It has nothing to do with ending Capitalism or Marxism. It's about, you know, giving a s*** about human life.

Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.


You actually believe this? This is the point i should post that don't go full retard video, but thankfully i'm not pathetic.

I've got my hand up you're ass and I'm working you like a sock puppet.


Haha. So cute and delusional. You really hate being called out don't you? Your* btw.

Anyway, let me know when you're actually ready to acknowledge science, PP.
09:41pm 04/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2643 posts
Oh vash

It's about, you know, giving a s*** about human life.


You care so deeply its obvious thats why you believe in a system that has killed 100s of millions of people.

You actually believe this?


See. Not just me. Barack obama, tim flannery, the IPCC they all want to form carbon markets. Markets vash. Capitalism Vash.

Who is denying the science here?

So how about that UK election huh, It's funny how the government moved the to right of where it was. How about that French election, moved to the right aswell.

How about that bernie sanders huh, paying a lower effective tax rate than trump. Man of the people that guy, he'll spend everyone's money to save the world. Just not his.
07:25am 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5454 posts
Yes, i do care PP. That's why we move away from Capitalism, FYI.

Barack obama, tim flannery, the IPCC they all want to form carbon markets. Markets vash. Capitalism Vash.


Notice Trump missing from this lil nugget? Markets require heavily regulation to ensure environments aren't devastated.
And who's a nation with a 'Communist Party' that's doing more than the U.S on climate change? Why that's China... interesting.

So again, talk to me again when you're capable of criticising Trump's dangerous (or lack of) policies. Or, acknowledging the seriousness of the science.

And get some philosophy up ya. You might learn something.



It's a scary communist, PP. He surely wants to take all your money & put you in a gulag.
09:58am 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5455 posts
http://i.imgur.com/PPujfoh.jpg

and so it begins...
10:23am 05/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12829 posts
Thats Horrifying - NSW winning two Origin Series in a row ?

North Korea now has a Nuclear capable missile that can reach Australia.
We must install a Bollard Defense System around Darwin.

how about Sarah Hanson-Dumb and taking her sick daughter on a Plane trip, a chauffeur driven ride to be healed by the Whales courtesy of Taxpayers.
the greens = just like all the other Partys.

12:07pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40661 posts
ease up there facey, im sure that small fry compared to the rorts the big boys pull.
05:59pm 05/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2644 posts
Notice Trump missing from this lil nugget?

You really really want me to be a trump supporter don't you vash. everything it is box, everyone from their tribe.

and who's a nation with a 'Communist Party' that's doing more than the U.S on climate change? Why that's China... interesting.

Yeah they are doing double the emissions that cause climate change. Nice.

And get some philosophy up ya. You might learn something.


I suppose it would be mean to point out zizek endorsed trump wouldn't it.
06:40pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5456 posts
Yes, i know that he did PP, and i predicted you'd throw that strawman at me.

Zizek thinks Trump is a disaster, but also seems to think he will shake up politics enough for a new left to mobilise, something i agree with, though not without a large amount of damage having been done.

Edit: Also just found this
might be a more credible source for deaths under Capitalism.
07:15pm 05/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39062 posts
ease up there facey, im sure that small fry compared to the rorts the big boys pull.
Yeh this is kind of a handy guide to how much of our money our new aristocracy is spending
07:31pm 05/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2645 posts
Yes, i know that he did PP, and i predicted you'd throw that strawman at me.


No you didn't and it isn't a strawman. He did endorse trump. and to quote from the man himself

He is not a dangerous guy who is appearing to be polite. All his violent outbursts - completely vulgar, tasteless statements - mask the fact that there is nothing extraordinary about him."


Not pulling "disaster" out of that. He seems to be implying that he is less dangerous than Hilary.

Zizek thinks Trump is a disaster, but also seems to think he will shake up politics enough for a new left to mobilise, something i agree with, though not without a large amount of damage having been done.


So let me see if I follow this reasoning.

You've said the principle reason trump is super dangerous is because climate change is super serial. He is going to do, in the next 4 to 8 years, irreparable damage to the climate.

On the other hand you had Hillary who is and was committed to action on climate change and making the Paris accords work.

So on election day You should vote against someone from the left who will act on climate change, and instead vote for someone who will do irreparable damage to the climate.

You should do this because it will create a renewal of zest or vim on the left which is needed in part to tackle climate change.

Good one. Absolutely impeccable. You should vote against doing something now, because in doing so you can build support for doing that same thing later.



Edit: Also just found this


Oh guerrilla ontologies this sounds promising. I think you just did the credibility equivalent of dividing by zero.
07:59pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4609 posts
while Trump and his base of Reddit s***posters and other deplorables decry CNN as fakes and frauds without offering any actual rebuttal, at least the Daily Telegraph makes it easy

Daily Telegraph, sucking Abbott's d*** since 2013
08:19pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2090 posts
The 3rd column of that tele headline sounds kinda nice.
09:16pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18402 posts

Climate change will be solved by expanding capitalism, not adopting marxism.


I think you're missing the point here.

It seems more and more likely that climate change isn't going to be 'solved'. It seems the time for any meaningful change has past, now it's more about damage control. I agree with your assessment in that capitalism is probably the better cultural system available to create fastest adaption.. for the people that can afford it anyway. Sucks to be poor in such situations.

F***, it's been a while since I've seen a bee...
09:51pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18403 posts
Vash.

Too much socialism creates problems, this you must understand. Public liability insurance is a problem caused by socialism. Having to protect everyone from the most retarded stuff because people seemingly can't be held responsible and accountable for their own safety.

No doubt you have heard of the situation with the Urban Food Street problem? Local government is ripping down the communities self-created fruit trees? Tree's that are essentially on the sides of the road that the community has taken great care to grow over many years.
Well the local government feels forced to have to rip them down because they don't/can't pay public liability insurance in case some random walks under a rotting tree (not that any actually were, it MIIIGGHHTTT happen one day you see) and gets hit on the head and decides it's the councils fault and attempts to sue the council.

This is a problem caused by 'artificial' socialism, destroying real socialism. This is what happens when you make rules for everything, trying to protect all the people. It ends up just sterilizing everything into death.

10:00pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5457 posts
I agree with your assessment in that capitalism is probably the better cultural system available to create fastest adaption. for the people that can afford it anyway.


I agree that most of the wealthy really dont care about it, they can afford whatever measures to isolate themselves from the problem. As usual, the people most impacted will be the poor.
Markets aren't really good at dealing with global problems, it's shuffled under the carpet for as long as possible. You also have said wealthy interests ensuring the narrative is manipulated (paid off climate science deniers) or the problem is downplayed, and investment is continually directed to fossil fuel industries.
Solar is getting cheaper, but it isn't happening fast enough. The markets need to be heavily regulated with carbon pricing, yesterday.
10:04pm 05/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2091 posts
F***, it's been a while since I've seen a bee...


Honey bees shut down over winter. They collect honey while there's flowers about when it's warm

Aussie native bees might be different as Australia doesn't have proper seasons. I think their honey pot is usually smaller too as winter isn't that long.




Vash.

Too much socialism creates problems, this you must understand. Public liability insurance is a problem caused by socialism. Having to protect everyone from the most retarded stuff because people seemingly can't be held responsible and accountable for their own safety.

No doubt you have heard of the situation with the Urban Food Street problem? Local government is ripping down the communities self-created fruit trees? Tree's that are essentially on the sides of the road that the community has taken great care to grow over many years.
Well the local government feels forced to have to rip them down because they don't/can't pay public liability insurance in case some random walks under a rotting tree (not that any actually were, it MIIIGGHHTTT happen one day you see) and gets hit on the head and decides it's the councils fault and attempts to sue the council.

This is a problem caused by 'artificial' socialism, destroying real socialism. This is what happens when you make rules for everything, trying to protect all the people. It ends up just sterilizing everything into death.



How the f*** is this socialism? Are the lockout laws socialism too? Just because it is something the state is doing doesn't make it socialism.
10:37am 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2646 posts
I agree that most of the wealthy really dont care about it, they can afford whatever measures to isolate themselves from the problem


Imma leave this here.
07:06pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25920 posts
Hmmm yes a mere smattering of names compared to the countless number of people it would have required to organise the disinformation campaign run against climate change for what must be two decades now. Excellent point.
07:49pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5458 posts
And this proves it.
A handful of billionaires giving some money is the same as what Zizek says of people who consume Starbucks to make themselves feel good about doing something.
When in reality, its their lifestyle that is contributing the most, something most of them wont change, and therefor, they don't really care enough.
07:49pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2647 posts
Hmmm yes a mere smattering of names compared to the countless number of people it would have required to organise the disinformation campaign run against climate change for what must be two decades now. Excellent point.


The wealthiest names in the world Fpot. I don't quite recall Zuckerberg ever saying climate change was crap. Or larry page, or steve jobs, or warren buffet, or the rockefellers, or the english royal family. Or any given hollywood actor. I mean I know climate change in hollywood is just dogs***, they all think its crap.

But no maybe you have a point, must be those rich bastards.

And this proves it.


You almost certainly fall in the 10% they are talking about Vash.
08:38pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25921 posts
Even if you named 1000 wealthy people who accept the reality of climate change you still wouldn't have a point. The incredibly persuasive campaign which is so successful and widespread that even the POTUS can endorse it - where do you think it came from?
08:50pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2648 posts
Rich people just generally Fpot? Is climate denial a function of wealth or is something else at play do you think?
08:51pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18404 posts

Honey bees shut down over winter. They collect honey while there's flowers about when it's warm


I haven't seen a Honey Bee in well over a year. I have to watch out for them because their stings make me swell up good. It was pretty special to see one though, as they are getting harder and harder to come across. I remember as a kid they used to be everywhere (so it seemed anyway).

I haven't seen native bees for quite some time either :(
09:00pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25922 posts
Rich people just generally Fpot? Is climate denial a function of wealth or is something else at play do you think?
The only reason to instigate it would be to protect your own wealth from the sacrifices that needed to be made. There is of course an army of numpties tagging along for various reasons, the primary one being that they're dumb c****.
09:06pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5459 posts
Wealthy people utilise their wealth PP. (Private jets, mansions, consumption) They will throw a small amount of their total wealth at a problem to feel less guilty, and ensure the population thinks they're doing something.
While someone like me, can manage my footprint and lower it drastically, without being tempted at mindless consumption, that excessive wealth can tempt you to do.
Do you think the wealthy will give up their yachts and private jets for climate change?
09:07pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2649 posts
The rockerfellers are oil money fpot, the oldest oil money.

But what if I can name millions of people fpot?

polling on climate change action in Australia is consistently in the mid-seventies. The average wage in Australia is about 80k. To be in the top 1% incomes globally you need to have an income of around 40k AUD. that means there are millions of people who are wealthy by any reasonable standard who think climate change is real and want something done about it.

In fact action on climate change is predominately a 1st world preoccupation. You are not going to find a Bangladeshi beggar who gives a f***.

Most of the Ivy League schools in the states (60k+ a year tuition) consider climate denial a "microaggression".

There is a strong case to be made that caring about climate change is a strong indicator of wealth Fpot.
09:15pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5460 posts
You are not going to find a Bangladeshi beggar who gives a f***.


As usual, you'd be wrong. The poorest will be the most affected, and they are calling for the west to do more, and right now. Their entire livelihoods will be destroyed, and they are very aware of this fact.
People may express they're for fighting climate change, but when push comes to shove, they're doing f*** all about it. (probably you included)
09:26pm 06/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12830 posts
You just dont see what it is do you PP even when they spell it out to you.

09:45pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25923 posts
Yeah well that's great that the truth is finally prevailing. Except it's far too late because of the disinformation campaign created by people solely so they could make more money.
09:50pm 06/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2650 posts
As usual, you'd be wrong.


You could vote for trump to radicalize the moderates vash.

Yeah well that's great that the truth is finally prevailing. Except it's far too late because of the disinformation campaign created by people solely so they could make more money.

So you're willing to admit that wealth isn't the driver of climate denial now. Well I'm glad you could do a 180 and come with me on that fpot. It's like we're skipping hand in hand in a meadow of daffodils.
09:55pm 06/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2092 posts


I haven't seen a Honey Bee in well over a year. I have to watch out for them because their stings make me swell up good. It was pretty special to see one though, as they are getting harder and harder to come across. I remember as a kid they used to be everywhere (so it seemed anyway).

I haven't seen native bees for quite some time either :(


Man look up stuff you can plant in your backyard to encourage native bees, they are stingless!
There's a whole lot of community driven stuff going on to encourage the native bees down here.
10:59pm 06/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39066 posts
Man look up stuff you can plant in your backyard to encourage native bees, they are stingless!
There's a whole lot of community driven stuff going on to encourage the native bees down here.
What are the native bees called, do you know (like their species name)? Do they do honey and other normal bee stuff? I'm vaguely interested in doing bee stuff when I get back to Aus; I have some friends that have been doing it and it sounds cool.
11:48pm 06/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25924 posts
There are over 1500 different species apparently - http://www.aussiebee.com.au/faq.html
12:55am 07/07/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40663 posts
my honey growing friends tell me all the bees moved to china to s*** on the australian honey industry.
06:53am 07/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25926 posts
To the Bee Mobile!
08:44am 07/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2093 posts
Probably take a bee keeping day course when you're back, there's probably a local species you should get which is suitable for your area. I think the native bees don't produce as much, but it's enough for a family. You can't take all their honey as they use it to survive when it gets cold.

To the Bee Mobile!

Literally this!

Friends were telling me about their bees and how you have to go around to catch a colony when they're on the swarm. Sounds pretty fun!
09:38am 07/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12831 posts
Make The Planet Great Again

10:43pm 07/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5461 posts

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/united-nations-world-health-organisation-drugs-decriminalised-a7818726.html

The United Nations and World Health Organisation have issued a call for drugs to be decriminalised. Buried in a joint release on ending healthcare discrimination, the organisations called for the “reviewing and repealing punitive laws that have been proven to have negative health outcomes†by member states.


Finally, progress on the war on drugs.
07:17pm 08/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5462 posts
09:52pm 08/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2098 posts
01:49pm 09/07/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
816 posts
haha
04:43pm 09/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25930 posts
Well I guess this whole Russia thing turned out to be nothing but a witch hunt.

Spoiler:
lol
01:17pm 12/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21299 posts
Spoiler:
lol
02:18pm 12/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12838 posts
Lets see if Sean Hannity can sort out the ingredients out of this new Nothing Burger™

“So, from looking at the facts,” Hannity stated, “a friend of the Trumps offered to coordinate a meeting to share opposition research on Hillary Clinton, which Donald Trump Jr. agreed to. Nothing came of it because there was no information exchanged and it ended there.”


MMmmm its clearly got a delicious Putin Pattie in the centre and its filled with yummy KGB sauce.

“You have zero credibility left. You have been caught time and time again spreading fake news stories. You’ll be critical of all of my interviews. And you’ve carried out your personal attacks against the president, against his family, and against anybody that dares to be associated with the president… We have an information crisis. Overpaid, lazy, rigid, leftwing ideologues, but that’s for another night.”


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/hannity-lectures-hysterical-media-he-knows-is-watching-before-showing-interview-with-trump-jr/

Trump is President, The Democrats lost the Election because of stupid Identity Politics, Stupid Global Warming policies, wouldnt listen to Voters, and told everyone who didnt get on board the Clinton Foundation were a basket of Deplorables.

Just a bunch of sore Losers.
Like NSW fans will be tonight.
WAHAHHHHAHH Cameron Smith was the Ref
Trump is controlled by Putin
Earth is going to turn into Venus

TRAIN WRECKS OF HUMANITY


03:39pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5464 posts
Faceman is the embodiment of why humanity is doomed.

http://i.imgur.com/URBoYa4.jpg
05:34pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2651 posts
Well I guess this whole Russia thing turned out to be nothing but a witch hunt.


Yes by talking with any Russian at all regardless of if they work for the Kremlin Trump colluded with "Russia".

You've confused the smoking gun with a water pistol full of pee.
06:17pm 12/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25931 posts
Chief defender of the Faith chimes in.
06:45pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2652 posts
Pointing out a meeting in which no information changed hands with someone who doesn't work for the Kremlin isn't exactly the pointy end, is hardly "faith" fpot.

Trump's kid met with a Russian once seems a step down from Trump is in Putin's pocket.

Where did you get your skepticism gland removed, your guy is really good.
08:51pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5465 posts
Where is your skepticism of Trump PP my boy?
09:03pm 12/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2653 posts
Where is your skepticism of Trump PP my boy?


Why don't you vote for him to radicalize the moderates mah boi. Go read some Marx.
09:10pm 12/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7670 posts
Faceman is embodiment of why humanity is doomed.


Vash you sound like you are on your way to being a Nihilist
11:13pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5466 posts


Vash you sound like you are on your way to being a Nihilist


Indeed. Though i'm not a Nihilist, it doesn't take much thinking to eventually lead yourself to that point.
Firstly, look at the evidence of climate change, then look at the worst case scenario of the effect of climate change, and then look at what the republican party does, and finally, people like Faceman & PP thinking it's no big deal.
11:22pm 12/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18406 posts
Decided to buy drugs from a drug dealer. When I got there, she wasn't selling any of the particular drugs that I liked.
Therefor I acompletely absolved of any moral or ethical wrongdoing (phew, lucky she didn't have those crazy red pills on hand, that could have been embarrassing!).
12:12am 13/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12841 posts
VAsh, what was the percentage of Climate Change Scientists, who believe in their Climate Change Science, who believed Hillary Clinton would become President ?
Would it have been very close to 100% ?
01:43am 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2654 posts
Decided to buy drugs from a drug dealer. When I got there, she wasn't selling any of the particular drugs that I liked.
Therefor I acompletely absolved of any moral or ethical wrongdoing


A relation of mine decided to buy some drugs from a drug dealer without my knowledge. When he got there, she wasn't a drug dealer and didn't have any drugs. Therefore I have not committed an impeachable crime.

I thought I'd clean that analogy up for you toll. You seem to have skipped over some important detail.

people like Faceman & PP thinking it's no big deal.


Difficult to take that seriously when you say voting for trump will help to form a left wing movement that will address it.
06:59am 13/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18407 posts
The point still stands.
08:34am 13/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39069 posts
VAsh, what was the percentage of Climate Change Scientists, who believe in their Climate Change Science, who believed Hillary Clinton would become President ?
Would it have been very close to 100% ?
looking forward to seeing where this is going
05:49pm 13/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2099 posts
looking forward to seeing where this is going

Do you enjoy discussion about correlation equalling causation?
06:43pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25932 posts
Except it's not just a relation, it's an employee. And they weren't buying drugs, they were obtaining dirt on a political opponent in the US Presidential Election. I have a sneaking suspicion this dirt wasn't just offered for free. It was either paid for with money or something else. Apparently the person he met with was a lawyer, obviously working on behalf of someone. Either a Russian business person or someone in the government. Both are just as bad.

Kind of funny how you get all defensive and frothy when someone makes the mere suggestion that the ongoing Russia thing might be more than just a witch hunt.
08:17pm 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2655 posts
yes fpot you've rumbled me, so frothy.

All the parties at the meeting confirm nothing happened, and nobody can provide information showing that testimony to be inaccurate fpot.

There is still nothing substantive in the Russian story.

There is no law against digging up dirt on political opponents, and it is certainly not grounds for impeachment when the president had no knowledge.

I have a sneaking suspicion this dirt wasn't just offered for free. It was either paid for with money or something else. Apparently the person he met with was a lawyer, obviously working on behalf of someone. Either a Russian business person or someone in the government.


someone may or may not have provided dirt and may or may not have been paid maybe with money but maybe not through a lawyer who may have been their in her own capacity but may have been working for a business person or a government or neither.

Gotcha.
09:30pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25933 posts
I like how you've taken what I've written and tried to muddle it up when it's really quite clear what the implications are.

Glad to hear that all of the accused have confirmed nothing happened though. Phew, what a load off! Also great to hear that known truth teller and paragon of humanity President Trump also had no knowledge. Guess we can close the book on this one.
09:44pm 13/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2656 posts
Yeah the implications based you your speculation fpot. I know what the implication is. the *facts* don't support it.

Glad to hear that all of the accused have confirmed nothing happened though.

you missed a bit

and nobody can provide information showing that testimony to be inaccurate fpot.


Nobody can say:
- what the dirt was (and the accused claims there was none)
- what the pay off was (and again there no proof there was any)
- what the relationship between the lawyer and the Russian government is.

So other then the fact that she is Russian, the link to a vast Putin conspiracy is tenuous.

Paying a foreigner to dig up dirt on an opponent is legal fpot.

The claim isn't some arbitrary Russian was paid for dirt on Hilary. The claim is Donald Trump the president entered into an agreement with Putin to undermine american democracy. You've got a few gaps to fill in.
09:51pm 13/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25934 posts
I don't, the massive team of investigators currently investigating do. You know, the one headed by the new guy after Trump fired the last person.

And I know your tactic is to blow things up and make it seem as though the person you're arguing with is making wild claims, but all I'm saying is the current investigation is no witch hunt. From what I can see there are legitimate grounds for an investigation. Speculation is all that exists at the moment. Even if facts did exist, they aren't really relevant to the Trump administration who either just make them up or ignore them as required.
10:07pm 13/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21303 posts
come on PP stop being a lawyer and use some common sense
09:36am 14/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2657 posts
but all I'm saying is the current investigation is no witch hunt.


And all I'm saying is that you are plainly saying a lot more then that. An investigation isn't an indictment, isn't a criminal conviction nor an impeachment.

come on PP stop being a lawyer and use some common sense


The vast majority of this interest in this story is that it casts doubt over the legitimacy of the election (and considering that was almost certainly Putin's intention, it is no small irony that folks are eager to dog-pile, a clever man might see an uncomfortable question there), and could expose trump to impeachment proceedings.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Russia had no influence over the election or didn't try to influence it. The question that everyone is keen to imply a bad answer to is did Trump procure it?

Nothing I have seen comes close to establishing that. the brute fact is Putin has an interest in casting doubt over US democracy whether trump ran or not (in payback for the scrutiny the US rightly levies his way). In the end the most damaging incident came from Comey if you'll recall, by announcing he was reopening the investigation into Clinton's emails in the final week of the campaign, no Russians needed. While fpot is talking about sacking Comey, it is important to note that the *vast majority* of democrats were calling for him to be sacked *literally the day before*.

*The closest* anyone has come to showing Trump procured Russian hacking, is an underling meeting with a Russian national in which nobody can say if information changed hands, money changed hands, or if the the lawyers connections to Russia run any deeper than being a Russian national.

It's not clear that is even a crime, much less proof positive trump entered an agreement with Putin (or some other suitably highly ranked Russian official) to hack the DNC.

With that said, it is clearly deeply inappropriate to be taking meetings of that kind, and the emails certainly read pretty badly.

But until someone can offer something more then that, the odds of establishing Trump procured Russian hackers remains incredibly low, and the odds of impeachment are practically zero.
07:00pm 14/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5467 posts

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-it-too-much-to-ask-that-our-own-head-of-state-be-exclusively-devoted-to-us-20170714-gxbq2n.html

This article states a good point. Why should Ludlam resign when our head of state is almost 100 percent english?
He'll be missed. One of the few politicans in our Government to keep em' honest.
Another reason everyone should vote green, is that it's one of the few parties that understand the need to fight corruption with a federal ICAC.
12:44am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18408 posts

“If you can't see through that [border] wall — so it could be a steel wall with openings, but you have to have openings because you have to see what's on the other side of the wall,” the president said, according to the White House travel pool. “I’ll give you an example: As horrible as it sounds, when they throw the large sacks of drugs over, and if you have people on the other side of the wall, you don't see them—they hit you on the head with 60 pounds of stuff? It’s over. As crazy as that sounds, you need transparency through that wall. But we have some incredible designs.”


You really think this guy is not deluded in some way? He thinks stuff like this, and it's in a serious manner. Unless he is just a massive troll, like the best troll that lived ever. The greatest Troll. Greater than than any other troll ever to have lived. So great and so intelligent in fact, that how could he not be the greatest troll.
09:25am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18409 posts
I agree with PP on that front.
There seems to be little point in carrying on about Russia changing the election outcome. Particularly when you factor in everything else that influences election outcomes such as Mass Media, 'leaked' reports, etc and the way people use that to try influence the minds of others. All these negative, fear based tactics predominate elections. Potential Russian hacking (or whatever they want to call it) is just another story.

If there was truly evidence of hacking surely it would have been released. The best I've seen is breached access to a number of election systems with no evidence of vote changes, etc.

The Trump business is astoundingly massive, he is going to have conflicts of interest and from everything we've seen about his character (including 'autobiography The Art Of The Deal, remember Trump claimed he wrote that..) he is going to do whatever the f*** he wants.
The people pretty much brought this upon themselves. That's how voting works.
If people question the validity of the election, then perhaps the system should be targeted and not the current president. Really, investigating the election and going through the process of removing him if clear evidence was found would probably take more than 4 years anyway with the speed these things tend to go at ..

What a ramble. All over the shop. That's how you do political debates :D
09:40am 15/07/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18410 posts
Oh also,

I had previously stated that there was potential for a significant mental breakdown by Trump and an extremely dangerous lashing out by him in whatever capacity he could manage (being Commander in Chief of the most powerful army the world has ever seen ..). This would likely be triggered by repeated assault on his ego, irrefutable evidence of his failures that even he couldn't delude himself into not seeing.

I admit, I underestimated his astounding ability of self-delusion. Just how remarkable he is at warping his perception to see himself as not failing, at anything. It seems he will very likely end his presidential stint truly believing he did an outstanding job at being President, likely believing he has been the best President America has ever had.
His strategy to label news that points out his failures as 'Fake News' gives his mind a great deal of mental protection against facing his delusions .. as the 'evidence' of his failures after all is .. fake.
No amount of polling, prominent people pointing out is failures, clear evidence of his extremely low ratings (like crowd turn-outs, etc) .. will get through .. it's all fake in his mind.
Well played Trump, hopefully it will keep you from totally losing your mind whilst having Presidential Powers.
09:49am 15/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39071 posts
There seems to be little point in carrying on about Russia changing the election outcome.
I think it's extremely important /for the future/. If all it takes to swing an election one way or the other is for another nation state to spend a few bucks on Twitter trolls, we need to know about it and patch this bug in democracy.

More importantly it serves as a strong reminder that we need to make sure our voting systems are tamper resistant - and for the moment that means doing it on paper.
05:58pm 15/07/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4026 posts
Potential Russian hacking (or whatever they want to call it) is just another story.

If there was truly evidence of hacking surely it would have been released. The best I've seen is breached access to a number of election systems with no evidence of vote changes, etc.
wtf? The CIA have said that Russia had tried to directly hack the election and that Putin was either involved or at the very least aware of the fact. How is that any different than any other direct attack upon a country?

If you haven't been paying attention, the people in charge of the servers that handle the election were mailed with very official looking emails laced with malware that came from Russia. No they didn't succeed in getting access to the servers and violating the election results but it is 100% an example of shots fired directly at the US from Russia and people seem to be able to completely rationalize it away because it wasn't a conventional method of warfare.

It's a direct attack on US democracy and everyone should be freaked out by it.
12:46am 16/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25938 posts
In non-Trump news it was announced today that the military may be used in the event of a terrorist incident. Here's a picture of some soldiers posing for the announcement.

https://image.ibb.co/hrgU0F/military_police.jpg
temporary image host


Is that supposed to be impressive or something?

Is this all coming from the police failure at the Lindt Cafe? Seems heavy handed to me. I remember my older brother asking me why they didn't just send the SAS in to storm the building and I said the military are more about kill the enemy at all costs whereas the police are trained to rescue innocents and arrest the assailant. No idea whether that's even true or not but made sense to me at the time.

Now my older brother is completely apolitical so I didn't bother explaining how one of great lessons of history is to never deploy a nation's military against its own citizens unless it's absolutely necessary. What constitutes absolutely necessary is highly arguable, but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that one siege by an unconnected terrorist would be grounds. It will be interesting to see when something does inevitably happen just how keen the government will be to deploy troops, and how much they'll f*** the dog with confirmed muppet Dutton in charge of them.
09:21pm 17/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5468 posts
It's pretty common when a Government is failing horribly they start pushing the national security buttons, and ramping up the terrorist threat rhetoric at the same time.
Let's see what other laws they come up with to restrict our freedom & privacy, handing further success to terrorism.
10:05pm 17/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12849 posts
It all makes sense now, why the greens always seem to be so un-Australian...
Most of them arent.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/07/18/13/16/queensland-greens-senator-larissa-waters-expected-to-resign

I agree Vash, Turnbull is trying to look like hes a man of action.
I noticed he didnt once mention Islamic Terrorism.
But most insiders know this is a cynical attempt to give Dutton some power and prevent him from replacing Mr Magoo.

The Coalition are a rabble
the greens are a rabble
and Labor ? well Turnbull stole all their Policies.

What a disgrace our Parliament is.


03:26pm 18/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
4138 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: genuinely embarrassing
Send Private Message
07:22pm 18/07/17 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
16766 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.
07:10am 19/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7675 posts
translation: Senator known for breast feeding in parliament has been dismissed.

sounds a bit dull, so I spruced it up with a bit of boganese - purely for comedy reasons.

Well that's my case and I'm sticking to it.
08:01am 19/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39077 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.
hmm, I think there's a big difference between the militarisation of police (which I agree is generally terrible) and adding soldiers into the local law enforcement routine - which may be terrible but I'm not quite sure.

The reason I'm not sure it's terrible is precisely because I'd rather the police /not/ be militarised. So when dealing with a military-level threat it makes more sense (to me anyway) to bring in specially trained forces from the military with their military grade weapons and stuff. Rather than giving the police tanks and assault rifles and grenades.

HOWEVER

It's important to remember that we have had zero incidents in Australia (or here in the UK) that require even the slightest departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Pretending that there is some sort of secret army of well-armed terrorists that require an SAS level response is terror theatre that, as with almost everything else from the government in the last few years, makes me embarrassed to be Australian.

(It is believed that the UK SAS have a squad based in London ready to be deployed in the event of a serious incident. They were allegedly deployed by chopper after the London Bridge one a couple months ago but they arrived well after the regular police - who turned up in like seven minutes and resolved the situation immediately, like they did at Westminster. )

To me this looks exactly like a case of "we need to be seen to be doing something, so let's do something"
06:05pm 19/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2102 posts
08:35pm 19/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25939 posts
The good thing is they haven't received the money yet. If they do, then they'll pretty much have no choice but to spend it on its intended purpose which seems like a good thing to me. No way would that have happened if a light wasn't shone on this story.
08:39pm 19/07/17 Permalink
shody
Brisbane, Queensland
92 posts
Hmm looks like some soldiers will be permanently embedded with police.

I'm not a big fan of the militarisation of police services.


Just on this note, has anyone else noticed how police have gone from wearing light blue shirts with a gun on their belt, to dark blue shirts with vests full of things that look like they'll hurt you?

It's been a slow transition over probably 5+ years, but they definitely look a lot more like military than they used to.

There are still some in the light blue, so it might just be a distinguishing uniform for types of police or something, but they certainly don't look as approachable in the dark get up.
06:41am 20/07/17 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6602 posts
It's important to remember that we have had zero incidents in Australia (or here in the UK) that require even the slightest departures from the current means the police have at their disposal.


The Coroner report into the Sydney siege very heavily suggested a few departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Including the assistance (including equipment if required) from the ADF.
07:32am 20/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2659 posts
yeah, I would wait to see exactly what they are proposing to do in respect of the adf and the police. I've read somewhere that the london bridge attack being put down so quickly was actually a result of military tactical training (notwithstanding no SAS people were actually deployed). With that said I'm pretty sure the coroner's report also mentioned an unclear leadership structure in there somewhere. There is some irony in attempting to solve that by creating another agency.

Mixing ASIO with the immigration department seems like it warrants raising an eyebrow. This will almost certainly create a broader range of issues/topics that get caught up in ASIO's ability to make things secret.

Boarder force is hardly the gold standard of transparency as it is.
06:37pm 20/07/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3293 posts
London's pretty used to and well prepared now, for these kinds of things I think. The 8 minute wrap time on the London Bridge incident was impressive I thought. Although bear in mind they did shoot one civilian accidentally.
07:02pm 20/07/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39080 posts
The Coroner report into the Sydney siege very heavily suggested a few departures from the current means the police have at their disposal. Including the assistance (including equipment if required) from the ADF.
I guess I am assuming the "current means" includes the ability to deal with random one off hostage taking f***wits.

But that might just be based on watching too many movies.
07:05pm 20/07/17 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
9463 posts
I guess I am assuming the "current means" includes the ability to deal with random one off hostage taking f***wits.

But that might just be based on watching too many movies.


At first glance the response in the report seems absurd - "Militarization of what should be a police operation? That's insane!"

But then you have to realise that here in Australia the reality is that we have so few of these incidents of such severity that in fact maybe it actually might make sense that those severe incidents, when we have them happen infrequently, actually do get handled by a group trained to handle much more intense situations - even though what we saw here is nothing compared to what you might see from... well, a movie really. But on the surface it sounds like a bad idea, it may - just maybe - have some merit to it if grounded by adequate rules.
08:09pm 20/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21310 posts
Donald sure seems to be going into melt down on twitter over this big 'nothing' russian investigation
08:34am 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25941 posts
It's glorious because not only is it really funny right now it will still be there when all the s*** finally unfolds and I have a very good feeling it's hilarity will only increase in value.
08:37am 23/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7676 posts
ha ha

10:25am 23/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2660 posts
I just want you to be ready fpot when, probably years from now, no definitive link is ever established. It's really going to make you want to call people nazis.
02:00pm 23/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2103 posts
PP, the true believer.

How rattled must a president be that he's talking pardons?
02:49pm 23/07/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21312 posts
Yeah it is interesting why he would be talking about presidential pardons
05:46pm 23/07/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2661 posts
Probably to pardon someone of a crime. Which crime seems to be the important bit.
06:27pm 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25942 posts
hehe, poor old PP gets upset when people make fun of his main man Donald Trump.
07:58pm 23/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25943 posts
Today the President of The United States of America attacked the free press in front of a group of boy scouts.
07:21pm 25/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5470 posts
And also today, a LNP MP quits cabinet because he may hold dual citizenship. Suddenly most of the conservatives nuggets are showing up saying 'he didn't know'
oh, what about the two Green senators, my dearies?
07:42pm 25/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25944 posts
Psychiatry group tells members they can defy ‘Goldwater rule’ and comment on Trump’s mental healthI wonder if others follow suit?

I know the Goldwater Law is real important and all, but is it more important than properly identifying a mentally ill person in an immense seat of power so some sort of mitigation plan can occur?
11:53pm 25/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2107 posts
11:12am 26/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2108 posts
Is facey british because his dad is?

https://twitter.com/i/moments/890019134045511680

Senator Malcolm Roberts has refused to provide evidence he has renounced his British citizenship following a BuzzFeed report showing he had previously travelled on a UK passport.


How many MPs are foreign spies?
08:13pm 26/07/17 Permalink
Vash
5471 posts
Senator Matthew Canavan's account of unwittingly becoming a dual citizen doesn't add up. A visa procurement associate at one of Italy’s largest immigration law firms said there was no way parents could apply for citizenship on behalf of their adult children. Every application – in Italy or abroad – must be carried out in person.


Slimey & the reptile trying to hold onto power kicking & screaming. The Greens senators quit on the spot with dignity.
10:40am 27/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25945 posts
06:42pm 27/07/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12856 posts
I am a Transgender Denier.
But willing to be convinced by Falsifiable Evidence.

The War on Christmas..
Now you cant say Jesus name in the playground but the Tuckshop is Halal.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/no-christ-in-christmas-next-school-jesus-ban-spark/3205543/


can we have a code or some post thing where we can post content from FaceBook ?
I did figure it out a while back but I cant rem the code.




12:41pm 28/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25947 posts
Today in a speech given to law enforcement people, the President of The United States of America endorsed police brutality.
05:26pm 29/07/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7679 posts
All religions and all ideologies pretending to be religions should be banned from schools. time for humanity to step out of the cave.
05:43pm 29/07/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4610 posts
JK Rowling's misuse of "whom" in that quote distracts me from the overall point
04:27pm 30/07/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2109 posts

The War on Christmas..
Now you cant say Jesus name in the playground but the Tuckshop is Halal.

We should be celebrating the true origins of Christmas which are the solstice and be worshiping the sun god Sol.

Why has Sol been banned in classrooms? Bloody lefty loons have gone too far this time!
06:59pm 30/07/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25952 posts
Trump removes Anthony Scaramucci as White House communications director

There really are no words to describe the s*** f*** that is going on that aren't tired and stringy at this point so how about we all chuckle quietly to ourselves while shaking our heads instead.

edit: and after days of this terrorist bulls***, we finally find out their cunning plan - to smuggle a meat grinder onto a flight in carry on luggage. Thank god that plot was foiled!
03:03pm 01/08/17 Permalink
Insom
Brisbane, Queensland
4613 posts
yeah I'd have been pretty embarrassed to die in a meat grinder based attack

mortified even
06:19pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25953 posts
Flights grounded by improvised meat grinder.
06:35pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2663 posts
Meat grinder containing a bomb while in communication with Syrian bomb makers by their own admission.

don't sweat the small stuff bro
07:31pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25954 posts
A giant hunk of metal with weird stuff inside and a plan to get it on a flight via carry on luggage is the work of a seasoned professional and is surely worth the days of 'TERRORIST SHOCK! AUSTRALIAN POLICE CRACK IMMINENT TERRORIST PLOT' with the PM thanking his lucky stars that these cunning geniuses were caught.

For someone who is so critical of news agencies when they're speaking badly about your hero and prophet you seem awfully lax about this giant beat up.

edit: I don't reckon a white guy could get a meat grinder onto a plane without it being looked at even if it was in their check-in luggage.
07:45pm 01/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39097 posts
As usual the best part of the Mooch debacle is the memes. I lost the tweet I saw it in but there was one this morning saying how it was pretty harsh firing someone with boneitis.
08:01pm 01/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40721 posts
pretty sure old mate terrorist had connections with airlines, so it wasnt going through the front door*


*i love news.com.au and its one of my main sources of news.
08:11pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25955 posts
My only regret is that I have joined the Trump administration.

edit: hey don't get me wrong, newsworthy for sure. But the cynic in me just can't help but think that the whole thing has been given a nudge, especially with the recent announcement of Dutton's Home Affairs Ministry.
08:13pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2664 posts
For someone who is so critical of news agencies when they're speaking badly about your hero and prophet you seem awfully lax about this giant beat up.


I am critical of bald faced naked partisanship in newspapers. This is radically different, every newspaper in the country is reporting basically the same facts. The police have brought their case before the court and the court have granted orders. But clutch those straws fpot.

But the cynic in me just can't help but think that the whole thing has been given a nudge, especially with the recent announcement of Dutton's Home Affairs Ministry.


And there it is. You even managed to get race into the bargain. There is a nazi reference lurking out there buddy. I want to believe.
09:29pm 01/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25957 posts
heh and there what is? That an unpopular government would promote a security scare to try and gain popularity? I don't think they even bother printing that one in the playbook anymore.

Not quite sure how that amounts to race, but since I've already been penalised for it, I might just add that it also makes for a nice distraction from the absolute clusterf*** that's occurring on Manus right now.
10:17pm 01/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2665 posts
Not quite sure how that amounts to race, but since I've already been penalised for it,


Lets see if we can get this dog to leap a little higher for you oh master of cynical wisdom.

I don't reckon a white guy
That an unpopular government would promote a security scare to try and gain popularity?


It could be that. Or it could be exactly as it seems and a bunch of radical Islamists were trying to blow up a plane. It'd only be the thousandth time since 9/11.

for a nice distraction from the absolute clusterf*** that's occurring on Manus right now.


Link Manus to race for us please? And remind us how prominent a story it was for the last year? Or to state in a way that the obvious point doesn't escape you, what need has the government of a distraction from Manus island right now?

Do they not need a distraction from Nauru? Or did your failure to mention it kind of demonstrate my point?
07:36am 02/08/17 Permalink
Dazzagc
Gold Coast, Queensland
1559 posts
03:03pm 03/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40724 posts
wow, Pisasale going down like a sack of s***.

07:37pm 03/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7683 posts
“If you’re not living in Sydney then you’re camping out” Paul Keating.
Hmmm

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/08/tent-city-shines-light-sydneys-housing-crisis/
08:33pm 03/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2117 posts
Love it how the premier being made to feel uncomfortable. Gov has so many things it could do for affordable housing but it just wants the mayor to move them on.

Typical "let them eat cake" from the ruling class..
08:59am 04/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21321 posts
wow, Pisasale going down like a sack of s***.


definitely isn't the only mayor up to no good

but i think he got a little bit too loosey goosey with it
09:30am 04/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5474 posts
Love it how the premier being made to feel uncomfortable. Gov has so many things it could do for affordable housing but it just wants the mayor to move them on.

Typical "let them eat cake" from the ruling class..


And Abbott showing those true Catholic values by saying the homeless should be moved on with 'great vigour if necessary'
02:26pm 04/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25959 posts
That Trump/Turnbull transcript is simply extraordinary.
09:29pm 04/08/17 Permalink
taggs
6501 posts
I'm generally not a fan of turnbull but I thought he did a great job on that call based on the transcript.
09:35pm 04/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25960 posts
Yeah he's a pro. Might just be that he was juxtaposed next to a blithering idiot.

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel and describing them as product was callous as f***, though.
09:41pm 04/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2666 posts
Guys.

Last week.

The PRESIDENT of the United States. In the White house. In America. Said "Paddy Wagon".

I want you all to know help is available in this difficult time. We've set up a hotline to help you talk through any emotions you maybe feeling at this time.

I only bring it up because the same paper that reported this leaked the phone call transcript. I implacably trust an outlet that is bringing the P R E S I D E N T to account on this heinous usage of "p***y wagon" not to abuse its trust in the release by anonymous white house workers of documents which are in no way whatsoever politically motivated and are definitely concerned citizens working to prevent the 4th Reich. The editorial standards at play that allowed this required expose on "p***y wagon" to be published ensure our trust in the washington post is well founded.
05:48pm 07/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39118 posts
Interesting read about (temporary?) decriminalisation of prostitution in one US state. The study they refer to for the article found: "Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009. "
07:37pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25964 posts
Chief Defender of the Faith.
07:39pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2667 posts
A chattel is moveable property. french term don't you know. associated with slavery.

How did Turnbull discuss the people as moveable *property*?

Then discuss "the faith" sweet cheeks.

Don't take your penis out if you don't have to fpot. It's rude.

He really did say "p***y wagon" fpot. I guess you're racist against Irish because you don't care.
07:47pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25965 posts
https://preview.ibb.co/d8Z3Ga/dumbshoes.png

Right there dumbshoes. Maybe learn to read or something, it really helps you not look like an idiot!

And a little bit of maybe it's YOU who is the real racist as well. He's on fire!

At least you're not bothering to pretend to be anything more than another alt-right dolt anymore. That was really painful to read.
08:06pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2668 posts
What's the product in that sentence fpot?

could it be passage to Australia? Or is it slaves?

alt-right dolt anymore.


LOL he is a NAZI.

You're a moron.

08:14pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25966 posts
The product are the people seeking political asylum into Australia.

This is your big chance to say, oops, I accidentally skipped over that bit and you're right, Turnbull did describe a bunch of people as product and that is perhaps a bad thing to do. This could indicate that somewhere there lurks a human being rather than some sort of alpha version Trump defense twitter bot (maybe he'll retweet you!)

But nope, just more of your stale bulls***. Keep it coming though, you're the only one left in the thread and hearing the wind whistle over the bottomless pit of your cognitive dissonance is one of the things that keep it interesting.
09:14pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2669 posts
The product are the people seeking political asylum into Australia.


Specifically, fpot ,for the class.

does this

seeking political asylum into Australia.


Require passage to Australia.

Are the people currently in detention actual slaves?

If you would like to talk about the human rights issues we can. but you need to cut the s*** (it doesn't involve slavery in any form, wanker). it is bulls*** hyperbole you are engaged in and nothing more. It hurts you, and worse hurts the people in detention, making these hysterical claims.
09:27pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25968 posts
In the english language words can mean more than one thing. To read chattel and attribute an anachronistic definition like you have isn't the smartest move. I personally would have gone with the definition that corresponds with how the word chattel is usually used in day to day language in the context that I used it. House ornaments, cheap plastic furniture and crockery are things usually described as chattel when I speak with people. Do you speak with people much Pete? Do you know how to use context clues when reading sentences Pete?
09:34pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25969 posts
Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect. They may stuff it with tissue paper before moving it to avoid breakage for example.

The Australian Government physically tortures their chattel and then leaves it to rot in the forest once it dies.

Manus Island asylum seeker's friends begged Australia for help before his death
09:48pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2670 posts
oh so chattel can definitely mean slave, and a bunch of things that definitely aren't slavery.

So I guess you mean they aren't slaves. Because nobody, ever, at any point has claimed those people as chattel.

You're just the kind of d******* who likes to be loose with their language to imply the worst of their opponent.

You're low rent fpot. but you think your revolting brand of 'empathy' makes you virtuous.

oh wow
Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


You're not even trying to be serious fpot. f*** off troll
09:51pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25970 posts
The expression 'to treat someone/thing like chattel' is so ridiculously common and so well understood that I am kind of shocked at how much you have f***ed it up. S***, I even admit I might be wrong about my definition of it, and when people say it they might have meant to treat people like slaves. It's basically a total cliche though, and for you to read it and go head first into some tangent about how I think asylum seekers are literal slaves (???) is really weird and I think someone might need to write some better code because this twitter bot seems a bit f***ed up.
10:02pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2671 posts
Oh so you're ignorant of the terms you use.

that's much better.

Chattel is a legal term for property fpot. human Chattel is the *definition* of slavery. if you're ignorant of this you're opinion is worth less than nothing on the subject (which is probably accurate). If you're not you're willfully misrepresenting the situation.

10:09pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25971 posts
When you hear someone say I am so hungry I could eat a horse, do you immediately start discussing the rather difficult logistics behind eating a horse at that time, and how better tasting and more easily obtainable food could be more easily located and prepared to satisfy their nutritional requirements? And if you do, and once it has been pointed out that this person in fact does not want to eat a horse, and was instead using exaggeration as a rhetorical device to more easily express their hunger in a way that may be more relatable to other people than starkly expressing it, do you then start trying to tell them that they're ignorant of the terms they use and deliberately misrepresenting the situation making their opinion worthless?
10:15pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2672 posts
Oh so you in no way meant to imply slavery by your "colloquial" use of chattel. Which also happens to be the standard usage of the word to imply slavery.

It's so obvious that's what you meant.

Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


Ok uncle tom.

10:19pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25972 posts
Why do you have the word colloquial in scare quotes? It's the only thing you've gotten right so far tonight.

And I have an autoplay blocker so all I am seeing is grey squares. I am sure the videos you're posting are all hilarious burns, though!
10:26pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2673 posts
Chattel means property fpot. nobody uses that word to mean oppressed generally.

Are gay people who can't get married "chattel"? are homeless people "chattel"

I bought a guy a hot chocolate today because it was cold. society has so chatteled him.

Do not pretend the use of that word is not intended to imply slavery. you can't seriously be arguing

Of course, people often treat their chattel with some degree of respect.


doesn't imply ownership in the sense of property.

So trog does train wreck of humanity apply yet?

And I have an autoplay blocker so all I am seeing is grey squares.


Thats a shame.
10:31pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25973 posts
Type 'treated like chattel' into google. Tell me what you see.
10:36pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2674 posts
Tell me "treated like chattel" doesn't imply slavery.

Plus first result.



Definition of chattel

1
: an item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (such as buildings) connected with real property

2
: slave, bondman slaveholders who were determined to hold on to their human chattel


I particularly like how it doesn't include general discomfort and is entirely about property. I'm so sorry I had your totally "legit" intentions wrong.

Dude you had that ass spanked. Again. You're an idiot.

*edit*
watch the videos.
*/edit*
10:39pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25974 posts
In the context I used it, clearly not.

Trump and Turnbull were negotiating a prisoner (that's what they are see, prisoners) exchange, the asylum seekers were bargaining chips in that negotiation, to treat them like chattel is to treat them like objects of little value in an effort to score political points, which is what was happening.

Now I'm getting a little self-conscious about this conversation. It's gone way longer than it should have and people are thinking we're crazy. But surely you get it now?
10:52pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2675 posts
Aww now you beaten the backpeddle proper starts.

No I dont get it fpot.

so you don't mean turnbull used them like property.

but you used a term which, according to the dictionary, means property, but you didn't mean that. You meant something else. The common usage of the word had no alignment with.

people might be embarrassed. you're the only dog that should feel shame.
10:58pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25975 posts
What I was hoping you'd see when you googled were the tens of thousands of examples of people using the expression in the exact same context that I did. Instead you saw the one definition and used it again to misrepresent what I said. The wind continues to whistle.
11:05pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2676 posts
You can hope all you want, that I'd take a blatantly naive view of your words.

What possible reason have you given for me to do that fpot?

You used the word. You defend it's usage.
11:11pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25976 posts
What possible reason have you given for me to do that fpot?
I think you made an honest mistake first up. Once it was pointed out instead of oops I made a mistake I get post after post of you doubling down trying to hide it rather than learning from it. I think you probably do this a lot which explains why you're a worthless alt-right s***heel.
11:16pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2677 posts
There is nothing to learn fpot.

You use the word Chattel. You claim you didn't mean slave. The ordinary meaning of the word in relation humans is slave. you gave no indication whatsoever you were using a special meaning.

LOL he is NAZI. Low rent b****.

You're f*****g pathetic.
11:21pm 07/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25977 posts
I honestly thought when I said all the horse stuff you'd either realise or at the very least stop posting and go on a shame break after losing an internet argument because from what I can see, it affects you so deeply you aren't even able to admit to a stranger that you have gotten something simple so plainly wrong. I'll try the horse thing again, but I'll PornoPete it up a bit for easier understanding.

John says he is so hungry he can eat a horse. Jane understands that John is hungry but that he doesn't literally want to eat a horse. John doesn't give any indication that he wasn't being literal, because Jane is familiar with the expression and understands what he means.

fpot says the Australian Government treat asylum seekers like chattel. forumguy understands that fpot is not trying to say a bunch of people who clearly aren't slaves in fact are. That is because he has read the transcript of the conversation fpot is referring to and is able to understand the context of words in a sentence.

You obviously weren't familiar with the expression, and so misunderstood what I meant. You are so afraid of admitting that you are wrong about something that you will write a whole bunch of posts containing nothing but bulls*** to stop yourself from doing so. And you call me pathetic?
11:31pm 07/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2678 posts
I'll try the horse thing again, but I'll PornoPete it up a bit for easier understanding.


You can't beat me fpot. You used the word to imply slavery. It was the obvious intention of your words.

The fact that you are trying to suggest that there is another ordinary meaning to what you said is pathetic.

Alt right is a losers argument.

You meant slave. You know you did.

The fact that it could possibly used (and utterly unnaturally) to mean people "generally deprived" (who nobody uses it to mean) notwithstanding.

You aren't righteous



watch the video
11:41pm 07/08/17 Permalink
chairumpire
Other International
1 posts
i do believe PP has articulated the minutiae of your leading alt right pointing there fpot, but it's time to chalk that one up to a lesson in revealing your embedded culturally arcane priorities as a belief or trained sentiment of that issue in fluency

it was a spirited and entertaining defense of the curl you were able to maintain there though, so yay for you
12:09am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2679 posts
livin la vida loca will suffice.
12:12am 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25978 posts
See this is the problem with trying to create some sort of pretext to your personality on an internet forum. You start off posting all normal and making the effort to listen and reply properly at first. Then you started going a bit weird. Heaps of spelling mistakes and stuff in your posts and a more aggressive tone as defending Trump got harder and harder. As his situation worsened so did you, becoming a bigger and bigger d*** as time goes by to the point where your posts are almost unrecognisable to when you first started posting in the politics thread. You know where you'll post something you think is some massive zinger and then just start quoting yourself again and again like your the Pope of Internet Posting Town.

And look where we are now. A full blown d******* so mentally fragile and pathetic you can't even admit to this one trivial thing. Bulls***ting all the way to market when you could've backed up all that hard work you did trying to convince people you were a normal guy with a simple hey never heard that expression before I understand what you mean now that you've explained it. That's all it would have taken, but you were incapable of doing so. You've proved honesty is completely out of bounds when it comes to what you write on here, so just ask yourself what being incapable of a thing like that says about you and try and learn from the answer that for your sake hopefully pops into your head.

edit: now I know having the last word allows yourself to be declared the winner and how that is a very important part of you feeling good, so go ahead and have it tonight. I am very interested in starting off the healing process for you.
12:18am 08/08/17 Permalink
chairumpire
Other International
2 posts
forget it he want's to play personality politics

he's probably a party donator

last edited by chairumpire at 00:36:21 08/Aug/17
12:29am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2680 posts
IF FPOT REPLIES TO THIS HE IS A C*** FOREVER.
12:46am 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2682 posts
And look where we are now. A full blown d******* so mentally fragile and pathetic you can't even admit to this one trivial thing


Oh fpot. What a funny little guy you are. Its like a projectionathon.

The *ordinary meaning* of the word chattel in relation to humans is slave. You used the word to imply that Australia is engaged in slavery.

You even produced a screen cap to back your claim (that people were referred to as slaves), where the obvious meaning of the sentence is passage to Australia.

Now you've had your ass spanked so hard you've decided to play the man instead of the ball and you can't even do that convincingly.

You use low rent tactics which are transparent as f***. call me a NAZI call me racist. Call Australia racist.

It's funny because even your most articulate arguments are just straight foward ad hominems. At least I'll call you c*** straight to your face with out pretending its an argument. You are just a low rent dummy. But it is fun to taunt you. Look at how righteous you think you are.
10:02am 08/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21324 posts
see trump started his own propaganda news channel on facebook

lol
04:51pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25981 posts
Remember when us westerners used to laugh at those state run channels in the middle-east and other countries run by dictators? They seemed so weird and flagrantly transparent and I must admit back in the early 2000s when I first saw them I thought they may be some sort of US propaganda thing - look at how bad these countries are we must save them! Now the President of the United States has created one.
05:05pm 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2683 posts
I wonder if he considers it a chattel hey fpot?

CNN are saying its exactly like North Korea state television. That's pretty funny.

They seemed so weird and flagrantly transparent and I must admit back in the early 2000s when I first saw them I thought they may be some sort of US propaganda thing


What did you mean here fpot? That you thought that state television of *another* country was US propaganda?

Let me guess. as way of creating a pretext for invasion right?
05:12pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25982 posts
I had a second or two of disbelief that people could actually watch such complete and utter bulls*** and believe it. But I've never really been big on vast complicated conspiracies so it didn't take me long to realise that the US setting up some fake state run channel to gain a few supporters for an invasion didn't really make any sense at all. Thought that was all pretty clear in my original post but hey I don't mind explaining things for people.

Fast forward to now and the President of the United States has started his very own state run news network, and judging from some of the comments I have read on the youtube of it I just watched, people are actually praising it and are thankful that the truth is finally coming out. North Korea have a state run channel beaming out non-stop bulls*** propaganda to its citizens. The United States have a state run channel beaming out non-stop bulls*** propaganda to its citizens. The only difference I can see is that the people of NK are arguably the most oppressed in the world and due to the social conditioning that brings may be susceptible to believing it. The weak as piss yanks who lap this s*** up and believe it, what's their excuse?
05:21pm 08/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2684 posts
North Korea also bans all other television fpot, under penalty of death.

So there is a little bit of gap there.

I expect that the yanks who are watching it are lapping it up because CNN purports to be a news channel and likened it to DPKR news.

There is also the fact that large swathes of the mainstream press aren't even trying to give balanced coverage to trump.

Between his propaganda and CNN and WAPO's I expect you can cobble together something approximating the truth.
05:40pm 08/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39123 posts
ugh what a staggering waste of money. I am totally pro gay marriage (or perhaps more accurately, totally anti the government having any f*****g thing to do with it) but this seems Bad.
05:47pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1103 posts
ugh what a staggering waste of money. I am totally pro gay marriage (or perhaps more accurately, totally anti the government having any f*****g thing to do with it) but this seems Bad.


Even more bad if it turns out that some of the legal advice I'm seen floating around, about how the government can't hold such a plebiscite without a parliamentary vote authorising it, turns out to be true.

Then it becomes even more of a complete waste of money.

Just hold a vote in parliament already and legalise it.
09:23pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5476 posts
http://i.imgur.com/jHw3nrs.jpg

Pope nailing it as usual
09:46pm 08/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25984 posts
It must be easy to draw comics like this when you live in the future.
11:11pm 08/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40739 posts
things i didnt think id see on the internets today: a spirited multi post debate on the definition and uses of the word "chattel"
06:13am 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25985 posts
I imagined that the asylum seekers held in Manus were slaves all of a sudden, for some reason, and the millions of times chattel has been used in the same way I did all of a sudden didn't exist. I think that language singularity event may be over and it may be safe not to take words at their literal face value again.
01:21pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2685 posts
You literally said like property fpot. Repeatedly.

Then you said they were referred to as product in a laughablely tortured reading of the ordinary words in the sentence "we had deny the people smugglers of their product". Last I checked no-one has ever claimed people smugglers are producing refugees. Except you now, to try and worm out a retarded reading of a sentence.

I can't find a single definition of the word chattel that doesn't bring up slavery, or property. So stop pretending you're using a totally ordinary everyday usage of the word, when you say it doesn't imply slavery.

A chattel is property. this is the only meaning the word has ever or will ever have.

Humans who are property are slaves.

It isn't difficult.

The reason you used those words is to imply racism. It's basically your only trick.
07:04pm 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25986 posts
heh

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel and describing them as product was callous as f***, though.
There it is. My original throwaway comment where I used an extremely common expression to voice my displeasure at how asylum seekers are treated, as well as how I thought it was objectionable that Turnbull described people as product. Really simple stuff.

Then you make some pissweak attempt to throw water on the dumpster fire that is Trump which I find a little funny, so I sass you a bit over it. Then it begins, the great PornoPete meltdown where for some reason you seem to think I've decided the detainees have been turned into slaves, possibly by some sort of bizarro God Mother. At first I was proper confused until I realised you may not have heard the expression before, so I explain and well... it's all right there.

All those things you've accused others of - taking the first google result they find and running with it, not arguing in good faith, Dunning-Kruger effect. It's all you now bro! You are so deluded in your own ability you think you can never be wrong. You'll go to Cartmanesque levels of denial to try and keep that fantasy alive in your head. Your cards are marked - you're a fragile little s***head who can't admit he's wrong on the internet. Your sole purpose here is to scream and defend Trump and anything that goes against it is fake news or no big deal or whatever lie you decide to use.
08:57pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2686 posts
Turnbull. Didn't. Describe. People. As. Product.

Trading these people's lives like they're chattel


And this in no way implies slavery hey?

He is trading them like *word that literally means property* doesn't imply slavery. yeah ok.

When you can find me a quote in context where trading people like chattel doesn't mean slavery I'll admit I was wrong.

Every single example in that google search you linked to, all of them, are making an analogy with slavery.

He deplored the way players were treated like chattel on the one hand, deployed as seen fit, and children on the other, held to restrictive behavioral standard
Women are treated like chattel, not to mention the slave trade
OPSWAT - Overworked, underpaid, treated like chattel.
He treated his wife as little more than a chattel. goods and chattels


Shall I go on? or do you get the point yet? Treated like chattel, means slavery. And when people use it for non-slavery conditions, it is without exception a hyperbolic analogy to slavery.

You were very plainly trying to imply racism through an allusion to slavery fpot. because in your simple little world slavery is something white people do to black people.

You have one mode. Call something you disagree with racism or nazism.

you're a fragile little s***head who can't admit he's wrong on the internet.


haha. you can't even play the man well fpot. pathetic armchair psychoanalysis.
09:35pm 09/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25987 posts
Literally speechless. Undecided as of yet whether I should adopt you as my new Brool insult pinata or just add you to my ignore list like faceman. If you get a reply to the next dumb thing you say (after tonight because holy moly am I sick of this) you'll know what I've decided on.

edit: like, not only are you never wrong, you also think you get to decide what the words other people say mean. I'd ask you if you realised how narcissistic and d***ish that is, but you're obviously so far down your own a****** you probably can't even see it.
09:41pm 09/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2687 posts
When you can find me a quote in context where trading people like chattel doesn't mean slavery I'll admit I was wrong.


So that would be a no then would it fpot?

Insult pinta. That's a good one. I look forward to you calling me racist in a all new ways.

You pointed to list of usage of the term "like chattel" in which they were all making reference to slavery, but you didn't mean it that way and people generally don't use it to refer to slavery because reasons.

but before you go on your epic shutdown of calling me racist. Think on this. Do I defend trump or do I attack idiot breathless commentary on him?

You're pretty good at idiot breathless commentary. See if you can join the dots you low rent moron.

I know you read JK Rowling's twitter feed. You didn't mention the time last week she doctored footage to make it look like trump was mean to a disabled kid. Instead you got your panties in a scrunch over a phone call discussing a deal made with obama. A phone call we knew the content of six months ago I might add.

Did obama "treat them like chattel" or was it just an ordinary deal between allies?

And we get an endless stream of.

Guys. Today. The President. (insert thing fpot finds offensive, typically missing important context, but is actually not at all serious).

Trump has broken you and a great many other people fpot. The record speaks for itself.
06:57am 10/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40744 posts
oh goody, this is still going!
07:11am 10/08/17 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
25990 posts

https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/north-korea-081017.html

The harsh rhetoric from Washington and Pyongyang during recent months has exacerbated an already confrontational relationship between our countries, and has probably eliminated any chance of good faith peace talks between the United States and North Korea. In addition to restraining the warlike rhetoric, our leaders need to encourage talks between North Korea and other countries, especially China and Russia. The recent UN Security Council unanimous vote for new sanctions suggests that these countries could help. In all cases, a nuclear exchange must be avoided. All parties must assure North Koreans they we will forego any military action against them if North Korea remains peaceful.
Remember when we had real presidents? It almost seems like a different world. Not a whisper of a nuclear threat since the end of the cold war, and just 202 days into Trump's administration the whispers have started again. That fire and fury thing would be laughable if you were unaware of its implications.
09:05pm 11/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5477 posts
But fpot, it's not at all a serious situation. All is well.

Trump has broken you and a great many other people fpot. The record speaks for itself.


Still waiting for that criticism. The many who criticise him & his decisions isn't Trump 'breaking a great many people' by the way.
If anything the record shows Trump is disapproved by much of his constituency, which democratically, means he's failing at the Presidency. The record speaks for itself.
09:40pm 11/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2688 posts
Guys, On the 21st of June.

The President lied. of the United States. Of America. He claimed Environmental laws encompass puddles, when they don't.

I know. I was literally shaking. I can't remember the last time a President raped my ears like this.

If you want to see a professional cuddler to help you through this difficult time, I know a guy.
08:51am 12/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2689 posts
Guys. Today. The President. (insert thing fpot finds offensive, typically missing important context, but is actually not at all serious).


Damn I'm good.

Not counting 25 years of diplomatic crises with NK, 15 years with Iran, and a war with Iraq over WMD including a "nuclear threat", Not a whisper of a nuclear threat since the end of the cold war,

fixed that there for you fpot.
03:32pm 12/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5479 posts
Asked how he would react if Ivanka posed for Playboy, Trump replied: "It would be really disappointing — not really — but it would depend on what's inside the magazine." "I don't think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her."


Such a man is really what we want as a leader of the free world. He's really sticking it to em'
We've really been broken by this guy. Shockingly.
09:12pm 12/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2124 posts
Guys, On the 21st of June.

The President lied. of the United States. Of America. He claimed Environmental laws encompass puddles, when they don't.

I know. I was literally shaking. I can't remember the last time a President raped my ears like this.

If you want to see a professional cuddler to help you through this difficult time, I know a guy.


Shorter PP: The media calling out a politician for lying is bad you guys.
01:39pm 13/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5481 posts
More right-wing violence today. This is getting out of hand.

http://i.imgur.com/UfoVUFk.jpg

Some Nationalist pages seem to be celebrating.
03:36pm 13/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2125 posts
More right-wing violence today. This is getting out of hand.

I think you mean terrorism.
04:37pm 13/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2690 posts
The media calling out a politician for lying is bad you guys.


Yes lying. that's what the media is calling out there. Every single one of those claims is debatable. All of them. But he was lying. about matters of high national importance. Strangely the only president in history the NYtimes has felt the need to create a day by day file on, including even the most trivial statements.
05:10pm 13/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39140 posts
I would be fascinated to see their Facebook pages evolve as they slowly learn freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences
07:57pm 13/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21330 posts
Pretty hard to condemn white supremacists and bigots when your whole political campaign was based on bigotry and racism 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
08:46am 14/08/17 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
19120 posts
so barnaby joyce is a confirmed kiwi. bet he wont resign.
03:03pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10638 posts
LNP can't legalize gay marriage, it's so important we should all have a say.

Do I get a postal vote on North Korea as well?

But in saying that they aren't a legally elected government anymore.
05:32pm 14/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7695 posts
10:35pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5484 posts
Shorten beat Tones @ City 2 surf. Haha.
10:41pm 14/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40764 posts
wow, would not have expected that.

as terrible a person as tone is, he is fit as f***. well he used to be.

billy boy always looks terribad when he is running.
06:14am 15/08/17 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Other International
39143 posts
I thought the Charlottesville thing was bad but didn't realise it was this bad - HBO VICE reporting from the scene
12:16am 16/08/17 Permalink
trillion
Ballarat, Victoria
4281 posts
hah wow that is some hate fueled s***
09:17am 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7696 posts
*lighten's the mood*

09:52am 16/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2128 posts
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHTp9M2V0AAKdPn.jpg

How dare the left get made at nazis and white supremacists.

More balanced reporting from teh Oz.
10:05am 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21334 posts
Trump back tracks on his 2 day late condemnation of the white supremacists and blames liberals lol

This racist behaviour poked its head out the day after trump won the election, if anyone remembers the multiple reports of islamists and even black people being harassed under the guise that 'this is trumps america now'

Trumps rhetoric through his election campaign attracts these minds of people, everyone f*****g knows it. The deployables.
10:24am 16/08/17 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
4038 posts
So how is Barnaby Joyce not being stood down as Deputy PM when he may not even be a valid member of Parliament? Like I get letting it play out through the supreme court but surely he can't still be the Deputy PM during this whole issue.

And lol at the Libs trying to claim treason over some Labor staffers asking NZ pollies about Joyce's citizenship, they're not the ones harbouring a New Zealand SPY!!!
03:01pm 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7697 posts
This racist behaviour poked its head out the day after trump won the election, if anyone remembers the multiple reports of islamists and even black people being harassed under the guise that 'this is trumps america now'


Harrassing islamists (religious fascists) is not racist, as anyone from any racial background can submit to radical islam.

Bigoted yes, racist no.
05:38pm 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21335 posts
Yeah true, same s***

People were being c**** to these people in the name of trump directly after the result of the election was my point.

And his behavior these last few day is validating that behaviour.
05:43pm 16/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7698 posts
Totally agree, it's like all these ultra right wing groups got a green light after the d******* won office.
05:49pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2691 posts
I'm not so sure that is what is happening pave. I agree, Trump should have unequivocally condemned white nationalism and nazism straight away. I will also agree unequivocally that this was an act of terrorism. However, political violence in the US is not a uniquely, or even especially, right wing phenomenon. Not even at Charlottesville.

I remember reading unvalidated accounts of people being harassed as you suggest. I also remember reading a bunch of them being made up, this for example. I have no doubt some racist attacks happened, but I also have no doubt the reporting on it is wildly inaccurate.

However I can point to countless examples of antifa lawlessness. I can also point to the cars that were set on fire to during the so called woman's march. I can point out people violently rioting in DC on inauguration day.

I can point to this notorious "nazi" being given whiplash. Laughably, for the crime of talking to a "homophobic" marriage equality advocate.

I can also point out, I hear none of the following from anyone on the left of politics. I think you'll find them familiar from another context.

"violence has no ideology"
"we need to crack down on violent extremism"
"bigotry antagonizes people into acts of violence"
"this is just a part of living in a big city"
"we may never know the true motivation of the killer"
"we need to carry on as though nothing happened otherwise the nazi's win"

And I can point to sundry list of d*******s (vash, sir redhat jump to mind) on this forum who got on board with the "its ok to punch nazi's" meme. My response was instantly and unequivocally, that's retarded. Do you want a spiral of escalating violence? Because that's how you get a spiral of escalating violence.

and what about this guy. Though to Sanders credit, he condemned the attack instantly.

So if we want to discuss the normalization of political violence, I think we need to do it rationally and honestly.
07:14pm 16/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21336 posts
Yeah i remember some people got on the bandwagon after some of those attacked occurred and made up their own false story, but as you say i also totally believe it happened.

I don't doubt there has been violence sparked by policitcal s*** since forever.

But this is some seriously f***ed up neo-nazi s*** and trump can't do anymore than blame the opposite side of politics when it happened.

This is beyond politics or normalizing politically motivated violence, why have these groups got the traction now to come out in public and actually hold racist protests, it is completely insane.

What can you expect when a couple of your core policies during the presidential campaign were to ban muslim immigration and build a wall to stop mexicans from illegally crossing the border. Regardless of whatever his intentions were for those policies (terrorism etc.) that sort of thinking is a very slippery slope .... and here we are neo f*****g nazis marching through the streets.
07:45pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40767 posts
u can totes see old mate trump trying to work out what he needs to say to not alienate most of his support base, yet try to appease the rest of sensible america who are obviously outraged.
07:49pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2692 posts
I hear you pave, but neo-nazi's marching through the streets is not a new thing in the states. I'd draw your attention to Nazi's marching through Jewish neighborhoods where survivors lived during the 70's.

If those Jews managed to rise above violence what the f*** is everyone else's excuse? It is not possible to be more righteously indignant about nazism than a holocaust survivor.

Every single one of those events I pointed to happened in the last 12 months. Maybe it is the case trump green lit neo-nazi's, though I doubt they needed much encouragement. It is also unarguably the case that a section of the left have decided trumps election justifies their violence.

Antifa have a strong record of turning up to any political rally they disagree with (which is basically everyone) and pepper spraying and clubbing people with bike locks. In those circumstances, I'm not surprised Nazi's turn up looking for fights.
08:21pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5485 posts
Interesting how PP tries to point out these what aboutsies of leftist violence, when what we're dealing with from the right is actual murder and terrorism.
There is a large difference between political murder & punching a nazi, FYI.
09:29pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2693 posts
I suppose this guy was shooting tickling bullets. Or butterflies.

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.
09:31pm 16/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5486 posts
I suppose this guy was shooting tickling bullets. Or butterflies.

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.


Yeah you love your cherry picks don't you? Let's have a looksie at the long growing list of alt right terrorism.
And Antifa, at least, are about protecting minorities instead of targeting them.
09:51pm 16/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2694 posts
Oh a reddit post. By antifa fan boys.

You know this
Yeah you love your cherry picks don't you
Works best if you don't immediately do the thing you accuse some else of jackass.

Antifa don't protect minorities. Antifa brawl in the streets with people they don't agree with. and it is a sign of how extreme your retardation is that you'd say something like that. Politically motivated violence ends in people being killed full stop, period end of story. There is only two or three thousand years of evidence of this.

It is also unarguably the case that a section of the left have decided trumps election justifies their violence.


I rest my case.
07:01am 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2130 posts

There isn't that bigger difference vash. Violence begets Violence.

Except one side is literally opposing nazis. Not even a hyperbole here.

PS. It is still ok to punch nazis.

https://rocknerd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/100.gif
08:43am 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13707 posts
10:19am 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13708 posts
10:22am 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
821 posts

the long growing list of alt right terrorism.
.


At what end of the spectrum would our local convicted, and future terrorists currently living here vote? The ones who do kill innocents, plan and are stopped from killing innocents, the ones who are here currently planning the killing of innocents, and the ones who want to come here and then plan, and give birth to more generations who will plan to kill innocents?

They vote for the same mobs who want more welfare, more government, more PC, more censorship, more privacy, less security, and less border controls

.. and they want the right wing tax paying voters to pay for it.
12:05pm 17/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21337 posts
At what end of the spectrum would our local convicted, and future terrorists currently living here vote? The ones who do kill innocents, plan and are stopped from killing innocents, the ones who are here currently planning the killing of innocents, and the ones who want to come here and then plan, and give birth to more generations who will plan to kill innocents?

They vote for the same mobs who want more welfare, more government, more PC, more censorship, more privacy, less security, and less border controls


do they?
12:18pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5487 posts
Works best if you don't immediately do the thing you accuse some else of jackass.


Except that post is the exact opposite of cherry picking. It's a compilation of many incidences of alt right terrorism.
03:02pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
822 posts
I prefer:

Less welfare, less government, less PC, less censorship, less privacy (if it means better security), more security, less tolerance, less religion, and more border control.
03:47pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2131 posts
Jim in picture form.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0On4CbXcAAA9F3.jpg

For the record american identity politics is a s*** tip that has been lit on fire, but nazis getting punched is pretty funny.
03:47pm 17/08/17 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
21338 posts
I prefer:

Less welfare, less government, less PC, less censorship, less privacy (if it means better security), more security, less tolerance, less religion, and more border control.


was that meant to answer my question?
03:58pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
154 posts
How have we got to a point where being against fascism is a bad thing?
04:26pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3125 posts
I got a c*** next door hanging his confederate flag, with his 20k harley waking the entire neighbourhood up.

F*** nazis. f*** white supremacists and fascists. f*** pauline hansen. F*** the liberals and their f*****g plebiscite.

I swear to god I usually identify with centrism but this type of s*** makes me want to blast the USSR f*****g anthem just to show how anti-nazi I am
04:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3126 posts
04:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3127 posts
04:46pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13709 posts
I've noticed your intellectually impoverished attempts at discrediting what you perceive to be centrism before sir redhat. It reveals a profound ignorance in your understanding of the political spectrum and is a stark indicator of how far you've actually regressed. Criticising regressively left ideology or other irrationalities doesn't make someone a centrist. In my case for example, I typically come out around here:

https://i.imgur.com/J5LzF9K.png

But for you, it seems anyone not in the very top left red square is either centrist or right-wing and that any means justifies the end - this mentality is a large part of the problem and in sad irony, actually gives you much more in common with that you claim to despise than you'd probably even dare to entertain
05:09pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13710 posts
How have we got to a point where being against fascism is a bad thing?


how have we gotten to the point where you think that's the case? :)
05:10pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3128 posts
Yes and Jim will you be attending the Centrist Rally next weekend?
05:33pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3129 posts
Just got back from the Centrist Rally. Amazing turnout. Thousands of people holding hands and chanting “Better things aren’t possible”
05:38pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10639 posts
05:39pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13711 posts
it's like phooks thought someone asked for a show of hands for who else can provide a good example of complete political irrationality
05:51pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2132 posts
But for you, it seems anyone not in the very top left red square is either centrist or right-wing and that any means justifies the end - this mentality is a large part of the problem and in sad irony, actually gives you much more in common with that you claim to despise than you'd probably even dare to entertain


Guys, I redid that test and when I took it again I answered the question truthfully about if I found it funny when a nazi gets punched.

The results then changed from bottom left to top left. I'm glad you helped me work out my political ideology Jim.

Seriously, where am I advocating for more authoritarianism? Just ask spook, I don't even like wearing a helmet when I am on my bike.
06:04pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5488 posts
Haha phooks, that T&J video is good.

Jim, according to your compass you should be an Antifa fanboy. They're left libertarians.
06:20pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
40771 posts
its true!

ive seen redhat try to inflict huge damage on his brian many times!
06:37pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13712 posts
sir redhat: for example, you appear to advocate for not only the physical silencing of someone who holds an opinion that you think is morally reprehensible, but violence toward them to achieve it. it doesn't matter that you might reject some legislation imposed by the government - you hold the position of your tribe to be the authoritative one by which society should function and believe that it's ok to engage in violence against those who don't agree

vash: no they're not. their actions repeatedly demonstrate that they are against individual freedom when they use violence and intimidation to try and silence ideas they don't like
06:40pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5489 posts
no they're not. their actions repeatedly demonstrate that they are against individual freedom when they use violence and intimidation to try and silence ideas they don't like


As do alt righters who always paddle on about freedom & freedom of speech. Antifa obviously fights fascism, and if you allow Fascism to snowball, you end up with less freedoms.
06:49pm 17/08/17 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
12866 posts
06:55pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13713 posts
hang on, how is paddling on about freedom and freedom of speech, going against individual freedom? isn't advocating for freedom of speech the polar opposite of trying to silence ideas you don't like?

also, fighting one flawed ideology by aggressively wielding another flawed ideology is not the way to maintain freedoms
07:06pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5490 posts
hang on, how is paddling on about freedom and freedom of speech, going against individual freedom? isn't advocating for freedom of speech the polar opposite of trying to silence ideas you don't like?

also, fighting one flawed ideology by aggressively wielding another flawed ideology is not the way to maintain freedoms


The right also use violence & intimidation, while paddling on about freedoms, as i linked above showing the numerous incidents.

One group is fighting for actual freedom for everyone, the other is seeking to target minorities such as Jews, Mexicans, gays, etc
07:17pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18418 posts
less government, less privacy for increased security


Huh? Less privacy = more government. Think about it.

07:25pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
823 posts


was that meant to answer my question?


Yes, I believe they will vote with left bias. Disagree?
07:26pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
824 posts


Huh? Less privacy = more government. Think about it.



You try thinking about it more. Big thinker. The lack of transparency of what people are doing creates government waste.
07:31pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2695 posts
Except one side is literally opposing nazis. Not even a hyperbole here.

PS. It is still ok to punch nazis.


Like I said the last time we went over this. The people who say its ok to walk around punching nazis are objectively terrible at actually spotting nazis. Case in point. Imagine my shock as antifa incorrectly identify someone at the charlottesville rally. Wont retract, wont apologise, called for mob violence for an innocent man (and I might add, if he actually was there (which he wasn't) he was within his constitutionally enshrined rights).

So if we want to talk about how opposing nazis is a good thing, talking down their ideas is a good thing. Fighting them in the street is a bad retarded thing. I mean how f*****g awful at persuasion do you have to be to be unable to talk someone out of nazism.

But to cut to the core of your point. Fighting nazis = good is retarded pre-school level political thought. So on par for you. And a huge part of our current problems. for example

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/CroppedStalin1943.jpg/220px-CroppedStalin1943.jpg

PS you're still retarded.
07:37pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2133 posts
Who's silencing them? There's a difference between free speech and free speech without repercussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

I suppose we should just tolerate everyone and their views. Even if their views are things like "day of the rope" and fascism?

Give them equal airtime and cluck our tongues if one of them ends up with a sore cheek.
07:41pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5491 posts
I mean how f*****g awful at persuasion do you have to be to be unable to talk someone out of nazism.


lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.
07:42pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2696 posts
I suppose we should just tolerate everyone and their views.


Really? You mean as opposed to fight them in the streets? is that a trick question or are you actually that f*****g stupid.

You clearly have no idea how the human mind works.


I don't know how yours works. I'm pretty sure you're an elaborate program created by someone with excessively low expectations of humanity.
07:48pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13714 posts
vash: ok I see what you mean now. But why bring that up though? I wasn't saying anything about the alt-right, I was just responding to your suggestion that antifa are left libertarians. Also I disagree with the notion that antifa are fighting for actual freedom for everyone, again because they often attempt to stifle discussion using the notion of 'hate speech' as justification. That's not fighting for freedom for everyone, that's fighting for everyone except people who say things they don't like.

sir redhat: when a university for example - a supposed bastion of freedom of expression, thought and discussion of ideas - cancels speaking events because they don't want to try and deal with expected or even just implied violence and rioting by people who don't like what the speaker might say, the people who were scheduled to speak have been silenced by the people who previously rioted or engaged in violence, by any people who may not have done so but who now apply pressure under the premise that it will happen again, and by partisan and/or spineless university administrators. Glossing over that as simply a 'repercussion' is disingenuous - the speakers in this scenario had their opportunity to express themselves as planned, removed in the first place.

A valid repercussion to them having been allowed the freedom to speak, would be to publicly offer a counter argument instead of stopping them from being able to say their words in the scheduled forum in the first place.
08:15pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
825 posts


lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.


Works both ways. Try explaining to a 20 year old uni student environmentalist that they have so far spent 20 years sucking up resources, and have provided back little to the community. That if they really want to help save the planet they should stop breeding (get sterilised), stop wearing clothes, stop eating, don't buy anything, just find a cliff and jump off into the mouth of a shark or crocodile to save the environment. But no, they want a house, a car, netflix, ipads, batteries, asphalt roads, electricity, nuclear medicine, overseas holidays, hot water on tap, and take $4 away coffee in recyclable cups. It tales more to save the environment than pointing fingers at big business, subscribing to right-wing-hate-news, avoiding the purchase of razor blades, and not buying soap or having showers.
08:17pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13715 posts
lol? You clearly have no idea how the human mind works. Trying to persuade someone out of Nazism is more likely to have them entrench their position.


And that's their prerogative. Are you going to police their thoughts now?

The key point here is providing a reasoned counter-argument to their position so that observers can then make their own choice about what position they'll now take having heard both arguments. This is how society progresses. This is why I and others use the term 'regressive' to describe extremists who would try and control what everyone thinks and says - they would effectively have us go backwards by their own misguided attempts to prevent 'backward' thinking.
08:20pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2134 posts
Jim, yeah mate with you there on the whole free speech thing. I thought the recent google fiasco was pretty dumb and OTT. I thought it was crazy Milo being shutdown, but literal Nazis don't deserve a podium.

Hate deserves no place in society. I wouldn't wring my hands if a muslim cleric preaching extremism or a westbro baptist gets punched while protesting a funeral either.

Oh yeh, PP, Nice post on some historical figure that is a fascist. If you're going to post a historical picture of people who did violence to fascists maybe post a picture of Orwell?
08:28pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Jim
UK
13716 posts
Yeah it would be great if there were no hate in society, but there is and may always be until we evolve some more - but I think it's foolish to think you can stop it by driving it underground where it can more easily fester and grow unchecked. The podium becomes far less important when you cease trying to force people from listening to the person speaking from it.

I think I've posted this video here before, but it's so good that I don't care:

08:40pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2697 posts
Oh yeh, PP, Nice post on some historical figure that is a fascist. If you're going to post a historical picture of people who did violence to fascists maybe post a picture of Orwell?


I think you mis-spelt socialist. It was a simple point, I'm glad to see it went straight over your head.

Remind me. Is Orwell famous for his 30's sojourn or his persuasive text?

Then think about the point I was making. It's simple. If you put your mind to it you should get there.

Jim, yeah mate with you there on the whole free speech thing

no you're not. Because:
but literal Nazis don't deserve a podium.

and
I wouldn't wring my hands if a muslim cleric preaching extremism or a westbro baptist gets punched while protesting a funeral either.


The only alternative to speech is violence.

Again, not a difficult point. straight over your head.
09:19pm 17/08/17 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
11666 posts
I too thought i was more centrist than this. This is interesting. I think many in the left think they're moderate-left, and don't realise how extreme left they really are.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-5.63&soc=-3.08

last edited by hardware at 21:33:43 17/Aug/17
09:32pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
2135 posts
PP there's a difference between free speech and organising apartheid, violence and hate.

Remember just 5 months ago?

http://i.imgur.com/sBjvRIw.png
09:54pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5492 posts
People have been fighting for their freedom with violence since year dot.
If a fascist leader like Hitler was elected again, do you think people are going to sit down and say, yeah cool, he was democratically elected. And the people who elected him are of course exercising their freedom of speech & their vote. Can't do much about it.

Im sure people tried having a debate with the Nazis before the holocaust.
09:56pm 17/08/17 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
18420 posts

You try thinking about it more. Big thinker. The lack of transparency of what people are doing creates government waste.


Who decides what is transparent, and who decides what is allowed with that transparency, who is going to monitor it, who is going to enforce it, who is going to pay for that... government, more government.

Then people are going to be all 'f*** this, I don't want the government pocking their noses into my private s***, I'll hide it'.

Now more government is needed to make laws to try stop people from hiding s*** that the government wants to see, when the great majority of that s*** is just the normal private affairs of an individual. It just goes on.

Something like that anyway, little thinker.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 22:42:19 17/Aug/17
10:39pm 17/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2698 posts
PP there's a difference between free speech and organising apartheid, violence and hate.

Remember just 5 months ago?


Yeah so peoples ability to call things nazism is about the single most unreliable guide to finding actual nazi's I think we've covered this pretty thoroughly.

and more importantly organizing apartheid *is not* happening in the US. And even if it was. The response in dealing with it is as important as the advocates of it.

If in the process you hand the keys over to a punch of moronic tyrants who say equality but in practice are the most ridged ingroup tribalism I've ever seen prepared to back their moronic views with mob violence, that isn't a win.
06:56am 18/08/17 Permalink
Rukh
Brisbane, Queensland
1105 posts
I find it harder to believe all the claims of Nazis under the bed when I've seen people calling Milo a Nazi.
The gay Jew who has a strong sexual preference for black men is apparently a Nazi or alt-right which apparently also means Nazi.

And now apparently, according to places like Vox, MRA's, PUA's, MGTOW's etc are all Nazis (or at least white supremacists)...

Basically it's "anyone who disagrees with me is a literal Nazi and deserves punching!"

And I'm someone even more left libertarian on that political compass than was just posted...
09:07am 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
826 posts
Ohh yah, this whole use of the term Nazi is just ridiculous.

What we are seeing is the result of poor people (many from 3rd worlds countries) having increased voice through social media. We can attribute the rise, to exponential smart phone ownership. It allows them to get together and blame others for the results of their (and their ancestors) decisions. It's circle jerking. Both sides so it. Everyone does it. Losers love to blame others for their own misfortune, it's the reason they are poor in the first place, they lack the mindset to realise taking personal responsibility for life's outcomes is difficult, yet rewarding.

I think right of centre, but to admire, or adopt nazi leaders and propaganda is for the maladjusted. There are nutters at all points along the political spectrum, and what we see is the sensationalised anomalies getting max air time, because that what gets 'engagement' (like selling papers). There are lots of people out there looking to follow 'something'.. Looking for something they can get passionate about, something where emotion can override logic and provide a feeling of belonging. Easiest way to help bond a team is to have a combined enemy. It works on hate. Hate and anger are the most simple and primitive thoughts. Soccer teams do it, a bunch of school girls do it. Political groups do it, Hillary, and Trump were/are doing it. It's lame, but it works.
09:40am 18/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3130 posts
^ Yeah people in poverty deserve it

foad
10:26am 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
827 posts
So I live in a desert, in poverty, and have 8 children.
11:47am 18/08/17 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
3131 posts
Please enlighten us with your final solution nmag
03:03pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
3295 posts
Saw a bunch of Swastikas at Charlottesville, and they were chanting old Nazi slogans like 'blood & soil', as well as espousing the Nazi style antisemitism. Sure those peeps aren't actual Nazis per say perhaps? But they seem to be emulating them and/or espousing Nazi ideology, so they'd be neo nazis or similar, no?

Surprising to see Vice do a half decent expose, pretty depressing to watch. That Christopher Cantwel dude is a worry! Man at the end there with all those guns, are they sure they don't want gun control!?

Hard to imagine the reaction wouldn't have been more severe if they weren't all white tbh.

On the other hand, aligning Trump with Nazism is probably the most likely line of attack to bring him down. Interested to see if he can also teflon supposedly supporting Nazis!
05:43pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
828 posts
Politely ask the 3rd world to stop breeding so much.
07:44pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Vash
5493 posts
Politely ask the 3rd world to stop breeding so much.


Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

On average, one American consumes as much energy as

- 2 Japanese

- 6 Mexicans

- 13 Chinese

- 31 Indians

- 128 Bangladeshis

- 307 Tanzanians

- 370 Ethiopians
08:40pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
829 posts
omg is America taking all the energy from the Ethiopians too?
09:36pm 18/08/17 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10640 posts
Rukh has appeared! This should get confusing very quickly.
10:00pm 18/08/17 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
2699 posts
On the other hand, aligning Trump with Nazism is probably the most likely line of attack to bring him down. Interested to see if he can also teflon supposedly supporting Nazis!


I think its literally the opposite. He isn't a Nazi, and while he should be out there saying Nazi's are d*******s, it doesn't make him a Nazi for not doing it. Unless you think taylor swift is a Nazi too.

Pushing on the Nazi front I think will politically marginalize the people who do it because the average American is going to see it for what it is instantly. More hysteria, and a pretty loathsome tactic really. The come back is to just say, oh so you'd stand on the bodies of Auschwitz to score a political point would you? And then just make a smooth transition to the topic of Israel.

Hysterically, Antifa at charlottesville gave a reporter a concussion, won't apoligise, called the reporter a racist (while literally saying we don't tolerate white men with iphones), and stated because he was filming them without permission he was perpetuating rape culture. What a time to be alive.

So there is no show without punch it seems. So Barcelona, sir redhat, you were saying how we don't have to tolerate points of view we don't like and its ok to punch people with the wrong opinions. Just get on in there and finish that thought for us.
08:57am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
830 posts
.....
08:58am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
831 posts
Pushing the Nazi angle just introduces complete ridiculousness, and generates more opposition. It takes people who are mildly right, and makes them more likely to vote "against" the left, rather "for" the right. Look how "deplorable" worked out for crooked Hillary. Some people will vote as far right as they can, just to help balance the things they see coming from the far left media.

Saw this on FB today... how funny is this?

http://i.imgur.com/X3ZSXwp.jpg

However the Nazi angle probbaly works on naive idiots. It's very convenient, and in some ways ignorant* I mean look at all those people who worship Jesus on a crucifix. If he was publicly executed in today's times, they would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks. Logic is not something we will find at either extreme end of the scale, however those who dwell there shed objectivity and tend to slide further and further away from rational thought, as they circle jerk their way towards extreme confirmation bias.

*We already live in a right wing world, and it continues to go that way. Just look who runs the country. The extreme Islamic attacks certainly helped propel things further to the right. The more they do it, the more right wing voters. The Apex gang in Melbourne, they also help with the shift to the right.

With racial clashes we can see the results of the media. The way Cronulla actually built up and what happened.. translated into international news with a strong bias that sells papers. Locals know what happened, and why it happened, and what happened after. However the news focused on one part only.. and the legacy didn't highlight what happened before or after.
09:27am 19/08/17 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
7699 posts
Sorry Vash I'm with Nmag on the population bomb.

Go watch Soylent Green and get back to me
11:43am 19/08/17 Permalink
Nmag
Sydney, New South Wales
832 posts
more condom drops
04:54pm 19/08/17 Permalink
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