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Post by trog @ 10:15am 03/06/11 | 92 Comments
A group of ex-Team Bondi developers have sent through a statement indicating that not everyone is fully happy about the game's great success - there's a number of people who worked on the game who apparently have not been included in the final credits:
However, many developers have not been credited for their contribution to its production. The game's credits roll is missing over 100 names, many of whom we personally worked with during our time there. Others have been credited under ‘Special Thanks’, where they would be eligible to be credited under their relevant discipline.

These people devoted their talent, creativity and passion towards the project and, as is common in the games industry, have not been credited because they were not there during the final month or two of production, or for some other subjective criteria. A significant portion of these people did not leave Team Bondi by choice: they were made redundant as the art production wound down, and as Quality Assurance was shifted off-shore to Rockstar's studios.
The aggrieved developers have created a dedicated site - http://www.lanoirecredits.com - which they believe contains the names of everyone involved in the development of the game.

We've contacted Rockstar for a comment a few moments ago and will update this post if we hear back. In the meantime, we encourage anyone interested in supporting the Australian game industry to take a look at that site!





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Latest Comments
Enska
Posted 10:19am 03/6/11
Pretty poor form but not really surprising. Didn't Midda work on it?
E.T.
Posted 10:21am 03/6/11
Thats a f*** tonne of people to make a game. Holy crap.

I wish they had put the location (city) of each person in the credits. It would be great to see how much is based in Oz.
Raven
Posted 10:38am 03/6/11
I don't see the problem. A software engineer in any other industry doesn't get credit for their work on a project. Why are gamedevs special - because they think they're working in the film industry? :)
Trauma
Posted 10:46am 03/6/11
Might sound harsh but I honestly don't care, who actually reads credits? Apart from those who should be in them or their family members.
teq
Posted 10:50am 03/6/11
yeah I could care less, they're going to have a hard time getting the general public behind them too
the only people who might care are those that would potentially hire them in the future based on their previous employment history
3dee
Posted 10:50am 03/6/11
I'm 50/50 with Trauma. No one likes to put in that much effort only to go unrecognised, but on the other hand, about 2% of people read credits and probably only about 2% of those would do anything with that knowledge other than maybe a "oh I knew that guy".

Disclaimer: ^ pretty much a wild assumption
Piat
Posted 10:51am 03/6/11
And I didn't even make this list! Interns, so under appreciated
fade
Posted 10:53am 03/6/11
I'm 50/50 with Trauma. No one likes to put in that much effort only to go unrecognised, but on the other hand, about 2% of people read credits and probably only about 2% of those would do anything with that knowledge other than maybe a "oh I knew that guy".

Disclaimer: ^ pretty much a wild assumption

very wild. it would be like 0.02%
paveway
Posted 10:57am 03/6/11
yeah I could care less


how much less? :p
Trauma
Posted 10:58am 03/6/11
lol pave beat me to it, hate that saying.
Hogfather
Posted 11:06am 03/6/11
The credits aren't for the general public you idiots. Of course you don't give a s*** about the names on the list, gamers can probably name 5-10 developers offhand tops.

I have no doubt that being officially noted as contributing to a 5-star project like Noire is bank for a developer's resume, especially for a bunch of poor c**** that were made redundant!
teq
Posted 11:06am 03/6/11
"could care less" has been used widely enough that people now know the meaning, therefore it is a valid statement
to answer your question, not much less
Enska
Posted 11:14am 03/6/11
I have no doubt that being officially noted as contributing to a 5-star project like Noire is bank for a developer's resume, especially for a bunch of poor c**** that were made redundant!


Yeah they were my thoughts. I'd be pissed if someone did that to me.
taggs
Posted 11:25am 03/6/11
"could care less" has been used widely enough that people now know the meaning, therefore it is a valid statement


people understanding what you mean from the context despite an incorrect usage of a phrase =/= validity, imo.

"could care less" is nonsensical.

I have no doubt that being officially noted as contributing to a 5-star project like Noire is bank for a developer's resume, especially for a bunch of poor c**** that were made redundant!


this.

games development doesn't seem like the most stable of industries so i feel for these poor guys who don't get the credit they deserve. could seriously impact their future job prospects and income.
Fixah
Posted 11:22am 03/6/11
The credits aren't for the general public you idiots. Of course you don't give a s*** about the names on the list, gamers can probably name 5-10 developers offhand tops.

I have no doubt that being officially noted as contributing to a 5-star project like Noire is bank for a developer's resume, especially for a bunch of poor c**** that were made redundant!
This.

Gamers, pfft. Get out of your bubble filled with COD stats and smell the roses!
3dee
Posted 11:28am 03/6/11
this.

Yeah I sorta completely forgot about that. My bad.
Eorl
Posted 11:38am 03/6/11
That's not very nice! I'd love to just be mentioned on a AA title, but a AAA title would be damn near awesome.
typo
Posted 11:48am 03/6/11
In game development, you're only as good as your last gig. So, not being credited for a movie makes it seem that your involvement there wasn't worth being credited. It's basically rockstar giving a big f*** you to those people.
Midda
Posted 11:57am 03/6/11
Pretty poor form but not really surprising. Didn't Midda work on it?

Yeah, but I wasn't left out of the credits. :)
Enska
Posted 11:58am 03/6/11
Haha nice one :P
natslovR
Posted 12:04pm 03/6/11
Control-F Midda says you were :-)
taggs
Posted 12:06pm 03/6/11
meaning > validity


relying on others to interpret the meaning of your words based on context because you lack the ability to use correct language < using correct language ;)
Fixah
Posted 12:15pm 03/6/11
For some reason knowing a qgler has worked on a game makes me want to play it.

What work did you do on it cuz?

Lead senior programmer? motion capture? graphic design? starring voice actor? impress me!
Midda
Posted 12:20pm 03/6/11
Mocap cleanup and animation for the cinematics and interrogations/conversations, mostly. Toward the end they had me doing other stuff as well, like adding effects to scenes, extra characters, etc.
Enska
Posted 12:21pm 03/6/11
Could be wrong but I think he mentioned in another thread something about Animation
Fixah
Posted 12:33pm 03/6/11
Mocap cleanup and animation for the cinematics and interrogations/conversations, mostly. Toward the end they had me doing other stuff as well, like adding effects to scenes, extra characters, etc.
Yeah ok, not really good enough so i might just hire it out now instead.

:p

Nice one.
ravn0s
Posted 12:40pm 03/6/11
i always watch the credits for games and movies in case there's an extra scene during or after.
kr0wb4r
Posted 12:47pm 03/6/11
lol pave beat me to it, hate that saying.


I always heard it growing up as Couldn't care less, and I say couldn't care less all the time. It means exactly what it says, makes sense etc.

When I hear people saying could care less they sound retarded and I want to slap them. I heard it in Game of Thrones this week and wanted to cry.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 12:52pm 03/6/11
i really dont see what the big deal is. i got two new tyres on my car this morning and the guy that changed them didnt get his name writen on them and yet some how i dont think his upset about it. People who work in the video games and film industry really need to stop being so self important but hey thats just my opinion.
Trauma
Posted 01:02pm 03/6/11
"could care less" has been used widely enough that people now know the meaning, therefore it is a valid statement
to answer your question, not much less

This just in... use something enough and it becomes correct. News at 11.

I heard it in Game of Thrones this week and wanted to cry.

Yea that was annoying.
trog
Posted 01:07pm 03/6/11
i really dont see what the big deal is. i got two new tyres on my car this morning and the guy that changed them didnt get his name writen on them and yet some how i dont think his upset about it. People who work in the video games and film industry really need to stop being so self important but hey thats just my opinion.
I assume you are joking, but in case you are not - you can't see the difference between someone working for years on something that they created from scratch, and someone throwing a few tires that were mass produced in a factory in China onto a car, a job which would take all of 5 minutes and includes no unique effort or creation?

It's a simple matter of fairness - if they worked on the game, and some of their colleagues are credited, they should be credited too.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 01:42pm 03/6/11
yes i agree that changing a tyre and game development are two entirely different things. game development requires more creativity than tyre fitting however im sure that you will agree that game developers get paid more for the fact that it is more challenging. is it that you think only people that create new thoughts and ideas should expect to recieve credit? if that is the case what about arhcitects they are extremely creative people that produce a product of thier own design yet they do not expect to have there name written across the front of the building. you get paid to do your job that should be enough of a reward. if all of these devolpers that didnt get mentioned did it for free then didnt get so much as a mention then i could understand them being pissed.
trog
Posted 01:46pm 03/6/11
however im sure that you will agree that game developers get paid more for the fact that it is more challenging
In my experience a lot of the game developers are not paid fortunes for their work
if that is the case what about arhcitects they are extremely creative people that produce a product of thier own design yet they do not expect to have there name written across the front of the building
I thought architects are almost even worse than game developers in that they tend to claim ownership of the designs and all IP retaining to them for ever? Someone was telling me this the other day; if an architect designs a building for you you can't change anything in it at all, or something.

Also many architects do get their name on the building; I'd be pretty surprised if you found a big office building for e.g. that didn't have the name of who made it somewhere on it. I know my last two apartment buildings have had the name of the company that built them on there.
you get paid to do your job that should be enough of a reward
Possibly, but in that case there should be no credits at all.

As someone pointed out, the credits aren't for normal people; they're there for the satisfaction of having your name on something forever and their peers. It's just a slap in the face if you worked on something aside someone and their name gets put on something and yours doesn't.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 01:58pm 03/6/11
i dont think there should be credits on anything unless it was done for free. i can understand a companies name on a building they designed but you wouldnt see the name of each individual employee that helped with that design on the building. this is because at the end of the day it is the company that is ultimately risking thier reputation and thier money by designing the building so they get the credit.
Hogfather
Posted 02:06pm 03/6/11
i dont think there should be credits on anything unless it was done for free.

I think I should be able to ban people on this forum.

Fortunately, neither of us can have our way.
Xion
Posted 02:08pm 03/6/11
Trog has a point.

More than that game development companies would be interested in previous qualifications. If you weren't in the credits you may as well not have put in the 100 hr weeks for 2-3 years for a pittance of what you're worth.
Spook
Posted 02:12pm 03/6/11
ah, so its midda's fault theres no pc version?

gotya.
SquarkyD
Posted 02:17pm 03/6/11
As already said credits aren't usually for the general public, but they are important for the resume of those who worked on the project, giving potential employers a way to validate past experience or even head hunt people.

I have been credited on a few things I've done that have gone to air, been recorded had programs printed etc etc, most of the time it was a requirement because I was being paid a royalty on top of my wage, not sure if the same applies to the games industry?
ShwaMiller86
Posted 02:21pm 03/6/11
To say credits don't matter is to fundamentally misunderstand their purpose. Or not care for their purpose - which is fine, but it's nice when people do. I don't watch game credits, myself.

In the film, TV, game and music industry credits are everything. Before you reach a certain point in your career they are worth many times more than your pay.

It is also just a nice acknolwedgement. For example, if you pick any one minute from a Star Wars prequel, around 1000 people will have done SOMETHING to help create that one minute of footage get to the screen. That is a LOT of hard working people. And in these industries people work about 300% beyond what they're paid to do.

There are generally rules with credits, however. Certainly with film. To be credited you need to have X amount of screen time, or have to have written X amount of the script, for example.

Not sure if its the same with gaming. If you skinned one gun, I doubt you'd be entitled to a credit. If you did them all, you would be, etc.

I put my name on every piece of work I can get it onto, because it increases my profile and in some cases my IMDB rating, etc.

Credits are very important.
Spook
Posted 02:25pm 03/6/11
i see creative assembly in the valley just scored the official commonwealth games license!

seems game creation in brissy isnt dead.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 02:27pm 03/6/11
i dont think game development studio have the time to play to the end of the game to see see if you are lying on your resume or not. and im sure a lot of people on here work long hours on projects they get no credit for thats just life. i just dont see why the games and film industries feel they need to have there names in s*** that no one even watchs to validate the work they did on the project as if the pay wasnt enough.

credits.

post director.
scrotumphantom.
post producer.
scrotumphantom.
lead keyboard operator.
scrotumphantom.
mouse operator.
scrotumphantom.
Fixah
Posted 03:25pm 03/6/11
I dont think there should be credits on anything unless it was done for free
By that logic don't ask for any referees for your previous work when you apply for your next job because you got paid for it. The company you worked for for years somehow don't mean s***.

What a copp out.
skythra
Posted 02:39pm 03/6/11
Scrotum is under the belief that no one should ever be recognised for their work, and that the industry standard of having a resume with a portfolio backed by credits is stupid.

Luckily he isn't the rest of the world. Shame he lives in it though.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 02:53pm 03/6/11
im sorry i wasnt aware that referees and credits were the same thing. i never once stated that people should work for no recognition. i highly doubt it that future potential employers play till the end of these people games to see if there names are there or not. there has to be an easier way like possibly calling there previous employer to find out like every other f*****g industy in the world.
taggs
Posted 02:57pm 03/6/11
i highly doubt it that future potential employers play till the end of these people games to see if there names are there or not.


do you really think this is how a potential employer would verify a credit for games development?

really?
fade
Posted 03:04pm 03/6/11
I think I should be able to ban people on this forum.

Fortunately, neither of us can have our way.

unfortunately hoggy!
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 03:06pm 03/6/11
if thats not how potential employers do it then where is the problem?
kr0wb4r
Posted 03:07pm 03/6/11
This is how I view ScrotumPhantom:



Keep going bud, you'll dig yourself out soon enough!
paveway
Posted 03:08pm 03/6/11
"could care less" has been used widely enough that people now know the meaning, therefore it is a valid statement
to answer your question, not much less


yeah ok copuis
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 03:09pm 03/6/11
and when i do dig myself out i better get my name in white text on a f*****g black screen.
kr0wb4r
Posted 03:14pm 03/6/11
Okay sure, but it'll be under the title; Most retarded poster of the day — 03/06/11
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 03:19pm 03/6/11
well that is quite an achievement around here so i will galdly accept it
Fixah
Posted 03:28pm 03/6/11
oooh he's got a bit of bite to him! easy there Santa Claws. Reeeow.
Eds
Posted 03:30pm 03/6/11
i see creative assembly in the valley just scored the official commonwealth games license!

seems game creation in brissy isnt dead.


One company, wooo, its so alive in Brisbane....oh wait, there used to be a hell of a lot more.

Gaming in brisbane is not dead, its almost there tho
Midda
Posted 03:57pm 03/6/11
Yeah... don't go assuming that everything is rosy at Sega (Creative Assembly is now just Sega Studios Australia).
Door
Posted 04:05pm 03/6/11
No other products list credits. You work for the company - tough bickies - the work you have done belongs to them. I get that it's the norm in media and the reason why it could be frustrating...but it's hardly an outrage worthy.

I haven't been credited a couple of times on television but because I was being paid - I didn't give a s***. If I had screwed up and were no longer in good terms with the company for some reason, I'd have a little fight about the credits because I couldn't get a referee for my next position: that's what it sounds like to me. That or a pride issue coupled with b****ing ex-employees. bleh. Been there done that, sour grapes all round.

In my current job, I'd love to get a mention in the next board report.

Cry more.
dazedandconfused
Posted 04:17pm 03/6/11
I don't see the problem. A software engineer in any other industry doesn't get credit for their work on a project. Why are gamedevs special - because they think they're working in the film industry? :)

What the hell industry is this? The only reason I can think of is that the software component is so minor and simple that crediting someone for doing it is like an insult.
ScrotumPhantom
Posted 04:51pm 03/6/11
welcome to my hole door you might want to grab a shovel.
trog
Posted 04:53pm 03/6/11
welcome to my hole door you might want to grab a shovel.
haha, don't worry, noone takes him seriously anyway.
thermite
Posted 04:56pm 03/6/11
If they didn't have credits at all, it would be fine. But they do have credits, and they go into detail about different deparments. So if a developer who did work on the game, put it on their CV, and someone goes "hey you're not in the credits"... well that's s***.
Door
Posted 05:04pm 03/6/11
haha, don't worry, noone takes him seriously anyway.


Hahah Can I get an achievement for that?
copuis
Posted 05:36pm 03/6/11
i can't see why they would have left people off, sure if the work that person did wasn't in the end product sure there might be a case for that

i understand the main people might be in the opening credits, and others left off, or even the end screen credit rolling (if they have a credit screen else where that outlines role/title of all those that worked on it)

sure it doesn't to go into the same detail as some movies that credit the actors PA's, and the porta loo company

did a reference letter at least go to those that worked on the game, (to help with finding roles on new projects ?)
Raider
Posted 09:59pm 03/6/11
if i'd done characters / environments / props and i wasn't credited i'd be f*****g pissed, because like others said.. an artists folio is their released work which is their portfolio.
Dazhel
Posted 10:23pm 03/6/11
No other products list credits.


All those words you see scrolling up at the end of tv shows and movies, credits!
Those names you see against newspaper, magazine articles and on the covers and in forewords of books, credits!
All of that text on the back of cd albums, credits!

Are you just peeved that as a Sandwich Artist you're not allowed to sign your name on each sub wrapper, Door?
skythra
Posted 10:38pm 03/6/11
Credits are a necessity for those who spend a long time on a single project which must end.

EG: Videogames, movies, books, TV shows (obvs exceptions that still fit in the rule are shows similar to 2 and a half men, they aren't long term and therefore dont' need credit per show) etc.

This allows you to 'prove yourself" in your next role.

Which comes to my next statement:

Those who were sidelined on the credits list probably didn't work full time on these projects for a long time. But LA Noir shouldn't be changing industry standards.
Door
Posted 11:17pm 03/6/11
All those words you see scrolling up at the end of tv shows and movies, credits! Those names you see against newspaper, magazine articles and on the covers and in forewords of books, credits! All of that text on the back of cd albums, credits! Are you just peeved that as a Sandwich Artist you're not allowed to sign your name on each sub wrapper, Door?


You've answered your own question...be that in a sarcastic way. The amount of projects that I have submitted for public consumption which I have not been credited in a personal fashion - but only to the company, have been numerous. It's not a right to be credited, it's a privilege up to the companies discretion.

If someone were to develop a new and limited flavour of icecream in their lab, you would not see their name plastered next to the product in public view. It's just a trend of media to insist their product is one of grandeur.

Whatever you produce is owned by the company. If the company does not credit all parties - tough - that's how s*** works. I don't see how software is different - it's just with a game, the credits can be easily displayed. No one owns shiiiiit. Keep in mind I'm keeping a completely legal stand-point on this currently. No one has any rights to have themselves credited on anything unless it's stipulated in the contract.

last edited by Door at 23:17:04 03/Jun/11
Khel
Posted 11:12pm 03/6/11
In my opinion, its the difference between something creative and artistic, and something that is just a job. Artists have been signing their work forever, be it paintings, sketches, comic book covers or mural on a wall, and I just see it as the same sort of thing. Being a part of making a game or a film is a much more creative endeavour than being a mechanic for example. I'm not for a second implying it is a better job, or a more worthwhile job, but its creative and theres more of a tradition in creative fields for artists and people who contributed to sign or get credit for their work.

I would be pretty pissed if I worked on a game and didn't get credited, its a pretty important thing, especially if you're just starting out. A lot of game jobs even have requirements like "Must have worked on at least two published titles", so if you aren't credited, you can't prove that you worked on it.
Door
Posted 11:30pm 03/6/11
In my opinion, its the difference between something creative and artistic, and something that is just a job. Artists have been signing their work forever, be it paintings, sketches, comic book covers or mural on a wall, and I just see it as the same sort of thing. Being a part of making a game or a film is a much more creative endeavour than being a mechanic for example. I'm not for a second implying it is a better job, or a more worthwhile job, but its creative and theres more of a tradition in creative fields for artists and people who contributed to sign or get credit for their work. I would be pretty pissed if I worked on a game and didn't get credited, its a pretty important thing, especially if you're just starting out. A lot of game jobs even have requirements like "Must have worked on at least two published titles", so if you aren't credited, you can't prove that you worked on it.


But you can be credited with a reference. I consider my profession an art. You could say that coding isn't an art. A product does not make art. Creating an icecream flavour is art. Creating anything is an art. You cannot confine art to the visual or auditory, if that's you're point. Saying that typing a code which stipulates how high you can jump in a game differs to defining the capabilities and future of company growth is nonsense. Everything is an artform if you can justify it. If you're going to allow a physics programer to hold the title of 'artist' you may as well allow every other creator as well. This is just tedious media argument created by haters who feel they have been unjustifiably chastised i.e. sour grapes.

Your analogy doesn't work if a company commissions you to create a work of art. This has been done by so many artists before it's not funny. They get others to create their visions and take full credit. Even Andy Warhol did it and you don't see "constructed by" near any of his work.

Load of sour grapes.

last edited by Door at 23:30:41 03/Jun/11
Khel
Posted 11:49pm 03/6/11
I'm not saying games are art, thats a whole new retarded argument, I'm saying that making a game is a creative endeavour, bolting steel together on a construction site is a job. The guy who designs the building though, he gets credit. Same as the guy who mechanically assembles a car isn't gonna get credit, but the guy who styles it and designs it does. Its just the way it is, you can b**** all you want about how stupid it is, but I doubt its going to change any time soon. And when getting credited for your work is an intrinsic part of the industry you're in, and then you don't get a credit, its not hard to see why people feel like they've been slapped in the face. Especially since its such a huge game.
Door
Posted 12:02am 04/6/11
I'm not saying games are art, thats a whole new retarded argument, I'm saying that making a game is a creative endeavour, bolting steel together on a construction site is a job. The guy who designs the building though, he gets credit. Same as the guy who mechanically assembles a car isn't gonna get credit, but the guy who styles it and designs it does. Its just the way it is, you can b**** all you want about how stupid it is, but I doubt its going to change any time soon. And when getting credited for your work is an intrinsic part of the industry you're in, and then you don't get a credit, its not hard to see why people feel like they've been slapped in the face. Especially since its such a huge game.


If there was someone who had claimed the entirety of the artistic design of a character, I could almost see your point - however if they were - they would be commissioned by a creative artist who had control over their output...but....that person has been credited. Full stop. Welcome to the real world, b******.

last edited by Door at 00:02:10 04/Jun/11
Raven
Posted 09:07am 05/7/11
I assume you are joking, but in case you are not - you can't see the difference between someone working for years on something that they created from scratch, and someone throwing a few tires that were mass produced in a factory in China onto a car, a job which would take all of 5 minutes and includes no unique effort or creation?

Sorry to gravedig, but just noticed this reply trog - I've worked on products in my time that are now important business tools used by Carsales, Adstream and the Australian Government - you won't see my name in any credits for those products. In fact, generally only the top people at the companies get any credit whatsoever - eg, you might see Greg Roebuck and Adrian Kinderis reaping all the glory, but in reality they had f*** all to do with the product (other than maybe setting unrealistic deadlines and agreeing to commercial deliverables without consulting the teams). Why should games be any different?

No other products list credits. You work for the company - tough bickies - the work you have done belongs to them. I get that it's the norm in media and the reason why it could be frustrating...but it's hardly an outrage worthy.

^^ This
WetWired
Posted 09:16am 05/7/11
There is an established precedent in every other game that it has credits, find me a game that doesn't have any. This is how developers get recognition for their work. Just because "other products" don't have them doesn't mean s*** when every other game in existence does. We're not talking about a box of corn flakes here, we're talking about a piece of entertainment, f*** even CDs have credits in the sleeve.
Raven
Posted 09:20am 05/7/11
That doesn't mean there isn't room for a paradigm shift.
WetWired
Posted 09:41am 05/7/11
well by the uproar caused by not crediting people, I'd say there isn't
Khel
Posted 11:32am 05/7/11
That doesn't mean there isn't room for a paradigm shift.


Why does there need to be a paradigm shift? Because people who work in other industries are grumpy that they don't get credited for their work? Its an accepted part of the industry, its a perk of the job. Other jobs have different perks, like my brother can get incredibly cheap or even free gear from Samsung through his job, and if you worked at Subway you could get free subs, if you work at a retail store you get a staff discount. If you work on a game, you get your name in the credits.
Midda
Posted 11:47am 05/7/11
That doesn't mean there isn't room for a paradigm shift.

I was going to post pretty much what Khel said. Why should developers stop being credited? You're not giving any reason other than "I don't get credited in my line of unrelated work!"
Raven
Posted 11:49am 05/7/11
Does their employment contract or award state that they'll be credited? If not, argument stops there really and they're not entitled to it. It might be given, but there's no explicit entitlement if it's not on paper somewhere.
trillion
Posted 12:55pm 05/7/11
the IGDA is like the new Stockholm Syndrome collective voice.
Obes
Posted 12:59pm 05/7/11
I was going to post pretty much what Khel said. Why should developers stop being credited? You're not giving any reason other than "I don't get credited in my line of unrelated work!"

Ok, Why should they be credited ?

It's only a social "norm" much like wearing pants. And I for one hope for a pants optional future.
Hogfather
Posted 12:59pm 05/7/11
That doesn't mean there isn't room for a paradigm shift.

Indeed - just not in the direction you assume.
Raven
Posted 01:02pm 05/7/11
Oh, and look, I'm not saying the paradigm shift might not be that *other* industries go back to crediting all developers involved in the product. It just seems a bit whiny to go "whaaaaaa, we're being put on par with 97% of the software industry".
Khel
Posted 01:28pm 05/7/11
This thread is starting to remind me of the people who argue that god exists because "Well, you can't prove that he doesn't exist!"

No, sorry, the burden of proof is on the god believer in that scenario, just like it is here on the people who don't think game developers should be credited. Thats how the industry works, it is accepted, and has been accepted for many many years. If you want to change that, or you think it needs to work differently, merely saying "Well, why should they get credited anyway?" is not a valid argument.
Obes
Posted 01:31pm 05/7/11
Yes it is... You are making the claim .. They should be credited. Prove it or go join the "god people".

Otherwise the people who own the game (ie. the company) can do as they please. It's bat and ball and they can do what they want.
Khel
Posted 01:39pm 05/7/11
I don't need to prove it, theres 20+ years of precedence that shows why they should be credited.
Scooter
Posted 01:41pm 05/7/11
My name goes on every plan and document I produce. Thats more so people can sue me easier later though...
I guess that is kind of like credits...

My name is also burried away in the Meta-Data of all the Mapfiles/Plot Paramater Files/Leica Export files etc. But again, thats more so people can find me when something goes wrong so that I can fix it...

Still, if having your name on something is a perk of the job, get it in writing in your work contract. Otherwise it's up to the company to decide what they feel is in the best interest for them. Showing appreciation to their workers (by putting their name in a section of a game no-one ever reads) might end up being in their best interest.

I don't need to prove it, theres 20+ years of precedence that shows why they should be credited.


You have the whole God/Burden of proof thing backwards. There was centuries worth of God being a Omnipitent precedence too.
Obes
Posted 01:46pm 05/7/11
Don't disagree with khel scooter or typo will bring furious wrath upon you!
BillyHardball
Posted 01:56pm 05/7/11
Khel - you do have the burden of proof backwards, but it looks like you have offered your proof - it's the norm in the gaming industry? I think industry standard is a fair enough argument. However, I also get the other side of the argument that it's not entirely necessary.
BillyHardball
Posted 02:02pm 05/7/11
Also, thread reminds me a bit of this Entourage scence (skip to 2:15 for hilarity):
Khel
Posted 02:00pm 05/7/11
Essentially from what I can tell, the argument against it just boils down to "Its not fair, I don't work in a job where I get credited for my work, so why should anyone else". If theres a genuine reason why the game industry should stop doing things the way its been doing them for the last few decades, if theres some improvement that removing game credits could make to the industry as a whole and a good reason for being against credits, then by all means, do share.

I mean, in practise, this doesn't even really effect me, the only games I've got my name in the credits for are games I'd probably rather not be credited for. But I don't understand where all the anti-game credits sentiment comes from or what the reasoning behind the argument to get rid of them even is.
Scooter
Posted 02:08pm 05/7/11
I'm not against it, I don't even read them so it doesn't bother me who is in them. None at all might make some gamers happier which might be a bussiness choice for some companies.

I just don't like the ' We've done it for 50 years! ' argument :)
Obes
Posted 02:21pm 05/7/11
Nah khel that's not the argument at all.
(at least from me)

The people that are paying the money to make the game can do whatever they like so long as they aren't breaking any contracts or laws (eg. demanding they allow them to sodomise you twice daily). If he dev's don't like it they can leave, either they won't be able to hire anyone and they go bust or they'll find more devs and off they go. That's my argument.

The crap about creative processes and social norms and "tradition" in an industry that has existed 25 years and thus some inalienable right for games industry people ... blah blah blah lol whatever that's your argument. (The rest of the software industry doesn't do it so it's a flimsy argument at best eg. MS Office I think it's an easter egg but only in the mac version ?)

IMO since it seemingly concerns you greatly, instead of sticking your head in your shell and shouting at the world, next time you work for a games company you can ensure that having your name in the credits is part of the deal (if it is that important to you).
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