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Post by eXemplar @ 05:20pm 16/11/09 | 156 Comments
I know this has been discussed before but I just saw this over on reddit about a six page reply received from Michael Atkinson (South Australian Attorney-General) and it's quite an interesting, if lengthy, read.

The poster makes note, "Be sure to check out the last paragraph, just make sure you don't have anything throwable in your hands." To quote,
I am next up for election in March, 2010. The State District I represent is called Croydon. I would welcome advocates of R.18+ computer games testing public acceptance of my policy by standing a candidate against me in that general election. I think you will find this issue has little traction with my constituents who are more concerned with real-life issues than home entertainment in imaginary worlds.
As funny as that closing statement is, it's also a bit sad to see that a law maker cares so little about a subject that he is solely responsible for. promoted forum item












Latest Comments
trog
Posted 05:25pm 16/11/09
Is he saying that, if I want to do my part as a voting citizen and try to get the law changed, I have to move to Croydon? That sounds like a bit excessive.

(Queue Ford Prefect: "This is Zaphod Beeblebrox from Betelgeuse Five you know, not bloody Martin Smith from Croydon")
partyhat
Posted 05:32pm 16/11/09
Wow.

If that is for real I can't believe how ignorant he truly is.
thermite
Posted 05:32pm 16/11/09
I think he'll find our rights are a real-world issue.
Alex1019
Posted 05:33pm 16/11/09
What a f*****g douche!
tequila
Posted 05:33pm 16/11/09
F*** it annoys me that he trys to make light of entertainment like it doesn't exist, or like it doesn't amount to censorship

I equate banning video games to burning books, I can't see whats in that video game because the government thinks its too naughty or doesn't align with their policy

Is that too far to reach?

F*** this, I'm going to burn my bra.
Jim
Posted 05:37pm 16/11/09
I read his entire letter as saying "I'm a prude douchebag who chooses to emotionally cling to my beliefs despite the abundance of evidence that says I'm unfounded in doing so, and that I'm pretty confident that the number of prudes in my district outnumbers those driven by rational thought - and thanks to the idiotic way our government is setup with respect my role in the SCAG, I can constantly force my irrational viewpoint on the entire population"
Alt_F4
Posted 05:37pm 16/11/09
That statement typifies the huge social/cultural disconnect between elderly members of society and everyone else.
Obes
Posted 05:41pm 16/11/09
Then he obviously needs to be removed from the position, because he obviously is only interested in representing his electorate in that role. I very much doubt that solely serving the whims of his electorate is the brief for any Attorney-General.

The Queensland minister for Main Roads is the member for Thuringowa, if he applied the same principles we wouldn't bother with anything except roads in or out of Thuringowa
Kalash
Posted 05:42pm 16/11/09
I think that Atkinson is a Dildo :)
Hogfather
Posted 05:42pm 16/11/09
WTB democracy.
koopz
Posted 05:51pm 16/11/09
I read his entire letter as saying "I'm a prude douchebag who chooses to emotionally cling to my beliefs despite the abundance of evidence that says I'm unfounded in doing so, and that I'm pretty confident that the number of prudes in my district outnumbers those driven by rational thought - and thanks to the idiotic way our government is setup with respect my role in the SCAG, I can constantly force my irrational viewpoint on the entire population"


I read it as 'I have a secure financial future - just you try and stop me'

DM
Posted 06:03pm 16/11/09
If someone was to kill and eat him, would they gain some of his power?
Tollaz0r!
Posted 06:14pm 16/11/09
Only if they eat his heart while it is still pulsing.

I'm guessing the only way we will see an R18+ rating or any changes to the classification board in the regard is to have someone in a decent position in politics, or make someone who is care about it.

Until then Mr Atkinson has a point; Don't bother trying to get my attention on this article as I have more pressing matters that require my attention because the people that vote for me don't give a s*** about R18. I'm only in the position I'm in because it pays better then if I wasn't. I don't care about the actual requirements of the job.

K, Thx, Bi.
Ivonin
Posted 06:16pm 16/11/09
Only if it was over 9000
eXemplar
Posted 06:16pm 16/11/09
Sounds like someone is two steps ahead of you trog, http://www.gamers4croydon.org/
Mantorok
Posted 06:21pm 16/11/09
Can't we just finish what the British started and nuke South Australia?
P!NG_K!NG
Posted 06:25pm 16/11/09
Get with the times old man.

Australia's OFLC is second only to Germany as the laughing stock of interactive media classification.
greazy
Posted 06:26pm 16/11/09
I equate banning video games to burning books,

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Are you trolling or are serious about this ridiculous statement?
simul
Posted 06:29pm 16/11/09
It would be funny if someone got the mailing addresses and/or phone numbers for every member of Croyden and then published it online for anyone in the world against this to cold-call his constituents. Not saying I would do such a thing, just saying it would be a nice way to let the people of Croyden understand the situation, and at least talk to someone who does have a say in the matter.

Anyway, my main issue with this is simple, the OFLC has no power with the rules the way they are, any Activision/EA game is going to walk all over them (tho they do the farce with censoring some games), so you end up getting violent games in the hands of 15 year olds instead of 17-18 year olds. I think the OFLC has a bloddy important job to do, but the laws are making it harder for them, not better.

We have the digital censorship of Germany and the digital freedom of speech of China, and stupidly outdated digital IP/Copyright/Fair Use laws.
thermite
Posted 06:37pm 16/11/09
hahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Are you trolling or are serious about this ridiculous statement?


He is making an intelligent statement. You wouldn't understand.

Burning books and banning video games is exactly the same thing. It is hiding culture/art/literature from the population. It is equivelant to outlawing emotion and then training Christian Bale to dodge bullets and use swords.
cyph
Posted 06:55pm 16/11/09
It is equivelant to outlawing emotion and then training Christian Bale to dodge bullets and use swords.


hahahahahhahahaha

well done sir, well done.
Jim
Posted 07:05pm 16/11/09
haha
greazy
Posted 07:06pm 16/11/09
haha thermite.
Binstar
Posted 07:08pm 16/11/09
Time for some door to door and letter drops?
Hashy
Posted 07:11pm 16/11/09
A slightly censored version Valve's L4D2 is equivocal to the destruction of books (knowledge, culture, art). --QGL wisdom.

edit: Trying to oust a politician in a state you don't even live in over f*****g videogames? Hell yes. Gamers unite.

last edited by Hashy at 19:11:34 16/Nov/09
HurricaneJim
Posted 07:09pm 16/11/09
Only needs an enterprising young man to accuse him of pedophilia and it all comes down around his head.
BSS
Posted 07:26pm 16/11/09
One thing to note about the response. He explains how once R18+ games somehow make it into the home it is then impossible to stop kids from playing them. Of course this is not true (besides good parenting!). Both the PS3 and 360 have parental controls in them and it is rather trivial to restrict the console to play games with a maximum of M rating or PG or whatever you like...
http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/familycentre/xbox360/console/familysettings-gameratings.htm
http://faq.anz.playstation.com/cgi-bin/scee_anz.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?locale=en_AU&p_faqid=4396

I feel like these features need more publicity in these sorts of discussions as it appears to be often forgotten.
Triamks
Posted 07:40pm 16/11/09
I've read Atkinson's letter and without declaring a position on the issue, I cannot see how this letter is all that rage inducing. Sure, it declares opposition to the introduction of a R18+ classification, but besides that, it merely restates his position in response to what was written to him. It all seems very much like attacking the player instead of the ball, just because they're the player. From what he personally wrote on the letter as the postscript, the SA Liberal Party supports his position so a change of government would not change SA's opposition to the classification, and elsewhere in the letter he wrote he was being used as "the lighting bolt" for other AGs.

It would be funny if someone got the mailing addresses and/or phone numbers for every member of Croyden and then published it online for anyone in the world against this to cold-call his constituents.


You obviously don't get out much, but that's really not all that hard to do and is not some big secret. Contact the Electoral Commission SA as stated here for a copy of the electoral role. Then Whitepages is your friend. Some QGL members even have a copy of the Whitepages database on their computers. So while time consuming, someone with the will would be able to do what you wish.
simul
Posted 07:59pm 16/11/09
You obviously don't get out much, but that's really not all that hard to do and is not some big secret. Contact the Electoral Commission SA as stated here for a copy of the electoral role. Then Whitepages is your friend. Some QGL members even have a copy of the Whitepages database on their computers. So while time consuming, someone with the will would be able to do what you wish.


No, you misunderstand me completely (although perhaps I wasn't clear / used to talking to a higher level audience). I meant rather when articles like this come up, contact the people who actually have a say in the matter: have the article pull a random phone number of a constituent out of the database on each page load "Ring Jenny Bloggs on (xx)xxxx-xxxx.".
Hashy
Posted 08:00pm 16/11/09
Self-declared "gamers" are all horrible man-children with unrealistic world views and few convictions other than playing average videogames in their uncensored form. That much is clear.
trog
Posted 08:01pm 16/11/09
Self-declared "gamers" are all horrible man-children with unrealistic world views and few convictions other than playing average videogames in their uncensored form. That much is clear.
here is the point:





you are here: x
Sommescum
Posted 08:01pm 16/11/09
Sorry Triamks, I disagree - He IS a douche
Jim
Posted 08:05pm 16/11/09
A slightly censored version Valve's L4D2 is equivocal to the destruction of books (knowledge, culture, art). --QGL wisdom.
implying that this issue has suddenly arisen only now, since l4d2 was rejected classisifcation and watered down, and could only be an issue because of this single instance of censorship -- hashy wisdom

edit: Trying to oust a politician in a state you don't even live in over f*****g videogames? Hell yes. Gamers unite.
preventing adults across the entire country from playing anything that fails to be classified MA15+ or lower because you choose to base your principles on religious values and selective 'studies' produced by largely like-minded groups? hell yes. prudes unite
Triamks
Posted 08:06pm 16/11/09
Sorry Triamks, I disagree - He IS a douche


Seems like you're agreeing completely with what I said.
Hashy
Posted 08:07pm 16/11/09
The reality is that until something of actual f*****g merit is prohibited from sale in this country nobody other than a select few impotently vocal nerds are going to care. No videogame to date has enough merit to warrant anything more than a passing glance in any official capacity.

bu-bu-but my videogames.
Triamks
Posted 08:09pm 16/11/09
No, you misunderstand me completely


It seems that I did understand what you originally wrote and now you've altered what you've said to clarify. That's fine. I've still given you a pointer to how you can achieve what you want. So it's a moot argument really.
Jim
Posted 08:13pm 16/11/09
The reality is that until something of actual f*****g merit is prohibited from sale in this country nobody other than a select few impotently vocal nerds are going to care. No videogame to date has enough merit to warrant anything more than a passing glance in any official capacity.
actually, that's not necessarilly a reality at all. what is a stark reality though, is the futility of suggesting that discussion about a topic that people are interested in, cease simply because you have a strong need to satisfy some personal psychological imbalance
Hashy
Posted 08:16pm 16/11/09
ActuallY jim iif australia continues down this path they'll soon be able to ban any kind of discussion or indeed thought unseat mikkkal atkin$on. gamers 4 croyden
FraktuRe
Posted 08:21pm 16/11/09
Can we just ban hashy already? I mean seriously, why the f*** not.
taggs
Posted 08:23pm 16/11/09
haha how many bans has hashy had so far? double digits yet?

his posts are entertaining though
Hashy
Posted 08:23pm 16/11/09
In an ironic twist a dissenting voice was quelled in a heated discussion about civil liberties
Jim
Posted 08:35pm 16/11/09
if you call being shut down by logic and reasoning, quelled
it's nearly suprising you didn't put single quotes around civil liberties though

nearly
ravn0s
Posted 08:39pm 16/11/09
Can we just ban hashy already? I mean seriously, why the f*** not.


because banning hashy is equivalent to burning books.
Hashy
Posted 09:05pm 16/11/09
the right to play marc ecko's getting up is right up there with freedom of speech
Hashy
Posted 09:10pm 16/11/09
Excuse me while I affect the political concerns of South Australia so I can play Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Jim
Posted 09:13pm 16/11/09
40 degrees celcius is getting right up there with boiling point
Noonga
Posted 09:16pm 16/11/09
shoot him in the head and remove his bowels.
Jim
Posted 09:19pm 16/11/09
excuse me while I affect the entertainment concerns of adults throughout the entire country so I can remain baffled and worried about why they'd like to be treated like adults. did you know that wii games are challenging and develop skill? physically and intellectually no less
tequila
Posted 09:20pm 16/11/09
I'm deadly serious about the burning books thing just fyi

They've decided that I am not allowed to see what is really going on inside someone else's creation
for whatever reasoning has through someones head, they've made it so that I - An Adult - can not be trusted with the contents of something that is not expressly illegal

It might not be art or culture, it might only be a s***** video game that no one will care about in 6 months - but it's beside the point; I can't see it because someone else thinks I can't be trusted with it and or it might cause harm
greazy
Posted 11:01pm 16/11/09
No, it's not besides the point. You are comparing books, a key element in the advancement of mankind, to computer games, programs created to stave off boredom. When the library of Alexandria burnt down a huge collection of books, scrolls and other records were lost for ever. Imagine if the same happened to steam servers and the games were lost for ever.

You're not an adult, you're a huge man child who can't make a proper analogy about why his precious computer game should not be censored.

P.S 20 bux says you're going to make a hand basin/women bashing insult because you're too dim witted to argue back.

last edited by greazy at 23:01:03 16/Nov/09
Triamks
Posted 11:01pm 16/11/09
can not be trusted with the contents of something that is not expressly illegal


Yet the contents of these games are expressly illegal, rape, murder etc. Why would anybody want to play a game which contains an element of rape? Should that game not be refused classification even if we had a R18+ classification? How much censorship would you permit? Are you also challenging Australia's newsgroups being filtered of content that is prohibited in Australia? That is censorship.
FraktuRe
Posted 11:06pm 16/11/09
So why aren't books and movies that contain drugs/murder/rape be banned? You can't ban one form without banning all forms, otherwise the entire system is ridiculous.
Hashy
Posted 11:22pm 16/11/09
because there's a very strong argument that interactive and non-interactive media have very different effects on the minds of the young and otherwise impressionable.
Jim
Posted 11:43pm 16/11/09
and you think that instead of actually tackling that issue like a responsible leader/power, it's best to just refuse anything that doesn't meet MA15+ and pretend that the young and impressionable are now protected?

DarthGuybrush
Posted 11:46pm 16/11/09
The said sticking point is to enable an R18+ rating for video games AG's from every state and territory must concure. Michael Atkinson is the sticking point and must be voted from office. Still no guarantee that his successor would have a different mindset. At nearly 41 years of age I have long deplored this sad situation.
greazy
Posted 11:47pm 16/11/09
Yes.

(of course not. I doubt anyone is)
Khel
Posted 12:06am 17/11/09
People make very strong arguments that the moon landing was fake, that the world is going to end in 2012, that the earth is only a few thousand years old and evolution is a lie, but unfortunately without proof these arguments are just as preposterous as the one that interactive entertainment is somehow more dangerous to a person's mental health than watching a violent movie.

I just watched an episode of Son's of Anarchy where a woman gets gang raped by some white supremisists, maybe we should ban TV too? I would imagine it to be much easier for children to catch an episode of something like that on tv, than to get their hands on an R18+ game (were R18+ games to exist).

Boiling the argument down to specifics and stating particular games and then coming up with a "is playing that game really worth it?" type argument is just missing the point. Thats like saying, why did black people in america fight for the right to vote, when all they ended up with was George Bush.

If people sit back and let this slide now, what happens down the track when someone in power decides that the lack of R18+ for games is working so well, they'll remove it for movies too and ban any movies which don't fit into M15+. May as well start banning books too and censoring what can be shown on tv while we're at it, have to think of the children after all. And internet filtering, well, we have to have that, to protect the children you know.
infi
Posted 12:13am 17/11/09
computer games form part of the evolution of art and technology. whether you approve of that evolution or not in your value base is irrelevant (unless its content is universally or fundamentally offensive).

greazy, making a value-judgment of the worth of a video game is invalid. the game exists and therefore should be uncensored unless it is totally offensive.

simply because you find an endeavour worthless does not justify your argument.

last edited by infi at 00:13:57 17/Nov/09
Syco
Posted 12:16am 17/11/09
Is it any wonder this f***** is from Adelaide?
Hogfather
Posted 12:29am 17/11/09
Hashy: Would it be appropriate to ban works of fiction fiction that contained explicitly sexual or illegal material?

Here is a work by Rubens, the 1636 Saturn Devouring his Son (I think its Zeus getting the munch):



Its clearly some f***ed up s***, by any standard. Should this image be banned?

Edit: Rubens was a pretty sick man! Have a look at The Rape of the daughters of Leucippus

I put this in a link as I'm not sure if classical art nipples break the rules...

last edited by Hogfather at 00:29:31 17/Nov/09
Pinky
Posted 12:44am 17/11/09
Comment on my rebuttal article:


Introduction
Australia is the only developed country without an R18+ category for interactive media (computer games).

The Attorney-General of each state is the Minister for Censorship. Their combined rules dictate how the Office of Film and Literature Classifaction (OFLC) Classifications Board can classify such media as literature, film and computer games.

A discussion paper has been tabled for release on the issue and was supposed to appear in April, with Attorney-General (ACT) Simon Corbell expecting it 'to be released soon'.

To introduce a new classification category (R18+) all Censorship Ministers must vote in favour unanimously.

The biggest opponent to an R18+ category is the SA Attorney-General, Michael Atkinson. In his recent communications ( http://drop.io/atkinson2010 ) Atkinson considers that other A-G's 'are content to let [him] be the lightening rod' - in other words, he is not the only A-G against an R18+ category.

Atkinkson raises two important points in his letter:
- he is aware the majority of games consumers are adults
- in 2008 the games industry turned over $2bil AUD (and is growing quickly)

However, so much of Atkinson's response is misguided there must be a rebuttal.

Issue 1 - Control of sale of R18+ restricted category media
Atkinson "cannot fathom that State-enforced safeguards could exist to prevent R18+ being bought by households with children..."

Like cigarettes, alcohol and MA15+ games (a restricted games category that already exists!) Mr Atkinson? Your point is grossly invalid.

Issue 2 - Content of proposed R18+ category games
Atkinson "is baffled why proponents of R18+ games are putting up their hands saying 'Give us more cruel sex and extreme violence!'"

I've never seen that as a mainstream argument of 'proponents of R18+ games' - and of course, just like with film classification now, there is certainly a place for a Refused Classification (RC) category. Noone is suggesting there shouldn't be. It's unfortunate that some of the examples that Atkinson refers to, like 'Rapeplay', would find the same fate that feature films that similar depraved sex acts currently do - a big, shiny RC in the OFLC database!

As for even mentioning 'Leisure Suit Larry:Magna Cum Laude' - a game featuring 'implied sexual activity', nudity and sexual references. I can't even begin to imagine the kind of world that Atkinson believes his constituency reside in if he holds reals concerns for such themes.

Issue 3 - Restriction of access
Atkinson states that Children are the "most computer-savvy group" in our society and that "if adults think they can devise a lock-out system to defeat children, tell 'em their dreaming."

Well, last time I checked, Children weren't running our Internet Service Providers, so I can't agree that they are the "most computer-savvy group" for starters.

As for lock-out systems on consoles (and even DVD players) - these have been around for a long time, and have been shown to work perfectly.

- XBOX: http://www.xbox.com/en-AU/support/familycentre/xbox360/console/familysettings-gameratings.htm
- PS3: http://faq.anz.playstation.com/cgi-bin/scee_anz.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?locale=en_AU&p_faqid=4396

If Mr. Atkinson is so worried about such filtering processes being inadequate then perhaps he should be more concerned with the Government's strategy for internet content filtering:

- http://www.netalert.gov.au/filters.html

If all else fails then surely some responsible parenting can fill the gaps. Although Mr. Atkinson doesn't seem overly confident in parents these days.

Conclusion
Finally, Atkinson's final paragraph may be his downfall. In challenging someone to stand against him for election in March, 2010, Atkinson states "I think you will find this issue has little traction with my constituents who are more concerned with real-life issues than home entertainment in imaginary worlds."

If this issue had such 'little traction' he wouldn't be receiving the mass of emails and letters that drives him to write such response letters in the first place. This statement is arrogant, disdainful and unfit for a Censorship Minister to make. Yes, Mr Atkinson, you have a lot of responsibilities as an Attorney-General - but it's your tax-payer funded job to care about this issue.

It's very simple. This is about freedom of choice. It's about the same choice that adults are able to make with films and literature. We can only hope that in March 2010 a candidate that actually represents the views of that constituency will be available for election.
greazy
Posted 12:44am 17/11/09
the game exists and therefore should be uncensored unless it is totally offensive.

simply because you find an endeavour worthless does not justify your argument.
Stop putting words in my mouth you god damn retards. It happens in nearly every thread. I have not made a single point in this thread against nor for the censorship of this game or any other game. teq's analogy was horrible, that's it. Nothing more or else.

P.S Computer games aren't art. They're computer games.
Pinky
Posted 12:47am 17/11/09
P.S Computer games aren't art. They're computer games.

Can't agree with this at all.
greazy
Posted 12:58am 17/11/09
I'd like you to prove me wrong.
fpot
Posted 01:06am 17/11/09
First you'll need to define art.
Hashy
Posted 01:28am 17/11/09
Why am I suddenly a proponent for the lack of an R18 rating and strict classification as a whole? I never implied anything of the sort.

The difference between interactive and non-interactive media is a given. Every classification board in the world treats them differently, as far as I know, and so they should they until something definitively proves it unnecessary.

Equating an artistically significant classical painting with the sort of inane s*** that that has been refused classification so far though? Heh.

Edit: Any game so far that has modified itself in order to slip into a classification, by the very f*****g definition, has excluded itself from being defined as "art".

last edited by Hashy at 01:28:40 17/Nov/09
Mantra
Posted 01:29am 17/11/09
No, it's not besides the point. You are comparing books, a key element in the advancement of mankind, to computer games, programs created to stave off boredom. When the library of Alexandria burnt down a huge collection of books, scrolls and other records were lost for ever. Imagine if the same happened to steam servers and the games were lost for ever.
Of course not, nice try though.

How are games not a "key element in the advancement of mankind"? It's just another way of telling a story. Are you suggesting that the creativity and effort that goes into making video games is somehow different to that which creates oil paintings or novels? Are animators, graphic designers, programmers and creative directors somehow less worthy of creative freedom because their medium isn't canvas?

You're not an adult, you're a huge man child who can't make a proper analogy about why his precious computer game should not be censored.
Well, I'm not a huge man child. I'm a father and general upstanding member of the community. The ridiculous idea that video games don't get classified in the same way as movies is just bad logic. It gives parents better information to decide what their kids play.

Unfortunately, as long as games are "for kids" or a "huge man child" for that matter, kids will be playing games they shouldn't. I'm a gamer, so I know that Manhunt or L4D2 isn't appropriate for my < 15yo, so I'm ahead of the game when it comes to my kids.

However, most parents I know, wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't care. In fact, I've heard feigned shock from some parents when they describe these terribly violent games... that they bought for their kids! When they discover that I actually play some of these games, they look at me like I have 3 heads and ask me why there are such violent games out there.. like I'm responsible because I'm one of those weird adult gamers. Amazingly, when questioned, they've actually been known to play Mario Kart, or Wii Sports. Apparently they aren't really games though...

/rant
Syco
Posted 01:37am 17/11/09
I'd like you to prove me wrong.


I'd argue that video games have the most 'artists' working compared to any other medium. Do not artists make art?

last edited by Syco at 01:37:29 17/Nov/09
Hashy
Posted 01:40am 17/11/09
Is it really "bad logic" to discriminate between watching someone being tortured violently and participating in it? Intent is also considered in any classification process, and many games glorify and encourage the act they're portraying.

The effect this kind of s*** has the effect on ANY mind at all is completely unknown and frankly pretty scary. Who are you to draw the lines between what is and isn't dangerous to a range of developing minds?
Syco
Posted 01:42am 17/11/09
Is it really "bad logic" to discriminate between watching someone being tortured violently and participating in it? Intent is also considered in any classification process, and many games glorify and encourage the act they're portraying.

The effect this kind of s*** has the effect on ANY mind at all is completely unknown and frankly pretty scary. Who are you to draw the lines between what is and isn't dangerous to a range of developing minds?


So why isn't AG Douchebag trying to remove R18+ classification from film and literature? Is it only video games that apparently affect people? I've spent a great deal of my free time watching horror films. I haven't run out and murdered a bunch of topless hoes yet. Stupid argument is stupid.
Hashy
Posted 01:52am 17/11/09
Is it only video games that apparently affect people? I've spent a great deal of my free time watching horror films. I haven't run out and murdered a bunch of topless hoes yet. Stupid argument is stupid.
Are you serious? This thread is f*****g with my usually decent irony detector.

Edit: holy s*** you were serious. Anyone disagreeing me is wrong by association.

last edited by Hashy at 01:52:52 17/Nov/09
Syco
Posted 01:51am 17/11/09
You forgot to quote:

So why isn't AG Douchebag trying to remove R18+ classification from film and literature?
DM
Posted 02:05am 17/11/09
Lets also not forget that banning games only creates a bigger urge for people to want to play them. They want to see what offended and since they can't BUY the game legally, they simply download it and then create worse problems for the industry. Either way most people will still end up playing the game.

Also this from Johnny the Homicidal Maniac by Jhonen Vasquez

Any pile of stunted growth unaware that entertainment is just that and nothing more, deserves to doom themselves to some dank cell, somewhere, for having been so stupid!! Movies, books, T.V., music - They're all just entertainment, not guidebooks for damning yourself!


last edited by DM at 02:05:48 17/Nov/09
Syco
Posted 02:05am 17/11/09
Lets also not forget that banning games only creates a bigger urge for people to want to play them. They want to see what offended and since they can't BUY the game legally, they simply download it and then create worse problems for the industry. Either way most people will still end up playing the game.


It's an argument sure but we really shouldn't need to be arguing this. Why the hell can't adults decide what is OK for them? Why do we need some fundamentalist douches in power telling us what is good and bad via their own moral compass? Do they not realise we vote them into power? Do they think we do this thinking we're mindless sheep and are asking them to tell us what we can and can't watch/enjoy/etc?
Mantra
Posted 02:39am 17/11/09
Is it really "bad logic" to discriminate between watching someone being tortured violently and participating in it? Intent is also considered in any classification process, and many games glorify and encourage the act they're portraying.
I wouldn't allow any of my children to play games that depict that sort of thing, and I actually think that my one adult son would probably make the right decision regarding that as well. I do see what you're saying though, that participating virtually would have a larger effect than just watching it. An excellent reason to have R18+ classifications, so kids don't get to play them!
The effect this kind of s*** has the effect on ANY mind at all is completely unknown and frankly pretty scary. Who are you to draw the lines between what is and isn't dangerous to a range of developing minds?
Like I said, I wouldn't let my kids play games like that. In fact, I would be quite happy to have games depicting violent rape and such banned, in the same way I wouldn't like to see porn that has those sorts of themes.

Who am I? I'm their father. You know.. the one that's responsible for raising them?
Trauma
Posted 03:13am 17/11/09
The people of Croydon have the definitive say on an issue that affects the entire country? Must be a very special place indeed!
Hashy
Posted 03:08am 17/11/09
All the arguments you're making are just given; technically savvy parents who care about the media their kids digest won't let them play unsuitable games. No amount of anecdotes on gaming forums by gaming dads will change the fact that the majority of parents will gladly buy the latest GTA installment for their kids without a second thought. It's a matter of ignorance, and it's pretty unique to video games as a medium.

There's a conceit that the lack of an R18+ means a lot of games that should be R18+ are allowed to slip into the MA15+ rating due to the supposed apathy, or greased palms, of the OFLC. I've never seen anything that compels me to believe that.
Syco
Posted 03:38am 17/11/09
No amount of anecdotes on gaming forums by gaming dads will change the fact that the majority of parents will gladly buy the latest GTA installment for their kids without a second thought. It's a matter of ignorance, and it's pretty unique to video games as a medium.


And what detrimental effect does this have on the kids over say ... watching violent adult films on SBS, Foxtel and the Internet while the same parents are asleep?
Hashy
Posted 03:39am 17/11/09
Stop f*****g posting.
Syco
Posted 03:45am 17/11/09
Stop f*****g posting.


Sure, but first you and the SA AG need to blow me.
blaze0041
Posted 07:37am 17/11/09
The G4C political party leader has made a rebuttal to Michael Atkinson's letter.
http://www.gamers4croydon.org/news/athoughtfulrebuttal
sqwert
Posted 08:44am 17/11/09
"home entertainment in imaginary worlds" he says, if so why take such a strong stand against it?
Jim
Posted 09:34am 17/11/09
No amount of anecdotes on gaming forums by gaming dads will change the fact that the majority of parents will gladly buy the latest GTA installment for their kids without a second thought.
prove it

It's a matter of ignorance, and it's pretty unique to video games as a medium.
how is it unique to video games? how, supposedly, doesn't this happen with other products which have age restrictions?

if there's a problem, work on the problem - don't spastically try and blanket ban an associated product as though it solves the problem. it doesn't - it simply hides the problem from some people and merely creates an annoying hurdle for others and arguably infringes the liberty of anyone over 18

this was already pointed out, and you've just skipped over it - too intent on standing your ground and flinging insults
tequila
Posted 10:50am 17/11/09
greazy, wrong as usual.

can not be trusted with the contents of something that is not expressly illegal



Yet the contents of these games are expressly illegal, rape, murder etc. Why would anybody want to play a game which contains an element of rape?


The games themselves how ever are not illegal, there is no law that says "L4D2 is illegal in Australia"

Computer games & technology are as much a part of our generation as the beetles are to your mums generation
People have lined up for days to see them perform just like people have lined up for days to be the first to own an iPhone

I would hazard a guess that more people have bought video games this decade than have ever bought tickets to a beetles concert, too.

Why can cigarretes get an 18+ rating but a video game can't?
The latter being far less dangerous to the population as a whole
Hogfather
Posted 12:39pm 17/11/09
From that G4C dude's rebuttal:
... the overwhelming majority of games rated suitable for 15 year olds in Australia are rated higher elsewhere in the world. Over 90% of games classified MA15+ between June and November '09 were rated 17+ in the US. All but one was rated either 16+ or 18+ in Europe. The "trifling" impact is that games intended for adults - recognised as such internationally - are available to Australian children. This is a failing of a classification system that says - first and foremost - that "adults should be able to read, hear and see what they want", while not providing an appropriate classification for that content.

...

It is true that edits can be made to prevent a game from being refused classification. But this usually means games are slightly edited and made available to teenagers. When Fallout 3 was edited to be allowed an MA rating, the edited version was distributed worldwide. Still, it was rated 17+ or 18+ in the US, Europe and New Zealand.

This is the real problem. The classification system is failing to deliver good advice to consumers (especially parental units) because it cannot classify material properly and must seek some middle ground between adults and minors that simply doesn't exist.

last edited by Hogfather at 12:39:31 17/Nov/09
dranged
Posted 12:29pm 17/11/09
f*****g politicians

we'd be better off without them

or, 5 year lifespan, Nexus 6 style. Then we send Chopper out to collect.
Hashy
Posted 01:30pm 17/11/09
It doesn't happen nearly as badly in any other medium. Joe Parent is much less likely to let their 10 year old kid watch a movie with tits in it than play God of War. It's UNIQUE to video games because outside of your geeky ass social bubbles video games are for children.

It's literally unprovable. Yet it's Michael Atkinson's reasoning. It's the reason the ESRB in America runs campaigns specific to video games, the reason there are especially strict monitoring of video game sales in many countries, and the main reason video games with controversial content get 100x more coverage. It's the reason for http://www.whattheyplay.com/

.f*****g politicians

we'd be better off without them

or, 5 year lifespan, Nexus 6 style. Then we send Chopper out to collect.
Great post. Anarchy rules. I'm 13 years old.
infi
Posted 01:48pm 17/11/09
not really. anarchy means you live in your own s***.
Hogfather
Posted 03:03pm 17/11/09
It doesn't happen nearly as badly in any other medium. Joe Parent is much less likely to let their 10 year old kid watch a movie with tits in it than play God of War. It's UNIQUE to video games because outside of your geeky ass social bubbles video games are for children.

The average age of a video gamer is about 30. This is shown in any number of surveys, its effectively a fact.

Just because you (and a bunch of other f*****g retards) think "video games are for kids" doesn't make it true.

A new rating system with appropriate advertising / education of the changes would actually help Joe Retard to make good choices for his children.

last edited by Hogfather at 15:03:47 17/Nov/09
fade
Posted 03:10pm 17/11/09
Atkinson is so settled on his position that he isn't going to change. Our only hope is that he drops dead of a heartattack, or the opposition is elected new time around.
orbitor
Posted 03:16pm 17/11/09
It doesn't happen nearly as badly in any other medium. Joe Parent is much less likely to let their 10 year old kid watch a movie with tits in it than play God of War. It's UNIQUE to video games because outside of your geeky ass social bubbles video games are for children.


what a load of s***. from what i've seen, virtually every male over 18 has a console or at least uses them at mates' places. And it's increasingly popular with adult women too with the more accessible stuff like Wii games & rhythm games etc.
Jim
Posted 03:40pm 17/11/09
It doesn't happen nearly as badly in any other medium. Joe Parent is much less likely to let their 10 year old kid watch a movie with tits in it than play God of War. It's UNIQUE to video games because outside of your geeky ass social bubbles video games are for children.
actually it's the opposite to what you're saying. I said so on the internet, so it's true


It's the reason the ESRB in America runs campaigns specific to video games
they're hardly going to run campaigns specific to board games are they? I'd argue that the esrb runs campaigns because it's the responsible thing to do and helps address the actual issue - that ratings exist for good reason and parents should be aware of what their kids are playing and be bringing them up in a manner where this problem is practically a non-issue.

the reason there are especially strict monitoring of video game sales in many countries
even if this were true, and wasn't yet another limited perception of your own that you're quoting as truth, what's your point?

and the main reason video games with controversial content get 100x more coverage.
yeh right - cos the media produce their content where a dire social need for responsible information exists. not cos something relatively new is coming up more frequently and it makes for advertising dollars to turn it into as much of a circus as possible.

It's the reason for http://www.whattheyplay.com/
that's completely false - read their about page:

Power to the Parents

Parents today face a variety of complex and challenging issues when it comes to understanding and keeping up with the various forms of popular entertainment that engage their children. Thatís why What They Like was created.

What They Like, founded in 2007 by entertainment and media industry veterans Ira Becker and John Davison, offers helpful resources within an unbiased, non-judgmental environment that provide parents with unparalleled insight and guidance about the various forms of popular entertainment that engage children. What They Like believes parents are the ultimate parental control. Our singular goal is to empower parents to do what they do best: parent.

What They Play What They Likeís first product, What They Play, is the parents guide to video games. As the most comprehensive resource of its kind, What They Play provides parents with expert insight into the themes and content of hundreds of todayís most popular interactive entertainment products. Through thousands of informative video game descriptions and topical feature articles, What They Play empowers parents with everything they need to know to make informed decisions about what games are right for their children.


these organisations exist because they see the real issue and want to address it - that parents need to be better parents

Hashy
Posted 03:53pm 17/11/09
Cool you're literally trying to make me argue the unarguable. And the blurb you quoted on that they play is exactly my f*****g point. They're trying to educate parents on the contents of video games because most people are ignorant.

Let's continue this inane back and forth on an issues with little study~

The burden of proof is kind've on you, since you're trying to incite the change.
Jim
Posted 04:03pm 17/11/09
Cool you're literally trying to make me argue the unarguable.
oh you've arrived at the point!
why do you think people are discussing michael atkinson's position like this? it's because he's trying to argue the (arguably) unarguable


And the blurb you quoted on that they play is exactly my f*****g point. They're trying to educate parents on the contents of video games because most people are ignorant.
phwoar two for two! the point is, that blocking the introduction of a R rating is the wrong way to attempt to protect minors. these very systems/organisations you think are proving your point, ARE part of the real solution.


The burden of proof is kind've on you, since you're trying to incite the change.
3 in a row, pow!
that's why people are discussing it and doing what they're doing

Hashy
Posted 04:13pm 17/11/09
yeh right - cos the media produce their content where a dire social need for responsible information exists. not cos something relatively new is coming up more frequently and it makes for advertising dollars to turn it into as much of a circus as possible.
hahahaha holy f*****g christ this is stupid. news love controversial subjects because it creates viewers and readers, which creates advertising revenue, yes. video games with adult content (and ratings to match) ARE BIG STORIES because they are CONTROVERSIAL. Why do you suppose it is controversial? Why don't fox news cover the latest M17 movie having a sex scene? Why did the tame ass sex scenes in Mass Effect, an M17 game, get so much coverage? F*****g think. As much as we hope otherwise, media outlets like fox are in tune with the public more than you or I.

You're all trapped in a bubble of nerd culture.

Still lollin' at someone quoting the average gamer as being 30, btw.

THIS DOESN'T MEAN I THINK VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR CHILDREN. FAR FROM IT.
3 in a row, pow!
that's why people are discussing it and doing what they're doing
And yet, here we are calling for the death of Michael Atkinson so the floodgates can be opened before we fully understand the situation. Booyah.

last edited by Hashy at 16:10:23 17/Nov/09

last edited by Hashy at 16:13:42 17/Nov/09
Foxbane
Posted 04:14pm 17/11/09
did he just say that he doest represent the people who he is meant to and is only working towards his own agenda?
Pinky
Posted 04:18pm 17/11/09
Hashy's going for his 15th ban. Nickname suggestion for next account: H45Hii

This is only controversial because Mr. Atkinson opposes something which most people, including his constituents, see as a pragmatic and logical progression of our ratings system - introducing a bloody R18+ category for interactive media!

Austin Powers, "Help. I'm trapped in a [bubble of nerd culture]"
Khel
Posted 04:18pm 17/11/09
Sex scenes in games are controversial and news-worthy and make big headlines because its a relatively new thing, its seen as pushing the boundaries because it isn't often done. I'm sure the first time there was a sex scene in a movie, it was equally controversial and scandalous, but look how common place and accepted they are today?

Maybe we aren't all trapped in a bubble of nerd culture, maybe its just a matter of some people not being willing to move forwards and being too stuck in their old fashioned mindsets and beliefs.

I mean, my father plays games on his mobile phone, my mother has a Wii, my brother relaxes on the weekend playing Halo 3 or Brutal Legend on his XBox 360, and I can guarantee you that there is no possible way any member of my family except me could be considered part of nerd culture. Games have progressed beyond being just something nerds or geeks play with, and they're becoming part of everyday life, but the systems for classifying them aren't keeping up.
Triamks
Posted 04:19pm 17/11/09
This is the real problem.


I agree. So perhaps, the debate should be framed in those terms instead of tears about the average gamer being 30. Think of the children Hogfather ;).

Atkinson is so settled on his position that he isn't going to change. Our only hope is that he drops dead of a heartattack, or the opposition is elected new time around.


Both of those scenarios are unlikely to help. I wrote earlier that while Atkinson may be the public target for gamers, he believes there are other AGs that are against the R18+ classification. So removing him, won't mean the other AGs will vote to create the classification. However, they might be scared into doing so if Atkinson loses his seat over the issue (unlikely given his last poll result). Furthermore, having the opposition come to power in SA wouldn't help either as Atkinson mentions in the postscript to his letter (or at least I think he does, his handwriting was hard to read), that the SA Liberals support him on this issue..
Hashy
Posted 04:24pm 17/11/09
Fox news aren't concerned with covering the evolution of video games as a medium, Khel. They, and many of their viewers (potential parents and caregivers), are shocked and appalled that a video game, any video game, could have adult content. The viewers that media outlets hope to attract with these stories probably aren't already screening the video games they buy for their children.
tequila
Posted 04:25pm 17/11/09
I had sex with your mother, Hashy

infi
Posted 04:28pm 17/11/09
Hashy wait until you're being censored and see how you like it. Censorship is not fun and we all tend to enjoy immense freedom in our communication and artistic expression but then some do-gooder comes along and says you can't draw THAT.

This is the thought-crime police in action. Not a single person is hurt, it is simply ideas in people's heads converted into artistic expression yet it is banned for the negative social risks??? WTF??
Hashy
Posted 04:30pm 17/11/09
Booyah, "thought police". One more square for nanny state conspiracy bingo.
infi
Posted 04:33pm 17/11/09
See, you're not so slow. It's a thought, transformed onto paper or electronic media, yet it's banned. It's so bizarre, it's ridiculous.
Hashy
Posted 04:36pm 17/11/09
Parking in a back alley to get a strongly implied headjob health refill from a prostitute is not a "thought" that anyone is interested in "policing".
Jim
Posted 04:38pm 17/11/09
you're not very good at this discussion/debate thing
Pinky
Posted 04:42pm 17/11/09
(unlikely given his last poll result)

Clicky? I can't find this poll result.
infi
Posted 04:43pm 17/11/09
yeah so let's clamp down on the insidious video games with all their dangerous pixels and vectors and whatnot. hahaha
slyin
Posted 04:45pm 17/11/09
15th ban for hashy, Congratulations. Sourcing you on this pinky because im not counting.
Genius
Posted 04:46pm 17/11/09
In a stunning display of debating prowess, jim banned me.
In an ironic twist a dissenting voice was quelled in a heated discussion about civil liberties
Pinky
Posted 04:47pm 17/11/09
In a stunning display of debating prowess, jim banned me.

ROFLJAJAJAJAJAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh Christ.....

That is funny.

But why not use the nick I suggested?

To be honest, I dunno what took Jim so long. He has a lot more patience than me. Hashy's posts have more insults than meaningful content.
Rohan
Posted 04:48pm 17/11/09
I'd have to agree with the whole cigarette analogy.
I mean, as a person over the age of 18, I can go out and buy a pack of cigarettes, which has been proven time and time again with irrefutable evidence, that by smoking, i'm causing severe detriment to my health and well being.
Yet I can't go to the shop and buy an R18+ video game. Why? Because the level of violence depicted in the video game will, apparently, have a severe psychological impact on me. I'll end up going on a murderous rampage after seeing such brutality (because, of course, i'm an impressionable 7y/o who has no idea of what is right or wrong i.e. i'm incapable of making rational decisions).
slyin
Posted 04:51pm 17/11/09
16th, censoring us from hashy, Jim is QGL's atkinson.
infi
Posted 05:01pm 17/11/09
hashy doesn't know how to debate in a polite way. i think it's because he's played too much CS in his childhood. (he's about 13 now isn't he?)

maybe we should censor video games to prevent more hashys?
Obes
Posted 06:05pm 17/11/09
I mean, my father plays games on his mobile phone, my mother has a Wii, my brother relaxes on the weekend playing Halo 3 or Brutal Legend on his XBox 360, and I can guarantee you that there is no possible way any member of my family except me could be considered part of nerd culture. Games have progressed beyond being just something nerds or geeks play with, and they're becoming part of everyday life, but the systems for classifying them aren't keeping up.

I'd suspect your brother of beating up nerds for being nerdy... or atleast randomly peeing on their inanimate stuff.
Triamks
Posted 06:19pm 17/11/09
ABC link okay pinky? - http://www.abc.net.au/elections/sa/2006/results/croy.htm It's also on the Gamers4Croydon website.
th4w
Posted 06:31pm 17/11/09
I find it interesting that Mr. Atkinson belies that children are only interested in _perverse_ sex and violence. This is why he is refusing an R18+ Classification.

By that rationale a mature game that has socially acceptable levels of R18+ sex and violence is acceptable. Then why isn't he supporting it?

Think about it. He believes that as children we are interested in _perverse_ sex and violence...
taggs
Posted 06:47pm 17/11/09
for someone who clearly thinks they're smarter than everyone else hashy sure says some utterly retarded s***
Pinky
Posted 06:51pm 17/11/09
ABC link okay pinky? - http://www.abc.net.au/elections/sa/2006/results/croy.htm It's also on the Gamers4Croydon website.

ABC is cool. I found that one, but it's 2006. I dunno who's up against him in the March 2010 election and if there's any poll for that. THAT will be the interesting one.

I'm not saying this issue is all that important - for an A-G it's not - however, it's one that a lot of people are passionate about, and therefore I think Mr. Atkinson should be acting with a little more caution than the flamboyantly disdainful approach we have seen so far. He is the Censorship Minister after all. People eventually get their backs up at arrogance and disdain. You have to be cool, argue rationally and logically. Mr. Atkinson isn't currently taking this approach with his latest communication. This reads to me like the kind of email that I'd write, save as a draft, re-read the next day, then cringe and delete with no further action.
trog
Posted 07:26pm 17/11/09
I'm not saying this issue is all that important - for an A-G it's not
Then why is it in the purview of the AG office?
greazy
Posted 08:07pm 17/11/09
Mantra, your whole post went off in the wrong direction. I disliked teqs s***** analogy between the banning computer games and the burning of books. Wikipedia has a fantastic article about book burning. The majority of books burnt meant the recorded information was lost for ever.
Are you suggesting that the creativity and effort that goes into making video games is somehow different to that which creates oil paintings or novels? Are animators, graphic designers, programmers and creative directors somehow less worthy of creative freedom because their medium isn't canvas?
I never talked about oil paintings so this point is moot.
Well, I'm not a huge man child. I'm a father and general upstanding member of the community. The ridiculous idea that video games don't get classified in the same way as movies is just bad logic. It gives parents better information to decide what their kids play.
I was directing that comment to teq and not anyone else.

Don't miss understand, the censorship of this game is bulls*** when you look around at other media and see similar elements are present in them. What's also bulls*** is the comparison between the burning of books and the banning - actually the censorship, of computer games.

P.S I bet you're a fantastic father.
Khel
Posted 08:14pm 17/11/09
Hes a fantastic daddy, and I don't mean in the father sense.
Hogfather
Posted 08:19pm 17/11/09
I agree. So perhaps, the debate should be framed in those terms instead of tears about the average gamer being 30. Think of the children Hogfather ;)

Well your enemy there (before ban) was Hashy not me, he was the one making the case that video games are for kids, I was just rebutteralising.
tequila
Posted 09:34pm 17/11/09
you're arguing semantics, by burning the books they were permanently censoring the public views and perceptions of a creation
by censoring a video game you're permanently changing the experience
the sheer ability to circumvent the censorship does not make it any less stifling


my son smiles/laughs/giggles at me every day at 5.30pm on the dot, he already recognises me and there is no feeling in the world quite like it :]


Triamks
Posted 10:54pm 17/11/09
Then why is it in the purview of the AG office?


The Attorneys-General have the legal portfolio, so this falls within its purview. Where else would it go?

Eg, Cth AG:
The Attorney-General is the minister responsible for legal affairs, national and public security...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_of_Australia
Mantra
Posted 12:27am 19/11/09
t doesn't happen nearly as badly in any other medium. Joe Parent is much less likely to let their 10 year old kid watch a movie with tits in it than play God of War. It's UNIQUE to video games because outside of your geeky ass social bubbles video games are for children.
And how does a parent work out whether a movie has tits in it? They look at the rating.

Movies:

"Hey Dad, can we get Original Sin?" *Holds up DVD sleeve with R18+ on it*

Currently with games we have this situation:

"Hey Dad, can I buy this game with my pocket money?" *Holds up GTA4 with an M on it*

Possible thought processes that go through parents that aren't allegedly caught in a "nerd bubble":

Movie - "R18+? My 12yo can't watch that!"
Game - "MA? It's a computer game for kids, how bad can it be?" or
"What do you do in this game?"
"You drive around and have races and stuff"
"Oh, er, ok"

What if the game had an R18+ on it? In my mind, it's that simple. Hogfathers quote sums it up nicely.
Over 90% of games classified MA15+ between June and November '09 were rated 17+ in the US
I thought it would be high, but that's just nuts.

I haven't seen a single post in this thread that makes sense not to have an R rating for games.

Also, sorry Greazy, I misunderstood where you were coming from :)

Also, Khel, you'll always be my big boy.

Also, dongs.
weedy
Posted 11:03pm 19/11/09
ok so from just readin that we can ascertain that he thinks r18+ games shouldnt be allowed for anyone cause heaven forbid a bad parent might let their kids play it. I dont have any kids retard so why cant i play r18+ games.

Parents might also sexually/physically abuse there kids does that mean we remove all items from the house that could be used to abuse a child? NO so why are games any different.

This whole debate is all because of religious, womans and fanatical groups being in the pocket of our politicians (donations) and nothing more or less... its a sad thing to say but politics in Australia is corrupted by the lack of stringent montoring of donations to parties and politicians.

This is one reason the Greens are good they refuse to accept donations from multi nationals and when they do accept donations from decent organisations they PUBLISH them on their website. They also publish a list of the Liberal and Labor donations if your interested since they DONT.

These old fogies are so out of touch with modern australia its a joke. We need some new politicians and a new system.
Cheli
Posted 06:24pm 22/11/09
What I dont understand is why they let some games which should really have an R-18+ rating through as MA 15+, and they ban ones that could get away with an MA rating.

Ie. I bought MW2 the other day. Sure, it had a warning at the start, but you know, being the arrogant person I am, I thought "theres nothing that could offend me". So I play. I walk into an airport and mow the s*** out of men and women. I actually felt physically sick playing that level, and I stopped 5 minutes into it. Not only is shooting them while they run away sickening, but having the option to shoot them when they have their hands up in surrender, or are dragging a friend away, or bleeding on the ground. And if you dont, then your AI comrades do the honour. Disgusting.

The fact is, even though you have the option to skip that level, its still there, therefore MW2 should have an R-18+ rating (which we dont have =\). I dont want it banned, i like the game, but we need the rating there so people have some idea of the impact of the game. And so that kids dont go in and buy it. Kids thinking its 'Fun' to do that sort of thing have not been raised properly. And may/maynot grow up upholding warped moralities.

At least with L4D2, the intent is not evil. Your killing zombies, not people. Your fighting for life, not terrorising society. But as it has so much gore, if I were in the OFLC, I would also rate it an R 18+, giving the population the freedom to decide wether this game is worth it, instead of making the decision for us.

Also, games are art. Anything that requires imagination and creation is art in my books. I could turn this little rant here into a song, and people would call it art. I could depict it in paint, again art. Games are art.
ConcernedGamer
Posted 06:39pm 22/11/09
[quiote]Also, games are art.[/quote] this a million times this
HERMITech
Posted 11:19pm 22/11/09
walk into an airport and mow the s*** out of men and women.

You do know that you can do one of up to several or more options at this point:

A: Quit the game?
B: Don't actually shoot anyone, just walk behind?

The first two that sprang to my mind when I first encountered that scene were: A then B in that order
fpot
Posted 08:02am 23/11/09
Man I want to play the f*** out of that civilian murdering bit I am sick of virtual enemies that can fight back!

How do you think a 'AuschwitzTycoon' style game would go down with the censorship board?
Triamks
Posted 09:28am 23/11/09
I actually felt physically sick playing that level


You know it's a game right? You weren't actually shooting innocent people.
infi
Posted 10:02am 23/11/09
Some people get a bit caught up in the whole reality vs. computer game thing.
Triamks
Posted 10:17am 23/11/09
It's such a shame infi :(
groganus
Posted 10:19am 23/11/09
Some people get a bit caught up in the whole reality vs. computer game thing.


People read books and feel emotions... People play games and feel emotions, you should know this considering how you harped on about it being artistic expression and what not.

kappa
Posted 10:28am 23/11/09
I felt nothing when I played that level. Does that make me a bad person? Does that make me more likely to commit an act of terrorism?

If I saw REAL footage of the exact same scenario, I can tell you I would have probably passed out.

Is it really that difficult to distinguish between real and virtual?
infi
Posted 10:33am 23/11/09
ou should know this considering how you harped on about it being artistic expression and what not.


so are you saying it is normal and expected to get as emotional about a purely fictional story as a real life event?
Triamks
Posted 10:45am 23/11/09
If I saw REAL footage of the exact same scenario, I can tell you I would have probably passed out.


So would I. But I knew when playing that level that it was fictional so I, like you, didn't feel anythign when playing it. I don't think we're bad people. I don't know what groganus is going on about. Edit: Well I do, but not to the extent that he is saying what he is saying is true because it's not. No doubt he'll have an interesting response :/

last edited by Triamks at 10:45:49 23/Nov/09
groganus
Posted 11:23am 23/11/09
so are you saying it is normal and expected to get as emotional about a purely fictional story as a real life event?


Possibly... everyone is different... if you think video games are on the same level as art then you have to realise that they carry the power of effecting peoples emotions... not all games will do this.. and not all people will be effected...

Even if you smile while playing a video game for the simplist of reasons such as completeing a task that was difficult then you have experienced an emotion.

Maybe im a big pussy, but video games have had the power to make me cry... ive screamed at video games the same way a sports nut yells at his favourite team.

On the subject of MW2.. i didnt feel disturbed playing the terrorist level.. however when we rescued Price.. i got spastic happy...




infi
Posted 12:47pm 23/11/09
The only time I cried in a video game is mp_crash in cod4, where you can pull of that bs snipe across the whole map 2 seconds in.
Hogfather
Posted 12:52pm 23/11/09
Watched the first half of Inglorious Basterds last night (I'm an old man and need my sleepies). The scene where The Bear and his bat is introduced is significantly more disturbing than anything I have seen in video games. Also the infamous "teeth to curb" scene in American History X is again leaps and bounds of a few dead civilians.
Draconous79
Posted 01:18pm 27/11/09
for any body in Queensland AU there is an official gov online petition to try to pass r18+ games there:

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_QLD/CurrentEPetition.aspx?

PetNum=1346&lIndex=-1 who knows... if it gets passed there it might start the ball rolling for the rest of us....
Spook
Posted 10:59am 28/11/09
haha hoggy, i generally need naps during moofies too!
D3FCON
Posted 11:46am 28/11/09
someone get his direct contact information i.e home adress and phone number and lets spam the f*** out of him. Egg his house and car. piss on his plants and hopefull veggie garden. Wipe the floor with him. After reading alot of this i wish i was in SA near Croyden but bah going to SA. Someone do something youtube it and lets get it rolling :D
CSIRAC
Posted 01:27pm 28/11/09
Idiot
trog
Posted 01:37pm 28/11/09
someone get his direct contact information i.e home adress and phone number and lets spam the f*** out of him. Egg his house and car. piss on his plants and hopefull veggie garden. Wipe the floor with him. After reading alot of this i wish i was in SA near Croyden but bah going to SA. Someone do something youtube it and lets get it rolling :D
if you DO do something like that, please ensure you do put it on youtube so you can be arrested, which is all that sort of behaviour would really deserve!

When you say things like that all you're doing is validating his position
D3FCON
Posted 09:04am 29/11/09
yeah fare enough. It just frustrates me something cronic. The lifeless tool has no idea. the only thing he should be inforcing is the kids playing the games they are not old enough for i.e M and M15+, R18+ should not be blocked but just controled
tequila
Posted 11:09am 29/11/09
yeah fare enough. It just frustrates me something cronic. The lifeless tool has no idea. the only thing he should be inforcing is the kids playing the games they are not old enough for i.e M and M15+, R18+ should not be blocked but just controled


Fair.
Chronic.
Enforcing.
Controlled.
D3FCON
Posted 11:51am 29/11/09
ohh sorry mr i wake up at 11am wanker.......... If this was a spelling competition I would prob care about my spelling deeply.. tool
tequila
Posted 12:05pm 29/11/09
it's hard to take anything you say seriously when you can't spell basic words
Mephz
Posted 01:52pm 29/11/09
it's hard to take anything you say seriously when you can't spell basic words
And the numeric 3 for an e, please don't forget the numeric 3 teq!
SthAussie
Posted 02:38pm 08/12/09
I for one feel its about time we get rid of all these old codgers from Government. They all seem to be stuck in the 1930's still. No wonder this country is pathetic in many ways. Atkinson, our Pathetic Attorney-General is so backwards its not funny. Personally I feel as long as he gets his nice fat tax payer funded pay cheque each month he doesn't give two s**** on what goes for Australians. Lets hope someone rises to teh occasion in his electorate and kicks his ass out of office.
richb
Posted 06:16pm 26/1/10
If they really are just imaginary worlds separate from real life then why the issue - why have game classification at all?

Either be consistent with censorship or don't censor at all.

Our government tolerates the representation of human beings as objects - and prevents it's citizens from fighting not only real evil but imaginary evil.
Mantra
Posted 06:39pm 26/1/10
Yeah!
Obinoodle
Posted 08:26pm 28/1/10
i cant believe that he's still at it!, HES LOST!, politically and mentally. How can he be the voice of Australia when he has got our Point Of View all wrong!. Let adults and mature gamers play the games that they wont, not some fizzled down version of man hunt thats now "Collect rainbow buttons and lolliepops and feed them to pink rabbits" to pass a level -_-. In my opinion, its fine for him to protect his children from these games, but banning them altogether is not the option. Just get him to educate the public about R18 games and the effect of them on the younger audience, this way he's happy and were happy :)
evıs
Posted 10:06pm 02/3/10
At least this completely proves there's no link between games and violence or this donkey would be long gone.
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