



|
Post by Term @ 12:25pm 29/09/08 | 46 Comments
![]() I thought I'd take two seconds to be the (increasingly) lone voice of differing opinion on this issue and offer a few reasons why I'm happy that an R18+ classification does NOT exist in Australia. It's a shame that a few games each year have to bear the brunt of the current environment that game censorship in Australia finds itself - indeed those games are actually fine and I have no issues with them - but in every system there are victims, and I'd personally rather the victim in this saga be a publisher than a child. My issue with ratings comes from spending the last eight years managing and maintaining game servers and large game communities. The company I work for has probably been doing this longer than anyone and has had more exposure to the Australian game community than anyone else in the country, no question. This gives us some insight to how censorship is applied in your average Australian household. So here's the scoop on that: Generally it isn't applied, at all - not one bit. The number of kids we've had to try and moderate on our services has been massive. This is playing games that are either M, or in the case of Counter-strike, MA rated games where clearly the child is too young for the game. That is to say, where the person has admitted to being under the age of 15, and the game is MA (which makes the game illegal for the person in question to purchase in Australia). Does the parent care? Probably doesn't even notice. Does the Game Retailer care? Probably doesn't even occur to them. So the problem becomes this - If you introduce an R18+ rating into an environment where you have zero policing of laws, an ambivalent parent, and an un-sympathetic retailer who just wants to make their money and who doesn't have any repercussions when breaking the law - what happens? While I'm all for an open society where adults can buy what they want - children absolutely must, at all costs, be protected. They cannot be protected in the above scenario. An R18+ classification cannot exist until the method by which games are sold is corrected to allow the correct application of existing classifications. Its worth adding here, that I know not everyone agrees with me, hell even in our office here we all don't agree, as such this is my view not that of everyone that works here.
|
|
Posted 12:30pm 29/9/08
The Government should set Guidelines to help parents make informed decisions.
Not that I really care about not having a R18 either. I just hate that people refuse to step up and take responsibility for their actions.
Posted 12:39pm 29/9/08
While I agree that these kids shouldn't be playing Counter-strike, the implementation of an R18+ rating isn't really relevant to that imo.
Term's problem seems to be more one of retail enforcement, more than censorship.
I'm all for an R18+ rating in Australia, because I think it would result in more games being correctly classified. No more of this MA15+ BS for games like GTA, kids under 18 _should not_ be playing GTA 4 and if we had have had an R18+ rating, I feel it would have been more likely to receive that classification.
Posted 12:40pm 29/9/08
Posted 12:45pm 29/9/08
Also, you seem to have some kind of idealistic expectation that once a game has been "banned" in Australia, no one, 18+ or not, is not going to play it. Yeah man, imports and piracy don't exist.
Posted 12:46pm 29/9/08
My issue is soley that of policing. Providing the protection of sale of that content cannot be applied, it should never be allowed. They absolutely have to fix how they police the sale of classified content before they make a R18+ classification available.
Posted 12:50pm 29/9/08
Since kids under 15 have their parents buy the game then it's on the parents, there is nothing a retailer can really do. Kids over 15 earn their own money and purchase their own games, if there was an R rating then the retailer would not be able to sell to them if they weren't over 18.
Posted 12:54pm 29/9/08
In my opinion this no-R18 classification thing only perpetuates any sloppy enforcement of sales on this type of media and makes it easier for slack parenting to continue. How hard could it be introduce fines along the lines of those alcohol retailers are threatened with?
And what's la-la about what Dan said? I think you might've misinterpreted it - he's saying that because of the lack of an R rating that some titles which would probably otherwise be classified R, are being squeezed into MA15 and thus being made available to kids, which is what you're saying you don't want to see happen at all costs.
Posted 12:55pm 29/9/08
Sure, it's going to piss off publishers because their game isn't getting the shelf exposure. But I still think that's a better alternative to outright banning.
Posted 12:59pm 29/9/08
Posted 01:00pm 29/9/08
Posted 01:09pm 29/9/08
Posted 01:23pm 29/9/08
You can't walk into an R18+ movie at a cinema because you have to show id, any minors caught will result in a fine to said cinema. Introduce tougher fines for breaking a retail law that states you need to be a certain age to buy/play a game.
The other problem without an R18+ rating is certain games that were intended to be played or experienced (by an adult) in a certain way are dumbed down, or RC'd. It's infringing on artistic integrity imo
Posted 01:28pm 29/9/08
Why should gamers miss out ....
Posted 01:47pm 29/9/08
I think in the consciousness of some people M is a bit of a soft rating, parents probably aren't aware that movies and games are graded under entirely different systems and they think ah, M rated movies aren't usually that bad, M rated games are fine. But R rated stuff, thats a hard rating, everyone, educated or not, instinctively knows that R rated stuff is adults only and has to be kept out of the hands of kids. We've been conditioned to know that R rated stuff is just not kid friendly at all, but M rated stuff is a lot more likely to slip under the radar.
But yeah, I also agree, the whole thing is pointless if its not enforced at the point of sale. The idea of charging then fines like people who sell alcohol or cigarettes to minors is a good one imo.
last edited by Khel at 13:47:30 29/Sep/08
Posted 02:18pm 29/9/08
But banning it for sale in Australia doesn't make it hard to purcahse anyway, it just means that it's going to come in and be totally unclassified. There are numerous online retailers around the world who will ship to Australia, and don't know our laws, so won't care. on top of which, the parents now won't have ANY indicator on the side of thoe box to tell them anything about the game.
So all you've done is A) force us to send our money over seas. B) No guidelines for the parents that do care enough to check. C) In an indirect manner, encourage piracy. D) Censored adults with out any direct result.
I'm not saying you're wrong, i'd like to see them enforce the rating system on games too. But the same parents who don't care that their kid sits down and watches silent hill, won't care if he buys it.
Posted 02:25pm 29/9/08
Posted 02:55pm 29/9/08
Posted 03:00pm 29/9/08
Posted 03:13pm 29/9/08
I think the main problem is retail - the retail of games is greatly un-tested, for example, the lack of existence for an accepted online ID verification. Some sites use a credit card as proof of age, which is incredible. Since when could you buy cigarettes because you showed a credit card?
Posted 03:28pm 29/9/08
Posted 03:33pm 29/9/08
And in the meantime, if no tangible methods of ensuring R18+ titles aren't sold to minors exists? Don't forget the type of content that would now be creatable once an R18+ category exists. Did you even read the thread properly?
Posted 03:55pm 29/9/08
I think considering there are markets that already have this rating, that the content is already being created. Australia refusing classification would probably mean little to most games, in the global pie, we're a small slice.
Posted 03:57pm 29/9/08
It keeps the potential R games off the shelves and gives these games less exposure to the young ones. Most of us adults that really want to buy those games can easily import them, usually requiring a credit-card.
This allows any parent who purchased it the opportunity to regulate it, the sneaky kid cant just buy it from a dodgy shop and hide it, he/she would have to use your credit-card and get busted next statement.
If the kid has the ability to download it, then it doesn't matter if it was banned or not.
Posted 04:01pm 29/9/08
I'm not saying I agree with this article, but it's far from ridiculous
Posted 04:12pm 29/9/08
Actually, you can't easily import them, if its refused classification here its illegal to import it. And with the growing amount of press this issue is getting, especially with Fallout 3 recently, I wouldn't be suprised if customs starts paying closer attention when stuff like this comes past them.
Posted 04:39pm 29/9/08
So what is the official office's view then? Editorially speaking.
Posted 04:41pm 29/9/08
Posted 04:47pm 29/9/08
So you're upset about the possible lack of enforcement, rather then the possible classification.
Posted 04:56pm 29/9/08
sorry, that statement wasn't a for or against, it was just a, creating an R Rating isn't going to see every developer go out there and replace soldiers with with strippers who inject heroin and throw dildos as their weapons.
Posted 05:05pm 29/9/08
To say 'but the uk has an X rating' or other arguments similar to this cannot be used since the issue I am pointing out is specific to how these ratings are enforced by the Australian Government, not the Government of the United Kingdom or that of United States of America.
Anyway, its just my view, and I thought rather than hearing the same old shit you'll read on every other site of omg dont take my game away u bastard government, I thought you might be interested in a different view (weather you agree with it or not).
Posted 05:15pm 29/9/08
They do exist. Are games sold in shops? Like cigarettes? Ok, so maybe you don't allow online sales of R18+ games in the short-term, but there's no good reason why there isn't an R18+ category that I have heard.
As these things go, if such a category was created now it would come with a massive list of infrastructure required in order to support the distribution anyway.
Yes I read the thread properly, thanks for asking.
Posted 05:17pm 29/9/08
I personally appreciate your view and find it extremely valid, sadly the opposing arguments have valid points as well.
I’d like to see our government promote gaming classifications and assist in educating parents on what games are appropriate for their children, but clearly the cost of such a thing does not have enough positive re-enforcement for the government to bother changing its ways, it’s far easier for them to refuse classification and have the publisher either not sell it in the country or have them edit the game and have it re-classified.
Posted 05:29pm 29/9/08
so maybe the article/point of view isn't so ridiculous after all?
No probs. It really doesn't seem like you did though, cos you just blundered along claiming the article was ridiculous despite the completely un-ridiculous nature of it and it's ensuing conversation.
Posted 06:46pm 29/9/08
1. Clearly "at all costs" is patently false; or all R rated material on any type of media would be completely banned and possession would be punishable by death. That said, I dont think anyone (except retailers) would object to enforcing games ratings.
2. But in the US, dont Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony refuse to authorize games that are rated 18+ (but allow games that are NC17+)
If we did have an 18+ rating, would we actually see any games with it on consoles?
3. I've also read that some US game retailers (like Walmart) wont carry PC games that are 18+ , meaning that any such game is doomed sales wise
Posted 07:26pm 29/9/08
For the last 16 years, I've been watching 18+ and MA movies since I was 7ish, and so have all of my friends. VIOLENCE IN GAMES IS BAD. And? It's also bad in movies, music, pictures, magazines, the net... Either shove in an R rating for games or get rid of the R rating in everything else. The only argument I can see against the R rating is the inability of retailers to restrict children from getting their hands on the stuff. Wow, this is so different from any other industry?
The only successful ratings restriction I've ever seen was in the cinemas, and that's at the IMAX... But at Garden city, carindale, and Hawthorne they don't care.
From my last 16 years experience, trust me.
The ratings system is a joke.
Posted 08:06pm 29/9/08
The ratings system is a joke.
which is exactly why we dont have an r18+ rating... if we did it would open the door up to all kinds of nasty shit(which yes, some of it wouldnt be horrific, but some you still wouldnt want children watching) and atm australia doesnt do a good enough job policing the rating system we already have..
Posted 08:58pm 29/9/08
There's my point. The doors already fucking open.
last edited by Phooks at 20:58:30 29/Sep/08
Posted 10:12pm 29/9/08
Also, the same outlets that sell games seem to do ok Selling MA15+ movies.
It's not the ratings thats the problem, it's the culpability of retailers.
Posted 11:44pm 29/9/08
and it seems like that monitoring the retailers if their selling to minors are impossible..
Posted 12:58am 30/9/08
I've moved over here from NZ, which has an R18 rating for it's games. I used to work at Dick Smith back in NZ, and I was incredibly diligent about what games I would sell to people. I turned a lot of kids away who were trying to buy R18 games, and would always request to see ID if they even looked like they might not be 18. The reason I was so onto it was because both myself and my employer could be fined massive amounts of money if I sold an R rated game to a minor! Are there no laws like this in Australia? If not, then I guess I can see where the writer is coming from in this article, because without punishment for the retailers then there is no deterrent to stop them from selling R rated games to minors.
In regards to the parents, unfortunately a lot of them really don't seem to be up with the play when it comes to what their kids are playing. I recall a couple of occasions when I was working at DSE, and a parent was purchasing GTA: San Andreas for her son ( who must have been about 13 years old ). I advised her that the game was rated R18, and contained extreme violence and language and sexual situations, but she honestly didn't seem to care. I got the impression that she thought that because it was just a game, it couldn't be that bad. But on the flip-side, there was one parent that I talked out of buying GTA for his son when I told him about it's content. So, there are some smart parents out there who listen to reason :)
Posted 08:54pm 30/9/08
Posted 02:43am 01/10/08
Posted 03:36am 01/10/08
IIRC the reason we let them in at all was because we had no knowledge of the rules and regulations that were in place around those things at the time, and as soon as we found out the next LAN was made 15+ only. It didn't even kick up that much of a stink, though there were a few people annoyed by it (many others were like "hey when will it be 18+ so we can drink as well!?" :)
The current situation as I understand it is that the retailers are required by law to make sure they aren't selling MA15+ games to people under 15. I just had a quick look and couldn't find penalties, but I'm sure there are some, probably not harsh enough though.
It just needs to be ruthlessly and publicly enforced - if they had similar fines like they do for selling minors alcohol I reckon compliance would probably rocket pretty close to 100%. I'm over 30 now and I'm _still_ getting asked for ID when I go into bars, because there's a massive financial incentive for bars to not break the law in this case - because the feds are ruthless about enforcing it, and fines come thick and fast - to the bar and, I believe, to the staff member that breaks the law?
Good post Megakrang despite your OBVIOUS kiwi leanings
Posted 04:48pm 01/10/08
Posted 04:53pm 01/10/08
I'm not quite 18.
Shh, don't tell anyone.
Posted 06:25pm 01/10/08
Posted 11:28am 02/10/08