getthatscrilla
Melbourne, Victoria
38 posts
hi,
im serious about becoming a web designer. so what should a start learning? im currently doing a design course but i want to get stuck into it this summer to give myself a head start.
so im wondering: what programs and/or mark up language should i start learning? also wheres a good place to buy a domain to muck around with so that i can get some practice actually getting my website up?
help much appreciated!
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kr0wb4r
Brisbane, Queensland
638 posts
At least start with html and css if you don't know them already, don't bother learning frames, it's all about div's. Then you can go in any number of directions from there, a bit of java, php, jquery will keep you busy for a while, by then you'll know what you'll need to learn.
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Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
7866 posts
I buy my domains here: http://www.crazydomains.com.au
It's contentious but I'd suggest learning all of: XHTML, JavaScript, PHP, Ruby on Rails (separately of your PHP learning), MySQL (managed with phpMyAdmin). Since you probably want to start on the readily available and free route I'd suggest installing XAMPP and using Aptana as your design environment.
Another option is to go the Microsoft route and learn XHTML, ASP.NET and MSSQL.
Will your focus be on making stuff happen programming wise on the site or actual fonts, pretty pictures and design? |
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
32441 posts
First of all, I'd ask that you define exactly what you mean by "web designer"?
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thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
6911 posts
Give http://www.w3schools.com/ a read
Firstly you need to understand the output that the browser reads. Start with HTML 4.01 - get that down pat, and have a quick look at XHTML and HTML5
Then learn CSS. This is what you use to make things look a particular way.
That is all stuff you can just do from folders/files on your computer without installing any other programs (other than the editor you want to write this in).
Once you get a sense of what you can do with those, you should then look into good practices for designing websites. Usability is important, I recommend reading Don't make me think. You can prototype web layouts using this technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Website_wireframe and as far as making interesting looking designs, nice aesthetics, and graphics - well that's really up to your imagination and what skills you have with programs like illustrator, photoshop, etc.. which you can learn separately.
If you want to be more pro you can look into JavaScript (in-browser programming to manipulate your pages) and PHP (server-side programming and templating to generate your pages), and SQL (databases) to make your pages a bit more dynamic and have more functionality. But for this stuff it is easiest to use a CMS like Drupal and frameworks like jQuery to expedite the process and not having to reinvent the wheel. For all this stuff you'll either have to install a web server (like XAMPP) on your computer, or get web hosting and perhaps a domain to make it public.
last edited by thermite at 16:27:28 01/Dec/10 |
getthatscrilla
Melbourne, Victoria
39 posts
Will your focus be on making stuff happen programming wise on the site or actual fonts, pretty pictures and design?
eventually both but for now i just want to get some experience and see what its all about. like krowbar said so i know what i need to learn
First of all, I'd ask that you define exactly what you mean by "web designer"?
well im trying to get my head around the whole thing by giving it a go. i study graphic design and i want to apply those skills to making websites and web based media.
Give http://www.w3schools.com/ a read
this is where ive dabbled in html before. il definately check out everything else you guys have said too. its a lot to go on with already thanks heeps.
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crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
1460 posts
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
6912 posts
I'm "tinkering" atm and my step son who does it for a living
hey come on, we're supposed to be talking about web
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FraktuRe
Gold Coast, Queensland
2714 posts
Hey pinky do you also get hosting with those guys? seems like a pretty good/cheap deal.
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myWhiteWolf
Brisbane, Queensland
3023 posts
But for this stuff it is easiest to use a CMS like Drupal and frameworks like jQuery to expedite the process and not having to reinvent the wheel. good if your trying to make money, but a very poor way of learning imo.
i'm assuming you want to be the "hey, i want a webpage" person who does everything from scratch? design, development & administration?
go the wamp rout, host it on your own local machine to give yourself at least some basic exposure to the administration of a webserver as well(that, and it will be free).
learn (in my reccomended order) html, css, javascript, php & working with mysql and then finally AJAX. with a good comprehension of that there will be very little you won't be able to do with a webpage, also, if you haven't already, get familar with the adobe software suite.
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Peeka
Melbourne, Victoria
259 posts
my bad wrong topic lol had few open
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crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
1462 posts
does anyone know if you can put multi apps in one icon ie all my games under the icon games instead of having million apps all over my phone
and this relates to the OP how?
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Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
17514 posts
I agree with white wolf, I stuck apache/php/mysql on my own computer, easier to muck around with than uploading stuff to a remote server and more than once I've managed to lock up apache messing about with things I shouldn't be so I can only imagine how cranky a web host company would have been.
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Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
11237 posts
 The web 'designer' people I know don't do much coding at all. They do up concept images and stuff and chuck it off to some coding monkey then roll around in their cash monies :p
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$ack
Brisbane, Queensland
1358 posts
All you need is ssh/scp + vim :D
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Superform
Netherlands
6442 posts
you need to be more specific.. web designer? or web site builder? in my experience building multi million dollar sites theres a big difference
builder get into asp/flash/flex/css/java/sql
designer.. go to design school.. pick a good one and learn alot.. then learn how to translate your ideas so that builders/clients know wtf your on about
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HyperJ
Brisbane, Queensland
278 posts
You will probably want to ask yourself whether you want to do purely design 'marketing' sites of move towards more web based applications.
I am .net developer so my view is probably biased...
You can get the free express tools http://www.microsoft.com/express/ and tinker with those from both code and database aspects, all are easy to install and get running.
If you are looking at the simple sites with a few forms for inputting data, MS MVC is a really fast way of producing sites.
There are plenty of example tutorials and the like around, and many pre built controls.
I'd say the market is split 50/50 between .net and mysql/php so you cant go wrong either way. |
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
7871 posts
Hey pinky do you also get hosting with those guys? seems like a pretty good/cheap deal.
Nah, I use Web Faction personally for hosting and Crazy Domains just as a really cheap domain name registrar. I've never had to ask a support question there - just seems to work properly, as something that simple bloody well should!
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`ViPER`
Brisbane, Queensland
3141 posts
Yeah "web designer" is a realy vague term these days.
I dont know any 1 person that would build a decent size website by themselves.
Sure 1 person could build a website for a small SMB company with just some static information, but i'm sure you dont want to limit yourself to just that sort of market.
You realy need to decide now what part of "web design" you want to do, back end or front end, they are 2 completly different things.
In saying that, its pays either side to have a bit of knowledge of what the other side is doing.
Download some free blog engine or forum software and start playing around with it, that will give you an idea on how things go together without building things from scratch.
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Jabroney
Queensland
1293 posts
while we are on the subject. I've got a relatively simple idea that I'd like made into a website. I have no idea on webdesign, and wanted to get this up and running, it could potentially be used by universities and schools.
If any of you are reasonable at making websites, gimmie a bell, I'm not really sure how much ppl charge ect... but let me know
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Superform
Netherlands
6443 posts
hire me! just know a typical 2-4 hour meeting would set you back 10-15 grand.. let me know if you want a brochure
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Nerfington
Brisbane, Queensland
1534 posts
It really is a bit vague regarding what you want to be able to do. Maybe if you give an example, we can point you towards specific things you'll want to look into.
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myWhiteWolf
Brisbane, Queensland
3026 posts
Sure 1 person could build a website for a small SMB company with just some static information, 1 person could do a lot more than just that.
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mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
5756 posts
crazydomains are cheap but crap. i register with them but use everydns for dns hosting. start on xhtml and css / themes in .net. perhaps looking more rich client tech like silverlight / html5 or flash. |
grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
35 posts
bepatient
Melbourne, Victoria
268 posts
^ grazer is dead on.
Figure out from the start exactly what you want to do. I made the mistake of wanting to do everything but not kicking ass in anything specific until recently.
I know designers who do not even do HTML/CSS - but they are brilliant at designing.
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thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
6999 posts
He's already a graphics designer.
Being able to design and develop is a bonus. Recommended.
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grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
36 posts
He's already a graphics designer.
Being able to design and develop is a bonus. Recommended.
oh. right. 'cause he mentioned he serious about becoming a webdesigner and wanted to do a design course. Though he did mentioned wanting to make websites.
In that case, he can go learn html and css and grok how CMS's work. don't need mad developer skills to make websites (web apps is something else!)
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2579 posts
TiT
Brisbane, Queensland
3843 posts
grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
37 posts
lol that's me, cargo pants, beard, t-shirt. don't like fixed price billing tho :p
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Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
30904 posts
i dont like web designers
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TiT
Brisbane, Queensland
3844 posts
lol that's me, cargo pants, beard, t-shirt. don't like fixed price billing tho :p
Fixed price billing is only if you are web designer not developer
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grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
38 posts
Fixed price billing is only if you are web designer not developer
You've never given a fixed price quote for a tender?
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Superform
Netherlands
6464 posts
You've never given a fixed price quote for a tender?
hahahahahahahaah
we try.. it never works
usually like this,
vendor: "yes the fixed price includes *this* but all *this* is totally out of scope..."
me: "but all we asked was to change the font size, cause the font you chose doesn't fit in the tout space!"
vendor: "yeah.. that's totally another 5 hours - make sure you pay in time cause i totally need another ivory backscratcher"
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Crusher
Newcastle, New South Wales
671 posts
The first thing you need to do, as a web designer, is find the normal healthy industry rate for web design, then discount it by 50%.
Then, see if you can live off that amount of money. If you can, then lop another 25% off. If you can't, then exit now.
Next, see how much you can get it done in India for, and then price yourself lower than that.
Sure you wont make enough money to live off, and you will be out of business inside 6 months, and you will totally fuck the industry, your peers and market perception up in the process but hey, why not, everyone else is doing it as "freelancers" so why not join in screwing the industry up even more.
I had a meeting the other day with a prospective client for us to build them an ecomm site for their national beverage business. Majorly customised with integration into a host of freight providers, multiple pricing tiers and calculations based of qty and status. Not something that you can do off of the shelf with magento/joomla etc.
At the end of the meeting we enquire about budget scope, and get told $1-2k is the maximum since thats what their web desiger told them it would cost.
This was the same freelancer web designer who on the main website bid $600 on the same scope we bid $2.5k for, and we then had to spend a few hours making his stuff work - he didnt know how to make an asp mailer form or how to suibmit sites to google. He kept telling the end client "I dont know how, thats the web hosts job".
Thanks "freelancers", you have utterly ruined the industry. People competing to see who can make the least amount of money makes absolutely no business sense.
last edited by Crusher at 20:15:46 22/Dec/10
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getthatscrilla
Melbourne, Victoria
44 posts
so what makes the difference between the guy who designs websites and the guy who designs magazine layouts? i get the vibe that a lot of web developers have a grudge to bare here.
my friends brother designed the nintendo website and he reckons they get paid shitloads, and theres shitloads of work out there. he works in IT as well.
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2580 posts
That just sounds like competition though Crusher.
Someone bids a totally bullshit low price and if they can meet the demands of the client at that price then you're the one that's overpriced not them underpriced. If they can't meet the demands of the client at that price then the client gets shit off and tells everyone else to go with someone else next time. Even if the dodgy guys screw it up there's an opportunity for the more reputable mobs to come in and salvage the job for a fair price.
When the industry matures either the fly by nighters disappear because they go out of business or different pricing tiers will emerge. Some clients want a cheap, shoddy job, and others will want quality and a job done right the first time.
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grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
39 posts
Dunno gettjatscrilla. I certainly don't have a grudge against designers. me loves them! Designers and developers are two roles in any decent team, just like the BA's and PM's. We all have our role to play and trying to shoehorn any of those into another role usually results in fail. In my experience I've found devs suck at design (myself included, and I've studied much of the theory on HCI and cognition at Uni!) and designers don't make good software developers (as in they don't understand software architecture etc).
My mini rant is about terminology. Web Designers, in my language, are people who design user experiences and interfaces. They don't worry about scalability and performance. That's left to the web developers and architects.
I think web designers can do a fine job of producing brochure sites, that can run of any CMS (Joomla, Umbraco, etc) but a team of web designers trying to produce a site such as this site, or web appications used in enterprise would result in fail. It's not a slight against the web designer in any way. I wouldn't hire a plumber to wire up my house...
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Crusher
Newcastle, New South Wales
672 posts
That just sounds like competition though Crusher.
Quoting a job based on a rate of $20 an hour by someone working from a bedroom with no overheads is not competition, its stupidity. It is unsustainable long term.
It is pretty well impossible for a professional web development business with offices and staff to deliver a business website using skilled graphic designer and developer, with client engagement meeting(s), design proof, revisions and go-live (dns changes, site deployment, etc) for under $2k. Thats the facts, and thats making sod all profit.
The trouble is, the fly by nighters do leave and there are plenty of other people desperate enough to take their place. The number of times I have been told at the client meeting "but I saw a company offering website + domain name for $199, why is your quote $2500".
For us, if the clients budget doesnt start at $2k we tell them we cant provide their website development. If we arent making money, theres no point doing the job.
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Superform
Netherlands
6466 posts
if your not making money as a dev/designer your working on the wrong sites...
move up to the big sites.. there is money pouring in as companies switch from traditional media spend to digital spend..
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kr0wb4r
Brisbane, Queensland
679 posts
At the end of the meeting we enquire about budget scope, and get told $1-2k is the maximum since thats what their web desiger told them it would cost.
Rofl I would've walked out, we do this kind of thing and if we knew them and they were repeat customers they might get it for $20k.
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Nerfington
Brisbane, Queensland
1696 posts
The trouble is, the fly by nighters do leave and there are plenty of other people desperate enough to take their place.
You begrudge people more desperate than you who prevent you from having a level of income you feel you deserve?
I used to contract for several dollars an hour when I first moved out of home, on 3d rendering/animation/some coding. My work was shit, though was made up for to an extent with passion - and I usually got bonuses due to that.
Don't get me wrong I agree that shitty work is horrible, I've done my small share of it in the past. But in the end the "real world" market sets the price, and that desperation is nothing to ever be begrudged. More-so thankful that you are not there...
/defensive rant
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2581 posts
It is pretty well impossible for a professional web development business with offices and staff to deliver a business website using skilled graphic designer and developer, with client engagement meeting(s), design proof, revisions and go-live (dns changes, site deployment, etc) for under $2k.
It don't doubt those costings, but it just comes back to the multiple pricing tiers, some clients will demand quality and are prepared to pay for it and other clients just want something out there at low cost and should expect a few corners to be cut.
Of course a professional web development business has higher overheads than someone working out of their backyard but at the same time they should be able to demonstrate to the client that their work is worth 10x the price because the other mob are no match on service and quality.
If they can, no problem and the starving html monkeys pick up the smaller fish.
If they can't, then that business might be overpaying their staff or going after the wrong market.
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HerbalLizard
Brisbane, Queensland
4749 posts
For the small amount of coding I do these days I use coda
Mostly use lamp as opposed to ms
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Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
1990 posts
Price is nothing, value is everything.
I will also say that the traditional idea of a 'web designer' and a 'web developer' is redundant these days.
To answer the OPs question first of all I think its great he wants to get his feet wet before his course starts. In my experience the only people who are succesful in this industry are those who are self-learners and have a true passion that has extended beyond their course requirements.
Most courses I've seen are pretty garbage. By the time something makes it into curriculum there's new important things to learn.
getthatscrilla the best way to start out is designing and building personal projects or sites for friends. Have a look at the Envato network sites:
http://psd.tutsplus.com
http://net.tutsplus.com
http://webdesign.tutsplus.com/
These have some great tutorials and primers.
Now after you've built a site like a blog - try running it. Get it hosted. Try to get traffic. Install Google Analytics. Experiment with your copy. Try to build a an opt-in email list. Get some free google adwords credit from a host gator account and run some ads.
You probably won't be incredibly successful but through this process you will find what areas you are most interested in eg design, development, marketing strategy, analytics, seo, conversion, PPC etc. You'll also learn how people use what you've created and this will make you become a better creator, faster.
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getthatscrilla
Melbourne, Victoria
45 posts
To answer the OPs question first of all I think its great he wants to get his feet wet before his course starts. In my experience the only people who are succesful in this industry are those who are self-learners and have a true passion that has extended beyond their course requirements.
thanks for this. this is what i had in mind as a way to get started. from what i know about the design world, having something to show and say 'this is what i have already done' is basically everything. as for being a 'web designer' im just using terms ive heard other people use. obviously im not in the industry yet and im trying to get a better grasp of it before i get into it at uni. to get a head start or figure out if this is even the direction i want to take.
It's not a slight against the web designer in any way. I wouldn't hire a plumber to wire up my house...
totally fair. but having an insight into what the other side is doing must be useful, if not essential? i mean, from what i hear design is flooded with aspiring students like me, so how do i get the upper hand in this particular industry?
for example, how does a web designer present their work to you? is it in a way that relates to your side of the job? and they must have to know what the limitations are what kind of costs will be involved, like how much time it would take for the coders etc.
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Superform
Netherlands
6478 posts
totally fair. but having an insight into what the other side is doing must be useful, if not essential?
no.. its about collaboration you get in a room together and discuss each others side.. you bring the wireframes and drawings.. and the devs say how they can make the magic happen
check this site and imagine a designer working out how to code it..
http://www.heineken.com/ie/YourHeineken.aspx
dont try and be a jack of all trades.. specialise
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2592 posts
In other news, Heineken bottles can be customised to a specific event or place. How awesome is that!?
It doesn't look like you can order from within Australia though, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. :(
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myWhiteWolf
Brisbane, Queensland
3075 posts
no.. its about collaboration you get in a room together and discuss each others side.. you bring the wireframes and drawings.
although its GREATLY beneficial to you if you understand the other side of it.
yes, the job will be done with collaboration, but you are much more likely to get a job designing websites if you know the basics of web development.
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Superform
Netherlands
6479 posts
dazhel we have only launched Your Heineken in Spain and Ireland so far.. however we haven't rolled out the platform to Australia yet (if i look at my planning board its due early next year) not sure yet if it will also have the Your Heineken app but i'll let you know if it does :)
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2599 posts
Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
1992 posts
no.. its about collaboration you get in a room together and discuss each others side.. you bring the wireframes and drawings.. and the devs say how they can make the magic happen
check this site and imagine a designer working out how to code it..
http://www.heineken.com/ie/YourHeineken.aspx
dont try and be a jack of all trades.. specialise
Disagree... This is why designers who aren't web-savvy get drawn to flash because its more WYSIWYG when dealing with a developer, at the expense of many of other more important things. You ofcourse want to specialise but understanding the other constraints and possibilities of what can be done is important.
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Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
17655 posts
Superform
Netherlands
6483 posts
actually nitro working like that only limits creativity..
we are currently working on a project that will be cutting edge and a web first, if it works it will will be insanely groundbreaking, in my wildest dreams i would never have thought it was technically possible, which is why someone without technical knowledge needed to come up with the idea.. its also a blend of technologies not all of which are in IT, so it would never have been thought of by an IT person, once the idea is out, the technical teams (IT/Other) take over and do what they can to make it happen technically.
the best tools for a designer are a pencil and paper and good idea.. most of the apps on our site started like that.. anything else is just fluff..
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Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
2608 posts
You're working on a web page where you click a button and 5 minutes later a courier with a frosty brew arrives on your doorstep aren't you Superform.
 Top stuff! :D |
d^
Melbourne, Victoria
485 posts
I've been more serious in learning web design/development since about July last year. Beforehand I did a double diploma at tafe, learnt the basics, like XHTML and some CSS as well as using Dreamweaver. I've been reading lots of books, watching and doing a lot of tutorials to pickup my skills.
I'm only starting my work small, doing small websites for friends and family, I really enjoy it. The problem I find is that you need to invest a lot of time into learning if you teach yourself, this is kind of difficult for me as I work 9-5 on a help desk. However learning what I have outside of work has done wonders for my day job as I can do more (we don't just do help desk work).
My suggestion to you would be to learn as much as you can. Start out by reading books, I happened to buy quite a few online for a lot cheaper than borders etc.
Aside from the links posted above you should definitely check out www.sitepoint.com. Also it's worth looking at www.noupe.com and probably www.smashingmagazine.com for tutorials and anything else. Another great site is www.alistapart.com |
grazer
Brisbane, Queensland
41 posts
d^, it's no different once you "know" web design. Like any other *cough* profession *cough*, you have a professional (ethical) responsibility to keep up to date with technology. That involves lots of reading and learning in your own time. It's great that you're doing it on top of your day job :) I only mention it for other people looking to get into the business. If you want to be *good* it takes a high level of commitment to professional development.
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Tork
South Australia
24 posts
hi,
im serious about becoming a web designer. so what should a start learning? im currently doing a design course but i want to get stuck into it this summer to give myself a head start.
so im wondering: what programs and/or mark up language should i start learning? also wheres a good place to buy a domain to muck around with so that i can get some practice actually getting my website up?
help much appreciated!
dude, learn your basic HTML, which u will from your courses, but PHP is a must. I recommend getting Dreamweaver, which is what I used. its a great tool and easy to use.
but why not learn for free? Just get a myspace or a blog or something and you can learn a bit from them,...
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paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
13595 posts
guys, he's fucking serious about becoming a web designer ok
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Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
1996 posts
actually nitro working like that only limits creativity..
we are currently working on a project that will be cutting edge and a web first, if it works it will will be insanely groundbreaking, in my wildest dreams i would never have thought it was technically possible, which is why someone without technical knowledge needed to come up with the idea.. its also a blend of technologies not all of which are in IT, so it would never have been thought of by an IT person, once the idea is out, the technical teams (IT/Other) take over and do what they can to make it happen technically.
the best tools for a designer are a pencil and paper and good idea.. most of the apps on our site started like that.. anything else is just fluff..
No I think this is the kind of thinking that makes many agencies produce stuff that sounded like a good idea but sucks once executed. A website is not a set canvas like a printed artwork. To design well for interactivity you also need to understand usability. You need to understand how different screen sizes and browsers can affect the experience. When you see demonstrations of things like HTML5 and it opens up your options creatively even more. You also know if something which was previously a pain in the ass for the developer are now a piece of cake.
The better you know the rules the better you can play the game.
For example, that heinekin site has been built for the lowest common denomenator (being screen resolution). Website in a box so to speak. Classic case of designer designed it, programmer built it but the designer and developer didn't have the conversation about how they can make it a more immersive full screen experience for all visitors. I haven't seen many big name flash sites that aren't built this way these days. There is good reason why we have seen the emergence of digital agencies.
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Superform
Netherlands
6497 posts
No I think this is the kind of thinking that makes many agencies produce stuff that sounded like a good idea but sucks once executed. A website is not a set canvas like a printed artwork. To design well for interactivity you also need to understand usability. You need to understand how different screen sizes and browsers can affect the experience. When you see demonstrations of things like HTML5 and it opens up your options creatively even more. You also know if something which was previously a pain in the ass for the developer are now a piece of cake.
This is all design stuff though.. and as a designer you just need to be told the limitations, this can be after you have designed.
As for Heineken it was designed by a designer then we created a usability matrix for all browsers and resolutions then decided on which resolutions and browsers would be pixel perfect and which would have limitations.. i could guarantee a designer is not going to know the technical limitations or 6+ browsers and 10+ different resolutions.
Also we have to cater to a certain computer user since we are targeting a global audience.. the scope of which goes beyond the average computer in the USA. These were all technical decisions which are fed back to the designers.
I'm not saying it doesn't help to know both sides of the fence, but know what direction you want to take and work towards that, rather then being a jack of all trades.
I guess also the smaller the agency you work for the more you need to know about everything.. the bigger the agency the more specialised you can become
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d^
Melbourne, Victoria
486 posts
d^, it's no different once you "know" web design. Like any other *cough* profession *cough*, you have a professional (ethical) responsibility to keep up to date with technology. That involves lots of reading and learning in your own time. It's great that you're doing it on top of your day job :) I only mention it for other people looking to get into the business. If you want to be *good* it takes a high level of commitment to professional development.
Couldn't agree more.
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