If vaccination is 'immunization' and it works why do you need boosters. When you acquire the disease naturally you don't need boosters you are naturally immunized. And if vaccination works why are they worried about catching the disease from non-vaccinated persons. The truth is vaccination doesn't immunize- it sentitizes-big difference. And check out the statistics of people who have had thesel childhood diseases. Were these people already immunized? You will be surprised at what you find? And ask the vaccination proponents to provide the statistical evidence that proves that vaccination does what is says it does. There is plenty medical evidence that show quite clearly the dangerous side effects that can occur in vaccination. Ask any Doctor if is he prepared to sign assuming any responsibility for any side effects occurring from the vaccination and you will be able to tell from their response as to whether you should vaccinate or not.
How has this managed to gain traction as an actual health debate in Australia?
I consider myself a smart person. I also have read a lot about links of vaccines to autism but the big drug companies suggest these links dont exist. Of course we can trust them to tell us cant we? Kind of like tobacco companies can be trusted to be honest if their products cause problems? Having little Johnny home from kindy because some unthoughtful person made an educated decision is nothing compared to dealing with a life long commitment to an autistic child. Trust me, I live it. NEVER will have children subjected to being lab rats again.
You might consider yourself a smart person, but I have a good idea where your kid's autism came from ...
I want to know why the drug companies & doctors refuse to make the All In One vaccination made available as separate vaccinations. I have a brother with autism who was developing quite fine until he had the vaccination done. As a result, I would never risk giving it (the 3 in 1) to any child I had in just case the vaccination did play a part..
Doesn't matter the country, people are stupid all around the world. That's how it gained traction.
Also "famous" people like Jenny McCarthy have come out saying vaccines caused her son to have autism and people want to believe what celebrities say even when they are stupid, wrong and ignorant.
Cause people (media) keep posting and linking it. For them it is a great story which will get hits/sales.
While I am generally for immunisation I can understand the people who do not want to risk unnecessary medical treatment.
Some of the side affects of immunisation are quite severe but then so are some of the affects of catching a disease because you weren't immunised. To me the primary difference is that as you chose to get your child immunised it is very emotional as you opted to do it, when it is a disease you catch you do not blame yourself (as much?)
I know someone whose 5 yr old daughter is completely blind due to an adverse reaction to one of the common immunisations, it has taken a very heavy toll for the whole family.
sc00bs, your body's immune system learns to recognise diseases and fight them (that's the only way that big creatures like us can even survive in a world of extremely tiny creatures which were here much longer than us, and evolve much faster than us). Inserting a dead version of the disease allows our immune system to train itself, and has been a large part of why people have stopped dying so horribly in recent generations.
Note that it doesn't work on everybody, however if you break down the disease's chance to spread by getting a high enough percentage of people, you attain "herd immunity". So people stopping vaccinating their kids is a problem for others beyond just themselves.
i read an article the other day where the judge is forcing the mother to get her kid immunised. the father wanted to immunise the kid but the mother was only doing homeopathy crap. there were so many comments in that article that were pro homeopathy it made me rage.
Maybe not giving babies injections is natures way of survival of the fittest. We didn't have these vaccines around hundreds of years ago and we did fine. Let's breed more so there's no more room on this planet.
Vaccinations don't contain drugs. (Do they?)last edited by thermite at 15:03:26 29/Nov/12
I wouldn't think that it would fall under the definition of drug.
i read an article the other day where the judge is forcing the mother to get her kid immunised. the father wanted to immunise the kid but the mother was only doing homeopathy crap. there were so many comments in that article that were pro homeopathy it made me rage.
Speaking of, James Randi gave a good summary of homoeopathy here - (probably skip to about 9:40 to skip some of his jokes)
Maybe not giving babies injections is natures way of survival of the fittest.
Do you brush your teeth and drink clean water? We have improved our fitness by developing ways to survive with our enormous brain, by using things such as xrays, knowledge of poisonous foods, and vaccines, which is all that any life does.
We didn't have these vaccines around hundreds of years ago and we did fine.
.... You sure about that? Have you seen the stats for deaths from disease before we learned to do vaccinations? What it's like in countries now that still have to put up with those nightmare diseases?
Maybe not giving babies injections is natures way of survival of the fittest. We didn't have these vaccines around hundreds of years ago and we did fine. Let's breed more so there's no more room on this planet.
Life expectancy.. Year.........Age 1850.........38.3 1860.........41.8 1870.........44.0 1880.........39.4 1890.........45.2 1900.........47.8 1998.........76.7
HRM. LETS GO WITH WHAT REV SAID. CAN'T WAIT TO DIE IN ABOUT 10 YEARS!
sadly we are seeing the return of things like diphtheria (something like 1 - 30 die) and shockingly polio is not wiped out like it should be, because some country's let theory's like "it will make your sterile" spread, and while the oral treatment is like 30cents to administer, it still has a small (and still decreasing) area of effect
TBH, while having a child with a disability is no doubt a big thing, I look at it as managing risks
the risk that my child may catch a preventable disease, and suffering a life long effect from that disease (and a certain chance of death) vs the chance that there may be a reaction
I think Ickus kinda hit on a good point, if your child catches a disease, you as a parent are unlikely to have had a direct hand in that cause, however, if you give your child something, and they react you have someone to blame (be that yourself, the doctor, or other person/company/government)
but then that raises other questions as well,
say you as a parent have done the (debatable) right thing, and little timmy has had all his shots, and you send him off to school, do you have an expectation that other parents have done the right thing? I mean should kids without the jab be allowed to go to school in that case?, (there are schools that ban nuts if a student has a nut allergy, and not having a shot means there is a chance that student may bring in a disease?)
if little timmy has a reaction, you get some support from government agency's, and hopefully all works out, but if little timmy gets sick due to other person not having had the jab, should that parent be liable?
as for autism, they dont know what causes it, they have found many links to things, life style, pollution, but no causes, hell, for all we know autism has been around in the same ratio in people for 1000's of years, it is just that a) it has become more noticeable b) is more able to be id'ed
The autism/vaccine link was one of many claims by a repeated fraudster, has been evaluated by professional scientists many times to try to calm people down, and each time has been found to have absolutely no observable relation.
Ask any Doctor if is he prepared to sign assuming any responsibility for any side effects occurring from the vaccination and you will be able to tell from their response as to whether you should vaccinate or not.
It's kind of like asking a mechanic to assume any responsibility if you crash your car after he does an oil service.
I say let the parents decide. Children do pay for their fathers sin. (be it autism or meningococcal C - comes down to luck really)
it did have a little traction when the lancet published a paper,
the paper has since retracted the paper,
(fyi, the New york times once said that rockets wouldn't work in space, it was after the apollo mission that they retracted that statement. that little pearl of a statement was used to discredit the moon landings)
(fyi, the New york times once said that rockets wouldn't work in space, it was after the apollo mission that they retracted that statement. that little pearl of a statement was used to discredit the moon landings)
I'm not understanding your point. Journalists were wrong about something once? Stop the presses, the witchdoctor no longer needs to show their working?
HRM. LETS GO WITH WHAT REV SAID. CAN'T WAIT TO DIE IN ABOUT 10 YEARS!
You do realize that we're over-populating the world faster than it can sustain us? I don't mind because I'll be dead before that happens but all you people who are pumping out kids should prolly think about it. I know it's prolly fun and all having them and you can talk to you workmates about how little Timmy shat his pant today and it was so cute. LOL at people who think we can build a space ship and move to another planet. Just lol.
I'm not understanding your point. Journalists were wrong about something once? Stop the presses, the witchdoctor no longer needs to show their working?
no, my argment is that people are using outdated information to reinforce an argument
ie, the moon landings are fact, blah blah blah, see, even the new york times said it couldn't be done with rockets, it is a conspiracy!!
same goes with the lancet paper, (the lancet being very respectable), and all people really have to do is claim a cover up, (ie, they knew the truth 20 years ago, and big drug companies have paid doctors to discredit this, "it is time we spread the truth about this")
it isn't that people published mistakes, it is that people use erroneous, or facts that were discredit at the time or later to support their reasoning
I cant fathom how pumping drugs into a perfectly healthy new born kid is good for them/ or their immune system.
Whooping cough will kill an infant, cure ? no not really. Treatment if started early can work. But in infants they die of starvation or sleep depravation. And it has fuck all to do with Darwin's theory.
The solution ? Vaccination, and it needs boosters, but is effective. The baby won't be vaccinated until 6 months, but if every one around them is vaccinated then the kid won't be exposed to it...
I say let the parents decide. Children do pay for their fathers sin. (be it autism or meningococcal C - comes down to luck really)
To be truly effective a certain percentage of the population need to be vaccinated (in part because not all vaccines are 100% effective, and because different people will have different sets of vaccinations).
And unfortunately a dumb parent can kill the children of non-dumb parents.
So unless the non-vaccinated people all go live in unvaccinated land (normally called Africa) they should be getting their shots.
If the child who was sick had been vaccinated, or if the mum had been up to date on their vaccinations. There would have been no problem.
Anyone that thinks vaccines are a bad idea check out the following diseases:
Rubella, specifically congenital rubella syndrome.
Polio.
Pertussis (whooping cough)
Diptheria
All caused thousands of deaths a year in western society ie. US, UK and Australia (post war even).
Even Measles can cause death and used to.
Most of you won't even know what a lot of those diseases are with out looking them up..
This is a polio ward photo from 1952 ... yeah they had special wards for them because it was that common... where is the nearest polio ward these days (probably some horrible little tin pot nation that has no vaccinations)? BTW the treatment if a kid got polio was to lock them up in an iron lung (sounds pretty fun).
Anyone with even the smallest amount of intelligence (I rekon a grade 3 reading level should be ample) will be able to spend about 15 minutes looking at the data / history and go "WTF everyone should be immunised".
Tiny unproven chance of Autism vs. proven real chance of death ? really ? it's even a discussion ?
Most of you won't even know what a lot of those diseases are with out looking them up.. This is a polio ward photo from 1952 ... yeah they had special wards for them because it was that common... where is the nearest polio ward these days (probably some horrible little tin pot nation that has no vaccinations)? BTW the treatment if a kid got polio was to lock them up in an iron lung (sounds pretty fun).
Anyone with even the smallest amount of intelligence (I rekon a grade 3 reading level should be ample) will be able to spend about 15 minutes looking at the data / history and go "WTF everyone should be immunised".
Tiny unproven chance of Autism vs. proven real chance of death ? really ? it's even a discussion ?
I have all my kids immunised, just had my 4yr old done again a couple of weeks ago. My son has Aspergers (a form of autism) but I have not for one minute thought it could or would be a result of immunisation, to me that is just ridiculous. Immunisation basically introduces a mild form of the disease to the body to allow it to recognise and build immunity to it......if that caused a kid to become autistic then surely letting the kid just get the disease is going to turn them full retard.
I do feel sorry for people that are dealing with kids with autism, but I do feel these people are just looking for something to blame as to why their kid isn't "normal", cause lets face it, when people see a severely autistic kid we all just think, bad genetics and no one wants to believe that their kid is messed up because of something we passed onto them.
Heard some silly bitch on the radio the other day who decided not to immunise one of her kids say "I've checked out the scientific information, and the unscientific information on youtube and the internet"...
I can't believe this thread, do none of you realise just how dangerous immunisation is? Not only is it causing weird reactions in children, but it's also preventing plagues and therefore leaving it to natural disasters to cull the population. Do you have no respect for our parent planet?
You know what is much more likely to have links to Autism then vaccinations? Food Aditivies?
There are many documented cases of ASD children returning to normal opperating conditions when several additives/preservitives are removed from the diet.
These people that are against vaccinations should certainly be against all added flavours/colours/preservitives. If they are not, then call them out for simply jumping onto a bandwagon.
Instead of getting angry at these people, direct their attentions to other more likely causes so they can leave vaccinations alone.
edit:
.if that caused a kid to become autistic then surely letting the kid just get the disease is going to turn them full retard.
The idea is that preservitives and other stuff in the vacciantions cause autism, not the actual disease bit which I have forgotton what it is called.
didn't read entire thread, too long, too tired. Dude on the radio the other day had his kid immunized, kid died the next day.
I never had any vaccines when I was a kid. I ate dirt, plants, dog shit, cat shit, mice, rats, fish, wood, metal, whatever the hell else kids eat and I'm fine. Too much molly coddling going on in the world today, no wonder so many people are sick and allergic to stuff, parents bundle their kids up in cotton wool, don't bother breast feeding, and what do you know, world's gone to hell.
didn't read entire thread, too long, too tired. Dude on the radio the other day had his kid immunized, kid died the next day.I never had any vaccines when I was a kid. I ate dirt, plants, dog shit, cat shit, mice, rats, fish, wood, metal, whatever the hell else kids eat and I'm fine. Too much molly coddling going on in the world today, no wonder so many people are sick and allergic to stuff, parents bundle their kids up in cotton wool, don't bother breast feeding, and what do you know, world's gone to hell.
and this is how you got that handle, you have had whoop(ing) cough since
didn't read entire thread, too long, too tired. Dude on the radio the other day had his kid immunized, kid died the next day.
And one person drank water and then got cancer, we better all stop drinking water. Linking events like that is called a superstition, and is what really stupid animals do to our amusement. There are known potential side effects of vaccines, which are very rare and manageable.
I never had any vaccines when I was a kid. I ate dirt, plants, dog shit, cat shit, mice, rats, fish, wood, metal, whatever the hell else kids eat and I'm fine.
How would you get a virus evolved for human biology from any of those things? You only risked the chance of starting the next inter-species virus jump such as bird flu, swine flu, AIDS, etc, but it's super unlikely.
Too much molly coddling going on in the world today, no wonder so many people are sick and allergic to stuff, parents bundle their kids up in cotton wool, don't bother breast feeding, and what do you know, world's gone to hell.
From above - Life expectancy.. Year.........Age 1850.........38.3 1860.........41.8 1870.........44.0 1880.........39.4 1890.........45.2 1900.........47.8 1998.........76.7
He is also lucky that other people around him had their kids vaccinated so he had a lower chance of getting a nasty, easily preventable disease.
I've been around people with chicken pox, etc, never actually got it myself. My immune system is just so fucking supercharged with all the dirt and plants I ate as a kid.
and this is how you got that handle, you have had whoop(ing) cough since
Pretty sure cigarettes are responsible for my cough.
Whoop, the only way that your immune system would work against an individual disease is if you've been exposed to it already (i.e. survived a sickness, or vaccination) or have a slight genetic difference which the disease wasn't adapted to handle ("advantage"). Of course you might just not have contracted it.
There should be a requirement to be able to pass a highschool science exam before being allowed to have kids, since they pose a threat to everybody else if not raised intelligently.
you know, just because you didn't develop visable pox, doesn't mean you didnt catch it
I mean, for all we know, that mouse shit and dirt just covered it up
chicken pox is also a poor example, it isn't over all that big a pain, (till you get shingles, then I will laugh muh arse off)
now, whooping cough (jokes aside) kills, pure and simple, getting the vaccine doesn't mean you'll never get it, but it make the effects less, and the chance of spreading it less likely (I got whooping cough sometime back, thanks to someones whos parents cared as much as yours) I was very ill, and was on an inhaler for 3 months, she was in hospital for 3 weeks, and was vastly sicker than me, for much much longer
prior to that, never had chicken pox, measles or the like
I've never had any single disease either Whoop, however your superstitious reasoning as to why falls apart on this data point given that I spent most of my childhood reading or programming or internetting and whatnot.
Immunisation basically introduces a mild form of the disease to the body to allow it to recognise and build immunity to it
Depends on the vaccination but its usually the virus itself just dead.
I see a lot of 'hey fine don't immunise your kid you just don't get healthcare for them if they get sick'. Not only is it unfair to the kid, its also unfair to everyone else. Some kids CAN'T be vaccinated, or the vaccine doesn't work on them, or they are immunosuppressed because of treatments for shitty diseases like cancer, or the vaccine is just not 100% proof, or the vaccine is only appropriate at a certain age (like whooping cough at 6 months).
Scariest part of my life was the first 6 months of my kid's lives. Knowing that ignorant cockstains refused vaccinations because Jenny McCarthy's kid has autism (and thereby put MY kid at risk) was rage-inducing shit. My little brother nearly died of measles pre-vaccine, and it should be eradicated in Australia, but we're still getting outbreaks for no fucking good reason.
Vaccines are medically proven to work, people are stupid. Parents that don't vaccinate their kids which results in the kids death due to said diseases should be tried for 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.
Obes's list didn't mention Small Pox, which was a HUGE killer, and the near eradication of it thanks to vaccines was heralded as victory for the world.
If you're citing population growth stats, check out the massive dip around the 14th century, guess what that was, the black death! (They didn't have vaccinations back then!)
Obes's list didn't mention Small Pox, which was a HUGE killer, and the near eradication of it thanks to vaccines was heralded as victory for the world.
Minor point but smallpox (which is a disease) was eradicated - the virus only exists now in laboratories and should be made extinct but fuckwits decided not to. We don't even immunise for it anymore.
This is smallpox:
It killed 300-500 million people in the 20th century. Fuck that shit. Immunise your kids.
So rather than saying what other people have said over again, i'm just gonna quote for truth
Anyone with even the smallest amount of intelligence (I rekon a grade 3 reading level should be ample) will be able to spend about 15 minutes looking at the data / history and go "WTF everyone should be immunised".
yup.
im quite often surprised at seemingly intelligent friends who will surprisingly drop the anti vaccination stand out of the blue.
I've never had any single disease either Whoop, however your superstitious reasoning as to why falls apart on this data point given that I spent most of my childhood reading or programming or internetting and whatnot.
so you spent most of your life shut away with no contact from others and that's why you never get sick? CALL THE PRESSES.
Whereas I, spent my entire youth outdoors, playing in sand, mud, gravel, climbing trees, swimming in public pools, mixing with other children in the playground.
thanks to someones whos parents cared as much as yours)
My parents cared a lot, they're also not a bunch of stuck up tightwads who walk around with hand sanitizer because some idiot on TV tells them to.
Know why we have super bugs that are resistant to vaccines? Because too many weaklings use too much hand sanitizer. The bugs are getting vaccinated against our vaccines by all you whiney little girls and your needles.
Know why we have super bugs that are resistant to vaccines? Because too many weaklings use too much hand sanitizer. The bugs are getting vaccinated against our vaccines by all you whiney little girls and your needles.
What the fuck is this shit. You be channeling the stupid pretty deep today, mon.
It's hard to tell through all the waves of WTF, but I think you're confusing the overuse of antibiotics with vaccination, which are quite different issues. Vaccination is the single greatest medical advancement, ever.
im quite often surprised at seemingly intelligent friends who will surprisingly drop the anti vaccination stand out of the blue.
yeah, it's cause they're actually not intelligent. But some people seem to think taking an anti-mainstream view makes them smarter than everyone else because everyone else is just a sheep.
I don't get the OP... am I missing something here?
no kid get's into my wife's Kindy unless they can provide certed documentation proving the child has had all their shots. I don't know if that's required by law, though it sure as shit is required by the insurance company that covers her ass.
is this not the same for public and private schools?
How has this managed to gain traction as an actual health debate in Australia?
They withhold baby bonus money's and Other payments if you don't immunise, so the crazies think they are hard done by for putting other parents children in potential danger.
(Partner 22 weeks pregnant, we will be immunising, this is both a community benefit and our child's)
Penalise the parants = hurt the kid.
Thisnt like Circumcision, your child can suffer horribly and pregnant women are also at risk hence why the Father took action, Champion Dad.
Id like to hear the anti-vac argument.
I was reading a while back about the claim that Vaccinations didnt work because the rates for the vaccinated illnesses were already falling rapidly ?
Immunisation has been around since Roman time AFAIK. They would get an infected person and then smear puss and whatever from them, into an open cut on your body. Same idea just a lot messy and icky.
My wife is one of the crazies and the doctor wouldn't immunise unless both parents consented. Eventually she came to her senses only to have a recall on some vaccinations a couple of weeks back. Stupid media undid months of arguments.
What the fuck is this shit. You be channeling the stupid pretty deep today, mon.It's hard to tell through all the waves of WTF, but I think you're confusing the overuse of antibiotics with vaccination, which are quite different issues. Vaccination is the single greatest medical advancement, ever.
summed up very well hoggy,
really glad i went to bed when i did,
whoop, you are trolling or stupider than i thought
I thought there'd been some small pox outbreaks since the eradication but research reveals they were incorrectly cited as small pox and turned out to be other diseases.
Is there any actual evidence supporting the Autism link?
I'd also be inclined to think the plethora of preservatives and chemicals present in modern processed food is more to blame.
i can't believe the huge amount of dumb in this thread. these same people will take the piss out of religion on the inhale and exhale the value of not getting vaccinated with a look of smug superiority. i fucking hate you.
i can't believe the huge amount of dumb in this thread. these same people will take the piss out of religion on the inhale and exhale the value of not getting vaccinated with a look of smug superiority. i fucking hate you.
When I go back in time I'll be inoculating myself with cowpox, then I'll proclaim God is protecting me and help people with Smallpox and get phat loots from the Churches. Win.
The idea is that preservatives and other stuff in the vaccinations cause autism, not the actual disease bit which I have forgotten what it is called.
I think it was Ethyl-mercury (which is in Thiomersol - a common preservative for multi-shots I believe) that everyone was complaining about.
The funny thing is I'm fairly sure that the vaccine everyone was up in arms about didn't actually have any of the preservatives they were claiming caused autism because it had been stopped due to concerns about not being studied enough in children in the early 90's, iirc.
So basically, the whole thing started over someone looking at the internet, seeing old information that said something about mercury, they went "hey, that thur mercury stuff is poison! Oh shit, my kid's retarded!" and the world's IQ dropped a few points.
I was reading a while back about the claim that Vaccinations didnt work because the rates for the vaccinated illnesses were already falling rapidly ?
Would someone like to address that ?
I don't think I can even read that without my brain bleeding a little, let alone try and understand how someone can be that stupid for real-real and not for play-play.
When I go back in time I'll be inoculating myself with cowpox, then I'll proclaim God is protecting me and help people with Smallpox and get phat loots from the Churches. Win.
Until I relise there is no internet.
I found out a while ago from my grandmother that a great great (however many it was) grandfather etc was "crucial to helping Edward Jenner discover the smallpox vaccine".
I thought this was pretty cool until I found out that what it meant was, Edward Jenner grabbed my ancestor off the street and jabbed him with a needle, saying what amounted to, "hey kid, if you get sick, let me know".
Washing hands between seeing Patients is the greatest medical breakthrough.
Prolly explains a fall in the transmission of a lot of illnesses, most likely childhood illnesses too.
Washing hands between seeing Patients is the greatest medical breakthrough. Prolly explains a fall in the transmission of a lot of illnesses, most likely childhood illnesses too.
Poor guy died in an asylum He didnt know why it worked and so the Medical fraternity ignored him.
People take these things to mean that every nutjob with a claim is now credible (and there are infinite), when the mistake here was that proper science by modern definitions wasn't being performed (testable trials), and this is part of why we moved to modern evidence-based medicine, as opposed to homoeopathy style medicine, which is specifically the type of supernatural thinking that screwed this guy. They weren't scientists or doctors by today's definition.
Washing hands between seeing Patients is the greatest medical breakthrough.
Nope.
Consider the impact of the eradication of smallpox. This is a disease that afflicted humans for about 12,000 years. In the 18th century it was killing 400k europeans per year, scaling to hundreds of millions in the 20th century. It killed 80% of infected children. This is a cunt of a disease.
The disease is now gone, with a bit of wisdom forever thanks solely to vaccination. Our civilisation can collapse, our knowledge fail, we can return to hunting and gathering, forget all about hand washing, and smallpox won't get anyone. Smallpox vaccination has saved millions and the gift will save billions over the life of the species come what may.
Hand washing is super, but it's got nothing on vaccination.
Nope.Consider the impact of the eradication of smallpox.
Consider the fact that in hospitals in the early 1800's 1/6 births would kill the mother and the baby. This was because doctors weren't washing their hands.
This was before germ theory existed and they described it as transference of particulates.
edit: i'm working on memory, and obviously i can't remember how much of the population gave birth at home or with midwifes instead of going to hospitals.. but either way there's been some pretty big life savings due to very simple precautionary things. Like washing hands, like vaccinating a populous
People take these things to mean that every nutjob with a claim is now credible (and there are infinite), when the mistake here was that proper science by modern definitions wasn't being performed (testable trials), and this is part of why we moved to modern evidence-based medicine, as opposed to homoeopathy style medicine, which is specifically the type of supernatural thinking that screwed this guy. They weren't scientists or doctors by today's definition.
Not really, the handwashing guy actually did present reasonable evidence, but was unable to explain it himself. It wouldn't have mattered how many tests and trials were conducted, because they still wouldn't have gotten to the underlying cause(germs). The same is still true in today's scientific environment.
Homeopathy cant present any evidence of the effectiveness of their medications, let alone explain the underlying reasons that explain why it works. You might have had more capacity to fabricate research back in the day, but ideas without evidence would've been shredded just as easily back then as we do now.
Its also a bit rough to say that they weren't scientists or doctors by today's definition. The peer reviewed journal existed then and it exists now, and these are still the sources of the most robust scientific debate. You can still find a fair share of crackpots in the pages, and there are still many controversial ideas that are up for discussion. If you go back and read some of the historic journals you can see that the process of evidence based scientific understanding was basically the same, its just that we have a lot more data these days.
Consider the fact that in hospitals in the early 1800's 1/6 births would kill the mother and the baby. This was because doctors weren't washing their hands.This was before germ theory existed and they described it as transference of particulates.edit: i'm working on memory, and obviously i can't remember how much of the population gave birth at home or with midwifes instead of going to hospitals.. but either way there's been some pretty big life savings due to very simple precautionary things. Like washing hands, like vaccinating a populous
that 1/6 was for doctor delivered babys, the death rate was much lower for at home births, and births by midwifes,
the reason the figure was so high for doctors was due in part because they would come from the morgue fresh from learning about some dead persons body, and then help deliver a baby, still covered in gunk from the day,
You are being contrary because it's obes or because are misguided in the belief that the only way to effect a medical outcome is via medical intervention.
eg. The cholera pandemics ... the cure ? ... sewage and clean water
that 1/6 was for doctor delivered babys, the death rate was much lower for at home births, and births by midwifes, the reason the figure was so high for doctors was due in part because they would come from the morgue fresh from learning about some dead persons body, and then help deliver a baby, still covered in gunk from the day,
Yes, i also remember reading this in like one of those freakonomics books.
Not really, the handwashing guy actually did present reasonable evidence, but was unable to explain it himself.
Yes, and after that was why we now use evidence-based medicine, rather than magic narrative (explanation) based. "Medicine" prior to that was heavily entrenched in earth/air/fire/water theology, it made use of things such as duck liver solutions just as modern homoeopathy does.
It wouldn't have mattered how many tests and trials were conducted, because they still wouldn't have gotten to the underlying cause(germs). The same is still true in today's scientific environment.
We don't understand the underlying cause of gravity, but modern science works on the observable, measurable, and testable evidence.
Homeopathy cant present any evidence of the effectiveness of their medications, let alone explain the underlying reasons that explain why it works.
Exactly, thus why those old 'doctors' weren't doctors by today's definition, they were evidence-free magic quacks like homoeopaths are today.
Its also a bit rough to say that they weren't scientists or doctors by today's definition. The peer reviewed journal existed then and it exists now
I'm sure that theologians have peer reviewed journals, but it doesn't make them scientists by today's standards though, where the standard is evidenced based.
We didn't have these vaccines around hundreds of years ago and we did fine.
What? Just... what?!
The average life span has skyrocketed thanks to medicinal breakthroughs which is still in its infancy.
The human body was not designed to be living to 80-100+ years old. Those sorts of ages would be rare hundreds years ago if not unheard of.
Even something as simple good dental hygiene can expand life expectancy. Terrible and rotting/infected teeth can (and not uncommonly) lead to spinal infection and left untreated that can be debilitating and lethal.
That's just an example that people would overlook or take for granted.
The average life span has skyrocketed thanks to medicinal breakthroughs which is still in its infancy.
Even something as simple good dental hygiene can expand life expectancy. Terrible and rotting/infected teeth can (and not uncommonly) lead to spinal infection and left untreated that can be debilitating and lethal.
That's just an example that people would overlook or take for granted.
yes mephz, i know how a comment makes you rage so hard that you come in late, but i already responded to that with
Life expectancy.. Year.........Age 1850.........38.3 1860.........41.8 1870.........44.0 1880.........39.4 1890.........45.2 1900.........47.8 1998.........76.7
This is what happens when too many people dont vaccinate their kids:
Three babies died from whooping cough in October as one of the worst outbreaks of the disease in decades continues, Health Protection Agency figures for England and Wales show.
It brings the number of deaths in newborns, who are most at risk of fatal complications, to 13 this year.
There were 1,614 infections last month, bringing the total to 7,728 this year.
Only real thing I could find in regards to any sort of credence on the biomedical, would be if people had something wrong say for example with someone's immune system may not like dead bacteria.
If you have immune problems in the first place, well you might not know about it. But then again you might find out about it. In which case there might be other factors like having adverse reactions to penicillin or things of that nature. You immune system might need an immune booster.
As for Jenny McCarthy. That pandora's box of cluster fuck, should stay closed.
Could probably keep ongoing, quite possibly forever.
No need, most people have already pretty much just agreed that it's due to a FAR wider reach of the definition of "Autism" in recent years, along with better understanding of what to look for in young children.
It's as if previously, humans were not being included in the count of "animals" on the planet. If the definition suddenly includes humans, then there's a 7 billion rise in the number of animals. Doesn't mean anything beyond that.
Where are all the ethical dilemma type thought experiments that were trotted out in the last abortion thread though? Something about other people having no right to demand i do such and such to my body, even it means certain death for them otherwise...? Doesn't that line of reasoning put herd immunity based arguments on shaky moral grounds? As it seems with everything these days, the issue seems to have become a polarised, trivialised parody of a discussion. You're either an anti-science hippy loon, or a mindless pharmastooge lemming. Every vaccine is different, and each should be considered individually. The fact that most vaccines are effective and prevent a lot more death and suffering than they cause does not mean they all do, so I consider the framing of either pro or anti vax to be unhelpful if not outright dishonest. The 18 month varicella vaccine seems border line to me, particularly with the possibility of a rise in shingles as a consequence. Chickenpox does kill a small number of infants every year though, but the vaccine would also. It is very hard to get a number that attempts to quantify your relative risks on a per vaccine basis given your known risk factors.
Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the U.S., with typically 10,500–13,000 hospital admissions, and 100–150 deaths each year.[1][2] Ten years after the vaccine was recommended in the U.S., the CDC reported as much as a 90% drop in chicken pox cases, a varicella-related hospital admission decline of 71%[1] and a 97% drop in chicken pox deaths among those under 20.[8]
You guys are bad at trolling. We all know he is a complete drongo but the trick is to get him to articulate that himself by asking him questions and then reading his hilarious answers. You save the links for afterwards once he has ran out of froth.
whether or not a woman has an abortion is of zero direct consequence to me or society.
failing to vaccinate your children directly increases rates of preventable disease and hence is a burden on society.
whether or not a woman has an abortion is of zero direct consequence to me or society.
Only insofar as you exclude the unborn baby as being a member of society. Moreover, I was not arguing for or against whether or not to so include the unborn, but rather referencing a prior thread where a so-named thought experiment was run purporting to show that even if one did consider the unborn a human with rights, then the mother still had no moral obligation towards the child with respect to its use of her body for its survival. My pointing it out was more to show the hypocrisy of some that seemed to countenance such an argument, yet at the same time invoking some duty to vaccinate out of moral obligation to others.
But back to the point at hand:
reload, I see you've copied and pasted a paragraph or two from wikipedia, well done. One has to wonder though, whether or not you actually read the article you and the wiki entry link to. Here, I'll paste in the results summary for you:
Results VAERS received 6574 case reports of adverse events in recipients of varicella vaccine, a rate of 67.5 reports per 100,000 doses sold. Approximately 4% of reports described serious adverse events, including 14 deaths. The most frequently reported adverse events were rashes, possible vaccine failures, and injection site reactions. Misinterpretation of varicella serology after vaccination appeared to account for 17% of reports of possible vaccine failures. Among 251 patients with herpes zoster, 14 had the vaccine strain of varicella zoster virus (VZV), while 12 had the wild-type virus. None of 30 anaphylaxis cases was fatal. An immunodeficient patient with pneumonia had the vaccine strain of VZV in a lung biopsy. Pregnant women occasionally received varicella vaccine through confusion with varicella zoster immunoglobulin. Although the role of varicella vaccine remained unproven in most serious adverse event reports, there were a few positive rechallenge reports and consistency of many cases with syndromes recognized as complications of natural varicella.
Conclusion Most of the reported adverse events associated with varicella vaccine are minor, and serious risks appear to be rare. We could not confirm a vaccine etiology for most of the reported serious events; several will require further study to clarify whether varicella vaccine plays a role. Education is needed to ensure appropriate use of varicella serologic assays and to eliminate confusion between varicella vaccine and varicella zoster immunoglobulin
Hmm, that doesn't quite give the impression wiki seems to give does it! The weaselly language in the wikipedia text has done its job well. I suggest you read the article you cite. On the whole as I already know, the vaccine is relatively safe but yes there have been deaths following its administration and it cannot be said definitively either way whether or not the varicella vaccine was the proximate cause.
But my original point stands, consider, if you will, this link. It purports to show (I will always remain sceptical of modelled projections for into the future) that on a timescale of 65 years, blanket chickenpox vacction at 18 months will result in an increase of shingles cases that results in a net negative health benefit.
Hence my original point. I don't believe vaccination is some sort of all or nothing proposition, where as soon as a vaccine is released onto the market it should be immediately added to the schedule. The more borderline the benefit to both the individual and the wider community I also believe the more it becomes a decision for the individual (or parents usually) as they will assess the risks and benefits for themselves.
the portion that you posted states there were only 6574 cases of adverse events associated with the vaccine in almost ten million dose. of this only 14 were deaths. the article was investigating cases of death or serious side effects the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System had documented. it was not, as you seem to be suggesting, reporting those VAERS figures. the deaths involved were concluded by the author to have had other medical conditions involved or require further investigation due to being inconclusive. there wasn't a single case where a perfectly healthy child was found to have died as a result of the vaccine.
I don't think that is painting any different or rosier a picture than that on the wikipedia page.
further, the article you referenced has been cited in more recent articles including the first result
We found no evidence of a relationship between herpes zoster and exposure to VZV in the previous 10 years. We also observed that exposure to VZV in our population was relatively low, a likely consequence of an effective varicella vaccination program that began in the United States more than 10 years ago.5 A national survey of persons aged 65 years and older similarly reported a low exposure rate and no protection against self-reported zoster.18
so aside from the fact that you didn't actually read the wikipedia cited article any more closely than you claimed I had, you then followed with your own article which only presents a theoretical model predicting an outcome which has since been proven otherwise.
the portion that you posted states there were only 6574 cases of adverse events associated with the vaccine in almost ten million dose. of this only 14 were deaths. the article was investigating cases of death or serious side effects the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System had documented.
So far so good, congratulations on being able to read.
it was not, as you seem to be suggesting, reporting those VAERS figures.
What? This sentence doesn't make sense.
the deaths involved were concluded by the author to have had other medical conditions involved or require further investigation due to being inconclusive.
Which is precisely what I said, I'm sorry you failed to understand this.
there wasn't a single case where a perfectly healthy child was found to have died as a result of the vaccine.
Wait, now you're shifting the goal posts to perfectly healthy children that die (solely?) because of receiving the vaccine?
I don't think that is painting any different or rosier a picture than that on the wikipedia page.
No it's not a rosier picture than that on wikipedia I agree, it's quite a bit not rosier, thanks for agreeing.
further, the article you referenced has been cited in more recent articles including the first result
We found no evidence of a relationship between herpes zoster and exposure to VZV in the previous 10 years. We also observed that exposure to VZV in our population was relatively low, a likely consequence of an effective varicella vaccination program that began in the United States more than 10 years ago.5 A national survey of persons aged 65 years and older similarly reported a low exposure rate and no protection against self-reported zoster.18
It's promising that there may be no link but they didn't just simply model up a scenario of increased shingles for no reason at all. This study prompting the projection, so we have two studies that reached different conclusions.
so aside from the fact that you didn't actually read the wikipedia cited article any more closely than you claimed I had, you then followed with your own article which only presents a theoretical model predicting an outcome which has since been proven otherwise.
Nonsense, unlike you I actually read it and also unlike you I actually understood it.
well done fuckwit
There there, if you stop just re-posting wiki articles you won't have to feel stupid so much.
You guys are bad at trolling. We all know he is a complete drongo but the trick is to get him to articulate that himself by asking him questions and then reading his hilarious answers. You save the links for afterwards once he has ran out of froth.
Maybe not giving babies injections is natures way of survival of the fittest. We didn't have these vaccines around hundreds of years ago and we did fine. Let's breed more so there's no more room on this planet.
Well no we weren't fine dude hundred of years ago the world pop was shit because people got sick and died these vaccinations work so well that the world is now over populated and we have reduced deaths of these common ailments.
I wish all these dumb asses who read crap on the internet would all go to an island and live away from the rest of us and see how well they fair with epidemics etc...
Its just stupid and seriously what an ignorant comment... The average life span a hundred years ago was sweet f*ck all dumb ass.
Well no we weren't fine dude hundred of years ago the world pop was shit because people got sick and died these vaccinations work so well that the world is now over populated and we have reduced deaths of these common ailments.
I wish all these dumb asses who read crap on the internet would all go to an island and live away from the rest of us and see how well they fair with epidemics etc...
Its just stupid and seriously what an ignorant comment... The average life span a hundred years ago was sweet f*ck all dumb ass.
You sure showed all those dumb asses with your well thought out and clearly articulated prose. jolly good show.
A CONTROVERSIAL anti-vaccination lobby group has been slapped with an order to change its misleading name or be shut down.
The NSW Office of Fair Trading doorstopped the home of Australian Vaccination Network president Meryl Dorey yesterday with a letter of action, labelling the network's name misleading and a detriment to the community.
Countered by something largely negative... and quite possibly born of the anti-immunisation bullshit spread by rubbish people.
Gunmen in Pakistan have shot dead six health workers associated with an anti-polio campaign in a string of attacks.
It was not clear who was behind the shootings in the southern city of Karachi and northern city of Peshawar on Tuesday, but Taliban fighters have repeatedly denounced the anti-polio campaign as a "Western plot".
PM
WWW
