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ANZ bank fees class action
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
11646 posts
Someone explain this news item to me, because I don't get it.

There is a class action against ANZ because of the fees they are charging.

Some of the fees have been seen to be 'excessive' by the courts and could be illegal.

The part I don't get is there are other banks. Why not just bank with those instead? There is enough competition in this market place, surely, that banks should be able to charge whatever fees they want.
02:35pm 05/12/11 Permalink
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02:35pm 05/12/11 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
1735 posts
i thought it was also some overcharging on some fees or something????,

I know this have been ongoing for two or so years
02:37pm 05/12/11 Permalink
HerbalLizard
Brisbane, Queensland
5260 posts
More than likely its a test case. Why hit all the thieving fucks at once rather hit one then its open season on the others. Or at least that's how I see it
02:44pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
11647 posts
But who is able to say a fee is 'excessive'?

I mean, I had $30 of fees from overdue library books once. Maybe we need to launch a class action against libraries as well.
02:46pm 05/12/11 Permalink
kr0wb4r
Brisbane, Queensland
1068 posts
I'm with ANZ and don't get charged any fees ever.
02:48pm 05/12/11 Permalink
mission
Brisbane, Queensland
8119 posts
I think it's something like:

'The fine or charge should reasonably represent the cost incurred by the company'

Banks shouldn't be in the business of making profits on fines and charges (other than charges that you sign up for like account keeping fees etc).

Also, banks have the ability to stop any transactions that take your account in the red, but they let that slide, as a 'convenience' to you, and then charge you inappropriate rates for it.



last edited by mission at 14:54:01 05/Dec/11
02:51pm 05/12/11 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
2277 posts
Some of the fees have been seen to be 'excessive' by the courts and could be illegal.

The part I don't get is there are other banks. Why not just bank with those instead?
Competition doesn't excuse illegal behaviour.
02:58pm 05/12/11 Permalink
taggs
5813 posts
But who is able to say a fee is 'excessive'?


without knowing anything about the specifics of the case or the relevant legislation i'd hazard a guess that whether the fee is 'excessive' or not would be decided on the amount of the fee relative to the economic harm the event that caused the application of the fee caused the bank.

e.g. if on average a late payment from a customer cost a bank $10 (foregone interest, admin costs, etc) and the late payment fee was $50 then it could possibly be ruled excessive.

however, i am not a lawyer and this post is purely speculation.

paging fade for a legal consult!
02:59pm 05/12/11 Permalink
mission
Brisbane, Queensland
8121 posts
yeah taggs said what I was trying to say, only better :)
03:01pm 05/12/11 Permalink
fade
Brisbane, Queensland
7146 posts
Taggs is on the money, as usual.

Liquidated damages = good, penalty = bad.

It's probably best to start at what is damages. Damages is compensation for loss which is suffered due to non-observance with the terms of a contract.

Damages is not punishment for breach.

Damages can be liquidated (fixed or defined), or unliquidated (whatever the actual loss is that flows from the breach).

Pre-defined charges are an example of liquidated damages. Strictly speaking, each time you over-draw your account you are in breach of your contract with the bank.

Liquidated damages must be a genuine pre-estimation of loss.

Where a contract stipulates that on breach the contract-breaker will pay an agreed sum which exceeds what can be regarded as a genuine pre-estimate of the damages, it is likely to be a penalty (not liquidated damages).

Penalty clauses are unenforceable - even if both parties agree to it.
03:15pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Clubby
Brisbane, Queensland
714 posts
If these are people that are just too lazy to move banks the should pay the fees. Only way I could ever see this as something I would support is if it was people locked into loans etc and then afterwards the fees are raised giving them little options.

If this is some dude using a ATM and complaining GTFO and find another bank and stop crying.
03:18pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
11650 posts
Thanks fade/taggs, good explanation.

I'm still leaning right on this issue though. I think if you're unhappy with bank fees then you change banks and thereby send a message to the bank yourself.
03:28pm 05/12/11 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
5127 posts
I'm part of the class action suit against commbank. I can't remember how I signed up but I did, it was on the internet and needed very little info. These guys are going after the four big banks, starting with ANZ.

Penalty clauses are unenforceable - even if both parties agree to it.

Can you go into why that is so?
03:37pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4057 posts
Strictly speaking, each time you over-draw your account you are in breach of your contract with the bank.
how does this work when the bank "approves" the transaction that would overdrawn your account.. and be the only member of the transaction that has the means to check the account during the transaction (in between checking your bank account and heading to the stores the bank / 3rd parties could have processed any number of transactions against your account.)

03:39pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Clubby
Brisbane, Queensland
715 posts
They can't always check when you are over drawing your account ... for example with a VISA card. VISA actually process the transaction and then pass on the details to the bank via various systems.

The bank I used to work in also had stand in with VISA meaning that if our core systems went down etc we authorized visa to transact to a certain amount without authorization directly with us thus no impacting our customers.

Shrug I don't really see the need for the over drawn fees other than a deterrent to stop people trying (if there were no fees for this a lot of people would do it, which would amount to a decent amount of money for a bank with many customers).

I stand by my statement if you don't like fees move ... unless you are locked in then if you feel you have been unfairly treated I would understand that and would be happy for a governing body to make the call.
03:49pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
11538 posts

The part I don't get is there are other banks. Why not just bank with those instead? There is enough competition in this market place, surely, that banks should be able to charge whatever fees they want.
I believe this is just the first case. If this is successful I think they said the next target was the Commonwealth, and then on and on.
04:10pm 05/12/11 Permalink
fade
Brisbane, Queensland
7147 posts

Can you go into why that is so?


Historically, the courts in equity would not enforce agreements which are unfair.

As penalties are not reflective of the actual loss suffered by the aggrieved party, the courts have held that it would be unfair for them to receive more than they lost.

The purpose of damages is the put the parties into the same position as if the breach had not occurred. It is not to punish.
04:18pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Sc00bs
Brisbane, Queensland
8323 posts
So why cant we charge them $30 everytime our pay is in a day late because of a "computer malfunction" on their end?
04:36pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4058 posts
for example with a VISA card. VISA actually process the transaction and then pass on the details to the bank via various systems.


and yet my CC still can get "declined - insufficient funds" when making a purchase through a pinpad. (ironnically, i had to overdraw my savings account to pay for fuel that day...)

regardless though, a transaction to your savings account is instant and talks to the issuing bank.


04:42pm 05/12/11 Permalink
fade
Brisbane, Queensland
7148 posts


and yet my CC still can get "declined - insufficient funds" when making a purchase through a pinpad. (ironnically, i had to overdraw my savings account to pay for fuel that day...)

regardless though, a transaction to your savings account is instant and talks to the issuing bank.

notice != waiver.
04:44pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4059 posts
i never said it was, the point is they are technically capable of stopping transactions going through based on account specific information.

while we are at it, can we remove this ridiculous "fund transfer delay" that makes you wait a day or 2 for "fraud checking" before the money gets processed.

"fraud checking" my arse, the bank notified us of fraudulent activity on a CC we had, days later transactions were still processing through, when i called up they said it was just the pending / processing transactions, and that in 7-10 days they should reverse, (they have to go through first though!) luckly it was only the "test" transactions as the bank flagged the multi $1000 dollar transactions and called us.

Clubby, what position did you hold in the bank?

05:12pm 05/12/11 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1160 posts
I'm with ANZ and don't get charged any fees ever.

Ditto. Haven't paid a fee for years with them.
05:35pm 05/12/11 Permalink
no you hang up
Brisbane, Queensland
1847 posts
im with anz. i signed on for this class action about 2 years ago now. its against other banks but anz is the test case.
i used to receive all sorts of weird fees and be constantly ringing up anz to get them fixed. they would always agree to fix them, but half the time wouldnt.
be interesting to see if anything comes of it.
09:14am 06/12/11 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
18027 posts
NAB got rid of all those fees at the start of this year.
10:46am 06/12/11 Permalink
maRtz
Brisbane, Queensland
3448 posts
I remember back when I was a student and poor, I got rorted $40 everytime I withdrew more than what was in my account.. The cunts can get fucked for that.. I should have gone all fucking postal on them. Too young and stupid I think I was. Makes me rage when I think about it.
02:16pm 06/12/11 Permalink
no you hang up
Brisbane, Queensland
1848 posts
i just received this in an email from Financial Redress :

On Monday the Federal Court ruled on the preliminary issue of whether exception fees could amount to penalties at law. In a nutshell, the court found in class action member’s favour on late payment fees on credit cards, but against on overdrawn and over-limit fees.

The main case, which will consider wider areas of unfairness, and what ANZ’s true costs were, is likely to be heard in the second half of 2012. In the meantime, your lawyers will appeal those aspects of the preliminary judgement that went against class members. ANZ will likely do the same.
10:14am 08/12/11 Permalink
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10:14am 08/12/11 Permalink
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