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Government Set to Announce New Taxes / Levies
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15027 posts

This should be a fun thread!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-29/tony-abbott-says-debt-levy-would-not-break-pre-election-promise/5417510

There are reports the deficit levy would kick on in people earning $80,000 per year, with workers on that salary paying up to $800 per year in extra tax.

Basically, its looking like anyone over 80k gonna pay a grand or two more tax each year for a few years to correct the budget bottom line, bunch of other cutbacks to various welfare schemes.

Thoughts? Is is the 'tax we had to have'? Can the Coalition sell this stinger of a budget or is there a threat of one term Tone?
12:22pm 29/04/14 Permalink
system
Internet
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12:22pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6398 posts
Why not just rework the tax % and brackets if you're going to f*** around with a deficit levy though? Too many people complaining about socialism I guess.

Your 'a grand or two' . . . do you know something more than the article? Or have you just assumed that it's a straight 1% levy on everything you earn if you earn over 80k and threw in a few 200k earners?
12:33pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15028 posts

I didn't want to link to it in the OP, but news.com.au has reported:


The debt levy will only apply to workers on incomes of $80,000 and above and the rates will increase in line with tax brackets.
Taxpayers in the 37c tax bracket  on incomes of $80,000 to $180,000  are likely to pay an extra 1 per cent.
Those earning above $180,000 are likely to pay an extra 2 per cent.

They're using pretty strong definitive language for most of it.
http://www.news.com.au/national/aussie-taxpayers-800-hit-four-years-of-sharing-the-pain-to-reduce-the-huge-budget-deficit/story-fncynjr2-1226898849819

Its probably going to resemble that I guess, this is an era of media leaks before announcements, but it IS news.com.au...
12:37pm 29/04/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1816 posts
It's certainly a good idea. It would seem the tax increase is quite small compared to what I was expecting.

There's 2 things on many people's minds atm.

1: Will it actually be temporary? Wasn't half the fuel excises we pay for only temporary? You know, the ones from the 80's?

2: Saving money means f*** all when you spend billions on human killing jets. It's like a druggo telling you how he saved $10 because he didn't buy toilet paper which allowed him to buy more drugs. Only his druggo mate would agree.
12:43pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21420 posts
It's not gonna pay itself back. It's a shame the government is going for the "tax the rich option". The low income earners are enjoying Labor's excesses as well. A extra levy on all Labor MPs would also be appropriate.

The govt need to hack back more in the welfare area. Far too much welfare in the country. Need more working going on.

The sentiment of the Left was echoed perfectly last night night by Doug Cameron and that loony woman next to him. Tax the rich is their answer to everything.
12:50pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15029 posts
I'm not against it at all. I've been of a mind that Australia's tax system was structurally out for a few years now, I think they should be more honest and just declare that its necessary to change the tax structure. I guess an apparently temporary levy gives them the ability to paint it as a patch job over the previous government's apparent largesse.

It does kinda make me wonder why we needed all those tax cuts back in the 90s though, it seemed every time I turned around it was on again. Much easier to not have to stick your hand out when the lean times return imo, and we could have lots of cool public infrastructure that we currently lack.

OR we could use a massive SWF to buy smaller, poorer countries; enslave their people, then move Holden, Toyota & Ford manufacturing there. That works for me too.

infi: wtf is going on with your party man! Taxing big business to pay for middle class welfare, stinging the rich to fix the budget, avoiding dropping the hammer as much as possible on the unemployed, sick, and elderly! Do you even recognise your boys in blue down there in Canberra these days?
12:55pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37763 posts
t's not gonna pay itself back. It's a shame the government is going for the "tax the rich option". The low income earners are enjoying Labor's excesses as well. A extra levy on all Labor MPs would also be appropriate.


id much prefer to tax the rich and business (and SUPER DUPER tax on rich businesses)

what have poor people ever done to you infi? why do they make you so angry?
12:55pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1316 posts
It would be nice if they reformed tax subsidies like negative gearing, mining fuel subsidies, the non-progressive super tax system and family trusts.

Also thanks for scrapping the mining tax and taxing people instead of mining corps tone.

If they looked at all this and then still had to find money somewhere I wouldn't mind this tax so much.

The government paid a bunch of intelligent to look at tax reform in the Henry Tax review and have not implemented any of the suggestions. This is short sighted political cowardice from both Labor and Liberal.
12:57pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15030 posts
They're kind of dirty spook, and damn it, they just don't work HARD enough.
12:58pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15031 posts
This is short sighted political cowardice from both Labor and Liberal.

U may have missed the memo old chum, but this is Coalition policy, they won the toss and elected to bat.

Edit: god damn it now I have two posts next to each other like a spammer guy, but I'm contributing! Pls don't hate me :(
01:00pm 29/04/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2264 posts

Worse, he is playing word games when it is abundantly clear that the "levy" being considered, is a tax, plain and simple. Far more so, incidentally, than the fixed price per tonne on carbon pollution.
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/tony-abbotts-honesty-pledge-could-founder-on-new-deficit-tax-20140429-zr14x.html

purely an opinion piece.
01:01pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1317 posts

U may have missed the memo old chum, but this is Coalition policy, they won the toss and elected to bat.

Edit: god damn it now I have two posts next to each other like a spammer guy, but I'm contributing! Pls don't hate me :(


Henry Tax review was completed in 2010 champ.
01:04pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21421 posts
Hog I am not involved in party politics any more. They are all useless. I am busy enough keeping my businesses functioning amidst the sea of red tape regulation and tax.
01:08pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15032 posts
Henry Tax review was completed in 2010 champ.

Just seems odd to chuck in blame Labor in a thread about the current Government's choice of direction.

The ALP led a minority Government for that term, attempting to implement the nation's 21st century tax restructre in that environment probably wouldn't have been successful, and anyway, they were too busy arm wrestling for the keys to the Lodge. That Government was kind of a clusterf*** at the top and I'm glad they didn't attempt to make sweeping changes to the tax code.

However ... this one has no excuses in that regard, and have a situation where significant changes could be made with compelling reason and lots of fingers to point at the previous team. Their solution appears to be temporarily (?) raising income tax which just seems kind of unambitious and short-sighted. Maybe we'll get a vision of the new tax base in the leadup to the next election (which would also give them a nice string mandate too I guess).
Hog I am not involved in party politics any more. They are all useless. I am busy enough keeping my businesses functioning amidst the sea of red tape regulation and tax.

That's quite interesting. I know from some of your posts in the last few years you've been increasingly disenfranchised. Any pulse on the rank and file?
01:12pm 29/04/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2456 posts

Thoughts? Is is the 'tax we had to have'? Can the Coalition sell this stinger of a budget or is there a threat of one term Tone?

They'll sell it. Gotta pay for those jets and paid parental leave.

The govt need to hack back more in the welfare area. Far too much welfare in the country. Need more working going on.

Welfare is barely enough to survive on. If anything there should be more to help people who aren't in a strong situation. Be it unemployment, mental health, health and/or education. It's not easy to find work when none exists in your area.

Their solution appears to be temporarily (?) raising income tax which just seems kind of unambitious and short-sighted.

Everything this government is doing is short sighted.
01:28pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15509 posts

The govt need to hack back more in the welfare area. Far too much welfare in the country. Need more working going on.


They hacked at it it a fair bit already. Pretty much all single parents are worse off now in multiple areas for instance. They've cut a good number of welfare services aimed at indigenous and homeless people and also problem youth. They want to get stuck into pensioners too it seems.
01:42pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21422 posts
Unemployment Newstart should be capped at 2 years. If you can't get a job in 2 years then you are not trying hard enough.

The pension eligibility age definitely needs to go up. Any person seeking to benefit from a pension should have the full value of their principal residence taken into assets testing. If you have a $800,000 house sell it and buy a $400,000 unit and support yourself with the other $400,000 before you come to the govt for a pension.

Childcare and Paid Maternity Leave actually generate MORE tax for the government so that is where they should be investing.
01:47pm 29/04/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3454 posts
I just can't understand how this government can spend on frivolous s*** on one hand like welfare for high income earners and jets that are by all accounts a pile of s*** and then preach bulls*** about a budget emergency that requires extra taxation.

I really like it how the pollies are all about cuts to the pension and disability and be all like those old and crippled people should just get out there and work, all the while they enjoy a pension a millionaire wouldn't sneeze at which they only need to do like 4 years work to be eligible for. Same thing goes for their "everyone has to do their share" bulls***, where are the pay cuts for these wealthy politicians?

I'd be very interested to see what retired politicians are costing the country's tax payers.
01:49pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21423 posts

all the while they enjoy a pension a millionaire wouldn't sneeze at which they only need to do like 4 years work to be eligible for


wrong, all MPs are stuck on 9.25% super like you and me. Prime Ministers and Ministers get indexed pensions.

http://www.finance.gov.au/superannuation/parliamentary-superannuation/

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/1011/SuperannuationBenefits
01:52pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15510 posts

Unemployment Newstart should be capped at 2 years. If you can't get a job in 2 years then you are not trying hard enough


How does that work when unemployment rates increase with job vacancies decreasing? That may not be the case right now, but has been the case before and will so again at some point in the future. I know what you are thinking, they should retrain for it. Good idea, if you can't employ them, train them. Who is going to pay for that?

Also do you know how difficult it is for a single parent to find a job that allows them to work the hours they need for $'s whilst also allowing them the time they need to get their kids to and from school? To cook dinner, wash clothing, tidy house, educate them, entertain them, love them?
Wouldn't you rather give the money to the mother/father, allow them to spend that time raising a child (or children) who would be better educated and have a stronger emotional attitude leading to a more productive life than if the parent was absent most of their upbringing because they were forced to find work?

After school care and childcare can be very expensive. There simply isn't enough jobs like that for all the single parents, regardless of how hard they look. What a strange view you have infi.


You need to think long term, not simply 4 years or so into the future, long term should at least cover multiple generations. Cutting welfare funding now is seems to be a great idea to bring the budget to the black in the next 4 or so years, who gives a s*** about how it will affect the population in 10-20 years right?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 14:11:04 29/Apr/14
02:03pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1524 posts
Unemployment Newstart should be capped at 2 years. If you can't get a job in 2 years then you are not trying hard enough.


lol how did you settle on two years? Why not just make it 2 weeks? Cut to the chase eh?

And after whatever fix time limit on welfare and you say "thats enough" then what for the one getting kicked off support? Die in the gutter homeless and starving? Maybe a forced body part donation to "cover costs"? lol thats the Australia you want?

Dont say "well get a job". If they have been trying to two years one isnt going to magically appear for what ever reason.

Some fine folk (who have perhaps never experienced welfare apart from the "hardships" of uni aust study) seem to think welfare is just a hand out for nothing. Like at the welfare office there is a well dressed gentleman at a table stacked with nice new crisp 100 dollar bills and you just go up to them and take from the stack what you wish. Its not quite that way.

Being on welfare means living in poverty as it is. Below the poverty line. Think about that. Living in poverty. If you have never lived in poverty dont think its some romantic french novel about living in a garrotte eating just bread, cheese and cheap wine and looking all shabby chic while you play musical instruments and "make your own fun".
02:17pm 29/04/14 Permalink
funky
Canada
1845 posts
two years is a pretty damn long time.

also, regarding kids, don't have em if you can't afford em
02:19pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15033 posts
Have no problem with the dole in its current state.

Anyone happy to live at that level of subsistence and endless prodding from the gubment to get a job is welcome to it. There's a good reason there are only 377k long term unemeployed (2010) because its a dead end nothing life not the glorious free ride some people pretend.

Forcing derros to work either means you have to have directly deal with ferals, or they need to gain a base income by other means.
02:23pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15511 posts

also, regarding kids, don't have em if you can't afford em


Yeah, what about all the single parents who didn't exactly plan that? F*** em right?
02:26pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1525 posts
You are missing the point.

Two years is a length of time. Forget the length of time - what happens to the person who is kicked off welfare? Welfare that was basically just keeping them in poverty any way but keeping them housed and fed?

Just Starve? Or maybe they go out and try to get a job and fail and so go into work for themselves? And i mean "work". Like rob you or your house or some other crime just to get by. Being starving and potentially homeless is a great motivator to do things normal people would never contemplate.

Oh they get caught and go to jail? Well done. the cost of keeping someone on welfare is a fraction of what it costs to keep someone in jail for what is basically a political crime of being poor.

and lol the One (none?) Child China Policy for children is now proposed for Australia - you want that headline? Not to mention that if you only let rich people breed that having a child is now the privilege of the wealthy class (ie - breed em out!). That is just the shallow end of that can of worms.
02:27pm 29/04/14 Permalink
taggs
6310 posts
Hoggy just wants a slice of pie.
02:50pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24181 posts
I reckon politics threads need to hit 500 before pie is issued.
02:52pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8448 posts
Can you even be on newstart for 2 years? The longest I've ever heard of somebody being on it was for like 8 months (well she got a job for a while there in the middle, so maybe 4+3 months), but once she passed something like 6 months, she had to go in for fulltime 'work' at centrelink anyway (she wasn't trying to avoid getting a job either, was applying like crazy, it was just hard to get an entry position in the field she'd spent a decade mastering). I thought that there was a cut-off. How many people are on it for that long anyway? Is it even remotely related to any noteworthy amount of government spending? Considering that overall 'welfare' outside of pensions and the sick is already pretty tiny? (which includes students, etc).
02:55pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15034 posts
Hoggy just wants a slice of pie.

SHUS**
03:05pm 29/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
915 posts
This country has stooped to a new low. We now have to introduce a levy to pay back debt on top of massive cuts because this is the only way.

The funniest thing is that this levy is actually a Greens/Labor policy and was announced by he Greens weeks ago as a "millionaires tax" but now they are saying they dont support it just "cuz da tony abbots" is introducing it. Massive hypocracy.

Stupid Aussie voters should have learnt their lesson the first time when the hawke/leating government racked up their massive debt and deficiet but nooooo. This will be a never ending cycle. Labor didn't just "booby-trap" the budget by making vast open-ended commitments on schools and hospitals to take effect beyond the four-year forward estimates period. They created a Ponzi scheme of unsustainable spending because they thought new taxes, more spending and bigger bureaucracies were the answer to every problem.

They are a high tax, high debt, high deficiet party, it's their ideology, they will never change.

P.S sorry for all the spelling errors, in Thailand at the moment and I'm using my phone.
03:07pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1526 posts
all AG political threads end up like this eventually:

http://imagesbackgrounds.in/hdwallpaper/birds/Beautiful-Birds-Wallpapers-19.jpg

but all pleasure is fleeting
03:13pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24182 posts
I'd say it's more like this

http://i.imgur.com/IpkQPWw.jpg
03:19pm 29/04/14 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7441 posts
I reckon politics threads need to hit 500 before pie is issued.

political & religion threads should be exempt from pie. too ez!

the usual liberal misdirectors are in place... don't look at the new tax.. coz welfare is even worse!

i can't believe no one has pulled out the "disincentive for working hard!" chestnut out of their hats yet!
03:27pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8449 posts
I'm okay with this. Sure, it almost wipes out my annual increment, in the last few years under Labour I've had slight tax cuts anyway, so it's just back to what it was before. I'd rather it be on 80k+ than more on people earning $35k.

What bugs me is how he'll be spending it.
03:49pm 29/04/14 Permalink
TufNuT
I like eel pie
Brisbane, Queensland
4396 posts
Anyone happy to live at that level of subsistence and endless prodding from the gubment to get a job is welcome to it. There's a good reason there are only 377k long term unemeployed (2010) because its a dead end nothing life not the glorious free ride some people pretend.


I don't have a problem with the dole either.. the problem I have is that there are *some* people who are on the dole getting max payments and at the same time working as taxi drivers / other cash jobs.. for cash in hand..

Now I am not saying we should stop the dole but I think once someone has been on it for a period of time, there needs to be some kind of review to understand why this person is still on the dole, if it because they don't have skills, then train them. if its because they are cheating the system then deal with them..
03:58pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15512 posts
BroolStoryBro

Want to parrot Tony more?


TONY ABBOTT: They created a Ponzi scheme of unsustainable spending because they thought that new taxes, more spending and bigger bureaucracies were the answer to every problem.


At least put it in quote texts so you don't seem as stupid.
04:14pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24183 posts
ahahaha
04:16pm 29/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
916 posts
It's a factual statement, why shouldn't it be repeated? I didn't know I needed to change the words around in order for me to say it.

Labor knew their spending was unsustainable but continued on with it and now they are saying No to every measure imaginable to curb it and every measure to pay back their debt.

They are basically saying that our debt and deficit should never be paid back and we should keep borrowing until we default.
04:19pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1662 posts
^ Are you lonely?
04:20pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1318 posts
It's cool, Tone doesn't have an original thought in his head either why should Door?

Also why am I being taxed more to pay for paid parental leave for high income earners?

BUDGET EMERGENCY?!?!

The hypocrisy is staggering.
04:24pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15513 posts

It's a factual statement, why shouldn't it be repeated? I didn't know I needed to change the words around in order for me to say it.


It was presented as your words, when it was ripped word-for-word exactly. It simply shows that you don't internalise what is said to be expressed in your own way, a simple copy cat. I wonder then, do you even understand the words you say?


Labor knew their spending was unsustainable but continued on with it and now they are saying No to every measure imaginable to curb it and every measure to pay back their debt.


During the Labor government similar was said about Liberals, the retort was along the lines of 'that is the job of the opposition'.

Even some of coalitions own people think a debt levy is strategically stupid and paid parental leave should go.
04:25pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15035 posts
Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, talking about the flood levy to the ABC
January 21, 2011

ABBOTT: “I’m opposed to unnecessary new taxes and that’s what this is.
“There will have to be very substantial Commonwealth Government spending as part of the recovery and reconstruction, phase but there’s a right way and a wrong way to find that money.
“The Howard government ran a tight budget and a strong economy in a way that this Government never will, and second you don’t need a levy here because there is out-of-control government spending which can easily be reined back and reprioritised.”
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3117915.htm

Not so f*****g easy once you're in power is it Tone?! lel

The boring and simple reality is that structural reform is required following a few too many tax cuts from both parties in the previous 2 Governments keen to win votes at - literally - any cost. This doesn't fit into the 'deficit DNA' narrative that the Government needs to be believed in order to differentiate themselves, aside from providing a s***tier NBN policy and more warplanes pew pew pew.
I don't have a problem with the dole either.. the problem I have is that there are *some* people who are on the dole getting max payments and at the same time working as taxi drivers / other cash jobs.. for cash in hand..

This is criminally defrauding the Australian people and the Government should come down upon it like the Hammer of Thor
04:32pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13518 posts
you guys are just gonna have to knuckle down and stop more boats. also, have you been checking for submarines? just a thought tony
04:35pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8449 posts
Labor knew their spending was unsustainable but continued on with it and now they are saying No to every measure imaginable to curb it and every measure to pay back their debt.

Labor was getting spending below the Howard levels.

The debt was created by lowered revenue, not increased spending. Much of this was because Howard sold off revenue-generating assets to balance his own budget temporarily, and cut taxes on the way out, though the GFC didn't help. Labor was making some big cuts into Coalition welfare spending and took a lot of flack for it.

Why do you persist in ignoring this? Have you seen a mental health professional about your fetishisation of one-party hero rhetoric?
04:38pm 29/04/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1818 posts
you guys are just gonna have to knuckle down and stop more boats. also, have you been checking for submarines? just a thought tony

Our new F35's have the ability to not only detect submarines, but to dive underwater and launch submersible torpedos at them.

They will fix everything.
04:46pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
22898 posts
So they're Kingfisher F35's.
05:15pm 29/04/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4949 posts
sorry for all the spelling errors, in Thailand at the moment and I'm using my phone.

i know what I'd be doing in Thailand instead of reading this s***.

when mum and dad go to bed, sneak out and have some fun, you're only 13 once you know.
05:17pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24184 posts
I'm sure he'll really take some time out to get into some of the smaller parts Thailand have to offer. If you catch my drift.
05:22pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21424 posts
Leave people on indefinite unemployment benefits? Even Denmark has cut its unemployment benefit from 4 years to 2 years. Why would anyone support a policy enabling fit people to live on the dole indefinitely....

The Rudd/Gillard years are an embarrassing period even Bob Hawke and Paul Keating are ashamed of. Luckily they were turfed out after 6 years, imagine the havoc that could have been caused with further time. Australia now has one of the fastest increasing public debts in the OECD while most other countries are actually recovering from the GFC.

Poor old Tonez cops it because he has to clean up the mess. No good deed goes unpunished.

you guys are just gonna have to knuckle down and stop more boats.


all boats have been stopped. TICK.
05:26pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15514 posts

all boats have been stopped. TICK. .. arriving to australia shores. They still try

05:30pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1663 posts

i know what I'd be doing in Thailand instead of reading this s***.

when mum and dad go to bed, sneak out and have some fun, you're only 13 once you know.
I laughed and laughed when I read that.
05:50pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21426 posts
yeah it's an awesome gag because you're not even implying he's 13.
05:52pm 29/04/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1408 posts
Unemployment Newstart should be capped at 2 years. If you can't get a job in 2 years then you are not trying hard enough.


And what about someone like me, who doesn't qualify for disability, but can't do full time or physical work due to illness? I spent a year trying to find work. Hell, even writing up cover letters and answering phone interviews, I never heard back from anything and I was dredging the bottom of the barrel on my job apps (cleaning / shop assistant / sales).

But no, f*** me, right? Also, all the older folk who have been made redundant in fields that are less important and many other people I can think who could have trouble finding work.

Rather than trying to do all this sort of s***, maybe they should instead look at people who are roorting the system rather than using it for what it was intended for.
06:00pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24185 posts
And what about someone like me, who doesn't qualify for disability, but can't do full time or physical work due to illness?
The answer is the same as always; F*** You, Got Mine.
06:10pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21427 posts
The answer is within 2 years figure out a long term solution and get off the safety net. If you have a long term chronic illness you most likely qualify for disability. No one is talking about denying to support to people with genuine disabilities. Fpot is being particularly unsympathetic.
06:13pm 29/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
917 posts
This is the life, cold coolin at a bar in Thailand drinking while dropping truth bombs on qgl.

Aussies could learn some things off of the thai people. They aren't well off and know they actually have to work hard to survive because there is no massive gubment welfare programs to carry them along. They give you good customer service and are extremely friendly. They work hard and get rewarded for it. Where as in Australia you go out and are treated like an absolute c*** while recieving service not to mention the basic grunting sounds of a retail assistant who just doesn't give a s*** because they know their $25 an hour pay is secure and if they work 1 min past 6pm they will be richer than richer from penalty rates.

Australians have grown a sense of self entitlement where any government is worse than hitlet if massive growth in welfare programs is scaled back. Parties like labor just say "f*** it" and give in hence why we are at the stage we are now.

Work hard and be rewarded, not be lazy and expect everything.

Enjoy your day.

http://i.imgur.com/4q062Kc.jpg
06:14pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24186 posts
But you said the exact same thing as me. The only difference is I didn't bother to put any spin on it.
06:15pm 29/04/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1816 posts
The answer is within 2 years figure out a long term solution and get off the safety net.


A lot of the long term unemployed suffer from age discrimination, those over 50 who cannot get a job because of their age, I've seen it.

So what you propose is that after two years we enact mandatory euthanasia. Then, of course, you would have to find a job because daddy couldn't run the geriatric farm anymore. Which is good because you have a two year time limit on your life.

My real question is, can I flick the switch?
06:27pm 29/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24187 posts
One day I hope to head to Thailand on my own (because I have no mates) so I can have sex with prostitutes (the only way I can have sex). Usually it's only very old very lonely men who have to resort to that sort of thing so it's good to see some people getting into it early.
06:31pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21428 posts
A lot of the long term unemployed suffer from age discrimination, those over 50 who cannot get a job because of their age, I've seen it.

So what you propose is that after two years we enact mandatory euthanasia. Then, of course, you would have to find a job because daddy couldn't run the geriatric farm anymore. Which is good because you have a two year time limit on your life.

My real question is, can I flick the switch?


HJ again stuck in a loop of retardation. Mandatory euthansia? Really? Denmark must be barbaric then with their 2 year limit.

As for my unemployment prospects, I worked hard at school, uni and in my career. I was earning a stack of dough before the family business came along. I will be fine but thanks for the concern.

Just stick to your scrap heap.
06:38pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1527 posts
work hard and get rewarded - what is this the 50s?

It is well past the point for some in society where that was still even remotely true.

Its the distribution of wealth. Between the haves and have nots.

The hard unpleasant truth is that there are whole segments of society that will work as hard and long as they possibly or humanly can their whole life and still never be able to save enough for their own home in any reasonable semblance of "a nice place".

The gap is widening.
06:42pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15515 posts
Lets see now.

Australian Public debt isn't too bad. It's quite low compared to most other countries. Our ability to service that debt was recently compromised a little. This was due to the GFC, it caused a knock on effect that significantly reduced government tax income. This income was being used to pay the bills.

This was not the fault of any government. The private sector got hit and had to reduce costs, the cost of their debts increased, their patrons reduced their spending. Jobs were lost in large numbers. This led to to greatly reduced tax income.
Now we hit a problem in the private world. Our income increases greatly slowed down, we got scared, we didn't want to spend, but our debts stayed the same. Our Private debt is very high. The only thing that has really saved us from pain is the Reserve Bank dropping interest rates down, most of us have manged to stay afloat, with high debts.

The majority of this debt? Real Estate, both in Primary Homes and business land/stores.

This debt is chocking us. It is greatly reducing our ability to spend money.

People talk about trickle down theory, but rarely think about trickle up. If your foundation is not spending much, how can businesses pay taxes and expand? How can bigger business compete if aggregated little business can't role through large amounts of stock this will hurt big business and big taxes. So many rounds of taxes not happening due to spastic amounts of private debt.
Credit can help, but that leads to more debt and just compounds the problem if you are chocking on debt.

Remember that also during this time, food has increased markedly, fuel, electricity, water have all increased and in non trivial amounts.

People talk about this current government having balls and making the tough decisions. Bulls***. They are just skirting around the main issue of large private debt locked into the real estate industry.

You want the economy to boom? Get Private debt under control. Cutting welfare ain't going to do s***, they aren't in debt, they just have no money. Cut into the price of housing, then your talking. Now that is making the tough decisions.

06:55pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10260 posts
Increasing taxes, won't reduce private debt (just the opposite).

If things "are that bad". Planes and paid parental leave can not happen.
07:00pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1528 posts

The Denmark thing is nice. They now make it you have to be off welfare in 2 years. But i cant find much info on what happens then?

Stopping benefits is a tool regularly used in some countries (even here is Australia by centrelink), and that it is designed to discipline and punish people claiming benefits. Sometimes for trivial and minor infractions. Under some kind of perverse nineteenth century logic benefit cuts are also designed to instill in unemployed people the desire to seek employment "better".

I found this interesting on the back of massive cuts that will potentially force people into poverty and despair::

Denmark's Big Society: Let them eat buns
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02787/Denmark-benefits_2787893b.jpg

so

On Thursday morning, as rain clouds gathered over Denmark, a group of young people were handing out bread at Copenhagen Central railway station.

“We’re trying to make people smile,” said Saneja Lupic, 18, as she offered a homeless man a Danish bun. “We will be trying to do more voluntary work now because many state benefits are being reduced.”

The buns had been donated by one of Saneja’s friends, whose mother works in a bakery. “You won’t find people giving out free buns all over the world,” said Saneja. “Only somewhere like Denmark, where we have the resources to do it.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/10564738/Denmarks-Big-Society-Let-them-eat-buns.html
cake. its so yesterday


07:05pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37765 posts
i would smash all of their buns
07:13pm 29/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
918 posts
What amount a small federal government that was originally visioned by the people at our federation? We don't 200,000 overpaid paper pushers in Canberra and a dedicated minister for farting. Stop the overspending, stop the new taxes
.

@spook you must be old and desperate
07:19pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15516 posts

Stop the overspending, stop the taxes.


What overspending? Stop the taxes? Seriously? The majority of government income to do useful things comes from taxes?

How about, Stop the Bulls***, free up the private money. More spending money gives greater tax revenue.

07:25pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21429 posts
First thing we should do is scrap the entire departments of Health and education. We already have state departments. Commonwealth federal departments of Health and education don't treat a single patient or educate a single student.
07:25pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15036 posts
hahaha did you just appeal to the vision of the founding fathers on an aussie gaming forum, f***head?

hahahahahahahahaahahhaahah
07:27pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37766 posts
@spook you must be old and desperate

im old and like bread products.
07:27pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15517 posts

First thing we should do is scrap the entire departments of Health and education. We already have state departments. Commonwealth federal departments of Health and education don't treat a single patient or educate a single student.


Cutting spending in various places is not going to fix the systemic problem our country is facing. It is NOT a government spending problem, it never was.

It is an overburdened private sector, up to its eyeballs in debt combined with significantly increasing costs of livings in the areas of Food, Water, Energy and housing (both in rent and mortgages).
What is the government doing to bring these soaring costs under control? What are Liberals policies in these areas? Cutting the carbon tax, OK that helped a very small amount for energy costs and slightly for food.
What about water? What about a more significant impact on food? What about housing?

And there is Labor's or Clive's new potential strategy. Getting to the meat of the problem and not pussyfooting around cutting welfare to people who can't afford to make a difference.
07:36pm 29/04/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1409 posts
The answer is within 2 years figure out a long term solution and get off the safety net. If you have a long term chronic illness you most likely qualify for disability. No one is talking about denying to support to people with genuine disabilities. Fpot is being particularly unsympathetic.


If only it was that easy, but as usual, it's not.

I got hit with "Your condition isn't named, nor is it stable or being treated so you have a total of 0 sick points". Apparently it's pretty common, according to my doctor.

One of the side effects is chronic fatigue (and FAR more seriously, degrading kidneys) which causes me to have the energy of a 90 year old. That's not enough to get a claim either.

Basically, I am stuck with the choice of working myself to death (or more likely, falling asleep from over-work for upwards of 24 hours and losing said job) or being on benefits. Thankfully, I have an aptitude for IT, so I'm studying at the moment in hopes of being able to find something part time that will pay enough to keep me in a house.

Hell, if I could, I'd go live in a bush somewhere with a bow and some solar panels, but I'd probably be jailed for squatting. Can't win...
07:39pm 29/04/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1817 posts


HJ again stuck in a loop of retardation. Mandatory euthansia? Really? Denmark must be barbaric then with their 2 year limit.

As for my unemployment prospects, I worked hard at school, uni and in my career. I was earning a stack of dough before the family business came along. I will be fine but thanks for the concern.

Just stick to your scrap heap.


Yes, my scrap heap being comfortably well off for life..and not paying any income tax, only taxes and charges related to purchases.....

Should I mention I've been doing my own scrap heap for 20+ years...


---

I should mention that this levy isn't going to hurt the people who know how to avoid the tax burden and all of them earn more than 80k pa.

and a mandatory meme;
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10268442_10152412595661789_2758521596723161868_n.png
07:40pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8450 posts
Infi how many people are you referring to being on centrelink for 2 years or more? How much money will it save? What are these people's situations? What will happen to them after?
07:53pm 29/04/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1821 posts
"My way of thinking about this has evolved. If my thinking can evolve, and other peoples thinking can evolve too."

-Abbott on Parental Leave.
08:08pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21430 posts
I guess the same thing will happen as what happens in Denmark: family, friends and charity pitch in like has been happening sine the dawn of civilisation.

Indefinite unemployment benefits exist in VERY few countries. You make the absence of indefinite unemployment benefits sound like an act of barbarism.
08:15pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15518 posts

Indefinite unemployment benefits exist in VERY few countries.


So? Why should we be like all the other countries?

Never mind that, what is the government going to do about the real problems facing Australians, Fuel, Water, Electricity, Food, Housing and high debt? Welfare cuts aren't going to do squat to change any of that.
08:23pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21431 posts
Private debt is incurred by people freely. Individuals choose the level of debt that suits them. Individuals are responsible for the management of their own debt, not the gubment.

Government debt is involuntary and higher taxation is a byproduct of that. Government is directly responsible for that outcome. Furthermore government debt enslaves future generation who had nothing to do with incurring the debt.
08:28pm 29/04/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4984 posts
weather aside, where would you rather live, norway, or the US.

norway by far has better support and happier people

the US is f***ed in so many ways, unless you're in the upper 5%, why bother
08:29pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15519 posts

Private debt is incurred by people freely. Individuals choose the level of debt that suits them. Individuals are responsible for the management of their own debt, not the gubment.

Government debt is involuntary and higher taxation is a byproduct of that. Government is directly responsible for that outcome. Furthermore government debt enslaves future generation who had nothing to do with incurring the debt.


Don't get me that, Public and Private economies are heavily intertwined. It is folly to just d*** around with 1 side and hope that the other will respond.

Surely you can see that expensive housing creates a huge burden on peoples incomes, it also forces high rents forcing a huge burden on non-home owner income.
This income is lost to lower economy and gets shipped around the world via the big banks investing in whatever seems good at the time.

To me, this is truly wasted money. It is money that doesn't help the local economy and by extension the national economy.

There is no point borrowing money from a bank to fund a business if no-one has the ability to buy stuff from that business, so don't say money going into the big banks is good for the economy, when there is little money to be spent. It has to be balanced and it is not.
08:44pm 29/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
647 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Doofus overload
Send Private Message
08:44pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15520 posts

They called a levy to pay back THEIR debt


Just f*****g stop it, it isn't THEIR debt. The factors for the reduction in tax revenue was outside of government control. I'll accept that the government at the time didn't foresee the continued reduction in tax revenue and act accordingly, even if they did there would still be debt. The truth is Liberal would have done a very similar thing and had a very similar outcome.

So stop blaming s*** on previous governments and start working towards a better future for the economy and it's people, where it counts. Make the true hard decisions.
08:53pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10261 posts
Tax increase ...

Or we could buy some planes that can't fire any weapons at planes we can't detect e.g. MH370 while paying millionaire tax avoiding wenches to get preggers...

Left vs. Right ... who cares.

Politics is broken. It's not for the people, it's for the politicians (and the party members, you know like Infi)
09:28pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8452 posts
Infi are you just going to ignore all questions about your frothing? How many people are on centrelink for 2 years? How much will it save to focus on this issue? Who are these people, what is their situation, and what will happen after?
09:41pm 29/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1529 posts

Private debt is incurred by people freely. Individuals choose the level of debt that suits them. Individuals are responsible for the management of their own debt, not the gubment.


Individuals choose the level of debt that suits them? Really? Sounds nice and neat. So i guess when a family member gets sick you can just put them down like the family dog if the Dr bills get too high? Or if the bread winner suddenly gets the sack because the plant shuts down with little notice the family can choose not to go into debt?

Situations like these dont happen in the real world you live in? Maybe just in silly peoples lives who want to f*** up, be poor and slowly die in a corner. Here is real world:

As any insurance salesman will tell you, in our lives we are all vulnerable to risks. In addition, the longer the timeframe we look at risks, the more common they become.

The 2012 HILDA Statistical Report found that around one in six people experience serious injury or illness to a close relative or family member each year, and nearly half experience it over a four-year period. Around 8-9% of the population experience serious injury or illness themselves each year and more than 25% over four years. Around 3% are fired or made redundant each year and 10% over four years.

Exposure to risks has consequences. Around 3% of the population have a major worsening in finances each year and 10% over four years. Between 2001 and 2008 – exceptionally good years for the Australian economy – just under half the adult population experienced an income drop, with around one-fifth having a major income fall.


and

We often think of the welfare system as creating “dependency” and that all people on welfare stay there for very long periods of time. HILDA shows that while two-thirds of the working-age population received welfare at some stage between 2001 and 2009, only around 1.2% got nearly all of their income (90% or more) from welfare for the whole nine years. These people tend to have very complex combinations of disadvantages.
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/04/in-defence-of-the-welfare-state/

finally

PM has made it clear his policy decisions will increase deficit & will charge community to advantage big end of town

Greens leader Christine Milne
09:47pm 29/04/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10473 posts
Australia has moving towards a contractor-based workforce for quite some time



my wife ( and her friends ) are contractor-based workers ( sorry - 'teachers'... not to be confused with 'sex industry workers ) ). I don't like labeling people who have earned their worth to society the hard way with cheap and dis-empowering titles. Almost as much as I can't stand corrupt and/or inept unions, or the people who prop them up. You know who you are.



5 yrs ago I sat around comfortably on around $115k a year as a simple IT admin ( I don't like titles ). Today that same job is being managed by a crew of 50 people in Sydney in a 'remote sweatshop'.


still, tomorrow will be nice - I have to drive all the way to Toowoomba and tell the local car dealership owner that he can't have the NBN fiber install he wanted, then rush back to Brisbane to check over the POS units for a client.


Said client will look at me in her usual way and wonder why she pays me to turn up.


I'm still wondering how someone in their 40's is a manager and still hasn't had 'don't piss off the IT company' training.


it's coming... her server needs replacing and she's desperately trying to come in under budget this quarter.. she knows head office is playing her though she thinks her degree allows her to shrug off good advice. Meh - it's her budget


truthfully though - she's quite funny and intelligent. I wish we could have met outside work. Still - not my problem
09:55pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Vash
3935 posts
Budget emergency doesn't exist. It's typical Liberal propaganda.
It's hilarious people think the howard years were budget conscious, he wasted more money than Labor ever did, and then sold alot of government owned assets to get a surplus.
Once you run out of assets to sell, what then, liberals?
10:11pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21432 posts
Infi are you just going to ignore all questions about your frothing? How many people are on centrelink for 2 years? How much will it save to focus on this issue? Who are these people, what is their situation, and what will happen after?


I don't have that info and it's not really relevant. Everyone old enough to be in the labor market should be in the labor market. There's a job for everyone out there. May not be located where they want to work but...

As to what will happen after the cut off I answered that above. Stop being so indignant about your hand outs.
10:12pm 29/04/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2458 posts


I don't have that info and it's not really relevant. Everyone old enough to be in the labor market should be in the labor market. There's a job for everyone out there. MSY not be located where they want to work but...

As to what will happen after the cut off I answered that above. Stop being so indignant about your hand outs.

It's not as easy as you say it is. Being in rural areas with not many jobs makes it hard to find a job, even when you are willing to do anything. It's just super difficult to get a job. Or some people might be able to find jobs because of mental health issues.

You seem to think everyone who stays on unemployment benefits is living the good life. It's barely enough to live on. You really need to pull your head out of your arse and acknowledge that not everyone has it as good as you and that we have safety nets like unemployment, and other welfare services for people who are less fortunate. It isn't a case of these people feeling entitled, it's a case of these people using something there that is offered to everyone when s*** goes bad. There may be a tiny minority that abuses the system, but that doesn't mean we punish everyone.
10:19pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8453 posts
I don't have that info and it's not really relevant. Everyone old enough to be in the labor market should be in the labor market. There's a job for everyone out there. May not be located where they want to work but...

So we don't know if it's even an issue or has anything to do with the state of the budget, you were more interested in rhetoric than addressing the actual financial problem, but wanted to coat your frothing and class-war in the guise of being a solution to the financial problem. As always....

As to what will happen after the cut off I answered that above.

You haven't even identified who they are, if they even exist. How do you know what will happen to them? We don't even know why they don't they have jobs currently.

Stop being so indignant about your hand outs.

I'm not on any sort of handouts and run two small money-making businesses. Have been briefly in the past, because not everybody is born to a family who can give them a high ranking job at a company. (I know, shocking to you to hear the plights of the lazy peasants).
10:21pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21433 posts
I wasnt born into a high paying family job either. I made my money bought my house the hardway. Unemployment benefits is a no go zone in our family.

Go where the work is, dont party or go on gap years, save most spare wages, have salary and disability insurance. Basically be a grown up.

The way to address the structural debt and moreso the cultural weakness is to address our country's expectation of unlimited govt support. Rewarding non work over work is a serious sickness Australia is maligned with.

Yes that goes for corporate subidies and industry subsidies too.
10:29pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21435 posts

It's not as easy as you say it is. Being in rural areas with not many jobs makes it hard to find a job, even when you are willing to do anything. It's just super difficult to get a job. Or some people might be able to find jobs because of mental health issues.

You seem to think everyone who stays on unemployment benefits is living the good life. It's barely enough to live on. You really need to pull your head out of your arse and acknowledge that not everyone has it as good as you and that we have safety nets like unemployment, and other welfare services for people who are less fortunate. It isn't a case of these people feeling entitled, it's a case of these people using something there that is offered to everyone when s*** goes bad. There may be a tiny minority that abuses the system, but that doesn't mean we punish everyone.


go where the work is?

the safety net will always be there but do you honestly expect to sit tight for 2 years and just hope for something to pop up. if something does not come up in 6 months is that not telling you something? read between the lines? talk about me having my head up MY ass? crikey...

So we don't know if it's even an issue or has anything to do with the state of the budget, you were more interested in rhetoric than addressing the actual financial problem, but wanted to coat your frothing and class-war in the guise of being a solution to the financial problem.


You call it rhetoric, but its actually the culture of our society. Unless we change the culture of our society the hand will always be out and people will always but saying "But, the government...".

We need to foster self-reliance, incentive getting back to work, moving to go to work, make it easier to hire and fire employees and find the right fit for each business. The current whole rule set is perversely geared towards punishing entrepreneurial spirit. Putting a ceiling on unemployment benefits to 2 years is simply one of 1000 things that needs to be done to change our culture and attitude towards work, personal responsibility and the entrepreneurial spirit.
10:40pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2797 posts
But what about the credit rating, why isn't anyone thinking of the childrencredit rating!?! /s

We have nothing to complain about, our budget is looking pretty, in comparison to the global economy, and this levy is going to be a drop in the ocean. I do completely support taxing the rich, however, and laugh at all the capitalist pig-dogs against this tax.

Anyway, let's all have a lovely breath of fresh air, and talk about what really matters.
10:41pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8454 posts
So you can't answer any of the questions about how this is relevant to the budget, then give your condescending advice that many of us (myself at least) have followed to the letter in their lives (yet hardly get rich for it, in fact I lost nearly all of it trying to start a business on my own without a parent to just give the job to me, but I guess I was just lazy working for 3 years straight nearly 7 days a week and needing about 2 months of unemployment during the depression after that).
10:45pm 29/04/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11079 posts
I have to pay a levy for the incompetence of the Government that the QgL Bolshys voted for.

and you wonder why I dont vote ?

The Government... is Not your Friend. (even when you vote for them)
10:48pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21436 posts
Continuous skyrocketting GDP all through Labor's 6 years and this is what they leave us with. Deficits as far as they eye can see.

I used to think there is a property bubble but our market has been surprisingly resilient due to our terms of trade. If we were in a bubble then why wasn't there a crash like the US and Europe? Our economy was roaring along, its just a shame our Expenditure as a % of GDP has blown out of control, particularly after you factor in the massive costs of NDIS and Gonski funding. NDIS is going to have to be scaled back in a big way.

I agree the parental paid leave scheme needs to go on ice too. In the several very lean spots I have had in my business, I axed every non essential expenditure. We seem to have a problem with going without in thus country. We have no f***en idea what austerity is.

So you can't answer any of the questions about how this is relevant to the budget,


it's a policy matter. what should a individual's entitlement be as part of the social compact. the finances are not relevant. I am suggesting the two years is plenty. Your suggestion that whether it is a significant impost on the budget or not is irrelevant. It is the typical handout mentality of it costs bugger all so let it go. Every line of every budget needs to be examined and all the nuts tightened right down.

yet hardly get rich for it, in fact I lost nearly all of it trying to start a business on my own without a parent to just give the job to me,


i had a prosperous career and saved and owned my own house before I got the family gig. I don't how the parent quip factors into it.
10:49pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8455 posts
Oh so now it's that you're willing to spend more government money to combat what you don't even know is necessarily even a real issue, for which you have zero evidence of it ever happening, and now have done a complete 180 to say that you don't even care about the budget, you're just on a potentially expensive personal crusade.

Just sad lol.
10:54pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21437 posts
Oh so now it's that you're willing to spend more government money to combat this idea that you don't even know is necessarily even a real issue, for which you have zero evidence of it ever happening, and now have done a complete 180 to say that you don't even care about the budget, you're just on a potentially expensive personal crusade.

Just sad lol.


typical apathy of people who don't know how to manage money. "it's not a lot of money bro, just leave em be." it's easy to give the money out when it's someone else's.
10:57pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2798 posts
the safety net will always be there but do you honestly expect to sit tight for 2 years and just hope for something to pop up. if something does not come up in 6 months is that not telling you something? read between the lines? talk about me having my head up MY ass? crikey...

Unemployment benefits is a no go zone in our family.

Go where the work is, dont party or go on gap years, save most spare wages, have salary and disability insurance. Basically be a grown up.

The way to address the structural debt and moreso the cultural weakness is to address our country's expectation of unlimited govt support. Rewarding non work over work is a serious sickness Australia is maligned with.


What f*****g planet are you on?
11:05pm 29/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21438 posts


What f*****g planet are you on?


The one where if you have a problem with you country's finances you just tax all the high income earners a bit more apparently. Do you have a point you were trying to make?
11:07pm 29/04/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1410 posts

Just came across this on my FB feed.

Didn't check every single source, but the fact that every claim has a link gives me confidence:

http://www.glennmurray.com.au/abbotts-war-on-the-rest-of-us-and-why-theres-no-need/


11:33pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8456 posts
typical apathy of people who don't know how to manage money. "it's not a lot of money bro, just leave em be." it's easy to give the money out when it's someone else's.

No, f*** off, I've asked you a dozen times to prove that they even exist and give a rough idea of how much money we're talking about, to know if it would cost more to fix, and if it's something that even needs to be fixed. We don't know what it's costing now (if anything), and we don't know how much the 'solution' might actually cost, in several senses.
11:37pm 29/04/14 Permalink
Vash
3936 posts
12:18am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21439 posts

give a rough idea of how much money we're talking about,


The stats referred to in this article suggest long term unemployed i.e. over 12 months hovers around 20%. I doubt that rate reduces by much between 1 year and 2 as most re-employment would occur within the first 12 months.

This ABS paper suggests the number is around 116,700 in 2001 and the rate has not changed substantially since then when referring to the Drum article above.

Using 100,000 people to account for some people who may gain employment in their second year, and using the single, no children rate for Newstart is $510.50 or $13,273 p.a. (excluding $130/fn rent assistance) brings the cost of unemployment benefits for people who have been unemployed for more than two years to around $1.3b. It's not beer money.

Another interesting feature of our system is that workers do not pay for their unemployment insurance. In the UK for example workers pay 12%! of their income to benefit from unemployment insurance. Canada and Germany have similar schemes with lower insurance premiums.

Some more interesting reading:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/01/16/dole-around-the-world-how-does-australia-stack-up/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

Link


And the brool/infi frothsquad will ignore this


I read the article I noted that discussion of the term poverty,, so I looked it up. The OECD definition describes relative poverty, or more accurately, income inequality. There is no way to get relative poverty to zero because there is always a certain % that will be worse off. I never knew the statisticians use this definition which is quite disingenuous. This is not starvation poverty, this is relatively worse off poverty.

The article also provided that Australia does not have the lowest welfare payments in the developed world, so we indeed have some cutting to do.

But not just that, our behemoth of a government can be cut significantly and our current benefits retained for the great part. In a $300b budget we only need to save 10% and we have repaired all of Labor's damage.
12:27am 30/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24188 posts
$1.3b. It's not beer money.
But it's a really small price to pay so these people, after not working for 12 months, have some money and a way to support themselves. What happens when their benefits go to zero? In lolbertarian world (aka infi world) they bootstrap themselves into a job and everyone lives happily ever after. In the real world their situation gets desperate and they become even more of a burden to society. It's a loss for people who only care about money, and a loss for people who care about social issues.

I read the article I noted that discussion of the term poverty,, so I looked it up. The OECD definition describes relative poverty, or more accurately, income inequality. There is no way to get relative poverty to zero because there is always a certain % that will be worse off. I never knew the statisticians use this definition which is quite disingenuous. This is not starvation poverty, this is relatively worse off poverty.

The article also provided that Australia does not have the lowest welfare payments in the developed world, so we indeed have some cutting to do.

But not just that, our behemoth of a government can be cut significantly and our current benefits retained for the great part. In a $300b budget we only need to save 10% and we have repaired all of Labor's damage.
This is all peak F*** You Got Mine.
01:09am 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
648 posts
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01:57am 30/04/14 Permalink
Vash
3937 posts
hmm, believe brools froth, or statistics with sources on a website?
That's easy.

Australia is an excellent position thanks to Labor's stimulus package. To say otherwise you'd be an ignorant moron. The rest of the world got f***ed. There's a reason Wayne swan was commended world wide.
You'll never see the same honors given to Joe hockey. the guy has no idea.
02:24am 30/04/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8457 posts

Using 100,000 people to account for some people who may gain employment in their second year, and using the single, no children rate for Newstart is $510.50 or $13,273 p.a. (excluding $130/fn rent assistance) brings the cost of unemployment benefits for people who have been unemployed for more than two years to around $1.3b. It's not beer money.

Hold on, we were talking about people on centrelink, not the total population. I've been unemployed and know plenty of people who have been unemployed who weren't on centrelink. As I've said several times, the one case I know of somebody going for more than 6 months involved pain-in-the-ass fulltime centrelink attendance on their part which just got in the way of job-seeking (pretty much any interaction with them is pretty rubbish, seems to be purposefully made to be so painful that it's better to just not take the money unless you absolutely need it).

Here's the actual stats and demographic information, with no explanation regarding how much they're actually receiving or costing (e.g. they received a payment from centrelink at some stage, and are long term unemployed, but was it the full-rate? Just a $10 payout? Can somebody even do that in Australia?) : http://apo.org.au/guide/long-term-unemployment-australia

Here are the numbers for two years - https://www.nesa.com.au/media/27283/very_long_term_unemployed.pdf

> "Once a job seeker has been unemployed for one year, they have a 54 per cent chance of becoming very long term unemployed (ie unemployed for two years). "
02:31am 30/04/14 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4749 posts
it's easy to give the money out when it's someone else's.
You know you're not the only one that pays taxes?

You act like you're so hard done by infi, but you're probably doing much better and have much more leverage and advantage in your day to day life than most of us.

They have f***ed us, we now have to make cuts across the board etc to pay back THEIR debt.


in what way are we f***ed? less debt is obviously good, but we're far from f***ed.

we're currently ranked 134th(at the end of 2013) in the race of "worst" gdp to debt ratio obtainable. japan currently being number one with over 200% (ours is approx 20% which is down from the approx 22% of the previous year, although i'll admit it was growing consistently from 2008, but GFCs will do that. ).

So please. enlighten me with how exactly we were / are "f***ed".
03:08am 30/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1530 posts
ah i was going to do a big reply but then recalled that infi has no issues with the idea of indentured labor/ servitude/ slavery etc that we ascertained the last time this sort of conversation went around

Basically no access to welfare (or cut off form) means the needy dont just stop being the governments problem and become "someone else s problems" they become "someone else s property" or near enough.
03:12am 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
921 posts
hmm, believe brools froth, or statistics with sources on a website?
That's easy.

Australia is an excellent position thanks to Labor's stimulus package. To say otherwise you'd be an ignorant moron. The rest of the world got f***ed. There's a reason Wayne swan was commended world wide.
You'll never see the same honors given to Joe hockey. the guy has no idea.


If hockey manages to pay back labors rising debt within this decade and stabilizes the growing deficiet, he will be heralded as a god.



in what way are we f***ed? less debt is obviously good, but we're far from f***ed.

we're currently ranked 134th(at the end of 2013) in the race of "worst" gdp to debt ratio obtainable. japan currently being number one with over 200% (ours is approx 20% which is down from the approx 22% of the previous year, although i'll admit it was growing consistently from 2008, but GFCs will do that. ).

So please. enlighten me with how exactly we were / are "f***ed".


We are currently f***ed because the we are on a trajectory to ridiculous debt levels(600b within 4) and have an unsustainable projected growth in social/welfare programs.

It's the equivalent of a car hurdling towards the edge of a cliff and saying "nah it's ok, we aren't there yet so don't panic"
04:16am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15521 posts

But not just that, our behemoth of a government can be cut significantly and our current benefits retained for the great part.


Yeah great thinking there buddy, lets cut the government numbers down, great idea. Throw those people into the mix of increasing unemployment, but wait this is the best bit, expect them all to get jobs if they don't? Who cares just don't give them money.
We don't want them working, paying taxes and spending money on the local economy, which leads to increased taxes from business and GST, which leads to more opportunities to build more business and gain more taxes and so on and so forth.



Hi My name is BroolStoryCo and I say stupid things like this:

If hockey manages to pay back labors rising debt within this decade and stabilizes the growing deficiet, he will be heralded as a god.


Even though both Labor and Liberal have pointed out the most significant issue affect the government budget is greatly reduced tax income. I don't care, because I just want to blame stuff on Labor. It's always someone elses fault and not mine. Almost everything I say is an attempt to blame something on Labor. That will be a great way to move the country forward!!
07:01am 30/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1319 posts
Fix the mining tax, dump paid parental leave. How hard is it?
08:03am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15522 posts
I'd also like to point out that it seems to me cutting productivity by removing people from the working pool and taking away money from people who quickly spend it is precisely the opposite thing that should be done during a weak economic time.

Cutting down government numbers is, as infi loves to repeat ad nauseam, probably a good idea. Do it when the economy is strong, when private debt is low and tax revenue is high. The economy an easily absorb such changes and is in a much better position to absorb these people hitting the employment market.

Cut down on welfare? Yeah, there are probably avenues where welfare is too freely given and can cause a dependency. Again, cutting it down during a weak economic situation is precisely the wrong time to do it, do it when the economy is strong and when we can easily afford the welfare. The people of the country, in a much stronger economic position are in the best frame of mind to help their fellow countrymen through their own efforts and not leave it to the government. Expecting the same when a large majority of people are struggle? stupidity.


It seems to me, that this current government doesn't have the ability to manage a weak economy in an effective manner, due to ineptitude or poor strategic choices during election time? It makes no difference. It seems they would rather continue to kick Labor while it is down and continue to blame the situation on them.

Australia has an excellent credit rating, among the best in the world. We can afford to increase our debt during this weak economic time, we can afford to continue welfare and retain government employees, we can afford to take measures to get Australia through this weak economic time. When the economy is stronger, that is the time for cuts. Not now.
08:09am 30/04/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19572 posts
dump paid parental leave


i'm so torn on this

it is a retarded idea no doubt, but i'm also probably going to have a kid in the next couple of years so i'd like to cash in on it as well hahaha
08:15am 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15037 posts
In a $300b budget we only need to save 10% and we have repaired all of Labor's damage.

In a 300b budget, 1.3b in subsistence money for the long term unemployed is 0.4%. Smashing long term unemployment benefits literally will fix nothing and cause lots of social problems. We're not the stingiest, most miserly country in the developed world? That's a good thing!

Unemployment benefits are immediately and almost totally re-circulated into the economy anyway. These people live from week to week and are pure consumers with 0 savings. It would probably hurt GDP to slash it lol.

"I worked hard" ... you inherited your old man's business, get some perspective and be thankful of your advanced start instead of pretending anyone can easily bootstrap themselves into success. Trust me, it ain't that easy or everyone would have done it already.

Please note I don't hate inheritance or begrudge anyone a head start, I want to give my kids one. But I'll go totally spare if I ever hear them prattle on like that.

Anyway, start with middle class welfare. Start with people defrauding the commonwealth. Start with closing tax minimisation strategies that provide the wealthy a legal opportunity to minimise tax, while wage earners on relatively high incomes just get stung over and over. For the f*****g love of God, start with ridiculous and anachronistic lifetime benefits for retired f*****g politicians if there is a budget emergency.

Nope. F*****g unemployed man. 1.3b! Lets buy moar planes. Reowwwrrrr dakka dakka dakka pew pew pew lel free QANTAS tickets for life yo
08:46am 30/04/14 Permalink
BOOST
Brisbane, Queensland
655 posts
We can afford to increase our debt during this weak economic time, we can afford to continue welfare and retain government employees, we can afford to take measures to get Australia through this weak economic time. When the economy is stronger, that is the time for cuts. Not now.


DOUBLE DOWN!
08:58am 30/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1320 posts


i'm so torn on this

it is a retarded idea no doubt, but i'm also probably going to have a kid in the next couple of years so i'd like to cash in on it as well hahaha


It would be better spent on child care to get the parent back into the workforce.
09:03am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15523 posts

We can afford to increase our debt during this weak economic time, we can afford to continue welfare and retain government employees, we can afford to take measures to get Australia through this weak economic time. When the economy is stronger, that is the time for cuts. Not now.



DOUBLE DOWN!


Except it isn't doubling down. The government has a sound strategy in effect to help produce a strong economy in 10-20 years time right? Right?

You don't fix a 'budget emergency' in 2 years, not without hurting it in 10 years. Do you truly think it is wise to cut welfare and potentially (likely) damage future productivity of those who are affected, in particular the offspring, just to save a few dollars now, when Australia can afford it?

Austerity is the wrong thing to do during economic weakness. Austerity is to be practiced during a strong economy.

09:23am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21440 posts

"I worked hard" ... you inherited your old man's business,


Hog, to set the record straight prior to 2003 I had only incidental involvement with my father and his business. I went to Uni, got several jobs, casual, temporary, private, government. I made my own way in life. I had no idea what his will said and I didn't care. I am entirely self sufficient. I didn't need a family job, I was already a well paid public servant sacking teachers for the Education Department. I voluntarily moved to work for my father on exactly the same salary as I was earning otherwise I told him was not moving. I found my family company on insolvency's doorstep twice once in 2004 and once in 2012 and managed it away both times. In 2013 I earned the same I earned in 2003. I am earning less now than I would have been had I stayed in the public service.

Why is my personal story always used to undermine the points I am making? Why is retold inaccurately? Oh it's because you don't know my personal story and it just suits your narrative. It's a real weakness of people on this forum to misquote and contort reality to insult and undermine a person's credibility. I know the trust fund kiddie story is the ultimate source of hate for basically anyone with a shred of jealousy in their DNA but I am not that story. If I had not worked in my prior roles I could never successfully manage a company the size I run today.

Unemployment benefits are immediately and almost totally re-circulated into the economy anyway. These people live from week to week and are pure consumers with 0 savings. It would probably hurt GDP to slash it lol.


this is a false economical argument, similar to the one that smashing windows to fix them again builds the economy. it builds one person's economy, the recipient of the benefit, but the money has been taken from another person who earned it themselves and was going to do something with it until government.

You don't fix a 'budget emergency' in 2 years, not without hurting it in 10 years.


Howard and Costello fixed the last Labor mess in 2 years and repaid all debt in 10. Unless Hockey and Abbott grow a pair we will be in debt for decades.

Cutting down government numbers is, as infi loves to repeat ad nauseam, probably a good idea. Do it when the economy is strong, when private debt is low and tax revenue is high. The economy an easily absorb such changes and is in a much better position to absorb these people hitting the employment market.


so government is basically this source of employment for people who otherwise would not have had jobs? government should employ the number of public servants it NEEDS not depending on the state of the economy. public servants don't add much productivity to the economy. the ones in canberra sure as hell don't
09:29am 30/04/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1192 posts
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09:33am 30/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1321 posts
Let's get this back on track without the personal attacks.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmYtX3cCcAAhKu1.jpg

Tone pls.

Howard and Costello fixed the last Labor mess in 2 years and repaid all debt in 10. Unless Hockey and Abbott grow a pair we will be in debt for decades.


They were in an extremely fortunate position and squandered that fortunate position with pork barreling and selloffs of public assets.
09:37am 30/04/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2265 posts
Reason: More doofus overload


Hahaha love it.
09:38am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21441 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-30/tony-abbott-reduces-maximum-ppl-payment/5419878

tonez has dropped the maximum parental leave payment to $50,000 and the maximum eligible salary to $100,000. finally a prime minister who listens! very reminiscent of john howard
09:38am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15524 posts

so government is basically this source of employment for people who otherwise would not have had jobs? government should employ the number of public servants it NEEDS not depending on the state of the economy. public servants don't add much productivity to the economy. the ones in canberra sure as hell don't


A government isn't a business and should not be run as a business. At any rate, you are right, they should only employ the number they need. What should be done and what has been done are two different things. Yes, they likely have too many employees at the moment, getting rid of them now isn't the right time, do it when the economy is stronger.


Unemployment benefits are immediately and almost totally re-circulated into the economy anyway. These people live from week to week and are pure consumers with 0 savings. It would probably hurt GDP to slash it lol.



this is a false economical argument, similar to the one that smashing windows to fix them again builds the economy. it builds one person's economy, the recipient of the benefit, but the money has been taken from another person who earned it themselves and was going to do something with it until government.


Not, it isn't like that at all. A window is a simple piece of glass, that does a specific thing. Obviously breaking it just to fix it is a waste. Unemployed people are far, far, far more complex. Not only that I would say that money spent on the local economy is much better utilized then money used to speculate on real estate properties. So using tax money to help the unemployed is better then not taking the tax money and having a large proportion of that money thrown into what would likely be real estate, which will only hurt the lower economy more.



tonez has dropped the maximum parental leave payment to $50,000 and the maximum eligible salary to $100,000. finally a prime minister who listens! very reminiscent of john howard


Yes, this is a good thing. Both a strategically sound political and economic move, as he was facing internal dissent for it and it made no real sense to have it at such large amounts. In a way it was a no brainer.



last edited by Tollaz0r! at 09:52:36 30/Apr/14
09:49am 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15038 posts
this is a false economical argument, similar to the one that smashing windows to fix them again builds the economy. it builds one person's economy, the recipient of the benefit, but the money has been taken from another person who earned it themselves and was going to do something with it until government.

Your comparison of unemployment benefits to the broken window fallacy is itself a straw man fallacy. Well done, porkchop.

There's nothing false about it at all. You seem to think that welfare allowances are a black hole of money which is objectively untrue. The cash isn't sitting in bank accounts, it immediately flows back into the economy.

Your argument here could be very equally applied to pretty much everything the Government does for the public good, and as such is vacuous and unworthy of further exploration.
Yes, this is a good thing. Both a strategically sound political and economic move, as he was facing internal dissent for it and it made no real sense to have it at such large amounts. In a way it was a no brainer.

Why not just leave the existing system in place? I thought tying it to the minimum wage was entirely sensible and appropriate and seemingly allowed a broader spectrum to benefit.

Tone's New Plan is curiously harsher than the ALP's to the 100-150k crowd, who seem to have gone from 18 weeks paid leave at minimum wage, to promises from Tone of making it rain money, to getting f*** all now. Considering that the average wage is 72k that's probably quite a few people getting a WTF moment this afternoon. Will the cutoff be indexed, or within a few years will you need to be under average wage to benefit?

It had to be changed though. 'Twas a silly plan that was seemingly invented ad hoc by the PM before the election.
10:26am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21443 posts
The cash isn't sitting in bank accounts, it immediately flows back into the economy.
.

the money spent by the window manufacturer flows back into the economy too. the broken window fallacy is about forced expenditure (i.e. govt expenditure) which diverts from the private expenditure choices people make. every time a forced expenditure occurs it diminishes the private person's ability to choose their own financial destiny, coincidentally exactly what Toll was posting about.

Every time govt institutes a program or spends taxes they are increasing the cost of living for private people by taking away from them money they could have used to pay for their cost of living. The question for voters is what policies they deem a reasonable objective to warrant use of private money.

I did not submit that all unemployment benefits should be removed, I suggested a limit of 2 years, which strikes a balance between a safety net and also curtailing the unreasonable use of taxpayer money. it also incentivises people to make decisions they would otherwise not consider, for example relocation or career change.
10:39am 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15039 posts
the money spent by the window manufacturer flows back into the economy too.

Do you even know what a straw man is?
10:41am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21444 posts
I know you know the words, "Straw Man".
10:42am 30/04/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2460 posts
Go where the work is, dont party or go on gap years, save most spare wages, have salary and disability insurance. Basically be a grown up.

How the hell can you move to a new place to find work with around $500 a fortnight, less in a lot of cases. Or afford salary of disability insurance?

Maybe you were lucky infi, but not everyone is. Have some empathy for those who are less fortunate and rely on government safety nets like disability, unemployment to survive. Because it's what it is, surviving. I'd barely call it enough to live comfortably on, despite what ACA/TT say about the "dole bludger" neighbour going on cruises and getting designer handbags.
10:48am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15525 posts

it diminishes the private person's ability to choose their own financial destiny, coincidentally exactly what Toll was posting about.


People having the ability to choose their own financial destiny is a double edged sword. If you have systems in place that allows people to enhance their financial position whilst at the same time diminishing the financial position of others how is that a good thing for a community?
I think you can guess what aspect I'm talking about, systems like negative gearing which allow speculative investment into real estate, on credit no less, forces those on lower wealth tiers to have to pay more for rent and mortgages due to higher real estate prices.
I think you can agree with me on this. Government intervention in this matter has lead over the long term to, what I would consider, unsustainable real estate prices.


I did not submit that all unemployment benefits should be removed, I suggested a limit of 2 years, which strikes a balance between a safety net and also curtailing the unreasonable use of taxpayer money. it also incentivises people to make decisions they would otherwise not consider, for example relocation or career change.


What happens to these people if they fail to make the wisest choices? What if they believe they are just applications away from getting a job and by moving they lose those potential offers then run out of time? What happens to these people? They don't go away, they are going to cost the government and tax payer is some manner. Do you want an increase in homeless people? Are you OK with having 2000 homeless people roaming Brisbane city begging for change? Do you want to see children on the street corner begging for your money?

You 2 year limit will be a fine idea, provided you have a strategy in place to tackle what comes after that. Don't fix half the problem, fix it all or leave it as it is.
10:53am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21445 posts
What happens to these people if they fail to make the wisest choices?


What happens if you bet on red and black comes up?
10:55am 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15526 posts

What happens if you bet on red and black comes up?


You lose the small amount of money you gambled with which you had already considered gone already.

We are not talking about some people walking into a Casino to have a good time and maybe come up with lucky win for the night.

We are talking about peoples LIVES, 20, 30, 50 years worth of life. You can't compare that to a simple gambling game. That is ludicrous and lacks compassion, inhumane would be a strong word.

So don't be stupid. You want to introduce a policy that WILL cause people, adults and children, to go homeless, for the sake of a sketchy budget emergency. Homeless people have a very hard time coming back from that and are almost completely unproductive for the community.
If you are going to introduce that policy, what would you do to clean up the mess it will leave? Fix the whole problem, not half of it.
11:02am 30/04/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3455 posts
tonez has dropped the maximum parental leave payment to $50,000 and the maximum eligible salary to $100,000. finally a prime minister who listens! very reminiscent of john howard
You don't understand though, he had a mandate for it!

Has Faceman coined the term TonLiar yet and posted youtubes of TonLiar saying one thing before the election and doing the opposite after?

I assume if he hasn't yet he will soon, he wouldn't want to be seen as inconsistent.
11:06am 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21446 posts
You lose the small amount of money you gambled with which you had already considered gone already.


It's an analogy for all of life Toll. In Australia, we seek the government to solve all of our problems. Even when we lose gambling.
11:17am 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15040 posts
I know you know the words, "Straw Man".

That's not a real response. I'll help since you don't seem to be able to work out what I'm saying.

In order for your stupid broken window fallacy to actually apply:

- The organisations benefiting from the economic activity would need to be the cause of the unemployment (ie the glazier breaking windows to create work). At the very least there would need to be an active agency generating unemployment for the purpose of generating the economic activity.
- Long-term unemployment would have to somehow be fixable problem rather than an inevitable force upon the economy.

The first is of course not true. The second is debatable but to date has never been achieved anywhere. There remain large numbers of long term unemployed in all states without social welfare programs covering them.

The point is NOT that paying the unemployed is a net benefit, of course it is a cost, a cost reliably overblown by blustering simpletons.This cost is quite significantly offset by the economic activity generated. The sudden withdrawal of 1.3B per year from the economy of very liquid cash would probably be a net negative for some time, even excluding the costs of increased crime etc.

The social costs would be enormous. There are probably at least 150,000 people in Australia literally unfit for work who would simply turn to petty crime to make up the lost income. The fact that you don't understand this or have any experience with this sort of person just shows you have no understanding of poverty or experience with it. Anyone who grew up in, lives at, or is at all familiar with the bottom spectrum of society knows who I am talking about.
It's an analogy for all of life Toll. In Australia, we seek the government to solve all of our problems. Even when we lose gambling.

More ridiculous, silly absolutism. If you weren't so f*****g serious I'd think you were a parody account sometimes.
11:49am 30/04/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11080 posts
deadlyf Im embarrassed by the last two weeks of Budget Baloney.
its been like a soap opera.

Some Government very soon has to take on the Aged Pension.
Its going to require both sides of Politics otherwise it wont work.
12:17pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15041 posts
http://i.imgur.com/mA0vS1y.png

Not a fan of dopey image macros, but this is quite interesting I thought.
12:18pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
650 posts
This post has been removed.
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12:41pm 30/04/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1818 posts
Not a fan of dopey image macros, but this is quite interesting I thought.


What about funny ones?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10314576_635732179849077_1077985060458410787_n.jpg
12:44pm 30/04/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19574 posts
hj just about lost his s*** hoggy
12:57pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15527 posts
I'm well aware you tried to use it as an analogy, it was a very poor one. We live in a rich country. We don't have to go homeless or let others go homeless due to poor decisions.

Is it not punishment enough to barely have enough money to eat, sleep and have shelter? Have you ever lived on such a tiny amount? Do you think these people enjoy seeing others enjoying their life doing activities that cost money, eating tasty foods, traveling the world? I bet they don't. I bet they are pretty f*****g unhappy and close to depression, but still worlds better than living homeless.

You are not giving them a free ride. You are giving them a compassionate helping hand even though they made bad decisions (and sometimes events out of their control). Australia CAN afford that and we should.


You are not solving their problem. They are still going to be living a poor life, they still have plenty of problems they have to solve. No need to kick em while their down infi.

So I say to you again, your policy as it stands will bring adults and children into homelessness. What are you going to do to mitigate this damage? I will not support such a policy if the end result is an increase in homelessness and disadvantaged people. Not cutting welfare now is not going to send Australia broke. So don't cut it, unless you have a full well rounded plan.

I'm also a little annoyed that the government is banging on about a 'budget emergency' and large cost blowouts, particularly aged pensions, yet hasn't explained why it is blowing out. Hopefully the National Commision of Audit due to be released this week will enlighten us a bit, not sure why they have taken their sweet time to release it to the public. IMO it should be released to the public when the PM gets it. It is after all for the benefit of the people yes?

Again, I want to know what policies the government has in place to address rising costs of food, water, electricity, fuel and real estate? All of which are greatly affecting people of middle to low levels of wealth, which is more than 50% of the nation, and the most vulnerable , the ones where welfare cuts hurt the most, are suffering the most from these rapidly increasing problems.

P.S. PUP is looking into this if you haven't noticed. He has his finger on the pulse and will trump the s*** out of Liberal/Labor if they don't get their finger out and start working on those problems.
01:07pm 30/04/14 Permalink
groganus
Brisbane, Queensland
2855 posts
Again, I want to know what policies the government has in place to address rising costs of food, water, electricity, fuel and real estate? All of which are greatly affecting people of middle to low levels of wealth, which is more than 50% of the nation, and the most vulnerable , the ones where welfare cuts hurt the most, are suffering the most from these rapidly increasing problems.

P.S. PUP is looking into this if you haven't noticed. He has his finger on the pulse and will trump the s*** out of Liberal/Labor if they don't get their finger out and start working on those problems.


This is the only thing said in this thread that I can completely 100% agree with.
01:15pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
923 posts
1 thing off the top of my head = remove the carbon tax which made the price of everything rise.
01:57pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15528 posts
And fair enough, the carbon tax wasn't the best plan and removing it was fine. Just don't over inflate how much it caused prices to rise (which wasn't much).
So that is 1 policy to make a slight adjustment, that isn't enough to base an election on though ( trollol but it was :( )
02:20pm 30/04/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1532 posts
if you didn't understand how the carbon tax actually worked and what the funds were being used for you would want it scrapped for sure
02:40pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
924 posts

Also I think this language that you and others use like "the vulnerable" etc etc in regards to the middle class is pretty ridiculous. You imply that they are 2 dollars away from living in a box while in reality australia is a wealthy country and so is the majority of it's people.

This isn't the u.s we don't have millions of people in poverty or anywhere near what could be considered poor. Yes $30,000 a year to live in would be extremely hard but it's not struggling to eat hard, you still have a decent life.

I currently earn $34,000 a year. I party every weekend and I'm in Thailand for a holiday. I'm so vulnerable and poor aren't I? Lol.

The government could do a lot more to reduce costs for people if we had the right economic system. If we had a very small federal government we could reduce federal taxes which would be a boom for business which means more jobs people are paid more and people have more money in their pockets.

Deregulate the process to start up a grocery store to introduce more competition to the grocery sector, it currently takes 6 years to be able to operate.
Get rid of negative gearing
Get rid of the carbon tax
Cut red and green tape that restrict new job creation

In other news, the greens are trying to do the blackmail trick they did to labor issuing a list of demands. http://m.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/greens-list-demands-in-exchange-for-support-of-abbotts-new-leave-scheme/story-fn59niix-1226900917901

IMPLEMENT OUR SOCIALISM OR ELSE


02:57pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15042 posts
^ who said the middle class were vulnerable?
03:16pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37769 posts
I currently earn $34,000 a year. I party every weekend and I'm in Thailand for a holiday. I'm so vulnerable and poor aren't I? Lol.


not everyone wants to live with their parents forever bro.
03:17pm 30/04/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1819 posts
Government beating up budget crisis to sell desired cuts

Professor Raja Junankar of the Australian Business School at the University of New South Wales is boldly asking, "Crisis? What crisis?" He says talk in recent days of a looming economic crisis is a myth that defies the health of the Australian economy, especially when compared to other developed economies around the world. "I think the present Government and previous government have just been beating up the idea of a budget crisis,"
ABC News Website
03:24pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15529 posts
Ahh, Brool, you are finally starting to make sense. Start dropping the buzz words like "Cut red and green tape that restrict new job creation" This means nothing, it is all fluff.

"Get rid of negative gearing
Get rid of the carbon tax"

These mean something, not fluff.

Your $34K/year. How much of that goes to rent (or mortgage)? How much of that goes to saving for the future?

Now when I refer to the vulnerable, I mean those on 30K or less, generally 15K or less. To me middle class are people with a combined family income of about $80k or so, preferably with a mortgage.

The middle class are the hardest to deal with, they have the potential to be big spenders and also the potential to be big savers. You want them to save/pay mortgage and spend in about equal amounts. They should save/pay mortgage in order to prevent future reliance on aged pensions, yet should spend so that they contribute to the flow of the economy. A parties policies should be balanced on that idea.
The lower income earners have trouble saving, they are pretty much locked into spending, particularly those with families. A Family should be considered by the government as an investment into the future of the country, the long term future and should be treated as an investment, thus things like Family Tax Benefit should not be considered 'a handout' but as an investment. Like all good investments you would expect a healthy return greater than the investment.

03:25pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15530 posts

I currently earn $34,000 a year. I party every weekend and I'm in Thailand for a holiday. I'm so vulnerable and poor aren't I? Lol.



not everyone wants to live with their parents forever bro.


That is unfair Spook, saving money by staying with the family is an excellent strategy and should be practiced more. It is the only viable action to take if real estate prices are not reigned in, grandparents living in the same house as the grand-kids can save a good amount of money both through savings of redundant costs (like land rates) and through childcare services offered by grandparents.
That being said, those living with their parents should not assume that people earning 30k or less have that option. Nor should be assume that those with families have the option of living with their higher generation parents.
03:36pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37770 posts
i would definately spend more if i had another stimulus package.
03:37pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15531 posts
HurricaneJim,

Whilst the numbers of Australia's state of economic (and other indicators) health from resource such as http://stats.oecd.org/ show Australia to be in a good position, it doesn't take into account the state of the future budget. The 'budget emergency' is, as far as we are allowed to know, enshrined by the National Commision of Audit, of which the general public is yet to see.
Until that comes out and is heavily scrutinised by experts on such things you, I, and professors of a university cannot really say there is a problem or not.

Essentially, the current government is pushing their policies on information the public is not privy too. This, to me, is not a good way to govern people. We should know everything that the government in power knows when it comes to the economy. We should not have to take it on faith that we have a budget emergency based on numbers the government, for all we know, made up.

In other words, the commission should be released to the public to show us where we are at THEN the politicians should spruce their policies. Not the otherway around which seems to be the case.
03:44pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
653 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
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04:01pm 30/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24189 posts
Just for the people who aren't insane and typing a lot of words for the benefit of those who are. You're dealing with fundamentalist libertarians here. It's the exact same thing as trying to reason with young earth creationists. They've bought big into their little cult and the more rationality and facts you bring into the argument the harder they'll flail and froth.

So keep it up because it's making for some good reading.
04:12pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37771 posts
That is unfair Spook, saving money by staying with the family is an excellent strategy and should be practiced more


i didnt do it, so no one should.

i had to work hard and slightly cut back on my partying to buy my own house!!!

also, happy birthday bro
04:36pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15532 posts
Hay thanks man.
04:49pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1322 posts

Ohhhh, hopefully they actually go through with this.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/fuel-tax-credit-firmly-in-sights-of-coalitions-budget-razor-gang?CMP=twt_gu

The Abbott government is considering a measure that would prompt another vicious backlash to its May budget: cutting back fuel tax rebates for miners and farmers and other agricultural businesses that are worth more than $3bn a year.

Senior government sources have confirmed the budget razor gang has the fuel tax credit (formerly known as the diesel fuel rebate) “firmly in its sights” – a scheme that rebates miners and farmers and others for the off-road use of diesel.

Another source said the rebate would be pared back for claims above a certain threshold, perhaps once $100,000 in tax credits have been claimed in a year, which would spare small farmers and small-time diesel fuel users such as fishers, some irrigators and Indigenous communities, but hit big miners and large agricultural concerns.


04:59pm 30/04/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4952 posts
i would definately spend more if i had another stimulus package.


i bet brool is getting his package stimulated over there ;-)
05:32pm 30/04/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1364 posts
Who came up with the term razor gang?
05:34pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
654 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Cry about post being removed
Send Private Message
05:35pm 30/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24191 posts
You really need to cry some more. You're a unique case in that I think the mods may actually nuke your posts because they don't like you. Guess there are some downsides to being a stupid unrelenting f***wit after all?
05:37pm 30/04/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1365 posts
There is also the lengthy irrelevant diatribes he likes to go on.


WRONG AGAIN, TIME FOR SOME QGL TRUTHBOMBS THAI STYLE
05:41pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15533 posts
I must admit I was curious as to what he wrote.
05:59pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15044 posts
Haha such bombs, so truth. Wow
06:14pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37772 posts
I must admit I was curious as to what he wrote.


i wasnt, coz it would have been wrong and drivel
06:15pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
655 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Not Relevant
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06:50pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15534 posts
I believe we are tax based on income levels, do you mean something different?
07:07pm 30/04/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21447 posts
Again, I want to know what policies the government has in place to address rising costs of food, water, electricity, fuel and real estate? All of which are greatly affecting people of middle to low levels of wealth, which is more than 50% of the nation, and the most vulnerable , the ones where welfare cuts hurt the most, are suffering the most from these rapidly increasing problems.


If you want to know what gubment can do for you (as apart from what you can do for yourself, like saving money, buying less s***, study more, get a promotion, buy a passive investment, buying a cheaper house, don't buy that pool, living in a cheaper town, having one car instead of 2, having less kids, take fewer holidays to bali and p***et etc etc)

Government could:

- remove all foreign investment control
- remove the carbon tax
- remove all trading hours
- privatise all electricity distribution and generation
- get the new and improved NBN finished asap
- deregulate town planning and enable much larger land releases
- delete 90% of environmental controls
- remove all government run professional and industry accreditation bodies
- remove 90% of labor regulation (retain the NES)
- scrap the commonwealth department of education
- scrap the commonwealth department of health
- actually scrap all commonwealth departments except for attorney general, defence, centrelink and treasury.
- implement a flat tax of 20% and a flat GST of 20% including food and healthcare
- means test all medical services
- means test all childcare services
- improve the private health rebate
- reintroduce superannuation incentives
- include the value of the primary residence in means testing (excluding a basee amount derived from the capital city median house value).
- remove all industry subsidies
- remove all political perks and slash politician salaries (to think once upon a time politicians had a day job)

By the time all of this is done, the Commonwealth budget should be less than $150b and we would have a lot more prosperous and fun life free of government busy bodies.

The most important reform is labor deregulation so low skilled people can actually get a job.

This country is regulated to f*** so the best answer to your question is earn more money to pay through the ass for everything.
07:28pm 30/04/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1820 posts
Essentially, the current government is pushing their policies on information the public is not privy too. This, to me, is not a good way to govern people. We should know everything that the government in power knows when it comes to the economy. We should not have to take it on faith that we have a budget emergency based on numbers the government, for all we know, made up.

In other words, the commission should be released to the public to show us where we are at THEN the politicians should spruce their policies. Not the otherway around which seems to be the case.


Unfortunately, Abbot was screaming about incompetent government from Day 1 of his being elected by Peter Slipper into the Fuhrer-ship of the Local Nazi Party.

1 thing off the top of my head = remove the carbon tax which made the price of everything rise.


Retail electricity prices rises by approximately 80% over the past five years, 7% of that was the Carbon Price. The other 73% was the Privatised Energy Companies failing to invest in infrastructure and, in some cases, over-investing in supply when there was no demand. Whilst someone may conclude that removing the price of carbon will reduce their power bill, it won't. I would say your power bill will still go up.

In any case Der Fuhrer could have reduced the price to 0% on the 8th September 2013 without legislation, he didn't. This is simply a ideological fight between the Right and Left of politics.

Government could:

- remove all foreign investment control
- remove the carbon tax
- remove all trading hours
- privatise all electricity distribution and generation
- get the new and improved NBN finished asap
- deregulate town planning and enable much larger land releases
- delete 90% of environmental controls
- remove all government run professional and industry accreditation bodies
- remove 90% of labor regulation (retain the NES)
- scrap the commonwealth department of education
- scrap the commonwealth department of health
- actually scrap all commonwealth departments except for attorney general, defence, centrelink and treasury.
- implement a flat tax of 20% and a flat GST of 20% including food and healthcare
- means test all medical services
- means test all childcare services
- improve the private health rebate
- reintroduce superannuation incentives
- include the value of the primary residence in means testing (excluding a basee amount derived from the capital city median house value).
- remove all industry subsidies
- remove all political perks and slash politician salaries (to think once upon a time politicians had a day job)

By the time all of this is done, the Commonwealth budget should be less than $150b and we would have a lot more prosperous and fun life free of government busy bodies.

The most important reform is labor deregulation so low skilled people can actually get a job.


No just remove gun control.
07:31pm 30/04/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19576 posts
i got past the obvious troll:

- get the new and improved NBN finished asap


i had to stop here:

- delete 90% of environmental controls
07:34pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15535 posts


If you want to know what gubment can do for you (as apart from what you can do for yourself, like saving money, buying less s***, study more, get a promotion, buy a passive investment, buying a cheaper house, don't buy that pool, living in a cheaper town, having one car instead of 2, having less kids, take fewer holidays to bali and p***et etc etc)


Just so you know infi, I've got a good chunk of money in the bank offsetting mortgage for my relatively cheap house 35km line from CBD, I have a degree that has given a fairly well paying job for the field I'm in. I'm working on the promotion, a passive investment that I could afford was solar and I've done so to my fullest capacity, most other investments are too risky for the returns when the mortgage has a standard 'return' for much less risk. I sold my car and bought a motorbike which has saved significant money, our family makes do with a 2nd hand Elantra that would be considered slightly too small for our family and was purchased at less then the market rate. To move to a cheaper town would very likely result in a substantially lower paying job so the net result would be less wealth. Can't have less kids, no returnsies, I think 2 is an acceptable number. My holidays are very cheap thanks to my coupon queen partner, no bali trips for me.
Our house uses less water than the average of 1.5 people, we use about 1/2 of the average electricity of a house of our number (that was before solar). I grow some of the food we eat.

There really isn't much more I can do to reduce our costs. Our entertainment budget is quite small, that includes money for eating out (ha like that ever happens) giving the kids extra curricular activities as best we can and so on. This tiny amount of money left over after budgeting essentials is what the local economy gets.

Now that your assumptions of inefficient money wasting have been put to rest, I can agree with a good portion of the rest of your post at face value. I'd have to look deeper into some to asses the overall implications of some of them.

20% flat tax and 20% GST.. that is interesting. Would you also abolish most of the tax deduction options available, the options many consider 'loop holes' for the rich?

- deregulate town planning and enable much larger land releases

This I can certainly agree with, at least partially.

- delete 90% of environmental controls

not so sure of that one.

- remove all government run professional and industry accreditation bodies

Except those were loss of life and dangerous operations are realistic potentials.

- scrap the commonwealth department of health
- scrap the commonwealth department of education

Health care and education are extremely risky to mess with. Unfortunately any changes to these can only be done in small increments, even though we can both agree they need a big overall. Do you dare risk the education of several generations and thus future outcome of your nation on a big sweeping change?
I see a lot of old people around in various degrees of pain and suffering, I couldn't accept that they don't get health care because they couldn't afford it, considering most of them worked hard to get the country where it is. Can't risk health care.


Mean testing everything absof*****glutly, why labor hasn't implemented that I don't know.
- include the value of the primary residence in means testing (excluding a basee amount derived from the capital city median house value).
As above.

- reintroduce superannuation incentives
Absolutely, and educate senior school students in it.

- remove all industry subsidies

Hell yes, that'll hurt for a while though, again do it when things are stronger.

- remove all political perks and slash politician salaries (to think once upon a time politicians had a day job)

Haha, we all want this just because they are politicians! But yes, how can someone who earns so much really understand where those who earn a fraction of that roll? They need to feel the changes they make, not just watch it on TV.

So yes, whilst many of those are good options, I'm not so sure about others. Even the good options would need careful consideration of the ramifications both good and bad.


07:57pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7204 posts
- scrap the commonwealth department of health
- scrap the commonwealth department of education
Why? It'd be better to scrap these at the state level rather than the federal level. If I go to the hospital with a broken arm, they don't ask "Did you break your arm in NSW?". I'm pretty sure 1+1=2 in every state as well. State departments are pointless duplication.
08:36pm 30/04/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6814 posts
Libor / Laberals

/end thread
08:49pm 30/04/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1323 posts
Libor / Laberals

/end thread


This.
09:00pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
928 posts
Libor / Laberals

/end thread


I think you'll find that most people posting here are more far left than labor like vash, who is a die hard socialist. So it's not really labor/liberal it's socialist vs everyone else

Why? It'd be better to scrap these at the state level rather than the federal level. If I go to the hospital with a broken arm, they don't ask "Did you break your arm in NSW?". I'm pretty sure 1+1=2 in every state as well. State departments are pointless duplication.


/facepalm

State departments run the hospitals, the federal health department doesn't.

I can't believe someone would be so oblivious to this.
09:41pm 30/04/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24192 posts
He was suggesting that state departments stop running the hospitals and that the federal government start running the hospitals. Ironic that you'd accuse someone of being oblivious to a piece of government trivia when you were oblivious to the meaning of a few simple words that were right in front of you.
09:52pm 30/04/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
929 posts


The one where if you have a problem with you country's finances you just tax all the high income earners a bit more apparently. Do you have a point you were trying to make?


He said "state departments are pointless" which implies they do nothing when infact it's stet departments that actually manage state hospitals and it's the federal department that barely does anything and is pointless.

He got it around the wrong way.
12:44am 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1163 posts
This post has been removed.
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12:53am 01/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37683 posts
By the time all of this is done, the Commonwealth budget should be less than $150b and we would have a lot more prosperous and fun life free of government busy bodies.
How on earth do you reconcile building the NBN with everything else in your list?
01:15am 01/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3938 posts
Yes a typical liberal would say sell off the NBN.
01:41am 01/05/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2799 posts
saving money, buying less s***, study more, get a promotion, buy a passive investment, buying a cheaper house, don't buy that pool, living in a cheaper town, having one car instead of 2, having less kids, take fewer holidays to bali and p***et


Also - Don't want to live near friends, don't go out with friends or family, don't be disabled, black, poor, uneducated, an immigrant, homeless, in poverty or otherwise already significantly disadvantaged, etc
05:04am 01/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37775 posts
the dude that does the finance from comsec just said on sunrise, that if the government took on no NEW spending, the government would be back in surplus in 12 months.

no additional cuts or "levys" required.
07:24am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21450 posts
That's total bulls***, we have a $30b deficit so he's saying tax revenue would increase $30b in 12 months. What a head.

How on earth do you reconcile building the NBN with everything else in your list?


It's started now, you can't unscramble an egg. Australia needs better internet. It's just that NBNCo should never have been created. Now it has been, deal with it.

^ Are you sad your boyfriend dropped you?


how the hell is this guy not banned?
08:11am 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1665 posts
^ Are you sad for Brool too?

BTW infi, not one thing you've posted makes any sense yet. How long do I need to wait before you do?
08:32am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21451 posts
I am sad that you don't post anything constructive, it's mad ranting that is completely unconnected to the forum topic, and you do not get banned.

BTW infi, not one thing you've posted makes any sense yet. How long do I need to wait before you do?


says you, meanwhile I have been having an intelligent discussion with others. take your meds.
08:34am 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1666 posts
^ 2 things. Are you the mod now? Secondly, why would I post anything constructive when you and brool constantly parrot the same bulls***.even after you've both been torn a new a*******.
08:38am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21452 posts
regardless of your invalid opinion, why would you then post the bulls*** nonsense that you do?
08:40am 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1667 posts
Cause that's exactly what your s*** amounts to and deserves. I'm not interested in holding a conversation with you two.
08:40am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21453 posts
Cause that's exactly what your s*** amounts to and deserves. I'm not interested in holding a conversation with you two.


then why post at all? are you a troll?
08:42am 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1668 posts
Oh gawd. Give it up infi. Give it up. You're starting to act/sound like Newman. WAAAAAAH WAAAAAAH!
08:44am 01/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37685 posts
It's started now, you can't unscramble an egg. Australia needs better internet. It's just that NBNCo should never have been created. Now it has been, deal with it.
It doesn't seem aligned with the rest of your stuff though. Like, why not just declare it a sunk cost and forget about it (unless you believe the economic benefit blah blah blah that Labor babbled on about).
09:23am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21454 posts
Billions have already been spent, that is a very large sunk cost. No private operator would ever "buy" those sunk costs because they are worth nothing to someone else. It's best to get it finished ASAP because the NBN Co model has irreparably damaged the deregulated telco industry in Australia. PLUS NBN Co is locked into contracts for pit access and copper decommissioning with Telstra....
09:27am 01/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1194 posts
This post has been removed.
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09:39am 01/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
7876 posts
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09:41am 01/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37777 posts

That's total bulls***, we have a $30b deficit so he's saying tax revenue would increase $30b in 12 months. What a head.

considering craig james works for commsec and appears on tv talking about money matters every day, id say he knows what hes on about.

he also has the most rocking 6 pack ive ever seen.

i think i just got the gays for him.

this dude has you covered in every aspect infi bro
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/03/15/1226022/048252-craig-james.jpghttp://
10:57am 01/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19579 posts
considering craig james works for commsec and appears on tv talking about money matters every day


lol
10:59am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21455 posts
that doesn't explain how he thinks a $30b deficit could be fixed in one year considering revenue growth is not even expected to be $30n for the next year and considering without new spending the existing spending still indexes at 2.5% per annum. so mr james is way wrong. but it's a nice simple headline that someone like spook will latch onto and quote in his internet posts.

what mr james is suggesting would also require Abbott to scrap the NDIS and Gonski spending. Are you in favour of that spook?
11:02am 01/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15046 posts
then why post at all? are you a troll?

TIL if you don't like talking to infi and Brool, you default to troll status.

Unsure if Alannis ironing or not.
11:06am 01/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37778 posts
what mr james is suggesting would also require Abbott to scrap the NDIS and Gonski spending. Are you in favour of that spook?


that is correct. id rather we put those items on hold (not scrap), than tax poor working people like myself.
11:10am 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21456 posts
^ Are you sad your boyfriend dropped you?


Hog do you consider this a useless trolling comment?

Secondly, why would I post anything constructive when you and brool constantly parrot the same bulls***.


is this not an admission of trolling?

Hog are you fine with scrapping NDIS as spook suggested above?
11:10am 01/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37779 posts
not scrapping bro, putting on hold until we have this HORRIBLE DEFICIT sorted out.

(i personalyl dont mind a bit of debt, lets have NDIS and some debt)
11:20am 01/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15047 posts
is this not an admission of trolling?

Hog are you fine with scrapping NDIS as spook suggested above?

I missed that one, checked the page couldn't see it. Got a quote so I can punch him in the fase?

NDIS rant warning ... The NDIS is a fantastic idea. Its just stupid that in Australia your QOL depends on how you gained your disability and where you live. How can you have a situation where young fully mindful adults are stuck in dementia wards, and people wistfully dream of an alternate reality where they were smashed by a bus instead of getting a disease? How the f*** does that even work?

That said money don't grow on trees, but I have no problem declaring that the NDIS should be a higher priority than paid parental leave (especially if its being paid above minimum wage) or extra warplanes when we're not at war, not going to war, and have nobody to shoot at with them. There's a bajillion better places to raise or save money to avoid renegging on the bi-partisan agreement and F*****G ELECTION PROMISE to implement this much-needed reform.
11:27am 01/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8463 posts
Chief economists reckon that the coalition is not doing this for any good economical reason, only furthering their endless political posturing regarding the budget and Labor.

Australia's chief economists have warned Joe Hockey not to rush the budget back to surplus, saying the urgency of the deficit was being exaggerated for political purposes.

Interviews with four chief economists at banks and financial institutions revealed a common scepticism with the “budget emergency” described by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and his Treasurer, Mr Hockey. All economists cited Australia’s “enviable” budgetary position compared to other rich countries, and none thought the speculated “deficit levy” on high income earners was an intelligent way to repair the budget.
12:27pm 01/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19582 posts
of course it is exaggerated

budget emergency implies the country is in a financial crisis similar to some of the euro economies at the height of the GFC, requiring emergency bail outs right now

fact is, it isn't even close to that
12:31pm 01/05/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10263 posts
This thread is roffles.

Government debt by world standards as a percentage of GDP is tiny.
The last debt was paid off by really high tax receipts from some exceptional years in a very small number of industries (not by clever management, in fact it was the deregulation of our markets that occurred a decade before that had a larger impact).

The LNP scare mongered a debt that wasn't that bad, there wasn't that much fat to cut after all. But because they made these crazy promises to get us back in the black we will need to increase tax receipts... either a new mining boom or ... or we get taxed more.

But you can tell the debt wasn't that bad because we are still planning on spending on luxuries like fighter jets that can't shoot anything and rich mummies to be mummies.
12:45pm 01/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3939 posts
If Australia has a budget emergency, i wonder what the libs think of America/Japan's budget? Lol.
It's entirely a propaganda machine, masterfully executed by the libs i must say. It won them the election, thanks to Murdoch as well. he got his bit in the deal.
01:38pm 01/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
658 posts
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01:46pm 01/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1535 posts
im amazed that any one from the Liberal party are even allowed to talk about matters that are on budget. But of course! How silly of me! They haven't put in the right foundations yet.

With that in mind Be prepared for when Abbot declares "War on Poverty" Or "War on Money" or something like that. Then he puts some army general in charge of it and then when matters of finance and budgets come up they can just ignore any questions until their weekly press conference (held once a month erm maybe) where they march out and say: "Sorry cant talk about that - its an on budget matter".

But sillyness aside - it is a trend with this government to exaggerate "threats" that don't exist (mainly because they did to win the election with huge front page scare spreads) - like the flood of refugees that are going to swamp Australia. Doesn't exist. Budget emergency. Doesn't exist.

It is just the Liberals control tactics at work on the weak willed and simple minded.
01:55pm 01/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1168 posts
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02:10pm 01/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15538 posts
As I said, the Liberal Strategy was using the the tried and tested fear factor to scare people into voting the buggers out. Labor was in a really s*** position and the fear campaigned worked quite well. What should be a red flag to the Liberal supporters is even though Labor was in such a bad position, they still didn't do as well as they should have during the election. They should have smashed it in, instead it was an OK win, on preferences.

Since fear was used to win the election, Liberal have to move that fear. It wont simply vanish, not for a long time anyway. So they pushed it to the future. Remember a good chunk of the pre-election hubbub was about how bad the budget/economy was then, when they won the election and information about how the current Australian economy is actually pretty solid they shifted the fear into the future about how bad it WILL be. So current fear is pushed to future fear, nice.

Time to transform that fear into something else, I doubt liberal will win twice in a row on fear. So in about 1-2 years the rhetoric will shift from ZOMG we are boned in the future, to HA! we fixed it and we are going to be able to cut taxes and give out stuff to you all you voters in about ... o 1 -2 years conveniently around election time. Fear transformed into Hope.

But Clive will shoe horn his way in, blind side Labor and Liberal if he is left unchecked.
04:01pm 01/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
659 posts
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10:17pm 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21458 posts
Our debt is way lower than other countries, so we can afford to send it much higher.
10:26pm 01/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8464 posts
Basic economic theory is that during a downturn a government saves more than it would lose to reduced taxes and increased welfare, not to mention lost future revenue, by ensuring that money stays flowing through the economy, which is to be paid for in the next upturn when revenue rises again. A debt which is a tiny percentage of total revenue might be very easy to pay off when just a tiny increase in revenue occurs.

If you disagree with the maths (I don't know if it's solid myself), then take it up with economists, but don't pretend that it's not there and that the idea is simply to spend with ever increasing debt.
10:47pm 01/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
11366 posts
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10:56pm 01/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1537 posts
Nerf im not sure economists are the right people to talk to about the economy ;p

Now when they talk about tightening the belt i can't help thinking of the monetary bill attached to the "off shore solution" - how much has that little operation clocked up now? And of course the monetary bill is only the tip of the iceberg - the ethical and moral bill will, and is, costing us for example: what is unfolding on manus island as that investigation into the death of the refugee goes on. Terrible.

IF the liberals can shrug off that kind of ethical implications of their callous refugee "solution" what will it do with the budget "solution" and welfare recipients - are they too to be Persona non grata?
02:11am 02/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37686 posts
Our debt is way lower than other countries, so we can afford to send it much higher.
So do you think that the Liberal's purported plans to save money but cutting back on all these important programmes is a douche manoeuvre?

On an unrelated note, how funny is it to announce a $12b purchase of broken jet fighters we don't need, right before unleashing a media frenzy because of the proposed cutbacks.
02:25am 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15539 posts
Australias debt to GDP ratio will increase it GDP decreases, you know to less mining or something. Also if the debt to GDP will decrease if GDP goes up. Pretty obvious I know, but sometimes these things are forgotten.
07:38am 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15540 posts
Well you have seen with Infi, who I would assume is a typical strong Liberal Supporter and probably inline with Liberal Policy makers, is that they don't seem to care about people going homeless/having a really bad time if they don't make good intelligent decisions. So that says something about moral issues, that is beyond tough love.
07:41am 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21460 posts
So do you think that the Liberal's purported plans to save money but cutting back on all these important programmes is a douche manoeuvre?


nope, there is plenty of free money, and as I have said many times before, handouts should be for those on the bones of their ass.

On an unrelated note, how funny is it to announce a $12b purchase of broken jet fighters we don't need, right before unleashing a media frenzy because of the proposed cutbacks.


you may say they are "broken" and that we "don't need" them but generals who are experts in warfare and national security are asking for them.

is that they don't seem to care about people going homeless/having a really bad time if they don't make good intelligent decisions.


the government is a safety net for people who have nothing, aside from that, figure it out.
07:58am 02/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15048 posts
you may say they are "broken" and that we "don't need" them but generals who are experts in warfare and national security are asking for them.

For what purpose? Why is the original allotment insufficient for our requirements? Who are we shooting at?

Experts in lots of fields ask for lots of things from the Government (F*****G LOL NBN F*****G LOL) and you're far less sympathetic about it.

Mt favourite part of the commission of audit is that they declared that they just don't think that Australia is that crook. That's a wonderfully narrow and stupid perspective and makes me wonder what basis the rest of the report is grounded in. Lots of people like me have to attend a GP several times per year and have no choice in the matter, so the nicely GP bulk bills you to save you the out of pocket.
He is also considering changing the way the government pays doctors to treat people with a chronic illness, switching from a fee-for-service model to one that pays doctors for a health outcome.

That's f*****g great. I have an incurable degenerative disease with limited efficacy treatment options. F*** it, no money in treating that s***, nurse, bring me someone with something curable pls?
08:07am 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21462 posts
How do YOU know they "broken" and "not necessary". What information have you analyzed to make your decision? I am relying on the Minister for Defence.
08:11am 02/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15049 posts
How do YOU know they "broken" and "not necessary". What information have you analyzed to make your decision? I am relying on the Minister for Defence.

Who are you talking to? I just want to know WHY we need to spend billions on extra new warplanes during peacetime and a BUDGET EMERGENCY. Seems like a fair question to me.

You seem to rely on Ministers' opinions and decisions when they are blue, but s*** all over them when they are red. Would you EVER have made a trusting-the-Government remark like that if it was an ALP Minister lol?
08:17am 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21463 posts
It's Defence. Should it really matter who is in government? I want our armed forces equipped properly.
08:18am 02/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15050 posts
It's Defence. Should it really matter who is in government? I want our armed forces equipped properly.

So in infi-land defence expenditures no longer need to be justified or should even be questioned by the tax payer regardless of the budget position. The General gets what the General wants?

Meanwhile we dismantle universal health care against the backdrop of a blooming military-industrial complex. I'm getting a sense of deja vu here, f***ed if I can think of why this all seems so familiar..
08:20am 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1670 posts
^ President Eisenhower's speech on leaving office maybe Hoggy?
08:30am 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
11370 posts
This post has been removed.
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08:31am 02/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15051 posts
eh, quoted deleted. Just ping me if you like.
08:53am 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21465 posts
Wtf admin
08:55am 02/05/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10266 posts
Um infi ...

US Government report.
clicky

The Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) predicts delivery of warfighting capabilities could be delayed by as much as 13 months. Delays of this magnitude will likely limit the warfighting capabilities that are delivered to support the military services’ initial operational capabilities—the first of which is scheduled for July 2015—and at this time it is not clear what those specific capabilities will be because testing is still ongoing.


The things can't fire anything yet, and at this stage they don't have a solid date for when it might!

In the conclusion:
if software testing continues to be delayed, if funding falls short of expectations, or if unit cost targets cannot be met, DOD may have to make decisions about whether to proceed with production as planned with less capable aircraft or to alter the production rate. Also, if reliability falls short of goals, DOD may have to make decisions about other ways to reduce sustainment costs, such as reduced flying hours.


Yeah... sounds exactly like what we want. And the Canadians are getting cold feet on it, what happens if them and a few more "partners" pull out. Costs go up....

*edit*
http://www.ausairpower.net/jsf.html

And this interview from a US military analyst, even though talks up the predicted capabilities of the plane....
the aircraft may not be best suited for the military options Australia has found itself undertaking in recent years


The argument the minister knows is weak. The current minister is a mining laywer. No doubt a smart man, but I would hardly think a military expert.

And I would think this Lberal back bencher would be far more qualified.
SMH Article

Backbencher's wiki page
09:17am 02/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15052 posts
Hhaha be funny if the 'secret intel' we don't have is that the Canadians want out, and the US has told asked us to buy their allotment.
09:51am 02/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3940 posts
The jets were a waste of money. especially during a "budget emergency"
We have an ally network to ensure invasions do not happen. Sure, we do need to share the load of military expenditure amongst Nato countries, but $12 billion for new planes is excessive considering our minor impact on military operations.
It was in the pipeline? already in the budget? Remove it or reduce it from the budget if you're making cuts everywhere. Why not cut military at all? It's ludicrous.
10:16am 02/05/14 Permalink
Zy
Gold Coast, Queensland
2315 posts
Buy F15s imo ... sure they're old and the F22 probably kills them, but damn they're sexeh.
10:21am 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1834 posts
Must be hard debating with someone who's every second post gets nuked.

High five everyone. What a glorious win.
11:00am 02/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3941 posts
you cant debate with a liberal voter. they're as indoctrinated as much as your average north korean citizen. I cant blame them though with the amount of spin, lies and propaganda going around before the election.
11:06am 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1835 posts
"There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax.

He who is without sin..
11:09am 02/05/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4957 posts
for the planes debate Four Corners did a great story on them a while ago

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

and for the overall budget debate this should answer everything;

11:09am 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15541 posts
Taken from the report itself:


The current mix of tax collections, along with our exposure to movements in the terms of trade, impose significant risks to the medium-term revenue outlook and increases uncertainty around revenue forecasts.


Keep that in mind when the government babbles on about forecasts.
11:48am 02/05/14 Permalink
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3243 posts
In regards to the F35, both the ALP and LNP agreed to that, so there's probably no point arguing over that.

As far as everything else is concerned, I would vote ALP the vast majority of the time, but I think there are some structrual problems with the budget and the amount of taxes that are collected. There needs to be a more wide ranging review that's completed that can look at things like income tax levels, or the GST. The problem is it's difficult for any government to have this discussion without the public becoming all f***tarded and the opposition at the time leaping on it with fear mongering.

I believe there need to be changes, I think the LNP will make some changes with their hands tied because of all the election promises they made, but ultimately I don't think there's an emergency, I think we can take the time to phase it changes and deal with things slowly. That's where I think I disagree the most with the LNP, as they seem to be fearing fear mongering at the moment. Oh, and I probably disagree with some of places they're taking money out of, yet we'll have a new PPL scheme!!! WTF
12:02pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15542 posts
So the basic overview of the report is, we need to tweak our spendings, on the assumption we receive tax cuts over the years.


On the revenue side, it is assumed that tax receipts will rise in line with a strengthening economy, with the tax to GDP ratio recovering to normal levels. Once tax receipts reach 24 per cent of GDP — which is around the average level of tax receipts over the period from 2000 to the lead up to the global financial crisis — they are assumed to remain at that level.

This reflects a critical assumption that increased tax collections arising from bracket creep (as wages growth pushes taxpayers towards higher tax brackets) are partially returned by the government in the form of periodic income tax cuts. This is the established practice of Commonwealth governments over many decades.


Basically they are assuming we hit and maintain a 25% GDP tax revenue.

So the unsustainable "Budget Emergency" is not a f*****g emergency. Yeah it is unsustainable and will slowly increase our debt. It makes sense to change the momentum a bit to sort it out.

Interestingly most of the spending increases doesn't start until around 2017/2018, just after election time. Keep that in mind when 1 party blames another for increased spending during their term.


It seems to me, it doesn't really matter which of our two major governments are in power, they are both required to do very similar things. Interesting NBN doesn't really seem to impact much..
12:23pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15543 posts
The National Commission of Audit is surprisingly easy to read, in a nice HTML format too. I encourage everyone to have at least a read of section 4, Here.
12:27pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1837 posts
Don't need to worry about reading stuff. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. - No amount of knowing about it and protest will stop it.

Lib, Labor, Palmer - Whoever runs the country will do the same s***. That's why these debates are more pointless than console vs pc debates.
12:50pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1671 posts
JULIA Gillard did not lie to us before the last election. A lie is a deliberate statement of a falsehood. The liar is very conscious of the misleading nature of what they are saying.

This was not the case when, in a pre-election interview with The Australian's Paul Kelly, our Prime Minister said: "I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism. I rule out a carbon tax."

Then came the election result no one foresaw.

Ultimately the price of winning government with the support of the Greens and Independents was a price on carbon. Gillard, ever the pragmatist, changed her mind and broke a promise.

The circumstances had changed, or as Tony Abbott himself has been heard to note, "s--- happens".

There is a gulf of difference between a broken promise in the context of altered circumstance, and a deliberate decision to mislead.

As such, to accuse Gillard of lying, to argue that the carbon pricing scheme is based on a deliberate, pre-meditated lie, in itself displays some towering mendacity.
This is by Paul Syrvet of the Courier Mail who is no lover of the ALP.

"There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax.

He who is without sin..
Wrong.
01:45pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1838 posts
"There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax.

There is nothing incorrect about this statement at all. I can see why you retort to acting like a child in these threads. Please, learn some comprehension - do yourself a life long favour.
02:03pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1672 posts
^ It clearly shows you have zero comprehension. Not surprised really.

We have a fixed price ETS that was to become floating in 2016, I don't see a carbon tax itemised in the taxes I pay. Show me where this line item is in my tax receipts please.

He who is without sin..
Weaseling out again I see.
02:10pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1172 posts
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02:13pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3942 posts
Taxing the biggest polluters was a great move. I think what Gillard meant was she would not tax us directly. The tax on corporations to reduce emissions would not cost us more once they invest in greener solutions.
02:19pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1839 posts
Taxing the biggest polluters was a great move. I think what Gillard meant was she would not tax us directly. The tax on corporations to reduce emissions would not cost us more once they invest in greener solutions.

I should show you my power bill.

What state are you in? Does your power bill include the average extra cost due to the carbon tax which was promised wouldn't happen?

The biggest polluters would be coal burning power stations. We all use power from (most likely) a coal fired plant. Of course there is the argument that 'big business' use way more power and therefore technically they are the polluter. However, 'big business' only exists because of us, the consumer. If "we" weren't here buying stuff or using energy, we wouldn't have big business, or the need to burn coal at all. Even a business not directly linked to us, eg, commercial builders. None of us? No commerce. No commerce? No commercial builders.

I argue it all trickles down to us at the end of the day.

What ever happened to thorium power? I've done a fair bit of reading and I still can't see the reason we aren't going down this route? We're taking baby steps in random directions such as solar/wind tech - expensive in it's own right - but what about thorium?
02:36pm 02/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1539 posts
The "carbon tax" was great and was working as intended. It was not costing the average person for its existence. It was however funding research, projects, new idea's, actual schemes, and ways of doing things better for everyone including the planet. Documented and effective ways.

The fast that it was beat up as some big threat was just the same hype tactic that is at work on the budget and refugees.

On a side note: Some Fat Bastard when someone uses obvious and non subtle innuendo and then gets called on it but acts like they are some "clever" 12 year old stating they "never said any thing". You should get the hint as to the type of person you are dealing with. You should be able to gauge in terms of their moral integrity not to mention their level of intellect where you might stand with them in future chats. As a child someone should have told them to cut that s*** out.
02:47pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1674 posts
I should show you my power bill.
2.4T of Carbon related costs to my power bill total of $693.00 Equates to 2.4 x 24.15 = $57.96. Not a huge impost when compared to the greatest ever increasing cost in electricity is distribution and retail, not generation. Of course most of us know this.

Given we're a pretty big energy user household of 5 I think my carbon price contribution is SFA to my overall power bill.
02:52pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1325 posts

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/wind-turbines-are-utterly-offensive-joe-hockey-tells-alan-jones

Joe Hockey has labeled wind turbines “utterly offensive”, indicating that renewable energy funding and environmental agencies will both be pared back in the upcoming budget.

The treasurer, speaking on Alan Jones’s 2GB radio show, said: “Can I be a little indulgent? I drive to Canberra to go to parliament and I must say I find those wind turbines around Lake George to be utterly offensive. I think they’re a blight on the landscape.”


I completely agree with Joe, those turbines look horrible. Check out the blight on the horizon of this pic:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlK-tIgCcAEmFmC.jpg

These idiots are a bunch of dinosaurs that need to go. At least they can retire earlier than we will.
03:04pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1675 posts
Typically, an average Australian household electricity bill in 2012-13 consisted of:

• Network charges - the largest cost component, accounting for about 51 per cent of the bill, this
represents the cost of building and maintaining electricity networks, i.e. the poles and wires that
deliver electricity to your home or business.

• Wholesale costs - the costs associated with generating electricity and trading it in a wholesale
market - around 20 per cent of the total bill.

• Retail and energy scheme costs - the 'shop front' for a consumer's electricity supply and costs from
schemes for energy efficiency and renewables - together about 20 per cent of the bill.

• Carbon price - cost passed on by fossil-fuel generators for their carbon emissions - around 9 per cent
of the household bill.


Interesting.
03:05pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1676 posts
Check out the blight on the horizon of this pic:
Joe's obviously never set foot outside Sydney North Shore or Canberra. If he'd been anywhere near the Bowen Basin he'd know it takes up to 20 to 30 minutes driving to pass some of the mines up there from start to finish at 110 KPH. Oh and with some mines like Millenium Coal mine you can't have a durrie for a 10klm radius due to coal dust and potential fire hazard. Had to drive to the main highway 12 K's away before anyone was allowed to. Says a lot in comparison to wind farms.
03:10pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
5 posts

I'll keep it in this thread because I dont think making another circle jerk politiks thread is worth the f*****g hassle.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/retirement-age-rise-to-70-by-2035-joe-hockey-announces-20140502-zr318.html

Australians born after 1965 will have to work until they are 70 before they are eligible for the age pension, Treasurer Joe Hockey has announced

I think this is bulls***. By the time I am in my 60s the retirement age will be at least 80.

I don't know how this is calculated, what's the cuttoff in regards to age?
Found a calculator here:
https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools/super-and-pension-age-calculator
03:11pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15546 posts
That's alright, the health system will keep us healthy enough to move our bones at 70!
03:14pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1677 posts
Your age pension age: 67

This is the earliest you can receive an Age Pension.
Centrelink's other eligibility criteria applies.

Your super 'preservation' age: 57

This is the earliest you can access super.
Conditions apply.
Neat calculator. My results. I intend to retire at 60. Just over 6 years to go.
03:25pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1326 posts
Pretty f*****g convenient that the baby boomers have to do none of the "heavy lifting".
03:27pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1841 posts
Haha - Justifying the existence of the Carbon Tax. One of them using the term "Carbon related costs" instead of "Carbon Tax." In the meantime, the line "There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax. still rings true, regardless of the salad dressing that gets thrown onto it.

I'll keep it in this thread because I dont think making another circle jerk politiks thread is worth the f*****g hassle.

Clearly, your commendable AG experience extends past your post count of 5.

By the time I am in my 60s the retirement age will be at least 80.

I agree with this, I feel the same way. It's not much of a morale booster. (Actually, the morale booster is that I don't expect/want to live much past 60 - just make it last till then and all is well.)
03:34pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1678 posts
Pretty f*****g convenient that the baby boomers have to do none of the "heavy lifting".
They never had super contributions from any employer till 1996. You get minimum 9% and in the Public Service up to 17% all your working life. They get it for the last half of their working life.
03:35pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1679 posts
Haha - Justifying the existence of the Carbon Tax. One of them using the term "Carbon related costs" instead of "Carbon Tax." In the meantime, the line "There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax. still rings true, regardless of the salad dressing that gets thrown onto it.
That's okay your desire to mislead is noted re: "Gillard lied".
03:39pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
6 posts
Haha - Justifying the existence of the Carbon Tax. One of them using the term "Carbon related costs" instead of "Carbon Tax." In the meantime, the line "There will not be a Carbon Tax under the Government I lead." - Now we have a Carbon Tax. still rings true, regardless of the salad dressing that gets thrown onto it.


I agree with this, I feel the same way. It's not much of a morale booster. (Actually, the morale booster is that I don't expect/want to live much past 60 - just make it last till then and all is well.)

I meant the pension age will be 80. I think the retirement age will be 70 by the time I'm 60. Which is f***ed. I don't really care the pension age is increasing. I can understand why (see what SFB but I think it was actually 1992) but the retirement age should be up to me. Not the government.
03:40pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1680 posts
see what SFB but I think it was actually 1992
Yes, you are correct. I mistook that for the date of the GST introduction.

BTW I remembered this little gem.

John Howard was re-elected leader of the Liberal party in 1995, and pledged "never, ever" to introduce the GST
03:45pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
7 posts
But when he did, he put it towards election. Which at least is an honorable way to do it.
03:47pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1843 posts
That's okay your desire to mislead is noted re: "Gillard lied".

My point (which you keep missing) is it doesn't matter what people say prior to an election. Both parties are equally bad for the same thing. One promises no Carbon Tax, and we now have one. The next promises certain budget/economic measures to which they now renege on. Both examples can have excuses such as 'unforseen circumstances' - ultimately meaning that the whole pre-election promise thing is a misnomer.

I hope the picture has now been simplified enough (stick figures) for you to comprehend the underlying point. Your red tie fury is incapacitating your ability to think beyond the level of a child at the moment - made even clearer now that you've brought up GST promises from the nineties as well.
03:48pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1844 posts
John Howard was re-elected leader of the Liberal party in 1995, and pledged "never, ever" to introduce the GST
Still, before the 1998 election, Howard proposed a GST that would replace all sales taxes, as well as applying to all goods and services. The Howard Government finished on a two-party-preferred vote of 49.02% at the election, suffering a swing of 4.61% to Labor on 50.98%. However, the incumbent government retained a parliamentary majority of seats in the lower house. Howard described the election win as a "mandate for the GST". Lacking a Senate majority, and with Labor opposed to the introduction of the GST, the government turned to the minor parties such as the Australian Democrats for support.

Funnily enough, when I Google searched where you got that quote from - it turns out it's directly above the stuff I'm quoting right now, on the very same wiki page. Don't cut your fingers on all the straw you're grabbing at.

Edit: Let's also not forget that he won not only the 1998 election, but the 2001 and 2004 elections as well - post GST implementation.

The point of my original post was simply to show anyone who says "Herr durr he'th lying about hith pre-elecshun promitheth" that neither side is better, so f*****g move on to a sunnier side of debating politics or you're just as bad as they are.
03:52pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1327 posts

They never had super contributions from any employer till 1996. You get minimum 9% and in the Public Service up to 17% all your working life. They get it for the last half of their working life.


No but they can put in their income into super, get taxed at 15% no matter how much they're earning and have probably bought property for a reasonable price that has been paid off and is now worth a s***load which isn't means tested.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/03/will-abbott-take-on-the-bmw-pensioners/
04:35pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37783 posts
ok, i will relax about my super now that im working another 5 years.
04:37pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1681 posts
Funnily enough, when I Google searched where you got that quote from - it turns out it's directly above the stuff I'm quoting right now, on the very same wiki page. Don't cut your fingers on all the straw you're grabbing at.
I didn't get it from a wiki page so what are you on about. I got it from here www.smh.com.au › Federal Politics › Federal Election 2013.

You really are a nutjob.
04:43pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1682 posts
has been paid off and is now worth a s***load which isn't means tested.
Mine isn't paid off. It's a 30 year mortgage and I took it out at 28. I've got a number of years to go before it is even close to being paid off. Why, cause I've had to educate three children, feed and clothe 5 people, pay for 5 peoples health expenses and a s***load more. So What are you on about?
04:48pm 02/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21466 posts
This is by Paul Syrvet of the Courier Mail who is no lover of the ALP.


he is an ex union official FFS
04:59pm 02/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1845 posts

I didn't get it from a wiki page so what are you on about. I got it from here www.smh.com.au › Federal Politics › Federal Election 2013.

You really are a nutjob.

Here come them top tier insults again. It's not my fault that SMH copy pasta is directly from Wiki. Since the statement rings true with you, you may as well read the rest on Wiki, instead of stuff hand picked by a tabloid. Just a thought.

John Howard was re-elected leader of the Liberal party in 1995, and pledged "never, ever" to introduce the GST.[1] Howard led the Liberal-National Coalition to a large victory in the 1996 elections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)#Introduction_of_the_GST

Of course though, you're totally ignoring the basis of the argument with your failure of a rebuttal. In all your years of losing debates, you've never learned to lose any with even a hint of grace.
05:55pm 02/05/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4963 posts
06:07pm 02/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3943 posts
06:37pm 02/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1822 posts
07:23pm 02/05/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10475 posts
meh...


yesterday I 'taught' kids IT as they made their own software to do what they wanted

today I taught them comms as they made their own VOIP servers to do what they want

tomorrow I'll be teaching kids to install renewable energy tech - in the years to come, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that at some point I will be teaching all three.

I'm not a professor, I am not a qual'd teacher - I'm not even a manager at work. I am just a 'team leader'

last edited by koopz at 20:57:15 02/May/14
08:51pm 02/05/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10476 posts
no idea what this has to do with the Op's thread - someone just linked me this in an email...



back on subject chaps! ( if there is still one )
09:00pm 02/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37689 posts
nope, there is plenty of free money, and as I have said many times before, handouts should be for those on the bones of their ass.
Hmm. "handouts" is a sort of derogatory term you seem to be using to encompass a vast amount of things in a single sentence. I broadly agree about handouts in the narrowly defined sense of "giving money to people that have none and need to eat". But I don't consider Medicare a "handout", or NDIS, or many of the other things that have come up here.

Anyway, again I can't really reconcile your position. There's either plenty of free money, so why we do we need to need to increase taxes? Or if there's not enough money, why don't we need to reduce spending?

How do YOU know they "broken" and "not necessary". What information have you analyzed to make your decision? I am relying on the Minister for Defence.
I analyzed information from the head of the JSF program, US Air Force Lieutenant General Chris Bogdan, who told our government recently that " the reliability and maintainability of the aircraft was not yet "good enough"."

That same article also has the US House Armed Services Committee being told "the planes are currently not affordable to use at the moment". The US DoD also publicly announced that they're not ready. Imagine how f*****g bad these things have to be for the US DoD to come out and say this. It is a major slap in the face to everyone involved. (Incidentally, I just found out that the engines for the F-35 are apparently built right here in Ohio, John Boehner's (speaker of the house) home state! This is the other weird thing about the US; programmes are often accepted based on how well they'll benefit each state, without any consideration to the whole.)

I'm not an Air Force general and won't even pretend to be an armchair warrior (I actually used to be a huge fighter plane nerd, until I realised that they're basically just death machines that cost billions of dollars to design and build); this plane is not built, not ready, not proven in any sense. It is under wide criticism even in the USAF because of its cost and the problems in development.

I have no problems with military spending; I also want our armed forces to have the best gear in the world and I desperately want them to never, ever have to use it. The F-35 is THE most expensive thing we could have bought though and has ZERO evidence. And ultimately I think manned jetfighters will be obsolete as soon as some clever military contractor builds air superiority drones they can stamp out in a factory.

Anyway, if they want to buy some boy's toys that's fine. But to do that and then claim we need to raise taxes and cut vital programmes (like MEDICARE?!!?!) because we can't reduce spending enough in other areas? Douche manouver.

I don't even care about the election promises because a) I never expected Abbott to keep any promises he made because it was clear he'd say anything that he thought would help him get elected and b) I didn't vote for them anyway.
01:18am 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21469 posts
There's either plenty of free money, so why we do we need to need to increase taxes?


there's plenty of free money so we don't need to increase taxes. you obviously didn't read the thread closely because I suggested massive cuts to the Commonwealth budget (in a lengthy list) which would in essence halve our total government expenditure. our government is far too large and does far too many things.

"handouts" is a sort of derogatory term you seem to be using to encompass a vast amount of things in a single sentence.


a handout is a receipt of cash by an individual from the government for which no consideration has been given. and many people need handouts to help them survive, for example the aged, infirm and disabled. people who are fit don't need handouts.
01:31am 03/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37690 posts
there's plenty of free money so we don't need to increase taxes. you obviously didn't read the thread closely because I suggested massive cuts to the Commonwealth budget (in a lengthy list) which would in essence halve our total government expenditure. our government is far too large and does far too many things.
Yes, that was the first thing I replied to (I didn't read the rest of the thread before that closely though, if you're referring to something else).

Some of the things in your list were good and I'd probably support too (e.g., means testing childcare services, means testing baby bonus stuff, removing industry subsidies), some average (I don't think means testing medical care is a good idea; the more I see the more I think medicare needs to be free always because otherwise health takes a back seat and you end up with, for e.g., mumps outbreak like is happening right here less than 1km from where I live now) & some of them were ludicrous (e.g., flat tax, scrapping health&educ depts - these things need to be federal for the benefit of all citizens; states doing this stuff will just end up in the absolutely ridiculous situation that they have here in the US which is a total train wreck.)

But many of the things in the list I think would establish the sort of pseudo-wannabe-libertarian oligarchic hellhole that is the United States. I know you've been here but seriously you should try to move here for a year and see if you still support those things. This country is an unfunny joke. (Long-term QGLers will probably remember my adoration of the USA back in the old days and might be able to dig up me saying the exact opposite; how things have changed.)
01:41am 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15548 posts
To be fair most of the problems are with the F35C and less so the F35B, the C is the carrier version. The F35A is what Australia is purchasing.

edit:



a handout is a receipt of cash by an individual from the government for which no consideration has been given.


Easy picking. Anything that is means testing has had consideration, therefor according to you is no longer a handout. Family Tax Benefit A and B thus are not handouts, nor are Newstart and a host of other programs such as Aged Care Pension.

Excellent, we can all move on.


Infi, can you at least admit the budget is not in an 'Emergency' situation, even if we left the budget as is and continued on, our deficit will slowly increase, yet we can continue to service well into 30 years time. It makes sense to nudge it into a surplus position, however it isn't an emergency.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 09:53:41 03/May/14
09:47am 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21470 posts
Anything that is means testing has had consideration,


consideration in the legal sense, i.e. something of value in exchange. none of the programs require consideration from the recipient and are thus all handouts.

Infi, can you at least admit the budget is not in an 'Emergency' situation,


i think the budget is in a disgraceful situation, run into the ground by wayne swan primarily as he enjoyed some careless spending. how anyone could vandalise our budget so visciously and portray themselves as saints in the process, well only the ALP could have the balls to pull that off.

as per usual poor old Liberals need to clean up the mess and are heartless bastards in the process. people get conditioned to receiving free stuff and like a heroin junkie once you take it away the withdrawal pains are severe and brutal (at the ballot box).

The saddest part is that we don't need to be $400b in debt. We didn't need to saddle our children with this debt. When the junkie asks for a hit you say no and you help them ride it out as uncomfortable as that may be. It is the irresponsible choices of d******* politicians who have no accountability and will be gone in a few years time that are the cause. The next generation has to put the shoulder to the wheel paying the debts incurred by lazy financially illiterate union hacks Australian were dumb enough to put in charge.
10:22am 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15549 posts
So, by what you said, you agree that it isn't an emergency.

People are not disagreeing with it heading in the wrong direction, that it needs a little nudge in the right direction. Calling it an emergency is pure unadulterated fear mongering, of which I see you agree.

I don't care who's fault it is or was. That is yesterday and has no bearing on tomorrow, only the present counts for change.
10:35am 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21471 posts
it is an emergency, we are in deficit and its getting worse! how is that not an emergency. it is not getting better for a long time. politicians spending our future money to win votes today.

just because we have tax payers (well just the high income tbh) who we can tax unlimited amounts if we get in the s***, it doesn't mean we should. politicans don't know how to simply say NO to spending.

it's sick dependence enabling behaviour. only 20% of australia pays nett tax, everyone else receives more back from the government than they pay in taxes by way of services benefits and handouts. it is so perverse and saddening - a competition to see how much each person can "get".
10:40am 03/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37786 posts
i think the budget is in a disgraceful situation


only the liberals seem to think this though?

the rest of the world would be envious to be in our position.
10:50am 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15550 posts

it is an emergency, we are in deficit and its getting worse! how is that not an emergency. it is not getting better for a long time. politicians spending our future money to win votes today.

just because we have tax payers (well just the high income tbh) who we can tax unlimited amounts if we get in the s***, it doesn't mean we should. politicans don't know how to simply say NO to spending.


Here lets use an anologly to explaine what is and isn't an emergency.

Your car has broken down on a railway track, there is a train coming. It will reach your car in about 2 hours time. At this point you have many options, you can get out and push your car off the track, you can go to the nearby shops and get some help to push your car. You could ring up the train people and explain what happened and they can slow the train down or stop it to wait for you to pass, the train will come though.

This is a s***** situation, but not an emergency, not for about 1 hour and 45 mins.


Now if you broke down on the railway track and the train was less than 1 minute away and your only option is to get out of the car and watch as the train smashes into it, the train is not going to stop in time no matter what. THAT is an emergency.

Currently our budget is similar to the first analogy. Yeah we have a deficit that is slowly getting worse and eventually will cause a catastrophic problem. We have plenty of time and a vast array of options to adjust the budget to get us where we need to be.


IT IS NOT AN EMERGENCY. So stop it, stop playing on peoples fears to try to get them to support your schemes, use rational thoughts and the reality of the situation, which is:
Budget is in a relatively bad state, to where it could be (in an excellent state relative to the rest of the world). Lets adjust our spending to put us on a track to surplus within 5-10 years. Lets do it in a way that doesn't cause people to go without healthcare otherwise that is just silly, sick people are pretty unproductive for the country. You get the idea.


11:01am 03/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15054 posts
AHOOOOGA AHOIOOOOOOGAA TEH MONIES!

More seriously, its not a crisis, its not an emergency, its a problem. infi is pants-on-head shrill about it.
03:26pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24199 posts
To me there is a stark difference between Gillard and Howard changing their stance on the carbon tax and GST and the way the current government came into power purely on a platform of dishonesty and fear mongering. There is no budget emergency, it isn't even remotely close to being a budget emergency and it is possible to prove that via something as innocuous as a thread on a gaming forum. This alarms me, because while I suspect infi knows there isn't one and is just perpetuating the myth out of party loyalty and financial self interest, there are people out there who believe there is one when even the most cursory glance at the facts clearly shows that there isn't.

We're now in a position where the lies and fear mongering are about to reach stage two. Massive cuts to areas that will affect vulnerable people. At the same time we have OSB which is massively expensive and serves no purpose except to punish undesirables to win the bigot vote, we have billions being spent on jets that have shown to have massive problems and are potentially economically unviable, we have schemes like the PPL which even after its adjustment still makes no sense in the context of a budget emergency. We also have some comical things, like the knights and dames situation. Some scary things, like how our PM is a literal torture apologist and provides military material support to a genocidal regime.

There are a few irl mates I have that I guess you could call right-wing. All of them have jumped ship (boat?) in the face of the absolute calamity that is facing us right now. I've asked myself the question many times, is it really this bad or are you just getting caught up in the anti-Abbott hype a little bit? After carefully going over the situation, reading what people are saying and not saying, assessing things as best as I can I really don't believe I am. The last people on board who haven't even bothered to raise an eyebrow are only the hardcore followers. The mentally ill like that brool guy, and the greedy self-interested people like infi who'd reduce the country to ashes if it means he could still be rich and protect the status quo.
04:02pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1683 posts
^ Well put fpot.
04:10pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37788 posts
it does seem that way doesnt it.
04:41pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3946 posts
agree with fpot
05:18pm 03/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1543 posts

The libs see themselves as lord of the manor. They want it tough on the little guy so they can get cheap labor. Keep people down. End of story. That is why they want it made harder for the little guy. No health, no welfare, no benefits etc etc.

If the Libs wanted to raise a few billion why not:
1. Tax the big four banks. 0.2% levy on bank assets above $100b
2. Taxing super earnings equally
3. End income splitting in Discretionary funds
4. End capital gains tax discount
5. END NEGATIVE GEARING

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/new-tax-on-rich-could-seal-tony-abbotts-fate-20140502-zr2hx.html


05:28pm 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21472 posts
Fiscal responsibility doesn't count for much on here. The status quo you are referring to is a pattern of increasing dependence on welfare. To change would be to reduce welfare dependency and create an environment in which people are encouraged not to rely on the state as the source of solutions to their problems in life. it is you fpot who is advocating the status quo.

It's actually ironic that you would suggest I represent the status quo. The clear trend in Democratic governments throughout the western world since ww2 is the continued extension of the welfare state because it is popular with voters. Politicians and voters are intoxicated by the allure of free benefits at the expense of those who generate wealth. If it is not funded by increased taxation of high income earners then it is funded through debt which enslaves future tax payers simply because individuals want more for themselves.

Our society has an obligation to care for the aged, infirm or disabled but wealth redistribution for some misguided notion of equality is simply theft for the objective of reelection and personal greed.
06:45pm 03/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1415 posts

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-02/unemployment-benefits-recommendations-commission-of-audit/5425554

Brilliant...


Now it seems that on top of dropping $15 every time I need to see a doctor (which will ultimately end up with me just not doing so at potential risk to my health), I'll also potentially be forcibly moved or face living on the streets if I'm unable to find work in a year...

Brilliant! So risk homelessness here or risk taking out a loan so I can afford to move elsewhere where there are job prospects but also far more likely to have higher rent and living costs, which leaves me even worse off...

I'll say it now. If this s*** gets passed, I'm f***ed.
06:46pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24200 posts
The status quo is that the richer are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer. Evidence saying so has already been posted in this thread but you just did some lolbertarian F*** You Got Mine mental gymnastics to ignore it like you usually do so I won't bother posting it again.

I put it to you that our society has an obligation to protect everyone. There are people out there who for lack of a less nasty term are just useless. Stupid, lazy, unskilled, unambitious, socially awkward, whatever. I know it makes people who aren't those things look very good on the internet to say f*** them, they should just be flushed down the toilet but I disagree. People who harbour those negative traits are never going to achieve anything truly great in their life. They'll never go on a great overseas holiday, or own a really flash car, or a large luxurious house because if you rely on welfare you simply can't afford those things. To me that's punishment enough. Welfare exists to stop their situation from becoming so desperate that they need to resort to crime. Of course some do, because some people are just greedy maladjusted c****. Poverty has to be a factor because there is a correlation between poverty and crime. Imagine how much worse it would be if welfare was cut? There is also the fact that a large amount of people aren't these things, and rely on welfare simply because of the bad hand they've been dealt in life (not necessarily disabled, things like a terrible upbringing for example). Why should they be punished? Sweeping indiscriminate changes to the welfare system will do this. Massive cuts to universal health care will do this. Putting up financial barriers to education will do this. These are all things that are in the pipeline. These are all things trog tried to point out to you when he talks about the state the USA is in at the moment. Seems you chose to ignore that as well.

Pretend for a second that you're a normal rational person who takes new evidence on board and is willing to adjust their position based off this new evidence. Imagine that you've just arrived in this country as a middle-class immigrant from wherever, and you're trying to get a read on the political situation here. For some god forsaken reason, you've selected the AG forums as your first port of call, and you're reading through and one group of people are making calm rational arguments and the other are deliberately avoiding the questions that will cause them to concede even the most insignificant point to the other group and instead just constantly repeat the same provably wrong debunked nonsense again and again. Now I know that's impossible for you to do because you're too far down the Abbott-hole. For others though it is blindingly obvious what is going on.
07:13pm 03/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6819 posts
Alot of people are moving to the U.S because of our dysfunctional housing market.

If you are an educated professional and can secure a job you are probably better off moving to the U.S as the cost of living is much lower.
07:17pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15551 posts
Infi,

Do you support forcing people to move to another city/region to find work in order to retain their newstart or whatever? From what you have said, you do.

Do you also support the ramifications of that? When you force people to move, is the state going to help pay for the movement cost? It isn't affordable to someone on newstart.
Will you support providing extra money to healthcare/social care for the inevitable increase in mental health problems from people forced to move away from support networks into places where they know no-one?

Forcing people to move to look for work will cause more problems then it solves. Also I'm pretty sure, if you move a large number of people into an area that has better job opportunities, then some of those people get jobs, that area will no longer have 'better' job opportunities and you will have to move those that didn't get it .. again. Seems like a big waste of time and resources.

Fiscal responsibility does count for a lot here. As does social responsibility. The fact of the matter is the budget is nowhere near as bad as Liberal made it out to be, and you know it. It just needs a little change here and there.
07:22pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15552 posts
How about this, explain to us how and why you consider this an emergency, bearing in mind what the definition of emergency is and how the majority of English speaking people use it.
07:28pm 03/05/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10493 posts
Alot of people are moving to the U.S because of our dysfunctional housing market.



I am unsure of how you see your data currently...


though I don't personally see ethnics moving back to the same situation that bought them to Aus...


but yeah - it seems that peeps aren't staying for easy cred I've noticed


I'm not a bank manager - you'll likely have to explain your point so that people like me can understand what it is that you are talking about. I look at people's comms and IT - I don't know what you are talking about here




last edited by koopz at 19:48:53 03/May/14
07:47pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3947 posts
fpot the true speaker of wisdom. Infi wants us to revert to an era free of unions. Just like a typical business owner, only cares about his own back pocket.
07:54pm 03/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1546 posts

mhmm vash just because someone is a "business owner" doesnt make them a c***. Thats almost as bad as saying just because someone is rich they are a c***.

as for the article on forced move to get a job last i heard (day after your article) Abbott was saying he wouldn't force people to move but would encourage them. After one year of being on newstart (ie. one year unemployed) if someone moved for work to the country they would get a 6 grand bonus and if they went to city they would get a 3k bonus

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbott-to-crack-down-on-dole-but-will-avoid-harshest-recommendation-20140503-zr3t8.html

what i find bulls*** is this from the same article:

Mr Abbott has long foreshadowed changes to the dole to push more young people off benefits and into work. The Coalitionâns policy document states: We believe that every Australian who is capable of working should be in a job, preferably for a wage but, if not, for the dole.


finding a job is a full time job. Working some really really s***** job with no future cept to do more of it so you can get the bare minimum you require to live (ie. the dole) is basically slavery. How can you find a job when the government has got you doing a job for the dole?


08:16pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24201 posts
What I've always wondered, barring work for volunteer organisations of course, is why instead of making people work for the dole in jobs that pay below minimum wage they just, you know, employ people in those jobs. Are the majority of work for the dole placements in volunteer organisations?
08:20pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3948 posts
yes but im saying alot of business owners are c****.
There are some out there that actually care about poor people and the community. thats what we're all about. the community.
And thats how Australia got to this point, we have welfare to care for those who have less than us, instead of laughing in their faces. "I got mine, f*** you" attitude.
08:24pm 03/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1547 posts
if you work as a volunteer at an organisation but claim welfare the government makes u quit volunteering so you can get a paid job - even if its a charitable or public volunteer organisation.

The government doesn't give a s*** about what good work you might be doing as a volunteer. IT just wants to stop paying you. So get off welfare and get a job. All the talk of "bettering people and bettering society and "skilling people" up with work for the dole courses etc etc is all bulls***. Its just talk. The bottom line is: get off support. Stop taking government money.
08:26pm 03/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1416 posts
What I've always wondered, barring work for volunteer organisations of course, is why instead of making people work for the dole in jobs that pay below minimum wage they just, you know, employ people in those jobs. Are the majority of work for the dole placements in volunteer organisations?


As someone who was forced into work for the dole a week before starting full time study, it is basically just that: slave labour.

They had us working 9 to 5 painting, weeding and doing fix-it work on a government owned building of some kind. There were options to do work for some charities, but for some reason I was made to do this one and not given a choice, despite my medical certificate that I had saying I wasn't allowed to do full-time physical labour.

Totally worth it for the $200 I made in that week *sarcastic eyeroll*

And it totally got me connections and enabled me to find a job *another eyeroll*

Even worse are the "you're not finding work, so come in from 9 to 5 and do s***** courses that do you absolutely zero good" ordeals. *Shudder*

Trust me, being on the dole long-term is worse than actually just getting a job. Unfortunately, I can't MAKE people hire me.
08:37pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24203 posts
How many days a week were you doing 9-5 painting?
08:54pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13521 posts
I know this is sort of argumentative, but what you've described is so far removed from slave labour it's not funny wirlwind. and also from what you wrote, you had to do it for a week?
09:29pm 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21473 posts
Do you support forcing people to move to another city/region to find work in order to retain their newstart or whatever? From what you have said, you do.


yes, many people are required to either travel (salespeople) or relocate (army/teachers) as part of their employment. if a person wants employment they will go where the work is and not wring their hands.

Do you also support the ramifications of that? When you force people to move, is the state going to help pay for the movement cost? It isn't affordable to someone on newstart.


they should be loaned the money. like the person who takes a loan to pay for uni or the person who borrows money to buy a mower to start their own mowing business, moving costs are capital startup costs and will be repaid many times over the life of the job. or the person could simply say "BUT WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY?!" that's what everyone says now days right?

Will you support providing extra money to healthcare/social care for the inevitable increase in mental health problems from people forced to move away from support networks into places where they know no-one?


complete speculation. my sister moved to the middle of nowhere whoop whoop when she was 20 and never looked back. if you got balls and brains you'll be fine. a lot of this whinging I am hearing sounds very precious. People can look at obstacles as inconveniences and injustices in their life, or they can look at the as opportunities and attack them be victorious. People can sit on the couch asking "do I get some form of govt assistance for this", like it's a side of fries, or they can say "f*** i really want that and I am gonna figure out a way to get it."

Fiscal responsibility does count for a lot here. As does social responsibility.


social responsibility is code for i want some of what they've got. as i said, we have an obligation to the aged, infirm or disabled but if you are perfectly healthy, then rely on your support network, rely on your own resourcefulness, figure out something that someone else wants and start doing it.

How about this, explain to us how and why you consider this an emergency, bearing in mind what the definition of emergency is and how the majority of English speaking people use it.


an emergency is a situation that if left unattended will result in immediate disaster. given that turning around budgets is like turning around a cruise liner, our current fiscal situation warrants immediate drastic action. i don't want my country to be a joke, i dont want to fix our budget in 10 years. i want the right decisions to be taken right now, because there is no reason to delay. there is no reason to incur more needless debt simply to sustain unsustainable programs which can easily be removed. the suggestions that is made repeatedly by socialist spendaholoics on this board is that our debt is not as bad us the US or Japan. I would reply SO WHAT - the implication of that comparison is that we can go to that dark place and still get by.

also there is no need to rob the high income earners for some quick fix. everyone is looking for a quick fix these days: a handout, a stimulus, a levy. just this one more fix. then the politicians and receivers are soon jonesing for another quick fix.

fpot the true speaker of wisdom. Infi wants us to revert to an era free of unions.


I don't care about unions. I have a union agreement with my staff. I worked with unions every day for 6 years as an industrial advocate. you really don't listen.

Just like a typical business owner, only cares about his own back pocket.


what a bigoted statement. although you have every right to be a bigot, i just wanted to call it out. gotta watch out for those bigots.

What I've always wondered, barring work for volunteer organisations of course, is why instead of making people work for the dole in jobs that pay below minimum wage they just, you know, employ people in those jobs. Are the majority of work for the dole placements in volunteer organisations?


yes most of the jobs on work for the dole are in some form of community service. the labor is cheap and it helps areas of the community that are usually underserviced. there are not otherwise enough taxes to fund the job permanently.

The government doesn't give a s*** about what good work you might be doing as a volunteer. IT just wants to stop paying you. So get off welfare and get a job.


aside from your resentful attitude, you have figured it. we may be making progress. we need to pay for all the good things government does by earning money and paying taxes. we can't have a country full of volunteers on the dole. that is a fantasy that may exist in your head Rulez. you are an adult now, get off your ass and pay some taxes.

As someone who was forced into work for the dole a week before starting full time study, it is basically just that: slave labour.


your situation intrigues me wirlwind. what is your education? did you finish grade 12? uni degree or trade? considered an apprentice or working in remote queensland? get a certificate 3 in aged care or a certificate in food handling and you could literally walk into any aged care facility in SEQ and get a job tomorrow. i know because i turn s*** staff out of my services every week, looking for people who know how to at a minimum follow basic directions and answer their mobile phone.

Life is what you make it, the government is not going to save you.
09:47pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24204 posts
So just basically the same bootstrap your way to success lolbertarian circular arguing nonsense we've come to expect from you. You literally just repeat yourself again and again and again until people are so bored they just don't bother anymore. If someone needs to move to try and find a job, who is going to lend them the money? Last time I checked financial institutions won't lend money to someone who isn't employed or owns any assets. You use your sister, someone who comes from the same privileged position that you did, as someone who has bootstrapped their way to success. Are you really that f*****g stupid?

There is no point trying to reason with you. You live in your own little world that has no basis in reality. In equal parts hilarity and sadness, this is what you try and accuse people of when they contradict your way of thinking.

yaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn
10:02pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1684 posts
also there is no need to rob the high income earners for some quick fix
WTF? Only the less well off and poor should carry the burden? F*** what a tosser. I'm a high income earner and have no worries about sharing the load. Why can't you, dropkick.
10:07pm 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21474 posts
You literally just repeat yourself again and again and again until people are so bored they just don't bother anymore. If someone needs to move to try and find a job, who is going to lend them the money? Last time I checked financial institutions won't lend money to someone who isn't employed or owns any assets.


"they should be loaned the money."

Read my posts and stop being intentionally obtuse. I am suggesting that the govt policy should be for Centrelink to lend the money.

You use your sister, someone who comes from the same privileged position that you did,


my sister finished high school dropped out of uni and married someone without one dollar from my family. she just packed her bags and left. fpot once again jumping to bigoted conclusions.

the funniest thing about your whiny posts is that you are implying that no one can succeed without some sort of govt assistance. it's hilarious.

WTF? Only the less well off and poor should carry the burden? F*** what a tosser. I'm a high income earner and have no worries about sharing the load. Why can't you, dropkick.


the tax has already been paid. the high earner levy will raise total income tax to over 50%.
10:07pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24206 posts
I'm just going to state for the record that I think you're a slimy little c*** who would say anything to try and sway people in lieu of any real facts. I don't really give a s*** about any personal little anecdotes you want to tell.
10:09pm 03/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21475 posts
I knew you wouldn't give a s*** once it disagreed with your little rich kid fantasy in your head.

I am sure the anecdote would interest you if it was proven to be false and you could link to some juicy courier mail article about it. You would be all over it then.

You must be very confused at how some people can be successful and just get stuff done and you can't. It must tear you up inside.
10:13pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15554 posts

my sister moved to the middle of nowhere whoop whoop when she was 20 and never looked back.


It didn't happen to someone I know, so therefor it doesn't happen to anybody. That is a pretty poor logic. The truth is it does happen.


social responsibility is code for i want some of what they've got.


No, it is showing compassion to another human. It is understandable that if someone has low amounts of compassion they would have a problem seeing things outside of 'I want'. This is the part you don't understand as much as you accuse people of not understanding the financial aspect of things. Your constant retort to calls of compassion are along the same lines, 'People just want to take take take, but not me because I'm different to people'.


Also,
then rely on your support network
Of which you want to remove people from. lol.


I don't want my country to be a joke, i dont want to fix our budget in 10 years. i want the right decisions to be taken right now, because there is no reason to delay. there is no reason to incur more needless debt simply to sustain unsustainable programs which can easily be removed.


So because you don't want to take a bit longer to fix something, you declare it an emergency. I'm convinced you do believe it is an emergency, which defies logic as the information is quite clear in the National Commission of Audit, we are not in an emergency situation.

It's not an emergency, it never was, it might be if left unchecked for 30 years or so, maybe longer. Greece was in an emergency situation for example, we are nowhere near that. 'Oh but we might be there in 80 years, so it's an emergency' is what you are saying.. Come on.






last edited by Tollaz0r! at 22:21:48 03/May/14
10:20pm 03/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24207 posts
I come from a rich family. Probably not as rich as yours, but my parents bought our childhood house without borrowing a cent from the bank (inherited money) and there was never a single thing I went without. Our family all gets along famously and apart from a few small blips I have never experienced anything but happiness. I want everyone to have that. I know that's not possible so I'll settle for as many people having it as possible. People come from an almost infinite different number of backgrounds. I'm not saying everyone needs the government to succeed, that's just stupid. I am saying that some do. I have no idea how you inferred differently from my posts so there it is clearly.

You're just so close minded. You think that just because you succeeded everyone can using the same method. All these changes you keep suggesting aren't going to make anything better except your own personal situation. This is why fundamentalist libertarians are just so scornful. They mask their own greed with thinly veiled jingoistic nationalism. If anyone dares question it they're a socialist dole bludger who is just jealous. It's just so pathetic.
10:24pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15555 posts
I"m happy to have changes made to the budget, I'm willing to have some programs cut and others trimmed. I will not however support it under the false accusation that the budget is in an emergency situation.
Doing so is like having the executioners axe over the head, forcing the person to accept whatever rediculus claims are called for.

Get rid of the fear campaign and start talking rationally and then we can get somewhere.
10:24pm 03/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1548 posts
How many days a week were you doing 9-5 painting?

work for the dole is usually 16 hours per week or 2 full time 8 hour days - so id assume 2? And sorry jim but black people "way down south" isn't the only form of slavery.

social responsibility is code for i want some of what they've got

And that statement is really the real you. It is who you are. Which is fine. Its a forum and no one knows you. You can be yourself here. which is great. So why do you say stuff like: "we have an obligation to the aged, infirm or disabled" when you know you dont mean it. Not really. You are only saying it because you have to. Because if you didn't say it you would be seen as a monster. Must suck that even tho your anon and no one knows you that you are still forced to be a certain thing, to say a certain thing, that isn't you. So caged by the bulls*** - even here.

Just be yourself infi - let it out. You hate "poor" people. You hate anyone who is useless. You hate anyone who is lazy or stupid or old or sick because they are not well off and that means they are a burden on you. You have to open your wallet and give to stupid lazy people and you hate it. etc etc

You should just say it infi. Its obvious you are holding back and it makes you look like you are pandering to public opinion like some politician fishing for votes. But your not stupid eh? Cant have everyone knowing the real infi (like we dont already lol) can we? You can never be who you really are. Well id respect you more as a monster who was honest and trying to be truthful than as some kind of hybrid monster who "knows the line" and wont step over it but is obviously full of s***. T would also be easier to have a much more meaningful chat if you were to come out of hiding who you are.

you are an adult now, get off your ass and pay some taxes.

thinking up creative ways to not pay taxes is a past time for certain privileged segments of society - and it aint just the poor. not even close.

Life is what you make it, the government is not going to save you.

Bravo. Wonderful. Imagine if that was really true? What if everyone who was working towards a society, a government, where people are saved. Supported. Aided. Assisted. Rescued just ceased overnight to exist. Went away. And suddenly the far right was just able to do as it pleased. What would that world look like? Pretty f*****g ugly.

Thats not what you meant you might say? You (political right) guys always think you got money and power so you are in control - there is no control. We are on the knife edge. The thin veneer of society and without community and goodwill to support it all it would fall apart very fast. But lets say you didnt just get rid of the "other side". That they all didnt just "go away". Lets look at it again - Life is what you make it, the government is not going to save you - well that would be anarchy would it not? Thats what that sentiment is promoting. Cant alter one half of the equation with out balancing out the other side. And lets just say you are not badarse enough, or your walls so high, or your pocket so deep as to employ protection that when they come for you and stick you up against a wall you will be able to do anything but bleed. You shouldn't expect the government to save you either. No police. No ambulance. The government is not going to save you.

But its the logic we should expect from someone being and publicly saying only half of themselves: Life is what you make it, the government is not going to save you. lol
11:00pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1685 posts
the tax has already been paid. the high earner levy will raise total income tax to over 50%
Taxes on high income earners at the top tax break used to be that and more and NOBODY left the country cause of it. In some countries it's way more so in actual fact we're luckier than many. On top of that it's not 50% of my total income and stop trying to portray it is dipstick.
11:51pm 03/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3949 posts
haha infi getting a serving. shame i can't be bothered doing such epic replies.
What ruleofbookz said
12:09am 04/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1417 posts
I know this is sort of argumentative, but what you've described is so far removed from slave labour it's not funny wirlwind. and also from what you wrote, you had to do it for a week?


It's the modern day equivalent, working for almost nothing and not having any choice in it. Sure, there weren't any beatings and the like, but it's as close to modern day slave labour as you can get without breaking any laws.

I would have had to do it for more than a month (that job atleast, who knows what after that), but as I mentioned, I started full-time tafe the next week so I told them to bugger off. They KNEW I had enrolled in TAFE, yet they still said "do it or lose your payments". So what choice did I have?

How many days a week were you doing 9-5 painting?


Monday through Friday. It was a full time job for less than minimum wage, basically. Only reason I didn't have to do any more than a week is I started TAFE in week 2.


your situation intrigues me wirlwind. what is your education? did you finish grade 12? uni degree or trade? considered an apprentice or working in remote queensland? get a certificate 3 in aged care or a certificate in food handling and you could literally walk into any aged care facility in SEQ and get a job tomorrow. i know because i turn s*** staff out of my services every week, looking for people who know how to at a minimum follow basic directions and answer their mobile phone.


I worked every day after school from year 7 to 11. I got halfway through year 11, booted out for being disruptive (I didn't like school much) and went right into a job working s*** labour for s*** pay full time at a stair factory. Was injured within the first month because of dodgy OH&S and (being naive) was guilted into quitting so they could avoid paying.

Then I got an apprenticeship as a sparky where I was WORSE OFF than on centerlink (I'm not even exaggerating, week to week I had nothing left). The hours were pretty s*** too, waking up at 4am and getting home around 9pm. On top of that, for more than a month, my job consisted of "sit in the kitchen and do nothing" for 8 hours a day while they tried to place me in a job closer to home.

Left that job, faffed about a bit with sales (door to door and tele) and realised I was s*** at those, got an apprenticeship as an electrical fitter where I tore my left rotator cuff and spent months in rehab and was "let go" shortly after coming back.

Basically, I ended up just going back to TAFE where I went and studied IT, since it's basically all I know how to do. Am currently almost done with a Cert IV in networking, with plans on going to Adv Diploma and my CCNA. I had a few stops and starts along the way, inc programming and web design.

Between all that, though, there were a few years of sickness and downtime because of that where I was trying to get a part-time job that would meet my criteria, but I went 2 years without so much as a callback for round 2 of phone interviews. Most weeks, I'd put out 20 applications (including personalised cover letters) and be lucky if I even got a single rejection email.

I'm not suited for close people work. Also, I have friends who work in aged care and they tell me that it's absolute s*** all around. Call me a slacker, but I don't think I want to go and work for a certificate that will get me s*** hours, worse work and pay that gets beaten by pizza delivery wages :P There's a reason you can walk into those jobs... No-one wants to do them because they're terrible.
01:33am 04/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13522 posts
And sorry jim but black people "way down south" isn't the only form of slavery.

what an utterly stupid response to make, particularly given the context


It's the modern day equivalent, working for almost nothing and not having any choice in it. Sure, there weren't any beatings and the like, but it's as close to modern day slave labour as you can get without breaking any laws.

nope, what you described is nothing like slave labour at all - it's just normal physical labour during cushy 9-5 hours. oh noes the humanity of having to do some handyman work for a week

the monetary compensation side of it arguably sounds a bit on the lame side, but I bet we're not getting the full picture there
01:52am 04/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24209 posts
Sometimes I wonder how first year apprentices survive. I remember one telling me how much he earned. I was expecting him to say something like $14 an hour which is kind of low but hey I guess you could survive on that and you are just learning but no it was something like $7 an hour. That means you'd get $280 for a 40 hour working week. You must get centrelink as well I guess but to put that many hours in for so little pay just seems criminal to me.
02:09am 04/05/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1550 posts
jim no need to get abusive. Sorry if your offended by my logic - try to hear me out tho please.

the whole thing about s*** jobs is that the market is supposed to sort them out. You have this s*** job that society wants done: lets call it A. No one wants to do A. Poor hours, s*** routine, long travel, poor wage, no chance for improvement or advancement and no challenge. So no one wants to do A but if A needs doing what SHOULD happen? A should be advertised with better wages and conditions etc. And kept being re-advertised with better and better up until it attracts someone. But what really happens? The government forces you to work the job "or else". That being no benefits as they are cut off meaning you stave. No choice. S*** job.

OR "you" manage to find better but sooner or later someone is going to be forced into it. IT needs doing and "they" wont improve it. Why would "they"?

It only happens at the very bottom of society tho. I wonder why? Cause no one then gives a s*** except those forced to deal with it and as they are at the bottom then stiff s*** deal with it - no one else in society would put up with it. People would leave the job or never take it and so the job wouldnt get done etc. But if you are at the bottom. You have to. Slave.

If you are real good and work hard for a long long time maybe you can buy your freedom. Maybe.

Vash - its not a serve. I respect infi. He right to his opinion and say. id just respect him more if he was honest with us. You know ppl s*** on political threads. "oh you wont change anything its pointless like anyone would listen to AG people". etc etc we all seen it. They are missing the point.

Political threads are great "getting to know you" threads. As a community its great we get to share our views. We dont have to agree on them. Community also needs balance. It needs dreamers and monsters. So long as things are balanced pretty well all is u sally good. IF people are Bulls***ting themselves it makes the process of community balance harder. IF they bulls*** themselves they cant help bulls*** the community.

We all bulls*** ourselves. which leads back to political threads. leads back to getting to know you (yourself). means better community. But people have to at least try to be honest and to engage in chat. ITs ewasy to sit back nice and safe lurking or just relying on "everyone knows me". The easiest way not to let people grow is to lock them in with the idea that how you know them now is what they should always be because that is what they were in the past. And as much as others do that to us - we do it to ourselves more. Ego / id etc. They is you. Society. Whatever.
03:23am 04/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13523 posts

I didn't get abusive, and logic never offends me. Even your illogical post didn't offend me

What is relatively offensive though, is the idea that having options that are lackluster instead of completely appealing, is even remotely comparable to being a slave. It isn't even remotely comparable to 'A' in your wall of text. He wasn't even describing stuff like cleaning toilets - it was painting, weeding and fixing stuff on a building from 9 to 5. Decent work.

And he did it for a week and then went into full time study, according to his account of things. If he had refused to do it, he wouldn't be killed - he might just lose a week's payment going into his account automatically, and have to make some extra effort to get money or assistance elsewhere for a short time. The calamity!

Like I said, context


Speaking of context, here's a couple of links about modern day slavery:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/aug/14/slavery-still-shackles-mauritania
http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/mauritania/


04:30am 04/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15556 posts

It only happens at the very bottom of society tho.


No it doesn't. CEO's dump and urn from companies all the time for similar reason. S*** pay, s*** work, off to do something better. It happens between all segments of society.
The government 'or else' thing can equally apply, for the CEO example, if you don't earn $400,000 then you can't repay your many loans and go bankrupt (or else, sure they could sell it all, but they really, really, really don't want to).
08:09am 04/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1418 posts
Sometimes I wonder how first year apprentices survive. I remember one telling me how much he earned. I was expecting him to say something like $14 an hour which is kind of low but hey I guess you could survive on that and you are just learning but no it was something like $7 an hour. That means you'd get $280 for a 40 hour working week. You must get centrelink as well I guess but to put that many hours in for so little pay just seems criminal to me.


Yeah, I was spending literally all of my weekly wage on paying back my tools, travel, board and rent. I didn't even have enough money left over for a beer when I was done. It was f*****g pathetic.

If you want people to work, mayhaps make jobs like that worth haviing. As it stands, you're actually better off sitting on centerlink than getting an apprenticeship at that rate (at least until the 3rd or 4th year).
09:31am 04/05/14 Permalink
Zapo
Brisbane, Queensland
3244 posts
Sometimes I wonder how first year apprentices survive. I remember one telling me how much he earned. I was expecting him to say something like $14 an hour which is kind of low but hey I guess you could survive on that and you are just learning but no it was something like $7 an hour. That means you'd get $280 for a 40 hour working week. You must get centrelink as well I guess but to put that many hours in for so little pay just seems criminal to me.


There's a few ways to look at it I guess, but I mean you're earning jack all - but you are working and learning on the job, as opposed to uni where you learn and end up with a massive HECS debt. So yeah, it's a s***** wage initially, but so is being a student and working part-time. You're not on apprenticeships/traineeship wages forever, it's means to an end.
09:45am 04/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15560 posts
Keep in mind that certain apprenticeships can lead to jobs that pay way more than the average uni degree holder.
A sparky for instance can earn well above $60k.
10:43am 04/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1852 posts
I can't believe you guys spend your f*****g weekends pissing about politics on a gaming forum. Sure, during work time perhaps, but the weekend? Think I'm about to have a laff.
10:54am 04/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15561 posts
I played Dark Souls 2 this morning, taking a little piss in a politics thread during the weekend is fine, don't be so grumpy.
11:55am 04/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15055 posts
I can't believe you wasted precious gaming / weekend time to to reply to that post toll, get your f*****g s*** together

ph33x, you grumpy f***, t4 later this arvo / tonight?
12:43pm 04/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1853 posts
Keen as man. The composition of my Sunday:

http://i.imgur.com/zXBC7k8.jpg.
http://i.imgur.com/SimxurF.jpg

Politics is fun, but not on a Sunday. Sunday is religious debate day.

(I need to wash my dusty ass keyboard. Probably full of weed too.)
01:19pm 04/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15056 posts
I got one of those ugly arse swords yesterday, they good for anything?

Also hope you not tanking. Whats the difficulty chart? Something useful to actually have handy as a ref.?
01:34pm 04/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1857 posts
Bumped D3 thread so I don't get hit by any stray peen in here.
01:43pm 04/05/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4969 posts
What's the Lindt bunny with green ribbon? I've seen the regular, dark, and white chocky ones but not green.

Oh yeah to keep on thread, politics, Libs, Labour, Greens, PUP, KAP, tax, levy, planes, emergency.
02:01pm 04/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1860 posts
What's the Lindt bunny with green ribbon? I've seen the regular, dark, and white chocky ones but not green.

Hazelnut. The mrs bought me one of each and I thought green would be mint. I had to check that s***..

Oh yeah to keep on thread, politics, Libs, Labour, Greens, PUP, KAP, tax, levy, planes, emergency.

Sorry. Abbott, Gillard, Crud, Hitler, Stalin, etc.
02:32pm 04/05/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2801 posts
03:25pm 04/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15562 posts

1 July 2013 $507,338


So 9757 before tax is about right.

Obama takes in $400,000.

So its correct, Tony earns more in straight salaries than the President of America, to be more inline it seems, he should be 'earning' about $200,000.

Remember Tonez also has a s*** ton of other benefits, including prime minister pension when he gets kicked out of office, because you know, being paid more than the President of America for 4 years isn't enough. Kruddles got paid this much too.
03:50pm 04/05/14 Permalink
jum
Queensland
689 posts
a fair week's pay for a honest week's work
04:12pm 04/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1823 posts
yes, many people are required to either travel (salespeople) or relocate (army/teachers) as part of their employment. if a person wants employment they will go where the work is and not wring their hands.


Actually, they all get paid money to do their travel. ADF personnel get big bucks to move, my last move in the RAAF (1993) was worth $35K with free accommodation for my family on top of my normal pay. I was also promoted so I got a pay rise after I got there too.

Please do keep making statements about things you know nothing about.
04:13pm 04/05/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4970 posts
Hazelnut. The mrs bought me one of each and I thought green would be mint. I had to check that s***..

Yum

Dole bludger, welfare, rich elite, door
05:18pm 04/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19591 posts
HJ i think he is not talking about being relocated within an existing job

more moving to another town to try and find a job
05:28pm 04/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1331 posts
09:55am 05/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8466 posts
Even their previous party treasurer is saying that it's a bulls*** political move.
10:03am 06/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37692 posts
Trust me, being on the dole long-term is worse than actually just getting a job.
really, how weird
10:23am 06/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15579 posts
Another increase in tax eh? Increase the Fuel Excise. That is a great idea. Take money away from those that can least afford it, then just be sure you kick them hard, make fuel prices higher. Increased fuel prices surely wont affect the price of necessities like food.

So this Government seems like they are trying pretty darn hard to raise the cost of living whilst also taking money away from people that need it. With less money going around that is sure to create new jobs for all these unemployed people to be forced to find.
01:02pm 08/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24221 posts
edit: actually, f*** it
05:48pm 08/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37703 posts
Increasing the cost of petrol sounds awesome to me; then Elon Musk will come and save us
02:00am 09/05/14 Permalink
baz
Victoria
523 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Pointless
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02:25am 09/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37811 posts
Increasing the cost of petrol sounds awesome to me; then Elon Musk will come and save us


as i have made a bet with some mates to do more ks on my bike than they have in 6 months, i sort of agree.

but its a c*** act to the poor, so we cant :(

poor people cant afford electric cars, or even public transport
05:16am 09/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8473 posts
05:42am 09/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37705 posts


as i have made a bet with some mates to do more ks on my bike than they have in 6 months, i sort of agree.

but its a c*** act to the poor, so we cant :(

poor people cant afford electric cars, or even public transport
well there's no numbers (at least that I've seen) about what this new "excise" is (how good is this government about finding new ways to not call things taxes btw? bravo), so it'll be hard to tell how it will affect "the poors".

When in .au I spend ~$40/mo on petrol so I have no idea what it's like for people who drive to work every day. Qld Transport prices are pretty high though so it wouldn't surprise me if it was less affordable for some people than driving, in some circumstances.
06:14am 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15584 posts
With my motorbike, it is cheaper to run it, maintain it, and park it than it is to use public transport. Oh and it gets me to work about 20 mins earlier then Public transport.

So any raise in fuel excise for me is money taken out of the local economy and put into government coffers to be used to fund fuel rebates for the mining industry. Thanks gov.

Trog, don't forget the flow on effects of increased prices of anything delivered by trucks, ie groceries.

This will be happening in a time where all your base costs like electricity, water, food in general have been increasing quite heavily. Combine that with cuts to welfare and you put your less well off people in a really s***** position.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 07:51:25 09/May/14
07:49am 09/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24224 posts
Public transport is literally an impossibility for me as a get to work option. It's a car straight up the M1 or it's nothing.
07:57am 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15585 posts
Ohh, lol. Also don't forget that Infi (a good indicator of Liberal Policy) expects people who can't afford to live in the city to move out further were rent is cheaper, so they have to travel much further to get to work, with increased fuel costs. What great policies.
08:00am 09/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37817 posts
poor people problems bro, nothing for infi to be concerned with.
08:22am 09/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1336 posts
As usual, socialism for big business and capitalism for the rest of us.
08:25am 09/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37709 posts
Ohh, lol. Also don't forget that Infi (a good indicator of Liberal Policy) expects people who can't afford to live in the city to move out further were rent is cheaper, so they have to travel much further to get to work, with increased fuel costs. What great policies.
the more people that move out of the city, the lower the city rental prices will become
Public transport is literally an impossibility for me as a get to work option. It's a car straight up the M1 or it's nothing.
Out of interest because there are no public transport options at your source, destination, or both?

I don't see the issue of more expensive petrol as a problem. Recall that gas basically doubled in price over the course of a few years (haha at this thread from 2004 when gas was about to crack $1/L; those were the days). There was some increased pressure on some people, sure, but the world didn't end and people adapted.
08:58am 09/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19607 posts
to be completely honest whenever i've seen the shots on the news of joe hockey about this new budget the looks on his face always seem to remind me of this:

http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing-dog.jpg
09:00am 09/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
932 posts

mhmm vash just because someone is a "business owner" doesnt make them a c***. Thats almost as bad as saying just because someone is rich they are a c***.




This is the narrative that the Greens have been pushing though and its been catching on.

If you own a business = Greedy, cruel and evil and if you earn a profit, you are worse than hitler.

It's why the constantly use Gina Rheinhart as a punching bag for everything. "oh cutting the public service to save money, must be for Gina and her mates" Heres an example of it from their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Australian.Greens/photos/a.188144713662.125246.6442438662/10152080389098663/?type=1

So according to them, the current government is making cuts for "Gina" not because we are in massive amounts of debt. These people are delusional.
09:51am 09/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15087 posts
the more people that move out of the city, the lower the city rental prices will become

This is terrible policy / thinking. Urban sprawl is a problem, not a solution to anything.
09:57am 09/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
24 posts
I dream of the day our roads are filled with nothing but trucks, car enthusiasts and public transport (taxi's, buses) with every one riding bikes or catching some ses to get to places.

Damn the electric car will be ruining this dream.
10:08am 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15586 posts

If you own a business = Greedy, cruel and evil and if you earn a profit, you are worse than hitler.

It's why the constantly use Gina Rheinhart as a punching bag for everything. "oh cutting the public service to save money, must be for Gina and her mates" Heres an example of it from their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Australian.Greens/photos/a.188144713662.125246.6442438662/10152080389098663/?type=1


That isn't true at all. That link you posted is a response to the mining industry tax breaks that, during a 'budget emergency' aren't getting reduced. Since Gina is the biggest mining magnate in Australia they are attacking that, but you know this and you don't want to see it that way.

Those photos of abbot being super chummy with the Gina and Murdoch don't help at all.
10:46am 09/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2282 posts
In response to Vash's pic :

It doesnt matter if our debt is "one of the lowest" in the OECD. It's our ability to service the debt that is a problem.

Over the last few budgets, if my memory serves me correctly, revenue has weakened in proportion to spending & economic growth within our lovely little nation. While I don't like the idea of paying a little bit more now, there is a risk that if it is not addressed a higher proportion of future revenue will be spent on servicing debt rather than reform & economic stimulus. Tax sucks and I'm not exactly impressed but paying less now is better than paying more later (and losing other services too!).

When it comes to petrol, it is a s*** tax - only about a quarter of the current levy actually went back into our Road infrastructure. If the new revenue were to be put back into the public infrastructure it is OK in my opinion. (My car uses 11L/100km).
11:09am 09/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37713 posts





This is the narrative that the Greens have been pushing though and its been catching on.

If you own a business = Greedy, cruel and evil and if you earn a profit, you are worse than hitler.

It's why the constantly use Gina Rheinhart as a punching bag for everything. "oh cutting the public service to save money, must be for Gina and her mates" Heres an example of it from their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Australian.Greens/photos/a.188144713662.125246.6442438662/10152080389098663/?type=1

So according to them, the current government is making cuts for "Gina" not because we are in massive amounts of debt. These people are delusional.
that is dumb, and you are dumb for saying it and thinking it

Pointing at a Gina example is dumb. The average business owner is not a mining billionaire.

Maybe you have some other examples?

edit: sorry, I might not be clear there - I mean examples that are not dumb
11:21am 09/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
11386 posts
This post has been removed.
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01:27pm 09/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24225 posts
Edit: response to nuked post
01:36pm 09/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21482 posts
the thing no one realises is that the fuel excise has been frozen since 2001 (prior to that time it was indexed annually) and the increase being proposed would still have the fuel excise lower than if the excise has been indexed every year.

as per usual whinging consumers are whinging for the sake of whinging (I mean what else do Aussies do better right?)

Aussies have to suck it up and realise if they want to live in a regulated closed shop labor market, then everything costs a f***ton. if you want cheap fuel you can move to the USA or Singapore.

as to the subsidies for the mining and farming industry i don't have any sympathy for them eaither and all subsidies should go. services have to be paid for and the more user pays taxes the better as far as I am concerned. i don't get a subsidy for fuel in my business and nor should they. they are already getting a 40% discount on fueld by having a tax deduction plus gst rebate.
01:44pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15091 posts
Yup, freezing the excise was a mistake, even Howard admitted to it.
01:47pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3952 posts
Freezing it was to save face for all the other bulls*** Howard was trying to pull.

At this point Abbott is becoming so unpopular it seems he gives no f****. Hopefully he doesn't do too much damage before Labor gets back in
02:27pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Ha
Brisbane, Queensland
331 posts
This post has been removed.
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02:30pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13525 posts
Hopefully he doesn't do too much damage before Labor gets back in

short memory must have a... shoooooooooooort memory

they're both atrocious
02:31pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3953 posts
Labor is the lesser of two evils.
03:16pm 09/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
933 posts
Budget Change Deniers love to pretend there is no problem with the budget and because our debt is not ridiculously large(like Greece for example) so apparently we have no problem.

What they refuse to acknowledge is the projected debt and deficit levels if we continue on the same budget path. I'll once again use my analogy that its like driving towards a cliff at 100km an hour and saying "its ok, we aren't over the cliff yet so we don't need to do anything"

http://i.imgur.com/Xr56Gn7.jpg

The figures from the MYFEO clearly show we are in big trouble if we do not act now by changing our spending patterns and yes it is an emergency. Labor and other Budget Change Deniers have no plan whatsoever to fix the problems or curb growth in spending because they deny they even exist.

Labor is the lesser of two evils.


Of course you would think that because you are a supporter of economic and financial incompetence as shown by your support of endless taxes and endless debt


that is dumb, and you are dumb for saying it and thinking it

Pointing at a Gina example is dumb. The average business owner is not a mining billionaire.

Maybe you have some other examples?

edit: sorry, I might not be clear there - I mean examples that are not dumb



What i meant is that they use her name as a symbol when criticizing government policy. If the government does something that will help businesses and companies the Greens say something like "Oh this is just meant to help Gina and Rupert" meaning it will help highly profitable businesses and companies make more profit which is apparently a bad thing according to them.

The Greens are utterly obsessed with Gina and Rupert. They mention their names in basically every media conference they hold.
03:24pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3954 posts
Labor puts in smarter taxes and doesn't fold when big business gets angry.

Revenue from Mining Tax (PEFO est):
2013-14: $850m
2014-15: $1.1b
2015-16: $1.55b
2016-17: $2.45b

Revenue from debt levy: Approx $700m pa


endless taxes and endless debt


Except our spending is higher since libs got into government, and they're introducing more taxes?


The Greens are utterly obsessed with Gina and Rupert. They mention their names in basically every media conference they hold.


Just like the liberals are obsessed with blaming Labor for everything?
Plus, Rupert does have an agenda to keep the Libs in power, to protect his business interests from competition. That's not very free market of the libs.
03:29pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15589 posts

Budget Deniers


What a loaded set of words.

People are not denying the budget needs to be changed numb nuts. Almost everyone agrees that it can't continue the way it is unchanged for 20 years or so.

The details are in how are we going to change the budget, and calling it an 'Emergency' just puts emotional spin on it that offers no help in negotiations, trying to force changes based on fear of a false 'emergency' is piss poor government.

I like how you show a graph that is in raw $'s, unrelated to other information such as total government income. I'm guessing that is because it shows a growing number that you are trying to claim proof as the 'Budget Emergency'. What nonsess.

I'm well aware of the fuel excise being frozen. I'm calling it bad timing to unfreeze and adjust it at the same time as cutting into economy, double whammy, surely you can understand how that doesn't do well for confidence and getting money flowing through a weak economy?
We don't have to have a surplus tomorrow or next year, s*** we don't need it for 5-10 years. So don't smash the economy so hard that it risks deflation (OMG see how easy it is to be a drama queen, using stupid exaggerations).
03:47pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3957 posts
spot on toll. all this cutting & increase in tax is harming the economy. There is no need to rush into a surplus. gradually decrease spending as labor was already doing.
03:54pm 09/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24226 posts
It's kind of amusing how Brool thinks people will be swayed by the same flimsy evidence that he has been fooled by.

One of the big steps to becoming a normal functioning human for you Brool is to stop assuming that everyone is as stupid as you.
04:22pm 09/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21483 posts
Labor puts in smarter taxes and doesn't fold when big business gets angry.


Rudd folded on the original mining tax after sitting down with Australia's biggest miners. Now who is in bed with the miners again?

The constant comparison to debt to GDP is RELATIVE nonsense. It's like saying Australia only has one cancer so its ok because we don't have 120 cancers yet like America and Japan. The debt that has been accumulated (and is projected) is a result of bloated public service, ballooning welfare outlays and unfunded new spending programs such as the NDIS and Gonski reforms.

Keep in mind that it is years of endless deficit spending by those countries (mind you deficit spending that has done ZERO to get them out of their economic depressions so much for stimulus) at the top of the chart that got them there, they didn't get there in one year. If Labor was left in power we would end up there without a doubt. Labor can't hep themselves. In their last tenure they had a 100% deficit hit rate. I know Vash would love to get us to the top of the chart and thinks it is no big deal, let's just pray he never gets the chance.

Even worse is Australia's rate of public debt growth which tripled between 2008 and 2015 est rising from 13% to 37%. It is not a noble goal to aspire to 80% public debt like America.
05:39pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1337 posts



Rudd folded on the original mining tax after sitting down with Australia's biggest miners. Now who is in bed with the miners again?

The constant comparison to debt to GDP is RELATIVE nonsense. It's like saying Australia only has one cancer so its ok because we don't have 120 cancers yet like America and Japan. The debt that has been accumulated (and is projected) is a result of bloated public service, ballooning welfare outlays and unfunded new spending programs such as the NDIS and Gonski reforms.

Keep in mind that it is years of endless deficit spending by those countries (mind you deficit spending that has done ZERO to get them out of their economic depressions so much for stimulus) at the top of the chart that got them there, they didn't get there in one year. If Labor was left in power we would end up there without a doubt. Labor can't hep themselves. In their last tenure they had a 100% deficit hit rate. I know Vash would love to get us to the top of the chart and thinks it is no big deal, let's just pray he never gets the chance.


Except libs have doubled the deficit. What economic wizards!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-06/has-the-government-doubled-the-budget-deficit/5423392
05:48pm 09/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21484 posts




Except libs have doubled the deficit. What economic wizards!
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-06/has-the-government-doubled-the-budget-deficit/5423392


If you knew how to read a PEFO it would help.

Chris Bowen assumed GDP growth at over 5%. That is breakneck boomtime growth. Anything over 3% GDP is a gift. Governments loves to assume huge GDP growth figures because it gets them out of the s*** through magic. But it rarely ever comes to fruition (it does give deficit spenders comfort though). ABC fails again.
05:56pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3958 posts

Rudd folded on the original mining tax after sitting down with Australia's biggest miners. Now who is in bed with the miners again?


From memory he held firm then lost his prime ministership from big miners propaganda, and gillard then backed down.

There is simply no budget emergency, it cant be repeated anymore. we can gradually reduce spending and it will come under control.
05:56pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15092 posts
Has any reason been given why the Government gave the RBA 8 billion that they hadn't asked for and apparently didn't need during a budget emergency?

I am scratch my head. Is there are good answer to this? Why did it happen?
06:05pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15590 posts

Labor can't hep themselves. In their last tenure they had a 100% deficit hit rate.



Except libs have doubled the deficit. What economic wizards!


It's dumb stuff like this that is really holding back our country. It is far, far too common that any press release from Liberals, Labor, Greens takes a swipe at the .

The discussion should not be who caused this, who caused that. The realistic answer is both governments have done stupid stuff over time, they have both done good stuff.

Let's just focus on the good stuff that could be done whilst trying to avoid bad stuff 'Going forward', we don't need to blame anyone or anything.

So, it is a widely held belief from independent experts outside of government that Australia's economic outlook is quite good, providing we can slowly move ourselves towards a surplus within the next 10-20 years. It is also widely expressed by these experts that doing it too quickly risks hurting the current economy. Slow and steady my friends, slow and steady.
06:09pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15591 posts


Has any reason been given why the Government gave the RBA 8 billion that they hadn't asked for and apparently didn't need during a budget emergency?

I am scratch my head. Is there are good answer to this? Why did it happen



RBA did ask, not directly, they expressed disappointment that they haven't been funded properly. Which is about as far as the Reserve Bank goes in asking for stuff.

I don't know the full range of activities the reserve bank does and is responsible for so I'm not sure as to why they need 8 Billion is reserves. Presumably in case of unforeseen situations?
06:13pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15093 posts
Unfortunately 'no problem, slow and steady' doesn't fit the current Government's rhetoric. They don't have a lot of reason to do basically anything they are talking about with an emergency.

The cynic in me worries that the Government is using a blip in the nation's fiscal position, caused primarily by the GFC, to implement broad social policy changes that they haven't had an excuse to undertake in the past.
06:17pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3959 posts


this guy has no shame
06:45pm 09/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
934 posts


What a loaded set of words.

People are not denying the budget needs to be changed numb nuts. Almost everyone agrees that it can't continue the way it is unchanged for 20 years or so.


They aren't? From what i'm reading(in this thread, all over the internet, the news), they(people in general) are denying it needs to be changed and are denying there is even a problem. Especially Labor who has not ONCE acknowledged it, unless you have evidence that they have? They oppose all efforts to curb the growth in spending and projected debt and offer no alternative to the harsh measures proposed by the current government.

Ie; They are denying there is a problem and pretending it doesn't exist. Budget Change Deniers.

The details are in how are we going to change the budget, and calling it an 'Emergency' just puts emotional spin on it that offers no help in negotiations, trying to force changes based on fear of a false 'emergency' is piss poor government.


The main focus is on the details yes, but the narrative isn't "Ok we have a problem, we need to do these measure to fix it, or do you have an alternative measure to fix it? Lets have a debate on what can we do" but instead it's "There is no problem, we don't need to cut spending growth, its all a fantasy Tony Abbot is evil and is trying to ruin everything" in other words, down right denial and pretending we don't have a problem, mainly pushed by Labor(as i explained above) has not ONCE acknowledged the problem is real, has not offered ONE solution to fix it, but is instead trying to use it to gain political points to be re-elected. The sad thing is that if elected they are going to have to come up with a solution and actually acknowledge the problem if elected.

I like how you show a graph that is in raw $'s, unrelated to other information such as total government income. I'm guessing that is because it shows a growing number that you are trying to claim proof as the 'Budget Emergency'. What nonsess.


How much income the government is getting is irrelevant because debt is still growing and will grow massively. It's not like the government is borrowing money to fund infrastructure of worthwhile things, they are borrowing just to function. I see this fallacy posted all the time where debt level is apparently irrelevant if the government is getting a decent income to finance the debt. We shouldn't have debt for no worthwhile reason.

I'm well aware of the fuel excise being frozen. I'm calling it bad timing to unfreeze and adjust it at the same time as cutting into economy, double whammy, surely you can understand how that doesn't do well for confidence and getting money flowing through a weak economy?


I also agree that the fuel excise SHOULDN'T be unfrozen, infact it would be a disaster. It will hit families and businesses as much as the Carbon tax brain fart did.

We don't have to have a surplus tomorrow or next year, s*** we don't need it for 5-10 years. So don't smash the economy so hard that it risks deflation (OMG see how easy it is to be a drama queen, using stupid exaggerations).


It isn't about having a surplus tomorrow, its about not having a rapidly rising debt level via massive deficits for the next 10 years and probably beyond which is what will occur(projected by the treasury, shown in my graph) unless major changes in spending growth are curbed and in-which Labor and co refuse to acknowledge the existence of.

I must commend you though Tollaz0r! for actually acknowledging there is a problem, despite how big or small you think the problem is and how badly you think its being handled, instead of being like people such as Vash who HONESTLY believe that Tony Abbot is some sort of anti-christ and is cutting things for "fun" and because he is "evil" and that there is no spending growth or debt growth projected and it's all a "murdoch media" conspiracy.

spot on toll. all this cutting & increase in tax is harming the economy. There is no need to rush into a surplus. gradually decrease spending as labor was already doing.


This proves you are just a anti-tony abbot herp derper. In your previous posts you have been frothing at spending cuts and pretending there is no budget problem and there is no need for spending cuts, yet here you are saying Labor should do it and were already doing it.

Why were Labor doing it if no problem exists? Caught out Vash, caught out.,
08:29pm 09/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1376 posts
How much income the government is getting is irrelevant because debt is still growing and will grow massively.


Thank you, we may now ignore your opinion of government debt altogether.
08:59pm 09/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3962 posts
hahaha
09:04pm 09/05/14 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
577 posts
Mind-boggling that people are willing to invest so much time arguing about politics.
09:47pm 09/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37714 posts
Mind-boggling that people are willing to invest so much time arguing about politics.
it is mind boggling that most people are NOT. Have a look at your payslip the next time you get one and realise that chunk that they take out of it is money out of YOUR pocket. People are used to the government taking 25%-50% of their income - how could you not want to make sure that they're doing Useful Stuff with it?
01:29am 10/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3963 posts
spot on troggles. our taxes are pretty high. and the coalition want to tax us more, while taking away the benefits our high taxes provide. just nuts.
01:54am 10/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
663 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: uncited pointless b****ing
Send Private Message
02:16am 10/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37827 posts
Mind-boggling that people are willing to invest so much time arguing about politics.


again, i vote we rename qgl, qpl.
07:14am 10/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24228 posts
It's kind of funny. Quake vs. Counter-Strike used to be the massive argument starter here. Then it became car threads. Now it's politics threads. Pretty sure Brool has been posting wrong stuff in all of them for a period of about 14 years now.
07:16am 10/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15592 posts

We shouldn't have debt for no worthwhile reason.


Here is the crux of the argument. You are correct, we shouldn't have dept for no worthwhile reason. "Worthwhile" is a very broad term and what is worthwhile can change significantly between people.

09:54am 10/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1377 posts
we shouldn't have dept for no worthwhile reason


Turns out one worth while reason is to maintain access to cheap credit source.

The key reasons for maintaining CGS, that is keeping gross government debt at a particular level, was to have a risk free security that would be the benchmark for the pricing of all other debt and that would underpin the three and 10 year bond futures contracts.

It turned out to be a prudent decision from Costello.

While liquidity and bond market turnover receded in the period up to 2008, the onset of the GFC saw the AOFM easily and cost effectively issue bonds thereby borrowing the funds required to fund the budget deficit.
10:02am 10/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15593 posts
Just so you know, this is how America currently looks with its wealth distribution:

http://www.financialsocialwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/safe_image.jpeg

This is something I desperately don't want to see in Australia, which by all measures is heading that way. Policies that cut welfare, without touching the high end side of town much facilitate this. At least Tonez is taxing the rich a little extra, which they are whinging about a lot. I can't make up my mind if Tonez is doing this because he thinks it is the right thing to do, or to score political points with the less well off.
10:13am 10/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15594 posts


This is the video the above capture is taken from, worth spending 5 mins watching.
10:16am 10/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24231 posts
Australian Border Force

A quote from Scott Morrison not in that article -

“It brings together enforcement officers, investigation officers, those working beyond our borders, those working at sea, at the airports, sea ports, into an integrated agency that's focused on one thing and that's protecting our most important, I'd argue, national asset - our border,” Mr Morrison told ABC radio on Friday.


hahahaha. Wait I mean...

:(
07:46am 11/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15094 posts
The problem is toll that the rich peoples share is a temporary tax while the changes to social welfare are permanent.

in particular I am concerned with Medicare changes. Our universal health care is a national treasure that the coalition for some bizarre reason seeks to delete. Yes healthcare is expensive, but our bill is among the lowest in the OECD. Why f*** with it other than that it helps poor people and it was an ALP policy?
08:29am 11/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19620 posts
Our universal health care is a national treasure


f*****g oath it is, as someone who has dealt with it first hand for the past year and still counting it still blows me away how awesome everyone has been for very little of my own out lay.

i'm going to say at a guess your average person even with insurance couldn't afford cancer treatment through private health care, without going into debt
08:40am 11/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21485 posts


f*****g oath it is, as someone who has dealt with it first hand for the past year and still counting it still blows me away how awesome everyone has been for very little of my own out lay.

i'm going to say at a guess your average person even with insurance couldn't afford cancer treatment through private health care, without going into debt


and that will continue to be the case. the co-payment is a price signal to stop people abusing our free health system for stupid s***, so it can help people who really need it. if you ever call a GPs office notice when the next bulk billing available appointment is vs the dr who charges $35 consultation...

resources in this world are limited either by price or queue.
08:58am 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15595 posts
I'm OK for a co-payment, for all those not holding a health-care card. If you have a health-care card, then no-payment.

Also those diagnosed with chronic diseases should also be exempt from paying.
09:08am 11/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15095 posts
Problem is that the system proposed won't allow doctors decide to bulk bill or not.

So someone like me with multiple chronic conditions trying to stay well just takes it up the clacker. The individual payments are not an issue its just that EVERYTHING has a small copayment and if you rack up a couple of diseases its very easy already to have out of pocket health costs turn into hundreds or even thousands of dollars per year.

if its just a price signal for frivolous visits .... Where's the exemption for diagnosed chronic illness?
09:35am 11/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6825 posts
09:42am 11/05/14 Permalink
shad
Brisbane, Queensland
4072 posts
Will a co-payment apply to an emergency ward because that is where I see most of the people going now if they have to pay a fee.
09:45am 11/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19623 posts
and that will continue to be the case. the co-payment is a price signal to stop people abusing our free health system for stupid s***,


yeah i guess on the flip side the amount of jew c**** that rock up to the emergency section at hospitals for something like a stomach ache or a cold just because it's free

get a letter from a GP saying you have had chest pains and probably cancer see how fast they take you in ;)

when i went in through emergency they took me straight in because i had above mentioned letter and emergency was pretty empty when i went in but when i got there there was some derro looking guy getting aggressive at the counter person because i think they weren't taking him in and making him wait can't quite remember but it was just bulls***, the guy was basically a d******* with something that a GP could easily take care of but decided to go to the f***** emergency section at the hospital and they weren't taking him yet - so i guess they have their way of trying to sort that problem, but a payment would maybe take care of that problem but the hospital would still be cheaper than a GP...
09:59am 11/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1425 posts


yeah i guess on the flip side the amount of jew c**** that rock up to the emergency section at hospitals for something like a stomach ache or a cold just because it's free

get a letter from a GP saying you have had chest pains and probably cancer see how fast they take you in ;)

when i went in through emergency they took me straight in because i had above mentioned letter and emergency was pretty empty when i went in but when i got there there was some derro looking guy getting aggressive at the counter person because i think they weren't taking him in and making him wait can't quite remember but it was just bulls***, the guy was basically a d******* with something that a GP could easily take care of but decided to go to the f***** emergency section at the hospital and they weren't taking him yet - so i guess they have their way of trying to sort that problem, but a payment would maybe take care of that problem but the hospital would still be cheaper than a GP...


That whole story reminds me of my time spent in emergency. I had a split lip and a broken nose that was bleeding still and my lip split went the whole way through to the inside of my mouth.

3 hours later, I got in to see a doctor. Though in my defence, it was 3am and no GP's were open.
10:58am 11/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1903 posts
Gee, you must have been sleeping pretty hard to get a split lip that bad at that time of the morning.
12:18pm 11/05/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11084 posts
Pay Freeze on MPs salaries !

Those MPs families will struggle with that sacrifice.

01:06pm 11/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21486 posts
$3,000 ain't beer money and better than doing nothing and letting them have a pay rise.
04:06pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15596 posts
Yes, I still can't help but feel these are token gestures by Prime Minster Abbot to try and score political points. It isn't coming across as genuine.

Infi, do you want wealth inequity to the scale of America? I'm asking out of curiosity. If you do, why? if you don't what policies do you think would help prevent such gross inequality?
05:18pm 11/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21487 posts
I think everyone should get what they deserve through lawful behaviour such as free trade and voluntary assignment of assets. I most certainly do not approve stealing wealth through taxation or criminal activity.

This accumulation of wealth is often not as grotesque as it is seems. Insanely rich people have their wealth tied up in assets which are actually job creating i.e. factories, skyscrapers, oilfields, shares in large companies. These assets create the jobs that tax happy muppets think just magically appear. Wealthy billionaires do not sleep on a billion dollars of cash. That fallacy comes from reading too much Annie, Richie Rich and Donald Duck.

The government provides a safety net for people who have nothing, as to government implementing policy taxing from rich to give a little bit more to people who have less, that's just greed and envy. It's always going to be an easy sell to convince the majority of middle class people that it's a good idea to steal from rich people, because "it will never happen to them".

Aside from a welfare safety net I don't support any taxation for wealth inequality purposes.
05:31pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15597 posts

This accumulation of wealth is often not as grotesque as it is seems. Insanely rich people have their wealth tied up in assets which are actually job creating i.e. factories, skyscrapers, oilfields, shares in large companies. These assets create the jobs that tax happy muppets think just magically appear. Wealthy billionaires do not sleep on a billion dollars of cash. That fallacy comes from reading too much Annie, Richie Rich and Donald Duck.


Trickle Down theory.

There is also absolutely no reason why middle class cant own factories, and so forth, creating exact same amount of jobs, yet have the wealth spread equally.

So you think it is healthy for society that an exceptionally minor few have most of the wealth of a country? If that money was spread out more evenly you wouldn't need welfare would you.

Capitalism is broke, it causes a continued widening of a poverty gap making fewer and fewer people richer and richer and more and more people poorer and poorer. It is a broken system, taking form the rich is needed.
05:52pm 11/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21488 posts
There is also absolutely no reason why middle class cant own factories, and so forth, creating exact same amount of jobs, yet have the wealth spread equally.


and they do through their personal savings and super funds. to own a factory they have to purchase a factory, as opposed to what you are suggesting which is being given a factory. no one every appreciated anything given to them for free.

If that money was spread out more evenly you wouldn't need welfare would you.


of course you would, stop being so naive. the alcoholic, gambler, or careless bogan would simply waste it on unnecessary consumption.

it is such a simple yet breathtakingly retarded concept. steal from the rich, they don't need it all. try changing the essential rules of monpoly and see how long the game lasts.
06:05pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15598 posts
It is the best system we have though. It doesn't mean we should just leave it there, we should continue to find better ways so that all of humanity is well served and extreme poverty and starvation doesn't happen.

I personally would like to see an income capped for an individual and perhaps for business too. For example no 1 person can earn more than $10million, anything above that is taxed away for example. Still gives plenty of incentive for 80% of the people to work hard as most will never attain that. Yeah it might prevent mega-corporations and insanely rich people making jobs, but it leaves big gaps in the market for other people make that money instead, thus making jobs.
Something to ponder anyway.
06:10pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15599 posts
As for Trickle down theory:

Matthew Effect.



and they do through their personal savings and super funds. to own a factory they have to purchase a factory, as opposed to what you are suggesting which is
being given a factory. no one every appreciated anything given to them for free.


I didn't say that at all, people still have to work just as hard to earn. And you don't be so naive to think that everyone on low income doesn't work hard.



of course you would, stop being so naive. the alcoholic, gambler, or careless bogan would simply waste it on unnecessary consumption.


Yeah fair enough, you got me there. I still don't think the problems of the few should punish the many.


it is such a simple yet breathtakingly retarded concept. steal from the rich, they don't need it all. try changing the essential rules of monpoly and see how long the game lasts.


Oh, I have. Monopoly is a terrible game. It is generally over in the first 1/4 to 1/2 of the game, the rest is simply going through the motions. Terrible game. Ironic you used it as an analogy.

Also, just for fun. Monopoly is ranked at the 4000 and down at boardgamegeeks. ie there is a s***ton of better games. Even more amusing, is the Monopoly card game, is ranked at about 1400. So Monopoly, with the rules changed as you suggest, is actually significantly better.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 18:47:17 11/May/14
06:37pm 11/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2285 posts
i look forward to playing monopoly at mcdonalds
08:24pm 11/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1905 posts
Yeah, it's that time of year soon.
08:27pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3964 posts
I think we need to move away from our current systems into a more resource distributed economy that is built upon sustainability.
As it is now, the earth will only be able to sustain our standard of living for maybe another 100 years.

Maybe a hybrid communist system that isn't too government controlled.
10:25pm 11/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2286 posts
Maybe a hybrid communist system that isn't too government controlled.


More information needed.
10:58pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15600 posts
Yeah a system based fundamentally on growth is going to have a bad time when you can't grow much any more.
10:59pm 11/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21489 posts
Maybe a hybrid communist system that isn't too government controlled.


so aside from having a government completely in control of our personal wealth we should keep government control to a minimum in your alternative nirvana?

I didn't say that at all, people still have to work just as hard to earn. And you don't be so naive to think that everyone on low income doesn't work hard.


so Toll you are advocating a system which taxes high income earners to give further money to workers on for example $30k and $40k just so they can live more comfortably. this money just drops in their bank accounts free from obligations it is simply the result of redistributing the money rich people don't need... employed, healthy people who just need a top up for jetskis and private school and 4WDs etc. am I understanding this correctly? assuming of course they work hard.
11:00pm 11/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3965 posts
I'm saying have minimal national wide government, perhaps more localised governments.
The only way this could even work is if the whole world took it on, so meh... wont happen.
I was thinking along the lines of zeitgeist.

All forms of growth are unsustainable
01:11am 12/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
936 posts
I love how Vash has basically gone from die hard socialist to small government and low taxes over night.

Truly Amazing.
01:13am 12/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3966 posts
a mix of socialism is better than all out free market consumption. If we cant have socialism, lets go resource based for sustainability.
I think it will take a massive worldwide economic crash to reach that point though
01:15am 12/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15601 posts

so Toll you are advocating a system which taxes high income earners to give further money to workers on for example $30k and $40k just so they can live more comfortably. this money just drops in their bank accounts free from obligations it is simply the result of redistributing the money rich people don't need... employed, healthy people who just need a top up for jetskis and private school and 4WDs etc. am I understanding this correctly?


I dunno, maybe. I know that it is totally s*** if the vast wealth of a country is concentrated into the hands of a few minor few, whilst the majority of the country who actually DO the work get far less of it.

I wonder how different the world would be, if your pay was directly attributed to the amount of physical work you have to do. So people who are required to work their body the hardest get paid the most, it almost seems opposite to that.
07:50am 12/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19629 posts
I wonder how different the world would be, if your pay was directly attributed to the amount of physical work you have to do. So people who are required to work their body the hardest get paid the most, it almost seems opposite to that.


nothing would get done correctly lul

as an engineer that works mostly in an off if there is one thing i know about the guys that actually do the physical work, they think they know more than anyone else

but the fact is, they don't. otherwise i'd be out of a job.
08:11am 12/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15604 posts
Yeah that kind of happens, sometimes both ways. Yet without those people nothing gets done.
09:26am 12/05/14 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6452 posts
I wonder how different the world would be, if your pay was directly attributed to the amount of physical work you have to do.


The ghost of Karl Marx just got a hard on.
10:42am 12/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1426 posts
Gee, you must have been sleeping pretty hard to get a split lip that bad at that time of the morning.


I take my sleep VERY seriously...

(It was actually some drugged out twat whose drugged out twat GF had told that I "forcibly touched her" during a party. I actually tapped her on the shoulder, but semantics... As he had 4 friends with bats and tire irons in his car, I felt like fighting back might be more painful than not.)
11:02am 12/05/14 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
5709 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
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11:18am 12/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
9778 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: quotes deleted post
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11:48am 12/05/14 Permalink
Ha
Brisbane, Queensland
334 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
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12:11pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15097 posts
...

What if the goal isn't the change the other person's viewpoint, rather engage in robust debate in order to understand it fully, thereby expanding your own horizons with another human's perspective and life philosophy, regardless of whether you happen agree with it or not?
12:50pm 12/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1909 posts
Yeah but that's not what's happening here. What is happening here is best illustrated in the following picture:

http://i.imgur.com/hzM6wIr.jpg
12:55pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Ha
Brisbane, Queensland
335 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Douchebag overload
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12:56pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15606 posts
I can feel myself starting to go full retard.
12:59pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1341 posts
I can feel myself starting to go full retard.


I can too. Why is the government privatising the mint? FFS, it's not like there will be competition to decide which notes we're using.
01:26pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8461 posts
The government is privatising the mint?!! Holy crap, how do I get me in on that license to print money??!
01:52pm 12/05/14 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
10979 posts
I love how Vash has basically gone from die hard socialist to small government and low taxes over night.

Truly Amazing.
What's the old saying? If you aren't a socialist at 20 you have no heart, but if you aren't a conservative by 30 you have no head?
01:59pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15098 posts
because listening to someone posting on a video game forum talking about politics means you will be stupider, and not listening to them makes it pointless. there is no 'robust debate' going on in this thread

There's at least one f***wit posting in a thread solely to have a go at people, so we got that going for us.
02:52pm 12/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
937 posts

The government simply isn't being hard enough. The budget could easily be turned around and returned to surplus in 1 year if the government released a REAL Liberal budget.

The LDP has released an alternative budget which returns us back to surplus within 1 year. It's a great read, the government should take note.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/budget_for_real_liberal_mABwgz5ztjYDmbIqpVVU3I



There are three steps necessary to bring the Australian economy back to health: (1) tax reform and deregulation to boost economic growth; (2) cut government over-spending to immediately bring the budget back to surplus and start paying down the national debt; and (3) structural reforms that ensures government spending is sustainable in the long run.


I wonder if and when will the Labor party actually acknowledge there's a problem and come up with their own solution instead of being Budget Change Deniers?
03:14pm 12/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2289 posts
The government simply isn't being hard enough. The budget could easily be turned around and returned to surplus in 1 year if the government released a REAL Liberal budget.

The LDP has released an alternative budget which returns us back to surplus within 1 year. It's a great read, the government should take note.


That'll be a real good way to send an economy into recession.

This is fiscal policy designed for long-term planning, they simply can't make sweeping reform to bring a budget back into black.
03:40pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1342 posts

The government simply isn't being hard enough. The budget could easily be turned around and returned to surplus in 1 year if the government released a REAL Liberal budget.

The LDP has released an alternative budget which returns us back to surplus within 1 year. It's a great read, the government should take note.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/budget_for_real_liberal_mABwgz5ztjYDmbIqpVVU3I





I wonder if and when will the Labor party actually acknowledge there's a problem and come up with their own solution instead of being Budget Change Deniers?


lol, that f*****g guy gets in on a rort then writes this kind of tripe.

The top marginal tax rates in Australia exist mostly because of the politics of envy. It is well known that the top tax rate raises very little revenue while causing significant economic costs, and that the main reason it is retained is to pander to the tall poppy syndrome.


You have got to be kidding.
04:36pm 12/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24235 posts
The Lolbertarian Democratic Party.
04:38pm 12/05/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11086 posts
according to Ten News it seems the Politicians payrise wasnt going to happen anyway, the regulator denied them a rise last month.
what a sacrifice.


05:18pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Ha
Brisbane, Queensland
336 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Douchebag overload
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06:10pm 12/05/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4990 posts
I personally would love to see pollie pay tied to minimum wage, at all levels

make a point worth the yearly salary of minimum wage (without penalty rates), then all the pollies wages are worked out on points
06:24pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12213 posts
No clue if this has been posted yet, I keep my eyes out of here because I don't full understand things.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/pension-access-clive-palmer-wants-mps-treated-the-same-as-all-citizens?CMP=soc_567
Clive Palmer plans to introduce a private member’s bill to align the pension age with the age that politicians are able to access their superannuation.
Usually I think Palmer is a rather loony man, but this actually makes a lot of sense, and would show whether the Liberal's are truly "doing the hard yard" that they keep wanting us to do with the upcoming budget changes.
06:36pm 12/05/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4986 posts
in conjunction with above

Clive video interview
07:04pm 12/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1832 posts
The government is privatising the mint?!! Holy crap, how do I get me in on that license to print money??!


Buy the Mint then make the government pay more to print money whilst skimming from the production line.
08:35pm 12/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2468 posts
08:36pm 12/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1378 posts
palmer is buying coal mining for ever.
anything generous just shows how profitable it is. That is the sum total of the equation
09:46pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12216 posts
This dude's channel is brilliant.

10:05pm 12/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21491 posts
greens and labor are going to vote against deficit levy. they are against spending cuts. so they just want to do nothing. this is why they were thrown out.
10:32pm 12/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3967 posts
wrong. they're against new taxes.
Labor reduced their spending gradually after GFC.
10:36pm 12/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
938 posts


That'll be a real good way to send an economy into recession.

This is fiscal policy designed for long-term planning, they simply can't make sweeping reform to bring a budget back into black.


Seems to me you didn't read the article. What a bizarre claim to make that the country would go into recession if government spending is cut. Government spending contributes next to nothing to our GDP GROWTH.

greens and labor are going to vote against deficit levy. they are against spending cuts. so they just want to do nothing. this is why they were thrown out.


Yep, they are Budget Change Deniers. I wonder how much longer they will deny a problem even exists? What exactly will Shortez say in his budget reply? Surely he would be offering up a solution to the problem in his budget response.

Won't be holding my breath though.
12:33am 13/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37719 posts
greens and labor are going to vote against deficit levy. they are against spending cuts. so they just want to do nothing. this is why they were thrown out.
I can't really figure out from your comments if you're pro-more-taxes or anti-new-taxes?
01:36am 13/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13527 posts
he's pro... liberal party
the end
03:41am 13/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24237 posts
Seems to me you didn't read the article. What a bizarre claim to make that the country would go into recession if government spending is cut. Government spending contributes next to nothing to our GDP GROWTH.
I read the whole article. The lolbertarian guy said that to make up for a $250 million shortfall people would just donate it out of the kindness of their hearts. He thinks that once the tax rate has been cut people will just give the money away instead. This makes perfect sense. The man is brilliant. Lolbertarians have it all figured out.

The whole thing was just a bunch of citation required nonsense. It was actually pretty much exactly like all of your posts.

edit:
Government spending contributes next to nothing to our GDP GROWTH.
oh and hahaha, ahaha, hahahaha

What about roads? If the government spent nothing on roads, do you think our GDP would go up or down?

What about health? If the government spent nothing on health, do you think our GDP would go up or down?

What about education? If the government spent nothing on education, do you think our GDP would go up or down? I could go on for days here.

You're wronger than wrong and dumber than dumb.
05:18am 13/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2469 posts
They should just increase taxes on mining companies and stop giving them concessions on things like fuel. It's not like they can go to another country to dig all this s*** up and sell. It'd reduce the burden on average families. It's stupid to make things like doctor visits and the like more expensive for the average Australian, while Dame Rineheart still gets all these concessions for making billions off resources.
05:56am 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15609 posts

while Dame Rineheart still gets all these concessions for making billions off resources.


No, she gets billions by getting other people to dig it up the resources and sell it the highest bidder. She doesn't make anything. The jobs would be there with or without gina, someone would dig em up.
06:35am 13/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24239 posts
http://imgur.com/jUwJEy5

Can't seem to get the image to come up on my phone but uhhh, is this a thing that dolt actually said because damn
07:51am 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15610 posts

There just aren’t enough people wanting to go from a particular place to a particular destination at a particular time to justify any vehicle larger than a car, and cars need roads.


It came from Tony Abbots book. He thinks intra-city transport should be done in cars, what a numpty.
08:23am 13/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24240 posts
That's the sort of comment I'd expect the village idiot of a forum to say. The leader of our country published it in a book. God help us.
08:42am 13/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1344 posts
12:20pm 13/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21492 posts
I can't really figure out from your comments if you're pro-more-taxes or anti-new-taxes?


My comment you are referring to is not about what I want, it's about what do the greens and labor stand for? Remember when they accused Tonez of being opposed to everything? Well here we are full circle.

I am personally pro less taxes and less government spending. You already know that and are being deliberately obtuse. And Jim is making deliberately false comments. I have already said I am opposed to new taxes which is Liberal policy so how can you say I am blindly pro-liberal... Jim and Trog distributing misinformation..... sad.

As to fpot's suggestion that government spending grows GDP, he doesn't realise that before a government can spend money, they first had to take the money from a taxpayer who was also going to spend that very same money. the only way government spending can grow an economy is through deficit spending either by borrowing the money (interest bill to follow) or printing the money (inflation to follow and repayment of principal). there is no such thing as magical free growth.
12:37pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15611 posts

As to fpot's suggestion that government spending grows GDP, he doesn't realise that before a government can spend money, they first had to take the money from a taxpayer who was also going to spend that very same money.


Your entire argument hinges on the hope that people who have vast amounts of cash earned in 1 country will spend most of that money in that country AND spend it on productive things. Real Estate speculation is not productive for example. Taking that money offshore to be spent in South Africa doesn't help us at all.

Taxes are needed to at least pull some of that money out of their pockets and make sure it is spent on the country, to make sure it isn't hoarded in speculative investments.
So s*** yeah, tax the rich more and close up rawts that allow these massive earners to pay next to no taxes. However, the liberal government isn't one to make these tough measures, they won't dare go after Murdoch.
01:09pm 13/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
939 posts
Ah budget fay has finally arrived. This really is a slash & burn budget if the vital "Abalone Aquaculture Health Accreditation Workshop" is really to be abolished and how dare the Abbott government deprive us of the crucial services of the "Advisory Panel on Marketing Infant Formula"

But i guess the good thing is that we will finally be in surplus right? Wayne Swan says we will be.


http://i.imgur.com/VcpXu5k.png
oh and hahaha, ahaha, hahahaha

What about roads? If the government spent nothing on roads, do you think our GDP would go up or down?

What about health? If the government spent nothing on health, do you think our GDP would go up or down?

What about education? If the government spent nothing on education, do you think our GDP would go up or down? I could go on for days here.

You're wronger than wrong and dumber than dumb.


I said GDP GROWTH Not GDP overall. Please learn to read carefully. Thanks. You are pretty f*****g dumb thinking that government spending grows GDP by anything significant.
01:56pm 13/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1914 posts
I couldn't find the time in my life to write a book.

What the f*** do these parrots do all day to have time for this s***? You also have to have your own d*** up your ass to write a book that has a picture of yourself on the front of it.

Lastly, who reads them? Who here has all of Bob Carrs books on a shelf?

Thought so. Get back to work you lousy overpaid pigs.
02:00pm 13/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2290 posts
I said GDP GROWTH Not GDP overall. Please learn to read carefully. Thanks. You are pretty f*****g dumb thinking that government spending grows GDP.


Do you understand fiscal policy?

In economics and political science, fiscal policy is the use of government revenue collection (taxation) and expenditure (spending) to influence the economy, or else it involves the government changing the levels of taxation and government spending in order to influence Aggregate Demand and the level of economic activity.[1] The two main instruments of fiscal policy are changes in the level and composition of taxation and government spending in various sectors. These changes can affect the following macroeconomic variables in an economy:

Aggregate demand and the level of economic activity;
The distribution of income;
The pattern of resource allocation within the government sector and relative to the private sector.
Fiscal policy refers to the use of the government budget to influence economic activity.


How does government spending not influence GDP growth? If it goes up OR down, it influences growth.
02:04pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1345 posts

Let's try and have some fun tonight.

http://www.pedestrian.tv/news/arts-and-culture/your-official-federal-budget-night-drinking-game/34ca40de-bc22-45e8-822b-016dc9d03244.htm

- Every time a Government agency is axed, pour one out for your fallen public service homies. There's going to be a lot of them, so maybe get something cheap to avoid spilling Grange.


I lolled.


02:37pm 13/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24241 posts
I said GDP GROWTH Not GDP overall.
lol, I didn't leave sufficient distance for how dumb you are.
02:57pm 13/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1429 posts
I personally would love to see pollie pay tied to minimum wage, at all levels

make a point worth the yearly salary of minimum wage (without penalty rates), then all the pollies wages are worked out on points


I think a more reasonable thing would be the top people get the "Average wage" of around 70k/year and the less important types get the "Mean wage" of around $50k/year.

Tie their wages into the average family and watch them undergo sweeping changes to make sure that the average person is actually looked after.
04:16pm 13/05/14 Permalink
shody
Brisbane, Queensland
69 posts
Couldn't lowering politician's wages open them up to bribery a bit more though?

I just get the feeling if Ministers were getting paid 70k/year they may be more inclined to supplement that income.
04:45pm 13/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24243 posts
They'd be more susceptible to pandering to certain people who'll set them up with cushy high paying jobs in the private sector once they retire from politics which is something that's definitely not happening atm.
04:51pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
605 posts
There's a few fundamental flaws with our current monetary economic system. No matter if its capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. They all follow the same rules of money and trade with slight adjustment rules like government/corporation intervention, skewing of supply/demand and so on.

Every nation in our world is in debt, their debt is that amount of money created PLUS interest and distributed through from private banks RBA to other private banks. So for us to pay back our debt (or any nation that runs fiat currency through a central bank) they need to pay the full amount in circulation plus the interest value from another nation's money supply.

Very useful video (although they are pushing gold and silver...which still has its flaws) but it explains how it works it simply:



This system is retarded and fraudulent, to make money with money through the power of interest and deliberate poverty not because the resources are scarce (because it is not due to our technological development) but due to the lack of access because people can't pay for it.
05:26pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37842 posts
I personally would love to see pollie pay tied to minimum wage, at all levels


woudlnt work, i hardly think most (liberal) politicians make most of their cash from their pay packets. most of it is through deals with their buddies (while in office)
05:35pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12227 posts
I'd recommend starting a new thread with all possible budget information, this one has grown rather long and circling around points.
06:27pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15613 posts
Anyone following the recent inquiry into the Solar system scheme deaths?

Isn't amusing the that the top people who were basically in charge of the project were

Not informed


OF the risks. Is it not their jobs to be informed. They are either lying their titties off, or are very much too incompetent to be in their previous positions. Probably both.
06:55pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12228 posts
Hmm, so HEX bracket is now $50,000ish for repayments to begin, $7 medicare co-payment, ABC and SBS getting their budget cut and ABC is losing its Australia Network TV channel. What exactly does that mean, ABC losing their channel? Just no funding from government?

Oh, also uni's will be able to set their own fees by 2017. I'm not sure what this can entail, but I presume by common sense they won't go up that high because then you won't get anyone learning.
08:14pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13528 posts
And Jim is making deliberately false comments. I have already said I am opposed to new taxes which is Liberal policy so how can you say I am blindly pro-liberal... Jim and Trog distributing misinformation..... sad.


I didn't make any deliberately false comments

1) I only made the one comment - I'm unable to see from the context whether you're referring to another comment I've made at another time, and have waited until now to collate and refer to them in plural form, or just want your claim to sound worse

2) You've demonstrated time and time again that you're pro liberal party. Recently stating that you're personally against a single action a party undertakes while continuing to support them doesn't mean that you're not blindly supporting them. When your actions (not just your words) over a reasonable period of time demonstrate otherwise, I'll happily update my perspective
08:16pm 13/05/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4991 posts
uni's setting fee's mean higher cost (no doubt further boosting the value of HEC's, for sale down the track)

$7 co-payment, what a joke, they preach like bulk billing is at every corner, and will I haven't been able to get into a bulking billing GP (when needed) for years, this just makes the cost of seeing a doc more (or more the point gives those that dont bulk bill a greater reason to increase prices)

ABC losing the Aust network channel is odd, that is the means of getting Australia's messages to the world, or soft diplomacy
08:32pm 13/05/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4992 posts
Couldn't lowering politician's wages open them up to bribery a bit more though?

I just get the feeling if Ministers were getting paid 70k/year they may be more inclined to supplement that income.



a backbencher currently gets about 200K a year now (plus perks etc) and they can earn outside incomes now (with some limits)

abbott is on 500k

overall the money might seem low compared to the job involvement (when compared with outside world job roles and income) but it is the extras that come with it, the ongoing payments afters, the super, the pensions, all ontop of the fact that after these job roles you often have better options for board roles, and networked your way to better jobs (able to earn ontop of pensions etc) and that is where it becomes an issue
08:35pm 13/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2471 posts
Wow. So they just wanna f*** the unemployed.

- For young people looking for work the Government is raising the age of eligibility for Newstart from 22 to 25. Previously once people turned 22 they would shift from the lower-paid Youth Allowance to Newstart, giving them an extra $96 per fortnight.
- People under 30 who are become unemployed will have to wait 6 months to be eligible for Newstart, and will only be able to claim it for 6 months before the benefit is cut for another six months. This six-month cycle of getting benefits cut and returned will continue until someone gets a job or turns 30.
- Job seekers under 30 will also have to do 25 hours per week on a work for the dole scheme, while receiving benefits.

So if I understand this, you become unemployed under 30, don't get new start for 6 months, then get it only for 6 months, then it gets removed for 6 months. How the f*** are you supposed to survive on that?

The co-payment for medicare is bulls*** too. It's all bulls***. The only people who are benifiting from this budget are the rich and mining companies.
08:35pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12229 posts
Oh wow I didn't even look at that stuff Carson. That is really f***ed up, as in "hey look at all the homeless" kind of stuff.
08:40pm 13/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2472 posts

Oh wow I didn't even look at that stuff Carson. That is really f***ed up, as in "hey look at all the homeless" kind of stuff.

How can anyone defend being this callus to the unfortunate? It's not as easy as just moving somewhere or finding any job. For some people it's super difficult and f*****g expensive to move to where jobs are. I was struggling to find any work for well over a year, and under this it looks like I'd be homeless for 6 months a year. Especially since I have medical conditions that mean I need to see a doctor reguarly, how could I even afford a visit and my medication?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-13/budget-winners-and-losers/5433178
has a good summary.

Seems like unless you are wealth or in mining you're up s*** creek. Why the f*** screw over the vulnerable but give more money and concessions to mining?
08:47pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8465 posts
I'm mixed about pay rates of politicians. Admittedly there are a lot of politicians that are really just seat-warmers - they have no actual practical skills useful for lawmaking, and those ones I can't see how $195k is justified.

However certainly, we need to pay good money to get the best people. The problem is, the system really doesn't ensure that happens in any way, shape or form. It's literally a popularity contest and alignment to a party most of the time. You could stick a nobel prize winning author of multiple PhDs in various fields with a proven track record for running successful businesses and doing all kinds of charity work for niche groups, but if that person lives in a safe opposition party electorate, and they'll still lose to some idiot based on party alignment alone.

As for the laws around newstart, and 25-30 year olds, these kinds of laws are always made by people who it doesn't affect. They think they know how things are, when these laws get created that will never affect them personally.
08:50pm 13/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19637 posts
Boy they just f***ed future university students right in the a****** with joe hockeys clenched fist

that is really sad.
08:53pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12230 posts
Well as Malthius mentioned today, the increase in uni fees and lower HEX bracket just comes across as "haha we got our degrees already screw you guys!"
08:54pm 13/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2473 posts
As for the laws around newstart, and 25-30 year olds, these kinds of laws are always made by people who it doesn't affect. They think they know how things are, when these laws get created that will never affect them personally.

It's insane. It'll just make it incredibly hard for people in rural areas or areas with lower job rates. They suggest they aren't trying hard enough or to move to where the jobs are. How the f*** can you move to where jobs are when you have less than $250 per week to spend.

But hey, as long as the rich stay rich, who gives a f*** about the poor?

Boy they just f***ed future university students right in the a****** with joe hockeys clenched fist

that is really sad.

Well the poor need to stay poor. Can't have them going to uni and trying to improve their lives. Looks like they want to adopt the American health care and university model. Which is the worst f*****g idea ever.

I really have no idea how anyone with any sort of empathy could support half these changes. It just makes it incredibly hard for everyone who isn't well off already.
08:54pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Ha
Brisbane, Queensland
337 posts
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09:00pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12231 posts
I just love all the world plays without saying tax. They've already broken their promises, why dance around it when even the Liberal supporters are getting angry?
09:02pm 13/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2474 posts
tony abbot is literally murdering australia and i'm going to impotently complain about it on the internet until labor gets in and f**** s*** up in a different way and then i'll complain again ad infinitum

I liked the Labor gov and think Gillard did a good job.
09:05pm 13/05/14 Permalink
hardware
Brisbane, Queensland
10980 posts
I don't like the $7 doctor tax
but if it means less old biddies going and clogging up the waiting rooms just because they've got nothing better to do then i'm okay with it
09:08pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15616 posts
The worst off people after this budget is Single Parents, they were already struggling hard..
09:09pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15617 posts
Clive is sitting back tonight, taking stock and planning his moves. His finger is on the pulse of what people want. I've been hammered by surveys and whatnot by Clive, not s*** ones too.

I'm hearing people mention Clive all around the shop, he'll pull a good number of votes next round I think. Providing he doesn't get ganked by Liberal and Labor.

Also f*** the politions, they can have the same retirement ages as everyone else, no access to their supers or pensions until they hit 70.


edit:

As for uni fees. Most of the big money comes from international students, they are worth 3x a domestic student. In some cases it is the international students that keep a school going. Expect increased fees, the uni heads talk, they'll work it out amongst themselves.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:21:42 13/May/14
09:18pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15618 posts
Also about the unemployment thing, if never get a job in the first place are they on the 6-months on 6-months off cycle?


The Government has however resisted calls to clamp down on the major tax minimisation schemes, such as negative gearing and superannuation concessions, which allow high income earners to offset large portions of their income.


In otherwords, they don't expect the high end of town to do any real lifitng, another Lie by the Liberal Party.
They really are about f*****g over the poor end of town, in order to give to the rich. It really is that, people voted for this. :/



edit: Actually no they didn't vote for this, they voted for what was said pre-election. So many broken promises.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 21:28:21 13/May/14
09:25pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15619 posts
And he begins:


This is a heartless and cruel budget that will cause many Australians undue pain & all based on a fairy tale about a debt crisis

- Clive Palmer
09:33pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15620 posts
Also, I look forward to the crime statistics. Lets see if tonight's budget causes an increase in crime over the next 5 years. Luckily we have lots of freely accessible data on such matters.

09:37pm 13/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6827 posts
Was Australia's favourite tax rort : Negatively Geared Property Investment changed to new builds only? Or has it been left to f*** the economy further?
09:41pm 13/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1430 posts
Well this is going to f*** over most of the people I know...

In before sucking c*** for wifi just to post on AG...
09:42pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15621 posts
Pretty sure negative gearing is still available in all its glory. F*****g heavy lifting by all my arse.

09:42pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15622 posts
I'm serious about the crime.

The poorest are hit. The young, fit, angry, emotion filled youth who are off payments for 6 months are going to take the money from someone.

Crime WILL go up from this, lots of house break ins, petty theft, probably street thefts, armed robbery. I notice there are absolutely no budget increases for police, maybe Tonez expects the military to police us...
09:46pm 13/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6828 posts
With no changes to Negative Gearing or Superannuation this budget is a farce. The LNP is clearly not interested in the long term health of the economy. It's more of an ideological budget.

However, I would still vote for the LNP over Labor.

Just glad I don't have kids.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:47:43 13/May/14
09:46pm 13/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
668 posts
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09:49pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15623 posts
Face it Brool, the budget is a crock of s*** and lies. I have seen alternate options for the budget around the traps. Perhaps you don't care to look hard.
09:51pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12232 posts
Its their way of pleasing people who voted Liberal Slaps, who expect the deficit to be "decreased" no matter what. As long as its being decreased, they see it as job done.

Finding it really funny that a chaplain program is getting $250 million in funding yet they are cutting three of the biggest science organisations in funding. How does this make sense? Who ticks these things off?
09:51pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3968 posts
plenty of alternative budgets out there. this targetting the vulnerable is typical of right wing loonies.
10:04pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12233 posts
Another good one, the video game initiative that saw NSW and Victoria offering start up funds for indie developers has now been cut. Oh but wait, Ballet gets a $1 million for residency.
10:14pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15624 posts
Hay, if you are 6 months on and 6 months off the dole. Wouldn't that pretty much exclude you from renting anyway. So you just got made unemployed and have 6 months of low low low low payments. You can't afford to stay where you are, the government tells you to move somewhere with better job prospects. BRILLIANT.

O but wait, no real estate is going to give a rental to someone with a capped 6 months income with a chance of getting job. So these guys CAN'T move, perhaps they can't even find a place to live.

Yup. Teh SMartZ ToneZ.
10:36pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15625 posts
It's like they don't think about the consequences of the policies they make. HERP DERP we cutz da welfare payments, dat will make them git da jobz. It seems they just stopped there, not caring any further.
10:39pm 13/05/14 Permalink
Jabroney
Queensland
1428 posts
Good budget

I got sick of labors ludicrous spending.
10:58pm 13/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1836 posts
One of the things brought in after 1975 was that budgetary changes to on going outlays can't be blocked but neither the Debt Levy or the fuel levy surcharge changes will get through the Senate as they are bills separate to the budget. The PPL probably won't get through the senate meaning the budget has gained 1.5% tax on 800k businesses. Bet the Local Nazi Party supporters didn't see that coming.

Big shame about the youth unemployed, looks like I'll have more recruits for the revolution.

------------

Oh and there is no more funding outlined for the Australia Network, indicating the service will be cut. Murdock doesn't get a guernsey either.
11:08pm 13/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21494 posts
uni's setting fee's mean higher cost (no doubt further boosting the value of HEC's, for sale down the track)
?

uni students are able to put 100% of the cost of their uni fees on the loan and don't pay a $ back until they earn at least $50,000 p.a. pretty good deal imo

Boy they just f***ed future university students right in the a****** with joe hockeys clenched fist


pls explain, given it is all put on credit until they have a well paying job. unis need more income to become world class

Well the poor need to stay poor. Can't have them going to uni and trying to improve their lives.


more nonsense. uni students have access to free education STILL. anyone who goes to university (except of course arts students) has an excellent prospect of attaining a high paying job.

$7 co-payment, what a joke, they preach like bulk billing is at every corner, and will I haven't been able to get into a bulking billing GP (when needed) for years, this just makes the cost of seeing a doc more (or more the point gives those that dont bulk bill a greater reason to increase prices)


if you pay $5 for medicines under PBS why not $7 for a GP visit? the system needs a price signal because free stuff just gets abused. $7 is buggar all. interestingly it can also be levied for non emergency visits to emergency room.

So if I understand this, you become unemployed under 30, don't get new start for 6 months, then get it only for 6 months, then it gets removed for 6 months. How the f*** are you supposed to survive on that?


Wrong. From Budget papers: From 1 January 2015, new jobseekers up to 30 years of age applying for Newstart or Youth Allowance (Other) (YA(O)) will participate in job search and employment services activities which are funded by the Government for six months before receiving the payment. Current recipients of Newstart and YA(O) up to 30 years of age will also be covered by the same requirements from 1 July 2015. Young people who do not have a full capacity to work (i.e. their capacity is less than 30 hours), are in education or raining, or have a significant disability will all be exempt from these requirements, as will those with parenting responsibilities.

Youth will still have access to the safety net, alarmism is not necessary.

Plenty of more cuts to be had. A $29b deficit is still not good enough.

Good to see 16,500 public servants on the way out. 70 Agencies to go. 9 detention centres to close saving $2.4b. When you have adults in charge progress gets made.

The criteria for the deficit levy has been raised from $80,000 to $180,000 so now it covers bugger all taxpayers. Why did they even bother with it.

Very glad they are getting rid of the Gold Pass for politicians.

A medical research Future Fund that cant be raided by Labor is also great news. Why is it only the Coalition that creates Future Funds?
11:10pm 13/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1318 posts
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11:27pm 13/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37721 posts
250m for the NSCP. That is criminal.
12:11am 14/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37722 posts
Please go donate to Ron Williams High Court Challenge to fight the NCSP. He just finished his second run in court last week (check out this amazing blog for the coverage).

Mr Williams' argument is that the government is simply not authorised to spend the money on the NCSP. So far all the evidence seems to be on his side and it is embarrassing that the government would allocate such a ridiculously vast sum of money in the budget to this s***** programme.
12:23am 14/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1319 posts
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12:31am 14/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37723 posts
My comment you are referring to is not about what I want, it's about what do the greens and labor stand for? Remember when they accused Tonez of being opposed to everything? Well here we are full circle.

I am personally pro less taxes and less government spending. You already know that and are being deliberately obtuse. And Jim is making deliberately false comments. I have already said I am opposed to new taxes which is Liberal policy so how can you say I am blindly pro-liberal... Jim and Trog distributing misinformation..... sad.
What misinformation am I distributing? I just asked a question.

Instead of answering a simple question you launch off into some tirade against the Greens and Labor (how unusual) and attacking me and Jim. Again I have to applaud your skill at using fallacious rhetoric to distract people from the real issues; you would make a great politician or religious leader. I don't feel like I was being obtuse because almost everywhere else you manage to twist the conversation so it is about all the things you love about the budget.

You are obviously and somewhat hilariously clearly just irritated because you are struggling to resolve your cognitive dissonance. It's OK to be irritated that they're adding new taxes man!! You can even say you're irritated publicly instead of just carefully toeing around the edge of the issue.

In any case, I was asking a genuine question - you're anti-new taxes, and thus object to this part of the Liberal budget. If you just honestly wrote those words it would be much less objectionable (and maybe cathartic). Just admit you're pissed off that they're doing it despite their promises that made you vote for them in the first place!
01:21am 14/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24244 posts
05:49am 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15627 posts

So if I understand this, you become unemployed under 30, don't get new start for 6 months, then get it only for 6 months, then it gets removed for 6 months. How the f*** are you supposed to survive on that?



Wrong. From Budget papers: From 1 January 2015, new jobseekers up to 30 years of age applying for Newstart or Youth Allowance (Other) (YA(O)) will participate in job search and employment services activities which are funded by the Government for six months before receiving the payment. Current recipients of Newstart and YA(O) up to 30 years of age will also be covered by the same requirements from 1 July 2015. Young people who do not have a full capacity to work (i.e. their capacity is less than 30 hours), are in education or raining, or have a significant disability will all be exempt from these requirements, as will those with parenting responsibilities.



So you're saying he is right then. Don't twist his words, a proportion that are unable to find work due to illness are covered, those unable to find work due to any other reason though, they are boned.

As I said Infi, these policies aren't thought out fully. Some of those people who face 6 months of no income, who failed to get a job will certainly find something to do that pays. Increased crime buddy, it's coming our way.
06:44am 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15628 posts
This is what people voted Liberal for


but I can assure your listeners that there will be no cuts to health, no cuts to education, no cuts to pensions


yeah... right. How can you trust anything Tonez or the Liberals say after that?
06:48am 14/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37844 posts
wtf? why would you get rid of clean energy?

3 — GET RID OF THOSE DAMN WINDMILLS
A few weeks ago the Treasurer said wind farms near Canberra were offensive on the eyes.
Well there won’t be many more ... The Australian Renewable Energy Agency is getting the axe. If only he could chop down those dastardly windmills on Lake George.
Savings: $1.3 billion from 2017-18


is our government insane!?
07:00am 14/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2475 posts
From Budget papers: From 1 January 2015, new jobseekers up to 30 years of age applying for Newstart or Youth Allowance (Other) (YA(O)) will participate in job search and employment services activities which are funded by the Government for six months before receiving the payment. Current recipients of Newstart and YA(O) up to 30 years of age will also be covered by the same requirements from 1 July 2015. Young people who do not have a full capacity to work (i.e. their capacity is less than 30 hours), are in education or raining, or have a significant disability will all be exempt from these requirements, as will those with parenting responsibilities.

So you still don't get assistance for 6 months?

I think Toll is right. We're going to see crime levels go up. How the f*** can they expect anyone to live without any form of income after becoming unemployed for 6 months.

if you pay $5 for medicines under PBS why not $7 for a GP visit? the system needs a price signal because free stuff just gets abused. $7 is buggar all. interestingly it can also be levied for non emergency visits to emergency room.

$7 might be bugger all for you, but when you get ~250 per week in assistance, it's a heap of money. And who the f*** abuses going to the doctor? Is it like the "illegal" asylum seekers who come via boat? They make up a tiny % of illegal immigration, so we better punish everyone?

Infi, how can you be so callus about helping people who are not well off? Not everyone is in a good situation, for whatever reason. That is/was what is great about Australia. We have safety nets for those who are not well off, and this budget s**** in the face of that. New Start/Youth Allowance is barely enough to live on, how can anyone think it's a good idea to make it harder to get. It'll just drive up crime and make more young people feel disinfranchised.
07:04am 14/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2476 posts
wtf? why would you get rid of clean energy?



is our government insane!?

I'd say, yes. Wind farms are way better than those f*****g mines. But hey, renewable energy and climate change aren't proven sciences! The verdict is still out, and Dame Geena says mining is gonna keep Australia rich forever.
07:06am 14/05/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4993 posts
climate change argument summed up very well I think

07:17am 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1379 posts
Hey Trog,

That case didn't really turn on the secular arguments.

It was more about whether, absent enabling legislation, did the executive have the power to spend. They were pretty clear that the religious stuff didn't cut it, as in not a good constitutional argument.

The original NSCP program was done just through a series of contracts without a parliamentary act authorizing the spending.

I'll go read the rest of his stuff, but basically the court said that there is no constitutional prohibition on chaplaincy services. The constitution merely prevents religious tests for commonwealth offices and the establishment of a state religion.
07:24am 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15629 posts
Infi.

You say people who are unemployed and can't get a job in 6 months are lazy and useless and should be kicked off welfare, you support the notion of cycling their pay in an attempt to make them find work.

Here is the real situation, data taken from the Bureau of Statistics.

Number of Unemployed: 724,000 As of May 2014.

Number of Job Vacancies in both Private and Pubic: 140,000 as of Feb 2014.


How exactly do you force 584,000 people to get a job when their simply aren't any for them? Moving them around the country isn't going to do anything. Sure a portion of those people don't collect benefits the exact number varying.

The majority of these people getting kicked off the dole are getting kicked off not because they can't find work, but because there is no work for them to find. The policy is broken and won't work as intended, unless it is intended to shave off a bit of money from the budget at the cost of peoples livelihoods and most likely long term detrimental effects.


07:57am 14/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19638 posts
you don't have to pay people welfare if they are homeless living on the street, it's the perfect plan
08:01am 14/05/14 Permalink
groganus
Brisbane, Queensland
2860 posts
IMO the worst and most shameful part to this budget is the $200 given to couples (of any nature, married, defacto, same sex) to go to relationship counseling. (an election promise).

I'd rather take care of the sick with my taxes.
08:01am 14/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2477 posts
Infi.

You say people who are unemployed and can't get a job in 6 months are lazy and useless and should be kicked off welfare, you support the notion of cycling their pay in an attempt to make them find work.

Here is the real situation, data taken from the Bureau of Statistics.

Number of Unemployed: 724,000 As of May 2014.

Number of Job Vacancies in both Private and Pubic: 140,000 as of Feb 2014.


How exactly do you force 584,000 people to get a job when their simply aren't any for them? Moving them around the country isn't going to do anything. Sure a portion of those people don't collect benefits the exact number varying.

The majority of these people getting kicked off the dole are getting kicked off not because they can't find work, but because there is no work for them to find. The policy is broken and won't work as intended, unless it is intended to shave off a bit of money from the budget at the cost of peoples livelihoods and most likely long term detrimental effects.



That's actually really scary. As someone who came from rural Vic. I spend well over a year looking for work and there just wasn't any at all, and I wasn't picky about what I did. I couldn't afford to move anywhere else as, at the time, I was on youth allowance which labelled me as a dependant so I was getting around 370~ a fortnight. I'm convinced that LNP doesn't care about anything but themselves. They have no foresight.

Hopefully this gets blocked at the Senate. It's unrealistic and is going to have a lot of very negative ramifications. Though I'm sure LNP will pass the blame off.
08:08am 14/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12234 posts
Infi, I don't think you read the same budget as me. Uni fees are being uncapped meaning there is a potential that these institutes could charge whatever they wanted, there is now a lower HEX tax threshold, the cap to contributions is being removed meaning when you go over that 50K bracket you may be forced to pay it all back and an interest rate is now being charged on HEX fees which is far higher.

Yes, uni's get most of their money from overseas so surely they'll just raise overseas fees right? Who knows, but they can now tempt that idea because the government will allow it, which has the potential to turn us into America with education being a price that no one can pay without doing four jobs. How is that nurturing your future? How does the government expect jobs to be created when no one wants to do it because you'll be homeless either way?

I've been on Centrelink before while studying and it is hard. It isn't an easy thing to do, and to have those payments helped me actually live and get through the tough times. I was able to find a job on the side that gave me some extra money to push further, but these changes will directly affect students, and has the potential to tip everything on its head. I wholeheartedly understand that the system needs to be looked at to solve the issue of those using it when they don't need it, but I have a feeling the legitimacy of the program far outweighs those abusing it.

Also a $29b deficit after all these cuts shouldn't be considered "bad," not when you look at other countries around the world. Where is this budget emergency and why is it only Australia?
08:15am 14/05/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19639 posts
apart from usual LNP looking after certain parts of the business community, i think this budget just shows the LNP's disconnection from real life
08:16am 14/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37724 posts
I'll go read the rest of his stuff, but basically the court said that there is no constitutional prohibition on chaplaincy services
Yeh, but it's back in the courts right now (arguments just finished on Friday last week I think). So there is a whole new thing going on. I agree that it is not about the secular-ness.
08:32am 14/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6829 posts
Few groups will be spared from this Budget

Except:

- Mining companies
- Big polluters
- Wealthy self-funded retirees
- High income earners approaching retirement
- Property investors
- Sharemarket investors
- The military
- High income earners who salary package



Pissweak fail budget.

But I doubt Labor would have had the guts to make any hard calls either. So we have no one to vote for.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 08:35:09 14/May/14
08:33am 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1380 posts
Yeah Having a look at his blog they are arguing about spending power again. Still a worth while challenge, and I agree that the money spent on school chaplains is obscene in the context of budget emergency. Even more so in the added context of no (well limited) parliamentary scrutiny.
08:49am 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21495 posts

As I read it a person who is unemployed will still be able to access benefits on Work for the Dole. So that's pretty much the same as its always been.

Re Uni Eorl re the budget papers! http://www.budget.gov.au/2014-15/content/glossy/education/download/Budget_Glossy_education_web.pdf

* 1 July 2016 repayment threshold $50,638
* Student debt indexed at government bond rate far below commercial rates
* removing loan fees
* new $20,000 loans for apprentices and trades
* I cant see any discussion about changing the rate the HELP balance is recovered.

How is it a bad deal to get a uni degree NO MONEY DOWN and only pay it back when you're earning $50k.... i don't see the inequity in that. the hairdressers and cleaners earning $35k a year would be very envious of that arrangement.

Just admit you're pissed off that they're doing it despite their promises that made you vote for them in the first place!


I am pissed off. I admit that. And you know that. You think you're trying to wedge me on Liberal party policy when I plainly disagree on it. Admittedly the deficit levy is a much watered down final version compared to the initial $80k threshold.


09:12am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15099 posts
Very disappointed that chronic illness isn't excluded from the new charges, and to note that the $7 also applies to every blood test etc as well. That s*** is going to get exxy in hog house.

No changes to health my arse, this is literally an extra tax on being sick as without an exclusion schedule of chronic illness there are a large number of people for whom its an unavoidable cost.

Anyone know if the changes to health need to get through the Upper House as an act of Parliament? There's obviously no mandate for it, lol.

One term tone please.
09:37am 14/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3969 posts
worst government we've ever had.

http://i.imgur.com/t9kRWff.jpg

Also, basic bachelor degree is set to raise from 40k to 100k.
09:45am 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15630 posts
There is chance he wont even be 1 term, lets see how things pan out.
09:54am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15100 posts
PUP and Greens indicated they will oppose it so I assume an act of parliament is required for the GP tax and they'll have a hard time of it.

If it makes it through an election I guess I'll just have to accept that aussies are OK with that and use the hospital more if it becomes a problem :p
10:07am 14/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2478 posts
PUP and Greens indicated they will oppose it so I assume an act of parliament is required for the GP tax and they'll have a hard time of it.

I hope so. I hope Labor step up and it just gets blocked.

It's complete garbage. Anyone who supports this budget has got to be disconnected from reality and have no sympathy for those who are struggling. These numbers don't lie
Number of Unemployed: 724,000 As of May 2014.
Number of Job Vacancies in both Private and Pubic: 140,000 as of Feb 2014.

How can you find a job when it doesn't exist?
10:13am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15102 posts
A trip to the doctor that results in a blood test and a prescription will burn a $56.70 hole in the pocket of a general patient from next year

Jesus f*****g christ
10:14am 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15631 posts
If a Loss of Supply is set up in the house of reps, the Prime Minister can be kicked out I believe. It happen in 1975 where the Governor General kicked out the prime minster.

This is a budget that will test the nation. It isn't over yet.
10:14am 14/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37727 posts
I am pissed off. I admit that. And you know that. You think you're trying to wedge me on Liberal party policy when I plainly disagree on it.
Not trying to wedge you, but when 99.99% of your post content is validation/justification for their other policies it's hard to tell where the line will get drawn. All that said, I don't mind tax hikes as long as I agree where the money is going. In this case I'm a little torn cuz there's a bunch of idiot s*** (NSCP, gutting CA) and a bunch of great s*** (medical research).
10:20am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15103 posts
Yeh not sure supply will be blocked ... those bills are separate to the individual budget measures aren't they? We don't REALLY want a situation where the Senate is overly willing to use the block supply response, and as pissed as I am I don't think this budget warrants it.

The Government has a double dissolution trigger if they can't ram the new bills through the Senate, that should be sufficient. It then becomes a question of how much the Opposition parties will block these measures (seemingly and hopefully a lot) and whether the Government wants to test the public's opinion on them in an early election. The Greens will pass the fuel excise and likely both Greens and ALP will pass the debt levy, the paid maternity leave maybe from the Greens; maybe not from ALP, but both likely to oppose changes to health and education.

IMO that's pretty solid democracy, no need to create a constitutional crisis over it.
10:21am 14/05/14 Permalink
Dan
Special Text
Brisbane, Queensland
15287 posts
If a Loss of Supply is set up in the house of reps, the Prime Minister can be kicked out I believe. It happen in 1975 where the Governor General kicked out the prime minster.
I kind of feel like the independents (in the new senate) will be too self-serving to want to force a double dissolution. It might all hinge on the whim of Clive Palmer, and whether his party thinks they would increase their seats in a new election or not. I don't see him risking that though.
10:34am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15104 posts

New senate:

http://i.imgur.com/nbLHGnb.png
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Senators/Senate_composition

There are 76 seats in total, a simple majority is required for approval of bills, 39 votes I think?

I doubt very much that the ALP will block supply over the budget, so an election trigger will only happen if the Government pushes an article that they can't get through. At the moment polls indicate that the result woudl be uncertain for the Government, so unless this changes they are unlikely to push for a DD imo, and will instead try to negotiate the more unpopular measures into law.

The Greens will add 10 votes to anything that furthers their agenda (like the fuel excise). They have a history of working with either party to enact small changes and force small concessions over time to build momentum for their agenda. They don't have the numbers to block supply without the ALP even with all the other smaller parties and indies, but with the ALP they are enough to block anything the two parties decide to (43 votes).

The minors don't play BIG role in the new Senate, as most questions will be answered by the alignment of Coalition, ALP and Green. This hasn't changed a lot from previously, PUP and a few others picked up seats but if the loose alignment of the ALP and Greens opposes a bill it won't become law (and previously this enabled the ALP to enact lots of legislation).


PUP will hold the balance of power, I can't count. Supply still won't be blocked without the ALP and they don't want to go there. There's enough votes in the random spray of indies and minor parties for the ALP and Greens to block legislation with their help and without PUP if four of them man up. For issues that the Greens and the Coalition agree on like fuel excise there's enough votes to pass.

PUP will be unhelpful. Their agenda is to get themselves into papers as an agitating force against the major parties with an independent vision.
The independents will consider their position based on what gets them re-elected.
Brand new LDP, FF and Motoring senators are an unknown but can be relied on to do anything to help them keep their seat as long as possible (like acquiescing on anything thta could be a DD trigger).
Who knows for Xenophon ...
DLP will follow their party agenda on each issue independently I'd expect?



I don't mind tax hikes as long as I agree where the money is going. In this case I'm a little torn cuz there's a bunch of idiot s*** (NSCP, gutting CA) and a bunch of great s*** (medical research).

Yeh but where's the money for the research coming from? People who are sick (literally; the fund is being paid for by the Medicare changes). Taxing the sick to pay for medical research is pants-on-head stuff.
10:48am 14/05/14 Permalink
Dan
Special Text
Brisbane, Queensland
15288 posts
The Greens will add 10 votes to anything that furthers their agenda (like the fuel excise). They have a history of working with either party to enact small changes and force small concessions over time to build momentum for their agenda. They don't have the numbers to block supply without the ALP even with all the other smaller parties and indies, but with the ALP they are enough to block anything the two parties decide to (43 votes).
Labor+Greens is only 35 votes. Palmer United essentially has the balance of power, sadly.
10:54am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15105 posts
Labor+Greens is only 35 votes. Palmer United essentially has the balance of power, sadly.

Oh s*** you're right, I cant math this morning.

PUP will oppose the Government on almost everything, they need to get as much impact out of their senate numbers as possible.
10:55am 14/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37845 posts
i (and my family) am left relatively unscathed by this prick of a budget. i still hate it and think its a complete c*** act and totally unnecessary.

luckily most of australia does as well, so hopefully these clowns are gone next election.
11:05am 14/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1346 posts

Sadly Clive has the best responses to the Budget so far from the party leaders.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-14/clive-palmer-to-definitely-oppose-gp-co-payment/5451356

His anti-politics will resonate with the electorate. I reckon we will see more of his party by next election.


11:09am 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1381 posts
I kind of feel like the independents (in the new senate) will be too self-serving to want to force a double dissolution


I don't think that is really very fair. If you want to force a double dissolution by denying supply there are very serious consequences to that.

You need to remember that it would be stopping the allocation funds completely to government agencies, on the grounds that you disagree with some of the finer points of the allocation.

Centrelink wouldn't have money to pay anybody, federal government agencies wouldn't be able to pay their employees.

Blocking supply isn't like the three denial route. Arguably Fraser was a giant f*****g a******* for doing it.
11:15am 14/05/14 Permalink
Dan
Special Text
Brisbane, Queensland
15289 posts
True. I suppose the most significant point is that Bill Shorten is way too unpopular, and the ideological opposition to any of these measures is too weak to risk Labor participation in blocking supply, and the bad s*** that comes along with that.
11:27am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15106 posts
They don't need to block supply to block the specific measures. Supply block won't happen, its too big a call and its very bad for Australia.

Much more reasonable to form broad opposition to specific policies via the normal democratic process in the Senate. PUP is keen to pick a fight. The Government then needs to decide whether sticking it to the unemployed, students and the ill is worth a DD if they can't get their c***ish policies through. I'd personally expect that they won't call a DD though unless their 2PP improves measurably; instead they'll axe anything that doesn't require an act of Parliament or they can negotiate through the Senate, carry the deficit to the next election blaming the ALP for everything.

The latest newspoll had a very tight 2PP. Shoreton isn't personally popular at the moment (people are more indifferent to him I would say) ... but surely the fact that TONY F*****G ABBOTT is PM should demonstrate how much that seems to matter these days. In my opinion this is a good thing and a welcome shift, policy debate should be driving electorate decisions not leadership popularity.
11:38am 14/05/14 Permalink
konstie
Melbourne, Victoria
2292 posts
luckily most of australia does as well, so hopefully these clowns are gone next election.


Everyone will forget about it by August.
11:54am 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1382 posts
I'm happy to be corrected but forcing the budget to be amended is blocking supply.

Blocking supply is just; not approving an appropriation which is what the budget is
11:55am 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15107 posts
I'm happy to be corrected but forcing the budget to be amended is blocking supply.

In Australia supply is defined as the day-to-day operation of Government bills I think, ie the ability for it to pay its bills for staff, power, rent etc. Other parliaments sometimes define it as the whole budget? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_supply

IIRC these are carefully separate from things like the new measures in the budget. Pretty sure this is the case; in the interview above Palmer appears to be talking about supply blocking as a separate action to the blocking of things like the new Medicare taxes.

Previously the Government has had to negotiate and wrangle to get budget measures through without it being a constitutional crisis around supply (like the GST implementation, the MRRT etc etc). Happy to be wrong but nobody in the media is taking about difficulty in passing the new legislation being a block of supply?
12:14pm 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1383 posts
The GST wasn't implemented via a budget it was a separate piece of legislation.

The budget is an appropriation and under s 53 the constitution the senate can't amend supply bills, only the house can. Therefore to push changes through it has to deny supply.
here is the convention:
Appropriation Bill (No. 1) proposes appropriations for activities that are considered to be the ordinary annual services of the Government and hence the Bill cannot be amended by the Senate under section 53 of the Constitution. The Bill sets out amounts according to whether they are departmental, administered, or for payment to CAC Act bodies.
source

BUDGET SPEECH 2014‑15
Delivered on 13 MAY 2014 on the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2014‑15
source

I can't really see how you would pick apart the budget without denying supply.
12:44pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15108 posts
Don't think you've got the right end of the stick on this one, Petey. Supply is just the right to get their mits on tax revenue.

The individual measures within the budget that require legislative approval are passed by the Lower House and then presented for review to the Senate. The Australian Government doesn't grind to a halt over it, lots of legislation doesn't make it through the Upper House.

There's bazillions of budget articles out there now talking about opposition and the likely issues with Senate passage - if you have a single source saying that opposition to the specific budget measures will deny supply please forward it...
12:52pm 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1384 posts
Sorry I'm misreading you.

denying the bill which was introduced last night would create a constitutional crisis.

however, things like the co-payment etc aren't dealt with in that legislation, they will be done in other bills.

It's all linked I suppose, because they are going to appropriate on the assumption they can get their savings through (mostly).

*edit* here is an example. If you look at the schedule to the bill, the climate change authority is getting no money this coming year. They aren't legislating to remove the body with this but they are taking away all its money. linky
01:28pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1347 posts
Bill Shorten's budget response.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnjoM97IMAEPaLx.jpg
01:39pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15109 posts
Sorry I'm misreading you.

denying the bill which was introduced last night would create a constitutional crisis.

however, things like the co-payment etc aren't dealt with in that legislation, they will be done in other bills.

No idea how we missed each other by that wide a mark then. But anyway yes, the Senate can argue about the specific measures (co-payments, lots of the new s***) without forcing a crisis over supply.
01:48pm 14/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
1431 posts
I would LOVE to say that this budget won't affect me, but that would be lying.

I am currently studying. So when I cease, if I don't have a job lined up and willing to take me on after the course is finished, I'm basically homeless for 6 months.

Given that I have an on-going illness that restricts hours and jobs I can do, I guess it's time to start learning how to hunt pigeon...
01:52pm 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1385 posts
I always think of the Budget as appropriation bill no. 1. In reality I suppose its more a suite of legislation.
01:57pm 14/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
26 posts
Holy s*** balls HECS will now acquire interest.

Someone please explain to me something. When a new budget is released does it have to pass senate or equivalent? What I'm asking is does the deregulation of uni fees and the like need to pass the senate first?

I'm starting to think the coalition is trying to use the low balling technique to pass the deregulation of uni fees.
01:58pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15110 posts
Ohh I see a master plan forming, read this today advocating GP visits:
For the first time ever in Australia cancer deaths have outnumbered cardiovascular (strokes and heart attacks) deaths (Tony Eastley ABC News Feb4 2014). This is in no small measure because of primary prevention in general practice - that is getting blood pressure, cholesterol, sugar and smoking under control.

All this f*****g health care, people are no longer dying of strokes, heart attacks and diabetes in their 60s an instead having expensive late life cancers... how2fix?
  • Reduce contact hours with doctors.

  • Lower life expectancy

  • Increase retirement age


O.o
01:59pm 14/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
941 posts
Face it Brool, the budget is a crock of s*** and lies. I have seen alternate options for the budget around the traps. Perhaps you don't care to look hard.


You don't seem to be reading my posts, i'v already faced it. The fuel excise and "debt levy" are real stinkers. I am the person who posted an alternative option for the budget(See the LDP's alternative budget)

The fact is that the Liberal party is the only major party who has offered up a solution to fix the problem and it does just that. It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but no one else is offering up any alternatives. Labor isn't. If Labor actually offered up a solution to fix the problem and it was actually better than the Coalitions with no tax rises etc, i would back it.

Unfortunately Labor are too busy being Budget Change Deniers so we are stuck with the Liberals solution.

So lets go through the list of solutions.

Coalition -
Budget Solution with tax rises and cuts to welfare/social program
Labor - Nothing. Budget Change Denier.
Greens - Nothing. Budget Change Denier.
PUP - Nothing. Budget Change Denier.
LDP - Alternative budget, budget back to surplus within 1 year, no new taxes or tax rises.
Independents - Mix of Nothing. Budget Change Denier. and support of Coalitions Budget Solution.
02:59pm 14/05/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1386 posts
does your use of "Budget Change Denier" imply you feel climate change is real and should be addressed?
03:03pm 14/05/14 Permalink
FryaDuck
Other International
495 posts

I always think of the Budget as appropriation bill no. 1. In reality I suppose its more a suite of legislation.


Both the debt levy and the increase in the fuel surcharge are separate new funding which are separate bills attached to the budget, they will need to be passed.

If you think the infrastructure monies was any good perhaps you might spend a few minutes viewing this video;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/may/14/albo-explains-the-budget-video
03:58pm 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21496 posts

Ytime: Uni HELP debts have always been indexed with CPI. The new proposal is the government bond rate which is about 1% higher.

http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/interest-and-indexation/pages/interest-and-indexation


04:25pm 14/05/14 Permalink
ytime
Darwin, Northern Territory
27 posts

Ytime: Uni HELP debts have always been indexed with CPI. The new proposal is the government bond rate which is about 1% higher.

http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/interest-and-indexation/pages/interest-and-indexation



This I knew. But I misread, it's a max of 6% not 6%. The current 10year bond rate is 3.76%. CPI is currently 2.0% So it's actually 1.76%. TBH it's not all that much but the government is loaning money out to a corporation, it's loaning money out to it's own people.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/HELP-indexation-rates/
https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/key-superannuation-rates-and-thresholds/?page=34
04:53pm 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21497 posts
Considering uni graduates have an extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation how much should the taxpayer bear? I know uni students expect everything for free but that is actually being paid for by blue collar workers who will only ever dream of $50k plus salaries.
04:58pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Vash
3971 posts

extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation


ha.haha.hahahaha
05:21pm 14/05/14 Permalink
taggs
6312 posts
This I knew. But I misread, it's a max of 6% not 6%. The current 10year bond rate is 3.76%. CPI is currently 2.0% So it's actually 1.76%. TBH it's not all that much but the government is loaning money out to a corporation, it's loaning money out to it's own people.


The difference is probably smaller than 1.76%, your data is for 2013 so is not reflective of what may happen under this proposal.

The spot rate for a 10-year Australian Government Bond is 3.67% as at 13 May (sourced from S&P paywalled data service).

The latest CPI figure is 2.9% as at 31 March (source).

So the difference is 0.77% on the latest data available.
05:35pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Net
AusGamers Dev
Brisbane, Queensland
46 posts
infi:
Considering uni graduates have an extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation


[Citation needed]
06:06pm 14/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24251 posts
infi will never bother posting one, so here's a basic google search that seems to indicate he's full of s***.
06:09pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15634 posts
Apparently Tonez thinks he can bully the independents and minor parties into doing his bidding, threating them with potentially losing their seats in the case of a DD.

I'm up for the gamble, bring on the DD. But if Liberal win again we have to all suck it up.
06:46pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Dan
Special Text
Brisbane, Queensland
15291 posts

The spot rate for a 10-year Australian Government Bond is 3.67% as at 13 May (sourced from S&P paywalled data service).
It's been consistently higher for most of recent history though.

https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/key-superannuation-rates-and-thresholds/?page=34
06:47pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15635 posts
Of course grads are finding it hard to find work. Anyone but the high experience/skilled.

Remember, 720,000 odd unemployed, 140,000 odd vacancies. Government is wanting to add another 20,000 or so on to that unemployment list, experienced people.

Sucks to be young and looking for work, it's an uphill slug. I hope you flip em a $ when they beg on the street in the future infi.
06:49pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15637 posts
Also, seems Ruddles has something to hide in the courts. He was called up for the home insulation scheme inquiry today and wanted his 31 page statement redacted, basically it ended up being used in court but not to be published. Suss much.
06:53pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37848 posts
news reported it the other way tolls bro. ruddles wanted the document used, law talking guy said that they had to respect privacy of cabinet.
07:00pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15638 posts
Oh, well what I read was Ruddles fronted up and lawyers argued for redaction. I'm guessing Rudd was in on it. He didn't say otherwise.
07:07pm 14/05/14 Permalink
reso
I can't read
Brisbane, Queensland
5451 posts
You must have misread, Toll? From ABC:

Lawyers for the Commonwealth asked that parts of Mr Rudd's statement be redacted due to matters of parliamentary privilege.

But counsel for the former Labor leader, Bret Walker SC, said this would be a "devastating truncation of the truth".

"We don't want to dance (around the matter). We want to face it front on and march straight ahead," Mr Walker said.
07:20pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37850 posts
yer, kruddle wants the truth out there, its the slimy lawyers blocking it:

The Australian Government Solicitor took a black marker to Mr Rudd's statement on behalf of the Commonwealth government, redacting more than half of the 31-page document for cabinet secrecy reasons.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/kevin-rudd-gagged-by-secrecy-provisions-lawyer-20140514-zrcu0.html#ixzz31gEZ6VtV
07:22pm 14/05/14 Permalink
taggs
6313 posts

That is a fair point, Dan. My post shouldn't be interpreted as either in support of or against the policy change, fyi.

I'd quickly point out that prior to 2001/2 (iirc) Australia didn't have a AAA credit rating which would have pushed the rate higher holding all else constant. I'd also suggest that there isn't a lot of strong evidence that the interest rates on sovereign debt are a mean reverting variable (in my experience/education - haven't kept up with the literature though), particularly over the short-medium term, so past rates aren't necessarily a good indicator of future rates.

But your point is correct, they are low by historical standards. It wasn't very long ago that CPI was at a historical low too. It's all swings and roundabouts really but there is no denying that on the average you will be paying a higher interest rate under the cost of debt metric than under the CPI metric.

In the scheme of things, whether the rate is CPI or government's cost of debt it's still going to be the best loan you will ever take out in your lifetime. The internal rate of return on a tertiary education is far higher than either the government's cost of debt or CPI will ever be. Attached is a paper that estimates the IRR to a bachelors degree netting the graduate on average between 8% at the low end (humanities, male) to 58% at the high end (economics, male). I'm sure there are a bunch of different estimates out there (in uni I remember reading one that put it at around 14% on average across fields and genders) but it gives an idea of the value a degree provides.

http://www.industry.gov.au/highereducation/Policy/BaseFundingReview/Documents/PrivatebenefitsofHEreport.pdf



Anyway, I've lingered in this thread far too long :)
07:23pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15639 posts
o your right, i thought it was the other way around. In that case, nothing to see here.
07:30pm 14/05/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
1927 posts
You're looking pretty good for 1,000 Hoggy. I'll get the bubbly.
07:37pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37851 posts
first time hoggy? you'll get used to it after a while.
07:44pm 14/05/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10513 posts
You're looking pretty good for 1,000 Hoggy. I'll get the bubbly.



the 'media dept' at work call Hoggy 'Walter White'


08:03pm 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21498 posts
Of course grads are finding it hard to find work. Anyone but the high experience/skilled.

Remember, 720,000 odd unemployed, 140,000 odd vacancies. Government is wanting to add another 20,000 or so on to that unemployment list, experienced people.

Sucks to be young and looking for work, it's an uphill slug. I hope you flip em a $ when they beg on the street in the future infi.


Yes employment will end as we know it.

/dramatic hampster
08:07pm 14/05/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6830 posts
http://aciai.me/i/P0MB8.jpg

Don't pin your hopes on Clive.
08:27pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Python
Sydney, New South Wales
2110 posts
yay, negative gearing stayed. Time for more properties!
08:30pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12246 posts
Considering uni graduates have an extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation how much should the taxpayer bear? I know uni students expect everything for free but that is actually being paid for by blue collar workers who will only ever dream of $50k plus salaries.

I will never be able to take you seriously again. Also its kind of funny that you say uni students want everything for free when a lot of the older parliament players like Abbott got their degree for free. But hey, semantics right?
08:46pm 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21499 posts
No one should get a uni degree for free because they cost a f***ton. And if students aren't going to uni for their career then why are they so going? For enlightenment? Hahaha ok....
08:54pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10272 posts
Get uni degree .... go overseas ... win!

infi you should stop posting in political threads, you are so 1 eyed that you actually make people look at alternatives.

Got any new grants yet?
09:02pm 14/05/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2481 posts
No one should get a uni degree for free because they cost a f***ton. And if students aren't going to uni for their career then why are they so going? For enlightenment? Hahaha ok....

I can't tell if you are the greatest troll ever or so out of touch anymore.

Either way I really don't think you have much sympathy or empathy for anyone who isn't well off. It seems like if people are unemployed or rely on the government social services they are clearly not trying hard enough at life.
09:21pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15640 posts
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1.0-9/10313181_10152434848629851_8445833450708969234_n.jpg

I've loled at all the pictures rolling through, the Bill one was loltastic.
09:21pm 14/05/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21500 posts
The most recent Australian Graduate Survey (Graduate Careers Australia, 2011) surveyed more than 168,000 graduates who completed their degree in 2010. Respondents were asked about their employment activities four months after course completion, including whether or not they had attained full-time work and, if so, what their starting salary was.

On average, 76.6 per cent of 2010 bachelor degree graduates found full-time work within four months. Among the highest-ranking fields were mining engineering with 98.2 per cent, medicine at 98.0 per cent, pharmacy at 97.3 per cent and surveying at 92.9 per cent. Graduates in the fields of humanities and languages fared slightly worse, with rates of 64.7 per cent and 65.0 per cent respectively.
The average graduate starting salary in 2011 was $50,000 — a slight increase from $49,000 in 2010. Some of the highest paid fields include dentistry at $80,000, optometry at $70,000 and earth sciences at $65,000. Lower-paid fields include agricultural science at $45,600 and art and design at $40,000.
http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/

Eorl does that mean I can't take you seriously ever again for not know that uni results in very high rates of high paying employment? I mean this is basic stuff that I would expect recent uni grads to know.

if you are going to study arts or basket weaving do not expect the tax payer to fund your living costs during the bohemian revolution. Taxpayers have rights too you know. It's not all about poor uni students.
09:25pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12247 posts
I'm not saying anything about getting a job after, and I absolutely agree that degree like arts or the more obscure areas will always be difficult to find jobs in. I'm more arguing about uni life and actually surviving while at uni, plus the potential to have uni fees skyrocket like America.

Of course, this is all at the time hypothetical because we just don't know what is going to happen, but I hope education is still affordable in the future for my children, and that they don't have to take four jobs to pay for their loan and living costs.
10:08pm 14/05/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2806 posts
I hate to inform you guys of this but our government debt is never going to go away. Ever.

And that's not a bad thing.
11:30pm 14/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37729 posts
Considering uni graduates have an extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation how much should the taxpayer bear? I know uni students expect everything for free but that is actually being paid for by blue collar workers who will only ever dream of $50k plus salaries.
But then those uni students who get while collar jobs and much bigger salaries end up paying way, way more tax, which the blue collar workers get the benefit of through the other services that the government provides. You're trying to make it sound like a zero-sum game, but it's not.
No one should get a uni degree for free because they cost a f***ton.
I agree, but (aside from Medicare) HECS is probably the thing Australia has that I'm the most proud of
12:16am 15/05/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
942 posts
I think a lot of uni students study certain things for "just cuz" and its a waste of money and time. For example, when i was at uni there was 500 students alone studying commerce. Last time i checked Commerce wasn't an area screaming for workers. A lot of people just go to uni to study things for the hell of it.

I think government funding for uni should be based on skills/expertise that are in demand. Studying useless crap off the back of the tax payer with no prospect of getting a jobto pay it back shouldn't be allowed.


I hate to inform you guys of this but our government debt is never going to go away. Ever.

And that's not a bad thing.


I hate to inform you that you are wrong because this hard and tough budget shows that our deficit is going to be fixed and then hopefully the debt will be paid back.
12:41am 15/05/14 Permalink
Net
AusGamers Dev
Brisbane, Queensland
47 posts
infi:
Considering uni graduates have an extremely high chance of securing a well paying job upon graduation how much should the taxpayer bear? I know uni students expect everything for free but that is actually being paid for by blue collar workers who will only ever dream of $50k plus salaries.


What would you regard as extremely high chance in terms of percentages? As in, of those who are looking for a job over the course of 4 months after graduating.

infi:
No one should get a uni degree for free because they cost a f***ton. And if students aren't going to uni for their career then why are they so going? For enlightenment? Hahaha ok....


What part of the HECS/HELP loans are free? Once you earn above a certain threshold, you are forced to pay them back.

infi:
http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/

Eorl does that mean I can't take you seriously ever again for not know that uni results in very high rates of high paying employment?


This is not what I would regard as "extremely high chance" or even "very high rates" in regards to levels of university graduate employment. The graph below shows graduate unemployment levels (for 2013) that are well below the unemployment rate at the time.

http://i.imgur.com/49fkMtF.jpg
12:56am 15/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37730 posts
Last time i checked Commerce wasn't an area screaming for workers. A lot of people just go to uni to study things for the hell of it.
You are so poorly informed I don't even know where to begin
01:17am 15/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37853 posts
05:49am 15/05/14 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4674 posts
Two things that are at the core of each and every lib fan 1) They care only for themselves 2) Victim blaming
07:32am 15/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24253 posts
A shorter way of saying that is F*** You Got Mine.
07:48am 15/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37732 posts
Making polarising statements about [political party that you don't like] just opens the door for equally one-sided statements about [political party you do like]. Trying to pretend politics is black or white is why America has this f***ed two party system. There are shades of gray and it's important to remember that. Vote for the smaller parties who represent your particular views if you want to see changes that are more applicable to you personally and remember that the big parties are trying to appeal to everyone - so you're going to lose out no matter what with some of their decisions.
07:52am 15/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37854 posts
yer, in theory trog.

im sure loads of people didnt like labor or liberal and voted for indepedents or greens.

they still got tony.
08:11am 15/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1348 posts
You would think having a well educated population would be a good thing for a country?
08:29am 15/05/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
15111 posts
I agree, but (aside from Medicare) HECS is probably the thing Australia has that I'm the most proud of

Both ALP policies, Whitlam brought in Medibank (the precursor to Medicare) and made University free; Hawkie brought in HECS. Howard introduced the GST so they have that.

Tony has threatened to go to the polls if he doesn't get his way. This would be a great outcome I think, we should get to vote directly on such wide ranging changes to the social contract.

ALP+Green+PUP is shaping up to be a bloc against the core measures (education, medicare, pensions etc). Assuming I can f*****g math this morning that's 38 in the new Senate - a tie even if Tone manages to get all the minor parties to vote for his s***.
Section 23 of the Constitution requires that in the event of a tied division, the question is resolved in the negative.

I'd love to see the Coalition try to bring it to the people over this. Its such a fail, did he not look at the f*****g numbers before trying to slip in a bunch of Coalition ideology under the guise of a budget emergency? There's a reason Australians don't often get asked to vote on Medicare cutbacks, not even Howard was game though he was keen.

So Tone may have 2 choices, neither especially appealing: impotency in Government or facing a pissed off electorate. In the latter case he will have to stick to his agenda as introduced because nobody will believe him if he says a watered down version is the real deal now, given that he surprised us all after 'no changes to health, education, pensions. No new taxes'. You get to break a promise or two, people are cynical enough to grumble about it and forget when the next series of the Block starts, but f*** me, the Coalition basically broke them all.

Is this how 'adult Governments' run the place? Introduce legislation that was not part of their election platform that can't realistically pass review? Its like Tone's just waking up now after the budget reception and realising that a PM is not a king. Say what you like about the Gillard Government, for a minority Government they passed a s***load of legislation.
08:38am 15/05/14 Permalink
Taipan
USA
4675 posts
Making polarising statements about [political party that you don't like] just opens the door for equally one-sided statements about [political party you do like]. Trying to pretend politics is black or white is why America has this f***ed two party system. There are shades of gray and it's important to remember that. Vote for the smaller parties who represent your particular views if you want to see changes that are more applicable to you personally and remember that the big parties are trying to appeal to everyone - so you're going to lose out no matter what with some of their decisions.



The trouble with that trog is that those people invite such black and white statements when you hear them all parroting the same s***. Boat people blah blah blah Welfare blah blah blah, you're a criminal/unemployed/low paid/rape victim because it's all your own fault. It's a pretty common ideal on the left for people to want to raise the conditions of all those around them, however on the right it's always about me me me.

I know politics isn't black and white. But when you have a party get in based on simplistic 3 word catch phrases centered around fear mongering and their followers make those things the total focus of their arguement I think its pretty fair to tar all those f*****s with the same brush. If someone wants to tar me with the socialist brush more power to them, I'll wear that tag with some pride because to me it says I give a f*** about everyone not just my own selfish crap. I'm cool with that
09:02am 15/05/14 Permalink
Basket
Gold Coast, Queensland
867 posts
Well..... Guess I'm not going to uni next year.

f*****g great.
09:10am 15/05/14 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
24256 posts
Guess you should have just worked harder then.
09:12am 15/05/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
USA
37733 posts
yer, in theory trog.

im sure loads of people didnt like labor or liberal and voted for indepedents or greens.

they still got tony.
But we've got Clive in there as well!



The more Clives we've got in there, the better.
09:59am 15/05/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37856 posts
haha, did people intentionally vote for clive though?

i find that slightly hard to believe as well. ;)
10:01am 15/05/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1839 posts
haha, did people intentionally vote for clive though?

i find that slightly hard to believe as well. ;)
Tracking Abbott's Wreckage and Broken Promises

One doesn't wonder with Abbott's wreckage why people are voting with their feet.
10:21am 15/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8479 posts
This might be the single most insane thing in the budget from what I've seen that is I reckon going to have a notable impact on Australia that will be remembered for its terrible effects for decades after it gets rolled back, after the damage has been done by blind idealists who care little for facts or whether it truly helps the budget or economy.



(Meanwhile, there's quarter of a billion dollars for untrained religious propaganda pushers in schools, and they've just rolled back Labor's changes which allowed the job to at least be filled by a non-religious person who was there to help students).
07:50pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
8468 posts
Tony has threatened to go to the polls if he doesn't get his way. This would be a great outcome I think, we should get to vote directly on such wide ranging changes to the social contract.


I think the general public should be pushing for this. I don't see it happening though. I've been wondering, under what circumstances can the Governor General sack the PM and/or dissolve parliament and bring about an election? Surely to do so it can't just be on the basis of "your popularity seems low", or even "you've gone against election promises". Surely there is some basis on which the GG could say "These guys have been outright dishonest and have disenfranchised anyone who voted at the last election".

Even though it's so incredibly unlikely, because the GG was appointed by our favorite PM, what would it take for the general public to urge this to happen?
08:43pm 15/05/14 Permalink
WirlWind
Central Coast, New South Wales
598 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Inapprop. language/links
Send Private Message
08:46pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8480 posts
To be honest, it would be the one chance for the queen/GG to show that they are worthwhile to those who doubt them, if they are willing to stand up to the cheerleader traditionalists who put them there once they start behaving like this. I cannot imagine the newstart change really going through and what it would mean for anybody not born to privilege if they have a moment of bad luck when young, it seems like it's just going to be one of the biggest disasters in this country in a long time.
08:52pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Eorl
AusGamers Editor
Brisbane, Queensland
12258 posts
That was a really good speech Nerf, definitely shines more light on the fact that by hurting the younger generation you won't have anyone growing up willing (or able) to pay your taxes and levies. But hey, they all got their degrees for free so stuff em right?
09:15pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15646 posts
Making sure young people can become productive and earners over 40+ years is worth giving them a bit of cash when they are 20. It boggles the mind that people that think investing in real estate and other capital expensive, and often loss producing (negative gearing, pfft) are the same people that can't seem to understand that Family Tax benefits, Newstart payments, and affordable access to Uni's are an investment in the future of the country.

You invest in the families and young people of the country, so that they can grow up and give back significant returns on that investment. It seems so trivial, yet they ignore it and call it 'hand outs'.

Sure there are some people who wont give a good return, a large majority do though. It's like not investing in the Stocks because a couple companies fold. Ridiculous.

10:55pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15647 posts
10:56pm 15/05/14 Permalink
Sir Redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1350 posts