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Prime Minister Tony Abbott says ABC not on Australia's side
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11445 posts
Prime Minister Tony Abbott has stepped up his criticism of the ABC, accusing the national broadcaster of being unpatriotic in its coverage of the Edward Snowden leaks and asylum seeker abuse claims.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/tony-abbott-steps-up-criticism-of-abc/5224676

"A lot of people feel at the moment that the ABC instinctively takes everyone's side but Australia's," he said in an interview with Ray Hadley on Sydney radio station 2GB.

Acting Opposition Leader Tanya Plibersek says the ABC is a longstanding part of Australia's cultural fabric.
"Since it began, every government has been subject to the close scrutiny of the ABC, and we should all welcome that.


Tone you sook.
02:41pm 29/01/14 Permalink
system
Internet
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02:41pm 29/01/14 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7364 posts
abbot might have got more support on this if he had just said that the abc leans to the left... because it does.. but unaustralian!? tone plz.
02:44pm 29/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2291 posts
ABC is the most reliable news source in Australia. He better not f*** with it.

Abbott is just crying because he doesn't have complete control over them to spread his bulls***.

ABC might lean to the left, but that's because the truth is left leaning. Things like climate change, and such are seen as left wing, but they're neutral in reality. Science shows that. I'm almost certain that the ABC was as critical of the ALP when they were in control as they are of LNP. It's just that LNP's f*** ups are more frequent and Abbott seems to be losing support fast.
02:46pm 29/01/14 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1594 posts
Unlike that "honest" Murdoch media...
02:48pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7127 posts
Mr Abbott also empathised with Hadley, who complained that he and fellow host Alan Jones "who lean a bit to the right" were "belted over the head" "on a regular basis" by the media regulator, the Australian Communications Media Authority...
Comedy gold.
03:09pm 29/01/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1707 posts

Well if it weren't for Aunty we wouldn't get news like this;

http://www.ausgamers.com/forums/general/thread.php/3407115


03:17pm 29/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
530 posts
This post has been removed.
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03:17pm 29/01/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10959 posts
ABC is the most reliable news source in Australia.


Seriously, if you cant see whats wrong with The ABC then you are a Lefty Loon.
Try to find a Right Winger at the ABC, its harder than finding a Virgin in a Brothel.

When Taxpayers are funding The ABC it must be unbiased and reflect the views of all the Community not just one side of Politics.
03:19pm 29/01/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1708 posts
The ABC have been acting in a very blatant biased political way since the election of the new government. It's no secret that they have a left wing leaning, especially with most of their journalists being left wing inner city hipsters.


Most ABC staff work outside of the cities. In any case the Head of the ABC is known for his support of Abbott.

You really don't have a clue, but you are clearly a mexican.
03:21pm 29/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21110 posts
ABCs news is great, the rest of it is just Melbourne Centric hipster political activism. Privatise ABC and keep ABC24: problem solved.
03:21pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15024 posts
Good idea, sell more stuff!
03:26pm 29/01/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11446 posts
First they deny something illegal breaks our law with their so called "fact check" unit, then they publish baseless accusations against our Navy personnel from asylum shoppers and people smugglers who are angry they were turned back.


I'm not saying it happened or accusing the Australian Navy of anything, but you don't seem to understand how journalism works. Their job is to report the news, which they did by saying the claims were being investigated by the Indonesians.

Their job is to publicise what is happening around their world, not ignore certain things because the government doesn't want it to come out. That's clearly what Tony Abbott wants and said in the interview. He doesn't seem to understand how journalism works either.
03:36pm 29/01/14 Permalink
parabol
Brisbane, Queensland
7685 posts
The ABC have been acting in a very blatant biased political way ...

If you call that biased, then what do you call this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/4866296-3x4-700x933.jpg
03:45pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Audi
Perth, Western Australia
552 posts
But to be fair the Labor party were in a f*****g shambles.
03:56pm 29/01/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3399 posts
When Taxpayers are funding The ABC it must be unbiased and reflect the views of all the Community not just one side of Politics.
You don't even know the meaning of the word unbiased. The ABC should report without the notion of left or right politics, i.e. they should be reporting about facts which as has been pointed out is quite often the enemy of both sides of politics but mostly right wing nut jobs like yourself.
04:04pm 29/01/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1207 posts
This post has been removed.
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04:17pm 29/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
792 posts


Most ABC staff work outside of the cities.


Sure they may work outside of them, but they are still inner city hipsters who come/live in the inner city.

But to be fair the Labor party were in a f*****g shambles.


Everyone has forgotten about that. The Abbot government is now worse because they have cut some advisory councils. lol.

But to be fair the Labor party were in a f*****g shambles.


Everyone has forgotten about that. The Abbot government is now worse because they have cut some advisory councils. lol.


I'm not saying it happened or accusing the Australian Navy of anything, but you don't seem to understand how journalism works. Their job is to report the news, which they did by saying the claims were being investigated by the Indonesians..


It's not "news" it's rumours and baseless accusations. They don't normally report baseless accusations. They are our national broadcaster and are suppose to be working in our best interest and promoting Australia. How does reporting false and baseless accusations against our Navy help our image?
04:18pm 29/01/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10960 posts
Parabol, Murdoch papers are not funded by Taxpayers, they can print whatever they like. If they dont sell, they go out of business.



04:18pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7128 posts
They are our national broadcaster and are suppose to be working in our best interest and promoting Australia.
I think you've got propaganda and journalism confused.
04:20pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8224 posts
Ultra right-wing opinion piece writers complaining about the ABC is usually funny, but when one of them manages to transfer to being prime minister and starts setting up their pieces like this it's a bit more worrying.

Can't have a single remaining station actually reporting the science and so on I guess, they're now only allowed to be the propaganda unit.

Just f*****g lol at the usual types in this thread trying to defend anything that the coalition does, if it was Gillard decrying the ABC journalists for not toeing the government line, these people and their cultish media megaphones would be crying bloody murder non-stop day and night.
04:32pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1187 posts

http://www2.webster.edu/medialiteracy/journal/FINALKARLROVE.pdf

Check page 20. Straight out of Turd Blossom's playbook.
04:51pm 29/01/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4796 posts
They are our national broadcaster and are suppose to be working in our best interest and promoting Australia.

I think you've got propaganda and journalism confused.


yep
05:02pm 29/01/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11447 posts
It's not "news" it's rumours and baseless accusations. They don't normally report baseless accusations. They are our national broadcaster and are suppose to be working in our best interest and promoting Australia. How does reporting false and baseless accusations against our Navy help our image?


Did you even see the story when it was on ABC News on television? I did.
05:09pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37295 posts
tone plz
05:12pm 29/01/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4833 posts
they reported there were claims of abuse, and showed the proof

the navy flat out denied, and provide no evidence or answered any questions

the abc reported this, it didn't make wild arse claims, it gave the navy and the government a chance to defend/excuse
05:19pm 29/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
793 posts
they reported there were claims of abuse, and showed the proof


CLAIMS of abuse. Exactly. So if i injured my hand and then went to the ABC and said "oh julia gillard did this to me" they should then report it right? Even thought my claims are completely baseless.
05:27pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7129 posts
Even thought my claims are completely baseless.
That's because Julia Gillard has never been in your mother's basement.
05:36pm 29/01/14 Permalink
icewyrm
Brisbane, Queensland
2549 posts
CLAIMS of abuse. Exactly. So if i injured my hand and then went to the ABC and said "oh julia gillard did this to me" they should then report it right? Even thought my claims are completely baseless.


They could certainly report that you'd made an accusation. If they had evidence you were lying, they could also report that the worlds biggest wanker had injured his hand and lied about the cause.

Reporting that X said Y, is different than saying that Y is true.

Reporting that Y is being investigated or has not yet been confirmed, is also different than saying Y is true.

05:45pm 29/01/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19154 posts
tone plz
05:58pm 29/01/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4834 posts
personally I think that the navy needs to be looked into

it is one thing to stand by your men, and say they did no wrong while investigating the matter

it is another to take their word for it, and deny all and any wrong doing.


it is the later that has seen the ADF is alot of hot water in the past
06:12pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15025 posts
Tonez is targeting ABC cause his ol' mates in Washington don't like how ABC reported on Snowden I bet.
06:14pm 29/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21112 posts
Can't wait for QANDA to start back up so we can have some more episodes dedicated to
Climate change
Gay marriage
Muslim women's issues
Refugee issues
Religious theology

You know... all the BBQ stoppers.

they reported there were claims of abuse, and showed the proof


their proof was verbal evidence from asylum seekers attempting to enter australia illegally, and some of the alleged injuries. it would be too much to ask a rickety boat to carry a dashcam.

next time i want to allege police brutally at a traffic stop i will just slam my hand in the car door before I call up today tonight. that's proof!
06:31pm 29/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
794 posts
That's because Julia Gillard has never been in your mother's basement.


Exactly, but that doesn't matter hence why it would be a baseless accusation.


next time i want to allege police brutally at a traffic stop i will just slam my hand in the car door before I call up today tonight. that's proof!


LMAO. Sounds like a plan, you should report it to the ABC, they would pick it up straight away.
06:41pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8225 posts
Can't wait for QANDA to start back up so we can have some more episodes dedicated to
Climate change
Gay marriage
Muslim women's issues
Refugee issues
Religious theology


A list of topics in which the party that you're a member of comes out looking like the fool every time their positions are put under much scrutiny. Thanks for basically admitting that it's politically motivated due to not liking when people disagree with you or call you out on flaws.
06:41pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15026 posts

it would be too much to ask a rickety boat to carry a dashcam.


Surely the navy had it filmed though, they could prove nothing happened. But is is fair to make the accused have to prove they are innocent as apposed to guilty.. Campbell Newmen doesn't think so lol
06:50pm 29/01/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4835 posts
their proof was verbal evidence from asylum seekers attempting to enter australia illegally, and some of the alleged injuries. it would be too much to ask a rickety boat to carry a dashcam.

next time i want to allege police brutally at a traffic stop i will just slam my hand in the car door before I call up today tonight. that's proof!


point is no matter how false the proof ended up being, there was proof, hey reported they side, they asked for comment from the navy which refused to play ball, the right thing would have been (imo) to come out and say we believe the alleged injuries are false, and while we stand by our men, we will be investigating the matter to the fullest

my feelings are that this whole closed shop the government is running regarding information about boat people is more harmful, and is more about spin and an attempt to keep a promise than solve the issue
06:50pm 29/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21113 posts
Exactly, but that doesn't matter hence why it would be a baseless accusation.


actually it would be a basementless accusation.
07:08pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2309 posts
Seems like a lot of people in Australia don't understand the concept of a 'free press'?

When you've got the PM decrying a news outlet like the ABC it looks like pretty bad times to me.
07:38pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
71 posts
when they say "left wing", what they really mean is that the abc is not right wing extremists like alan jones, or snotty wanker bolt, or the murdoch press which is blatant in their bias.

Leaving aside the editorials (which contain plenty of right leaning, status quo stuff anyway), where is the evidence that the ABC is'left wing'?

There isn't any. 'Left wing' just mean they are not blindly following the murdoch/abott agenda; the agenda of the billionaires and their constant pillaging.
08:28pm 29/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
931 posts
Well i like most of what is on the ABC. I find them well balanced and educational.

The issue is when people try to compare the ABC's content to what is from other "new sources" aka the Murdoch press or shock jock alan jones types then of course the ABC seems "left leaning" or "biased". The centered balanced middle would look that way from the extreme right wouldn't it.
08:42pm 29/01/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6676 posts
I must admit I'm sick of hearing about boat people and gay marriage.

It would be great if gays could marry becuase then we could stop hearing about it.

Back to Tony. I wish Malcolm would hurry up and knife this d*******.
08:43pm 29/01/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6677 posts
Meanwhile, asian buyers are pushing up house prices and using our tax dollars to offset their losses on Sydney Investment Properties.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/01/it-was-a-shock-when-16-chinese-bid-wildly-for-the-flat/

We’ll determine who can buy houses here, and the circumstances in which they can buy them”



09:14pm 29/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21114 posts
Private owned newspapers have to publish news and commentary that people finding interesting, and are willing to pay for with their own money, and advertisers think will encourage readers to buy the newspaper. If they don't, they go broke. Privately owned media must remain relevant.

Fairfax is driven by this just as much as Murdoch, except Fairfax is bad at business.

The ABC publishes whatever opinions it finds interesting to itself. The ABCs commentary is out of touch - an idealistic intelligentsia.
09:32pm 29/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2292 posts
I love the right wingers here getting up in ABC's grill. The ABC just reports the news. The news may have a left bias, because facts generally don't agree with the conservative bulls*** world view you guys have. Climate change being a real thing, conservatives like to think otherwise. The horrible way asylum seekers are treated, well both parties are guilty of that and ABC reported it that way. Abbott's stupid f*****g idiotic policies and being a general embarrassment to Australia on a world forum, well of course that'll upset you right wingers.

The ABC does great things for us. The last thing we need is privately owned media reporting their own bias. ABC reports the news as it is, what sort of purpose would a bias do for them anyway? They get funding from the government. They just report it as it is. The only reason people think it has a bias now is because Abbott is kicking up a s*** storm because they're saying things he doesn't want. Which is scary, especially when he's supposed to be leading a democracy.

One term Tony. I hope to god this mob of d*******s doesn't get a second term. Clearly, while cutting spending because ALP was so reckless with it, our almighty and glorious leader, Tony, is reviving the wind turbine syndrome. Despite the fact it doesn't exist, he still wants to examine it. Probably because wind turbines are a left wing green agenda. Coal is king!
09:45pm 29/01/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1218 posts
The ABC publishes whatever opinions it finds interesting to itself. The ABCs commentary is out of touch - an idealistic intelligentsia.


Completely agree, Chris Berg and Peter Reith need to go :)
09:57pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1551 posts
ABC = Awful Bad Communists. Faceman and Psycho told me so.
10:07pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Nukleuz
Perth, Western Australia
425 posts
The ABC publishes whatever opinions it finds interesting to itself. The ABCs commentary is out of touch - an idealistic intelligentsia.


I always get that feeling when reading Peter Reith's 'The Drum' pieces. That guy really is out of touch.
10:33pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8226 posts
Private owned newspapers have to publish news and commentary that people finding interesting, and are willing to pay for with their own money, and advertisers think will encourage readers to buy the newspaper. If they don't, they go broke. Privately owned media must remain relevant.

Fairfax is driven by this just as much as Murdoch, except Fairfax is bad at business.

The ABC publishes whatever opinions it finds interesting to itself. The ABCs commentary is out of touch - an idealistic intelligentsia.

That's like saying pyramid schemes and snake oil scams have to make a profit, when scientific-based medicine could still turn a valid lesser profit, yet requires actually having ethics and actually putting real work in rather than running something bordering on a cult.

Newscorp doesn't try to sell a genuine news product much of the time, it tries to sell ideological propaganda and outrage, leading to cases such as one of their more infamous outlet having to gain a court ruling stating that they are allowed to lie because they sell entertainment, not news. Even Murdoch has expressed views about some of the heads of his outlets being nutjobs, but a kind of crazy that brings exploitable customers - he knows that he's selling them tripe and even outright harmful products.
10:46pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Zak
Brisbane, Queensland
3052 posts
Just to clarify, both Fairfax and Channel 7 reported the Navy story the day after the ABC first did.

Source - http://www.theage.com.au/comment/immigration-minister-scott-morrison-speaks-out--and-shoots-the-messenger-20140128-31ksw.html
10:50pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8227 posts
Not very patriotic of them, why are they trying to sabotage Australia by reporting news which might reflect badly on the federal government? I hate this feeling that the media isn't on my side, reporting allegations given to their reporters.
10:52pm 29/01/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11449 posts
Tonight and last night the ABC's 7:30 program had lengthy reports about corruption in the construction unions, including ties to criminal bikie gangs.

Now if that is not a right wing approved story I don't know what is. They were reporting on something newsworthy, which is what they do. It has prompted talk of a royal commission in to the unions by the Abbott government, something the Labor party is claiming is an unnecessary measure.

I agree with the prospect of a commission instigated by the LNP, but I also think climate change is real. Who am I?

I'm an ABC viewer.

last edited by dais at 23:15:18 29/Jan/14
11:13pm 29/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
932 posts
When the revolution comes the ABC will be the 1st up against the wall
11:24pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
10229 posts
infi and his crazy agendas.


News and Murdoch are not sources of news.

They are churnalism
11:36pm 29/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21115 posts
One news outlet is funded through the income of customers and advertisers who voluntarily choose to pay for its news services. The other news outlet is funded through taxes taken by force from the people.

One stays relevant or goes bust, the other simply could not give a f*** because it gets $1b every year.

I listen to 612 ABC all day, but that is because they don't have any of the political op-ed on there. It is important to distinguish between news and op-ed. For op-ed I read News Limited and listen to 4BC in the arvos. They are in touch with the punters.
11:43pm 29/01/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13443 posts
11:52pm 29/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
534 posts
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12:07am 30/01/14 Permalink
parabol
Brisbane, Queensland
7686 posts
lol @ faceman, infi and brool trying to justify why front-page Labor bashing in a newspaper during an election is perfectly OK, but coverage of LNP policy during their term are not - with competely irrelevant references to private/taxpayer funding, as if that makes any bloody difference in the discussion.

Jesus christ, do you guys even read your own posts to see how biased and silly you come across? No, really. Honest question.
12:19am 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
933 posts
parabol it is amusing seeing these LNP types flailing about trying their best to make a case for yet another political blunder and a step away from what Australia should be. Yet i believe the whole private/taxpayer funding issue might play a role in the discussion. Just not the role its been set up for so far by our friends the tony supporters.

We all should know by now that the LNP loves selling things off and privatization. Government is answerable to the people. And people can be silly and swayed by lots of things. Good and bad. Privatization is by corporation. And corporations only care about one thing - money. Something LNP types really know how to use to buy and sell. Heart and minds.

You see its great that the ABC does not have to pander to private interests. Does not have to use its editorial space to sell advertising and make decisions on what to report on, or not report on, based on how those reports might affect their advertisers. Because of the government funding, precisely because they dont need to worry at all about base commercial interests, the ABC is able to remain balanced and UN-biased.

Why LNP types dont like this arrangement is because that means the ABC doesnt have to play the game. And that is against the rules. What game? That money is king game. So the LNP types hate it. In their world money is everything. Its your status. Your power. Your force. It defines you. It tells others who you are. Worse it tell you who you are. Money is in charge and who has it is the master. It is abhorrent and unnatural then, to these types, to have an entity completely unaffected by commercial concerns. It must really piss LNP types off no end that they cant pull out a wallet and say "how much".

"How much to not print that story". "How much to print it but make out we are actually the good ol boys". "How much to just make it all go away". It works great with murdoch but not with the ABC and that really gets their backs up. You cant buy someone who doesn't need nor want your money. But tones is trying!

To all the LNP types. Please dont confuse "relevance to today" with successfully "pandering to the base common denominator". Inciting fear and hatred has never been difficult. Pandering to negative social and cultural values also - not difficult. Tearing things down is always easier than building things up. And the murdocs and limiteds and alan jones of the world are all very good at the game.

A final thought: murdocs and limiteds and alan jones couldnt give a wet fart what was best for Australia. They also couldnt care what social or cultural values were at play - relevant to them is who is currently paying for space in their rag or paying for airtime on their show. That and relevant is pushing the agenda of the hand that pays. Their relevant is the latest jingle. The latest funny advertisement of no substance but full entertainment.

The fact that LNP types, along with certain C / D demographics feel such pap, propaganda and basic advertising falls under any form of "relevant" shows only that they have a lack of critical thought and awareness of today's cultural and social landscape.

About as relevant as a late night infomercial shown with the backing of a Nuremberg rally soundtrack on a 24/7 repeat. When this sort of topic rears its ugly head you can almost hear the Fascists are on the march and as fpot said "Literal fascism. Not hyperbolic internet omg those guys are fascist fascism, but literal fascism"
http://www.ausgamers.com/forums/general/thread.php/3398504?p=27.

Free press. Not much of it is free these days. We should fight for what is left.
01:14am 30/01/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
535 posts
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01:24am 30/01/14 Permalink
Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
2280 posts
ABC News on TV is not bearable but the Articles on the ABC News website are full of spin.

The audience profiling and Twitter moderation on Q and A is a joke.
01:53am 30/01/14 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
419 posts
Seriously, if you cant see whats wrong with The ABC then you are a Lefty Loon.
Try to find a Right Winger at the ABC, its harder than finding a Virgin in a Brothel.

Right wingers tend to be psychopathic f***wits. Why would you want them reporting the news?
02:27am 30/01/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37599 posts
The ABC publishes whatever opinions it finds interesting to itself. The ABCs commentary is out of touch - an idealistic intelligentsia.
The ABC's commentary LOOKS out of touch when compared to other "news" outlets, because the contrast is so stark, and they don't have an agenda to get eyeballs.
02:34am 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21116 posts
I don't know what Brool wrote but did he accuse anyone of facism? When is an accusation of facism modded? Do you even know what facism is?

I am all for a free press, just that a national broadcaster doing whatever it wants and filling its staff with inner city hipster types doesn't lend for diversity. There are plenty of hipsters in Murdoch and Fairfax ranks.
08:10am 30/01/14 Permalink
Azaria
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory
1218 posts
I am all for a free press, just that a national broadcaster doing whatever it wants and filling its staff with inner city hipster types doesn't lend for diversity. There are plenty of hipsters in Murdoch and Fairfax ranks.


This couldn't be any further from the truth. Most of the journo's DO come from diverse backgrounds. For a start to be an ABC cadet you need to do the equivalent of rural service which involves a couple of years in a country towns when they then usually go to capital cities then make their way to parliament house. That way when pollies are talking about electorate specific issues someone will have a handle on it.

I would be embarrassed to just form an opinion of the ABC staff based on something a radio shock jock stated and then repeat ad nauseam like it's established fact. It's more like extreme left and right wingers don't have a diverse background so view the world with blinkered vision where everything they see and hear is through a left/right prism.

the Articles on the ABC News website are full of spin.


Example? Other than from The Drum Opinions section which at the moment has Michaelia Cash, Mungo MacCallum and Chris Berg articles up amongst others. Of course it's going to have spin, just like other opinion columns on any of the major broadsheets.
08:32am 30/01/14 Permalink
Vash
3894 posts
I'd rather hipster around than selfish pure capitalist types
08:38am 30/01/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37299 posts
4bc :(
08:40am 30/01/14 Permalink
glynd
Melbourne, Victoria
1121 posts
Mr Abbott also empathised with Hadley, who complained that he and fellow host Alan Jones "who lean a bit to the right" were "belted over the head" "on a regular basis" by the media regulator, the Australian Communications Media Authority.


Alan Jones deserves to "belted over the head" "on a regular basis" for asking if an 8 year old "asked for it" when she was molested. How that c*** is still on the radio, I do not know.

As for the ABC, I never had any problems with their news. Far better than most other news sources. Don't even bother with theage.com.au anymore after enforcing the online subscription.
09:17am 30/01/14 Permalink
Vash
3895 posts
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
09:25am 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1242 posts
Not to s*** on your parade Vash, but wasn't Hitler an Atheist? Or at least openly hostile toward most mainstream christian groups?

Seems like a fairly major f*** up in a paper identifying common threads of fascism to find something that doesn't exist in the gran-daddy of them all. See point 8.

ABC biased teehee.
09:38am 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8228 posts
Not to s*** on your parade Vash, but wasn't Hitler an Atheist? Or at least openly hostile toward most mainstream christian groups?

Uh no, Hitler was a vocal Catholic

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work." [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
09:43am 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8229 posts
Abbott to kill ABC’s Australia Network

It seems that it's only ever a budget emergency when it's something that the neocon's ideology doesn't like, where there seems to be endless money for say yet another round of studies on the well discredited 'windfarm illness', which totally isn't waste...
09:50am 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1243 posts
I see that and raise you:
Hitler's intimates, such as Joseph Goebbels, Albert Speer, and Martin Bormann record that Hitler was deeply hostile to Christianity. Ian Kershaw wrote that, while Hitler would occasionally tell his inner circle that he wanted to delay the 'Church struggle" out of political considerations, his inflammatory remarks gave his underlings license to intensify their church struggle
In his memoirs, Hitler's chief architect, Albert Speer, wrote "Amid his political associates in Berlin, Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church...", yet "he conceived of the church as an instrument that could be useful to him":
Hitler emphasised that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on modern science.[149] In a diary entry of 28 December 1939, Joseph Goebbels wrote that "the Fuhrer passionately rejects any thought of founding a religion. He has no intention of becoming a priest. His sole exclusive role is that of a politician."[150] In Hitler's political relations dealing with religion he readily adopted a strategy "that suited his immediate political purposes."
Hitler's invasion of predominantly Catholic Poland in 1939 ignited the Second World War. Kerhsaw wrote that, in Hitler's scheme for the Germanization of the East, "There would, he made clear, be no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches".[191] Hitler instigated a policy of murdering or suppressing the ethnic Polish elites: including religious leaders.


You can see more on it here.

Anyway I don't want to drag us anymore off topic.
09:53am 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8230 posts
Being hostile to the church (a rival power) does not mean he was irreligious, nor is it uncommon for religious despots to get into arguments with other religious leaders - King Henry the 8th fought the church until he made his own, but he remained a christian, which is why the royal family are now the heads of the church of england.

As for claiming that it was based in science, religious folk say that all the time about everything, even religious arguments - anti-homosexuality is often claimed to be 'based in science', anti-abortion rights is often claimed to be 'based in science', etc. I don't even see what Nazism supposedly being based in science would have to do with him being religious or not anyway.
10:01am 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1244 posts
Yeah, I think its pretty hard to reconcile putting "the Church to use" or being a committed vocal catholic with rounding them up and killing them.

I think another plausible explanation would be that he hated communism more and they already wore the atheism badge.

The 3rd Reich's technology credentials are fairly compelling.

Anyway I think it's fair to say that he never established a state religion and was hostile to the idea, which undermines point 8 in that list of s*** fascists do pretty hard.

Promise I won't talk about it any more it is off topic.
10:19am 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8231 posts
If the ABC is owned by the federal government, and Tony Abbott criticises it, does that mean that he's not on Australia's side and isn't patriotic enough?
11:39am 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
936 posts

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism seems pretty spot on to me?

And if one of the 14 seems incongruent it is a minor thing because the other 13 are fair.

That said in regards to the Nazi's the religious thing is accurate. They let the Vatican be to the most part. They even let the Vatican post their own armed guards at the borders of the Vatican. There was also the story of the catholic priests who were against the nazi but also for the nazi. Some priests protested and were aware of the death camps. They reported to the Vatican to report but the Vatican didnt want to know (or were unable to directly intervene) so the priests were sent to the camps.

Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp

Catholic Church and Nazi Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany

a good film about it: Amen
During WWII SS officer Kurt Gerstein tries to inform Pope Pius XII about Jews being sent to concentration camps. Young Jesuit priest Riccardo Fontana gives him a hand.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280653/



But yeah of all the 14 things about the emergence of facisim and what that has to do with Australia atm the religious line seems pretty weak. There are some good ones in there like:

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Well we are at war right now hey! War on people smugglers! lol


11:58am 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1245 posts
Er both those wiki articles talk about the Nazi's brutal repression of Christianity?
12:34pm 30/01/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11450 posts
From that SMH article shody posted:

Mr Abbott told radio 2GB that Australians wanted ''some basic affection for the home team'', but Mr Turnbull said the broadcaster was more constrained by rules around editorial fairness than its competitors in commercial media.

''The ABC has to play it straight down the middle. The ABC has a bargain with the Australian people. They have to be rigorously balanced in their coverage.

''Remember, if it wasn't for the ABC and Fairfax we might not know of the latest round of union corruption.''
12:56pm 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
938 posts
No both those wiki articles talk about the Nazi's repression of Christianity in some cases AND how the Nazi's also worked with the Catholic church is some other area's.

You see i watch the ABC so im able to see both sides of a story.

Never hear about "Ratlines"?
02:04pm 30/01/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37600 posts
02:15pm 30/01/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4798 posts
from Sportsbet

First Leader to go Markets
Applies to the first leader to be replaced as leader of their respective party.

Christine Milne 1.45 Bill Shorten 3.50 Tony Abbott 6.00

i think Tony may come in a bit after his recent performances. Christine must be on shaky ground.

more at Sportsbet
02:30pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8232 posts

Abbott to kill ABC's Australia Network

This is after Abbott's election promise for no cuts to the ABC - http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/06/no-cuts-abc-or-sbs-abbott

Of course, now prepare for infi ranting about why it's okay to lie in election campaigns if you're on the right side...
02:55pm 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1246 posts
It wasn't core enough to be a core promise.
02:56pm 30/01/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4799 posts
Interesting discussion on ABC this morning. it's a 2.30 minutes in where he discusses why he thinks Tony is on to the ABC



last edited by crazymorton at 15:17:32 30/Jan/14

last edited by crazymorton at 15:19:44 30/Jan/14
03:16pm 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
939 posts
thx crazymorton for that interview.

"Putting aside ideology or partisanship. Looking at just commercial rivals".

Very interesting. Hmmm commercial networks trying to make a dime out of news might not like supplied free content that is provided by - ABC.

And who is the buddy of News Limited ? Especially after certain "editorial headlines" from during the election?
03:51pm 30/01/14 Permalink
cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
1943 posts
So typical of a formula used today. Throw out some carefully scripted words and watch the s*** fly, monitor public reaction - adjust accordingly.

Anyway, here's something that should be of interest coalition government manifesto ?

1 Repeal the carbon tax, and don't replace it. It will be one thing to remove the burden of the carbon tax from the Australian economy. But if it is just replaced by another costly scheme, most of the benefits will be undone.

2 Abolish the Department of Climate Change

3 Abolish the Clean Energy Fund

4 Repeal Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act

5 Abandon Australia's bid for a seat on the United Nations Security Council

6 Repeal the renewable energy target

7 Return income taxing powers to the states

8 Abolish the Commonwealth Grants Commission

9 Abolish the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission

10 Withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol

11 Introduce fee competition to Australian universities

12 Repeal the National Curriculum

13 Introduce competing private secondary school curriculums

14 Abolish the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA)

15 Eliminate laws that require radio and television broadcasters to be 'balanced'

16 Abolish television spectrum licensing and devolve spectrum management to the common law

17 End local content requirements for Australian television stations

18 Eliminate family tax benefits

19 Abandon the paid parental leave scheme

20 Means-test Medicare

21 End all corporate welfare and subsidies by closing the Department of Industry, Innovation, Science, Research and Tertiary Education

22 Introduce voluntary voting

23 End mandatory disclosures on political donations

24 End media blackout in final days of election campaigns

25 End public funding to political parties

26 Remove anti-dumping laws

27 Eliminate media ownership restrictions

28 Abolish the Foreign Investment Review Board

29 Eliminate the National Preventative Health Agency

30 Cease subsidising the car industry

31 Formalise a one-in, one-out approach to regulatory reduction

32 Rule out federal funding for 2018 Commonwealth Games

33 Deregulate the parallel importation of books

34 End preferences for Industry Super Funds in workplace relations laws

35 Legislate a cap on government spending and tax as a percentage of GDP

36 Legislate a balanced budget amendment which strictly limits the size of budget deficits and the period the federal government can be in deficit

37 Force government agencies to put all of their spending online in a searchable database

38 Repeal plain packaging for cigarettes and rule it out for all other products, including alcohol and fast food

39 Reintroduce voluntary student unionism at universities

40 Introduce a voucher scheme for secondary schools

41 Repeal the alcopops tax

42 Introduce a special economic zone in the north of Australia including:
a) Lower personal income tax for residents
b) Significantly expanded 457 Visa programs for workers
c) Encourage the construction of dams

43 Repeal the mining tax

44 Devolve environmental approvals for major projects to the states

45 Introduce a single rate of income tax with a generous tax-free threshold

46 Cut company tax to an internationally competitive rate of 25 per cent

47 Cease funding the Australia Network

48 Privatise Australia Post

49 Privatise Medibank

50 Break up the ABC and put out to tender each individual function

51 Privatise SBS

52 Reduce the size of the public service from current levels of more than 260,000 to at least the 2001 low of 212,784

53 Repeal the Fair Work Act

54 Allow individuals and employers to negotiate directly terms of employment that suit them

55 Encourage independent contracting by overturning new regulations designed to punish contractors

56 Abolish the Baby Bonus

57 Abolish the First Home Owners' Grant

58 Allow the Northern Territory to become a state

59 Halve the size of the Coalition front bench from 32 to 16

60 Remove all remaining tariff and non-tariff barriers to international trade

61 Slash top public servant salaries to much lower international standards, like in the United States

62 End all public subsidies to sport and the arts

63 Privatise the Australian Institute of Sport

64 End all hidden protectionist measures, such as preferences for local manufacturers in government tendering

65 Abolish the Office for Film and Literature Classification

66 Rule out any government-supported or mandated internet censorship

67 Means test tertiary student loans

68 Allow people to opt out of superannuation in exchange for promising to forgo any government income support in retirement

69 Immediately halt construction of the National Broadband Network and privatise any sections that have already been built

70 End all government funded Nanny State advertising

71 Reject proposals for compulsory food and alcohol labelling

72 Privatise the CSIRO

73 Defund Harmony Day

74 Close the Office for Youth

75 Privatise the Snowy-Hydro Scheme
04:32pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8233 posts
This is how I imagine the person who wrote that list.

http://i.imgur.com/vjl7q69.gif
04:37pm 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
940 posts
wow i think for me its every 20 or so things i don't like on that list there might be one thing i could see as being an ok idea.

Not a very good ratio ;(

Would be a fun and informative exercise if everyone put up exactly how many out of the 75 they supported as being a good idea.
04:39pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15032 posts
Check this out, straight of Liberals Website: A comment by Tony in 2011, before he become a Prime Minister.


TONY ABBOTT:

Look, we've been very well served by the media in Australia. Yes, politicians don't always like the coverage that they get but if you're in public life you've got to take the rough with the smooth and a vigorous, critical media is an important part of a healthy democracy and I think the Prime Minister should accept that.



Hahah
04:47pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13445 posts
04:53pm 30/01/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3402 posts
Is it really surprising that Tony would have a different attitude after the election now that he has massive debts to pay? I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the first things on the agenda seem to coincide strongly with Rupert Murdoch's wishes.
04:55pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15033 posts

9 Abolish the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission


Fkn what?


Abolish the Australian Communications and Media Authority


So Murdoch and other friends of the Coalition can have a field day.


18 Eliminate family tax benefits


F*** Families, what good are they anyway.


23 End mandatory disclosures on political donations


Why?



27 Eliminate media ownership restrictions


Because having the nations media in one entities hand is totally awesome.


35 Legislate a cap on government spending and tax as a percentage of GDP


Didn't .. didn't the coalition vote down getting capped recently?



37 Force government agencies to put all of their spending online in a searchable database


I actually agree with that, however we know any government that tries this is just going to bungle it into a massive cost blowout..


64 End all hidden protectionist measures, such as preferences for local manufacturers in government tendering


Interesting...


68 Allow people to opt out of superannuation in exchange for promising to forgo any government income support in retirement


O that is absurd. People make the mistake when they are young, only to realise the magnitude of that mistake when they are older and it's too late? Stupid, stupid, stupid.



Those are the cherry picked ones, that list is a scary list.


edit: Thankfully it isn't a list direct from the Coalition.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 17:07:28 30/Jan/14
05:03pm 30/01/14 Permalink
thug
Brisbane, Queensland
177 posts
Pretty much a BIG +1 to everything said so far , he also cutting or not renewing the forrest thing in tassy, which had a lot of it as a world heritage listing, so big busisness can come in , raped the s*** out of it amd turn it into wood chips for gardens, Im sorry how did this slimey lizard get in ? i guess all those unbiased newspaper covers of rudd must have something to do with it, gestapo newman with be the death of us all!!! bunch of penises the lot of them !!!!!
05:15pm 30/01/14 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7368 posts
Check this out, straight of Liberals Website: A comment by Tony in 2011, before he become a Prime Minister.


TONY ABBOTT:

Look, we've been very well served by the media in Australia. Yes, politicians don't always like the coverage that they get but if you're in public life you've got to take the rough with the smooth and a vigorous, critical media is an important part of a healthy democracy and I think the Prime Minister should accept that.



Hahah


haha nice find toll.. taste the hypocrisy !
05:24pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8234 posts
What I don't understand is who the f*** votes for these people? Is a sizeable chunk of the country as insane/deranged as faceman/brool/infi, or do they just not pay attention?
05:35pm 30/01/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19155 posts
When i read the "means test medicare" item i knew that list was nothing more than a trolling load of s***
05:45pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
11320 posts
What I don't understand is who the f*** votes for these people? Is a sizeable chunk of the country as insane/deranged as faceman/brool/infi, or do they just not pay attention?
I have a feeling this past election a lot of people just didn't care. People were sick of the circus, of the constant back stabbing and just general chaotic nature of politics. People wanted something fresh, but the choice was pile of stink or pile of stinkier stink.

Also, that list is very scary and if any of those bullet points became true we'd be in for one hell of a ride.
06:05pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8235 posts
Abbott government to launch 'efficiency study' into ABC, SBS.

Seems to be that harassing and shutting are the two cheap tricks in the arsenal of unqualified ideologues when in power.
06:07pm 30/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2294 posts
Abbott government to launch 'efficiency study' into ABC, SBS.

Seems to be that harassing and shutting are the two cheap tricks in the arsenal of unqualified ideologues when in power.

F*****g hell. This is scary. ABC is brilliant.

Urgh. Every day I hate this current government more and more. ALP at least did stuff FOR Australian's. Gonski, NDIS, NBN, and trying to keep jobs around locally. What has LNP done? F***ed us on NBN, back flipped on Gonski and NDIS. Now they wanna f*** with ABC because they are reporting stuff that the government doesn't like. This should be scary for anyone.

Hopefully we see LNP and Abbott gone.
06:29pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15034 posts
06:52pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21117 posts
IPA, you've done it again. Best $88 I ever spent.
06:58pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8236 posts
It appears that the breaking of the contact with the abc is part of a campaign by newscorp to get the contract instead.

From a month ago

Plus it comes with this fun picture.

http://i.imgur.com/KOO3y2m.jpg
07:02pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15035 posts
Old Mate Tonez is all about Australia though, he was just whispering sweet nothings ;P
07:06pm 30/01/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4800 posts
07:14pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13447 posts
ABC, you've done it again. And my tax $ pay for you whether you're just an echo for my own blatant bias or not.
07:23pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15036 posts
It's funny that Infi can look at that picture and think that everything the coalition does is fair and for the people of Australia.


P.S. It's not.
07:43pm 30/01/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
10269 posts
didn't really read all the thread... not a statement about all of you chaps - just saying..



DID YOU KNOW... that those of us who contribute to COMMUNITY RADIO stations around the world today have done so for years now from our own homes? We don't pick ourselves up and get a cab down to the local com radio/tv station in the country we live in


would it also surprise you to know that many reporters in the world today are the same? we copied it from them actually..


today, anyone can have much, much more than their own radio station, tv station or movie studio.


but f*** me - doing that upload at 2mbit a sec is f*****g painfull... bring on the NBN


07:46pm 30/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2295 posts
It's funny that Infi can look at that picture and think that everything the coalition does is fair and for the people of Australia.


P.S. It's not.

You know what's even more fun. Infi kept going on, and on and ON about ALP wasting money. Yet here we have a PM, who is now looking to do another analysis of Wind Turbine Syndrome to see if it has negative effects on your health (protip: it doesn't. There is research there to say it doesn't), but clearly this isn't wasted money!
08:22pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15037 posts
Carson, we all know that science doesn't hold the answer and any scientific evidence about Wind Turbine Syndrome is just like the evidence of climate change, "Absolute Crap". So of course we need to do another analysis.

However instead of using those preposterous scientists, we will be looking at the clear and concise evidence from Australia's leading Psychics. We will also be taking strongly into account from the great wise man, Rupert Murdoch. Money Well spent if you ask me.
08:36pm 30/01/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6678 posts
Wow Tony got owned ... by himself.

Good, the more Abbot f**** up the closer we are to having Malcolm knife him.

Sorry to go all Faceman in this thread but I had to post this.

08:39pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21118 posts
Infi kept going on, and on and ON about ALP wasting money. Yet here we have a PM, who is now looking to do another analysis of Wind Turbine Syndrome to see if it has negative effects on your health


The ALP wasted tens of BILLIONS of dollars on pink batts and school halls and stimulus and all sorts of garbage and you're complaining about a wind turbine study?
08:48pm 30/01/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11456 posts
Malcolm Turnbull appeared on the ABC's 7:30 program tonight to discuss the efficiency study. He downplayed and avoided commenting on what Tony Abbott said and avoided a question about the ABC needing to take a "more nationalist" approach.
Basically he said, as Australia's national broadcaster, the ABC needs to be held to a very high standard.

He visibly cringed when Tony Abbott's comments were mentioned.
08:54pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15038 posts
Pink Batts? Did you even get the insulation Infi, you had a choice of what you wanted if you went to a good installer.

On one hand you want the government to stay out of free market, but when the free market gets free reign you blame the government if things go wrong. That is what happend, the government created demand for a product, the market responded by going nuts with supplying, in a few cases dangerously so. So what do you want, a regulated market or a free market? Or whatever Tonez wants?

Also, are you saying its OK to waste a little in this government because the last government wasted a lot? That is pretty stupid, particularly for a government that is all about 'stop the waste'...


God Damn it, I can't help myself, infi is a pro troll.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 20:59:07 30/Jan/14
08:57pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21119 posts
the government created demand for a product, the market responded by going nuts with supplying


do you even read what you write? a government induced bubble is now the free market in action. WRONG

free market in action would have been let the insulation industry sell its product to people willing to pay for it.

Also, are you saying its OK to waste a little in this government because the last government wasted a lot? That is pretty stupid, particularly for a government that is all about 'stop the waste'...


i don't approve of any waste, but hey if you are against scientific research....
09:01pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12007 posts

This is Abbott pushing the big business agenda plain and simple. Ever since ABC launched ABC News 24 in particular, Murdoch has been throwing the biggest fit ever. He knows its a free news service his business can't compete with. It has better funding, better quality and better content. It's news reporting is unbiased as it does not need to appease share holders, or drop stories because it would affect a sponsor or advertiser. If it wasn't for the ABC, decent kids shows would never get a look in. Other channels don't show them because there's no money to be made from the advertising.

There's a lot the ABC does beyond just the news that's in everyone's best interests.
09:07pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15039 posts

do you even read what you write? a government induced bubble is now the free market in action. WRONG


Regardless of where the demand came from it was still demand. The market responded to the demand like it would from any other source of demand. It wasn't the governments fault that some of the suppliers were totally s***. Unless you expect the government to step in and dictate how the market is to respond to demand, is that what you want? A highly regulated market?
09:13pm 30/01/14 Permalink
koopz
Brisbane, Queensland
2896 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Off-Topic
Send Private Message
09:14pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21120 posts
A market responds organically. When the government artificially creates bubbles then information is not symmetrical and the situation will be exploited. Typical government economic engineering fail.

And like a standard Laborfail they realized the free batts were far more popular than originally anticipated. Who woulda thunk people like free s***. ALP without notice cut the scheme short after killing 3 young men and leaving a trail of bankrupt businesses behind. Classic Laborfail.
09:44pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Vash
3897 posts

er, a free market doesn't bring a country out of a recession / depression. to do that you need stimulus, or what you call, a "bubble" to get things flowing again.
Labor were praised by many an economist internationally for what they did during the GFC.

The ALP had nothing to do with those deaths, it was the money hungry businesses employing inexperienced individuals. Not easy to regulate without further expense.

Also,

We really must talk about the Howard and Costello economic disaster
From about the 20th-ranked economy in 1982, Australia had risen by 1996 to sixth in the world — behind only the United Arab Emirates, Norway, Singapore, Japan and the United States.

That’s measured by the variables: income, growth, wealth, jobs, inflation, interest rates, taxes, economic freedom and credit ratings.

By 2007, however, at the end of the wasted Howard years, Australia had slipped back in the rankings to 10th place.

The second serious failure was failing to invest in infrastructure needed for future development. The funds were certainly available, especially as the mining boom accelerated.
http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/we-really-must-talk-about-the-howard-and-costello-economic-disaster,5686
10:06pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15040 posts

A market responds organically. When the government artificially creates bubbles then information is not symmetrical and the situation will be exploited.


What a load of dribble. "Organically" and "symmetrical". Get over it, the market was given a load of demand and it responded. Some bad companies popped up and exploited the crap out of it and killed some people. A free market did that, not a government.

It wasn't free. I pay taxes, some of those taxes came back to me in the form of insulation for my home. I'd like to think you helped pay for that Infi, thanks for helping a brother out, I know you love helping others out particularly if you get nothing for it.

So don't give me that 'free' s***, a government is paid taxes to provide for the people in a large range of areas, the labor government provided.

Also what do you have to say about Backflip Tony (he does that A LOT) and his crusade against the ABC given his previous comments about media? Let me guess it will be something along the lines of the ABC suddenly got bad when Liberal came into power and needs to be impartial, it's about as impartial as it gets. It was fine according to Tony as little as 2 years ago. I doubt they have changed so much in that time.
10:21pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21122 posts
er, a free market doesn't bring a country out of a recession / depression. to do that you need stimulus, or what you call, a "bubble" to get things flowing again.


if that was the case then US, Europe and Japan would have all been out of recession quite quickly due to the ENORMOUS amounts of stimulus applied. US Fed is still buying $65b/mth of bonds 5 years after the GFC, Japan has 200% GDP Public Debt, many of europe's countries teeter on default from public debt. Stimulus does not work.

Iceland on the other hand let its banks default and is now doing fine. Wow hey. No bailout needed, no stimulus needed.
10:21pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21123 posts
Some bad companies popped up and exploited the crap out of it and killed some people.


you know there were insulation installers before the pink batts debacle doing jobs which people paid for... with their own money... because they knew the value of insulation. those installers had trained staff and ISO quality systems in place. Then the Labor brainfart of giving away free insulation creates a bubble for a whole bunch of Johnny come lately 2 bit shonks comes along. You think that is normal free market with no government involvement. WOW.

It wasn't free. I pay taxes, some of those taxes came back to me in the form of insulation for my home.


it was free, you just tell yourself that so you don't feel like you are suckling the govt tit. Those taxes could have beebn spent on something worthwhile - like a study into the ill health effects of wind farms, or even just more hospital funding to compensate the Qld govt for all of the funding Labor retrospectively ripped out of the Qld budget.

Also what do you have to say about Backflip Tony (he does that A LOT) and his crusade against the ABC given his previous comments about media? Let me guess it will be something along the lines of the ABC suddenly got bad when Liberal came into power and needs to be impartial, it's about as impartial as it gets. It was fine according to Tony as little as 2 years ago. I doubt they have changed so much in that time.


The Libs have been aware of the ABCs inner city hipsters since before 2010. You make this sound like a new concept. Tony can use whatever spin he wants from year to year, it doesn't change the clear bias the ABC holds against the Coalition. How many ABC presenters have run as Lib candidates, or even worked as Lib staffers? Zilch as far as I am aware. ALP candidates and staffers abound in the ABC. 75% of ABC staff vote either Green or ALP. Cmon....
10:32pm 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1249 posts
How many ABC presenters have run as Lib candidates, or even worked as Lib staffers? Zilch as far as I am aware.


Woops...


A number of former journalists and presenters have moved from positions at the corporation to politics.[72] State and federal Labor MPs Bob Carr,[73] Alan Carpenter,[74] Clare Martin,[75] Mary Delahunty,[76] and Maxine McKew,[77] as well as the Liberal Party's Pru Goward,[78] Rob Messenger,[72] Peter Collins,[72] and Eoin Cameron,[79] and Scott Emerson all held, or hold, positions at the ABC. Research undertaken by the broadcaster in 2007 indicated that out of a total of 19 former employees moving into party political positions, 10 have joined the Labor Party, and 9 the Liberal Party.[80]
source
10:38pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15042 posts

it was free, you just tell yourself that so you don't feel like you are suckling the govt tit. Those taxes could have beebn spent on something worthwhile - like a study into the ill health effects of wind farms


AHahh I knew you where a troll! Thanks for the confirmation.
10:44pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21124 posts
Woops...


I am aware of that. Aunty ABC is a renowned breeding ground for politics, I am speaking of current employees. It's just a shame that such a blatant left-wing staff have has been actively recruited.

AHahh I knew you where a troll! Thanks for the confirmation.


it was sarcasm, my actual point came directly after the part you selectively quoted.
10:49pm 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1250 posts
Zilch as far as I am aware.
I am aware of that.


Get your abbott on y0.

So since 2007 when the report into former employees who went into politics was published, the ABC has become the voice of socialism? Yeah doubt it.

More likely polies in power don't like being pulled up on their f*** ups.
10:55pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15043 posts
Yeah, except you don't seem to be able to conceive of the idea that the insulation was worthwhile. I don't have to run my Air Con at all since I got it, that money that would have been spent on electricity is now spending money. Money that goes to the economy and not wasted. Worthwhile.

You don't like the idea that the government provided me a great money saving option, using my taxes and yours. Thanks again buddy. You also helped pay for my Solar Panels, which has been excellent in saving me money and will continue to do so for 15 years or so.

Did you get solar or insulation or first home owners grant? Maybe that's why you're bitter about it all, you helped provide stuff for other people and got nothing in return.
10:58pm 30/01/14 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1595 posts
In completely (*cough*) unrelated news, Murdoch now running stories about TripleJ being nasty to Australians:

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/abcs-triple-j-killed-my-band-says-end-of-fashions-justin-burford/story-e6frfn09-1226814197805
11:03pm 30/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21125 posts
So since 2007 when the report into former employees who went into politics was published,


This issue is employees with known party allegiances, not employees who go of into more fertile grounds. So you've got it arse about.

Yeah, except you don't seem to be able to conceive of the idea that the insulation was worthwhile. I don't have to run my Air Con at all since I got it, that money that would have been spent on electricity is now spending money. Money that goes to the economy and not wasted. Worthwhile.


if it was such an efficient power saver then people would be willing to pay for it themselves (as some have done). the government distorted the entire insulation market for the brief period they funded it before they realised their epic failure.

You don't like the idea that the government provided me a great money saving option, using my taxes and yours. Thanks again buddy.


No problem, enjoy the bone.

Did you get solar or insulation or first home owners grant? Maybe that's why you're bitter about it all, you helped provide stuff for other people and got nothing in return.
.

I accessed the FOHG (albeit only once between my then gf and myself even though both of us were eligible). We are all equal under the law. I don't begrudge people accessing whatever benefits they can, it is the flawed government policy enabling it. Don't try and justify it though as everyone is motivated by self-interest aka greed. It's what makes the world go round.
11:08pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15044 posts
See that, Free Market in action. Hail to the free market.
11:08pm 30/01/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7135 posts
End of Fashion were s***, and I don't know how that "O Yeah" song ever became popular.
11:11pm 30/01/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1251 posts
This issue is employees with known party allegiances, not employees who go of into more fertile grounds. So you've got it arse about.
Like the Liberal party?

Journalists are compelled to vote just like everyone else. Their voting patterns are less then compelling evidence of a lack of professionalism.

I know you guys use inner city hipster as a euphemism for anyone who disagrees with you even slightly, but the ABC gets accused of bias by both sides of politics routinely.

Doesn't Abbott live on Sydney's north shore? Why is he in touch with the average schmo in Broken Hill? He just gets it from his views of Sydney harbor?

These Labor party hacks just finished exposing massive corruption in the Union movement, seems like a pretty major own goal for the voice piece of the greens/labor.
11:19pm 30/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
941 posts

Yeah, except you don't seem to be able to conceive of the idea that the insulation was worthwhile. I don't have to run my Air Con at all since I got it, that money that would have been spent on electricity is now spending money. Money that goes to the economy and not wasted. Worthwhile.

You don't like the idea that the government provided me a great money saving option, using my taxes and yours. Thanks again buddy. You also helped pay for my Solar Panels, which has been excellent in saving me money and will continue to do so for 15 years or so.


more importantly it great for the environment.

These Labor party hacks just finished exposing massive corruption in the Union movement, seems like a pretty major own goal for the voice piece of the greens/labor.


Labor and greens are not in coalition. Thats the liberals and the nationals. The greens did a deal to abolish the debt ceiling. That was working with the liberals to get it done. So when you say "inner city hipster" you are mostly talking green. The greens are the 3rd largest party in Aust. But compared to LIB and Lab they are small. To say the ABC is made up of "inner city hipsters" (ie. green voters) is silly. Its more like academics, intellectuals and rational urbane types however as its been pointed out well traveled individuals with wide ranging experience.

I can tell you who isnt at the ABC. Douchebag racists, bogans, people who have never left their small towns or their small town views behind or overt fanatics from any side of the voting spectrum. Which is why its popular for the masses to rag on the ABC for not being like them. S*** like this was highlighted by the ABC's vote compass about Australians:

- None of Australia's key political leaders rate any higher than 4 out of 10. That's on matters of trust and competence.(thats Tones)
- The richer a respondent is, the more important they think the economy is.
- Gay marriage has majority support. Fifty-two per cent of people support gay marriage, compared to 36 per cent who believe marriage should only be between a man and a woman (but still we hear how its a "inner city hipster thing")
- The further respondents live from the inner city, the more likely they are to support turning back asylum seekers' boats.
- 61 per cent of Australians want the Government to do more to tackle climate change. More than three-quarters of Labor and Greens supporters want greater action on climate change, but Coalition voters are more evenly split. Women and younger voters feel most strongly about the need for more action. Less than one-fifth of people think it should do less. (but still the Libs will roll on out their denials and try to ruin any meaningful action on climate change)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-06/21-things-vote-compass-revealed-federal-election/4939224

as for the JJJ thing what a lot of horse wallop. Some band havign a QQ at some percieved lack of support from JJJ? Here is the clip of the single that apparently JJJ snubbed:



Its pretty bad. Or very average if you want to be nice about it. Soon as the singer was like "whoa O Oooooo!" i was just laughing at what a hack he is. But here is what the band members said about the bad ol ABC and JJJ:

Burford said the station's once-supportive music director Richard Kingsmill went off End of Fashion after initially supporting the band, which made No. 8 in the Triple J Hottest 100 in 2005 with O Yeah.

On his Facebook page Burford said "Triple J ended the career path of End of Fashion, no question."

"A band that was fully supported by the station, earning a top ten place in a Hottest 100, was dropped like a sack of hot potatoes upon the second album's release. Our lead single, Fussy was even openly derided on air by Richard Kingsmill as just another pop release'."


Or maybe its just that their new songs sucked? After watching that clip it seems the most logical. Also if you are relying on JJJ airplay to inflate your band you are doing it wrong. Its not JJJ's job to be their manager and PR squad. How about going out and doing gigs and reaching the audience and making a name for yourself. If they really are that excellent (as they seem to think they are) then it should be easy for people to recognize the amazing talent?

No it looks like an average band got lucky with some great support from JJJ and wasted it and now that JJJ has turned their attention to the new up and coming bands the old average band is realizing that they never "had it" but wont admit it. Its all JJJs fault!!! lolz
11:55pm 30/01/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3403 posts
if that was the case then US, Europe and Japan would have all been out of recession quite quickly due to the ENORMOUS amounts of stimulus applied. US Fed is still buying $65b/mth of bonds 5 years after the GFC, Japan has 200% GDP Public Debt, many of europe's countries teeter on default from public debt. Stimulus does not work.
I love it.

Leading economists say Labor did an excellent job, infi says they're wrong. Those experts must feel pretty foolish spending all their time monitoring and studying world economics when they could have just asked infi.
12:47am 31/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21128 posts

you be the judge... don't listen to the economists. Are US Japan and Europe still in the doldrums? Why hasn't stimulus solved all their woes? There are plenty of economists who think the stimulus is flawed. Put 10 economists in a room and you will get 11 opinions.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/economists-divided-on-stimulus-claims/story-fnhi8df6-1226695169829

first hit in google.


12:52am 31/01/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3404 posts
Yeah I dunno, a known biased right wing publication or economists from other countries that have no local political allegiances.

US spend most of their money on the millitary, they also have very poor social safety nets and give trillions to rich multi-nationals that pay very little tax. Japan faced a much bigger fall than Australia did and spent their money in very different ways. Didn't most of Europe go the route of austerity? How did that work out for them?

It's quite possible that things are far more complex than you understand, I'll stick with the opinions of people who know what they are talking about over people who come to dead certain conclusions with only the most passing of knowledge on a subject, weighted heavily with their myopic views.
01:21am 31/01/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21129 posts
Didn't most of Europe go the route of austerity?


After they went broke on stimulus.... You stick with Paul Krugman and co. They are doing a great job printing money in every major western economy.
01:27am 31/01/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13451 posts
this is off topic, but I think the australian stimulus looked good for the typical punter who has no idea how their dollar is faring in other markets. I think it was a way of making the masses feel like crisis was averted, and they'll be paying for the actual cost of that slowly but surely over a longer period of time. maybe they won't even notice the cost that much, or even think it has anything to do with the gfc. so depending on your perspective it was a success. not to mention there were other substantial factors helping the australian economy along at the time as well

if you're spending your australian dollar on the global market though, you'll realise the stimulus was bollocks. and unless you don't need to import a single thing, the global market should be important to you
01:48am 31/01/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37601 posts
I am aware of that. Aunty ABC is a renowned breeding ground for politics, I am speaking of current employees. It's just a shame that such a blatant left-wing staff have has been actively recruited.
Out of morbid curiosity, what are some non-"left wing" stories are there that you think the ABC are not covering, or not covering well?

I feel like there's plenty of coverage of stuff that should give "right wing" people something to read (I have to use quotes around "left/right wing" because otherwise I have to launch into a diatribe about how boring it is to attempt to divide the universe into two parts - one that people use as a synonym for "things I agree with" and the other being "things I disagree with).

e.g., this recent article about the sale of Qantas. I mean it doesn't go into a frothy sense of righteousness about capitalism or freeing companies from dated legislation or whatever; it simply presents a bunch of facts that the reader can then use to hopefully come up with an informed opinion.

Or am I completely misunderstanding how you are using "left/right wing"?

I don't read any of their analysis or opinion so maybe you just mean that section. Most analysis/opinion seems to be not worth reading or done just to incite clicks so I don't really know why anyone would bother.
04:53am 31/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2297 posts
Infi, you are aware that there have been previous studies on the wind turbine syndrome and all have produced results that say there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that there are health effects for living near them?

Oh, but Tony wants it done, so it's gotta be good because the previous research was obviously some sort of left wing agenda funded by bias scientists.

You talk about ALP being the big spending wasteful government, but still stick up for LNP when this research has already produced solid evidence for there being not health effects from wind power, as not wasteful because if you do, you mustn't like science. Which is funny considering Tony is a failed Jesuit and doesn't really think climate change is a big deal.
06:45am 31/01/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1220 posts

ABC and Fairfax recently did the expose on Union corruption. I bet the Murdoch press was spewing they didn't get their hands on that.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/01/what-do-australians-think-about-the-abc/

Polls are showing a lot of people think ABC is doing a good job of news reporting. Maybe they need more Bolt readers in their sample?


07:52am 31/01/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37308 posts
this is off topic, but I think the australian stimulus looked good for the typical punter who has no idea how their dollar is faring in other markets. I think it was a way of making the masses feel like crisis was averted, and they'll be paying for the actual cost of that slowly but surely over a longer period of time. maybe they won't even notice the cost that much, or even think it has anything to do with the gfc. so depending on your perspective it was a success. not to mention there were other substantial factors helping the australian economy along at the time as well ,


the simulus packages were awesome, i took advantage of all of them to help my country (through a tough time).
08:22am 31/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15048 posts
ABC Kids is also THE BEST channel on free-to-air TV. It is the only free-to-air that I let my kids watch, and is about the only free-to-air TV that gets played in the house. SBS gets an honorable mention too. The rest are just trash, particularly 7,9 and 10.

The ABC network seems to be screaming along just fine, I don't get the impression they are wasting money at all. It's funny Tonez calls for an efficiency review right after crying about the ABC nto supporting his views. Trying to intimidate the media there Tonez, just like you said it shouldn't be done? Backflip much?

Also, from my Facebook feed and other forums around the place people are not impressed with his attack on the ABC.
08:27am 31/01/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37310 posts
the digital abc channels suite are AWESOME. great for kids, great for adults later at nite, plus they that 24/7 news channel that no one watches.

they are definately doing tv right.
08:34am 31/01/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2299 posts

the digital abc channels suite are AWESOME. great for kids, great for adults later at nite, plus they that 24/7 news channel that no one watches.

they are definately doing tv right.

The only tv channel I watch is ABCnews 24. It's the only channel worth a damn I reckon.

ABC and Fairfax recently did the expose on Union corruption. I bet the Murdoch press was spewing they didn't get their hands on that.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/01/what-do-australians-think-about-the-abc/

Polls are showing a lot of people think ABC is doing a good job of news reporting. Maybe they need more Bolt readers in their sample?



People, particularly the right, are saying the ABC is full of left wing hippies because it doesn't support their view and because their lord and saviour Abbott is having a cry about it. I recall ABC reporting negative actions of Gillard and Rudd, just like they do now with the current government. They just report. Reporting all news about the incumbent government is important. Be it positive or negative. It just happens that Abbott really hasn't done anything since coming in and he's really a clueless f***head.
08:47am 31/01/14 Permalink
Azaria
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory
1219 posts
We have been down this road before. Only last time Howard got KPMG to do an external audit and it was found the ABC was efficient but underfunded. Then they tried stacking the ABC board but that still didn't work as the ABC is bound to an editorial charter so the board really has no influence on the output or 'perceived biases' of stories.

Then at the end of last year, the ABC announced it would do 4 external audits a year, all of which would be published for others to view and be transparent in an attempt to stave off it being involved in a politicised debate. This wasn't enough now, so instead of having a recognised authority like KPMG audit the company we have a government department running the audit headed by an ex seven-west CFO. Anyway, the terms of reference look like a joke written by an intern in the space of 30mins. Much like the NBNCo review.

Anyone who actually knows people who work at ABC or SBS would already be aware of the stupid amount of unpaid overtime and limited resources that a lot of their journalism gets driven by and would be proud of the level of output that still gets produced.

I have no problem with the ABC being audited, but it should be done in an impartial and fair manner and not on the back of trying to give them a backhanded slap for not running a specific agenda like the majority of Australian news services.
08:56am 31/01/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15051 posts
Yet people like Infi wont accept that, no they will side with the Coalition on ANYTHING.
09:10am 31/01/14 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
11325 posts
Also, from my Facebook feed and other forums around the place people are not impressed with his attack on the ABC.
And rightfully so. Calling the ABC Un-Australian is like saying anyone from Australia isn't Australian, its a baseless attack on something that doesn't conform to your views/agenda. It is clear that Abbott isn't liking the ABC because they are actually doing their job and reporting on Australian politics, unlike news.com.au which is keeping up on the latest Bieber action that everyone oh so needs to hear.

He's already had his comment thrown back thanks to previous comments when NOT in standing government showing he is biased and loves the media when not on the spotlight. To have a prime minister like that is just ridiculous, and certainly helps cement our comedic value across the globe.
09:26am 31/01/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8238 posts
I wish that Australian sentiment could be read from fb comments right now, but this informal internet poll had tens of thousands of votes and the majority voting in support of Abbott.
09:36am 31/01/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6681 posts
Meanwhile in more serious news it seems we are free marketing the crap out of the Aussie Property Market by selling to the Chinese. Looks like your grandkids will be renting a propert off of an Mainland Chinese Landlord or living in a dumpster.

So while we wail and gnash teeth about the ABC, gay marriage and boat people we have a rent-seeker economy going down the s****** and a Foreign Invest Review Board that is a toothless tiger.

Bait and switch much?

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2014/01/the-chinese-want-your-land-not-the-house/
10:00am 31/01/14 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2313 posts
Looks pretty obvious this has something to do with News Corp and Murdoch, if the Abbott Government successfully cuts out the ABC so News Corp wins its contracts - that's a pretty big f*****g fail.
07:33pm 31/01/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10962 posts
Stan Grants, former ABC staffer now at CNN has nailed it.

Stan Grant: I think there is a need for conversation about the ABC - what it represents, the standards of its reporting, its editorial decisions….

I remember when I was a kid growing up in the country and the ABC was our broadcaster. In fact it was the only one. And Mum and Dad would watch Bellbird. I might be showing my age but Bellbird was like the Country Practice of its day. They'd watch that before the News. There was This Day Tonight, there were a whole range of programs and if you watched the ABC, my parents who were, you know, my dad was a saw-miller, grew up in the country, pretty ordinary working family, they could watch the ABC and could get something out of it.

They don't watch now. Because they feel alienated and isolated and they feel as if they're being talked down to and they feel as if there is smugness about the ABC.

…I love the ABC and I'll just say I loved working there. And I have a lot of good friends who work there, my wife works there. But when I turn on [the ABC] - I've said this to my wife before - do I need to hear another story about gay marriage or, you know, AIDS or indigenous issues or whatever? Constantly? All the time?

What about the issues that affect the rest of Australia and the broader range of people - my parents and ordinary working people? I don't know that they are represented to the extent that they should be at the ABC. And I don't know [that] the ABC's employment policies, the people that it recruits, represent that broad spectrum of Australia either.

Stan Grant

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/media-watch-dog-nancys-back/story-fnkqo7i5-1226815116471

09:29pm 31/01/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13457 posts
he hasn't been at cnn for a few years - and I don't think he has nailed it, at least in the context of this thread - not covering as broad a spectrum as you should does not equal taking the side of everyone but australia. but that's no fault with stan grant's comments - just your application of them

ironically, his job at abc used to be speaking about issues that effect indigenous people
11:25pm 31/01/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
954 posts

To all respect to Stan Grants and the trip down memory lane but how things were done in the past might not be the best way of doing things today.

Maybe years ago, and i mean half a century ago, Australia was all about the guy on the land and riding on the sheep back and all that but today its all about the city and service industry. The demographic of where Australians are employed has majorly shifted. The "braod range" of people Stan Grants talks about - mom and pop in the little rural town dont exist today so much.

So the ABC, to remain relevant, caters to the population. It still has those landline and radio national and such shows but if they were to focus on mom and pops in the outback like it was 1969 much more you would have people complaining about how the ABC is behind the times and not relevant.

You cant please everyone but you can try to cater to the majority while ensuring the minority gets a piece. Something like 99% of people have some kind of internet. People are not relying on that one show or one channel or one paper these day.

Putting nostalgia goggles on and talking about modern day issues like they are not important is just silly. Just like saying this:

…I love the ABC and I'll just say I loved working there. And I have a lot of good friends who work there, my wife works there. But when I turn on [the ABC] - I've said this to my wife before - do I need to hear another story about gay marriage or, you know, AIDS or indigenous issues or whatever? Constantly? All the time?


is silly especially after vote compass revealed:

- Gay marriage has majority support. Fifty-two per cent of people support gay marriage, compared to 36 per cent who believe marriage should only be between a man and a woman (but still we hear how its a "inner city hipster thing")
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-06/21-things-vote-compass-revealed-federal-election/4939224

So yes. We do "need to" have a conversation in the community about major issues. Especially ones that have majority support but for some reason are being held back. Thats the job of the National Broadcaster to facilitate that discussion. Bit better then have full page spreads about what new Justin Bieber antics occurred today
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/how-justin-bieber-became-a-showbiz-brat-got-arrested-and-went-off-the-rails/story-fn907478-1226810043286

Maybe Stan Grants is just a Bieber fan?


01:23am 01/02/14 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
3406 posts
They don't watch now. Because they feel alienated and isolated and they feel as if they're being talked down to and they feel as if there is smugness about the ABC.
Are his parents even still alive let alone free from senility?

Also it's super surprising to see The Australian be supportive of Tony Abbott doing what their boss has paid him to do. You should keep posting articles by them because they are relative and informative and not at all completely tainted by bias.
01:38am 01/02/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11468 posts
Landline is a great show.
01:58am 01/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1552 posts
Landline is a great show.
Agree
03:12am 01/02/14 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
37602 posts
The irony of someone at CNN complaining about repetitive coverage and telling other people how to do news
06:38am 01/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1221 posts

Why can't the ABC cheerlead the Liberals greenlighting the great barrier reef?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-29/reef-board-members-in-conflict-of-interest-claims/5052558

Why can't they see this is a positive thing for Australia?

I encourage everyone here to take a diving trip if you haven't done so already as it won't be around for long.


11:05am 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15056 posts
Tony Abbot:


Speaking live to SBS from Penrith football stadium, Tony Abbott told SBS that public broadcasters will not see any cuts under an Abbott government.

"No cuts to education, no cuts to health, no change to pensions, no change to the GST and no cuts to the ABC or SBS."


That just prior to the election.

To fair he hasn't done any cuts to the ABC. Since he has said no cuts to ABC or SBS then I guess the efficiency review is for 1 of 3 reasons.

1. To give ABC more money, since they spend it most excellently already.
2. To find more efficiencies in the ABC so that they can spend their currently allocated money even better.
3. To figure out how much it is worth for when they try to sell it.

My bet it is number 3, or that Tony Lied and is doing yet another Backflip.
12:10pm 01/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2303 posts
Tony Abbot:



That just prior to the election.

To fair he hasn't done any cuts to the ABC. Since he has said no cuts to ABC or SBS then I guess the efficiency review is for 1 of 3 reasons.

1. To give ABC more money, since they spend it most excellently already.
2. To find more efficiencies in the ABC so that they can spend their currently allocated money even better.
3. To figure out how much it is worth for when they try to sell it.

My bet it is number 3, or that Tony Lied and is doing yet another Backflip.

I reckon it will be number 3. LNP economic plans have always been to privatise everything. I hope to christ that they don't sell off the ABC though. It's a beacon of awesomeness that is Australia.
12:22pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8240 posts
To fair he hasn't done any cuts to the ABC.
Abbott to kill ABC’s Australia Network
12:33pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15059 posts
O, well. I guess he is just a liar then, plain and simple.
01:15pm 01/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
955 posts
The board of the agency charged with protecting the Great Barrier Reef has failed to adopt its own experts' recommendation that it ban port developments which threaten the reef.

Two of the five board members have links to members of the Obeid family and are coming under scrutiny from environmentalists, who allege a conflict of interest because of their links to resource companies.

Former Townsville mayor Tony Mooney earns $250,000 a year working for a coal company, and Queensland's top public servant Jon Grayson owns a one-sixth shareholding in a company called Gasfields Water and Waste Services.

Both men helped set the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's position on ports at a number of board meetings.

According to documents obtained under freedom of information laws, the GBRMPA board met in Gladstone in March last year and considered a crucial document that would set its position on the development of ports to service Queensland's mining boom.


that is just shameful - They are supposed to be protecting one of Australias wonders but they are selling it down the river. Where is the oversight to see that sort of conflict of interest doesnt happen?

What is there to discuss? Its like if they were on the environment protection board for forests and they own wood chipping mills.

Stop the dumping proposal and Throw those guys off the board and see they never get another job in the industry. and go round to their houses backyard and take a massive dump in their swimming pool. See how they like it. Why that kind of behaviour isn't illegal, like insider trading or f*****g with the stock market, i will never know. ITs just as malicious and underhanded.

Where would we be without the greens and environment protection mobs? On a dirty stripped mined and deforested barren rock by now is where.
01:28pm 01/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1713 posts
02:20pm 01/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
536 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Reposted nuked content
Send Private Message
02:38pm 01/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
961 posts
Brool maybe before you come back after a ban for trolling you read all the posts in the thread before you post. IF you had you would see that:

Labor was given a free ride by the ABC when they were in power despite f*** up after f*** up, but all of a sudden its in the "public interest" for baseless accusations(which have now been proven false, what a surprised) to be reported by the ABC.


is crap. Even tones was supporting the hard times the ABC gave labour back in the day before he stepped into the spotlight. Which is the whole point.

Somehow you miss that and after a 3 day ban walk back in and slip right back into awkward ignorant blinkered ignoring-any-evidence-that-proves-you-wrong poster mode.

I would bet 1 gets you 20 that is the behaviour the mods don't like. Has nothing to do with what side of the ideological border your opinion falls on.
02:48pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15060 posts
It's because he and people like him are not looking at the facts, they are patting each other the backs saying how great Liberal is.

It is like the kids at a school all picking on the scape goat because that is what they do to feel together.
03:48pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37327 posts
i just played sovereign borders and let 3 boats in, because im not a c***.

http://www.theskewer.com.au/2013/11/operation-sovereign-borders-game/
03:52pm 01/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
798 posts
Out of morbid curiosity, what are some non-"left wing" stories are there that you think the ABC are not covering, or not covering well?


It's not so much about the stories, but how they are reported and presented. EG; The ABC often presents favorable reporting on the carbon tax despite the majority of Australians not wanting it + the fact that it will do absolutely nothing to stop climate change or even hinder it a tiny bit let alone reduce Australias carbon emissions by any substantial amount. But they follow the left-wing Labor/Green rope line and prop it up pretending it's going to save the world.


Also regarding boats, i have to share this youtube video which is just absolutely hilarious. It's Sarah Hanson Young of the Greens at a senate committee regarding boats yesterday, trying to question people from the immigration department as to why they work with tv shows that apparently "show the coastguards" the punchline is that she doesn't realize Sea Patrol - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Patrol is a fictional TV show and she can't wrap her head around the fact.

Absolute comedy Gold - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJ7j86MyWw
03:53pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1553 posts
^ you're an idiot, there is a real customs show on tv which has shown customs seizing boats to search in episodes. Knob.
04:10pm 01/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21131 posts

i just played sovereign borders and let 3 boats in, because im not a c***.

http://www.theskewer.com.au/2013/11/operation-sovereign-borders-game/


you must suck at Papers Please.
04:25pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37328 posts
haha, i am not very good at papers please :(
05:16pm 01/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
799 posts
^ you're an idiot, there is a real customs show on tv which has shown customs seizing boats to search in episodes. Knob.


Source? Link? As stated in the video, Customs/Immigration only have an agreement with Channel 7 for 1 show based on Customs and Border Security to which they acknowledged which doesn't show anything to do with asylum seekers or boat people.

Sea Patrol does and Sarah Hanson Young actually thought Sea Patrol was a nonfictional tv program which is why the guys from immigration were baffled.

Absolute comedy gold. The #SeaPatrol twitter tag is erupting with lulz, I can't believe people actually vote for the Greens...
05:28pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8241 posts
Tony Abbott threatens to deport asylum seekers who swear

Yup, the conservative christians are in charge.
05:48pm 01/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2305 posts
Tony Abbott threatens to deport asylum seekers who swear

Yup, the conservative christians are in charge.

I'm glad Tones is our leader. His clear cut approach must be getting all kinds of respect for us on the international stage!

I reckon if the ALP hadn't tried to put an internet filter on, he would be doing one. In lieu of it, he's just getting s***** at media (ABC traitors) who don't report the news he likes. I love how the ABC wasn't left wing inner city hipsters when they were critical of Labor when they were in power (I wouldn't say they were critical at all, they just report the news), but as soon as LNP are in power, all right wingers are up in arms because their glorious party is made to look bad. You LNP supporters must live a wonderful life, believing whatever you want and completely ignoring the fact that the ABC just reports the news and doesn't have any bias.

But I guess when your understanding of fair and unbias media comes from people like Andrew Bolt and the Murdoch empire, it's kinda hard to get a dose of reality.
06:03pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15061 posts
They do have a little bias, they choose some pretty funny photos of our politicians. I swear they make Campbell look like a monkey on purpose.


The amusing thing is, if there is even bias (which I think there is) it isn't really that much. Certainly nothing to be worried about. The kind of bias you need to worry about is went front page articles scream 'kick em out'. IF the ABC did that, then sure, there would be problems.

The fact is, they don't. I read the ABC news daily as it is by far the best Australian news source. There have been PLENTY of times when they report on something they also include the source documents if they are available so you can check it out yourself.

The Fact check section smashed BOTH sides for fibbing during election time, they also checked up on ol mate Clive.

It's a pitty this current government lie, you can't trust a word they say. How can you supporters of the Coalition trust in what Tonez says? He says one thing then does the opposite later.
06:39pm 01/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
800 posts
Tony Abbott threatens to deport asylum seekers who swear

Yup, the conservative christians are in charge.


Nice beat up title. That 1 thing in a long list of things in a new code of conduct. If these asylum shoppers are so "poor" "desperate" and "innocent" they should be on their best behaviour, not rioting, assaulting people, spitting, swearing and all the other anti-social crap they do while in detention.

I wonder how the rebuilding of the Nauru detention centre is going after they burnt it to the ground?
06:44pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15063 posts

they should be on their best behaviour, not rioting, assaulting people, spitting, swearing and all the other anti-social crap they do while in detention.


They should be held to the exact same standard as the rest of the Australian population, no more no less. Anything else is racism.

Also, I would guess if you got a similar number of random Australians, put them in Nauru detention center with the same treatment and contempt of certain staff, a similar thing would happen. They were treated pretty badly and the conditions of the place drew International Criticism
In particular:

Nauro Detention Centres:


DO NOT prove safe and humane conditions of treatment in detention.


But you don't care. You don't give a s*** that human beings were treated worse than what we are legally obliged to treat animals. You don't care, you just want 'safe boarders'. Safe from nothing in particular.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 18:55:37 01/Feb/14
06:46pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8242 posts
Brool has already admitted that he's a troll, you don't have to answer. His poor argument that bad parts of the list are okay because of other parts is almost certainly done on purpose to get a rise out of people.
07:56pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13460 posts
They should be held to the exact same standard as the rest of the Australian population, no more no less. Anything else is racism.

I don't think that's true
there's a lot of assumed or automatic leeway given to citizens of a country that's not afforded to people wanting to migrate. you'll find that all over the world and it's often taken for granted until you try to migrate yourself and realise. I more or less get a free pass migrating from australia to the UK due to my descendancy but while dealing with the UKBA and reading their documentation and rules and regs. for the usual kind of full immigration it's quite apparent that they expect you to be on your best behaviour until you're a citizen. most stuff reads like "1 strike and you're out" kind of thing

personally I don't have a problem with the principle of the message in that headline, although I'd rather it was delivered with less idiotically ambiguous language than 'disturb/irritate people', and by someone who isn't a huge religiously-motivated retard like tony abbott
08:02pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13461 posts
It's not so much about the stories, but how they are reported and presented. EG; The ABC often presents favorable reporting on the carbon tax despite the majority of Australians not wanting it + the fact that it will do absolutely nothing to stop climate change or even hinder it a tiny bit let alone reduce Australias carbon emissions by any substantial amount. But they follow the left-wing Labor/Green rope line and prop it up pretending it's going to save the world.


once again it's like you don't understand what journalism is
it's not their job to determine what they think the majority of australians want, and then adjust their news to reflect that
08:12pm 01/02/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11474 posts
10:19pm 01/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15071 posts
The government said this about ABC efficiency review:


"The objective is to ensure ABC and SBS fulfil their charter responsibilities at least cost to the community, and keep pace with rapidly changing practices in the broadcasting sector,"


"Keep pace with rapidly changing practices in the broadcasting sector."

ABC is so far ahead of the game in this regard, the comment is absurd.
02:36pm 02/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10967 posts
http://images.smh.com.au/2014/02/01/5125050/SG_729_ABC-620x349.jpg


n an email obtained by Fairfax Media, Mr Morris instructed senior staff, including director of news Kate Torney and ABC News 24 editor Tony Hill, to provide advice to their teams about reporting on ''incidents at sea''.
Advertisement
Mr Morris said staff should ensure that the reports ''stick to the basics''.
''As you know, we currently have a set of claims by asylum seekers our editorial teams are continuing to work hard to get an accurate account of and to verify,'' he wrote.
''During this process all our output should reflect the basic facts before us … we don't need to interpret them beyond what we know, nor should be [sic] editorialising or seeking to add adjectives or any flourish.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/abc-boss-gaven-morris-responds-to-news-criticism-with-edict-to-staff-20140201-31u5b.html#ixzz2s8KHD6n5


Fixing problems that dont exist ?

Change is coming to Our ABC.
Yes we can.

02:52pm 02/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8244 posts
When the anti-science & fingers-in-their-ears-ideological nuts of ausgamers are up in arms, you know that the ABC is probably doing something right.
04:34pm 02/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1716 posts
07:42pm 02/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15073 posts
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!


For about 4 hours Tony Abbot had this on his twitter feed:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uS4qDTKlw4g/Uu44k_9Sg4I/AAAAAAAAIqc/BTusL47aNPw/s1600/AbbottVidOfAchievementsBlockedByYouTubeForDeceptiveContent.png

Turn's out Tony Abbots Youtube account was also suspended. What a massive Fail of a Prime Minister, I think he might actually be worse than William McMahon. Fail after fail after fail.

Sadly, Tony will, for the rest of his life no matter what, receive $450,000 for dong absolutely nothing if he wants.
08:31am 03/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2312 posts

Poor Joe Hockey is upset too. It appears the ABC is out of control, by reporting the facts. The LNP hate facts it would seem. They can't get a break. It's all cool until they are in power. Then they just complain about ABC because there is not Labor to complain about.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-03/joe-hockey-reveals-phone-calls-to-abc-managing-director/5235024

Really, LNP are a bunch of babies.


04:26pm 03/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19190 posts
i think that imagine vash posted pretty much says it all really

there isn't much infi and the rest of that can say to come back from that one
04:34pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Phooks
Brisbane, Queensland
2755 posts
HurricaneJim it's actually a lot higher than that IIRC, the pollies have been raising their salaries unanimously over the last few years, with channel 9 doing an investigation finding they were supposed to reduce their salaries after a suss bill was passed in 2009
04:43pm 03/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2313 posts
i think that imagine vash posted pretty much says it all really

there isn't much infi and the rest of that can say to come back from that one

Cognitive dissonance is a beautiful thing.

I don't think LNP have anything positive or any real policies beyond s*** talking ALP all the time they were in power (STOP REKLESS SPENDIN PLZ) and now they are s***** at ABC for doing their jobs and because they are in power and have no real policies or direction they just take it out on ABC. Beyond boat people and ending the reckless ALP spending (which IIRC, ALP investments got us through the GFC and were going to give us awesome internet and more funding to schools, which is a bad thing how?) LNP have nothing. Absolutely f*** all.

That wont stop infi and the right wingers though. They will just believe whatever they want and if it doesn't suit them, it's obviously some sort of left wing bias or inner city hipster coalition at work.
05:16pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15078 posts
Infi will say that you have to pay the politicians a high wage otherwise they'll go to the public sector. I call bulls*** on that though.
05:41pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Tiny
Brisbane, Queensland
3406 posts
When are you people going to stop talking about F*cking politics all day!
05:53pm 03/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
978 posts
Private sector toll. Which i also call bulls*** because you really don't want someone running the country only because of how high the pay is. When democracy was founded the philosophers and thinkers didn't come up with the system because they were on a great higher pay grade. They did it because they wanted to see man achieve excellence. They did it because they wanted to raise humanity up.

But Carson the LNP does have an agenda - its to get rid of the deficit remember? And lucky its easy to do! 1st - we sell off everything and make it private. Next we sack everyone in government. Hell we get rid of government altogether so we dont need to pay tax - because those pesky taxes just go to helping poor people anyway. Finally we let the corporations run everything because they will do a better job and be better for everyone. That is so long as you are rich and work with or for the corporations.

If you do not then you get to live in the slums which surround the walled compounds of your betters.

Corporate police. Corporate Courts. Corporate health. Schooling. Utilities. You name it we need a corporation for it. That is the LNP way.
05:53pm 03/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21140 posts
nope i don't think politicians should be paid an overly high salary. politics is a vocation. if you are doing it for the money then you're not suitable e.g. union hacks and staffers.
06:10pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
77 posts
all politicians are self-absorbed careerists whose parents were too nice to them and who went to private schools where the teachers are paid to tell them they are special and needed.

Even unions these days are self-interested institutions.

It's all a childish game, really, despite the high stakes.
08:04pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37358 posts
nope i don't think politicians should be paid an overly high salary


but they should be free to organise private sector deals using their political position for massive financial gains to make up any short comings!
08:07pm 03/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21145 posts
no that is corruption and highly illegal. look at eddie obeid or gordon nuttall or craig thompson (basically labor types) for example.
08:08pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15084 posts
Congrats Infi, there is hope for you yet.
08:14pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37359 posts
or campbell newman or santo santoro or scotty driscoll
08:27pm 03/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21146 posts
dont know why you are referring to any of those figures spook. just randomly quoting names of pollies is not a thing
08:30pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15085 posts
Just so you know there is hope for me infi, I agree with the school thing. Trying to give more automoty to schools, I really don't like how education qld works for example.
08:32pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37361 posts
santo had shares he "forgot" to declare (no doubt made a mint on them) (not even going to go into awarding contracts to mates gate)

scotty was getting loaded off his position by organising deals with his wifes business.

campbell's the same, rezoning, making sure property deals were going through.

is it true his missus family owns a heap of niteclubs in teh valley? i heard that story the other day on why hes not so keen on lockouts or earlier closing hours.

all are politicians making money from their political position, through murky business dealings.

last edited by Spook at 20:33:53 03/Feb/14
08:32pm 03/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10971 posts
ok ok settle down
Q&A is back tonight and Tony Jones is going to settle this debate.



08:39pm 03/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21147 posts
in regards to Santoro, plenty of MPs have undeclared interests they are constantly updating. In Howard's case he held a very high standard of accountability for Ministers and had to resign. Nothing criminal occurred.

In relation to Newman and Driscoll, no criminal offences have been committed. In fact you are basically working off the same smears and gossip the ALP machine works off. You need to try dealing in facts - you and the ABC can make it a resolution!

In relation to Obeid, Nuttall and Thompson, I am talking about court/tribunal findings of actual criminal and civil wrongdoing.
08:41pm 03/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1228 posts
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/blogs/blunt-instrument/somebody-call-the-waaaambulance--the-abc-has-been-mean-to-abbott-20140130-31nt0.html


I like this article.

You could cut Howard's fingers off and poke him in the eye with them, he wouldn't blink.
He wouldn't give you the bloody satisfaction of it.
John Howard might have looked like a brylcreemed super nerd but he was a hard nut who could absorb inhuman amounts of damage without flinching, because he'd learnt that to show weakness was to lose. Spectacularly.
Tony Abbott is no John Howard. His petulant waaaaaambulance call on talkback radio yesterday, whining about the ABC – not individual journalists mind you, the whole institution, thousands of hard working Australians – all of them, his puerile and disgraceful lie that they do not act in the national interest? That would have made John Howard shudder. Not because Howard loved the ABC.
No Prime Minister since Menzies has. But because Howard knew that, as soon as you start complaining, you're done. You look like a loser. You are a loser. You don't look like a bloke who's got the ticker for the hard work. Abbott disgraced himself yesterday, and he disgraced his mentor in doing it.
09:44pm 03/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21148 posts
I agree 100% with that article. Abbott should never have complained about the ABC publicly. If he is going to reform the ABC just do it, but he should never have reacted in the media.

Howard was the master.
09:57pm 03/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19192 posts
Don't communists generally control the media to print what they want?
10:37pm 03/02/14 Permalink
Vash
3900 posts
Nah keating was the master.
Howard just rode a boom and didnt invest in anything, sold everything to make the books look good. Right wingers are so short sighted.
10:38pm 03/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
983 posts
its a shame that ethical and moral wrongdoing isnt the same as breaking the law.
11:39pm 03/02/14 Permalink
dais
Brisbane, Queensland
11483 posts
His position on the ABC was raised again tonight in an interview on 7:30: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3937320.htm
12:56am 04/02/14 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
37362 posts
05:53am 04/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8250 posts
09:10pm 04/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
11107 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Blatantly hypocritical troll
Send Private Message
09:28pm 04/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10973 posts
we'll see how funny things are when The Bolt Report becomes a 60min show.

I think most of the Western World have had enough of Lefty Debt solutions and phoney Environmentalism.

The Age of Entitlement has come to an end.
Yes, We Can.
11:48pm 04/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21162 posts
I post an extract from ABC Managing Director's media statement, and quote from Paul Barry of Media Watch and get nuked. right....
11:57pm 04/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8252 posts
I post an extract from ABC Managing Director's media statement, and quote from Paul Barry of Media Watch and get nuked. right....

No you numbnut, it's because you somehow decided that criticizing Tony Abbott's statements regarding the ABC meant that everybody was "Labor Apologists", I don't think that anybody even wants to imagine what the f*** is going on in your brain for that to make sense.
12:20am 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21163 posts
If the ABC can own up to its own mistakes then the only reason left for someone to criticise Tone's comments which have been vindicated in respect of the Navy abuse story is partisanship.
12:26am 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1000 posts

While the recent Media Watch did suggest that the ABC "got it wrong" in the sense that the ABC might have "over reached" with their story on Navy abuse to refugees they did not say anything about partisanship. In fact they pointed out the real motivation for the attack on the ABC had Murdoch at its heart. Here is the Transcript from Media watch Episode 01, 3 February 2014 story called Truth, trust and treachery:

It's been week of attacks on the ABC for being un-Australian, but did ABC news get it wrong on asylum seekers?
All we have to put up with is our Dear Leader the Prime Minister telling the ABC it must be more patriotic in its reporting
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3937354.htm

The bit about over reaching:

But this is where the ABC over-reached, by essentially endorsing the allegations of Navy mistreatment on radio, TV and online throughout the day.
Because even if the police did back the asylum seekers claims, there was no way of knowing they were true...

and later in the story...

It now seems the burns occurred in a scuffle with the Navy. And were not deliberately inflicted by Navy personnel.
We believe ABC News got it wrong.
And if so ... it needs to admit it, to find out how the mistake was made, and to make sure it will not happen again.


The bit about Murdoch etc and why the Attack on the ABC (its a bit long so you could go to the above link and just watch the clip):

That aside, you have to ask if the Snowden and Navy mistreatment stories explain the current storm of criticism, and we believe they dont. Its part of a bigger game.
The ABC has come under constant attack in the past year the Murdoch press, led by The Australian and columnists in News Corps tabloids.
This has been matched by a barrage of criticism on commercial radio ...

"ANDREW BOLT: It's not only crushing diversity, crushing innovation...
2GB, The Ray Hadley Morning Show, 4th December, 2013"

"ALAN JONES: The ABC's involvement in this treason, yes that's the word...
” 2GB The Alan Jones Breakfast Show, 20th November, 2013 "

"RAY HADLEY: It has become an arm of the Labor party...
” 2GB, The Ray Hadley Morning Show, 4th December, 2013"

When the Prime Minister finally joined the chorus last week the ABCs enemies and detractors put the boot in again.

" Auntys tactical mistakes haunt it with a vengeance
The Weekend Australian, 1-2 February, 2014"

" ABCs shame as slanders continue
Daily Telegraph, 1st February, 2014"

On Friday, a long leader in the Australian called for ABC managing director Mark Scott to quit and laid into ABC staff for being a ...
"... collectivist inner-city clique of broadcasters, bloggers, latter-day Trotskyites and inked hipsters ...
The Australian, 31st January, 2014"

Singling out Fran Kelly, Mark Colvin and Barrie Cassidy, The Australian urged all ABC journalists to:

"... admit Auntys age-old values of fairness and balance are merely a pretence and that the news agenda across radio bulletins and ABC24 is driven by the Greens-Left activist complex.
The Australian, 31st January, 2014"

OK, its a fair cop. I admit the crime.
I only voted Liberal at the last election as a cover.
Now, despite what the Australian says, the vast majority of Australians seem happy with their national broadcaster.
Indeed, in June News Corps own Newspoll found that 85% of Australians believe the ABC is valuable
A similar thumbs-up comes from Essential Research, which found last March that after the High Court, the ABC is the most trusted institution in Australia
But the ABCs popularity has never stopped governments attacking it.
As ABC managing director David Hill told Sydney Morning Herald readers on Friday

"Practically every prime minister since Bob Menzies has at some stage complained that the ABC either got it wrong, or demonstrated bias in reporting a story.
Sydney Morning Herald, 31st January, 2014"

Late last year, in the hope of defusing new attacks, the ABC set up its own internal bias inquiry.
But it hasnt stemmed the tide of criticism. And David Hill predicts it wont.

"No doubt Abbotts recent comments are the first of a series of new assaults we can expect on the ABC in the coming months.
”Sydney Morning Herald, 31st January, 2014"

The first Coalition target, according to The Australian, will be the ABCs international satellite service which Rupert Murdoch has long wanted for Sky News ...

" EXCLUSIVE
ABCs Asia TV network faces axe
” The Australian, 30th January, 2014"

The next will be cuts to ABC funding in the budget in May.
Remarkably, even the Australians Dennis Shanahan declares the current attacks on the ABC are designed to provide justification for those cuts.
He means attacks by the government, of course, not the Australian.
And in the meantime, an efficiency audit of the ABC” to report in April has been announced by Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who assures the ABC he is among its strongest defenders and who seems keen to hose it all down.

"The day that everybody says that they're happy with the ABC, they don't have a complaint about it, then it's probably become a bit dull.
” ABC, 7.30, 30th January, 2014"

But the big question is: will this be the end of it?
And the answer is, No. Or not if News Corp and Andrew Bolt have their way.

"ANDREW BOLT: The ABC is just too big for a state-funded, government-beholden, media outlet. It runs an empire so vast, across so many platforms, that no private media operator is even allowed to do that.
2GB, Nights with Steve Price, 29th January, 2014"

We'll come back to that issue in another program and to the charge that ABC News Online makes life impossible for its commercial rivals.
But meanwhile lets get back to flag waving and what the ABCs job really should be. According to former boss David Hill.

"It is a great shame governments dont recognise the ABCs greatest patriotic duty is to continue to hold governments to account by the provision of independent, unbiased, and honest news to the Australian public.
”Sydney Morning Herald, 31st January, 2014"

Its hard to disagree with that. But if the ABC is to keep the trust of the Australian public it needs to nurture that balance and honesty.


So not partisanship or prejudice in favour of a particular cause. Ie. bias. As you are trying to swing it infi.

Media Watch is saying what has already been said in this very thread numerous times: its the Murdoch press on attack and tony is just their little drummer boy.
01:06am 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21164 posts
I did not attribute partisanship above to the ABC. I attributed it to the people who insist on howling at Abbott when he was in fact correct about the ABC's sloppy trigger happy culture. It is silly of Abbott to expect ABC to "barrack for the home team" but is a bit of due diligence asking too much?

ABC management have owned up to its wrongdoing albeit without addressing the organisation's larger cultural issue.
01:11am 05/02/14 Permalink
cherocha
Queensland
437 posts
There's something really dodgy about Andrew Bolt, beyond him simply being a f*****g idiot. I've never seen him utter a single negative word about the US, in any context, in any of his editorials, and I've read a metric f***ton of them. Admittedly, I stopped reading anything by him a few years ago for the sake of my sanity, so not sure if that tune has changed, but it used to be whenever he'd weigh in on an issue, it might as well have been a FOX pundit. I always found it a little bizarre, almost like he's on the payroll of a certain agency or something *cough Gough cough*.
01:54am 05/02/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13468 posts
If the ABC can own up to its own mistakes then the only reason left for someone to criticise Tone's comments which have been vindicated in respect of the Navy abuse story is partisanship.

this implies that the only problem tony abbot has with the abc is specifically their reporting of the navy issue. clearly that's not the case
02:17am 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1254 posts
The ABC has only said that there is an allegation of abuse at the hands of the Navy, with a video tape showing the injuries supposedly sustained. I don't understand what the over reach is?

What due diligence is there when the Navy just pull the national security card?

They said there are allegations, they never said the Navy is guilty or has definitely done something wrong.
10:39am 05/02/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7143 posts
They said there are allegations, they never said the Navy is guilty or has definitely done something wrong.
You do realise this is a very difficult concept to understand? Even a Rhodes Scholar like Tony Abbott is struggling with it.
10:54am 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1003 posts

i quoted why media watch thought it was over reach above? Media watch even quoted in the story and linked to the pdf interview (not quoted above but you can watch the clip from the link or read the interview pdf from the link below ) with ABC’s Managing Director Mark Scott saying:

"It was an important story to report, the right story to report, the result of investigations by the ABC. And what's very important in this context, is that it's clear that the ABC was not judge and jury on that matter. The ABC did not say that these allegations had been proved
— ABC PM, 3rd February, 2014"
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1401_pm.pdf

also infi, as media watch stated, if you believe people are only "howling" at tony because of his criticism over snowden or navy abuses ABC reporting you have just put your head in the sand. It was quoted from media watch above but I will even quote it again for you:

That aside, you have to ask if the Snowden and Navy mistreatment stories explain the current storm of criticism, and we believe they dont. Its part of a bigger game.
The ABC has come under constant attack in the past year the Murdoch press, led by The Australian and columnists in News Corps tabloids.
This has been matched by a barrage of criticism on commercial radio ...


People are "howling" at tony to get his grubby Liberal party hands off our ABC because its obvious he is just a murdoch minion in this matter
11:43am 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1255 posts
Yeah Rulez, Protip: your walls of text don't get read, lrn2summarize.

As best I can see, the overreach was stating that the Indonesian police said they thought it was the result of torture? That's hardly conclusive against the Navy, nor is it suggested that it was. Maybe the ABC were a bit careless with their wording, but if the Indonesian police are saying it, it certainly bears reporting and further investigation, particularly when the Navy won't talk about it.

It apparently is clear that it happened as part of a scuffle with the Navy, which at the very least ought to call into question how safe it is to be towing boats around the Timor gap.

The point is simply that reporting allegations as allegations is difficult to characterise fairly as over-reach.
12:03pm 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21167 posts
ABC did not have a prima facie case to be airing. They did not have any evidence which suggested on its face abuse of asylum seekers. They made the classi mistake of adding 2 + 2 to get 5. ABC should not fall for that trick, unless they wanted to.
12:09pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1256 posts
A group of people have been injured at sea, during a Navy operation, and Allegations surface of abuse at the hands of the Navy and the Navy won't discuss them, and there is no prima facie case?

The Navy was involved, people were injured, The Navy won't talk.

Strikes me as a clear cut prima facie case to report allegations, and investigate further, which they did. Lets not forget the Australian was reporting the same s***. Did they over reach?
12:19pm 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21168 posts
ABC could have said "an incident occurred". but allegations of abuse? why not add pedophlia and waterboarding as well, i mean its only allegations not like we're saying they did it?
12:36pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1257 posts
Because people weren't making those allegations?

If the allegations turn out to be false, it's important to know that false allegations were made wouldn't you think? you might read it as reinforcing the Navy's credibility and diminishing that of the Indonesian police.

I never for a second thought that navy personal were torturing people, but it obviously needs to be investigated. Bringing them to light and investigating them is hardly evidence of bias against the liberal party.

The Australian Newspaper also published the allegations. So did they add 2 and 2 and get 5 or is it ok when the Australian does it?
12:47pm 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1008 posts
PornoPete protip: Best to read (or at least skim*) and if you dont read and get called out later for not understanding a context then it is you who are not acting intelligent. This isnt the finger painting thread.

If you had scanned my post before the large quote you would of seen:

"The bit about Murdoch etc and why the Attack on the ABC (its a bit long so you could go to the above link and just watch the clip):"

So you would of watched the clip or read the transcript. Or you could just be in a political debate ignoring source texts and documents and quotes and end up looking unintelligent when you dont understand whats going on or who said what and why

*Protip: to skim read you read what a poster posts (i wrote 5 sentences) and ignore added quotes (which can really take up space) etc unless they pertain to your line of discussion. And yes what you "didnt read" pertained to your line of discussion. But you already know its just your lazy behaviour you are trying to now palm off as if its somehow my poor forum etiquette.
12:51pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1258 posts
No the intelligent thing to do when someone who posts walls of text with a compelling history of missing the point is to ignore them.

I had read the media watch transcript so some twit, regurgitating is a waste of time and energy.

I still don't see how anything media watch said shows a slamdunk of an overreach, particularly when, as the ABC boss pointed out, most other major news outlets ran the same story.
01:04pm 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1009 posts
I have a compelling history of disagreeing with you a*******. And thats it. You really are not as clever as you think you are.

I had read the media watch transcript so...


So you read the entire transcript but have a problem about (or someone else being able to) reading the entire transcript?

I still don't see how anything media watch said shows a slamdunk of an overreach, particularly when, as the ABC boss pointed out, most other major news outlets ran the same story.


what you dont see could fill a warehouse. Maybe go back and read the transcript (or watch the clip) you say you read.
01:25pm 05/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19201 posts
I have a compelling history of disagreeing with you a*******. And thats it. You really are not as clever as you think you are.
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Awesome But why do you call it a quot rage face quot _29df8606d0bdb0d63f749d3756c4a1c0.png
01:41pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1259 posts
No UR.

Saying media watch feels there was overreach doesn't make it so and quoting their entire transcript does nothing to help that.

But please continue to show us all your amazing powers of observation, and comprehension.
01:41pm 05/02/14 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
4846 posts
ABC could have said "an incident occurred". but allegations of abuse? why not add pedophlia and waterboarding as well, i mean its only allegations not like we're saying they did it?


because the words are right

someone makes a claim of abuse, the is an allegation of abuse
more than one person makes a claim, allegations

you'll also notice they use the word allege at times like an alleged hit and run, because regardless of what people claim they use that word until it is found what really happen
01:53pm 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1010 posts
Pete you are trying to do a switch. You are making out I said there was an over reach. I was pointing out media watch claimed there was and the reasons for the claim. That is all. Please work on your powers of observation, and comprehension.

What you are switching from is your juvenile claims of "long posts don't read". When the post consisted of my 5 sentences. A long quote. But a sentence warning it was long and to use the link to watch a vid. Where is your argument? You are just being juvenile. You are throwing out a TLDR because you dont like me regardless if it suits the scenario.

Much like Paveway is. Its fine you both don't like me. But please f*** off all the pretence and arseing around trying to legitimise your dislike. Its pathetic and obvious.

Im calling you unintelligent because you cant read long passages of text in a manner that makes it fast and easy ie. "Skim read".
02:57pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1260 posts
No you are just flipping out because you have contributed f*** all to the conversation and have been called out on it.

You claimed to have explained why media watch is claiming overreach, when it actuality you just regurgitated, at length a transcript that any one can already access.

I am not switching at all, I am saying that you post lengthy, often irrelevant crap in most threads you 'contribute' to. Sifting through s*** that has been posted and discussed for your unique view on it is a total waste of time.

I said hipster before and then you went on some lengthy diatribe about what a hipster is. You also felt it necessary to point out that the greens and labor don't have a formal coalition.

Disagreeing with media watch about what overreach is, is not contributed to by verbatim regurgitation of what they said.

So yes continue to call me unintelligent, and astound with your mighty insights. Maybe you can point out the bleeding obvious some more to further puff up your over inflated feelings of self worth.
03:20pm 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1012 posts
You are so boring.

You want to do this? Ok for the children:

The reason i bothered to put the entire media watch transcript of why murdoch is the reason for the recent ABC issues is because its a political thread. In case you havent noticed by now just posting a link to something usually results to a page or two later having the same discussion again because people just dont follow links. You get much better uptake if you put all the info right here.

I was addressing infi. All the evidence is required to go against infi because he really is a slippery sucker and i dont want to have to go over it again a page or two. Just linking s*** has proven not to work

I am not switching at all, I am saying that you post lengthy, often irrelevant crap in most threads you 'contribute' to. Sifting through s*** that has been posted and discussed for your unique view on it is a total waste of time.


In this instance you are wrong complaining about "long posts" because i acknowledged it was a long post and to go to the link or watch the vid. So you are not revealing anything. You are not shedding awareness on some problem with my post. All you are doing is highlighting your juvenile "don't like you not reading it" behaviour. If i hadnt acknowledge myself in the post that it was long and given an alternative then maybe you would be onto something. But that is not the case.

One could suggest if you are wrong here then you are wrong often. We can go back over many threads ive contributed to and find accurate and informative posts. Wether you agree with them we might find is the issue.

I dont think anyone else would require this explained to them. We all know the ring a ring a rosie nature of political threads. So it is your dislike of me causing you to be an a*******. You are a boring waste of time. You waste my time having to defend myself. You waste everyone else's time reading about your personal issues. And no brow beating me and trying to intimidate me with your over inflated sense of ego you seem to have acquired that your opinion is the AG standard of proof about what constitutes a meaningful post will make you any more correct.

Get over yourself.
03:37pm 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21169 posts
So the point to your verbose statements concerning Media Watch where Paul Barry says we believe "ABC got it wrong", is that is not what Media Watch said?
03:42pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1261 posts
I was addressing infi. All the evidence is required to go against infi because he really is a slippery sucker and i dont want to have to go over it again a page or two. Just linking s*** has proven not to work

You directed me to your post as an explanation of why media watch claimed over reach or did you forget that, here let me remind you.
i quoted why media watch thought it was over reach above?


At best that was directing me to knowledge I already had, rather obviously as I said I don't see how this equates to overreach. Besides which, how is media watch identifying over reach on behalf of the ABC have anything to do with the Murdoch media?

Murdoch making a huge beat up over it to precipitate cuts to the ABC budget is really obviously distinct from the factual analysis of the ABC's mistake or otherwise.

But I'm sure something that obvious doesn't need to be explained to someone of your superior intellectual abilities.
04:04pm 05/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1013 posts
the point, infi, is that the whole overreach in reporting of navy abuse and the backlash from tony as being unpatriotic is a white elephant used as cover by tony to push the murduch agenda. That is the actual whole thing here. The fact that the ABC over reached on a story is not the same as the ABC did something wrong to publish a story on the incident. They got the story wrong (from the evidence so far) but they had every right to print it as according to former ABC boss David Hill:

"It is a great shame governments dont recognise the ABCs greatest patriotic duty is to continue to hold governments to account by the provision of independent, unbiased, and honest news to the Australian public.
Sydney Morning Herald, 31st January, 2014

The point is we have a prime minster backing private interests using flimflam and white elephants to attack what is a beloved and majority supported media outlet who is in essence doing the right thing. That should not be behavior befitting head of government.

pete your an idiot - the evidence is all in the transcript. If you cant nut it out when its right in front of you i cant help you.
05:07pm 05/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1262 posts
If you insist rulez. But it seems that you really struggle to see points, or to identify separate ones.

The result of your reasoning is that the ABC has a right to publish factual inaccuracies. That is absolute lunacy.

The story was, as far as I can see, people made allegations, that turned out to be false, against the accurate backdrop of injuries sustained during a Navel operation. The ABC *AT NO TIME* made a claim to the factual accuracy of the allegations, they merely reported that they had been made.

The worst that can be said for the ABC is that they were insufficiently clear in stating that they were merely allegations, but even the media watch transcript has to say things like "they essentially said the Navy did stuff".
05:27pm 05/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6698 posts
The heat being generated in this thread could power a small city.
07:17pm 05/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8255 posts
the point, infi, is that the whole overreach in reporting of navy abuse and the backlash from tony as being unpatriotic is a white elephant used as cover by tony to push the murduch agenda. That is the actual whole thing here. The fact that the ABC over reached on a story is not the same as the ABC did something wrong to publish a story on the incident. They got the story wrong (from the evidence so far) but they had every right to print it as according to former ABC boss David Hill:

Here's the thing, you will never ever get a mature response from infi saying that he understands, or was wrong, etc. He'll ignore where you explained it to him, then start the same argument again a few pages later with somebody else, and seems to exist purely as a propaganda outlet for the party which he is a member of, where staged hypocritical outrage and anti-science are his favourite tools.

If I were a mod, he'd be banned for unsanctioned advertising, because he's not actually here to have a conversation. Lesson learned the hard way after years of trying, just warn others and move on.
07:51pm 05/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10974 posts
If I were a mod, he'd be banned for unsanctioned advertising, because he's not actually here to have a conversation.


Because a conversation with you involves agreeing with you ?
You are the very thing you accuse him of being.


09:16pm 05/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8256 posts
Lol No. Strawman harder.

Everything that I said about infi applies to you too faceman. Every time that you get facts or information that requires you to readjust your position, you just stop responding until a few pages later where you start the exact same thing again. You are here for unsanctioned advertising, not discussion or reading.
09:44pm 05/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21170 posts
Nerf's condescending attitude is typical of the left intelligentsia. If you don't submit to their superior intellectual might you are ridiculed. The Left dont politely disagree. They seethe.
11:06pm 05/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
541 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: More troll
Send Private Message
02:05am 06/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8257 posts
02:40am 06/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2321 posts
Nerf's condescending attitude is typical of the left intelligentsia. If you don't submit to their superior intellectual might you are ridiculed. The Left dont politely disagree. They seethe.

Infi's completely rigid world view and love of the LNP and hatred of the left is typical of the right wing smug white upper class who think they are better than everyone. They don't respect anyone who isn't wealthy, white or well off as them. They don't care about anyone but themselves.
01:49pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3319 posts
02:41pm 06/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21172 posts
93. Supports a reduction of penalty rates and other Award minimums in a submission to the Fair Work Commission’s review of all Awards

How is providing workers with more opportunities to work a bad thing? The hospitality industry shuts down pretty much on public holidays now. I spoke to my local Subway owner in December and he said he wouldn't be opening on Christmas Day, Boxingt Day or New Year's Day because he didn't make any money the year before.

We have arbitrary government created rules shutting down employment opportunuities.
02:52pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1625 posts
Infi serious question: do you believe that workers who give up their weekends and nights to work should be paid penalty rates for doing so? Or should they be on the same base rate as everyone else who works for you?
02:58pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7148 posts
Restaurants often close on Mondays (despite a lack of penalty rates), because demand is low. They're open on the weekend (when penalty rates do apply), because demand is high.
03:19pm 06/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1020 posts
yeah

Its saddening to note that some backward types still regard as necessary the exploitation of workers as a step on the path to success.
04:00pm 06/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1725 posts

craig thompson (basically labor types) for example.


Except the fact that the case against Thompson has collapsed;

http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/the-collapse-of-the-case-against-craig-thomson,6114

Or is it the fact that you just read the Murdoch Media who only report the same LNP lies and deceptions.

93. Supports a reduction of penalty rates and other Award minimums in a submission to the Fair Work Commission’s review of all Awards

How is providing workers with more opportunities to work a bad thing? The hospitality industry shuts down pretty much on public holidays now. I spoke to my local Subway owner in December and he said he wouldn't be opening on Christmas Day, Boxingt Day or New Year's Day because he didn't make any money the year before.

We have arbitrary government created rules shutting down employment opportunuities.


Giving money to the wealthy doesn't create employment, you're still a Priest of Trickle Down which is a false god.

Creating demand creates employment and how this is down is by paying penalty rates. The "Workers" get the money and they spend it. If the wealthy get the money they just invest it for their own profit.
04:11pm 06/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21173 posts
Infi serious question: do you believe that workers who give up their weekends and nights to work should be paid penalty rates for doing so? Or should they be on the same base rate as everyone else who works for you?


I believe that instead of having government make arbitrary rules, people should be free to make their own deals - just like when you go to the supermarket, car yard or eBay.

My workers have penalty rates and I wouldn't remove them because my industry expects it and I would lose my good workers. Each worker and employee should be free to choose. I am a big believer in "it takes two to tango".
04:21pm 06/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1023 posts
I am a big believer in "it takes two to tango".


So what you are saying is you think its ok to f*** them over?

Jokes aside Let me see if i can get this logic. I will make it kind of point form so if you disagree with any point feel free to stop it there.

In Australia we dont want anyone living in poverty. Are we ok so far?

I shall continue:

To that end we need:
- minimum wage
- a safety net (welfare) for those without jobs or unable to work

In this way we have the best shot of ensuring no one will be living in poverty (the sad reality is that even with these measures people do).

We also believe that a fair normal day of work should equal a fair normal day of pay. Ok so far?

If the day is not a normal day of work then the pay should not be normal. Half day work = half day pay. But also longer than a normal days work = overtime. Or a non normal day like a public holiday = more pay. For examples.

Do we agree so far?

But the problem is while most agree the above is pretty sensible to the formation and continuance of a healthy community some rare few dont see it as that. They want as much work for as little pay as they are forced to give. This is called exploitation.

So society has enacted laws to make sure everyone is on the same page. If there were no laws ruthless c**** would be able to exploit the most helpless and vulnerable. Such as the sick. Children. And the very poor and desperate. That would also lead back to minimum wage and the safety net.

How? Because if you had no fixed wages then you would have people working full time but still be living below the poverty line because some a******* wants to pay a buck fiddy an hour and who would need to step in? Government. why? Because we cant have people living in poverty in Australia.

So with that in mind and so the burden of keeping people above the poverty line (at least people able and inclined to work) falls on employers and doesnt burden the government (whose role is to support the non workers) is why we have min wage. Ok?

Make sense?

Now some might call this all obvious and i wish it was to all but you might be surprised who just dont look at the world this way.
04:41pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Vash
3902 posts
Poverty comes from lack of jobs, but in my opinion, having a market where the employer can pick and choose and hire the person who will take the least money is not the way to go.
This kind of free market mentality is what leads to situations like China. Very low standards of living, huge income inequality, and in general a s***** society to live in.

Australia has an excellent balance at the moment. We can only hope the Coalition won't f*** with that - too much.
05:03pm 06/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1264 posts
This kind of free market mentality is what leads to situations like China


But China's market liberalization has lead to the single greatest reduction in global poverty in human history?

That's not saying unions and safety nets etc aren't important, but stats like (source):
absolute poverty declined from 41% of the population to 5% from 1978 to 2001.


are fairly difficult to argue with.
05:22pm 06/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21174 posts
If the day is not a normal day of work then the pay should not be normal. Half day work = half day pay. But also longer than a normal days work = overtime. Or a non normal day like a public holiday = more pay. For examples.


I am pretty sure that there is not a single farmer, small business single operator, sub-contractor or basically anyone who has any connection with the reality of paying their own operating expenses and having to create a product/service or else face bankruptcy would agree with that statement.

Unions live in a bubble where they are enforcing conditions on owners without having any of the capital at risk. They are like public servants!

So society has enacted laws to make sure everyone is on the same page. If there were no laws ruthless c**** would be able to exploit the most helpless and vulnerable. Such as the sick. Children. And the very poor and desperate. That would also lead back to minimum wage and the safety net.


so your solution is to force employers to pay more for workers who are by their own physical limitations not able to produce as much. Instead of relying on the social safety net funded by taxpayers, a single employer is supposed to foot the bill of an inflated wage. HAH

Because we cant have people living in poverty in Australia.


the poverty line is an impossible myth created by ACOSS and the like. anyone who is accessing government benefits is not in poverty - they are getting free money. those not accessing benefits due to mental illness, disability may never enter the workforce so are irrelevant to the discussion of wage fixation.

So with that in mind and so the burden of keeping people above the poverty line (at least people able and inclined to work) falls on employers and doesnt burden the government (whose role is to support the non workers) is why we have min wage. Ok?


that was a brilliant punch line. am i on camera - is this a practical joke? placing a welfare obligation directly on a single employer has to be THE most retarded gthing I have ever read on this forum. and that includes fpot's statement that Australia should take unlimited refugees. congratulations. i present you our next Greens candidate....
05:39pm 06/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1025 posts
yeah but those poverty levels might of been so high because they were inflated. War and communism in the 1970's slowly stabilizing until we get to the point where China has improved its act enough to be given a chance to host the Olympics.

I think other factors a part from a free market mentality were at play as to why the absolute poverty level was so high in the 1st place and as to why it is now much much better.

For example: China have a massive amount of landless peasants with no education and no prospects flowing into the cities. This creates a very cheap labor force for factory type work like in manufacturing. Australia is a little different.

EDIT: missed that amazing infi post as was posting:

Anyone who is accessing government benefits is not in poverty - they are getting free money.


The poverty line is a artificial construct and isnt real you say? And people getting "free money" cant be poor or in poverty? Wow you are so out of touch. People on benefits are not just living on the poverty line but actually living below the poverty line. That is the very definition of poverty.

I guess next you will try to say people on 200K plus wages a year are not "rich".
05:43pm 06/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1265 posts
China HAD a massive amount of landless peasants with no education and no prospects flowing into the cities. This creates a very cheap labor force for factory type work like in manufacturing. Australia is a little different.


fixed.

I happy to entertain another explanation, but this graph is fairly compelling. Note the surges in growth associated with privatization events.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Prc1952-2005gdp.gif

Doesn't mean there isn't a balance to be struck, but China is unquestionably better off as a result, in large part, of market liberalization.
05:58pm 06/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2322 posts


I believe that instead of having government make arbitrary rules, people should be free to make their own deals - just like when you go to the supermarket, car yard or eBay.

My workers have penalty rates and I wouldn't remove them because my industry expects it and I would lose my good workers. Each worker and employee should be free to choose. I am a big believer in "it takes two to tango".

But don't you disagree with things like public healthcare, the NBN, and such? All strong economies have the government investing in their infrastructure. The Scandinavian countries especially, have extremely strong public healthcare and high taxes. Their quality of life is very high. The government should be looking after it's people. Offering things like public healthcare for all, decent internet infrastructure (because the free market sure as s*** wont do it), etc are part of that.
06:10pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
83 posts
That graph is extremely misleading with its "market-based economic reforms since 1778". China's GDP growth is due to massive industrialisation and urbanisation with a focus on exports, 98% brought about through centralised control.

If anything, the percentage of its production controlled and owned privately has diminished over time, or at least has not grown to match its ridiculous economic growth.

But the real lesson to be taken from the chinese example is how meaningless these labels of 'private' and 'public' ownership are. People have put so much effort into explaining china in these ideological terms but nothing really quite fits... whether its the state or private wealth, power is power and you aint got none of it.
06:51pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Vash
3903 posts
What i was saying wasn't for eliminating poverty, it was for creating a comfortable standard of living, rather than being forced to work in the conditions and hours the average Chinese citizen is required to make ends meet.
Apple / Microsoft factory workers, for example.
07:51pm 06/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21175 posts

But don't you disagree with things like public healthcare, the NBN, and such? All strong economies have the government investing in their infrastructure. The Scandinavian countries especially, have extremely strong public healthcare and high taxes. Their quality of life is very high. The government should be looking after it's people. Offering things like public healthcare for all, decent internet infrastructure (because the free market sure as s*** wont do it), etc are part of that.


Government has a role in ensuring law and order, safe borders, and a safety net for citizens. Public works is part of that however governments will vary in their level of involvement. The more socialist a government is the more public assets they will construct and operate. I think Australia has accepted the social compact of universal healthcare. Now if only we can find a way to remove the thousands of bureaucrats from Canberra none of whom have anything to do with delivering health care. As to the suggestion that government should be looking after its people, I personally would prefer to be left well alone. Government can focus on delivering its safety net.

The poverty line is an artificial construct, for example, see this excerpt from ACOSS's own annual report defining poverty line:

One simple way to measure this that’s widely used by Governments and expert bodies such as the OECD is the number of people living below a poverty line. This report uses two poverty lines, 50% of median household income (half of the ‘middle’ income for all households) and 60% of median income.

The lower of these poverty lines (which is used by the OECD) equates to a very austere living standard: a disposable income of less than $358 per week for a single adult (higher for larger households to take account of their greater costs). This research also takes account of people’s housing costs in measuring poverty.


Thus the quest of poverty can never be resolved, as it is a relative measure. We will always be chasing the dragon.
07:59pm 06/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
84 posts
it always seems so easy to bag the unemployed and talk about 'free money', but its the richest who are all about free money. Whether its interest from the bank or returns on an investment, it's literally recieving money because you already have money; and the more money you have, the more money you get.

Certainly nothing to do with incentive and hard work - it's literally money for nothing. And it's a lot of money; most of it, infact.
08:38pm 06/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1266 posts
What i was saying wasn't for eliminating poverty, it was for creating a comfortable standard of living, rather than being forced to work in the conditions and hours the average Chinese citizen is required to make ends meet.
Apple / Microsoft factory workers, for example


Yes but they have always worked, working while not living in extreme poverty is fairly obviously a big improvement. It's not ideal currently but its better than it was.
10:49pm 06/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1232 posts
A poverty free society is something that is worth aspiring to and is something we should be chasing. You can't just say well the poorest are better off than they were 20 years ago while the gap between them and the richest gets wider so it's all ok.
08:00am 07/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1235 posts
Pretty good browser extension.

http://stoptonymeow.com/
02:37pm 07/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10976 posts
02:53pm 07/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8261 posts
GetUp ran a campaign against the Labor government over the net filter, but now that they disagree with Tonez they're a wild Labor apologist lefty group am i rite??!
04:30pm 07/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21176 posts
I have never seen Getup handout on election day for the Libs. #justsayin
04:33pm 07/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8262 posts
Probably because they thought that the libs had even s***tier policies?

The way that you guys are so fanatical with-us-or-with-our-enemy, even for people who have been actively critical of your 'enemy', is so psychotic that it's getting worrying.

Again, I think that you should see somebody and just explain how you've been acting almost cult-like about political parties.
04:56pm 07/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1267 posts
If anything, the percentage of its production controlled and owned privately has diminished over time, or at least has not grown to match its ridiculous economic growth.


Care to back that with any stat at all.
05:12pm 07/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6705 posts
The only thing that really matters now is to make sure house prices keep rising no matter what.

The Australian Housing Investor’s Prayer

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Feds neg gearing to keep,
If prices slide before I sell,
I pray new buyers be lured to hell,
May capital gains offset the rent,
And bless me in retirement. Amen.

11:59pm 07/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21179 posts
Did you write that yourself?
12:03am 08/02/14 Permalink
Nerf Stormborn
Brisbane, Queensland
8263 posts
Infi's condescending attitude is typical of the left intelligentsia. If you don't submit to their superior intellectual might you are ridiculed. The Left dont politely disagree. They seethe.
02:55am 08/02/14 Permalink
Twisted
Brisbane, Queensland
12012 posts

I spoke to my local Subway owner in December and he said he wouldn't be opening on Christmas Day, Boxingt Day or New Year's Day because he didn't make any money the year before.
Oh f*** off. No one works christmas day by choice. They work christmas day because of the penalty rates because they're probably paid so s*** the rest of the time it seems like winning the lottery a few days a week. If they just paid normal rates people just wouldn't bother working those days.
11:13am 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21180 posts
Can people be free at least to make that choice, or are we about taking people's choices away now?
11:57am 08/02/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7155 posts
Didn't people already choose by voting for politicians who introduced penalty rates?
12:18pm 08/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1031 posts
lol the ol howard "work choices" line hard at work here in 2014.

infi you really are a special product of your party
12:31pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21181 posts
i don't know what those responses mean, i was looking for a response to my question. should people be free to choose or not?

Didn't people already choose by voting for politicians who introduced penalty rates?


does an individual have a right to choose? do they have that liberty? or are they subject to the group's desires in relation to employment?
04:31pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15099 posts
People have the right to choose and a right to a fair agreement.

Work choices benefits those of high skill without a doubt, as they are in the position of power or at least equality in the negotiation. When it comes to lower skilled employees they have less power of negotiation and can easily be coerced into accepting a reduced pay by an employer through fear of someone else getting the job. I don't think the majority of employment contracts should be a result of fear, even if that means us high value employees get shafted a little.
04:43pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21182 posts
does that go for the big bully jb hifi or harvey norman when you go to buy a tv. should all tv prices be regulated to protect the poor consumer? if no whats the difference?
05:19pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
7156 posts
does an individual have a right to choose? do they have that liberty? or are they subject to the group's desires in relation to employment?
The problem is your idea doesn't solve this. It simply encourages all employers to scrap penalty rates over time to cut costs, and then choice has disappeared again. But you get what you really want out of this: cheaper labour (not this smokescreen bulls*** about freedom of choice).
05:33pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15100 posts

does that go for the big bully jb hifi or harvey norman when you go to buy a tv. should all tv prices be regulated to protect the poor consumer? if no whats the difference?


The difference is one deals with consumer goods and the other peoples livelihoods, you should be able to understand that difference it is pretty significant.
05:42pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21183 posts
and the other peoples livelihoods


not really. most workers in the hospitality industry are casual and the job is not their livelihood. they would just get another job down the road, or at the next tourist spot they are tripping to.

moreso, if the job is their livelihood and thus central to their lives, you submit that is the reason for them to have less choice over whether they can work a sunday shift at a lower penalty rate if they so choose. the things that are most important to people they need to have the least choice in? we should also be selecting who can marry and who can get divorced?

oh hang on you are pro gay marriage. so in relation to marriage you want more choice but in relation to employment you want less... :/
05:58pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15101 posts
The problem is, they will take the lower pay because the other guy will, so they are being forced to choose the lower rate. There are plenty of 'game theory' type studies out there that show this is how the majority of people work.

Unfortunately this leaves the business world wide open to lower the quality of working conditions for the average Australian.

This isn't a simple comparison to such things as marriage, oranges and cars dude. Very different.
06:19pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21184 posts
so you are actually trying to say that employees as a seller of their labor are prepared to keep reducing their price due to some perceived shortage of work, whereas that is not the way any other seller works, i.e. workers devalue their own labor intentionally, or there is always for some reason a shortage of jobs compared to workers.

as i am following your argument, the only solution to this perceived shortage of jobs for workers is to artificially inflate the price of the workers labor so that they don't earn too little, which in turn means that the employer pays more for their labor and thus increases the cost of their product to higher than what the shoppers could otherwise have gotten the product at. putting aside the fact that artificially increasing labor and prices is inefficient for the economy, this strategy of artificially inflating the cost of labor does nothing to address the underlying problem identified at the start i.e. shortage of jobs.

if the rate of labor was lower, then employers would employ every willing worker at the market rate. but because the rate has been artificially inflated, only the most profitable employers will take up workers. of course these principles only apply in work sectors with marginal profitability. workers whose market rates have exceeded the award needn't worry, but then why should any worker be stopped from working.... cos the govt said so.

The suggestion that pricing for labor operates differently to selling cars, oranges or TVs is laughable.
07:37pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
85 posts
so you are actually trying to say that employees as a seller of their labor are prepared to keep reducing their price due to some perceived shortage of work, whereas that is not the way any other seller works, i.e. workers devalue their own labor intentionally, or there is always for some reason a shortage of jobs compared to workers.


What? That's how a market works...

The suggestion that pricing for labor operates differently to selling cars, oranges or TVs is laughable.


It certainly does operate differently and that's why we have unions. Owning capital creates a distinct advantage for the buyer of labour. Only the most highly skilled workers get their actual market value. Everyone else competes for the priviledge of survival, while the governement does their bit through the availability of the dole and education. Then there's centuries of division of labour because private companies want the most efficient production and cheapest labour. The only way for labour to have an almost equal impact on economic conditions is through not competing with other labour.

If a market worked the way the theory says there'd never be recession or debt or any sort of fluctuation really because the amount payed in wages would be equal to the amount required to buy the goods. But that obviously isn't the case: for a private company to function the money coming in must be greater than the amount payed out - ie profit!
On top of that, the profit is used to expand production!

Then we've got exports, or global market factors. Essentially, the wages payed has virtually no direct or indirect impact on the sale price of the product.

From the perspective of the private company, whether or not the wages you pay is enough to buy the goods is not a concern; in fact wages are a cost and need to be brought down as low as possible. But how can wages be 'artificially' brought down without affecting sales? Simple: Debt. It's what is fueling our economy as we speak. Also, and you've heard this from palmer in his justification for lowered wages, focusing on exports. But the fact that there's no one left to export to doesn't seem to register with rich and stupid people.

Equating choice and liberty to having less money is pretty stupid.

Care to back that with any stat at all.


The restrictions tend to be absolute rather than a percentage.
08:31pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21185 posts
What? That's how a market works...


the suggestion above is that sellers of labor operate in their pricing decisions differently to sellers of other products, being more willing to take lower rates of pay due to some spectral power that employers have. the suggestion is that labor rates are "unique" because people. people are involved in every market transaction therefore the argument is invalid.

i would submit that if anything sellers of labor in australia are for more selective (unwilling to reduce their price) because they have a generous safety net to fall back on if they cannot get a job which meets their expectations (not to mention the punishment of progressive taxation which acts as a disincentive to taking up employment anyway). these support mechanisms do not exist for sellers of TVs or cars or oranges.

secondly nothing you have said posted roonee addresses the issue of how artificially inflated wage rates (and penalty conditions) are good for creating more employment. workers willing to take lower rates are doing so because they want to work. what in essence inflated wage supporters are saying is that we prefer those workers to be unemployed rather them take a lower wage they are willing to accept.

Equating choice and liberty to having less money is pretty stupid.


Liberty means you are free to make any choice you want, and that may be a good choice or a s***** choice, but at least you made it because you were free to do so.
08:45pm 08/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6707 posts
09:31pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15103 posts

The suggestion that pricing for labor operates differently to selling cars, oranges or TVs is laughable.


I want it to operate differently, I want it to favour the great many lower skilled workers, as they have the rawest deal when it comes to taxes, investments, living conditions, etc, and generally building a stronger financial position.

I want the poverty gap to be decreasing, not increasing. I want the lowest paid workers of our society to be able to live on what they earn, not have to suck on the government teet like you think they shouldn't.

What exactly do you think is going to happen when people are paid less for the work they do now? Do you honestly believe work choices will lead to everyone, or the majority of workers, to be paid more or just the minority?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 22:30:54 08/Feb/14
10:27pm 08/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21186 posts
What exactly do you think is going to happen when people are paid less for the work they do now? Do you honestly believe work choices will lead to everyone, or the majority of workers, to be paid more or just the minority?


More people will have more opportunities to work, on more days, and get more shifts. as a result small businesses will earn more money and grow and employ more workers. It is not necessarily inevitable that workers will earn less because people are free to work as much as they want to.

The economy will work more productively and we will be able compete in manufacturing and other industries which currently exist only by taxpayer subsidy. with greater diversity in industry we will have a better skill base and be better able to adapt into new industries as they emerge.

Even for low paid people, the best welfare is a job. it gives people a sense of self-worth and pride. people with disabilities will be able to work productively in the community perhaps on part-welfare but nonetheless contributing. Employers and employees will make a free choice each time what their labor is worth. As a result labor pricing would recalibrate the entire economy in Australia, productivity would go through the roof and cost of living would fall significantly.

There may be grievances about the American wage system but Australia has the 10 National Employment Standards and our society would never tolerate a complete deregulation of our labor system. But at the moment, our labor system is so overregulated it's broken. American productivity since the GFC has gone through the roof and now manufacturers are coming back to the USA. Imagine that! That's the benefit of a highly flexible labor market. Australia just says goodbye to its large manufacturers one at a time. They will never return.

VW to invest $7b in US Plant.
10:58pm 08/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1035 posts
trickle down economics dont work.

Get rid of all safety nets for employers looking to hire unskilled or semi skilled labor and you will have the situation like this in Australia:


The Motorcycle Diaries - Clip - Chquicamata mine by MyMovies_International

Which the liberal party will be fine with. Cheap wages!

But if you have an issue the liberal party will have a sit down meeting organised for you:

11:48pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15104 posts
It means lower wages for the less skilled and therefore more dependency needed on government welfare. You say it doesn't necessarily mean that it would happen, but you know it would.


The price of grain and other cost of living commodities that are needed will not go down if Australia takes work choices or not. Therefor any loss in income from the most vulnerable, which you must remember make up a large portion of Australians will be heavily felt.

I can agree with you however that employees need to understand that industries in Australia must be able to compete in order to have a job available for someone to work at.

Giving the upper hand to employers at the expense of the vulnerable is not the way to go about it. EBA's and other system are needed to keep some power in the employers hand. Penalty rates are an issue that needs to be looked at, and I think EBA negotiations need to give the employers a bit more leniency to work with, particularly in tough times.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 23:57:59 08/Feb/14
11:56pm 08/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15108 posts
Whoops, that should say EBA's for the employee, not employer.
12:35pm 09/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
86 posts
The price of a product is determiend by how much it cost to produce. The price of labour is determined by who is willing to work for the least amount of money.

Consumer debt is a result of wages being too low.

Consumer debt has gotten so bad that we're incapable of correcting it.

If you produce something and people don't have enough money to buy it, you're gonna have a bad time... that's like year 3 maths.

Anyone who thinks wages are too high can't grasp year 3 maths.
01:58pm 09/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15111 posts

Consumer debt is a result of wages being too low.


Consumer debt is a result of consumer taking on more that what they can afford, which is driven by easy credit.

A working person should not have to go into debt to afford the necessities of life, cloths/shelter/food/communication. Things beyond though are the choice of the consumer, going into debt for luxury goods is not a problem of wages.

So your comment is too broad to be acceptable.


My concern is if business is allowed to get to the point where they pay workers so low that they have to go into debt for those necessities then we have a problem. We are not there yet and I don't want it to be able to get there.
02:06pm 09/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21188 posts
Consumer debt has gotten so bad that we're incapable of correcting it.


that is because of the choices made by consumers, or are you suggesting wages should be forced higher by law to accommodate every poor consumer choice?

If you produce something and people don't have enough money to buy it, you're gonna have a bad time... that's like year 3 maths.


the manufacturers respond by cutting prices, or else their product sits on the shelf like a bottle of stale piss. that's the exact same principle at work at workers lowering their rates to enjoy more employment opportunities. wow what a concidence.

Roonee do you draw on the walls of your bedroom?
02:07pm 09/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15112 posts

that's the exact same principle at work at workers lowering their rates to enjoy more employment opportunities.


No, it isn't the same principle at all, workers are far more complicated than the expiry date of a product.

Also the word enjoy there wasn't necessary at all, it was a word placed squarely to place positive spin on your comment to try and persuade your argument with emotional ques. I'm guessing that stuff is used often in courts? (just out of curiosity, nothing to do with the debate)
02:17pm 09/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1038 posts
its also missing the point (more like masking the point) that people dont want more opportunity to work. We dont see people working 40 hour weeks saying "s*** it sucks i cant have more work opportunities. If only I could work another 40 hours this week. I know i will halve my wages voluntary so my boss can work me the whole 80 hours"
02:47pm 09/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10979 posts
Royal Commission into the Unions/slush funds.
This is going sink Shorten.
If he defends the Unions he risks making Labor look like the Unions run the Party.
If he doesnt defend the Unions, they will eat him.

03:07pm 09/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21189 posts
what about underemployed people who can't get work on a sunday or public holiday because it is not profitable for their employer? that is the essence of the argument here. full time employed people can look after themselves. there is a whole underemployed class of workers here who have their employment prospects limited by canberra boffins. they aren't even able to work on sunday or public holidays for ordinary rates even if they wanted to, even if it was convenient for them. it would be illegal.

secondly the argument that left to its own devices the market would ensure people would descend into d***ensian poverty where they would not even be able to afford the necessities of life is absurd. business and employers make their money fro delivering/selling goods and services to those exact same people. if by some fluke the entire australian economy of employers managed to conspire and reduce every employees wage into abject afghanistani level poverty (which is laughable but i will play out your chicken little scenario) this would result in two things
- a net reduction in the overall quality of living for Australia (which businesses dont want because they want consumers to buy more s*** not less);
- each individual business would find themselves unable to sell their own products and thus go broke.

Capitalism revolves around a neverending relationship between producers and consumers to be creating and exchanging goods and services each party wants. Every exchange happens because the other party wants it to happen.

the workforce reacts to inferior employment conditions with fluidity if the labor environment is flexible. i.e. if employers are constantly offering new jobs all the time employees are able to compare the rates and get new jobs with better conditions. if however a market is inflexible, employers will be more reluctant to offer new jobs and thus there will be fewer opportunities for workers to evaluate current market conditions. if you think it's frustrating to get outbid on an item you want on ebay, imagine how frustrating it is for an employer to lose one of their good staff to a higher bidder.
03:09pm 09/02/14 Permalink
beau
Brisbane, Queensland
332 posts
The price of a product is determiend by how much it cost to produce. The price of labour is determined by who is willing to work for the least amount of money.


Apparently not. I used to think the same, but that's old fashioned thinking.
Value is placed on utility, and little or nothing to do with labour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility
economists consider utility to be revealed in people's willingness to pay different amounts for different goods.
03:20pm 09/02/14 Permalink
cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
1944 posts
what about underemployed people who can't get work on a sunday or public holiday because it is not profitable for their employer? that is the essence of the argument here. full time employed people can look after themselves. there is a whole underemployed class of workers here who have their employment prospects limited by canberra boffins. they aren't even able to work on sunday or public holidays for ordinary rates even if they wanted to, even if it was convenient for them. it would be illegal.


the quickest way to shut people like the above up who whinge on the whole penalty rates thing. come and discuss it with me whilst i'm at work on christmas night, when your family is having a nice get together.

everyone would love to work the waking hours. everyone would like to have dinner with the wife and kids. everyone would love to spend time with the family and do family oriented things on the weekend or go out with some like minded mates.

for those businesses that make enough money and need to operate 24/7, there should always be a cost associated with doing so outside the rest of societies hours. if there was no money to be made people would never work those shifts. the fact that people do quite clearly points out that greed is a motivating factor.
01:42am 10/02/14 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3320 posts
What Cainer said. I know a few people who do shift work, and night shifts and weekend shifts messes up their lives and their family's lives .. the *only* thing that makes it bearable for them is the extra money.
08:29am 10/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1238 posts
It makes it a lot easier to read infi's posts if you imagine him to be Mugatu from Zoolander.

Hi Derek! My name's Little Cletus and I'm here to tell you a few things about child labor laws, ok? They're silly and outdated. Why back in the 30s, children as young as five could work as they pleased; from textile factories to iron smelts. Yippee! Hurray!
11:03am 10/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21192 posts
cainer, what about loners who just want to work? do they have to fit your stereotype? are they not free to work on a sunday or public holiday for any rate they choose? under the current rules no, it would be illegal for them to do so and their employer could go to jail. they become criminals for a private agreement between consenting adults.

typical of redhat to inject child labor laws as a distraction (htf is that even relevant to this discussion?!)

we are talking about adults who want to be able to work on sundays or public holidays, and employers putting them on without having to pay $45/hr. uni stuydents are a great example, these unconventional hours quite often suit their lifestyle but with inflated minimum rates for sundays and public holidays their work opportunities are less than otherwise could be the case.
12:14pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15114 posts
I agree with Infi that penalty rates as they are should be abolished as a mandatory requirement by an employer. It isn't fair on the employer to be forced to pay penalty rates on weekends and whatnot.

Penalty rates should be a negotiable option for both parties.
12:35pm 10/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1039 posts
It isn't fair on the employer to be forced to pay penalty rates on weekends and whatnot.


Why not?

And if you wish to argue it isnt fair then what is to stop things like: Minimum wage should be a negotiable option for both parties or Number of sick days should be a negotiable option for both parties or max working hours should be a negotiable option for both parties also being discusses?

No i think you will find the "one rule for everyone" works best when it comes to industrial negotiations at this level (ie. unskilled or semi skilled labor).

Leave the negotiable options for both parties for those conditions above the industry minimum. Get the best and fairest conditions etc, as it is for the majority, foundation as mandatory set industry wide and then bring in negotiation to fix all the conditions above that foundation.

To me we need to bring back some forms of industry protectionism. Lets take fruit and vegies. We have great farmlands and people willing to work those farms. But because we have no industry protection for Australian workers some farm in a 3rd world s*** hole can supply fruit at 1/5th of the price the aussie farmer can supply at.

Now some folks might say "but i want cheap fruit". But what they fail to see is if you want that cheap fruit Australia will also have to become a 3rd world s*** hole. Its obvious.

Do we want to be a 3rd world s*** hole? Now the super rich couldnt give a s***. They already are happy to live in walled exclusive compound. So they dont get a say. Because their say will only be "we dont give a s*** about you just get back to work and stop asking to be paid for it slave". In essence.

Who gets a say are average Australians. The middle and lower class. Because that is who will be affected when the country slides into "mexico mode". But the middle and especially the lower class are d*******s. Because they are the 1st ones to go buy 1 dollar banana's from mexico over 5 dollar ones from Australia. And gloat about how cheap are those bananas you ripper mate!

But they will also be the 1st to complain some short time later when the economy goes bust and min wage is abolished and overtime is scrapped and no more holiday pay or sick days and they cant pay their mortgage or send their kids to school because public schools were also abolished etc etc But by then it will be too late.
02:55pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15115 posts
'Penalty' rate.

The very name of it tells you that it is a punishment on the employer for asking people to work during, 'unsociable hours'. That was started in 1919, almost 100 years ago. In 1950 weekend penalty rates were used to compensate disturbances of family and social life.

So what you are saying is that employers should be punished for hiring people as if they had a family, even if that employee is a student with plenty of social life in 'unsociable hours'.


If a business really wants to hire someone during 'unsociable hours' and they can't find enough willing people they will be forced to increase their pay offering until they find them.


To me we need to bring back some forms of industry protectionism.



. Lets take fruit and vegies. We have great farmlands and people willing to work those farms. But because we have no industry protection for Australian workers some farm in a 3rd world s*** hole can supply fruit at 1/5th of the price the aussie farmer can supply at.


And why, do you think is that? Could it possibly do with the cost of land and labour?
Is it fair on the Australians that are willing to pay for 1/5th priced fruit to be forced to have to pay 5/5's of that price? What if they are already finding it hard to pay for that food now, at 1/5th the price?


And if you wish to argue it isnt fair then what is to stop things like: Minimum wage should be a negotiable option for both parties or Number of sick days should be a negotiable option for both parties or max working hours should be a negotiable option for both parties also being discusses?


The slippery slope idea huh? Max hours should be negotiable. Minimum wage should not be, sick days should have a minimum set limit. These are pretty obvious and I'm sure even Infi would agree.

What happens if you push certain over zealous, archaic conditions, such as penalty rates onto business that simply can't afford them? Holden? Toyota? SPC? .. They can't do business, no business = no jobs. Then everyone is f***ed. You have to give ground Rulez, there is no way out of that.

Giving up penalty rates is a way of giving ground that is fair for everyone.

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 15:12:02 10/Feb/14
03:07pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1198 posts
If a business really wants to hire someone during 'unsociable hours' and they can't find enough willing people they will be forced to increase their pay offering until they find them.

(Disclaimer / admission, this is the slippery slope argument you also mention):
The justification for regulating for penalty rates is that lacking mandatory collective bargaining, workers will accept bad conditions (in this case, no penalty rates) due to their short term financial circumstances that, in essence, allow businesses to exploit disadvantaged people and drive down pay and conditions for all workers.

Hypothetically, lacking regulation around working conditions (except minimum wage, since sick leave is only for full or part time workers), SPC would be in a very strong position to eliminate all penalty rates - people who live in that area will know that the options would be to take the bare minimum wage or SPC would close, leaving them jobless. Once SPC has a workforce at the lowest possible cost, any company that competes with them would be able to point to SPC as an example of why they need to also offer only the minimum wage.

While I personally don't think that weekend / after hours penalty rates are going to be appropriate in the long term, I firmly disagree with the "race to the bottom" that is likely to occur if they are removed without appropriate compensation.

Also, if it hasn't already been made, we need a distinction between weekend/after hours penalty rates and overtime. Overtime acts as a penalty on a business for impacting on the non work-life of the employee. If you need 45 hours of work done, hire another casual worker for the extra 12 hours. That way the first worker keeps a work-life balance and the casual worker gains skills and experience - and 12 hours a week will at least cut down a little on the amount of welfare the government pays them.
04:19pm 10/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1268 posts
Hypothetically, lacking regulation around working conditions (except minimum wage, since sick leave is only for full or part time workers), SPC would be in a very strong position to eliminate all penalty rates - people who live in that area will know that the options would be to take the bare minimum wage or SPC would close, leaving them jobless. Once SPC has a workforce at the lowest possible cost, any company that competes with them would be able to point to SPC as an example of why they need to also offer only the minimum wage.


Wouldn't the flip side of that be that, more jobs split between less available workers would drive up wages? To get the workers you need to take on SPC, you would need to be paying better than them not the same or less.
04:32pm 10/02/14 Permalink
cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
1945 posts
before you join the tony abbot cheer squad on evil workers extorting the poor, poor multinationals, just go have a quick look on the amount of government funding countries such as america and germany each put into their car industries.

secondly, since australia has become a free trade zone for the rest of the world to dump their products upon, the workers could work for free and still not compete with economies of scale that exist in the surrounding area.

overzealous archaic conditions ? what else should we get rid of ?
free healthcare ?
annual leave ?
long service leave ?
maternity leave ?
sick days ?
minimum wage ?
maximum standard hours of work ?
limits on cheap overseas labour ?
outlaw unionism ?
collective bargaining ?

if only we had endless bargain basement drones to do all the work then australia would be perfect wouldn't it, just like china. except for the ruling class and upper class of course, i mean job creators.

04:34pm 10/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19206 posts
cainer have you considered studying and improving your career prospects?
04:41pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15116 posts
SPC would be in a very strong position to eliminate all penalty rates - people who live in that area will know that the options would be to take the bare minimum wage or SPC would close, leaving them jobless.


The race to the bottom can only go as low as minimum wage. That is the protection.

Now with all the above being said it is useful to point out here that SPC Ardmona (SPCA), whom the coalition government incorrectly pointed out as having "way in excess of the award" and "extraordinary", "over-generous" and so forth. Has actually only been giving the industry award standard.
This company was also used by the coalition government to bring forth this debate on penalty rates, SPCA said it themselves.

The total cost of allowances for all production staff at SPC Ardmona for the entire year of 2013 was $116,467, which represents less than 0.1 per cent of the business's cost of goods for the year

.

The serious problems that have beset SPCA have not been because of labour costs and certainly not from the allowances, a fact borne out by the Productivity Commission's recent analysis



They pointed out the main issue that hurt SPCA has been the sustained high Australian Dollar.

The coalition got it blatantly wrong on several accounts. Tony abbot commented on the functioning of SPCA without reading the freely available EBA material.

So in this case, penalty rates are non issue.

Now, the question still remains, should a company be forced into giving a penalty rate when they are already forced to provide minimum wage? If so, why/why not?
04:42pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1199 posts


Wouldn't the flip side of that be that, more jobs split between less available workers would drive up wages? To get the workers you need to take on SPC, you would need to be paying better than them not the same or less.

Only if whatever region you are starting your business in has an effective 0% unemployment rate and have to recruit workers from other businesses.

Obviously this is an oversimplification: you'll need to pay more for skilled / experienced labour, but assuming the factory floor workers are essentially low-skilled, you can just pickup the unemployed rather than competing.

Those in favour of de-regulating will then say that you'll hit that 0% effective unemployment rate and have to start offering better pay/conditions to get staff, but the point at which that is true (how far down pay/conditions goes before you get there) is socially unacceptable in a developed country. If you look at the US as the prime example, pay and conditions for low skilled workers is so low that the government has to pay them significant amounts of welfare, which is paid for by taxes... I'd rather higher minimum wages.
04:43pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15117 posts
Cainer, you too are falling for the slippery slope fallacy. Giving up one condition does not mean that all conditions have to be given up in the future. Compromise can only happen when both parties are willing to take one for the team.

Surely there is need for some sort of middle ground? (Oh, how this country needs a viable Middle Political party!)


I'd rather higher minimum wages.


Exactly, minimum wage is the protection that workers should be afforded, not penalty rates. It should be up to the company to provide an 'incentive' rate for getting employees to work on the weekend.



you can just pickup the unemployed rather than competing.


Would it not be better to have the unemployed employed? Rather than keeping the unemployed as they are and the company having to compete for employed people? So in this case, the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. Kind of the opposite of what you want yeah?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 16:51:05 10/Feb/14
04:45pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1200 posts
Now, the question still remains, should a company be forced into giving a penalty rate when they are already forced to provide minimum wage? If so, why/why not?


Do you mean penalty rates for:
After hours during the week?
Sundays?
Public Holidays?
Overtime?
Split shifts?

Each of these has a different justification.

Personally, phasing out overtime for after hours and Sundays (with a raise in the minimum wage for compensation) is probably appropriate as society moves to the 24/7 cycle.
04:50pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15118 posts

Personally, phasing out overtime for after hours and Sundays (with a raise in the minimum wage for compensation)


I thought too that a minimum wage raise should happen, then quickly thought otherwise. Why should companies that work 5/7 days be forced to increase their minimum wage because of a comparatively few weekend workers for other businesses?

Overtime is called overtime, not a penalty rate. They are different. As for the others (except perhaps split shift) they should not be a compulsory burden on the employer. The only real exception may be Public Holidays on the justification that an employee knows the requirements of their employment before they accept. Where with public holidays they are few and granted by the state/nation.
05:00pm 10/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1269 posts
Yeah I don't know about that Malthius,

Even with an effective employment rate above 0% businesses are naturally going to grow and shrink to accommodate demand of what ever it is they produce.

Even if you can just scoop up the low skilled unemployed, if there is scope for growth why would SPC not move to expand its operation?

You would need a reason to wave in front of people to come work for you and not SPC. Anyway I can't back it up with any hard stats, but multiple sources of employment strikes me as fundamentally better for workers regardless of skill, than a single large employer. If there is literally no other work in town SPC would be holding all the cards (and obviously at this point legislation to stop them being d**** would be very desirable).
05:07pm 10/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21193 posts
These are pretty obvious and I'm sure even Infi would agree.


Correct Toll. We have the NES National Employment Standards which set a minimum set of conditions for everyone. What I am saying is that penalty rates are not good for anyone. They increase the costs of good sold to consumers, they reduce the amount of hours which service industries can profitably operate and they limit the opportunities for aspirational workers who just want to get ahead.

When I was in uni I worked several jobs that had no such thing as penalty rates. I bet the farmer wished he could get pebnalty rates while he was shooting his starving cattle.
05:29pm 10/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1041 posts
1st up its only a "slippery slope fallacy" if its not true. Its "cause and effect" is it is true. As we are suggesting some changes we don't know the future so cant call it a "fallacy" until after we make the change and see what happens. Im seeing a "race to the bottom" outcome as well.

"unsociable hours". How quaint. Now think of "unsociable behavior'". Because if you work late night you might just meet many people with that behavior. So you should get paid more. Also no public transport and less infrastructure makes life tough. So paid more. Less options to procure your existence = ever been grocery shopping at 11pm or even later? Most places charge a premium. So if you sleep during the day and only move around late at night because thats when you are employed to work - you get paid more. Im sure if we put our heads together we could come up with more financially draining experiences late night and Sunday etc workers would incur over regular 9 - 5 workers. Whats daycare like at 11pm to 5am?

"unsociable hours" may of once meant "less time with family in 1950's America but its not how life is today. Yes as Malthius said maybe once the 24/7 cycle is ubiquitous for all of Australia, and all the above negatives for late night / Sunday's disappear, maybe we can look at phasing out penalty rates. Don't hold your breath that will happen soon tho.

You have to give ground Rulez, there is no way out of that.


ah yes. But it depends where the middle ground is. I say lets double min wage and make max wage only a factor of min wage x 12. You say lets keep min wage but drop penalty rates. I say no you say yes. You say "my way or we have no company you need to compromise". That doesnt make it "middle ground compromise". You are not looking at what im asking for.
05:35pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15121 posts

Now think of "unsociable behavior'". Because if you work late night you might just meet many people with that behavior.


I worked nights at QML Pathology for a couple years, and for Aus Post. It's a bit rude to say that a portion of these people have "unsociable behavior" because they don't. No more than people working the day shifts.

If these reasons you talk about public transport, less options to "procure your existence", (when I worked night shift I had plenty of time to do grocery shopping during the day, we don't all have to sleep 12 hours) are really a problem, then people would refuse to work those hours unless they were paid more. However your reasons you just put up there, are non-issues. Have you actually worked night shift for any reasonable amount of time?


1st up its only a "slippery slope fallacy" if its not true. Its "cause and effect" is it is true. As we are suggesting some changes we don't know the future so cant call it a "fallacy" until after we make the change and see what happens. Im seeing a "race to the bottom" outcome as well.


Your vision of a race to the bottom is out of fear. Choices shouldn't be made born from fear. There is no reason why abolishing penalty rates would mean the removal of minimum wage, if anything it strengthens the case for it.

Saying there is a race to the bottom is as absurd as thinking that keeping penalty rates would mean no new business would setup shop here. That sort of thinking goes both ways and is plain silly.

07:01pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15122 posts

ah yes. But it depends where the middle ground is. I say lets double min wage and make max wage only a factor of min wage x 12. You say lets keep min wage but drop penalty rates. I say no you say yes. You say "my way or we have no company you need to compromise". That doesnt make it "middle ground compromise". You are not looking at what im asking for.



If you came to me with this proposal, "Double Min wage and max wage min x 12" I would assume you are not being reasonable, as a doubling of min wage would sink hundreds of small and medium business and maybe some big ones too. I would go to the arbiter and have your negotiations thrown out as being completely unreasonable.
Your example has failed from the start as its not based on reality.

Not only that,
"You say lets keep min wage but drop penalty rates. I say no you say yes." The only reason why someone would say No to request they don't want AND then put forth a request they know the other party doesn't want is to stall negotiations, which generally helps the employer particularly when pay rises are on the cards. Since you're a savy negotiator you wouldn't give me that luxery. Instead you would say, "Raise minimum wages by CPI each year and remove penalty rates".

Since you offered something I want for something you want I would be forced to consider it. This is how negotiation works. I may come back with something such as, OK minimum raise of CPI on every third year and no penalty rates. Of which you would counter and so forth.

Don't give stupid examples and people wont think you are stupid.
07:19pm 10/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1270 posts
Toll pointing out rambling irrelevant inconsistency is only more evidence that you are not as smart as you think you are.
07:45pm 10/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1044 posts
PornoPete umad? Or just making rage posts against me because you don't like me? That hurts man. I thought we were friends.

I worked nights at QML Pathology for a couple years, and for Aus Post. It's a bit rude to say that a portion of these people have "unsociable behavior" because they don't. No more than people working the day shifts


Are you intentionally mistaking my point for comic effect? If you are not going to be serious then try at least make your posts more comical.

Not the people you are working with. The people you will see out an about after nightfall especially late at night. For some this would be a concern. Walking home late through an abandoned parking lot is a little different than during the day when there are people about and its busy. For example.

All my points stand just saying "they dont stand" doesnt make it so. In fact you cant even get my points straight without my having to explain them.

Your vision that a race to the bottom is out of the question if left up to market forces is out of nativity and an unfounded belief that perhaps people will just do the right thing even though it goes against the evidence that when money is on the line, and profits, that most, the vast majority, corporation only ever look after the $$$.

If you came to me with this proposal, "Double Min wage and max wage min x 12" I would assume you are not being reasonable, as a doubling of min wage would sink hundreds of small and medium business and maybe some big ones too. I would go to the arbiter and have your negotiations thrown out as being completely unreasonable.
Your example has failed from the start as its not based on reality.


The reality is power. And those in control of power will never share it willingly. Money is power. The arbiter would do what you say because obviously they are on the side of power. Like Human resource management isnt about a better existence for the worker but more often about achieving managerial goals. Thats how life is. But we can look how things are it in the eye sometimes and pretend its not.

You, as the one with power, can pretend that the "negotiation" started when you were happy for an outcome. Wages are 10. Workers want 20. Management feels it has to make some token effort so as to be able to go to media and act big. So management thinks they will go to 14. Management offers 1. But workers know all this so workers dont ask for 20 they ask for 30. Therefore wages might be set at 14 after all the "back and forth" and management will play ball. Please. Play your silly little negotiation games elsewhere. Talking about "how life is" and "how life is" are very different things. There was never any "negotiation".

Don't give stupid examples and people wont think you are stupid.

Don't play stupid with me and we wont have the problem in the future.
08:39pm 10/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21194 posts
Rules I hope you never get near a management position. It's poisonous attitudes like yours that ruin workplace culture.
08:44pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15123 posts


Are you intentionally mistaking my point for comic effect? If you are not going to be serious then try at least make your posts more comical.


No I was being serious, your comment was incredibly arrogant and totally incorrect.

All the people I worked with who did night shift, they all had varies ways to get home that didn't require dangerous activities.


All my points stand just saying "they dont stand" doesnt make it so. In fact you cant even get my points straight without my having to explain them.

Your vision that a race to the bottom is out of the question if left up to market forces


Now who can't even get points. I never said market forces were to govern it, I say a minimum wage is needed as a safety net. Leaving it to market forces would mean no minimum wage.

I got to put my children to bed. Oh that reminds me:


And those in control of power will never share it willingly.


I have power over my house and children and I share it willingly with my spouse.


Management feels it has to make some token effort so as to be able to go to media and act big. So management thinks they will go to 14. Management offers 1. But workers know all this so workers dont ask for 20 they ask for 30. Therefore wages might be set at 14 after all the "back and forth" and management will play ball. Please. Play your silly little negotiation games elsewhere. Talking about "how life is" and "how life is" are very different things. There was never any "negotiation".


Have you ever been part of these negotiations? I have, Infi I presume has, but you? You make up all this s*** but do you actually have direct experience with any of it?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 20:58:17 10/Feb/14
08:51pm 10/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21195 posts
I have done several EBAs with my staff but my staff earn overaward. And I couldn't contract out of penalty rates because the entire industry is 24 hours and revolves around them. Think more about manufacturing, retail and hospitality where if penalty rates were lower we could have restaurants and jbhifi open much longer hours like in the States. More work and more services. Everyone wins. Australia would not accept a completely deregulated labor market, but free it up a little for crying out loud.
09:04pm 10/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1271 posts
PornoPete umad?


No just casually observing you're rambling irrelevantly and incoherently, again.

The reality is power. And those in control of power will never share it willingly. Money is power. The arbiter would do what you say because obviously they are on the side of power. Like Human resource management isnt about a better existence for the worker but more often about achieving managerial goals. Thats how life is. But we can look how things are it in the eye sometimes and pretend its not.

You, as the one with power, can pretend that the "negotiation" started when you were happy for an outcome. Wages are 10. Workers want 20. Management feels it has to make some token effort so as to be able to go to media and act big. So management thinks they will go to 14. Management offers 1. But workers know all this so workers dont ask for 20 they ask for 30. Therefore wages might be set at 14 after all the "back and forth" and management will play ball. Please. Play your silly little negotiation games elsewhere. Talking about "how life is" and "how life is" are very different things. There was never any "negotiation".


Meanwhile, on Earth...
09:52pm 10/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15124 posts

The reality is power. And those in control of power will never share it willingly


I'll tell you a little story. 15 Years ago, give or take a year, I did an assignment for uni. An individual oral presentation. I had to give it to a panel of 3 PHD's, 1 of which was a professor. Really harsh for a 1st year science student. I can't remember exactly what the assignment was about as that is irrelevant. I can remember saying something very similar to this:

And those in control of power will never share it willingly


It was such a broad, unbacked, totally unacceptable piece of drivel that the professor called me out on it. I was thoroughly embarrassed as I knew from that very moment how wrong I was to say that, how stupid it was me to assume such nonsenses and then present it, at a university level, to highly educated experts in their field.
They gracefully gave me a pass, a very low pass, as the rest of my argument was .. bearable.

I'll give you a pro-tip, take that lesson I learned for yourself, before you make the same mistake and embarrass yourself stupid in front of presumably important people and not just QGL. Doing so would show wisdom.
10:02pm 10/02/14 Permalink
cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
1946 posts
05:23am 11/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1047 posts
This isn't university. That nice talk about professionals and academics of university and about university degrees? That is just nice talk. Well degrees are good for toilet paper once you get out in the real world and get that 1st job where they barely glanced at the toilet paper in your hands. After that? You learn impressing PHD academic types at uni was just a fun game to play for boys.

I should say: I do respect learning and knowledge. Its too bad more people don't read more and take an interest in broadening their world views and awareness of life. But most of the learning and knowledge i got at uni wasn't from assigned textbooks and far too many people think uni is the be all and end all of life experience and pinnacle of learning.

No I was being serious, your comment was incredibly arrogant and totally incorrect.

All the people I worked with who did night shift, they all had varies ways to get home that didn't require dangerous activities.


Being out late at night is a dangerous activity. And how is public transport at 1am? Oh there is none? Guess employers should pay penalty rates to cover that.

The bottom line is penalty rates make sense for all the reasons ive stated. Tho thank you for your words of wisdom and your own little history of working night shift but that doesn't make you some authority. Thanks also for your tears pete.

As for your pro tip: thanks for pointing out a vague universal truth doesn't cover every situation if you look at it case by case. How do you get up in the morning knowing you contain such genius?
01:49pm 11/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19208 posts
the more you keep arguing this, the dumber you look

you aren't even making sense now, it literally just rambling because you can't accept you're wrong
01:53pm 11/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1049 posts
no im pretty sure i think im right about penalty rates being a good thing
01:56pm 11/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19209 posts
sure you do bro
02:10pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15135 posts
Of course penalty rates are a good thing, they shouldn't be a compulsory thing though.

If you think my post was a story about impressing university professors you greatly missed the point. Never mind.


Being out late at night is a dangerous activity. And how is public transport at 1am? Oh there is none? Guess employers should pay penalty rates to cover that.


So you think that if someone is paid a little bit more, its then OK for them to walk about at night? Penalty rates makes putting yourself into a dangerous position OK? Why does it make it OK?

You see, to me if you can't travel safely to get to and from work, regardless of the time of day, it isn't worth going to work. I don't care if I'm going to get paid 15% more to do it, its not an option.

Since all these people have safe ways to travel (remember none of the people who I worked night shift for put themselves in dangerous positions every night/morning to get home) why should the company have to pay them more?

Just for s**** and giggles:


a vague universal truth doesn't cover every situation


Then it isn't a universal truth is it. It is nothing more than your opinion.
That was the crux of my story, I presented my opinion as fact and got shot down for it, I learned a great lesson that day.


02:14pm 11/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1052 posts
the late at night penalty rate rate thing is an awareness that late at night just is more inconvenient and even more dangerous than during daylight hours. So your bit about "regardless of time of day" doesn't make sense because its a situation occurring only at night. A parking lot or park that needs to be walked through or even around at 8 am or 5pm to/ from work would never be as dangerous as between 10pm to 5am. Thats just how crime works. When crime happens.

Also late at night is no public transport. Which means private transport or taxis are the only option (or walking / bike and that leads back to danger). Both of which are more expensive to run/ use than public transport.

and extra 15%? Most workers who work late night hours are low paid . To some people every dollar counts. You were not at uni or young and free when you worked late at night? Didnt need a large income to support your sharehouse party lifestyle? Some penalty rates are time and a half or even double?

Also please i know you worked nights and you were fine. Everyone you worked with was fine. But you and your anecdotal experience is not a large enough sample size. So i hope you wont be offended if i don't focus on that. Its good you were safe tho. Here are Five quick facts about penalty rates

- 1.5 million Australian workers receive penalty rates; 4.6 million workers (48.1% of the workforce) are entitled to penalty rates for a public holiday and 4.2 million (44.2%) for a weekend, if they work at those times.
- There are 869,800 Australians who usually work Sundays in their main job. Not all of those workers would receive penalty rates, but for many the Sunday shift provides the boost needed to make ends meet.
- Case study 1 Cleaner - $86.34 a week worse off: A full-time cleaner at a hotel working their ordinary hours from Sunday to Thursday is paid a minimum of $726.54 a week, or $37,882 a year. If his Sunday penalty rates were scrapped, his wage would be cut by $86.34 a week, and his annual wage would be reduced to $33,380 before tax.
- Case study 2 Waitress - $2862 a year worse off: An adult waitress at a café or restaurant only gets paid $16.85 an hour for her work Monday to Friday, but if she works one of her ordinary shifts on a Sunday, she makes $25.28 an hour instead. This is equivalent to just $695.10 a week before tax. If her Sunday penalty rate was scrapped, her weekly wage would go down to $640.20, which is a wage cut of $54.90 a week, or $2862 a year, on an already low salary.
- 97% of Australians surveyed* agreed that weekends were an important time for families.
http://www.unitedvoice.org.au/penalty-rates

And for s**** n giggles lets not get started on why universal truths may or might not actually be universal truths because they are vague or for any other reason. It wont be as fun as it might seem.
02:42pm 11/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19210 posts
- Case study 1 Cleaner - $86.34 a week worse off: A full-time cleaner at a hotel working their ordinary hours from Sunday to Thursday is paid a minimum of $726.54 a week, or $37,882 a year. If his Sunday penalty rates were scrapped, his wage would be cut by $86.34 a week, and his annual wage would be reduced to $33,380 before tax.


so when he was offered the job he would have been told his salary was $33,380 for an average full time 38 hour week and because he's started working sundays / extra days regularly and was pulling that bit of extra money he has gone and now included that extra money into his budget to be relied on

how is that his employers problem exactly?
02:52pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1272 posts
I should say: I do respect learning and knowledge. Its too bad more people don't read more and take an interest in broadening their world views and awareness of life. But most of the learning and knowledge i got at uni wasn't from assigned textbooks and far too many people think uni is the be all and end all of life experience and pinnacle of learning.


Why do I get the feeling you went to uni, failed and are now really really self conscious about your intellect.

Every time someone points out your wild incoherence you respond with something like this:

How do you get up in the morning knowing you contain such genius?
02:52pm 11/02/14 Permalink
taggs
6268 posts
Haha, nah pete iirc ROB was talking about his management degree in a past thread.

Could explain why he seems a little bitter about worthless degrees.
03:03pm 11/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
11150 posts
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03:07pm 11/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1054 posts
pete it pleases you to go on about wild incoherence. But you are in the minority that does so. Please continue if it makes you feel like a big man. I do not mind at all if you also just decide im not worth your effort. I will try not to miss all your sniper shots in future if you do decide so.


Could explain why he seems a little bitter about worthless degrees.


Management. tell me about it ;p
03:10pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15137 posts
It's pretty obvious that taking away compulsory penalty rates will cause people who receive them to get less pay if the company chooses not to pay the rates. Pointing it out with case studies is unnecessary.

Since you are all for have penalty rates remain a punishment for companies hiring people on weekends and nights what do you propose to help the companies deal with very high wages so that they can continue to do business in Australia and employee a growing population? What ground are you willing to give?
03:43pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1273 posts
Yeah I'm not so sure I am in the minority dude.
03:44pm 11/02/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
860 posts
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03:44pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15138 posts
He loves to make assumptions like that, there is evidence of it across so many of his posts, yet he doesn't see them as assumptions but fact. Because of this, no reasoning can be done with him. Damn it, I've said it before that he can't be reasoned with, I've got to stop trying. I'll stop now, there is no point.
03:48pm 11/02/14 Permalink
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Thailand
863 posts
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03:57pm 11/02/14 Permalink
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Brisbane, Queensland
11151 posts
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04:01pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1274 posts
$2,800,000 computer speaker cables?
04:09pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15140 posts
Back on topic, ABC's Heavily biased Labour supporting traitorous ways did a Fact Check on Bill Shortens car subsidy claims and called them out as being misleading.

04:12pm 11/02/14 Permalink
taggs
6269 posts
ABC fact check didn't even raise the key problems with Shorten's numbers: namely that he uses per capita numbers when per vehicle is a far more appropriate measure and that he has used gross, unadjusted numbers which assume that industry assistance is applied identically across jurisdictions.

Taken from table 2.2 from page 61 of the Productivity Commission Position Paper on Australia's Automotive Manufacturing Industry:

http://i.imgur.com/KKlVrBB.jpg

Shorten is quoting the per capita numbers from the left hand column. I would argue that the numbers in the right hand column are far more appropriate to the discussions taking place in the media at present but it's always difficult to try and compare effective levels of assistance between countries.

On a side note, Australian economists at the Industry Assistance Commission (the predecessor of the PC) and the PC have lead the world in that kind of analysis after it was pioneered by another Australian economist, Max Corden.
04:28pm 11/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1055 posts
"He loves to make assumptions like that, there is evidence of it across so many of his posts, yet he doesn't see them as assumptions but fact".

Do I? I don't believe in facts. Except when i do. But more on the side of dont. It seems we are surrounded by facts. Facts everywhere. But when you look close there are no facts at all. No truth. Just convenient info grabs we like to believe in because it suits the our purpose for our brief little lives.

I see "it" as the way i see it. If that is how i see it therefor it is "fact" to me. Or more like its just how it is because facts can only restrict our knowledge of the possible. Too many "facts" have been holding back too many people for all time. Or more exact "life" or just how it is. Philosophically speaking. Its a hassle that i tend to take even silly sentences like your above one seriously and have a good think about it. I think you would prefer some one dimensional response puppet. Do you like art?

Im happy for you or anyone to put forth the case that can lead to discussion. Perhaps after a nice conversation we might both come to a larger understanding?

Im all for have penalty rates remain as a penalty for companies hiring people on weekends and nights I propose to help the companies deal with very high wages so that they can continue to do business in Australia and employee a growing population what i have already proposed about a page or so ago. Protectionism. Less import more reliance on self. We are a huge country we have almost every resource needed to make almost anything including manpower but we are getting heavily into import. And we are a primary exporter! Other countries want what we have so we do not need to worry about the whole "but if we add protection other countries will do so and it will hurt exports".

Also management / stockholders etc can take a massive pay / income cut.

Ive already raised both in the thread.

Taking money away from the poor and already disadvantaged lowest rung of society (often shift workers types) just doesn't seem to good an idea to me.
04:37pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1275 posts
Hey Taggs I don't totally understand that table.

reading the report they are saying that the left column is just all the subsidies added together, but it seems like we ought to be copying what ever the states are doing,

they spend 166 per car and get 264.82 worth per person but we spend 1885 and get 17.80?

is the discrepancy in the number of car produced?
04:43pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1276 posts
Do I? I don't believe in facts. Except when i do. But more on the side of dont. It seems we are surrounded by facts. Facts everywhere. But when you look close there are no facts at all. No truth. Just convenient info grabs we like to believe in because it suits the our purpose for our brief little lives.
I should say: I do respect learning and knowledge
04:46pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15141 posts

Taking money away from the poor and already disadvantaged lowest rung of society (often shift workers types) just doesn't seem to good an idea to me.


But that is the very thing you want to do, Protectionism.

You want to force the average Australian to pay more for a product produced here instead of leveraging international trade to buy a far cheaper product from overseas.

Pretty sure international trade leads to a higher standard of living as different areas of the world specialize in different products/services. Taking that away will probably lead to a lower standard of living for Australians. Yeah, I don't think so.

I'm doing it already, god damn it.
04:48pm 11/02/14 Permalink
taggs
6270 posts

The left hand column is a gross number, the sum of all industry assistance provided by each country per capita. As the report notes these numbers 'added all forms of assistance together for each country, assuming all schemes operated in an identical manner" which is obviously not a particularly robust assumption. For example, the left hand column would treat direct subsidies, loans, investments in R&D, "cash for clunkers", and other schemes as being more or less identical. The Autopolis numbers (middle and right columns) attempt to adjust for this by applying a cash equivalency rate to each of these forms of assistance. For example, some of the cash equivalency rates they have used are as follows:

Cash grants/subsidies - 100% (because all of this money would flow directly to the manufacturer
"Cash for clunkers" - 20% (because this money goes to consumers and roughly 20% of the original assistance would flow through to manufacturers via margins, Autpolis notes that 20% may be generous)
Loans - they have assumed a 2% beneficial difference between the rate of a comparable bank loan vs government soft loan which they also note is potentially generous
Etc.

More information on how they adjusted their numbers is here: http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/131076/sub224-automotive.pdf

The right hand column uses these same adjusted numbers but uses a per vehicle measure as opposed to a per capita one.

So really in terms of direct assistance to manufacturers they spend $166 per vehicle and $5.41 per capita. The left column isn't directly comparable to the other two in the manner of your post above and doesn't really seem to be a particularly meaningful number to begin with from what I can see.

It should probably be noted that the report the numbers in the left hand column came from was commissioned by the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries the industry organisation that represents car manufacturers. It wouldn't be unfair to suggest that it may be in the FCAI's best interests to present the levels of car manufacturing subsidies in Australia as being as low as possible.


04:58pm 11/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1277 posts
Yeah ok,

I guess the assumption must have been that all subsidies work identically to the Australian Arrangement. 5.41 against 264 is pretty stark.
05:15pm 11/02/14 Permalink
taggs
6271 posts
I've updated my previous post with a little more information.
05:18pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
6401 posts
Nothing to worry about for automotive workers. Fearless leader says when one door closes another door opens.
I sure would like to know how he'll manage to pull a rabbit and 50K jobs out of a hat though.
05:51pm 11/02/14 Permalink
csirac
Brisbane, Queensland
3137 posts
Nothing to worry about for automotive workers. Fearless leader says when one door closes another door opens.
I sure would like to know how he'll manage to pull a rabbit and 50K jobs out of a hat though.


Won't be one term tone's problem
05:58pm 11/02/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
865 posts
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06:12pm 11/02/14 Permalink
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Melbourne, Victoria
877 posts
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07:34pm 11/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21197 posts
So Rulez your solution to our issues of productivity and global competitiveness is protectionism. As a result, all of the cheap s*** we import will double in price and our nation's quality of life would plummet. I don't even know if the Greens' economic policy is that retarded.
09:54pm 11/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10984 posts
Agriculture = maybe if there is a lot of drought there is a lot of farming in areas there shouldnt be ?

Film = We need to see our national identity on screen otherwise our Culture will become American.

Food = We should never be importing food into this Country.

Negative gearing needs reform, i have no problem with someone having an investment property or two only.

Mining = earns a lot of money for this country.

Tourism = always dubious

Healthcare = Australia has an exceptional Healthcare System but wants to support a private healthcare system too, you cant get a little bit pregnant. \

Banks = shutup Meg

Cars = its finished.
11:11pm 11/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1222 posts
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11:22pm 11/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1561 posts
^^^^^ LOL
12:13am 12/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6715 posts
Lol Jim wins this epic thread
12:22am 12/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1060 posts
you are silly infi If you believe im going to write out an entire economic strategy for perfecting Australia just to explain why you are wrong.

Toll asked me what would i prefer to see so wage equality and some protectionism would be preferential to cutting penalty rates. Obviously that is not a complete solution so making retarded comments like comparing what i said to the entire "Greens' economic policy" is clutching.

What is wrong with some protectionism? Much better than open free trade that benefits other countries over ourselves. To borrow facemans list from sLaps table:

Agriculture = we have enough farmland and people willing to work it to feed our entire nation. There is very little we need to import in terms of needed food. Luxuries maybe but they should cost more. Atm farmland is going fallow and farmers without jobs because people can buy bananas made in a 3rd world s*** hole for 50cents over the $1.50 Australian grown ones.

Film = We need to see our national identity on screen otherwise our Culture will become American. Nothing to change here because being able to import shows form the US means the aust film and TV industry is really suffering .

Food = We should never be importing food into this Country. Same as agriculture.

Mining = So foreign countries might place tariffs on our mining exports. The fact is we can mine it cheaper and more efficiently than s*** holes like africa and mining companies and countries that buy off us know it. We are in the box seat.

Tourism = We should be taking more holidays at home but because many people go overseas to holiday in Australia is $$$.

Healthcare = Australia has an exceptional Healthcare System wont be affected by protectionism. We can make generic drugs here.

Banks = No one likes them.

Cars = If we had protection we would still have an industry here.

But i think what you said here is half correct:

As a result, (of protectionism) all of the cheap s*** we import will double in price and our nation's quality of life would plummet


The part that s true is all the cheap s*** we import will increase in price. But i see that as a good thing because why are we a nation of yobbos obsessed with owning cheap s***? Lets bring back artisans and handcrafted made to last items from real tradesmen. Who wants cheap imported s***? And if we must have cheap s*** like TVs etc why not manufacture them locally made in Australia by Australians with the profits going back into Australia?

And all that goes for you toll and your:

You want to force the average Australian to pay more for a product produced here instead of leveraging international trade to buy a far cheaper product from overseas.

Pretty sure international trade leads to a higher standard of living as different areas of the world specialize in different products/services. Taking that away will probably lead to a lower standard of living for Australians. Yeah, I don't think so.


You have your "facts" wrong. The product might be more higher here but with the profit Australian companies get by not directly competing with people that will work for 50 cents an hour companies will be able to pay real wages which in turn means people will be able to afford the higher priced goods. Standard of living will raise for the lowest rung citizens.

Im sure free trade does lead to higher standards in parts of the world. Because everything becomes generic. Globalism is a homogenizing influence. So wages go up a little in china and india (a very little by Australian standards) but plummet in Australia as factories shut and go offshore chasing the lowest wages.

As for different areas of the world specialize in different products/services we dont live in Japan or somewhere that is lacking some vital thing like land or metals. We have almost everything right here. Including primary resources. We can specialise in everything right here if there was support and the stimulation to do so.
12:23am 12/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1562 posts
You know what, I really need to question myself why I read any of this. My life must f*****g suck or I'm totally bent in the head.
04:16am 12/02/14 Permalink
ph33x
Thailand
868 posts
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10:11am 12/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2328 posts
Looks like unemployment is up to 6%. Clearly ALP is to blame.
02:34pm 13/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1223 posts
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02:57pm 13/02/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13470 posts
that's one of the dumber flyers I've seen
03:07pm 13/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15153 posts
That's because of the economic conditions instigated by the Labour government, they piss poor management of the economy has lead to this disaster of Job Loses from several major companies.

If only they did nothing earlier and let these people be liberated from their jobs during 2008 then the Libs wouldn't have these problem numbers!
03:07pm 13/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15154 posts
Or it could have something to do with world market forces that are uncontrollable by a single smallish (but rich) nation's government. Just maybe.
03:08pm 13/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
803 posts

Looks like unemployment is up to 6%. Clearly ALP is to blame.


The unemployment rise was forecasted in Labors budget. So yep, clearly Labors fault as are most other problems the economy is facing.


If only they did nothing earlier and let these people be liberated from their jobs during 2008 then the Libs wouldn't have these problem numbers!


Don't worry, the Libs in Victoria are taking a page out of Labors book in utter desperation and are stepping up Corporate welfare handouts to unprofitable businesses to "save jobs" despite the fact that when the money runs out, the jobs will once again be under threat just like with the car industry.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/spc-future-secured-after-napthine-government-tips-in-22-million-20140213-32k7g.html

I just don't understand why people can't accept the fact that private businesses should be left to their own devices? If you run a business and you can't make it profitable, badluck. Your business should be allowed to fail and businesses that are profitable will move in. I think most of the public don't understand basic free market principles and think its the governments responsibility to hold the hand of private business and give them handouts.

Welcome to free market capitalism.
03:17pm 13/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19224 posts
Someones ban just ended

03:28pm 13/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15159 posts
No, you will probably find that most of the public do have a reasonable IQ and have a basic understanding. Just because they don't agree with it, doesn't mean they don't understand it. There is a difference.
03:31pm 13/02/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1201 posts

Welcome to free market capitalism.

Free market capitalism rests on assumptions about the "free market" which are never met in practice, so governments are required to intervene to move the market closer to those assumptions (one example being government regulating businesses to prevent misleading conduct or deceptive advertising).

What you seem to be advocating isn't free market capitalism, but laissez-faire capitalism, which is a far more radical beast.
03:48pm 13/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
805 posts
02:51am 14/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1241 posts

Every one see the asylum seekers cartoon?

Not only is the government spending vast amounts of money oppressing people who are fleeing horrible situations they now are spending money making propaganda cartoons which make Australians look like a bunch of c****.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/13/asylum-seekers-graphic-campaign

Budget emergency!



Edit: Also the liberals are a broad church including tobacco company executives.


http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-liberal-party-preselects-tobacco-executive-james-keulemans-for-woollahra-council-20140213-32jyo.html
08:18am 14/02/14 Permalink
Viper119
Other International
2323 posts
The writer of that article thinks that's shameful, but not the actual physical oppression and horrendous treatment of asylum seekers, truly Australia is some kind of joke now?
08:33am 14/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15167 posts
http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/Storyboard-Afghanistan.pdf


That is the link to the awesome comic.

Spoiler:

The ending is sad

08:53am 14/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21204 posts
Tobacco is a legal product. I can never understand the attention it gets. If it's legal, leave it alone. If it's so bad, ban it. Government is great at doing that. A tobacco business executive has as much right to pre selection as any one else.

That cartoon should have explained how refugees died when their boat smashed up at Christmas Island.
09:40am 14/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10989 posts
redhat why is it Australias fault that these people have tough lives ?
There are plenty of kids and Homeless people in this Country that need help rather than the Homeless refuse of Countries half way around the World.

01:31pm 14/02/14 Permalink
taggs
6274 posts

Just going back to Slap's post about different kinds of government assistance, I'd like to point out a very common misconception: the diesel fuel rebate is not government assistance. In the past I've seen a few people on here make the claim that fuel tax rebates are a form of government assistance and this isn't really correct afaik.

To understand this you need to have an understanding of the history of the tax. The below is from a Treasury inquiry into fuel taxation undertaken in 2001:

2. Development of Australia's fuel tax system

Tax on fuel in Australia was first introduced in the early 1900s as customs and excise duties3 on transport fuels, such as petrol and diesel, to fund the development and maintenance of Australia's road network.4 The link between fuel taxes and road funding was reinforced by the provision of exemptions (and later rebates) of fuel tax for off-road users of diesel from the late 1950s, and by concessional rates of excise where fuel is used other than as a transport fuel.

...

One of the most significant expansions of fuel excise occurred in 1957 when an excise on diesel was introduced to ensure that operators of diesel vehicles contributed to the maintenance of roads. It was at this time that the first exemption for excise was introduced, as diesel excise was only applied for on-road uses of diesel. This was because a formal policy of hypothecating excise revenue for road construction was still in place.

...
In 1957, an exemption certificate scheme was set up to provide an exemption of excise for all off-road users of diesel fuel. This continued after the 1959 end to formal hypothecation of petrol and diesel excises to road funding.

In 1982, the Government abolished the exemption certificate scheme due to alleged abuse of the system, whereby on-road users were obtaining diesel that had been purchased duty free via the exemption certificate system.

The Diesel Fuel Rebate Scheme (DFRS) was introduced to replace this scheme. This effectively did two things:

• all users of diesel fuel were required to purchase duty paid fuel, with eligible users then being able to claim a rebate equivalent to the excise for certain off-road usage; and

• the rebate was limited to primary producers, miners, users of diesel for heating, lighting, hot water, air-conditioning and cooking for domestic purposes and for diesel fuel used at hospitals, nursing, and old-aged persons homes. It further restricted eligibility within these categories to only certain activities, for example, mining did not include quarrying.
http://fueltaxinquiry.treasury.gov.au/content/backgnd/002.asp

So essentially, the history of fuel taxes in Australia are that they were used to raise revenue for road construction and maintenance. This principle is clearly reinforced by the fact that when the diesel tax was introduced it was only ever applied to on-road users and off-road users were exempt (because they obviously didn't contribute to the demand for road infrastructure construction and maintenance).

Due to compliance issues with the administration of the previous certificate scheme the government moved to a rebate scheme whereby all purchasers of diesel fuel paid the full price including the tax intended for on-road users and the off-road users were then rebated when they submitted tax returns and demonstrated that their usage was for off-road purposes. This is clearly not government assistance.

To provide an analogy many people receive a payment from the government when they file their tax return because they paid more PAYG tax during the financial year than they were required to. No one would class this payment from the government to the taxpayer as government assistance because the tax payer is simply receiving what they are rightfully entitled to under current legislation. The only reason they initially paid more than they were obligated to is due to the how the administration of PAYG tax takes place. The diesel fuel tax rebate works on the same principle.

As a side note, mining companies are not the only people who this tax rebate affects. It applies to all off-road users of diesel fuel such as agriculture, fishing, forestry, marine/rail transport, electricity generation, construction, manufacturing, etc.

That's my understanding of how it works though I'm not a tax accountant. If there are any out there I'm happy to be corrected on the details.
01:32pm 14/02/14 Permalink
Azaria
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory
1220 posts
That sounds pretty bang on as a summary from my experience.

I'm not an accountant but a contracts admin and when doing remote project work (civil+resi) all fuel purchased was then reconciled against machine hours/distance travelled and we submitted this for the diesel rebate.

Additionally, different works (be it on road or offroad etc) attracted a different rebate percentage.
02:21pm 14/02/14 Permalink
carson
Melbourne, Victoria
2331 posts
http://i.imgur.com/eDhb1iZ.jpg

Oh, but let's not leave out the gutting of the NBN, which creates skilled jobs. In Vic, deciding to make roads rather than rail, again, creating more long term jobs.

Plus, good ol' Tone's and his tenure as opposition where his only policy was "No".
04:08pm 14/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
806 posts
The Coalitions infrastructure program was taken to the election as part of their campaign and he was elected on it. I love how you acknowledge his governments plans to fund major road projects in 1 line and then proceed to churn out the classic "they don't have any policies" parrot line in the next.
04:27pm 14/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1734 posts
Carbon Price - Abbott could reduce it to 0%, which is in the legislation, but he hasn't done that. He wants to reduce the minimum tax rate back to 6k per year which is part of the carbon price legislation

Mining Tax - Well the tax is on super profits when mines don't have super profits they don't pay the tax.

Red Tape - Yes, much better to destroy the environment instead. Climate change is crap.

Roads - Not much point building roads when there aren't any jobs. 54,000 jobs lost (1 ever 3 minutes) since LNP came to power.

Productivity- Much better having corrupt business that use unqualified 457 employees.
05:43pm 14/02/14 Permalink
Mosfx
Gold Coast, Queensland
1878 posts

I just read this...

The Abbott government is considering a major crackdown on online piracy, including forcing internet service providers to block websites that allow users to illegally stream or download movies, music and television shows.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/george-brandis-signals-government-crackdown-on-online-piracy-20140214-32q62.html#ixzz2tHFlckZ5


F*** OFF MY INTERNETz fix the problem why people resort to illegal downloading


05:59pm 14/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1242 posts
Hi faceman why can we not help both? Is it refugees vs Australia's poorest?

How about we stop spending so much money protecting our precious borders and spend it on those homeless kids I can tell you're deeply passionate about.
09:25pm 14/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
807 posts

Roads - Not much point building roads when there aren't any jobs. 54,000 jobs lost (1 ever 3 minutes) since LNP came to power.


Are you actually going to claim that there is no jobs in the country because 54,000 jobs have been lost? Wow. Last time i checked, there was more than 54,000 jobs in the country. Also peoples cars dont magically disappear once they lose their job.

The increase in the unemployment rate was budgeted for and forecast under the Labor government. It's dishonest to try to pretend that its the result of the new governments policies.

I look forward to the Coalitions first budget. Cut waste, fund infrastructure which will create jobs and cut redtape that will create and save jobs.


How about we stop spending so much money protecting our precious borders and spend it on those homeless kids I can tell you're deeply passionate about.


Sounds good, just leave our borders wide open for illegal fishing, illegal people smugglers, illegal drug trafficking, foreign invasion and everything else. Anyone and everyone can just simply fly here without a visa and without any checks or sail here.

What could possibly go wrong?
10:01pm 14/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21206 posts
The government should just print money and pay for everyone's job. Just like that dude on QANDA,said.
10:36pm 14/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15173 posts
6.1% unemployment is actually pretty good. Australia has been very lucky to have strong employment for a long time.

There may be a bit of ambiguity in that figure since its definition has changed over time, I'm betting in such a way to make it look better than what the old methods used to say.
10:56pm 14/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6720 posts
The unemployment rate in reality is much higher because of all of the fiddling with it over the years.

If you work for 1 hour a week you are not classed as unemployed.
11:13pm 14/02/14 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1735 posts

Are you actually going to claim that there is no jobs in the country because 54,000 jobs have been lost? Wow. Last time i checked, there was more than 54,000 jobs in the country. Also peoples cars dont magically disappear once they lose their job.

The increase in the unemployment rate was budgeted for and forecast under the Labor government. It's dishonest to try to pretend that its the result of the new governments policies.

I look forward to the Coalitions first budget. Cut waste, fund infrastructure which will create jobs and cut redtape that will create and save jobs.


Carbon Price, Mining Tax, Red Tape, Productivity

Glad you completely ignored four of my responses which just proves you are a mexican looking for a new road through footescray



I see Jellyfish Joe screamed so loud about a budget crisis, which you think will solve the increasing unemployment rate, that he increased the debt post 30 September by 311 billion.
11:52pm 14/02/14 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
4824 posts
Someones ban just ended


hopefully not long till his mother bans him again for not cleaning his room
12:01am 15/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1082 posts

oh oh tones is busted:

Indonesia says it will raise the Abbott Government's asylum seeker policy with the United States during official talks next week.
Jakarta has stepped up its protest to the Coalition's boat turn-back policy, calling in the Australian ambassador in Jakarta for a meeting with a senior official.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-14/australias-ambassador-in-jakarta-summoned-by-indonesian-governm/5261466

We all know how much the Libs want Australia to be littleUSA


01:38pm 15/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21212 posts
someone hates strong borders methinks
02:07pm 15/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6726 posts
03:35pm 15/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
812 posts
Oh god! Indonesia is telling on us! "I'm telling the United States on you!"

It's funny because the U.S will simply tell them to f*** off. The U.S is tougher on illegals than we are.
04:11pm 15/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1067 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Stupid image macro
Send Private Message
05:41pm 15/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
88 posts
they're not illegals or invaders or anything else, they're refugees - people desperately seeking help.

But all these brown people look the same to a lot of aussies. I mean, they're definitely not white, are they kids?

It's sad because in reality they're all pink on the inside. Just ask our navy personnel!
08:56pm 15/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
89 posts
So your comment is too broad to be acceptable.
I don't understand


I know it's a bit late but I ahven't had a chance to respond to this.

There is an inevitable and causal relationship between wages and sales. The cycle of money, some call it. In market theory, the cycle is supposed to be perfect. Wages = sales; sales = wages; we all live happily ever after.

So no, the comment is not too broad.

If you can understand how a market works even in its simplest form it should be obvious why sales are required to be greater than wages (and I explained why this is earlier and frankly it really is basic arithmetic).

If not for our current level of consumer debt, we wouldn't have a functioning economy. EG if people didn't constantly take on greater and greater mortgages, property values would stop increasing. This means there would be no investment in property - no jobs, no profits, no new homes, nothing. We'd lose the backbone of our economy.

The size of mortgages must constantly increase (relative to wages), which means consumer debt must constantly increase, which also means the feasibility of home or property ownership must constantly decrease, otherwise our economy fails.

Blaming consumers means you are detaching one half of the cycle (wages) and saying it exists and functions without being affected by the other half. Suggesting that a product can be consitently sold below its cost price is the exact same thing but done to the other half of the cycle (sales).

And also to be frank, besides having to change my name, it's become obvious that the reason neither of you are really grasping what I'm talking about is not just because I'm not very good at explaining things but at least partly because you're both talking out of your respective anus-like orifaces.
09:18pm 15/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6727 posts
Dont kid yourself they want teh welfarez. That's why they bypass multiple safe but poor countries to get here.

Before you argue with me put yourself in their position:

- Spend the rest of your life living in a s***hole country with extreme poverty or risk it all on a trip to welfare land.

I know if it was me I'd be selling my soul to the first people smuggler I could find and jumping on that rickety boat.

So lets call it what it is: economic refugees

Although, the border protection policies seem harsh they are saving lives. If we go back to being a 'soft-touch' we would be swamped with economic refugees most of wwhom would drown on their way here.

Time to take off the rose-coloured glasses.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:24:12 15/Feb/14
09:20pm 15/02/14 Permalink
Roonee
Perth, Western Australia
90 posts
bypassing "multiple safe but poor countries to get here" just possibly suggests that they are seeking a better standard of living. Why wouldn't they? and what's so wrong with that?

The fact that you need to pluck this notion of welfare out of the air and attach it to them suggests that you are desperate to see them in a negative light for some alterior reason... some might suggest that reason is racism or ignorance, but really it's about defining yourself socially. Refugees and war and misery don't really concern you, you just want someone to argue with and someone else agree with so you know who you are. But don't worry, the other side is just as guilty.

What we call 'politics' or 'political issues' these days is really just a collective narcissism constantly reinforcing itself.
09:46pm 15/02/14 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6728 posts
wow that's deep.

I've seen the error of my ways.

* sleep *
10:33pm 15/02/14 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
11458 posts
I'm just going to chime in and put down a rule for all these political threads: no more image macros. They are pointless, and make you look stupid if you can't be bothered to sum up a rebuttal. We want to encourage proper discussions on these types of topics, so just posting a "lul he mad" image doesn't really help the discussion move along. That is all.
10:46pm 15/02/14 Permalink
baz
Victoria
468 posts
.

What we call 'politics' or 'political issues' these days is really just a collective narcissism constantly reinforcing itself.


Sounds legit.
Ill go with that

Got no time for collective narcissism's
No time at all.

Actually my teusday nights are free atm so I might run around the local train station king hitting collective narcissists.
Ill have to do it after dinner at around 8 o clock.
11:01pm 15/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
10996 posts
"After 6 years of incompetence, Australia finally has a Federal Government led by an adult" - James Allan, Professor of Law at The University of Queensland.


This guy will be on Q&A this week.
Should be an interesting show.
03:57pm 16/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
816 posts

And they are at it, ONCE AGAIN.

Asylum seekers at Manus Island's detention centre have reportedly set fire to a compound, torn down fences and destroyed tents after being told they would not be resettled in Papua New Guinea. http://www.theage.com.au/national/asylum-seekers-riot-on-manus-island-20140216-32ucz.html


I think this is the third time they have burnt the detention centre down now. But remember, they are "poor" "desperate" and "innocent" people.
03:06am 17/02/14 Permalink
Jim
UK
13474 posts
it's sad that you think that somehow makes your point for you
04:27am 17/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15187 posts
It's like he doesn't know how desperate people being forced to live in a s*** hole indefinably having their last shred of hope taken away would behave. He doesn't know that he would do the exact same thing.

I think he needs to read more books.
08:42am 17/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19243 posts
doesn't matter;

won election
11:25am 17/02/14 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
6238 posts
I'm just going to chime in and put down a rule for all these political threads: no more image macros. They are pointless, and make you look stupid if you can't be bothered to sum up a rebuttal. We want to encourage proper discussions on these types of topics, so just posting a "lul he mad" image doesn't really help the discussion move along. That is all.

Can you also include the f*****g retarded labour/lib propaganda pictures that people are posting?
01:03pm 17/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
817 posts


Can you also include the f*****g retarded labour/lib propaganda pictures that people are posting?


They aren't "propaganda" if they are factual and have a source.

Asylum seekers in Manus Island used pieces of bunk beds as weapons in battles with guards, destroyed fences and pulled down light poles as tensions escalated to new heights in the detention centre.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/beds-smashed-as-asylum-seekers-on-manus-island-battle-with-guards-20140217-32vof.html#ixzz2tY9xUN5f


I'm sure these "innocent" and "poor" people would be model citizens of our country. It's completely normal to brandish weapons in a protest, right?
02:53pm 17/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1283 posts
If they don't give the facts in their full context and are in a snippet with a picture of a polly looking sinister or regal, they are precisely propaganda.
03:38pm 17/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1246 posts
04:36pm 17/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1088 posts
Dont kid yourself they want teh welfarez. That's why they bypass multiple safe but poor countries to get here.
Before you argue with me put yourself in their position:
- Spend the rest of your life living in a s***hole country with extreme poverty or risk it all on a trip to welfare land.
I know if it was me I'd be selling my soul to the first people smuggler I could find and jumping on that rickety boat.
So lets call it what it is: economic refugees


That is very cynical. The problem is if you want to look at the world that way of course you can and it will work. It does not make it correct however just because that framing works. For example lets say you are married. Lets also say you are independently wealthy. I have no idea if you are. But i could say:

"Dont kid yourself your wife wanted teh moniez. That's why she bypassed multiple poor men to marry you..
Before you argue with me put yourself in their position:
- Spend the rest of your life living in a s***hole house with extreme poverty or risk it all on a trip to rich husband land.
I know if it was me I'd be selling my soul to the first rich man I could find and jumping on that rickety bed
So lets call it what it is: gold diggers"

You see. Did your wife just marry you for money? You cant prove she did or she didnt but you might not like to think that way. Who will ever know? There are no difference in the examples. Its just hype and speculation and casting s*** in the worst light to make a point. Being cynical works every time when looking at motivation for the human race. You cant even argue against it because even the most noble selfless acts could be painted in a base negative light. Context is hard to prove when emotions, thoughts and feelings are the discussion point.

I like to think refugees come to Australia because we are good people with a good country and people want to be a part of our success. You might say im framing it with "rose tinted" glasses. Id say your glasses are "s*** brown" like your heart.
05:09pm 17/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11001 posts
Climate sceptic to head Abbott review into renewable energy target


...and Loving it.

05:27pm 17/02/14 Permalink
Eorl
Brisbane, Queensland
11463 posts
If they don't give the facts in their full context and are in a snippet with a picture of a polly looking sinister or regal, they are precisely propaganda.

Those ones I will remove, because its just useless. If you have the full source, post and summarise alongside your input, don't just post an image and rely on it alone to broaden the discussion. This doesn't include graphs and such though, but do be mindful of posting sources with those.
05:29pm 17/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1567 posts
^ I love the pride you have in your absolute ignorance Faceman.
05:29pm 17/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21229 posts
you make it sound like a person putting an alternative argument is heretic^
07:00pm 17/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15190 posts
This should have 2 people heading the review. A skeptic and a non-skeptic so they can balance out, its obviously biased to have one of either doing it and you'd be hard-pressed finding someone who is totally impartial.
08:54pm 17/02/14 Permalink
Malthius
Brisbane, Queensland
1209 posts
This should have 2 people heading the review. A skeptic and a non-skeptic so they can balance out, its obviously biased to have one of either doing it and you'd be hard-pressed finding someone who is totally impartial.

That would be better than the current situation, but still exhibits false balance.
11:43am 19/02/14 Permalink
Mordecai
Victoria
1628 posts
Dont kid yourself they want teh welfarez. That's why they bypass multiple safe but poor countries to get here.

Before you argue with me put yourself in their position:

- Spend the rest of your life living in a s***hole country with extreme poverty or risk it all on a trip to welfare land.

I know if it was me I'd be selling my soul to the first people smuggler I could find and jumping on that rickety boat.

So lets call it what it is: economic refugees

Although, the border protection policies seem harsh they are saving lives. If we go back to being a 'soft-touch' we would be swamped with economic refugees most of wwhom would drown on their way here.

Time to take off the rose-coloured glasses.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:24:12 15/Feb/14

Brool is on welfare (or was, got a job yet Brool?). Should we put him on some island and deny him access to mainland Australia?
12:43pm 19/02/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14724 posts
We want to encourage proper discussions on these types of topics, so just posting a "lul he mad" image doesn't really help the discussion move along. That is all.

Yeh good luck with that. These threads used to be kind of awful, but these days are the a******* of the entire internet.
12:54pm 19/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19260 posts
u mad hoggy?
01:05pm 19/02/14 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
14725 posts
Always bro.
01:25pm 19/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11003 posts
Hoggy is angry, like an old man trying to send back cold soup at a deli.

laff at Craig Thomson, so many workers on the lowest wages paying fees to a Union that tolerates reps buying Whores, dirty movies, booze, who cares its not our money !

What other dirty secrets lay in the Union histories of Labors current crop of Ex-Union leaders and ex-union Lawyers ?
Bring on the Royal Commission.
01:32pm 19/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1249 posts
Hoggy is angry, like an old man trying to send back cold soup at a deli.

laff at Craig Thomson, so many workers on the lowest wages paying fees to a Union that tolerates reps buying Whores, dirty movies, booze, who cares its not our money !

What other dirty secrets lay in the Union histories of Labors current crop of Ex-Union leaders and ex-union Lawyers ?
Bring on the Royal Commission.


Yeah he was guilty of withdrawing around 10K of funds that were misussed and should be punished for it. In fact I think all politicians that misuse about 10k of other people's funds for selfish reasons should be punished.
01:52pm 19/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1098 posts
Many politicians only in the job for the fat perks and fat non disclosure discrepancy funds? Get out of here.

They are all in the job to make Australia a better place and help out the poor helpless average Australian from purely Right Intention.

Here is an idea: Lets make all politicians and government bureaucrats earn what is the equivalent of welfare but provide them with free public transport and free public housing and food stamps to use and a library card to entertain so they have little to no expenses so don't need money. And since public housing and transport and welfare etc are all wonderful and generous there should be no complaints. Well there might be some complaints but clearly they would only be from those entering public life because they are interested in gaining the a fore mentioned fat perks and fat non disclosure discrepancy funds. And those types of people in government we can do without.

At worst they cant be any worse than the current mob and they will cost a very much less to boot!

To make sure we get the right sorts make a uni program for those wishing to be in government that goes for 5 years and teaches things like ethics etc and make it that those who do go into government cannot ever have dealings direct with business to prevent corruption but should the person retire from government they get their perks for life after some term of service.

A bit like the Glass Bead Game meets Plato's Republic.
03:07pm 19/02/14 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
11005 posts
Thomsons activities were before he became a Pollie.
09:00pm 19/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
822 posts

The unions are Labors power base. Most Labor politicians are past union hacks.

I wonder if Indonesia will be greatful that Australia is actually slashing then umber of asylum seekers arriving in Indonesia thanks to our policy?

AUSTRALIA’S crackdown on boatpeople has slashed the number of asylum-seekers arriving in Indonesia, new UN refugee agency data shows.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/asylum-flow-to-indonesia-slashed-says-un/story-fn9hm1gu-1226832129574#


01:34am 20/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21236 posts
Or maybe all of the very serious humanitarian crises driving refugee numbers have stopped?

Remember when the Greens said Howard's immigration policy had nothing to do with reduced arrivals, world conflict was coincidentally low during the Howard Government and then conflict (and thus refugees) skyrocketed just after Kevin scrapped those laws.

ahhhhhh
01:13pm 20/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
823 posts
Humanitarian crises must some how stop when the government implements good policy and closes the back door. Convenient. The cherry on top of OSB is that it's stopping arrivals in 2 countries

It would be interesting to some how get data about these would be "asylum seekers" to see if they try to go to another country or if they just say "can't get into Australia, f*** it" We do know people from Iran and Afghanistan are literally surrounded by numerous safe signatory countries. Plenty of options.
02:16pm 20/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1103 posts

I believe that in order to govern well you don't just need authority you need moral authority. The liberals are a morally bankrupt government and they are taking Australia's reputation as a moral country (well trying to be) with them.

Mr Abbott said the Australian government won't be deterred or intimidated by anyone to back away from its strong border protection stance.
"We will not succumb to pressure, to moral blackmail," Mr Abbott said.
"We will ensure these camps are run fairly, if necessary firmly."
A 24-year-old Iranian asylum seeker died after Monday night's riot in which 76 other asylum seekers were also injured, with five requiring medical evacuations.
Operation Sovereign Borders commander Lieutenant General Angus Campbell is due to assess security measures on the island on Thursday.
He will be backed by additional security staff as conflicting reports continue to circulate about what sparked the riot.
A deputy secretary from the immigration department has also been sent to Manus Island to carry out a proper analysis, Mr Abbott said.
The prime minister maintained Australian authorities acted swiftly to secure the centre after the disturbances on Sunday and Monday.
The centre has resumed operations and asylum seekers are being properly fed and cared for, Mr Abbott said.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/02/20/02/04/top-military-man-due-on-manus-island
Properly fed and cared for? Are these people or pets? In fact scrap that with this governments history of animal abuses on their watch they probably wouldn't fare any better as animals.

Moral blackmail? If you mean being asked to do what is morally correct then yes a government should be "blackmailed" to act in a moral and ethical manner


02:23pm 20/02/14 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
1252 posts
Thomsons activities were before he became a Pollie.


So misuse of funds after you become a pollie is acceptable? I am glad we have cleared that up.

Humanitarian crises must some how stop when the government implements good policy and closes the back door. Convenient. The cherry on top of OSB is that it's stopping arrivals in 2 countries

It would be interesting to some how get data about these would be "asylum seekers" to see if they try to go to another country or if they just say "can't get into Australia, f*** it" We do know people from Iran and Afghanistan are literally surrounded by numerous safe signatory countries. Plenty of options.


It is funny that when you artificially create horrible conditions that people don't want to come to those horrible conditions. Here's another policy that would work, create a hunger games type scenario for asylum seekers, no boats then either.

F*****g morons.
02:51pm 20/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
563 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Way too much dumb
Send Private Message
04:13pm 20/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1569 posts
I love the new NBN map and I just love how it's so accurate in it's data considering it places me in a HFC "A" area when there is no HFC to connect to. I had to go satellite dish to receive Foxtel. Oh goody looks like I get shafted. Well done Malcolm, well done.

http://images.smh.com.au/2013/04/10/4178783/tincancut-300x0.jpg
04:21pm 20/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1287 posts
For a start I wouldn't place loads of faith in the stats supplied by a single Australian headline. What do they mean by 70%. Does that mean that 70% less people are coming or does it mean Indonesia has taken a leaf out of our book and just started processing way less?

Besides which, asylum seekers didn't tend to register in Jarkarta, they were hopping boats to Australia as I'm sure you'll remember.

I've no doubt the flow will slow down but pointing out they won't subject themselves to the conditions of manus island *in no way* undermines the legitimacy of their asylum claims. It also *in no way* shows that they are surrounded by safe havens.

All it proves is that we have created conditions that are no safer than those they are fleeing.

Maybe you and Rulez can fellate the dumb out of each other. I'm out.
04:34pm 20/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1570 posts
The NBN FAQ on how they calculate your current services quality:

Why have you given me an estimated median ADSL speed that is higher or lower than my actual ADSL speed?

The estimated median peak ADSL speed for your local area is based on the modelled speed for each house in your area with access to ADSL services.
This means that not every house in your area will experience this speed and will probably be higher or lower than the median speed.
Speeds achievable over ADSL are impacted by a broader range of factors than this calculation includes (a factor of speed vs distance) such as copper grade and quality, in-home wiring, customer equipment, interference from other devices, software, the broadband plan purchased, how each service provider designs its network (including congestion in the network) amongst other factors.
and there's more:

What methodology was used to calculate ratings?

The analysis of broadband availability and quality considers three categories of broadband delivery separately: fixed broadband (including fibre-to-the-premises, fibre-to-the-node, asymmetric digital subscriber line, hybrid fibre cable and fixed wireless), mobile broadband (3G and 4G) and satellite broadband.

The approach measures availability as a description of the infrastructure currently in place and the possible speeds achievable over that infrastructure as the measure of quality.

The analysis has not assessed local or temporary variations in broadband infrastructure, the services available or service quality, network dimensioning or other operational factors that are the responsibility of the individual network owner. Other factors that impact on an end user’s experience and perception of quality, such as reliability, price, value-added components to the service, weather events and mobility are also not considered in the analysis.


This is why this information is totally f*****g nonsense:

"For this analysis, fixed broadband quality is measured on the possible speeds achievable over the infrastructure that is available in the local area.?


Well that makes the quality rating useless, what about reliability?

Imagine if I used the same modelling approach to my corporate clients, I'd be unemployed in a blink of an eye.
04:37pm 20/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1107 posts
PornoPete why mention me at all if its just going to be abusive? I respond and then we have unproductive posts about who is the bigger dumbc***. Half the time im saying the same thing you are. You just have a personal dislike for me in general so even if i am 100% agreeing with you then you will still call it "dumb".

The other times im more looking at whole systems of how things are now and how they could be radically changed. The whole system not one piece at a time but left wing 3rd option stuff. For example that post from this page on just Throwing out how we select and elect and maintain government and start again.

The funny thing is so many people whinge about "oh i dont know who to vote for or im so disillusioned because both Libs and Labor are c**** there is no options". But if you try to talk a 3rd way you get blank looks and "thats wired or dumb" comments. People want something different but dont want change. Mhmmm

While i can see why you might not see the value in the 2nd types of things i tend to post, as it is the kind of "what if" scenario more suited to philosophy and musing, and you seem like a straight shooter unimaginative by the number type id appreciate if you kindly f***ed off and let me enjoy my sense that while we have a system and we must work with that system it is possible, i mean we able able to do it: chat about alternatives.

TLDR: I find you way more "full of dumb" for just accepting "how things are" and never suggesting any alternatives or anything that might be considered even remotely like an original thought. You dont have the courage to just speak your mind with your own idea's. Imagine if all people acted like you or how you seem to want people to act? So until you can say something even a little controversial or essentially non conformist that you have come up with yourself (no matter how crazy or silly) maybe you should keep your clever programed to accept robot remarks to yourself.
05:25pm 20/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
825 posts
I love the new NBN map and I just love how it's so accurate in it's data considering it places me in a HFC "A" area when there is no HFC to connect to. I had to go satellite dish to receive Foxtel. Oh goody looks like I get shafted. Well done Malcolm, well done.


I can't see anywhere on the NBN map where it mentions anything about HFC. It only lists areas fibre has passed and where building has commenced. So if it does mention something about HFC it means its being build if its displayed on the map.

I'm not surprised you struggle with reading a basic map.
05:41pm 20/02/14 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
21238 posts
I find you way more "full of dumb" for just accepting "how things are" and never suggesting any alternatives or anything that might be considered even remotely like an original thought.


the problem is that you think this presents an opportunity for a Russell Brand "tear down the establishment" or "just don't vote, it won't make a difference anyway" rant.
07:04pm 20/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1288 posts
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

--Mark Twain
07:56pm 20/02/14 Permalink
Tollaz0r!
Brisbane, Queensland
15222 posts
O quality, Our treatment of Asylum Seekers has even brought China to criticise us, China!

You know we've hit rock bottom if North Korea criticises us.
10:01pm 20/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
565 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Way too much dumb, yet again
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01:04am 21/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1571 posts
I can't see anywhere on the NBN map where it mentions anything about HFC. It only lists areas fibre has passed and where building has commenced. So if it does mention something about HFC it means its being build if its displayed on the map.

I'm not surprised you struggle with reading a basic map.
You're a knob and guess what I'm not at all surprised.

I'm referring to the new map introduced by Malcolm and his department listing the quality of broadband in Australia which is to guide the NBN on prioritisation of rollout to alleviate in Malcolm's words "blackspots". Thing is it's so wrong it isn't funny it's pathetic.

https://www.mybroadband.communications.gov.au/

as quoted by the website itself and promoted by Malcolm Turnball himself:

To assist with the prioritisation of under-served areas, the Government asked the Department of Communications to undertake an analysis of broadband availability and quality in all areas of Australia.
09:50am 21/02/14 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
19271 posts
should have left it in SFB, it was only the truth
10:10am 21/02/14 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1572 posts
I know pave but I thought I'd be a little kinder due to his obvious illness.
10:15am 21/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1115 posts

'Deceit, often built on false promises, is a marker of our own time.'

Seems like the Murdoch media conspiracy skeptics and the UN-Austrlian ABC folks have been a little quiet in the thread so it seems like a good place to start is from the start. So lets look at some history of the ABC:

Much of my post was sourced from an article: Aunty's enemies: ABC still under attack after 80 years published Date February 8, 2014 by June Factor. Quotes from there unless stipulated.

- Eighty-two years ago, a conservative prime minister launched Australia's independent national public broadcaster, committed, in Lyons' words, to ''serve all sections and to satisfy the diversified tastes of the public''.

- ABC was built as an Australian model of the BBC.

- ABC as public broadcaster had enemies from its inception despite the genuine commitment of many conservatives: Robert Menzies, then a Melbourne barrister, had led a delegation to Lyons, lobbying for the ABC's establishment.

- Sir Keith Murdoch, father of Rupert, newspaper proprietor with interests in several commercial radio stations enemy from the start with:.

For three years, he and other newspaper owners insisted that the ABC be restricted to no more than 200 words a day of overseas news, and limited its presentation of news bulletins to five minutes in the evening - but not before 7.50pm, by which time it was thought people would have finished reading their newspapers. When, by 1936, the ABC had begun to develop an independent news service, Murdoch was greatly displeased. His newspapers demanded a reduction in the ABC's income from licence fees so that it would, in Inglis' summary, ''stop competing improperly with private enterprise''.


- Herbert Brookes vice-chairman of the ABC, - a leading conservative and son-in-law of Alfred Deakin, Australia's second prime minister - attacks, in a speech, Murdoch for self-interest and attempts to cripple the ABC's news service as well as his ''conspiracy of silence'' about the success of the ABC.

- Knowing Murdoch was unlikely to publish this attack, Brookes arranged for a recording of his speech to be broadcast on the ABC. ''ABC takes the gloves off'' was a headline in the next issue of Smith's Weekly.

- 1996, the Liberal-National Coalition's shadow minister for communications, Senator Richard Alston, presented the soon-to-be voting public with a manifesto on the ABC, titled ''Better Communications''.

Senator Richard Alston earlier role had been chairman of a Senate select committee which reported on ABC management and operations in 1995, and recommended against government interference in the ABC and emphasised the need for government to properly fund existing and expanding ABC activities.

The 'Better Communications'' manifisto included
- glowing praise of every aspect of the ABC, including Radio Australia.
- promised that there would be no cuts to the broadcaster's budget during the first term of a Coalition government.

A few months after the Coalition won the election, cabinet was discussing which of two proposals for severe cuts to the ABC's budget the government should adopt. In his submission to cabinet, Alston favoured the lesser option - a 12 per cent cut - because it would arouse less public opposition than the 20 per cent cut favoured by the Finance Department, and it would still ''give us the opportunity to influence future ABC functions and activities more directly''. And so it came to pass. Among the casualties was Radio Australia, which lost its overseas transmitters, two foreign languages and a significant proportion of its staff and devoted overseas audience.


- 2006 KPMG report commissioned by the government.

KPMG report stated:
- ABC was performing financially ''as well if not better than'' commercial media companies
- Recommended an extra $125 million - 7 per cent - in the next three years in order that ''the ABC could sustain its present range, quality and mix of outputs''.
- ABC's own request was for $115.2 million.

The government's actual contribution in 2006 ''was rather more modest'' than the ABC's figure.

Now Rupert Murdoch - and some of his journalists - are questioning the very existence of a publicly funded ABC. A new Coalition government, having promised before last year's election that there would be no funding cuts to the national broadcaster, has already instituted two inquiries into its management and financial operations. The large majority of the population which values the ABC may soon grow restless.

Perhaps the government might pause and consider the words of Terry Lane, one of the ABC's most admired interviewers, who retired some years ago. Writing in The Age in 2003, Lane remarked: ''Taxes are the way we buy civilisation, and public broadcasting is an institution of civilisation.''
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/auntys-enemies-abc-still-under-attack-after-80-years-20140207-3278b.html

Seems this has been going on since dot
02:29pm 21/02/14 Permalink
BroolStoryCo
Melbourne, Victoria
566 posts
This post has been removed.
Reason: Dumb
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02:31pm 21/02/14 Permalink
RuleofBooKz
Melbourne, Victoria
1116 posts
The post was in point form for the most part. Unless you are psychic and can tell what a post consists of with reading it how are you to judge what is and isn't "random ranting"? So i do not take your TLDR "in good faith".

Learn to skim read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Skim_read
From time to time, a long talk-page comment or conversation will cause one or more editors to state that it was TL;DR; so long that they didn't read it. In such situations, it is usually helpful to summarise the key points. However, there are occasions where a comment or discussion is difficult to effectively summarise, perhaps due to the difficulty in doing so neutrally, or because of the complexity of the matter being discussed. In such cases, it may be worthwhile to encourage these people to skim read it.

A decision to respond to TL;DR with a link to this page should not be taken lightly. It should generally only be done after concluding that a summary is not feasible.

If you do quote this page, you should always attempt to explain why reading the discussion or comment in full will be of particular value. Remember, in the vast majority of cases, a person stating that something was too long to read has done so in good faith; it will not be obvious to them why they should invest up to several minutes in reading.
03:10pm 21/02/14 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
1290 posts
Note the middle sentence....
03:52pm 21/02/14 Permalink
system
Internet
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03:52pm 21/02/14 Permalink
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