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a government whose spending is outta control
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
876 posts
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/hey-big-spender-howard-the-king-of-the-loose-purse-strings-20130110-2cj32.html

AUSTRALIA'S most needlessly wasteful spending took place under the John Howard-led Coalition government rather than under the Whitlam, Rudd or Gillard Labor governments, an international study has found.
The International Monetary Fund examined 200 years of government financial records across 55 leading economies



So much for the economic champions under Howard.

I'm glad we have a lot to show for it like all those national infrastructure things he did with all of the loose cash getting about.
08:58am 11/01/13 Permalink
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08:58am 11/01/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34921 posts
OHNOS, shirley that can't be right!!!!

i dont remember jhow giving me any ruddbux either!!!!
09:12am 11/01/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
877 posts
He secured your baby bonus so you could buy a flat screen tele matey.

Also he would have given you money to "help you out" with your first home which was already inflated in price due to these handouts.

$900 in ruddbux pales in comparison to johnnybux.
09:24am 11/01/13 Permalink
E.T.
Queensland
4493 posts
Thread typowned incoming...
09:33am 11/01/13 Permalink
skythra
Brisbane, Queensland
6305 posts
Thread typowned incoming...

Huh? Who's doesn't fit in this circumstance therefore whose does?
09:55am 11/01/13 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6155 posts
Seems to match up around the wars. I guess Wars are a waste of money, who knew?
10:00am 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
810 posts
The Rudd government's stimulus spending during the financial crisis doesn't rate as profligate because the measure makes allowance for spending needed to stabilise the economy.


That's a pretty big spend to not include. The NBN was part of that and I don't think you can construe that as stabilising the economy, considering no actual paid work got done until the worst of the GFC was over.

Meh if you got the money why not spend it?
10:08am 11/01/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34922 posts
infi told me (repeatedly) that governments shouldnt spend money, they need to have money in the bank, or something.
10:11am 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
811 posts
Yeah that would be the 20 billion surplus.

They included 2.3 billion expansion of the auslink road program as "reckless" spending for Howard. If you can explain to me how expanding the national highway program in one of the most sparsely populated countries on earth is reckless or loose with the purse strings, I'm all ears.

They also included the water buy back scheme for the Murray river.

I would imagine Infi's point is more along the lines of, if you can provide all your *essential* services and still produce a surplus you should tax less. The government stockpiling money is against neo-conservatism as I understand it.
10:34am 11/01/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13344 posts
Meh if you got the money why not spend it?

I just ...
10:34am 11/01/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9754 posts
The IMF is related to the World Bank under The UN.
The ALP is the Party that represents their interests in Australia.
The IMF is the grim reaper that comes to your door when you cant pay your bills.
If they give you the thumbs up you should be worried, very worried.



12:17pm 11/01/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1304 posts
The IMF is related to the World Bank under The UN.
The ALP is the Party that represents their interests in Australia.
The IMF is the grim reaper that comes to your door when you cant pay your bills.
If they give you the thumbs up you should be worried, very worried.


and welcome to querulous paranoia by Faceplant the veggie.
12:34pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Tiny
Brisbane, Queensland
3341 posts
oh joy , another thread of Liberal vs Labor. Just what we need.
12:37pm 11/01/13 Permalink
sLaps_Forehead
Brisbane, Queensland
6231 posts
* waits for infi smackdown *
01:30pm 11/01/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19407 posts
hmmm now who paid down all the australian govenment debt, and then who blew it out again by double what it originally was.... hmmm
01:34pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5585 posts
oh joy , another thread of Liberal vs Labor. Just what we need.


Yeah but the matter wasn't settled in the last thread as to which was better.
This thread is sure to settle it once and for all though.
01:42pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
6743 posts
hmmm now who paid down all the australian govenment debt...
China.
01:52pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34925 posts
Yeah but the matter wasn't settled in the last thread as to which was better.
This thread is sure to settle it once and for all though.


i personally think we did settle it. i raised some very valid and well thought out points.
02:26pm 11/01/13 Permalink
redhat
Sydney, New South Wales
878 posts
hmmm now who paid down all the australian govenment debt, and then who blew it out again by double what it originally was.... hmmm


http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013/01/howards-legacy-questioned-by-imf/

The Howard Government presided over the biggest private debt boom in Australia’s history and, in its later years, one of the biggest terms-of-trade booms. These two events meant that the Australian economy grew strongly and fostered strong growth in both employment and incomes. Importantly, it also flooded the Government with tens of billions of dollars worth of extra taxation revenue – via increased personal, company and capital gains taxes (as well as lower welfare spending) – which it spent on a range of questionable initiatives and middle class welfare.

Put simply, it was easy for the Howard Government to look like sound financial managers when, through good luck, its revenue base expanded inexorably thanks to the unsustainable expansion in private debt and the once-in-a-century commodity boom.
02:54pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34926 posts
ouch
02:56pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Raven
Melbourne, Victoria
7594 posts
You have to spend money to make money, and that's exactly what happened with the Howard Government. What you call "wasteful" I call "you're a biased, blind labour-loving d******* who loves ignoring context, Mr Author"
03:13pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
812 posts
Put simply, it was easy for the Howard Government to look like sound financial managers when, through good luck, its revenue base expanded inexorably thanks to the unsustainable expansion in private debt and the once-in-a-century commodity boom.


NEWSFLASH: GOVERNMENT AWASH IN MONEY SPENDS MORE THAN GOVERNMENT WITH NO MONEY.

I really don't get this. If you have extra money and you speculate on something, its hardly 'out of control' or 'reckless'

It's when you speculate based on debt that its an issue. They had money to spend so they spent it, with money left over to avert the worst of the GFC.

When times get tight you tighten your belt with it.

moreover accusing Howard for the boom in *PRIVATE* debt is borderline retarded.
03:45pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13349 posts
moreover accusing Howard for the boom in *PRIVATE* debt is borderline retarded.

I didn't read the link but it didn't look like they were blaming Howard for ballooning private debt.

The gist I got from the quoted text was that the Government of the day took the increased and unsustainable Government revenue from this private debt boom (taxes on economic activity that couldn't last forever) and basically dumped it into populist middle class welfare that is excruciatingly hard to unwind now that the hard times are here and these payments are included in people's everyday budgets. They also paid down Government debt which gave them tremendous political clout and armed party soldiers like infi for the next couple of decades.

The alternative was to build s***.
03:49pm 11/01/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19409 posts
it's amazing what you can find out when you read source documents instead of listening to alcoholic journalists.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm
04:00pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5586 posts
Is this the same IMF that praised the Australian government in 2007 for 'exemplary macroeconomic management'?

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pn/2007/pn07112.htm
04:23pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13350 posts
it's amazing what you can find out when you read source documents instead of listening to alcoholic journalists.http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm
They also paid down Government debt which gave them tremendous political clout and armed party soldiers like infi for the next couple of decades.

For those playing at home, be sure to pay attention to the receipts as a percentage of GDP.
04:24pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
813 posts
Yeah but RE the debt boom, what were they going to do? Not take the money?

That would be my preference to be honest, but that would involve reforming the taxation system quickly which as we have seen over the last 20 years just doesn't happen.

Howard and Costello had a s*** tonne of money, and they spent within their means, hardly irresponsible.

I agree with you for the middle class welfare s*** however. The baby bonus springs to mind.

But as I said in the original article 2.3 billion on roads was included in the spending dump. So they did build some s***. I might also note that not all infrastructure projects turn out to be a great idea. The snowy hydro scheme sounded good in principle but now we spend money for it to not make electricity. That's a big win.

Just saying they should have built stuff doesn't make it a better option.
04:28pm 11/01/13 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9755 posts
04:55pm 11/01/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19411 posts
haha Swanny is a lulzy buggar. Shame he is our treasuer.
05:00pm 11/01/13 Permalink
HurricaneJim
Brisbane, Queensland
1305 posts
Here's the economic record of Howard, Costello and the precious Coalition, remembering they rode on the back of a mining boom and no GFC:

* The biggest trade deficit ever recorded
* The longest run of successive monthly trade deficits ever recorded
* Biggest foreign debt in Australias history (number 4 in the world in dollar terms at the time)
* Highest levels of household and business debt ever recorded
* The lowest value of the AU$ (2001)
* 94% of the mining boom tax windfall frittered away in just 2.5 years
* Interest rates consistently above the OECD average
* Highest inflation in 16 years
* In mortgage rates, the highest interest component-to-average income level ever recorded
* Housing affordability the lowest ever
* Personal bankruptcies the highest in two decades
* Government investment in National Infrastructure and Tertiary Education in reverse
* Selling off Australia's Gold Reserves for $300 per ounce
06:51pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1243 posts
The Howard selloff
Melbounre Airport, Brisbane Airport, Perth Airport $3.3 billion
DASFLEET $408 million
Australian Industry Development Corporation $155 million
Australian National Railways Commission $95 million
Housing Loans Insurance Corporation $108 million
More airports (Canberra, Coolangatta, Darwin, Hobart etc) $730 million
National Transmission Network $650 million
Sydney Airport $4.2 billion
Other airports in Sydney $211 million
Comland Limited $139 million

Share offers:
Commonwealth bank $1.7 billion
CSL $300 million
Qantas $1.4 billion
Telstra 1: $14.2 billion
Telstra 2: $16 billion
Telstra 3: $15.4 billion

oh... and he sold all of Australia's gold @ less than $300 an ounce.

So the "Labor debt" after all of those years under Hawke/Keating was $56 billion and Howard sold $72 billion of government assets. "Liberal economic management" at it's finest?
06:54pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34928 posts
that doesnt sound like a very smart move.
06:57pm 11/01/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19412 posts
I get excited whenever I hear about privatisation. It means another business gets unshackled from the bureaucracy of public sector know nothings and meddling politicians. Lazy workers can finally be freed from their jobs to do something they are better suited to, and the waste of inefficient processes that go unreviewed by the lazy executives never forced to justify their own existence can finally be hacked off.

Government shouldn't own any profit making centres, because let's be honest public servants and politicians wouldn't know the first thing about making profits. Sell it all and get government focused back on service delivery.
07:04pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13352 posts
Why should the Government sell infrastructure monopolies infi? How did Australians benefit?
07:08pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
814 posts
doesn't sound like a list of super reliable facts either.

Highest number of personal bankruptcies? How in gods name is that the governments fault..

interest rates above the OECD average at the same time as inflation, there is a surprise.

Everyone is b****ing about the high AUD now. A low dollar is good for exporting. in case you missed the news China and the USA are trying as hard as they can to devalue there own currencies.

Jesus, pull the blinkers off. They weren't perfect but they weren't that bad either.

when they sold off the gold reserves what was the market value of gold Hurricane Jim?

Saying they sold it for $300 is very easily taken out of context after 5 years of GFC.
07:11pm 11/01/13 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19413 posts
because all the lazy dudes working in there with no pressure to perform, cut jobs, introduce technologies, acquire other weak business, shut down non-performing business, increase shareholder value - all the things private sector does - none of these pressures apply in the public sector, and they just stroll along in a daze, maybe get another grant or some such.

govt may raid it every now and then to prop up budgets but no one will never know how much money the monopoly could truly be making.
07:12pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
13353 posts
oh lazy workers, lol, right.
Saying they sold it for $300 is very easily taken out of context after 5 years of GFC.

I am not an economist, but isnt the whole point of a reserve to hold it?

Wouldn't you feel like a d******* to sell gold right before the GFC? Would you stand up and spruik your economic prowess for selling an asset that massively increased in value a few years later? If you were running a Government selling heaps of gold would you put it to tender?
07:24pm 11/01/13 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1358 posts
fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
07:25pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
815 posts
I am not an economist, but isnt the whole point of a reserve to hold it?

Wouldn't you feel like a d******* to sell gold right before the GFC? Would you stand up and spruik your economic prowess?


The point of a reserve is to secure a financial future. Gold may or may not be the best way to do that.

Somehow I doubt the gold reserves were sold in 2007 for $300 per ounce.
07:30pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1244 posts
Jesus, pull the blinkers off. They weren't perfect but they weren't that bad either.and neither were Hawke/Keating/Rudd/Gillard.are labor.

Remember Fraser left a 40billion deficit when he left office and put us through one of the worst recessions we'd seen too.
07:37pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2233 posts
Most of the items in HJ's list is a side effect of a Booming economy and how is spending the surplus in 2.5 years the Howard Governments fault?
07:44pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
816 posts
Have I at any point entered into labor slagging?

The only thing I pointed out was that excluding stimulus spending from "prudent economic spending" is a big step considering the amount that was spent and the scandals that have gone with several of the large projects funded by it.

Labor can spend 50+ billion and its prudent, liberal can spend 12 billion and it's reckless according to the OP.

Meanwhile one is spending in deficit the other is in surplus.

To me someone is on drugs if they can reconcile that.
08:02pm 11/01/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
17687 posts
Jesus, pull the blinkers off


haha this from sfb

classic
08:07pm 11/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
817 posts
I think he failed to quote me correctly pave.
08:17pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7651 posts
you know what happens when a listed company makes money? they give it back to the share hholders..

you gotta spend money to make money
08:28pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1245 posts
Hey numb nut paveway it's actually part of a quite from PornoPete I didn't put the tags on right cause i am using my phone to post. F***en idiot.
09:33pm 11/01/13 Permalink
paveway
Brisbane, Queensland
17689 posts
sorry bro i should have known you were mixing quotes and labor love at the same time while not quoting properly
09:55pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Some Fat Bastard
Brisbane, Queensland
1246 posts
Well I should apologize for my heavy handedness too . So sorry paveway . I am on holidays and today I've been stuck with my tree teenage kids and my sister in law's three kids under eleven years old. Talk about trying days.
10:05pm 11/01/13 Permalink
Kimbo
Melbourne, Victoria
547 posts
doesn't sound like a list of super reliable facts either.Highest number of personal bankruptcies? How in gods name is the governments fault..interest rates above the OECD average at the same time as inflation, there is a surprise.Everyone is b****ing about the high AUD now. A low dollar is good for exporting. in case you missed the news china and the USA are try hard as they can to devalue there own currencies.Jesus, pull the blinkers off. They weren't perfect but they weren't that bad either.when they sold off the gold reserves what was the market value of gold Hurricane Jim?Saying they sold it for $300 is very easily taken out of context after 5 years of GFC.


I'm wondering if selling the nations a vast majority of the stockpile of precious metal is advisable or was advisable back then. I can never understand the people who cheer and go "Swanny!" though. But then I never agreed kind of with the idea of getting paid to have children either. "One of Abbott, one for Howard and one for country." err yeah... riiigghtt.
02:05am 12/01/13 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6247 posts
either spend it, or reduce my taxes.
08:59am 12/01/13 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
3755 posts
The obvious solution is

http://www.ausparty.org.au/

Yep big bad Bobby K will solve everything!
09:09am 12/01/13 Permalink
PornoPete
Melbourne, Victoria
818 posts
I'm wondering if selling the nations a vast majority of the stockpile of precious metal is advisable or was advisable back then


It sounds like a bad idea but the idea as I said is financial security, Gold may or may not be the best way to do that. There is no prima facie reason it is *always* a bad idea to get rid of a gold reserve.

If you look back at my posts I list the baby bonus as one of the things I think was dumb spending.

either spend it, or reduce my taxes.

This.
09:11am 12/01/13 Permalink
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