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Large push from within the Queensland LNP to remove fluoride from wa...
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6959 posts
I honestly don't understand how our science eduction has failed so spectacularly to even allow these idiots to not be booed out of office. Everybody knows that dihydrogen monoxide/hydroxyl acid is the most dangerous component of our drinking water, and should be removed immediately.

First-term Nudgee LNP MP Jason Woodforth claims he has secured the backing of 31 MPs who "don't agree with mass medicating people" and want the "brain-altering poison" removed.
Despite the weight of expert opinion advocating fluoride as a crucial dental health measure, Mr Woodforth believes the problem of tooth decay could be fixed with diet rather than adding what he labelled "toxic poison" to water.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/nudgee-lnp-mp-jason-woodforth-claims-31-mps-want-fluoride-out-of-queensland-water/story-e6freoof-1226532471114
04:25pm 11/12/12 Permalink
system
Internet
--
04:25pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34716 posts
haha, that LNP! what wont they do to entertain me!?!?!

i spose a lot of LNP members are dentists, just a crafty way of getting extra business back since labor fixed all of qld's bad teeth problems.
04:59pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Zakson
Gold Coast, Queensland
316 posts
I fully support the removal of dihydrogen monoxide/hydroxyl acid from our water supply.
05:03pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34717 posts
^^ also a dentist ^^
05:04pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5498 posts
"It's not fluoride, it's fluorine. It's hydrofluorosilicic acid.
"It contains lead, arsenic and mercury. Lead in petrol and lead in paint is a toxin, same with mercury, same with arsenic so if they are no good on their own, what makes them so good in fluorine?"


Mr Woodforth is not a chemistry major, obviously.
05:09pm 11/12/12 Permalink
TufNuT
I like eel pie
Brisbane, Queensland
4026 posts
clearly we don't have enough bogans with missing teeth walking around.

I guess they stopped calling us 'the smart' state for good reason.
05:11pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34718 posts
HOW DOES GOD FEEL ABOUT US MESSING ABOUT WITH HIS WATER? I BET HES NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!
05:12pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Insom
Canada
4160 posts
i reckon he's cool with it
05:45pm 11/12/12 Permalink
cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
1828 posts
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/388965/20120928/following-harvard-university-lead-more-studies-link.htm#.UMbXZKAs2So

In all, FAN said, 34 studies now link fluoride to lower IQ levels in humans, while scores of other studies correlate fluoride to learning and memory impairment, fetal brain damage, altered neurobehavioral function and altered thyroid hormone levels


The group noted: -- One study, which was sponsored by UNICEF, found that IQ was reduced at just .88 mg/l of fluoride, a level within the "optimal" range added to U.S. drinking water systems for about 200 million Americans. -- Seven studies found reduced IQ levels among children who drank water containing between 2.1 mg/l and 4.0 mg/l, or levels that 1.4 million Americans consume daily.


but its all just quackery isnt it being that harvard and unicef arent reputable sources..

smart state indeed, feed me more iq reducing poison.
05:53pm 11/12/12 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9657 posts
Wait, so kids dont need to brush their teeth if we put Fluoride in the water ?
Why cant kids just take a Fluoride Tablet ?

we chould put a little Alcohol in the water too to relax ppl.
And some Aspirin, some anti-depressants, lets throw some vaccines in there too,
Some Vitamin C, Folic Acid.

Water should be just Water.





05:59pm 11/12/12 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3500 posts
Wait, so kids dont need to brush their teeth if we put Fluoride in the water ?
Why cant kids just take a Fluoride Tablet ?

we chould put a little Alcohol in the water too to relax ppl.
And some Aspirin, some anti-depressants, lets throw some vaccines in there too,
Some Vitamin C, Folic Acid.

Water should be just Water.


no, food and water are great ways to put things we lack into the system, fluoride is shown to reduce tooth decay (when consumed in youth)

same with salt, iodine goes into salt because when the milk producers stopped using it to clean their equipment people started to get a little iodine lacking, so it is placed into salt,

I'm sure there are other case as well, but none spring to mind
06:09pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6961 posts
HOW DOES GOD FEEL ABOUT US MESSING ABOUT WITH HIS WATER? I BET HES NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!

He actually gave a line similar to that about how nature doesn't have fluoride in water, therefore bad. Nature with all its rape and murder and fires and poison plants and death during childbirth and disease and no glasses and no surgery and dying at 26 years old, such wonderful things.

but its all just quackery isnt it being that harvard and unicef arent reputable sources..

smart state indeed, feed me more iq reducing poison.

Oh jesus, you're linking an article from natural news, i.e. the biggest source of scientifically illiterate conspiracy bulls*** about every single possible issue on the planet. The so called 'harvard' source was investigating an extremely poor and polluted part of the 3rd world with fluoride levels 20 timers higher than the known toxic dose, and from what I recall effects were actually less bad than expected for such extreme amounts. That publication in no way gained any traction in the professional community who works with and understands the problems - I mean, who are evil and corrupt and out to poison us all and don't know as well as you with your highschool science education.

Water should be just Water.

Better not treat or clean it, water should just be river run off which animals and people urinate in upstream.
06:17pm 11/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19329 posts
they should inject vitamins into the water too.
06:20pm 11/12/12 Permalink
TufNuT
I like eel pie
Brisbane, Queensland
4027 posts
but its all just quackery isnt it being that harvard and unicef arent reputable sources..


I would actually like to read the Harvard since the article is quoting people like "Fluoride Action Network" and come to my own conclusions. I don't trust any source that only quotes parts of a report.

that's exactly what pro or anti anything organisations always do its bulls***, everyone reads reports and then uses only data that justifies their position.

06:21pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6962 posts
There was no actual Harvard study from what I recall, it was actually just a meta analysis which noted that there was a remote plausible correlation between 20x higher than considered safe flouride levels in an extremely polluted and poor region of China, and a correlated lowered IQ. There were a dozen factors at play, but natural news - the internet's central spewer of bulls*** - immediately jumped on it and did a writeup discussing how science had proven that fluoride lowered IQ, then published this as a press release all over the Internet making it look like it was news.
06:28pm 11/12/12 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7015 posts
hippies n weirdos can always opt out by using a rainwater tank.
cept they prolly don't want the diseases that the chlorinated water prevent.
i want my flouride... my massive iq can take it.
06:55pm 11/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21929 posts
Some nice pandering to the anti-science community here. Seems to be the LNP's trademark.

edit: lol @ cainer
07:08pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
9845 posts
To be fair, the LNP have a heap of members who are really quite random, they never thought would win some of these seats.

And the LNP really is a party that makes no sense. Liberals and Nationals rarely agree on much once you get past the religion and skin colour topics.
07:13pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6963 posts
they should inject vitamins into the water too.

For what purpose? Afaik the human body easily gets the necessary amount of vitamins from a regular diet, hence why multivitamins are being labelled a scam and investigated by advertising standards agencies.

iodine is already added to bread, what else are people regularly missing?
07:28pm 11/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21931 posts
I think that was just infi's little attempt at a slippery slope argument akin to what faceman was saying (assuming that copius was quoting him)

Alsp, http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/consumerinformation/fortification.cfm
07:30pm 11/12/12 Permalink
defi
Wynnum, Queensland
2945 posts
My mother took fluoride tablets for my while I was in the womb. I have never had a filling or any teeth problems. I do brush my teeth regularly and always have.

I have 4 younger siblings that my mother didn't take fluoride tablets for. They all have had 5 - 6 + filling each, even when brushing regularly. My younger sister has always been crazy about her teeth, but still has fillings.

I know nothing about the side effects, but I'm glad my mother took it for me.
08:01pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
21005 posts
we chould put a little Alcohol in the water too to relax ppl.

or G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate

For what purpose? Afaik the human body easily gets the necessary amount of vitamins from a regular diet, hence why multivitamins are being labelled a scam and investigated by advertising standards agencies.iodine is already added to bread, what else are people regularly missing?

Excessive amounts of Caffeine and protein seem to be what everyone on here is missing, judging by the amount of `roid powder threads.
08:20pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3230 posts
For what purpose? Afaik the human body easily gets the necessary amount of vitamins from a regular diet, hence why multivitamins are being labelled a scam and investigated by advertising standards agencies.iodine is already added to bread, what else are people regularly missing?

Unfortunately a lot of people don't get adequate vitamins through their s***** diet, so a multi can help fill the gaps. All 3 doctors I've been to over the past few years have recommended vitamins for one thing or the other because they know I've been lacking in something and they've said they see it quite regularly.
08:22pm 11/12/12 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9658 posts
Why would a Dr tell you to take Vitamins ?
Surely he would tell you to include beneficial foods in your Diet ?
Was there a Pharmacy next door owned by the Medical Center you attended ?

The Vitamin Industry is a scam Industry.
The EU is cracking down on the hysterical claims made by Vitamin pushers.




09:23pm 11/12/12 Permalink
kos
Germany
2385 posts
Why would a Dr tell you to take Vitamins ?

Because to change a lot of people's diets to actually be healthy and nutritious would basically require a big lifestyle change, but taking a few tablets on top of their s***** diet is a change much easier to swallow (geddit?). Unfortunately GPs are very much a 'get the patient in and out as fast as possible' business.

For a doctor to suggest vitamin supplements without first explaining in detail that it would be massively better to just eat the the right foods is terrible though.
09:51pm 11/12/12 Permalink
Saint
Cainer
Brisbane, Queensland
3231 posts
Oh they do explain that, but sometimes people are unable to change their diets straight away or in some cases at all. Not everyone is the same.
11:07pm 11/12/12 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9659 posts
Because to change a lot of people's diets to actually be healthy and nutritious would basically require a big lifestyle change


So Dr recomends taking some pills and continue bad lifestyle ?

Thats LUDICRUOUS
11:20pm 11/12/12 Permalink
DecayingCorpse
Brisbane, Queensland
2102 posts
since labor fixed all of qld's bad teeth problems.

qld'ers have some of the worst oral health in the country because of a s***** public dental service, maybe if they hired more on the public purse they would have made a start... putting chemicals in the water? oh that's an easy fix.
11:26pm 11/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21933 posts
Yes easy fixes are terrible. What we want are fixes that are as complicated and expensive as possible.
11:28pm 11/12/12 Permalink
DecayingCorpse
Brisbane, Queensland
2103 posts
we'd all prefer a fix that actually worked. people are too tight/broke to go to a private dentist.
11:30pm 11/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21934 posts
Umm, fluoride in water works mate. And it is possible to add fluoride to water and to use public money to fund more dentists. I agree with you that it would be a good thing for that to happen.
11:33pm 11/12/12 Permalink
DecayingCorpse
Brisbane, Queensland
2104 posts
flouride in water works - yes i agree, but over many years of use.
and flouride in water is not going to help the people's teeth that are f***ed now.
11:36pm 11/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21935 posts
True, I see your point now.

What we need is for some speedy evolution to happen so we have teeth like a shark's. I always thought it would be really handy to have rows and rows of back up teeth ready to go for when one falls out.
11:38pm 11/12/12 Permalink
DecayingCorpse
Brisbane, Queensland
2105 posts
here's a thought, when kids get their final adult teeth, cover them in an epoxy resin and reapply when necessary :D
11:41pm 11/12/12 Permalink
kos
Germany
2388 posts
So Dr recomends taking some pills and continue bad lifestyle ?

Thats LUDICRUOUS

What do you think, people who eat junk food all day every day are going to be told by a GP that they need to eat lots of fresh fruits and vegetables every day and cut down on fatty junk and empty calories and they're just going to go home and do it? Not a chance.

Many people would need serious coaching and support, and the motivation beyond just that they have a deficiency, to achieve that. So of course the GP is going to recommend something that they have a chance of doing that will actually help them, albeit in a less than ideal way.

Of course the GP should explain to them that eating healthy is the best way to go, but addressing those kinds of lifestyle problems in a complete and proper way shouldn't be up to a GP, they should be addressed at an educational level.
11:59pm 11/12/12 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
5625 posts
Oh jesus, you're linking an article from natural news, i.e. the biggest source of scientifically illiterate conspiracy bulls*** about every single possible issue on the planet. The so called 'harvard' source was investigating an extremely poor and polluted part of the 3rd world with fluoride levels 20 timers higher than the known toxic dose, and from what I recall effects were actually less bad than expected for such extreme amounts. That publication in no way gained any traction in the professional community who works with and understands the problems - I mean, who are evil and corrupt and out to poison us all and don't know as well as you with your highschool science education.
Nerf Lord you need sources or you could shut the f*** up.
12:26am 12/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19330 posts
we need to add into the water that medicine that stops your body from absorbing fat. i blame the government for not doing this.
12:27am 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6964 posts
Nerf Lord you need sources or you could shut the f*** up.

Owe, your confidence as if that would be a hard thing to do is like nails in my face. Normally there wouldn't even be sources for 'non event' - but this one was so bad that many people spent time pointing out how idiotically bad and deceitful the conspiracy narrative was.

In other words – fluoridated water in the US has the same level of fluoride as the control or low fluoride groups in the China studies reviewed in the recent article, and the negative association with IQ was only found where fluoride levels were much higher – generally above EPA limits.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/anti-fluoride-propaganda-as-news/

That's not to even mention that it's only a plausible correlation seen only in a meta analysis of data (i.e. not even a direct study) from an extremely poor polluted area. Basically, about fifty thousand investigations away from being considered remotely reliable health science.

But as you can see here, while the Fluoride Action Network’s focus is on stopping community fluoridation programs in places such as the US, not a single study presented was actually about community fluoridation in developed nations. Rather, the studies presented by FAN are about the threat of endemic fluorosis among those exposed to high levels naturally occurring in the groundwater and from coal pollution in developing nations, issues on which they are not active. This is a disingenuous use of scientific research to advance a fear-based agenda.

http://skepticalvegan.com/2012/06/05/fluoride-the-brain-the-china-studies/

Hell, there was even a handy summary of just what a manufactured non-event this was written up at cracked.
12:44am 12/12/12 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
5626 posts
Sorry, let me be more specific and this goes for both cainer and you: please cite peer reviewed scientific journal articles and not the f*****g s*** you two have been posting.

Thanks.
01:09am 12/12/12 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
7614 posts
i am so happy i spent the first 8 years of my life growing up in Sydney where they put fluoride in the water.. never had a filling (except for one the trainee nurse put in the side of a tooth as practice when i was in grade 5 - which is still there btw)

what they really need to do is put something in the water that removes toothless bogans from the community
01:25am 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6965 posts
Sorry, let me be more specific and this goes for both cainer and you: please cite peer reviewed scientific journal articles and not the f*****g s*** you two have been posting.Thanks.

So let me get this straight, you want a peer reviewed scientific journal piece stating that the harvard meta analysis of toxic-level fluoride correlations in China was in fact a harvard meta analysis of toxic-level fluoride correlations in China? Did you try to make the most retarded request plausible?

From the original bloody article:
We performed a systematic review and meta-analysis of published studies
Conclusions: The results support the possibility of an adverse effect of high fluoride exposure on children’s neurodevelopment.

See those words? Meta-analysis? Possibility? High (i.e. already known toxic level) exposure?

Going on about how studies have shown that first world fluoride levels have any negative side effects and quoting that meta analysis in China is a harmful joke. There will never be a scientific publication which is needed to explain as such, because journals are targeted at people with minimum scientific literacy who already understand that the article never claimed or proved what the conspiracy nuts are saying that it did...
02:10am 12/12/12 Permalink
simul
Brisbane, Queensland
1446 posts
Heres the HSPH link:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi.html

The researchers conducted a systematic review of studies, almost all of which are from China where risks from fluoride are well-established. Fluoride is a naturally occurring substance in groundwater, and exposures to the chemical are increased in some parts of China.


Its very early work, and working off biased and incomplete data.
07:04am 12/12/12 Permalink
Reverend Evil
Wynnum, Queensland
21131 posts
what they really need to do is put something in the water that removes toothless bogans from the community

Damn straight. Some type of chemical that can tell if the person drinking it is on welfare or has a mullet/ratstail.
08:55am 12/12/12 Permalink
TufNuT
I like eel pie
Brisbane, Queensland
4028 posts
what they really need to do is put something in the water that removes toothless bogansall the stupid people from the community


Fixed.
09:19am 12/12/12 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
16343 posts
i am so happy i spent the first 8 years of my life growing up in Sydney where they put fluoride in the water.. never had a filling


no fillings here. that's what i get for brushing my teeth every day.
09:34am 12/12/12 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
1098 posts

we chould put a little Alcohol in the water too to relax ppl.
And some Aspirin, some anti-depressants, lets throw some vaccines in there too,
Some Vitamin C, Folic Acid.




Imagine having alcohol on tap in your house.. that would be shmick
10:37am 12/12/12 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
559 posts
F*** me, some of you guys spout some s*** without any actual research into the subject.

- Firstly Fluoride is only effective when topically applied to the teeth, ingesting the substance in large quantities OR over time can lead to fluorosis (the substance is cumulative) Source: http://fluoridation.com/skeletal.htm
- The effects on the brain from ingestion can be found in quite a few sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7760776?dopt=Abstract and the effects on children IQ: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/
- Fluorosis leads to damaging the human bone structure over time: http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/3295994/reload=0;jsessionid=sL82fegZemv70dQCL9dU.8
- Yes the levels are low but consider that we don't just drink the water, we shower in it, we wash our food in it and we use it to clean food preparation utensils.
- Check out how many countries (especially European ones) that don't add fluoride their water supply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country
10:43am 12/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34727 posts
very tempting to believe you sip (if that is your real name), but im pretty sure my government would only do something for me if it was a for a good reason.
10:53am 12/12/12 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10570 posts
I used to care but now I'm on tank water.

What we need is for some speedy evolution to happen so we have teeth like a shark's. I always thought it would be really handy to have rows and rows of back up teeth ready to go for when one falls out.


You want to get a blowjob from a shark?
10:55am 12/12/12 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
560 posts
very tempting to believe you sip (if that is your real name), but im pretty sure my government would only do something for me if it was a for a good reason.


A1: Sip is part of my last name, so its kinda my name lol.

A2: To make money is my guess, I don't believe in some evil conspiracy...I just believe people do stupid s*** for profit. They aren't scientists and the fluoride chemical 'hexafluorosilicic acid' is a by product of the wet scrubbing systems of the superphosphate fertilizer industry. They aren't allowed to dump the crap in the ocean sooooo....yeah. Mind you can't be bothered looking into the why for sourced evidence...
11:13am 12/12/12 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3503 posts
from dr karl twitter

does fluoride in out water have any negative effects?
dr karls answer, yes, but much less than the positive effects


pretty well sums up why it is done,
11:37am 12/12/12 Permalink
demon
Brisbane, Queensland
7017 posts
Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream!? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.
12:01pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Fireman Sam
Brisbane, Queensland
103 posts
The effects on the brain from ingestion can be found in quite a few sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7760776?dopt=Abstract


This set of experiments is designed to look at absurdly high doses to try and examine where things go wrong.

the effects on children IQ: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/


This is the same article as previous stated and is simple data aggregation that the researchers admit in the article makes for a weakened control.


12:19pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Dodgymon
Brisbane, Queensland
2215 posts
I signed that petition a while back and the other day this was the response from The Borg I got.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/apps/EPetitions_qld/Responses/1886-12.pdf
12:23pm 12/12/12 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1326 posts
I drink only rain water and pure grain alcohol to protect the sanctity of my precious bodily fluids
12:25pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6967 posts
F*** me, some of you guys spout some s*** without any actual research into the subject

F*** us? We just talked about your sources and highlighted that the nonsense around them is manufactured lies - straight from the conclusions they don't say what you guys are saying that they do. What is wrong with you? Why do you insist that (extremely minimal meta analytical) research says things which it absolutely doesn't?

ingesting the substance in large quantities

You know that water is toxic if you have enough right? Everything is toxic if you get the right dose. Saying that "It's known that at high doses it will be toxic" is an argument against water, caffeine, oxygen, paracetamol, and every single plausible thing that a human being could put into their body.
01:23pm 12/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21937 posts
I'm looking forward to loutl's hilarious contribution to this thread.
03:40pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6969 posts
I just can't get why they're not upset about dihydrogen monoxide. It's an acid which people have died from after ingesting toxic high quantities, it's got a huge industry built around it (if you follow the money, you'll see that there's entire engineers who have built careers around the idea of 'managing' and 'treating' it - is it all done so that they can continue lining their pockets?), it's used in heavy industry applications such as cleaning nuclear power plants (!), and cannot be found in nature in anything but heavily diluted forms. There have been cases of people who have had this hydroxyl acid regularly and then died of cancer, the connection is clear as day.

This poison liquid needs to be stopped now, not just when people go over the so called 'toxic' dose level. Ban water now. What is toxic at one level is toxic at all levels.
04:59pm 12/12/12 Permalink
HerbalLizard
Brisbane, Queensland
5669 posts
F*** look at all the crazy up in this b****!
05:23pm 12/12/12 Permalink
JakeG
Thailand
1144 posts
It's just more nanny state bulls*** isn't it?

Leave people alone and let them educate their kids about brushing their teeth.

They don't have to take it upon themselves to intervene by putting fluoride in the water.

Sounds like some idiot was feeling guilty he didn't have any work to do so came up with this s*** ages ago.

Problem: Kids rotten teeth
Solution: Educate kids about not drinking so many carbonated drinks and eating candy.

Is that so hard? People need to take control and improve their life rather have everything done for them.

last edited by JakeG at 17:39:52 12/Dec/12
05:33pm 12/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21940 posts
It's just more nanny state bulls*** isn't it?
Nope not really.
Problem: Kids rotten teeth
Solution: Educate kids about not drinking so many carbonated drinks and eating candy.

Is that so hard? People need to take control and improve their life rather have everything done for them.
Or you could do this, and fluoridate the water. It's not like they had a meeting where they had a big discussion about either adding fluoride to the water supply or setting up a good education scheme about the hazards of excessive consumption of carbonated drinks and sugary treats. It is quite possible to do both. The problem with education is that for some people it just doesn't stick. I mean, there are parents out there who still take drugs/drink/smoke when they are pregnant. Do you really think they are going to give a f*** about their kids teeth when it comes to cans of coke? Somehow I think they are going to buy their kids that Kinder Surprise if it means them shutting the f*** up.
05:38pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
6703 posts
Leave people alone and let them educate their kids about brushing their teeth.
So kids with drop-kick parents don't deserve to have healthy teeth? What are they supposed to do, invent a time machine and go back in time to make their parents less s*****?
05:43pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Jim
UK
13134 posts
but why draw the line at teeth
05:46pm 12/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19333 posts
We should also put antibiotics in the water.
05:48pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34734 posts
We should also put antibiotics in the water.

hmmmm, i drink a lot of water, im not sure i want a lot of antibiotics.
05:49pm 12/12/12 Permalink
fpot
Gold Coast, Queensland
21941 posts
We should also put antibiotics in the water.
http://i.imgur.com/IsKjT.png
05:53pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Zak
Brisbane, Queensland
2937 posts
hmmmm, i drink a lot of water, im not sure i want a lot of antibiotics.


Yes, but you also have a lot of hepatitis. Just what I heard is all.
05:54pm 12/12/12 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3508 posts
jakeG, sugar isn't the problem

https://greenpoolcommodities.com/files/8113/4932/3223/121004_Sugar_Consumption_in_Australia_-_A_Statistical_Update_-_Public_Release_Document.pdf

we are consuming LESS sugar than 50 years ago, so clearly it isn't all this candy and softdrink like people claim that is the issue,

that leaves us with only a few other options to "blame"
oral health spending has been slowly increasing http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=10737420710&tab=2
and there is alot of brushing going on
Brushing with fluoride toothpaste is the most common oral health behaviour of Australian children. Less than 5% of children brushed less than once a day and nearly all children brushed their teeth with fluoride toothpaste.

yet, in that age group, 40% still shows signs of decay

so is it access to dental care?
replacement for sugar (like fructose, and dextrose) as a sweetener?
the downfall of sugar laden cordial and the rise of acid rich fruit juice?

also, the problem isn't so much kids as such, f*** those little tikes can go nuts until their adult teeth come thru,

and if you want to see a quick result of fluoride in drinking water, look at most of the teeth of people bought up in states with fluoride vs those without,

I drink copious amount of bad soft drinks, and seldom brush with toothpaste, just brush to knock the fuzz off, and that is at best once a day and at thirty I have the grand total of 1 filling, and that was due to a abscess when i quit smoking, not due to decay, my father who was raised of tank water over 12 fillings, my mother raised on fluoride water, 2, my sister, 2 (army brat, but most states used fluoride when i grew up)

my partner, of the same age, and a twice a day brusher her whole life, as with her family, all have at least 4 fillings each, and to exclude the genetics her grandfather has only gotten his 3rd filling in the last few months, (he grew up having fluoride tablets) and her grandmother who just passed at 98, had 2,

so clearly there are more factors that bad food choices,
06:08pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34735 posts
Yes, but you also have a lot of hepatitis. Just what I heard is all.


that reminds me matey, ive been meaning to call, you should get tested. im not 100% clear on what happened at cricket the other nite!
06:11pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6970 posts
We should also put antibiotics in the water.

But why? Why do you take something that has no purpose and compare it to something that has a purpose and say they're both equally as bad?

infi. Stop being s***.

but why draw the line at teeth

Because that's the end of the list of useful things that we can easily do at this point?
06:16pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Jim
UK
13135 posts
there's no other comparable product that could be delivered via the water supply for perceived health benefits of the general population? Or is being 'easily' delivered via water supply the only 'easy' method of delivery? Seems sort of arbitrary when you consider other things the government spends money on, and the infrastructure to support them.

I mean I'm not for or against fluoride in water cos I've simply never bothered looking into it and have no idea one way or the other, it just seems like a reasonable question
06:33pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6971 posts
there's no other comparable product that could be delivered via the water supply for perceived health benefits of the general population?

Chlorinated H2O?

The fact that the government is already delivering clean water means that they're already mass medicating. One could equally argue that they'll drink out of a ditch as is "natural", or clean their own water only if they want to.
07:23pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6116 posts
Wouldn't (and don't) those people chose to drink out of their rain water tanks?
07:25pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6972 posts
Yep, my mum and stepdad do, because they've bought into fears of evolution and fluoride and people who say that quantum healing isn't real.

It's incredibly annoying to know that they're damaging their health because of scientifically illiterate propaganda created by the scum of society.
07:37pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4659 posts
people who say that quantum healing isn't real.


I'm confused, surely you mean that they've bought into people that say it is real?
09:40pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6973 posts
Fear of. ;)
10:24pm 12/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19334 posts
we should be putting ritalin in the water. so much undiagnosed adhd we need to help.
10:27pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6974 posts
we should be putting ritalin in the water. so much undiagnosed adhd we need to help.

Seriously, answer the question. Why do you keep contrasting this with theoretical things which would have no practical purpose? Saying "see, as seen using this interchangeable example it is bad" when Fluoridation is one of the things that actually has a purpose makes no sense.

Why do you endeavour to keep putting such a s***** argument out there? You must recognise by this point that what you're saying doesn't make sense? I can't understand your type's brain, it's frustratingly incapable.
10:53pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6117 posts
Almost like saying people that don't want Fluoride would be drinking out of dirty ditches...
11:00pm 12/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6975 posts
Almost like saying people that don't want Fluoride would be drinking out of dirty ditches...

No, anybody saying that the government is wrong to be doing "mass medication" with water doesn't recognise that clean water already is public mass medication, a step made away from traditional dirty water sources of ditches and streams (how most other animals still drink). People complaining about mass medication on some ideological point should be opposed to any water being provided.

These people are just inconsistently spouting harmful ideological catch phrases without really caring for what they're actually talking about, typical faceman style. Example: See infi's complete disinterest in actually defending his logic, he's just in here to spout the latest libtard catchphrase and hope that it does the thinking for him.

Bet they don't get out their pitchforks and cry that the government should not be pumping clean (chlorinated) water into people's homes, or moving sewage away from population centres, or putting caps on airborne pollutants, or having iodine added to foods as a simple effective solution. "If I didn't want plague-causing sewage in my street then I'd get rid of it myself, stop making simple scientifically-sound health decisions which enormously improve our civilization, we need to revert public health progress over the most retarded possible catchphrase-based reasons."
11:05pm 12/12/12 Permalink
FaceMan
Brisbane, Queensland
9662 posts
Fluroride isnt used to clean the water.

I dont know how you make the leap from Fluroride to water treatment.
Treating the water makes it cleaner.
Adding Fluoride to it pollutes the water.

02:04am 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6976 posts
Fluroride isnt used to clean the water.

No, chlorination is. Public water supply is already a step of mass medication away from a 'natural' state (providing the chemical H2O, very beneficial to health, toxic in large doses). Cleaning that water is yet another (Using Cl). But suddenly "We're opposed to fluoridation because that's mass medication" ? F*** off, no you're not, lying pieces of s***. You're either scared of new things or bought into some unscientific hysteria, and now are fumbling for an excuse. You're as bad as the christian lobby with their supposed reason for opposition to gay marriage being "because there's no breeding involved, totally not an excuse for a stupid biblical motivation, no-siree".

Adding Fluoride to it pollutes the water.

It's really 'in for a penny in for a pound' with you isn't it? But then, at least you admit the real motivation, your regular denial of science.

I am actually a little allergic to stupid, and you sap my health every time you let loose one of these zingas.
02:10am 13/12/12 Permalink
Jim
UK
13136 posts
No, anybody saying that the government is wrong to be doing "mass medication" with water doesn't recognise that clean water already is public mass medication
yeah fair enough

it's not that I wanted to spout ideological catch phrases, it's just that I hadn't ever given it much thought which is why I jumped straight to 'why bother with teeth and nothing else'

as for catching and treating your own drinking water, I've always thought it was a better idea than having the requirement of mass water treatment and supply. less so obviously in areas that have bugger all rain, but even in qld it's viable for at least a large % of your own water (did it myself for ~8 years)

I often look at water running out of the tap and imagine the cost and effort involved in the long journey it took all the way from the catchment through treatment works and miles of pipes to my tap, only to exist for a brief moment in the relatively tiny distance from the tap to the drainhole and it's gone again, off into another government-provided infrastructure designed to carry it away and often pollute some body of water not too far away. it can make for some pretty obsessive tap flicking ;)

I've always felt like it'd be a lot better if the general expectation of people living in suburbia was to provide at least a decent chunk of their own water - not for anything to do with fluoridation, just because it seems wasteful to have to provide tap water to vast urban sprawls and essentially ignore relatively clean water that falls onto so many rooftops

It's incredibly annoying to know that they're damaging their health
how are they damaging their own health?
04:07am 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6977 posts
I wasn't accusing you of such tactics sorry Jim, your question seemed honest enough.

I agree that it seems very cool to attempt to catch water and generate power on the property if it can be done for a good cost benefit basis. Even if it's just for washing, gardens, etc. Seems efficient, which I like.

how are they damaging their own health?

They're taking to increasingly non-evidence-based quackery at the expense of now becoming hostile to conventional medicine because of the hullaboo spread by idiots, are now not taking fluoride based toothpastes or drinks (importing some "chinese herbal toothpaste"). Fluoride is linked to far better dental health, and they're not looking after theirs, all because of the loudness of the scientifically illiterate. I've learned that people really need to tell those who spread the nonsense to stfu and point out how they're wrong (they speak with such confidence while fabricating what studies actually said), not just sit back and assume that they don't hurt anybody else.
04:15am 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6118 posts
These people are just inconsistently spouting harmful ideological catch phrases


...Almost like saying people that don't want Fluoride would be drinking out of dirty ditches...

I like Fluoride int the water, I think it's a good thing for the general health of the population. But when you speak like that, you're no better than the people you're acusing of such tactics.
08:31am 13/12/12 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
561 posts
we should be putting ritalin in the water. so much undiagnosed adhd we need to help.


Can we start with Nerf :)

But seriously how about a subsidy for fluoride based toothpastes to make it so cost effective for everyone? At least then people will be adding it topically to their teeth with minimal ingestion.
10:27am 13/12/12 Permalink
Mantorok
Brisbane, Queensland
6706 posts
But seriously how about a subsidy for fluoride based toothpastes to make it so cost effective for everyone? At least then people will be adding it topically to their teeth with minimal ingestion.
The cost of toothpaste isn't the issue, it's a behavioural problem. Some parents simply don't teach their kids to brush their teeth properly.
11:30am 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6978 posts
...Almost like saying people that don't want Fluoride would be drinking out of dirty ditches...

The fact that the government is already providing clean water means that they're already mass medicating, animals traditionally don't have clean water sources. People complaining about mass medication should be complaining about clean water by the same principle. That's simply a fact revealing how inconsistent and shallow these people's positions are.

Can we start with Nerf :)

Oh look, a twat who can't defend their unscientific propaganda ignores the technical criticism and begins putting out some personal attacks.

Because of people like you, i.e. scum, people like my parents get led into anti-scientific health-destroying lifestyles.
12:43pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6120 posts
Yeah, but saying that people that don't want fluoride may as well drink out of a ditch is just as bad as infi saying that since we have fluoride we might as well add ritalin.

Both have sweet f*** all to do with Fluoride being put into our water. You were calling out other people on the very same tactic you were, and still are, employing.
12:47pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6979 posts
No I'm not, I'm highlighting that "natural" does not mean better, and that government-provided clean water already is mass medication, which these people are not up in arms about. There is nothing incorrect about what I said, it's not an analogy, it's a fact that the government water supply is by definition unnatural and mass medication, and it's a fact that these people's supposed reasons for being against fluoridation apply exactly the same to that.
12:50pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6121 posts
Right, sorry. I must have missunderstood your stance again. My mistake.
Two sides of the same coin man. You're both using slippery slope, just falling down different sides of the hill.
12:54pm 13/12/12 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
3689 posts
The water at Archive is treated with awesome flavours including hops and yeast and malted barley and is delivered cold.

you should come try some tomorrow night Nerf, be great to meet you!
12:55pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6980 posts
You're both using slippery slope, just falling down different sides of the hill.

.. How on earth is it a slippery slope to highlight that by definition government water is mass medication? Do you even know what that means?

The natural state of animals is to drink dirty water out of holes in the ground. That's not a... slope, that's a fact of reality, which people who think that clean water always magically came out of taps since humans evolved completely ignore.

http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00d2-8108-441f/an-animal-drinking-at-the-water-hole-maralal-kenya 1152_12958625669-tpfil02aw-13120.jpg

Government provided clean water is mass medication, mass medication is not a bad thing. If one argues against something on the grounds of mass medication, then they are arguing against mass clean water, which has improved our civilization's health dramatically.
01:01pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6122 posts
Slippery by saying that stopping Fluoride means stopping ALL treatment EVER. When all it means is stopping fluoride.
01:32pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4660 posts
Government provided clean water is mass medication?

Chlorine is a disinfectant, its not really medicating.

adding something to remove impurities isn't the same as adding a chemical specifically to be metabolized. suggesting it does is why you're getting called out on the slippery slope argument.

last edited by Captain Lateral at 13:37:42 13/Dec/12
01:36pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6981 posts
Slippery by saying that stopping Fluoride means stopping ALL treatment EVER. When all it means is stopping fluoride.

You are bad at reading comprehension. I was responding to people saying that mass medication is by definition bad, not those opposed to fluoride for other reasons.

Government provided clean water is mass medication?

Yes. H2O is a chemical with enormous health benefits, on which it's possible to overdose and achieve a known toxic dose like anything else consumable. Humans have traditionally gotten this from dirty water holes. In recent generations modern governments have developed against dirty water on a mass scale, and have improved public health dramatically by "mass medicating" clean drinking water, so that people don't have to do it themselves. Nobody complains, because they're used to it, yet they turn around and cry about "mass medication" when something they're not familiar with, which has unqualified quacks creating fear about, comes along.

Sorry chumps, but mass medication is a very familiar and very beneficial thing, your parroted ideological catchphrases thrown at a problem are once again pretty much shallow and useless.
01:45pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6123 posts
You are bad at reading comprehension. I was responding to people saying that mass medication is by definition bad


Exactally, by using the same logical fallacy as them, but going in the other direction. Cleaning/treating water isn't medication.

Having a working sewerage system isn't mass medication either. Hygine maybe, but not medication.
02:13pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
562 posts
Oh look, a twat who can't defend their unscientific propaganda ignores the technical criticism and begins putting out some personal attacks.Because of people like you, i.e. scum, people like my parents get led into anti-scientific health-destroying lifestyles.


I don't remember calling you a twat or scum? But you seem to be in a bad place at the moment...so I'll let it slide.

Ummm pretty sure those articles I posted are actual scientific articles not a bunch of personal opinion about mass medication. If you have scientific articles that disprove the specific things I've mentioned please refer me to them as I may of missed it while reading through this thread, more than happy to change my stance.
02:25pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6982 posts
Cleaning/treating water isn't medication.

Hahaha, yes it is, it's just one which you're familiar with.

Water is an orally consumed chemical. The government providing water in the first place is mass medication against many terrible conditions ("I'll just collect or buy my own water when I want it daggnagit, I don't need this 'mass medication!'").

This is a child suffering from dehydration, due to not being so fortunate as to have been born somewhere with mass water medication to prevent against the disease:

http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20110810&t=2&i=476824305&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2011-08-10T223830Z_01_BTRE7791QWD00_RTROPTP_0_SOMALIA

Water to solve these issues did not just magically happen, it was a mass public health move.

On top of that, the government providing clean water is yet another mass medication against many terrible diseases that people would have if using other (traditional) sources, and has improved public health dramatically for it.
02:34pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6983 posts
If you have scientific articles that disprove the specific things I've mentioned

The articles themselves don't say what you say that they do. We already discussed this. People told you that. You ignored it and turned to trying to painting me as bad simply because I wasn't agreeing with you. I'm painting you as bad for being wrong. You are spreading glaring untruths about what scientific articles have said and are contributing to a bad health situation.

You should be held to higher standards. This hippy "lie about what scientific research says" bulls*** attitude leads to actually hurting other people.

Let me break it down for you again: You provided a harvard meta analysis to argue that fluoridation is shown to cause lowered IQs, but were quoting a small meta analysis which just said that in a region with hugely toxic levels there was plausibly a connection to lowered IQs. Not linked, not demonstrated, not a study, and even if it was, it was at known toxic levels. Water kills at known toxic levels. Caffeine kills at known toxic levels. Oxygen kills at known toxic levels. Riling up fear about remotely plausible unproven links at extremely toxic levels is typical of the scientifically illiterate bulls*** from your type.
02:44pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6125 posts
Hygine isn't medication.

Quick, I've been proven wrong, better post an emotive picture/story to distract people.
02:48pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4661 posts
Nerf,

Medicating > to treat with medicine,
Medicine > An agent, such as a drug, used to treat disease or injury.

removing parasites before consumption doesn't fall under medicating, it falls under purifying.

if it was to kill bugs in your stomach (or once it got there) then you would be right, but its not, so you're not.

treating ailments directly to the humans = medicating,
treating ailments by preventing exposure ! medicating.

condom ! medicating,
morning after pill = medicating.

02:56pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6984 posts
Hygine isn't medication.

The f***? Who said anything about hygiene?

We were talking about the modern invention of mass publicly available drinking water to prevent against disease and dehydration. It can be used for hygiene, but we're talking about the medical benefits of ingesting water (it leads to prolonged life, if done right, but you're seemingly so familiar with just having it for free or near-free that you're not able to see it as a measurable beneficial-with-costs chemical for intake which wasn't always available to everyone, the same as oxygen or fluoride or iron).

Quick, I've been proven wrong

... About what?

Medicating > to treat with medicine

And what on Earth do you think that H2O does? The now publicly available medicine against many diseases, which lead to quick death, and f*** over many people in the world who do not have it. That is public mass medication.

We provide water to protect against short term diseases such as dehydration, and that's fine.
We provide fluoride to protect against long term disease such as tooth decay, and suddenly that's mass medication?
03:04pm 13/12/12 Permalink
taggs
6057 posts
The government providing water in the first place is mass medication...


Mmm, I don't think this is correct. You're being pretty misleading with your definitions here, imo.

I mean, is oxygen a medication against asphyxiation? Is food a medication against starvation?

Not in the generally accepted sense I would have thought.
03:07pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6985 posts
I mean, is oxygen a medication against asphyxiation?

Of course, it's just one that we're familiar with coming to us easily, like water. However the government doesn't have any real imperative to provide it, and can only really ensure that the air is clean, it's easily gained without help, like vitamin D. It's just another thing that benefits the human condition and the arbitrary goal of staying healthy, and thus alive, for as long as possible.

In medicine, Oxygen is considered a drug and must be signed for. It can be toxic at high doses. It works to prevent health concerns which arrive much faster without it, and doctors will provide it if you are lacking it -
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Plastic_oxygen_mask_on_an_ER_patient.jpg/220px-Plastic_oxygen_mask_on_an_ER_patient.jpg

iodine, water, fluoride - these are harder chemicals to come by, and so mass medication exists for all of them. It has improved our civilization dramatically.

The human body is just a chemical machine. Flawed and fragile at that. No chemical is more 'right' than another, it's all a measure of effectiveness at different doses.
03:12pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5502 posts
We provide water to protect against short term diseases such as dehydration, and that's fine.

What? Dehydration isn't a disease it's a condition. It can be a cause and/or a symptom of a disease, but calling it a disease is playing fast and loose with medical terminology.

Why do I get the impression that this thread was created for the primary purpose of vehemently arguing with whoever responds to it?
03:27pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6986 posts
What? Dehydration isn't a disease it's a condition.

What do you call tooth decay smart arse? :P

Why do I get the impression that this thread was created for the primary purpose of vehemently arguing with whoever responds to it?

Jim was lovely. There's just a few enormous idiots who I have a low fuse for.

---

On a side note, check out all these known negative effects of the drug which the medical community refers to as 'oxygen' guys, we need to take this knowledge out of pragmatic context the same as the fluoride debate, and argue for banning it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_therapy#Negative_effects
03:28pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6126 posts
Oxygen cant be toxic at any level while on the land under normal circumstances. Also, you and I both know that taggs meant Air, as in 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen and 1% f*** you gas.

That said, breathing pure Oxygen while under 3m of water at Sea Level? You're going to have a bad time.

They make drinking water hygenic, they don't medicate it... unless you count the fluoride.
03:31pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6987 posts
Oxygen cant be toxic at any level while on the land under normal circumstances.

And so we don't need to worry about it as much as water or salt or fluoride intoxication, but it is a chemical that works all the same, just a much harder one to go wrong on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity

Also, you and I both know that taggs meant Air, as in 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen and 1% f*** you gas.

I have no idea what the difference is supposed to be? Either way, oxygen ("air") is considered a drug. Air is considered a medicine/drug intended to be delivered via medical procedures such as CPR.

They make drinking water hygenic, they don't medicate it...

Providing it in the first place IS medicating it, juts like iodine and fluo - You know what, f*** you. You're not actually looking for honest answers, you've just turned up to pick a fight with me as in every single thread you post in, and I have work to do.
03:38pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5503 posts
What do you call tooth decay smart arse? :P

I didn't say anything about tooth decay at all.
03:40pm 13/12/12 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3509 posts
Oxygen cant be toxic at any level



yes it can, well, ozone is oxygen in another form

end troll
03:44pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6988 posts
I didn't say anything about tooth decay at all.

Oh jesus, fine, then water is provided to protect against diseases which are caused by dehydration. The exact same as fluoride in tooth decay and the diseases associated with that.

If providing the masses with fluoride is a mass medication, then providing the masses with water is a mass medication. People arguing against "mass medication" need to explain why it's ok with one chemical and not another. And then we find that it was never actually about mass medication, it was about fear of new things or the result of unscientific propaganda.
03:59pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4662 posts
. People arguing against "mass medication" need to explain why it's ok with one chemical and not another.


i tried Nerf, you're just ignoring me :<
04:14pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
6127 posts
'Air' is what is commonly refered to as what you breath now. Which is (roughly) 21% Oxygen, 78% Nitrogen and 1% various other gasses.

Are you seriously calling Air a drug? Man, I think I'm missunderstanding you again.

I also know what Oxygen toxicity is, I go Scuba Diving on Enriched Air Nitrox (Basically, higher % concentrations of Oxygen in my Scuba Tank.) Oxygen toxicity is a very real risk to me if I ever breach my Maximum Operating Depth. Which is why I qualified it with 'while on the land under normal circumstances'
It would also be toxic if you were in a decompression chamber. As your body would be subject to much higher pressures (i.e. as if you were under water)

Providing Clean water isn't medication. Just like providing clean food, or washing dishes isn't.

yes it can, well, ozone is oxygen in another form

end troll


Ozone is a mixture of many gasses. Fail troll.
04:20pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6989 posts
Providing Clean water isn't medication.

Failed reading compression for the five thousandth time. I repeatedly differentiated between providing water, and then also providing clean water. As I just said in response to you last time you said this, the act of publicly providing water itself is a relatively new mass medication.

Providing H2O, and providing clean H2O, are just as much mass medical chemical provisioning as providing F-. One cannot argue against the later on mass medication grounds without arguing against the former.

Are you seriously calling Air a drug?

Yes, the same as the medical community, or anybody who understands basic evolution and chemistry, and that biological life is just the process of surviving with whatever beneficial resources are available for as long as possible. Common or no.

i tried Nerf, you're just ignoring me :<

Permalink to the post where you explained why the mass provision principle is ok with one chemical (H2O) and not another (F-).
04:41pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4663 posts
Permalink to the post where you explained why the mass provision principle is ok with one chemical (H2O) and not another (F-).


one is a naturally sought out compound, on which we can't survive without, the other is an additive to the previously sought out compound.

I don't think people are against fluoride as an element, they are against it being added to their life supporting compound without consent.

05:07pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5504 posts
Oh jesus, fine, then water is provided to protect against diseases which are caused by dehydration.


Staying away from sick people helps to prevent disease as well, do you consider keeping an adequate distance to be medication? Though I notice you've classed air as a drug as well, so I doubt we'll be able to come to an agreement on terminology.
05:23pm 13/12/12 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
2881 posts
I heard Fluoride causes Autism.
05:47pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6990 posts
Staying away from sick people helps to prevent disease as well, do you consider keeping an adequate distance to be medication?

Hello, the medical community developed this amazing technique called quarantine, which greatly improved public help. Primitive people had trouble understanding why that was 'forced on them' too.

Quarantine, gloves, face masks, are a medical solution not taken orally, so are not drugs/medicines/chemicals like water/iodine/fluorine/glucose/oxygen/proteins/etc.

http://www.thelocal.de/articleImages/18077.jpg
on which we can't survive without

You can't survive as long*. Fluoride solves problems on a different time scale to water, but they're both doing the same thing in improving your health beyond where you would be otherwise, and both are publicly provided on mass scales to improve public health.

One is just so familiar as ubiquitously available to you that you're making a special pleading fallacy, "because it's water duh, water is the health chemical that I'm used to having available to me". And one can survive without food for up to several weeks, without water for days, without oxygen for minutes. We all die, but it's a matter of time scale for what we have available to solve. Many in the world do not get access to water or food, and so will die sooner - these things are luxuries against death. Bad oral hygiene is a major contributor to cardiac failure, on a relevant time scale it is also deadly.

Why are short term medication solutions ok to mass medicate, but not long term?

one is a naturally sought out compound, on which we can't survive without, the other is an additive to the previously sought out compound.

You're making the exact mistake that I just said that people were going to make, where you're so used to water access being near-freely available - as is new in human history - that you simply see it as an inherent right that will always be there for you, you don't recognise that it's something that had to be built and earned and isn't guaranteed during one's time on Earth, it's a public mass medication, it doesn't get special pleading in classification as not being a helpful drug or chemical which extends health and life. In reality it is just a now-ubiquitously-available useful chemical as one of the accomplishments of our civilization, as fluoride can now be too.

Just as how most humans in the past, and many today, did not and do not have that access to water and suffer and die for it, which we consider a primitive and backwards sad state of affairs, so to do many today not have access to mouth-saving fluoride, and we can fix that so so easily without any notable complications, just like how we provided water to the point that we got people like you saying "Water? That's just what I need to stay alive." - your expectations of what a justified length of life is have simply been raised. 'Nature' never changed nor was kind to creatures who needed water, many of us here would be dead from dehydration at this age if we lived in 'nature'. Some of us still sometimes are - http://www.news.com.au/national/mauritz-mo-pieterse-dies-of-thirst-and-heat-exhaustion-on-10km-walk-after-car-bogged-in-extreme-temperatures/story-fndo4ckr-1226512128827 . Nature will not simply 'give you water' as a perpetual right to live, that's just what you're used to in the first world, where it had to be planned and earned for our longevity benefit, as fluoride is being now.

And yes, evolution shaped mammals to be good at recognising that they would benefit from acquiring water, but it didn't shape us for diagnosing and treating cancers within ourselves, or not eating too much fat, or managing diabetes or eyesight, or protecting our teeth, or living past our 20s, or a million other things where we have improved upon our biological capabilities and instincts. The naturalistic fallacy is well known for a reason.
06:06pm 13/12/12 Permalink
copuis
Brisbane, Queensland
3511 posts
.Ozone is a mixture of many gasses. Fail troll.


sorry scooter, ozone is three oxygen atoms, nothing else, zip nil narda
basic science fail

(holy s*** tho, what the f*** do you think ozone was made from,)
07:24pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5505 posts
Hello, the medical community developed this amazing technique called quarantine


A technique that is useful to the medical community sure, but it's not medication.
07:59pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6991 posts
A technique that is useful to the medical community sure, but it's not medication.

I just said that, because it's "a medical solution not taken orally, so is not a drug/medicine/chemical like water/iodine/fluorine/glucose/oxygen/proteins/etc".

So what exactly is your point?
08:24pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Insom
Canada
4163 posts
tldr, everyone agrees fluoride is great right
08:37pm 13/12/12 Permalink
loutl
Brisbane, Queensland
286 posts
Don't worry fpot, nerf has made even more of an idiot of himself in this thread than he normally does. I wonder if you'll accuse him of frothing any time soon?
09:31pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5506 posts
So what exactly is your point?

My point is that access to clean drinking water, clean air and quarantine practices aren't medications, they're simply hygiene.
09:35pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6992 posts
My point is that access to clean drinking water, clean air and quarantine practices aren't medications, they're simply hygiene.

Access to water is for hygiene? For washing maybe. If we lost that water, we wouldn't simply become less hygienic, our population would collapse. Water is a very useful chemical drug which we benefit from to prevent our health deteriorating extremely rapidly - it's a resource that we, like all former sea creatures, benefit from pumping through our bodies regularly. It's not simply a matter of hygiene any more than oxygen is. You have no normal/'natural'/default guarantee to having water to drink to stay healthy in this way, it's provided as a newly invented mass medication which has made our modern civilization become and stay uniquely healthy. Like Fluoride.

Your argument could just as easily be that "Fluoride is just for dental hygiene", if we were adding water to our publicly available fluoride so that the population would benefit from better hydration, if the chance order of things had been reversed.

Don't worry fpot, nerf has made even more of an idiot of himself in this thread than he normally does. I wonder if you'll accuse him of frothing any time soon?

Every time that you gain the disapproval of an impossibly smug anti-science quack like loutl, you know you're doing something right.

So let me get this straight loutl, we're extending the science conspiracy list to Climate Change, Vaccines, and Fluoride? I see a pattern... How do you feel about evolution? :P
09:42pm 13/12/12 Permalink
loutl
Brisbane, Queensland
287 posts
Well, I haven't said one word about flouride and my daughter has so far had all of her scheduled vaccinations, but for sure you're right, there's no way I came from a monkey.

(the idea that we and our children would be better off leaving all the carbon in ground is still fantasy though)
10:35pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6993 posts
And yet the vaccine thread is full of you spreading hysteria about vaccines killing children, so I'm going to presume that there was another parent involved in vaccinations. ;)

but for sure you're right, there's no way I came from a monkey.

Who said that anybody except monkeys came from monkeys? Being humans by definition means that you are an ape and come from apes, it's a statistical reality that your DNA fits snugly in the great ape family by regular classification of genetic similarity. If you asked a computer to categorize your DNA, it would say: "The same as all the other Apes with minor variations".

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/Data/2012_3_23/DNA-Analysis-Kamilah-the-Gorilla-May-be-Your-Sister/DNA-Barcode-Gorilla_687.jpg
11:12pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Captain Lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
4664 posts
where you're so used to water access being near-freely available - as is new in human history - that you simply see it as an inherent right that will always be there for you, you don't recognise that it's something that had to be built and earned and isn't guaranteed during one's time on Earth, it's a public mass medication,


er, water has been near-freely available since before we climbed out of the ocean. (before that, freely available)

are drinking out of water wells mass medication? someone had to put effort into drilling into the ground to provide it to mass amount of people. how is that different?
11:40pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6994 posts
er, water has been near-freely available since before we climbed out of the ocean.

Go to the plains of east Africa, and go and find decent drinking water, without technology. Ensure that you're competing with predators and herds as their populations would have been before humans conquered the planet. There's probably somebody waiting to discuss your health in this awesome pre-technological utopia.

Mass availability of clean water is mass medication. This isn't a natural state, it's an awesomely improved state.

are drinking out of water wells mass medication? someone had to put effort into drilling into the ground to provide it to mass amount of people. how is that different?

Of course it is, if somebody does it for a mass of people. The same as growing or harvesting any other ingestible material for helping humans live longer and healthier.
11:47pm 13/12/12 Permalink
deadlyf
Queensland
2882 posts
Nerf is pro homeopathy.
11:56pm 13/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6995 posts
Nerf is pro homeopathy.

No I'm not?
12:19am 14/12/12 Permalink
loutl
Brisbane, Queensland
288 posts
And yet the vaccine thread is full of you spreading hysteria about vaccines killing children, so I'm going to presume that there was another parent involved in vaccinations. ;)
It is no surprise to me that you didn't understand my point at all. You may have escaped the Catholic Church but you are still ruled by Dogma and you don't even see it.

Who said that anybody except monkeys came from monkeys? Being humans by definition means that you are an ape and come from apes, it's a statistical reality that your DNA fits snugly in the great ape family by regular classification of genetic similarity. If you asked a computer to categorize your DNA, it would say: "The same as all the other Apes with minor variations".
Wow, that one flew right over your head didn't it? 8)

At least you don't sound as brain dead as you did when you were arguing so persuasively that water and air are drugs. It does explain why everyone takes you so seriously! ,_,
06:50am 14/12/12 Permalink
Spook
Brisbane, Queensland
34746 posts
nerf is off his medications (but may be drinking water from the tap still)
08:10am 14/12/12 Permalink
taggs
6058 posts
The same as growing or harvesting any other ingestible material for helping humans live longer and healthier.


What?..

By this definition wouldn't agriculture (e.g. growing rice) be a form of mass medication?..

I wonder if a doctor would agree with your definitions.
08:30am 14/12/12 Permalink
ravn0s
Brisbane, Queensland
16360 posts
Nerf is pro homeopathy.


haha i was thinking the same thing with his whole water = medicine.
09:21am 14/12/12 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10588 posts
The LNP also would prefer people don't have their own water tanks. Or rather, they want councils to not be able to tell you that you need one. About 500 water tank industry jobs are at risk.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-government-to-scrap-green-home-laws-20121214-2bedx.html

The LNP also hates your gas/solar hot water.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2012/03/26/1226310/029604-campbell-newman-shows-off-his-dog-bite-march-26.jpg

last edited by thermite at 14:42:34 14/Dec/12
02:39pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
9848 posts
Ozone is a mixture of many gasses. Fail troll.


lol ozone is pure oxygen.
03:22pm 14/12/12 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
10589 posts
Let me be the magical elf and point out that ozone may refer to the chemical O3 or the ozone layer which contains mostly chemicals other than ozone.

Also oxygen is indeed toxic and was responsible for the Oxygen holocaust which killed most life forms on earth. But if it wasn't for that, we may never have evolved. I say bring on the flouride and the carbon! FOR THE FUTURE
03:33pm 14/12/12 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
3701 posts
Ok can some give me a Haiku summary of this thread so I don't have to read it all.

thx
03:44pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6996 posts
What?..By this definition wouldn't agriculture (e.g. growing rice) be a form of mass medication?.. I wonder if a doctor would agree with your definitions.

Not if it's private enterprise. An intravenous drip would be considered medication surely.

The main point was always that we did not have mass clean water at any point in history until recently, it was a mass health move against many medical problems, the same as fluoride is as a move against tooth decay. People who argue against fluoride on that basis have no point to make unless they also argue against mass clean water which was done for our health.

Anything which you put into you is a chemical/drug/whatever, people trying to create fear around something being a 'chemical' have to also argue against H2O and O2, both of which are toxic at their toxic doses.
03:48pm 14/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19342 posts
Equating hygiene measures to mass medication... you have lost the plot.

Collecting rubbish and removing bird crap from our drinking water, is nothing like injecting fluoride into our water for the sole reason that it reduces tooth decay.

If you cannot see that distinction... ah f*** it.
04:10pm 14/12/12 Permalink
taggs
6059 posts
are drinking out of water wells mass medication? someone had to put effort into drilling into the ground to provide it to mass amount of people. how is that different?


Of course it is, if somebody does it for a mass of people. The same as growing or harvesting any other ingestible material for helping humans live longer and healthier.


...

What?..By this definition wouldn't agriculture (e.g. growing rice) be a form of mass medication?.. I wonder if a doctor would agree with your definitions.


Not if it's private enterprise.


I'm even more confused than before.

Earlier, you said that wells providing drinking water was a form of mass medication. You also said that growing or harvesting any ingestible material for the purpose of helping humans live longer and heathier was a form of mass medication.

Now you are saying that this doesn't hold if it is a result of private enterprise?..

Surely a large number of wells around the world have been provided by private enterprise. Does this mean that only the wells that were a result of state spending are to be considered mass medication? Does this mean that state funded agriculture is mass medication whereas private agriculture isn't?

Again, I wonder what someone with actual medical training would say about your definitions.
04:29pm 14/12/12 Permalink
reload!
Brisbane, Queensland
7020 posts
high fructose corn/cough syrup
04:31pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5507 posts
Ok can some give me a Haiku summary of this thread so I don't have to read it all.


Libs say flouride's bad
Nerf starts well then digs a hole
One more thread derailed
04:50pm 14/12/12 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2784 posts
entertains like a Vash thread
05:08pm 14/12/12 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1335 posts
Libs say flouride's bad
Nerf starts well then digs a hole
One more thread derailed



slow clap

bravo!
05:21pm 14/12/12 Permalink
crazymorton
Brisbane, Queensland
3703 posts
Nice work Dazhel :-)
05:47pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6997 posts
Earlier, you said that wells providing drinking water was a form of mass medication. You also said that growing or harvesting any ingestible material for the purpose of helping humans live longer and heathier was a form of mass medication.

Now you are saying that this doesn't hold if it is a result of private enterprise?...

How can it be government mass medication if it's private enterprise? People are (for some f***ed up reason) complaining that the government is providing mass medication against tooth decay, yet don't complain about the government providing mass medication against dehydration and water borne disease and other formerly-prevalent conditions when people had to get water themselves, just like how we had to, until recently, get fluoride ourselves if we wanted to address those health concerns.

If you cannot see that distinction... ah f*** it.

You are purposefully playing dumb at this point, ignoring that I've said like 8 times now that it's about providing any water in the first place, not only about clean water.

Providing mass public drinking water in the first place - which you otherwise wouldn't have - is mass medication. They're not cleaning water that you would have either way, they're providing the public with water in the first place as a mass health move, moving away from the situation that we used to be in of not everybody having it.

I don't know why I bother trying to speak sense and consistency to those who have unfortunately justified the birth of the word 'libtards'. If you scientifically illiterates can't get it through your heads that both water and fluoride are chemicals used to realise human health outcomes, now provided by the government and getting effective results, then I feel that we need better science education in this country.
06:12pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
9849 posts
Clean water may have been a medical (as well as engineering and civil) advance, but it's not medication.

Removing someones about to explode appendix is also not medication.

Medication is "A substance used for medical treatment"
So flouride is mass medication. Chlorine not really. It treats the water not the human drinking it.
06:20pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6998 posts
Medication is "A substance used for medical treatment"

Yes? And how does that not apply to water? We ingest it and use it to treat dehydration, and thankfully live in a time where we can get used to being spoiled on it and living much longer than people previously could, to the point that we've just started thinking of it as "something that people have all their lives, it's special". It doesn't change what its form is, nor how it's taken, nor its mechanisms, nor that it was provided en masse by the government to improve the civilization's health, just as anything else could be.

Putting H2O into your body = chemical drug.
Putting F- into your body = chemical drug.
Putting caffeine into your body = chemical drug.

All of these things are chemicals, have toxic doses, and are ingested, with effects on the body. There's no special pleading fallacies allowed.

If the government provided mass alcohol to treat anxiety, that would be mass medication, just the same as mass H2O is. We might get used to it, and after enough generations come to think of it as "just what we have, it's special", but it wouldn't change its form or mechanism, nor that it's no different than providing mass water or mass fluoride. (it wouldn't however have any scientific soundness)
06:23pm 14/12/12 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2785 posts
could air conditioning by this same rationale also be considered medication? it treats a symptom (heat stress) and probably uses some kind of chemical on the input to effect the output but since it doesn't physically change the output because it's a passive contact maybe not? sure does feel better than ambient temperature and humidity though? but is it medicated air? weird.
08:09pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
6999 posts
Well you don't ingest 'air conditioning' as a chemical any more than you ingest a centrifuge (though there may well be a few a few kids or elderly people out there with respiratory problems who rely on treated air), whereas water is absolutely positively empirically a toxic-at-certain-levels chemical ingested for human health, which we've now come to just expect as an always-present substance in our life provided by the government, done to improve the public health, whereas it used to be a private enterprise to obtain, the same as fluoride until recently, which has been beneficial to public health to provide for free to the masses.

If the government provides mass washing water, it's not mass medication. If the government provides mass drinking water, it's mass medication. If there's a protein shortage, and the government provides mass protein pills, then it's mass medication.
08:37pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Obes
Brisbane, Queensland
9850 posts
Yes? And how does that not apply to water?

Water is water.
Clean or not it predates the concept of medical.
09:01pm 14/12/12 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2786 posts
except this water which is life sustaining (taken for granted in the first world economies) and provided by and maintained to a standard by the government at some level is not exactly as 'free' as you are making it out to be. land owners sure do know about paying rates on services.

maybe you're a renter and it's factored into the weekly cost of living so you never hear much about it?

didn't you get a 4 minute hourglass shower timer with a suction cup from the Bligh gubberment?


09:05pm 14/12/12 Permalink
eski
Perth, Western Australia
1336 posts
lol, water is a food, its not a drug.
09:09pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7000 posts
Water is water.

Special pleading.

Clean or not

I said so many times that it wasn't about clean, it was about providing.

it predates the concept of medical.

The atom F pre-dates the molecule H2O, it was forged during the big bang, and both pre-date brains even capable of conceptualising the label 'medical', yet biology used them to its benefit for billions of years without any concepts required. Cultural concepts of chemicals don't change whether something does a task, nor what it's made of.

Biology doesn't function on whether a brain conceptualises the value of chemicals for health, life just has what works for it at a given time. Algae doesn't thrive on water because of some concept that it has about it, it does because it's beneficial for its health, conditionally, as is water and fluoride for mammals. You're really just saying "plentiful water is a familiar beneficial chemical provided to me so it's ok, plentiful fluoride for my health is not familiar to me in this way, it doesn't have a cultural history and the benefits aren't seen as quickly."

except this water which is life sustaining (taken for granted in the first world economies) and provided by and maintained to a standard by the government at some level is not exactly as 'free' as you are making it out to be. land owners sure do know about paying rates on services.

Exactly, this mass supply of water is no more 'the natural state' of things than mass supply of fluoride, it's just pre-established and familiar. We didn't always just "have water" in our lives. People used to suffer and their health would decay for not having access to it, and then the government made it a universally delivered chemical. Same with fluoride for tooth decay.

Water and fluoride both have major understood health benefits, and could both be left up to private endeavours to acquire. Nobody is forcing you to take the government supply of these chemicals, but it would be stupid and ill-informed not to.

lol, water is a food, its not a drug.

Caffeine, glucose, and cocoa are both foods and drugs, as is essentially everything consumed. You put chemicals into you for your health, be it Oxygen or Fluoride or H2O. Some have short term benefits (O2) for your survival, some have long term benefits (I), some have even longer term benefits (F-). Foods and Drugs are basically indistinguishable, separated by language but not by real features, thus why you get things like the american 'Food and Drug Administration' (FDA).
09:27pm 14/12/12 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2787 posts
the same could be said for the telecoms/data industry commodification over the last 10 or 15 years, but thats probably been driven more by process efficiency and the rise of China as a manufacturing power house

are there still the same unknown health concerns because of the newness over the radio transmitters used in gadgets having possible correlations to causing various types of cancers or was that if a person were subjected to exposure for longer than would be considered normal and therefore safe?

I dunno, I suppose unless it affects you directly you wouldn't go looking for some correlation of causation.

So what's the big idea? Has
the cost of flouride gone up that the LNP want to put the cost of preventative dental back on the person?

What if you brush your teeth and drink flouridiated water? Double whammy of IQ losses in the eugenics stats tally?



10:02pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7001 posts
What if you brush your teeth and drink flouridiated water? Double whammy of IQ losses in the eugenics stats tally?

From the sounds of things, for the amount of fluoride contained in our water, you'd die from a toxic water dose before reaching a toxic fluoride dose. Swallowing toothpaste would probably increase your risks though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity
http://www.fluoridedebate.com/question21.html

"A survey of X-rays from 170,000 people in Texas and Oklahoma whose drinking water had naturally occurring fluoride levels of 4 to 8 ppm revealed only 23 cases of osteosclerosis and no cases of skeletal fluorosis."
I think that in Australia, it's something like .9 to 1.4 ppm.
10:13pm 14/12/12 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
19346 posts
water is medication. this guy.... pffft
11:40pm 14/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7002 posts
water is medication. this guy.... pffft

I know that you have a particular aversion to thinking, and prefer to communicate in political party stock phrases and/or sneering, but try to rationally justify your special pleading for why it is not.

Water is a chemical food/drug (the difference is ever shifting cultural definitions, not physically or functionally empirical).
Water is taken orally.
Water is toxic at specific doses.
Water is beneficial to mammal health. Those that get more can more plausibly live longer.

So used to being spoiled on our modern plentiful water, that you simply think of it as something that all life gets just by virtue of existing, something 'special' above all other chemicals and drugs which you put into your body. Water is an ingested health chemical like any other, and it wasn't until recently that the masses got it provided to them by the government for mass health.

Just as a diabetic must be given the medication insulin to survive, humans must be given the medication of water to survive. These are both medications against ill health and death.
11:47pm 14/12/12 Permalink
DeadlyDav0
Brisbane, Queensland
3246 posts
Only read page 1 + 2, some good lols.

Thanks to that person that said the iodine issue is cause its no longer used to clean milk processing. Didnt know the reason behind the issue.

we are consuming LESS sugar than 50 years ago, so clearly it isn't all this candy and softdrink like people claim that is the issue,

I wouldnt be surprised if thats because 50yrs ago they only had sucrose where as we now have glucose syrup solids, HCFS and all the other types of sugar that arent technically 'sucrose'.

Dunno about water being a medicine though however my google search came back with "The science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery)." Suppose it makes sense.
12:19am 15/12/12 Permalink
trillion
Brisbane, Queensland
2788 posts
I think you're delivering your view of it via a somewhat wild tangent compared to how most people will give any thought to how their drinking water is delivered.

Maybe if you work in a pleasently controlled environment that has an endless supply of chilled filtered Neverfail delivered twice a week, you might give some government credit for that at some time in the progressive advances that science has brought to humanity such foresight was put into public health for your mass medication idea, but maybe it's just because they worked it out that preventative is a bit cheaper and less painful than public dental healthcare schemes.

but is it mass medication in the same way an oktoberfest is mass social lubrication? 7 out of 10 qgl'ers in this thread seem to disagree
12:23am 15/12/12 Permalink
DeadlyDav0
Brisbane, Queensland
3248 posts
Didnt really read into nerf's reasons behind water is medicine but if vitamin c prevents scurvy, and is thus a medicine, then water preventing dehydration should be the same thing? Its just that food (and water) is so common that i dont think many people would consider something so daily and trivial to be medicine compared to drugs that i guess most people would feel is more appropriate.

Water taken orally doesnt mean s*** though. Intravenous, rectal or whatever method of application for whatever appropriate medicine is still legit medicine.
12:31am 15/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7003 posts
Didnt really read into nerf's reasons behind water is medicine but if vitamin c prevents scurvy, and is thus a medicine, then water preventing dehydration should be the same thing? Its just that food (and water) is so common that i dont think many people would consider something so daily and trivial to be medicine compared to drugs that i guess most people would feel is more appropriate. Water taken orally doesnt mean s*** though. Intravenous, rectal or whatever method of application for whatever appropriate medicine is still legit medicine.

Yep exactly, but keep in mind that say for a diabetic, insulin shots are needed just as commonly for immediate health as drinking water is for regular humans (maybe even needed more frequently), but it never stops being medicine just because it's common.

If you ingest/inject something regularly for your health, then it is medicine. Government mass provision of water, for allowing everybody to deal with hydration health without resorting to private enterprise, is in principle the same thing as government mass provision of fluoride - except fluoride is much cheaper for them to do.
12:55am 15/12/12 Permalink
taggs
6060 posts
If you ingest/inject something regularly for your health, then it is medicine.


Never realised breakfast was medicine.
03:36am 15/12/12 Permalink
Nerf Lord
Brisbane, Queensland
7004 posts
Never realised breakfast was medicine.

And so clearly you haven't thought chemistry and mortality through. ;)

Write a computer classifier to distinguish between medicine and food based on some meaningful physical property or effect on the human body, and not some arbitrary stubborn refusal to admit that these two things are exactly the same, and see how easy it is. ;) Is a diabetic's regulated sugar intake a matter of taking drugs or eating food? What about a non-diabetic who needs the same thing but can process it differently to go slightly longer?
06:22am 15/12/12 Permalink
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