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Best web developer's site ever
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
7966 posts

You are not a web designer.
I am the web designer.


From this guy's website: http://www.alittlebitofsomething.co.uk/

I often get asked 'how much does a website cost' some people would respond 'how long is a piece of string' but I don't, because that's a s*** expression.


Here are some more quotes:

All I need from you is a brief. And no the logo doesn't need to be bigger... pipe down and have a biscuit, leave this to me.


Hahaha

I don't have a fax machine anymore, I threw it out in 1991 along with my Joe Bloggs jeans and a double cassette album called Deep Heat.
11:09am 25/07/11 Permalink
system
Internet
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11:09am 25/07/11 Permalink
Nitro
Gold Coast, Queensland
2030 posts
hahaha this is brilliant
11:32am 25/07/11 Permalink
taggs
5366 posts
haha, that was great
11:36am 25/07/11 Permalink
RockitMan
Brisbane, Queensland
6107 posts
I immediately want to hire this guy and I don't even need a website.
11:36am 25/07/11 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
34030 posts
Nitro, I sent you an email months ago about web development and you never responded :(
11:41am 25/07/11 Permalink
3dee
Brisbane, Queensland
6597 posts
I think this is probably the best part of it:
You are not a web designer.
I am the web designer.

So god damn true.
11:43am 25/07/11 Permalink
teq
Brisbane, Queensland
11374 posts
he's so edgy man, MAN
12:24pm 25/07/11 Permalink
infi
Brisbane, Queensland
17476 posts
that is a great intro page for idiot business owners who have no idea about web design.
12:46pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
772 posts
Yeah just who I would want to spend my money with...a condescending nerd. Of course in any professional service field the client is going to know very little but there's no need to treat them like they're idiots. I understand it would be frustrating having the client wanting to dictate the end result but at the end of the day you're being paid to do what the client wants.

If clients wanting things their way and changing specs is a big gripe for you then you're not charging enough.

I suppose there would be enough people out there who don't value professionalism to hire this guy though.
01:48pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
773 posts
that is a great intro page for idiot business owners who have no idea about web design
Not knowing about web design doesn't make you an idiot. If anything it makes you cooler. Anyway I gotto get back to my programming :)
01:50pm 25/07/11 Permalink
TicMan
Melbourne, Victoria
7167 posts
I bet hoggy wish he had a page like that after dealing with me for 6 months.
01:52pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
10637 posts
Yep, awesome site. Love it.

I am a male human. For over 12 years I have designed websites. Prior to that I was a shepherd on a remote island in the pacific. I wasn't. I was a recruitment consultant, people spat at me in the streets and shouted 'you're nearly as bad as an estate agent you knob'.

Not knowing about web design doesn't make you an idiot. If anything it makes you cooler.

Couldn't disagree with the statement more.

Knowing a little bit about everything is what gets you places.
01:55pm 25/07/11 Permalink
trog
AGN Admin
Brisbane, Queensland
34032 posts
Pretty cool. The bit Pinky pasted reminded me of this, which I'm sure everyone has seen: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
02:04pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
3640 posts
I understand it would be frustrating having the client wanting to dictate the end result but at the end of the day you're being paid to do what the client wants.


I've never understood paying good dollars to hire a website designer and then second guessing everything they create for you, forcing them to produce crap. By all means explain what you're after in the brief, but too much back and forth on the trivial things shows a lack of respect for the time and effort it takes to understand the field.

Imagine that in the medical profession:
Doctor: "I'm afraid it's cancer, my recommendation is surgery followed by aggressive radiotherapy"
Patient: "Can't we just rub some cream on it doc? I've looked at your radiation dosage too - maybe we should halve that because I don't like feeling nauseous and want to reduce the amount of time I spend vomiting."
02:05pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10207 posts
I bet hoggy wish he had a page like that after dealing with me for 6 months.

Sif. You're easier than match fixer's mum.

I don't get the angst to be honest (although its amusing no doubt, sometimes people really have no clue).

If someone wants to throw down money for us to build a big turd we'll build it (and document our advice on the matter). I won't stick our name on it but its the client's loss if they think they know how things should roll when they are in fact wrong :)

The ONLY thing that matters is if you are being compensated for your time and effort, and in doing so have built what the client asked for. I'm much, much more aggravated by clients who waste our time on multiple quotes and do not proceed, or try to swing in lots of out of scope s***.

Dazhel: people second guess the medicos all the time. Second opinion?
02:05pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
3641 posts
Sure, a second opinion from another doctor.
They don't get a second opinion from a niece that just finished the St Johns First Aid refresher course.
02:13pm 25/07/11 Permalink
SwissCM
Gold Coast, Queensland
112 posts
The ONLY thing that matters is if you are being compensated for your time and effort, and in doing so have built what the client asked for. I'm much, much more aggravated by clients who waste our time on multiple quotes and do not proceed, or try to swing in lots of out of scope s***.

That is the kind of attitude that leads to mediocre websites.
02:24pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
774 posts
Couldn't disagree with the statement more.

So you think that a business owner who doesn't know about web design is an idiot?

I've never understood paying good dollars to hire a website designer and then second guessing everything they create for you, forcing them to produce crap. By all means explain what you're after in the brief, but too much back and forth on the trivial things shows a lack of respect for the time and effort it takes to understand the field.

Imagine that in the medical profession:
Doctor: "I'm afraid it's cancer, my recommendation is surgery followed by aggressive radiotherapy"
Patient: "Can't we just rub some cream on it doc? I've looked at your radiation dosage too - maybe we should halve that because I don't like feeling nauseous and want to reduce the amount of time I spend vomiting."

Yeah I understand the guys frustration it is the fact that he is treating his potential clients like they're idiots that I have a problem with.

If you think about it from the clients perspective though - what if they've spent 70 hours per week for years building the business from scratch and they are used to making the decisions themselves. Then the web designer presents them with something that to them looks s***. Surely you could understand the client having the urge to make changes. It probably isn't the wisest thing to make changes but just like the web developer gets personally frustrated by clients wanting to overide the creative elements the client probably gets peronally frustrated by the web developer presenting a site that isn't as beautiful as the client had imagined.

I do realise that it isn't logical to want to "help" do the design yourself but when people have a huge amount personally invested in something logic isn't always the winner.
02:26pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10208 posts
That is the kind of attitude that leads to mediocre websites.

Based on what, exactly?
Sure, a second opinion from another doctor.
They don't get a second opinion from a niece that just finished the St Johns First Aid refresher course.

So what about all the people who go to naturopaths and chiros and f*****g homeopaths and crystal faith healers?
02:28pm 25/07/11 Permalink
lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
3749 posts
but at the end of the day you're being paid to do what the client wants.

The problem is, most clients think they know what they want. if clients knew what they wanted 95%* of my problems wouldn't exist today.

*the other 5% is because a certain programmer likes to copy / paste code EVERYWHERE. why spend half an hour writing out 10 lines of code when you can copy and paste 1000 lines of code? then someone (me) has to fix the same issue in about 15 different locations. none of which are identified by our almost non existent QA / Designer staff member. (our designer doubles as quality assurance... which means the GUI is very well QAed, but that's about it).

/rant.
02:31pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
775 posts
The ONLY thing that matters is if you are being compensated for your time and effort, and in doing so have built what the client asked for. I'm much, much more aggravated by clients who waste our time on multiple quotes and do not proceed, or try to swing in lots of out of scope s***.

That is the kind of attitude that leads to mediocre websites.

Unfortunately that attitude is a reality of doing business. Clients sometimes want to do things their way. If you advise them you think there is a better way and they still insist on their way then their way it is. Would your solution be to fire the client if they don't want to do it your way?
02:32pm 25/07/11 Permalink
lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
3750 posts
So what about all the people who go to naturopaths and chiros and f*****g homeopaths and crystal faith healers?
are you some how suggesting that those people AREN'T IDIOTS?
02:33pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10210 posts
The problem is, most clients think they know what they want. if clients knew what they wanted 95%* of my problems wouldn't exist today.

You misunderstand me. You present your best case, but ultimately the Executive (thanks Prince2!) makes the call. You document the advice you gave and do as you are told, or if you have the freedom to pick and choose you tell the client that you can't or won't help them.

When / if it goes arse up you charge them to do it the way you said to do it in the first place, and charge accordingly.

Being all super rangry about it won't help anything.
are you some how suggesting that those people AREN'T IDIOTS?

No, I'm suggesting that they act contrary to expert advice.
02:35pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
776 posts
The problem is, most clients think they know what they want. if clients knew what they wanted 95%* of my problems wouldn't exist today.

*the other 5% is because a certain programmer likes to copy / paste code EVERYWHERE. why spend half an hour writing out 10 lines of code when you can copy and paste 1000 lines of code? then someone (me) has to fix the same issue in about 15 different locations. none of which are identified by our almost non existent QA / Designer staff member. (our designer doubles as quality assurance... which means the GUI is very well QAed, but that's about it).

/rant.

Yeah it's supremely frustrating no doubt about it. I've spent the last few days redoing s*** over and over again because the client keeps changing their mind but that is just how business works. As a professional you have to deal with the frustration (and the way I do that is by making sure I'm compensated for my time - the extra time is just an extra hidden cost of achieving the end result - with 99% of jobs it is inevitable). Then I get paid hourly so this is all easy for me to say :)
02:38pm 25/07/11 Permalink
lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
3751 posts
Unfortunately that attitude is a reality of doing business. Clients sometimes want to do things their way. If you advise them you think there is a better way and they still insist on their way then their way it is. Would your solution be to fire the client if they don't want to do it your way?


well, it comes down to what you're willing to whore yourself out for.

some prostitutes will whore themselves out to anyone to do anything,
some prostitutes will whore themselves out to respectable clients,
my wife only whores herself out to me if we do it her way... :(.

if you can't handle clients who don't understand design or ergonomics yet wants to be the designer with "your help" then don't whore yourself out to them?
02:39pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
777 posts
if you can't handle clients who don't understand design or ergonomics yet wants to be the designer with "your help" then don't whore yourself out to them?
But I can handle those clients.

And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a web dev company owner who supported his or her staff's right to choose which clients to accept based on how frustrating they think the client will be.

Hoggy do you get your staff to sit around a table and vote on whether to accept a job or not? :)
02:50pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10211 posts
But I can handle those clients.

And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a web dev company owner who supported his or her staff's right to choose which clients to accept based on how frustrating they think the client will be.

Hoggy do you get your staff to sit around a table and vote on whether to accept a job or not? :)

Of course not haha!

Typically I make a judgement call on the amount of effort required to get the job done and we throw down a quote.

If the client accepts it and is a bit difficult I then spend the next few weeks explaining to my staff over and over that making silly tweaks or other making minor amendments is covered in the quote explicit or hidden contingency. I will know if we are in danger of a blow out and deal with it.

Its covered in the quote.

Yes, its annoying.

Please do it.
02:56pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
3642 posts
So what about all the people who go to naturopaths and chiros and f*****g homeopaths and crystal faith healers?


The point was that most people have enough respect for doctors not to argue with what treatment is prescribed. They know their stuff so you choose from the recommended options or you bugger off. This web designer is confident enough in their skills to set similar expectations.

Most of the list you've given aren't in the medical profession (chiro maybe, barely). But going from an oncologist to a chiropractor for a second opinion? Good luck. :P
03:16pm 25/07/11 Permalink
lateral
Brisbane, Queensland
3752 posts
And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a web dev company owner who supported his or her staff's right to choose which clients to accept based on how frustrating they think the client will be.
er, in that case its up to your boss to make that decision for you isn't it? when you have a pimp you don't get to decide the clients.

Hoggy do you get your staff to sit around a table and vote on whether to accept a job or not? :)
I bet hoggy might find a staff shortage if EVERY client was like the one mentioned above.

hell, he might find that all his staff have sat around the table and voted on weather to accept anymore jobs without him if he isn't offering some sort of job fulfillment.
03:19pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
778 posts
er, in that case its up to your boss to make that decision for you isn't it? when you have a pimp you don't get to decide the clients
Do you think a responsible business owner should reject a client because he thinks the client might change requirements/design features hence frustrating the staff?

If the staff couldn't handle that frustration then I wouldn't want them working for me.
03:38pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
4682 posts
Not because the client might change requirements/design features, no.

Because the Client is an a******* that will demand ludicrious inclusions and be a snarky prick to the staff, Yes.
03:42pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10212 posts
Not because the client might change requirements/design features, no.

Because the Client is an a******* that will demand ludicrious inclusions and be a snarky prick to the staff, Yes.

Been in business for a few years now, have only met one such creature.

Its vanishingly rare, so long as you appropriately position yourself in the market. Most of these sorts of contracts don't get past the quote stage.
I bet hoggy might find a staff shortage if EVERY client was like the one mentioned above.

But they're not, so ... ?
hell, he might find that all his staff have sat around the table and voted on weather to accept anymore jobs without him if he isn't offering some sort of job fulfillment.

I have no idea what this sentence means, basically from start to finish.
Most of the list you've given aren't in the medical profession (chiro maybe, barely). But going from an oncologist to a chiropractor for a second opinion? Good luck. :P

That's just a silly example. The point is that a huge swathe of the community thinks they know better than the medical profession. I s*** you not, we see it on this forum all the time. One of the key complaints about being a doctor is the self-diagnosis that patients take on themselves.

Some people just think they know everything.
03:52pm 25/07/11 Permalink
greazy
Brisbane, Queensland
4846 posts
haha you're a very good example of that type of person hogfather.
03:55pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10214 posts
haha you're a very good example of that type of person hogfather.

Errr ... I'm the first person to admit when I'm wrong.

But I do reckon I can claim some expertise in running a web dev company and speak with a little authority on the subject, yeh.
03:57pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
779 posts
Because the Client is an a******* that will demand ludicrious inclusions and be a snarky prick to the staff, Yes.
The beauty of being a staff member is that it's not your job to worry about ludicrious demands. If the scope is clearly defined before the job starts and key decisions and advice along the way are documented then the client will have to pay a ludicrious supplement if they want their demands met.

In terms of clients being snarky pricks on a personal level I think that was discussed on QGL about 6 months ago. I guess this is a bit of a grey area - I tend to treat people with the same amount of respect that they treat me. That being said whilst I wouldn't expect staff to tolerate abuse from a client I also wouldn't expect them to deal with the problem themselves - they should speak to management about the problem.
03:59pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Scooter
Brisbane, Queensland
4684 posts
In that example though, you are the manager, who is in the position to tell the client to piss off. After your staff have come to you with (verified, serious) concerns.

Hoggy, in my game I have met 2 people like that, in 6 years... I too would say they are very rare.
04:07pm 25/07/11 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
7968 posts
The beauty of being a staff member is that it's not your job to worry about ludicrious demands. If the scope is clearly defined before the job starts and key decisions and advice along the way are documented then the client will have to pay a ludicrious supplement if they want their demands met.


Assuming that the vacuum cleaner salesman that runs the web company and sells every site at a loss has put a system in place where the client gets charged for asking for more stuff.... oh wait they haven't, they're too busy giving themselves a pat on the back for making a $2000 sale on something that will take 6 months and 5 guys to build, and organising fund raising dinners for their tax dodge charity.
04:28pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
780 posts
Assuming that the vacuum cleaner salesman that runs the web company and sells every site at a loss has put a system in place where the client gets charged for asking for more stuff.... oh wait they haven't, they're too busy giving themselves a pat on the back for making a $2000 sale on something that will take 6 months and 5 guys to build, and organising fund raising dinners for their tax dodge charity.
I'm talking about well run businesses. Anyone who works for a business like you described needs to get better at whatever they do and work for a company not run by retards.
04:43pm 25/07/11 Permalink
thermite
Brisbane, Queensland
7969 posts
heh yeah don't mind me, just random rage about an old job
05:25pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Coochie
Brisbane, Queensland
781 posts
ha is that actually a real life example? Might be fun working for them just for the schenanigans?
05:31pm 25/07/11 Permalink
mooby
Brisbane, Queensland
6004 posts
lol. a quote from a current client "i want it to look exactly like this, but like apple, but with blue text..."
07:49pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Whoop
Brisbane, Queensland
18863 posts


Imagine that in the medical profession:
Doctor: "I'm afraid it's cancer, my recommendation is surgery followed by aggressive radiotherapy"
Patient: "Can't we just rub some cream on it doc? I've looked at your radiation dosage too - maybe we should halve that because I don't like feeling nauseous and want to reduce the amount of time I spend vomiting."

That was pretty much my dad

Doctor: don't eat this, don't eat that, you'll end up having a heart attack
him: *had a heart attack and died*

oh well, I guess that taught him, eh.

Or people who come into work & say "all it needs is just a little bend here"
I feel like saying well if that's all it needs, there's the bender, there's the welder. Knock yourself out.

5 hours later and you've only just managed to pull all the protective covering off

"why the hell do you charge so much for just a little bend?"

forehead -> wall
11:02pm 25/07/11 Permalink
Superform
Netherlands
6800 posts
he makes great websites?

http://www.roguetraderfilms.com/

that site is bleeding edge dudes...
11:21pm 25/07/11 Permalink
exo
Melbourne, Victoria
8951 posts
I think that's a logo he did, not the website.
08:41am 26/07/11 Permalink
deeper
Brisbane, Queensland
3797 posts
this thread is officially more shat on than the cadel evans one...
09:22am 26/07/11 Permalink
Hogfather
Cairns, Queensland
10216 posts
At least its managed to stay vaguely on subject.
09:26am 26/07/11 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
3650 posts
he makes great websites?
http://www.roguetraderfilms.com/

that site is bleeding edge dudes...


At least that one has an image.

The other sites seem to be a half and half mix of php and classic asp. :O
09:58am 26/07/11 Permalink
Trixxta
Sydney, New South Wales
29 posts
It's a pretty funny little diatribe hes got there but it comes across as slightly immature. I have been in the web field for about 10 years as well and you are always going to come across people who have unrealistic expectations about technology. It comes with the territory. If people are wasting your time in any business don't get angry just ignore them - its a much more efficient way of dealing with people who are making your job inefficient. Getting upset about it just makes you look childish.
04:51pm 30/07/11 Permalink
Trauma
Melbourne, Victoria
1594 posts
Not knowing about web design doesn't make you an idiot. If anything it makes you cooler. Anyway I gotto get back to my programming :)

You remind me of...

http://1centweb.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/4702b_desprog-diff.jpg
05:09pm 30/07/11 Permalink
webstepa
Melbourne, Victoria
2 posts
it is brilliant
11:36pm 25/12/11 Permalink
Trixxta
Sydney, New South Wales
51 posts
Quite funny but the largest quote price of 3,000 pounds tells me he is maybe getting a little ahead of himself in how awesome he is.

As a business man he shouldn't get frustrated by clients who change their mind all the time, act stupid and don't listen to advice - its a great opportunity to make twice as much money - simply charge by the hour and get paid twice as much for all the extra time involved.

If they are that much of a pain to deal with then just drop them - making a website complaining about stupid clients kinda makes you seem like a bit of an immature kid who thinks he is an artistic genius. Its just the way business works - deal with it and move on (and profit!).
11:02pm 31/01/12 Permalink
arkter
Gold Coast, Queensland
644 posts
Quite funny but the largest quote price of 3,000 pounds tells me he is maybe getting a little ahead of himself in how awesome he is.

As a business man he shouldn't get frustrated by clients who change their mind all the time, act stupid and don't listen to advice - its a great opportunity to make twice as much money - simply charge by the hour and get paid twice as much for all the extra time involved.

If they are that much of a pain to deal with then just drop them - making a website complaining about stupid clients kinda makes you seem like a bit of an immature kid who thinks he is an artistic genius. Its just the way business works - deal with it and move on (and profit!).


I am not convinced you have ever made an internets for money.
08:59pm 22/02/12 Permalink
DeadlyDav0
Brisbane, Queensland
1613 posts
WTF. A december revive, a jan revive, then another revive 3 weeks later. Go ausgamers!
09:58pm 22/02/12 Permalink
Sip
Brisbane, Queensland
495 posts
I don't get people, its not about doing everything the client wants or what the designer wants. Its about what does the client need the site to function and if they have general outline of how they want that to be achieved. The designer then gives them an outline of what they will do, and do these in stages (if its a big project) hopefully with approval points and limited amount of minor changes that may deviate slightly out of the outline.

You quote for your time (and a bit more if you think their will be a lot of minor changes). You hold them to the outline/estimate...seriously not hard. If they really want to step out of the outline then you advise how long this will push the deadline and at what cost, if they accept you amend the invoice.
10:10pm 22/02/12 Permalink
stepan
1 posts
ВЗФ
I do not think it is good way say: look, I am the web designer
03:59pm 10/03/12 Permalink
Khel
Melbourne, Victoria
18431 posts
Whats wrong with cargo pants :(

Edit: Oh, I didn't even realise this was a revived thread. Hand me a towel so I can wipe this egg off my face!
04:10pm 10/03/12 Permalink
maryusdemetry
Sydney, New South Wales
15 posts
the best thread ever!!!!!!!!!
10:34am 16/07/12 Permalink
Dazhel
Gold Coast, Queensland
5074 posts
most revived thread ever
12:18pm 16/07/12 Permalink
Pinky
Melbourne, Victoria
13455 posts
the best thread ever!!!!!!!!!

Must have missed Vash's missus thread.
most revived thread ever

Ain't it what
12:28pm 16/07/12 Permalink
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